March 21, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 9 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Friday, March 21, 1980 10:00 a.m. [The House met at 10 a.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] MR. SPEAKER: Before starting on the Routine for today, it is only fitting and appropriate to express a sincere welcome to the new member for the constituency of Barrhead. May I say to this new member that it is, as he has undoubtedly already experienced or thought, a signal honor to be a member of the parliament of the province of Alberta, this Legislative Assembly, a parlia­ ment with a long, honorable, and excellent tradition.

In welcoming him to join all of my colleagues and me in this Assembly, I express confidence that the honor which has been bestowed on him by his electorate will reflect in this House a pursuit of the highest ideals of this Assembly. [applause] MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of govern­ ment members, may I join with you in our welcome to the new member from the constituency of Barrhead.

He of course is aware that I am very familiar, by way of past history, with that particular constituency, but I am equal­ ly well aware of the fact that in the very short time we have been working with him in caucus — and I'm sure in due course within this Legislative Assembly, he will bring to this Assembly some very thoughtful and contemporary views with regard to his constituency. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my col­ leagues in the official opposition, might I say to the hon. Member for Barrhead, welcome to the Assembly.

We intended to do nothing on purpose to have the hon. member acquire his seat in the House, but the good people of the Barrhead area have made a decision. I say to the hon. member, good luck during the period of time that you are in the Assembly. I suppose I would be less than honest if I were to say that I hope your stay is long. Good luck. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure it would only be fitting, in order to make the discussion today unanimous, if I joined as well.

Having had some opportunity last fall to avoid the result of the by-election, being as unsuccess­ ful as the other opposition parties were, nevertheless I certainly join with other members in the House in wel­ coming the new Member for Barrhead and wishing him the very best of luck and work in the years ahead. head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the response to Question No. 122. MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I would like to file the annual report for 1979 of the Alberta Energy Company Ltd. MR. HARLE: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to file Alberta Cor­ rections Review, commonly known as the Moyer report. MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, I am tabling the response to Motion No. 116, passed by the Legislative Assembly in the 1979 session. At the same time, I would like to file a copy of the appraisal letter, previously referred to in the House, prepared by Mrs. T. Clark. Although Mrs. Clark's letter does not fall within the terms of the motion for a return, I am filing a copy after receiving her consent to do so. MR. McCRAE: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table with the Assembly the manifest of Alberta Government Serv­ ices aircraft with regard to air travel of Executive Council and governmental agencies for the 1979 calendar year. Mr. Speaker, I'd also like to file with the Assembly a copy of a report entitled Economic and Market Analysis of a Multipurpose Sports Facility. And, Mr. Speaker, because of wide public interest, I would also like to table an omnibus Gallup poll survey and the results of that survey. DR. BUCK: We're finally opening up the old ship, eh? AN HON. MEMBER: Always has been, Walt. MR. KING: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to table with the Assembly the 74th annual report of the Department of Education. Hon. members are aware that because it was produced while the House was not sitting, copies have been distributed to all Members of the Legislative Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: I have the honor to table the 13th annual report of the Ombudsman, and the second annual report of the Chief Electoral Officer. This is for the period January 1, 1979 to December 31, 1979. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. KROEGER: Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to introduce to you and to this Assembly the first group of students at this session, led by Mr. Kjearsgaard, from a very special part of the country, specifically the village of Consort. He has 38 students and some adults. I would invite them to stand and receive the recognition of the House. MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasure this morn­ ing to introduce through you to members of the Assem­ bly 20 students from the grades 5 and 6 classes at King Edward school in the constituency of Edmonton Strath- cona, accompanied by their leader and teacher Mr. Tom Morrow.

I should warn hon. members to be on their best behavior because what the students will learn this morn­ ing by watching the Assembly in action will be transposed into a mock legislature they'll be holding in their own school later on. I would ask that hon. members join with me as the students rise and give them a warm welcome to this Assembly.

10 ALBERTA HANSARD March 21, 1980 head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Child Care MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the first question to the hon. Minister of Social Services and Community Health. It concerns practices reportedly oc­ curring at the northern residential treatment centre. My first concern in posing these questions is to establish exactly what did occur. Can the minister indicate to the Assembly if one of the children in the residential centre in Peace River was made to stand in front of a sink for up to 16 hours as a part of that child's treatment? MR. BOGLE: Mr.

Speaker, I welcome an opportunity to restate some of the facts regarding the incidents at the privately operated centre near Peace River. In that re­ gard, I made public last week a report by a Dr. Thompson, an educational psychologist from the Grande Prairie area. If the hon. member has not had an opportu­ nity to obtain a copy of the report, I'd be pleased to provide it for him. He'll find that many of the allegations are dealt with in that report. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, to the minister.

Can the minister confirm to the Assembly that one of the chil­ dren, who was a permanent ward of the province, was made to urinate in the bed that he was then forced to sleep in? MR. BOGLE: As I've indicated, Mr. Speaker, allegations are contained in the report. The practice or the offensive allegation the hon. member refers to is contained in that report. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, can the minister confirm that another one of the children was made to eat dog food? MR.

SPEAKER: I certainly don't want to inhibit any proper line of questioning, but it's a longstanding rule of the question period that the questioner seeks information and doesn't supply it. If the hon. leader wishes to do that, certainly there's no objection. But to ask a minister to confirm all kinds of sundry facts is really not the purpose of the question period, if the hon. member already has those facts. If he's seeking information, that's fine. MR. R. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, with the greatest of respect, sir, might I say that what I'm attempting to do is to provide an opportunity for the minister to indicate to the highest court in this province if in fact these things did take place in his department with young children who are either temporary or permanent wards of this govern­ ment. That is the intent and the purpose of posing the questions this way, sir.

My additional question to the minister is: has the minister checked and can the minister confirm to the Assembly that a 5-year-old boy who had serious health problems was made to lie on the floor, face down, while staff members sat on top of that person? Did that take place in this centre in Peace River that public funds were being used to support, with a youngster who was either a permanent or a temporary ward of the province of Alberta? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, the concerns, which were first brought to the attention of the department in November 1979, were dealt with at the regional level.

Once the director of child welfare became involved, one of the results was to ensure that a psychologist with an education at the doctorate level conduct a review of the same. That was done, and the report by Dr. Thompson was completed on February 29. I've indicated, Mr. Speaker, that if the hon. member has not had an opportunity to see the document, I'll be very happy to provide it for him. It was made public last week. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the hon. minister.

Having regard that the children who were in this institution were either per­ manent or temporary wards of the province, can the minister indicate who, as guardian of those permanent or temporary wards of the province, authorized the treat­ ment program of children who were wards of the north­ ern residential treatment centre? MR. BOGLE: The practices administered at the centre were developed by the two program co-ordinators who operated the facility, in consultation with the psychologist through the division of mental health within the depart­ ment. That psychologist is stationed in Peace River. MR. R.

CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the minister. Were the child welfare officers, employees of the minister's department who were the guardians of the children, advised of the proposed treat­ ment prior to the treatment being imposed on the children? MR. BOGLE: No, Mr. Speaker. Had they been, I'm sure these practices would not have been permitted. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, then will the minister confirm that these practices had gone unnoticed for sev­ eral months, or were department officials aware of the practices for several months? MR. BOGLE: Mr.

Speaker, when the concerns were identified by the regional office in Peace River, the re­ gional administrator issued an order to terminate those practices. That was on November 13, 1979. On November 16 of the same year, a meeting was held with the advisory board for the centre, along with the two co-ordinators and the two houseparents. At that time a motion was passed by the advisory board that no further individua­ lized therapy should be prescribed and permitted without the express approval of the board. MR. R. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, can the minister indicate to the Assembly how long these treatments had been imposed on children who were permanent and temporary wards of the province? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, from the information I have, approximately four to four and one-half months. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister. Is the minister in a position to advise the Assembly the reasons for the apparent delay in the minister's learning of these rather serious allegations?

The meeting the minister referred to, I believe, took place on November 16; the minister apparently was not aware of it until the Ombudsman's office advised the minister's of­ fice. Why was this information not communicated to the

March 21, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 11 minister's office? What steps have been taken by the minister to determine why that did not occur? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, to answer the first part of the question first, following the meeting on November 16 the regional administrator was satisfied that appropriate action had been taken. The board, which is responsible for the centre, had passed a motion that such offensive practices should not be condoned or permitted and that no further practices would be allowed without its express approval. The regional administrator was satisfied that those practices had, in fact, ceased.

The houseparents, who resigned at about that time, wrote to the Ombudsman's office. The Ombudsman's of­ fice notified our director of child welfare, who then car­ ried on his own investigation of the matter. Two results of that inquiry came in, I believe, on December 5. On or about December 11, the director of child welfare issued the order to cease and desist. So even if the board at the privately operated centre were to be persuaded that one of these practices should be permitted, that would not be allowed. That was the order to cease and desist.

The second action taken and approved by the director of child welfare was that Dr. Thompson be engaged to further investigate the allegations and report the same to the director of child welfare. The director then wrote a memo to the chief deputy minister of the department indicating that a concern had been raised. He made spe­ cific reference to an instance relating to a child who wet his bed and was required to sleep in it, and the chief deputy minister appropriately passed that on to me. It should be noted, Mr. Speaker, that under "appropriate action to be taken" the memo contained reference to Dr.

Thompson, the fact that he was doing a report, that once the report was completed it would be forwarded to the management division of the department, and that the same would be discussed with me as the policy head. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister, so there's no misunderstanding. Is the minister saying that the commissioning of the Thompson report came as a result of an order by the director of child welfare as a consequence of information transferred from the regional office?

Or did it come as a consequence of information transmitted by the Ombudsman's office after the Hesses had contacted the Ombudsman express­ ing their concern? MR. BOGLE: Well, Mr. Speaker, I indicated in my earli­ er response that the director of child welfare was notified by the Ombudsman's office. The director of child welfare, upon his own investigations and discussions with the regional director in Peace River, then concluded that a review was necessary, and that was undertaken.

He fur­ ther issued an order to cease and desist as part of his responsibility as director of child welfare under The Child Welfare Act. Therefore, he had taken appropriate actions. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, my question to the hon. minister, so there is no misunderstanding, really relates to the avenues of communication that normally occur within the department. Having had an opportunity to review the correspondence, is the minister satisfied that the avenues of communication worked properly? Had the Hesses not gone to the Ombudsman, would the department have been able to commission the kind of study Dr.

Thompson undertook? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member is asking a question which is not only hypothetical, but he is asking the minister to express an opinion as to whether there was something that was satisfactory. The hon. member is en­ titled to form his own opinion on that. Expressions of opinion ordinarily take place during debate. Just to advert for a moment to my original intervention when the hon. Leader of the Opposition was speaking, the reason for not seeking confirmation in the Assembly of information which is already available is, I think, obvious.

Now, I did not happen to know the full content of whatever statement the minister might have made public. But the hon. leader knows, and I am sure all hon. members know, that the question period is not an appro­ priate time to try to elicit information which has already been made public. I didn't intervene again to see what course the questions would take, and it may be that some of them went beyond the exact scope of the information that was made public. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, my question really related to an attempt to satisfy ourselves, as members of the Assembly, that in fact the avenues of communication within the department were working sat­ isfactorily. Rather than pose the hypothetical question, I would pose a direct question to the minister and ask whether the minister specifically reviewed the avenues of communication, and whether there will be any changes in the method of communicating between regional offices as a consequence of this unfortunate situation? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, a value judgment was made by the administrator.

I think we have to recognize that we have people administering the 41 district offices in this province, and they must make decisions daily. The re­ gional administrator made a value judgment decision that the situation was well in hand. Had there been any resis­ tance or opposition by the board to the termination of the offensive practices, then I'm convinced, from the in­ formation I have, that the regional administrator would have acted quite differently. On the other hand, the advisory board members were deeply concerned. That's why they took the appropriate action they did on November 16.

Again, from the regional administrator's point of view, the situation was well in hand. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question to the hon. minister. Did the order to cease and desist, which the minister referred to, distinguish between acceptable be­ havior modification and offensive behavior modification? Was it restricted only to the northern residential treat­ ment centre, or was it in fact a general prohibition to all services of a contract nature employing behavior modifi­ cation techniques in the province of Alberta? MR. BOGLE: Mr.

Speaker, the order to cease and desist was directed through the Peace River regional office to the Northern Regional Treatment Residence. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, to clarify that latter point, I wonder if the minister would assure the House that all public or private Alberta child care facilities funded by the provincial government have been advised and ordered to cease such extreme activities and treat­ ment as in the northern regional treatment centre. MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, in order to complete our internal review, a week ago this past Monday I instructed

12 ALBERTA HANSARD March 21, 1980 the chief deputy minister, who in turn advised senior officials in the department, to do a thorough review of the approximately 550 facilities we as a government either operate or fund. Those range from institutions as large as Michener Centre, with some 1,600 clients, down to and including the six-member group homes. That review is well under way at the present time. The verbal informa­ tion which has been passed on, and of course that will be substantiated later through written correspondence, is that the offensive practices outlined in Dr.

Thompson's report are not being permitted or condoned in any other facilities in the province. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, would the minister also assure the House that he is following up on this order, that in fact those orders are being carried out? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, that was the intent of the meeting which took place a week ago last Monday, on March 10. The memo I had from the chief deputy minis­ ter on March 14 confirmed that from telephone inter­ views with various operators of the facilities no such practices were being permitted or condoned.

That is being followed up in a more formal way now through the inspection process and written reports. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. The minister referred to an order to cease and desist, on December 14 or thereabouts, from the director of child welfare. So there's no misunderstanding, that order to cease and desist related only to the northern residential treatment centre and not to all other centres? If that was the case . . . Well, I'll put that question to him. MR. BOGLE: Mr.

Speaker, had the director of child welfare known of practices such as those, which at that time were still alleged, he would have moved immediately to ensure that those practices would be terminated imme­ diately. One report did come in. It was dealt with in an appropriate way by the director of child welfare. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. The minister indicated that one report did come in. Is the minister referring to the NRTR report, or is he talking about other reports? MR. BOGLE: Mr.

Speaker, the only such offensive prac­ tices which are known to the department — and that's following thorough consultation with the 41 regional of­ fices — occurred where five children, who were wards of the province, were located in the privately operated facili­ ty located just outside Peace River. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. What steps has the minister taken to review the budgetary process with respect to these con­ tract arrangements? The Thompson report makes some note of the $8,000 shortfall, which caused very serious problems for the NRTR.

What decisions have been made subsequent to the Thompson report to provide for a more flexible approach to fund centres where, in the case of the NRTR, an obvious clerical error had caused some real problems not only for the people running the centre but, more important, for the children in it? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is correct in stating that a clerical error had been made. He should go on to note that the error occurred by the applicants who were submitting their budget for approval. That's one of the issues which concerned not only me but my colleagues in government.

If you note in the Cavanagh Board of Review, the first of the nine terms of reference is to report on changes, if any, that should be made in the policies, practices, and procedures in the administration of The Child Welfare Act. Clearly, Mr.

Speaker, we want to ensure in Alberta, where there is an ever increasing number of requests to de-institutionalize and decentralize, that, as we enter into a greater number of contracts with private agencies and non-profit organizations, we're able to respond to the needs so that we can ensure and assist those — volunteers in many ways — to meet very appropriately the needs of the children in our care. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: We have a considerable list of ques­ tioners, and the time is running in the question period. Possibly we might have a final supplementary by the hon.

Member for Spirit River-Fairview, followed by a further supplementary each by three of the hon. members in the official opposition. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary ques­ tion to the hon. Minister of Social Services and Commu­ nity Health relates to the assurance he gave the hon. Member for Edmonton Kingsway. In issuing an order to all the facilities in the province, some 500 of them, that these offensive behavior modification practices would cease and desist, would the minister, first of all, indicate to the Legislature whether the government would be prepared to table that order?

In view of the controversy surrounding this issue, does the order define "objection­ able" or "offensive" as opposed to "acceptable" behavior modification techniques? MR. BOGLE: The order to cease and desist, Mr. Speak­ er, was issued by the director of child welfare through the regional administrator in Peace River.

I might draw to the hon. member's attention comments I made on March 10 after completing a pre-session tour in my constituency, at which time I indicated there was a need to develop and ensure that we had the parameters within which the professional people within the department, and on con­ tract with the department, would operate. I again draw the attention of hon. members to the terms of reference of the Cavanagh Board of Review and point number three, where it is to report on the need to establish guidelines in respect to the limits of treatment policies, procedures, and practices that may be authorized.

A clear desire and objective of this government, through the Cavanagh Board of Review, is to look very carefully at this whole area, setting guidelines so that the professional people know the parameters within which they must operate. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, supplementary to the minister for clarification. Could the minister indicate whether the behavior modification technique will not occur in any institution across the province during the time of review, and has the minister given a directive to that effect at the present time? MR. BOGLE: Mr.

Speaker, certainly the very offensive practices administered at the centre . . . I wanted to assure myself, on March 10, that those practices were not being permitted or allowed. I'm sure that one of the

March 21, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 13 things the hon. member is not asking is that we, with a broad sweep, place all behavioral modification in the category of the very offensive practices used in Peace River. I'm sure the hon. member is not suggesting that. Guidelines to ensure that there is no recurrence of those practices which were so offensive to all of us: yes, Mr. Speaker, that's well under way within the department. MR. R. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a supplementary question to the minister and ask if he has discussed with officials of his department an approach made to the Hesses by the department to adopt one of the five youngsters who were in the Peace River home. Since the Hesses have gone to the Ombudsman, has the de­ partment advised them that they will not be able to adopt any of the five children? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I am certainly not aware of that concern. I will personally look into it and advise the hon. member. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is to the Premier.

In light of the Metis files raid fiasco, in the Westfield home controversy in Edmonton, and the NRTR controversy . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I suppose that a certain amount of insinuendo is to be expected now and again in a question, but there have to be limits. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, in light of the controversy in the department, can the Premier indicate if he will be making a nearly immediate change on the ministerial level in the Department of Social Services and Commu­ nity Health? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, I have been listening very carefully to the question period today, and I believe any fair-minded individual would be impressed with the sensitivity, the feelings, and the awareness of the Minister of Social Services and Community Health. He continues to have my confidence and that of my colleagues. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, we're glad to see . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Would the hon. member please resume his seat. Is the hon. Member for Bow Valley intending to ask a supplementary? I thought we had run the three, but perhaps we could have one more. MR.

MANDEVILLE: A final supplementary question to the minister, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate to the Assembly where the children from this home are located now, or where they are being cared for? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, at the request of the opera­ tors of the home, the children were removed from the facility on Friday, March 7. They are now in other facili­ ties in northern Alberta. Nurses' Salaries MR. R. CLARK: My second question is to the Minister of Labour. I ask it in light of the group of nurses who attended the front steps of the Legislature Building late yesterday afternoon.

What is the minister prepared to do now to settle the nurses' grievances and to avoid a possi­ ble strike? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report that I am prepared to see that the mechanism which is normally in place for the resolution of these disputes is followed through. The situation is that the conciliation board, which was appointed officially on February 20, had its mandate extended to this week. I have received a request from the chairman of the conciliation board in which he stated that he felt he had made some very considerable progress.

I might point out to all hon. members that that was very heartening news. It's the first such optimistic and positive statement I have been able to receive with respect to that dispute. He thought that an extension to March 31 would enable him to complete, with other members of the board, the mandate of the board. The United Nurses of Alberta, through their bargaining representative Mr.

Renouf, wrote to me expressing concern about extending the mandate of the board, but did indicate that if the life of the board were extended, as they understood it might be, they would be inclined to attend meetings on March 24 and 25. Yesterday I had further personal conversations with Mr. Renouf. He confirmed that considerable progress had indeed been made and assured me that he was co-operating with the conciliation board in every respect. I am pleased to clarify that the parties are making progress, that the conciliation board has a mandate now to March 31, with the request, as contained in Mr.

Renouf's correspondence, that they report by March 27 if possible. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a point of clarification. Did the minister say that the deadline established is the 27th, that there must be a decision by that time? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I did not state that. Mr. Renouf indicated that the nurses would like to have the report by March 27, for a meeting which they plan before March 31. I drew that desire to the attention of the chairman of the conciliation board, but Mr.

Renouf concurs with me that no value would be reached and no interest of the public or the nurses served by receiving a report which is incomplete or unclear. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, to the minister. Has the minis­ ter indicated at any time that he will be directly involved in bringing the two sides together? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, inasmuch as I have a re­ sponsibility, at least in law, to appoint commissioners and conciliation boards, I've already had and exercised that responsibility, and will continue to keep a personal watching brief over the situation. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question to either the hon.

Minister of Labour or the hon. Minister of Hospi­ tals and Medical Care. Is the government in a position to advise the Assembly whether any advice has gone out to the Alberta Hospital Association with respect to the guideline program and the application of the guidelines to employees of Alberta hospitals? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, as Minister of Labour it's my responsibility to make sure that the process of achiev­ ing a collective agreement without a work stoppage, if that be possible, is carried out to the fullest extent.

That is the responsibility I have, and the mandate and directive I have followed in dealing with this dispute.

14 ALBERTA HANSARD March 21, 1980 MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, supplementary question to the hon. minister. The question related to the application of the province's policy on guidelines for public sector employees. My question to the hon. minister, or either hon. gentleman: has there been any formal communica­ tion between the government of Alberta and the Alberta Hospital Association which would suggest to the AHA that they should follow the guidelines? That's a rather important element before any further discussion of settl­ ing this issue can take place. MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, I think I should comment on that for the hon. member. Since the general meeting held with representatives of all the emanations of gov­ ernment involved in public sector bargaining, there has been no communication on that matter. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care.

Has the government of Alberta communicated any position with respect to budget ceilings which would place hospital boards in the situation where, were an arbitration award above the 7.5 to 9 per cent — or should the hospital associations settle above 7.5 to 9 per cent, there would not be last-dollar funding from the province, but that additional funds would have to come from closing down beds in Alberta hospitals? MR. RUSSELL: No, Mr. Speaker. I think the hon. member is aware that The Alberta Hospitals Act gives complete authority and legal responsibility to the boards to make those sorts of decisions themselves.

Other than the broad guidelines that have been issued to all those public sector organizations, as I mentioned, there has been no direction. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, supplementary question to the Minister for Hospitals and Medical Care. Can the minis­ ter indicate if the department has done a study on the shortage of nurses in the province? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, that matter is constantly under review. It fluctuates. From time to time we seem to have seasonal shortages in that profession.

In addition to the monitoring done by individual hospitals and the Alberta Hospital Association, the government also has an interdisciplinary committee represented by three depart­ ments, Hospitals and Medical Care, Social Services and Community Health, and Advanced Education and Manpower. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, supplementary question to the minister. Has anybody in the minister's department done a study to see if there's any correlation between the shortage and the fact that nurses in Alberta are the sixth lowest paid in Canada? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I don't know if that conclusion could be reached. DR.

BUCK: The two would seem to go together. MR. RUSSELL: If the hon. member knows so much already, I don't know why he's asking me the question. DR. BUCK: We want to know if the minister knows. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. RUSSELL: I was going to continue by saying, Mr. Speaker, that a variety of data is available, comparing not only the salary of any occupational group with their peer groups in other provinces, but also with private sector salaries. We also monitor pretty carefully the dif­ ferent graphs and the relationship between inflationary factors and salary increases that have occurred.

Based on that kind of data, there are certain sorts of arguments you can make. On the other hand, other kinds of arguments you can make are the very popular ones: that you can earn more by being a truck driver than you can by being a nurse. But I think one has to consider very carefully that sort of data. I can assure the member that all those sorts of data are carefully kept. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Can the minister indicate what contingency plan the department has in place in the event that the nurses across the province resign? MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, we do keep in touch with the executive of the Alberta Hospital Association with respect to any number of contingency plans that might have to be brought into effect for any unusual circum­ stance that would occur within their individual institutions. MR. NOTLEY: Supplementary question to the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care.

During the discussion of contingency plans with the Alberta Hospital Association, has the government indicated that, because of the status of nurses' salaries in this province compared to other parts of the country, the government would review fa­ vorably increases beyond the guidelines, as we have al­ ready worked out with doctors in the province of Alberta, in order to maintain a first rate health and hospital system in the province? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I know the hon. member is aware that, on the scale of salaries, the relationship of one province to another fluctuates continually.

From time to time we'll be at the top and other provinces will attempt to achieve our level or some other province's level. It's a continually moving thing. We're aware of that. Insofar as giving any direction to members of the Alberta Hospital Association or any particular hospital within the association, we have not done that. It is their legal responsibility and their desire to negotiate this with­ in their own guidelines. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this topic. MR.

NOTLEY: What specific assessment is being given by the department at this stage for the flexibility in hospitals in growth areas? I might use the example of Grande Prairie as one obvious growth area where there is a tremendous amount of pressure. Will there be any flexibility at all in the department, so that this matter can be dealt with? British Columbia nurses have a northern bonus. Would the department look at that sort of thing favorably? Or is it entirely up to the Alberta Hospital

March 21, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 15 Association, even though last-dollar funding comes from this government? MR. RUSSELL: Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't quite under­ stand the hon. member's question. I think the record of this government over the years has shown that there has been an excellent response to those various kinds of circumstances. I refer to the appeal system that's open to any hospital board if it's having budgetary problems. I refer to the appeals that have been granted, the extra funding that's gone out, by special warrant if necessary.

I refer to the number of accumulated deficits that have been picked up on an annual basis, a lot more of them just last week for the previous fiscal year. So I think it's fair to say that this government has not left its hospital members in dire financial straits. Hog Marketing MR. STROMBERG: Would the Minister of Agriculture give a review of events leading up to the involvement of the Marketing Council on behalf of the hog producers of Alberta and the Alberta hog marketing board? MR.

SPEAKER: Actually, in view of the very short time which remains, I have some apprehension about the length of answer that might be required for such a compendious question. [interjections] MR. STROMBERG: Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, if I request that the minister make it brief. [laughter] MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Speaker, we've had four answers already. SOME HON. MEMBERS: They're all wrong. DR. BUCK: Tell us about the public trough. MR. SCHMIDT: Mr.

Speaker, to bring the hon. mem­ ber, indeed all hon. members, up to date, because I'm aware of the concern of the hon. member who asked the question: all producers who market their products in this province through marketing boards also have the availa­ bility of a marketing council. The responsibilities of the Marketing Council in this province are to work with those boards that market all our products and to safe­ guard the producer from the point of view that an orderly system is ongoing; secondly, that the marketing boards operate within the terms of reference by which they were established.

At the present time, in accepting the produc­ er responsibility that ongoing marketing be orderly, the Marketing Council has submitted a modified system of marketing to the hog marketing board which will be insti­ tuted on April 11 with consultation of both the board itself and packers. The modified marketing system in no way takes away any of the powers of the hog marketing board, but it does guarantee on behalf of the producers of this province that an orderly system of marketing be established in the interim. MR. R. CLARK: A supplementary question to the minis­ ter, Mr. Speaker.

Did the request for the intervention by the council come from hog producers in this province? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Speaker, the make-up of the Marketing Council is a producer board, a producer coun­ cil. The responsibilities of that council are to monitor all operations of all marketing boards and to see that they operate within the purview of the established terms of reference for which the council are responsible. In light of the disruption to the orderly system of marketing, it was the council's decision that a modified system be instituted on a temporary basis.

So it would be on the council's acceptance of their responsibilities. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, to the minister. Did the minister direct the council to take this action? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Speaker, the council has ongoing responsibilities and need no direction from the minister in accepting those responsibilities. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, in this particular case did the minister ask or direct the Marketing Council to take the action it did in reorganizing the marketing of hogs in the province? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr.

Speaker, I can only say again that the Marketing Council made that move on behalf of the council and on behalf of producers, and it's part of their responsibility. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. While the Marketing Council made the decision, did the minister communicate the government's view that a modification should be made on an interim basis? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr.

Speaker, it's the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture to see that an orderly and fair marketing system is always in place, and in the communication in a very total way that the Marketing Council accept the responsibility of seeing that an orderly system be ongoing in the interim period. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister. Was it the government's view, and was that view communicated to the Marketing Council, that there would have to be some modification on an interim basis?

Was the government's view communicated by the minister to the council prior to the council assum­ ing its responsibility? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Speaker, in the total communiques received since the disruption in the marketing system, both from many producers and from other areas respon­ sible for marketing, that a system be established — of course on behalf of the producers it's imperative we have a regular and ongoing system to make sure the product has the availability to market.

The council at that time accepted its responsibility, and we in Agriculture agreed there must be a system that will operate in an orderly way, on an interim base, until some recommended changes are made for a more permanent system. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Did the council's decision come first and the government then accept it? Or was there any com­ munication between the minister, the minister's office, and the council before the decision was made? MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

This is the fifth time the same question has been asked, with a slightly different text each time. That's four times too many.

16 ALBERTA HANSARD March 21, 1980 MR. NOTLEY: I'll put a supplementary question and ask the minister how long the interim period is anticipated to last. Will it be the duration of this exhaustive study that is once again taking place, being inflicted on hog produc­ ers in the province? Or has the government made up its mind how long the interim period will continue? MR. R. CLARK: He hasn't made up his mind yet. MR. SPEAKER: The time for the question period actual­ ly elapsed a few moments ago. But since I've already recognized the hon.

Member for Bow Valley, not realiz­ ing the extent of the questions that would be repeated, if the Assembly agrees, perhaps we might hear the question. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Agricultural Development Corporation MR. MANDEVILLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is also to the hon. Minister of Agriculture. Has the minister had discussions with any of the chartered banks with regard to the high interest rates on ADC guaranteed loans? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr.

Speaker, I personally have not had discussions, but those responsible within the Department of Agriculture have had some ongoing discussions with regard to interest rates and how they affect agriculture in this province. MR. MANDEVILLE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Last fall the minister announced that there would be a complete review of all programs under ADC. Could the minister indicate when these announcements are going to be made or when the review will be complete? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr.

Speaker, we will have the oppor­ tunity of making some announcements on those changes during this sitting of the Legislature. DR. BUCK: Better do it before they all go broke, Dallas. It may be too late. MR. SPEAKER: A difficulty of Standing Order 29 is to tell exactly when a motion of the kind of which the hon. Leader of the Opposition has given notice must be made. It's like trying to find space between the two sides of a period. Perhaps we might consider this the appropriate time. MR. R. CLARK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It was my intention after Orders of the Day had been called.

I'd like to rise under Standing Order 29 and request leave to adjourn the Assembly to discuss a matter of urgent public importance; namely, the financial burden placed upon Albertans by extremely high mortgage inter­ est rates which they face when renegotiating the mort­ gages on their principal residence. Mr. Speaker, according to Beauchesne, on page 92, the matter must be a "specific and important matter requiring urgent con­ sideration" . . . [and] must be so pressing that public interest will suffer if it is not given immediate attention.

The public interest will suffer if this question of mortgage rates and renegotiation of mortgage rates is not given immediate attention. The negotiation of a mortgage re­ newal cannot wait, Mr. Speaker. Mortgages are being renegotiated now at punitive interest rates. Albertans who must absorb these rates are facing severe financial hard­ ships, many of them to the extent where they'll be forced to sell if they can find a buyer to take over their home or, in cases where they can't find a buyer, to default their mortgage. Mr.

Speaker, approximately 25,000 Alberta families must negotiate their mortgages within the next 12 months. Many of these Albertans took out their mort­ gages last year at interest rates of 11.5 per cent and are facing a mortgage payment increase of nearly 40 per cent. Renters will also be hit very hard. They'll be hurt as their landlords renegotiate the mortgages on their rental prop­ erties. So it's a matter of the 25,000 Alberta families who must renegotiate mortgages this year, and the thousands of renters whose landlords have to renegotiate mortgages this year also.

The Bank of Canada raised its bank rate by six-tenths of a point yesterday, Mr. Speaker. Mortgage rates will soon follow and put an even greater pressure on the problem, which is becoming more of a crisis every Thurs­ day in light of the action taken by the federal government in Ottawa. I recognize that interest rates are out of the purview and scope of this Assembly. But I submit to you, Mr.

Speaker, that there are steps this province can take, not only in shielding interest rates but in direct mortgages to Albertans at 12 per cent lower, that would enable the 25,000 families involved in this renegotiation now and the many renters who find themselves in an extremely diffi­ cult situation. It's my submission, Mr. Speaker, that this motion meets the terms set out under

Section 29 in our rules of the House, and I would ask the concurrence of hon. members to commence the debate. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, the hon. leader's mo­ tion today is made under one of the most familiar stand­ ing orders in both our own Standing Orders and, tradi­ tionally, in those of the House of Commons and parliaments. As is well known to the hon. leader and all hon. members, the issue always is not the substance or impor­ tance or urgency of the issue itself, but the urgency of the debating of that issue or resolution. The hon. leader chose to refer to one of the citations on page 92 of Beauchesne.

I have in fact just referred to the one immediately following the one he referred to, which reads: "Urgency" within this rule does not apply to the matter itself, but means "urgency of debate'', when the ordinary opportunities provided by the rules of the House do not permit the subject to be brought on early enough and the public interest demands that discussion take place immediately. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that one of the most remarka­ ble propositions that could have been made under this particular standing order is the one the hon. leader made today.

He has chosen an occasion when it's well known that in due course all members of the Assembly have the opportunity in the throne speech debate, which is to open today, to speak on any matter, without exception and without limitation. That opportunity, by tradition of this House, comes to the hon. Leader of the Opposition. When? Today. If he wishes, instead of his normal ad­ journment motion after the seconder, he rises and speaks

March 21, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 17 on this issue. In such circumstances, Mr. Speaker, it would be the most extraordinary

interpretation of this standing order if Your Honour were to rule in favor of the motion made by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, in rising to address several comments on the motion requesting an emergency de­ bate, I certainly concur with the reasons for a debate advanced by the hon. Leader of the Opposition.

Clearly, the 25,000 Alberta families facing the prospect of renew­ ing their mortgages at substantially increased interest rates should expect from this Legislature not only an expression of concern but, I think, some commitment on the part of the government to do something about it. I think an argument can be made that an emergency debate by members of the Assembly would underscore the rele­ vance of this issue before the budget is actually presented to the Legislature. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask members of the Legislature and you, sir, to go back a few years in time, to 1975 — page 429 of Hansard for that year. You may remember, sir, that in that year I requested an emergency debate on the very low vacancy rate in apartments in the cities of Edmonton and Calgary. Hon. members presented all the arguments the hon. Attorney General presented this morning. For example, we were just about ready to go into the estimates of the Department of Housing and Public Works. The hon. Government House Leader ar­ gued that discussion could come under the estimates.

There was a Bill dealing with The Landlord and Tenant Act. Other hon. members — I believe the present Minis­ ter of Education — argued that it could come under the discussion of modifications to The Landlord and Tenant Act. But I would remind you, sir, that in my view your ruling, on page 431 of Hansard, sort of put this in perspective. The right to call for an emergency debate is a mechanism that has been used in our parliamentary sys­ tem for years to underscore the importance of an issue. Of course, the hon.

Leader of the Opposition can raise it in his budget speech; he can raise it in the Speech from the Throne debate a little later this morning. But the mechanism of stressing the importance has always been an understood practice in our system of government. I would just like to quote, if I may, sir, your observa­ tions at the time: There is no question that from time to time in the past there has been an opportunity to debate the topic. Indeed, sir, there had been the opportunity to debate it in the Speech from the Throne debate. There will undoubtedly be opportunities in the fu­ ture.

It may well be that in the course of the esti­ mates of the Department of Housing and Public Works, there will be further opportunity to debate the question. Then you go on, sir: If one were to assemble all the objections to all the various conceivable motions which might be brought under Standing Order 29, and use them in connec­ tion with each proposal, no doubt none of those motions would ever get past the preliminary stage. The motion under Standing Order 29, as hon. members know, is not one that leads to a vote and a conclusion which recommends or compels any action by anyone. It is a debate pure and simple.

Then you relate the point made by the hon. Member for Edmonton Highlands at the time: As has been mentioned by the hon. Member for Edmonton Highlands and, I believe, the hon. Gov­ ernment House Leader, the question is: the urgency of the debate. There is no question at all that the housing situation has been what might be called one of chronic crisis. Well, I think that could be said about the mortgage market. This is rather crucial, Mr. Speaker: But there is always the possibility that a crisis which has been chronic may become acute.

We all know that the mortgage market and the prob­ lems of increasing mortgage rates and higher interest rates has been chronic. The question is whether or not an increase yesterday of 0.6 per cent, which is going to have a very significant impact on the mortgage market, moves from the chronic to the acute stage. Mr. Speaker, using your judgment on the occasion five years ago, I would submit that in fact we have moved from a chronic problem to an acute one.

Then you finish your remarks, sir, by saying: In deciding whether or not the motion is acceptable, the role of the Speaker is very similar to that which he has in a matter of privilege. His function is merely preliminary. . . . The function of the Speaker, as I have mentioned, is preliminary, and only prelimi­ nary. Whether the debate subsequently goes on or . . . does not involve any agreement or disagreement with the ruling of the Speaker. Once he has dealt with the question in a preliminary way, the Speaker's function is complete.

You conclude your remarks, sir, by saying: The possibility of future debate may be something which hon. members might wish to take into consid­ eration. But under the circumstances, and having regard to the provisions of Standing Order 29 and the precedents, I would have to say that the motion would be acceptable if it were acceptable to the Assembly. And there are rules which clearly state that a certain number of members must rise if an emergency debate is to take place. Mr.

Speaker, using this as a precedent, a ruling that you yourself, sir, have made in the Assembly — albeit a previous Legislature of this province — I think there is a strong argument to be made, notwithstanding the fact that it could be debated in the Speech from the Throne, as it could have five years ago, or that it may come up in the estimates, or in the budget, that a chronic problem, as a result of yesterday's bank interest rate increase of 0.6 per cent, has become acute. Therefore it would be in order to rule on a preliminary basis that debate could take place on this issue. MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Speaker, dealing with the argu­ ments just advanced by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview, I wish to draw his attention and that of the House to the question of urgency. I think the rules are very specific and provide that where there is no opportu­ nity to debate the issue in the normal course of the business of the House, the Speaker may rule that an emergency debate may take place. The Beauchesne citation by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, No. 286 on page 92 of the newest edition, is one thing. But as the hon.

Government House Leader has pointed out, the next ruling, No. 287, says: "Urgency" within this rule does not apply to the matter itself, but means "urgency of debate", when

18 ALBERTA HANSARD March 21, 1980 the ordinary opportunities provided by the rules of the House do not permit the subject to be brought on early enough and public interest demands that discussion take place immediately.

The next ruling, No. 288, goes on to say: The Speaker is bound to apply to motions made under S.O. 26 the established rules of debate, and to enforce the principle that subjects excluded by those rules cannot be brought forward thereon, such as a matter under adjudication by a court of law, or matters already discussed or appointed for consider­ ation during the current session, whether upon a substantive motion, upon an amendment, or upon an Order of the Day. Mr.

Speaker, the only urgency I can see that the Leader of the Opposition can put forward is that he wishes to speak before the two members of the Legislative Assembly who will be moving and seconding the reply to the Speech from the Throne, because immediately thereafter, today, within a very short period of time, the Leader of the Opposition has the opportunity to make an amendment to the motion under debate. If he thinks it important enough, his amendment can deal specifically with the issue he puts before the Assembly by way of this motion.

I would suggest, therefore, that the citation presented to this Assembly by the hon. Member for Spirit River- Fairview is not applicable to the facts of this particular case today, and indeed the opportunity is wide open to the Leader of the Opposition. I would like also to draw to the attention of the House and you, Mr. Speaker — which I need hardly do — that with regard to the time limits that apply to this issue, there are no limits upon the time the Leader of the Opposition can speak. Under Standing Order 28, the Leader of the Opposition has unlimited speaking time in this Assembly.

He can speak this morning after he moves his motion, perhaps to amend the reply to the Speech from the Throne; he can speak unendingly on this sub­ ject, on the amendment, and then later again on the motion after the amendment has been dealt with. So I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that this is not a time when it is necessary to take up the time of this House with a motion under Standing Order 29.

Indeed, all the rules indicate that the only urgency in this case would appear to be the urgency that the Leader of the Opposi­ tion feels to speak before the two members of this Assembly who will be moving and seconding the reply to the Speech from the Throne. Therefore I urge your honour, Mr. Speaker, to rule the motion out of order, permit us to get on with the debate on the Speech from the Throne, and then give the Leader of the Opposition the opportunity this very day in this Assembly to deal with the subject he considers to be so urgent. MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, if I . . . MR.

SPEAKER: We're taking up a great deal of the time of the Assembly on this, which is really a point of order. Perhaps the hon. minister might make some brief com­ ments, and although I am not aware of any outright claim to a rebuttal, perhaps we might then hear briefly from the Leader of the Opposition. Then the matter can be disposed of. MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, further to the comments that have been made by my colleague with respect to Annota­ tion 288 in Beauchesne, page 92, in addition to the undoubted right of the hon.

Leader of the Opposition to speak later on this morning to precisely the question which exercises him, and indeed to move an amendment to the address in reply to the Speech from the Throne on the question if he so chooses, I would draw to the atten­ tion of the Speaker this part of Annotation 288: The Speaker is bound to apply to motions made under S.O. 26 [in our case, 29] the established rules of debate, and to enforce the principle that subjects excluded . . . cannot be brought forward thereon, such as a matter . . . [to be] discussed or appointed for consideration during the current session, whether upon a substantive motion, upon an amendment, [which my colleague has just referred to] or upon an Order of the Day.

I would draw to the attention of the Speaker that we have, under Notices, a resolution proposed by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, the text of which is exactly the same as the item he proposes for emergency debate this morning. Since it is standing under Notices under his name, I would suggest that it meets the criteria of 288; that is, that it is "appointed for consideration during the current session".

Because it is appointed for consideration during the current session, in exactly the same wording as we have on our desks this morning, I would suggest that it is not appropriate for consideration as a matter of urgent public importance, aside from the very valid comments by my hon. colleague about debate on the Speech from the Throne. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, in responding to the points put forward by the members of the government side of the House, let me simply draw three points to your attention, sir, and to the attention of members of the Assembly.

I believe it's public knowledge that the budget in the province will be coming down on April 2. That will condense the debate on the Speech from the Throne. It is true, as has been pointed out by the Government House Leader, the deputy house leader, and the deputy deputy house leader, that the Leader of the Opposition does have the opportunity to speak today on an extended basis, as long as he wants, and that if this is approved by the Assembly, I, along with all other members, would have 10 minutes to speak. But, Mr.

Speaker, today we are attempting to provide an emergent opportunity for a number of members to put their points of view on what this Assembly can urge the government to do, what steps to take in budget prepara­ tion, so that we can protect Albertans from the problem before us right now. That would allow a large number of members on both sides of the House to put their views forward this morning, to give advice to the Provincial Treasurer that he could take into consideration when he brings his budget down a week from next Wednesday night.

I say to the Government House Leader and all other hon. members that I would hope that opportunity would be extremely beneficial, to hear not only from me but from members on both sides of the House as to the very immediate steps the government could include in the budget coming down a week from Wednesday. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, may I make a few comments on this issue? MR. SPEAKER: I hadn't anticipated any further interventions.

March 21, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 19 First of all, I should say that it's my understanding that the conditions listed under Standing Order 29(7) are not intended to be exhaustive of the considerations which apply to a motion of this kind. The one great difficulty I have with the motion is in regard to the opportunity of debate. I realize that on a previous occasion we were hardly, if at all, into the debate on the estimates.

But here we have not even begun the debate on the motion for the address in reply to the speech of His Honour, and I am not aware of any parliamentary precedent anywhere where a motion of this kind has succeeded prior to beginning the debate on the Speech from the Throne. Surely, if the opportunity of debate ever means any­ thing — and it is one of the significant factors in relation to a motion of this kind — it must have that meaning in an absolutely unprecedented, to an unexampled extent, prior to the commencement of the debate on the Speech from the Throne.

With that problem in mind, I do not see any way I could say that this motion is in order under Standing Order 29 or under parliamentary precedents at this par­ ticular time. It may well be that if, on a future occasion, after all these opportunities for debate have gone by — and that was partly the situation some years ago — the matter would have to be looked at again in a different light. But under the present circumstances, standing as we do just before the commencement of the throne speech debate, I regret to have to say that the motion does not meet the essential criteria.

May I ask the Assembly for leave for the hon. Minister responsible for Culture to introduce a distinguished guest who has arrived in the Speaker's gallery. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assembly, Ora Namir, a member of Israel's parliament. During her visit to Alberta, Mrs. Namir has been especially involved with the pioneer women of Alberta. I would ask her to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I have received a cer­ tain message from His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor, which I now transmit to you. SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: Order! [Members of the House stood] MR. SPEAKER: The Lieutenant-Governor transmits a

schedule of certain sums required in the interim for the service of the province for the 12 months ending March 31, 1981, and recommends the same to the Assembly. Please be seated. head: CONSIDERATION OF HIS HONOUR THE LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR'S SPEECH Moved by Dr.

Reid: That an humble address be presented to His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor of Alberta as follows: To His Honour the Honourable Frank Lynch-Staunton, Lieutenant-Governor of the province of Alberta: We, Her Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Legislative Assembly, now assembled, beg leave to thank Your Honour for the gracious speech Your Honour has been pleased to address to us at the opening of the present session. DR. REID: Mr.

Speaker, I would first like to thank the Premier for the great honor he has done the people of the Edson constituency and myself by asking me to move acceptance of the Speech from the Throne on this partic­ ular occasion. It is an honor for the people of the constit­ uency because not only are we celebrating this year the 75th Anniversary of the province of Alberta, but it is also the beginning of a new decade. We have also had the new Lieutenant-Governor read his first Speech from the Throne.

I would like to take the opportunity of welcoming His Honour to his responsibili­ ties as Her Majesty the Queen's representative in the province, and to assure him of our allegiance as the elected representatives of the people of the province. I would also like to express my gratitude for the unique manner in which the previous Lieutenant-Governor and his charming wife fulfilled their roles during his term, and to wish both Mr. and Mrs. Steinhauer health and hap­ piness in their retirement. For me it is a signal honor, as a new Canadian, to initiate debate upon the Speech from the Throne.

In particular, as I have been in Alberta now for 25 years and am therefore beginning my second quarter century, I feel I can represent all who were not fortunate enough to be born in the province, but who have had the wisdom and the opportunity to come here from elsewhere in both Canada and other countries in the world to make their home in our province. If I may have the indulgence of the House, I would like to give a short report on the constituency that it is my honor to represent in this Assembly. We have, along with the rest of the province, enjoyed a very buoyant year economically.

We are in process of some major develop­ ments in the resource industry, both non-renewable and renewable. The awarding of the Berland-Fox Creek for­ ests to British Columbia Forest Products, which was mentioned in the Speech from the Throne, has at long last given the community of Grande Cache the assurance that it will cease to be a one-industry town. The impend­ ing increase in their population will certainly stabilize the economy of that community. In the coal industry, Cardinal River Coals is once more expanding its operation.

And only three weeks ago in Hinton, we had the public hearings on the proposed Obed marsh coal mine. The oil and gas industry, which as you know has given considerable economic benefit to the town of Edson, has continued to expand in the area. There is a further proposal for another gas plant at Robb, some short distance southwest of Edson. Our other resource, the beauty of our hills and moun­ tains, has continued to attract an increasing number of tourists to the area. As you know, this is of considerable importance to the community of Jasper, which is com­

20 ALBERTA HANSARD March 21, 1980 pletely dependent upon that industry and the railroads. Excuse me, I have a cold. DR. BUCK: See a doctor. DR. REID: I need one, Walter. [laughter] The difficulty of that mix of beauty and renewable and non-renewable resource extraction, and the problems it creates, is of considerable importance in our constituency. It is of interest that the Speech from the Throne mentions a review of the Eastern Slopes policy, so that it can be kept up to date for the benefit of present and future Albertans.

The towns of Grande Cache, Edson, and Hinton, which are ordinary municipalities within this province, have been putting their funds from the municipal debt reduction program to good use. In Grande Cache they are reviewing the requirements for the increase in popula­ tion based on the forest industry. In Hinton it looks as if we are going to get the recreational facility that the growing population so much requires.

In Edson they have taken their money and the $600,000 they got from the roads to resources program and are finally starting on a paving program for the town streets, which that commu­ nity so sadly needs, as those who have travelled through there know. It is most unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that after a year which was so progressive we should finish with the trage­ dy at the mine in Grande Cache which resulted in the deaths of Al Gill, Dave Thomas, Tom Matthews, and Paul Wilbur. I would like to express to the families of those four men the condolences of this Assembly.

For myself, my first year in this Assembly — as an active politician might be a better way of putting it — has been an extremely busy and interesting one. I have en­ joyed my time in the House, and I have enjoyed being a member of the government caucus. I would like to thank the members of the Executive Council and the more experienced members of this Legislature for the help they've given me. Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the other freshmen and "freshwomen" would be the term, I sup­ pose, would like to thank you. MRS. FYFE: Freshpersons? [laughter] DR.

REID: I would like to thank you and the other officers of the Assembly for the help, advice, and assist­ ance you have offered to us. Mr. Speaker, in a year such as this we have to look back 75 years to understand Alberta as it now is: its strengths, problems, assets, hopes, and aspirations. This province was founded in September 1905 because the pioneers who had come here during the latter part of the 19th century and the first few years of the 20th century had by then shown they intended to stay here, and were showing every indication of success in their endeavors.

They came to a land which, at first appearance, might have seemed somewhat inhospitable and raw, and with a difficult climate for agriculture, the only industry this province had at that time, apart from fur trapping. Fortunately for our generations, they had tremendous faith in the future. They saw the potential of this province for their children and grandchildren. Their success did not come very easily. Hard work and many tribulations were their lot, and they must have welcomed the relief of the festivities in 1905 as a break in that hard work. Their faith in this province, Mr.

Speaker, was particu­ larly evident in this Legislature Building. The construc­ tion is indeed a monument to their faith and commitment to the future. I feel and hope that the result of all the construction and temporary disruption outside will give this building the setting that it so well deserves, and will indicate to future generations the continuing commitment of the people of this province. It would indeed be invidious to mention by name indi­ viduals from the last three-quarters of a century.

How great their contribution has been, whether in agriculture, industry, commerce, the professions, politics, or indeed the cultural activities of the province. This province, as it now stands in 1980, is indeed a tremendous achievement for all those people, and I think they would all be de­ lighted to see the results so far obtained. The quality of the people of this province in the last 75 years has demanded equal quality in government. There has been a remarkable record of strong, stable and, may I say, long-lived administrations. The people would never have stood for poor government for very long.

Legislative changes, as they have occurred, have tended to be evolu­ tionary rather than revolutionary. The Speech from the Throne in this particular year continues that evolutionary process. I would like to address some of my remarks in particu­ lar to those programs which are for the benefit of people. The province has recently shown, and is obviously going to continue showing, some very rapid economic and population growth. When I came here it was just over 1 million; it is now over 2 million.

Growth at that rate does produce problems, and this government's programs are mainly directed at ensuring that those problems have no deleterious effect on the quality of life, which means so much to Albertans. The programs proposed show that this is truly a government for people, a government that cares, in particular for the legitimate needs of those people who, through no fault of their own, because of disabilities, cannot take full

part in the economic benefits of our progress. In the field of health care, the current and proposed activity in hospital construction will continue to ensure that the people of Alberta will have a standard of care available nowhere else in this country. The Walter MacKenzie Health Sciences Centre and the Alberta chil­ dren's hospital in Calgary will provide a level of tertiary care not usually available to populations of this size. Most populations like ours just cannot contemplate such facilities.

Along with the Heritage Foundation for Medi­ cal Research, these two facilities will ensure for all Alber­ tans a standard of diagnostic and treatment care available to few on this planet. The rural hospital program will, of course, complement the government's policy of spreading the benefits of our economic well-being around the prov­ ince by decentralization. Mr. Speaker, housing is becoming a particular problem all over this continent. The rapid increase in land, con­ struction, and servicing costs alone have added to the burden.

The increased interest charges make the addi­ tional programs announced by the hon. Minister of Housing and Public Works more than welcome and all the more significant, especially to those people who are at that particular economic borderline for living in their own homes. The increases in the core housing incentive program and the Alberta family home purchase program will be welcome in all those developing areas of the province. The government programs for housing must, however, be taken in context.

The municipal debt reduc­ tion program, the natural gas price protection program, and others significantly reduce the overall cost of housing

March 21, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 21 in this province, compared with the rest of the country. It's not only in housing that this government gives assistance with interest rates. The very significant begin­ ning farmer program and the direct farm lending pro­ gram, along with the waiving of the 1 per cent service charge on Agricultural Development Corporation loans: all give considerable assistance to the farmers of this province. Albertans also benefit, of course, from the lowest income tax rates and the absence of sales tax and gasoline tax.

All these things have enabled Albertans to have the largest increase in disposable income of any Canadian group. The favorable reception by the building industry to the recently announced programs is indeed indicative of the importance of these, which total over half a billion dol­ lars. The other housing programs that will be announced will further indicate this government's commitment, and it is indeed a large commitment, to the limitation of interest costs and other housing costs, insofar as we can within the limits set by events that are outside our control in this House. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make special mention of the pioneer home repair program. This program enables our senior citizens to continue living in their own houses, to maintain their independence. We all know how much independence means to those senior citizens. As a doctor, I can really appreciate the program and what it does for them as people and for their social well-being. In the educational field, particular mention should be made of the special education services to the disabled and handicapped.

The proposed programs for the special problems of the multisensory handicapped will complete the spectrum in this province. In the postsecondary sys­ tem, I would like to congratulate the government on the emphasis on counselling, academic upgrading, and train­ ing for those who, for social or disability reasons, have tended to be left out of the mainstream of our economic progress. This particular emphasis will fit in very well with some of the proposals from the Select Committee on Workers' Compensation.

While I do not want to be thought of as giving advance notice of that particular report, I think the people of Alberta will find it a very significant document in the continuing development of programs for those injured in the workplace. The subject of physically or socially disadvantaged people leads me to consideration of the programs for those who, through no fault of their own, are not able to take full

part in our society without additional help. This government has a record of programs to assist the social­ ly, mentally, or physically handicapped of which we can all be proud. The vigorous attempts through various programs to provide social services where and when they are needed, to get mentally handicapped adults and chil­ dren into society so far as the individual is capable, and to assist the physically disabled to be as independent as possible have all been very much appreciated by those individuals and their families. Mr.

Speaker, as a doctor, I welcome the appointment of the Cavanagh committee to review The Child Welfare Act and The Social Care Facilities Licensing Act. In particular, I welcome the third responsibility of that committee, to report on: the need to establish guidelines in respect to the limits of treatment policies, procedures and practices that may be authorized and the methods that may be used to supervise such guidelines . . .

I was also glad to hear so much attention paid in the Speech from the Throne to transportation systems, which are so important in a trading province such as ours, and in particular to the large part of our economy that is based upon agriculture. The port facilities at Prince Rupert, the additional hopper cars, and the use of the inland terminals in a co-ordinated and intelligent fashion will do a lot to enable the farmers of this province to continue their occupation and to benefit from it.

The increased programs for highways will be of particular benefit in the rural areas of the province where, because of the natural evolvement of the railways away from local service, both passenger and freight, we're becoming more and more dependent upon the highway system. Lastly, in relation to the Department of Municipal Affairs, I am sure the recent proposals by the hon. minister will receive a lot of attention and comment from the farmers and acreage dwellers of this province. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to continue with some remarks about our country and our province, where we are in our history, and hopefully where we are going. This is a young country, and this province is younger still. But with that youth and the dynamic nature that goes with it, we have now been organized as a country and as a province long enough to have developed some wisdom. I came to this country, especially to this province, because of the opportunity to be my own person, to work hard, and to derive some reasonable benefits from that work for myself and for my family.

I came here also because there was the opportunity to contribute to a growing society in its developing times. That is partly why my wife, Anne, and I went to a small town of 200 in a construction camp in the bush. Now, 24 years later, that town has 8,000 people. It has been a unique experience to take

part in the development of that community, in the early years sometimes as a bricklayer's helper, building a swimming pool with volunteer labor, or learning a little about welding in order to construct children's parks and the swings and roundabouts. Later on, I served on the recreation board and took an active

part in helping the cultural development of the community, which has blos­ somed considerably under the programs of the depart­ ment of Culture of this province. That type of opportunity to pioneer does not exist in many places in this world. It's one of the things that helps to make our province unique, and the continuing pioneer­ ing has brought people from all over this world. Indeed, in one of the bush camps near Hinton some years ago there were 60 men, and you required 17 languages to communicate with them. These people have come to a province that gives them opportunities, rights, and re­ sponsibilities.

It gives them freedoms and, in return, the vast majority give this province their love and allegiance. They also give these particular emotions to the country as a whole. Mr. Speaker, our country is always described as vast — one sees that in everything that is written about it — and indeed it is. For that reason alone, it is impossible for it to be a monolithic society. In order to survive as an entity itself, this country has to rely on the strengths and indivi­ dualities of its regions, their variations in society and culture.

The economic and social strength of Canada will always have to rest on the strength of its parts. There is a principle called synergism, and its medical definition is: the combined action of two or more drugs producing an effect greater than the sum of the effects of the agents individually. I am sure that if this country has the wisdom — and hopefully it will — to let that principle take effect, we will find it's a much better way of building a country

22 ALBERTA HANSARD March 21, 1980 than some of the other principles used in the past, and some advocated more recently. There have been, Mr. Speaker, four significant dates at 25-year intervals in this province's history. They have been significant not just because they were the founding year and the anniversaries of that foundation, but also for the fact that although this province was created in 1905, it was not created equally with the older provinces in this country.

It was not until our Silver Jubilee in 1930 that we acquired our natural resources and minerals in right of the province as opposed to the country as a whole. At the time of our Golden Jubilee in 1955, the national oil policy was introduced which allowed for the use of Alberta crude oil west of the Ottawa River, at a price which was then somewhat above that of imported oil. That price differential was similar to that which had historically existed for other provinces' products — cloth­ ing, automobiles, appliances, agricultural machinery.

Canadians had historically paid those additional prices in order to support home industry. In this year, our Diamond Jubilee, we are once more looking at the problems of oil pricing, the pricing of mineral resources, and the real meaning of provincial ownership of those resources. I am sure that succeeding speakers in this debate will have a lot more to say on that subject. Mr. Speaker, I said earlier that I would like to address the problems of where we are going, both as a province and as a country. In the short term, the Speech from the Throne gives direction to the province.

I would hope that next month a similar speech from the Parliament in Ottawa will give direction to the whole country. In the long term, because of our strengths and our resolve, Alberta will play a much greater

part in this Confedera­ tion. To try to prevent that would be like trying to hold back the laws of nature. It might be a good idea if we as legislators were to reread Harmony in Diversity. The 29 recommendations in that policy book have considerable significance for where this province and this country are going in the next quarter century. In view of the fact that nationalism is not always a bad emotion, how much better it would be if in the 1981 census one could write — instead of German Canadian, Italian Canadian, or Uk­ rainian Canadian — Canadian Albertan or Canadian Quebecois.

I'm not saying we should forget the culture that our forebears brought with them to this country and this province, whether it be Ukrainian dancing, Chinese art, Indian days, or even the skirl of the bagpipes. Our chil­ dren should all be proud of their cultural background — a very multicultural background in this particular province. I'm not a believer in the melting pot theory. I feel that the individual differences between people make us all richer. I don't feel that we should become one common people with one common heritage of culture, ignoring our background. We have to try, Mr.

Speaker, to achieve the balance between our country, our province, and our cul­ tural heritage which will be of the most benefit to this province in the future. It has been said to me that when many children of Scots immigrants speak of home they mean Scotland,

whereas when our two sons speak of home they mean Canada and, in particular, Alberta and the foothills west of Hinton. To Anne and me that's always been a compli­ ment for the feelings we've managed to put into our two sons, partly by accident, partly by intention. Mr. Speaker, I've spoken at some length and with more emotion than Scots are usually said to express in public. I've done so for three real reasons. First, this is the Diamond Jubilee of our province.

It is right that we should look back and recognize the pioneers who built this province, their work, their faith in the future, and their commitment to that future, and that we should express our gratitude for the province they have left to us. Secondly, because this is our anniversary year, we should be looking forward not just to the coming year but to the coming decade and quarter century, and we should determine how we are to continue looking after this province for future generations. The last and most important reason, Mr.

Speaker, is that in this anniversary year all the people of this prov­ ince should renew our faith in and our commitment to Alberta. We must do this so that 25 years from now other representatives in this Assembly can honestly say that these 25 years continued the regard for freedom, the opportunity, and the deep concern for others that have marked the first 75 years of our existence. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. PAHL: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to second the motion proposed by my colleague the hon. Member for Edson, thanking His Honour the Lieutenant- Governor for the Speech from the Throne. Mr.

Speaker, I would first like to thank the Premier for honoring the new constituency of Edmonton Mill Woods and its representative by inviting me to second this motion. Mr. Speaker, having moved from the centre left to the extreme right of your field of vision in the short space of one year, and without having concern for your keen abili­ ty to recognize the desires of upper benchers to partici­ pate in the question period henceforth, I'd simply like to pay sincere tribute to your wisdom and sense of fairness, and my pride in having a person of your stature and character as a legislative colleague.

I would like to compliment my colleague the hon. Member for Edson for a thoughtful and well-delivered motion. Of course the challenge of following that presen­ tation is a formidable one. I must say, Mr. Speaker, is not our system a wonderful one, for it provides us all within this Assembly with the opportunity to enjoy such a delightful foreign accent in our Chamber. As a fellow freshperson, I would also like to acknowledge the assist­ ance and, I feel at times, charity of our seasoned col­ leagues in the House during our first year. Mr.

Speaker, as a second-generation Albertan repre­ senting a brand-new urban constituency, I shall in se­ conding the motion perhaps be able to provide a com­ plementary balance to my country colleague. However, having been born and raised in Hanna, Alberta, and having lived and operated a business in Edson, Alberta, I hope my perspective will not solely reflect that of a city dweller.

In my view that is the way it should be, for our cities are and will always be dependent upon our rural areas for our well-being in terms of food stuffs, supply of clean water, and for the outside living space and the opportunity to savor the varied and vigorous climate of Alberta. Mr. Speaker, it is also important to recognize that as Alberta goes, so goes Edmonton Mill Woods. That phrase could be repeated for every constituency in the province.

It is this understanding in responding to the Speech from the Throne: we as legislators must remember that notwithstanding our individual constituents' and constituencies' very legitimate needs and desires, we have

March 21, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 23 a responsibility to the province as a community and indeed as part of the community of Canada. Let us hope and pray that that same perspective prevails across this country, particularly with reference to the forthcoming negotiations with the new federal administration involv­ ing the pricing of Alberta's oil and natural gas resources. Let us hope, Mr.

Speaker, that Alberta's very generous offer to accept less than commodity price for these rapid­ ly depleting non-renewable resources — in fact, I should say, considerably less than commodity prices for a phase- in period, and ultimately 10 to 15 per cent less than our American neighbors and competitors have to pay for their oil and gas — will not be forgotten. These staged-in, less than full commodity prices will enable Canadian industries across the country, most notably in central Canada, to keep a competitive edge on foreign industries.

In addition, our commitment to accelerate the develop­ ment of our oil sands and heavy oil resources at consider­ able cost to our citizens should not be forgotten by our federal administration and by our fellow Canadians. In short, the very generous package that our Premier and the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources made on behalf of all Albertans to the rest of Canada should not be forgotten, for Canada cannot continue to mortgage its future and the future of our children and their children by refusing to face up to the reality of world commodity prices for oil.

Speaking of mortgages, the effect of the federal gov­ ernment's $11 billion-plus deficit and lack of initiative on natural gas imports partly explains where and why high mortgage rates are where they are now. In this 75th Anniversary year, I would like to reflect upon the very fine quality of life we have achieved as Albertans, particularly in our larger urban centres. I be­ lieve this reflection is important, Mr.

Speaker, for in the face of accelerated growth and development, which will be caused in some measure by our commitment to the rest of Canada for increased oil production, there will be in some ways a threat to the quality of life in our cities. It is not insignificant in this time where across North America, and the world, I guess, cities are thought of as not really very nice places to live. Our capital city of Edmonton and of course our other major cities, the names of which will remain anonymous in my nonpartisan speech, are very fine places indeed.

We in Edmonton Mill Woods do not quite have the Rocky Mountains on our doorstep, as does the hon. Member for Edson, but we do have the magnificent North Saskatche­ wan River valley, enhanced by the Capital City Park, which extends through the greater part of our city. Not only do we have a natural bounty outside our door, but we have nature's beauty indoors all year round at the Muttart Conservatory, locally known, I understand, as "pyramid power". Mr.

Speaker, the cultural, artistic, and sports amenities that so enhance the quality of Edmonton's life are so well known and acknowledged that I'll not cause any of my southern colleagues embarrassment by going further. In fact, I can see by the smiles and grimaces that I've already dropped that glove.

Lest some of my colleagues think that in my unrestrained enthusiasm for the quality of life in Edmonton Mill Woods I have forgotten my other responsibilities, the lapel pin I have below the 75th Anniversary pin, and my associate membership in the Calgary Olympic Development Association, confirms that I'm supporting Calgary's bid for the 1988 Winter Olympic Games.

Even with our well-endowed university, the Alberta Ballet Company, the Citadel Theatre complex and, of course, other theatre companies in the city, the Capital City Park, the soon-to-be-opened Strathcona Science Park, and programs such as the major cultural/recreation facilities development program, the pressure of very rapid growth and development has not been without its prob­ lems for the city. With increasing population and aff­ luence come an increasing incidence of social and crimi­ nal misdemeanors.

This is notwithstanding our Solicitor General's very worth-while preventive programs such as Check Stop, neighborhood watch, and the block parent program. Mr. Speaker, coming as I do from a small town, I feel that perhaps part of the problem of quality of life in our cities is that it is difficult to sustain a sense of community and neighborhood in a large city. I said difficult, but not impossible. For example, in the constituency of Edmon­ ton Mill Woods there are seven active and vibrant community leagues, two of which did not exist a year ago.

In addition, the community of Edmonton Mill Woods has an active block parent program, mother's day out programs, babysitting registries, and scouting and guiding programs — all of which are examples of how we have been able to develop within the city a sense of community and neighborhood which is so important to quality of life beyond well-being. Mr.

Speaker, with the 75th Anniversary and the Homecoming 1980 celebrations, I feel we have tremen­ dous opportunities to use the occasion of a well-deserved sense of celebration to re-establish within our communi­ ties the sense of community and caring that goes with knowing one's neighbors and their children by name, and the awareness and concern that automatically follow.

The opportunity to use 75th Anniversary matching grants on existing government programs is particularly gratifying in Mill Woods, where we are probably at a 20 per cent annual growth rate as compared to a projected 3.5 per cent growth rate for the rest of the province. Because of that, we are desperately short of the facilities which, in more stable times, would have evolved with the growth of our population at a more measured pace. It is a tribute to our government, Mr.

Speaker, that the housing programs in place, such as the core housing incentive program, the Alberta family home purchase program, and the co-operative housing action program, have been able to respond further to the needs of our rapidly growing population. As Mill Woods is an area of our city and province which has been the central focus of the co-operative housing action program, a few com­ ments on this very worth-while program are in order. The co-operative housing action program, CHAP, helps people to help themselves in realizing the dream of home ownership.

Through a training course and technical assistance on call, people who otherwise might not be able to afford their own homes learn to become their own building contractors and, depending upon their hammer- and-saw skills, their own subcontractors. Talk about a commitment to community and neighborhood: these people have it. After finishing their own homes, having organized a neighborhood fence-building or lawn-sodding bee, where do you find them? They're out building the community league, of course. Mr.

Speaker, I submit that this imaginative program is an excellent example of how this government, in helping people to help themselves, builds the strong social fabric so important to a high quality of life in our cities. It is thus gratifying to see an intention to continue strong emphasis on housing in the face of continuing economic

24 ALBERTA HANSARD March 21, 1980 growth and population increases. Mr. Speaker, with regard to the mortgage rate con­ cerns, which I share, it is worth while to put some perspective on the matter of high interest rates as they have impact on home-owners, home buyers, or business operators, be they farmers or in other jobs or wealth- creating areas of activity. First, interest rates are simply the costs or rent charged to use or borrow money. Today's interest rates reflect the annual rate of inflation and the earning power of the capital asset of money more dramatically than in the past.

For example, in the United States an interest rate of 20 per cent with an annual inflation rate of 18 per cent yields a 2 per cent return on capital. The responsibility to set interest rates and, more impor­ tantly, help control domestically induced inflation rests with the federal government. If an emergency debate would teach the federal government what every house­ hold in this country knows — that you can't spend more than you earn — I would support it.

If an emergency debate on interest rates in this Assembly could teach the federal government, with respect, that when you try to rob Peter to pay Ayatollah you're threatening this coun­ try . . . Until that seemingly frosty Friday — with regard to the weather outside — I would draw hon. members' atten­ tion, as has the hon. Member for Edson, to the very significant initiatives this government has made and is continuing to make in the areas of housing, assistance to farmers, and assistance to small businesses. My point, Mr.

Speaker, is that interest rate shielding, beyond im­ posing a tremendous cost upon all Albertans, may create inequities of its own, and furthers the illusion that somehow one is able to live beyond one's means. We must deal with the very serious problem of interest rate increases on mortgages, of course, but in the right con­ text, in harmony with other government programs. It is also gratifying to note that with the prospect of continued economic growth for our province, we are able as a government to direct and balance that growth for maxi­ mum benefit to all Albertans.

I compliment the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower on his decision to provide a permanent home for Athabasca University at Athabasca. How appropriate that a distance-learning institution serving Albertans in all corners of the province be located at very nearly the geographic centre of our province in the beautiful setting of the town of Athabasca.

Another example showing a clear understanding of balanced growth or, if you will, the logistical limits to decentralization of economic activity, was the decision of our government to assist the city of Edmonton in the establishment of the Edmonton Research and Develop­ ment Park in southeast Edmonton.

With a nucleus of high technology and highly skilled people in Edmonton and Alberta today, and a broad spectrum of research opportunities from agriculture to heavy oil, the estab­ lishment of the Edmonton Research and Development Park within the city of Edmonton was an appropriate response to the need to have a physical location or focus for this developing critical mass.

The presence of a highly prestigious brain industry within the boundaries of Ed­ monton Mill Woods will encourage technology transfer from the research world to industry, and has the promise of spawning other high technology, non-polluting indus­ tries for our city and province. The Edmonton Research and Development Park will also complement the Alberta Heritage Foundation for Medical Research, the Alberta Research Council, and other focuses of research and development within the Edmonton area, such as North­ ern Telecom's planned communications research devel­ opment laboratory and worldwide group headquarters.

Mr. Speaker, the priority placed on hospital construc­ tion in the throne speech underscores the fact that with­ out our health, the opportunity for material well-being is unimportant. The quality of our medical practitioners, as well as their ability for speaking, is renowned.

Construc­ tion of facilities such as the Walter MacKenzie Health Sciences Centre in Edmonton and the Southern Alberta Cancer Centre in Calgary to support medical research needs, and more traditional hospital construction such as the hospital planned for Edmonton Mill Woods support that medical competence, as well as anticipating and meeting the medical care needs of all Albertans. Mr. Speaker, before concluding my remarks I would like to express my enthusiasm for the continuation of the identification, documentation, and preservation of our historic resources.

In our young and dynamic province, things are buoyant. Let's face it: in a material sense, if something gets too old or too small, it's all too easy to tear it down and replace it. At the same time, I think we tend to place too little value on our history because none of it is really very old. Witness to this are the dramatic changes to our cities' skylines and the loss of buildings, some of historic significance, we know, but perhaps doomed or damned simply because they weren't old enough to qualify as historic sites.

The development of a five-year master plan to set priorities for historic site designation and development is a very positive step to­ ward saving a presence and a quality of life that, once gone, can never be replaced. Mr. Speaker, with the indulgence of the Assembly, I would like to read something said by one of our predeces­ sors that may well apply today as we open the door to the 1980s: . . . I have firm faith in the great future on store for the province and I believe all are ready to assume a share of the work of promoting this prosperity what­ ever may be the responsibilities.

Those of us who were here twenty odd years ago were doubtful of the future at times, but now the farmers of the West are confident of the reward of their labor; year by year new settlers are pouring in to develop the land even more extensively than in the past. We can expect more development in the next five years than in all the years of the past. Those were the words of Alberta's first Lieutenant- Governor, His Honour George Hedley Vicars Bulyea, at the swearing-in ceremony of Alberta's first government 75 years ago. In conclusion, Mr.

Speaker, the Speech from the Throne in our province's 75th Anniversary year, with our government's emphasis on the four priorities of hospital construction, housing, manpower training, and highways and roads, bears witness to our province's continued bright future. It also bears witness to the leadership of our Premier and our cabinet, where balanced economic growth and quality of life needs are met in a balanced way. It is with pride, Mr. Speaker, that I second the motion put before the House by my colleague the hon. Member for Edson. Thank you. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to adjourn the debate.

March 21, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 25 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, Oh! Where's your emergency? DR. BUCK: You guys don't care about mortgage rates. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. [interjections] Order please. Having heard the motion by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, do you all agree? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, with respect to House business on Monday, apart from continuation of the debate commenced today in response to the Speech from the Throne, it's proposed to convene the Committee of Supply in order to examine

Schedule A of Interim Supply, which was provided to the House today. After that, an interim appropriation Bill would be introduced. [At 12:12 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 5, the House adjourned to Monday at 2:30 p.m.]

26 ALBERTA HANSARD March 21, 1980