Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 42

April 1, 1976, Tape 1627, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of personal privilege. MR. SPEAKER (COLLINS): The han. the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: A point of personal privilege and I think, Mr. Speaker, perhaps a matter affecting the privileges of the House as 'well,but certainly the former. I refer to a story which was in this morning's Daily News. It makes reference to some remarks made a couple of days ago, Mr. Speaker.

I was not in the House when the remarks were made - to my knowledge I was not, anyw~y - so it is the first opportunity I have had to react to the remarks. If the paper quotes the Minister of Mines and Energy incorrectly, well then, that will take care of the matter. He can stand and say that it does quote him incorrectly. Otherwise, I would like to deal with it as a matter of personal privilege. I am referring to the stray on page 1, headed, "Crosbie Charges Unknown M.H.A. With Co-operation With The Enemy." Assuming that the paper ' has quoted him correctly, Mr.

Speaker, and I have not had an opportunity to check the Hansard record, but assuming that to be the case,I believe the minister has cast aspersions on all of us as members and tarred us all with the same brush in a sense. I did not send a copy of Hansard to either Mr. Doyle or Mr. Semonian. I know a number of other members who have not sent such a copy, or at least told me they have not sent any such copy of Hansard to Mr. Doyle or Mr. Semonian. The member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) in responding, accordinR to the newspaper report, indicated that he had not done it. I have now said that I have not done it.

I hope every member in the House does not have to stand up and disassoctate himself. The member for St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy) has stood and said that he did not do it, MR. NOLAN: Was it I,Lord? MR. SIMMONS : I think, Mr. Speaker, the minister has made a very serious charge, the kind of spurious charge that he himself abhors. And he has often said, Mr. Speaker, that one should name 4311

April 1, 1976, Tape 1627, Page 2 -- aob MR. SIMMONS: names when one makes charges. I would invite the minister to name names or to withdraw the remark. It being, Mr. Speaker, a point of personal privilege I would like to make an appropriate motion which would serve to facilitate the situation at this time and I would move, seconded by the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan),that the House instruct the Minister of Mines and Energy either to name the member he says supplied Mr. Doyle and/or Mr.

Semonian with the copy of Hansard or to withdraw without qualification his charge that a member of this House has done so and apologize without qualification to the members of the House. I so move. MR. SPEAKER (COLLINS) : The han. the House Leader. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of personal privilege. I think before the motion can be entertained, Your Honour has to decide if a point of personal privilege has in fact been raised . Because I was in the House that night - I do not think I saw in this morning's paper the

article to which the hon. member refers - but I was certainly in the House and there was no reference by the Minister of Mines and Energy to that hon. member. None at all. Whoever it was let him speak for himself. But I think the hon. member has raised a point of personal privilege which I assumed to be a suggestion that there was some sort of allegation involving him as a member. It may be that there might be something to be discussed on the question of privileges of the House. That is a different matter. But on a point of personal privilege, which the han. member rose on, Mr.

Speaker, I usggest there is none because the hon. member in his personal or in his capacity as a member was not mentioned in any way, shape or form. and I think that point should be disposed of. PREMIER MOORES: MR. SIMMONS : It is no~ a matter of personal privilege. Mr. Speaker, to that point raised by the government House Leader. Could I just respond to the effect that I did

preamble by saying that from the newspaper account I felt that I had been indicted in a sense, but quite apart from that I felt it

April 1, 1976, Tape 1627, Page 3 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: was a matter affecting the nrivileges of the House as well,and I introduced it in the dual context, a matter of personal privilege and/or a matter affecting the privileges of the House. I feel strongly that it is both. MR. WELLS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. It cannot be an and/or. If it is a matter of personal privilege let that be disposed of. If it is a matter of something else then let that take its turn, but it not a matter of and/or. MR. SIMMONS : }fr. Speaker, we can play with words all we like. There has been an unsubstantiated charge made.

I did not sent a copy of Hansard. I want it cleared up and other members of the House want it cleared up. I invite the government House Leader to stop playing with words and let us deal with the issue. The Minister of Mines and Energy has made an unsubstantiated charge Let him substantiate it or withdraw it. SOME HON. MEMBF.RS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. ~. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, there is no breach of the privileges of the members of the House nor is there any breach of privilege with respect to the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr.. Simmons).

I never addressed myself to him so he is not involved in the matter,nor is there any breach of the privileges of the members of the House. There has been none pointed out and I certainly do not intend to withdraw any statement I made unless it can be pointed out to me that it is an abuse of the privileges of the House. I would certainly like to have a copy of the Hansard. I cannot remember every word I said the other night and I think that should be obtained.

Let us get a transcript of what was said,and if-there was any breach of the privil_eges of the House I eertainl; would be quite willing to withdraw, I would not have any hesitation. But I submit there has not been either. MR. NOLAN.: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a question 6f the minister? Does

April 1, 1976 Tape 1628 IB-1 HR. NOLAN: the minister know for sure that any member of the House did what was suggested? Could it have been someone other than a member of the House? PREMIER MOORES: Do you know for sure that there was not? HR. NOLAN: No, I am asking a question. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of ~fines and Energy. I!R. CROSBIE: This is somewhat irregular, Hr. Speaker, but I cannot say for sure that some member of the House sent a copy of the Hansard to ~1r. Semon ian, no. But it is quite clear that someone sent Hr. Semonian. MR.

ROBERTS: Was it the regular Hansard, you know, which comes out or was it just an extract? MR. CROSBIE: I do not know because I was not there when he was reading it. I do not know. So I cannot say who sent - }ffi. ROBERTS: I mean,Hansard itself is hardly a secret document. ~'R. CROSBIE: That is right. MR. ROBERTS: It is unreadable but it is hardly secret. HR. CROSBIE: So I cannot say tvho sent Mr. Semon ian a copy of the Hansard. NR. ~IOORES: The request was - MR. ROBERTS: Well,whoever requested it obviously - it is a prima facie case. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I think ::he first duty of the Chair to establish whether there is a prima facie case for a breach of privilege,and I understand from the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) that he is bringing up the point that in speaking the hon. minister - I believe I understand correctly - that in bringing up the point that is in dispute the hon. minister breached privilege. Am I correct in understanding that point? }!R. SUI!>fONS: It is my contention that the minister made an unsubstantiated charge against the members,one member of this House. Without naming the member he cast aspersions on all. I say, Mr.

Speaker, that is not within the privileges of the House or his privileges as a member.

April 1, 1976 Tape 1628 IB-2 MR. CROSBIE: This whole business, Mr. Speaker, is a silly business. The member for Burgee-Bay D'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) of course is a silly person and this is a silly point. I withdraw that, Mr. Speaker, if they are going to-groan and moan about it. When I was making my remarks the other night I suggested that the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) had sent this to Mr. Semonian. _MR. NEARY: And the minister withdrew that. ~. CROSBIE: The hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) said he had not,.and I accepted it.

So why the other hon. gentleman is getting so highly insulted on this point, a breach of privilege,! do not know. But just so we will not be wasting time with it I will say that I am not saying that any member of the House sent it to Mr. Semonian. All I will say is that someone sent Mr. Semonian or his principal a copy of the Hansard of the House. _8N HON. MEMBER: Who is his principal? MR. CROSBIE: His principal is Mr. John C. Doyle. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Having heard the remarks from both sides I would rule that a prima facie case for a breach of privilege has not been established, The hon.

Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, on another matter of personal privilege, I would like to give notice to the House at this time that in due course,when transcripts have been procured and necessary work is done, that I myself will be raising a question of privilege out of remarks that were made the night before last in this House. As of yet the transcript is not available. When it is I will ask the House to deal with the whole matter. MR. SU!l-fONS: MR. WELLS: }fR. ROBERTS: ¥R. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: By whom? By the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). A point of order with respect to that.

The hen. Leader of the Opposition. I do not wish to speak on the merits of it at all. Indeed the hon. Minister without Portfolio has not made a substantive 4.3·75·

April 1, 1976 Tape 'o . 1628 :m - 3 'm. FOBERTS: motion . But I do tnink that Your Honour - and I will raise this not as an objection, but I will raise it for consideration - the time in this matter must be looked at. Timeliness is of the essence with respects to points of privilege . While I have every sympathy, 1 may say, for the position in which the 1Dinister finds himself, the fact remains that the remarks in question were made on Tuesday evening - were they not? - Tuesday evening, and the Rouse did meet yeste r day and no ob1ection has yet been taken .

I do not raise that at this point as a substantive objP.ction because the minister has made no substantive motion, and ! might not raise it even then. I mean, T may or may not , Rut I thin k , "r. Speaker , that ll'.atter must be looked into because timeliness , as Beauchesne ~•111 tell us, as the gentlema n knows, 1f of the very essence of questions of privilege. ·~. svAJ.LWOOD: A man cannot sleep too long on his rights without losing them. "P . VELLS: 1'1-.at is correc::. Well be that as it may, Hr.

Speaker , T give notice no1,• that ~~hether in a general debate or on a question of privilege, ho1~ever, if there is any right whatsoever to bring :« ometh in~; up ;md denl with it in this Rouse it ~~ill be done when everything is ready . MR. ~F.ARY: You do not have to give notice of that. ~~. SPFAKF.~: nrder, ~lease: Order, please! nn this matter, I do not believe a ruling from the Chair is required at t his time. 4376

.{\pril 1, 1976 Tape 1629 PK- 1 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. HON •• E. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, in response to pressure from the Province of Newfoundland for additional funds for manpower training, in November, 1974 the Federal Government introduced a pilot training programme which was designed to encourage people receiving unemployment insurance benefits, and in certain cases people receiving welfare to enrole in special manpower training programmes while they were receiving either unemployment insurance or welfare benefits.

The programme has been referred to as the DMI-UIC (Department of Manpower and Immigration-Unemployment Insurance Commission) pilot training programme and was .funded for an amount of $3.5 million of which $1 million was allocated for the balance of the Fiscal Year 1974-1975 and $2.5 million for the Fiscal Year that has just ended.

The Federal Government introduced the project on very short notice and with little or no consultation with the Province and because it was introduced after the start of the school year, Provincial training officials were very skeptical as to whether the project could be properly mounted. I say it was introduced with no consultation, even though we had made representation to the Federal Government for increased Manpower funding, the type of programme that was brought in, we were not aware of until such time as it was actually offered and ready to go.

However, even with that through the joint co-operation between the Department of Education, the Department of Social Services and my own department steps were taken to respond to the proposal from the Federal Government to arrange special training programmes over and above the regular Manpower training programmes. Having made a special effort to make the programme work, and having been, to this point in time, very encouraged with tha results of it, the Province has protested the termination of the programme both at the official and ministerial levels with the Federal Department 43:77 .

April 1, 1976 Tape 1629 PK - 2 Mr. Mayna rd : of Manpower ar.d Immigratt~n. There have been numerous meetings between the officials of the department on a regional level, of Province to Federal level and there has been two meetings between myself and Mr. Andras, the minister of that department. However, after all that representation the most recent communication on the matter is a telex from the Hen.

Robert Andras, Minister of Manpower and Immigrattmn,in response to my plea to him to provide additional funds to continue that programme or indeed one similar to it, because everyone is well aware, I think, that the amount of money we have to speat on Manpower training programmes in the Province this year is inadequate to keep up our level that we have attained over the past few years. However, Mr.

Andras in his reply, dated 4th. of February, 1976, indicated that he would be in a position within the next four to six weeks from that date to advise me whether the programme could be continued beyond the 31st. of March, 1976. To date we have not heard further from the minister despite my efforts to have a decision made before the termination date of the programme, which was yesterday. We therefore have to assume, Mr.

Speaker, that no additional funding will be made available from the Federal Government, Our officials have therefore developed a contingency plan whereby certain programmes, such as in the basic training for skilled development courses will be continued under regular funding at a cost of $150,000 involving 210 training places. This ttep will ensure that courses are continued in areas where the greatest need exist. We have to continue some of the courses that are now underway or else drop them in midstream, and that is not desirable.

However, because of the termination of the programme by the Federal Department we are unable to institute any new training programme under that particular funding. My preference would have been to continue the special pilot training programme at its maximum volume until at least June, 1976, in .43l8 ·

April 1, 1976 Tape 1629 PK- l Mr. Maynard: order to permit a more urderly and sensible phasedown and :1n order to fully assess the value of the progr811111e over the past year and a half. HOwever • we Camlot do it alone because :la o~r to do ~o would mean a reduction :la our reaular t~ prograDDIIe. Efforts will continue with the department to have them institute a special programme in Newfoundland in this regard,but I think it is appropriate to make the House ~d the public aware today that the Special programme has · been terminated and possibly will relll&in so unleas the federal department is willing to eo-operate with more funding in this regard, 437-.9.

Ap.ril 1, 1976, Tape 1630, Page 1 -- apb MR . SPEAKER: Further statements by ministers. The bon. the Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to confirm that the government has agreed to assume the full responsibility for the payment of insurance premiums on all school buildings in the Province. SOME RON . MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR. HOUSE: That, of course, began today at noon. The premium came into effect today at noon.

This agreement has been reached with the De~ominational Education Authorities after a series of meetings between the Denominational Education Committees and the Federation of School Boards and the Department of Education. I would like to point out, Mr. Speaker, two or three of the main features of the policy. First of all 1all of the schools in the Province will be insured for their full replacement value. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HOUSE: In the past,very few schools were insured for replacement value. As a matter of fact, in a lot of cases the fires we had, they were as low as 40 per cent.

In fact,many of the buildings were insured for far less than what it cost to build them when they were built. MR. SMALLWOOD: Insured by whom? PREMIER MOORES: By the school boards when they could get insurance. MR. HOUSE: The school boards. The schools were insured in the Province - and we collected data on that - for just $315 million. That was what they were insured for by the boards. MR. ROBERTS: What was their worth? MR. HOUSE: Their worth or replacement value was something over $600 million and that is what they are insured for now. The insurance policy is with a firm Marsh-McLennon.

I believe, I am not sure ,of this ·, they are represented by Munn Limited here. It includes fire, vandalism . and malicious damage, and is non-cancellable for a three year period. It will also include coverage on furniture up to 10 per cent of the value of the 4386

April 1, 1976, Tape 1630, Page 2 -- apb HR. HOUSE: building - that is for furnishings of the school, It will include boiler insurance and public liability. MR. SMALLWOOD: That means equipment as well as the building, MR. HOUSE: Yes, that is right. This policy will cost the government approximately $1.6 million. Mr.

Speaker, I am very pleased that we have been able to reach this agreeaent with the Denominational Educational Committees and the Federation because now for the first time all schools will be fully covered under this new package deal which will cost considerably less than it would have cost the individual school boards even for the coverage they had. MR. F.B.ROWE: Does the minister know what the estimate was1 MR. HOUSE: The estimate we had was something over $2 million - $2.2 million for that amount of coverage. MR. F.B.ROWE: Compared to $1.6 million. MR. HOUSE: Yes, and, of course, for less coverage.

Now 1ust an indication, Mr. Speaker, of the value to. school boards is an example that was offered to ae by one of the school boards in Central Newfoundland, the kind of a board that repr~sents a large number of boards in the Province. That school board last year had a total operations budget of $276,000. Of that amount $65,000 was paid for insurance,which by simple arithmetic tells us that they had $212,000 to operate the rest of their services. This board will have that $65,000, which represents an extra twenty-five dollars per pupil.or a 30 per cent increase in their other operations grant. SOME RON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. HOUSE: As I said, Mr. Speaker, this represents the same kind of effect it will have on a large number of boards in the Province. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 4381

April 1, 1976, Tape 1631, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F.B.ROWE: Sir, we on this side of the House welcome indeed the ministerial statement or announcement by the Minister of Education. It is som.ething that we have been very, very concerned with over the past few years. We have put questions to the various Ministers of Education and we have even put suggestions with respect to this whole business of insurance on schools, to the extent where we asked the question whether it would be indeed a saving if we did not have any insurance at all on all the schools.

There probably would be a saving - MR. ROBERTS: Self insured. MR. ROWE: - you know, no insurance at all, and there would be the odd school burned do~~ and some damage done, and it would cost money, true, but it might not cost as much as the actual premiums that would be required to cover schools totally for fire insurance. So it is a very, very welcome announcement, Sir, and we give the minister credit where credit is due in this particular case. I think he has probably indicated there what the savings are in this particular case.

Apparent!~ $2 million was being spent before in premiums for partial coverage,and now only $1.6 million is being spent for full coverage which is arithmetically quite correct and represents a saving and increased coverage. You know, the one little thing I find a little bit distasteful is the fact that we heard of it through the press. The Ministerial Statement comes after press releases. I think probably the minister could probably inform the House beforehand. MR. MORGAN: The minister did not announce it. MR. ROWE: Hho announced it,the school boards? MR. ROBERTS: The Reverend Mr. Bellemy. "!R. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to clarify that statement. MR. ROWE: Right! MR. HOUSE: We had to have concurrence of the school boards to adopt this measure and every school board in the Province were

April 1, 1976, Tape 1631, Page 2 -- apb MR. HOUSE: party to it and the statement was made in the press by the Secretary-Treasurer of the Federation of School Boards. It was not from this department. MR. ROWE: Okay! Fine! That is fair enough! Well, Sir, I cannot say very much more on this except to give credit where credit is due. I sincerely - S()ME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROWE: If the member for St, John's East (Mr. Marshall) resigns or crosses the floor, I might make a wild dash, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, I think that in all probability - I am not positive, but I think - in all probability the goverument are to be congratulated on this, and if they are, then eapecially the Minister of Education. The government from time immemorial in Newfoundland has never insured its own buildings, It has been its own insurer, that is to say, it carried its own risk and it estimated always that it was cheaper to pay the cost of the building that was destroyed than to pay premiums on all buildings. This was the cheaper way out.

I think I put a number of questions on the Order Paper to which I have not as yet had any answer,but perhaps the answer has just been given me now by the minister. These questions have been on the Order Paper since last - when was it the House first met?

October or November • because it is a matter of the utmost importance, especially with the fancy school buildings that ' have been erected in the last twenty-five or twenty-eight years, and especially with the fantastic increase in the money values of those buildings and the furniture and equipment in them, The minister, without a doubt, when his estimates come before the Committee of Supply will tell us how this vas done 1 whether tenders were sought and from whom the tenders were sought and the tenders submitted - the amounts of the tenders - by the various firms. 4383

April l, 1976, Tape 1631, Page 3 -- apb MR. S~!ALL WO OD : I will never forget,in St. George's just before Confederation - about twenty-seven or twenty-eight years ago- Fred Scott, the late Fred Scott . was the magistrate there, I think, at the time, the Redemptorist Order of the Roman Catholic Church told me - the priest there in charge, there was a group of them - that they had gone out and insured their property in Montreal and they had got a three year policy at a considerably lower cost, premium cost, that ordinarily they had been paying for one year,which looked very much like a - what is the word now?

The new word for rake-off? - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SMALLWOOD: Rip-off! Rip-off! it looked very much like a rip-off. So I will be immensely curious and interested to know how this insurance was in fact effected. Becasue $1,600,000 a year premium payments is a mighty income for some insurance c~any and I am quite sure that a lot of insurance companies would love to have it,and I am quite sure that there was no need to limit it to insurance agencies within the Province. I am sure that the minister has gone far and wide to get the best bargain for the Province. I think in all probability this is good.

I am not confident. I am not sure of it. You know, I am not sure of it but the minister will tell us much more about it when his estimates come before the Committee. 4384

April 1, 1976 J-<R. SPEAY.RR: MR. SOOIONS: 1:R. ROBERTS: HR. SPEAKER: Tape 1632 PRESENTING PETITIONS: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. Mr. Speaker, I will yield to my - Yield to him, let him have the floor. The hon. member for Bay of Islands. SOME BON. ME~~BERS: Hear, hear! IB-1 }ffi. WOODROW: MR. SPEAKER: I would like to thank the hon. member, Mr. Speaker. I would point out to the hon. House that I was not ignoring the hon. member for Bay of Islands (Hr. Woodrow),but he had resumed his seat. But he now has the floor. The hon. member for Bay of Islands. }'IR. WOODRmv: Hr.

Speaker, I will be very brief with the petition. In fact the type of petition has been mentioned in the House many times bef0re. But it comes from the Local Improvement District of }'.ount Moriah, Newfoundland. That is of course in the Bay of Islands district.

There are 227 names on the petition and it says,or the prayer of the petition is - I will read the letter instead of the heading on the petition which is in essence about the same. 11 Enclosed you will find a recent petition circulated in our community opposing any further increases which are being applied for by the Newfoundland Light and Power Company Limited." It is signed by the chairman, Garland Vardy and the secretary,Elizabeth Rann. So, of course, as you know, I do not know how many names, p·etitions have been brought to this bon.

House already but I do hope that ~ I say we - that the government will find its way, will be able to see some way to keep the rates within reason. In fact I happened to call Corner Brook today and I was told the cost of my bill for the this past month, and I must say it has not gone up too much,but it has increased a whole lot since this time last year.

So I think everybody all over the Province, as you know, are finding the pinch and I think since petitions are continual~y coming in peo?le are still thinking about it even through we are approaching the beautiful warm weather when we will not be using too much electricity.

April 1, 1976 Tape 1632 IB-2 SOKE liON. ~~~ffiERS : Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile . HR. NEARY: I support the prayer of the petition, Sir, so ably presented by my hon. friend from Bay of Islands (!1r. Woodrow) on behalf of his constituents who are violently protesting any further increase in electricity rates in this Province. I think the han. member,whether he realized it or not put his finger right on the key, right on the significant part of the whole thing,and that is in the warm month of July, the hon. member indicated, people may have a tendency to forget about this.

Well, Sir, this is precisely what is going to happen in July or August: We are going to see an increase I think it is of 9 per cent. I beg your pardon? AN RON. MEMBER: Not with the by-elections. MR. NEARY: Not with the by-elections coming up?

Even with the by-elections coming up, Sir, we are going to see a 9 per cent increase in July, I think it is, the first of July,or Newfoundland Hydro will ask Newfoundland Light and Power Company to increase the rates paid to Newfoundland Hydro by July 1 1 and then the Newfoundland Light and Power Company in return will have to go down to the Public Utilities Board.And the Public Utilities Board being another agency of the government regulating another crown corporation, another government board will merely rubber-stamp the application after going through a charade, having a little act.

They will rubber stamp it and in the warm month of July, my hon. friend is quite correct, the increase will go through. ~l ell,this is rather unfortunate, Sir. That is the warning that I t~rew out many,many times in this hon. House, that people have to guard against becoming complacent about increases in electricity rates,because when everybody is on vacation and the weather gets warm, the next thing you know the thing will be sneaked through and the next thing we will ha.ve the one and three-quarter per cent monthly increases put back on again by the Newfoundland Light and Pow'er Company.

Thfs is the sort of thing we have to guard against. MR. WELLS: Point of order. Tr.e hon. member is enterjn g into dehate, contrary to the rules. 1"'1'. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoi1e (1-'r. Ne11ry) hRs concluded hjs remarks. 4386

April 1, 1976 Tape no. 1633 Page 1 - mw MR. NEARY: Too bad, 'Robert': You will have to take your spite out on somebody else. MJ. NOLAN: I merely rise, Mr.

Speaker, to support the petition as presented by our hon, friend, which in many ways supports many similar petitions that we have heaud previously in this House,and we, certainly all of us here, s~port him in his efforts and the people who signed the necessary documentation or petition in their efforts to attempt to realize through whatever ways possible, legal ways possible, to try to effect some kind of a saving, because we have a situation now, whatever the reason, where in many instances people are paying for fuel,for heat in their homes what not too long ago they paid for rent,for their mortgages and so on.

So it is quite a serious matter, and we certainly support the hon. member in his petition. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SrMMONS: ar. Speaker, I rise to present a number of petitions • I refrained from standing up before in supporting the petition from the gentleman from Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow), because I would like to do it now, and make it all one set of comments. I certainly support his petition and the prayer of that petition. The petitions which I have before me bear on the same subject.

Before getting to these,just let me say, Hr, Speaker, that we are glad for the support we are getting from the member for Bay 6f Islands (Mr. Woodrow) on this matter, and we congratulate him for the courage it takes to do what he has been doing. The word that I am getting is that he must be the hardest working member in the House,or just about that. He talks about his light bill going up. Well, of course, all our light bills are going up, but I would suggest his is going up more, because he is burning the midnight oil in every sense of the term, if the word that is getting back to me is at all co~eet.

Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, he is in some respects a voice crying in the wilderness. I will not carry the connotation any further, because that leaves either me or the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), depending on who you consider to have followed him,as somebody next to the voice crying in the wilderness.

April 1, 1976 Tape no. 1633 Page 2 - mw Mr • Simmons . Now, Hr. Speaker, I have a petition from a number of residents of the town of Bonavista, which has been forwarded to me, and it is my pleasure on behalf of these people to present the petition to the House. I do not think we need to say much in terms of words about those petitions now, because I think everything has been said. It is up now to the appropriate bodies to take some action.

So rather than again elaborate on the prayer . of the petition, which addresses itself to the exorbitant electricity rates, perhaps I could use this opportunity to invite someone from the government side - I notice that the Hinister of Y.ines and Energy is absent. But perhaps in his absence the Premier or some other minister might indicate to us at this time what the status at the moment is of talks that were going on between the government and Newfoundland Hydro in particular? I wonder if these talks have concluded or if the announcement the Premier made about the rate being effective July stands?

I am asking, Mr. Speaker, for some information. Now if there is some reason why we should not have tn:e information by all means shout me down. MR. WELLS: Point of oyder, Mr. Speaker. I had relaxed for a moment. I thought we were back on general debate or on 'the estimates or sometling, but obviously this is out of order. MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, to that point of order. Whether the member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) is relaxed or tense is his problem, Sir. It is not the House's problem.

My colleague is making the type of remakks, Sir, which has been allowed in presenting a petition from time immemori•l in this House. He is not entering into debate. He is merely addressing himself to the substance of the prayer of the petition which he is presenting, I the material allegations: I believe. is the phrase used in the Standing Orders, and he is asking of the ministry a question, and I did not even think he was putting it 4389

April 1, 1976 Mr. ROberts. Tape noo 1633 Page 3 - mw particularly controversially . I must have a word with the gentleman outside the House on that point. But he was asking a question, and I submit it is quite in order, and I submit he should be allowed to proceed without the harassment of the House Leader on the ~ther side. A389·

April 1, 1976 Tape 1634 PK- 1 MR . SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! The han. members, I am sure,are q~ite familiar with the Standing Rule relating to the presenting of petitions. It is a rule that has come up many times in this House, Rule No. 92, so I will not read it again. But in commenting on the petition it has been permitted in the past that an invitation has been extanded for a response to the petition from the other side of the House. And if the bon. member confines his remarks in that area without getting into areas of controversy I would rule him in order. The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir.

MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps I would have been wiser, Mr. Speaker, to stick with the prayer of the petition because it is exactly what I was putting in question form. What is the government doing? That is what the petition is all about, Hr. Speaker. If they want me to put it a little more bluntly and to the point I shall do so. I thought perhaps it would be better,in very low-key fashion, to ask the question, because we are all in this together in some ways, and I am not wanting to make a great big controversial issue of it.

But if the bo~s are going to sit over there and play games with this, the government House Leader and the rest of 1hem - MR. PECKFORD: On a point of order. MR. SIMMONS : - I will engage in it too, Mr. Speaker. ~ffi. PECKFOP~: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! MR. PECKFORD: Is it correct in this hon. House for one hon. member to refer to other hon. members as 'boys', 'boys across the way•; I would like to have a.ruling on that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SUII'IONS: MR. ROBERTS: ~ffi. S l MMONS : To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. We have some girls here - To the point of order, Mr.

Speaker. To the point of order, I have other terms ~or them. But that is no point of order. The minister knows full well he cannot ask questions of Mr. Speaker. He can make a point, and ask for a ruling. But he has asked a question 4390

/ April 1, 1976 Tape 1634 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: Mr. Speaker, and he cannot question,Mr. Speaker on particular points, and I .would suggest it is no point of order whatsoever. And he is not a "boy, Mr. Speaker, in my mind. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (MR. COLLINS): Order, please! Order, please! I would regard this as letting off a little steam. I do not think the House would regard a real point of order to be at issue here. I would ask the hon.memher if he would continue his remarks, but make efforts aot to get into an area of discussion that excites comment from the other side at this point. MR.

SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I may say without at all, without us all taking exception to what Mr. Speaker has said that I can only, Mr. Speaker, address my remarks as I feel fit and within the framework of the rules. If these gentlemen choose to get excited, perhaps, Mr. Speaker, it is because they have good reason. And I would ask again, Mr. Speaker, as the prayer of the petition asks, and I would invite some one, the men, the gentlemen from the government side - MR. MJRGAN: The bon. gentlemen. MR. SIMMONS: - the bon. gentlemen,and the Minister for Transportation as well, Mr.

Speaker, I would invite them all to get up and tell us what they are doing about this matter. If they want to make it a partisan issue I will be with them any day at all, but I would rather hear, Mr. Speaker,what all of us together as a House of Assembly can do, and I very gentlJ invited them, If they want to engage in snarky remarks, two can play that particular game. Mr. Speaker, the petition is from a number of residents of the fawn of Bonavista who implore the House to do its best to put whatever restraints are possible on the ever-rising cost of electricity. There are twenty on this particular petition. MR.

MORGAN: Twenty! Big deal! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker - MR. WHITE: Write them all and tell them want he said.

April 1, 1976 Tape 1634 PK - 3 MR. SIMMONS: - each person can only sign his name once and those twenty are as important as if they were 100,000. Let the minister realize that. MR. \illiTE: Write them all. l1R. SIMMONS: If he sits there, Hr. Speaker, and undermines - SOJ1E RON. l1EMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. SPEAKER: (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! MR. WHITE: Write them all. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please!

I would bring to the attention of the hon. member the latter part of Rule 92 1~hich states "That in no case shall a member occupy more than five minutes in so doing unless by permission of the House upon question put." The five minutes has expired. HR. SIMMONS: I can conclude this one very quickly, Mr. Speaker. S Ol1E HON . MEMBERS : No leave! No leave! MR. SIMHONS: I would request that this petition be placed on the table of the House and referred to the appropriate department. MR. SPEM<ER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! MR. S IMI'!ONS : Mr. Speaker, I have another petition I would like to present at this time.

It is a petition, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! MR . PECKFORD: Sit down! MR. SIMMONS: Shut up, 'Brian', boy! You are making a foo~ of yourself. AN HON. l1EMBER: Do not be so foolish, boy! MR . SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Having presented a petition,the hon. member would then resume his seat and rise again to be recognized by the Chair, if !le wishes to present another petition. !laving done so I no<7 recognize the hon. member for LaPoile who has risen for this purpose, I assume. -4· . .a 9-2

April 1, 1976, Tape 1635, Page 1 -- apb }!R. NEARY: It gives me great pleasure, Sir, to support the petition presented by my friend the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons), in behalf of twenty people in the grand,old, historic town of Bonavista. In supporting this petition, Mr. Speaker, I want to make it abundantly clear that this is probably the first occasion since I have been in this hon. House, although I think - no,there are probably one or two petitions that have been presented by members who did not represent the districts from which the petitions came.

Now in this particular case, Sir, this is a non-partisan issue,so I think probably members can be excused,and there is justification for members on this side and on the government side, presenting petitions that do not originate in their own districts. But I want to make it clear to the House, Sir, that only in the case of electricity or any other provincial matter that may come up would I be presenting petitions from districts other than my own district. In every other matter, if I get a petition it will be passed over to the member who represents that particular district. I just mention that in passing.

Another it has happened, there .is precedent in the House for it. But I would never, Sir, personally - I want to make it quite clear to members - concerning any other matter I would never present a petition in this hon. Rouse from another member's district without prior consultation with the member or without offering him the petition to present. I have had petitions on other matters and I have passed them over to hon. gentlemen,or I consulted with hon. gentlemen hefore I oresented them. But in the case of electricity I think it is a free-for-all, Sir.

So therefore I make no apologies for all the petitions and I am sure my hon. friends on this side make no apology for the petition, It is a province-wide problem and it is something that we are going to have to face up to in this hon. Rouse. I am sure that if you took the total count now, Sir, of the signatures that have been presented - the other day I indicated that I probably presented about 50,000 myself, probably another 20,000 or 25,000

April 1, 1976, Tape 1635, Page 2 -- apb HR. NEARY: from all the other members of the House, s0 you are up around 75,000 signatures,! would think, Mr. Speaker. And that is substantial representation and would certainly be enough to make the government sit up and take notice. MR. SPF.AKF.R: The hon. the member for Conception Bay South. ~IR. NOLAN: Hr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition - ~IR. ROBERTS: No, I want to speak on this one, 1 John 1 • ~- NOLAN: Oh, you do? Sorry! MR. ROBF.RTS: Mr. Speaker, ~ fR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, if I might say a word in support of the petition from Bonavista South which was presented by by friend and colleague from Burgeo-Bay d 1Espoir (Mr. Simmons) and which the gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) just spoke in support of. I ~rould like to say a word on it, Sir, and in saying that \mrd or two perhaps I could say that I am some~~hat hurt that the gentleman from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) has not entered into it. I hope he will. In so saying, I agree t~ith the gentleman from LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) , The normal tradition is either to give a petition to a member from another district if it has come to one, or at least to say, "Look, old man, I have a petition coming up this afternoon that is from vour district." The electricity one seemed to have crossed all party lines and also all district lines.

The gentleman from LaPoile (Mr.Neary) - I do not know about his 50,000, I think I would rather have him on the revenue side of the Finance Department than on the expenditure side the way he puts numbers together - but, you know, his many thousands of names - 20,000 or 25,000 whatever in fact ther~ actually were - came from all over the Province and that is right and fair. Rut, Mr.

Speaker, the point I wish to make, particularly in reference to this petition from Bonavista, the town of ~onavista, is that it may be signed by only twenty people and the member for Bonavista South (Mr. }!organ) mocked that, he uade light of it, he poured scorn on it -my colleague from Burgeo- 4394

April 1, 1976, Tape 1635, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: Bay d'Espoir pointed out, Sir, that one person is every bit as good as another,. no better b~t ~o wore~. But the fact remains, Sir, that these twenty people, at least seven on them, Sir, are signing in a capacity other than merely as private citizens. BecausPthis petition is headed up by Gordon Bradley the Mayor of Bonavista. It is signed as well by Mr. Fred Gosling,the Deputy Mayor, Mr. Maxwell Way,a councillor, Mr. Douglas Strickland,a councillor, Mr. B Mouland,a councillor, Mr. Lloyd Little,a councillor and Mr. F. Sweetland a councillor.

I have not checked with the Department of Municipal Affairs but I suspect there are only seven members on the council in Bonavista Town, which means that is every councillor in Bonavista who has signed this petition and had it sent forward to my colleagues and to me for presentation in the House which we have done. MR. MORGAN: It was sent to whom? MR. ROBERTS: It was sent to me. MR. MORGAN: To you? MR. ROBERTS: To me. To my colleagues and me,and because I had no particular desire to present several hundred petitions I asked my colleague.

And there may be one or two others of my colleagues, Sir, who have been swayed into action by the eloquence of the gentleman from Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) who first presented a petition today,and there may be two or three more of these petitions to be presented if one were to hazard a guess.

The point I want to make, Sir, is that while this petition may not be signed by a lot of people - and I do not know how widely circulated it was in the town of Bonavista - it is signed by the council,and the councillors in signing have affixed their positions which I believe would be an indication of the fact that as a council they support the prayer of the petition. Well so do I, Sir. 4.3°6 ~ l - ~ '

April l, 1976 Tape 1636 IB-1 lfR. P.OBEl'TS: I commend it to the government. I think the point of these petitjons has been v:e.ll made. I had not intended to rise at this particular tjme but,you know, I wjll since the matter - M!t. !!ORGAN: Thjs is one of thn'le form petHi0ns you sent out. I!R. ROBEP.TS: Of course it was sent. It is not secret that it was sent out, l!r. Speaker. Of course it was sent out. He took the initiative. }IJ' •• Sit"Y.ONS: ~IR. 1'.013ERTS: I took the initiative. The hon. gentleman did not care enough to take the initiative. I took the initiative, Mr. Speaker. YR. F. POI·IE: Hear, hear!

Sm'E liON. l·lJll'BF.RS: Hear, hear! I'R . llOBERTS : But I did not send it back. I, did not send a stamped, self-addressed envelope. I did not ring up ~lr. Cordon Brndley,who by the way is a very prominent citizen and I believe a well-known supporter of the hon. gentleman's and a good friend and son of the late Senator Bradley, a very fine Newfoundlander, a very fine man. I c,'!id not ring up Hr. Gordon Bradley and say, "nr. Bradley wHl you send back tl1e petition:· I sent it out to him. It went to every municipality in the Province.

And the mayor of Bonavista obviously felt seriously enough to sign it, his colleagues felt seriously enough to sign it and they then sent it back. If the gentleman for Bonavista South (Hr. Horgan) does not like that, Sir, his quarrel is not with me. I submit he has no quarrel with anybody. But I support the petition, Mr. Speaker, and I think it snould be taken seriously as an expression of opinion by the council of that town. I commend it to the government and I hope they treat it with the respect it deserves and that is a very great deal indeed, Sir. Thank you. Sm1E liON . MEMBERS : Rear, hear! r-m.

SPEAKER: The han. member for Conception Bay South. Ill'. ~OLA~: If I may now, l'r. Speaker, I would like to present this petition again involving the same situation, and that is the controversial electricity rates in the Province. This,by the way,is from Branch, St. !!ary's Bay. If it is in order I would like to say, if I may, Nr. 4396

April 1, 1976 Tape 1636 IB-2 MR. NOLAN: Speaker, something about the situation regarding the presentation of petitions. Privately I feel that if I am presenting - I do not care what it is on - a petition from any district other than my own - privately,and I am not speaking for anyone else and I do not really care what anyone else does - frankly I will notify the member concerned personally that I am going to do it. I mean I feel that if the House is going to work at all you have to have some rules, unwritten rules, that you have to go by.

I am not sure sometimes that people think that we take some of these things too seriously when they hear some of the bickering back and forth and so on. Anyway this petition from Branch, St. Mary's Bay. I do not know how many names are attached to it, Mr. Speaker, I did not count them all. There are a number of pages here of names. I did not count them all MR . NEARY: You are supposed to count them and sign them. MR . ROBERTS: There are 220. MR. NOLAN: Well,I am not going to count them and sign them. I am merely presentin g them in good faith in the House and if anyone thinks that I am - MR.

NEARY: We accept your apologies. }~. NOLAN: Pardon? }ffi. NEARY: What about the rules of the House? lill.. F . ROWE: Go ahead 'John' • ~!R. NOLAN: It is amazing sometimes how the rules of the House come into play. Anyway I appreciate the comments by the hon. member. There are some numbers here, twenty-three on that page if you want it, In fact there are forty-three on that. Now we are going on, eighty-seven, 106, 231 •. So we are up over about 400 here on this, 300 or 400. MR. NEARY: That is the right way. HR . NOLAN: Yes, right.

So anyway it is - this is not made in any way to attempt to embarass the member for the area. I would not have mentioned it at all only it has been suggested here. This 4~9. 7

ll.pril l, l976 Tape l636 :rr ... :10LA!:: situation is, ns our hon . friend to our far r icht suggests, one that !111s really capture d the imaginatjon or concern of so tr.any people around the Province . :\o\-1 you can pJ ay the numbers game if IB-J you H:lnt, .,J.etber it is so,ono or 100 , 000 or 200,000 but there are enoup,h to cause every sin1~lc member, no matter what sitlc of the !louse he sits nn , in my opinion , so111e concern.llnd it does. I have no doubt about it , c.ot doubt n~out it at all . The thing is risint alon~ wit!: everything else .

So 1 present this petition with respect to the people of Branch in St . ltary ' s Bay Cor forwarding jt to us . I would like t o table it no,.., l'r . Speaker, and have it presented to the dcp ar r cent to which it rel a tes . 439·8

April 1, 1976 Tape no . 1637 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hen. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: I rise to support the petition aud to thank the han. member for joining with me in my efforts to ensure that the people of Branch, in my constituency, are not unduly charged for their electric rates, and I would ask- that maybe the next time you see Dolf Nash to pass my regards on to him. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: If I may say a word in support of that petition. The hen. gentleman from St . Mary's - The Capes "(Mr. W.

Carter). has blundered right ir.to it. The petition, Mr. Speaker, was sent forward by the Community Council of Branch. I forget the name of the chairman. If I had the petition in front of me I could see it. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Nash. MR. ROBERTS: No, Mr. Nash is no longer the chairman of the Community Council of Branch, Sir. It was sent forward by the chai+man of the council in Branch, and I think the hen. gentleman will find the seal of the community as well attached to it. So his attempt to score a fourth class political point will not succeed.

Let me also say, Sir, that I am very glad the minister has supported this petition. It is fair enough. I would hope now he will also support the other request which the community council made,which is namely that representations be made -and I have made them, because the request was made of me to the Newfoundland Light and Power Company­ because the power supply to the community of Branch is inadequate, apparently the voltage is not adequate.

And I will not say to the hen. gentleman what was said to me in the letter from the chairman of the council, but I will say that the approach to me was made only after other approaches proved futile, and that is not quite the language which the council chairman adopted, but that is certainly the thought. So if the hen. gentleman from St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. W. Carter) wants to score some cheap political points that is his privilege, but, Mr. Speaker, the point which I make in supporting this petition -

April 1, 1976 Tape no. 1637 Page 2 - 1I!W !r.l.. W. CARTER: Point of ord.er. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): A point of order. HR . IV. CARTER: Or it may be privilege. The hon. member is certainly, I think, misinterpreting ~he meaning of what I said . Certainly it is not against the rules of the House to ask another member to pass on his regards to a constituent that, I know, is very friendly toward the bon. members opposite . MR . ROBI:.'TS: Xr . Speaker, to that point of o rder.

If ~e were to pass o ~ cur regards to everyone of the minister's constituents with whom we are very famil.i.u:, and very friend l y, there would b.e nothing else that we did the day long, Sir. And they are far more friendlier now I might add, t·han they were on 16th. day of September because, of course , they have had six month's knowledge of the minister. SOME HON . !EMBERS: Hear , hear : MR . ROBERTS: !·!1: . Speaker, the po:l.nt I am making in supporting the petition is t hat - HR. MURPHY : Eight yea1:s. MR . ROBE~S : Eight yeats? Yes, I had forgotten.

The bon. gentleman has been the member for that area, and for a larger area for part of it for eight yea r s . Re has been re-elected- he was 1:e-elected what? Twice? MR. ~IDP..PHY; MR . ROBERTS: l1R.. ROWE: Three times. o, once elected, twice re- elected.­ Once as a Liberal . .m. ROB.ERTS: - 1972 and 1974 N ON. ~!DffiER: r.very time he ran he was elected . .IlL ROBERTS: Yes, every time he ran he had been elected and he hos been elected for every party he has ever run for, too, and he has had his share of t hose . He might have had trouble getting re-elected in White Bay Notth , !'.r .

Speaker, but I suspect that that is debate. Oh, oh~ m. SPEtJGWR (Dr. Collins) : Order, plea se ! '4400

April 1, 1976 Tape no. 1637 Page 3 - mw MR.. ROBERTS : But, Mr. Speaker, the point I am making in supporting the petition is that the council of Branch have raised the problem that they are not getting an adequate power service. I have made representations at their request to the Light and Power Company, because it is in the franchise area of the Light and Power Company. I would invite the minister quite sincerely to join with me in doing that.

I am sure he is concerned, and as I said the letter which I got indicated that the approach was made to me only after other approaches made by the chairman of the council had proved to be futile. I support the petition, Sir, and I know every hon. gentleman will, including,in particular, Mr. Dolf Nash, a fine citizen who may or may not have signed it, I honestly do not know, but he did not send it to us . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: Hr.

Speaker, I am glad to join in supporting this petition and in telling the House that we will accep~ this as we have had all these petitions with enthusiasm and with the dedication that we are going to do the best we can to ensure that energy costs are kept as low as possible. I would also like to say, Mr. Speaker, that it is too bad that petitions are presented to this House and political points made on them, because the · root of a petition is not to score political points in the House. It is to put forward the views of people in the Province who want to put a petition before the House. SOME HON.

MID1BERS: Hear, hear! MR. CROSBIE: And the hon. Leader of the Opposition has certainly fallen from that tradition with these political slurs on the member for the district of St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. W. Carter). Every member of this government knows how dedicated he is to his constituents, in his incessant and insatiable lust to deprive the treasury of every possible cent for the people of St. Mary's - The Capes district and of Branch. It is just terrible, Mr. Speaker, that we have

April l, 1976 Tape no. 1637 4 - mw Mr . Crosbie . to confess to this !louse t~~t ~e are worn out and beat out with the pulverizing that the ~linist er of Fisheries is const antly giving his colleagues to get the :,est service and bes t benefit:s for his district . And there is no member in the House - SOHE t!ON . :IEHBERS: Hear • hear : 'tR. CROSBIE: - there is no member in this House , Mr. Speaker, more aware of his constituents ' needs and more vehement in seeing that t hey are car r ied out. And as a macter of fact , Mr.

Speaker , just yesterday the tlini s ter of Fisheries was assaul t ing me about energy cates and hydro conditions in the tm.m of Branch . SONE t!ON. }Jm!BERS: Hear, hear : '!R. CROSBIE: So we are glad to see that the Opposition are supporting t!:e minister i1'1 his efforts co improve conditions for his district. SO} IE liON. ~!EY-B ERS: Hear, hear! ~m. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins) : The hon. member for Placentia . MR . PATTERSON: ~ . Sp_eaker, I wish to congratulate the bon. member for presenting the petitio n.

I cer ta inly suppor t it, and I also endorse the remarks made by the ~inister of Fisheries in conveyint my best to the hon . Mr . Nash down in Branch . 440~

April 1, 1976 Tape 1638 HR. PATTERSON: I might say if it were not for my efforts and Mr. Carter's there would be no lights on the Cape Shore. I personally handled the petition and it was presented in this House by Dr. Frecker. So I certainly thank the han. member for presenting the petition and there again I endorse the remarks of Hr. Carter. }ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. }ffi. SU1MONS: ~fr. Speaker, I have another petition which I wish - MF. ROUSSEAU: ~ay I speak to the one from Branch? MR. SIMMONS: Yes, sure. }ffi~ SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. IB-1 MR.

ROUSSEAU: Hr. Speaker, I would like to get up on this petition for quite a different reason,if I may. I remember when I first went into the Department of Highways, Mr. Speaker, the Department of Transportation and Communications in December of 1974 and received very many letters from the people on the Cape Shore about the road situation.

I must say of all the letters we receive in the Department of Highways regarding roads.- you get some pretty blasty letters at times . - these people were the most fantastic people that I received any representation from in my year in Highways,and far be it that I would not stand up and support a petition from these people. They were nice and very understanding and very considerate in respect to the roads on the Cape Shore on which this government has done a lot of work. I would like to stand up because the people are from the Cape Shore area and certainly give support to this petition. _MR. ROBERTS: Well said.

SOME HON • ~fEHBER.S : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burgee-Bay D'Espoir. MR. SI!IHONS: Thank you, I1r. Speaker. I would like to present another petition on the same subject. I may say in doing so that I certainly support the one that has been presented \)y the member for Conception Bay South. I might say also, Mr. Speaker, to the Government House Leader if he is within hearing, that we have a number of petitions on

April 1, 1976 Tape 16JS Il>-2 : :r.. <; D'1''0:IS : this same subje::t . 1 think almost every nemller in the official Opposition has at least one petition . h'e agreed , :•r . Speaker -and 1 think it is fajr (or r1e to say this - we aflreect before we came in here that we would be vr-ry brief nbC\ut this becnuse the mntrer hAS already haen thorour.hly cliscussctl , ond it was our full intention "'hen we came in here thls afternoon and sol"!e had even cocomentet! inde<!cl thnt I h11d heen very low-key in putting my questions . That was for a vary gootl reason.

Very low . period! t'T', I"'~'PilY: v'l . ~n~·oss: !lecausc ~1e clirl not want, ~1r . Speaker , to make this into .1notlocr pnrtisan hassle nuch as the one tile l!inJste r of }tines and Enercy referred to . lie .. ·oulc' like to accord the peop l e or the :'rovjnce wlto si~u~d these petitions their rif l•t to have their petitions heard, ;md ~~c 1~ould like to have it dC\ne ._,ithout all the harassment '''e h.s.ve been r.ettin~ .

Th(·re is no need for this circus that ::c have h:1c' in the last fifteen nint:tes or a h:tl f hour since T fir:;t litoocl up, ~:r. ~peaker . !~e could have very eently :me\ quiet l y :mel responsibly pr esentee' ou:- petitions antl "'c would be on to Or<'crs of the nny l>y nn· j\tSt about . . ;o•;, I 'tave another eight or nine petitions - petitions now. r lt<!ve not counted the IHtrnes, petitions . Mr . Speaker, 1 have one, th'O t:n:ee, four , five , si.x separate petitions. At the I!IOI!Ient I am presentinz one of thcl'l .

I aa doin:; tllis for a reason ~because if the l.aras<m~cn t continucG «e shall take our tir..e, we shall not r ilibuster cr t!tat l..ln1l of thinr. but we shall t.:~ke OtH time to say tho: things lhat necc1 to bu said in response to what is beinr said from the other sic'c . "n the other hand . :lr. Speaker, jf ve can be allowed to present our petitjo ns th:Jn we shall c'o so very quickly . lie wi.ll not filibuster . '.!e o,·ill reserve t:1e rir.ht, t'r. Speaker, to ans•ter what i.s bein& said on the other side . '~. CllOS'\TI:: nn 11 point of crtler, •cr . Spe;;l·er .

The 1-:on . rnemher is threntcn1n& t!te llouse and threatening the Speaker . 4404

April 1, 1976 Tape 1638 IB-3 MR. SIMMONS: No 1I am giving you courses of action. UR. CROSBIE: It is the most extraordinary statement I have ever heard, that the hon. gentleman threatens the Speaker that unless he is allowed to continue without anybody else saying a word on his petitions _MR. SIMMONS: I never said that 1 'John'. MR. CROSBIE: - that he is going to present six. I just heard the hon. gentleman say it. No House has ever put up with that, Mr. Speaker; you should be threatened, Your Honour should be threatened 1 and the rest of us should be threatened by the hon. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Leader of the Oppostion. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, outraged as I am by the vicious attack which the gentleman for St. John's West (Mr. Crosbie) just made on my colleague, 'Sugar Plum Simmons' here, I rise on that point of order, Sir. The hon. 1'\inister of Hine·s and Energy, Mr. Speaker, is obviously trying his best to - '1m. LDNDRIGAN: No sugar there. ~m. ROBE~TS: Well 'Thumper Lundrigan' over there. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Let us get to work. MR. ROBERTS: It is infinitely better, Sir, than anything the minister has said in this Rouse. The han.

Minister of Hines and Energy is tryj~g his best, Sir, to provoke a debate 1 and my colleagues and I are anxious to get on to the main business of the day,which is Question Period and then the Inter:lln Supply. I would request that the llinister of Mines and Energy raise only valid points of order, Sir. There was . 4~1:0;5 . ~ # • .. • ' •

AprH 1, l<l76. MR. ROBERT.S: Tape 1639 RH - 1 no threat passe~ the li~s of my colleague, the gentle gentleman from Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir(Hr. Simmons). lie is merely- MR. l!URPHY: I have heard it all now! HR. ROBERTS: Did "Ank'' say something? If "Ank" said something it is the first time in twenty years, Sir. Mr. Speaker, the point I am making without harassment fran han. gent]emen opposite - MR. L 1JN1) R I GAN : Point of order, Hr. Speaker . HR. F . ROiilE: There is a point of order on the floor. ~"!R. ROBERTS: Hr. S~eaker, I am S!Jeaking to a point of order. MR. LUNDR H':AN: I am sorry. HR.

ROBERTS: ~1e reason I am speakin? to a point of or~er, Mr. Speaker, is that the han. memher from Burgeo-Ray d'Espoir(Mr. Simmons) uttered no threats. He merely said he proposed to follmJ a certain procedure hecause he had been provoked and harassed and driven into it by the ~{inister of l1ines and Energy. I, Sir, hope that this petition is allowed to be presented and anybody who wishes to comment upon it comments upon it because, Sir, it is now ten past three. He still have not reached the second Order of the Day in the routine proceedings yet, Sir, and there are more - AN HON. ~·!ENBER: Third. ~m.

ROBERTS: - third, I a~ sorry - there are more petitions to come. MR. LlH•Jl)RH':AN: On a point of order. I think the han. l!lember in his reference to my good friend from Burr,eo-Bay d'Espoir in using the phrase "Sugar Plum Stm~10ns" was completely out of order which reflects upon the character of the han. gentlel'lan, his personality, his intep,rity and it <1efinitely shoulcl he withdrawn, ~<;OHF. HON. NE." 'Bf.r~S : !!ear, hear! ~IR. SH:AKER: Order, please! Order, please! HR . ROliERTS: I want to withdraw that, I want to withdraw that, Sir. My colleague here is a lot of things, Sir.

He has never been called sugary, but he is a first class member and a first class debater <·Thich is more than I can say for the gentleman from Grand Falls on either count. J1R, LlfNDRir./I.N: Ts that so? ~'R. SPEAKER: Order, please~ 4406

April 1, l<J76. HR. SPEAKER: ~'R. SMALLYTOOD : Tape 1639 RH- 2 The hon. member for Twillingate. Mr. Speaker, to this point of order. I am understanding more readily, more clearly every day why the people of Newfoundland are coming to regard this House with utter comtempt. And I say the people are right. SOME HON. MF.MBERS : Hear, hear! MR •. SPEAKER: _!ffi.. SIMMONS: Order, please! Order, please! To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Can I speak to the point of order, Mr. Speaker? I have not done so. I have not spoken to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR.

SIMMONS: For clarification, Mr. Speaker, there was no threat intended or implied or said. I said I will pursue one of two courses of action. I will either present my petitions~as I am duty-bound to do,or·, Mr. Speaker, if I continue to g~t responses from the other side I will reserve my right to resnond. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The understanding I have tak~n from the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir's remarks is that there was no threat directed at me in the Chair of the Speaker,nor do I understand it to be directed at the Rouse. I believe that he was stating a tactic he was contemplating on taking.

So I rule that a point of order does not exist. I would point out to the hon. member that I will certainly accord him all the protection that the Chair can give him in standing to the floor. But it is traditional in the House that if remarks made by hon. members do excite comments from the other side and he responds to them or indeed if he tends to encourage them,that the Chair will not intervene. On the other hand if an hon. member wishes to be heard in silence the Chair does have the responsibility to ask hon. members to have the speaker be heard in complete silence.

The hon. member from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. ,.4,4:0.7

.<\pril l, 1CJ7"i. Tape 163q RH - 3 MIL SHtl-!ONS: Than'< you, rr . Speaker. l would like to present <1 petition on ber.alf of a number of people . I do not know exactly hov ronny, '1r . Speakar , 1 have not undel:'taken to count them)hut it t~ould appear on this particula r petition to be certainly eighty or ninety persons. The conm11micy involved is in my frienn's district, the district of LaPoile, the col'll!llunitv of Harbour Le rou . I should 1ust say a word in reference to a petition T presented earlier from Ronavista . I 11ould normally, ~lr .

Speaker - and I have. done so before - na.ve s;one to the mem.l,er concerned. Rut as the II!C.mher for l.aPoiJe and the T.eader of the ()ppositi.on have so well pointed out, this 1-aas been matter which has crossed all pa.rty lines . He hRve had any numher of •letitions 11nd so has tl-ae member for Lal'oi le (lo!r.

Neary) and T believe other members of t he Rouse , any m•mber of petitions which did not emanate from our own constituency. 1 must say co the nouse I did not r.o previously to the member !or Rona vista South (Mr. ~lor gnn) hut not delihcratelv so, hut because I have already pr esented ot~crs from other districts on this subject and did not do so either. I would normally do so. As 440·8

- :.t April 1, 1976 Tape no. 1640 Page 1 - m.w Mr. Simmons. my colleague from Conception Bay South has said, I think it is a courtesy which I ought to extend to fellow members of the House. I have a petition here from the people of Harbour Le Cou, from eighty or ninety names, persons it would seem, and ! .would like to present this petition and re-endorse again the comments that I have made so many times on this particular subject of the need to give heed to the prayer of the petition so well put forth by the people of Harbour Le Cou. Mr. Speaker, at the same time, and in the interest MR.

NEARY: They are a pretty organized bunch. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) would like to know - I would think within his categorization they are probably one of the organized ones, Mr. Speaker. I understand ' I have been told indeed that no force was used in having people affix their signatures. I understand from a reliable source that every person who signed this signed it freely in their own handwriting, and in most cases using their own ballpoint pen. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that the question of organization is not nearly as important here as the overall issue, whether the people of Harbour Le Cou and the people of all of this Province are completely fed up with the electricity rates. I think that is the issue, Mr. Speaker, and it is the one that needs to be put again, and again, and I am not concerned in the numbers game or whether it is organized or not. The member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) tells ua that by his count he has got -~ 50,000. Well, Mr. Speaker, I believe him. I believe him, Mr.

Speaker, and further I have done a calculation based on his formula, and I find so far that we in the official Opposition, applying the expansion formula applied by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), we have a grand total now of names presented of 3,758,402.

April 1, 1976 Tape no. 1640 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins):Order, please~ I hesitate to interrupt, but I would remind the hon. member that even with the time out for points of order his five minutes has just about expired. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would beg leave to present this petition to the House and have it referred to the appropriate department. I have other petitions. MR. CROSBIE: May I speak to that petition, Mr. Speaker? HR. SIMMONS: May I continue, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: We are again, of course, pleased to receive it.

All I want to say, Nr. Speaker, is that we are hoping we will be proceeding with the estimates today or tomorrot~, and the first depart~ent will be Mines and Energy. And on"the estimates of the Department of }lines and Energy we can debate in detail all this question of increases and possible increases and petitions. Well, that is the place for it to be done. If the hon. gentleman wants to present his petitions, fine, · ~ut once he finishes them, and we get some other business done, we will be going on to Mines and Energy and he will have a grand chance to debate the whole issue. MR. SIMNONS: Thank you. MR.

SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. member for Burgeo ~Bay d'Espoir. HR. SU!l>10NS: Hr. Speaker, as I have said we are in no way wanting to delay this matter, and we are trying to do it just as quickly as we can, and we would long since l~ve been finished had we not had the partisan discussion that we were drawn into earlier in the afternoon. I would like to present, Mr. Speaker, a petition signed by fifty-eight residents.

I cannot determine the community, but this petition comes from the district of LaPoile, and it is signed by fifty-eight persons, and again the prayer of the petition is the same, It is one of the organized petitions, Mr. Speaker, - MR. Nfu\RY: Lou Blundon. MR. SillliONS: -well organized petition; Now, Mr. Speaker, the first name, and I think it is permissible to give names - is it? The

April 1, 1976 Tape no. 1640 Page 3 - 1llW Mr. Simmons • first name on that petition is W.S. Ashford, Mr. Speaker. And on this petition - another organized petition, Mr. Speaker, which is included, for the record, in that grand total of 3,758,402 - the fi-rst name on this pe.tition is Evelyn Knee• An!i again I do not know the community, but I do know from a covering letter that it is from the district of LaPoile. I would like to present that petition· to the Bouse. Mr.

Speaker, I would like also Jlo, present a petition signed by another twelve or fourteen persons, including tbe president of the United Church Women, Evelyn MacDonald. I am not sure of the community, It came in without any community name an it 1 but she did sign her name in the capacity as UCW, president of so~ particular local of that organization, I would assume. Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of twenty-seven residents of another community in the distr. i~t of Lal'oile. Again I do not know the community. The c:overirig letter indicates it is from the district of LaFoile. MR..

NEARY: Could you tell me where these petition& are coming from'l MR. SiMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the first name 4411.

April 1, 1976 Tape 1641 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: on that particular petition for the information of the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is James H. Bungay, and twenty-six other names follow. I assume their signatures were affixed freely and out of their outrage over the rising cost of electricity. MR. NEARY: They have already signed two or three. I would not take it. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, it is an interesting point, I will not raise it at this time as a point of order, but it certainly is an interesting point as to whether or not a person, a resident of the Province can sign more th~n one petition.

I would submit that he can, and he can have one here every day of the week if he is so inclined. I do know that Mr. Bungay has signed this, apparently in his own handwriting,as well as a number of other people. I have, Mr. Speaker, also a petition signed by 186 persons altogether. It would appear from the names that it is the town of Port aux Basques, I see the name Battiste, or Battiste as they pronounce it in some cases, Kettles and so on. And the first name on this petricular petition, Mr. Speaker, is Solomon Billard. And this petition here, Mr. Speaker, is one of the organized petitions as well.

Again ·I believe they all come from Port Aux Basques. But, Mr. Speaker, this one is particularly significant in the light of what the member for LaPoile has been saying,because I want to say to him through you, Mr.

Speaker, that not only is this petition one of the organized ones, and not only was the same sheet mimeographed or the same stencil used each time, but the front page has a notation on it which I am sure is not intended only for me or for the people in the official Opposition but for the member for LaPoile too, because the notation on the front page says: 11 Regards, Lou." I · have pleasure in presenting the petitions and ask that they be referred to the department to which they relate. ~ank you, Mr. Speaker. 4412

April 1, 1976 Tape 1641 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Are there any further petitions? }1R. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, }1R, SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): A comment on the petition? MR. WHITE: No,! am going to present a petition. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. NEARY: I ahve already spoken on these. These petitions have been presented. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I would - MR. SIMMONS: On a point of order, Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): On a point of order. MR. SIMMONS: On a point of order. Just for the record, Mr. Speaker, I vouch for the fact that these are all original petitions.

I looked through every last one, there are no duplications there. They are originals signed in original handwriting, Mr. Speaker, for the record. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The bon. member has given information to the House, I would not say the point of order needs to be ruled on. The bon. member for Lewisporte. MR .. WHITE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a number of petitions from my district, and one from the adjoining district of Twillingate. The petitions are from the town of Durrell, 266 people; the town of Embree, 130 people; Comfort.

Cove and Newstead, 296 people; and from the community of Change Islands, 300 people. And another petition from Lewisporte signed by 81 people. Mr. Speaker, there has been enough said with respect to electricity rates in the Province. It is still one of the biggest issues that I am confronted with when I am tilking to people, not only my constituents, but other people as well.

I noticed the other day, I was watching a programme with respect to electricity rates in the Maritime Provinces, and some of them, and I saw a gentleman being interviewed in Cape Breton where his electrical rates were higher - or his bill was higher than his old age pension cheque. So there has to come a time, Mr. Speaker, when we have to come to grips with this particular problem, and I just wanted to add my support to this petition and all the others that have been 4413

April 1, 1976 Tape 1641 PK- 3 Mr. White: presented here today, and to say no more because there has been enough time taken up already . SOME RON . MEMBERS: Hear , hear! HR . SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Burin-Placentia West. MR . P. CANNING: Mr . Speaker, I rise to present a petition from eighteen members of the Integrated School Board on the Burin Peninsula . It reads: ''At a meeting of the Burin Peninsula Integrated School Board , having a membership of thirteen" - there are ~<ight een people; the other five are probably teachers , Mr. Speaker . MR .

ROBERTS: The Burin Peninsula Integrated School Board. MR. P. CANNING:-'' it was agreed on motion to support your petition. The following Board members and staff of the School Board str ongly object to the governme.nt 's making a decision permit tin g an increase in electrical rates.' ' Mr. Speaker , I support this petition, and have a few remarksto make, Mr. Speaker. Nu:nber one is, Mr. Speake r, 1 sat on that side of ·the Uouse for twenty-three years and 441-4

April 1, 1976, Tape 1642, Page 1 -- apb MR. CANNING: I had twenty-four petitions presented to me and in twenty-three years, I am proud to say the prayers of twenty-three of them were answered. Mr. Speaker, what I have noticed here since I came into this session is that there is petition after petition coming in, and they are coming to the Opposition from the government member's districts. It probably happened two or three times in the whole twenty-three years that a member for another district got a petition referring to the next district - MR. SIMMONS : I got them. MR. NEARY: Once, MR.

CANNING: I do not remember. Just in case it did I said it only happened a few times. I am wondering, because when I was on that side of the House I certainly would be embarrassed if a petition was presented by another member, because I would begin to think that the people of that district did not have any confidence in me. So I am wondering if the petitions coming to this side of the House are petitions plus a vote of non-confidence in the conference. MR. FLIGHT: 'MR. CANNING: Good point 'Pat'. Good point. Most of them are from other districts.

Thetr names are Lloyd Lake, who is Chairman of the Board - some fine ?eople here doing a good job,I can tell you, for the present and future of Newfoundland -Robert Shave, Sam Harris, Ralph Billard, William Brushett, - MR. SIMMONS: Friend or foe, 'Alexr, friend- or foe? MR. ROWE: He does not have any foes. MR. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, one thing I am going to do here Mr. Speaker, for the rest of this session. I was sent in here by people to represent them in this House. AN RON. MEMBER: We all were. MR. CANNING: Yes, we all were, And we were all sent in to do a job in this House and to be listened to. Mr.

Speaker, when I get up in my seat I can assure you that I am not standing up to blow off bull or hurl insults at somebody or drag sombody's name

April 1, 1976, Tape 1642, Page 2 -- apb MR . C ANNI NG: into the House. That I did not come in here for. I have never done that and I do not intend to, SOME RON. '!EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CANNING: I came in here to represent ,the people of Placentia West. This is my twenty-fourth year representing them, and, Mr. Speaker, what I want from this House is what the people of Placentia West want from this House and I am going to demand that I get it, and that is, that I am going to be heard when I ~ ise in my seat. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . CANNING : Anytime, Hr.

Speaker, I am out of order I assure that I will bow to your orders. I am capable of ooing it. I do not know all the rules and I am capable of breaking them at any time 1 but I will sit in my seat and I will obey your rules. But there is one thing. As from this moment, the next time that I get up in this House to speak- I do not care who it is, if it is the Leader of the Opposition, or the Premier or anyone else who starts to mutter - if I am asked to sit down or yield I will do it. For a question I will do it.

If I am out of order I will sit down, but from now on if a person utters a word when I am speaki~g in this House I am just going to stop. And if he keeps uttering, Mr. Speaker, I will leave and I will go out and go up in the district and do better work up there in the district perhaps, do greater service, than to be in here wasting my time in the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (COLLINS): Order, please! The hon. member has made a strong plea for silence whilst he speaks. I am sure that hon. members will respect his wishes. The bon. the member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. CANNING: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I should like to finish those names of fine people. I do not know if it wil l be recorded or not but I would like to read their names in the House. They are doing a fine job, as I said, for the present and the future of Newfoundland. They are teachers , . guiding schools. I was down to Alex Hapgood - 4416

April 1, 1976, Tape 1642, Page 3 -- apb Ml,l.. · CANNING: that is a familiar name. It seems like an ol.d constituent of mine who IIIOVed up to,p:erhaps, Grand Bank or he could be in ·Burtn. ! guess he is in Burin, I knew where they were when they were in IllY di.111ttict. I know them all and they all know m,e, but they have left and we have so~ new people in 1110 I am not familiar with where they are at the moment - loloyd Thornhill, 44.17.

April 1, 1976 Tape 1643 lffi. CANNING: Captain B. Reader, Jake Nullius, r.harles Martin, Onslow Hillier, Thomas Pope, Hubert Barnes, Frank Banfield, Cyril Leaman, Nelvin Grandy anc1 George Senior. }'r. Speaker, I ask that this petition be laid on the table of the House and referred to the department t 0 which it relates. SOME llON . :fENBERS: Hear, hear! I'R . O:BE)U'S: l~ell said. :•JR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. IB-1 _CAI'T. HINSO!': ~~r. Speaker, I beg leave to present two petitions. As both petitions are pertaining to the same subject matter I will present them at the same time. Before doing so, Xr.

Speaker, I would like to just remark about the way in which some petitions are presented in this House pert£ining to other members districts. I was the culprit last year or the year before, I am not too sure - ~~. P-OBEP.TS: The victim. C:APT. HINSOR: The victim. l!R. ROBEP.TS : The culprit was the other fellow. CAPT . HINSOR: The culprit ~Jas the other feJ low, right. l•7hen the then member for Grand Falls, he did not have the deceney or the courtesy to mention that he ~~as going to present a petition from my district but he had the audacity to get up and present three, one after the other. So, Hr.

Speaker, that hon, gentleman,then as he wa:s,is no longer there. I am here, and I am still happy to present petitions from the district of Fogo!and I have two. 1~, . ROBERTS: Rear, hear! SO!'ffi HON. l>!EI{l)ERS: Hear, hear! SAPT. IHNSOR: I have two now, one from Tilting - MR. CROSBIE: You are the survivor. C.APT. WINSOR: - Survival of the fittest - containing eighty-four names, and one from Carmanville containing 106 names. XR • ROBERTS : You might say•seniority•was not enough. CAPT. •'INSO?.: That is right. The latter, ~tr. Speaker, Carmanville, A418

April 1, 1976 Tape 1643 IB-2 CAPT. WINSOR: is now becoming a very modern town and many young couples there are building new houses. Unfortunately for them they are heating their homes by electricity so much so now they wish they had not done it. However they are caught in this ever increasing electrical rate,and this was last Winter, SOliE of them have received bills up to $100 and more. So what is the hope for those fellows?

They are not men who are making big salaries, just average salary earners, and yet they find themselves now where it is going to take a great deal of their salary to keep their homes comfortable enough to live in. Nr. Speaker, I strongly support those two petitions and ask that they be received and laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which they relate. ~1R. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. 1m. HODDER: ~tr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 133 residents of the communities of Piccadilly and Ship Cove in the district of Port au Port. The prayer of the petition, ~!r. Speaker, is the same as the rest and I do not intend to say too much about it except to say that th:l.s is a rural area where the residents are not the wealtiest in the Province.

I think at the present time,unofficially,there is probably a '•0 per cent unemployment rate tl1ere~and many of the people there are part-time fishermen or farmers and many of them, their income is not nearly close to the rest of the Island's standards and those are the people who are hit hardest by these rates, Mr. Speaker. I have had many calls from constituents in this area. And as well on talking to the Light and Power Company in Stephenville I have found that they have had many requests to come out and check the meters because the people just could not believe that the rates could be so high.

As well those people on fixed incomes are finding it very, very difficult and I hope that the government will see fit and will truly realize,as I am sure they do,that this is a very serious problem

April 1, 1976 Tape 1643 I.B-3 tiR.. HODnER: and particularly serious for people who are perhaps not as lvell off as other areas of the Province . I ask that the petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. SO~!E llON. tiE~'BERS: !tear, hear! MR . SPEfll<ER: The hon . member for St. George 's. MRS. MCISAAC: ~·r . Speaker, I beg leave to present 11 petition on behalf of 116 r esidents of the Codr oy Valley in the district of St. George's and 274 residents of Port aux Basques in the dis trict of LaPoile. The prayer of the petition is silllilar to others presented in the House.

In commenting I would just like to say that I think from the number of petitions being presented that the people of ~ewfoundland are showing their concern and dissatisfaction . I sincerely hope that the covernment will take a sincere l ook at this proposal before allowing these incr eases to materialize . I ask, t'r . Speaker, tt.ac this petition be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. SOt!E liON • ~lE!IBRRS : !lear, hear! HR . SPEAKER: The hon . member for Fortune-Hermitage. 4.420

April 1, 1976 Tape 1644 PK - 1 MR. J. 'WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from the Community Council and other citizens of Rencontre East, Fortune Bay. The prayer of this petition, of course, is the same as the others, that they do protest very strongly the decision to increase the electricity rates charged by the government owned corporation, and that many people will su~ter considerable hardship if this increase is permitted to go on. Now these people in Rencontre - it is one of the smallest settlements, I suppose, and the most isolated in Newfoundland.

The income level is marginal, and they would suffer a great deal of hardship if any further demands are made on their income. I am sure this is well known by the House. And I would say that if we had saved some of the hot gas that is be.ing generated in the House it would keep the thermal station going in Holyrood for a week. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WINSOR: So I would say no more and ask that this peti~ion be tabled and presented to the department to which it relates. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support the petitions so ably presented by my colleagues, and particularly that one so ably presented by my hon. friend,the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow). I had not intended to support any more of those petitions, Mr. Speaker, simply because I know everything that could have been said has already been said. However, I would like to support those petitions in light of a situation that we witnessed last week.

In the process of supporting petitions presented by members of the Opposition,a member opp•stte made an attempt,and a very humo•ous one,to belittle the efforts of the Opposition in presenting petitions. He suggested that we •hould set up a competition between the P.C. Opposition of Nova Scotia and the official Liberal Opposition of Newfoundland, maybe 1,000 or 1,500 and let us see what happens. It is very humorous. It is very funny, but very ironical, Mr. Speaker, when that same night

April 1, 1976 Tape 1644 PK- 2 Mr. Flight: on the Watson Report, the Nova Scotia Power Commission and a concerned citizen of Nova Scotia,and tke increase in electricity rates in Nova Scotia was the subject. It was very ironical and not so funny. We heard on the Watson Report the Finance Minister of Nova Scotia admitted that electrical bills had gone from $50 to $200 in one year in Nova Scotia. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in making a humorous situation of it, in attempting to, you know, belittle the efforts of the Opposition in presenting these petitions,the hon. member compared the Nova Scotia situation with the Newfoundland situation. Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland was mentioned on four or five occasions in that programme, and one reference was . made that the only reason that Nova Scotia had to increase their electrical rates by almost 200 per cent was that Nova Scotia depended completely on oil for the generation of electricity.

And the minister,whether he knew what he was talking about or not, indicated that if Nova Scotia were in the same position as Newfoundland is in, then indeed there would not have been necessary to increase the electrical rates in Newfoundland. Well I would suggest, it is a well known fact that most of the electricity that have been generated in this Province is being generated by water power. The minister also referred to the Lower Churchill situation, Mr.

Speaker, and through his government's inability to negotiate with Quebec and Newfoundland and the Federal Government,getting power from Quebec, the Eastern Grid was talked about. But the fact is, Mr. Speaker, all these petitions are protesting the vicious increase that we have seen this past year in Newfoundland. And at the same time the minister has indicated that there is a freeze on, that tbe freeze will not necessarily stay on, that the consumers~in Newfoundland will be expected to pay for the electricity. He compared the situation to Nova Scotia. AN HON. MEMBER: Compared to what?

April l, 1976 Tape 1644 PK - 3 MI.. FLIGHT: I am aayillg he comp~ecl it to Nc>va Scotia. Mr. Speaker. I am serving notice ozu1C:h1s government that there is no way that the people of NewfoUildland can afford or will staJld for tl;lt :;type o£ iJlcreases ill electrical power ill NewfoUildlmd that the peop.le of Nova Scotia have stood for and obviously lri.il have to etiLild for. I support the petition~ Mr. ~peake.t. ·SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear!

April 1, J.07f;_ Tape 1645 Rll - 1 'ill. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Ste-phenville . NR. T<. McNEIL: I her. leave to present a petition on he half of the local district of Massey Drive. The prayer of the -petition is the same as the previous ones that went before. So I will not elaborate on them. AN RON . ~!F.HflF.R: Corner Brook. ''iR. HCNEIL: Hassey Drive is in Corner Jlrook, yes.

Ry nm• the p:overn- ment should reac.ize the seriousness of the electricity rate increases, I am sure that the peo-ple of the Province have spoken out, and that they Hill do all in their power to lower the burden of the electricity rate increases. So, f'r. Speaker, I ~dll not take any more time of the House. I ask that this petition be placed upon the table of the ilouse and rP.ferred to th~ nepartment to Hhich it re]ates. ~IR. SPF./1 KF.R : ' lR. P. P,QT,TF:: The han. member for Trinity-P.ay de Verde. 1:r. Speaker, I beg leave to present - SO~IF. ll()N. IIF."'!JlERS: Oh, oh! 11R._ SPJT.AKER: nrder, -please!

IIR • F'. ROIVE : - nine petitions, Sir, with exactly the same prayer as the other petitions that have been presented this aftrrnoon. So I will not elaborate on it. I think that all that can be said has been said. We can p;et into it on the estimates of ~lines and F.nergy.

I will simply refer to where these nine -petitions came from, Sir, and the number of people who signed the petition; The town of Point Leamington signed 1-y the tovm council of Point Leamington,wl-lich -presumably weans th11t the tmm of that particular area agrees "lith the petition: the local improvement nistrict of Peterview, Sir; the cotrrrnunity of h'oodstock vThich l1as - ancl in this case it is signecl hy 16!" people: thirty-eight people at large, seventy-nine people, Sir, no particular community attached to this; the I.ll.F..tiT. union local here in St.

John' s ; Helrose, Trinity Bay, 200 signatures attachen; the tmm of Victoria, 212 names attached; and Greens pond, Sir, 95 signatures attached. 4424

April 1, l'l7fi. HR. ROHE: Tape l6l1S RR - 2 Sir, I a sic that these petitions be placed upon the table of the House and ~eferred to the department to which they relate. ~m. SPRAKER: Order, please! Order! I would invite hon. members to extend their welcome to the Reverend Benjamin Mdaba from Kenya ~~ho i.s in the Speaker's gallery. SOMF. HON • NEffilERS : Hear, hear! Ill'.. SPEAKER: lffi, ROBERTS: The hnn. Leader of the Opposition. Hr. Speaker, I have four or five or six petitions that I would like to present, Sir.

In presenting them perhaps I could read just one brief reference from Beauchesne which I think is very relevant, citation 331 on page 256 of the edition we use, that "the right of petitioning the Crown and Parliament for redress grievances is acknowledged as a fundamental principle of the constitution,and has been uninterruptedly exercised from very early times." Now, Sir, that is what being done here today, and that is what has been done throughout the last couple of weeks in this session in a way it has never been clone before.

I really do not know ho•r many signatures have come in on the petitions which have heen presented. I certainly have not counted them all up. I doubt if anybody has.

Rut I would imagine there are,seriously,around 50,000 or 60,000 Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who have signed petitions, all of which were organized in the sense that in each case somebody had to take the bit of paper and go around door to door or ?Ut it up on a notice board and say sign if you feel this way, all of which were organized, all of •mich were genuine in that they represent the legitimate and proper and honest feelings of people who were entitled to express their feelings because they are citizens of this Province.

I am a little sorry today that gentlemen opposite choose to try to make it a partisan occasion. I think we have got away from that again now,and I hope we stay away from it. The Minister of Mines and Energy tells us his estimates will be called,which is good news,because it will give the House in Committee the opportunity to debate the matter which, of course, 1~e cannot do during the presentation of petitions, 4425

April 1, 1976 Tape 1646 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: Mr. Speaker, the petitions which I present come from - the first group are from the Northern Peninsula, three are from my own constituency, sixty-two people in the community of Anchor Point, which is on the St.

Barbe Coast in the district of the Straits of Belle Isle; 163 in the community of Main Brook,which is in Hare Bay on the Atlantic side, the ocean side of the district of the Straits of Belle Isle; and 261 from the communities of Cooks Harbour, Boat Harbour, Wild Bight, and the suburb of Cooks Harbour called Cape Norman, the site of the lighthouse and three or four families live out there, 261 people there. Then in addition, Mr. Speaker, there is a petition from the town of Hawkes Bay in the district of St. Barbe represented by the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations.

It is signed by, I am told,l62 residents of that community. The prayer of all of these petitions, Sir, is exactly and precisely the same. The prayer, and it has been well rehearsed in this House, well expressed, all I need to say, Sir, is that these people too do not wish to see the electricity rates increased unilaterally, arbitrarily,without explantion or without justification. They do not want to see them increased at all, of course, who does. They do not want to see them increased in the way in which the government went about it. The government may have changed their minds now, I hope so.

Of course, we will have the opportunity to debate that. Mr. Speaker, let me also present petitions which do not come with addresses on them, and I have checked Beauchesne, and our own precedents, and I can find no requirement that addresses be affixed to a petition. The requirement is that original signatures or marks be affixed. These are from citizens of the Province who have MR. MURPHY: Are they £ram Newfoundland? MR. ROBERTS: Yes, they are from Newfoundland. And I shall sign them in the way the gentleman from St. John's Centre thinks they are from outside. 4426

April 1, 1976 Tape 1646 PK- 2 MR. MURPHY: I have no idea where they are from. MR. ROBERTS: Well,they may be- Mr. Speaker, the mere fact I am presenting them indicates that I believe them to the best of my knowledge to be proper, and we can only present petitions from the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Mr. Speaker, lhe hon. gentleman - I know some of these people, Sir, and in any event the mere fact under our rules that a member presents a petition, Sir, is prima facie evidence that the petition is in order.

If the hon. gentleman wishes to challenge them, Sir, he kks the right and the duty,I would suggest to him,to appear before the Clerk of the House to get the petitions and then go on from there. We have been through that in this Rouse, Mr. Speaker. I think the han. gentleman was in the House when a petition was challenged. MR. MURPHY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. MURPHY: I never heard it before. Well,I can tell when it was challenged - I never heard of it before. HR. ROBERTS: Well the han. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: - gentleman may never have heard of it, I can remind him, Mr.

Speaker, since he wishes to be reminded,that it was' while he was sitting here, I am not sure if he was Opposition Leader or not at the time, while the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) was Premier, and a petition was brought in with respect to the district of Trinity South, and the late Captain Uriah Strickland was the member, and the petition had been taken up by citizens, by people,and there were considerable acrimonious controversy back and forth across the House. The gentleman from Twillingate got quite heated,as I recall it.

There was quite a lot of debate back and forth, not about the petition, but about the circumstances which gave rise to it. And among the allegations that were made at that time, was the fact that some of the signatures were not genuine. I do not recall what came of it. I have not looked it up. MR. HICKMAN: A police investigation was started. 44.27

April 1, 1976 Tape 1646 PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? MR. HICKMAN: The House ordered a police investigation. MR. ROBERTS: The Ninister of Justice, who I guess was thim Minister of Justice in a previous reincarnation, in the Buddhist sense, reminds me that a police investigation was ordered, I would have thought the police would have had better things to do, but in any event an investigation was ordered I assume it was carried out. AN RON. MEMBER: By whom? MR. ROBERTS: By the House. The House can do what it wishes. But this House, Mr. Speaker, which can do what it wishes can still do foolish things.

It once had a judge of the Supreme Court before the Rouse, .back what? 1830 or 1840, at some point. The only way out of that imbroglio, Your Honour, in case it should happen again, is the Governor dissolve the House. I'm.. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS) : On a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. Leader of the Opposition reminded us about Beauchesne. I prefer to go to our Standing Order 92 that every member offering a petition shall confine himself to a statement of the parties from whom it comes,,the number of signatures; an!l the material allegations.

The Standing Order here also provides that a person may only speak five minutes on a petition. The hen. Leader of the Opposition has managed to speak now for five minutes on something, but not presenting his petition. AN HON • MEMBER: Hear, hear ! MR. MARSHALL: My point of order, Mr. Speaker, is that his five minutes have now passed. He has not talked about the petition, so he has to take his seat. And certainly he is very out of order in what he is talking about because it has no relationship to the petition he has presented. He is getting into debates and this is not this period is for.

The petition period has already gone on for this period of time and it is driving everyone crazy. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, I thank the hen. gentleman. He is quite right. He has read the reference to Standing Order 92 correctly, and I regret if I was out of order. I was 44'28

April 1,1976 Tape 1646 PK- 4 Mr. Roberts: trying to deal with a point, I think a valid point,raised by the gentleman from St. John's Centre. As for the five minutes there were nine petitions here at five minutes each, that would give me forty-five. I have chosen,I think wisely,not to present them one at a time, because I think, you know, once is enough. And I had not intended to go into this disposition on petitions, but the hon. gentleman from St. John's Centre, I will not say led me astray, but helped to lead me astray. The petitions, I think, Mr. Speaker, are - MR. MURPHY: On a point of order, Sir. MR.

ROBERTS: Yes. Okay. I am sorry. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. MR. MURPHY : The point of order I raise, I understood the hon. Leader of the Opposition say that he did not know where they came from. Basically that was my understanding. There were no addresses as a community. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! I did not understand that a point of order had been raised prior to the one raised by the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) • MR. MURPHY: I am speaking on the same point of order, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (DR.

COLLINS): There were remarks made, but I do not think the point of order had been raised. In regards to the latter point of ordersthe hon. Leader of the Opposition has indicated he has wandered. This was clear Itthink, and I was about to intervene. In regard to time I estimate he has about a half a minute left. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I present them with whole-hearted support. I present the petitions, I would ask that they be received by the House and referred in the appropriate way to the department to which they relate, and I do hope, Sir, we get on to 4429

April 1, 1976 Tape 1646 PK- 5 Hr . Roberts: the Mines and Energy estimates today so: that we can debate these matters as I think they should be debated . Thank you very much, Sir . S OME HON . }1EMBERS: Hear, hear ! MR . SPEAKER (DR. CODLINS): The hon . Minister of Health . RON. H. COLLINS: Mr . Speaker, I have not found the occasion yet to rise and suppo r t the petition s which have been presented from day to day because there have been a lot of people doing that. I must say, Mr.

Speaker , that it r eminds me of our days when we were quite young down on the landwash,wh en the tide went out,with our bottles trying to ca tch tansies , one fellow would s ing out that he had ten tansies, another ~ellow wou~lll sing out that he had fifteen tansies , and someone else would yell out down in th e corner of the cove , I got fifteen , and I got a great big fatter one. Ray Guy used to call it , "The out harbour delights, arsing around down in t he landwash." I wonder 1~hat he would call this? 4430

April 1, 1976 Tape 1647 OBAL QUESTIONS: .JIR . SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. member for LaPoile. }m. NEARY: Yr. Speaker, I would like for the Minister of Justice to tell the House how many Rem• constables are in Churchill Falls at the present time. ~Ut. SPEAKER (nr. Collins): The hon. Minister of Justice. ~- rn.. HICK,'!IIN: Fifty-one. HR. NEAP.Y: I cid not hear that answer, Mr. Speaker. 1·'!'. HIOO~AN: Fifty-one. !!? • NEARY: Fift y-one. PD . ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ~'!'. :.T'r.lll:Ert (Dr. Collins): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. t'R.

ROTlERTS: ~ ~ y - question is supplementary to the one asked by IB-1 the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) but I would address it to the finister of Yanpower. Sir, let me preface it without a preface by saying nobody condones violence no matter what the cause. Could the minister, Sir, tell the House exactly what has happened at Churchill Falls and exactly where the matter stands? I know everybody in the Province is concernerl and anxious about the situation,and of course all we know are the fragmentary or incomplete news reports.

I think the media are doing their best to cover it but by its very nature it is a difficult story to obtain and to cover. r.ould the minister please tell the House exactly what lias happened and what is happening at Churchill Falls? ~ T.. SPEAY~ R (nr. Collins): The hon. ~ !inister of Y..anpower and Industrial Relations. MR. liAYNARD: ~!r. Speaker, there is a two part answer to that question. As to what is happenlng in the negotiations at this point :In time, there is no movement in the negotiations for settlement of the dispute.

As to what is happening with any other action at Churchill Falls,! would think that would be more appropriate for my colleague, the t ~in:!. ster of Justice,or my colleague, the Minister of Mines and Energy, to answer that question. 4431

April 1, 1976 Tape 1647 I:S- 2 I'lL NEARY: !.'r . Speaker, a supplement ary to the ~! inister o( !lines and 3nergy. :T.. r:.OBEr.TS: My question was re-directed. J!R . SPf./1~" (l'r . Collins): TI1e hon . •:inister of ''ines and energy . 1:1' . CPOSBIE: 1n referenc e to the question of the T.eader of the C'pposHion , "'-hac has happened in Churchill Falls yesterday, 'lr. Spe11ker , is certCJinly not 11 very pleasant situation . There has heen a great <ll':gree of l;mlessness , 4432

' . ...:!J April 1, 1976, Tape 1648, Page 1 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: and, of course, we can only go by reports from the site, but apparently yesterday morning there were some sixty ·to seventy people who were on strike on the picket line when the ~ager of the site accompanied by the controller drove to the site to go into the generating plant. Theyrushea their car - ­ MR. ROBERTS: Who are I they I? MR. CROSBIE: The sixty or seventy men involved rushed the car. They locked their doors.

The men involved then gathered around the car, they rocked the car, slashed the tires, kicked in the headlights,and spent some time tipping the car around, Luckily they had a radio-telephone device with them and were able to get the R.C.M.P. who came.and the people causing the difficulty then dispersed. After the tires were changed they were escorted back to the headquarters, the temporary headquarters of - MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: MR, ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: They being? Mr. Burlington and - The management people. Right.

They were escorted back to the temporary headquarters that they have in Churchill Falls while the strike is on, which is a trailer, I believe, in the town centre- same where there is a large trailer. They were escorted back to this headquarters, to the management's headquarters. The fifty or sixty or seventy people involved in these activities then went and surrounded the headquarters,shouting threats and the usual kind of thing that gets shouted, I presume.

They threw snowballs at the headquarters, they tore out the telephone line that enters the headquarters building, they slashed tires on cars parked in front of the building. Then after a while they left, they seemed to disperse from that scene. Soae of the occupants then, some of the management occupants of the headquarters went out to replace the tires on the cars. While they were out there so engaged the fifty or sixty or seventy men came back and jostled them and gave them, generally, a bad time, So they went back into the headquarters again~and the building was then again

April 1, 1976, Tape 1648, Page 2 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: surrounded. Every window in the buidling was smashed out by those surrounding it. MR. ROBERTS: Which building? MR. CROSBIE: The headquarters building, the trail~r that I have mentioned. MR. SMALLWOOD: This is the temporary headquarters? MR. CROSBIE: The temporary headquarters of the company's management. The telephone lines were torn out the second time - they had been replaced in the interim whiie the picketeers,or who~ver they are,wer~ gon~.

As I say, every window in the trailer was broken out and th~n rocks and snowballs and the like were thrown in through the broken windows. Twice the headquarters was rushed,but they managed to keep the doors shut from inside. There were R.C .M.P. on the scene but not in sufficient numbers to take any action. Their advice to the management personnel was that they could not interfer,they did not dare- not that they did not dare to interfer - MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: MR. HICKMAN: MR. CROSBIE: Not that they could not interfer . That they would not be wise or would not be - They did not have enough men.

There were not enough men there to handle the situation,so that if they attempted to interfer this would only result in a much worse situation, so their advice to them was to stay inside, This continued on during the day. During the afternoon there were - and by the way, the tires were slashed again and ~he cars were damaged - during the afternoon five more R.C.M.P. officers arrived at Churchill Falls and the R.C.M.P. then told them - I think that made a total of about fifteen there - that they felt it would be safe then to escort them out ffv;~ at a time.

They were escorted out five at a time and taken to their - MR. SMALL.WOOD: The management personnel were escorted out? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SMALLWOOD: From the temporary office? MR. CROSBIE: From the temporary trailer. 4434

April 1, 1976, Tape 1648, Page 3 -- apb MR., ROBERTS : They were under siege, were they? MR. CROSBIE: Well they had been under siege for most of the day, and instructed to stay inside.it was not safe for them to come out. They were escorted out then five at a time by the R.C.M.P. who escorted them to their homes. I think there were some twenty ~f them in this headquarters trailer. The shift that was in the plant, the shift of supervisors who were in the plant on the night shift could not get out in the morning. The morning shift could not get in because of these activities so they stayed inside the plant.

So as I say, around five o'clock or five-thirty they got home. Then that evening some sixty or seventy strikers and some of their wives - apparently their women - also marched through the town. They overturned garbage cans - MR. ROBERTS: That evening was last night? MR. CROSBIE: Last night, yes. They overturned garbage cans, they damaged some skidoos, did other damage to cars, they marched through the residential area where they - for example, in connection with the financial controller - they beat on his garage and made themselves generally a nusiance outside with threats and the like.

They marked •scab' on his car, and this kind of activity. That was done to many more houses of management representatives. 4435

April 1, 1976 Tope 1649 ITI-1 J'" P,OTif.P.TS: Were they company cars? Did the company own them? !m. CROSBIE: I am not sure who owns the cars. I guess they are both. Garbage was thrown around on all those locations. Skis outside ,,,ere taken and destroyed, th:ls kine\ of activity. This went on until around 10:00 P.M. in the evening when it quietened down. I think at one o 1 clock this morning the UCMP reinforcements arrived in there~and as my han. colleague says there are now fifty-one in on the site there and I think things are quiet there this morning.

There have been several statements made by the union representatives, ~·r. Speaker, ~vhich I am informed by the company are not correct. It is not true that a striker on a skidoo was struck by a co~pany car yesterday Dr the day before. There was an incident where a striker on a skidoo going along on his skidoo turned the vehicle over on his own. He was not struck by any other vehicle. He was found by t!te security people and taken in an ambulance to the hospltal facilities there where he made an accusation that a company vehicle had struck his skidoo and injured him.

This is confirmed by the RC!"P that there is absolutely no truth to that. So that is not the cause - I:P. S~~ALL\o!OOD: How do they know there is no truth? ''lL CROSBIE: They investigated and - ~'ll • S~'ALL HOOD: Any investigation, hmv c0uld they know? You cannot always prove a thing oid not happen. ~ ~-· CROSBIE: The thing did not happen. l-litnesses saw it. There were witnesses and they - SO}IE RON • }IF.'Ml!ERS : Oh, oh! t'R. !YELLS: There was no evidence to suggest that it dicl. ~. - CPOSJ\IE: 'lr.

Speaker, the point is that there is no evidence to suggest that this skidoo with a man 0n it ~laS struck by a car,~vhether company or otherwise.

April 1, 1976 Tape 1649 IB-2 "'R. SMAI..Lh'OOD: lie said it. Now he said it. MR. CROSBIE: Right. 'lR. S~!ALLHOOD: Well that is evidence. MR. CROSBIE: And there was contrary evidence that he was not struck ~y anyone, he overturned the skidoo himself. That is not the cause of any c:1ifficulty or trouble at the site. It is also not true, ~r. Speaker, that there are any scabs so-called working,operating the plant at Churchill Falls. Anyone who is working operating the plant is a member of management and not a member of the bargaining unit nor anyone doing work of the bargainine unit.

They are all supervisors or management personnel. There is only one man who arrived in there since the strike started 1~ho was not there before, and that was a gentleman hired from Ontario Jlydro, a line superintendent who was hired before the strike began and arrived there after the strike began. I think there may be four other. people from Montreal who are helping to operate the airport. There 1vas another incident involving a company employee who Has C'ln a skidoo and who was a::;saulted while on the skidoo going about h:l s work checking transmission lines, whatever the work is. In any event, ~•r.

Speaker, that is - MR. NEA,RY: ~"!'. CROSBIE: Hell, a company employee, a striker? Not a str.iker, a non-striker 0 you know, who ls still working for the company, 1'ho "-'RS on a skidoo and was assaulted yesterc:1ay. So this is \~hat is reported as being a general state of affa]rs at the site yesterday, ~:r. Speaker, y,·hich is most serious. Now the situation with respect to law and order and what is legal anc:1 proper is one issue. I do not think that any members of this han.

House 1dll disagree that the law must be maintained and the public security ancl property have to be - sm'E noN. ~'E vnr::n.s: Hear, hear! ><T> • • CROSili:C: -have to be protected,and that is most important. That 4437

t.prU l, 1"~76 Tape 16G~ l!,;-3 :')' . CROSBIE: applies whether there is a strike or a colleccjvc ba r ~;aining dispute on or not. Of course ~11 merbers of the Uousc 1 am sure ~int~in that positi~n . ~o the first requirement is for la~ and or der to \Je maintained . Tltc actions 1~hich 1 have mentioned of course are certainly Ulegal , and action wHl be taken in that connection. 1\s Car as the cl ispute het1~een the employer, CFLCo is concerned, al'ld t'te IBE\'l who are there on strike, negotiations "'ere held in f.t .

Jc:>lm ' s here about ten days ago ove r a 1:.11'0 or three or four clay perio<l . t\ll issues have been agreed excep t I.'Hh respect t o the question Clf pay and I think vacations. The cor.tpnny rJade 2 nee offer in t hat connection, And it was taken back by the union rep::csentatives to their l"embership ~:ho votec' not to vote on the matter at all but to continue "dth t heir clemand t h:tt the recommendations of the majority in t he Conciliation lloard 'teport should be implemented. t:o1~ that is the situation, ~ 'r.

Speaker. '~e all knnlo.' lo.'hat the legal position is, that the employees are entitled to go on strike , to net collectively ond 1dthdr1.1w t heir labour . They are entitled tO picket . There is an injunction issued by the Suprer.te Court on February 16 'Which provides that there should be no more than (our pickets at the entrace to the company site, to the cenerating station . Of course , aport from the injunction there are the ordinary laws and rules that apply ~tnd which forbid this l:ind of Activity . So as a 4438

April 1, 19~6 Tape no. 1650 Page 1 - mw Mr. Crosbie; · result of the request;as I understand it,of the man on the spot, the Minister of Justice arranged for more RCMP to be sent in to the site yesterday and last night. He was requested to do that and arranged it and it was certainly necessary, and as far as I know today matters are quieter. So, Mr. Speaker, there are two situations.

One is with the collective bargaining dispute, which as long as we permit strikes in this Province or in this country, there is no way of prohibiting it or stopping it or forcing it to be stopped unless some extraordinary circumstances occur that might dictate that. But, Mr.

Speaker, I think, on behalf of the government I certainly believe it should be made clear that no government can permit this lind of activity no matter in what circumstances do occur in this Province, and this government does not intend to permit it to occur, and I am sure that the Minister of Justice will see that enough RCMP patrolmen remain there -- as long as they are needed until this very unfortunate situation cools down or the situation corrects itself. But I am told by the people involved that it was a da