British Columbia Hansard — Monday, May 26, 2008 (38th Parliament, 4th Session) (H0526pm-07) (H0526pm 07)

H0526pm-07

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Monday, May 26, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Volume 34, Number 7 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC FOURTH SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon.

Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ........................................................................................................ Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon.

Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon.

Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon.

George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General and Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations............... Hon. John van Dongen Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform............................................ Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of State for ActNow B.C. ............................................................................................................................................ Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Deputy Speaker ...........................................................................................................................................................................

Katherine Whittred Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole................................................................................................................................................. Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E.

George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms................................................................................................................................................................................................Vacant Director, Hansard Services ...................................................................................................................................................................Jo-Anne Kern Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) .................................................................... Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)............................................................................. Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP).................................................................. Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)..........................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) .............................................................Prince George North Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................ East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ............................................................ Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L)................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).....................................Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon.

Gordon (L) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)..............................................................Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) .................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ................................................. Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, David (NDP) ......................................... Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon.

Murray (L) .....................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...........................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .......................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) ....................................................................... North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)............................................................Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ...................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) .........................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP).................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...............................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ..............................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ..............................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP).......................................................................Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................ Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ................................................... Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) ..................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L).......................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) ............................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................ Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon.

Gordon (L).....................................................Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)......................................................Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)........................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)...............................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP).......................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)..................................................

North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................... Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)......................................................................... Nanaimo Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L) .....................................Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)........................................................................

Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L)....................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L).............................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L)........................................................................ Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP).................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L).......................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L).................................................West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .................................................. Peace River North Nuraney, John (L).............................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon. Wally, QC (L).......................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...........................................................

Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ....................................................................................Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)...................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ............................................................. Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................ Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L).............................................................

Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) ................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L).......................................................................Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP)..................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ........................................................

Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP).........................................Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP)..................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ....................................................Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) ....................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon.

Carole (L).....................................................Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) .................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L).......................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) ..................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)............................................ Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L)........................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) .................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)...................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman .......................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum..........................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ...........................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North ...........................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds........................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon................................................................... John Nuraney Burquitlam.......................................................................................Harry Bloy Cariboo North..............................................................................

Bob Simpson Cariboo South..............................................................................Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ..................................................................Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas............................................................................... John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley........................................................................ Hon.

Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville..............................................................Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith ................................................................. Doug Routley Delta North ...................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ............................................................................. Valerie Roddick East Kootenay................................................................................

Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin.........................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops.....................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ............................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country.................................................................. Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ......................................................................

Sindi Hawkins Langley ...........................................................................................Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca .................................................................. John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................ Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ..................................................... Michael Sather Nanaimo......................................................................................

Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville .....................................................................Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston .............................................................................Corky Evans New Westminster .................................................................. Chuck Puchmayr North Coast....................................................................................

Gary Coons North Island ...............................................................................Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale................................................Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour..........................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head ........................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon......................................................... Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside..............................................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Peace River North.......................................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South..................................................................... Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley .................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ............................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood.................................................................... Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...............................................

Nicholas Simons Prince George North.................................................................... Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson ............................................Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................ John Rustad Richmond Centre......................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East........................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston...........................................................................John Yap Saanich North and the Islands ............................................ Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South ........................................................................ David Cubberley Shuswap............................................................................Hon. George Abbott Skeena.......................................................................................... Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale............................................................... Hon.

Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers ................................................................Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton............................................................................... Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge.................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead ....................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley...........................................................................Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ............................................................Hon.

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard..............................................................Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.............................................................Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview .................................................Hon.

Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings .................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington.......................................................David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway ......................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara ........................................................... Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant........................................ Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena.........................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill...................................................................

Carole James Victoria-Hillside ...........................................................................Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary........................................................Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano...........................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ........................................................Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet..................................................................................... Harry Lali

CONTENTS Monday, May 26, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 12881 Tributes ....................................................................................................................... ............................................................ 12881 Don Lee Hon. I.

Chong Tabling Documents.............................................................................................................. .................................................. 12882 Annual Report of the British Columbia Legislative Library 2007 Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ....................................... 12882 The Campaign Finance Reform Act, 2008 (Bill M215) C.

James Statements (Standing Order 25B) .............................................................................................................................. ........... 12882 Farmers' markets on Vancouver Island M. Karagianis 50th anniversary of Dawson Creek B. Lekstrom E&N Railway D. Routley World Partnership Walk and Aga Khan Foundation J. Nuraney Bike to Work Week D. Cubberley Zajac Ranch R.

Hawes Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ....................................................... 12884 Government action on forest industry C. James Hon. R. Coleman B. Simpson Government support for forest workers R. Fleming Hon. C. Hansen Government action on forest industry D. Routley Hon. R. Coleman C. Evans Pacific salmon treaty S. Fraser Hon. B. Penner Funding for post-secondary education C. Puchmayr Hon. M.

Coell Petitions...................................................................................................................... ............................................................. 12889 D. Thorne N. Macdonald S. Fraser

Tabling Documents.............................................................................................................. .................................................. 12889 Letter from Auditor General in response to request for review regarding ICBC research and training facility Petitions...................................................................................................................... ............................................................. 12889 K. Conroy G.

Coons Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................. 12890 Social Workers Act (Bill 35) Hon. T. Christensen N. Simons Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 12893 Health Care Costs Recovery Act (Bill 22) A. Dix Hon. G.

Abbott Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ......................................... 12897 Health Care Costs Recovery Act (Bill 22) Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 12897 Public Health Act (Bill 23) A. Dix Hon. G. Abbott B. Ralston N.

Simons Reporting of Bills ............................................................................................................. ...................................................... 12905 Public Health Act (Bill 23) Third Reading of Bills......................................................................................................... ................................................... 12906 Public Health Act (Bill 23) Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 12906 Health Professions (Regulatory Reform) Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 25) A.

Dix Hon. G. Abbott Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 12912 Estimates: Office of the Premier Hon. G. Campbell C. James

12881 MONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 The House met at 1:36 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Introductions by Members Hon. T. Christensen: In April of 2007, MCFD launched a new program, the ministry student em- ployment program, as a means of trying to address perhaps some of the myths and the mystery of what goes on within the Ministry of Children and Family Development. Today we're joined by a number of stu- dents who are this year's

part icipants in that program. They're here for a program orientation. Now, some of us might question whether coming to the House and witnessing this place is a good way to start your orientation towards government. Nevertheless, I'm very happy that they are here. We're joined today by 15 students. They are Pamela Baddams, Janpreet Dhade, Gerardo Espinosa, Cynthia Field, Geoffrey Homer, Vessela Kostova, Lauren Larose, Christina McCauley, Tanner Oscapella, Stephanie Patterson, Megan Purcell, Renee Schultz, Shauna Skinner, Lydia Smith and Jordan Wapa ss.

They are joined by two folks from the Ministry of Children and Family Development strategic human resources department, Michelle Perren and Danielle Carter-Sullivan. I would ask that the House make all of them very welcome to this place and encourage them to learn a great deal from their experience with MCFD. Hopefully, we can talk them into pursuing a career in government. N. Macdonald: It's my pleasure to introduce Betty Hoogendoorn. Betty is my belle-mère, as the French say, which is a much more appropriate term for Betty. She welcomed me into her family many, many years ago.

With her are my wife Karen Macdonald and my daughter Brandy Macdonald. I would like you all to join me in making them feel welcome. R. Sultan: In the precinct today we have 27 stu- dents and eight parents and teachers led by Ms. Milva Barichello from Holy Trinity School in North Vancouver in my riding. Holy Trinity has offered the best of scho- lastic as well as spiritual education to our students in North Vancouver for well over 50 years. Led by Principal Chris Sumner, they are now com- pleting a ten-year capital campaign to build a new school.

I would remind members of the Legislature that schools such as Holy Trinity pay for these new facilities out of their own pocket and do not impose on the gen- erosity of the Ministry of Education. Would you please welcome Holy Trinity to the precinct. Hon. O. Ilich: This year as we celebrate our 150th anniversary, our B.C. govern ment agents are also cele- brating 150 years of service to the province. They have long been, in that time, the welcoming face of this province, and they share the colourful history that we have. These are some of the functions they performed.

They enforced the law; they kept the peace; they legalized mining claims; they performed marriage ceremonies; they buried the dead; they sold liquor licences; they collected taxes; they took custody of lunatics, as one old docu- ment puts it; they liaised with first nations people; they sheltered voters who had ridden vast distances to get into villages; they recorded water tables. There was indeed a very long list of th ings that they did. Today government agents are part of Service B.C., which is the provincial government's chief provider of front-line services to the public.

This year on June 19 we will be celebrating Govern- ment Agents Day in British Columbia. Joining us in the gallery are some of the Service B.C. staff from the Minis- try of Labour and Citizens' Services, who work closely with the government agents across the province. [1340] In the gallery are Lois Fraser, assistant deputy minister for Service B.C.; Bette-Jo Hughes, executive director re- sponsible for Service B.C.'s government agents; Melody Wey, communications coordinator for the government agents 150 project; and Marty Nelson, former government agent in Ashcroft, Chetwynd, Clinton and Lillooet.

Would the House please help me make them welcome. Hon. P. Bell: Joining us in the House is Tami Fur. Tami is with the integrated land management bureau in Kamloops. She's a project manager. She's working with first nations in the Okanagan, in the Kamloops- Thompson region, building new relationships and cre- ating economic opportunities for first nations through- out our region. I would ask the House to please make Tami very welcome. Tributes DON LEE Hon. I. Chong: Today I rise with some sadness. I want to inform the House of the sudden passing of Mr.

Don Lee, who passed away this weekend from pancreatic can- cer. Don Lee came to Canada from China in 1949 at the age of 13 and received his bachelor of science degree from the University of British Columbia in 1960 and then completed his teacher training in Ontario. Don taught math and physics at Templeton Secon- dary for more than 25 of his 31 years in the classroom. He was elected a Vancouver councillor in 1996, serving until 2002. Then he returned to public life in 2005 when he was elected a Vancouver school board trustee.

He has served as a director of the greater Vancouver re- gional district, and while a school board trustee, Don chaired the management coordinating committee and was trustee liaison for Churchill and Templeton Sec- ondary schools and their feeder elementary schools. He was very active in the Chinese community. He was obviously involved as a consultant, as a board member and as a director of many Chinese associations

12882 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 and groups, of which I know there are many in greater Vancouver. I also am aware that ma ny members in this House have crossed paths with Don while attending events in Vancouver, and I hope that those who knew him well will send a note of condolence to his family, in particu- lar to his wife Sally. Tabling Documents Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members, I have the honour to present the Annual Report of the British Columbia Legisla- tive Library 2007. Introduction and First Reading of Bills THE CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM ACT, 2008 C.

James presented a bill intituled The Campaign Finance Reform Act, 2008. C. James: I move that a bill intituled The Campaign Finance Reform Act, 2008, be read a first time now. Motion approved. C. James: I'm very pleased to introduce The Cam- paign Finance Reform Act, 2008. British Columbia's democratic institutions are supposed to be accountable to the people we serve, but too often ordinary citizens feel that their voices are crowded out by big money, that access to politicians and decisions comes with a price.

That has a corrosive effect on our democracy, undermining people's faith that decisions made in this chamber or at cabinet table result from no other con- sideration than the broad public interest. The Campaign Finance Reform Act seeks to ad- dress these concerns, to level the playing field and to ensure that the public interest always comes first. The principle underlying this bill is simple. If you can't vote, you can't donate. Individual citizens, not institutions, should finance B.C.'s political process.

In addition to this far-reaching reform, this bill also calls for a public review led by the Chief Electoral Officer to provide a detailed examination of the entire campaign finance system to make further recommendations on models that have been implemented in other jurisdictions. Every British Columbian should have equal access to legislators and input on the decisions that affect their lives. If passed by this House, the bill I'm introducing will put the individual at the centre of our democracy and will help to build public confidence in B.C.'s de- mocratic institutions.

With that, I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for the next sitting of the House after today. Bill M215, The Campaign Finance Reform Act, 2008, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) FARMERS' MARKETS ON VANCOUVER ISLAND M. Karagianis: Long before the hundred-mile diet became popular, the Metchosin farmers' market was bringing the best in fresh fo od and crafts to the resi- dents of the south Island. [1345] The market that runs every Sunday from May through October at the Me tchosin municipal grounds has been operating for more than 20 years. It's a deli- cious place that tempts the senses with organically grown produce, fresh farm free-run eggs, jams and preserves, flowers and pl ants, baked goods, soaps and a whole lot more.

It's a delicious place to recon- nect with your neighbours, make new friends, listen to some great local music and soak up the fresh air and sunshine. Just down the road, the Luxton Station market op- erates every Saturday at the Luxton fairgrounds in Langford. Both markets ar e run by volunteers and vendors who believe strongly in going local and doing their part to deliver healthy, nutritious fresh food. They know that the food that the average British Columbian eats travels hundreds if not thousands of kilometres to get to our plates.

They understand that more than 90 percent of the food consumed on Van- couver Island is grown off the Island. That must change. By supporting our local grow- ers and local vendors, we grow our own agrifoods industry, we enhance our f ood security, and we help reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The recently released Go Local West Shore Food Strategy states that by in- creasing local production, processing and enjoyment of great local foods, we can reduce our community's eco- logical footprint. It makes a lot of sense.

After all, as the members here know and we're oft reminded by the member for Delta South, we all have to eat to live. 50th ANNIVERSARY OF DAWSON CREEK B. Lekstrom: It is a great day and a privilege to rise today to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the city of Dawson Creek. On January 1, 1958, the city of Dawson Creek was incorporated. It is an amazing community — one that I located to in 1961, mere days after I was born. So it's a little older than I am.

I've lived there and enjoyed the lifestyle that it presents to anyone who calls it home or to a visitor — a way of life and quality of life that is second to none in this great province. We have developed a book and a CD to commemo- rate the 50th anniversary. I encourage members of this Legislature to contact me if they're interested.

MONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12883 The main kickoff to this celebration was that Daw- son Creek hosted the Northern B.C. Winter Games in 2008. The Premier was up to kick it off. It was a won- derful start to a wonderful year. We're blessed in Dawson Cr eek, and it is truly a city filled with community spirit. We have a diversified economy, with agriculture being our mainstay — but also mining, forestry, oil and gas, and tourism just to men- tion a few of the key aspects that keep our people working and our community in the type of atmosphere that it has.

We have a 12,000-person community, maybe a little greater, that is full of community pride. It is something to behold. I encourage every member of this Legislative Assembly as well as all British Columbians to visit Dawson Creek in the 50th celebration year. As well, I encourage all Canadians to come to our community to see what the northeast part of our province is like. There's no better place on earth to be than in Dawson Creek during the 50th annive rsary celebrations. Come and enjoy it. I know you'll have a great time. E&N RAILWAY D.

Routley: I would like to speak to the House today about the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway, the E&N, and about the E&N land grant that really is about the history of Vancouver Island. In fact, its present-day situation is tied up in that land grant as well. The E&N was the completion of the promise to British Columbia by Canada that we would enter Con- federation and have passenger service from coast to coast. It's that promise that has kept the E&N alive all these many years when so many different operators would in fact have preferred to see it gone.

The coal baron Dunsmuir was granted 30 percent of the Island, the east coast. Along that line he established forestry and coalmining, and that was the purpose of it. Along the line, though, there were also squatters at each station, and those became the towns of Vancouver Island. Duncan station is now Duncan. Mr. Dunsmuir went back to the government and said: "What do I do with all these people on my land?" So he was granted rights in the Peace country and was granted rights further into Crown timber elsewhere on the Island.

That complicated mix is at work today in all the first nations negotiations and in any kind of nego- tiations around our railway. [1350] The great thing, though, is that we didn't lose the track. The track is still there. It's still viable. That linear string of communities is still there waiting to be served. The E&N is a masterpiece in recycling. The bridge in Niagara Canyon over Goldstream was in fact the bridge at Cisco where the CN and the CP crossed the river in the Fraser Canyon. When the traffic became too heavy for that bridge, it was taken apart and recycled onto Vancouver Island.

The masonry that the bridge stood on is now the masonry that the current-day bridge stands on. The E&N with its many bridges was the first part of the CPR to have diesels. The testing was done there, even though they were misordered and they got the wrong models. It was the last stretch of the CPR to have scheduled steam service. It's a significant piece of Canadian and British Columbian history. Let's make a commitment to the E&N Railway. WORLD PARTNERSHIP WALK AND AGA KHAN FOUNDATION J. Nuraney: Once again, over the weekend the Aga Khan Foundation held their partnership walk in Vancouver and Victoria.

Over 5,000 people of all de- nominations took part, and the event raised over $2 million, setting a new record. The foundation was established by His Highness the Aga Khan with a view to develop and promote creative solutions to problems that impede social progress in the underdeveloped countries. In one of his speeches the Aga Khan said: "There are those who enter the world in such poverty that they are deprived of both the means and the motivation to im- prove their lot.

Unless they can be touched with the spark which ignites the spirit of individual enterprise and determination, they will only sink into apathy, deg- radation and despair. It is for us who are more fortunate to provide that spark." It is through the efforts of thousands of volunteers and donors that we will continue to strive to improve the lives of those who are socially and economically de- prived. I would like to comm end the work of the Aga Khan Foundation and the organizers and volunteers who have given us the opportunity to touch the lives of hundreds of thousands of people around the world.

BIKE TO WORK WEEK D. Cubberley: N e x t w e e k i s B i k e t o W o r k W e e k across British Columbia. It's been 14 years now since intrepid commuter cyclists decided that it would be a good idea to try promoting cycling to work. It began here in this building, actually. We had no clear idea of what we were embarking on at the time. We adopted Bike to Work Week as an off-the-shelf event week to try and focus public attention. The challenge was to make it realize its potential, and that meant getting the public truly engaged in its program.

Our credo was and remains that if we can just get people to try it, some will see how easy it is, and they'll keep on doing it. When we set out, all we really had was faith and a phrase: "Bike it; you'll like it." Around that we framed an entire engagement program. What makes it work? Primarily, sustained rein- forcement for those who are willing to try it, meaning a sense of camaraderie, a ton of fun and, above all, draws for free prizes — lots and lots and lots of free prizes. Bike to Work Week lowers the price of admission to zero, and it invites riders to join a mobile party.

It in- centivizes change by making everybody feel special. The results show in steadily rising participation. Last year in greater Victoria there were 6,210 riders on nearly 600 teams. An astoun ding 1,328 of those, over one in five, were trying it for the very first time.

12884 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 These newbies, as they're known in the Bike to Work Week lexicon, are the real reason for the event. Get them to try it, and some of them will like it — the exercise, the endorphin ru sh, the stress relief, the weight control or the simple freedom of just getting there under your own steam. Then they keep going. The result of effective promotion is behaviour change. Bike to Work Week, coupled with improving the infrastructure that supports the choice, is what's making commuter cycling Victoria's fastest-growing mode of transport.

This year many more members of this House will have the opportunity to try it for the very first time in their own hometown. I would remind all that if they do try biking it, they're bound to wind up liking it. [1355] ZAJAC RANCH R. Hawes: Saturday night a gala was held to hon- our Mel Zajac for his lifetime commitment to helping others. Hundreds turned out in their finery to support this extraordinary man and th e incredible legacy that he and the Zajac family have built. Since 1968 Mel has devoted his life to supporting seniors and children.

Mel's tribute also served as a fundraiser for the Zajac Ranch in Mission. This former provincial corrections facility was purchased by the Zajac Foundation about five years ago. Since then, in- vestment of over $9 million has transformed this site into a magical place where dreams come true for kids with debilitating illnesses. These are kids who could never enjoy a camp experience or know the joy of horseback riding, swimming or simply sitting by a campfire. Now, thanks to the vision of Mel and his family, dreams are coming true at the Zajac Ranch.

All kids are normal there because all of the campers suffer the same condition. No one stands out because of their medical requiremen ts. Those requirements are all met with a 24-hour medical facility that is staffed by volunteer doctors and nurses. This centre caters to a wide range of needs, incl uding kidney dialysis. Chil- dren attend with no charge. The final tally is not in for Saturday night's gala, but it's estimated that as much as $2 million was raised for the ranch, thanks in large part to a $900,000 donation from Dennett Bryson of the Fisher Foundation. That got the ball rolling.

This incredible g e n e r o s i t y i s a s m u c h a testament to the Zajac Ranch as it is to Mel Zajac. Everyone should experience the magic of the ranch and the infectious whirlwind of enthusiasm that is Mel Zajac. He makes me proud to be a British Columbian. We're all better because of him. Oral Questions GOVERNMENT ACTION ON FOREST INDUSTRY C. James: Last week the people of Mackenzie ral- lied to save their town, to save their jobs, to save their community, to save their way of life. Mackenzie is just one town of many communities who are on the brink of losing support because of B.C. Liberal forest policies.

The Minister of Forests was there in Mackenzie at a round table, but he didn't come out to the rally. He left that job to the Minister of Agriculture, whose comment was that this wasn't a day to lay blame. Well, my question is to th e Minister of Forests. Is that why he skipped out? Is that why he wouldn't show up — b e c a u s e h e c o u l d n ' t t a k e t h e h e a t f o r h i s government's failed policy and his lack of leadership? Hon. R. Coleman: Maybe the member should do a little bit of research and find out that a round table was scheduled long before the rally was.

The rally took place while the round table was taking place. It started at 8:30 in the morning; the round table started at nine. I hate to break the news to you, hon. Member. Quite frankly, the MLA for that area, who is well re- spected in that community and is probably the best MLA that Mackenzie has ever had… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. R. Coleman: …went to the event, by agree- ment with me, so that I could chair the meeting, and he would take care of that. In actual fact, he brought a very positive message to the community.

He had a very good response from the community, because we believe in the future of Mackenzie, and we'll work with that community for its future. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental. C. James: I can guarantee that if the minister had decided to take a coffee break at the round table, the rally would have been happy to welcome him to speak at the rally. But it's pretty clear that Mackenzie and other towns aren't a priority for this Minister of Forests. Let's take a look at what…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Just take your seat for a second. Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members. Continue. [1400] C. James: The Minister of Agriculture actually made a policy announcement at that rally. I'm not sure if the Minister of Forests heard it, but he told the people of Mackenzie that the policy now was to go to

MONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12885 Alberta. He actually offered them jobs in Fort McMurray — jobs away from their families. Nothing for Mackenzie, nothing for the town, but he did say that he would make sure they had a plane ride to other provinces. My question is to the Premier. How many other towns are going to get direct flights to Alberta because his government… Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Minister. C. James: …has failed to support forest communities? Hon. R.

Coleman: The Minister of Agriculture was telling the community about opportunities, as we go through a tough transition during the forest cycle, for people to have other opportunities. I know that the Leader of the Opposition would just have everybody stay there, be unemployed and have no hope, rather than tell them the opportunities that might be available for them.

The fact of the matter is that all the member was doing was telling the crowd and letting the people of Mackenzie know where there are opportunities for transition while we rebuild the forest sector in British Columbia to deal with the market downturn and to have a future for the community of Mackenzie. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental. C. James: If the Minister of Forests had come out to the rally, he could actually have heard firsthand what the Minister of Agriculture had to say. He actually made another announcement at that rally.

He actually said to the people of Mackenzie, "I promise you anything — anything from this cabinet, anything it can get done. I can go to cabinet, and I can get something" — a pretty bold statement from a min- ister who has done nothing except offer a plane ride to Alberta to the people of Mackenzie. My question is to the Pr emier. Given the minister's promise, when will the Premier match the federal aid package so communities like Mackenzie can actually get real support from this government? Hon. R.

Coleman: May 9, 2008: "It will give our community a little bit of a lift right now to continue to diversify, and this will help us get through it" — Mayor Stephanie Killam, the mayor of Mackenzie, on $2 mil- lion from the province. A $129 million fund is there for workers in the province of British Columbia — for job creation, for tuition and for matching grants to bridge into retirement. We will be there for Mackenzie, like we were last week. We'll continue to be. We won't fly in and throw a bunch of negativity at a community.

We will build the positives, like the Minister of Agriculture was doing in that community. B. Simpson: After the Minister of Forests' visit to Mackenzie he stated in an interview: "I think Mackenzie is a great community, personally. I love this community, and I think they're saying we've got to help us get past this." The minister thinks Mackenzie is asking for help? Well, if he showed up at the rally, he would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this community… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. B. Simpson: …is asking this minister for help. They're demanding that this minister help.

If this minister truly loves Mackenzie, will he fol- low up on the Minister of Agriculture's commitment, go to the cabinet table and demand of the Premier $129 million of provincial money to match the federal money and make sure our communities get the support they deserve? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. R.

Coleman: What I will tell the member opposite is that the people that want to spend $250 million at Mackenzie Green Energy are not going to be biased against because this member wants to write the Premier and suggest bioenergy should come to his community first, because Mackenzie should be part of that plan too.

I will tell this member that we are working with proponents who are interested in buying the Mackenzie pulp mill so it can be put back into production for that community's future, and we'll continue to work with them in order to try and build the future of that community. [1405] I will tell this member that the fact of the matter is that there's a strong fibre supply in the area for this community, and we're going to work to make sure there's a strong industry fo r the future of this commu- nity as well. Mr. Speaker: I remind members — through the Chair. The member has a supplemental. B.

Simpson: So much for the love for the people of Mackenzie. The minister will not commit to go and ask the Premier for the money th at that community needs and all the other communities need to get the support from this government. In another post-Mackenzie interview the minister was asked specifically if Liberal forest policy was partly to blame for the impact of the current downturn. Here's the minister's answer: "Well, boldly would be that you know we had to look at what's out there and say, 'You know, not every time when….' Sometimes you swing at a bad pitch, and you say…. You have to

12886 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 admit that this didn't quite work the way you wanted it to. So let's go back and have a sober second look at some things, and that's what we'll do." I would like a translation sometime, but I take it that's a yes. The B.C. Liberals swung at bad pitches when they gutted the Forest Act in this province in 2003. One of those bad pitches was the focus of Mackenzie, and that is the bad pitch of cutting the link between communities and their public forests. The minister said that Mackenzie… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. B. Simpson: …has a strong fibre supply.

Mr. Speaker: Question, Member. B. Simpson: The question Mackenzie has for this minister is: will it be there when those mills come back up, or will they be another Kamloops, in which this minister will allow those forest licences to be sold for mills in Prince George? Will the minister commit today that Mackenzie's forest licences will stay in Mackenzie? Hon. R. Coleman: I have more of a question for the member opposite. When the mills are operating in Mackenzie, will it be okay if some logs come over from Fort St. James or Prince George? They were before, when they had all the mill s operating in Mackenzie.

Will that be all right, hon. Member? Because the fibre basket actually belongs to all of British Columbia. Mr. Speaker: Through the Chair, Minister. Hon. R. Coleman: Do you think there's a possibility that maybe there could be some movement of fibre between mills to get the right log to the right mill for the right job to build the ri ght economy for the future economy of British Columbia? GOVERNMENT SUPPORT FOR FOREST WORKERS R.

Fleming: This government's hastily concocted tuition assistance progra m for unemployed forest workers will cover only basic tuition fee costs at schools like College of New Caledonia and the Univer- sity of Northern British Columbia. It will not cover the cost of the institutions' actual costs for providing the student spaces. Right now these institutions are trying to cut costs in programs because this government re- duced their core funding by 2.6 percent only two months ago.

My question is: rather th an add to the deficits of B.C.'s public post-secondary institutions, will the Min- ister of Advanced Education agree to fully fund them to meet the requirement of th e Minister of Forests' un- coordinated program? Hon. C. Hansen: I ' m p r o u d o f t h e f a c t t h a t w h e n w e were allocated $129 million of federal money for resource communities, this Premier and this government made a decision that every single dollar was going to go to help forest workers and forest families. The tuition assistance…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Minister, just take your seat for a second.

Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Continue, Minister. Hon. C. Hansen: The tuition assistance program is specifically designed to help individual workers who, at a time that they may be temporarily unemployed, can actu- ally tap into up to $5,000 for tuition so that they can up- grade their skills. When those forest jobs return in those communities, they're going to be more prepared for the forest jobs of the future as a direct result of that $5,000. [1410] Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. R.

Fleming: You know, it's incredible to me that this minister expresses pride that the federal govern- ment has come to the table when his own government in British Columbia has been missing in action. The tuition assistance program is one that fewer than one in four displaced forestry workers will qualify for. There are between 4,500 and 5,000 laid-off displaced forest work- ers in the northern region served by the College of New Caledonia and Northern Lights region alone. In the town of Mackenzie 2,000 jobs were lost from the pulp mill, the paper mill and three sawmills closing. Forest workers expect….

Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. R. Fleming: Forest workers expect that any assistance being offered to them by this government is actually real. But as it stands, the government's tuition assistance program will further strain CNC and Northern Lights if potential students pursui ng retraining do not have ministry funding for new seats being created. Again to the minister: will he agree to fully fund new seats at the northern institutions so th ey'll have the ca- pacity to actually retrain displaced forest workers? Hon. C.

Hansen: Actually, I am proud of the fact that the federal government has put in $129 million. That's in addition to hundreds of millions of dollars that the provincial government has put into economic development in northern British Columbia. If the member were to check his facts, he would realize…. Interjections.

MONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12887 Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat. Continue, Minister. Hon. C. Hansen: If the member would check his facts, he would actually find that the College of New Caledonia and the college of the northern Rockies are receiving more funds this year than they have ever received in the history of those colleges. The member will know that the Premier announced the details of this funding just a week ago last Friday. We already have teams on the ground that are working in the communities of Mackenzie and Fort St.

James to make sure that those workers can get the benefit of those dollars at the earliest possible opportunity. The tuition assistance is available today for any displaced forest workers. GOVERNMENT ACTION ON FOREST INDUSTRY D. Routley: I t m u s t b e u n b e l i e v a b l e t o t h e f o r e s t families in these communities to hear these ministers. We have the new Nero, the Forests Minister who fiddles while our industry burns. He will do nothing. Now we have the "say anything" Economic Development Minis- ter, who will weasel out of his responsibility.

The 535 workers at Harmac who lost their jobs need answers. There are at least 2,000 direct family members, at least 2,000 other jobs implicated. This translates into local businesses being hurt. This translates into local people being hurt. The mill can run. It has markets. What it doesn't have is a minister who will do anything to help. We need this minister to promise today to this House and to the workers that he will guarantee a fibre supply to their mills to save those jobs, to keep those jobs in British Columbia. Hon. R.

Coleman: What Harmac needs right now is an investor with a vision of how to make that mill work in a competitive world with a growing supply of kraft fibre that is coming on the market in the next three to five years. They have some people doing that, looking at it today. For the member's information, I met with one of those proponents this morning and sat down with them, and we worked through what they needed to do and how they're going to look at this thing. The one thing there, hon. Member, is fibre. There will be fibre for that mill. Mr. Speaker: Through the Chair, Minister. Hon. R.

Coleman: The big thing to remember, hon. Member, is that we need an investor who has signifi- cant money to invest in Harmac for the future of that mill for the province of British Columbia. Mr. Speaker: Minister, through the Chair, please. The member has a supplemental. D. Routley: Shoulda, woulda, coulda. "We're gonna. We'll do it later. We're going to…." Enough of that from this government. [1415] Their policies drove these mills under. They didn't have fibre. Now the recruitm ent fairs are on, and pulp mills from Alberta and Saskatchewan are recruiting the skilled workers to their markets.

That is because of the policies of this government. That is the only reason that's happening. Those workers want to stay in British Columbia. What they don't see is a pl an. What they don't see is a minister who will do anything. They and I and this side of the House are calling on that minister to come down from the bleachers, stop being a spectator and take the action that's necess ary. We're telling him what to do. He can do it. Go down, Minister, and guarantee the fibre. Bring those jobs back to British Columbia. Stop making excuses. Mr. Speaker: Minister, and through the Chair, please. Hon. R.

Coleman: First of all, let's be really clear. There was no policy of this government that drove Harmac into bankruptcy. The member's definition might be to do anything, might be to go buy this mill — like they did at Skeena Cellulose — and blow $500 million. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. R. Coleman: I was also in Terrace last week at a round table, and a guy came up to me who used to h a v e a m i l l i n T e r r a c e . Y o u k n o w w h a t h e t o l d m e ? "The NDP bought Skeena Cellulose and kept sawmills running in competition to me.

They subsidized those mills and put me out of business." That's the type of policy you want. We're not going t h e r e , h o n . M e m b e r . W h a t w e w i l l d o i s w o r k w i t h investors. We'll work with the people to try and build a future for the Harmac mill. C. Evans: T h e m i n i s t e r s a y s i t ' s n o t a p o l i c y o f t h e government that drives companies into bankruptcy. I'm holding a letter from Andrew Powell of Paragon Wood Products, independent producer in the Okanagan. Mr. Powell says: "We regret to advise that we are now shutting down our primary operation at Lumby.

In short, we have no logs and no reasonable expectation of acquiring any. It doesn't take a great deal of effort to conclude that this government has decided it has no need any longer for independent companies in the forest industry, and so finally we are taking the hint." My question to the minist er is: is Mr. Powell wrong in believing it is the government's policy to use the downturn to wipe out the independent sector to re- ward the monopoly major holders of tenure when the markets come back? Hon. R. Coleman: Yes, I do believe he's wrong.

The fact of the matter is that this particular operation needs a certain kind of fibre which has a lot of competition coming from other mills all through the Interior and

12888 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 the coast of British Columbia. There have been actual sales…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. R. Coleman: There have been actual sales, no- bid sales, put up in this ar ea where this operation actu- ally runs, and not bid on. It's the profile of the log, and what they want to trade for it isn't the issue. It's the fact that the profile they want, th e fibre they want, is not in great supply in that particular timber supply area. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. C. Evans: I'm guessing there are some people that actually believe that answer.

My second letter is not from the particular timber supply area the minister refers to. It's not from that

section of the industry at all. It's not from the reman sector. It's from the Queen Charlotte Islands, from Randy O'Brien, CEO of O'Brien and Fuerst Logging Ltd. It's not to the minister; it's to the Premier. M r . O ' B r i e n s a y s t o t h e P r e m i e r : " Y o u d e p i c t y o u r government as being one that encourages secondary manufacturing. How is this when you are allowing ma- jor corporations to squeeze small business owners out?" My question is to the Premier.

Is the absolute vac- uum in the forestry file the ineptitude of the minister, or is it your direction to wipe out the independent sector? [1420] Hon. R. Coleman: I don't know this particular company's arrangement with other companies or what it might have bid on and how it would be…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. R. Coleman: There is competition out there for logging contracts, and people bid on them with compa- nies in order to do business. Frankly, that's the way the business operates in the field. I will check into the indi- vidual member's comments after question period. PACIFIC SALMON TREATY S.

Fraser: Not only is the forest industry suffering from failed Liberal policy and Liberal neglect, but our fishing communities are also under attack. The Cana- dian government recently announced the results of the Pacific salmon treaty deal with the United States, which was negotiated in complete absence of consultation with the fishing industry an d coastal communities that will be so badly affected by the 30 percent reduction in chinook salmon fishing. To the minister: is he going to follow the lead of other Liberal ministers and just be a spectator, or will he stand up for the B.C. fishing fleet? Hon. B.

Penner: We certainly will be standing up for Pacific salmon and making sure that conservation is first and foremost so that there is sustainable fishing. The member should know th at what's been concluded is a tentative agreement, and now there's consultation taking place with industry and other stakeholders that have received their feedback. I'll be interested to hear what the member has to say and whether he wants to see a repeat of what hap- pened on the east coast, wh ere people are fighting for the right to catch the last fish instead of making sure there's an abundance of fish to catch in the future. Mr.

Speaker: The member has a supplemental. S. Fraser: I was actually addressing that to the Minister of Agriculture and Lands, so this is interesting. It explains, I think, recent comments by the member for Nanaimo- Parksville when he was talking about doing away with the commercial fleet in favour of fish farms in B.C. There are still 160 troll vesse ls in Bamfield, Ucluelet and Tofino. Those fishermen, their families and these communities are the historic backbone of the fishing fleet and the economy, to a large extent, in this great province.

Instead, they're getting another Liberal min- ister sitting back as a spectator while the control of our public resource is being pulled away — this time not trees, but salmon. It's being handed over to the United States forever. Will the minister show some backbone and fight to protect our resource and our troll fleet, or will he fol- low the pattern, which we're getting used to, of Liberal ministers who simply give up on the very people that built the economy of this great province? Hon. B. Penner: As the member knows, these nego- tiations were led by the federal government through the DFO.

I will be getting a detailed briefing on those negotiations and what the recommendations are, and we'll be listening for feedback from all stakeholders. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. B. Penner: Let's keep something in perspective. For the first time this proposed agreement anticipates curtailments on the part of Alaska fishermen of 50,000…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat. Continue. Hon. B. Penner: For the first time, Alaska fisher- men would be expected to participate in conservation efforts to the tune of 50,000 fewer chinook salmon be- ing caught.

That stands in stark contrast to the record of the NDP when they were in government. What did they end up with at the end of the day? They ended up with a situ ation where Alaska did not

MONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12889 reduce their catch, where th ey picked a fight with our American neighbours and where the federal govern- ment pulled $125 million out of the Nanoose Bay set- tlement. That's the NDP's re cord. We're not interested in repeating it. FUNDING FOR POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION C. Puchmayr: The 2.6 percent funding cut for 25 post-secondary institutions in B.C. resulted in a $400,000 shortfall for Kwantlen. Today we saw a full-page ad in The Province newspaper with the smiling faces of the Premier and the Advanced Education Minister.

My question to the Adva nced Education Minister: who paid for these ads, and how much did they cost? [1425] Hon. M. Coell: For the member: as he knows, a $68 million increase in my budget this year. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. M. Coell: Now, I know the members opposite spoke against the new univer sities. I know they spoke against the new universities, but I want to know: does that member support Kwantlen becoming a university? This side of the House certainly does. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. C. Puchmayr: Well, we know that these types of ads cost between $10,000 and $15,000.

Why is money being spent on partisan photo ads when programs are being cut for students, especially students with disabilities? Instead of putting the money to students with dis- abilities and saving those programs, this government elects to put in partisan photo ads. Will the minister intervene and cut this practice immediately and restore the funding to post-secondary education? Hon. M. Coell: Well, the member knows that we have five new universities in British Columbia. I think he knows…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Minister, just take your seat. Continue, Minister. Hon. M.

Coell: I think the member knows that the five communities that those universities represent are pretty darn happy that they have universities. I think the member knows that the $68 million increase in the budget is an increase every year since we've been gov- ernment. I think the member knows that we spent $1.5 billion on infrastructure for universities and those five new universities. Now, I can't help it that the NDP, in second read- ing, continuously spoke against the creation of those new universities. On this side of the House, we're for them. [End of question period.] Petitions D.

Thorne: I rise to table a petition with 1,115 sig- natures asking that the Riverview lands in Coquitlam- Maillardville riding be kept in public ownership, with services for mental health and wellness, and protection of the botanical heritage and equality of the lands. With the petitions that were tabled before Christmas, this makes over 12,000 signatures asking for this. N. Macdonald: I'm tabling a petition with 1,028 names from Golden objecting to proposed private power projects on the Blaeberry River, Cedar Creek and Kicking Horse River.

The signators ask for a two-year moratorium on private power development so that environmental and recreational issues can be properly considered. S. Fraser: I present a petition from hundreds of British Columbians supporting the Promotion of Safe Antifreeze Act. Hon. J. van Dongen: I rise to table a document. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Tabling Documents Hon. J. van Dongen: This is a letter from the Auditor General, in response to my request for an independent review of the issues surrounding the research and training facility of ICBC. Mr. Speaker: Is leave granted? Leave granted. Petitions K.

Conroy: I rise to present a petition from 960 residents of Rossland asking that the government not approve any amendment to the controlled recreation area that would allow construction of a golf course or residential property in the Topping Creek watershed. [1430] G. Coons: I present a petition with over 300 names from the North Coast, specifically Bella Bella and Bella Coola, with concerns with the Coastal Ferry Act and wanting to place a moratorium on ferry fares. Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: The first order of the day comes to us from the staff who te nd to our needs in this

12890 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 chamber. They've asked me to remind people to begin the process of collecting personal items from the desks over the course of the week. Secondly, in this chamber — after discussions, hap- pily, with the Opposition House Leader — I call second reading of Bill 35, the Social Workers Act, and in

Section A, Committee of Supply, for the information of mem- bers, the estimates of the Office of the Premier. Hon. I. Chong: I seek leave to make an introduction. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Introductions by Members Hon. I. Chong: Today in the gallery — some have come and gone, but I know another group will be coming in shortly — I do want to acknowledge a number of stu- dents from Oak Bay high school, who are watching and observing things that are taking place in the chamber. A group was accompanied by their teacher Jacqueline Gillespie.

A number of senior students aged 16 and 17 were here earlier observing question period. I'm sure they have lots to take back to their classes. Later today another group of students from Oak Bay high school — again, senior students — led by their teacher Mr. Todd Evanchiew, will be in the House as well. I hope the House will make them welcome by this acknowledg- ment at this time. Second Reading of Bills SOCIAL WORKERS ACT Hon. T. Christensen: I move that Bill 35, the Social Workers Act, be read a second time now.

I understand that the opposition is supportive of Bill 35, and I simply propose to briefly comment on what this act will do. Registered social workers in British Columbia cur- rently lack the support of good professional govern- ance legislation. The current legislation is almost 40 years old and does not provide sufficient authority for effective regulation of the social work profession. Reg- istered social workers have told us that they want en- hanced governance and have asked for a major revi- sion to the existing legisl ation, and we are proud to have acted on their advice.

This legislation provides registered social workers with what they have been asking for by creating a B.C. college of social workers with the majority of its mem- bers elected by registrants. This legislation supports government's goal to build the best system of support in Canada for persons with disabilities, special needs, children at risk and seniors. [K.

Whittred in the chair.] I think we all recognize that as we work in our communities, registered social workers are an impor- tant part of our schools, hospitals, mental health and treatment facilities, child and family service provider programs, resource and counselling centres, and non- profit and government organizations. We also recog- nize, when we get an opportunity to sit down and talk about issues with social workers, that it is an incredibly complex, multifaceted profession that involves provid- ing direct services to some of the most vulnerable people in our communities.

Our first priority is to protect British Columbia's most vulnerable citizens, and a new college will help us do that. It will protect and represent the public in- terest while serving the professionalism of registered B.C. social workers. This new act will create the B.C. college of social workers. The board of the college will be responsible to govern, control and administer the affairs of the college. This legislation establishes comprehensive authority for the college to make bylaws in all areas necessary for professional governance.

Until now the board of registration for social work- ers has all been appointed by government. The newly established self-governing college will have a board with two-thirds of its members elected by registrants and the remainder appointed by myself as minister. [1435] The new act will enhance public protection by strengthening the college's disciplinary powers and by requiring employers to report terminations for miscon- duct to the college. All registered social workers will be required to report suspected abuse of clients by another registrant.

As well, a business associate who has reason to believe that a registrant might harm a member of the public and dissolves their business relationship as a result must report that dissolution to the college. The college will also be required to provide public notification of the disciplinary decisions that it makes. Extensive provisions to safeguard the rights of regis- trants have been included in the new act through the establishment of registration, inquiry and discipline processes that are transparent, impartial and fair.

The new act will establish the legal foundation for the college to create new professional categories of registered social workers authorized to perform specialized functions that the current act simply doesn't provide for. This act will also authorize interprovincial cooperation and enable the college to make agreements with other jurisdictions, such as determining the process for registering social workers moving to British Columbia from another province.

Finally, this act will bring B.C. legislation in line with legislation for registered social workers in other provinces by setting out pr ocedural requirements for registration, complaints an d disciplinary proceedings in a governing statute. Today there are more than 2,000 registered social workers across the province , each one day in and day out helping British Columbians to improve their lives. These legislative changes are the result of a long period of extensive consultation with the Board of Registration for Social Workers and with agencies that represent these social workers.

I want to thank all of those who have been involved in advocating for this legislation, for advocating for the

MONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12891 profession of social work across our province. We have asked for their advice on how to better protect the pub- lic and to strengthen the re gulation of the profession, and we have taken their advice to heart in moving this legislation forward. We are committed to building the best system of support in Canada for persons with disabilities, special needs, children at risk and seniors.

These changes will help us meet that commitment by enabling this new B.C. college of social workers to better protect the safety of the often vulnerable people who receive regis- tered social work services in a wide range of sectors and service areas right across British Columbia. The new act provides certainty and greater fairness for applicants, registrants, clients and others affected by professional regulation of social workers. N. Simons: It's my pleasure to be able to offer com- ments from this side of the House on the Social Workers Act.

I talked to many social workers in late April after the act was tabled for the first time and heard many positive comments about the legislation and about how long overdue it was to update legislation that actually was written a long time ago, in the late '60s originally. Many people in the social work profession have been calling on this act to be brought forward and have been calling on this legislation to finally address some of the outstanding issues th at could only be addressed through updating the legislat ion.

As people know, leg- islation needs to be reviewed and updated according to circumstances in our communities. As we learn about the regulation of various profes- sions, we also know that those regulations and legisla- tion governing those regulations sometimes need to be changed and updated. What is particularly rewarding for social workers is that they believe their voice is now being heard and being expressed through the tabling of this legislation.

I'm pleased to say that this side of the House has been looking forward to having this legislation come for- ward, and we've been looking forward to being able to extol its virtues as well as to perhaps illustrate where some concerns might be raised.

However, this is a bill that has been long awaited by social workers, who believe that it will do a lot to ensure that their profession is managed and overseen by a quality board and by a college that actually has the ability to govern their professionals. [1440] Social workers, as members in this House know, have an extremely complicated job, and I think that complicated job is illustrated quite clearly in this new definition of social workers.

Social work encompasses or means "the assessment, diagnosis, treatment and evaluation of individual, interpersonal and societal issues through the use of social work knowledge, skills, interventions and strategies, to assist individuals, cou- ples, families, groups, organizations and communities to achieve optimum psychological and social function- ing." A social worker is "a person who practises social work." With that clarification for the people of British Columbia through the new Social Workers Act, we actually finally have a clear definition of what social workers do.

And yes, in fact, it does say that they do everything, and social workers will agree that they in fact do everything. It's an opportunity for them to see that their profession is being treated like other profes- sions in the province, with a regulatory body, a body that can do disciplinary hearings and can provide all sorts of insight to the professionals who practise social work. It's a good day for the province. It's a good day that we have this bill on the table, and it's also going to be a good day when further informatio n can be elicited through questioning in the committee stage.

That may identify some issues that it would be good to have on the record in terms of the expected rollout of the Social Workers Act. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Now, I mentioned that in 1968…. When the first Social Workers Act was created, it called for a board made up of two private citizens, I believe it was, and the rest were eight government appointments. Oh, they were all gov- ernment appointments. I think that partly what this bill does is add the voice of social workers into the college. The voice of registered social workers will be heard.

They will be dealt with and spoken to and understood as a body representing registered social workers who deal with many of the most vulnerable people in our provinces. They deal with children in schools. They deal with patients and families in hospitals. They help navigate, sometimes, the very complex systems of government and non-government agencies to access help that they need, whatever their circum stance. There are social workers who assist prisoner s upon release from jails, where their reintroduction into society is made easier. We all benefit from social workers, whether we have a social worker or not.

I believe that when we think about the work that they do, we realize the breadth and the scope of their work and how it impacts on all of us in such a positive way. Now, in committee stage certain issues will be raised, partly because we are now, I think, the fourth- from-last province to have updated our legislation to a similar standard. It's good, and it's not a negative. I don't mean it as a slight in any way. But what it does exemplify or illustrate is the complexity of the situa- tion, the complexity of the work that social workers do. How is it to be governed? How is it to be overseen?

And how is it that the community will benefit from this governance model change? I believe that the minister is correct, in that it will add to the confidence of the people of British Colum- bia. They know that those social workers who work with their grandparents or children or whoever they happen to work with are held to a standard that is un- derstood and defined and clearly illustrated, so that when, in fact, there is a need to step in to address con- cerns within that college, th ey have the authority to do that.

12892 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 We know that lawyers have the ability to regulate their industry, so to speak, and that it serves the public interest knowing that ther e's an independent college looking at the practice of social workers and establish- ing fundamental expectations of what social workers should be providing and the manner in which they provide that service. The college of social workers will replace the board. [1445] I believe that there will be a lot of work in the tran- sition phases.

When you talk to social workers, they often talk about the need for adequate transition to make sure that the new situation is dealt with in a way that isn't a shock — that there's a transition that'll allow all those who are involved in this profession to make the appropriate adjustments, such as they need to be. Now, there are some people who will see that this is

an act that is a long time in coming and that finally, there's a recognition for the important and distinct role that registered social workers play in our province. There are some people who are concerned that this might look like an exclusive piece of legislation, one that may exclude certain people who provide essential social services to communities and that maybe they will not be included in that college. Some provinces have dealt with the difference be- tween registered social workers and others who work in the social service field by creating legislation specifically for those social service work ers.

They're separate and distinct from the work of social workers and registered social workers. I don't want to add to this idea that there is any conflict or any differences of opinion in terms of the quality or the importance of the work, but there's a professional body of social workers, and there are hun- dreds of people who would benefit from membership.

Currently we see a situation where, if there's a concern about a social worker and if someone brings a concern to light, the board of social workers would be without any recourse in the previous legislation should that individual decide to withdraw from membership. That's sort of like taking the teeth out of any particular enforcement mecha- nism, and legislation without teeth is gummy at best. The importance of establ ishing standards and es- tablishing clear and precise

definitions of the various occupations that are encompassed in social work I think is a good step. It's a step that I think most every- one I've spoken to has said is a good idea. The transi- tion is not just in terms of the legislation being new, but many of the regulations, I believe, will have to be up- dated, and much of the background support for this bill will have to be updated and potentially changed.

On a positive note are some of the comments that we've heard from people ab out this act, the Social Workers Act, Bill 35: "The improved recognition and regulation of social work in B.C. is critical to better un- derstanding and serving those who receive social work services," and "The creation of a college is a major step in the direction of protecting the public and supporting the profession of social work and self-regulation." The comments from social workers have been quite clear. They have been wanting this legislation for a long time.

They've been in extensive discussions not just with the ministry but also with those who were charged with drafting the legislation. We've seen some legislation come before the House that is very, very simple and straightforward.

I would submit that this is complicated, and it's important that in c o m m i t t e e s t a g e w e m a k e s u r e t h a t i t ' s a d e q u a t e i n a l l aspects of its development — that it does in fact provide for the protection of the public that we hope it does and that it does in fact provide for the protection of the social worker, as well, in terms of being able to be not just a disciplinary college but one that is also supporting best practice and innovation in all aspects in social work. [1450] Many child protection so cial workers are not neces- sarily members of the board or registered social workers.

This might be a place for many of them to find common needs met through an advoca c y b o d y a s w e l l . I k n o w they're not specifically set up for that purpose, but when there's a college established, it does provide that profes- sion with the recognition of their role as a professional. Another social worker made a comment that you needed to be registered to work in forestry but not in social work. When you work with trees or when you work with individuals, ther e seems to be a bit of a standard difference there.

In fact, they're sort of point- ing out the obvious, illustrating that, it's safe to say, for decades…. It has been a long time for this legislation to find its way here, and I'm pleased that it is here. The Association of Social Workers has been lobby- ing for changes for a long time. There are a number of positive aspects of this legislation that will be both…. We'll see them as they co me out during the committee stage as well. What I'm saying is that the opposition will have an opportunity to address those concerns that may have been raised by others after April 28, when the legislation was originally tabled.

Now, some of those have to do with cross- jurisdictional issues and the accreditation that's necessary in different provinces. I think that we need to be careful to ensure that provinces are aware of the standards of every program that trains social workers and trains people to work in the social services sector. In order to really under- stand the impact that could have, with having varying levels of qualification and then having workers from one province go to another province with different levels of expertise…. I think those are among the issues that need to be discussed in further detail.

Now, I'm hoping that during the phase of transition from the current governance structure to the eventual governance structure that the necessary resources are in place in order for that to occur. There are a number of committees under the board, and they have to do with everything — registration, a discipline committee, quality assurance committees. While they exist already, they're going to need time to be transitioned into the new governance structure. The bylaws and the standard s, not just the practice standards but the ethical standards, the competency standards….

Once again, the current bylaws, I'm sure, will be applicable, but how they're established and

MONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12893 how they're reviewed by the new board is also going to be something that we're going to be talking about at length, I hope, in order to make sure of the soundness of the legislation. It would be a good opportunity now to make sure that when we establish it, that it's road- worthy, as they say. I think it's fair to say that social workers are very good at analyzing situations. Just look at the job description currently in the Social Workers Act.

I think they will be looking at this legislation from not just the perspective of: "Finally, we're seen as professional, and that's the end of it." In a way, there is an onus on social workers as a regis- tered body of professionals to maintain standards that meet the communities' needs and that also ensure that information and knowledge about social work practice is shared among professionals and is understood. There will be a body over which social work practice…. It will over- see social work practice in a more comprehensive way. Part of what this act might do is clarify for some people how there are so many

definitions of social workers. I will say that many people even in this precinct are sometimes using "social work" in a way that isn't quite precise. There are different kinds of social workers, and there are peop le who do different kinds of social service work.

I guess the concern that many h a v e i s , b y h a v i n g t o b e a r e g i s t e r e d s o c i a l w o r k e r i n order to be called a social worker, that that in some way has an impact on the quality of the other work that has sometimes been called social work. [1455] I want to make sure that it's understood that there is a breadth of skill necessary in social work to deal with almost every aspect of society. It's not always just an individual family. Some times these social workers are dealing with societal issues and how to address the challenges that sometimes entire communities face.

With this act, we'll see that there's a recognition for the breadth of practice that exists as well as for the standards of that practice. After four decades of…. Essentially, there's been lobby- ing for four decades, apparently, referring to the old legis- lation as antiquated. This is, in effect, a relief. When social workers across this province hear that Bill 35 is going for third reading in the near future, they will be pleased. There will be a lot of people who are saying: "Finally.

It's about time that we have had this issue addressed." The complexity of the issue has been partly what has stalled, but I'd say that negotiations and discussions have been going on for a long time. This is something that has been applauded and welcomed by various social work agencies in the province. The concerns around some of the mobility of work- ers should be addressed in committee stage. Concerns over the potential exclusion of some people should be discussed.

I believe that this is the forum for that sort of debate, and this is the forum for trying to find out much about a piece of legislation — not just its intent but its potential impact. It's

an act that social workers have been asking for, for many years, and the chan ges that it will impact…. In effect, the changes will come later. In a way, it's

an act that will enable the strengthening of regulations and standards, and that, in it self, is a good thing. We need to be sure that all aspects of this legislation meet the needs of all of those wh o are working in the social services sector. Without going into the details of concerns, they are not sufficient to really do more than heighten our in- terest in knowing more about various parts of the act. This is a good day for soci al workers. It's obviously going to be a good day for the college. It's about time. I think we've seen that every major profession in the province is regulated.

People have the resulting confi- dence in that profession. I think that if there are ways that we can make sure that the public has confidence in their social workers and th at there are professionals overseeing the practice of th ose social workers, that's not a bad thing. It's not about policing. It 's about just ensuring the integrity of the profession, a profession that promotes health — individual health, community health and societal health. I think the public of British Columbia are pleased that this is on the agenda.

They're pleased that it's going to be going to third reading, and I'm looking forward to that time. Mr. Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, Minister of Children and Families closes debate. Hon. T. Christensen: I thank the member opposite for his comments about Bill 35. With that, I move that the bill now be read a second time. Motion approved. Hon. T. Christensen: I move that Bill 35, the Social Workers Act, be referred to a Committee of the Whole House to be considered at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 35, Social Workers Act, read a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for con- sideration at the next sitting of the House after today. Hon. B. Penner: I call committee stage debate on Bill 22, Health Care Costs Recovery Act. [1500] Committee of the Whole House HEALTH CARE COSTS RECOVERY ACT The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 22; K. Whittred in the chair. The committee met at 3:01 p.m. On

section 1. A. Dix: We have, actually, a very few questions for the minister on Bill 22. We've got an afternoon of dis- cussion on these three bills.

12894 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 My first question on th e

definitions…. Just going through the

definitions,

part icularly the definition of health care services as it applies here in the act, can the minister clarify for me that Pharmacare costs would, in the case of the bill, all be recoverable? I n o t h e r w o r d s , e s p e c i a l l y w i t h r e s p e c t t o l o n g - t e r m Pharmacare costs, when we de fine health care services, which is the recovery of the cost of health care services and which I think is probably beyond what's covered by similar measures in other jurisdictions…. How might Pharmacare costs, which conceivably could be in existence over a long period of time, be picked up?

Does the minis- ter feel satisfied that those costs would be covered here? Hon. G. Abbott: First, I should introduce the staff with me today. On my left is Gord Macatee, who is the Deputy Minister of Health. Behind us are Barbara Carmichael and Corrie Campbell, respectively. The answer to the hon. member's question is yes. Pharmacare costs are among those which we hope to recapture. A. Dix: Just so we get it correctly, that's contained in part (

e) under "health care services." Those wouldn't be just drug services that might be picked up under the Hospital Insurance Act but in fact would be Phar- macare claims that could actually go for a very long period of time under those acts. I j u s t w a n t t o b e c l e a r t h a t i t ' s u n d e r s e c t i o n (

e) where it says: "any other act or thing, including, without limitation, the provision of any health care treatment, aid, assistance or service or any drug, device or similar matter associated with personal injury." That's where the Pharmacare provisions would come in. Hon. G. Abbott: The answer is yes, but only the province's portion of the costs. A. Dix: In terms of that, to explain how those esti- mates would work, can the minister explain how that would work in terms of the Pharmacare provisions?

Really, those are the only qu estions I have under this section. [1505] If as the result of negligence in this case, for exam- ple, a long-term need for a particular drug was necessi- tated by the incompetence or the issue under which the claim was made, the government would make an esti- mate of that, and that would be provided by the claim. Is that kind of how it would work in that case? Hon. G. Abbott: There would be consultations with medical professionals to try to determine what the pharmaceutical needs of the accident victim would be.

What we would attempt to determine through a pro- fessional consultation at the time of settlement is what future drugs are required, an d an allocation would be made of the provincial shar e of those drug costs. The patient's share of the drug costs at settlement would be recovered by the patient. So there would be a division there based on the division of drug costs. Sections 1 to 6 inclusive approved. On

section 7. A. Dix: We have an amendment standing in my name on the order paper, which I don't intend to move at this time. I think maybe we'll have the discussion and move through. One of the issues that in other jurisdictions has been put forward is the idea that a particular hospital…. Say, essentially, that a very expensive case goes forward. Let's just say that Royal Co lumbian Hospital picked up the costs of a particular case, which could conceivably be in the millions of dollars to that hospital. I guess my question to th e minister is: would the money, the benefit in this case, come back to the Crown?

I'm using this as an example. This question could actually be asked on a number of sections of the bill, so why don't we have the debate here and then just leave it? Royal Columbian Hospital has a cost of $3 million or $4 million on a particular case, which really came out of their budget, yet the money would eventually come back to the Crown.

As is the case in Britain with some similar laws, do you think it would be useful — for a particular hospital, which took up almost all the costs or had to pay out almost all the costs or assume all the costs on a particular case — for that money, in that case, to go back to that hospital? Or is the minister satisfied that the money would come back to the Crown and then be divided up? The minister said before, I think, in his response to the second reading debate that it was satisfactory to him that 40 percent or 45 percent of the costs that would come back to the Crown would go to health care.

But does he think there should be some particular allocation in that case, say, to a particular hospital? Or is he satisfied that the Royal Columbian Hospital or another hospital that might assume a particular cost in a particular case would be compensated adequately to do that? The idea here is that the state gets that money back, but in some cases it might be that a particular hospital in a particular set of circumstances has a particularly high cost. Does the minister not think that perhaps that hospital should get or receive the compensation that comes back in a particular case? [1510] Hon. G.

Abbott: First of all, I gather we'll see this in the form of an amendment la ter on, and I'll be seeking the advice of the Chair with respect to whether the amendment is in order or not. To briefly address the member's point, I think it's a good, appropriate question to be asking. I think the answer to the question is this. In these kinds of cases, to try to say the dollar should go exclusively to Royal Columbian Hospital or here or there is probably not going to be practical. In most instances where as a consequence of wrongdoing or some unfortunate accident — one can't

MONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12895 begin to imagine all the circumstances that might pro- duce a judgment…. They may initially get their treat- ment — and I'll use the member's example — at Royal Columbian Hospital. There will be some expenses to Royal Columbian Hospital, no doubt, but the surgeon's fees, for example, will be part of MSP. The drugs will be Pharmacare. So it's difficult to know exactly. Plus, it may be that after a stay at Royal Columbian — where the trauma, for example, is being dealt with — there may be a long period where the patient is at G.F.

Strong getting rehab services, and then they may return to Kamloops to live in long-term residential care that supports their condition. It's difficult to make those kinds of judgments about division of legal reve- nues, so I don't think it's practical on that basis. A. Dix: The minister will ag ree, though, that the purpose of the bill is to ensure that health costs that are being borne by the province but that are really, in a sense, the responsibility of some negligent individual o r c o m p a n y b e p i c k e d u p b y t h a t i n d i v i d u a l .

I t d o e s s o r t o f f l o w t h a t i f i n a p a r t i c u l a r c a s e t h e h e a l t h e x - penses are picked up by Royal Columbian Hospital or, as he said, by G.F. Strong, those expenses — if they were particularly large — might be picked up through the same costs. Rather than move the amendment, because I don't think…. I agree with the minister that since the amend- ment that stands in my name on the order paper might well have produced an obligation on the Crown and therefore might not be in order, I think we'll just have the debate. I won't move my amendment standing in my name on the order paper.

I think that's fair enough. [1515] I wanted to ask the minister: what process might they consider under those circumstances? I think it's fair to say that there might be a circumstance…. The minister talked about $6 million to $12 million a year, depending on the year, and it would obviously vary greatly. Will the minister and the Crown have a process to consider that? Given that it might be the case that the Crown or a particular agency like G.F. Strong picks up an unusual share of the costs, will there be a process to deal with that on the Minist ry of Health side?

It seems to me that's kind of the purpose of the bill. Hon. G. Abbott: I think that in addition to the comments I provided last time, which is that it would be rare where, as a result of the catastrophic injuries sustained by an individual as a consequence of the wrongdoing or failure or something of another party, it would rest entirely with one particular facility within the health care system….

However, let's hypothetically go to the member's suggestion, because it is conceptually or theoretically possible that in a particular case there could be an out- come which meant an additional burden of millions of dollars annually to a particul ar health authority. What we would attempt to do in a case like that is what we do in the normal annual budg et process, which is that beyond what we allocate through the population- needs-based formula….

We have allocations over and above that which would reflect new long-term care facilities coming on or new tertiary or community hos- pital facilities coming on — those kinds of things. So in a case where there was something huge enough that might happen, where it could perceptibly or measurably affect a health authority, we would try to be sensitive to that in the annual budget discussions that we had with the authority. A. Dix: W h a t t h e m i n i s t e r i s s a y i n g i s t h a t i f h e were discussing this issue with the Minister of Finance, he would make the case, or the process here would be….

In some cases we've had bills in the past, as you know, where we've said that half of lottery revenues should go to health care, and that was a debate that was held and so on. In this case the Minister of Health would make the case, presumably, that if in a particular year — I don't know — a $30 million settlement came in to the gov- ernment, the allocation of costs might be affected. The Minister of Health would make that case within the budget round that given that a particular settlement was high, the Minister of Health would have the responsibil- ity.

Rather than having a statutory requirement to do that, the Minister of Health should make that case within the budget process. Hon. G. Abbott: First of all, a settlement of $30 mil- lion would be an uncommon one and would likely be one of the class action settlem ents. Those tend to run, I understand, in the $3 million to $5 million area, and those are the larger ones. The personal injury ones tend to be much smaller, and it would be difficult to try to demonstrate that a particular health authority had a preponderance of the p e r s o n a l i n j u r y c a s e s . T h a t ' s n o t l i k e l y t o h a p p e n .

They're going to be kind of spread around. [1520] I think it goes back to the earlier answers, which is that in the single-payer syst em that we have, the prov- ince funds the health author ities. The distribution of services across health authorities tends to sort of mediate these kinds of things. But again, in some extraordinary circumstance where there was a large and dispropor- tionate burden to a particular health authority, we would undoubtedly discuss that within the bounds of the annual budgeting discussion.

Section 7 approved. On

section 8. A. Dix: I wanted to ask the minister about this process, because

section 8 talks about the government's independent right to recover. We understand what the process is if a case for wron gdoing is brought, and the government is automatically joined to the case — or that the people bringing the case have an obligation to inform the government, and the government is auto- matically joined.

12896 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 In this case, no case is brought under

section 8, and what's suggested is that the government has an inde- pendent right to bring a case forward. I wanted to ask the minister what processes will be put in place, if any, to bring this into action. In other words, is the government suggesting that maybe a whole — I don't know — group of lawyers or an individual lawyer or an individual public servant might be reviewing all cases? How would this measure be brought into force or br ought into action by the government? Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for his question.

The act does provide the authority to bring inde- pendent action in cases, for example, where the indi- vidual who may have been the victim in the accident is for whatever reason not motivated to proceed. This provision in the act would provide government with the authority to undertake independent action for recovery of costs. Another example might be where there are several individuals on their own — maybe not particularly large health care costs, but aggregated are significant…. Again, the act would provide us with the authority to undertake independent action for recovery.

In terms of process, it would be Ministry of Health legal and other officials and health authority officials who might flag an issue of consequence and concern, and we would undoubtedly seek further advice from the Ministry of Attorney General before proceeding. [1525] A. Dix: Just to understand this. What they found in Alberta…. This was more involving car insurance, which is obviously not dealt with in the same way here. As I understand it, when this was brought into effect in Alberta, the issue was: how exactly would you become aware of a case if someone didn't sue?

I think what happened in Alberta was that they had a process set up. What they discovered was that the process itself to oversee different cases as they came forward was more expensive than the amount of money that was actually brought in by having the capacity to review all these cases. I guess what I'm asking is: will the Ministry of Health or the Ministry of Attorney General, or whoever is responsible in this case, set up a new process of re- view in order to ensure that they pick up cases beyond cases brought by individuals who have complaints? Hon. G.

Abbott: I think what the member is asking is how we will be aware of cases and how we will de- termine whether a given case is worth fighting or not worth fighting, in terms of the recoveries we are apt to receive from it. In terms of whether we need to fight cases where recoveries are minimal or less than the cost of recovering them, no. There' s nothing in this act that would compel us to undertake a legal case where we didn't believe the recoveries warranted our entry into it. The insurers, I'm advised, have an obligation under this act to inform the minist ry, I think, of these issues.

We would, I suppose, like any other party that was considering entering a class action or other legal action, do a careful assessment of what we would be apt to recover versus costs and make a decision based on that. In making a decision, we might well secure the advice of the Ministry of Attorney General as well as the advice of our own legal advisers in the Ministry of Health. A. Dix: Let me try and give an example to the min- ister just so I understand. I'm injured in some way. We'll just give an example. My doctor believes that a particular insulin that I take, say, was faulty in some fashion. I'm a diabetic.

I decide not to sue for whatever reason. Will the minister, within the hospital system…? I'm taken to the hospital. There are costs associated with that faulty insulin in some fashion. The manufac- turer has made a mistake, and I decide not to sue for whatever reason. My doctor knows about it, or the hospital may know about it and may suspect that. Will there be a process in the Ministry of Health to review such cases? [1530] The thing kicking off the Ministry of Health's involvement if I sue is that my lawyer has to inform the Ministry of Health — right?

But without that, will the Ministry of Health be putting any new processes in place at the hospital level or the reporting level to inform the ministry so that the ministry may attempt to recover the health costs spent on me in the hospital because of that theoretically faulty insulin? Hon. G. Abbott: The answer is yes, in terms of process. Both at the hospital level and at the health authority level, there is a process whereby information that is secured at the hospital level is sent along to the third-party liability branch at the Ministry of Health.

At that point the issue would be flagged, and the assessment we discussed previously would be determined. A. Dix: J u s t t o b e c l e a r o n that. Presumably, this would be somewhat enhanced by the expanded use of electronic medical records — wouldn't it? Would that conceivably aid the government in that regard? It seems to me that otherwise, the process would be ex- tremely hit-or-miss unless you had some new process in place at the hospital level to assist you. Hon. G. Abbott: We are permitted to use our elec- tronic databases only for the purposes of providing health care. A.

Dix: So in that case, any new changes wouldn't be brought into place. Th e process would be as the minister describes, but this portion of it isn't something that the government would expect to get a lot of money from. Essentially, you're just giving yourself the right to recover such expenses if something happens, but i t ' s k i n d o f a d e f a u l t — right? You're not going to be

MONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12897 actively pursuing that part of it. The main recoveries that the government would see would be strictly through cases brought by others, which the govern- ment would attach itself to. [S. Hammell in the chair.] Hon. G. Abbott: The purpose of the bill is for gov- ernment to be able to make health care cost recoveries. It's not to make legal suits a profit centre for government. It's to try to recover legitimate health care costs that have been incurred by the people of British Columbia. [1535] In most instances the substantial recoveries will be in areas where there are cl ass action suits underway, but as this

section of the bill indicates, it's not the only way that recoveries can be made. A. Dix: This will be my last question. In the minis- ter's or the staff's history in other jurisdictions — be- cause the minister is coming up to other jurisdictions — have there been any cases where the government has taken legal action for health care recoveries? Of course, as the minister says, if there are no health care costs, the government isn't going to get a judgment.

But in other jurisdictions where similar rules are in place, have there been any cases where the government has taken action independent of a suit by an individual or by a class? Hon. G. Abbott: The member may want to rejig his question, but it is difficult fo r us to be definitive about what has occurred in other jurisdictions. We under- stand that provisions like this exist in other jurisdic- tions, but when and how they 've used them, it's tough for us to be definitive on. Sections 8 to 24 inclusive approved. On

section 25. A. Dix: On the regulations section, can the minister give us any sense of the intent in terms of bringing regulations pursuant to this into effect? Are we ready to go? This will save us the questions on

section 28 as well. Is the government kind of ready to go here in terms of the regulations to bring the bill into force? Hon. G. Abbott: It is difficult to put a precise time frame around when the regulations will be in place. I expect it will be over the next few months that the bill comes into force, but it will depend on how quickly all of the necessary regulations and provisions can be brought into force. [1540] Sections 25 to 28 inclusive approved. Title approved. Hon. G. Abbott: I move the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment. Motion approved. The committee rose at 3:41 p.m.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Report and Third Reading of Bills HEALTH CARE COSTS RECOVERY ACT Bill 22, Health Care Costs Recovery Act, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed. Hon. G. Abbott: I call committee stage on Bill 23, the Public Health Act. Committee of the Whole House PUBLIC HEALTH ACT The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 23; S. Hammell in the chair. The committee met at 3:43 p.m. On

section 1. A. Dix: I just want to start by thanking the minister, the deputy minister and Dr . Kendall and the team for providing us with a briefing on the bill last week, which I think will greatly shorten the debate and was also very helpful. I thank the minister and his staff for that. On

section 1, I think the minister would agree that one of the innovative parts of the bill is the definition here provided to "health impediment" which I think will assist us. Maybe the minister can speak to the pur- pose of it, because it seems to me that that will provide us with an ability to get at some public issues that are not, shall we say, emergencies but some of the issues such as the trans fat issue, which is one of the broader public initiatives that will come out of this bill. Perhaps the minister could speak to that definition — why it's in the bill and what the government seeks to accomplish by it.

Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for his question. Joining me again is my deputy Gord Macatee, and behind me are Dr. Brian Emerson and Dr. Perry Kendall. Dr. Kendall is the chief provincial health officer for the province of British Columbia. [1545] In terms of the member's question, I think he summarized it correctly that a health impediment is something that might produce long-term cumulative effects in relation to public health, may cause chronic disease or disability, interfer es with the prevention of injury or illness or is some thing associated with poor population health.

12898 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MAY 26, 2008 Though trans fats would be a very good example of a health impediment, the impacts of trans fats are not immediate. They are cumula tive and long term, but there's not an immediate risk to health. It is a longer- term process whereby it has that deleterious effect. Sections 1 and 2 approved. On

section 3. A. Dix: Perhaps the minister could introduce this

section by giving some indication of the purpose for which he would plan to use it. It says, of course, that the minister may require public health plans. Just to introduce this sort of health planning part of the de- bate, perhaps the minister can talk about how and when he would intend to use this — to assist us as we go through these sections. Hon. G. Abbott: This provision around public health planning would structure more formally what has already been undertaken in the province, which is the production of public health reports in particular areas.

For example, a health authority or a regional hospital district might be obliged to produce a public health plan in respect of the management of HIV issues within its bounds or mental health issues within its bounds, and so on. Those are the kinds of things that would be done under this provision. Sections 3 and 4 approved. On

section 5. A. Dix: Just on

section 5, this

section essentially talks about the impact of public health plans on statutory de- cisions. It gives the minister 's plans a certain override, both

section 5 and I think

section 6, over other plans already made by the provincial government. Can the minister just talk a little bit about that relation- ship, particularly its relationship between public health plans and other plans put forward, say, by local govern- ment but also other agenc

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0526pm-07
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0526pm 07
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	692844b98f132df6081fbe64acf4ffd5169ee82c

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).