Manitoba Hansard — 4 May 1987 (Sitting 40B, 33rd Legislature, 2nd Session)

33-2-40b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA Monday, 4 May, 1987. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TR ANSPORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN , C. Baker: Commit tee, come to order, please.

Section 3. Planning and Design - the Mem ber for Roblin- Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A question to the Min ister with regard to Hi ghway 45 at the junction of 45 and Vista and 359. Can you in dicate what presently is taking place in that area? • Apparently there is some move to change the particular •

section of road at th at junction to elimi nate the dangerous aspect of the junction between 359 and 45. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to get some information. This was in the carry-over program last year that the member is talking about and it's still in there for completion this year, in the carry-over program, and staff tells me that they have reviewed one design as a result of this being included in the program last year. They weren't happy with it, they're going to go back and do some more work on it.

So it's not at the stage where we can actually determine whether there are additional acquisitions that have to be required and have it built. So we didn't include anything in that for a subsequent phase this year because of that. It's to im prove the intersection at 45 and 359 as the member has suggested. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Minis ter, in the acquisition of t right-of-way or the design of a different intersection, is there any truth to the rumour that there may be acquisition of land to do a by-pass with 45 around the Vista area? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I would think that would be relatively expensive and that's not what we've provided for in the budget. I'm informed that it's not a by-pass, but there may be some work on 45 that's required, but nothing major, as it sounds, a by-pass. But we would have to have an opportunit y, I think, for the Member for Roblin Russell to maybe meet and discuss this when we have the plans in front of us. If he'd like to do that at some point in the future because it's difficult at this point to comment. No one has a plan with them or one that they've reviewed in the last short while.

As I indicated earlier, there was a plan there that wasn't satisfactory and they've sent it back for further study and drafting. MR. L. DERKACH: To the Min ister, the reason I asked the question is that there are two residences located on the north side of Vista which could be affected if 1614 in fact the highway were moved. So when a potential pla n has been arrived at, if the Min ister or his department would get in touch with me, I could probably assist in at least conveying some of the concerns of those people that will be affected directly by a potential move of that nature. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I would attempt to do that and if there is some way this is overlooked, if the member is aware of activity there, he should certainly feel free to bring forward his concerns at that time. MR. L. DERKACH: Another question. With regard to again, 359 and the Birdtail Valley where a bridge had been broken through about two years ago and a temporary set of culverts had been installed, has there been any move from Design and Planning to replace or design a bridge for that area that would be able to last the spring flooding and carry the traffic through the spring season? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: We're getting into some of these projects that require a lot of detail, and are relatively small but very im portant for the area, and I've had this matter raised with me before and asked for a status report. I can't exactly tell him at this particular point what is taking this long to get this done, in terms of the acquisition of the additional right-of-way at that point. I believe there's some alternatives that are being looked at.

That was also im pacting on the requirement for land in the reserve, and they didn't want to affect the reserve, so therefore other alternatives were looked at, and he feels that there's progress, the staff feels that there's progress being made now and that we'll be in a position to build it in the next season, the next construction year. But I realize that this is of some urgency for the people there, and we'll make every attempt to expedite this. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr.

Min ister, if I can impress the urgency of the situation upon you and your department in this area, because there is a school bus that uses that particular

section of road. In the spring of the year, when the bus can't get through, it means that parents have to drive children 10 miles to get to a school that's only three or four miles away. But more imp ortantly, I think, there's also a fairly dangerous hill that accesses that valle y, that needs to be looked at and there needs to be some redesigning in the road that goes through the vall ey.

I think that, because of the people that live on the other side of the valley, there are some that are going to have children coming to school very soon as well, and they are a little anxious about what is happen ing with th at particular piece of road. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I appreciate the member's concerns and we'll take them into consideration, my staff and I.

Monday, 4 May, 1987 MR. L. DERKACH: I have some other questions that I'd like to ask with regard to my area, and the construction proposals for this year. I noticed that Hig hway 366, from Grandview south to the Inglis area, has not been slated for any improvement in construction or maintenance . HON. J. PLOHMAN: What's the number again? MR. L. DERKACH: Hig hway 366, or Provincial Road 366, south of Grandview to Roblin, or to Inglis, I should say. This particular piece of road is important because it's probably the major shortcut, if you'd like to call it that, around the Riding Mountain Park. As you know, Mr.

Min ister, your go vernment categorically rejected a road through the park, which had been requested by many residents, and I might say, it's a joint project, as I understand it, between the Provincial and Federal Government - a road through the park would be. But this Provincial Road 366 is a major thoroughfare for people on the north side and south side of Riding Mountain. There hasn't been any construction done on this road now for at least 10 years, and I'm wondering if the Min ister has travelled that road recently and has taken a look at the deteriorating condition of that particular road. HON . J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, first of all, there was no project for a road. There have been requests from residents in the area of Rossburn and Grandview for a number of years to put a road through Riding Moun tain Nationa l Park, but everyone kn ows the Federal Government's parks policies with regard to that, so it's really a case of putting forward a lobbying resolution that a former Member for Roblin- Russell did in the House, and if the member interprets that as categorically refusing to - because we did not support Mr. McKenzie, the former member's resolution - I don't think that is appropriate.

What it was meant to do, I guess, was to lobby his federal counterparts at the time, to urge them to loosen up their policies on national parks. So it is really in the federal hands, so it's not something that we, at this time, should be accused of categorically dismis sing. But in any event, as far as 366 is concerned, the answer is no, I haven't travelled it late ly, but we do have acquisition of right-of-way in the program on it, and it hasn't been completed, if the member is referring to that section, it's in the carry-over program, 366. MR. L. DERKACH: Well, yes, that's part of it, but Mr.

Minis ter, when I take a look at the amount of construction that you have slated for my constituency, if you want to look at an area, certainly we fall far below the average. I'm wondering what has to happen in order to get the attention of the Min ister, at least to look at some of our major provincial roads and I point to 366 as a major one which is in terrible condition right at the present time. It should have work done on it two or three years ago or even longer than that. A part of it had been started under a former admin istration and then was stopped and nothing has happened on that road since.

Now, there are major problems with the road during the winter season, major problems with it during the spring season as well. This is probably the worst time of the year to travel that stretch of road and I would urge the Minis ter to have his staff take a look at the condition of that particular stretch of road. HON. J. PLOHMAN: If the memb er, Mr. Chairman, is suggesting that insofar as PR's are concerned in his constituency, that this is one of the top priorities, I will certainly consider that information.

The fact is that it cannot be upgraded though until the acquisition is completed and we have to recognize that there are projects in acquisition stage that sometimes get hung up with disputes with land owners and so on. I would think that this one will be ready for consideration for construction next construction year. Sin ce the acquisition is in the carry-over, we should be able to complete it for consideration of the next construction. MR. L. DERKA CH: While I've got the floor, Mr. Min ister, I might as well do my whole constituency and then you can be rid of me.

Last year there was some work done on Highw ay 45 • in terms of asphalt from Russell to Rossburn. This, as • you know, is a fairly imp ortant piece of road. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR. L. DERKA CH: Because of the

section from Rossburn east, the heavy traffic is tending to pound that road up pretty badly because, as I understand, it was a cold pour that was laid on that stretch of road and isn't holding up to the traffic. Are there any plans to continue with the asphalting east of Rossburn in the foreseeable future? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Okay, just to clarify, the

section from Russell to Rossburn had a two -inch overlay with regular bituminous overlay to determine whether the two inch would stand up and would prevent the need for the severe restrictions as I ind icated last year. I believe that was the case this year. I'm advised that this year we did not go to restrictions of 250 pounds, it went to only 350 or 60 kilograms so that means that it served its purpose. It's a question of how long that • can stand up. If it seems to be a worthwhile process, • it would seem to me that the rest of that

section of 45 to Sandy Lake or past to No. 10 would be a candidate for the same treatment in the future, but we want to determine how well that stands up and see whether it's cost effective to do that. MR. L. DERKACH: As you know, Mr. Min ister, that particular stretch of road is used quite heavily by trucks bringing canola to CSP and Harrowby. Therefore, that stretch from Russell to Rossburn will withstand the test this year. I think it's pretty safe to say that the rest of the

section should be completed. One other question on that road is, as you know, the other provincial roads, Hig hway 83 and 16, have a speed limit of 100 kilome tres per hour on them. Hi ghway 45, which joins them at Russell, is limited to 90 kilometres per hour as I found out unfortunately one Friday afternoon. I'm wondering whether there are any plans to raise the standards of that particular road to 100 kilome tres per hour. 1615

Monday, 4 May, 1987 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Not at the moment. We have a grid network of the major provincial routes, major trunk highways, that have been upgraded to 100 kilometres per hour and there are no plans that we have at the present time to increase all trunk highways even to this speed of 100. It's just the major interconnecting routes so that there is a network of 100 kilometres for travelling longer distances - through traffic, tourism traffic and so on - but not the PR's and not even a majority of PTH's. As it stands now, anyway, we have a plan for them and we have a map with it.

I don't have it present with me toda y, but it outli nes the grid and the major routes. I think we've pretty well accomplished that now with the Traffic Board dealing with the major routes in the province. It would be Hig hways 59, 12 , 75, 1, 10, 6, 2, 3, I believe, and 83 and 16. Those are the major routes that are going to be, and that's as far as we intended to go. MR. L. DERKACH: I appreciate that and I guess I have to thank the Min ister for considering upgrading 83 to 100 kilometres per hour, but we are into the same problem that we were in a year ago when 16 was 100 kilometres an hour and 83 was 90.

Truckers right now, and tourists, for that matter, will not take 45 because it's 90 kilometres an hour and yet those, whether it's 16 , 83 or 45, all lead toward the northwest and into the Russell area and on into Saskatchewan and up into the tourist areas of Northern Manitoba. I'm wondering whether some consideration can be given to increase that stretch between Minn edosa or Sandy Lake and Russell or the Saskatchewan border on 45 to 100 kilo metres an hour. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: What we tried to do as well is to have an interconnecting route with Saskatchewan that was designated 100 to make the Manitoba highway in this province also 100, so there wasn't that switch, and we have done that in the case of 45. Highw ays 16 and 5 are 100 al ready. So we don't have that problem in coming into here. I don't know whether 45 would warrant it anymore than a lot of other routes. I guess it's a matter of looking at the condition of highways, too.

I feel quite strongly that we may even have some of our provincial trunk highways now that need some upgrading such as, say, for example, 44 near Beausejour. It's in terrible condition at the present time; yet it's 100 kil ometres an hour, and I'm not sure that we should have all of them at 100 when they're in that condition. So I would want to be very careful about moving on a lot of these secondary PTH 's to 100 kilometres an hour. MR. L. DERKACH: This will be my final comment on that particular item. The reason I make the case for High way 45 going to 100 kilometres per hour is that it is ... HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Much shorter than 16 ? MR. L. DERKACH: It's shorter than 16. But, also, it leads directly into the Saskatchewan highway and, therefore, people coming from Sask atchewan to Manitoba find themselves on a highway that's 100 kilometres an hour and think that it's 100 kil ometres until they get 10 or 15 miles into Hi ghway 45 and a policeman catches them. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, we'll look at that and certainly get some comments from the staff in the Traffic Court on it. MR. L. DERKACH: I appreciate that. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I would like to say that the area that I represent is the smalle st constituency in size of all the rural constitue ncies, that we have a very dens e population over there. We have more automobiles registered in tha t constituency than any other constituency has. HON. J. PLOHMAN: More voters? MR. A. BROWN: More automobil es. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Oh, sorry. MR. A. BROWN: The Min ister is not aware, really, of what is happening in my constituency. Henceforth, we have more traffic on every artery than there is in any other constituency. Mr.

Chairman, I must say that I am rather dismayed when I look at this year's Hig hways' projects and I see that all that we're going to get is 9.9 kilometres of base and ashphalt surface treatment on 20 1. This was supposed to have been done last year for heaven's sake. This artery carries a lot of traffic, but that's the only thing that we have to look forward to this year. Ho pefully, the Department of Hig hways is going to be able to look after it this year. They certainly didn't look after it last year when they only did about 6 kilome tres of road on that particular stretch of highway.

So, hopefully, they' ll be able to complete those 9.9 kilometres. But the matter is this: we are getting absolutely no attention into roads in the constituency of Rhineland. We have such a heavy traffic load on there. For instance, the PTH No. 428, a couple of years ago the count on PTH 428 from Winkler to Roland was 395 and we had start of construction. The basic construction on the road has been done but nothing has been done since then.

Since then all the heavy traffic on that road, this road is being absolutely ruined because the Department of Hig hways is doing nothing to comple te the construction of that road. So you have to just about start from scratch in order to get this road into the condition that it ought to be. It' s a heavy traffic count on that road. I think that if the Min ister was ever going to check with Autopac, I bet you the most windshields broken in any of the constituencies is in the constituency of Rhineland because we have absolutely terri ble conditions.

The PR's are just not being looked after; maintenance is alm ost nil. I would wonder if the Min ister could tell us why the constituency of Rhineland is negl ected the way that it is. 1616

Monday, 4 May, 1987 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, I don't know. I'm just trying to get an idea here of all of the roads. I guess I could go through all the roads that are planned in the area and the total number of dollars there for the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Okay. We've got it right there. It's a zilch for Rhineland. Right on that sheet of paper over there, it's zilch. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The member mentioned 428, and I can get some information on 428 and 201, I believe MR. A. BROWN: Two major arteries. HON. J. PLOHMAN: ... that there's a contract on last year. MR. A.

BROWN: 201 there's a contract on last year; not 428. 428 has been totally ignored. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The one on 201 is $1 million right there. The member forgets that he's eaten up a big chunk of money on one road in his area there. That's 1/87 of it right there of the whole thing. That one didn't get started. It was through no fault of ours that it didn't get done last year. The contract was let but the contractor wasn't able to get started on that. So sometimes these things aren't really to be blamed on the department. Is Winkler in the member's constituency? MR. A. BROWN: Right. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, Winkler, we've got a program in there on Winkler access and there's a grade base in bituminous pavement, an urban four-lane

section that's going into that area this year. It's nearly half-a million dollars that's going in there. There's also a structure on 32 in the Town of Winkler that is south of PTH 14, a narrow structure there. We're going to rep lace tha t one. It's in the program as wel l for replacement. I guess members should look at some of the good news in the program instead of just the black side of thin gs. Mo rden- Wink ler, is that als o the member's constituency, or is that partly Orchard's, the Member for Pembina? MR. A. BROWN: Now partly Orchard and partly myself. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes.

We're finishing up the design there for a four-lane preparation for between those two commun ities. MR. A. BROWN: How many dollars? Twenty five? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Oh, about $50,000 or so. MR. A. BROWN: Okay. The Min ister's been telling me now that they've been spending a million dollars on the 201; this is over a period of two years. I would like to see how much money we spent in the Mini ster 's area compared to the constituency of Rhineland. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I just don't have it handy. MR. A.

BROWN: And I will tell you, you are going to see that there is going to be one hell of a big difference between the money spent in the Min ister's area as compared to the constituency of Rhineland. Over a period of six years when we have seen nothing of any major construction happening. I will tell you, the people are not going to be standing for this because this is the area where you are deriving a lot of taxes from; this is the area where you have more automobiles than any other constituency there registered.

It's an area we have intense traffic, where every artery is being used and we are not receiving the cooperation that we need from this particular department . It is an absolute di sgrace, Mr. Chairman, it's an absolute disgrace, the way that the Department of Highw ays is treating the constituency of Rhineland. - HON. J. PLOHMAN: The member can throw out figures as to how much attention he's got, but the fact is that historically, the emphasis has changed from area to area in the province. MR. A. BROWN: That's right. Nothing in Rhineland; everything in Dauphin. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet tells me that a few years ago in some period from 1978 to'81, '77 to'81 there was no work done in the Lac du Bonne t area at all. Then there's the member for, wily old fellow, he used to watch these things pretty closely, he was the Mem ber for Ste. Rose before the member here got elected in Ste. Rose. He tells me he went through a period of drought where there wasn't a road in Ste. Rose. I don't think there's been more equitable treatment of the whole province than we had in the last couple of years.

If we look at the figures - all of the districts are getting - some signi ficant attention. Perhaps in some areas we're having to put a little more emphasis on PTH 's because they have such an extensive network developed in those areas over the years, where there's been so much attention paid to the roads at sometime in the past, that it requires just a lot of money to keep up those paved su rfaces on those major PTH's in those areas. So we have to put a little more emphasis on th at.

The maintenance costs in southern Manitoba in District 3, which I believe the member is located in, are much higher to achieve the same results, higher costs of aggregate and poorer subsoil conditions and soil conditions that cost a lot more money to maintain the same maintenance standards in some of those areas as well. I think the member has to consider that. MR. A. BROWN: Agreed - that building roads in my area is relatively expensive, as compared to some areas where you just dip the gravel out of the ditch, and you've got yourself a road.

In my area you have to haul gravel for 50-60 miles in order to build a road. But by the same token, Mr. 1617

Monday, 4 May, 1987 Chairman, this is absolutely no reason why we can't have some decent roads to drive on. I would just like to point out to the Min ister that all the PR's in my area, I am sure, every PR in my area is bearing more traffic than all the PTH's in his area. Because we just do have that amount of traffic over there. So this has to be taken into consideration. The Min ister has to take a look at the amount of traffic that there is on a road and guide himself accordingly. So this is really all that we're asking of the Min ister.

Take a look at where the traffic is, and for heaven's sake then do something about it. Because this is absolutely essential in an area such as ours, where you're into some pretty inten sive farming, and where a good network of roads is absolutely essential in order to market your produce in fall. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I just want to point out to the member that I guess we have to look at the whole district. There's about $7.7 million programmed in District 3, which is quite significant, although I think the Member for Morris has been swinging a little more weight there late ly.

So most of that's in Hi ghway No. 330 and 422 and Hig hway No. 3. So anyway the total is 5.3 in new projects, and 2.4 in carry-over in District 2. So it's $7.7 million programmed in there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, we are pretty well finished with Planning and Design. But as the Min ister knows, we have several members who would like to ask some questions on the roads. I'm prepared to pass Planning and Design, but I would like to entertain some additional questions on specific roads. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Okay. We can pass that.

Of course the members know that they have an opportunity under

Section 8, which is Capital, to ask all the questions they want on any specific road. If you want to deal with some of those now, I don't mind. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 92: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,020,6 00 for Hig hways and Transportation, Planning and Design and Land Surveys, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1988 -pass. No. 4. Engineering and Technical Services. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Do the members want to use some time asking about specific projects, but also before the night gets on too late to deal with some of the other areas where we have staff, like the Motor Vehicle Branch, Registrar of Motor Vehicles and the Director of Transportation, so that they wouldn't be hung up here all day, and all evening, and also Engineering and Technical Services, where we are now? MR. G. CUMMINGS: If we cou ld entertain some questions from the Member for Springfield, then we can get back into a line-by-line operation. The other Estimates going on at this time is part of our problem.

People have questions in Natural Resources. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. G. ROCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have some questions in regard to PR 405. The Min ister received a resolution some time ago from the Seine River School Board asking that the road be upgraded. The resolution read as foll ows: That the Min ister of Highw ays and Transportation be informed of the deplorable condition of Provincial Road 405, between Lorette and lle des Chenes, and that a request be made to upgrade this

section of road as soon as possible. Was any action been taken on this request from the school board? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, is the member referring to the

section between 59 and PR 206? MR. G. ROCH: PR 207. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, before the school board had sent th at letter in, we had last yea r programmed a location study and survey work for that section, because it's an awful road in terms of alignment, and the department is currently working on that. I'll endeavour to get a progress report on that location study, because it's going to have to be relocated and better alignment established for 405.

We can't really just go ahead and do construction on that road until we get that planning done because obviously it won't make much sense to upgrade that road in its present location. MR. G. ROCH: When you say upgrade, you mean that it's going to be widened? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Rebuilt. MR. G. ROCH: Rebuilt completely? And when do you foresee that happening? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'm trying to find that out. Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that they have discussed the new location plan with the municipalities in the area, and now are in the process of finalizing that plan.

They seem to be amenable to the plan that was put forward to them. So we'll be able to consider that

section then for acquisition, probably next year. MR. G. ROCH: In the meantime, there seems to be a big problem with dust control. How soon does dust control come into effect? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated in previous Estimates, di scussions in previous years - last year, I believe, especially that we had expanded the dust control program. The previous two years we have expanded it, to ensure that we had some additional treatment where it was necessary. But we have a standard.

We can't dust-treat the whole continuous length of roads so that we just put in dust treatment in front of home yards within a certain distance from the road. But we also, in particularly bad cases, we can put a more extensive treatment of dust control where there's a real problem. I don't know if this has been raised as a severe problem, and whether it's got any special 1618

Monday, 4 May, 1987 treatment in the past. It's just 300 feet from the roadway that we do that in front of homes. That's obviously a problem in many gravel areas, and that's why we expanded this a bit a couple of years ago, to provide people as much as possible with a dust-free surface, recognizing that it doesn't last and you have to do it over again every year. MR. G. ROCH: If I understand correctly, the purchase orders are normally done around this time of the year or in April, and it should be applied what - early May? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, about this time of the year they're doing it. MR. G.

ROCH: And then again around the end of the summer? Twice a year? HON. J. PLOHMAN: If needed, again. MR. G. ROCH: The problem with 405 is that it's very, very heavily travelled as your officials are no doubt aware, which is no doubt why they're planning to rebuild the road. But there's extensive car, truck, bus travel, and the dust there is just unbelievable. The sooner you get the calcium or whatever it is that you apply on there the better. Are there any other roads, apart from those in the blue book, which are scheduled for reconstruction in the upcoming years? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, Mr. Chairman.

Did the member ask for in coming years or this coming year? MR. G. ROCH: Upcoming years, apart from what's listed in here. There's a total of five projects for 31. 6 kilometres for the '87-88 year. But yet I get numerous complaints from residents all throughout the riding about different roads being in deplorable condition. So it's not only a question of reconstruction in some cases, it might be just repairs and maintenance, but there seems to be a problem in that area. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the member has indicated that he's gone through the program, and he's aware in the blue book of the various programs that are in his constituency that are proceeding this year. There is some significant activity there, I would say. But the fact is that we will never be able to meet all of the needs as outlined by the complaints that people bring forward. I explained the other day that we went through the various maintenance standards that we try to keep for most of these roads that are not being upgraded at that particular time.

But there are a numb er of others in planning stages for acquisition, and as the member knows, there are also some in planning design, survey and design stage that aren't listed in that book, that are currently under way. Once that design work is completed we go to the acquisition stage, and then to the construction stage as money permits. But there's a lot of them under way. I guess if the member wanted me to break it down by constituency and go through every road that's under consideration by the department, we could take some time and do that.

We have kind of a three-year projection on some highways that I could discuss with the member or do it here, whatever he likes. It'll take some time. MR. G. ROCH: Yes. I don't think here is the time to do it, because we've got some time constraints. But if that information is available . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. The 213 from 212 to PTH 12, 9.9 kilome tres near Hazelridge - is that in the mem ber's constituency? MR. G. ROCH: Yes. HON. J. PLOHMAN: It's grade and gravel there that's just been awarded in April of '87 - that's nearly $800,000 for that one.

There's also the one on 206, east junction of 1 to 207, asphalt surface treatment there for five kilome tres, about $550,000, and then others that are in the stages of acquisition and survey and design. Again, as I said, I'd have to break those out, because they're not listed by constituency; they're listed by district. MR. G. ROCH: Yes, in three-year plans - these would be projects which are not listed in this blue book. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. There's some tha t the department has considered. What the department gives me is about half-a-billion dolla rs worth of projects every year to look at.

They are a plan for a three-year period. The member knows that we have less than a $10 0 million to spend each year, so really it's a list of the kinds of projects that the department feels are timely and necessary, realizing, of course, that we can't do them all, even in three years. MR. G. ROCH: On a different subject here, or different area. On the north side of the Perimeter High way in the Henderson High way area, is it possible for, and this might not be the right area in which to ask the question, but is it possible for a farm vehicle to cross that area to get to his field?

For example, what I'm trying to ask is: Is a farmer who lives on one side of the Perimeter, and his field is on the other side, and there's one of those safety crossings with the rubber bars, and he's been using it for some time - it's what's known as an emergency crossing? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, there is one that we just put in at Raleigh and the Perimeter, in the north Perimeter area there. There were a couple of farmers that were affected by the change, and they had been there before the Perimeter, I believe, always with that understanding, that they would have access.

That was the way it was put to me, as I recall, and I believe that they may be given some exception, but I notice that there's a lot of other people using those emergency . . . MR. G. ROCH: Those are the people that are not supposed to. HON. J. PLOHMAN: . . . and they're not supposed to be. It's supposed to be for emergency vehicles, as the member knows. 1619

Monday, 4 May, 1987 But I think, as I recall, it was my intention that there would be some prov1s1on made for the ind ividual concern, without trying to make that a widespread practice. MR. G. ROCH: The problems that they run into is they have to go all the way down to Henderson Hig hway, which, as you are aware, is well travelled, mostly urban traffic, and it adds two miles to their trip every day, plus the fact that if they have machinery, which takes up a large part of the road, it's just impractical. The problem was, in the past, they had been allo wed to and all of a sudden, they've been told they couldn't.

HON. J. PLOHMAN: My recollection seems to be correct that this ind ividual is being afforded some special privileges to get across to his land, and the police are aware of that, and they allow him to do it. MR. G. ROCH: I have some more concerns. There are some people out in that same area who have, in some cases, two driveways on their properties and they are being told by the department that they had to remove one.

It's referred to as removal of illegal access, and I was wondering why, if they've had them for some time - especially when more than one homeowner has them - why are they told, all of a sudden, they had to remove them because there's a possibility of accidents? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think, Mr.

Chairman, there may be some un usual circumstanc es inv olv ed in the ind ividual situations that the member is referring to, and I would like to get the precise details of the ones that he's raising, and we can look into them and get back to the member, because that would not be the normal circumstances if there's really no change in status, in ownership - just everything going along the way it has for years - and suddenly they're being told to remove one of their driveways. I just can't understand it, if that would be the case.

There must be something that changed, some reason for it, so I'd have to get the nature and description of those concerns and look at them specifically. MR. G. ROCH: There has been some correspondence between the department and the individuals in question, which I have on file, and possibly I can make you aware of the details, and maybe we can get more of the specifics. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, you can talk to Claire. Claire is right here, my special assistant; you might want to give it to her right away. MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, a number of years ago, Manitoba used to have a truck with a magne t underneath it, which would drive around on all the roads in the province - try to do them once a year, some twice a a year - picking up the nails, screws, whatever you had on the road. I understand that some six or seven years ago, this unit burned, and at least at that time, it was not replaced. Has that unit been replaced now? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that there's one that's not burnt that we're using. In any event, I don't know if the other one burnt. There is one that is available and used. MR. A.

BROWN: If there is one that's available, I would sure appreciate it if we could have it around the Winkler area one of these weeks, and especially going along the 428 north as far as up to the nuisance ground. We're spending a heck of a lot of money on flat tires on that particular stretch of road. I know of my own case, one month, last year, I spent $19 0 on tire repairs alone, which is an absolutely outrageous price and this road really needs to be done. I am hopeful that the Min ister is going to see fit to send that unit out there as quickly as possible.

My next question would be: What can we do with these people who are hauling refuse to the garbage dump, who are loading half-tons, whatever, trailers, you see everything driving out there that you could possibly think of? When I asked the town police, are you going to patrol that road and see that none of this refuse is being lost; they say well that's not our jurisdiction. When I asked the RCMP, are you going to patrol that portion of the road, they say, well we have other things to do. So I can get no patrols out there.

I know that the laws are there, that if you lose stuff off your trucks, or whatever, that you're responsible and there is a substantial penalty for that. What can we do to enforce that particular situation? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Really , I think that question has to be add ressed to the police, and perhaps to the extent that the Min ister's responsible for the RCMP, perhaps the Attorney-General. He'll be really pleased if he's aware tha t I sugg ested that, but really it's an enforcement problem that is something I am not in a position to deal with.

Insofar as that machine though, that magnet truck that picks up metal, I think the next time it's up in the member's area and driving past his home, on 428, we should make sure that he picks up all the metal along the way and staff is aware of it. MR. A. BROW N: Mr. Cha irman, I would greatly appreciate it if that vehicle would come through at least once a year and pick up all the crap that's being dumped on that road because it's absolutely outrageous. Thank you. HON. J. PLOHMAN: We'll get him to blow the horn when he goes by. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr.

Chairman, under Mechanical Equipment Services, 4.(b), has there been a change in policy for a provision of mechanics to the districts - does each shop have a qualified mechanic on staff? Has there been a change in . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there are six major shops in the province that provide mechanical services to the twelve districts, and then the six are located in Dauphin, Beausejour, Winnipeg, Brandon, Thompson and The Pas. There is some small limited activity in Swan River, I believe two mechanics.

There was one person in Boissevain, with the retirement of the indi vidual there - and the Mem ber for Turtle 1620

Monday, 4 May, 1987 Mountain has raised this issue as a strong concern and locally to the people in Boissevain - that the mem ber, Mr. Neil Johnson, has retired on March 31, 1987. It was proposed that this work now be done out of Brandon, except for those functions that would have to be done in the area, would be contracted out to private garages in the area, and that it wasn't cost effective to maintain that individual mechanic, which was really an anomaly insofar as the way the setup has taken pla ce throughout the province, so those are the major shops and there's been no change in the policy affecting them.

MR. G. CUMMINGS: In Warehousing, 4.(c), I notice in the report of'85 where we had $1 million worth of bridge materials and inven tory. Is it normal to keep that kind of an inventory? Would that be included under the responsibility of Warehouse and Stores? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, can the member just refresh my memory where he saw $1 million in bridge in the Annual Report? Is that part of their operation? MR. G. CUMMINGS: March 19 86, $9.5 million; or $954,000, pardon me, almost a million. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I want to find out whether the ...

I'm advised that the bridge inventory materials does not come under Warehouse Stores, they're separate locations. It's mainly because the Warehousing do es no t handl e the natur e of the materials, long beams and heavy materials that requires a different kind of storage area. So it's handled as a separate entity insofar as inventory under Bridges, as opposed to Warehouse Stores. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Where are we . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, we have, Mr. Chairman, all the materials for signage for the province; and all of the parts for mechanical division; rather significant for all the equipment and parts.

Paint, all the paint is handl ed through Warehouse Stores for markings. There's asphalt, fuel, it's all handled through that

section as well. MR. G. CUMMINGS: What is the Recoverable in this section? HON. J. PLOHMAN: It's all recovered from those parts of the department that utilize these parts. So mechanical services would . . . MR. G. CUMMINGS: Okay, so that's just a bookkeeping figure, then? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR. G. CUMMINGS: In the Airports section, does this include Airport Capital expenditures in this

section or is this simply . . . Does the 1. 2 million include capital or maintenance under Other Expenditures? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We do have some capital under this total Other Expenditures and also others under 1621 the Northern Devel opment Agr eement und er Appropriation No. 8. Capital projects are under Appropriation 8, so there's none in this area. These are operating costs, Mr. Chairman, such as those listed, Norway House, Island Lake, and so on. MR. G. CUMMINGS: The staff that is listed here under Airports, what is the nature of the staff?

We have "operates, maintains and admini sters." Do we have staff in the Department of Transportation responsible for the administration of individual airports? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We have the staff complements for each of the airports, but I could just mention that generally there are four job classifications at each airport that are staffed through this section: airport manager, equipment operator, flight services officer and a building service worker.

A lot of the airports have only three, or in some cases two staff, but the bigger ones have a number of staff that include all of those classifications that I mentioned. MR. G. CUMMINGS: This is Emergency Needs. Now, does the department have the resp onsibil ity for emergency equipment and emergency evacuation, as well as the operation of the airports themselves? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The Emergency Needs

section here applies to the firefighting equipment, usually a small truck that doubles as a service vehicle, on which the indi vidual is trained in firefighting to assist if there was an emergency at the airports. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Well, pardon my lack of knowledge in this area, but I guess the only way I'm going to find out is to ask the question. Does the Department of Transportation have any emergency evacuation equipment, i.e. any responsibility for planes they use for emergency evacuation or emergency flights, medical emergencies and that sort of thing. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, if we go into the Air Services division, which is down the way a bit, we get into the Air Ambulan ce and the Northern Patients' Program. That's a different section. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Marine Services, Mr. Chairman. The expenditure there doesn't ind icate a large staff, although larger than I might have anticipated. What are the responsibilities of Marine Services? HON. J. PLOHMAN: It operates about seven ferries in Northern Ma ni to ba. Five are operated with dep artmental staff and two are operated by the communities. The M.V.

Charles Roberts is at South Indian Lake, South Bay; and there's a departmental staff involv ed there; the M. V. Joe Keeper at Split Lake and York Landing; the C.F. James up at Pukatawagan, that's Sea Falls to Norway House; the C.F. Alfred Settee Senior, at Pip estone River to Cross Lake; and then there's the lngamore Carlson. which is a subsidy to the Matheson Island Community Council, so that we don't have staff involved directly in that; and the M.V. Edgar Wood from 234 to Bloodvein in Princess Harbour

Monday, 4 May, 1987 is subsidy to the Channel Area Community Services Incorporated. Then we have the Thomas A. Maciver at Nelson River and Cross Lake. It is operated by the department for the Department of Indian Affairs in northern development on their behalf and we recover funding from them. So the staff are involv ed primarily in the operation of those ferries. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, this department then does not include staff for any regulation of the marine operations other than the ones that are directly involved in operations? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, yes, we have to operate under Transport Canada regulations. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Okay. So there is no enforcement personnel included in this. HON. J. PLOHMAN: No enforcement. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Under Materials and Research, I notice that the reference in the Suppl ementary Information is all directed towards airports - or not all di rected - but there seems to be an emphasis on airports. Is this a mistaken opinion on my part? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, it's for all roads.

Airfield foundations and surfaces just mentioned is one aspect, but the design insofar as material requirements, soil conditions, testing, for all roads is done by this section. They also keep an inventory on all gravel pits in the province and also this year we'll be putting together a program for gravel pit restoration in rural areas. Mem bers will be aware and I'm pretty pleased about this in that there are a number of areas where there has been a real mess left years ago, particularly when roads were built.

In some cases, there wasn't the care taken to restore these areas and they're very unsightly and we're going to be getting involved this year for the first time in a program to restore those areas to a more aesthetic condition so that they aren't unsightl y. So I think it's a good development and we'll start with that this year. About 14 pits will be targeted for the first year for restoration. They will be looking after supervising that section, but they have the lab testing of materials here.

Asphalt and concrete tests are done through this section, stabili zation of unique situations where there are overpasses, the approaches and so on. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Does this

section then provide the quality control on highways and runways while they are under construction? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, I'm advised that they would do that. MR. G. CUMMINGS: How many incidents during the course of the year would there be where there has to be a correction of the materials used because it's not up to the contracted standards that were set down for the contract that was let? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that was very detailed information. I'll try to get some answers. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: What I want to know is, how many times does this department find that they have to correct an operation that is ongoing because of some circumvention of the contract for materials requirement? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Staff advise me they are constantly harassing the construction contractors.-(lnterjection)- Well, I don't know whether you could put a percentage on it, but there is constant supervision of this in a number of cases. They look pretty carefully at it; it's been rejected at times. I don't know whether 10 percent might be a good figure. It's hard to put a finger on it.

I don't know that we have tabulation of the specific incidents, but as I have ind icated staff have said that there are numerous occasions when cont ractors have to go back because materials are not meet ing specifications. Density on compaction is also another area that has to be checked and probably on most contracts, grading contracts, or preparation of base for paving, there would be instances where it didn't quite meet specifications and they might have to give some special attention to a particular area I would think. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: I overlooked some questions from the Member for Minn edosa on Northern Airports, the Min ister would entertain it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minne dosa. MR. D. BLAKE: I just wondered if the Mi nister might, maybe I mi ssed it, it's tough tryi ng to keep two committees and a hockey game going all at once - incidental ly, it's 3-3 and they're going into overtime. Northern Airports, what input do we have or what commitment do we have on the airport that's being built at Tadoule Lake? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, that, Mr.

Chairman, was pa rtially fun ded by th e Nor thern Development Agreement and then, under Appropriation 8, there is $500,000 this year that is coming out of the construction budget to finish it off. But I believe about $1. 5 million to $2 million was for that airport that came out of the Northern Development - $2.2 million of the Northern Development Agreement for that airport. MR. D. BLAKE: Will we man it, or will it be manned by Department of Transport personnel? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We will operate it just as we are operating all of the other airports in the northern areas. MR. D.

BLAKE: What kind of traffic a week are you expecting there at that airport? Try weekly, I suppose, the plane will come in one week and try to get out the next. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, you know, Mr. Chairman, we can't make jokes at these essential services for our northern residents. The Member for Min nedosa, I'm sure is very aware that there really is not an alternative there many times of the year, so we're trying to, where possible, provide 1622

Monday, 4 May, 1987 them with this basic service. That was a program that was undertaken during the early Seventies, I guess, to provide many of these remote isolated communi ties with an airport service. This community did not have an adequate service and it is one of the few that really didn't have an adequate airport.

There are still a few others that would like to see an airstrip put in as well, but it is very im portant to them and of course we don't have the traffic that maybe would make it cost effective in the short run to construct these airports but obviously those communities require some basic service. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, I realize that. I gather at the outset that this is a fairly elaborate airport though and yet this is when the federal commitment, when the feds became involved I imagine is where the substantive upgrading took place. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, it wasn't a matter of it being elabor ate in terms of the construction because construction costs are very expensive in the northern areas and you have winter roads being involved and the difficulty and mobili zation costs by contractors, so the costs get up there even for a relatively minor construction project. It's true that the terminal was a little bit more costly than we had hoped but it isn't really elaborate by any standards.

We expect that there should be similar movements there as there is into Brochet which has 2, 132 fly-in and fly-out movements per year, about 7,000 passengers, 374,000 tonnes. It's di fficult to say, but tha t's the estimate in that neighbourhood. There's a numb er of other examples of communities of similar size that would show a significant movement in the year. MR. D. BLAKE: What type of aircraft will this take? Will this take Lear jets, small jets, heavy cargo aircraft, or what type of construction do we have on the runway? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I'll get these precise figures, but it has a runway over 3,000 ft. so it would be similar to most of those other runways and would handle, probably the Citation Air-Ambulance and any of the other aircraft that fly into any of these other northern airports would fly in there, DC-4's ... MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, D. Scott: The Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairman, that's good. I wonder now if I could move down to Marine Services. How many ferries do we have in operation now?

What ferries have been taken out of service and where were they located and where have they been relocated to? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, we did cover this a few moments ago, so I have to go back here . . . There are about seven ferries being operated, two under contract and the five are operated by our staff, and I just went through this, where they're located, what their names are and so on. MR. D. BLAKE: Did you give the hours too? There was some controversy a couple years ago about the hours. They were closing down at two in the morning and not open until eight or something . . . HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Yes, we're working, Mr. Deputy Chairman, gradually to extend those hours and ensure bus connections and so on. I recall the complaint that the member is probably referring to and we made some changes there. I think it was at Sea Falls in Norway House. MR. D. BLAKE: Right. HON. J. PLOHMAN: And we got that looked after, some extension in hours and we're looking at even revisions of schedules every year. In some instances, South Indian Lake is an example where the people felt the

schedule wasn't exactly suiting their needs so there's a change being made this year to allo w them to get into Thompson to drive that distance and return the same day, those kinds of things. MR. D. BLAKE: Have we any ferries in dry dock or � are they all in use? 'ii HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't think, Mr. Deputy Chairman, we have any in storage at the present time. MR. D. BLAKE: Okay, thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are there any further questions on this section? The Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Are we down to Government Air Services? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Traffic operations. MR. D. BLAKE: Okay. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Materials. The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Do we still maintain a lab and staff that whenever a contractor, say, is crushing gravel and/ or making asphalt? Do we staff a lab right on-site still? HON. J. PLOHMAN: On-site, yes. I'm advised that we do. Virtually every project over a couple of hundred thousand would have this kind of attention. MR. D. ROCAN: Okay, that attention is given on the job site but are those samples then sent into Winnipeg and re-analyzed or whatever happens? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I'm advised that most of the testing is completed right on-site but that there is some dupl icate testing done in the lab just to back up and check that the initial tests were accurate. MR. D. ROCAN: Those labs on-site, that's entirely government emplo yees on them, that's not contractors 1623

Monday, 4 May, 1987 HON. J. PLOHMAN: A contractor, Mr. Deputy Chairman, has to supply the building to the de partment's specifications. MR . G. CUMMINGS: If the Min ister would entertain one more question before we turn the page here, on Mechanical Equipment Services. Has our fleet size changed, particularly in the amount of cars and light trucks that we have on the road? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, we don't have any cars in our fleet for this area, that's all through Government Services. There's light trucks and trucks, graders, floaters and everything else you can thing of.

There's 2,443 pie ces of equipment, 701 trucks, light, medium and heavy-duty, 161 motor graders, 75 front end loaders, 284 wheel tractors, 266 sand spreaders. Should I go on? The member wanted to know how this has changed? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Compared to last year. HON. J. PLOHMAN: This is about the same as last year. There's been no increase appreciably.

A couple of years ago there was an increase in the number of pieces of equipment when we extended the road up to Gillam and it came into service, and of course we needed some additional equipment, but general ly, and a couple pieces up to Tadoule Lake, new pieces I believe, but generally the total inventory has been kept fairly stable in the last couple of years. It may be that in the future, with the computerized inventory system, that we might even be able to see some reduction by more efficient use of the equipment through that automated system but that remains to be seen.

That has been the experience though in other areas when they've been automoted. MR. G. CUMMINGS: The Min ister mentioned that any cars would come out of Government Services, but Go vernment Services is a charge-back type of de partment. Ho w many cars do we rent from Government Services? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We don't have the information for certain. I'm advised that it may be 390 vehicles but we'd have to check that.

Again, because of the Cabinet decisions, Treasury Board decisions, there's been a pressure put on capping the vehicle fleet over the last number of years and that means that in some cases, as other departments or our department requires vehicles for priority areas, they're taken from within rather than adding to the fleet. So we have been cutting back if anything, rather than adding to the fleet. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Where would the appropriation be for the funds going to Government Services out of Hig hways? Didn't it offset the use of those cars? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: They're under every appropriation where you see Transportation, the line Transportation, that's paid back to . . . MR. G. CUMMINGS: Well, it would be only partly, would it not? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, every appropriation, they pay for private mileage or for the use of private cars for business purposes under that; either it's a rental of the car from Government Services, so really, Mr. Chairman, it's spread throughout the various appropriations. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Does this bookkeeping system in our Suppl ementary Information then, does it break down, for example, let's take Mechanical Equipment Services, the department that we're looking at right now, where transportation is listed . It's dropped from 84 to 79. Now, does it also have a book value here for the maintenance of the vehicles that are part of the - not what's rented from Government Services - but what the department already owns, the light trucks, the cost of maint enance? Would the maintenance of those vehicles be included under that figure there as well? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: It will be under Repairs and Maintenance for the maintenance of all of the vehicles and pieces of equipment in the Hig hways Department. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Okay, in this department it is 3.6 million. Is that for the entire department, or is that just for Mechanical Equipment Services? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, for the entire department, cost recovered from all of the sections of the department that utilize this equipment. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, the cars that were referred to that come from Government Services, what is the use that the cars are put to?

Are they for admin istrative personnel primarily? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there's criteria established for the use of vehicles. By the nature of the job description and the number of miles that the ind ividual puts on for a year would dictate whether he should, or she should be allocated a government vehicle or not. So that criteria is established by Government Services, accepted by Cabine t and then each department has to adhere to that criteria.

It's more cost effective to all ocate a car to an individual who's doing over 20,000 business kil ometres per year than it is paying mileage for the use of his own vehicle on government business. So at that point the ind ividuals are allocated a vehicle. MR. G. CUMMINGS: The vans, the full passenger vans that survey crews are often seen with, are those leased or are those owned by the department, that type of van? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I und erst and the vans are Governmen t Services issued. The Department of Hig hways and Transportation, when it comes to vehicles, are strictly trucks. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Moving into Traffic Operations then, Mr. Chairman, on the next page. 16 24

Monday, 4 May, 1987 One thing that inte rests me in this area is the warehousing of the signing and being responsible for the manufacture of the signs for Highw ays - and the Min ister will probably not agree that this is the place to raise this - but somewhere during these Estima tes I would like to impress upon him that the Yellowhead Route Association and the promoters of that route have made a very good case for a major signing at the junction of 1 and 16. Now I appreciate that they then appreciate that 1 and 16 are dual-signed to Portage.

But is there anything - and I'm sure the department has considered it - but is there anything in the appropriations this year to change or increase the signing at the junction of 1 and 16? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we have handed out a lis t to the members of the Yellowhead im provements, Federal-Provincial . . . MR. G. CUMMINGS: Is it on that list? Does that include a major ... HON. J. PLOHMAN: . . . and at the corner of the second project, 16 and PTH 1, illumina tion and signing, is a major effort to im prove the signing on that location.

I should also mention that the Yello whead, when I was at the An nual Me eting of the Yello whead Association, we met with the caucus representatives from Manitoba for the association, and they discussed with me the future nature of signage on the Yellowhead, considering that it would be part of the Trans-Canada system, as to whether it should be Trans-Canada Yellowhead, or Trans-Canada 16, or something like that.

They're not sure what they want to do there but they're going to be approaching all three governments, all four governments in Western Canada at some point in the ne xt year or so, to advise us of their recommendations on signage for the Yello whead in the future, and may require eventually after the signs that are there now are worn out, that we would replace them with a different kind of sign. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Yes, the illum ination of the signage was not my idea of changing it to a major signing at that junction.

I was thinking more in terms of an overhead illumi nated system where oncoming traffic can be warned at least half a mile in advance, or perhaps a mile, to turn at the next turning lane to take the Yell owhead Route, etc., and then we can avoid some of the problems that the promoters of the Yellowhead Route have put on record, and that is that quite often we have people ending up at MacGregor saying, oh, oh, did I miss the Yellowhead? How can I get over there from here? I'm not sure that using the same sign with a light would alle viate that problem, so I think they have a legitimate . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, sorry to interrupt, there's $11 0,000 being budgeted in that program ... MR. G. CUMMINGS: ... it's not just a lighting project then? Okay, I appreciate that. Mr. Chairman, why has the government got in the sign construction business? It would seem to me one area of the department that in fact could be contracted. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, first of all I guess this is an area that traditionally has been handled in house, so to speak.

Apparently the sign shop facilities have been in pla ce, not the sign shop at its present location, but the sign shop facilities capabilities have been in place for some 20 or 25 years. They also do work for mun icipalities, as well as for the province; and I'm advised as well that the City of Winnipeg has their own sign shop. They don't contract it out either for whatever reason. It's difficult to make a change, of course, when you have a number of empl oyees affected by it, but I believe there has been some analysis done in the past as to how cost effective it is.

There hasn't been any particular study to determine whether it would be more cost effective to have this work contracted out; but, certainly, I think it's possible to maintain quality control and consistency by having one sign shop, but it doesn't mean it couldn't be done ot herwise. I'm not certain what is done in other provinces. Most other provinces do have assigned capability of their own as well. So it is not an area that, for whatever reason, has been identified and singled out for privatization, if you want to use the word. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: The reason I asked the question is that I was not under the im pression that this was an old long-standing operation. Is this a long-standing operation of Hig hways - sign construction? HON. J. PLOHMAN: They say 20 to 25 years. At Dauphin, the Dauphin sign plant was put in there in '72, so it's been a good 15 years now, and I wouldn't think that would be one of my priorities to look at removing. MR. G. CUMMINGS: You can put it in Ste. Rose if you want. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Suddenly it would be a pretty good idea there. We're looking at a major expansion perhaps. MR. G. CUMMINGS: What is the Recoverable?

If I've missed it somewhere here, I apologize. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Recoverable - $950,000.00. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Where is it recovered from? HON. J. PLOHMAN: This is recovered from the Maintenance

section and Capital

section for signage for projects and for highways where they are redone and new signs had to be put up. It's all charged to the job. So they buy the signs here and it's charged back. My understanding is that part of the overall project inv olves the signa ge for the project during its construction and after it's completed. The member is probably aware of all of the new signs that are going up as well in this whole area. I don't want to get into all of the radio stations and museums and historical sites and the new directional signs, the new number signs for the hig hway system, the new logo, the new buffalo.

It's a different style a little bit. (lnterjection)- It looks really sharp, yes. 1625

Monday, 4 May, 1987 MR. G. CUMMINGS: Now that the Min ister mentions it, I do have some concern about the signs that are going up. I thank him for raising that point. The Min ister of Education is across the table from us and perhaps we can have a two-way discussion here. Why is it that school divisions are - or has there been a recent change in policy that I'm not aware of? Why is it the school divisions have difficulty in negotiating with the Highw ays Department to put up signs warning of oncoming school bus loading zones?

I can think of two areas that I've noticed where they are signed on the highway now, but my experience has been that the Highw ays Department has denied any request to warn the motorist to stop ahead for school bus lo ading zones, etc. What is the High ways Department's hangup in that area? The argument used to be that they didn't want to clutter the roadside with signage. Now we have signage up there that I would think maybe in some cases is less appropriate than those kinds of warnings about which I have just been speaking - radio calls or call num bers and so on, frequency numb ers.

While I don't object specifically to them being there, I wonder why they are there and we have difficulty getting a sign to warn of a school bus loading zone around the corner and this sort of thing. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, the major reason, Mr. Chairman, is that we pay for the school bus signs and the radio stations pay for their signs and the rural crime watch people, along with Municipal Affairs, pay for their signs and so on.

The fact is that the community service signage for all the communities is an area that we contribute to the costs and we've done a lot of that in the last couple of years; but, generally , where these signs are paid for elsewhere, that doesn't become a limiting factor. We took the init iative to redesign the signs to make them more visible and to begin a signing program for "Stop for School Bus when Signal is Flashing." Initial ly, in 1986-87, we put up 30 of those. If a person thinks about it, 30 is not very many for the whole province, but it's a start.

That, of course, has whetted the appetite of many of the school divisions who can see this now and they want to have them. However, we had to put in certain criteria that it was only on major routes, major PTH's, in communities of a certain size, so that we had criteria to start with. Now, in the following years, we're going to continue to expand that program, but it's slow and it's being paid for by our department. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Well, there are some school divisions who I know at one time would have cheerfully paid for construction and di rection of the signage if they could have had cooperation in getting them up. Is the Min ister saying that cost is the major inhibiting factor right now for those divisions who would like to put up signs? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, it is. We are budgeting $1 0,000 for next year for these signs, this particular sign, and we're starting a major program that wasn't done before.

What I would like to do, though, is pursue with the Minis ter of Education the possibility of putting in a cost- sharing program with the school divisions so that we can accelerate this as long as they use the sign that has been developed, the stand ardized sign, like we've done with the community service signs where the communities have paid $500 or $250 a line for those signs. It's possible, and now that the member mentions it, that we could get some school divisions who would quite well be inclined to participate in the funding for that amount of mone y.

If we have to fund it ourselves, it's going to take a little bit longer to get them all up, but we are moving in that di rection and I have to commend the department for taking that initia tive. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Again, I'm not sure that this is the right area. We're talking about traffic control devices. The question that I want to raise is a safety issue and I would like to have the Mini ster give his comments about where the department is heading in terms of the lighting for ambulance and fire vehicles in the province.

I have a copy of a letter, and I've been aware of the issue for quite some time, but I know the Min ister has recently received a letter expressing concern about the blue and red alternating lights not being legal anyrnore on ambulance vehicles. Did the department do any data collection? From time to time, we have a reflection of the statistics and the licence plates. We reflected on what was happening in the States. Do we have the data to show what's happening in other parts of the continent in the use of these warning devices? Because we can also look at the snowplows.

There's an inquiry corning up this summer at Dauphin from an accident which occurred at Ste. Rose this winter. It seems to me that a case may very well be made at that time as well that an alternating light system might have avoided that accident; and, un der certain conditions, alternating lights can very well be considered an asset in terms of safety rather than a single blue flashing light which the sno wp lows are using. I understand Saskatchewan uses a blue and amber light on public works vehicles. I wonder if the department has the statistics.

Maybe there are no statistics that are available for a statistical comparison. But is there some safety reason that the department is unprepared at this point to look at that type of a warning system? I understand we would want unanimity across Canada, where possible, but if our neighbouring province to the west is already looking at some of these aspects, where is the Manitoba Department of Transportation headed? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Two steps ahead. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I hope you're two ahead and not three back. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Two ahead.

First of all, the ambulance question - they were never legal; the blue and red lights were never legal for ambula nces or any kinds of emergency vehicles in Manitoba. The individual that the member is speaking about chose to put this on his ambulance for whatever reason. 1626

Monday, 4 May, 1987 He might have thought that it looked good or he thought he was more visible or it was something unique, I don't know, but he chose to do it without first checking the regulations in the province or to pur chase the ambula nce equipped like that if that was the case. I am advised that nowhere in the jurisdictions in Canada, eight jurisdictions that allow blue and red flashing lights in combination, are they allowed for ambula nce vehicles. They're al lowed for police vehicles only to distinguish them from ambulance vehicles.

So we're following a standard that has been established, and I believe it's in North America general ly, in U.S. jurisdictions as well, that blue and red is associated with police vehicles, law enforcement vehicles, but not for ambulances. I advised the indi vidual, by letter, of that, and I said at the same time that I wanted to know why this standard was established.

So I've asked the departmen t to look further at some of the research that went into this insofar as why other jurisdictions had decided to do this rather than just "me too" as one jurisdiction decides we're going to do this and the rest of them follow suit because Quebec did it or because Ontario and really never studied the issue. So I want to know whether they did study it and whether it is something that we should go to or whether we should be a leader in this area and go to the other provinces and say look, we believe this standard should be changed or this is what it should be.

But in the meantime, we're not going to go ahead and do this and be the only jurisdiction in Canada with this different kind of requirement. So I think we should leave that one. I've indicated to the ambulance owner, who called me just the other day on this further about it, that I didn't foresee a change in the next while and that he should take action accordingly with regard to the blue lights on his ambul ance.

Insofar as the other issue, coincident with this issue, and even before the tragic accident near Mccreary that occurred last spring, last wint er, with people being killed by hitting a snowplow, the department had been reviewing the whole area of lighting on snowplows and have looked it over carefully with the districts and have determined that there should be some change in lighting on the snowpl ow.

As a matter of fact, the snowplo ws, all 16 0 of them, will be equipped with this new lighting system on the back, which is a pulsating orange light that will be similar to the pedest rian crosswal ks wher e you see the pulsating orange lights, that will be ins talled at the top of the snowplo ws to ensure that this will be in place by this next winter. We'll retain the blue light that is there now in addition to that. I think the other thing that we have to do is more public awareness in this area as well.

It seems that not only the operators have to be better trained and more aware, but they should be updated and refreshed - all our operators every year - just before the snowplow season to ensure that they are aware of any action they can take to reduce the incidence of accidents as it applies to snowplows. I believe we're on the right track in taking substantial action and not waiting for the inquiry at Dauphin. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, I like some of what I hear the Min ister saying.

I guess what I would be interested in, if there is no substantial data, like these complaints or these concerns - they're concerns, not complaints really - they're not coming from airheads. These people are seriously concerned about vehicular safety, emergency vehicles and public service vehicles.

The department seems to very often be involved in the studying of various aspects of traffic safety, and I guess from time to time we've accused the department, and particularly this government, of studying issues rather than taking action; but I would wonder if the department is prepared to give an undertaking that they will attempt to either disp rove or prove what is the safest warning devices to have on the roads.

If this theory that an alternating light of two colours - now the Min ister has stated that the public service vehicles here, or the snowplo ws particularly, could be going to an alternating yellow with a blue in the middle or somewhere on the vehicle at the back as well . HON. J. PLOHMAN: They will be. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Has anyone disproven the theory a1I that an alternating colour, be it yellow and blue in this ,. case, does not draw the attention more quickly?

Because we are getting into a conglomeration almost of colours and lights and warning devices on the highways, and there has to be some very distinctive method of warning traffic. It's not to say that we can't all drive more safely, but at the cost that's involved for a correction, if in fact this would be a better method, the cost involv ed would be minimal compared to the cost of a lawsuit, for example. I would encourage the department, through the Min ister, to (

a) if this theory is wrong, disprove it; or (

b) if there may be some validity to it, to prove that valid ity. I don't think that it needs to be an ego trip for either those people who are seeking to have a change or for the department. Nobody needs to feel that his reputation or his future is at stake. Whatever is the safest warning device system that we can put on our highways should be the bottom line. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, The Hig hway a1I Traffic Act defines the lighting that's required for various ,_ kinds of vehicles and it's all in there.

The red lights, for example, couldn't be used because they are used on law enforcement vehicles and ambulances. The orange and blue are used on public service vehicles, and the snowplows previously only had blue and so now we've added the orange to make them more visible. It's a question I guess of research having been done on these in previous years over time. I want to find out what was done insofar as the blue and red with emergency vehicles and law enforcement vehicles to find out whether that makes sense, so that's what I asked for.

Insofar as this is concerned, the snowplows, I don't know that there's a need at this time to change what kind of lights should be designated for those kinds of vehicles. I think we just have to do more in making them more visible, but what the department has decided to do is to ensure there are additional lights and that they are flashing and so on to dra w them to people's attention; and I think with public education, make people more aware of the dangers. That's really part of it and I'll also be wanting to find out more from the department 1627

Monday, 4 May, 1987 as to what is happening with regard to snowplows in other jurisdictions, as they probably did some research on this, no doubt, in determ ining that this was the way that th ey should go after the review that was undertaken. So I haven't been made aware of that insofar as other jurisdictions, but I will want to find out what other jurisdictions are doing for snowplows as well. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, before we can proceed, it's now ten o'clock. What is the will of the committee? Want to proceed beyond? Mr.

Chairman, I believe with the agreement of the Min ister that we could probably wrap this up given an extension of an hour , give or take. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have agreed to this previously so that we should continue. MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good. Proceed, the Member for Ste. Rosef MR. G. CUMMINGS: Okay, the only other comment I have in this area and I'm sure the Min ister will then want to know why the fire college is interested in using a red and blue rather than the single colour on their training equipment. It seems to me that there must be some point there for discussion. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, I'm meeting with the fire chiefs in the near future so we'll ask them about this. MR. D. BLAKE: Government Air Service, I wonder if the Min ister could give us a breakdown. Have we purchased any new aircraft? Are we leasing any new aircraft or where do we stand there, which we haven't got a water bomber hidden in here anywhere this year, the capital or anywhere? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, we don't have, Mr. Chairman, any additional planes. Well, since the last Estimates we in fact have had del ivery of one water bom ber, the one we got for $1 .00.

I told the department we should stop right there and not bother taking the second one but apparently the agreement doesn't allow for that, so we have to pay for the second one and we're making a second instalment I believe this year. A final instalment of some $3 million or $4 million; it's in the budget there. MR. D. BLAKE: It's in your Capital? HON. J. PLOHMAN: In the Capital.- (Interjection)- MR. D. BLAKE: Acquisition of Physical Assets. HON. J. PL OHMAN: Yes, that's it. MR. D. BLAKE: How much is there for the bom ber, $5.8 million? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, just a minute, 4.260 is the water bomber payment this year. So what we'll have, Mr. Chairman, we paid in advance last year for the first instalment on the water bomber and this is the second instalment and we'll take delivery next March of the fifth water bomber, and we'll have enough to snuff out anything that starts. But we have 12 aircraft right now in the fleet, a reduction from last year, I think from 13 . We sold a couple last year, a couple of the old ones, the Aztec and a Beaver, I believe, and purchased another water bomber so that we got the 12 aircraft.

I can go through the various aircraft: There are four water bombers; there are two DHC-3 Otters, transport and water bombing; there's a Turbo Beaver, three of them; there's one Piper Navajo 350; and two Citation Jets, one is the Citation 1. It was used previously for the No rthern Patient Progra m ; and then the air ambulance, Citation S11. MR. D. BLAKE: We have no choppers in our fleet - water bombing? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, we don't, Mr. Chairman, we do not have any helicopters for water bombing. The Turbo Beavers are used for water bombing as well as the Otters and the water bombers themselves. MR. D.

BLAKE: It may have been answered last year, I just can't remember if you did. Did we sell the MU- 2, or what did we get for the MU-2? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We sold that about three years ago, or four maybe. MR. D. BLAKE: Did we get the money? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think they got a pretty hefty return for it. I've forgotten the amount though. MR. D. BLAKE: Pass. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Okay, Mr. Chairman, we can pass that section,

section 4, in its entirety. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 93: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 2,61 5,00 0 for Hi g hways and Transporta tion, Engineering and Technical Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1988-p ass. Transportation Policy and Research,

section 5.- the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, is this the area I presume where a lot of the policy statements that have been made by the government in the last four or five years are, first of all, conceived? But it 's always interes ting that the dir ections are very much the direction that the party has establi shed somewhere along the way. I want to know, from the Min ister, does this policy department research operate independent ly, or do they operate to come up with positions and position papers that are in line with the predetermined policy of the Min ister? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't know that they operate completely indep endently . I think that they are cognizant of the philosophy of the government and perhaps the general nature of the di rection that the government wants to go although they are not told 1628

Monday, 4 May, 1987 that they are there to come up with papers that support those positions as such. I can't really say to what that influe nces th eir posi tions, but the fact is, that traditionall y, Manitoba has taken positions, perhaps stronger under some admin istrations, perhaps less emphasis in others, but always the same general themes whether it be on Churchill or whether it be on branch line abandonment or whatever the case is. So those general trends tend to be carried on as long as they are workable and they seem to be getting some results, I would think, so there is continuity.

We haven't really changed a lot of the - well there have been quite a few additions in staff that have been hired through comp etitions in the subagreement section, but we haven't changed a lot of the senior people in there in terms of staffing and, again, they've all been hired through competitions with Mr. Wallace here who has been there before I got there. So I don't know, I guess we're just lucky that we've got such good people who have their heads screwed on right. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Minis ter, in my view having watched him perform in his portfolio for the last number of years, has directed a major amount of his time into the area of poli cy, particularly as related to the Port of Churchill and also to the areas of freight rates, variable rates. I think he would want to use that word and also the im pact upon municipal roads. I can certainly see where the latter one would certainly fall under his - when I say municipal roads, I mean all roads. That certainly would more properly fall into his area of responsibility. Mr.

Chairman, I think something has happened over the last year with respect to some of the reports that have been commissioned by this Min ister that do not cast a good light upon, not only himself, but upon the government's openness and their preparedness to share studies. We've seen another

part in this, Mr. Chairman. We also have, I believe, a perfect example of that within the Department of Hig hways and Transportation. Could the Minis ter tell this committee why he chose not to release the study done by ADI which was commissioned by both the Provincial and the Federal Governments to look at the impact of rail abandonment upon the provincial road network, why he did not release that report to the public in June 1986 when it was presented to him? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, first of all, I don't believe that we have held back any information that has cast a bad light on the department or on myself or on the government insofar as the study that the member has mentioned.

Clearly, the ADI study was established under the subagreement in the hopes that it would determine once and for all what the cost transfer was of rail line abandonment and we did have a study that was done under the former admin istration, I believe in 1980, by the department, by many of the same staff or their colleagues in the transportation division at that time who determined - and I'm not sure what direction they had from their Min ister at that time, but were to determine a reasonable cost transference figure that could be used.

Of course, at that time, they projected that there would be a cost of some $52 million, 1981 dollars, as a result of the abandonment of all of the lines that were in the mill at that time for consideration. So it would have been exaggerated somewhat in that all of those lines were not indeed abandoned and we were successful in indeed, retaining some of them in the protected network so that the costs perhaps were overstated from that point of view.

But there was a significant amount of dollars involved obviously and the point was the Federal Government did not accept those figures, did not accept those as being realistic figures. So when it came time to these agreements we said, well, if you're not going to give us money as compensation for abandonment, let's determine what the actual costs are. So we ende avoured to undertake this study and I guess the study team at the time thought that the ADI in conjunction with E.M.

Ludwick and Associates would provide a competent analysis of the question and would give us an independent neutral kind of figure that we could all say, well, here it is. This is the good judge of � what it's costing the province and so on. � As it turned out, the study was seriously flawed. It was handed in to the management commitee and subsequently to the Min isters of the subagreements and its basic finding was that as a result of rail line abandonment in the period 1976 to 1986 that there was a legitimate cost transference of $200,000. 00.

That figure is something that I didn't have to go any further in the study to analy ze it personally to determine that obviously it was flawed. Because we have numerous examples where we have spent dollars on highway construction that would not have been spent, would not have been spent for several years, perhaps not have been spent for many years and may not have been spent at all if a line had not been abandoned. Hig hway 50 is a good example, the Oakland subdivision, where there were substantial costs for upgrading that highway in the neighbourhood of $10 million.

Many of it is still being spent today that would not have been spent if that line would have been retained. There are numerous other examples where we have now gone back in the old records and determined the � actual costs that have been incurred by the province � where rail line abandonment was identified as the major factor in expenditures. So upgrading did take place. What Ludwick did was made a number of logical and mathematical errors in their study, that were obvious, that the staff determined were obvious.

We have to put aside the practical and conceptual oversights and omissions made by the consultants and eliminating the mechanical errors would increase their findings from $112 ,000 to $949,000 in one chart for example. Just that in taking out the mechanical errors and mathematical errors. It changed things so dramatically and there were many different examples of where this took place throughout the study that we determined it was not an accurate study.

Therefore, when I met with the Federal Min ister on December 4, we agreed that we should have another analysis done of this study and of the two stud ies, because the differences were so great, where one came up with a $52 million figure and one said $200,000, in other words nothing. It defies all logic. 1629

Monday, 4 May, 19 87 So we asked the Transportation Ind ustry Development Advisory Comm ittee which is a senior comm ittee chaired by Art Morrow, including a number of senior transportation people who have been appointed by the Federal and Provincial Governments. We said to them, we want you to do an analysis of these two studies and provide us with some comparative data, some idea as to why we should put more credence in one or give more credibility to one than the other, and to determine whether this latest study was an accurate study that governments should base decisions on in the future.

They got in touch with a consultant as well to do the work for them, which was Touche Ross, I believe, and they have done an extensive analysis of this, in consultation with the Highw ays planning and design people, so that they would be given the data on costs and so on. They analy zed this information and they now have come up with an analysis that was scrutinized in some detail by TI DAC, the senior committee, and now I am awaiting the presentation of that study from that committee to myself and to John Crosbie. At that point, we would make a determination as to the release.

There was no sitting on anything at the time. There were two Mini sters, federal and provi ncial, who commissioned this study, agreed - for the Member for Morris - that this study should not be released, contrary to what federal officials wanted, because they were rubbing their hands with glee with this new-found information that they wanted to bring out to the world. The fact is that we both agreed we should have an analysis done because the discrepancies in the two studies were so great, and there were so many errors in this study.

That's been done and I'm awaiting that information and we will release both of those toget her, and the Member for Morris then will be able to make, I think, an informed decision after studying the two as to whether we did the right thing. I think he'll come back to me, at some point, and he will say to me, yes, there was a lot of flaws in that study and you did the right thing by going for a further analysis. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, the question was very, very specific.

I asked the Min ister why - and I believe that the Provincial Government directed $50,000 for that study - why he felt he could not share it with us, regardless of how flawed it may have been. Mr. Chairman, certainly that is a public study. It belongs to the people of Manitoba and the taxpayers of Manitoba. I'm not going to pass judgment on it, Mr. Chairman, because I haven't seen it. I accept the Minister's word, that maybe there were mistakes; quite frankly, I believe that our road system is suffering through the usage of larger, larger trucks travelling greater di stances. As you know, Mr.

Chairman, because you were a farmer, the shackles have been thrown off producers. They now can deliver to points other than the one just three or four mi les away, which they were forced to deliver to under a not-too-long-ago policy of the Canadian Wheat Board. There's no doubt that grain is going greater di stances on the public road system, both provincial and municipal, Mr. Chairman, so I'm not going to give the Mini ster an argument with that respect. I can see where there are some im pacts on the road system. My question though is very much different.

I want to know what right the Mini ster has to direct provincial taxpayer dollars into a study of this kind, and I believe that the Min ister and the department were responsible for helping set up the terms of reference that guided the original study. Why then would they feel that they could not share that study, regardless of how flawed it may have been, with the people of the Province of Manitoba? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the 181 studies on Churchill were completed by March, certainly in my hands by June of 1986, and were not released by the Federal Government - there was no agreement to release them till late fall of 1986. The same argument could be used there that they were misusing taxpayers' dollars by hiding the results. I don't buy that, frankly.

I didn't agree with them holding back on those studies, because they were very positive and I wanted them released, frankly, but they were dragging on them and certainly felt that they didn't know how to deal - perhaps the Federal Government - with these studies, especially the officials in the department who saw something that they didn't expect and didn't want on Churchill on those 181 studies, which the member is familiar with, as he was partially in attendance at a seminar in Churchill. It was held by the Transport Institute.

But ins ofar as this one is concerned, we felt legiti mately that we had half a study there. We didn't have a study that we could put any reliance on, therefore we should not release it until we had done further analysis of it, to present an accurate picture. I'm sure the Member for Morris would not want a distorted picture that was not reflective of the facts. That's what I felt was the case, therefore it would be inap propriate and was inappropriate for Mr. Noonan, the counsel for the CTC, who questioned me on that study at the variable rate hearing, here in Winnipeg, and for Mr.

Mulder, Assistant Deputy Min ister for Transport Canada, to comment on that study, when they had no authorization from their Min ister and we had not agreed, as pursuant to the terms of the subagreement, to release that report because, in fact, it was flawed and needed further facts to develop around it, so that we could present a true picture to the public.

I don't think it would have been responsible to release a study that did not present a true picture, and, which, in fact, prejudiced the future possibilities of Manitoba and other provinces, and perhaps municipalities, in getting fair comp ensa tion for cost tran sferences because of rail-line abandonment. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, two points, firstly, I'm not interested in entering into the battle that the Mini ster may have with the federal bureaucrats. I'm not party to many of the discussions, so consequently I can't add an awful lot to that whole subject. However, Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister, in his own words, and you may want to check the record for this, said you didn't have to read very far into the report to realize it was flawed. "As soon as I saw the figure, I realized that it was flawed ." Mr. Chairman, I've been trained to study methodology, and if one accepts methodolo gy, then one accepts the report and the numb ers it provides; or if one rejects 1630

Monday, 4 May, 1987 methodol ogy, then they can throw away the whole project. The Min ister didn't say that, he said he accepted - he read the number 200,000 and threw it out. Well, Mr. Chairman, on that basis, what number then is the Min ister finally going to accept, and therefore what report is he going to finally accept, and when will he be happy and when will he then release the report; and when he does, can he tell us how much they're all going to cost to finally satisfy himself and the pol itical agenda of this government. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I think that's a real cheap shot from the Member for Morris. It's not becoming of him at all to say that this is the political agenda. This is Manitoba's agenda, and the member should not be referring to my battle with federal bureaucrats; he should be referring to Manitoba's battle, and the injustices that we have done by those people, who have an agenda for Eastern Canada and are not sensitive to Western Canada.

I think he should be concerned about that, as I am, and as my staff is, when they see this day after day, taking place; when they try to hoodwink the western provinces, particularly Manitoba, on so many different areas where we've seen so many examples. I'm not blaming anyone for the results of the study or for the fact it went astray. I say there were mistakes made in the terms of reference, they were not something that I app roved specifical ly. We have people from both levels of government on steering committees who were involved in that.

Whatever the reason was, there were mistakes made along the way and the consultants didn't do the job that we expected they would do, and we weren't satisfied with it on that basis. We didn't just base that on the fact that of the 200,000, that was enough to trigger in anybody's mind that there was a problem with the study. That's really what I ind icated to the Member for Morris.

In terms of the way that it was done, in terms of the actual figur es that were used, there was an in-depth an alysis done by the staff before we made the determination that this can't be released because it just does not reflect the facts. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, again I'm in no position at this point, firstly to do battle with the federal bureaucrats who, and I have to take the Mini ster's word for it, were only concerned about eastern interests, just like I'm in no position to pass judgment on the report. I may very well be a strong ally of the Min ister but, Mr.

Chairman, I become very suspicious when I see a Min ister all of a sudden, when he is partly responsible for commissioning a report, doesn't like the results, doesn't share the methodology with us and says to us around this table or at the forum or any other forum saying, take my word for it, it was a flawed study. We're going to do anot her. Mr. Chairman, if he thinks that asking questions in the manner in which I do presents a cheap shot, why are my motives in question when the Min ister is the one who has to tell the members up here as to why he wouldn't release the report. He has indi cated that, Mr.

Chairman, he did not have the authority, the joint authority with another Min ister, a federal Min ister to do so. That's on the record. I accept it. 1631 Mr. Chairman, another question. Who then so greatly influenced the team to cause it to, maybe in the Min ister's view, in the government's view, use the wrong assumptions, to use the wrong mechanisms, to use the wrong methodology? Was there some influence outside of Manitoba that caused that study team to look at the whole study in a view which the Min ister says was very much skewed and in error? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I don't know whether there was any ind ividual from outside. As I said there was members on the steering committee that were made up of representatives from Manitoba and the Federal Department of Transport who reviewed the terms of reference. But again, the terms of reference don't necessarily dictate that the study was going to come up with distorted results. There's no particular evidence that there was any influence. The fact is that it could be attributed mostly to errors, factual errors in the study itself.

The member will have that opportunity to determine � for himself what went wrong in that study. He said he's , trained in reviewing critically methodology and therefore will be able to make an assumption as soon as it is released. I hoped that we would have this released already. It's just a matter of getting the forwarding letter from the chairman of the TIDAC Committee, who I understand is all ready, from talking to one member of the committee just inadvertently at a function, said that that had been all completed at this time and was just waiting signature and ready to go.

So I know that we should be getting this in very short time and we are committed to releasing both of those at that time. So this study will be released but it will not be released in itself in isolation. It will be released in context with some comment on it by another reputable firm, Touche Ross, and I think it will provide a balance there and I hope that we will have some direction as to where to go then. I don't know whether we're going to get some facts or some figures that are going to say to us, this is the accurate figure for the costs.

It may say that we need further study. � It's a very complicated area and no one has been , able to quantify it properly in the past and the Member for Morris laughs on that - he probably knows that it's difficult to quant ify. Perhaps it's best if the Federal Government at some point comes up with a better system, along with the provinces and the affected producers and communi ties and mu nicipalities for compensation, general compensation, so that they don't have to get into all the specifics but I think that there will be a way to do it.

I'm convinced that there will be a way to quantify the cost transference but I don't know that we will find all of those details out at this particular time. That will be for people like himself to judge when he sees the studies, when we release them and I hope that it will be done within the next week or so. I just wanted to make one comment though about the member's reaction to my comment about a cheap shot. The fact is that he said that it was to satisfy my political agenda and again I say it's not my political agenda. The fact is that Manitoba has a great deal at stake here.

Manitoba has a great deal to lose if there's

Monday, 4 May, 19 87 no compensation because I know the member knows th at within the next few years, if there's no compensation put in place, that we're going to see an awful lot of abandonment of rail service in this province and we're going to get nothing in return to compensate for that loss. And that's a very serious concern to me and I think the member and all Manitobans should be concerned about that. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I'd love to dialague in that whole area with the Min ister but we don't have time to do that. I was smiling before because of the choice of words the Min ister used.

He used "quant ify properly" and he's right. A thousand different people could do a studyand come up with different answers but he still used the words "quantify properly" as if all of sudden there will be a num ber, there will be a proper quantifiable number that some day is going to come before the Min ister of Transportation which he can accept. Question: It's my understanding that there were as the Min ister ind icated, staff from the department who supervised the consultant's work, that were on the steering committee.

Did these staff people not do their job properly during the course of that study and if not, have they been in some way admonished for the fact th at th ey didn't present proper di rection to the consultant? Why were they there then if they didn' t help direct the course in the di rection that the Mini ster would have wanted? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I think it's premature to make any comment on that at the present time until we get this analysis. MR. C. MANNESS: Will the Min ister be making a comment on that question in due course? HON . J.

PLOHMAN: If I feel that there's need to do that, I think that would be done privately and certainly isn't something that needs to be dealt with publ icly. MR. C. MANNESS: How much mo ney is the Government of Manitoba spending to have the new study done by TIDAC? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, TIDAC has a budget of some $400,000 this year and they have the discretion to undertake work in priority areas as they see fit, subject to Treasury Board app roval but generally we have approved the work plan and generally approved the initiatives that they undertake because they do have to have some arm's length authority.

The study is being paid for through their funds as part of their work that the Min isters have authorized them to undertake within their appropriation. I'm not certain at this point in time. I'm advised it's $86,000, 50-50 cost-shared. MR. C. MANNESS: The Min ister on a numb er of occasions again tonight has indicated that there is a very real cost to abandonment that is reflected globally within his budget to some degree now, and will probably grow over the coming years. Can the Minister in support of that claim provide us with a listing of branch point abandon ment-related expenditures?

Can he in any way identify expenditur es by road, PR and Provincial Trunk Hig hway roads that have been necessitated as a result of abandonment? Can he or his department provide that information, not only for the past but for the years coming and those cases and those areas where it is known that abandonment will occur? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, I gave an example of Hig hway No. 50, and there are a number of other examples. The abandonment of the branch line from Russell to Mac Nutt required the province to take over a municipal road and upgrade it, now PR 547.

The 1986 study omitted this abandonment and its im pact completely. The only reason for its takeover was its use as a grain route. Anticipated expenditures on PR 547 will exceed .5 million to this point. PR 276 from Ste. Rose north, as a result of the abandonment of the CN line from Ste. Rose to Rorketon, this project is in the early stages of land acquisition and is expected to cost approxima tely $4.5 million when completed, in order to carry the additional truck traffic generated by the changes in the rail line system.

As a result of the abandonment of the CN Rapid City subdi vision and the diversion of grain haul from abandoned elevators along this line to communities to the north, there will be a necessity to upgrade a number of north-south provincial routes in this area. PR 354 from PR 355 to 16 is one example where upgrading which is currently being scheduled is expected to cost in excess of $1.1 million. Another example in this connection is PR 254 running north from Oak Lake, where a new bridge and roadway approaches are being planned to accommodate the truck hauls from the north, resulting from rail line ab andon ment.

It is estim ated the cost of this impr ovement will exceed $1 million. This is the kind of thing that we are putting together in the department. MR . C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, now I'm glad to hear that the department is putting that together.

Will the Min ister undertake and will he indicate to this committee tonight that he will not only collate that information, but will present it as quickly as possible to members of this committee, because I think it's im portant that the Min ister, in support of his general claim that there's going to be additional cost to the road network of Manitoba due to abandonme nt - and, Mr. Chairman, let me say that on the surface I accept it. But I think he has to go beyond that if he's going to keep making those statements.

I think that he has to, through the work of his staff, quantify that road by road and present it in some form. Nobody's going to hold the Min ister to that. Those figures of course will change over time, as well as specific areas. But I think it's very im portant that he provide that information in whatever form it exists at this time and I would hope - that's my final question, Mr. Chairman, but I would hope that the Min ister then would be prepared to indicate to the committee when we might ex pect that information in a public forum. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I would think the best way that this should be hand led initiall y, because there's going to be - this is obviously a very 1632

Monday, 4 May, 19 87 sensitive area insofar as future discussions with the Federal Government in whatever forum to determine a formula for cost-sharing in the future, and I think it's going to be necessary to do that. I would prefer tha t ini tiall y we would brief the members of the Opposition who are inte rested in this with information that we have, and the staff would be available to do that.

I would think that there would be some advantage to maintaining an ongoing liaison with members of the Opposition on this area, and perhaps we would find that to our mutual benefit in establishing truly supported positions, joint positions on some of these issues as they emerge over the next number of years into matters that really will have a great effect on our province. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, without in any way making an ind ication on behalf of our group, I dare say that, as one memb er, I look forward to those informal meetings.

We've had them with other Min isters, and they've worked out well for the most part. Can the Minis ter indicate tor the record when we might expect an invitation from him to be in attendance in his office to review this material? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I will consider whether we should do it soon with the material we have now, which is partially developed, or whether we should wait a little while long er. We could probably give enough of a briefing to show the member that there is substantial information avai labl e and it has been devel oped, gleaned from the records by the department, within a couple of weeks.

Then we could determine whether further meetings of this nature would be beneficial. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you. In the Min ister's op ening statement, he makes refe rence to transporta tion of the mobi li ty disadvantaged. I wonder if the Min ister could tell us how one goes about - like is it by a grant or a loan, or how would a community go about obtaining a vehicle, one of these little handi-vans? HON. J. PLOHMA N: Wel l, Mr .

Chairma n , the municipality or town or village should first show an interest in the program, and they could let our staff know that they're interested. They will go out and meet with them and brief them on the various aspects of the program that are available. There are some 31 communi ties now served by this program, and the staff would make themselves available at relatively short notice to visit with the community and to determine the best way to do it. Usually an independent committee is established. It's spearheaded by a service club or by nursing home staff in various areas; it depends.

The program is very flexible, and therefore has been very successful because it meets the needs of various communities according to what they have established as their priorities. We have three types of grants available, and these would all be explained to the community by the staff: the start-up grant of $6,000; and the capital grant of $1 0,000 to help them purchase their bus. They would be advised where they can purchase it and what the best way to purchase it is. Then once the service is in pla ce, they get up to $20,000 or 37.5 percent of the operating costs for ongoing operating.

They charge a user fee for clientele utilizing the service of some $2, $2.50 or $3 per trip, depending on the nature of the service. It varies from community to community. But all these details are available to people who are inte rested. MR. D. ROCAN: Mr. Chairman, also I' ve noted in the Min ister's opening remarks, he says that this program will total $41 6,900.00. Yet, in the Estima tes Book, we have th em down for $366,900, a di fference of $50,000.00. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The capital portion is the remaind er, and that's shown under Other Capital. MR. D.

ROCAN: Also the Min ister, you know, I thank him very much. Like his people did go out to Killarney .ii and he explained to them about this handi-van. I would , just hope that he would look favourably upon their request for a little handi-van. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Do you want to pass

section 5.? MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 94: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,359,200 for Hi g hways and Transporta tion, Transportation Policy and Research, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 88- pass.

Section 6. Driver and Vehicle Licensing. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, we touched on one of the major concerns that I have in this area already, and that is the exchange of information. It's still a concern that I - the Mini ster has explained the time frame that he thinks it'll take to get it implemented. I want to reinforce that the professional drivers, as well as the motoring public, I've heard concerns expressed in both areas about hopefully that the exchange of information from province to province can be expedited. 41 I understand the problem with computerization and � the costs involved.

But every month that goes by, there are probably a certain num ber of people who are at risk because of the ability of people who have had suspensions, for whatever reason, to be able to avoid the regulations under which they were being restricted. In the area of changing to a single licence plate, which the Min ister announced, he announced it on the basis also of there being a considerable demonstration in other jurisdictions that this can work.

There's no doubt that one licence plate does identi fy a vehicle, but there have been concerns expressed in various areas of the public about the increase in possible identification problems that law enforcement officials may incur. Can the Minis ter expand on the position that he took in his state ment here when he annou nced these change s? A single li cence would gen erate some $200,000 worth of savings: (

a) we've seen increases so the savings, are they going to be passed on to the - they're not going to be passed on. We know that from the announcement, pardon me. Are the savings 1633

Monday, 4 May, 1987 plus the increased costs worth the increased difficulties that could be put forward to our law enforcement officials? And (

b) if we're going to have increased income from this area, will the Minis ter give some kind of guarantee that, every time increases like this come up, we can see an offsetting figure start to show up in the total appropriations for the Highways Department, rather than simply using this department as a revenue bearing department? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we could say that this money went directly into the construction budget if the member would feel better, $2 10, 000.00.

The fact is that, any time you can achieve a savi ng, you have to consider it at this time without having an impact on services to people. We don't know for sure whether there will be a difficulty that develops that can be attributed to the single licence plate although, to the best of our information, there is nothing clearly established there insofar as the experience in other jurisdictions. Obviously, the pressures of budget reductions have been felt in other areas as well, and so Quebec and Prince Edward Island have taken those steps.

It gives an opportunit y, I guess, for business, individuals to lo cate some other kind of a pla te that doesn't resemble a licence plate or some other kind of marking in that space to advertise for tourism or business purposes or whatever - hopefully, not whatever because there are some instances where the messages might not be very appropriate. I expect maybe we'll have a few comments about it on the front of the cars. It's not something that we relish, and I didn't say, boy, I've got a good idea. I want to get rid of these licence plates in front.

It's something that was done with great reluctance, with great concern, but with an understanding of the fact that there was a $2 1 0,000 saving per year and a much greater saving when it comes time to change over those plates. A general change-over would cost in the neighbourhood of some $3 million, and it will only cost about $2 million or less when we replace all of these plates with a single plate in stead of a dual plate in 1990, or whenever the time comes to replace all those plates. So there'll be a much bigger lump-sum saving at that time, in addition to the $210 ,000 each year. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr.

Chairman, the other item that comes immedia tely to mind with licensing is the ongoing issue of whether or not all the licences should come due at one da te. Ha s the de partment or is the department currently considering the possibili ty of having drivers' licences and vehicular licences that are renewable on the anniv ersary date of the purchase? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The Registrar informs me that they're looking at issuing a licence and registration on a biannual basis, every two years, to cut down on costs and administr ative costs and so on. That is just very prelimi nary at this time though.

They're looking at it and considering it. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Well, biannual may be some im provement, but I'm sure the Min ister is well aware that one of the major concerns is the im pact on the 1634 economy with the cost of insurance and licensing right now, and I'm sure one of the answers will be that we can use a six-month payment. But the simple fact is that a two-car fami ly, if they're not both earning substantial wages, for example, to have both licences and insurance come due at the same time has quite an impa ct on the family income.

The end result is that a lot of the people who supply other services do notice a dramatic change in their operations at the time of vehicle licensing. Anything that the department can do to soften that imp act, I think, would be more than welcome across the province. HON. J. PLOHMAN: As I indicated, there is a general review. The Min ister responsible for MPIC is also looking at this whole issue of in surance and da tes and registration. The Registrar is going to be working on a joint committee with MP IC in reviewing this and looking at the options and alternatives and possibilities there. MR. D.

BLAKE: I just want one or two questions here. It follows on my questions to the Min ister in the House the other day. I'm not too sure that he has looked into this business of one licence plate as thoroughly as he might have. There are more and more instances coming to light from law enforcement officers, which I mentioned to him, and from tourist promoti

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-2-40b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 2nd hansardpdf 40b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	68af0577c4f858c7743747eb8375a36c93a51b93

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