Manitoba Hansard — 16 April 1979 (Sitting 40B, 31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-40b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

.. ... , .. ·- .. Time: 8:00 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April 16, 1979 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee come to order. Resolution 9, Item 4. (e)(1) - the Member for Virden . MR. McGREGOR: Regarding this passing of the three plants, I guess we'll call now, does Portage necessari ly employ all Manitobans, or does Manitoba get its share of all three plants somewhere near a percentage of what they put into the program? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. DOWNEY: Not necessarily all Manitobans' Mr. Chairman . MR.

McGREGOR: But over the three plants, would it be fair to assume that you do get somewhere near one-fifth - in other words, are there Manitobans working in the other plants, maybe that would be ... ? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, there are, Mr. Chairman . MR. McGREGOR: Mr. Chairman, the other question then , the subscriptions to this , how many paid-up subscriptions are there , say, in the last year, at present, or . . . ? MR. DOWNEY: Approximately 1,200 or a little more than that over the three provinces, Mr. Chairman . MR.

McGREGOR: This $474,000 that I believe we heard from the Minister earlier, will that necessarily go down, and I mean by that , some of this will be the Capital cost of putting the buildings up, so if that's reduced, there is nothing in the future then but an escalation, even be minor, in the years ahead? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman , there is indication that the operat ional costs have reduced a very small amount this last year. They've reduced from $464,000 to $446,000, a reduction of $22,000.00 .

I don't look for any big change in that , however we will be working towards trying to cut down somewhat and not impairing the operation of the research facilities. MR. McGREGOR: Then, Mr. Chairman , who really guides this program between the three provinces? Is it some of each minister 's ctaff, or is there a designated board to run all three provinces, or is there indeed separate boards individually for each province? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, there 's a board set up from within the three provinces . Each province has, I believe , it 's three from each province to operate the three institutes .

Also, I am informed that there is an additional chairman besides that . MR. McGREGOR: Well, is there any way . . . I'm still concerned with the protection that the farmers get from their main power unit , and now I'm thinking of the tractor , who, we know the Nebraska test tests the output , horsepower , the pumps tell you how much pressure or how much fuel you use, but the workings of that tractor is never really put down on paper , and I realize a testing plant could not put 2,000 hours on a tractor to give it the real test.

But is there not a mechanism where new tractor owners could indeed report to each provincial plant saying, and taking any kind of a tractor; I can think of tremendo us manufacturers that maybe come out with a tractor known as the Comfort King . So help me, that had to be the roughest tractor that ever God put breath in; but those are just things that , unti l it' s in the field , and the farmers report , that name was off , 2557

Monday, April 16, 1979 and they still had a good tractor . I've got one of them.

And there 's a couple of other manufacturer ..... s of tractors that had been notoriously building and selling, I would say, bad tractors. 1 certainly won 't name them , but they are ones that anyone in the farm business could certa inly name pretty quickly ; and some of us get not hooked with them, but buy them at maybe reduced prices, and if, you know, we know there's cummings diesels, or we know there 's diesels , we know the pumps, and bought the gears - and caterpillar maybe a very good manufacturer of farm tractors had several models with extremely weak bearings ; and many people bought and had the problems of breaking down.

I was thinking it over at supper hour , that there surely is a way that a secretary or a part-time secretary could keep track of tho se, so that I think every owner would be glad to report that such-and-such a universal consistently gave out ; or that the draw bar, at an angle, that at certain corners wore faster than the rest of it; minor things that that company maybe didn't have a chance to test out for, as I say, probably a couple of thousand hours before those things show up; and also with the fact that there are many European tractors coming in ..

Per horsepower , their rated horsepower , I guess in the Nebraska test maybe peop le are over there also, but per horsepower, I'm thinking of 150 horsepower 4-wheel drive, you can probably bring a Russian or German make in, or a Czechosl ovakian make, at $10,000 or $12,000 less than the North American built one; and I wonder again if we didn 't have somewhere of getting hold of a book; getting hold of a report ; because we know salesmen are there to sell you these things , and the companies do not really brag about their weaknesses .

I used to admire back in the '60s, when a similar thing as this, a dealer who had that on his desk , I looked at to be an honest dealer , and those are the kind of things .. . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR.

DOWNEY: Well, again we go back to say that maybe there 's a possibility that some of the information that comes out in the Nebraska Test - maybe some of that information could be put -· into more perspective for the western Prairie farmers through the Prairie Agriculture Machinery • • Institute, that they could relate it to how that type of engine or horsepower unit would perform under Manitoba or Saskatchewan or Alberta conditions .

Again, go baGk to show the concern that I would have , the money that it would cost to go into a complete tractor testing operation, I think it would be far too costly for us to enter into as a • total tractor typE! testing, but there could be parts of it that could be recommended to the board to be considered for a more practical type of report for western farmers . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden . MR. McGREGOR: Mr. Chairman, does this bracket also include the Farm Machine Board? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR.

McGREGOR: I must compliment the Manitoba Farm Machine Board, who I know one of the members is to my immediate right, but I have had nothing but success in taking a problem that a part was sitting here in somebody 's machine shop , the local dealer backordered , backordered , backordered, and they come to a member , maybe me, and that afternoon that part was out on • the way to that garage.

And they were very appreciative of that action of the Machine Board , and ,.. the problem is, why it took them to jolt two different companies and two different kinds that were completely out of my constituency , but we got action real quick , and I hope that kind of a board ~ stays in action to, in this case, just simply jack up the companies and get them to look in that bin and the part was there. So is there any change in the membership on the board in recent months? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. DOWNEY: No, there hasn't been, Mr. Chairman.

The operation of the board will continue as it has been in the past . The plans are to have it continue on in the future to service the farm - community, and give consideration to some of the problems that are developed between companies and the user. In lots of cases, I'm sure that there have been many dealers who have looked to the board to help them with solving of some of their problems too . MR. McGREGOR: Well, Mr. Chairman , I hope the Minister would take note that I would like to see something done so the new tractor owners can lay their complaint unofficially somewhere that 2558

Monday, April 16, 1979 ..;.. anyone can look at and say "There's the 1505 or the 1805 or the 990 or the 1426, whatever those makes, there's what 200 reports are". There is a universal and I certainly know of that, so with .... that Mr. Chairman, if the Minister would take that into consideration in the future, I would like to know the members of the board and talk to them on that very point. Is there not a way, and I'm sure I wouldn't want the expense of going into the large field tests that are necessary, but I think the actual farm conditions are the real test, and I think the majority of farmers would appreciate having the opportunity to take

part in sending a report in. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. - .. .. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister, in his comments dealing with the prairie agricultural testing labs in the three prairie provinces, hinted that he favoured the one-province concept. Could he elaborate on his position on that, indicating - at least that was my impression - that he certainly could not agree with the decision of having three separate testing units. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the reference I made was, I believe, in the concept of the machinery testing institutes that they, in fact, can serve a useful purpose for not only the total agricultural community, the farm people, but for the development of machinery for western Canada, for potential producers of certain kinds of machinery.

I feel that the three facilities built - they were built, I will agree , they were built three different years - starting some three years ago, that in fact we - and I again will be monitoring it fairly closely - see the use of those three facilities, if in fact the staging of them, one each year for three years wasn't a little more rapid than possibly we required, and might have been able to be built over a period of, say, six years with reducing the operational costs which all three provinces are now involved in picking up. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , is the Minister indicating that the operational costs regardless of where the units are built, if you are going to be testing certain kinds of equipment, that the operational costs will be similar or very similar regardless of where they are being tested? Whether you have one unit or three units? If I am wrong, I would like the Minister to elaborate on it because I am not sure whether his position of now saying that there should have been only one unit or is he indicating that the whole concept once it was agreed to went off the ground faster than he would have liked. Is that what he is telling us? MR.

DOWNEY: Well, what I am referring to directly is the operational costs of three facilities, that if you only had one facility to pick up the operational costs it would have been somewhat less than the operation of those three plants and I feel that again, monitoring of those three plants after a full year of operation will tell us if, in fact, we are over-capacitated in having the three facilities available. MR. URUSKI: Could the Minister tell me how he views about being over-capacitated in terms of the number of machines tested in each centre or what is he really referring to? MR.

DOWNEY: Well, I guess what I am referring to are the types of machinery the capacity of an individual plant's capacity to test either all the machinery that needs to be tested in a given period of time or as the demand increased for testing of other machinery, that the facilities provided after the need be demonstrated. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, correct me if I am wrong. But as I understand the testing stations, each station in each province tests a set of equipment designed for a particular line of equipment.

I believe the Manitoba one is primarily dealing in forage crops and harvesters and the like and Saskatchewan, I think, is primarily the combines and combine related testings or cereal crops and the Alberta one is another line. Is the Minister indicating that if all these were combined into one unit that the central unit would not have to be expanded to the point to be able to adequately test these three , shall we say, industry sectors of equipment , or what is he indicating? MR. DOWNEY: What I am indicating is, Mr.

Chairman , if a plant or a facility that is available to test machine ry, in fact , has equipment in it for testing forage as he referred to, or combines that after that machinery reached its total capacity of use, then that

section of it could be transferred to one of the other provinces. 2559

Monday, April 16, 1979 All the point I am trying to make is that I feel that the rate at which it was built and we are looking at the operational costs of those three plants, the government might have moved a little more rapidly than it should . I'm not saying that we shouldn 't have advanced to the three plants, what I'm saying is, the speed in which it took place without the total demonstrated need of those three plants. Operational costs are high.

I think he'll admit that almost a half a million dollars, which is only 20 percent of the operations, is a lot of money going into that particular type of testing of machinery. Needed? Yes, but it might have been somewhat less if hadn 't had to operate three buildings . MR. URUSKI: That's fine, on this one. Mr.

Chairman , the Minister - last , I believe, October, if I recall correctly , reading in the Co-operator - made a speech to the Manitoba Institute of Agronomists , wherein he, amongst other things, indicated that when the Canadian Wheat Board - and I questioned this in the House some time ago - the Canadian Wheat Board up a review committee to review the quotas on deliveries to country elevators, and that they were seeking submissions; the Minister, at the Institute of Agronomists indicated that the province, and he said he would be making a submission to the Canadian Wheat Board with respect to the quota reviews that were made.

I believe that that review has been completed and I am wondering whether the Minister would be prepared to indicate his government 's statements and policy direction that it has given to the Canadian Wheat Board with respect to the review that was conducted. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask the member if he is still on the Technical and Economics Branch of the department? Is that what he is referring to? • ... MR. URUSKI: That is correct, Mr. Chairman .

I believe that it would be likely the Economics Branch, and if it's not the place to discuss it, I won't, would likely be providing information to the Minister of any other Branch in terms of the Wheat Boards. If there is another place that it should be discussed, I have no difficulty there, Mr. Chairman. MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr . Chairman, I would refer the member to 6.(

c) where we get into grain transportation and marketing, if he would discuss it at that point? MR. URUSKI: No problem at all, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (eX1)-pass - the Honourable Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , the Farm Machinery Board falls under this

section and I would like to ask the Minister and I believe the Branch is aware of some concerns that some dealers, and I am specifically speaking about dealers dealing in one particular area and there may be other commodities or other machines . The one I refer to specifically is a round hay baler of U.S. manufacture . I believe the baler name is Lundell , is the manufacturer I think, from Iowa. That corporation, and I don't have my correspondence with me, but that corporation put out a round baler that was delivered into this province a number of years ago .

Several dealers took delivery of that baler throughout the province and attempted to market , as a matter of fact, some of them who tried it out had little success in making the machine operate . But the problem that arose was not so much .. . well , it stems from the machine not being able to operate .

It so happened that the Canadian distributor had his office in Edmonton, Alberta, and the Winnipeg outlets were I guess an office and a telephone number, that after a period of time , disappeared , and the Manitoba dealers had to resort to dealing with the Alberta distributor which, needless to say, the Machine Board and the dealers in question, through their own means and legal action , were able to contact them but received very little, if any, response to corrective measures and/or whether the manufacturer would take the equipment back.

The last information that I had on my file was to the effect that the manufacturer had indicated that he was willing to supply the necessary modifications to the unit and those dealers should be receiving same very shortly. And I think that very shortly has now taken maybe several, one year • or two years. Those modi fications are neither here nor there. The balers have been, by the dealer that I am aware of, was virtually paid for as acceptance on delivery , but whether all of it was paid for is unknown.

But anyway, the dealer, I believe invested around $5,000, which may have been the wholesale price of the baler, and they are stuck as a dealer , not only as a farmer. I gather the bond provisions within the province are to the degree that if the bond was called, those dealers would be in a very poor bargaining position or a poor position to receive maybe any more than 25 or 30 cents on the dollar in terms of their investment. I'm wondering whether the department and the minister is considering modifcations to the Act or changes in regulations if that is possible 2560

• • Monday, April 16, 1979 with respect to the bond provisions as they now relate to distributors with in the Province of Manitoba, of farm machinery? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman , the member brings up a point as far as changing legislation to protect the dealers who would get involved in such a situation. The Chairman of the Board informs me that they have a Review Committee at this particular time , reviewing legislation to recommend the changes to it to take care of such problems that are before us. As far as making it retroactive I think it would be very difficult.

The people who are involved, I guess if the bond is called, and there is a shortfall then it's unfortunate , but my understanding is that the kits that were sent up have been tested on the balers that he refers to and in fact have not panned out to be what they should have done, and the Chairman of the Board informs me that they are calling the bond of that particular company . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , I understand that there was correspondence from sister provinces as well to this manufacturer.

I believe that in the interests of maintaining a healthy dealership in Manitoba of frrm machinery, that it is incumbent even on the government to make sure that they are not put into a straightjacket and to be financially liable any more than they should be, and in a case like this, I believe that whatever action should be taken by Manitoba should be, or at least consultation should be held with the sister provinces, whether they are moving along the same lines , and if they are, will the province be moving at this session or when will it be moving in this area? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

DOWNEY: It has been indicated to me, Mr. Chairman , that the other provinces are moving in this same direction and we will consider the legislation that will correct this anomaly in the coming year . MR. URUSKI: There is likely not , from what the Minister tells me, there will be no legislation put forward with respect to th is type of a situat ion , this session . MR. DOWNEY: That's correct , Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: (e)(1)-pass. The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I would like to know from the Minister just what else we can talk abou t, under this item .

As I understand the item , it deals with two aspects , technical services and economics. I understand there are two directors involved in th is one

part icular branch. Is that not cor rect? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, there will only be one director involved in this program, in this appropriation , after the re-organization .

The other parts of the department that we have in here - the general farm management; CanFarm , which we are not any longer involved in with the Federal government ; the administration of the Beef Income Assurance Plan, there 's one position in here for that; and then the entomology extens ion ; pesticide licensing ; the insecticide distribution, apiary specialists and apiary inspection are the other areas that are in this Technical and Economics branch . MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman . Could the Minister tell us who the people are that are heading up the respective components within this appropriation.

There are two directors. Who are the directors now? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , there is only one director , and that's Terry Oatway . ., MR. USKIW: So, the Minister is telling us that we have one director , who is in charge of the technical services program and the economi cs branch ? MR. DOWNEY: That's right. Anyth ing to do with the economics that's in the area that we're discussing . MR. USKIW: All right , well then I would like to know who is the director of Economics then, in the department? 2561

Monday, April 16, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: At this particular time, Bill Johnson is in that position , Mr. Chairman . MR. USKIW: I'm trying to understand . Is that particular component the item that we are now debating as well? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman, the

part in which we're discussing now, with the re-organization, we have the the 'economics and that relates to the production , as I referred to , CanFarm, General Farm Management , in this departmen t, which comes under t~e direc torship of Terry Oatway. MR. USKIW: The problem . Knowing the individual , my understanding of it, that he was an engineer, not an economist , and I don 't know how he is going to head up CanFarm and all the economics activities with an engineering certific ate. I'm trying to understand how this Minister is mixing those two things. MR. DOWNEY: Well , Mr.

Chairman , the member may have a hard time understanding that, but as I explained, CanFarm is no longer within the department and really , we are looking at department re-organization and within that we have, as far as being the head of the programs, when we look at the General Farm Management we have Gerry Therrien, who is heading up that particular part of the department. MR. USKIW: Maybe I'm a little slow this evening , Mr. Chairman . Would the Minister tell me then what the respective roles are of the head of the economics branch , which we have sitting with us here, and the other director which is Mr.

Oatway . What are their respective responsibi lities, and should we be debating them under separate headings? MR. DOWNEY: Well , Mr. Chairman , the individual who I refer to, Mr. Oatway , who is in charge of this as a director , it's the service to the department , to the production part of our dep artment , the other individual who is referred to, we can debate that under the marketing branch , Mr. Chairman, where the balance of the Economic branch is now transferred to . -(Interjec tion)- That's right. t, What hasn 't remained , Mr.

Chairman , with the departmen the Technical and Economics Branch that we're discussing right now which I said was general farm management who is under the control of Gerry Therrien . -.... MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman, if the head of the Economics Branch is to be debated under '! the other item which is another page down, then what is the logic of not having the director of this particular expenditure with the Committee as opposed to the director of the Economics Branch? I am trying to understand why we don 't have Mr. Oatway here instead of Mr. Johnson . .. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , I understand the director is unable to be with us because of another meeting elsewhere . MR. USKIW: I would now like to ask the Minister whether there is any provincial funding of Can Farm. MR. DOWNEY: Not in this year 's estimates , Mr. Chairman . MR. USKIW: Is the Minister telling us that we are through with the program as far as financial involvement of the taxpayers is concerned? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. USKIW: Yes, I want to get into the area of the insecticide distribution program . What is the policy with respect - well Mr. Chairman I'm not finished yet.

What is the policy with respect to the purchase of insecticides? Has there been a change in policy where we have provided supplies bf chemicals to municipalities , individuals , etc .? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, we've had no major outbreaks of where the chemical would have to be used. As far as any change in policy of any part of that program it remains the same as it's been over the last few years . MR. USKIW: Yes, well , Mr. Chairman, I would presume then that we also can debate the Agricultural Water Services Programs under this item , is that not correct? 2562 .... .

Monday, April 16, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, they would come under the Item 7, Agricultural Land and Water Development Division . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 12. MR. USKIW: Resolution 12 - Land and Water Development Division. Well , more specifically, Mr. Chairman, I'm talking about the technical services that are provided ·:> for the establishment of sewer and water facilities. Is that still under that item? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. DOWNEY: Yes, that can be debated under Agricultural Land and Water Development Division, Mr. Chairman. • MR.

USKIW: Yes, what are the range of technical services provided under this appropriation, then? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , the total entomology

section of the department ; the agricultural engineering on buildings on the farm waste ; power and machinery; the Farm Machinery Board; and again we've discussed the Agriculture Machinery Institute ; plus a portion of the general farm management

section . MR. USKIW: Yes, with respect to agricultural wastes , what is the Minister 's position re the recent report that was tabled in the House with respect to environmental control and waste management , and so on? Has the Minister adopted a policy pursuant to that report , or is it too early to expect that at this stage? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , because of our involvement in the last few days , and we will be having the department review the report completel y and I will have an opportunity then to take a look at it and come forward with our positio n as far as the report is concerned - the final repo rt.

MR. USKIW: Well , with a spec ific item then , Mr. Chairman, can the Minister tell us what the department's involvement is at the present time , or was recently , with respect to the pollution problems at East Selkirk? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I've been informed that there has been some involvement by the Director in look ing at the problem . I have no report that has been presented to me on that specific issue that the member brings forward . However , I'm assured by Mr. Hudek that he has been in discuss ion with the environment peop le so there has been some contact with our department. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , I would like to know whether the Department of Agriculture has made any recommendat ions that either have been followed up on by the owners of the ranch or the feed lot, or whether they have made recommendations that have not been acceptable and are still being debated and challenged ? MR. DOWNEY: Well , Mr. Chairman , I am informed that there aren't any reports or evidence that the feed lot that is in question is contr ibuting to the contamination or to the problem that the member is referring to. MR.

USKIW: Well, perhaps this isn't the Minister's jurisdiction but, then why is the government involved in diverting the drainage from that farm into the adjacent creek bed if there is no particular • problem relative to the drainage from the farm into the area? MR. DOWNEY: I guess, Mr. Chairman , the best way would be to have the Director who is responsible report when he is available to me so that I can report to the Committee on that specific item , and I would refe r back to it. MR.

USKIW: Would the Minister then agree that he would furnish to this Committee or to the House , if this Committ ee has comp leted its wor k, all of the information that he has through his technical people rela tive to this department' s involvement in that issue in that particular 2563

Monday, April 16, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: Well , Mr. Chairman , I can check with the department to see what their involvement was and report to the Committee at that particular time. Then we can decide whether, in fact, that information - there 's anything that would be useful to the Committee . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I don 't think the Minister wants us to unduly prolong the Estimates of the Departmen t of Agriculture . That wouldn 't be in keeping with the position of this department.

Perhaps if he would simply agree that when the information becomes available that that information be tabled in the House, and that would satisfy our members of this Committee . MR. DOWNEY: Well , again I would have to check and see what information was available , what really has been done as far as our department's concerned , before 1 can indicate ... MR. USKIW: I should refresh the Minister 's memory on th is one , or perhaps even give him some information.

I am aware , and I think the department is aware, that our technical staff have been involved on that particular site for a number of years giving advice, or whatever , but they were involved, and they have been involved since the problem of ground water pollution has presented itself . So all I want to know is what this department's role was with respect to that problem. What were the recommendations, if any, and if they were followed? And if there were no recommendations , then I have no problem but I would like to know that at whatever time the Minister has that information . MR. DOWNEY: Well, again Mr.

Chairman, I'll go back and see what role was played . The member indicates to me that there was . I would check with the individuals responsible and report back what, in fact, there was for a report, Mr. Chairman . MR. USKIW: Yes, well do I take it then the Minister agrees that if there is information then does become available , that we will have it tabled in the House or a statement from him , or whatever . MR. DOWNEY: That's right, Mr. Chairman .

I will indicate to the Committee if there is a report that is of some subsequence that to satisfy him and the Committee that I would cons ider - but first I want to see what the involvement of the department has been . I have not had a report to this time and I will not say, well, I'll table it, until I've had a chance to see what is available . MR. USKIW: The Ministe r is hedging all over the waterfront here.

All I want to know from him is whether he's prepared to indicate to us either in this Committee or to the House if this Committee has completed the role that his department played with respect to that problem , and whether or not his department has made any recommendation and , if so, what they were and if they are being adhered to or accepted. That's all I want to know , it's very very precise and very very simple, Mr. Chairman . Now the Minister is telling me that he doesn 't know if he can answer me until he sees what the report is, if there is a report or what the information is, if there is information.

You know , that is a bit of nonsense . I mean , we are debating his Estimates and if there is information there we are entitled to have it. That is the purpose of going through the Estimates debate , Mr. Chairman . We cannot function unless we are provided with information that is available to the Minister and should be available to this Committee, you know. If there is nothing there , we'll be satisfied that there is nothing there .

But if there is a recommendation that flows from the Department of Agricu lture and their involvement in that issue, then we have a right to know what it was and whether or not those recommendations are being followed up on. MR. DOWNEY: Well , Mr. Chairman , I go back . I know that the member has been question ing the Minister responsible for Environment , how they came up with their recommendations, if in fact there was some input from the Department of Agriculture , I would have to find that out.

He is possibly receiving the same information from that Minister and I would make the decision if there is any more to add, I would consider adding to that as far as our department was concerned . MR. USKIW: The Minister either isn't listening or he doesn 't want to give us an answer. You know, he keeps telling us about giving consideration to giving up of information to this Committee . And that has been one of our problems of this particular debate, Mr. Chairman , since Day One, is that he talks in terms of maybe, maybe not , I will determine that sometime in due course .

Well , this Committee can't function that way . If he doesn 't want to give us the information then I can give a speech on why he doesn 't want to give us the information. If he wants to give us the information 2564 - • - ..

Monday, April 16, 1979 then let's not waste time in debate and let's agree that whenever it is forthcoming that we will have it. I'm not interested in a big debate on it. All I want to know is whether it will be available ,• when the report is available to the Ministe r and if there is anything to report. MR. DOWNEY: Well again I go back, Mr. Chairman , to what I have said .

Firstly , I will indicate to the members of the Committee what the inpu t was from the department and as far as the report that went through from the Department of Agricu lture , I'm sure was used in the total recommendation or what has been proceeded by the Department of Environment. I cannot indicate to him anything more at this particula r time . If there 's information that can add to the debate with the Department of Agriculture as it is a part of what we're discussing , then I would again make that information available . MR.

USKIW: Can the minister take as notice and bring back the information whenever he receives it either to this Committee or to the House whether the Department of Agriculture has made any recommendations to Environment or to anyone with respect to diverting the flow of drainage from • Right Angle Farms that normally flowed into a quarry , but was diverted very recently to Cook's Creek. Can the minister tell me whether that was a recommendation of his staff, and that's all I want to know , Mr. Chairman? It either was or it wasn 't. MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I would find that out for the member . MR.

USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would like to know from the minister just what is the role of the technical services people in terms relative to the Water Services Program that has been part of this department 's program for now four or five years, what is the present role of that group? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , they have been transferred over to the Land and Agricultural Lab and Water Development Division . -(Interjec ti on)- .. MR. USKIW: So we can debate that under that

section . All right. MR. DOWNEY: That 's right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the member finished? MR. USKIW: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairma n. Could the ministe r indicate specifically in the Economics Branch, how many staff were there within the Economics Section? MR. DOWNEY: The numbers that directly relate to farm management that are in the department at this particular point are 12, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , could the minister indicate to me how many staff were within the Economics Branch that would have normally made it up with this transfer?

Now , how many would have gone over to the Marketing Branch? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , 3 were transferred to the Marketing Branch - 3 , Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , when the minister talks about general farm management I'd like to be able to understand that better. What do you really mean by .. . when he mentioned about 12 staf f under the general farm management port ion , could you ind icate what that means ? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , when we speak of general farm management , we speak of product ion, econom ics, support staff to the Regional Farm Managemen t in the area of bookkeeping and genera l farm managemen t cost o f pro duction, that ty pe of work . - (Interjection) - . MR. URUSKI: . . .analyses , as if it woul d be made the cost of production for example to the Income 2565

Monday, April 16, 1979 Assurance Plan and those costs that would be related the farm economics courses that are offered rurally; accounting courses and those kinds of things are part of that . . . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, that type of information as far as some of the work it will be now in the Marketing Branch; it relates more with the marketing and that type of management within the farm units.

It's supportive to the total agriculture production Division and it's pretty hard to cut the distinct lines of what responsibility is as he is quite aware and as we're all quite aware that farm management covers quite a large area. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, in his reorganization , could the minister tell me whether his reorganization of his department has been completed? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman. We are in the process of reorganizing the department at th is time, and it is not finalized at this time. - MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister made an announcement in his speech that the department .!- has been organized into four areas, four prime areas, including the General Management Division , which would be Management, Agricultural Production, Regional Extension , Marketing and Land and Water - five areas . What other reorganization are we intending to see? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman , I believe I indicated there were four areas , not five . MR. URUSKI: There were four major areas, plus Administra tion . MR. DOWNEY: Well no Mr.

Chairman , we are in the Agricultural Production Division, we're in the Agricultural Market Development Division, we're in the Agricu ltural Land and Water Division, and we're in the overall Administration Management of those divisions , Mr. Chairman . And we are in the process of reorganizing. There are certain people involved who , as I stated earlier , we have two ADM positio ns that aren't filled at this particular time, and we are in the process , and that is the departments in which we'll end up with . MR. URUSKI: If I may, Mr.

Chairman , the extension, the Regional Agricultural Extension Branch, is that also under Agricultural Production? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: So then we have two fairly large divisions under one posi tion, then , is that correct? It's shown as two separate votes , other than your statement. MR. DOWNEY: That's right, Mr. Chairman , it is shown as two parts to the Estimate Book, but it comes under one division . MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , the Minister indicated that of the Economics Branch, 12 staff are remaining within the Agricultural Production Division, but 3 are being transferred to the Marketing Branch, in my questions to him . Is that where the Director of Economics will be, with those 3 staff? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman , as I stated earlier , we have three positions that transferred to the Marketing Division , of which two have people in them , and one is vacant at this particular time. There was a reduction of three because of the CanFarm , which I stated the other day - the reduction of CanFarm .

The Director that you 're referring to is not transferred to the Marketing but is in fact part of the planning and management of the department, which we discussed earlier , Mr. Chairman, which comes under 1.(c). MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass - the Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: No, Mr. Chairman , now the Minister has me confused . Does the Minister have a Director of Planning and Management , within the department? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, would the member ask the question again? I'm trying to get the information for him here. 2566 .. .. _,

.;- · .. Monday, April 16, 1979 MR. URUSKI: I believe I'm the one that's confused. The Minister indicated that the Director 's position , the Director of Economics , since the Director of Technical Services is the Director for the Resolution that we're under , 4.(

e) Techn ical and Economics Branch , and that the present Director of Economics, his salary is to be found under the Planning and Management Branch, and I asked the question, well, is there not already a Director of Planning and Management in the department? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman, there is no Director in Planning and Management. That is the gentleman referred to, Mr. Johnson , is working in that area but not as a Director or an ADM . MR. URUSKI: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Planning and Management then is headed up by whom, an ADM? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: And that's Mr. Lacomy , I presume?

MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Then what would Mr. Johnson's role be in that area? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , he is involved in the economics and the discussion that we talked about earlier, in the stabilization work that is being done , in that particular area at this time . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , now maybe the Min ister has me confused because I thought he just told me that those 12 staff were rema ining in the Technical Services Branch of Economics, and that is handled by someone else. Could he tell me who is handling what, then? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , as I stated , Mr: Johnson , who is now in Management, who comes under the Greg Lacomy shop , an ADM , is working in that area . We have three individuals, as 1 stated , moved to the Market Research or to the Market Division of the department. We have three CanFarm people who have been deleted, and we have nine that remain in the Technical and Economics that we have been discuss ing. MR. URUSKI: Those , if I may make sure that I understand . . . MR. DOWNEY: I'm sorry , Mr. Chairman ; I have one other addition . There were three individuals that were a part of the Planning Secretariat under Statistics .

MR. URUSKI: Those are under this present 4.(e)? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , now did I understand the Minister correctly that the present Director of Economics has been transferred to the Planning and Management Division of the department, outside of a directorsh ip role? He is no longer a Director? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Does that constitute a demotion, or what is the score? Can the Minister explain that? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Well, Mr. Chairman , the gentleman that we're speaking about was a Director of the Econom ics Branch .

Now we know that the Economics Branch has been broken up, the greatest portion of nine staff plus four of the stat istics, I believe , stayed with the Technical Services Branch, Techn ical Economics Branch . Three went to the new Marketing Branch under 6.(b), although the Director didn 't go there . The Director came back to the Administration Branch , of which he is no longer a Director. Now, what does that tell you, Mr. Chairman? Is that a demotion or what is that? Can the Ministe r explai n? 2567

Monday, April 16, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: The honourable member can figure it however he likes. It is not a demotion . As I said, we're not totally finished with the reorganization of the department as far as classification is concerned, and the individual is being used as a support to the Deputy Minister . MR. URUSKI: Well, Mr. Chairman, since the Minister doesn't what he is going to do, or at least that's what he is letting on to us, that he doesn't know what he is going to do , he has already set the targets but he doesn 't know where he is going to get the shells , in terms of his reorganization.

Can he tell me what responsibili ties he will be assigning to the Director that he has demoted? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , how many times do I have to tell the member that he is not demoted, and if he wants to use that terminology he is quite free to do so in this Committee but that is not the case , Mr. Chairman. He is in advisory capacity to management and is at the same pay as he was as a Director. If the individual recommends that he should be reduced, I would have to disagree with him.

I think that we have a lot of work to do in the area of Research and support to the management of the Department of Agriculture, of which this individual is highly qualified . We still have, as I indicated , two ADM positions that are not filled at this particular time. We have some other work that we're doing and I feel confident the individ ual that is supportive to the administration at this time is fully qualified. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I am not arguing about anyone 's qualifications; I am asking the Minister what his intentions are, because it is not I who am reorganizing the department , it is he who is reorganizing the department. It appears to me, Mr. Chairman, in the Minister's own words, that we had a Director who was in charge of a Branch of some roughly 15 people. The Branch was broken off . Some were left with the present Director and three were transferred elsewhere.

What other assumption can one come to other than the Min ister is indicating to us that, yes, we had a Director but we really now can 't find anything for him to do, so we have put him into the Administration Branch and that's where he will sit until we find what we're going to do with him. Now, the Minister says that that's not it; this is what our intentions are. That's what I want to hear. The previous administration certainly didn't have any quarrel with the qualifications because of the direction we gave and the position that the man held .

It is your government now that has toed this reorganization and has made the changes . You explain the changes, Mr. Chairman. MR. DOWNEY: Well , again, Mr. Chairman, I will go back and say that the individual is being used as an advisor and a co-ordinator to management , and I don 't know what more explanation the individual wants. MR. URUSKI: Well, Mr. Chairman, could the Minister define the scope of duties of the work that the Director is doing now, or the former Director is doing now? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr . Chairman , I referred to some of the work in stabilization that is being looked at.

We have been in discussion with the federal government, I talked about it earlier today that in fact there had been discussions taking place . He is the individual that is on that Committee , as far as the government is concerned , and because of his experience in the Economics field over the past few years, we feel that that is pretty much a full-time job at this particular time. MR. URUSKI: The full-time job in terms of federal-provincial relations in dealing with stabilization plans , is that what you're referring to , Mr. Chairman? MR.

DOWNEY: Well, plus supportive to the general administration of the Department of Agriculture in other Economics areas . I'm sure that , if not full-time in that area, he is available to the department to . . . If you want to get into specifics ' I suppose we could . . . MR. URUSKI: I want to . I want to understand what he's doing because his staff has been removed from him, and so what does he do? MR.

DOWNEY: Well, again, he is involved with what members are quite familiar with, I'm sure , and that is the general support to the senior administration, which in fact over the past few years have had a Planning Secretariat and that type of support staff . This is the area in which the individual is working at. 2568

-- Monday, April 16, 1979 MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, are there any staff under his direction , in terms of the Planning Secretariat that the Minister is talking about, or who is assigned to him? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: No what, Mr. Chairman? MR. DOWNEY: Well, the question you asked, why there any staff underneath the individual and I said "No". MR. URUSKI: Well, Mr. Chairman, could the Minister tell me who he co-ordinates and what he co-ordinates? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, with the other branches of the Department of Agriculture as far as the economics are concerned. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, is this an area of duplication of responsibility , in terms of positions, where we have an Economics Branch and we have the Technical Services Branch doing two things, and then we have the former Director of Economics co-ordinating the two? Is this a duplication or what is this? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: (e)(1)-pass - the Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR.

USKIW: Yes, perhaps the Minister would be in a position to indicate to us what role the department is playing with respect to, I presume it's the Economics Branch , meetings, seminars, c> etc ., involving production of different commodities in the area of marketing . MR. DOWNEY: I don 't quite . . . MR. USKIW: All right, I will be specific . MR. DOWNEY: Could he be more specific, Mr. Chairman? MR. USKIW: Yes. What role was the department involved in at a meeting, I believe, of corn growers in Steinbach? What was the department's role at that meeting very recently? MR. or DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, it could have been the ag rep the GDA Corn Committee under the new Value Added Crop Agreement , Mr. Chairman. MR. USKIW: Can the Minister tell me who paid for the marketing spokesman, consultant, speaker, or whatever his title was, at that particular meeting, whether it was a departmental expense or whether it was at some other organization 's expense? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, it wasn't a government expense . MR. USKIW: Was it a government sponsored meeting? Was it MDA that . . . I see. MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman , at this point I have very little information on the meeting that the member is referring to. To our knowledge, there has been no approval to pay anybody to be a part of that meeting, as far as the Acting Deputy or me, as the Minister, to authorize payment. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, apparently there was a meet ing and, as I understand, it was sponsored by the Manitoba Department of Agriculture, and the subject was marketing and the use of the futures market and apparently the spokesman that was there was advocating to the farmers that they get into this futures business and get into the Commodity Exchange business .

And on questioning from the audience , he admitted that 75 percent of the participants in that particular marketing system are losers and 25 percent are winners , and I'm wondering on what basis the Manitoba Department of Agriculture would want to encourage farm ers to get involved in something that they might not be able to handle adequately and , in which case, it could result in bankruptcies of farms, and so 2569

Monday, April 16, 1979 on. I think it's a very important poin t. If MDA staff are doing that, I would hope that the Minister is aware of it and , if he is aware of it, that he is prepared to defend that kind of a use of departmental staff and money . So I simpl y give him notice that I would want that inform ation. If we're not involved, fine. If we are, I would like to know the logic of it. MR. DOWNEY : Well, Mr.

Chairman , again I think we can debate that point over in the area of Agricultural Marketing and Development , but as far as I'm concerned the Department of Agriculture, under the Economics Branch, is more to the support to the production side to the farm people and to the department. As I say, we can get into that debate , which I'm sure we will, when it comes to the Marketing Division of the dep artment. It will give him an opportunity to . . . MR. USKIW: I'm not terribly interested in taking up the time of the Committee .

If the Minister will undertake to answer the question that I have put, then I will leave it at that. There is no point in belabouring the issues . Okay . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I am quite prepared to provide that information and enter into the debate with the member at that

part icular time. MR. CHAIRMAN: (e)(1)-pass; (e)(2)-pass; (e)-pass - the Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , could the Minister indicate whether the department made submi ssions to the Clean Environment Commission on the study of animal waste? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Was the submission made on behalf of the Department of Agriculture , as far as professional staff? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Could the Minister indicate whether the final report incorporated and utilized the recommendations made by staff members? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I haven't had an opportun ity to fully analyze the final report so when I indicate, on the other question I was asked, as far as the involvement of the department and the report in which it was brough t forward, our response to it. We will know at that particular time the input that came from the department how it was looked upon . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister have a copy of the departm ent 's submission to the Clean Environment Commission? Could that be made available to members of the Committee? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Thank you very much . MR.

CHAIRMAN: (e)(2)-pass ; (e)-pass ; (f)

(1) Agricultural Training : Salaries-pass - the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , we can't just pass that item. That's just not right. Yes, I wonder if the Minister wou ld tell us what he is doing in this particular

section of his department. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, we're in the area of the 4-H and youth specialists, under which comes • .. the . . . !-- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order , please . 4.(

f) Agricultural Training : (f)(1) - the Honourable Minister . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I would expect to have order in this Committee so I can discuss the Estimates of the department , and I am referring to the 4-H and youth specialists , which are in the cent ral region. I'm sorry, not the central region , the Winnipeg office . We go to the area of the Agricultural Extension Centre , the administration a and the food services in Brandon . 2570

..-- Monday, April 16, 1979 Under the grants we have the - and I'll just discuss them briefly - we have the Farm Vacation Association, which will receive a grant of $15,000 this year . Community Studies $25,000.00. The Manitoba Women's Institute, which is made up of $24,000.00. We have some transfers out of the department to the Department of Manpower , and I will get to those. We also have the Agricultural Manpower Services, the Portage Action Program. We have the Selkirk Training Plant, which has been transferred to the Department of Manpower . MR. USKIW: Which program to the . . . ? MR.

DOWNEY: The Selkirk Training Plant, Mr. Chairman . It's not in the Department of Agriculture Estimates; I said it has been transferred to the Department of Manpower . And then the Branch Administration, which is basically the same . MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass? The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . He gave us the 4-H Youth Specialists, Winnipeg Office . Of the total budget that we have, $1.226 million, what does the branch, 4-H Youth Specialists, Winnipeg Office, entail in terms of dollars and staff? MR. DOWNEY: The staff, Mr.

Chairman, is made up of 2.3 staff man years and dollars of $62,500.00. MR. URUSKI: The Agricultural Extension Centre in Brandon? MR. DOWNEY: The Ag. Centre, Mr. Chairman, the total staffing , when you look at the Food Services and the Residence Service, a total of 11.26 staff man years and approximately $275,000 , in the operation of the Agricultural Centre . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the three grants that the Minister had indicated, $15,000 for the Farm Vacation, how does that compare to last year? MR. DOWNEY: That's an increase of $1,000 , Mr. Chairman . MR.

URUSKI: Could the Minister explain the Community Studies? What does he mean by Community Studies? MR. DOWNEY: That, Mr. Chairman, is a research program that's in combination with the Brandon University on historical projects and updating of information in agricultural regions and community internal problems within the agricultural regions of the province. It's a resource centre for interested groups or people to update information on historical pasts, and that type of thing. MR. URUSKI: How many staff in this, Mr. Chairman? MR. DOWNEY: In the grants, Mr. Chairman , there aren't any. MR.

URUSKI: Is this a direct grant to the Brandon University , then? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, it's to the Resource Centre, which I don't know what the connection directly is with the .. . It's housed at the University but independent of the operations of the Brandon University. MR. URUSKI: Who operates that Resource Centre? MR. DOWNEY: I have a lady by the name of Mrs . Fulton . She is the Chairman of the Board, a fine lady from out in the Birtle district. We have the Vice-Chairman, Mr. Barry Hood, from the Carberry area and some fine outstanding citizens from the rural community. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , I'm not doubting the sincerity of the members of the community who are on the board , but is there other funding that this group receives from government or from any other department in addition to the Department of Agriculture? MR. DOWNEY: Not to my knowoedge , Mr. Chairman. I believe that this is the only grant that they 2571

Monday, April 16, 1979 receive from the government. MR. URUSKI: Is it possible that they receive funding from the Universities Grants Commission, through the Brandon University? MR. DOWNEY: The only input that comes from the university my understanding is that they provide secretar ial support to it and housing for the operations of it. MR. URUSKI: Is there a time limit on this program, Mr. Chairman? MR. DOWNEY: Not to my know ledge, Mr. Chairman. I would think that they have to justify each year the work that they are doing to have continuing funding . MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , is there a time limit in terms of the length of time that they are - I gather the Minister indicated they were studying problems and areas in agriculture and in rural life - is there a time limit to the completion of their works, that the department has? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman , I would like to think that there was an end to all the problems in rural Manitoba and possibly they will be able to see a light at the end of the tunnel , but it would be a little early to assume that particular -(Interjection)- No, in seriousness , I would think that they are an ongoing committee that have some meaningful objectives and the money that is given to them is being used in a useful manner. MR. URUSKI: The outcomes of their studies are to be published , or is it being published? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: It is available through the Department of Agriculture? MR.

DOWNEY: The most direct route would be through the Resource Centre itself out at the Brandon University. MR. CHAIRMAN: (fX1)-pass - the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, is this the second year for grants to the Farm Vacations Association? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, as I have indicated there was a grant last year of $14,000 and $15,000 this year . MR. USKIW: This grant is an increase, or had there been ... ? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman, I understand there has been a gradual increase. The first grant , I am informed , was $12,500.00 . MR.

USKIW: Who is in charge , or how is the department monitoring the value of the program to determine whether or not grants should continue? MR. DOWNEY: As far as the numbers of people using the farm vacat ion service , the importance of it to Manitoba , as far as I am concerned, is totally displayed by the popularity , the reports that 1 hear , reporting to the director, and of course general public acceptan ce.

I think it is a real good program . 1 think it allows urban children the opportunity to become a part of agricultural communities , to enjoy a different way of life that they are not used to, and it is exposure for the individuals who live in cities to participate in farm life activity . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I would hope the Minister takes seriously the points that I want to make because , as I understand it, there have been some problems . There was a very bad situation occurred in one instance, which I am sure staff is aware of.

The other is, does the Minister have a mechanism through which he can make certain that no one individual doesn 't overly commercialize this whole program, which really would mean that the department is involved in a subsidy to someone who is making all kinds of money out of it , which I don 't think was the original intent. You know , there is a limit to which I would want to see this commercialized . 2572

; Monday, April 16, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I would think that would be one of the cautions that we would have to certainly be aware of, but I do know that they are very much self-policing as far as the Farm Vacations Association is concerned. There has been a gradual increase in the past few years of the numbers of individuals using farm vacations . They have been unable to keep up to the requests for school tours throughout the province ; the demand far exceeds the capacity to be able to handle them .

I know the majority of the individuals involved - or have had a recent opportunity to discuss with them some of their problems - I would think that being the self-policing type organization that they are, their objectives are, I do not believe to over-commercialize, and if that were the case I would think it would be pretty much monitored from within their own group and I know that the individual who is involved with the department and in contact with them, would be reporting of such situations that might be developing. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I would want to encourage the Minister to take a very conservative approach to this program because it seems to me that if members of this association - as I understand it, they have to pay a membership fee to belong to it and so on and then of course their particular farms are advertised and people are invited to take vacations on those farms for a certain fee per day or month or week or whatever - if it becomes evident to the department that the members of the association are indeed making this program as sort of another income or a source of revenue to the farm, then one has to raise the question of whether there is a need for public subsidization.

You know, I can understand innovation grants and so on to get something started, but you know if a given farm is netting $1,000 or something like that out of this kind of a program, then it seems to me their membership fee should be high enough to cover the service that they are getting from being members of this association and should not really have to draw on the public purse to keep it going. So that's the kind of caution I would want to urge on the government, that we don't want to provide grants where they are unnecessary .

If it is necessary, that's fine, because it is relatively new, but if it is getting to the stage where there is reasonable profiteering on the part of the members of this association, then you know in a period of restraint in particular, it is a time that you would want to pull back provincial funds . Can the Minister tell me what the average profit was of the members of this association last year? MR. DOWNEY: No, I cannot, Mr. Chairman. MR. USKIW: Can the Minister tell me whether there was any profit to the members of this association? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman. MR.

USKIW: Can he agree to find out and to tell this committee at the appropriate time, or to the House - give us the answers to those questions? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to go back and say that I think it was 1972, when he was a member of the government, set up a grant to the Farm Vacation Centre. At that particular time, it was something like $12,500 .00. It is now sitting at $15,000; there has been an increase in need for the use of the farm vacation homes.

I do not see where there is anybody making a large amount of profit out of really what has been initiated and I'll go back and say it was a good program and I think that they were wise in putting money into that particular association. As far as the operation of the farm vacation centres, or farm vacation farms, I do not believe it is the total objective of those individuals to make a great amount of money out of individuals who are unable to share in farm life.

It is more of a filling of need or that kind of -(lnterjection) Well, yes, he refers, some do, and I would think that there are some commercial operations . But I think the general thrust of the farm vacation homes are more to expose city children to farm life and there always will be one or two people who will try and take advantage of a system. I am a firm believer that the individuals who are in control and operating the Farm Vacation Program will not allow that to happen .

I can assure you that I would not like to see that happen, that provincial money should be used to support the general thrust of non - well , not totally non-profit - but service to the city children . If I can just elaborate a little more, I would think that the total amount of money that is used 2573

Monday, April 16, 1979 to advertise or support their - I think there's 45 or 50 farm vacation members at this particular time - and if at a point they felt they were unable or not in need of the provincial grant, I would think, as any responsible government , we would consider discussing the grant. I know the member knows what it is like when you talk about removing anybody 's grant ; we do not intend to remove it at this time but if it appeared somebody was taking advantage of it, then we would certainly act responsibly. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman , those are very flowery statements that the Minister has injected into this debate, but I can assure him from my experience , that once you start someone off with a grant or assistance , that even if they are in a healthy financial position , they tend to become addicted to grants and assistance if it is available free of charge , as long as someone else pays the bill. That's human nature .

I know that virtually every branch of the Minister' s department would like to grow , even if it is only for the sake of growing to have a bigger empire, and so the Minister 's role is to make sure that that doesn 't happen beyond reason . So, Mr. Chairman , human nature being what it is, I would hope that there is a monitor and that when this program reaches a stage where it can be self-funded, then that is the time that the province should say, you are now on your feet and you should be able to carry on.

If the association means anything to those peop le, that membership in the association means something, surely they will determine for themselves the value of that membership and whether they can carry on or not. There has to come a time when you have to make these evaluations and it's either a good thing or it isn't. It is either worth subsidizing or it isn't, or it is self-sustaining or it isn't , and at some stage that evaluation should be done . MR. CHAIRMAN: (fX1) - the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , could the Minister tell us something about the Portage Action Prog ram that he referred to. Is that a new program? Could the Minister tell us what that is all about? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , that is a support to the vegetable growers and the vegetable workers to co-ordinate their efforts in the development of a work force to support the vegetable growers in the Portage region . There has been the same staff involved in that program this year as there was last year. There have been good results as far as the growers are concerned.

We're carrying on with the program to help support that particular industry , not only support the industry but to work with the Portage workers to better equip themselves to fulfill the needs within the agricultural community . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman . Could the Minister tell me whether or not there has been an agreement struck with respect to Mexican labour brought into this area? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , he refers to an agreement. An agreeme nt with whom would he be referring to? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , the Minister knows there is an Association of Workers there and there is an Association of Employers , and that Mexican labour has been one of the sore points between the two. And I would like to know whether that has been sorted out and whether there has been some agreement entered into between the two groups re the question of outside labour . MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman , the member refers to a problem which ... or it apparently had been a problem some two years ago .

Last year we were able to, the department and the Vegetable Growers were able to work with the local people and were allowed to bring in some 19 out-of-the-province employees from Mexico . It appeared that there was a fairly good working relationship between the individua ls. I go back again and state my posit ion that first of all we want to see Canadians employed and Manitobans employed . That is the most desirable position to be in.

But in certain cases we were unable to have a total labour force used from within , that they weren't able to totally fulfill the needs of the industry, and through discussions with the workers and - the growers, there were 19 people, that 's correct and discussions with Canada Manpower. There were 19 individuals last year. We are in a discussion process now and I believe there will be something like 18 available to the vegetable growers this year .

I think it's important that the individuals who have had long-term experience, such as the Mexican workers, to come in and complement the work force that we have , supports the workers and it 2574

Monday, April 16, 1979 supports the growers. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister would want to read his own statements and perhaps examine his philosophy on that. He thinks it's relatively reasonable to bring in labour from outside of the country to supplement the local labour force, and really, you know, I wish he would have said it the other way, that it's important to develop our own labour force and that we shouldn't go outside of our own province, our own country, unless there was absolutely no other choice available to us.

If he had used that kind of verbiage I would have said, well, yes, that's quite right; that's the way it should be, but he introduced his comments by suggesting that it's very reasonable to bring in outside labour to supplement local labour. Well, that is only reasonable under certain circumstances, and I'm not sure that the circumstances at Portage are such that it makes it reasonable. Maybe they are. That's why I raised the question, is there an agreement between the Association of Workers and the Association of Producers .

And additional to that, what is the department doing, either themselves or with provincial Manpower Training Programs or with federal Manpower Training Programs, to try to gradually eliminate the need, if there a need for outside workers, through some sort of a training program? You know, are we involved on all fronts to deal with this issue or are we ignoring the fact that there are tens of thousands of people that could be employed in these industries, in these Darticular specialized agricultural production units, but it requires some training input or whatever, to make that happen .

And I know it's a tough process, Mr. Chairman. I'm not trying to suggest to the Minister that that can be done overnight. It's just that I would hope that we are on the right direction and that programs are in effect that would gradually eliminate the need, if there is a need - I'm not sure that there is - for out-of-province and out-of-country labour, especially when unemployment rates are high . And I know the Minister can rationalize that by telling me that, well, yes, but it's not the traditional type of work that those that are unemployed would care to attach themselves to, and that's very common.

But my real point has to do with whether we are gearing up, through training or other methods, to become self-sufficient with this kind of labour. And if he is saying we are, then for the moment I will have to accept that, in their discretion, I suppose those odd "numbers of out-of-the-province labour people have to be acceptable to us, but not in isolation and not without the other approach to the problem , Mr. Chairman. If it's a dual approach, fine; if it's a cop-out approach , well, we're not prepared to spend dollars to train local people. Then, Mr. Chairman, it is not acceptable. MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman , the member, I hope, didn't try and turn what I said around . 1 believe I indicated to the Committee that there was, through an agreement , discussion with the workers and the growers, and the Department of Manpower. There were discussions with these individual groups to agree on X-number of people to come in to complement - I didn't say to take away the jobs; I said to complement - the workers that are here in the province.

And in addition to that , I can enlighten the member that in fact we had three courses this winter to work with the workers to help upgrade their ability so that they could provide the proper labour force, the proper technical input that is required or requested or needed by the growers to supply their needs . We are, in fact , work ing with the growers to educate them and help them be prepared to supply the needs of the growers. Plus the fact that we put a course on to work with the growers on how to work with some of the labour people that they're expected to work with .

So we have been working, as far as the department are concerned, with the development of our local labour supply. We have been in discusion with those labour people, those technical people that work in the vegetable fields, our local people, and with the growers, and with Canada Manpower an agreement to allow 18 Mexican people in.

Hopefully, we would be able to, at some point in time, be able to not require any out-of-province workers, that we are able to supply the labour force, the technical input that is required in vegetable production, handling and processing, that that whole industry can be supported by Manitobans and Canadians. That is the objective.

But to totally paralyse or to cripple the industry because of a critical labour shortage in one specific area would be unfair to both the workers and to the growers, because in fact it is a developing industry in the province, as all members are well aware, and it takes a bit of time to develop our people, and we are doing that in co-operation with the Canada Manpower, through the allowing of Mexicans in to work with our people . I think it' s a good program ; we are working with training programs and hopefully we will be able to supply the total labour requirements with Manitoban people . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. The Minister indicated that there are three courses offered 2575

Monday, April 16, 1979 this winter . How many people are being trained for this coming year, in terms of supplying the needs of growers? MR. DOWNEY : Mr. Chairman , there is indication that there were approximately 60 workers involved in those courses. MR. URUSKI: Could the Minister indicate as to how many workers are there in the pool now to supply the producers? What are the numbers that are part of the Labour Pool , as I understand has been mounted by , whether it 's the Indian Brotherhood or the local group in the Portage area? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , the member asks a very difficult question, how can we separate or single out certain people who want to become involved in the vegetable industry? I don 't think we should try and classify people . Say that you are qualified only to work in the vegetable field s, if that 's what he is referring to. I can't, because I think it's an industry , that it should be available ~ to all Manitobans to become a part of the production and processing of vegetables. So, to answer the total question , I think it would be totally unfair. I think it's a growing industry.

I think that there are job opportunities all the way through it. If he is referring to a special segment of it or individuals that we have been dealing with, I guess we could say there might be approximately 200 people that are in the immediate area that could be, the Labour Pool which he is referring to . But I want to go back and again say I think that there are job opportunites for all Manitobans in the production of vegetables, and to try and classify and identify individuals who should or should not be in that is totally unfair to the work force in Manitoba . MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I don 't know whether the Minister is trying to play games with me. The Min ister well knows of the situation in Portage that developed between the workers and the growers and the attempt of workers to organize and to set up a bargaining unit and a work force to supply the growers in Portage. The Minister well well knows that the amount of off-shore labour can only be brought into this province with the concurrence of the provincia l government. The federal government will not bring in off-shore labour . So that there must have been an agreement between the province to allow the number of workers .

Now , we know that there is an organization that represents the Portage workers. They must have a number of people who are willing to and able to, according to them , to work in the industry . The farmers, if there is a co-ordination going on between the prov incial department and the Department of Manpower, must have figures available to it as to the number of employees that the industry requ ires, in terms of their employment. The Training Prog ram is involved . What kind of numbers are we taking about, Mr. Chairman?

I don 't want the Minister to give me this song and dance that there is a job for everybody in the agricultura l i ndustry . We know we're talking about one specific problem that has surfaced over the last couple of years . MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , I guess, to be more specific , if the membe r is referring to the numbers of Native Canadians that are in that area that have an interest in the vegetable growing industry , that in fact there are some 150 to 200 that are identified as individuals who are desirous of becoming employed in that particular industry and are identifiable as a source of labour for the industry . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, does the Minister and the government recognize this group of workers as a bargaining woup of employees , in terms of a group whose labours can be pooled for the agricultural industry?

Does your department recognize them , or do they not? MR. DOWNEY : Mr. Chairman , that particular group that he is referring to, they have the Workers Association and they are the work force that have been involved in the production of vegetables in the Portage area, and I'm sure , I've said it twice if not three times tonight that they have been involved . The Workers Association in Portage have been involved ; the growers have been involved and Canada Manpower have been involved in the discussions of bringing in out-of-the-country workers to assist in the production of vegetables . MR.

URUSKI: Could the Minister indicate of these 150 to 200 workers the 60 that have come off course , are the 60 part of that 200 people that are in that pool? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . 2576

Monday, April 16, 1979 . .._ MR. URUSKI: How many would the department indicate are to be - if the entire 200 amount is to be retrained, and I am making that assumption - how many of them are now presently upgraded sufficiently in terms of being able to be part of the labour pool, if they so desire? .. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I think as the member is well aware, that there are certain and varied jobs in the particular production of vegetables as there are in the production of any agricultural - and there are individuals who have certain levels of training and involvement ·in that production.

To be nailed down to numbers, specific figures, I think he is asking pretty near an impossi ble question. -(Interjection)- Well, I guess we have 60 people. Well, Mr. Chairman, if we can use a figure of 60 who have come off a training course this year, they are all available for the work force. I'm sure that we could use an estimated figure of that many people who have been involved at the practical level, working in the farm fields with the producers who have been working with them to develop them, that we could be looking at 120 people who are qualified on the labour force.

That would leave potentially approximately 80 to continue on with the work training program for next year and I can assure you that it is the intent of the department to carry on with that kind of a program. I have said that earlier; I think that is the type of objective we have to carry on with, to supply the people in the production and the processing of vegetables, the people who are in the work force, an opportunity to better themselves to supply the needs right here at home and that's really what we want to do. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister indicates that that is the target and that's what I'm trying to get at, as to what he sees in terms of a timetable range and the number of employees who conceivably could be trained and of course the question is, will they remain in the work force in that area? No one knows that amount. But is there a timetable in terms of estimates within the department providing certain patterns are followed in terms of training, when the number of offshore workers will be brought down? What time frame - are we going to be seeing 19 or 18 offshore workers from now for the next 10 years?

If that is the case , then the Minister's intent goes righ t out the window. As sincere as he might sound to this committee, he really is not indicating that his program is really intended to supply and upgrade workers from the Manitoba economy. If that is what he is saying, then let him say so, but if he is intent on moving in that direction, then let him make himself clear. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, if the Member for St.

George would just stop and think for a minute, that it you are look ing at an industry such as the vegetable industry in Manitoba, the development, the potential, the type of soil that is in the area, particularly in the Portage area, the advantages that we have in Manitoba to produce vegetable crops, the desire for the individuals to participate in that kind of production , that in fact you can see a continual growth. I can see a continual growth in the need for people to work in the vegetable crop, in the row crops in particular.

So for me to sit here and say when we reach job opportunities for 200 people, that we are going to say we have accomplished what we want to accomplish . I don't know where his eyes hit the hor izon; I think they hit it about six inches in front of his feet because really we are in a province that is conducive to growth , and particularly in that kind of production. As the vegetable industry grows and expands and the processing of those goods grows and expands, we produce more jobs for people in Manitoba .

We produce not only jobs for those 200 people and opportunities, we could produce jobs for a multiple of that number of people . So, our objectives aren 't just to provide jobs for 200; we want to supply an opportunity for a multitude of people through the production of vegetables. And in the total cycle , you are increasing the total wealth of the province. Everybody is a part of making that grow .

So when he says that my objectives aren't proper or there is something wrong with them when I'm saying, look, we are going to try to reduce from 18 to 19 workers coming in from Mexico, I'm sure that with an expanding industry it would be very unfair for me to sit here tonight and say, I th ink we should just sit with 18 or 19 or go to zero because we just want our vegetable industry to grow so big, or we only want X number of acres .

What I am saying is that I think that we can develop our people who are involved in the labour force, the 200 that are in the pool , if we can use that number - maybe it can be 400 people that we provide jobs for right in that immediate area - plus an additional group of support workers from offshore or out of the province. Let us not put those kind of limitations on what we are able to do. If that is the kind of agr iculture policy that he can foresee, then I can assure him that he is totally out of step with really what is happening in Manitoba agriculture .

The basic industry can provide a multitude of jobs for people . Our people involved in the area 2577

Monday, April 16, 1979 of extension, in working with people , we want to develop people who can work in that industry . The 200 that are there is the first objective. To support them with some offshore workers is also an objective . If the size of the industry drops, then we have qualified staff and people, and we don't need offshore people. But I can assure him that if we have the labour support , the people in this processing and the production, that we will see growing and we won't have to stop at 200 jobs, we will see a total expansion and a multitude of job opportunities. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , now we have really got the Minister telling us that he has no intent on reducing the offshore support in the agricultural industry . Mr. Chairman , the Minister told us that his training program is going to train 60 people, which is three times the annual amount of offshore workers, annually . MR. DOWNEY: We trained 60 this year, Mr. Chairman, and we are carrying on with the program . For further information, we are carrying on with the program . If there are 60 who want to take it next year , we'll train 60. If there are 60 the following year , we will train 60.

Those people have to be desirous of taking the training. MR. URUSKI: That's really the point I am getting at, Mr. Chairman . There comes a time when the department can see within the industry that there will be a close matching of numbers of trained personnel in the industry versus tbe number of workers who are requested by employers within the industry in terms of training . At that point in time , the Minister says we will still be bringing in offshore workers to complement them. Mr. Chairman , that's what I heard from the Minister.

If that's not the case, let him tell me that as we see the numbers of tra ined personnel within our province increasing to the point where we will be matching numbers of people within the industry with the numbers of jobs available, that the numbers of offshore workers will be reduced correspondingly and that there will be a point ... At the rate we are going now, the Minister can't tell me that the 18 workers are handling the jobs of 200 or 120 who are now trained in the industry . Surely there must be a desire in terms of training our own people to be self-sufficient within the industry?

Also , of course , there has to be a desire on the farmers in the area to be able to accept the people who are in the training program and move in that direction . Is that the way the department is moving? MR. DOWNEY: I thought I had made it fairly clear, Mr. Chairman , that that is quite true, that if the total needs of the labour force are obtainable within the province , of trained people, then there is no requirement for offshore workers and that , of course, is the number one objective. But let us not stop there , Mr.

Chairman , and say if the vegetable industry is growing and can expand , let us not restrict that growth and expansion because of an unavailability of labour supply because if we are in the same position at this particular time, or will be at that particular time , as we are now, we possibly would need some additional offshore workers to assist in the development of more people to develop themselves to be available to the production of vegetables. So I think that should be fairly clear to the member. I don 't know how much more clear I can make it. MR.

URUSKI: I want to ask the Minister, how will the importing of offshore labour increase the amount of labour for the vegetable industry in this province? How will the importation of offshore labour increase the development of labour in the vegetable industry in this province? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman , I think it would be very obvious that the individuals who are producing vegetables at this particular time , or any agr icultural crops that are labour intensive, will continue to expand and diversify into different types of crops that they are growing.

For example , I can use any crop , but certain onion crops or certain carrots or root crops that are highly labour intensive, probably there will be new producers that will enter into the production of those particular crops that will expand the need for more employees . The agricultural community , as much as the Member for St . George I guess can't get in his mind that it is an expanding industry and diversifying , and particularly in that area .

So what I am saying is, the more availability of qualified people to those people who are experienced in the production of some of these diffe rent crops , and they probably could be from Mexico , that in fact those individuals will work with the people of Manitoba , to work with them to help them develop in working with those kinds of crops.

That's the type of thing that I can see taking place and as our labour force is trained in that area, through the Extension Serv ice of the Department of Agriculture , through working with the farmers and in discussion with Manpower and with the labour and with the growers, that we keep the numbers of offshore workers to a limit that is not taking away the jobs of Canadians , but as I said earlier , complementing those people who are working 2578

., • .. .. ... ... - Monday, April 16, 1979 in that type of production . So I don 't know how the member can say or ever think that it doesn 't add more jobs to the total job opportunities . It in fact expands it at a lot faster rate than us not allowing people in to assist and help our people in their techniques of production and handling of those kinds of crops . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister tell me how many job opportunities are open now or are estimated to be required? How many personnel will be required for this coming season in the vegetable industry in the Portage area? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , the full-time jobs that are being indicated to the department now out of the vegetable industry , we are look ing at a total of approximately 60 permanent jobs and some 90 casual jobs throughout the production season , and that is just in that particular Portage project that we have been discussing. So I think that when we are discussing the 60 that have been trained this winter , some other 60 that I may have indicated could be trained, so we are looking at 120, we are looking at 150 jobs available to those 120 people , both casual and full-time jobs .

Now , some of those people probably don 't want - I can 't determine whether they want a full-time job or whether they don't want a full-t ime job - but there is a surplus of work is what I am saying and I think with the involvement of some offshore workers to allow the producers to produce some other crops that they haven 't been growing, that they were in fact able to encourage more of these workers to become more qualified in a broader range of production. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . The minister indicated that the potential in the Portage area is for 60 full-time and 90 casual workers.

Are any of those full-time positions now filled, or is that in addition to what is being filled now? Are those 60 the figures of jobs or approximate figures? Are any of those 60 filled at this presen t time, or are they still open? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, some of them , Mr. Chair man. The jobs are there if there are peop le there to fill them . I don't know what the complement is in relationship to the jobs that are available . I couldn 't say that the re are 60 jobs and there are 60 people in them . What I have indicated to the committee , that we've had indicat ion that there are 60 full-time jobs available . MR.

URUSKI : So the min ister has indicated that with the 60 full-time and the 90 casual that will be com ing up as seasona l employme nt as the crops come in, there's approximately 150 job vacancies in the area . Of that 150, the re are presently about 120 workers that have been ... some have been trained and some in various stages, and I presume that there will be another group in through a continued training program this coming year , if I understand the minister. How many will be put into a train ing prog ram this summer , or how does the training program work?

Specifically, what type of a program is involved in terms of the working crew? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman , it's been indicated to me and it's the way the programs work, that there are off-season courses that are perfo rmed in the wintertime . Some of them would be ind ividuals who would be coming back for a second time; it wouldn 't be that each program is the same , that it would involve production techniques or handling techniques of a different variety of a crop . So we're not talk ing new individuals in certain cases.

The member grabbed onto a figure of an estimate that I put forward of 60 people that were trained, and 60 people that may have been train ed thro ugh field expe rience . He asked me for a ball park figure , and I gave him one , and , you know , I think we're dealing with numbers here that could mean . .. I th ink we're fairly close, but I think we've got to be well aware of the fact that the training is in the wintertime, and off-season , and that some of those individuals can participate in more than one course . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Membe r for Portage . MR. LLOYD G.

HYDE: I appreciate the opportunity of speaking at this time and about this program . First of all, I want to stress that the need is defin itely there for a supplement work force to make certain that the expensive crops that are being grown in the Portage area is going to be cared for at the peak times . Mr.

Chairman, I have sat in on some of these programs that are being supplied in Portage for our local people, and I can assure you that I can see progress being made by these programs, but let's not get carried away with the idea that the minister has already stated where some 60 staff attended these programs , but when there are 60 of local people attending the programs laid 2579

Monday, April 16, 1979 down, it's certainly not a case where there's going to be 60 qualified individuals come out of that course. There's a percentage of them that, through the lack of interest, through the lack of ability to fill the need, is just not going to pass that course. The offshore workers, I maintain, there's going to be need for them to supplement the local workers regardless of the numbers at this time.

The fact that these crops that we are growing in Portage Ia Prairie requires this special care at the feed dollars, there's not much more that I can say any more than let's not lose sight of the need for the offshore workers to supplement the local labour force around Portage Ia Prairie . MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the Member for Portage finished? MR. HYDE: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, could the minister tell me .. . the minister has made similar comments to the Member for Portage and that's the direction that he is taking, that there will always be a need for offshore labour in the Portage area . I want to know whether the minister subscribes to that kind of thinking because we're almost at the point of having a trained work force with an employee representative group that is prepared to supply the labour needed .

What as well is required is a willingness on behalf of both sides, the producers as well as the workers to be able to accept their style of employment and their working habits and their backgrounds, to be able to work them into their system. Now, unless there is a determination on behalf of

a) the government to train those numbers of people,

b) the government's attitude and stance portrayed to the farmers, that they will ultimately phase out the offshore labour, that there will always be per annually a request for offshore workers because they will claim that the offshore workers will certainly out-produce and out-perform the local help, no matter what, and that there will always be a need .

And this will be the continuous battle between some of the farmers, who I believe may not be prepared to work with local people , who will only rely and want to rely on offshore help, and if that is the case I want to know that it is the government policy that they will continue to provide offshore labour irrespective of the number of trained workers that they can mobilize in the Portage area through their own employee group. If that is the case, let the minister say so because it 's certainly evident by the comments of the Member for Portage , the way he puts it, that there will always be a need.

I want to know that the minister is saying, that even if we have a trained work force that will be trained, even at say, 300 employees, and now there 's jobs for 150, that there will be phased over a period of time 300 people that have worked within the industry and have some background . We know that there is a transition because of changing jobs and better working conditions in other areas so the work force as mobile as it is, will keep mov ing on. And it will be even worse, Mr.

Chairman, if the government continues its present policy and is not prepared to say that, yes, once we hit the point of time when we have a work force that is very close to the requirements , that we will phase out the offsho re labour so that there will be increased opportunities through the local labour force .

If the local workers see that there is really no intention of reducing the number of offshore workers , and then they will say, well, all we are there is to . . . you can take us whenever you need us for the casual help , whenever you need us to do certain jobs we are there because we can't move out , but you will take the offshore labour for the full-time market and you will keep us all summer - when the season is through you will send us back . Thereby, we will have a large pool of casual labour to pick from us whenever you can, and when thElre's a full market , you will bring those in from Mexico .

If the minister is shaking his head in the negative , let him tell me that that 's not the case because that 's really what his training program is meant to be. It is really meant to produce the full -time help from elsewhere , and that the local labour force shall be, even if it's 500, but we will only use them for casual help . We will only train them to the point where they will not be put into the permanent full-time jobs within the industry . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. DOWNEY: Well, 1 just have a brief comment to make . I've explained the position that we're in.

He's referring to us just using the local Manitobans as casual labour . He knows very well that the casual labour are the Mexicans , that in fact the full-time jobs are available to Manitobans . So I don 't know why he's trying to put on the record that we are going to just use Manitobans as casual labour , that it's in fact the reverse - Manitobans have the full-time jobs, the temporary 2580

f .- • ; .. Monday, April 16, 1979 employment is from offshore workers, or it is provided by offshore workers. We have reduced or . . . we haven 't reduced - the workers and the growers in discussion with Canada Manpower, have reduced this year from 19 last year to 18 this year . There is an indication that this year there are probably less people required . Now again I go back to what the Honourable Member for St.

George appears to not understand - is that he would restrict the growth of job opportunities for Manitobans because of making unavailable to the industry , to give them the opportunity to produce a wider range of goods in the vegetable production or in agriculture . He would restrict job opportunity development for Manitobans because of his philosophy in not allowing offshore workers to come in and help develop that industry. That's what he's saying, Mr. Chairman, and if that's what he's saying, let him say it in as many terms. I'm very disappointed in the Member for St.

George because he gets totally . . . under under a policy that he would be a part of, would in fact see the vegetable industry back-up because the starvation of the labour supply to it, and in fact at the same time, not only keep the vegetable industry from growing because of the shortage of labour , he would in fact, deprive Man itobans of job opportunities which could be developed through the involvement of more and a wider variety ofoccasional part-time help that could come in from Mexico. So, let's put it on the record . If that's what he is saying, let's say it that way, and that's what he is saying.

He, in fact, does not want to develop job opportunities and create jobs for Manitobans. MR. URUSKI: I appreciate the minister's attitude, Mr. Chairman, because that attitude shows us that the Minister of Agriculture is back to the 1930s or before . If the Minister of Agriculture was really intent, as he says, of improving the job opportunities for Manitobans , then he should have a training program that will tell the farmers of the Portage area that I have the trained manpower for you within the Province of Manitoba.

We have an unemployment rate in excess of 6 percent -(Interjection)- in that area the emp loyment ratio is, as the Member for Ste. Rose indicates, probably in the 50-60 percent range , and maybe in some areas even higher than that - that they have been for years on the welfare syndrome, and in the last number of years they have banded together and formed an employee group and were prepared, at least to attempt, they were prepared to supply all the labour that the farmers required. But, Mr. Chairman , let's recognize it for what it is. There is an attitude problem.

The farmers, not all of them, of course not all of them, there is an attitude problem towards native help in that area . And there is a resistance towards that native help and loca l help by some producers in that area . Why, Mr. Chairman? It has been a historical thing because of the ... I think historically many farmers figured that they could come on the reserve and pick up a man and take him to do whatever they wanted him to do, the most menial labour, put him in a shack, house him • and then when they didn't need him they 'd take him back to the reserve.

That has been the .. . it's happened even in my area, Mr. Chairman, histor ically. same situation I'm sure existed in the Portage area, and as a result , the people in that area said , Look , why should I be the pool of labour and the slave to be picked up whenever someone needed me and then discarded when that job was done? So there has to be an education process conducted by the Minister, if he is really intent on doing on his job.

If he is really intent on indicating that we want to become self-sufficient and have the number of workers in our industry, he would say we will not import any labour and our commitment will be to train people in this province , to have that labour pool right within this province. If he is interested in that , then produce the training and have those jobs done, not continue to support the off-shore labour. Because if he is indicating that there will always be a need, then why bother with the Manitoba work force at all? Bring in all off-shore labour .

Surely he is not telling me that that's all the off-shore labour that is wiling willing to come into this province . Surely he is not telling us that . Surely the farmers of the Portage area would love to have 100 workers in the industry and they would be able to expand even more. If that's not the case, then let him tell me so. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. LLOYD D. HYDE: Mr.

Chairman , I want to make it clear tonight here right now that 1 am .,. not against the local labourers, not a bit ; I am not, and I will accept to say this right now that the program that we've ongoing for the last couple of years is gaining, and we are certainly improving our local labour force by the program that has been in force, but, let us not . . . I want to suggest to the Member for St.

George if he was farming in the Portage Plains with millions of dollars worth of crop lying on the field and we couldn't just locate these local labourers when we need them and the Mexican boys are there ready to go to work, would he not be one to go out and promote 2581

Monday, April 1&; 1979 this program? MR. CHAIRMAN: I would just advise the Committee , if you don't hold your hand up I don't know who is wanting the mike, so I'm just looking at the House . Whoever has got his hand up get's recognized. I will try and go back and forth. The Member for Pembina . MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A couple of questions for the Minister .

On the Training Program , where there is approximately 60 people being trained this year , is there a follow-up by the department to determine how successful the Training Program has been in terms of how many of the 60 have remained employed or stay at the job? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman , there is a follow-up analysis of the success of the programs , to see if in fact the program met the needs of the workers and the employers . MR. ORCHARD: Has there been a follow-up, say, on the program a year and a half ago to see how successful it was, whether there needs to be any changes? MR.

DOWNEY: There was not a formal assessment but a continual mon itoring of the advancement of the workers and the situation . So not a detailed report but a monitoring of what is taking place . MR. ORCHARD: By all appearances, would you give this Training Program marks of seven out of ten for success? Like is it providing the type of labour that they need and want? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, this whole area of off-shore workers is quite , I suppose , a touchy and a delicate area , you know , where all of us, as consumers , are caught on the horns of a dilemma , add I'm sure that dilemma has to affect every one of us. The Member for St. George made a statement that the growers are very much interested in off-shore workers because normally they will out-perform Manitobans and, you know , I have no particular arguments pro or con to that particular si.atement.

But, you know , I think the objective of the vegetable industry in Manitoba , and then we I think we have to give it good marks for what it has done to date - it's a growing industry - but it is a very , very economic-oriented industry ; you have to produce at a cost that the consumer can afford to pay and to compete with imported commodities, etc ., etc ., and that leaves the grower with investment of many hundreds of dollars per acre on crops, caught in the situation where he has to get that crop from the field and to the market. And 1 know that members opposite are very conscious about the food prices .

We have had a number of speeches in the House to that regard , where the price of food is going up too fast for the lower income and fixed income people . -(Interjection)- Well, you know the members say that incomes aren't going up fast enough to cover the cost of food . Well , income , if you take a look at the cost of food , it's primarily labour costs that compose the major port ion of food prices .

So I'm sure that the members opposite must, in their efforts to assure that Manitoba labour is used entirely in the vegetable industry , have to view that very carefully because the first reaction that is going to happen if we used entirely Manitoba labour , number one, I think we'd find a labour shortage . I don 't think there is enough . And, Mr.

Chairman, I think that happened a year ago , in the fall , not last fall but a year ago in the fall, I think there was a CBC news file footage on a fellow out their disking up a field of cabbages because . . . the availability of labour just plain wasn 't there to enable him to harvest it. Now, a situa tion like that , Mr. Chairman , does one thing . It removes foodstuffs from the market , and when you remove foodstuf fs from the market you put the price up to the consumer . And it must be quite a quandry for members opposite on one hand, with all good intention - and I will admit that , Mr.

Chairman - with all good intention , to employ str ictly Manitoba labour in the vegetable industry . But let's look at it realistically . In a growing industry , if you haven't got the labour force now that is trained to do the job, as was very evident a year and a half ago , two falls ago, that you try to solve the problem in providing a training program for Manitoba labourers but if you haven 't got enough Manitoba labourers are you going to let the crops rot in the field and the consumer pay more price? So , you know, they are caught in quite a quandry .

On one hand they want all Manitoba labour and, on the other hand , they want cheap food for the people of Manitoba . You can't solve both 2582 .. I L

Monday, April 16, 1979 those problems at once, and it is a problem and it is a dilemma. I think in a growing industry, such as we have in the vegetable industry , that if we don't have enough of the labour that is required ~ to enable our growers to recoup the tremendous investment that they put in yearly into the vegetable industry, then I think any government, whether it would be a Conservative government or an NDP ;- government, would be doing the people , the consumers of Manitoba , less than a good service if they prevented that crop from being harvested by sticking dogmatically to no imported labour .

And I think the consumer of Manitoba would have a fair bit to say about that. So . it has to be quite a quandry that everybody is caught in in this vegetable industry, and I think that these training programs , as carried out by the Department of Agriculture, will do nothing but improve the situation for, number one, the vegetable industry in Manitoba, and, number two, the growers of vegetables in Manitoba, and, number three, the workers desirous of being employed in that industry.

But let's not cut off our nose to spite our face and dogmatically insist before the industry has enough workers in Manitoba to supply the labour force that we cut off and eliminate all the off-shore labour. They still perform a very useful and very needed role in the vegetable industry. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(f)(1)-pass - the Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , the Member for Pembina pleads a case that we have heard all too often in recent years but he misses the whole point of the problem. Yes, yes, he misses the main point of our dilemma. And really it's not an ideologica l thing, Mr.

Chairman, hardly . The problem that Canadian agriculture has, Mr. Chairman , is that it doesn't have income stability comparable to that of other sectors of society . Because it doesn 't have that, it is somewhat handicapped in competing for a labour force with those other sectors . I mean mean that's part of the whole scenario , Mr. Chairman .

And so this Minister, as well as other Ministers in the country , have to address themselves to that problem, the problem of how to stabilize agricultural income on a current basis that would allow agriculture to compete for a labour force in a way that would be competitive with the industrial area. Now, that's a long way to go, Mr. Chairman , but I, quite frankly, don't blame anyone that doesn't want to work for anyone, be it farmer, entrepreneur or an industrialist, for $3 or $4 an hour; I don't blame anybody for not wanting to take that on. I mean, what's the incentive? To live in poverty forever and a day?

That's really what we're looking at, Mr. Chairman. So if you're going to solve the problems of labour for agricultural production, they go far beyond the question of importing labour or training programs . Those are merely small side issues, Mr. Chairman. The big issue is to have agriculture on a financial footing in such a way that they could afford to pay the wages that General Motors pays to their employees to build cars. Yes, when we get to that stage, Mr. Chairman , I think we wouldn 't have to worry about bringing in labourers from Mexico, when we get to that stage.

And that is the direction that all governments should be going, Mr. Chairman . We have to talk about income stability for agriculture that would enable agriculture to pay the kind of wages that should be paid for a day's work, not the kind of misery that people are subjected to at the minimum wage or slightly above . Because that's what it is, Mr. Chairman, it is absolute misery and it is slavery of the worse kind. Let's not misunderstand what it is. -(lnterjection) Oh yes. Well, Mr. Chairman, that is true; tha t is tru e. And we paid our role in that respect; that is true.

And in many instances we were successful. Unfortunately, it is a situation where you make a couple of yards of progress and maybe one yard of retreat; I agree with the Minister 's observation . It is very difficult to put these pieces together in a country that has 11 governments, you know. There is no question about that. But the fact of the matter is that, you know , I have said this before , I don't hear, at least in my neighbourhood I don't hear students saying, God, you know when we're through with our university we are going to apply for a job on the farm of the Member for Pembina.

He has got a great job opportunity for us. I don't hear that amongst the high school graduates. You know , I hear them talking about wantin g to take up trades; I hear them talking about wanting to take up profess ions, but I don 't hear the average students talking about I'd like to work for some farmer in Manitoba. And until you change that, you will have the problem that you now have. And the only way you're going to change that is if you structure the industry in such a way that it can afford to pay the kind of wages that we should be paying for the production of goods or for the delivery of services .

So, Mr. Chairman, all the talking in the world and all the training programs in the world, and all the offshore labour or whatever in the world , isn't going to get us away from that one startling reality, and that is the job that this Minister has for the next two years , Mr. Chairman. I don't give him more than two , but two I'll give him. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(f)(1)-pass ; 4.(f)(2)-pass - the Member for St . George. 2583

Monday, April 16, 1979 MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: No, (2)0ther Expenditures. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, in the two components that we have of (f)(1) and (2) we have a total of $600,000.00. We had a total of $275 ,000 approximately for the Ag Centre , and approximately $65,000 for the grants, the Farm Vacation Community Studies and the Manitoba Women's Institute , and another $65,000 , $62,000 for the 4-H , about $400,000 . Could the Minister indicate the additional $200,000 of the $600,000? MR. DOWNEY: Did you have Branch Administration? Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the Branch Administration is approximately $111,000. Leadership Training under the 4-H and Youth, we have $30,000, and Projects and Activities under the 4-H Program of $53,000 .00. MR. URUSKI: That's in addition to the $62,500 for the Youth Specialists? MR. DOWNEY: Yes. Correct, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: The Leadership Training Program, Mr. Chairman, could the Minister outline the scope of the Training Program and what it entails? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, it is supportive to the 4-H Program throughout the province, training programs for individuals who are volunteers, who work with the 4-H Program throughout the province . That is the moneys allocated for that particular program to support the general community who are working with 4-H members . MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , the program that was involved in rural leadership training where there were members of the farm community involved in studying the Parliamentary System of the Municipal Government, Provincial and Federal Government, was that under the auspices of the Department of Agriculture, or is that course ongoing? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , that was under the Department of Agricul tur e under the Community Affairs . We do not have any funds in the Budget for this year , and there was some under the FRED Agreement for that particu lar program . MR.

URUSKI: There are no funds at all in your Estimates for anything this year? MR. DOWNEY: No, there are not , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (f)(2)-pass; (f)(3)-pass - the Member for Virden. MR. McGREGOR: Yes, I would like to ask, Mr. Chairman , the Minister how many A, B, and C acti ve societi es are there in the province? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, we have two A societies , six Class B societies , and 54 Class C societies. MR. McGREGOR: Mr. Chairman, have any C Associations discontinued to operate in the last year or is that 54 . . . MR. DOWNEY: That 's the same , Mr. Chairman, as a year ago. MR.

McGREGOR: Then would the increase in expenditure here indicate that there has been some reclassification upward, and I'm thinking now possibly in the C fairs as there is 1, 2 and 3 classes under the C, for as many as there are. Are there some of them have moved upwards? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , the re have been some reclassifications . There has also been a 10 per cent increase in the prize money for the fairs . MR. McGREGOR: Then I'm taking that to be A,B and C as a general - they 've all increased 10 percent. 2584 •

; Monday, April 16, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George . The Member for Pembina. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I was just wondering if under the Agricultural Societies' Budget for this year there might be any funds specifically earmarked as an additional grant or additional funding to any of the Agricultural Societies who are celebrating, say, a hundredth year of continuous fair, etc ., etc. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, in that regard we are look ing at some special recognition -(Interjection)- Well, the Member for Lac du Bonnet recommends buffalo pins.

I'm sure that that would be more than what he would have given them . He'd have probably provided buffalo chips but anyway, the Member for Pembina indicated - but I would support the Member for Pembina. But to get back to it, Mr.

Chairman, as far as any additional financial funds from the department, no, there aren't, but we are in fact working on forming some special recognition and I am aware of the fact that Carman, which is in your constituency, the Member for Pembina, that we are working on some special recognition for towns that have accomplished that goal of having a 100 years of Agricultural Societies , their tribute to agriculture , the work which they've done to support the agriculture industry and give farm people and rural communities an opportunity to intermingle and have a display of their goods . So we are as a d

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-40b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 40b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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