.....:· Volume XL Wednesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 46 4 June 1986

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Mines and Energy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, as hon. members are aware, the iron ore segment of our mineral industry comprises, by far, the largest percentage of the value of mineral production in this Province. Last year, 1985, it was approximately 90 per cent or some $836 million.

Each year we watch closely the developing market for pellets and concentrates and we have just been informed of Wabush Mines • revised production allocation for the current year. The capacity of Wabush Mines is six million tons of concentrate, all of which is converted to pellets at Point Noire. The tonnage figure for this year has just been revised downward, by the partners, from 5.8 million tons to 5.4 million tons of pellets because of a reduction in the requirements of the United States partners. These are LTC, Inland Steel, Interlake, Wheeling-Pittsburg and Moore McCormack.

The production of concentrate at Wabush will be just over 5 million tons. The will L2665 reduced output requirement translate into a suspension June 4, 1986 Vol XL of the Wabush Mines operation for a period of seven weeks and this down time will begin at the end of June. The work force in the operation is currently stabilized at around 600. A number of the employees will be able to take their regular paid vacation during the down time but most workers will be unemployed for at least part of the seven weeks.

The Newfoundland iron ore industry has been weathering the troubled times that affect the ore and steel industry world-wide. Although the end of our difficulties is not yet in sight, the companies, Wabush Mines and the Iron Ore Company of Canada, have made great progress in cost cutting and other measures to ensure their competitiveness in the world market place. The valuable contribution of the work force in this process, at both operations, has been an important factor in these companies' ability to remain competitive. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his statement, a few seconds before the House opened. It is amazing to see, Mr. Speaker, the minister concerned with Mines in the Estimates Committee and in this House and at various places publicly continue to paint a rosy picture of the mining industry generally around the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. This statement today and statements No. 46 R2665

concerning Daniel's Harbour and othe~ places around the Province are disappointing, particularly in light of the comments made by, I think, the Premie~ and the minister earlier, that the situation in Wabusb was indeed stabilizing and improving. We hope the minister will monitor this situation closely. We note the bottom part of that statement says a number of employees will be able to take their regular vacations, but most workers will be unemployed at least part of the seven weeks, and we are talking about 600 workers.

So really we are not seeing a rosy picture, as the minister has stated so many times in this House, in light of what has happened in Buchans in years back, and just recently Daniel's Harbour, with the 165 mine~s laid off there, and the miners laid off by the Iron Ore Company of Canada in the last number of years. We continuously hear the minister talking about the Chetwynd gold mine and the St. Lawrence fluorospar mine, we hear a lot of talk, but we hear of very few jobs being created in this particular sector, Mr . Speaker.

What we have heard from this particula~ minister in the last year or so has been a domino of negative events which have impacted negatively upon miners and their families. So, Mr. Speaker, we see this statement as a disappointment. We call upon the minister to pay special attention to it, and to monitor and focus in daily on this situation to get these people back to work as soon as possible. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! L2666 June 4, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further Statements By Ministers? MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, by leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS : No, leave . No .

PREMIER PECKFORD: There is leave from this side, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: We have no objection, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWI CK: The one comment I do want to make on it is it shows us the need for the Labour Standards Act to stay the same way it was about a year and a half ago, or so, when it would have provided enough decent lead time for this so that the people in Wabush would have a chance to make their plans properly this Summer.

We are looking at approximately three to three and a half weeks between the time of this announcement and the time that the layoffs and the vacations are expected to start, and we are talking about 600 people, their wives and their children who have to make plans for this Summer. Under the previous Labour Standards Act, they would have had a considerably longer period of time.

That infamous Bill 37, rammed through the House by the government opposite, has taken away this major advantage they had to plan out their lives and, as a result, we are now going to see a tremendous amount of panic and inconvenience on the part of these individuals. I deplore the idea No. 46 R2666

that we have to take the down time, but, at the same time, we should have had the strong labour standards regulations that we had before in order to protect these miners. The fact of the matter is, there is very little protection left. The mining company could have done its job a little bit better and a month ago we could have known when this situation was arriving. Instead, they just procrastinated and procrastinated because there was no penalty against them.

Unfortunately, the people who are going to pay the cost of this are the people of Wabush, and I feel that is a horrible thing to have been done to them by this government. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, the inshore fishery is off to an earlier than usual start this year as a result of favourable conditions, and the industry is currently gearing up for its peak period.

In connection with this activity, I would like to ·inform the House that as of June 2, my department's inshore fish distribution programme has begun operation throughout the Province. My department programme during inshore fishing attempt to find operates this the peak of the season in an markets in the Province for which may situations in surplus raw result from fish glut particular areas.

L2667 June 4, 1986 Vol XL Programme co-ordinators monitor landings in their region, and when a surplus to local processing capacity is deemed to exist, they attempt to co-ordinate the movement of this surplus to plants where there is a deficiency of supply. This process is actively monitored and solutions are sought to any problems which arise. In addition, departmental personnel are actively involved with other agencies in determining the most effective utilization of over-the-side and over-the-wharf sales arrangements with foreign vessels.

As in the past, seven programme co-ordinators will be stationed around the Province: One each in Harbour Grace, Bonavista, Lourdes, Gander, Port Saunders, Marystown and Happy Valley. These co-ordinat<;>rs will be on the job eight hours a day from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00p.m., six days a week. The co-ordinators are now visiting all plants and meeting with the chairmen of all fisheries commit tees in their regions.

The purpose of these visits is to provide details of the programme as well as to assess the mechanisms, such as salting facilities, that would be available to deal with glut situations, normally between June 15 and August 15. Co-ordinators will be contacting plants in their respective regions on a daily basis, and regular contact will be maintained even during non-glut periods. If a processor requires the service of the programme during a non-glut period, he or she is requested to contact the programme co-ordinator immediately. Mr.

Speaker, my department has operated this programme for the past eight years, a programme, I No. 46 R2667

might add, that was begun when the p~esent member fo~ Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter) was Minister of Fisheries, and over that period it has proven to be effective in working with fishermen and processors to alleviate glut situations. I am hopeful that the co-ope~ative effort which has existed in the past will prevail again this year since, in effect, it is the processor and the fishermen who benefit by being able to ~etain income which would otherwise be lost. In particular, I urge processors who anticipate a glut, or who require fish to contact their p~ogramrne co-ordinator as soon as possible.

The office locations and telephone numbers of the various co-ordinators, Mr. Speaker, are attached to this statement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I thank the bon. minister for having given me a copy of his statement p~ior to reading it in the House. Naturally, I agree with the programme. It is a good p~ogramme. The cod fishery in Newfoundland, the cod trap fishery especially, Mr. Speaker. is the big harvest and it is as important in Newfoundland as the wheat harvest would be to the Prairie Provinces.

And that is the reason why Newfoundlanders, and the government of course, must st~ive to utilize the tremendous potential that exists during the cod trap fishery. Dumping fish, L2668 June 4, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, lot of it Newfoundland, and we have done a in our time in before this p~ogramme carne into effect, is, in my view, a crime against humanity. When you realize there are people in Third World countries actually starving, begging fo~ protien, it is unacceptable, to say the least, that Newfoundlanders should ever, ever have to find themselves in a position of having to dump fish.

I think we must aim to guarantee that the fish caught by our fishermen, especially during the cod trap season, be fully utilized. I think we must aim, too, Mr. Speaker, for the day when over-the-side will not be necessary. While now we know they are necessary, it certainly does very little to provide jobs in the processing sector. I would certainly ask the minister to join with members on this side of the House in a determined effort to aim for the day when over-the-side sales will not be necessary. I believe also, Mr.

Speaker. and I think the minister shares my view, that since plants in Newfoundland operate by leave and by license of the minister and his department, it should be a condition of that license that inshore plants gear up and provide the necessary facilities to enable them to salt fish during the glut period. If that were the case, Mr. Speaker, then the problems that are created by this glut period almost every year would be lessened. We know that there is a good market for salt fish, and maybe that is one of the answers. I think some companies are doing it.

In fact, in my own district of Twillingate the new operator, Beothuck Fisheries, are gearing up now to put surplus fish under salt. Again, I would strongly recommend No. 46 R2668

to the ministe~ that the conditions fo~ licenses that that be conditions, that all in setting p~ocessing one of the fresh fish processing companies and plants put together the necessary equipment and inf~ast~cture to handle salt fish. M~. Speaker, naturally I support this p~ogramme and I wish the participants well during the forthcoming fishing season. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Before calling for Oral Questions, I have g~eat pleasure in welcoming His Excellency Jan Frederick Breman, Ambassador for the Netherlands, and Consul General Hendrick Van Pesch. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In view of his statements on public television last evening, where he said quite clearly that he gives jobs to people who politically work for him, would the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) tell the House if this particular hiring p~actice is the policy of the present government or was the minister simply stating his own personal hiring practice in order to reward political L2669 June 4, 1986 Vol XL friends? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works. MR. YOUNG: Public Mr.

Speaker, I think if the bon. gentleman had listened to my statement last night he would have found that I said that the person who worked for me politically, his son and daughter had a better chance of getting a job than the son and daughter of a person who worked against me. I did not say it was the policy of the government. It was my hi~ing p~actice. MR. TULK: Mr. Speake~. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: M~.

Speake~, the bon. gentleman made that statement last night, and I have to say to him that the constitution of this country was put in place to p~otect the political ~ights of Canadians, and I assume Newfoundlande~s are Canadians. I want to ask the minister, since in view of his statement last night on public television they have to sell their political rights to him pe~sonally in o~der to gain employment in this P~ovince, will he not now do the honourable thing, apologize to this House, apologize to the people of Newfoundland and tende~ his resignation? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hea~, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The bon ·. the Minister · of Public Works. No. 46 R2669

MR. YOUNG: ML. SpeakeL, pLobably I should answeL the thLee questions with thLee WOLds, no, no, no. But, ML. SpeakeL, no one has to vote foL me to get a job. I get letteLS of application eveLy day, 600 OL 700 of them, seeking employment. I have a letteL fLom the bon. membeL himself, asking foL a job foL someone in Seldom, OL somewheLe in his distt"ict. MR. TULK: So what! Big deal! SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no, no! MR. YOUNG: Yes, yes, yes! I get phone calls fLom the wives of hon. membeLS opposite looking foL jobs foL theiL sons. EveLy day I have someone out behind the CULtain looking foL jobs foL theiL sons. So, ML.

SpeakeL, if that is not political involvement in, looking foL jobs in the public seLVice, I would like to know, ML. SpeakeL, what is not. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HeaL, heaL! MR. TULK: A supplementaLy, ML. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementaLy, the hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: the ML. Speaker, that is exactly the point. We know that in order to get justice for ouL people we have to send letteLS to the hon. gentleman. That is paLt of what is wrong with his depaLtment.

Let me ask him in all seLiousness as to what he said on television last night: WheLe does the minister get the right to tLeat the L2670 June 4, 1986 Vol XL DepaLtment of Public WaLks as his own peLsonal kingdom or his fiefdom? Has he not bLoken the trust of the people• of this PLovince in his ministerial Lesponsibility and does he not now consideL that he should immediately go to the PLemieL and tender his resignation in view of the fact that he has taken this PLovince's taxpayeLs' money to buy his way into his own seat in HaLbour GLace? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the MinisteL of Public Works . MR . YOUNG : Mr.

SpeakeL, I must say that since 1944 the Department of Public WaLks has been seLVed well by a member fLom Harbour GLace. Not only that, but the first Minister of Public WaLks was a member for HaLbour Grace, pLobably ten years ago anotheL member fLom that area was the Minis teL of Public Works, and I am now. Mr. Speaker, I will just say this much, was it by pLodding, asking questions or interceding on behalf of his constituents, that the hon . member for Port de GLave (Mr. EffoLd), who does not do anything for his district-MR. EFFORD: I did not even ask the question! MR. YOUNG: ML.

Speaker, that a resident of his district got a job with the DepaLtment of Public WaLks last week? MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementaLy, the bon. the member for Fogo. No. 46 R2670

"' MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I would say to the hon. gentleman that I will give him a little book to read by George Orwell called Animal Farm, where he said that all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others. Is the minister's guiding principle, his philosophy in running the Department of Public Works, that all Newfoundlanders are equal but Newfoundlanders who are Tories are more equal? Is this the quiding principle of the government? Are we hearing again what we heard from the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe)? Resign, boy! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR.

YOUNG: Never mind, 'Resign, boy.' Mr. Speaker, if I had to give a job to the person the hon. member wrote me a letter about, probably he would not ask the question today. I have it under consideration and it is a possibility. MR. TULK: Do not be so foolish, boy! MR. YOUNG: Never mind! Do not be so foolish, boy! MR. TULK: You cannot buy me, boy! Blackmail, eh? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Blackmail. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! L2671 June 4, 1986 Vol XL MR. YOUNG: The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) when he was in government, Mr.

Speaker, when he wanted a job for someone in his district, when he wanted his offices repaired - he had four offices in this town - MR. BARRY: And did work in every one of them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I will do everything in my power to get a job - that is what I was elected for - for someone from my district, and I am not ashamed of it, Mr. Speaker, if they are. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Port de Grave. MR.

EFFORD: Let me say to the Minister of Public Works and Services that the gentleman who got a job in his department this week, would it have anything to do with the fact that his father is on the PC directorate in Port de Grave district? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: What I saw, Mr. Speaker, on television last night in the news was a total disgrace to any department and to any government. I would like to ask the minister in his confession on abusing his rights in the hiring practices of No. 46 R2671

his department, and especially in his confession last Friday here in this House about awarding his campaign manager rental space in Harbour Grace, is he doing the same thing with rental space in government offices all around the Province of Newfoundland? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Harbour Grace. MR. YOUNG: I challenge the bon. member - he is only new and green in this hon. House - to look up the Auditor General's Reports since I became minister. In the last four years I have not been mentioned and the Department of Public Works and Services has not been mentioned, Hr .

Speaker, as doing anything wrong. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Go on, 'Haig.' You are gone. MR. YOUNG: Never mind, "'Go on, 'Haig' ." MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. YOUNG: Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I have been asked to show favours and to do wrong things by the hon. members opposite. While I am Minister of Public Works and Services, Mr. Speaker, and should the Premier asks for my resignation, there will be nothing found wrong done in Public Works. SOME HON. MEMBERS: L2672 June 4, 1986 Vol XL Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: the Mr. Speaker, by what the hon . minister is saying, he is trying to portray the image today or trying to clear up the errors and the abuse and the total the Mafia-type way in which he is running his department. I would ask the minister to give this House some indication of how many people from his district have been hired since the election of April 1985? How many people from the district have got jobs in his department without going through the Public Service Commission? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right on, right on! SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I could not answer that for the han. gentleman except this way: All I possibly could place have been placed. But I say to the han. member he had better be careful, because one of his own constituents was in the week and had a little chat with me. And the first thing he said was, 'For God's sake, go down and tell' calling him by name, which I am not allowed to repeat, the bon. member for Port de Grave (Mr.

Efford) - 'him to sit down because he is doing harm to himself in getting up and asking foolish No. 46 R2672

questions.' MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Public Works and Services last night stated on public television across this Province that senior bureaucrats in this government were hiring family and friends and that rather than have them do that he might as well hire his own friends in the Tory party. Now, my question to the minister is this: Will the minister table examples of senior bureaucrats have abused their positions hiring family and friends substantiate the allegations made last night on television? SOME HOM.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: who by to he The . han. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, there, again, they were not watching the same programme I was watching. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: We were! We were! MR. YOUNG: No, Sir. I said the policy was when I carne into the Department of Public Works that senior civil servants had the responsibility for hiring practices, but I cannot name them because I did not know the people when I carne there. But I am telling you something, Mr.

Speaker, that the hiring practices in the Department of Public Works and Services is open and L2673 June 4, 1986 Vol XL aboveboard and I challenge . any member on the opposite side to name something I did wrong in hiring people. I know people on the other side have asked me to give jobs to relatives of theirs, their sons and their daughters. I get phone calls from their wives. I get letters from the Leader of the NDP, "Give So-and-So a job." I try to do that, Mr. Speaker, with all the power in me, Sir, but, naturally, why should I, as Minister of Public Works and Services, blacklist the people from my district?

I do not think that is fair and proper. MR. FUREY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: the han. Mr. Speaker, the minister's statements clearly showed last night that if it was wrong for the bureaucrats to do it and he made a change, it surely must be wrong for the politicians to do it because two wrongs do not make a right. Will the minister do the proper thing now and tender his resignation because of this blatant abuse of ministerial power? SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, when I do something wrong in the Department of Public Works, like other han. members when they were ministers in Cabinet, I will gladly resign if I do anything wrong. But until I do something wrong, Mr. Speaker, I do No. 46 R2673

not feel I should resign. Every now and then you will hear members resigning because they did something wrong. I did nothing wrong by the laws of this Province, Mr. Speaker, and I have no intention of resigning. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Gander. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. MR. BAKER: I yield, Mr. Baker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe, a final supplementary. MR. FUREY: Mr.

Speaker, is the Minister of Public Works silly and foolish enough to believe that changing from bureaucrats making these decisions to politicians making these decisions is an improvement, as he said last night? When is he going to remove this cloud of suspicion that he has cast over the senior bureaucrats of this Province? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: A question like that I do think deserves an answer, Speaker. MR. FUREY: not Mr. L2674 June 4, 1986 Vol XL You do not know how to answer it. MR. YOUNG: I know how to answer the question, Mr. Speaker.

I took a position. I think I was interviewed for about thirty-five minutes by the CBC. I brought, iinaugerated a policy down in the department only last Fall that no more hiring would be done unless the person which we inaugurated could pass a course in security offered by the College of Trades and Technology. MR. EFFORD: You have been hiring who you like for years. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, tell the bon. gentleman to stay quite. I thought he was cooling down.

Johnny should go in and talk to his people in Shearstown and I would not receive any more letters from the bon. member's district. MR. EFFORD: Table them! Table them! MR. YOUNG: I cannot table the letters. I cannot table them, Mr. Speaker, because they are personal letters and I have no intention of tabling them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: , Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. YOUNG: Let the hon. gentleman come behind the curtain and I will name .some No. 46 R2674

of the people the hon. gentleman is intact with. Mr. Speaker, I think it is just a hullabaloo about nothing. I am sure that I will receive many letters of thanks from the members opposite when their sons, their daughters or their relatives get jobs for the Summer. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: My question is also for the Minister of Public Works. The Minister of Public Works is also responsible for the Public Service Commission. I believe in the Public Service Commission Act,

Section 14 says that people who are hired for the Public Service of this Province should be hired on the basis of merit. Since you are the minister responsible for this department my question to you is this. Bearing in mind that you are supposed to uphold the principle of merit hiring, how can you reconcile · that with your actions on television last night, and should you not feel that you should resign because you have contravened all the basic principles of the department you are responsible for? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR.

YOUNG: I would like to tell the hon. gentleman that I will resign from my seat, not after the next election like the hon. gentleman who will be defeated, but I will resign when I feel it fit, because the people of Harbour Grace are going to elect me forever more on L2675 June 4, 1986 Vol XL while I want to run. MR. PATTERSON: How many elections have you won now? MR. YOUNG: I will challenge any member on the other side to report winning five elections without a defeat, not switch and come back and stuff like that. To answer the han. gentleman's question, I made statements on temporary employment. MR. TULK: When?

MR. YOUNG: Last night. MR. TULK: How do you conduct your office? That is the question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. YOUNG: Never mind about my office. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask hon. members on my right to please give the minister an opportunity to answer. The .hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, during my estimates, the Chairman of the Public Service Commission was sitting over where the hon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) is sitting now.

I challenged the Chairman of the Public Service Commission, when there was a question asked me, to get up and say if I ever wrote him a letter, or if he ever received a phone call from me No. 46 R2675

since I have been Ministe~ of Public Wo~ks asking fo~ a pe~son to get a position. It is all done open and aboveboa~d, I have nothing to do with it, and that is it, M~. Speake~. MR. FENWICK: What about tempo~a~y positions? MR. YOUNG: Tempo~a~y positions? M~. Speake~, I will be a~ound fo~ a long, long time and so will tempo~a~y positions. MR. FENWICK: A supplementa~y on the same topic, and it is to the P~emie~. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. membe~ fo~ Menihek. MR. FENWICK: M~. P~emie~ you have hea~d what he said. Do you condone his actions and do you condone those actions fo~ othe~ ministe~s of the Crown? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the P~emie~. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as I unde~stand it the membe~ for Menihek is alleging that the~e have been hirings of temporary employees who do not have the me~i t or cannot do the job, and that is not true on tempo~ary employment. MR. FENWICK: What about merit? PREMIER PECKFORD: Merit has a very important part to play in it, obviously.

If the bon. member is saying now that there we~e people hired in the Public Se~vice of Newfoundland on tempo~ary employment who do not have the qualifications, he bette~ L2676 June 4, 1986 Vol XL put his money where his mouth is and put on the table of this House some examples of people who have been hi~ed who do not have the qualifications fo~ that position. I do not know of any. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the membe~ fo~ Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. attitude of the potentate Ha~bour Grace is disgusting regards to political patronage. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BAKER: The f~om with I thought, M~. Speake~, we we~e bad enough off with the Ministe~ of Transpo~tation and the Ministe~ of Municipal Affairs. I would like to ask the minister a di~ect question, a very simple di~ect question. He admitted last night to hiring people on the basis of political pat~onage, political wo~k done fo~ him. How many jobs did he pass out in the last three months in this way? How many people f~om his district have been hired he~e in tempo~ary jobs in the last three months? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Ministe~ of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, just a little p~eamble to my answer. I won de~ after the last election did the bon. membe~ fo~ Windsor - Buchans (M~. Flight) get his job th~ough political patronage? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. No. 46 R2676

MR. YOUNG: It was not done patronage? Oh, no. MR. FUREY: Answer the question . -MR. YOUNG: by political None of that! Mr. Speaker, when a people have temporary employment, they are always called back through the rules and regulations of the union, they are called back on seniority, Mr. Speaker. I presume that everyone who has seniority will be called back through the Summmer. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Gander, a supplementary. MR.

BAKER: In relation to that, the minister is trying to deflect the questions onto all kinds of nonsense that has nothing to do with this situation, with him hiring his friends out in Harbour Grace, or in that district, to come in here and work purely on the basis of politics and nothing else. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BAKER: Now, I would like to ask the minister another related question. In the next couple of months, how many jobs that could be done by students is he handing out to his own private Tory employment agency? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: That is purely speculative.

L2677 June 4, 1986 Vol XL MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, there is in the Department of Public Works an open vote, and we also hire some students. I think there are about thirty-five to forty positions for students now, Mr. Speaker, and they are all over the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I am sure that these thirty-five or forty positions are not being filled by people from the district of Harbour Grace. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have been around for about fifteen years and I will probably be around for another fifteen, and it is my decision when I decide to quit. But, Mr. Speaker, I assure the bon. gentleman that when I came in here in 1972 one of my objectives, one of my commitments was that I would look after the people from my district. Mr. Speaker, I am doing that, like the hon. members opposite who write letters on behalf of constituents from their districts looking for jobs. That is going to go on until eternity after I am dead and gone. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Stephenville. MR.

K. AYLWARD: I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works also. After the statement that he made last night, would he tell this House whether the young people of this Province who are No. 46 R2677

out searching for work, would their chances be enhanced if they had a Tory membership card? Would their chances be enhanced for employment for the future? Can you get up and answer that question after what you said last night? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I answered a specific question last night. Mr. Speaker, if some student has earned temporary work over in Stephenville, do you think I know if these gentlemen are carrying a Tory card or a Liberal card or how they voted? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Corruption! Corruption! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Many questions are being put to the hon. Minister of Public Works, but he does not have a chance to answer them. So I would ask for some silence at least when he is answering. The hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, it is quite a job. When someone wants to be hired for the vocational schools around the Stephenville area, I do not know these people. But, Mr. Speaker, I guess one of the greatest reasons a lot of Tories are being hired in this Province is because there are more Tories, and I cannot help that, Mr. Speaker. If the people want to vote for this government I cannot help that, Mr.

Speaker. And that is probably why there are L2678 June 4, 1986 Vol XL more Tories being hired Liberals. MR. FLIGHT: He l,lad insulted Newfoundlander. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Leader of Opposition. MR. BARRY : than every the Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Premier. I thought that he, like, I would say, most of us in this House, got into politics in 1971 and 1972, to do away with the system that is now being highlighted by the actions of the Minister of Public Works. MR. PATTERSON: You were the government. MR. YOUNG: worst one in You were the worst offender.

That is why we brought in those rules and regulations . MR. BARRY: I notice the Premier has had his back turned to the minister all throughout Question Period. Would the Premier indicate whether the statements by the Minister of Public Works and Services, are statements of government policy? Does the Premier support the statements made by this minister? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PATTERSON: We should table the list you put in when you were over ·here. MR. SPEAKER: No. 46 R2678

The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, when I am accused that the way I sit in my seat casts some reflection on a minister in the ministry, it is getting pretty low. MR. SIMMONS: You were keeping an eye on 'Ron Dawe'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: No, I think it is more to keep an eye on the member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) over there. From my experience with the bon. member and the people of Newfoundland's experience with him, you have to keep an eye on him. MR. SIMMONS: -~ That was the last good experience you had. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, sure.

I wish the hon. member would do what I asked him to do a few years ago when we got into a political tussle here, when I said why does he not resign his seat and I will resign mine and come out where the people know him best and see who will win. But he never took me up on it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: The stories are still circulating out there. So that is enough of the member for Fortune-Hermitage. He has already been dealt with by other people. MR. FUREY: Answer the question! L2679 June 4, 1986 Vol XL MR. SIMMONS: Smear all you want to. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER PECKFORD: If the cap fits, wear it. Mr. Speaker, in 1972 - MR. SIMMONS: I will take you on next time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the bon. member for Fortune-Hermitage, I will bow if he will get up and say he is going to take me on the next time in Green Bay. I will do it today if he wants. MR. SIMMONS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I already took him on in Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir and won when I managed the campaign. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

PREMIER PECKFORD: He is backing down now, Mr. Speaker, he is backing down. You will not take up the challenge, will you? You will not take it on head to head, will you? Not where you are known best, 'Roger'. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: You would not dare, where the No. 46 R2679

people know you best, Mr. Speaker, The hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage will not do it where the people know him best. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: He will run all around the Province where the people know him least to get elected, Mr. Speaker. He will not run where he is known best. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: You cam problem minister not deal squirm all you want. The is that idiot of a over there and you will with that. MR. YOUNG: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR.

YOUNG: I would like for the hon. member to withdraw that. I assure the hon. gentleman that I am no idiot. I know the rules and regulations and the criminal law a lot better than the hon. gentleman. I would ask him to withdraw that remark. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I would ask the hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage to withdraw that term he referred to. MR. YOUNG: No, no, Mr. Speaker, point of order. Does L2680 June 4, 1986 on another the hon. Vol XL gentleman thinks that I am idiot enough to accept the way that he withdrew that, by waving his hand? I ask him to stand in his place and to withdraw it.

MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SP EA KER: The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, he is not an idiot, it is his abuse of power we are questioning today. And that is what the Premier is trying to skirt around but we are not going to let him. He can make all the personal attacks he wants. MR. YOUNG: I was not asked to resign. MR. SIMMONS: hat minister has abused his power and we are going to zero in until he admits it. MR. DAWE: He did not withdraw, Mr. Speaker. MR. YOUNG: I would ask him to withdraw, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: I understood the hon. member withdrew the term that the hon. minister was an idiot. That is my understanding. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I will continue answer the question, but member never even stood in to the his No. 46 R2680

place to withdraw. Is a member supposed to stand in his place and say, 'I withdraw,' Mr. Speaker? MR. BARRY: There is no point of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: I am on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Now this is very serious for the conduct of this House. MR. SIMMONS: The Premier is stalling. I withdrew. I will now say again for his hearing, I withdraw. I withdraw. Now answer the question. PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, Mr. Speaker, as to say before I interrupted by the Fortune - Hermitage - MR. SIMMS: I was trying was rudely member for 'Leo' told him to sit down. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, 'Leo' told him to sit down.

Through the 1970s a new system was put in place in this Province through the Public Service Commission. Now people who are applying for permanent positions are interviewed, the Public Service Commission makes a recommendation, and 99.9 times out of 100 the person who comes in number one is selected and the ministers know nothing about it. It is done by the head of the department, who is the Deputy Minister. That is the new system that is in place.

If, in fact, somebody other than number one is chosen, because there are usually three names come in and sometimes they are very close, and it goes to number two or number three, say it went to number three, number two and number one can grieve. There is a grievance procedure L2681 June 4, 1986 Vol XL there before an independent panel, nothing to do with the ministers, nothing to do with the Premier. That independent panel, outside of government altogether, will decide whether in fact an injustice was done. If there was, then these other people, one and two, have to be hired.

Now that is a pretty, pretty fair system, Mr. Speaker. That is as good a system as they have anywhere in Canada for hiring people. So when we start talking about the hiring practices of this government and the system that is in place for the vast majority of the people who work for the government, then that is the system. It is a fair, democratic system for hiring people for the various departments of this government. That was not done before 1972, or whatever year it was after that, that the Public Service Commission was reorganized.

In the days of the Liberal Party you could not even get a liquor license unless you belonged to that political party. That has been changed, Hr. Speaker. Everybody knows the fear that we lived under during those years. That is no longer so. Then when it comes to hiring, there are thousands and thousands of people who are looking for temporary work and all of the ministries hire on so many students. The applications come into the departments and then people are hired on the basis of seniority, sometimes because they worked there other years, on the basis of merit, all of it.

All of it goes into the mix in the hiring. The Leader of the Opposition asked about the policy of this government. The policy of this government, through the Public No. 46 R2681

Service Commission for permanent employment in this government, is as good as any hiring system and as fair as any hiring system in Canada, if not the world. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BAR RY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Public Works for this Province has stated publicly and he has repeated in this House that the sons and daughters of his political friends have a better chance of getting employment than the sons and daughters of his political opponents. MR. YOUNG: No, I did not. MR. TULK: Yes, you did. MR. J.

CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE AK ER: A point of order, the han. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: As a member of this House I have had occasion to seek jobs for constituents. I have no idea whether those constituents were PC, Liberal or some other strange party, of which there is one representative in this House. If a constituent comes to me and asks me to intercede for a job and I can do anything for him, I will do it and I think that is a very fair and reasonable practice. I found L2682 June 4, 1986 Vol XL the minister to co-operative. MR. YOUNG: Further to that point Mr. Speaker.

MR. SIMMONS: be very of order, Mr. Speaker, this is an abuse. MR. YOUNG: Never mind abuse. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, is there a point of order there? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. YOUNG: I am on a point of order. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must rule there is no point of order. The han. the Leader of Opposition. MR. BARRY: the Mr. Speaker, would the Premier indicate does he agree with the practice of hiring the sons and daughters of one's political friends before the sons and daughters of one's political opponents? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, the other thing about this whole line of questioning, especially from the Leader of the Opposition as it relates to temporary employment, is he is practicing the most vilest kind hypocrisy ever you saw practiced in this Province. Because the No. 46 R2682

Leader of the Opposition, I mean, rou have your double standard - MR. BARRY: Go ahead, go ahead! PREMIER PECKFORD: - I have seen the Leader of the Opposition in caucus and Cabinet fighting to make sure somebody got that temporary job from your constituency or from your friends. MR. BARRY: Not true. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: It is true. It true. I was present. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: is true. present. It is I was He got jobs for his friends. Now he stands up as the Almighty. This is temporary employment. MR. BARRY: Answer the question, now! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Public Works and Services has said, there are many things, many factors that go in to the hiring practice for the Summer because there are ten times as many names as there are positions to be filled. All of the factors, including merit and seniority, go into the decision, Mr. Speaker. We have had members from the opposite side asking the Minister of Public Works and Services, the minister responsible for parks, L2683 June 4, 1986 Vol XL 'Just hire my daughter.,- son, hire my MR. BARRY: Answer the question.

PREMIER PECKFORD: It is that party over there that is asking these questions. MR. BARRY: Answer the question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: It is not a question of whether it is merit of a question of whether it is seniority; they are students, therefore they should be hired on in this park or in that park. But we go by all of the factors. There is no one single factor, Mr. Speaker, there · is a range of factors, there is number of factors that go into how people are hired for Summer or temporary employment.

As it relates to permanent employment, as I have said, that is done by the Public Service Commission, completely separate from government altogether. MR. BARRY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. YOUNG: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Will the Premier agree to set up an independent inquiry - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! A point Minister to order, the hon. of Public Works the and No. 46 R2683

Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr . Speaker, the previous question asked by the Leader of the Opposition was misleading because of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that I said on television last night that students in my district have a better chance of getting a job - not all over the Province, that was not the policy - if his father supported me than the person whose father supported the other party. Now, that was my district, Mr. Speaker, and I will try to - MR. FLIGHT: Well, so what! MR. YOUNG: So what! Yes, so what! Did you not come over and asked me to rent space from you?

Have you not been out behind the curtain many times looking for space? Mr. Speaker, if that is not lobbying I would like to know what is. Why can my constituents not lobby for a job, Mr. Speaker? . MR. BARRY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the bon. the Leader of the Oppostion. HR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we have seen the Minister of Public Works of this Province admit that he hires the sons and daughters of his political friends before the sons and daughters of his political opponents.

We have seen him state that he also gives preference in the hiring of his department to individuals from his own district. Mr. Speaker, it is incumbent upon the Premier of this Province to indicate how these L2684 June 4, 1986 Vol XL statements are consistent with hiring on the basis of merit. The Premier of this Province should agree to set up an independent enquiry and ask that minister to resign while that independent enquiry determines whether in fact it is proper for a minister to engage in this type of discriminatory hiring practice in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

TULK: Get him out, 'Brian'. Do the right thing, 'Brian.' MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order, just a difference of opinion between two han. members. I must announce now that Oral Question time has elapsed. MR. BARRY : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A point of order, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Does the Premier of this Province have the courage to appoint an independent enquiry to look into the conduct of this minister? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: And does he have the honesty to indicate whether he supports the minister? MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! No. 46 R2684

SOME HON. MEMBERS: · Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Does he have the guts, - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: - Mr. Speaker, does he have the courage to indicate whether he supports the minister - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: in his discriminatory hiring practices? MR. SPEAKER: Order, J>lease! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Has his ideals from 1972 gone out the window? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!! Order, please! Now I find it very difficult to believe that the bon. the Leader of the Opposition did not hear me shouting on a number of occasions. MR.

BARRY: There was too much shouting from that side, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I was asking for order at the time. There is no point of order. MR. BARRY: You do not have the courage L2685 June 4, 1986 Vol XL (inaudible.) SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: An obvious point of privilege, Mr. Speaker.

When Your Honour gets on his feet and asks for order, people are supposed to sit down. We saw the Leader of the Opposition there and you could see the spite and the jealousy and the rage coming out when he looks at the hon. the Premier when he was on his feet. I do not really think that this House should be subjected, and the rules, and Your Honour should be disrespected because of the obvious jealousy, rage, pettiness and the lack of self-control of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: No. 46 R2685

Order, please! I am assuming the hon. the Leader of the Opposition did not hear me. MR. BARRY: To that point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, while it is customary to permit members of this House to conunent on matters of privilege, the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) has gotten up and, I do not know, maybe I fail to hear again because of the clamour in the backbenches on that side but I do not think the Government House Leader referred at any point in time to the yelling and the screaming and the hollering that was going on in the backbenches on his own side of the House, Mr. Speaker.

Now, as Government House Leader, and I underline Leader, his responsibility, Mr. Speaker, is to control the mob on that side of the .House and to make sure that when Your Honour rises in his seat, members on this side of the House can hear Your Honour and also to make sure that when members on this side stand up legitimately, under the rules of this House, they are not interrupted by members on that side and they are permitted to make their points, Mr. Speaker. What we have seen here today is a concerted attempt by all members opposite to try and protect that sad excuse for a Minister of Public Works, Mr.

Speaker, that sad and sorry excuse for a minister who has, once again, embarrassed many of his colleagues, Mr. Speaker, but as we see very clearly, he has not embarrassed the Premier because the Premier has now adopted the same standard of political ·morality as the member for Harbour L2686 June 4, 1986 Vol XL Grace. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I just have one conunent. If the han. Leader of the Opposition were as good a Leader of the Opposition as the Minister of Public Works (Mr.

Young) is Minister of Public Works in the way that he has executed his duties since he has been here and all you have to do is compare the reports of the Auditor General during this administration when he was Minister of Public Works to other administrations - then the hon. gentleman would be going somewhere. What I am asking, Mr.

Speaker, is for the han. gentleman who is Leader of the Opposition in this House, of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, to try to at least exercise a little bit more stability and control when he gets up and not allow his own personal vindictiveness to get involved in the discharge of his official job. MR. TULI<: To that point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): I have heard quite enough on that point of privilege. All I would like to say is that things have gotten a bit out of control and I think we should now move on. There is not any prima facie case of breach of privilege. No. 46 R2686

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: We know what the hon. gentleman is trying to do over there and it is something that he cannot condone. He cannot condone the actions of that minister and his statement on television last night. That is what he is trying to do! He should be advising the Premier to ask for his resignation rather than trying to cover up for him! Let me say to the hon. gentleman, that when it comes to throwing personal invective across this House, he is the master at it!

I would ask him to be a gentleman and not because he has such hatred and bile for the Leader of the Opposition does he have to engage in the kind of tactics he is engaged in now. I would ask him to be a gentleman and stand up and withdraw the phrase that he just used, 'personal vindictiveness', and then go out and advise the Premier to do the right thing, to ask the Minister of Public Works, who has stated on television that the department is corrupt, that there are corrupt practices going on, on the basis that if you are a Tory you get hired, if you are not, you do not.

Do the right thing, stand up and apologize and then go out and give some good advice to the Premier. MR. MARSHALL: To that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: L2687 June 4, 1986 Vol XL I shall not respond because the last few people to speak are obviously sick and have personal problems. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

BARRY: In making the allegation that my comments were based on personal vindictiveness, the Government House Leader, who is supposed to be observing the rules, has broken the rules by imputing a motive and I ask that he be requested to withdraw those specific words, 'personal vindictiveness'. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I am going to check into that and I will rule on that matter tomorrow. MR. EFFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr.

Speaker, in the questions asked by the Opposition to the Minister of Public Works this afternoon, the minister stated very clearly, in his answer, that he had absolutely no interference with the Public Service Commission on the hiring practices of anybody within his department. The point I want to make, Mr. Speaker, is that in this House on last Friday he confessed very openly to the No. 46 R2687

hiring practices related to his executive assistant's son in the park over in Trinity - Bay de Verde. Also, Mr. Speaker, they have been talking about students. The other point, Mr. Speaker, that I want to make refers to temporary things . I want this to be cleared up. The Minister of Public Works has been talking about temporary jobs. Three elections ago, Mr. Speaker, he hired people from his district and they are still working here today. MR. TULK: So he is information. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! giving misleading The hon. member is not making a point of order. MR. EFFORD: He misled the House Mr. Speaker! MR.

FUREY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for st. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, a couple of times here today in this half hour during Question Period we put some very serious questions to the Minister of Public Works and he did not respond by corning clean with the facts he stated the night before on public television, talking, Mr. Speaker, about political friends - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, my point of order is L2688 June 4, 1986 Vol XL this. MR. SPEAKER: That is no point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Sit down! MR. FUREY: Mr.

Speaker, my point of order is this: The minister did not come clean with answers with respect to his political Tory friends. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. FUREY: His attack upon the bureaucracy, like that of the Minister of Transportation and the Minister of Municipal Affairs, is ridiculous. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That is no point of order. I think the hon. member must know that it is not. It certainly is not a point of order. Notices of Motion MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to give notice of a resolution or a motion which I would like to present to this House. Mr. Speaker, when the resolution has been read, I will be seeking the concurrence of all members in this House to deal with this resolution immediately Mo. 46 R2688

because of its . importance. I would suggest that after the resolution is read that probably another member on our side would speak for five minutes, I will speak for about five minutes, and two members of the Opposition speak for five minutes each. And certainly I would like to see the bon. the member for Menihek also have five minutes to speak on this resolution. Probably we could deal with this today. · Mr. Speaker, the resolution is: · "WHEREAS the Goose Bay Air Base is being considered for a NATO Tactical Training Centre; and

WHEREAS Canada is competing with Turkey for the establishment of the NATO Tactical Training Centre; and

WHEREAS the health, environmental and wildlife concerns are being addressed by both the Government of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador; and

WHEREAS the vast majority of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians support the establishment of the NATO Tactical Training Centre in Goose Bay; and

WHEREAS the establishment of the NATO Tactical Training Centre would be of great economic benefit for Newfoundland and Labrador;

BE IT RESOLVED that this House of Assembly go on record as unanimously supporting Canada's efforts to attract the NATO Tactical Training Centre to Goose Bay, Labrador; and

BE IT RESOLVED FURTHER that this House of Assembly explore the possibility of an all party delegation to visit several of the L2689 June 4, 1986 Vol XL NATO Countries to give our support for the establishment of the NATO Tactical Training Centre at Goose Bay/Labrador and to explain the advantages of having this training centre in Canada and to alleviate any of the concerns which NATO Countries might have in the establishment of this base. Mr. Speaker, I seek the leave of all members of the House to deal with this resolution today so that we will not have to do it tomorrow.

I can give notice and we can do it the usual way, but, Mr. Speaker, if I have leave to continue for another couple of minutes, then, maybe - SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! MR. R. AYLWARD: By leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a look at the resolution. It is the first I have heard of the resolution. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, at the same time, I think this is a very important resolution and it should be properly debated.

What I would suggest to the House is that rather than deal with it now and take out the time of the - No. 46 R2689

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! MR. FENWI CK: Hold on now. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! It has just gone 4:00 o'clock. So if we are not going to get on with Private Members' Day, it will be by leave of the whole House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : By leave! By leave! MR. FENWICK: I would be willing, Mr. Speaker, to see this as the first item of business when Orders of the Day are called tomorrow so that I would have a chance to look at it overnight. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, it is a fair and reasonable request so I would deny leave until tomorrow). MR.

BARRY: ··Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY : To the very reasonable request of the minister, I think it should be understood that there has been consultation originally between the Opposition House Leader (Mr. Tulk) and the Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Ottenheimer) with reapect to the development of a resolution along L2690 June 4, 1986 Vol XL these lines which the minister is now presenting.

We wholeheartedly agree and consent to leave, because I think the point that should be made clear here is we are dealing with hundreds if not thousands of jobs which could be lost by not acting now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing complicated about the resolution. There is nothing that has not been made very public before in terms of the issue.

We all know that the question is will this House go on record as unanimously supporting the fight to encourage NATO to locate their training center in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, recognizing that there have been concerns raised by the Native people whom we have to be very sensitive to in terms of environmental assessment, and we have to work very closely with them to make sure their traditional lifestyle is preserved, but the real question, Mr. Speaker, and this , I suspect, is what has the member for Menihek in a quandary, the real question is where do you stand as a party on this issue? SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, it has been indicated, and I think the member for Menihek has indicated that he has not yet received direction from his party and that, in fact, some of his campaign workers, who are a very small minority in Labrador, have indicated disapproval with the move. The member is, unfortunately and regrettably, putting his own No. 46 R2690

political fortunes ahead of jobs for Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, all I can say is that it is going to be a very sad thing for this Province if we lose this center because the member for Menihek has delayed passage of this unanimous resolution and delayed the opportunity of an all-party delegation. It would have to be the member for Menihek going on that delegation as the representative of his party.

If his att~mpt to delay this resolution would delay the opportunity of members of this House to go over and use their good offices and their best efforts to get these jobs for this Province, and I would ask the member for Menihek to reconsider and give his leave today, this afternoon, so that we can pass this resolution and get on with the job. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Menihek. MR. R. AYLWARD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, raised by the Leader of the Opposition. MR. FENWICK: I am speaking to the point of order as well, Mr. Speaker. MR. R.

AYLWARD: To . that point or order raised by the bon. - L2691 June 4, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: I was not aware that it was a point of order. The han. the Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: Minister and of Rural, Northern we the all NATO Mr. Speaker, I guess remember that one of ambassadors were here today and that is reasons I would like dealt with today. in the House one of the to have this SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr.

Speaker, the ambassador for the Netherlands was here today, we have a large group of NATO ambassadors now touring Canada, North Bay and Cold Lake, and I would like to get this dealt with today so that the word can get out from this House of Assembly to all of these NATO ambassadors, Mr. Speaker, that the whole House in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, representing all the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, are very supportive of attracting this NATO base to Goose Bay. That is the main reason why this should be dealt with now, today, so that the word gets out. Mr.

Speaker, there is only a small minority of even Innu people who are opposed to this. Ninety-nine point nine per cent of the people in this Province would like to see that base established in this Province, and word should go out from this House of Assembly that the elected representatives of the people also support it, Mr. Speaker. . SOME HON. MEMBERS: · Hear, hear! No. 46 R2691

MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As it has become quite obvious to the House, the government and the official Opposition are in support of the approach we are taking here. I am one of the four members for Labrador and it disturbs me no end that one of my colleagues, from one of the fout"' seats in Labradot"', has enough nerve to stand up in this House and deny the economic future of my district and perhaps his distt"'ict, too, and the economic future of the whole Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Heat"', bear! MR.

KELLAND: I can tell the hon. membet"', as he well knows, that a minimum of 95 per cent of the people in his own district support the establishment of a NATO training centt"'e in Happy Valley - .Goose Bay. There is no question about it. In fact, the elected t"'epresentatives at the municipal level in his district - ·MR. SIMMS: Except fot"' one. MR. KELLAND: - all but one, who is a membet"' and a well-known member of the membet"'' s pat"'ty, have all voted in favout"'.

We have all kinds of organizations in Labt"'ador which at"'e native bot"'n Labradorians who have come out in suppot"'t of it: The Combined Councils of Labt"'ador, fat"' example, the LIA, the Inuit, who have kept an open mind, the L2692 June 4, 1986 Vol XL Labt"'adot"' Metis Association and, I guarantee you, 95 plus per cent in ·Naskaupi district are in favout"' of it. Now, I challenge yout"' t"'ight to get up and deny us the right to an economic future, and I ask you to reconsider and give your leave to this House to have the thing discussed today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, heat"'! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mt"'. Speaker, the question today is not whethet"' at"' not we endot"'se this resolution, the question being asked of me is do I give leave to the House to suspend the ot"'ders of business to deal with the resolution that I have just been handed by the ministet"'. Now, since it is obvious that the official Opposition and the government side have been spending some time preparing the resolution, and it is obvious that the Ministet"' of Intergovet"'nmental Affait"'s (Mt"'. Ottenheimet"'), when the subject was first brought up by the member for Naskaupi (Mr.

Kelland) indicated that there would be people sitting down to prepare a three-party resolution on it, and that has not been done, all I am saying to you, Mr. Speaker, is that it is appt"'opriate, I think, to at least read the resolution and look at it closely before we debate it. That is all I am asking for. What I Speaker, is that No. 46 am saying to you, Mr. is that if the argument the decision has to be R2692

made today instead of tomorrow, I am not sure where the urgency comes into it. MR. R. AYLWARD: The decision was made six months ago. MR. FENWICK: Well, if it was made six months ago, then it is up to the government to bring it in. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! • MR.. GILBERT: His handlers have what to say, yet. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: not told him I must also say, Mr. Speaker, that this House of Assembly is the chief debating forum on public issues in this Province.

What is being suggested here is that a billion dollar project that has a severe impact on the entire Province, and very much so on Labrador, is going to be dispensed with by a resolution that we get one minute before we have to debate it and five minutes of ·debate on it. Mr. Speaker, I can also say to you that I have spent a lot of time looking at the issue from both sides, and looking at the concerns on it, and I have a number of concerns on it.

But my decision today is that if the minister really wanted this to go through without political tricks and he had come to me this morning and given it to me, I would be in a position to say, 'Yes, let us have leave and let us debate it'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: L2693 June 4, 1986 Vol XL Shame! Shame! Shame! MR. FENWICK: But since he has not done that, I do not think it appropriate to debate it today. I am, however, as a representative of my party, willing to give leave to have this as the first item of business after the orders of business are called tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the President of the Council. MR.. MARSHALL: I just want to say just one word to the bon. gentleman and it is this: The bon. gentleman mentioned about the Ambassador to the Netherlands and we have met with him today. This is not a difficult resolution, so let there be no debate about that or no mistake about it.

The fact of the matter is, by his very questioning before this House the immediate entertainment of a resolution that has immediate impact on such a large number of people in this Province, all of the Province but Labrador in particular, he is doing a disservice to his constituents and the people of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: That is right! Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this is serious business.

We know an ad appeared in the paper this weekend signed by a number of people with all sorts of good intentions, who want to lead the lives of other people, and I have no doubt about the theoretical intentions of those people who are not up there, who No. 46 R2693

happen to have been candidates of the hon. gentleman's party in the last election. That is probably the reason why he has hesitation, because he has to respond to a party. I have to say to the bon. gentleman that I am surprised .

Any other person in Newfoundland would have the interest of Newfoundland and Labrador at heart knowing the situation, knowing Goose Bay is a military center up there, that it has been in a depressed condition for a number of years, that this is the first ·real ray of hope for a long term future for that area, and the hon. gentleman is exercising his position as the member for Menihek now to show there is hesitation in this · House to adopt this resolution.

This resolution is purely and simply one that says, 'The elected representatives of the people of Newfoundland on behalf of the people of Newfoundland unanimously endorse the establishment of a NATO base at Goose Bay. Now, I see the hon. gentleman is reading it over. The bon. gentleman should understand it, it is a simple resolution. The bon. · the minister has led it in, he has made a very simple -request; there will be two speakers from the government side and two from the Opposition.

But we even go further, we say, 'Alright, let the hon. gentleman speak for five minutes. ' So there will be three from the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, this is most regrettable. Surely the bon. gentleman is going to reconsider his leave, allow this to be debated and, I might say, partake in the debate, and now, because he L2694 June 4, 1986 Vol XL has made these words, vote on the resolution itself. It is non-partisan. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage . MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker - MR. FENWICK: Mr.

Speaker, if I can preclude any more of the beating around here. MR. SIMMONS: No, I have been recognized. If the member wants to give leave I will yield. MR. FENWICK: Could you yield to me just for a second? MR. SIMMONS: If the member is giving leave I will yield. MR. FENWICK: Now, Mr. Speaker, if I may - MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage has been recognized. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will yield to the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) if he will give leave to introduce the resolution.

Because, I say to him, this is not a complicated matter, you are either for this or you are agin it. It is not something that exactly just came out of the blue, because the No. 46 R2694

Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. R. Aylward) decided he was going to wade in here whether a resolution is surpris~ everybody, this issue I heard on the radio a few days ago. This has been talked about by some people. I hear some people in Labrador actually heard about it. As a matter of fact, with his preoccupation with such great economic boon to the economy as the encyclopedia, I am surprised he was not in with the same resolution himself several weeks ago. So, Mr. Speaker, the resolution is here and it is very clear.

If it is time he wants to make a phone call, we are stalling on points of privilege so he can go out and call Tom and call the boys. MR. EFFORD: Call who? Call who? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Or, Mr. Speaker, if he is squirming a bit, let him just absent himself from the House. There are all kinds of excuses; the washroom is there, the coffee mug is in there. Go out of the House for a moment and let the record show he did not give leave, that it was done in his absence, that it was sneaked through. I am prepared to sneak, Mr. Speaker, on this one.

I am prepared on this particular issue to see something - MR. BARRY: His party is meeting tomorrow. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ah, ha!! MR. SIMMONS: The leader says his party is L2695 June 4, 1986 Vol XL meeting tomorrow, if the telephone booth is available. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, it is a very simple, straightforward issue, you are either for it or agin it, and all we are asking the member to do is allow leave to have the matter debated tomorrow - today, he says tomorrow.

I say to him the phone call that he wants to make can be made while the other four people are speaking and he will know where he stands on this issue, he will know what his instructions are by the time the twenty minutes have elapsed in terms of the other speakers. Now, Mr. Speaker, I realize that he has not been off the bus or the train or whatever it was long, but he has been here long enough to know that this issue seizes the Newfoundland people, it seizes the people of Labrador and it seizes them for very good reasons. MR. HODDER: We will recess for five minutes to let him make his call. MR.

SIMMONS: I have given him twenty minutes, I say to the gentleman for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder). We will speak, we will allow him to go last to wrap up the debate. While the other four are speaking, he can be on the phone talking to his handlers, getting his instructions and we will dispense with this matter today. I appeal to him to allow it to go through today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: No. 46 R2695

Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, to the request for leave, quite frankly I think that this is a trap, obviously SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: - put forward by the government and the official Opposition. But, Mr. Speaker, there is some substance to the arguments that have been made. Obviously this question has arisen, I have looked at it and I have consulted widely with members of my party. This weekend we do have a convention at which the policy of our party is established.

I would have preferred that the party itself debate the issue and establish a policy at that time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FENWICK: Come on now! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, the argument put forward by the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. R. Aylward), that he wants a· clear signal now to the NATO ambassadors, has a degree of validity to it and it is one of the few arguments that has had any validity in this particular debate. So, Mr.

Speaker, what ' I am prepared to say is that if that is what is requested of me, in about a half an hour's time, if he L2696 June 4, 1986 Vol XL wishes to start the debate now and have the vote at about 4:45 o'clock, I will have had a chance to look at it, to gather my thoughts, to make my comments on it, and I will be perfectly willing to vote on it in this House . I will not absent myself in any manner. So , Mr .

Speaker, under those circumstances, I just want a few minutes to have a look at it, to prepare my own comments that I wish to enter into the record, and at the end of that time period I will be perfectly happy to vote on the resolution itself . As long as it is about a half hour's debate, at the end of that time you can put the question and we can vote on it. MR. MARSHALL: It is my understanding that the bon. gentleman is now giving leave. MR. FENWICK: Yes, I am. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I can say the two members who wi 11 be speaking from the government side are the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development and the bon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Agricultural Development. MR. TULK: Minister and of Rural, Northern Mr. Speaker, let us get the thing clear here. I think the two people we would want to speak on this side - it is ten minutes each, is it? No. 46 R2696

MR. MARSHALL: He said five minutes each. MR. TULK: Five. Okay. MR. MARSHALL: Five and five. MR. TULK: We would like for the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to speak and, of course, the member for Naskaupi. MR. MARSHALL: Okay, that is fine. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: and of Rural, Northern Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I guess most people involved have a copy of this resolution now, so it is not necessary for me to read it again. I do want to emphasize the fact that I do appreciate leave being given by all members of the House of Assembly.

It is a very important issue, Mr. Speaker. It is extremely important to the Province. It is for an economic activity, no doubt. From my last couple of visits to the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area, and from conversations with a lot of people from the Labrador area, it is important, yes, for us to get this message out to the NATO ambassadors while they are here. The feeling, I guess, that exists or is starting to prevail in the Happy Valley - Goose B;:1y area and some other parts of Labrador is that the elected representatives were not doing enough to encourage this base.

L2697 June 4, 1986 Vol XL We were doing it, Mr. Speaker, behind the scenes. The Department of Intergovernmental Affairs, the Department of Environment and even the hon. the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland), had briefings from my department. There was an offer of briefings to the hon. the member for Menihek from my department. Unfortunately, we could not get the timing set up, but this is still going to be in place.

But the people in Happy Valley - Goose Bay and Labrador generally want to see something up front, something that the elected members are doing, something the House of Assembly is doing so that they get a feeling that we are really trying to bring this NATO Tactical Training Centre to Goose Bay. We have now, as they are aware and, I guess, most people in the Province are aware, low level flying activity in the area, Mr. Speaker. We have memorandums of understanding signed already between Canada and the United States, the United Kingdom, which has some activity in Goose Bay, the Federal Republic of Germany, Mr.

Speaker, and in the near future, which I would expect to be within the next four or five months, I think we will also have a memorandum of understanding from the Netherlands. The ambassador who was here today indicated that there are some very positive talks in that way. So, Mr. Speaker, the low-level flying activity is actively being pursued now. There is activity in Goose Bay right now and it is increasing. We also want to get the NATO training centre, the base itself, to go to Happy Valley - Goose Bay, Mr. Speaker. I must say, I do apologize to the hon. the member for Menihek (Mr.

Fenwick) for not giving him a copy 'of this today. I did not do that No. 46 R2697

intentionally but, Mr. Speaker, when I became minister of this department some year and a half ago, four or five months into my ministry, I guess, I had discussed it with the hon. the . member for Menihek. This was before the environmental study and the health studies were put in place; and to be honest with you, Mr. Speaker, I was left with the impression - I apologize if I misunderstood him, but the member for Menihek said to me at that time that if the health studies, the environmental studies and the wildlife studies were put in place, he did not see that he would have any problem with it.

Now, I know that is not his party and maybe that is the reason why I did not consult with him today, because I figured everything was in place and he would be happy. And I had not talked to any members except the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland) from the Liberal Party. So I assumed that we were all in agreement. We all know that this is very beneficial to Labrador, not only Happy Valley - Goose Bay. This will benefit Coastal Labrador. HR. TULK: It was announced two weeks ago. HR. R. AYLWARD: Oh, yes.

Well, it has been on the go for the year and a half that I have been minister, and we have been trying to attract this. But, as to the importance of it today, and to· clue up, because I know I do not have much time, we have to get the message out to the NATO Ambassadors that everyone, all elected people in this Province, want to support this training facility for Happy Valley - Goose Bay. We have an excellent facility there. It is underutilized now. Happy Valley - Goose Bay exists because of NATO L2698 June 4, 1986 Vol XL military activity sometime in the past, when it was built.

The environmental studies are not finished, but Canada has some thirty years experience in low-level flying and international training facilities in Cold Lake, in North Bay and other parts of Alberta and Canada, and I visited them myself. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): Order, please! The hon. member's time is up. MR. R. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support the resolution that has been presented, following consultation with all members of the House, by the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the member for Menihek (Mr.

Fenwick) that although he does not have recognized status as a party in this House, I believe the intent of the minister would be to have - and we would support this provided, of course, the member supports the resolution, which would mean he gave his support for the establishment of the centre and that he would be prepared to explain the advantages of having this centre - I believe the intent would be that we would have the No. 46 R2698

member for Menihek as a member of this delegation. MR. R. AYLWARD: I am sorry to interrupt the bon. member. There is one thing I left out. MR. BARRY: Sure. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): The bon. the Minister Agricultural and Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: of Rural, Northern The last part of our 'Be it further resolved' states that this House of Assembly will explore the possibility of sending a delegation. I would like to have had it worded saying 'yes' or 'no ' , because I am sure everyone wants to know. Obviously, this has to be checked out with External Affairs and that is why it is not worded so definitely. MR.

BARRY: That makes sense. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I, myself, have already an opportunity to visit several of the NATO countries in July. I had intended to take that opportunity to attempt to express our party's position on this issue but it is much better if we have a unified, co-ordinated approach as we did at Goose Bay where the Opposition House Leader (Mr. Tulk), I asked to attend, at the request of the member for Naskaupi. Both members attended the meeting with the NATO representatives, Mr. Speaker.

The reason I ··asked the Opposition· L2699 June 4, 1986 Vol XL House Leader, as well as the member for Naskaupi to be there, was to show our party's support for this attempt to see jobs established on a reasonable basis for the people in this part of our Province, in Labrador. Now, we all know that there are concerns in the establishment of this center as in the case of any development. We know that the concerns of the Native people have to be met and we have to be sensitive to their concerns. We know, Mr. Speaker, that there is a peace movement. It is a growing movement in this country.

But those of us who have been involved in the past with the military - I spent three years myself while at university under the officers training plan. I had the opportunity, as a matter of fact, to spend a Summer in Germany in a NATO facility as part of my training.

Basically, it is not because you want to be a warmonger, it is not because you are against peace, it is because history has shown that there is a greater prospect for peace, there is a greater prospect for avoiding war, if a country has a reasonable degree of defence and if there is cooperation with other like-minded countries in the co-ordination of a defence capability. It is not to encourage war.

It is not to encourage the establishment of an offensive capability to go out and start pushing your weight around, it is to ensure peace through co-operation amongst all the NATO countries that we would support this resolution. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: We do not see an inconsistency, No. 46 R2699

Mr. Speaker, and we do not see where anybody, being a supporter of the peace movement, which I believe I am, or anybody being a supporter of Native rights and environmental concerns, which I am, there is no inconsistency between this and trying to ensure that the base, which is going to be established anyhow, be established in Canada and that we see the investment, the business opportunity and the employment come to this Province, if at all possible. For this reason, Mr.

Speaker, I am happy to put the support of our party behind the efforts of members opposite and I would hope we will see the support of the _member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) in encouraging External Affairs to have an all-party delegation from this Province go to express our support for the establishment of the NATO Tactical Training Center at Happy Valley - Goose Bay. I think it would be a marvellous opportunity for this Province and I think it is completely consistent with those other concerns which I have mentioned. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Greening): The bon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Before I begin I would like to get up on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: L2700 June 4, 1986 Vol XL A point of order, the bon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, this is very serious and it ties into what we are debating. On today's front page of The Evening Telegram there is in big bright read letters, "Inuit In Labrador ready to pay price to keep NATO base out of Goose Bay." That is incorrect, Mr. Speaker. This is completely wrong. They are talking about the Innu people.

They are talking about Ben Michel and two or three others and here they have them labelled as Inuit people which is completely wrong altogethe~, Mr. Speaker. So I would ask The Evening Telegram to apologize to the 3,000 Inuit people in Labrador who are not supporting Greenpeace, as Ben Michel is. I just want to make that clear at the present time, Mr. Speaker. MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the han. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: The han. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) did rise on a point of order and I would like to speak to it very briefly. He is quite correct in what he says. It shows a lack of understanding on the outside world, when I say that I mean outside of Labrador. There is a lack of understanding about the ethnic make-up and the other considerations in Labrador. They do show a Innu gentleman from the Indian race and they are referring to the Inuit which could be quite a insult if you happen to live in that part of Labrador and are part of either one of the No. 46 R2700

ethnic groups originally. I think what is happening and the whole purpose behind why we are here today and why we have been given leave of the House is to point out the differences and where the concerns are. The media has been getting a very, very one sided-sided view of the real situation which exists in Labrador. This here only compounds the fact that the media has not been given the correct information and is not getting the total view. DR. COLLINS: Where are the media now? MR. KELLAND: Yes, where are of the media right now, as the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) mentions.

I would like to support what the member for Torngat Mountains says. Indeed there is a lack of understanding and it is up to us to make sure the concerns of the Native people are addressed but, in the meantime, we should ensure the economic future of the Naskaupi District, Labrador, our Province and the country. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, matter of clarification. The bon. member for Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. it was a Torngat In the five minutes that I have left, as a member for one of the districts in Labrador, I might say a member who is representing 80 per cent of the Native people in L2701 June 4, 1986 Vol XL Labrador, I will support this resolution put forward today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: I am satisfied to say to the member for Menihek, the Leader of the New Democratic Party in this Province, that I would put my seat on the line against him or his party anytime for the sake of jobs for the people of Labrador! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, we have seen the Leader of the NDP Party in this Province today trying to not only delay, but trying to cancel altogether a potential of thousands of jobs directly and indirectly for Happy Vally-Goose Bay, also my district and the bon. member's district. The member was more concerned today about Ern Condon, Dorothy Inglis and about Gene Long whose names were in the paper on the weekend against NATO in Goose Bay. That is what the member is concerned about. He is concerned about members of his own party who placed an ad in The Weekend Telegram against low level flying and NATO in Labrador. Mr.

Speaker, I am very doubtful if Dorothy Inglis ever went to Labrador and has ever seen Labrador, other than through a picture. I am very doubtful if Gene Long has ever been up on the Coast of Labrador. MR. SIMMS: Party before people. MR. WARREN: The member got up here today and No. 46 R2701 < '

said that he has a party convention this weekend and he is hoping we will come up with a policy. I would ask the member if his party elected him or did the people in Labrador City and Wabush? Who elected the hon . member? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: He should first and foremost stand up for the people who elected him and not play politics on such an important issue! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to be interrupted. I only have five minutes. I had the opportunity, along with the Minister of the Environment (Mr.

Butt) and the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. R. Aylward) of flying low in Cold Lake not too long ago and, Mr. Speaker, talk about the wildlife being effected .! They were coming out of the woods looking at the aircraft as we were flying over them. We were attracting the wildlife. Mr. Speaker, talk about people working! Everybody was working there, Mr. Speaker, because there were jobs for everybody. I would strongly suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that while the hon. member will be given five or ten minutes in this debate, I hope he will come clean, come clean with the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, in particular the people of his district. Do not listen to Ern Condon, a councillor in Labrador City or Wabush. SOME HON. MEMBERS: L2702 June 4, 1986 Vol XL Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I had a meeting last week with the Town Council of Wabush and, again, I was told - and talking to the people of Labrador City and Wabush, the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) was there - do you know what?

I bet if you can find 5 people out of 9,000 that are there, you would only find 5 that are against NATO going into Goose Bay! You may find 5, and they may be all in one family. Mr. Speaker, I think it is high time for the member to forget about his socialist ideas, forget about - probably I should not say it but I am going to say it anyhow - we do not want members in this House who come in and get elected, whether they are from another Province or not, to come in here and stop a development from taking place.

If that is what the hon. member has in mind, I would strongly suggest he go back to Ontario where he belongs! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have people in my district who have to live on $4, 000 or $5 , 000 a year. Some of those people, with the developments in Goose Bay and with the commitment from Colonel David, will be employed. Native people will be employed. The opportunity will be there for Native people to get employment, and Mr.

Speaker, I am quite willing to support this resolution knowing that not only the district of Naskaupi will benefit, but the district of Eagle River and Torngat Mountains and the hon. gentleman • s district. I call upon hon. gentlemen to come No. 46 R2702 ' ,

clean with the people. AN HON. MEMBER: All over, all over Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. WARREN: Yes, all over Newfoundland and Labrador, but mainly I believe we all realize that Labrador, especially Naskaupi district, needs the influx now. They need the help now and now is the chance for us all to unite and give help to that district which desperately needs it, along with all of Newfoundland and Labrador. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Greening) : The bon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. KELLAND: It is certainly a pleasure, Mr. Speaker, to be able to stand and speak on a resolution that is so important to the people of my district, indeed, as has been said by the previous speakers, the residents of the entire Province. and much wider spread than that if we are talking about the national scene and our role in the international scene as well . I would like to make a couple of initial comments and confirm what the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. R.

Aylward) L2703 June 4, 1986 Vol XL mentioned a little earlier in that a lot of the electorate were viewing the House of Assembly, and I mean collectively, both sides, as being just a little too complacent on · the issue. We had an interest group here going in favour, an interest group going there in favour, and all of us have spoken in favour of the Tactical Training Centre in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, but the House was not seen as being very forceful, or very militant in making our case. We were considered to be complacent. Based on that, a number of things happened.

One, of course, is the fact that we now have this resolution which we hope will see the unanimous support of the House. Members will recall that just a very short time ago I wrote each of them a letter seeking their individual support as individual members of the House of Assembly. My motive was tied to the same thing that this resolution is.

My idea was to be able to say to people who complained about the fact that the House was being perceived to be too complacent, I could say, 'Look, we have fifty-two members who have, in writing, committed their support.• Now that was sort of an initial step as an individual member of the House to other individual members. Now we have this resolution to talk about. So I want to give that explanation as to my motives.

I have discussed it with some other members individually, and I must say I thank the ones that have had the time so far to give letters of support for the establishment of the Tactical Training Centre in Happy Valley - Goose Bay. I would expect that the rest will follow shortly. No. 46 R2703

MR. TOBIN: You have it all in the resolution now. MR. KELLAND: Yes, the resolution also it, but I would like to through on a step that already taken. covers follow I have I think a lot of the important points have been touched on but I really am a little concerned about what happened here today. I am not unfamiliar with the member for Menihek's position.

Now, I do not mean his position on whether or not he supports NATO, but the position he has taken that he would not give his personal opinion as an individual member of the House, and in his party's case, he is an individual member - he is the only member, so he would be voting on behalf of his party - until the annual meeting of his party. He seemed to imply in my mind that he had a position of his own that might be in support of NATO. He sort of hedged his comments, in my opinion, that way.

He made it appear that way, 'but I do not want to give that to you guys yet, because I would rather get the position of my party.' Now, we all know when we are talking about Menihek district, and government members have been up there, they have talked to people, I have talked to people who have telephoned and corresponded with me about the question of NATO, and whether or not they should be in Labrador. I must say that I have not received directly any complaint from Labrador West, the Menihek district, against NATO. Maybe there are some , but they are very few.

L2704 June 4, 1986 Vol XL I give as evidence of that the fact that Ern Condon, who has been mentioned a number of times here, did call a public meeting and invited some of the Innu people from Sheshatshit and perhaps Davis Inlet into Labrador City to explain their position on how they felt about NATO. I was told that there was perhaps less than twenty-five people in attendance altogether out of a fairly large district and there were no transportation problems for both communities in the Menihek district to get to the meeting.

It seems to me that twenty-five people, maximum, some of which came from my district to explain their case, would not be a very good showing.

I would think that if the member far Menihek is politically aware, -he will have to address the fact that he is perhaps in a position which is against better than 90 per cent of his district. on the other hand, the converse of that, the member for Torngat Mountains, the member for Naskaupi district, and the member for Eagle River may well have the exact opposite, they are on the same side as 90 plus per cent of their electorate when it comes to the question of whether or not Happy Valley - Goose Bay and indeed Canada should get the economic benefit - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker, a little leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. No. 46 R2704

MR. KELLAND: of the establishment of the facility. You know, as a representative who has a Native or Innu community within my district, one of my five communities, I am deeply concerned that their -concerns are addressed. I will make another point in that regard too. I was Mayor of Happy Valley - Goose Bay for ten years, as the House knows, and in that time I had a position on the expanded or extended military use of Goose Airport. It was clearly and publicly stated many, many, many times.

Now, keep in mind that my position did not change when I offered myself for election back last year and I still received the majority of the vote in the village of Sheshatshit, which might be an indication that not every single soul down there are against my views with respect to the establishment of the NATO Tactical Training Center. I think it is a point worth considering. The Innu people in my district have been concerned about their traditional way of life.

Interrelated, of course, with the traditional way of life, are conc~rns about their health, the environment and the effects on wildlife, which, of course, are interrelated, as I have already said, with their traditional lifestyles. Studies have been instituted to address these concerns and, in the outside world, through the media, people seem to visualize the fact that all these low level aircraft are continually flying over Native encampments.

Now, I without whatsoever can fear by tell this House, of contradiction anybody inside or L2705 June 4, 1986 Vol XL outside the House, that there are more aircrafts flying over or close to a

section of our town known as Spruce Park, close to the end of the runway, than ever go over any Innu encampment. Now, that is a fact, With 110,000 square miles and 600 or 700 or 800 Innu people who camp traditionally here and there and travel in other areas, there are just not enough aircrafts to be continually over-flying the encampments.

The military has said quite clearly and the federal government has said quite clearly, supported by the provincial government and ourselves, in the event that there are encampments in the interior of Labrador and there is any danger that it might be on a route that the low level training will take, that a simple request to the military commanders will ensure that those aircrafts will not go anywhere near those temporary or permanent traditional camps. Now, that is a pretty good statement and it is one that has been adhered to.

So, if you look at the environmental concerns, we have organizations, as I mentioned already, the Combine Council of Labrador representing every community in Labrador, every community - MR. WARREN: Except one. MR. KELLAND: With one exception? Are you talking about Sheshatshit? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. KELLAND: Okay. Every has come out would be communities, No. 46 community in Labrador in support of, which roughly thirty the establishment of R2705

the NATO Training Center. We have encouraging support from the Labrador Inuit Association who says that if it can be shown that there will be no ill-effects on the health, environment and wildlife, they will certainly give consideration to the economic benefits. MR. WARREN: They are pro-development. MR. KELLAND: That is right. They are not anti-development. I m~ght just briefly add that a very similar position has been taken by the Labrador Metis Association.

I see we are running very low on time and I have been given the leave of the House to extend a little further and I now, in order to conclude this and give the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) the opportunity to speak in support of this resolution so that we may show a unified front and a very non-complacent attitude with respect to establishing the NATO Tactical Training Center in Happy Valley - Goose Bay, conclude my remarks. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr.

Speaker, I also require perhaps a few minutes more than five minutes so I would request leave ahead of time to let people know that that is coming. The other thing I would like to L2706 June 4, 1986 Vol XL mention to the members of the House is that I do have a position on the establishment of a tactical fighter base under NATO in Goose Bay and, at the end of the speech, I will give it to you. It is - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, would you please - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

FENWICK: One of the problems with this particular issue has been the enormous lack of debate which seems to have occurred. When I say lack of debate I mean that seriously. I was watching on television, I think it was Monday night, what I thought was one of the most embarrassing situations I have ever seen. At some hall up in Goose Bay, there were a number of NATO ministers being entertained by our representatives, and while they were in there being entertained, three Native people were sitting in the porch, Mr.

Speaker, sitting in the porch because they did not have a shirt and tie and a coat, at least that is what the - MR. WARREN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: No. 46 R2706

I have to interrupt the hon. member because he does not know what he is talking about. Those gentlemen were invited. They were told beforehand, in plenty of time, to wear the same proper attire that the hon. member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland) had to wear, I had to wear, the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) had to wear, and other members, and they had lots of time to abide by protocol. It was their own fault. MR. TULK: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: The hon. gentleman from Torngat is right. The member for Menihek (Mr.

Fenwick) , of course, was not there at the meeting and, therefore, has very little knowledge of what went on. Everybody who went to that thing, including myself and the member for Naskaupi and all the other people there, were advised that you had to have a shirt and tie. I would say this, and I think the member for Naskaupi made this point to me after the meeting, that if perhaps those people had come in their ceremonial dress even, the Commanding Officer would very well, perhaps, have said to them, "Sure, come on in, that is your normal wear." But that is a flimsy excuse.

I would say to the member for Menihek that perhaps there were some people who were advising those people to come to that meeting in that condition so that they would have a media issue. MR. SPEAKER: L2707 June 4, 1986 Vol XL Order, please! To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, I think the situation does bring out the point I was making. There is a lack of dialogue here. we are not listening to both sides.

I would also suggest, by the way, that if there was a camera crew taking pictures of that and it was used by an organization that was aggressively trying to stop the base from being established up there, by showing those pictures in Europe, we would have an awful black eye no matter what the explanation was. I am just trying to say to you that it seems to me symptomatic of the level of debate that has occurred. The name Ern Condon has been raised in this debate. I would like to tell you, yes, that Ern Condon was a federal candidate in the last election in Grand Falls - White Bay - Labrador. MR.

KELLAND: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: The point of order is to a brief remark by the member for Menihek. The point of order is simply this. I really do not like to see people attempting to mislead the House. He made reference to the fact that if that film footage went over to Europe, it would do a lot of damage. However, the whole No. 46 R2707

intent of the resolution and part of the second 'WHEREAS' , the main thrust of the 'WHEREAS' is to go over and argue that exact point. That is one side of the story as we have all said. We are going over and giv ing the other side . So that is what it is all about here. I would ask the member not to mislead the House, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, there is no point of order. The bon. the member for Menihek. MR . FENWICK : Back to the question of Ern Condon. Ern Condon is a highly moral, conscientious man who is deeply concerned about very important peace issues.

He is one of the most honourable men I have ever seen in my life . MR. MATTHEWS: Who? MR. FENWICK: Ern Condon. In the context of the level of hysteria, which is about the only way I can describe it, I think it was extremely courageous of him to make arrangements to allow the Innu to at least put their side of the story before the people of Labrador West. I think it was .important that that side be told.

Whether or not that is the side that will prevail, I do not ··know, but I think it is important that we listen to people, even if they are a small minority, even if they are not a large, well established and well funded group, like others . When I listened to the derogatory comments by the member for St. John's West (Mr. Crosbie) L2708 June 4, 1986 Vol XL federally, talking about those individuals and the arguments they are putting forward, I was, quite frankly, embarrassed that he represents a district in our Province.

About the other individuals who signed the proclamation, I believe, that was in Saturday's paper. I think Gene Long was one of them. Dorothy Inglis was another . If I am not mistaken, there were one or two other people who are connected to the party pretty prominently as well. There are also, by the way, seven or eight Roman Catholic Sisters who signed the proclamation . I am wondering if, by the logic used by the members opposite , this indicates that the Roman Catholic Church is against the NATO base. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

FENWICK: I am not sure whether it does or not but I am saying that we should ask the Pope perhaps. MR. SIMMS: Is Lorraine Michaels involved in the NDP? MR. FENWICK: Not actively. Having made those preliminary comments, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, could I have a little quiet? Getting to the question of the NATO base itself, the federal party, of which I am a member, in a series of conventions had a look at the position that the Canadian No. 46 R2708

Government should play in international politics. It has adopted a position that Canada would be better off as an non-aligned nation, rather than a signatory to the NATO alliance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: I say that, Mr. Speaker, because I want to make it clear that within our party, both feder~lly and provincially, we are not without significant differences of opinion on it.

Looking at the arguments for the NATO strategical base up there, one of the arguments that I have had put to me by members of my own party and other members is that we should not be putting $400, $500, $600, $700 million into a massive armaments base when there are people starving in the world. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: I am sorry, a tactical weapons base.

We should not be putting $500 million to $1 billion into a tactical weapons training base - have I got it correctly now? when there is so much need in the world for resources to alleviate poverty, to alleviate starvation, to provide clean water and so on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! L2709 June 4, 1986 Vol XL MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, if that was the argument, I would find that a convincing argument. The only problem is, it is not. As all the members in the House here know, the question is whether or not the base will go in Turkey or whether it will go in Goose Bay.

The question of whether it will be established has been taken. It may be a good decision or it may not be but, it is not for us to debate that at this point. What we are debating is should it be in Goose Bay and should we encourage it to be in Goose Bay? That is a different kind of a question, and one that I find is not inconsistent, by the way, with the federal party's position that the NATO Alliance is not the appropriate place for Canada on an international basis. But I say that to you because I wish you to realize the problems that I have with it. There are other arguments. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: One of the other major arguments is that we should not have anything to do with nuclear weapons. I say to you today that if there was any intention to put nuclear weapons in there, to store nuclear weapons, or to train using nuclear weapons or delivery systems primarily for nuclear weapons, I would at this point say immediately that I have no intention of supporting the establishment of that kind of a base. I believe that there is no - No. 46 R2709

MR. FUREY: On a point of order, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon . the member for St. Barbe. HR. FUREY: I do not know if the hon. member is aware of this but I think Canada has been an nuclear free zone for ten years. HR. KELLAND: And that is the federal position. HR. FUREY: And this is the position of all of the members unanimously in the Parliament of Canada some years ago. You may argue that the testing of the Cruise missile makes us not an nuclear free zone. Well, the fact of the matter is that no Cruise missile was tested, rather, the shell was tested.

But, you know, to listen to the hon. member for Menihek get on with his bleeding heart about peace, all members in this Assembly ·are for peace. We all want peace for ourselves and for our children, but we do not want Greenpeace. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, Newfoundlanders want peace on our terms. We do not want the Greenpeace that screwed us out of the seal industry on the Northern Peninsula on both side. That is the kind of peace that we want to eradicate from this Province forever. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! L2710 June 4, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER : Order, please!

I must rule there is no point of order. The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. MATTHEWS: A good point though . MR. FENWI CK : So, Mr . Speaker, what we are looking at is a base that will be training airmen in low level flying and other tactics, a tactical weapons base.

Springing from my own disagreement with nuclear weapons, I realize that a corollary of saying that a country should not have nuclear weapons is the implication that you actually have to put more of your resources into tactical weapons, you have to be better with conventional warfare because I am certainly not a full blown passivist suggesting that we have no armaments whatsoever. So on that particular aspect of it, I find nothing irreconcilable with my own principles with regard to nuclear weapons . Other arguments: What about Native people in Labrador?

As the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. R. Alyward) has already mentioned, last July I sent him a letter asking for an environmental impact study to be done on the effect of low level flying. At that time, i believe, the NATO base was somewhat less well defined as an objective. I really wish that the goverrunent had taken me up on it then because if the study had started in September, we might be well down the line of knowing what the impact of this thing is. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible.) No. 46 R2710

MR. FENWICK: Hold on now. We do have a number of studies underway. We obviously have the caribou study or the wildlife study and that is on its way. MR. R. AYLWARD: Look at Cold Lake. In Canada generally this has been going on for 30 years. It has been studied and we know the results. (Inaudible.) MR. FENWICK: We also have another study, Mr. Speaker, that is underway and that is the study on the effects on the Native people in the area. I think that is an important one that was started as well. We have also been told by the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Butt) in the Committee hearings that we held on his estimates about six weeks ago, I guess now, that there is a full-blown FEARO study being organized by the federal government. It is my understanding that this full-blown study will have a panel of people from the Labrador area and from other areas and will be in a position to set parameters for what should be studied; the effect on wildlife, the effect on people and the socio-economic effects. What will happen if the base closes? All bases do eventually. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER ; Order, please! MR. FENWICK: In a well ordered world, Mr.

Speaker, it would be nice to have seen the panel established, the studies started, the studies completed and us in a position to L2711 June 4, 1986 Vol XL make the decision on this base with that information in hand. Unfortunately, given the fact that the decision has to be made, I believe, by December, we do not have the luxury of awaiting all these processes. AN HON. KEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. FENWICK: We do not have at this point this FEARO study. That is what I am saying . It is unfortunate that we do not. MR. GILBERT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A point of order, the hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, we have heard the member for Menihek waffle on making a decision and coming out and saying he is either going to support this or not. Now he has talked about his party federally and provincially and the feelings they have on it. We know his party is extremely to the left. If this base was going to be established in Russia, I do not think we would have many impact studies done on it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

GILBERT: As someone who received my education through the courtesy of the Canadian military, I am happy to have said that. But when I hear someone stand up and make statements like that, waffling, waiting for environmental studies to develop something so that No. 46 R2711

Newfoundlanders can go to work, I feel that the man is wasting the time of the House and he should get up and either support it or not support it, not be mealymouthed about it. Come out and either support it or be against it! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: · To that point of order, there is no point of order. The bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: So what does it reduce itself down to, Mr. Speaker? There are a number of problems with it. I think we all recognize there are a number of problems with it.

I am hoping that the FEARO study will at least address a lot of them and will put us in a position where we will not impact too severely on other things . It brings me to a number of positive arguments in favour of the base and, quite frankly, employment is one. I would like to say to you that I am not unsympathetic to the idea of creating employment. As as matter of fact, I consider the number one priority of this House, this government and all of us is to make sure that we do create employment. On that basis, it is certainly a positive indicator to say yes to the e