Manitoba Hansard — 19 March 1975 (Sitting 18, 30th Legislature, 2nd Session)

30-2-18

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, March 19, 1975 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 435 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honour able members to the gallery, where we have 25 people of the Adult Basic Education Group of the Red River Com munity College. This group is directed by Mr. Harvey. This College is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Logan, the Deputy Speaker. On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today.

Normally the Chair doesn't indulge in any of the things that go on in the Chamber except to rule on procedure, but today since I have been donated a cigar by the Honourable First Mini ster, I'd like to extend felicitations and congratulations to him. The Honourable Mini ster of Labour. ANNOUNCEMENT HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker , if I may also have the permi ssion of the House, as I suppose the old grandpa of the House, the oppor tunity of following your congratulations to the First Min ister.

It isn't too often that I have found in the history of this great province of ours that a pre siding Premier has produced, or aided in the production of another citizen for the Province of Manitoba. I understand that this morning somewhere along the hour of 3 o'clock in the morning my friend and colleague and our Premier was awakened - and I'm not going to say ''rudely awakened" - but something was kicking around at that particular time with the net result that "our Ed" as we affectionately call him had to get up and take his good wife Lily to a hospital.

And I guess it's a good job that settlement was made priorly insofar as the nurses were con cerned. Then somewhere around about 4 o'clock this morning, so I am info rmed, Eddie beca me once again the proud father of a son. We wish to, I say particularly to Lily and to the new offspring, every success for the future. I understand that they are doing very well.

As far as the father is concerned I leave it to you who can observe him as how - on my left - and use your judgment as to how he has rebounded from the fact that he is one of the very few Premiers of the Province of Manitoba that during his office has become the father of an addi tional member in his family. I would like, Mr. Speaker, if I could, take this opportunity on behalf of the Government and Caucus, and I am sure with the good will of all members of the Assembly, to present to the new father a little rose as an indication of our affections towards him and our affection towards his wife and his family.

And I don't know, and history will record, not me, I don't know whether or not this will be the last occasion that we will be able to extend our congratu lations to Mr. and Mrs. Schreyer as to their productive capacities or their desire, but I do, Mr. Premier , want to present to you on behalf of all of us this little rose in a token of appre ci ation of the fact that you statistically have increa sed the population, through your wife, of the population of Manitoba. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Officia l Opposition) (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, with leave, I would like to follow the Honourable Minister of Labour. There are not too many occasions, Mr. Speaker, in which there is agreement on this side with the remarks of the Honourable Minister of Labour, and while I would say that there would not necessarily be agreement on the way in which the congratulations are conveyed and there are some statements that he made that we would probably not make on this side in congratulating the Honourable First Minister and his wife, I would like to on our behalf express to him and to his wife congratulation s for the blessing that they received.

As the Minister of Labour so aptly put it, there has been an inc rease in the population of Manitoba, and as the First Minister knows the blessing is followed by the additional blessing of another tax deductibility, and in these days of high taxes throughout Canada I think that this is an additional welcome blessing. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank

436 March 18, 1975 ANNOUNCEMENT (MR. SCHREYER cont 'd) •.... you, sir, and honourable members of the House for allowing the normal proceedings to be temporarily deferred in order to make reference to the fact that my wife and I were blessed with the arrival of a son early, much earlier today. I guess what has been said by my colleague and by the Leader of the Opposition has some double entendres to it, I attach some amusing significance to the fact that the Minister of Labour was the one to intercede in the discussions here.

But while he is one to have ministeria l jurisd iction over many things I didn 't think it extended so far as to include that kind of labour, sir. I would very very quickly like to thank honourable members, the Leader of the Opposition for their remarks and advise the House that I'm well aware of the Leader of the Opposition's penchant or inclination for statistical analysis, I was going to say statistical manipulation but I'll stay with stati stical analysis.

I suppose he attaches some significance to the fact that the second last born arrived at 6 lbs. 9 oz. and today 's born arrived at 9 lbs. 9 oz. , so that infla tion is affecting everything. I know that usually it 's the custom if pas sing around cigars to pass around a note indicating whether it's a son or a daughter and the name, but we have some prob lem with the name. It was intended to call the boy Luke Stuart Lawrence, but since today is St. Joseph's Day we may have to revise that slightly. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the honourable members for assi sting me in my brief departure from the rules.

I think inflation set in with the speeches as well to what I said. Pres enting Petition s; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Pres enting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Health. TABLING OF REPORTS HON. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (M inister of Health and Social Development) (St. Boniface): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to lay on the table of the House the Annual Report of the Department of Health and Social Development for the year ending December 31, 1974; and also the Annual Report of the Manitoba Lotteries Commissi on ending March 31, 1974. And I might inform the House that copies will be circulated. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Tourism and Recrea tion. HON. RENE TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism, Recrea tion and Cultural Affairs) (Springfield): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the Guidelines for Development of Public Library Service in the province by Professor Harry E. Newsom. Copies will be made available to all members of the House. And equally table an Order for Return of the House No. 96 dated March 15, 1974. MR . SPEAKER: Any other Ministeria l Statement or Tabling of Reports? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. The Honourable Attorney-General. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk) introduced Bill No. 3, The Extra provincial Custody Orders Enforcement Act; and Bill No. 13, The Fatality Inquiries Act. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorne y-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I should have mentioned that the Honourable the Administ rator of the Government of the Province of Manitoba having been informed of the sub ject matter of this Bill recommends it to the House. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Question s. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health and Social Develop ment.

I wonder if he can indicate why the Manitoba Medica l Associa tion were not advised until March 13, 1975 that the Government had undertaken a study beginning in July of 1974 of geriatric services in Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DE SJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I don't know if it is the custom of letting the public know every time you're starting on a study. I might say to my honour able friend that promi nent members of the medical profession have assi sted us in this study .

March 19, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPIVAK: Yes, I wonder if the Minister can tell the House whether the Manitoba Health Services Commissi on had approved the recommendations made in the study? 437 MR . DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I'd like my honourable friend to be a little more specific because there were different studies made and I think my honourable friend will have to be a little more specific. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister is in a position at least to indicate whether the Manitoba Health Services Commi ssion have approved the recommendations in the study and the announcement that he has made. MR.

DESJARDINS: I don't know if it's required that there should be a formal approval by the Manitoba Health Services Commis sion on a policy that has been determined by the Cabinet. I know that they've been aware of it, I know that senior staff have sat on the com mittee and I know that certainly as Chairman of the Manitoba Health Services Commis sion, I had ini tiated the study. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Another question to the Minister of Health and Social Development.

Can the Minister inform the House whether or not the contractual arrange ment made between the Manitoba Health Services Commis sion and the doctors (I think he's aware of that arrangement) stated that the changes such as those proposed in the study are to be subject of discus sion between MMA and the Commissi on? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I think my honourable friend is talking about the Con sultative Committee of the Commissi on and the doctors.

Many items are brought in at this committee both by the members of the MMA and members representing the Manitoba Health Services Commis sion, but at no time was it stated, or is it the intention that this committee will have power of veto or decide what policy this government will bring in in the field of health, and I think that this should be made quite clear. MR. SPIVAK : Yes, to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Why was there no consultation between MMA and the Commis sion with respect to announced policy changes in connection with the geriatric services in Winn ipeg? MR .

DESJARD INS: Because we felt that the best place to get expertise on this would be to go to the geriatricians, and we did exactly that. I think that it was clear that we talked to the three best, and maybe the only three geriatricians in Winn ipeg. There was a meeting by the Commissi on who made certain recommend ations to the Cabinet and to myself.

The Commis sion as well as the members of this committee met with the, what I like to refer to as the Winnipeg Bed Utilization Committee, and that Bed Utilization Committee was set up by the Commis sion and the MMA were invited to have a member of their organization and he certainly participated, and was part of this committee, and then of course he learned of the recommenda tions of the Commis sion when the administra tors of the different hospitals and the medical directors of the different hospitals were inform ed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.

R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Labour and ask him whether in view of the serious industrial unrest afflicting the provin ce at the present time, would the Minister of Labour call the Industrial Relations Committee of this Legislature into meetings to examine the situation and explore methods of dealing with it, and would he invite representatives of organized labour to appear before the committee? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

I want to share with the apprehensions of my honourable friend, the Member for Fort Garry in sofar as the climate at the present time in indu strial relations is concerned. I did announce publicly that I was prepared to hear consulta tions, or hear representations by the various components in industrial relations and as a result I sent around to all members of the Assembly requests for changes in our labour relations field of endeavour for their consideration.

It would be my intention as soon as possible to have a conside ration made of the proposals for changes in the Labour Relations Act and also the very important point raised by my honourable friend considered by the Committee on Industrial Relation s. I am not satisfied and I think that I have indicated this with the clima te prevailing at the present time and being of that opinion, I will give due consideration to the point raised by my honourable friend . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister.

438 March 19, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, in recent date, I believe yesterday or the day before, the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition asked whether the matter of Schmidt Cartage Limited had been brought before Cabinet in April of 1973 . I indic ated at the time that I was reasonably certain that it had not but that I would check.

Upon checking, I am advised that the sequence was as follows: At the Board Meeting of the Com munities Economic Development Fund, in March of 1973, the board agreed that the business warranted participation by the Fund but that clarific ation was required in view of the position of one of the directors as being a prospective borrower, being part of the company, the applying company. The Chairman of the Fund, accordingly, referred the matter to my colleague the Minister responsible for the Communities Economic Development Fund who quite properly immedia tely referred to

Section 17, subsection (3) of the Fund's legislation which prohibited any director from being a borrower from the Fund. And accordingly that was done. The matter was not presented to Cabinet and cer tainly not by the general manager or the assistant general manager. And I believe this does therefore respond specifically to the question asked by the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, a question to the First Minister. You refer to a meeting between yourself and the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources on this matter?

The matter was discussed . . . MR. SCHREYER: A meeting of the Board of Directors ... MR. SPIVAK: Then the First Minister is indic ating there was no presentation by the Manager or the Assistant Manager to any members of the Cabinet concerning this? MR.

SCHREYER: I have here the communication or memorandum signed by the general manager of the Fund indica ting very clearly and specifica lly that when the matter came before the board of directors of the Fund, there was an inclination to grant the loan but it was realized that there may be a problem beca use of the po sition of one of the members of the board of directors. Accordingly the matter was referred to the Minister responsible for the Communities Economic Development Fund, and I'm quoting, "who immedia tely referred to

Section 17, sub section(3) of the Fund 's legislation ." And accordingly the matter was taken back by the board and reconsidered. And the communic ation goes on to state, "to my knowledge the is sue was not presented to Cabinet and certainly not by myself or the assistant general manager. " MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mine s, Resources and Environmental Develop ment) (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, just on a point of clarification. I advised the House this before and I will repeat the advice.

That the chairman advises me that he asked me whether a board member could make a loan. I told him that that could not be done. I don't recall the specific conversation but when the question was put to me it wasn't put with regard to any loan, it was a specific question as to whether a board member could make a loan. The matter of Schmidt Cartage, the Thompson loan, Lamirande, Thompson making a loan, was not put to me, but merely whether a board member can put a loan. And even that, Mr.

Speaker, escapes my recollection, but I indicated last year that they indicated that they asked my advice on the question, not on the loan. And the specific terms of the loan were never put to me, Mr. Chairman, prior to the then Member for Thompson asking me whether a loan had been made to Ben Thompson. The answer to that which I believe was a memo to the Premier who was asked the question was my first knowledge of the loan, the amount of the loan and how the loan was made. MR. SPIV AK: .. . I'm correct, and I want to use the words if I can of the Premier.

He said that the matter was then further discussed by the board. I wonder if he could indic ate the disposi tion that the board made as a result of that discus sion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well no, I couldn't, Mr. Speaker, not being a member of the board, I couldn 't indicate what disposition was made of it. I thought, sir, that this communic ation is very clear in terms of answering my honourable friend's question.

I feel completely satisfied upon perusal that everything - the sequence of events clearly indicates that all procedures were properly followed, and it is also very specific that the general manager or the assistant general manager certainly did not present the matter to Cabinet, the matter was not presented to Cabinet, and I felt that that answered the question. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, to the First Minister. Is he indic ating to the House that he did not

March 19. 1975 439 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) •...• know at any time the disposi tion that was made at that second board meeting in connection with this loan? MR. SCHREYER: Well that is right, sir. Asking one to search one's memory back two years, but this memorandum does indicate that neither the general manager nor the assistant general manager presented the matter to Cabinet. I go further to indicate that I have no recol lection whatsoever that the matter was ever presented to Cabinet. There was a referral to the Mini ster responsible and he quite properly referred them to

Section 17 and all that it implies. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. I wonder if he can indicate to the House that after a request was made to determine whether under that particular

section a loan could go to a director, he had any discus sion with any of his officials that the loan could go to someone else possibly related but not to the individual as a director? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, not at all, certainly not. I've indica ted, Mr. Speaker, that even though I don't recollect the chairman coming to me, that I accept the fact that he asked me, but he asked me with regard to a bland question, without names, without reference to a loan, without reference to a company, without reference to a subsequent loan.

He asked me the question, can a loan be made to a director of a company and I showed him the section. And I recall this, Mr. Chairman, only beca use the chairman told me he did this , and I believe him. But with regard to a loan to Ben Thompson or Lamirande or the amount, Mr. Speaker, I know, as I am standing here, that I had absolutely nothing to do with that loan, because, Mr. Speaker, if I was advised of the loan beforehand, the chairman would advise this House that my discre tion was not asked, if it was given it might have been entirely different.

The substantive posi tion at that time was that the board had the authority to make any loan under $75, OOO, and I'm advised by the Chairman of the Board that everything that was done with the legal advice of the Board's counsel. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Yes. My question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. When he refers to the Chairm an, you're referring to Mr. Parasiu.1':, that's the only communic a tion. You did not have any communic ation with Mr. Jones or Mr. Hanly on this matter? MR. GREEN: None whatsoever, Mr.

Chairman, until after the matter was raised in the House, and then I don't even specific ally recall talking to them about the Thompson Cartage loan. I'm aware, Mr. Chairman, that after the advice that they say they got from me, that they proceeded to deal with the matter by having a new loan application, the chairman proceed ing to exercise his responsibility which he felt was with the concurrence of the board members in granting the loan and the board gratifying the loan.

All of which I understand was done with the advice of the solicitor for the Fund and which information was more clearly communic ated to me sometime in the Fall of this year. Mr. Speaker, I was asked a question with regard to Mr. Hanly. Mr. M. D. Hanly apparently resigned from the Fund in January of 1975 to take up a posi tion with the Federal Department of Industry and Commerce in Ottawa. I understand that he was offered a position, that in his view it more suited his long-term objectives and that he took the position.

I am unaware and have not been advised of any side issues affecting this termination . . . . asked a question, Mr. Speaker, relative to the Chipboard Pl ant in Sprague. I'm advised that a settlement was made with regard to the fire claim , that the settlement was in the amount of $950 , OOO. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN (Rhin eland) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Health and Social Developmento My question relates to the Interim Report on the Health Sciences Centre and the report of the Special Committee on Geriatric Services.

Has the Minister tabled this report? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. BROWN: A supplementary question to the same Minister . Can the Minister now table this report? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, it's not my intention to table that report because I think it is an in-House document. If my honourable friend would like to see it, I could provide it for him.

440 March 19, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. In view of the government's pledge in the Throne Speech to improve telephone service, I'm wondering if the Minister can tell the House if anything is being done to improve services on rural lines where there is as many as seven parties on one line, and if it's the intention of the government to extend •.. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I believe a question of that nature could more readily be answered under the Estimates.

The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable the Minister of Education . Can the Minister advise the House whether the spring examination papers at the Univers ity of Manitoba have been prepared or whether they still remain to be prepared ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education) (Burrows): Mr. Chairman, my dep art ment does not prepare the examination papers for any of the universities and I think that that question could more properly be addressed to the universities. MR . SHERMA N: Mr.

Speaker, if I may put a supplementary to that question. The objective I'm attempting to attain is an answer to the question whether or not the preparation of those papers hangs in the balance of the unresolved labour dispute on the campus at the present time. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, regardless of what the honourable member's objective may be, the responsibility for the preparation of examination papers is still that of the univer sity. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-R ussell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russ ell) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question to the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. Several days ago I asked him a question about a meeting of the Municipal Board. He told me he would attempt to get the answer. I was wondering if he had that answer now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR .

PAWLEY: If the honourable member is referring to the subject matter of the Wanless Trailer Court, and the possibility of a Municipal Board hearing in The Pas in regard to that particular matter, I gather there will be a hearing in view of the fact that there have been objections filed apparently with the Municipal Board. MR. GRAHAM: Yes. Could the Minister indicate the date of that hearing? MR. PAWLE Y: I would have to obtain the date information for the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKE NZIE (Roblin): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. I wonder if the Honourable Minister can advise the House if the Federal Government consulted him in any way regarding the new rate schedules that are advertised now for the historical park known as Lower Fort Garry. MR. SPEAK ER : The Honourable Minister of Tourism. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, the responsible Federa l Minister has not consulted me. Officials in Ottawa could have consulted officials of the Department, of which I am not aware of. I could say, Mr.

Speaker, it 's very seldom that we in turn would consult the Federal Minister or his official when an increase or decrease is contemplated in fees here. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Mines. ANNOUNCEMENT - BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the House will let me announce some meetings for committees. The Committee on Economic Development will meet next Thursday. Mr. Speaker, they will also meet next Thur sday, to consider the report of the Manitoba Development Corporation. I would like the Committee on Public Accounts to re-meet on Tuesda y at 10 o'clock.

The Hydro, that's the Committee on Utiliti es, to meet on April lst and April Sth, and if necessa ry on April 15th.

March 19, 1975 441 ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister in charge of Manitoba Housing and Renewal, and ask him if he would inform the House if Misawa Homes has met all the contractual arrangements with Manitoba Housing and Renewal? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister for Urban Affairs) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I have to take that question as noti ce. MR. BANMAN: A further question, Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. I wonder if he could inform the House as to whether the Manitoba Development Co rporation has pulled out of the joint prefabrication house building venture with the Japanese company, Misawa Homes. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the MDC is and has been in the course of discussing the nature of its relationship with Misawa Homes Limited. Those discussions are still under way. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Highways, and this is not a

preamble, Mr. Speaker, I don't want to get into a . . . I wonder if he could tell us or tell the House if he could give us a breakdown on highway infractions between Unicity Winn ipeg and Rural Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That question would be better under the Minister's estimates. Order please. Order please. Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader. • • . • • continued on next page

442 March 19, 1975 ORDERS OF THE DAY - GOVERNMENT BILLS MR, GREEN: Mr, Speaker, I wonder if you would call Bill No, 7 to start with and then follow with Bills Number 2 and 6. MR . SPEAKER: Thank you. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek on Bill No. 7, second reading. BILL NO . 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY MR . J . FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like at this time, Mr. Speaker, to congratulate you .

I did not take the opportunity to speak during the Throne Speech debate, so I would wish you all the co-operation that the members can give during the coming session, and I know that you will handle the House in your usual efficient way. Mr, Speaker, this is Bill No, 7, which is the Interim Supply Bill, which allows the government to carry on the proceedings of the province or the financial proceedings of the province so they can pay their bills and keep going until the estimates and final budget is finished, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say there is one thing that concerns me at the present time with my own constituency regarding the spending of money, and one of them is that the problem at the present time on Sturgeon Creek is one which can become very serious if the province does not take into consid eration the report which was presented to the Ci ty, and I am sure it has been presented to the province, and I don't know, Mr. Speaker, whether it's gone to the Minister of Urban Affairs or whether it has gone to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

Itts regarding the increase or larger bridges that must be put over Sturgeon Creek at Ness Avenue and Portage Avenue, and I believe the City has said it will cost a million three in their report. Mr. Speaker, it's all very well to say that this may be a City problem as far as the spending of money is concerned, but the province does have some responsibilit y in this regard with these bridges.

The province is presently draining many acres of land north of Sturgeon Creek in the Woodlands area in the constituency of my colleague from Woodlands, and this water is all running down through Sturgeon Creek through my constituency which is blocked off with small culverts on Portage Avenue.

Now as much as I like to have anything that may come from my colleague from Lakeside constituency, I don1t want all that water which is going to be dammed up on Portage Avenue because of culverts which are too small, .Portage Avenue is a federal road and provincial road and the province has a responsibility to do something about it . Mr. Speaker, in listening to the speeches that were made on the Throne Speech debate, I noticed a very very serious problem with the honourable members opposite regarding the financial spending and financial problems of this province.

And the serious problem is that they do not take the spending of money seriously . They actually were kibitizing and laughing while one of the members on this side of the House was talking about the auditor's report and he was pointing out some areas of the auditor's report, Mr . Speaker, that showed absolute mismanagement, absolute bad administ ration on the side of the government, and the honourable members on the other side took the opportunity at that time to snicker about it, and they thought that this was not really a serious problem, As we noted in the paper today, the auditor has mentioned, Mr .

Speaker, that there is over $500 million spent by this government which does not come under the auditor, which I think is a serious thing in itself. But to take lightly an auditor's report which does point up some mismanagement, bad admin istration on the side of the government is something that1s hard to fathom; and if they want some constructive criticism, Mr.

Speaker, which is what all the members seem to want on that side, the constructive criticism is take it seriously because it's the people's money you're spending and you're not there to play monopoly with it, it's no game, And when the auditor points up these things I think it is worth more than snickers in this House. I had a little disappointment in the Premier's speech regarding the auditor's report and the spending of the money of the province, Mr.

Speaker, in that he referred to the auditor1 s report the same as the auditor's report in Ottawa, which would excite members greatly because there were some things wrong. Quite frankly, I can see where the Minister is trying to - I won't use the word "cover up", but sort of hopefully get people to take lightly the auditor's report because it is an embarrassment on the government. But if we are going to grant money at the present time, if we are going to grant money at the present time to this government, I

March 19 , 1975 BILL NO. 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'd) .•.. think we have to pay much more serious attention to the auditor•s report other than it does create a bit of a problem when it's presented in Ottawa. 443 Mr. Speaker, during the debates that I heard when the House was opened, we had Saunders Airc raft come up many times.

And here again we have a situation when we are going to use public money again to go into busine ss, and we keep weakly putting more public money into Saunders Aircraft, and when we vote for Interim Supply every time we have to meet the payroll there I•m sure some of that money will be going to that use. --(Interjection)-- Well, Mr. Speaker, that is quite true, as the Premier has said, W s current money, but again we•re talking about moneys of the province being used and spent in different arenas. Mr .

Speaker, there• s one thing about Saunders that I want to put on the record and keep very straight because the Premier keeps insist ing that the Federal Government should put more money into Saunders Aircraft. Mr. Speaker, there is one thing that has to be remembered in this House, and it's been said before.

The Minister of Labour, the Minister of Industry and Commerce, the Member from Minnedosa, the Federal Member from Marquette, many members of this House, and I don•t know how many exactly, but many members of the unions of this province who were worried about the aircraft industry in this province took a plane to Ottawa back in 1971, and in that meeting the Minister, Mr. Macdonald, Mr. Richardson, the Minister for Labour at that time, Mr . Mackasey, and the Minister from Newfoundland who was the Minister of Transport at the time, Mr .

Jamieson - and the Member for Charleswood also tells me he was at that meeting - and at that meeting Mr. Jamieson, the Minister of Transport, told everybody at that meeting that the Aerospace industry was in trouble. He was having problems in Ontario with the larger companies. He sincerely said he would do everything he possibly could to help that industry.

He said he saw many years of trouble for that industry, and he spoke very honestly to everybody; and the Minister of Industry and Commerce was there and the Minister of Labour was there, and they came back and they obviously didn•t tell the Premier that the Aerospnce industry was in trouble because this Government turned around and went into the Aerospace industry and started to manufacture aircraft . After being told it was one of the industries that has been in more trouble than most industries have ever been in Ca nada.

And for the Pr emier to com e along now and say that I would like the Federal Govern ment to put money into an industry after he has been told that industry is not working well and the Fed eral Government is having money ... is just strange to me. In fact, if the First Minister is going to continue on that trend he had better stand up and produc e in this House some promises and arrangements he had with the Fed eral Government whieh would logically say we can spend over $30 million up to now. Mr.

Speaker, I•m informed by the Member from Charleswood that he was not at that meeting, but l assure you that the Member for Minnedosa was there as the President of the Chamber of Commerce at the time and many of the Federal MLAs attended that meeting. But, Mr. Speaker, the fact that Saunders is failing because the Federal Government won•t come in it just won•t wash. The First Minister has got to have better reasons than that for the expenditures at Saunders Aircraft. Mr. Speaker, the spending of money and the losses in Autopac have been mentioned many times.

I would like to relate a story that the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources has brought forth on many many occasions. Not many. He has a better memory than I, he could probably tell me exactly how many. But he always used to relate the story of the President of Portage Mutual who said, 11If you had 25 percent of the business how well would you do"? 11If I had 50 percent of the business would you make a profit and how well would you do"? "If I had 75 percent of the business would you make a profit"?

And then when he asked him if he had 100 percent of the business how it would go, the Manager said, 111 don•t know that it would go too well" - you might have to get the words right here but he said, 11! don•t know, but we would have a tendency to become complacent and we might not make a profit." Now, Mr.

Speaker, I can only say to the Minister that he has got 100 percent of the business and he should have listened, he should have listened to the Manager of Portage Mutual, because I assure you that this Government is running Autopac on the basis of having 100 per cent of the business and being very complacent, and their service is getting bad and their relationship with the people is getting bad, and their advertising is such that it is not factual. Mr.

Speaker, the rates of Autopac are going up continually as we said and for the Minister of Autopac to get up in this House and suggest that, you know, that 2 percent increase or

444 March 19, 1975 BILL NO. 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. F, JOHNSTON cont•d) •••• 2 percent tax on gasoline is not really there to subsidize Autopac is just ridiculous, Mr. Speaker, when the Autopac Bill was passed all of us on this side of the House were disappointed, Many people in this province were disappointed, many people lost their busi nesses. It was a drastic day but never in our worst nightmares did we ever believe that Autopac would be an industry that would cause inflation. Inflation in rates is one thing, increase in rates is inflationary, Mr.

Speaker, but to turn around and put 2 cents on gallons of gasoline in this province is an inflationary thing in itself. Produce coming back and forth to this city, people going on holidays, even cutting your lawn, Mr. Speaker, is now going to go to the support of Autopac, which is inflationary. If you•re going to buy a gallon of gasoline and have 2 cents go on it for Autopac, I say everybody in this province while they•re out enjoying themselves cutting their lawn, look at the cars going by because you•re subsidizing it right then and there.

Mr, Speaker, Autopac•s relationship with people is just another ridiculous thing. I have a lady in my constituency, she•s over 65; if she did not work three days a week and make her self an extra $250 that lady would probably qualify, and I•m sure would receive help from the province and Federal Government. She has a car and she drives it to work three days a week. She drives it in the wintertime because she would have to transfer at Ferry Road and Portage, But now that she drives that car to work three days a week she pays $30. 00 more in insurance. That is what you support and like in Autopac?

That lady over 65 ! This was the type of thing that this government said when they brought in Autopac would be wiped out, the unfairness to people. You know, I can remember very clearly saying to a man in the insurance business, you know, some of this you brought on yourselves I said. I know a girl, a business gir11who drove one of the first Mustangs that ever came out, drove it for two years at a regular rate and three years later got charged sports car rates. And I said, "How do you justify that?" to him.

I said, 11How do you justify putting up that rate on that six cylinder car for a girl that drives back and forth to work?" Well they said, 11Sports cars have got to be in a different classifica tion." This was the thing that the Autopac was going to cure, and now we have sports cars in another specification, all paying more money the same as the private people. Mr. Speaker, it's rather disappointing, it's rather disappointing that these things are happening after some of the remarks that were siad during that Autopac debate.

The unfair ness to people which private industry was pressing upon them would be all cured by Autopac. I don•t really pay much attention to the advertising of Autopac and I get very very disappointed when I see money spent like this. This little brochure, misleading as it is. And as a matter of fact, Mr, Speaker, it was brought to my attention by one of my constituents and apparently he wrote Mr. Rogers, the Combines Investigation Act, Prairie Region, sent a copy to Mr.

Bertrand, Director of Investigations and Research, he brought to my attention that Autopac reduces - from this little book, Financial Post: 11Autopac Reduces Costs." And I•m sure you all know what was in the Winnipeg paper. I•m sure you all know that the

article in the Winnipeg paper, and I know that nobody likes the Winnipeg paper, and it's been .. . on the government side, they keep talking about it, but a gentleman pointed out that this particular article, this particular

article was listed, was listed from an

article in the Financial Post and was purposely put in there to mislead. Mr. Speaker, just for the record I•d like to read something: The Combines Investigation Act of Canada,

Section 37. 11Publication of false advertisements. (1) everyone who publishes or causes to be published an advertisement containing a statement that purports to be a state ment of fact but that is untrue, deceptive or misleading1or is intentionally so worded or arrang ed that it is deceptive or misleading, is guilty of an indictable offence and is liable to imprison ment for five years if the advertisement is published: (

a) to promote directly or indirectly the sale or disposal of property or any interest therein; and (

b) to promote a business or commercial interest." Mr. Speaker, I certainly hope the Federal Government looks into that. I want to see what the great Federal Government will do when Big Brother Government starts to do misleading advertising with the people. And, Mr. Speaker, once you get that kind of tripe presented to you by a company, you really can•t have much confidence in them from then on. The advertising and the comments and the complete confliction surrounding Autopac is

March 19, 1975 445 BILL NO. 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'd) •••• one, Mr. Speaker, that no business could get away with; nobody on that side of the House or this side would deal with a company that has so many conflicting reports about rates and everything that goes about it. They would just ignore it, they1d say, 11That1 s a bad company ". And I think, Mr.

Speaker, it's time the Premier told the Minister of Corporate and Consumer Affairs to get to work and start doing his job in this government and start looking over this kind of advertising and saying to some of the Ministers within this government that you can1t do that. Or is he there just to approve the misleading advertising that comes out? Mr.

Speaker, there has been much said on urban renewal in this province, there has been much said by everybody regarding the core area of Winnipeg, and I congratulate the government for looking at it, I only say that I'm sorry the government ruined probably the only good basis of people to work with as far as urban renewal is in this province. You now are going to go in and fix up the core area. You now are going to go in and buy all the property and spend the money and make the decisions. Thatis what you are going to do. And who have you discussed it with? I•ll tell you, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister over there may say the City, but the structure they have in Winnipeg is such that the Aldermen at one end of town are not that concerned about the other end of town because W s a structure that you put in that is not working. If you had a regional government situation that you had before that had charge of the urban renewal as far as the Winnipeg area is concerned, you would be laughing and you'd have a good group to work with. But you ruined all that.

You ruined the regional government and, Mr, Speaker, I have a report here regarding costs of cities, it's 1975 Future Growth of Saskatoon and .its Regional Government. They've looked at all the others in the area, Regional government in the growth of Saskatoon. --(Interjection)-- Yet we turned around, Mr. Speaker, they suggest that the size of Saskatoon proper, down town Saskatoon stop at 192, OOO people, and from that point on you deal with regional government, Mr.

Speaker, the City of Winnipeg as far as the structure is concerned has to be changed or you are going to continue to have problems, you are going to continue to have high truces and you are not going to have a body that the provincial government can work with properly within that city to get things done. But this provincial government doesn't want that. This provincial government basically wants to buy the land themselves, do it all themselves and impose their will upon the city. And it's the old story of control. Mr.

Speaker, we know that everything that this government has put forward from time to time is basically to get more control over what they are doing. Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Development Fund which we have a lot of money going out on. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources presented some figures the other night which showed that while it was the Fund it lost money and we have interest to pay on our loans, etc. He showed that under the Corporation where they take equity in businesses that they have some problems too.

He pointed out the problems we had, and there's no question about the problems they have. Mr. Speaker, doesn•t that prove that the experiment of taking public money and putting it into businesses, large businesses especially, for the benefit of creating jobs and the profit coming back to the people to help the people has been a complete failure. On our side and theirs. And for anybody to say now that we want to change the Act so that they can have all the good loans - or not have all the bad loans;let's put it that way, is just ridiculous because I assure you, Mr.

Speaker, they'll only get the bad loans anyway because the good loans the finance people will take. Unless you go out and cut your interest rates, and that1s quite possible too. But, Mr, Speaker, the fund, or the corporation as it's now called, if they want construc tive criticism why not sit down and take a look where they have been successful. In some of your smaller good loans which have been areas where 25 people in an area are working or 50 people in an area are working, and stay out of this great big massive loaning business which has proved to be a failure. And I hit the desk, Mr.

Speaker, because in my speech it said so, like the Premier's it's been there for six years. I asked my speech writer to take it out but he forgot and I thought maybe he should. I asked him to take it out for another reason. After six years I thought I was getting a little older and didn1t have to do those things. Mr. Speaker, the fund or corporation, as you want to call it, can be successful and

446 March 19, 1975 BILL NO . 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont1d) • ,b enefi cial to Manitobans but not if this government is going to keep going out and promoting business, loans, and buying equity in companies because governments do not run companies well, and it's been proven. Mr .

Speaker, the reasons for this government going into business, the reasons for buy ing land, the reasons for wanting to get into the preferred loaning area with the people's money just leaves me cold, I can1t understand it for one thing, I believe sincerel y in the Minister of Urban Affairs when he stood up and said "I'll def end public housing, I'll defe nd pharmacare", He didn't say it that way, He said, "You criticise it11, but he means he'll defe nd it, I think if you1ll look at the record in this House over the past six years, you'll find that this side of the House hasn't always in fact most times, have listened toJaccepted this govern ment1s legislation, argued on many occasions on how it's been put forth, put forth our argu ments as to, we do it our way, you do it your way, but going for the same thing, but never really got that excited or into battles with the government when we talked about things that this government believe help people .

I believe that they have gone too far, and basically socialism always does; but nevertheless, neverthele ss where have our arguments been ? The worst battle we ever had in this House was on Autopac and we're close to losing $30 million of people's money, Which could have been where ? Maybe in housing, maybe somewhere else, Mr, Speaker, we had battles about the Fund, we've said you're going into businesses and losing money , you know, Those have been our battles. And what are the priorities of the Socialist NDP government ? Is it to be the biggest businessmen in Canada or North America, or what?

The biggest landowners as well. What are the priorities of the NDP government when it comes to spending money ? You know, it's a monopoly game with other people's money because I think they•re all as conceited as Cheshire cats who figure that they know best in business and the operation of people's lives. --(Interjection)-- Mr. Speaker, the Premier says I'm being silly , I assure him I am not, because I can it figure out this NDP government and their policies, You know, it's just at a loss and they're mixed up at the present time like you wouldn1t believe, Mr.

Speaker, I find them quite mixed up, 11m sure that there will be a counter argument against this, but I have done something with some working papers here today regarding the collection of the money that we're about to spend, And 11ve got all these income tax forms here and what have you, but I've got a little book here that tells us how much we pay in tax. And in this book if you take , . , well as a matter of fact, Mr .

Speaker, to start with up to $1 , OOO the Federal Government took everybody off the tax roll, and this government it would probably break out about 551 that you wouldn't have to pay any provincial tax because of your Manitoba cost-of -living credit, But if you took a man who paid tax, taxable income of $1 , 200 in Manitoba and he pays a federal tax according to the book, of $36 , 00, he pays a provincial tax of $78 ,40, he gets a rebate, Mr, Speaker, of $2 2,12 of the Manitoba cost-of- living credit. This is a single man.

He pays 160 percent of his actual fed eral tax, The Manitoba tax is 160 percent, A man paying tax on $1 , 410 a year taxable income, he pays $7 6, 00 to the federal tax, The provincial tax, and it's in the book, is $96 ,20, A single man's deduction on that basis on the Manitoba cost-of-living credit would be $20, 02; he pays $76. 08. And that's 100 percent of the actual tax he pays to the Federal Government, Now, Mr .

Speaker, let's make it very clear these people say, you know, you pay your tax on the basic federal tax, but the basic was changed, the basic is higher than the actual because the Federal Government gave a tax break to the people . So for this government to say that you're paying 42, 5 of actual fe deral tax youire paying, is wrong, 42, 5 of the basic but you1re paying a heck of a lot more on your actual federal tax. Letis got o $3, 412, Mr. Speaker .

Youill pay $4 72 in federal tax, youill pay $2 64. 20 in provincial tax and when the cost-of-living credit breaks down there, there is no more, you're paying 56 percent of the actual fed eral tax you're paying. And, you know, Mr, Speaker, what the policy of this thing is, and this is why I donit understand NDP governments any more, because they stood up and they said, wetre for the working man, $12 , OOO a year of taxable income, you'll pay $2, 555 federal, you'll pay $1 , 149, 80 provincial, there is no cos t-of-living credit there, which is 45 percent of your actual fed eral tax. Do you know what this is, Mr .

Speaker? That is the guy making more money is paying more perce ntage of federal income tax than a low income earner in this province, The man making less money is paying more perce ntage of actual fed eral tax in this province than the man making more money . And that

March 19, 1975 447 BILL NO. 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR, F, JOHNSTON cont'd) , .•• is NDP policy. And the Premier asks me why I don•t understand NDP socialist governments, who continually mislead the people with advertising; advertising that in the Public Accounts to Dunsky agency in Montreal was $365 , OOO. And the Premier will say, as he usually does, what did you guys do? Well, okay, I•m not here to argue or discuss what was done ten years ago or 15 years ago. AU I know is this type of nonsense coming out is close to ridiculous. And there will be an argument, Mr.

Speaker, that I have left out the Real Tax Pr operty Credit Plan. Thank you, Mr, Speaker. --(Interjection)-- Well, Mr. Speaker, I•ll be very happy to put the Real Tax Property Credit Plan. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. --(Interjection)-- Well, Mr. Speaker, I•ll be very happy to put the Real Tax Credit Plan in my figures, providing you take it out of the Real Tax Plan, You can't use it in both places. That•s what the Premier•s tried to do on many occasions. He said, look at all we•re giving you back and he uses it, he used it one year with your tax. That•s income tax.

Then he•d turn around and he•d take the same hundred bucks and he•d say, look what I•m giving you on your Real Tax. You can•t use it twice. That's why in these figures I have only put in the Manitoba cost-of-living credit, If you want to put in the real tax plan, I•d be very happy to, but don•t tell the people they•re getting a break on their Real Taxes. If you want to take all the taxes people pay and add them up in one lump sum, fine I•ll do it that way too.

But I will tell you this, at the present time the people, the low income earner in Manitoba is paying more percentage of actual federal tax than the high income earner in this province, And that is the policy of the NDP government. --(Interjection)-- Well the figures are there. I•m only using the federal book and I admit they work it on the basic, It kind of shoots the old previous Minister of Finance's argument all to hell, and that•s basically what his arguments were when he ever gave them. Mr. Speaker, I will conclude now by saying that I don't understand the priorities of this Socialist government.

They want to be businessmen and they•re not. They•re conceited enough to think that they are. They go out and they advertise that they can do all of these things and are doing all these things, and they•re not. How can you pay attention to advertising that's put forth when half of it can be proved that it's mixed up and against the laws of the land. Mr. Speaker, we are now seeing the - what is it - hens come home to roost or something of that nature - chickens are coming home to roost. Well this is Women•s Lib year or some thing.

But I assure you, the Premier is going to have to come up with better arguments and excuses for this government than what happened 10 or 15 years ago or what happened in other provinces, Mr. Speaker, I wrote this down, I didn•t say it, it was one of my colleagues and I guess I•ve destroyed it and it's my colleague from Riel.

He said, we will have reached the ultimate in the Progressive Conservative Party when we get blamed for Autopac, Unicity, and all of these things that this government has gone into; that they will not, they will not take the blame themselves, they want to blame somebody else for all their mistakes. And that•s what the Premier•s speech was. Get off the hook the best way you can by blaming somebody else. And we•ve heard it for six years, Mr. Speaker. The Pr emier wasn•t here when I told him I took the space where it said, 11hit the desk11 out of my speech.

I wish you•d do it the next time because it's getting a little boring. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Mr, Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Morris,, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No, 2, The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell is absent. No. 6, the same. Go on to the others? Bill No. 5. The Honourable Minister of Health. BILL NO. 5 - VITAL STATISTICS MR . DESJARDINS presented Bill No. 5,

an Act to amend the Vital Statistics Act for second reading. MOTION presented, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, this proposed bill includes mostly housekeeping amendments to the Vital Statistics Act arising from the introduction of the new Child Welfare

448 March 19 , 1975 BILL NO . 5 - VITAL STATISTICS (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ••• ,A ct last year, the Act that came into force finally in January. The number 1 clause though is something that was recommended and it should be in this bill, it was recommended by the Law Reform Committee , and this is a legal definition of "death". This was, as I say, recommended by the Law Refo rm Committee . The remaining of the bill is mostly housekeeping.

I think that there is a change that now it is the County Court Clerk who will under the new Child Welfare Act provide the recorder of Vital Statistics with the order of adoption for registration purposes. And the word "legitimate" is now being removed, that is we will not make any distinction for adoption purposes now. And it will also allow the registration of adoption agreements which was permitted under the repealed Child Welfare Act, Unfortun ately that wasntt done , that was omitted and it is certainly needed now. Then the sixth

section is an extention of the principle contained in

Section 2 that we no longer show the names of the natural parents of an adopted child which could create an emotional problem to a child who was illegitima te. So I think that it is, you might say practically a routine bill, it is mostly housekeeping, except that maybe that first clause that has a legal definition of death, I might say, Mr. Speaker, that is fai rly urgently required if we're going to proceed with the Act at this time . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhi neland. MR . BROWN: Wetd like this to stand, Mr. Speaker. MR, SPEAKER: Would the honourable member make a motion please ? MR .

BROWN: I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Morris) that the bill stand, MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO . 8 - CHILD WEL FARE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health on Bill No. 8. MR . DESJARDINS presented Bill No. 8,

an Act to amend the Child Welfare Act for second reading. MOTION presented. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, this also is housekeeping to make it possible what was approved in principle in the change of this Act last year.

The major provisions I might say in the bill is to provide for a transitional period during which adoption proceedings in progress at the time of proclamation of the new Child Welfare Act and related regulations at January 31, 1975, can be continued and completed under provisions and regulations of the repealed Child Welfare Act, In the absence of this provision, adoption proceedings in progress at the time of proclamation of the new Child Welfare Act will have to be halted.

Applicants for adopted children would be required to submit a new application in accordance with regula tions of the new Act, It is judged this would neces sarily delay success ful adoption and impose undue hardship upon these applicants af fected, I'm not going to go clause by clause , I think it is clear that it's housekeeping, If there is any questions, I'll try to answer them.

But again I would like to appeal to the members and the member that has the adjournment of the previous motion that if we are going to proceed with adoption, I would hope that there will not be any unnecessary delay in passing this Act. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . BROWN: I'd like to move, seconded by the Member from La Verendrye1that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: I wonder if the Member for Birtle-Russell is prepared to go on his two bills . MR . GRAHAM: Let it stand, please, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you.

The Honourable At torney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Public Works that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

March 19 , 19 75 MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair . COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY -A TTORNEY-GENERAL MR. CHAIRMAN: For honourable members , it's page 9 of their Estimate books. Resolution 20(a)--The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russe ll. 449 MR. GRAHAM: Mr .

Chairm an, seeing as how we have no other place in the Estimates to deal with the Liquor Control Commission, I think we have to deal with it under the Minister•s Salary , and for that reason I want to at this time take a few minutes to brin g to the attention of the House some of the problems that I see at least with the affairs of the Liquor Control Commission. I•m sure there are other members of the House that want to say a few words in that respect as well . It was rather interesting, sir, last Fr iday to pick up the paper and read where , "The Minister of Touris m, Mr.

Toupin, said , Thursday that he favours having wine served in all provin cial restaurants . This would be part of a program to encourage sensible and modera te drinki ng, Mr . Toupin told about 200 people attending a dinner." And I won•t go on any furt her. He says, "Maybe this change is something we can look forward to soon." Now I don•t know whether Mr.

Toupin had already discussed this with the Attorney-Gener al , or whether it had been a Cabinet decision that he was announcing, but it seems somewhat strange to me, sir , that affairs of the Liquor Control Commission policy changes, and what not>should be announced by other than the Attorney-Gener al . Sir , we find that on numerous occasions that we•ve had the Chairman of the Liquor Control Commission making announcements.

We•ve had the Attorne y-General making announcements, We have the Minister of Tourism making announcements , and I don•t know how many more there are going to be that are going to be making announcements regarding the operation of the Liquor Control Commission.

I•m beginn ing to wonder, sir, just who is making policy for the Liquor Control Commission, whether it is the Chairman of the Liquor Control Commission, whether it is the Attorney-General, whether it's the Min ister of Tourism, or whether it is the Cabin et itself, And I would hope that the Attorney-General when he stands up in his place will tell us who is making these policy decisions, --(Interjection)-- Ws all right, I see the Minister of Public Works is leaving.

I thought maybe he had something to say at this time, Mr, Chairman, I think it is time that we have rather clear cut policies on the operation of the Liquor Control Commiss io n, We had been pro mised some time ago that there was going to be a rev iew, and as we all recall the last review that was undertaken was quite an extensive one , in which there was public input , So far to my knowledge there has been no public hearings ; the public has not been considered at all as far as I can find out .

And if there is going to be changes , and we have had changes made in the last year or so, We•ve had fortified wines taken off the list . It was done on a trial basis in certain parts of the province and then has been brought out province-wide. But I would hope that decision s of this nature in volving the public would be carried forw ard . I would hope that there would be hearings held where the public could make a respresentation on what they think should occur in the field of the Liquor Control Commission , but we have seen nothing of that respe ct , si r, I think it's most regrettabl e .

I can well recall, sir, when a couple of years or so ago, there was a great deal of concern about the oper ation of what they called the "Main Street Strip ", and it seemed at that time the Chairman of the Liquor Control Commission almost conducted a personal vendetta on the 17 hotel keepers in that particular area .

There was a great deal of concern expressed that there were maybe violations of the regulations in those operations, There was certainly concern expressed about too much alcohol being available to those people in that area , And lo and behold, sir , after that vendetta had been carried out, we find the government itself then moved into that area.

After cutting down on the seating capacity of the various hotels, the government then moved into that area itself and established its own store, If there was a concern about the availability of liquor in that area, we find now that there is a greater availability, the hours have been lengthened; they can now go there far earlier in the day than was possible before , So you have to wonder just why or what the policy of the government and the Commission is .

I suspect, sir , that really the whole crux of the matter lies in the field of finance, and the government felt that here was a very good chance to get more revenue for the province , more than they would if the liquor was available through the regular outlets,

450 March 19 , 19 75 SUPPLY -A TTORNEY-GENERAL (MR. GRAHAM cont•d) •••• That is a suspicion that I have and I would hope that the Attorney General can allay those suspicions when he gets up to speak. These are just some of the fields that I think we have to explore. There are no doubt many others, and I think that other membe rs, particularly on this side of the House anyway, will have comments to make in that respect. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 20(a) , The Honourable Member for Virden. MR.

MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden): Mr, Speaker, in speaking to this resolution, I would just like to support the thought of the juveniles and the Ju venile Court and the aging of same .

And I think of myself as a responsible parent, and I am a parent of four teenagers, and I have indeed discussed this with them, because I do think they need a stronger hand, a fi rmer judg ment when they do go to court, and even if that refle cts on the parents, maybe it would be better for all if somehow the age was lowered, so that even if the parents have to be named, or in some form • • • I think youth today is very responsible and we should take the action that firms their hand and makes them think before they do some of these things.

I think in relation to my own children that when a school principal has set them down, or a coach, and I very much support when I hear of it, and hear both sides of it, I•m the first one to go to the coach, and likewise if it was in court.

I•m fortunate , my children haven•t been in court, but if they indeed were guilty and were there, I think they should be named as an example , so that they make sure that if they•re hidden under the veil that•s now there, many of them go out just really make a mockery of the courts, and I think this to be wrong. - I also think, in following my Member from Birtle-R ussell, it does seem to be in my experience in past years in trying to assist local cafe s to get a liquor license , and I•m repeating myself from other years, but it is a fact in my judgment that if you compare some of the places on Main Street and go out to the small towns , and anywhere in the world, Manitoba one, I•m thinking of a local one, and certainly I would look at my view of it as it being much more classy than Main Street, and yet undoubtedly they seem to throw blocks that an awful lot of money has to be spent.

I just wonder if it is done equal across the province, I think - and I don•t believe it to be that. The other area is the banquet permits which I know - I•ve talked to Mr.

Syms prior to his health setback, and I haven•t talked to him since - I know his approach has been that this is for entertainment rather than making money, but so many of the ball clubs, hockey clubs , community clubs, put this on, a couple of hours of socializing and also at the thought of making a few dollars to upgrade that club , And really, at the price today, 45 cents including mix is unrealistic, because it's a matter of those clubs have to get free help . If they had to hire the barman , there•s just no way in God•s green earth to show a prof it.

And to me , all of this money that• s raised, it stays right in the community , and if you made that price up to equal the hotels, or prices such as that, there would be a lot more profit and a lot more money available for that and just encourage local people to upgrade their clubs, their curling rinks, their skating rinks, rather than, as so many of them have to do, come to the government for grants . I think that the Attorney-General has some infl uence over the judgments of the Liquor Board and I would just hope that he would carry that messa ge to the Chairman of the Liquor Board. Thank you. MR .

CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. I beg your pardon, I was just trying to figure the constituency .•• MR. DAVID BLAKE (Minnedosa): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I only want to make one or two remarks on this particular part of the estimates. My colleague from Virden has covered one of the areas that I was going to mention, and that was the permits, licensing of ball clubs and other organizations that wish to raise fun ds, and the price , It' s been mentioned to me that it seems to be considerably out of line with the way costs have gone to date.

I also share the remarks of my colle ague from Birtle-Russell in connection with juvenile offend ers, and there•s no question about it it's of concern to all of us , the problems in that particular area, I know that studies are being done on it and I•m afraid that I just don•t really have an answer to put forward that might help solve the problem. One of the concerns that I have, Mr.

Chairman , that has been raised to me on more than one occasion, is in connection with the smaller community , the halls , the church hall type of operation that normally have a few occasional permits a year and have been required to do some extensive renovating in connection with washroom facilitie s, and what not. In some of

March 19 , 1975 451 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL (MR. BLAKE contrd) •••. the more remote rural areas it becomes quite a costly operation, and I would urge the Minister to use whatever influence he may have on the licensing of people or the inspecting people to - certainly by all means if they want to operate these facilities, but in the smaller church hall org anizations, it requires a little time to arrange the necessary financing in order to bring about the required improvements and upgrading in the facilities.

I just wanted to make that point, because there are two or three halls in my area that have to spend several thousand dollars in order to dr ill a well and get the proper waterworks in, and they•re certainly willing to do it but they•re looking for some lead time of maybe 12 to 18 months to arrange the necessary financing and do some fund raising in ord er to afford it. I think they•re being given that time, but if they•re not I•ll certainly be bring in g it to the Minister's attention.

But how widespread this might be throughout the province, I•m not too sure, but it's one concern that I have in my particular constituency that I wanted to bring to the Minister•s attention. Also I on a personal note would have some reservations about the advertising program that is carried on by the Commission at Christmas time, and I know Ws certainly admirable to encourage people not to take that one extra for the road , to make it coffee, but I•m just wondering if the expenditures by the Commission itself is possibly a wise one.

The fact that we•re going to make 45 million or maybe 50 million this year with the price increase from the sale of liquor, I•m just wonderi ng if it's a wise expenditure to be spending that kind of money on advertis ing that at times creates a lot of stickers and what not. I think probably it may be more advisedly spent by the Commission on a public relations basis rather than on the particular bent that they take in their advertising, because I know at times the Commission and the officials of the Commission are accused quite strong ly, and justly or unjustly,for some of the decisions that they make.

I think that there are many occasions when they could possibly get along better with a little better image being created in the public eye rather than the one that sometimes exists. But those are the one or two comments that I wanted to make in connection with the Liquor Commission ruling, Mr , Chairman , MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR. EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Chairman, I•ll be very brief.

I just want to speak on a couple of matters on the Liquor Commission, and this is the only place in the estimates where we can bring it up, so I•ll .•• One thing, when they•re speaking of the banquet permits, their help, I• d like to just mention to the Minister, the municipality in which I live, we•re a dry municipality, one that•s never had a vote, we•ve never voted yet. I don•t suppose we ever will vote. But what happens is, that the Liquor Commission issue banquet permits as if they•re going out of style, and this bothers me.

I was at a wedding dance not very long ago and everything was all in order, nothing wrong, but the only thing we•re a dry municipality. I phoned the Liquor Commission up to see whether, because I•m always interested in trying to uphold the law, and I asked them why they issued banquet permits when you•re a dry municipality. They said they never check, they don•t check.

Well I would suggest to the Minister that he would legislate every municipality make them all wet, because if you don•t do that, somewhere along the line some organization is going to be embarrassed some day if somebody wants . . • So he might as well make us all wet, because there•s no other choice, because I think you miss .•. A MEMBER: They•re all wet over there. MR.

McKELLAR: Yeah, I know, but he•s not listenin g, If I have to repeat it, I realize that it is a very important thing, But this is a problem which we have in the Province of Manitoba because of the fact that the Liquor Commission don•t check to see whether the municipality is wet or dry; they issue banquet permits to anybody. And I know they•re out to sell all the liquor they can sell, and this is their intention, and they•re doing a tremendous job at this , So that•s all I•m saying. I•m not saying the municipality in which I live - you know where I live, I don•t have to tell anybody. --(Interjecti on)-- Yeah.

Now there•s one other problem that I•d like to bring up at this time, Now most of us know that we•re going to the Royal Winter Fair. Many of us were there last year at Brand on at the Royal Winter Fair, and we witnessed one of the finest demonstrations I think that you could ever witness. In fact it's the first time in my lifetime I•ve ever seen an eight-horse team hitched to a wagon , The demonstration was put on for all to see, Carl sberg eight-horse

452 March 19 , 19 75 SUPPLY -A TTORNEY-GENERAL (MR . McKELLAR cont'd) , •• , team, This particular part of the show, I understand, didntt cost the Royal Winter Fair at Brandon any money at all; they put the demonstration provided1 and everything was at no cost to the Fair Board at all. One of the problems now, that they were told they were breaking the law, and they can no longer demonstrate the same eight-horse team with the same wagon in the Province of Manitoba, In fact Itm told, Mr, Chairman, they can't demonstrate in Saskatchewan or B. C, The only province in Western Canada where they can go is Alberta.

And why can't they demonstrate, Mr. Chairman ? Simply because they had a barrel on that wagon and they had the name Carlsberg. Now they can demonstrate if they took off the word 11Carlsbe rg'' and put on 11Carlings-O' Keefe s11 and they took that barrel and threw it aside and put it in the barn and left it there, Took the same eight horse team out and this same wagon;and away they go, they come into Manitoba. Now I don't suppose that many children in our province looked at that wagon or they looked at the name Carlsberg.

What they were interested in was the demonstration of driving ability of that particular driver, demonstrating that he could handle eight horses, and that was a beautiful something to see , Now I know I'm not the Minister, Itm not the Attorney-General, and Itm not the Chairman of the Liquor Commission , but for the life of me I can't really see what was wrong with that, cantt really see what was wrong with it.

And I would like the Minister to discuss this with his Chairman of his Liquor Commission because I think we•re being deprived of something in Manitoba that we should have the privilege of seeing without having to go to Alberta. I don't see why we should have to drive seven or eight hundred miles to see an eight horse team when they're willing to come into the Province of Manitoba, not only demonstrate at the Royal Winter Fair but I understand that they will go to the B-Class Fairs in the Province of Manitoba during the summe r months and also put this demonstration on.

But we're not going to see them this year in Brandon. We•re not going to see them when we go there two weeks tomorrow or two weeks on Friday. We•re not going to have that privilege this year because the Liquor Commission decided in their good judgment they didn•t want the kids to see the word 11Carlsberg'1 • I don•t know if they ever worried about me or not, they didn•t want the children to see the word 11Carlsber g11, they might be infl uenced at a later date, Well that•s about all I have to say in that.

I think that we're being deprived of something) witnessing a demonstration of driving ability , and goodness knows we might never see again in our life time another eight horse team because this is something most unusual. And those of us who are in the agricultural business I think it brings back many memorie s, brings back many memories of the days when we used to hitch the horses onto the gang-plow and go up the fie lds, up and down, and I tell you itts really something to behold.

Now Itd like to discuss something else here regarding - and it was mentioned by the Member for Birtle-R ussell - about juvenile , and I•m told by department people in the Province of Ontario, the Province of Saskatchewan; to the east and west of us, that a juvenile•s age is 16. In other words they• re treated in adult court after the age of 16 . I think you Mr. Minister, mentioned something about the Federal Government are going to bring in a bill to the House of Commons to make one age across Canada alike fo r juvenile, at the age of 16 they become adults.

I think this is a wonderful thing. because I know itts very diff icult for the RCMP and the off icers of the Crown to lay charges at the present time , and if they do lay charges the penalties are so minor that itts hardly worth the trouble .

And this is the experience that we•re having in my part of the province , Now another problem we're having, Mr, Chairman, so close to the American border, In the state of North Dakota the drinking age is 21 years of age, Now I don' t know whether they lowered the age or not in this present ses sion of the North Dakota Legislature or not, but on Friday nights and Saturday nights in Boissevain, and Itm mentioning Boissevain be cause it's a 24-hour port at the International Peace Garden there, that the place is just full of Am erican young people who cannot drink in the State· of North Dakota and come up to Boissevain, and I suppose that same applies to all the towns along the border, but more so at Boissevain where there's a 24-hour port, and they can get back any hour of the day or night during the summer months, And this - well it hasn't created that big a problem; you can see that some of the problems that it does create for the law enforcement people on weekends anyway, and

March 19, 1975 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL (MR. McKELLAR cont'd) , ..• the RCM P at Boissevain and the Town cop in Boissevain sometimes on some weekends have their work cut out for them. 453 Now two years ago in the State of North Dakota they lowered the drinking age to 19 , and Governor Link in his best judgment vetoed the bill so that brought it back to 21 again, and the probl em , I don1t know what they did this session, and they're still in session down in Bismarck yet. Maybe they will lower the age this year and the Governor will not veto it, I don't really know what1s happening .

But it is quite a problem and I suppose that's nothing to do with us. In the State of Minnesota the drinking age is 18, the same as ours, so there's no problem there, but just North Dakota is where the problem is. Now I1d just like to ask the Minister one other question before I sit down.

We used to see a lot of liquor advertising on rad io, hear it and see it on radio and television after 10 01clock, This last number of months Itve hardly seen any liquor advertising and Itm just wondering is there a change in the regulations regarding advertising, or the liquor industry and brewery industry have they changed their advertising to newspaper advertising, or what's happening ?

Has there been any changes in the regulations regarding this particular advertising, bec au·se somewhere along the way I have hardly seen any advertising for the last four or five months, I donit know, whether maybe I donit watch television enough or listen to the radio enough after 10 o'clock, but it seems before that at 10 o'clock sharp just, bang, you'd be sure you'd see liquor advertising on the tube, Now I'm just wondering - maybe this is a good thing, Itm not saying it isn't, but Ws just a change that I've noticed taking place and I just want to know if there's a change in the regulations regarding advertising.

Mr. Chairm an., that's about all I have to say at this time. W s not a particular - the Attorn ey-General's not one subject. I always like to stay out of the courts myself personally and I never found anybody where he made any money going to court so with having had that experience all my life I hope that in the next few years of my life, or the rest or remainder, I don't have to experience having to go to court on my own behalf. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Well, Mr.

Speaker, perhaps before the Attorney General replies to some of these questions I had a particular question I wanted to ask him about with regard to the Liquor Control Commission. Ws in relation to some problems that exist in the offices, head offices of the Liquor Control Commission by way of a morale problem which I understan d is centred pretty deeply in the fact that a number of very senior people are being put in the position of having to retire several years in advance of their normal retire ment date, and a high degree of consternation naturally exists around this.

I don't know the true extent of the impact it has on their pension and what this will do to their income, but I underst and it is a serious problem and I wonder if the Attorney-Gen eral would be good enough to investigate and advise the House, if it's possible, the nature of this problem and those people that are affected and apparently are being forced into a position of retirement two or three, and sometimes more years in advance of their normal retirement date. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairma n.

Itd just like to make some comments regarding the Manitoba Liquor Commission, Mr. Chairman, to the Attorney-General. It would seem that the breweries genera lly are a very confused group of people as to what they can do regarding sales promotion within the province.

I think the Attorney-General knows very well that the breweries on many occasions have sponsored golf tourn aments, they have put curling teams into local bonspiels, they have supplied usually at winter fairs or carnivals, or most anywhere, rodeos, it's usually one of the first persons anybody sponsoring something of that nature, they ususally go to the breweries and ask them if they will be part of their affair.

At the present time it was brought to my attention because I was asking somebody about whether a certain tournamen t would be held this year or not, and they were a little in doubt as to whether they can or they canit. Now, Mr. Chairman, the .Attorney-Gen eral also, and Itm putting words in his mouth, or I may be, but Itm saying he knows that the breweries usually participate in affairs in Manitoba that bring Manitobans together.

And they go out, certa inly they are promoting their product, and it's sales promotion, but they should have - if you're going to talk about sales promotion you can't just talk about, I know it's liquor, but if youire going to say that a person can give away several cartons of Coca-Cola, or if you1re

454 March 19 , 1975 SUPPLY - ATTO RNEY-GENERAL (MR. F.

JOHNSTON cont'd) , ,g oing to say that Coca-Co la can give a trophy, or if you're going to say that a biscuit company can give a trophy, or any company can do sponsoring of this type of thing, I don't see why any business should be put in the position where they canit, especial ly when they are working usually , usually to have Manitobans get together and enjoy themselve s, And quite frankly at the present time I think those people are very conf used as to what they can do and what they can't, and I think you'll find that if it isn't cleared up you will find country fair s, rodeos, and everything of that nature, when they approach these people for help it will probably be refused, and I think that that has to be cleared up , MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Attorney-Gene ral. MR . PAWLEY: Mr, Chairman, I would like to if it was agreeable to the Assembly to answer most of these questions after we deal with item by item debate . I believe last night it was mentioned by the, and I believe agreed to by the House that we could proceed item by item and then return to the general subject matter.

Some of the questions that have been raised in respect to the Liquor Control Commission are pretty specific in nature and I would want to obtain as much material as possible to provide the House with in answer to the questions raised, There are a few items that I would like to deal with now. One, of course , that goes without saying that any refe rence that was made to wine being sold in restaurants, any of my colleague s, must in fact be a personal opinion on their part and certainly was not a policy announcement or decision that has been made by the Government.

I would like to just mention briefly in respect to the fortified wines being removed from the Liquor Control Commission lists , that this has been one program which, though, was looked upon with some critical analysis at the time by some members in this House and there were a number of suggestions that it would not work.

The reports that we have been receiving is to the extent that there has been some impro vements in a number of areas, particularly in some of our remoter communitie s, and also in other parts of Manitoba, that in fact there has been some less abuse , some less dif ficulties with alcoholism, and in some instances law enforcement personnel do attribute, do attribute this move on the part of the Commission to remove the cheap highly fortified wines from the Liquor Control lists as having been an important and valid reason for some impro vement.

I'm not anxious to over-exaggerate or over-emphasize the level of improvement. I think we have to continue to watch that carefully . But if there has been a trend as a result of this move, it has been one that has been favoura ble . I would like to just assure the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell that I would be happily pleased if the Liquor Control Commission ceased to make any money at all, speaking as one individual, and to my way of thinking and certainly to my understanding, no policy and no effort by the Liquor Control Commission should be towards maximizing return .

And I say that by way of a general statement of principle and probably I can receive some furthe r specific information in regard to the particular instance he made ref erence to, but as a matter of principle I certainly don't feel that the Liquor Control Commission should be in the business of maximizing returns. MR . GRAHAM: Would the Honourable Minister permit a question at this time ? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR.' GRAHAM: Would he be in favour , then, of cutting the Commission in half ? Or the mark-up in half ? MR .

PAWLEY: No, what I was indicating to the honourable member, that I don't think by way of promotion and extra sales pitch that the Commission should attempt to encourage greater consumption of alcohol, I suspect in fact that if we did cut the mark-up by one-half, that we in fact would be encouraging substantial increases in consumption. I suspect that that would be the end result of any direction such as that, The other questions that were raised, I believe throughout, were specific with the exception of that in regard to liquor advertising. The existing regulations have been tightened.

The regulations which presently exist have not been properly enforced over the last number of years, and they are now being more strictly enfor ced insofar as advertising is concerned on the electronics media, to the extent that life style advertising, the type of advertising that associates the drinking of alcoholic beverages with sports, with young people , with minors, with the operation of motor vehicle s, et c. , is being curtailed. In general, in answer to the questions that were raised by the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney, there has been no prohibition of advertising but certainly it is being more

March 19 , 1975 455 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL (MR. PAWLEY cont•d) • • • . strictly enforced as per the existing regulations which were not being enf orced up until a few months ago in any effe ctive way. I would like to leave the other specific issues that were raised till later, because I think I could provide honourable members with better and fuller info rmation at that time . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-R ussell . MR .

GRAHAM: At the same time , I wonder if the Minister could give us specific information in the fortified wine class, on the total number of fortif ied wines that were on the market; those that have been removed; and the price range of each; because I understand that it was only those cheap fortified wines that were removed from the market and there are still fortif ied wines on the market but they•re at a higher price . And if the Minister is sincere in saying that the Liquor Commission is not concerned in making money, I would wonder why it was only the higher priced ones that were kept on the market. MR .

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 20(a) - pass ? The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR, SPIVAK: I wonder if the Attorney-Gener al•s in a position to answer some of the que stions that he essentially took as notice last night concerning the RCMP inves tigation . Is he in a position to answer it now, or he may want to answer it tomorrow. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . I think that we•re trying to suggest that perhaps the items that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition raised last night can be answered under Law Enf orcement . MR . SPIVAK: Mr.

Chairman, in all fairne ss to the Minister, I have been attempting to try and determine how he handles his responsibilities as Minister.

I am really dealing with his item as Minister of the Crown, and while I think it may be appropriate to discuss , and will discuss certain matters under Law Enfo rcement, I think my inquiry really relates to his perception of his responsibility as the chief law offi cer of the Crown in relation to an investi gation that came about as a result of alle gations in this Legisl ature and subsequently followed with a request by the RCMP for an investigation, which has now subsequently followed with a report by them to him, which his law off icers at this present time are now reviewing.

I believe that it is appropriate to discuss it under this item simply because I am dealing with his position as Chief Law Offi cer and a review of his course of conduct with respect to this matter up until the present time . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr .

Chairman, if I could just say that the questions raised by the Leader of the Opposition, we•re attempting to obtain as much info rmation as possible and we will certainly relate that informati on , I do want to say to the Leader of the Opposition that I think that, and very properly so, that we are bordering on an area that we have to be rather careful about, We are in the process of investigation, and we don't know the outcome of that investigation yet; we are dealing with another investigation that has been submitted that is presently being reviewed as to whether or not any charges should be forthcoming; we don•t yet know whether or not there will be trial in respect to certain issues, I want to say to the Leader of the Opposition, just prior to my attending this afte rnoon in the House at 2:30, I was, I think, very properly reminded by some of my staff off icers that last evening we were bordering, in some instances, very close to the line , dangerously close to the line of compromising the course of justice insofar as matters that we were dealing with could in fact be the subject of fu rther investigation; some are presently the subject of investigation , and others could yet be the subject of court cases, and I recognized this last night, I was very anxious to provide as much inf ormation as possible to the Leader of the Opposition, but I want to certainly indicate to him there is proper, in my opinion, very professional concern as to the extent to which we carry the type of debate that we had started last night, and I share with the Leader of the Opposition responsibility for that debate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . The hour being 4:30, Wednesday aft ernoon, Private Members• Hour . Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker, Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directed me to report progress, and asks leave to sit again, IN SESSION MR. SPEAKER: Order please . The Honourable Member for Logan.

456 March 19 , 1975 IN SESSION MR, WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ste, Rose , that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried, TABLING OF REPORTS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services. Do you have a point ? HON. IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, with leave, Itd like to file the Annual Report of the Department of Consume r and Corporate and Internal Services. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? The honourable member have leave ? (Agreed) Very well, • • • • continued on next page

March 19, 1975 457 PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR MR. SPEAKER: Private members' hour. The first item is private members' resolu tions this afternoon. Resolution No. 4, the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. RESOLUTION NO . 4 - UPGRADING OF PROVINCIAL ROADS AND TRUNK HIGHWAYS MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. BANMAN : Moved by myself, seconded by the Member from Charleswood, that

WHEREAS road transportation is of vital concern to all urban and rural and northern communi ties; and

WHEREAS an inc rease in road weight restrictions is imperative to maintain lower trans portation costs; and

WHEREAS rail abandonment is a constant threat in rural communit ie s; and

WHEREAS many bridges on Manitoba provincial roads and provincia l trunk highways are not capable of carrying increasing weights ; BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that the government consider the advisability of imple- menting an aggressive policy of upgrading provincial roads and provincial trunk highways. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, being a rural member1possibly we have much more contact with members from our constituency in matters such as roads and transportation.

Since a good road network is of vital concern to most people, either living on the farm or living in a small urban community, it becomes a very very important part and almost an everyday challenge in the riding to try and help people go ahead and receive the kinds of road and road maintenance that they deserve. Mr. Speaker, the decentraliza tion policy of thi s government, the stay option, is dire ctly tied in with the type of road transportation that we will provide for the people in these differ ent communities .

Many people in my riding commute to work, to Winnip eg, they work in Winnipeg whether they live in the little town of Niverville or they live out in the arm of Ste. Anne, or even in the town of Ste. Anne; we even have some people commutin g from Steinbach, and we can see what a good transportation system such as the No. 1 Highway, we're four-laned all the way into Winn ipeg now, what kind of a benefit that can be to a community such as Ste. Anne. Mr.

Speaker, another part of the resolution which I have just read states that road restrictions, or weight restrictions, are also a very important part, or are playing a very important

part in our rural Manitoba communit ies. The Minister will appreciate that, and I might say at this time we appreciate his and his department's co-operation in raisi ng the limits on certain highways, and I refer specifically to the No. 12 Highway. It was done after the members from my constituency, composed of the mayor and several other members, made a certain representation to the Premier and the Minister of Highways, and I'm happy to say that we have upgraded it to a certain extent. But, Mr.

Speaker, in the interim 1that will serve to help the larger trucking companies in our community maintain their present growth rate, but in the future we are looking for the same kind of considerations and the same kinds of agreements as the Minister has signed a little while ago, and we saw the announcement, with the Federal Government ias to the increase of weight restrict ions on the Trans Canada Highway. I understand that is going to be uniform across the province, and we applaud that move.

I would also urge that in regards to the Trans Canada Highway that we again make sure that we try and get that road four-laned as fast as possible; there's a lot of traffic on it. Not only does it pose a safety hazard to the motorist travelling on that very very much travelled road, but it also would aid the transportation facility. Mr. Speaker, over the last years, and I expressed some concern last year during the Highways Budget, I mention that we're having a certain breakdown in our transportation sys tem, and we need only look at what is happening to rail transportation.

From personal experi ence in the transportation of cars, automobiles on rail cars, we used to have a carload dropped off in a siding in La Broquerie and it would take a matter of ten days. You are now looking at a time limit of almost a month for the same type of delivery. This not only means an increased cost to the people who are transporting, or who own those goods; it means an increased cost to the consumer because that particular commodity has to be paid for by the consumer who then buys it.

458 March 19, 1975 RESOLUTION 4 (MR. BANMAN cont'

d) Mr. Speaker, on the other hand, the trucking industry, for the same transportation, or the freighting of the automobiles from Toronto, or Montreal to Winnipeg 1will take only three or four days. And the point I'm trying to make very simply, Mr. Speaker, I cite the example of automobiles but that same problem is also affecting all the people involved in the transportation of goods and the transportation of articles to be sold and to be distributed. Mr.

Speaker, I would also like to point out that the large, or the trucking companies are also faced of course with the inflationary spiral and that a truck can with one driver haul pos sibly 20 , OOO or 30, OOO pounds more without any real additional expense. This means that once again we can possibly keep some of the transportation costs down whether it be freight comi ng to Winn ipeg or to rural Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, another area which seems to be causing the highwa ys people the most con cern when it comes to rate restrictions is one of bridges.

We are informed that there are many bridges in the province that wi ll not take the additional weight; the roads are of possible construction so that they would take the weight, but there are certain bridges in areas that are not capable of taking that excess weight. I would urge the Minister to make sure that any con struction of bridges in the future, that these considerations are taken into consideration, and that the future expansion of any road that is of possible concern to the rural community in which it serves would be able to upgrade it in that the bridge will be able to take that excess weight. Mr.

Speaker, I realize as well, as all the members in the House do, that we are talking about spending more money and, Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak to that for a moment. I would like to cite several examples. I would like to say that in the year 1970 for construction of highways we spent 25, 437 , OOO, and in 19 75, Mr. Speaker, five years later, we spent 26, 500, OOO - that's an inc rease of slightly over a million.

Now with the escalating inflationary trend that we have been experiencing, as you can see 1that instead of even trying to maintain a certain amount of equilibrium in our highway construction we're following very very far behind. I also checked the borrowing, the Capital Supply Bills that have been passed by this govern ment in the last several years 1and I see that where they have borrowed money for it is in the frontier and resource roads to the tune of 10 million in the year of 1974 . Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate that this government sees fit to spend moneys elsewhere other than on highways, and I presume that highway s have become a rather low priority as far as they are concerned. Take for example the proposed legislation that the members opposite are going to be introducing in the next little while. They say the two cents a gallon surtax on gaso line wi ll raise about $ 8 million for Autopac. Mr. Speaker, that $ 8 million put into road con struction would increase the road con struction by almost 30 percent in this province . Mr.

Speaker, we also see that if they would add the amount of money put into Flyer and Saunders, Misawa, you would notice, Mr. Speaker, that we would have a substantial increase in road building. Mr. Speaker, the government also has seen fit to spend $1 5 million a year here in the Capital Supply Bill on land acquisition - Manitoba Agricultural Credit, $1 4, 650, OOO in the year of 1974 . Mr. Speaker, these are all places where money is being spent and I suggest to the mem bers opposite that highways have been put on a very very low priority with this government, and I think the figures point it out. Mr.

Speaker, in 19 71 before Autopac came in, the Manitoba Motor Vehicle Branch for the total operation of that branch was $2 , 781, OOO, and that was the year ending March 31, 197 1. This year however, Mr. Speaker, we are going to have to approve $8 ,2 43, 600 . Mr. Speaker, that's an increase of over 5- 1/2 million in a very very short while. Now I suggest again that this money is not being --the Minister of Highways and, Mr. Speaker, I sort of feel sort of sorry for him because he seems to be getting the scraps off the table here.

You have a real large incre ase in the Manitoba Motor Vehicle Branch Estimates, and I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that possibly a substantial amount of that money is going to the operation of Autopac, because those two departments are very very hard to divorce. Mr. Speaker, the Province of Saskatchewan, and I tried to get some figures on it - the members opposite would probably have a little easier time getting figures from the Province of Saskatchewan than I would. A MEMBER : Why?

March 19 , 1975 459 RESOLUTION 4 MR. BANMAN : But I know that the province has undertaken a very very aggressive road building policy in the past while, and it is the concern of my constituency, and the concern of many people in rural Manitoba, and it should be, I think, the concern of people in Metropolitan Winn ipeg that our transportation system should definitely be upgraded.

I once again urge the Minister and the Government to look at this resolution very closely and put a little bit more of a priority on road construction and do away with some of the policies and programs that are presently costing the Manito ba taxpayer a lot of money. Thank you. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR . STEVE DEREWIANCHUK (Emerson) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to enter this debate on this resolution by my colleague in the neighboring constituency of La Verendrye. Mr.

Speaker, the history of my constituency of Emerson indicated that for the greater part of our hundred year history, the member from that constituency sat on the side of the government in power. And I can't understand for the life of me why we were treated as poor cousins. That is until 1969. And I certainly appreciate the fact that my predecessors quit. Before .. the request for highway improvements were always overlooked by the previous govern ment prior to 1969 . You know, Mr.

Speaker, I sat here during the last session and I couldn 't believe my ears because my colleague, the Minister of Highways, was being complimented on all sides of the House for his very fine program. And believe me, I believed them beca use I was one of the reci pients of that program. You know, Mr. Speaker, I'm very proud of the people of the con stituency of Emerson, and in my opinion the 1973 election indicated the degree of their intelli gence by electing a member of the government which would produce highwa y s that were in accordance with our tim es.

Being a reasonable man, I can sympathize with my colleague in the next constituency of La Verendrye when he states, especially through this resolution , that his constituency has suffered. It is no wonder1for look at the background of the previous affiliation of his constitu ency. But nevertheless, because the both of us, now I can assure him that he has had more work done in his constituency through the Highways program that he has had in many many years prior to this government's appearance. So, Mr.

Speaker, let's review the progress of the Highway Department over the last few years to show that they have been very progressive in their attitude. In 1965 the gross vehicle weight was approximately 44, OOO pounds. This was increased to 7 2, OOO pounds, and then to 74 , OOO pound s, and now to 80, OOO pounds on some PRs, and on the primary highways system we have gone up to 110 , OOO pounds. Now surely how progressive can we get ? Surely this government has done more to help cut down the cost of transporting goods for their increase in weight limits than any government in the history of this province .

This year I feel a little sorry for my colleague, the Minister of Highways, because he has to put a road program which I am sure is going to be difficult to meet. I am told that the ri sing costs of the Highway Department are so rapid that the Dominion Bureau of Statistics are unable to keep track of them, and that they are operating several months behind time. As a matter of fact, I would not be surprised to hear that their annual project and road program of the pre vious Minister is probably a million or so in the red before it even starts. Mr.

Speaker, I do not want to be over-cri tical of my colleague from La Verendrye, but I do feel that if his colleagues choose to compliment the Minister of Highways for his fair dis tribution of money and program in the last budget, then I am sure he wouldn 't find anything different in this budget. Perhaps the answer is that if anyMLA wishes road work done beyond what the Highway Department propose, then perhaps he would care to raise the necessary funds from his const ituency.

As a matter of fact, I am told that the Honourable Member from La Verendrye had more money spent in his constituency than I did in mine, and if my constitu ents are happy with the work that was accomplished, then his constituents must be more happy with the work that was completed in their constituency. However, if not, I would strongly recommend that a method be developed whereby his constituents could help pay for the additional road program that he wishes in his constituency. Otherwi se I'm at a loss to know the reason for this resolution at this time. You know, Mr.

Speaker, we 're not a rich constituency, but we are a hard working indus trial constituency, and we are not asking for the impo ssible, we are only asking for our fair

460 March 19, 1975 RES OLUTION 4 (MR. DER EWIANCHUK cont'd) ..... share, and believe me in the last few years I believe we are getting most of it. And like every other MLA I wish we could get more. However, we 're not being unreasonable, we only want our fair share. I would like to congratulate my colleague, the Minister of Highways, on the excellent road program he has pres ented so far, and I hope he will continue to be as fair in the futur e. Mr.

Speaker, one last comment, that is that the constituency of Emerson is probably one of the most versa tile and multicultural regions in Manitoba, and as a result our problems are multi plied. For example, we grow sugar beets, grain, and we are very heavy cattle producers, and as a result our communication links are extremely important to us. Had it not been for the intel ligence of my constituen ts, we would still be suffering under the yoke of the previous administration. Thank you. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR . JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River) : Mr.

Speaker, in spite of the glowing remarks of the Honour able Member for Emerson, I want you to know, sir, that I support this resolution as put forward by my colleague from La Verendrye. I rise on this occasion to give a point of view from another part of the country which he didn 't refer to . I think I have a unique situation that is crying out for improvement, and by the look of the smile on the Ministe r's face., I think he knows what I am going to say. Mr. Speaker, I'm compelled to say it.

I have a piece of road 20 miles long from Highway No. 10 north of Mafeking that goes into Pelican Rapids, sir, and we have a situation there which I believe is unique. There 's some five to 800 people living in that particular area and this 20 miles of road, Mr. Speaker, has no less than 200 curves in it. It's nothing but a man killer, and is used quite extensively. The situation, Mr. Speaker, is this. I found out to my dismay that this year those people are going to be left high and dry insofar as the maintenance of this road.

Over the years, the Department of Indian Affairs have contributed half the cost of its maintenance, and each year it 's been my purpose to try and bring both together with a view to getting on with it and assuri ng the people, particularly in the wintertime, that at least the snow plowing would be done. I find out this spring, Mr. Speaker, in following through as I've done over the years, that the Department of Indian Affairs did not have any money. In checking with our own Department of Highways, I find that they won't do anything on the road unless the Department of Indian Affairs comes through with it.

The Minister in his wisdom has said that the Department of Indian Affairs have a responsibility and until they make their case clear and offer to help, nothing would be done. I took it upon myself to bring this to the attention of the First Minister in writing severa l months ago, and he agreed with everything I had to say and promised me that he would use his good offices to try and find a solution once and for all for this vexing subject. Mr. Speaker, people have been killed on this highway.

The Mounted Police on an emer gency occasion turned over their car and almost caused a death in that respect, but finally wrecked the car. On behalf of those people, again Mr. Speaker, I want to emphasize to the Minister that a way be found to correct this situati on. I know it's an expensive thing to straighten out the se 200 curves, but Mr. Speaker, during the last seven years that I've been appealing on behalf of those people, a couple of curves a year, and particularly the worst ones, would have made it worthwhile.

I also want to bring to the attention of the Minister, the highway between Swan River and Bowsman. He knows what happened last year, it was almost impassable, and it's bee n patched and patched to death, and this, Mr. Speaker, is one of the main arteries of this province, No. 10 Highway. I hope when we get to the estimates that the Minister will have something favourable to say to overcome this situat ion. I've spoken in this House about railway abandonment in my area, and every day that passes, Mr. Speaker, it' s becoming more and more evident.

The Minister of Labour had the portfolio of looking after railways, as I understood it, and I want to assure him that as the days go by it 's coming closer and closer in the entire area between Dauphin and Hudson Bay Junction. That line, sir, will be a thing of the past. And I'm appealing to the Minister to use his influence in any way he can to see that this does not happen. I'm not going to recite what it is going to do to that agricultural area, but I'm going to tell the Minister, the ex CNR man1that when they 're running trains in that pa rticular area at 15 miles an hour , it gives you some idea

March 19 , 197 5 46 1 RESOLUTION 4 (MR. BILTON cont'd) • . . . . of the road bed. Many of the stations have alrea dy been closed down, whil st we have the northern train go through there three times a week as it did in 1918, a person has to stand on the station and wave a lam p to flag down the train to get on it in this day and age.

I'm merely mentioning this to indicate to the Minister of Highways that the trans portation on the highways today, due to the lack of interest by the rail way company, is getting heavier and heavier and heav ier , and he's going to have to put more funds into that highway in order to see to it that there' s no interruption in the deliver y of goods and services. So, Mr. Speaker , without any hesitation whatsoever, I support the resolution put forward by my collea gue and appeal to other members of the House to do likewise. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ass iniboia. MR.

STEVE PATRICK (A ssi niboia): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to take a few minutes of the House to say a few words on this reso lution, Mr. Speaker. I did listen to the Honourable Member from Emerson, and perhaps he maybe has misconstrued the intent of the resolution, because I don't belie ve the resolution has any argument with the government where the roads were built or where they were not built. I belie ve the intent is to upgrading and maintenance of the highways and some of the roads in this province. Mr.

Speaker , from my own obs ervation and from my own experience, I feel that the resol ution is quite valid. Pe rhaps we could also take the time to discuss under this resolution the speed lim it, safety factors that are now - are they taken into consid eration when we' re building roads. Looking at the estima tes, Mr. Speaker, I know ther e' s a modest increase of approxi mately 10 perce nt in the construction of Provincial Trunk Highways.

There' s also approxi mately $31/ 2 million increase in the maintenance and construction, but we don't know to what extent that pertains to the highways and roads in the rural part of Manitoba, or perhaps the greater part of that expenditure is in the way of grants to the cities and urban areas. Pe rhaps the Minister can tell us that, but we'll find that out later on. But, Mr.

Speaker , the point that I do wish to raise to the Minister, and pe rhaps maybe this is what this resolution intends to do, is the problem that we're having with our highways, our pav ements, the cracking of pavements which I be lieve is a serious problem. I know that the Minister will tell us it is a serious problem, not only in Manitob a but perhaps in the prairies, in the prairie provinces, and I would think that the engineers would probably have, in my opinion, have maybe le sse ned, or their requirements are not as great now as they used to be a few years ago.

Maybe that' s the problem, that we' re having as many problems with our paved highways, because I know when there' s a crack in the pavement , in the ce ment, the moisture get in ther e, the water gets in there and we have a road crew come and fill it with tar and you have a bump in the highway, and the Minister would only have to take a trip from here to Falcon Lake and he'll find out. At times you hit a stretch, you hit a stretch and you think you' re riding on horseback. Well surely that shouldn't happen to a new highway.

Surely the engineer s, in my opinion, are not making the roads as las ting as they should be, or they' re not putting the suffici ent strength in the cement, there' s something wrong, or not sufficient reinforce ment, Mr. Speaker, because you don't have to go too far out of Manitoba, ju st across the line, and you'll find , or even into Ontario - and they have cold weather just like we have, and yet their highways seem to stand up much better than ours do.

So perhaps the Minister could check with his engineering department and see what can be done to make the highways last longer and to build them and construct them much stronger. The other point perhaps that we could concern ourselves under this resolution, Mr. Speaker , is the safety. Are the highways built safe enough? And this one of the members has just mentioned. I know that there are knoll s in the highway that motorists cannot see very far ahead, which causes many accid ents. I know one road that the Minister can find for himself, it's not too far from the City, Sturgeon Road, from St. James to Inkster.

I know the Minister will say it' s not his road, it' s the City of Winnipeg. But there' s two turns without any upgrad ing, that cars at the slow speed of 35 miles have rolled or upset, and it's amaz ing that we would build a road like that. There' s a curve, a very sharp curve where a road was put through an open field. And I know, I' m sure the Minister is familiar with that piece of high way. So what I'm sa ying at the present time are we giving enough consid eration as far as safety is concerned in respect to curves and re

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-2-18
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 2nd hansardpdf 18.pdf
Language	en
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