THE MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY 8:00 o'clock, Friday, March 15th, 1963. MR. CHAIRMAN: Department IV, Resolution 24. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, at the interval I had just come to the point in the statement concerning the Civil Defence matters where, having described the objectives that the govern­ ment has in front of us and the policies, I was going to return to the point of reporting the pro­ gress that has been accomplished. To prepare for emergencies either man-made or unn atural, the following plans and train­ ing have been accomplished.

The municipalities have been grouped into 45 emergency areas, each capable of carrying on emergency functions of municipal government •. Of this total, some 38 have reached a satisfactory state of organization. Training -- to assist in the training of both municipal and provincial staffs in their emer­ gency roles, a provincial civil defence college has been established in the Agricultural College Building in Brandon and a total of 13 courses of from three to five days duration in each were conducted by the staff of the co-ordinator during the period under review.

A total of 667 per­ sons have been trained in this manner and many of them, in turn, have been able to give further instruction in their home areas. The subjects studied were basic orientation, radiation moni­ toring, emergency lodging, emergency feeding and general welfare. In addition to the above, a total of 163 persons have been sent for more advanced training to the Federal Civil Defence College at Arnprior, Ontario. Hospital Plans -- The Department of Health has been actively assisting hospitals with their disaster plans and to date a total of 18 plans have been approved.

The approval of such a written plan results in a free issue to the hospital of a hospital disaster kit, which is a most valuable item in the event of any disaster be it a train crash, air crash or the much more fre­ quent highway accidents. Plans for the marking of provincial highways to indicate the location of hospitals have been approved and signs will be erected in the near future. Many hospitals have proceeded with the erection of hospital directional signs, using civil defence colors. The locations of all hospitals are indicated in the 1962 and 1963 Provincial Highway maps.

During a recent near-emergency at the Winnipeg International Airport, our civil defence organization was alerted and was prepared to provide additional stretchers. One Metro Winnipeg Hospital with an approved disaster plan, on the receipt of a single phone call alerted 40 doctors and had 60 emergency beds ready. We expect, with a short time, to have located in the Winnipeg Inter­ national Airport an emergency medical unit capable of handling 500 casualties at a moment's notice. First Aid-- Working with St.

John's Ambulance and the Canadian Red Cross, the country­ wide program of training in first aid, home nursing and hospital experience courses was carried forward in many hundreds of persons were trained in these skills. Fire -- In conjunction with the Provincial Fire Commissioner, 14 fire schools were held in various parts of the province, using the recently modified and up-to-date civil cefence train­ ing pumper which has developed as a model training unit. In addition to the training pumper, other fire-fighting units are located in Winnipeg, Brandon and Dauphin.

Three of our pumpers were fighting the Duck Mountain forest fire in 1961; and, on other occasions, were called to fires at Elie and St. Rose du Lac and other fires in their respective zones. Public Works; Equipment and Resources -- The Provincial Department of-Public Works, together with the Department of Mines and Natural Resources, has carried out several study groups with the Canadian Army and are prepared to support them with their full resources should the need for re-entry into a bomb�damaged area in Manitoba ever becomes a necessity or a major natural disaster recur.

Exercises by the Department of Public Works have indicated a commendable state of readiness for this duty. Co-operation between the Army and the depart­ ment is excellent. Our six emergency rescue trucks are being assigned to the Department of Public Works and will be maintained in the department's buildings. In the meantime, they will be available for training and rescue operations as required by the Provincial Rescue Training Program which is at present being discussed between the co-ordinator and the Canadian Army.

Welfare -- The Provincial Department of Welfare is making rapid strides in their· March 15th, 1963 Page 323

(Mr. Evans, cont'd) ••••• emergency planning and two study groups for senior members of the d�partment have been held under the direction of the co-<>rdinator. AgricUlture -- The Department of Agriculture is progressing with the training of its staff in their duties. Should Manitoba ever be subjected to heavy radiation fallout, courses for this staff have been held in co-operation with the co-<>rdinator. Greatly increased demands would be placed on our existing food supplies in the event of war and, for this reason, long­ range planni ng and the training of staff is essential.

Even though the agricultural productivity of the country may not be drastically reduced, direction as to the choice of crops might well have to be made. In addition to the departments referred to, many other provincial employees have been assigned emergency tasks with federal departments, such as the Department of Defence Pro­ duction, and have received training and exercises in their emergency roles within the war sup­ plies agency.

During the year under review the co-ordinator attended a Western Command Survival exercise at Vancouver and the annual Federal-Provincial Ministers Conference at ottawa; and, in addition, visited the Civil Defence Director for the State of Minnesota at St. Paul. During the Cuban crisis last October, the Provincial Civil Defence Organization operated on a 24-hour basis and alerted and briefed all provincial government departments and munici­ palities on the situation as it was known.

Many thousands of phone calls and letters were re­ ceived by both provincial and municipal civil defence offices and all requests for information were filled, copies of the pamphlets "Eleven Steps to Survival"; "Survival in Likely Target Areas"; "Your Basement Fallout Shelter"; "Simpler Shelters"; and "Your Emergency Pack"; being mailed to enquirers. I might say I have copies of these pamphlets tonight and they will be distributed immediately to all the members for their interest. The Department of Education, with the co-operation of the co-<>rdinator, issued a direc­ tive to all schools.

Emergency plans were requested from each school and to date a total of 230 have been received. The Manitoba Flood-Fighting Plan has been reviewed and revised, and all departments and agencies with a role in this emergency task are fully aware of their responsibilities should the need arise. In co�peration with our Civil Defence Organization, Metro Winnipeg Civil Defence was constructed on provincial property in the Headingley area.

What was constructed was a fallout­ proof emergency communication centre capable of controlling all Greater Winnipeg Police and Fire Departments from that point; and a further very high frequency radio link rearwards to the Army target area headquarters at Portage la Prairie is now under construction. While this emergency communications network has a wartime use, it can also be used in peacetime to alert and direct emergency police and fire vehicles in the event of natural disaster or wide­ spread police activity. That completes the outline of the Progress Report to this point. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I want to thank the Minister for his statement on civil defence, and I am glad to see that some progress has been made since last year. I feel how­ ever, Mr. Chairman, that the government, in spite of the expenditure that it is making in this item, really hasn't come to grips with the problem as completely as it should. It seems to me that the situation that arose last October, at the time of the Cuban crisis, is the best example of that very situation.

On Monday night the 22nd of October, 1962, President Kennedy was on the television circuits in the United States and announced the policy of the United States with regard to the Cuban situation at that time. We find tb:ll.t the Government of Manitoba at that time had apparently no policy insofar as the schools, for example, in this province, because according to the Manitoba Gazette it wasn't until the 24th of October, some two days later, that the Minister of Education filed Manitoba Regulation 1962, being a regulation under The Education Department Act respecting emergency measures in the schools. Surely, Mr.

Chair­ Itiim; ·if the government feels that this matter of Civil Defence is serious, and I don't think anyone will disagree that it is, how can the Minister possibly explain that it wasn't until two days after an apparent emergency was upon us that decisions were taken by this government t6 ·ao: something about some emergency regulations for our schools. I can't understand how we couid have gone on for this long without having established that very basic decision on the part of the government. Page 324 March 15th, 1963

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) ••••• In other fields as well, Mr. Chairman, I don't think that the government is doing all that it can and all that it should to see to it that the information required, in this difficult field I will admit, and I will be the first to admit that it's difficult to get people very concerned about this, and yet I don't think the government is taking the steps that it can and that it should. I have here, for example, the telephone books produced by the government through one of its crown corporations.

These are in most homes in the Province of Manitoba and are a very useful method of getting information to the public. You take the rural phone book to begin with, Mr.

Chairman, and you find page one is explanatory only; page two and three, how to use your telephone; page 4, long distance; page five, there's an advertisement for using station to station; pages six and seven are some advertisements for various services that the telephone system can provide such as bell chimes and speaker phones; page eight are terms and condi­ tions of service; and finally, on page nine we reach the one and only page in all of the telephone book having anything to do at all with civil defence and it simply says: "Radioactive fallout fol­ lows no highways. It can affect you.

Are you prepared." And then it recommends to you that you phone or contact your local civil defence office. That, Mr. Chairman, is the sum substance of the use made of the provincial phone book in this regard. You come along to the city telephone book and there's some progress here because we find on page two in this case --so at least we've moved up some seven pages --the metropo­ litan civil defence dispersal routes. But that aga,in, except for that one page, is the one and only indication of anything at all in this book regarding what should be done in this field. It seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, that here is a place that we could get a lot more information out to the public of Manitoba, in two publications produced by the government and available in al­ most every home, so I would recommend to the government the use of those two, first of all, to get the information across. I know my honourable friend has supplied us right now with an envelope containing, I pre­ sume, the 11 steps to survival and other material. I suspect, Mr.

Chairman, that there are very few people in the province who have availed themselves of this and, if they do go to the trouble of getting it, I suspect once it gets in the home they look at it and will proceed to lose it or it will get lost somewhere,

whereas the telephone book is one that is always available and handy in the home and there's the place to get the information across. The Winnipeg book gives the dispersal routes. I find that in some of the American cities, for example Minneapo­ lis, that not only do they give this same information but, in addition, they mark their dispersal routes in the city; and as you travel through the City of Minneapolis and St. Paul, you see all the dispersal routes marked with special signs, so .that there is no possibility of confusion on the part of the people concerned.

So this, it seems to me, would be another step that the government could take here in the Province of Manitoba in seeing to it that action can be taken by the public if an emergency arises. In addition to that, Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that we should make a change in the responsibilities of this office. I appreciate that previously this was carried under another de­ partme nt, the Department of Industry and Commerce, and now it's followed the Minister into. the Department of the Provincial Secretary. However, should the emergency arise, Mr.

Chairman, and let us take the situation last October when it was almost impossible for us here to judge what could happen--it could have happened under very short notice --it seems to me that this office should be directly linked to that of the First Minister who, in the final ana­ lysis, is the individual who is in the position to make the decision insofar as the Province of Manitoba is concerned.

Should there be an emergency, there'll be no time to call a Cabinet meeting; there'll be no time to get people together; there will only be time to make a very rapid decision as to what action should be taken; and I would recommend that the Civil Defence be transferred to the department of the First Minister and be under his direct responsibility. If the First Minister feels that he's overloaded now with other departments such as that of the Provincial Treasurer, then no doubt he can arrange to transfer that to other personnel.

But this one of Civil Defence, if the time comes when action is required, will not permit of consul­ tation or of meetings. It will require immediate action. · Those then, Mr. Chairman, are some of the few comments that I want to make at this stage on this most important matter of civil defence. It seems to me that we have been March 15th, 1963 Page 325

(M�, Molgat, cont'd) ••••• spending money here in the province now for some time on this. W� �¥\le that insofar as the Estimates here it only indicat es some fifty-two thousand. Well we m�t remember that a very large amount is paid for by the Federal Government and a very !11,rge amount paid for by the municipalities and, as the senior government here in the area, it's up to the province to see to it that the program is administered in the best way possible pd that we get value for our money.

It seems to me that these actions that I list are the very l�ast that the government could take, and I come back then to the point about the schools. I gannot understand, Mr. Chairman, how we could have gone on. I'm surprised that when the emergency did arise this government had not proceeded any further than the indications are, and that is that �here was absolutely no emergency plan set up for the schools, particularly in the City of Winnipeg. MR. EVANS: I wonder if my honourable friend would allow me to make some comments on the points made by the Leader of the Opposition.

It simply is not true that there was no plan for schools up to that date because schools, being a municipal responsibility, are cer­ tainly included in the municipal plans. I outlined for my honourable friend the extent to which all the municipalities have in fact been organized and further organized into emergency groups, and their instructions have been from the beginning that children will, on the first sign of any difficulty, be returned to th eir homes and will be looked after under the responsibility of the household.

So the plan has been in effect; it has been operational; the municipalities have known how to run it for a good deal of time now. It was a wise precaution to require the schools to make their further written plans and codify them, so that if personnel changed or if there were change of command in the various schools, it would be written down and become a formal part of their responsibilities. I think the comments about the use of the telephone book are not out of place. The pur­ pose for which the Winnipeg telephone book is used is to display for people the escape route nearest their particular homes.

In all the publicity, the pamphlets, the instructions that have been given and the courses that have been issued, this has been drawn to the attention of all the students and, rather than have it cluttered up with a variety of instructions which are pro­ vided through other means, it was decided to use the Winnipeg telephone book for the one pur­ pose of displaying the escape routes or the dispersal routes.

Whether or not Metro Winnipeg, as it continues to develop its plan, will think of other uses for the telephone book I don't know, but it mustn 't be forgotten that the Metro civil defence organization is in charge, in Metropo'­ litan Winnipeg, of civil defence matters, and that rather than us impose a plan on them or en­ deavour to put for them any particular material in the telephone book, I think that would be a mistake. If they decide to use the telephone book for furthe r purposes themselves they'll have the Utmost co-operation from the province.

As to the change of responsibility for operating the Civil Defence Department, certainly as the responsible Minister I work in the closest co-operation and have the most intimate backing of the Premier in all that I do. I think in this sense it is more trile than almost any other function of government that I regard myself as the adjutant of the officer commanding in this particular case, and that is the Premier.

But I think we should also remember that res­ ponsibility in this regard is removed even from the province to some extent because it is a decision of the Emergency Measures Office in Ottawa and of the Prime Minister personally when an alarm shall be sounded to the people, and that may indeed -- the alarm may well be sounded on the authority of Ottawa and does not require the consideration here of all the many factors involved, including the analysis of information about what aircraft may be in the air; what signs there may be picked up at NORAD that missiles"mightbe on the way; or how im­ pending th e international situation may be.

And so this scheme is far better developed than my honourable friend has acquainted himself with and responsibilities are far more definitely assigned than he has taken into account in the comments that be made tonight. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I think that I should make one or two comments on the Minister's statement and also on the question of civil defence in general.

I think from the Minister's opening remarks in regard to this very important matter that if we learn nothing else from the remarks of the Honourable Minister but the fact that we must take all steps to prevent a nuclear war, then his statement this evening is of some value because he has, quite properly I think, pointed out to us in his opening statements the devastation that would be Page 326 March 15th, 1963

(�r. Paulley, cont'd) ••••• caused as the result of any nuclear war; and, in effect-- in effect I think, �r. Chairman, in his statements, pin-pointed very, very concisely the fact that there is no defence insofar as nuclear warfare is concerned and that the points of fallout shelters and this, that and the other are actually inconsequential. Now then, I agree with all of those aspects of the training of civil defence insofar as national disasters are concerned and it's good that training is taking place in these fields.

I'm glad to know that there's training being undertaken at the present time, for instance, inso­ far as the fire disaster. I was quite interested in the remarks of the Honourable �inister as to the availability of equipment recently here in the City of Winnipeg where there may have been a disaster insofar as a plane whose landing gear stuck and there were some difficulties there, and I think that this is good and I appreciate the fact that it is being carried out. But I was intrigued with a few of the remarks of my honourable friend in connection with the disposition of government for instance.

Now the �inister went to great detail of telling us in this House that the government would be moved from this location to another location, and if not that location some other location in order that the seat of government or the functions of government might be continued in the event of a nuclear attack. I think I recall just recently that the Prime �inister was called to task because of the fact that he disclosed some informa­ tion of a s9rt of a secret nature insofar as equipment, in this instance, was concerned; and I wonder, �r.

Chairman, whether it is advisable in a public body such as we here are, for the �inister to tell the enemy where the alternative· seats of government are going to be, because if we hit right here, well then certainly if it's the desire to wipe out government the �inister has already told the enemy where to point their swords at next. -- (Interjection) -- Yes, that's it.

The Honourable the �inister of Health hit the nail right on the head, and that's why I say and why I reaffirm each year when we're discussing the question of civil defence, that that is the thing, the most important thing for us to do, b.ecause there is no defence insofar as nuclear war if it's an all-out nuclear war. Now then reference was made, and the Leader of the Liberal Party made mention of it insofar as instructions to school children, the dispersal of children in schools -- to leave their schools and go home.

I don't know what type of warning that the �inister of Education had in mind that would be received at the time as to the time element of the children leaving school and going home. It might be far better for them to stay in the school, .and I can appreciate the anxiety and worry of the parents in the event of an att.ack insofar as their children are con­ cerned. But there's one thing, �r.

Chairman, that was drawn to my attention at the time that the �inister of Education issued the instruction to these schools, . that at that particular time, if my information is correct, the public schools were notified but the separate schools were not notified. I've had this drawn to my attention on numerous occasions and I would like to have this confirmed or otherwise. �R. �cLEAN: Yes, right here and now. The private schools were given the full infor­ mation within, indeed I'm inclined to think they had it even before the press people had it, but they had it within a matter of an hour or two the same day. �.

PAULLEY: �y information was ••••• �R. �cLEAN: From me personally. �R. PAULL EY: Pardon? � . �cLEAN: .••••.• from me personally. �R. PAULLEY: Well I'm glad to hear that. Also, �r. Chairman •••• •• • �R. �cLEAN: I thought you would. �R. PA ULLEY: Pardon? � . �cLEAN: I thought you would. � . PAULLEY:. Yes, I am, because my information, �r. Chairman, was different to what the �inister said, and now this point has been clarified in my mind.

Now then, while listening to the Honourable the Provincial Secretary talking of dispersal of population, if I re­ call correctly, he said something to the effect that we can go where we can in the event of warning. Now it seems to me that if this is the statement -- if this is a correct statement -­ or my correct recollection of the �mister's remarks, it seems to me rather foolish to suggest that we just go wherever we can. Now then, the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition has referred to the dispersal �arch 15th, 1963 Page 327

f!.W�" ?aulley, cont'd) •••• routes in the telephone --I don't know whether the people in the IC:iW of Transcona don't count or not, but I don't think, if memory serves me correctly, that lt:ll �e map showing the dispersal routes in the telephone directory of the City of Winnipeg, it .$ows the dispersal routes for the City of Transcona. The map in question, and I thank the Qilonourable the Member for Ste. Rose for giving it to me, the map in question shows many 'tlispersal routes from areas but it doesn't make any reference directly to the City of Trans­ .cona.

It might be just an omission, but the area of Transcona is not shown on the map as to where their dispersal route should be, because in order to reach Highway 59 and Highway 15 which is plotted in the lay-out of the map, it would be necessary for these citizens of the City of Transcop.a to take a few detours in order to get on the way out. Now then I have here, Mr. Chairman, one of the booklets that the Honourable Minister laid before us this evening.

This one is called "Survival and Likely Target Areas --Blue­ print for Survival, No. 5." I would refer him to page No. 10, and I'm using this as illustrat­ ing that things move so rapidly today in the field of nuclear weapons and scientific warfare that even a book that is printed today is out of date by tomorrow, because we find on page 10 reference to bomber attacks, which states that ''bomber attacks will continue to be a major part of an enemy attacking force and that these would be detected by the DEW Line", etcetera.

Now it seems to me that, if I understand correctly, that even the hierarchy of the military and others in high posts in government are telling us now pretty well that the day of the manned bomber and the bomber attack in respect of nuclear weapons is gone. So I use this, Mr. Chairman, .as an illustration of rapidly-changing ideas in the field of nuclear warfare and nuclear weapons. Now then, the Minister mentioned a number of courses that are going on and I said that these are all to the good.

I didn't quite catch what he said in reference to agriculture, but I'm sure that if the honourable members will study the books as I have done, they will find that there is every likelihood, in the realm of agriculture, that as the result of fallout, radiation fallout and the likes of that, an attack is liable to render unproductive the land for years to come and that the radiation fallout for a 5 megaton bomb, I believe that's what the book illus­ trates here, would be somewhere around about, I think, 50 miles wide and 120 or 200 miles in length depending on the velocity of the wind and the likes of that.

I also want to point out this. I haven't heard anything further, but I do recall that there was quite a news story here about a month or six weeks ago that just across the border of the Province of Manitoba that launching pads were being built or assembled in the United States of America. Now at one time we did feel that here in the Greater Winnipeg area that we would be considered more or less of a secondary target. It does seem to me, Mr.

Chairman, that it's becoming more and more evident, if the information that was contained in the Free Press, I believe it was at that time, is correct, that there is a likelihood of us becoming a prime target rather than a secon­ dary one as the advances warrant. Now in referring directly to the estimates, Mr.

Chairman, I note that there is some reduction in the expenditures proposed, both in the expenditure that we are directly concerned with on Item No. 24 and I also note that there is a considerable reduction in the expenditures recoverable from the Dominion of Canada, and I would like to hear the Minister's comments in respect of these reductions and why. In conclusion at this particular point, Mr.

Chairman, I want to once again affirm our belief, and I'm sure the belief is held by everybody, that the only--the only real defence is making sure that there is never started a nuclear war or nuclear weapons are not employed for the use that they have been built. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the reduced amounts this year, the de­ crease is a total of $7 9, 918, explained as follows: reduction of total expenditures to keep within the maximum limit of federal contribution.

The Federal Government made a limit on their contribution to Manitoba of $240,000, which reduced the total expenditure to $320, 000. 00. This reduction was possible because·a number of municipalities were participating for the first time in 1962-63 and did not require their full operating budgets. That accounted for $30,718.00. Then the decrease from the actual program budgeted for 1962-63 are detailed as follows: a decrease of $4,200 --the automobile for the Deputy Co-ordinator and the fire pumper equipment purchased in 1962-63 will not be repeated this year; no new staff are Page 328 March 15th, 1963

(Mr. Evans, cont'd) •.••• planned. A reduction of $3 0,000 because 26 of the 36 emergency area projects were new in 1962-63 and included provisions for furniture, office equipment and some office alterations, which will not be repeated in 1963-64. Metro Winnipeg -- $15,000.00. The major purchase of communications equipment and construction of communications building at Headingley for Metro in 1962-63 will not be repeated in 1963-64, which accounts for the total reduction of $79 ,000.00. MR. DESJARD INS: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to add a few remarks to this.

I might say that if it wasn't so tragic, it would be kind of amusing to listen to the Leader of the NDP. First of all, he agrees with the Minister of Health that one bomb could destroy everybody and he throws his arms up in the air and there's not much use of having a defence. Then he doesn't think that we should have any defence at all. Oh no, he said that the best defence would be a wish-- a wish that nobody attacks us. That's all it is. Then, although he doesn't believe too much in defence, he's quite concerned about the people of Transcona.

Of course, he does be­ long to the group who is very, very positive in their policy on defence. I thought that things weren't too good in this civil defence business. I didn't think it was too bad though until I heard the Honourable Minister say that we had to wait until we heard from Ottawa before we could act on this, that actually they'd have the last word. Well I can tell you that that scared me an awful lot, because if they take as much time to arrive at a decision on this as they do on other things, I think we would be wiped off the face of the earth before any decision \\Ould happen.

But then I think that there is a possibility of having a disaster here without war. I think civil defence is for all those things. There could be a disaster. If we had to wait until somebody comes in from Ottawa, if we have no communication and so on, it could be pretty difficult also. I certainly think there is an. awful lot of merit in the suggestion that my Leader made that this civil defence should go directly under the Premier. I want to explain here, Mr.

Chairman, that I don't think the Premier is more qualified than the Honourable Minister -- I still don't know if he's finished his own shelter -- but I think it should be co-ordinated. Now we 're told that we have to wait to get an answer from Ottawa; then the municipalities are res­ ponsible; then Metro is responsible. I think there's a co-ordinator for the province; a co­ ordinator for Metro; and all of a sudden the Minister of Education comes in. I don't know who's responsible.

I was very happy to hear that he did know that there was such a thing as separate schools and that surprised me, because I'd heard-- I'd received my information pro-' bably from the same source as the Honourable Leader of the NDP -- and I was told that when questioned by these people as to what they should do, he said be had no jurisdiction. Now I think that appeared in the paper too. I'm glad to know that this wasn't true, because I didn't think that he would go that far. Now the Leader of the NDP also stated that maybe the children shouldn't go home; they should be kept in school.

Well from some of the directives -- I'd like to tell him, Mr. Chair­ man, that some of the directives that some students received at some schools, they had a choice. Certain grades go home and certain grades stay in the school. I think they'd even practised that, some of them to see how fast they can go in the halls and the others have had . to tun all the way home to see how fast they can get there. You can just imagine what kind of a chaos that'll be if something like this happens. I think this civil defence has been going on for quite awhile.

This government prides it­ self on all the work that it has done in the field of education. They've built an awful lot of schools; they've built gyms and a lot of that is true; but I know this has been suggested be­ fore and we never even received an answer. I think that it should be something that should be looked into, the possibility of having these gyms to be underground when they build these new schools and that would be a good shelter for all the people around there and their children.

I think that if they have no clear-c ut idea of where they are going to go, some children -- you just imagine I might have a child in Grade 5 -- well five and under go home and the others stay. What am I going to do? It's going to be pretty difficult. I don't think that that's good enough. Now we've been having courses on this for quite awhile, in fact here's a card here that-­ my number in civil defence course was 5069 in March, 1952. I followed the course and it was a very good course. I think it was General McNaughton at the time who was in charge. I was an alderman in the Cit y of St.

Boniface, but since then nothing, and I think that was it. It was March 15th, 1963 Page 329

(Mr. Desjardins, cont'd) ••••• a waste of time. You'd think that the people -- they'd hli.ve a list of the people that have done this work and they should ask them to assist them, but it seems to be just a junket or a trip for some of the people in the municipal field or maybe in this field, and as soon as they're no longer there or when they've had their trip, somebody else will go. This is too serious for that and there's way too much money spent.

You'd think the least they could do is keep a list of these people that have done this work, that have had this course, and try to have them form some kind of a committee locally, or in the province. I don't agree that Metro should be responsible for this. I think you will have to co-operate; you will send some people out of town and so on and it would be very_ difficult. I don't think that this is a thing that should be left to Metro at all. It should be kept in the hands of the government. At least in a case like this, you need the highest authority in the province.

That's why I think that the suggestion was very good that the Premier should have the .last word.on that and that you shouldn't have to phone Metro or phone your municipality or phone the schoolboard or phone the Minister of Education or the Minister of Industry of Commerce.

And then you can look in the -- of course you'd have the phone book handy then -- and you can look at what route you should follow to leave the city, I think that the department or whoever is responsible -- I'm not going to name him again -- who is responsible for civil defence missed quite an occasion when we had this fiasco when everybody was scared and runn ing around when we had this Cuba crisis. I think that at the I time the people were kind of shocked and I think they would have listened and listened a little better. I think it would be a very good time.

Maybe we needed something like this because tb6 people are not worried until they see this thing coming. I think that, through the radio or television, we could have given some kind of indication, some kind of ideas to the people what they should do. At this time it seems that this business of civil defence -- and it's a must that we should do something, but nobody -- and this is not a slap in the face to this government -- it seems that from Ottawa down, nobody seems to know what to do on this.

Maybe on this special point I would agree with the Honourable the Leader of the NDP that we might as well not waste this money if we don't get a better program, and if there's not more co-operation and continu- ity in this business of civil defence, I mean that this should continue even if there is a change of government, if different parties form a different government in the provinces and also in Ottawa. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, if I may just make a ...... ,. . MR. EV ANS: If I could just make one brief comment. It would be a great advantage to the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface if he would take some of the civil defence college training so that he knows what he's talking about. ·' MR . PAULLEY: I wasn't going to put it exactly that way, Mr. Chairman, but somewhat similar. My honourable friend at the offset of his remarks there made reference to me and . the position of my Party, and then further on he mentioned about, "Why wait for Ottawa - let's get something done". I don't think I should really, but I'm going to.

The Liberal Party itself, particularly as far as Manitoba, had to await the headlines of the Winnipeg Free Press before they knew what they were. going to do in the matter of nuclear weapons, because the great oracle, the head of their Party had not spoken at the time as the adjournment for lunch during their recent convention, so while my honourable friends -- (Interjection) --Yes, the Leader of the Party says it was just a question of time. What time was the. Fuehrer -- what time was the Fuehrer going to change his mind? That was the only

part inrespect of the timing. . So I'm not concerned either, Mr. Chairman, and I agree with the Honourable the Minis- ter in this instance in reference to civil defence card holder No. 5092, or whatever -- 69 -­ and I would suggest that 5069, dated 1952 -- I agree with the Minister that the knowledge that the Honourable Member for St. Boniface may have garnered at that time has been dissipated in his oratory ever since then. He makes a reference to the question of the point that I raised of the City of Transcona not being designated on the Metropolitan map. I do this because the people are concerned.

We of our group, unlike certain other groups, are concerned about the question of nuclear weapons and nuclear warfare. While we have this condition then I think that the people of the City of Transcona should be included in a dispersal route, and I think it was quite a legitimate point for me to raise in respect of the advertising on that. I suggest to the Minister that the authority just take a recheck on that, because I value the people of the Page 330 March 15th, 1963

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) .•••• City of Transcona even if my honourable friend from st. Boniface doesn't seem to worry too much about one of the residents of that great city. MR. EVANS: The point will be considered very seriously and drawn to. the attention of Metro with the object of having any like remedies in that connection. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I listened quite carefully this afternoon to what the Honourable Minister had to say about the civil defence that comes in his department, and while I was listening I was trying to define and find out in my mind where the various respon­ sibilities lay as regards to federal and provincial; and one of the things I found out, in listen­ ing to the Honourable Minister, was that it was a provincial responsibility to help the people of Manitoba to reduce loss of life.

Now, at this level of government we are not charged with defence and we are not charged with the overall responsibility of the civilian defence but, by his admission, there was something that the government of Manitoba should be doing, and I listened quite carefully and I never did hear an answer to the question I had in my mind. Now the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party expressed the opinion that the Manitoba Telephone Directory could be used to give out information to the people of Manitoba as to what they should do at a time of emergency; what is expected of them; what could possibly happen.

And as we look at this telephone book, at this particular ad on page 9 I believe it is, in the rural part of the Province Directory, we find that this page is taken up about three-quarters with a nice picture. I would suggest that this information could be moved to the front cover. It is so important that when the time comes when something happens like happened on October 22nd, that there is no time to pick up a phone and start calling for information, expecially if 100, 000 homes should have to call for this information all at once.

To impress upon the Minister what I'm talking about, I would like to read a few excerpts from the Readers' Digest of March 1963, and this is talking about what the President of the United States was saying when he spoke to the nation: "No man has ever spoken from a posi­ tion of such awesome strength as did President Kennedy that night October 22nd, 1962. The moment he began, an order was given in the joint war-room in the Pentagon, and lights and numbers flashed on electronic display boards at every key US Command Post in the world with a single exception.

All elements of the US military establishment, world-wide, went to defence condition three. There are five def. cons., as the abbreviation reads. Def. con. 5 is the normal peace-time alert posture; def. con. 2 is the most urgent. It puts a unit on a full war footing, from which it needs but one signal to go to def. con. 1, at which point it is at war. While the other military elements went to def. con. 3, the single exception .was the one that meant the most. The Strategic Air Command went to def. con. 2.

Earlier that day, orders had been flashed, SAC or Strategic Air Command-wide from the Commander-,in-Chief's war room." Now the reason I read this is, I hope it has impressed upon us how close we were to the final condition. We find a city like Winnipeg is within a hundred miles of the defence .missile or offence missile complex like they have in North Dakota. I'm astounded, to say the least, to hear that there wasn't even a report given today on the state of alert and the state of readi­ ness of the civil defence organization that Manitoba is responsible for.

And as for the fatuous remarks by the Leader of the NDP Party, I would like to know where he gets his defence infor­ mation when he says-- and he throws up his hand and he says there's no defence. Perhaps the time the bow and arrow came into use there may have been some expert at that time throw up his hands and say there's no defence for that either. We're not suggestiD.g here f<>r one minute that we have in Manitoba a defence, but we have an obligation to our people to supply them and to help them and guide them with means of survival.

I would also like to know when he made the remarks the other day about there's no de­ fence against the mann ed bomber, where he got his inf ormation? For your information, if you would care to check with senior defence officials in Canada -- (Interjection) --You said that the mann ed bomber was obsolete -- pardon me -- you said the manned bomber was obso­ lete. I withdraw what I said, but I put this forward, that you said the manned bomber was obsolete and I say that this is not true.

It is a well-known fact, and our senior military men say that the mann ed bomber is an offensive weapon for up to the next ten years, and it is to be considered when we are setting up our defences. I don't like the idea of the way this Chamber takes it as a joke when they laugh about things like this. We have a responsibility to the people, March 15th, 1963 Page 331

(Mr. Johnston, cont'd) ••••• and as far a8 I am concerned this government never fulfilled their responsibility at that time, and I'm speaking now of October the 22nd. I would like to quote a little bit more out of this. This is a man speaking at the time the Russian ships were on the way to Cuba carrying missile equipment, and this was the con­ dition that existed.

At that time we had reason to believe that the Soviets were sending sub­ marines along with these ships and there was some question what they would do about it, and it is said here: "A Soviet submarine would sink a US navy ship and poof -there would be World War m." _When this went on last October, and the condition of Manitoba's civil defence is such from what we've heard tonight, well I wonder what's going on. I wonder what the thinking is of the people who are taking this $270,000 and using it. I'm surprised. MR.

EVANS: There are a great many things that surprise and astonish my honourable friend that he doesn't know about. He has described the state of alert and readiness to which the American Army and Air Force and Navy bring themselves and describes quite accurately the system of alerts that they have, because I've seen it. I've been down at NORAD and seen it and had it described and I think I'm aware of some of the details in that connection. It is not up to me to report the state of readiness of the Canadian Army and the Canadian Navy and the Canadian Air Force, nor of the Ott awa organization.

It is my responsibility to report the state of readiness of the Manitoba Civil Defence organization, which I tell you was in a full state of readiness. If my honourable friend had only been listening, he would have heard me say that the entire organization was put on _ 24-hour duty, There was no time at all during that crisis when the office was not fully operational and ready to put the Manitoba Civil Defence plan into operation. If my honourable friend would inform himself of the situation before he undertakes these sweeping categorical statements, I think he'd have a more valuable contribu­ tion to make. MR.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I didn't state that the province was responsible for defence • I'm talking about the civil defence. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I want to come back to some of the statements made by the Minister, because really this is of supreme importance," this whole question of civil defence, and either we take this seriously and take the action that is required or we forget all about it and quit spending money on it.

I don't think the government has taken this seriously, Now we come along to this matter of the schools, and I outlined that on the 22nd of October the President of the United States, in effect, declared emergency; yet it wasn't until two days later that the Minister of Education proceeded to do something. Now my honourable friend says that this wasn•tthe Minister of Education's responsibility, that this came under the. muni­ cipalities. --(Interjection) --well this is certainly what I understood from my friend, that this came under the municipal responsibility.

Well then, what I would like to know from the Minister is this, what action had either the Minister responsible for civil defence in this province or the Minister of Education taken until that time to find out if the schools were actually in a state of readiness or not? Had they found out? If they have found out, what was the purpose then, upon the 24th of October, issu­ ing this instruction? Is the department responsible or is it not? What was the state of readi­ ness? MR.

EVANS: The state of readiness in the municipality was adequate to convey warning down to the schools and to every home in the municipality, or in the province, through the various means including telephone fan-out, of any impending disaster, which information would be relayed to Manitoba by the office in Ottawa --the office of the Prime Minister in Ot­ tawa; and until such intelligence was received, it would be completely irresponsible for a province or anyone else to declare any state of readiness or any state of emergency that had not been authorized from Ottawa.

That's the plan on which we are working and I think it's the only responsible plan, and indeed it's the same plan that's in effect in the United States in their jurisdiction. My statement was not that this was not the responsibility of the Minister. If the Honour­ able Leader had listened to me he ',VOUld have heard me say that the scheme was adequate to close the schools and get the children home because the municipal organization was ready to do it--able to do it; and would have got the children home. But we did say that it would be better to· improve the situation by preparing written plans.

As a matter of fact, we've been Page 332 March 15th, 1963

(Mr. Evans, cont'd) ••••• prepared to take action in a good many fields before writte n plans have been completed, and this has been true through three national exercises now that have been conduc ted in increasing states of efficiency over a period of three years, but it's only now that some of the lessons that have been learned then are being written in formal written plans and manuals for the guidance of people so that they may be codified and mainta ined on a common system throughout the province.

Now there 's no conflict between my statement to the effect that there was in practice a system and a means for warning the schools and having the children returned home and the statement that on a certain date some of these plans, partly gleaned from experience , are being written down for the record. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, had the Ministe r of Education, prior to the 22nd of October, ascertaine d from the schools of this province their state of readiness insofar as civil defence? MR . McLEAN: Mr. Chairman , perhaps I might just say something here.

First of all, during the time in question I had the privilege of being the Acting Minister of Industry and Commerce , so I had some association at the time the Ministe r of Industry and Commerce was responsible for civil defence in Manit oba, and I would like to just make this brief testi­ mony, that it is quite erroneous for anyone to say that the civil defence organization in Mani­ toba was not in a state of readiness. I say to the members of this committee that it was, and I was much impressed with the thoroughgoing plans which that or ganizatio n had.

I know that because of the duties which came to me at that particular time. The Director of Civil Defence , or whatever his title is, met with me frequently, sometimes more than once in one day, and I was at no time under any impression that the plans were not in readiness and could have been brought into execution just instantan eously. Now that's a general comment. Now it is perfectly true , also, to point out that so far as schools are concerned they don't fall into any special category except and until we wish to put them into a special category.

In other words, we don't have special rules that apply to service garages or any particular occupations or groups of citizens. In other words, what I'm saying is that the gen eral plans with respect to civil defence applied to schools just the same as they applied to any other vocation or group of people, but. it had been suggeste d by the civil defence people , in the work­ ing out of their plans, that it might be advisable to have a set of regulations that would be is- . sued by the Department of Education for the particular assistance of the schools.

For that purpose , this Legislature passed an amendment to The Department of Education Act which would permit such regulations to be made. When the amendment was made, the Department of Education, together with superinte ndents of the metropolitan schools, the civil defence authorities -- and by that I mean the senior civil defence people -- sat down with the people in the Department of Education to work out what those regulations should be and they agreed on those regulations.

I have, on a number of occasions, publicly expressed my regret that the regulations came on my desk, I think either the 20th or 21st of October, 1962, and I'm quite free to con- . fess that I can •t think of any more unfortunate time for them to have arrived than that parti­ cular moment, and I admitted quite frankly -- although I suppose that they might have come on the 17th of August and the Cuban crisis could have occurred on the 18th of August -- no one could guarantee that they would be at any particular point of time prior. The regulations were passed and you can make whatever you like about the dates.

Those are the facts. The regula­ tions were not ready before that. I am sorry that they came when they did because I think that it, perhaps to some it indicate d laxity; to others it indicate d perhaps some alarm; and it may be of in terest to the members of the committee to know that I've been equally criticized -­ criticized for being too late with the regulations and criticized for ever making them in the first place, because it was felt that this added to the conce rn and perhaps would cause alarm among people when they saw them or when they knew of them.

Now the regulations that apply to the schools are quite simple and they fall -- and it's important to remember this -- that they fall within the general rules established by the civil defence people for Manitoba who are responsible for the plann ing for the entire province. Simply stated it is this, that in the normal course, when we will obviously have some advance notice of any impending problem -- that is, we 're not en tirely without military inte lligence yet I don't think -- an order will be given by the Minister and, on the making of that order, it March 15th, 1963 Page 333

(Mr. McLean; cont'd) ••••• will be communicated in the normal way to all concerned by the most expeditious way; schools will be closed ; children will go home and be looked after in their homes and so on. The other situation, which of course could develop , is what is called technically a "take cover" . That is the case of a situation arising where there would be no time for anyone to give an order directing that schools be closed and when all of us, indeed school children or we here if we happen to be here, would have to take cover.

Provision is made for that and we did ask the schools -- by means of the regulations -- we asked school boards to consider what plans might be suitable for their children in that eventuality. One must admit that there isn't a bomb shelter in every school any more than there's a bomb shelter in every home or in every public building or in any other building. We simply asked that they make the best use of the facilities they had and make the best preparations that they could. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I didn't intend to speak this long, but I wanted to -- I ackriowledge with complete frankness that those regulations did appear in the Gazette on the 24th of October , 1962 , a fact that I regret very much. They were prepared, not the day before the 24th, but were in the course of preparation with the people that I have mentioned after this Legislature provided the necessary authority for it. However, it must always be remembered that schools, as well as every other civil function, in respect of civil defence, is under the general purview of those who are responsible for civil defence . MR. T. P.

HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Did I hear the Honourable Minister correctly when he said that the schools came under the general plans of civil defence ? MR . McLEAN : Yes. MR. IDLLHOUSE: Well I would like to ask him a few questions then. Who in the schools knew of these general plans ? Who was responsible? Who was informed of them, and who was responsible for the carrying out of these general plans? MR. EVANS: Within the groups- -the 45 I think it is, municipal groups, they are respons­ ible for the care of their own people within their own municipalites. This is quite an elaborate task in Winnipeg.

In most municipal groups in rural Manitoba it is not as elaborate a task, but with the training that a great many mayors and reeves have already had and with a civil defence, whatever his title is--an officer-- a civil defence officer who is a part-salaried man in each of these civil defence groupings of municipalities in the country, they are fully aware of their res­ ponsibilities to return the children to their homes , as well as to give the parents themselves guidance for their own protection and instruct their own people within the municipality.

And so they would be operating as separate units with pers onnel who have been instructed; with by-laws that have been passed to give powers to their emergency officers -- the emergency officers be­ ing appointed and acquainted with their duties; and these municipalities are quite capable of carrying out their responsibilities, including returning the school children to their homes. MR . STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr . Chairman, I would like to ask the Honourable Minister a couple of questions . To what extent are the school child,ren themselves prepared for the emergency evacuation.

It seems to me that the teachers have instructions and would know what to do in the case of an emergency but, according to my information, last October when the teachers instructed the children through their PA systems and gave them instructions what to do in case of an emergency, there was lots of confusion and crying, so it seems the children themselves were not prepared for this emergency. So I'd just like to know to what extent, or is there any guidance given to the children themselves ? And the second one , would it be more feasible to have the civil defence headquarters outside of the direct target area?

I understand right now it's in Winnipeg. Would 'it be more feasible to have it outside of the direct hit area? MR . EVA NS: I think those are two important matters , Mr. Chairman. I am not aware of any courses that have been given to school children to i.IJ3 truct them in matters concerning nuclear attacks. In some schools, I believe , some drills have been held but my impression is , without having any information on this subject, that this practice is not widespread and I think we would have to say that there has been no considerable amount of training given to the children in this regard.

It's a matter that should be considered. It would seem to me that the first responsibility, however, is to make sure that the teachers know that the plan is , on a warning, to have the children returned to their homes . CiVil defence headquarters is in Winnipeg, but the Metro Civil Defence organization has Page 334 March 15th, 1963

(Mr. Evans, cont'd) •••• its headquarters at what is called "the target area headquarters" at Portage la Prairie , and in the event of a warning they would immediately move their staff out to the target area headquarters and would begin to administe r the Winnipeg area from there . I've mentioned that there is this federal-provincial headquarters building at Shilo , where the provincial and federal and army officers would be together for co-ordination purposes -- this secret that the enemy might well clobber us over the head with -- but does that answer the question my honourable friend asked? MR .

DESJARDI NS: •• ••••••• the whole point. The Honourable Minister is responsible for this , stands up and tells us that he's not aware of what preparation, what kind of condition , what the people know about it. How can a Minister who is responsible for this stand up and tell us that he doesn't know what is going on ? This is the whole subject of discussion here. I think that if he's responsible for this , and he should be -- we're still mixed up; one of the Minister s tells us it's up to the Department of Education ; another one tells us that Metro's giving orders ; another one, it's the Ministe r himself.

I think that we have to have something better than this. I can't see that the person responsible can stand up and say, "Well , I'm not aware of what is going on ." It doesn•t·ma ke sense, and this is what my Leader was saying a while ago , that we should have this under the First Minister himself, and then if we can't do something right, then let's not spend any money at all. This is a waste of time and a waste of money. MR . JOHNSON: No , no, Mr . Chairman, I think •••••• May I suggest, Mr.

Ch airman, that it's just about time a little sedative was added to this debate, in the sense that I think we're all overlooking something. I think the Ministe r's dealing with and I'm not -- the Ministe r doesn't need my help in this debate, but there is one aspect of civil defence which I think is es­ sential in any thermo-nuclear catastrophe that we hope will never come.

We're preparing for something we hope will certainly never arrive, but a tremendous amount of work and planning has been done by the Civil Defence Organization, and probably one of the key factors is the Health Services -- the emergency medical and health services divi sion, where we have a full­ time incumbent in this position, who has been most active, and most evenings and most days developing this scheme.

Individual hospitals , for example, throughout the province have de­ veloped elaborate disaster plans , not only for this kind of disaster , but for disasters at all levels , and the medical profession, for example, is taking a most active role in this and has been in the fullest discussion with the emergency health officer, Mr . Chapman, and so on. Mr.

Hardiman, the Director of Emergency Civil Defence and health matters for the D.ominion of Canada was in the office passing through here just the other day, and in the Deputy Ministe r's office apprised me that in Manitoba we have reached a very high level of co-ordi nation and ready for action . There are millions of dollars in this province of emergency medical supplies. These are being distr ibuted. They can be distributed to up to 200 key points -- centres -­ throughout the Province of Manitoba in the event of the worst happening.

Individual physicians will know and guide themselves and be directed to one of these centres in the event of the alarm. being sounded, so that the deployment of the whole medical force of the province is well under way. I haven't got all the details, but I certainly could get them. They're available; and medical supplies are being distribut ed, and depending on target areas and so on, you have sub­ sidiary emergency units and the supplies and equipment now in hand, and the organization now in hand, to move into 200 in the event of attack.

In addition to this , the Hospital Commission are working closely with the civil defence emergency measures health officer at this moment to refine some difficulties with respect to the co-ordination of these plans , but hundreds of voluntary citizens have been involved -- the boards and the staffs and the physicians of all these hospitals in Manitoba are becoming involved in just what -- they know exactly what to do in this event, and I think that we all realize if something does go up that we hear the word that the alert is here; I think the natural thing is preservation of life and limb , and I know that the Honourable Member from St.

Boniface will take the same measures that I will , that we know -­ take all those measures that we hear about from time to time. But let's face it, Mr. Chair­ man, it is most difficult to get the great amount of interest shown in this Chamber this evening unless we're actually on the brink of a threat, it seems; and at these times we get the tremen­ dous interest of all the citizens of the province, who want to know these answers .

These an­ swers are available and I think it's very difficult for the Ministe r and for anybody trying to describe the tremendous amount of detail and planning and effort that has gone into our own March 15th, 1963 Page 335

(Mr. Johnson, cont'd) ••••• program here in Manitoba, but I would like to just say that which the Minister touched on, with respect to the emergency health services measures, these are very highly developed in the Province of Manitoba. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I think we should thank the Honourable Minister for his,information.

I think that we should be very thankful and congratulate the medical men in this province for their keen interest, and I know they are, but I'm still and they're still wor­ ried and concerned about the children in our schools and we still feel that the Minister in charge should be aware of what is going on. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I wish to thank, as well , the Minister of Health for his statement, l;!lld I'm pleased to know that there are scattered throughout the province emer­ gency medical suppl ies, because this is certainly one of the vital things that would be required in the event of an emergency, and it's not by keeping them here in Winnipeg that we would achieve any protection for our people ; it's by scattering them about. I want to come back though, as the Member for St. Boniface said, to the matter of schools.

Now the Minister of Education told us that in the last session reg ulations or changes in the Act were passed to permit the making of emergency regulations . The House rose last year, Mr. Chairman, on the 1st of May. It wasn't until the 24th of October that the regulations that my honourable friend speaks about were passed, and he says that this is a coincidence , that it happened two days after an emergency develo ped, and I'.m prepared to take his word for it. But I'm interested now in knowing the present situation.

Does my honourable friend know whether all the s_chools have set up an emergency plan ? .This afternoon the Minister who's in charge of this department, the Provincial Secretary, told us that the schools were presently writing their own emergency pla ns . The Minister of Education tonight tells us there ought to be two plans , which which I agree; one, what we might call "the real emergency", in which case I presume the instructions are that they are to stay \vhere they are and take cover in base� ments, if possible , or as deep down as they can get.

The second plan is where we have strate­ gic warning, where they are instructed to return to their homes and presumably be ready to evacuate with their parents . Now , has the government ascertained that all the schools presently have established these plans ? MR . EVANS: At the moment, or at the time these notes were completed for my estimate book, there were 260 written plans that had been submitted to the ciVil defence office.

During the coming year schools are to hold three drills per year and the parents are to be adVised, in writing, regarding the school plan where their children are, so the parents will know what the plans are. The schools will have three drills per year in the procedures that are set up under that written plan. I think the remarks of the Minister of Heal th has enabled me to draw another point which perhaps I didn't make clear , and that is that ciVil defence is not carried on by the CiVil Defence Organization.

The civil defence in any kind of an emergency is carried on by the entire forces of the government, and each of the departments , in addition to carrying out their regular responsibilities day by day in normal times, have a specially written plan for emergen­ cies and know what action they will take, with what personnel , and from wh"at locatio ns , and they have their responsibilities. Each department has its responsibilities assigned to it; it knows and has a written plan as to how they �ill be carried out, ·and has exercised those res­ ponsibilities.

Now the Minister of Health has outlined the preparations in that department iil co-operation with the medical field. - I mi ght say that exactly the same situation with a full-time person to organize it also exists in the welfare field, where there will be the mobilization of all the private organizations such as Red Cross and the other welfare organizations through that department.

I've already mentioned that the Departments of Mines and Natural Resources and Public Works, having a good deal of heavy earth-moVing and other equipment, and transportation, and people accustomed to that kind of work, have organized and exercised their function of bringing equipment together and putting it at the service of the army after a strike occurs or in backing up the other govern­ ment functions , so it can be said that the ciVil serVice responsibility -- the civil defence res­ ponsibilities -- are not, by any means , carried out by the Civil Service Organizations -- I keep using that word "Civil Service", I really meant to say CiVil Defence -- by the CiVil De­ fence Organization for which I am directly responsible .

The Civil Defence Organization has a responsibility, first of all, of co-ordinating the work and seeing that plans are brought into Page 336 March 15th, 1963

(Mr. Evans , cont'd) •• ••• being and some responsibility in an emergency for communications , but that is a comparatively minor responsibility. The Civil Defence Organization is the entire government with all its forces, regrouped, carrying out their emergency functions in co-opera­ tion with other authorities, such as the federal and 'the municipal governments. MR. HILLHOUSE : Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Honourable Minister a question ? A short time ago you mentioned the fact that the council of a municipality was responsible for carrying into effect the plans in that particular municipality. Is that right?

MR . EV ANS: I wonder if I could just make an amendment to that. Municipalities in the province , all of them, have been grouped into 45 civil defence areas , and they -- I think each of the municipalities in a given area -- have passed a common by-law and have appointed an officer for emergency things such as fire-,fighting, and a welfare officer, and have on their staff now someone working for this group of municipalities, a civil defence official to carry forward this work and organize it. MR. IDLLHOUSE : The by-laws have to be approved by the Minister of Municipal Affairs , is that right? MR.

EVANS: They are being sent in to be approved. I think we have found in a number of cases where they have not followed the channels , but that is the plan •••••• MR. HILLHOUSE: Well do you know as a matter of fact whether they have been sent in or not? MR . EVANS: I think there's been some .short fall in that direction and we're trying to •• MR. HILLHOUSE : Because according to the Civil Defence Act , they don't become law­ ful or legal until they are approved by the Minister, and that's the point that 1 want to make. How many municipalities had their by-laws approved by the Minister under the Civil Defence Act?

MR. EV ANS: I think my honourable friend has pointed out a situation that we are over­ taking rapidly. MR. MOLGAT : Mr. Chairman, before I go on to some other questions that I have on the subject, I just want to be sure here on the matter of organization. Is the provincial civil defence co-ordinator responsible directly to my honourable friend? MR . EVANS: Yes. MR . MOLGAT: Now is this co-ordinator responsible then for all of .the people within the province -- that is , the municipalities, Metro, schools -- do they all come under his res'­ ponsibility?

Is he not there to co-ordinate the activities of all these people? MR . EV ANS: In normal times his responsibilities are; one, to bring into being the plan. That's one thing. The second is to deal with or to be in liaison with the municipalities; group them into these areas; and carry out instruction, both to the municipalities ;md their people; and to provide education for the people of the province, both municipal officials and othe;rs .

I think that is the extent -- and also, to provide and maintain the communications system which .; jo ins the civil defence headquarters in the Norquay Building in Winnipeg with the three zone headquarters and links in also with the government air service and other communications which we already have. MR . MOLGAT : But then it comes under his responsibility to see to it surely that all the people down below him have actually acted upon the plan; that they have plans set up.

It's his responsibility surely for example, to see to it that Metro have a plan and are prepared to operate and that this plan is functioning, is that not correct? MR . EV ANS: It's the responsibility of any municipal council or Metro council or the council of any of the municipal groups of which I have been speaking, to bring a plan into being; to staff it; to exercise it; to train themselves to carry out their responsibilities in an emer­ gency. The civil defence co-ordinator is not responsible for those activities within the muni­ cipalities.

He is there to encourage them to carry out -- to undertake these responsibilities and to help them carry it out. MR. MOLGAT : Let's assume that he doesn't do it. Does the provincial co-ordinator not have the responsibility to get them to do it ? MR . EVANS: ••••• •••••• •••• been very succe ssful. MR . MOLGAT : Well then it comes back to the point that I was interested in, that in the final analysis the responsibility comes back to the civil defence co-ordinator of the province, March 15th, 1963 Page 337

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) ••••• and eventually back to the Minister. I'll admit it's not up to him to go out and operate each one of them, but to see to it that they have a plan. Well then, I want to come back to some comments I made in my opening statement, Mr. Chairman, insofar as information out to the public. In the provincial phone book, which is put out by the govern­ ment through its crown corporation, the Manitoba Telephone System, surely we would be able to put in much more information than there is now.

I don •t think that we could put in all of the material that the Minister has supplied me with tonight, but I would think that the basic one of all this is the "Eleven Steps to Survival". This is the elementary point that everyone should be familiar with, and I would recommend to the Minister, therefore, that this part at least, if it can be suxn:tnarized, be put into the provincial phone book.

At present, the provincial phone book by my count has some eleven pages of general information and advertising of the telephone system, and I think we could well afford to have another eleven pages of information in this regard. When I was speaking about the City of Winnipeg phone book the Minister said to me then that this was the responsibility of Metro. Well it seems to me that here, through the civil defence co-ordinator, that the government should take a step itself and proceed to give the same information in the city phone book.

These books are books that are always available in the home; the people know exactly where they are; they hang on to them; they can refer to them. Now I want to go on to another proposal that I made to the Minister , and that was with regard to marking the evacuation routes out of Winnipeg. Is he prepared to take any action in this regard and on this matter of phone books? MR.

EVANS: I would be glad to consider my honourable friend's remarks concerning the telephone books, and if that appears the best means of getting the information into the public's hands, then I would be very glad to recommend to those responsible in each sphere that they do it.

I think that Metro being responsible in its sphere, that is the Greater Win­ nipeg area, that we will draw that to their attention and they will consider it and, if it is as good an idea as my friend indicates, and I don't mean to be -- I .didn •t mean to put it that way -- I really mean that it will be consi�red -- (Interjection) -- Well, I'm very much tempted to, but I think we won't. Now, with respect to the escape routes.

I think Winnipeg is in a position where it may not be necessary to mark the escape routes from Winnipeg, that is mark the streets , because there are more natural outlets to Winnipeg, being a flat prairie land, than in a great many cities. It might indeed be a complex question, for example, in Vancouver or Montreal, where escape from the area is limited by a certain number of bridges , but so far our techni­ cal people advise us that it is not necessary to mark the streets as esca pe routes .

Now as evacuation begins to take place from the Winnipeg area or from any other place , the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have their plans for controlling traffic. The y use certain routes for ingress and egress. They'll have to have some routes open for coming into Winnipeg for certain forces that they have and for certain military purposes, and so they will control the traffic on the roads, but the planning and execution of that is the responsibility of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. • • • • • • • • Continued on next page Page 338 March 15th, 1963

MR. MOLGAT: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman, but we put in the phone book here what the evacuation routes are. If we intend people to use them then I suggest we should make them, because thi s is what will make the difference insofar as the control of traffic. If there was to be an evacuation of the City of Winnipeg--let•s assume it was on a winter day--it would be a very difficult proposition. If you can have control of the traffic you can make it through, · but if it is heading off in all directions then there •s not enough police force· to be able to control it in any way.

So I would recommend--as I said to my honourable friend, the City of Minneapolis, which is pretty well in the same type of terrain as we are, does follow this practice •. The next point, Mr. Chairman, which I would like to re-emphasize is that if the civil defence co-or dina·:­ tor for the province is in the final analysis responsible for the co-ordination of the plans through­ out the province, I would again recommend that he be responsible directly to the First Minister.

I don •t want to take work away .from my honourable friend, but I think in the fin!ll analysis the First Mini ster is the man who is in a position to make the decision and.that this co-ordination will be difficult enough that we will not have time for consultation if decisions should be made. I would like to know now the policy of the government insofar as shelters . Last year we had a discussion on this. My honourable friend the First Minister has one, and I believe there is one other.

At that time I asked whether the policy of the government was to encourage people to build shelters or whether it was not, and I could find no decision. Could the govern­ ment advise me now what is the policy? :MR . EVANS: At the outset of my remarks iny honourable member may remember that I said I considered the shelter policy, among other things, to be a federal responsibility and I have no plans either to provide shelters or to put on a publicity campaign of any kind to per­ suade the people to build them for themselves. :MR . J. M.

FROESE (Rhineland): Before we leave this matter of alerting schools, I feel that if the telephone is going to be used niore or less exclusively, that certainly there •s a large number of schools in the province that do not have telepho nes, and then there 's a good number more that are on ·party lines, and l'm sure that the moment such a.t hing happens that your cen- · trals would be jammed and you wouldn't get your mes sage across to these schools . Here is an area that I think will have to be improved on if you want to use this effectively.

Another thing, if we really believe that this matter is of such urgence and that this can come on us, I think the matter of stock-piling goods should be considered, because if such a thing should come about and our land would be destroyed, or at least so it wouldn.•t be fertile and we couldn't grow crops, well certainly we would need foodstuffs, and that this should be considered.

Then a further question that I would like to direct to the Minister is this matter about--is there some liaison between this government and the government of North Dakota, be­ cause there's a project going up at Grand Forks, I understand0 and I'm just wondering what . effect that will have to our program . :MR .

EVANS: I think in answer to my honourable friend's first question, where there .. is no telephone or where a party line might be jammed; certainly the school would have to pro­ vide itself with some other means of receiving a warning and it might be hoped that, in a time of rising international tension, that they might provide themselves with at least a radio and that will be an alternative means.

Then within that municipal grouping it would be up to those responsible for the civil defence functions to know that the telephone might not be reliable and have some other means of conveying the warning to the schools . That becomes a local res­ ponsibility. With regard to the stock-piling of supplies, it is a federal responsibility and they have an organiz ation known as the emergency supplies organizatio n-- I've forgotten the exact title-­ which is working on a plan and actually taking stock of the supplies of food and other ess ential supplies that are within the province.

They know where they are; in what warehouse s; and the quantities that are available . In the event of an actual emergency, they would come under their control. They would come under federal control and a good part of the staff in that connection is provided by the provincial governments and are conducting their exercis es with them--actu­ ally from my own department, the Department of Industry and Commerce. Liaison with the American authorities is really through the co-operation that the Canadian and American governments have at NORAD, the North American Air Defence Organization in Colorado.

While l'm not aware of the details nor is it the right thing to describe them, it can March 15th , 1963 Page 339

(Mr. Evans cont 1d) .•••••• be sa id that there is the closest commu nication between the Amer­ ican defence headquarters and the Canadian, and that that information is brought very rapidly to Manitoba in Army hands and is available to us here. I think it can be assumed that there is close assoc iation between the civil defence organizations of the United States and Canada.

I think in some sm all ways this co-opera tion has worked out very well because I believe that, in certain cases of fires and some other disast ers, actually civil defence organizations have crossed the borders perhaps without bothering to check in at the check point. They've crossed the border to help ea ch other in the cases of fires and other things, and I think in that way have worked up a very good spirit of co-operation and mutual appreciation in that regard. I think those were the �hree questions my honourable friend had. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 24 -- passed. MR.

JOHNSTON: Mr, Chairman, may I be recognized? Still speaking on civil defence, I'd like to make a suggestion, Since I ma de ·critici sms, I feel I should suggest som ething that could be helpful, Returning to the telephone book again, the rural one, on this big ad, it is all based on an appeal to people to write in for informa tion and it says , in effect, "Are you pre­ pared? .. If you want to, here is the place to write and here is the inform ation that we will give you, 11 I am wondering if the minister would be prepared to try and get this survival kit into every home, whether by mail or by delivery?

I don't know just how you'd go about it, but the point I'm getting at is this, that if 10 or 20 or 30 percent of our people take it upon themselves, as good citizens and people who think ahead, to write in and get this informa tion, and to the best of their ability carry it out, if anything should happen and the emerg ency does come and 70 per­ cent of the population haven't done this, then it destroys or lessens the good effect of the 30 percent of the people who have done something to help them selves, For insta nce, their neigh­ bours will be trying to get access to their food or water or shelters or cars or what have you, whate ver prepa rations these people have made, so I am suggesting that this kit is part of the Manitoba government's responsibility, which is to give information, If a real effort was ma de to put this kit into every home, as well as carrying out the suggestions for more specific in- formation to be contained in the phone books . , , , • · MR .

EVANS: I think it's a very worthwhile suggestion to be considered.

I think we would have to we igh the cost of doing it in the telephone book, It's not techncially correc t to say that that telephone book is published by the Telephone System, if I am right, It always used to be published by a concessi onaire who sold the advertising and published the book, and this may still be the situation ; but in any event I feel quite sure that the civil defence, or whoever it mi ght be, would be called on to pay the advertising costs of putting it in the telephone book, If that turns out to be the most effective means at the cost then certainly it will be done that way, How­ ever, these pamphlets are quite bulky and have a good many illustratio ns, and they are pro­ vided to us , I think I'm correct in saying, free of charge by the federal government, and the House will be glad to know, I'm sure, that many tens of thousands of those booklets, perhaps hundreds of thousands , have been distributed throughout Manitoba, They have achieved some circulation throughout the province, We won•t be sa tisfied until everyone has one but it becomes a matter of technique , If you simply distribute som ething unasked for and unexpected I think it's probably true to say that it's generally ignored and thrown away , If, however, someo ne re­ quests it, even though it be free, they value it that much and keep it and read it and ma ke use of it, So I'm very glad to have these suggestions .

They will be conside red. · MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, last year, in addition to my question about the policy on shelters I'd asked what the policy was on sirens, and at that time I didn 1t get an answer, Today the minister indicate d that there was to be an expansion of the siren system and also that they were considering other types of warning , Is it correct that there are no sirens at the moment at the University of Manitoba on the Fort Garry site? · MR . EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I believe there are not, Page 340 March 15th, 1963.

MR . MOLGA T: Mr. Chairman, I would strongly recom mend that this be one of the first places where they should be installed. There is a very la rge population there during the day, and I am surprised that there are none now. Another point I want to check with the minister is the policy of the government with regards to civil servants. The minister indicated that all of the government services would participate in civil defence activities and I realize that this is necessary.

Now, many of the people who are members of the civil service are also mem­ bers of other organizations ; for example, municipal governments in the case of those who are on councils, or reeves or mayors, but much more im portant still, those who are members of militia units here in the City of Winnipeg who have a responsibility within their militia unit as well. This is particularly true of some of the Crown corporations, and there I would cite in particular the Manitoba Telephone System who have a large number of their people on the militia unit staff. Now what is the policy ?

Are these people to be responsible to their militia unit or responsible to the provincial government? Are they available to their militia unit in case of eme rgency or not? MR. EVANS: I'm really -- I see the situation that is raised here and I'm not able to answer that question at the moment because it hasn't come to my attention. I'm quite sure the situation has been contemplated and I' m not able to answer the questio11 which claim would have priority.

Certainly it has been the case that when regiments are mobilized that they do seem to supersede what's called "ci vilian occupation" but we'll have to consider whether this thing has been contemplated and as soon as I can get somEd nformation for my honourable friend I'll be glad to let hi.m know about it. MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr. Chairman, before we leave this, there's one remark that the minister made that bothers me.

I didn't intend to get into the discussion but a certain reference -- and I can't believe that the honourable minister really meant it; it might have slipped inadvertently or in some manner -- but that simple comparison when he stated that he had no separate rules or regulations or instructions as regards schools or service garages, and that statement bothers me, because if that is the case I don't think it is quite . right. It's just unbelievable that schools did not get adequate instructions just what definite steps should be taken fn case of a disaster. I can't see the comparison here.

You've got ser­ vice garages where adults are working, and they're responsible for their own behaviour and defence , but on the other hand, speaking as a former teacher now, on the other hand we've got a school, a building in which we house a number of children, quite a number of children, which affects the whole area, the whole district, and I really and truly believe that there should be a distinction made there. They should have had special instructions.

I know that, as far as the minister answered the question about the definite instructions as far as drills in case of dis­ aster, that those drills were not a statutory requirement in every school. I think they definite­ ly should be, because in case of a disaster or_ of a warning, it is very easy to stampede the children, very easy to stampede them, even if the teacher tries to assure them that there is no danger. But it's the first time . Little children, especially in an elementary school, get con­ fused, and there could be disaster and confusion just as happened in some areas and some schools before.

I know on the 22nd of October I had three telephone calls from the different school teachers asking me , "What are we supposed to do? In case there is an attack what are we going to do ?" I asked them, "You should have some instructions." "Oh, we have some general sort of information. But you should know the specific instructions; exactly wh11t we should do. " Well, I was at a loss what to answer them, and evidently the teachers didn't know.

So, to me it seems just unbelievable that the schools didn't get any special and concise , definite instructions what to do, and worst of all that drills, the disaster drills, whatever you wish to call them, were not being conducted in the schools. I think they .should have been. I can't imagine that, and I don't think it's a very good comparison .:--service garages and schools. I'm not attacking the minister with venom. I'm just saying this because it's something that bothered me and I felt that this statement shouldn't have gone unchallenged. I hope that the minister didn't mean what I think he does. MR .

EVANS: It's not only unbelievable, Mr. Chairman, but it's untrue. In the first place I didn't say it, and in the second place it's been revealed tonight that there is a regula­ tion with every school -- a plan -- that these plans are being written and over 260 have arrived and are being examined and no doubt approved; that it is now a regulation that the schools have March 15th, 1963 Page 341

(Mr. Evans , cont'd) •..... three drills a year. (Interjec tion). I wonder if my honourable friend knows that. My honourable friend now knows that these plans are coming into effect and the drills will be held. MR. TANCHAK: ..•• •• MR . EVANS: Yes, this may well be true but this is the situation now. HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Welfare) (The Pas): Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I may just make a remark. You'd. think that civil defence just originated with this government.

I don't know when civil defence came into effect but I know that I was one of the first ministers of civil defence for a very short period of time, and I know that there .had been many years before that wheq the former government had ample opportunity to have brqught in plans for the school children of the province and for all the rest of the province, and I do know that there was tremendous confusion throughout the province at the time when we took over , and I do know this, that there has been very substantial progress made during the .time that the present minister has been heading this department.

I know that there have been tremendous strides made, for instance , in the field of health, and I know that with respect to fire protection and the kinds of facilities that are available to combat conflagrations, both outside of the Greater Winnipeg area and inside, have been tremendous.

We have schools going on almost each week of the year through the fire commissi oner's office , instructing civil defence groups through- out the whole of the Province of Manitoba, and these are plans that have all come in with the present minister of civil defence, because they were ei ther non-existent before or they were practically non-existent. I'd like to commend the very worthwhile, efforts of the present min­ ister, because I think he's been doing a tremendous job in civil defence and I would certainly like to see it left with him . The plans are progressing.

I think we've made very satisfactory progress in recent years, and I'm quite surprised that the people opposite -- the present Lead­ er of the Opposition didn't cause his government at that time to take some of the concrete steps that the present minister here has been taking during the period of time in which he has been the minister. I never heard him get up and say that-- or have never read about his great concern for civil defence prior .... . MR. MOLGAT: ..... . . � .. MR.

CARROLL: Yes, I called the papers at that time, and I find that your interest has materialized very rece ntly in this business of civil defence and I'd like � pay tribute to the present minister for the efforts that he's made in this particular field. MR. TANCHAK: I'm not going to make a speech. I'll just make a comment. We�re talk­ ing about the present, and if the Honourable Minister's papa didn'.t spank him five years ago it isn't my fault, or our fault. MR . MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I really thought that we were going to get through these estimates very shortly until the contribution of the Honourable Minister from The Pas. It's too. bad that he hasn't got over 1958 yet and got up to the present. The fact still remains.

My hon­ ourable friend can like it or not like it, but there was an emergency last October and there were no steps .taken at that time by this government, in particular in the field of schools, My honour­ able friends can say all that they like, but the facts are that at that time the schools of this pro­ vince had no plans and ·my honourable friend the Minister of Education did not know whether they did or didn't, and it was only two days after that em ergency that the regulations were issued.

Now my honourable friend can talk all he wants about the past -- I'm interested in the situation today; and that's the job that this legislature has to do at this time, and my concern in this matter is seeing to it . • . . • • . My honourable· friend, we're dealing with the present situation. The situation right now is that we need co-ordination in these factors, in these fields, and I've recom mended a number of steps tonight that will assist in that co-ordination and provide better civil defence for the Province of Manitoba.

However, in spite of the very tempting possibilities for a speech that my honourable friend the Minister of what -- right now I forget -- the Minister from The Pas , has given me , I would like to close under one simple question and that's of my honourable friend, the First Minister, because having recomm ended that he take over directly this responsibility, I'm concerned about his welfare. I would like to know whether he has com­ pleted his own fall-out shelter yet. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 25 .•..•. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to clean up what I believe is the one remaining Page 342 March 15th, 1963

(Mr. Evans cont'd) .. •••. question. I think there are no other questions open, except that in the case of the people occupying key posts in civil defence organizations by agreement with the militia, they are released from military duty on a call up. MR. MOLGAT: One moment, Mr. Chairman, people in militia, then, are responsible directly to the province and are not available to their militia unit if they're civil servants ? MR. EVANS: I said in key positions and each position is considered separately and I think there are a relatively few number of them.

I think some of them in the telephone system are essential for communications and one or two other cases that I know individually are con ­ sidered, each one on its merits, and the arrangement is made to retain them in the civil or­ ganization. MR: MOLGAT: . . . • each of these individuals been so advised personally? MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 25, item 11 passed; that completes the ..... MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I was just wondering if the minister will tell me -- if you don't mind, the Chairman called 25 -- I was wondering if we ·could have a brief explanation.

This appears to me to be a new item in the estimates so I would request just a brief, and I emphasize brief, explanation· as to what this entails. MR. EVANS: I think this really provides the funds for responsibilities that. have .been al­ ready announced in connection with the Keewatin-Burrows Housing Development and the Salter­ Jarvis Redevelopment Project. Under the Burrows-Keewatin Public Housing Project, it's anticipated that 165 housing units will be comple-ted and occupied during 1963-64.

Operating subsidies -- that is, the difference between the cost of providing the housing units and the rent charged to the occupants -- are expected to amount to a maximum of $480 .0 0 per unit. Under agreements between the Government of Canada, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the City of Winnipeg and the Province, the cost of paying these operating subsidies is to be shared between the !;Q,_ree governments, 75 percent federal, 12 1/2 percent provincial, and 12 1/2 municipal.

The terms of the agreements require the province to pay both the provincial and the municipal share, and then in turn recover the municipal portion from the City of Winni­ peg. On full occupancy of the project, total cost of the rent subsidies, that is 165 units at $480, is estimated at a maximum of $80, 000 and the provincial and municipal share amount to a maximum of $10, 000 each or $20, 000 for both. MR. CHAffiMAN: •.•••••• • MR. ROBIJN: Mr.

Chairman, the time is getting on and we've made excellent progress this evening -- not very constructive in some respects, but excellent in others -- and I'm ready to move that the committee rise. I would propose, however, that we do have second reading of the two short bills which are on the Order Paper, so that they may be advanced a stage, and then we can adjourn, so I move Mr. Chairman that the committee rise. MR. CHAffiMAN: Call in the Speaker. Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has a­ dopted certain resolutions, directed me to report the same, and asks leave to sit again. MR.

MARTIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Springfield, that the report of the committee be received. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN: I suggest that we proceed with the second reading of the two bills on the Order Paper. HON. ROBERT SMELLIE (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Birtle Russell) presented Bill No. 6,

an Act to amend The Municipal Board Act, for second reading. MR. SMELLIE: Madam Speaker, in

Section 58 of the Municipal Board Act there is a pro­ vision which reads, "Subject to

section 1045 of the Municipal Act, an appeal lies from any final order or decision of the board to the Court of Appeal, etcetera. "

Section 1045 of the Municipal Act deals with an appeal by way of stated case. Under the provisions of the Municipal Act the Municipal Board can hear appeals from a Court of Revision, but they cannot hear appeals on any question that involves the jurisdiction of the board or any point of law. Under the present system if you have an appeal of such nature from a court of revision, you must take it to the Municipal Board under the Act, but the Municipal Board will not hear the appeal. They will then state a case to the Court of Queen's Bench and the case is heard in that manner.

It is proposed to amend the Municipal Act so that an appellant from a court of revision on any ques­ tion involving the jurisdiction of the Municipal Board, or on any point of law concerning his March 15th, 1963 Page 343 t

(Mr. Smellie cont'd) .• •••. assessment, will take the appeal directly to the Court of Queen's Bench. This first amendment just provides that instead of reading subject to this particular

section as it was in the past, it will now read "subject to

part 12 of the Municipal Act. " In

part 12 you will find the present

section 1045 , so that there is no substantive change. The second

section in this bill deals with the question of plans of the present act. There is some doubt as to whether or not the Municipal Board have the right to cancel a parcel plan. This is a plan which is filed in the Land Title's Office for the purpose of describing a particular parcel of land. The Boards do have the authority to cancel plans of subdivision, but they feel at the present time there is no authority to cancel a parcel plan and this amendment is to correct that omi ssion. MR . HILLHOUSE: •..•.• minister correctly then in respect of the appeals to the Court of Appeal?

Is that going to do away with the stated case to the Court of Queen's Bench entirely? And the second one is this, that in respect to these plans, are you referring to these plans thata·re deposited in the Land Titles Office more for the purpose of obviating the necessity of very cum­ bersome legal descriptions -- sometimes done where so many parcels of land are transferred out of a title and the remaining land is a very involved description, and the individual in ques­ tion files a plan of subdivision and that covers the balance of the land.

That's what you're re­ ferring to now -- that they're going to have the right to cancel these? MR. SMELLIE: Madam Speaker, there's no attempt to change the appeal to the Court of I Appeal from cer tain decisions of the Municipal Board. This is just changing the appeal on a point of substantive law. Ins tead of going to the Municipal Board first and then having your stated case to the Court of Queen's Bench, the appellant will make his stated case directly to the Court of Queen's Bench.

The plans referred to here are these descriptive plans, mostly referred to in the Land Titles Office as parcel plans, and where a municipality may wish to file a plan of subdivision they may have to cancel the parcel plan first, and the Municipal Board have no authority under the act as it presently stands to cancel a parcel plan. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SME LLIE presented Bill No. 9,

an Act to amend The Municipal Boundaries Act, for second reading. MR . ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce, that the House do now adjourn. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House adjourned until 2:3 0 Monday afternoon. Page 344 March 15th, 1963