Manitoba Hansard — 26 September 1989 (Sitting 37, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-37

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, September 26, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYE RS ROUTI NE PROC EEDING S PRESENTING REP ORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTE ES Mr. William Chornopyski (Chairman of Committees): Mr. Speaker , the Commi ttee of Supply has ado pted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same, and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Mem ber for St. Ja mes (Mr. Edwards), that the report of the committee be received. - MOTION presented and carried. TABLIN G OF REP ORTS Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of En ergy and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the Seventh Annual Report of the Manitoba Energy Authority for the year ended March 31, 19 89. Mr. Speaker: No tices of Motion-t he Honourable Minister of Finance. Hon. Clayton Man ness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, my apology. I would like to table an Annual Report- Mr. Speaker: Under Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports? Mr. Manne ss: -y es, the Annual Report of the Department of Finance. INTRODUC TION OF GUESTS - Mr.

Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct Honourable Mem bers' attention to the galle ry where we have from the Valley Gardens Junior High School, thirty-eight Grades 7, 8 and 9 students under the direction of Mr. Doug Nowicki. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Mem ber for Concordia (Mr. Doer). On behalf of all Honou rable Mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon. * (1 335) ORAL QU ESTION PERIOD PCB Safety and Storage Theft Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cum mings). 1292 Mr.

Speaker, it concerns the theft of five 205- litre drums containing PCBs. On Friday in this House the Minister said that all PCB storage sites complied with regulations and requirements, and that being the case, can he explain to the House how someone or some people got in, stole five of them and moved them? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Well, Mr. Speaker, obviously the people who chose to remove these light ballasts from the storage that they were in had to break into the building to do so.

As a result they are, if they can be identified , subject to some prosecution under Dangerous Go ods and Transportation and Handling. They broke into a building which was secured. Ob viously the question that needs to be asked here is whether or not there has been an aura created around PCBs, which in this case were contained in light ballasts, that makes people, the public, feel they have to do this sort of thing. What it does is endanger the methods that we have put in place to consolidate and identify all articles that contain PCBs so they can eventually be taken for destruction. Site Security Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): But, for two Sessi ons we have asked the Department of Environment to put into place appropriate regulations gu arante eing the adeq uate pro tection. We have individuals taking the law into their own hands simply because they believe that this Government's attitude to PCBs is Prog ressive Conservative blarney. Now, will this Government respond and ensure that there is adeq uate protected storage facilities for PCBs in this province? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environmen t): Mr. Speaker, we are talking about light ballasts that were taken out of schools.

The Transcona-Springfield School Division took the appropriate action. They took out of service these light ballasts. They put them into storage that was secure. They put them into storage that was on a separate location. Now what we have is a situation where there has been an aura of distrust that is created around the storage of that material. We have indicated previously in response to the Workplace, Safety and Health Com mittee which Mr. Fox- Decent chaired , sent a letter to us earlier this summer indicating that there were certain sites that they felt were unsuitable.

These PCBs were to be removed in the very near future through the auspices of the Hazardous Waste Management Corporation and put into further secure storage. That is part of the ongoing process of removing light ballasts and any other materials that contain PCBs from service, from storage sites, and consolidate it further.

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 Regulation Amendments Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (leader of the Opposition): I have a supplementary question to the Minister. The aura of distrust ha s been created by that Government that cannot respond to crisis, whether it is foster parents, whether it is day care, or whether it is PCBs. Will the Minister tell this House today if he is prepared to introduce tougher regulations so that individuals do not feel compelled to take the law into their own hands? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): The regula tions regarding the storage of this material become progressively more restrictive in accordance with the concentration and volume of material that is being stored. There needs to be some smaller sites. Organizations, companies that wish to store the material themselves or wish to store it while it is awaiting destruction or awaiting consolidation into other more secure locations, they need an opportunity to store that. We cannot be sending a truck to a school every time they have a handful of ballasts that need to be taken to another location.

This material was very quickly identified where it came from because the drums were iden tified. * (13 40) We were fortunate inasm uch as the person who did this did not disturb the contents of the drum insofar as we can tell, but it drives home the importance of making sure that we have correct information out in the public so they understand this material is being consolidated so it can be destructed . Prairie Militia Headquarters Relocation Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): I have a new question to the First Minister. The Wilson budget of April, 19 89, announced major base closures in Manitoba.

If the federal Government cannot be persuaded from this course of action, CFB Portage will be eliminated and the Princess Patricias will be transferred from Winnipeg to Edmonton. This will create a major gap historically and in real terms in Manitoba's proud history as a defence center in Canada. Today we had it confirmed that further cuts are being made. The prairie militia area headquarters is moving from Winnipeg to Edmonton, slated for 1992. Can this First Minister (Mr. Filmon) tell this House when he learned of this further erosion of our military presence? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I find it very interesting that the Leader of the Opp osition (Mrs. Carstairs) changes her point of view virtually every day. Last week, she was criticizing me for having met with the Prime Minister and raised as a major issue the need to ensure that in response to the cuts that were made in the military in Manitoba, that we sought other economic initiatives, economic investment, job creation activities in this Province, specifically to backfill for those initiatives that were undertaken in the budg et.

I said to her that very shortly after we had the announcement of the rotary combine manufacturing facility and a couple of hundred jobs in Portage la Prairie, there were several other initiatives that were under way as a result of the fed eral Government going to take a look at this and to ensure that in response to those kinds of activities, Manitoba would get job creation investment in this province. She did not want us to do that. She was opposed to my discussing that with the Prime Minister, wanted me to discuss other issues, Mr. Speaker , and now she is on to this issue again.

She has to de cide which side of the bench she is on. Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. The Honourable Leader of the Op position. Mrs. Carstairs: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is another example of the Premier not knowing about the� issues, so it is impo ssible for him to lay them before � the Prime Minister of the country. Building Occupants Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): The supplementary question to the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon), in that the building occupied by prairie militia has been declared obsolete and no further repairs will be do ne to it, what other information does he have that he can share with this House about other units prese ntly stationed in that building? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , I will take that question as notice, and I will bring back complete information for the Leader of the Opp osition (Mrs. Carstairs). Military Personnel Transfers Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): 4 The assault on our centre of defence continues by the cousins of this Go ver nment in Ottawa.

Can this Government tell us what contacts they have had, if any, with the federal Minister of Defence, indicating just how many military personnel are to be cut from this province in the next five years? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I know that the Leader of the Oppo sition (Mrs. Carstairs) does not have a great recollection of the history of the reductions in defence that were made in this province under the Liberal Government led by her idol , Pierre Elliott Trudeau.

When Pierre Elliott Trude au was the Prime Minister of this country, he closed the defence base at Rivers, he closed the defence base at Gimli, and he closed the overhaul and maintenance base of Air Canada here, getting rid of thousands and thousands of jobs, Mr. Speaker, under the Liberal Government. * (13 45) 1293

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 I know she does not remem ber that because she was not in this province, but I say to her that the worst de vastation to this provi nce, in terms of defence spending, was made by the Liberal Government of Pierre Trudeau, and there will never be any Government that will equal those moves in terms of the defence establishment in Manitoba. Day Care Workers Salaries Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. The Honourable Mem ber for St. Joh ns. Ms. Judy Wasylycia- leis (St. Johns): Today, Mr.

Speaker, hundreds of children, child care professionals and parents visited the Minister of Family Services' (Mrs. Oleson) office to give her peanuts, to drive home the point to this Minister and the Government that the child care workers earning on average $1 5,6 00 a year make peanuts. � By the way, some of those children wanted to make sure that the Minister and the Premier received their peanuts, and so I would like the Pages, if they could come up and actually- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please; order, please. Ms. Wasylycia-leis: If I could have a- ***** Mr.

Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Beauchesne 5-333 is very exp licit about ex hibits in the Cham ber. The Honourable Mem ber for Thompson, on a point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I have a point of order. I do believe we have a precedent. A number of years ago, Wally McKenzie, a former Me mb er of the � Leg islature, tabled a dead pigeon in this House and , had it personally del ivered to the Minister at that point in time. I do believe that this falls in the same spirit.

I am not referring either to the strawberries, trees, and other shrubs and paraphernalia that have been placed in the House on other occasions. I do believe the intent of the Mem ber was quite honest when he had this del ivered, which was a request made by the delega tion today. As I said, this is the dead pigeon precedent. Mr. Speake r: Order , ple ase ; order , please. The Honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I point out that in my view it is inappropriate for the Honourable Memb er for Thom pson (Mr.

Ashton) to comment or refiect on your previous comments respecting the behaviour of the Honourable Mem ber for St. Johns (Ms . Wasylycia-l.eis). Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. As far as I am concerned, a bad precedent does not constitute a function of this 1294 House. Therefore, I have ruled that is an exhibit. They are out of order. ***** Mr. Speaker: Will the Honourable Member for St. Johns kindly put her question now, please? Ms. Wasylycia-leis: Consideri ng, Mr.

Speaker , that the Minister remained holed up in her office and refused to meet with all but a few of those children, which I must say struck most of those children as quite impolite, I had hoped the Minister would accept those peanuts, and maybe she will after outside the House. I would like to ask the Minister to tell this House how her Government can justify giving its political aids like Michael Bessey pay increases of $1 3,447 over the last two weeks and tell child care professionals there is nothing for them? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to point out to the Memb er who has raised the point that I spoke to only a few children. I was having a mee ting with some people who had come from considerable distance to meet with me this morning, had an appointment several weeks ago, and I could not leave that mee ting. When I was able to leave it I spoke to the children that were there. I am always happy to see children. * (1 350) Day Care Workers Salaries Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for St. Johns, with a supplementary question. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): It is clear, Mr.

Speaker, that this Government is prepared to give caviar to the political staff in the Prem ier's Office and peanuts to the day- Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please; order, please. Ms. Wasylycia-leis: My question to the Minister of Fam ily Services (Mrs.

Oleson) is: can this Minister exp lain to this House where is the fairness in a situation where Michael Bessey , who hand les the Premi er, receives $70,526; le tter carriers handle the mai l, receiving over $27 ,000; clerks who handle groceries at Safeway receive over $2 1,000; but this Government sees fit to pay individuals who require a two- to three year community college diploma and look after children in this province, only $15 ,600.00? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speak er, I am really interested to hear the comments of the Mem ber for St.

Johns, because it is interesting to know that when she was in Government, when the NOP was starving day care workers, when they were creating the situation that currently prevails in terms of salaries to day care workers, during that same period of time her administration tripled the salary of the wife of the Leader of the NO P. •

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Filmon: Tripled the salary-in a space between 1982 and 1988, they tripled the salary. Her own salary during a period of less than two years, from 1982 to 1984, when she was a co-ordinator of the Premier's Secretariat that is the Memb er for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis). Her salary went up 23 percent in less than two years while she was starving day care workers, providing them with increases of less than 5 percent, but her own salary was raised by 23 percent in that year.

I think it is shocking, shameful, and she ought to be emb arrassed about those things. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order, please. I am sure all Ho nourable Mem bers would like to proceed . Hono urable Mem bers who wish to carry on a private conversation, as it appears that they are trying to do, may do so outside the Cham ber. Day Care Workers Salaries Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for St. Johns, with her final supp lementary question. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Yes, Mr. Speaker, with my second last question. Maybe the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) would like to put on the record that the salary of the co-ordinator and the Premier's secretary is double, double what I earned back those years ago- Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: -and maybe he can exp lain that. Mr. Speaker, if the Premier is not prepared to hear the voices of day care worke rs, parents and children today by way of their illustration with peanuts, perhaps he is prepared to add ress the hundreds and hundreds of letters- Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order, please.

I have just finished warning the Honourable Memb er for St. Johns. Order . The Honourable Mem ber for St. Johns, kindly put her question now, please. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Spea ker, I apolog ize for that. I only use that as an illustration of the seriousne ss of this current issue. My question back to the Minister of Family Services (M rs.

Oleson) , since she is responsible for day care, is this: is the Minister now willing to enter into negotiations with child care professionals to reach the salary level recommende d by an independent assessment and recommending that day care workers earn on average $23,000, and is she prepared to commit herself today that she will negotiate that with day care workers for a three-year period? * (1 355) Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speak er, I have always indicated, even the day that I made the announcement to the med ia and to the people of Manitoba, what the funding was for this year, the $6 million increase in day care for this year. I indicated to them at that time that I was concerned about the salaries and would be work ing with the day care field to improve the salaries. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: But the Minister is not prepared to sit down with day care workers and begin negotiating a three-year settlement. Mini-Skool Closure Replacement Centre Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St.

Johns): My final question to the Minister is this: what is this Minister prepared to do in the next three days to do something about the fact that Mini-Skool, a profit day care owned by Kinder-Care, an Alabama based company, shuts its doors on Friday, September 29, leaving children without � care and at risk? What is this Minister going to do to � respond to the request for parents wanting to set up their own co-op day care as a replacement to that day care? What is she going to do and will she- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Ms. Wasy lycia-Leis: -solve this situation immedia tely?

Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services ): As soon as the staff got word that this centre was proposing to close, the centre was provided with information on what spaces were available in the neigh bourhood, in other day cares. Many people have found spaces. There has been a parent group write me a letter and my staff are work ing with them to see if they can set up another centre. All these things are being done. The Member thinks they have not got my attention. They have. I meet with these groups and the � work is being done. � Conflict of Interest Municipal Act Amendments Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): I see the marriage of convenience is suffering some strains and some tension. I am sure they will work it out. My question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme). Yesterday the Minister gave confused and mudd led answers to direct questions on the issue of perceived conflict of interest among municipal councillors. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs ): Nothing comp ared to the confused and bum bled questions. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, the mudd led Minister for Seniors (Mr. Downey) is mumbling from his chair. Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh! 1295

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, first he confuses the municipal- Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The Honou rable Mem ber for Fort Rouge has the floor. Mr. Carr: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . First the Minister confuses The Municipal Council Conflict of Interest Act with The City of Winnipeg Act, and then he tells us that all is well, the guidelines are sufficient, seeming to ask what is all the fuss about? Mr. Speaker, his lazy, hazing meanderings are not good enough for a skep tical public.

Has the wave of public opinion washed over the Minister overnight, leaving a residue of sober second thought, and will he now admit to his mistake and announce changes to The Municipal Council Conflict of Interest Act, in order to safeguard the public interest? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, we thought that the Minister � had good sense to reflect overnight but apparently he ' has not. Why does the Government apply a diffe rent set of criteria to Mem bers of this Legislature as it does to municipal councillors? Mr.

Ducharme: In April of'83, everyone, through the municipalities, had all contributed to that part of the Act, and that is the legisl ation that go ver ns all municipalities and city council. Public Confidence Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): We are not dou bting, Mr. Speaker, which Act prevails. We are talking about whether or not this Act is strong enough. Is the Minister satisfied that this laissez-faire approach on this issue will undermine public confidence in municipal politics in Manitoba, and what is he going to do about it? * (14 00) Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): � Mr.

Speak er, anyone writing legislation will know that , it is unfortunate that perception is always out there no matter what you set as guidelines. And, as I say again, when they set the legislation review and they discussed the conflict guidelines throughout the province in 19 83, when they set the legisl ation, it was set for all municipalities and the City of Winnipeg. Land Development Proposal Calls Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): I have a question for the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme).

In June of 19 88, the Ma nitoba Home Builders Association circulated a memo informing its mem bers that the Government was interested in hearing proposals on the de velopment of three areas in the City of Winnipeg , those being south St. Boniface, Meadows West and the South Island Lakes. Mr. Spe aker, given that Ladco had the successful proposal on the south St. Bo niface land, which includes absolutely no commitment to non- profit housing, can the Minister of Housing tell us today if he has received any other proposals regarding the other two pieces of property? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Lamoureux: This is a supplementary question to the same Minister. Why did the Minister of Housing choose Ladco when we have since then learned that a consortium of companies put forward a proposal that would have seen Meadows West developed, along with the St. Boniface lands. This would have ensured low end and non-profit housing. They, too, were forecasting a profit. Mr. Ducharme: We sat down with the critic and explained . Not only did we get more for the St.

Boniface lands but now we have, over and above that, about $3 million and all of the Maples land to now derive the profits so that we can enter into other contracts. We made mo re in the St. Boniface lands than in the proposal that he subm its and now have all the Maples lands as a result, and we will now be able to sell those lands. Mr. Lamour eux: Mr. Sp eaker , my supple menta ry question is, could the Mi nister of Hous ing (Mr .

Ducharme) please explain why he would enter into a high-risk deal with Ladco, a deal which includes no guarantee whatsoever of the development of non-profit or lower-ended housing while at the same time he rejected a proposal, that call that guaranteed a return of Government investment, a profit, and that is what the Government was trying to accomp lish. They would have guaranteed a profit along with low-end housing. Are you giving up on Mead ows West? Have you given up on South Island Lake? You have not received any proposal call. Mr.

Ducharme: I do not know how to explain to the individ uals that we made more money on one piece of land than we would have on the two pieces and now, Mr. Speak er, we will take the $10 million worth of profit and put it into proper housing right across the city and still have the Maples land to put into housing. Ladco Land Development Deal Joint Venture Viability Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): My question, too, is to the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme).

I ask him simply if he can indicate the status of the joint venture that he, as Minister of Housing, and his Government entered into with the private sector land developers, Ladco, to develop the south St. Boniface property for upscale housing. My specific request to him is, can he indicate if he is standing by his original assumptions as to the need for and the viability of the joint venture between his Government and Ladco? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Mr.

Speaker, the committee that is responsible for it, my Deputy Minister and my Assistant Deputy Minister, along with two other people form the management committee, 1296

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 they are now reviewing the proposal that they put through and the y will now be applying to the City of Winnipeg for a subd ivision in that area. My mind has not changed that it is a good arrangement for that area, and even with the market situation the way it is today, we had al ready put that into our proposal that it would be over the next 12 years. Mr.

Cowan: At the time the Minister announced the land deal with Ladco, he defended that deal by saying the bringing of this upscale housing project on the market would not glut the ma rket because there was a need for new housing in the City of Winnipeg . Housing Market Saturation Mr. Jay Cowan {Churchill): How does the Minister def end those statements he made a little over three months ago with his statement of September 15 , 1989, in his letter to the city in which he states that the existing supply is adeq uate to me et the city's needs for approxima tely 20 years beyond the turn of the century?

Simil arly, there is a surplus of large lots in the City of Winnipeg that far exceeds any foreseea ble demand. Does he still stand by his statements earlier that this will not glut the market when there is no need ? Hon. Gerald Ducharme {Minister of Housing): Mr. Speak er, I was referring in that letter-i f you would place the letter before the Assembly- about lots to be dev eloped outside the urban limit line; and secondly, if he would also go back and look at the projections for the St.

Bonif ace area even during the worst years,'81- 82, that the house sales were down, that particular area always produced at least 120 to 15 0 home s a year and that is what we have set our projections on, at the lowest figure, in the lowest years. Mr. Cowan: It is interesting that there are not enough houses on the marke t when the company wants to enter into a deal with private sector land developers and there are too many houses on the market a few months later. Government Developing Mr.

Jay Cowan {Churchill): Can the Minister assure the Leg islature that the fact his Go vern ment, the Conservative Government, has directly entered into the housing market as a de veloper is not causing the Government to reject new de velopments because of the im pact of additional housing on the viability and profitability of their own deals with private sector land de velo pers? Hon. Gerald Ducharme {Minister of Housing): Mr. Speak er, definitely yes. Ste. Anne, Manitoba Policing Mr. Paul Edwards {St. James): My question is for the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae). The police department in Ste.

Anne, Manitoba, has asked this Minister for help in dealing with its problems with the town's mayor and his family. There appears to be a high level of conflict and hostility between the police department and the mayor, and the police morale in Ste. Anne is no doubt suffering as a result. We have now learned that the chief constable, Constable Mantey, alleges that he has indirectly received very serious threats which may be related to these problems. Mr. Speaker , my question is, given that the Minister has been aware of this problem for some time, what actions have he and his department taken to deal with them?

Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am aware, Mr. Speaker , of the difficulties referred to by the Honourable Member in the Town of Ste. Anne. I have received correspondence from various people in that area, including the chief of police, and my department and I have discussed this matter. We discussed the matter with Assistant Superintendent Henry of the RCMP as well. By letter of today's date, we are asking the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to � conduct a complete investigation into the allegations and counter-allegations that are being made in the Town of Ste. Anne. Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Speaker, I understand that the Minister has as well seen fit to meet with the mayor, yet, despite a specific request from the police constable, has not yet met with him to explore and investigate these allegations so that he can get both sides of the story, which I am sure he is very interested in getting, and deal with this matter swiftly and fairly. Will the Min ister immedia tely make contact with the chief constable in order to hear his side and set up a mee ting with him as he did with the mayor? Mr. Mccrae: I met with Mayor Blanchette in his capacity as a private citizen of the Town of Ste.

Anne by virtue of the fact that the mayor removed himself from discussion of issues relating to the police due to a perceived or real-I am not sure which-c onflict on his part. I do not see any point taking sides in this .i House, one side or the other, as the Honourable Mem ber � seems to want to do. I prefer to leave the matter in the hands of the RCMP which, under The Police Act of Manitoba, is the appropriate thing to do when circumstances like this arise. An Honour able Member: Hear, hear! Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, quite the contrary, I am asking the Minister to meet with both sides.

He has met with one thus far. Mr. Speaker, again for the Minister, I appreciate that the Minister has referred this to the RCMP. However, the RCMP through their police activities have been referred many of the cases and , I would say, have in some respects become an interested party in this. Has the Minister considered referring this matter to the Police Comm ission pursuant to The Provincial Police Act, given that both the mayor and the chief constable have asked for a thorough inquiry and an impartial 1297

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 inquiry, not to suggest that the RCMP would not give that. Ho wever, they have been involv ed with the constabulary in Ste. Anne. I would ask the Minister to consider whether or not the Police Comm ission would not be a better forum to look into this. Mr. Speaker: Order , please. * (1410 ) Mr. Mccrae: We can always expect the Honourable Mem ber to have an alternative approach, and I certainly do not fault him for that. I must also respond respecting meet ing with both sides.

Considering the correspondenc e that I received from both sides, considering the information I have coming out of the Law Enforcement Review Agen cy, I see no need, having referred the matter to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, for mee ting with anyone else personally about this. I can tell the Honourable Mem ber that I have met with the executive director of the Manitoba Police � Comm ission in coming to the decision that I have come , to today. Manitoba Data Services Divestiture Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Data Services Corporation (Mr. Manness). Ma nitobans are increasingly concerned over the Go vernment 's plan to sell control of confidential personal records stored in Government departments and agencies. They want to know why records of everything from their health records, tax information, credit records of farmers among others, should be stored on computer banks in private firms.

They want to know what giveaway of this Government is planning, what this giveaway will cost taxpayers, and they want to know what excuse this Government will have to defend the privacy violations should the de al go through. � Will the Minister today release the short list of the firms ' who are interested in purchasing this profitable and efficient Crown corporation? Hon. Clayton Man ness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I had trouble following the pream ble. The Member was all over the map.

I do not know whether the Memb er was wanting greater assurances with respect to secrecy, given the fact that any of the inf ormation to which he allude s is propr ietary information owned by, in essence, the Government. Certainly I could give him those assurances over and over again. Ho pefully he would accept them. With respect to the numb er and the individua l corporations that have come to the short list. At this point, I think it would serve no good purpose that I provide those; after all, we are in a very specific time in negotiating and, as in the past, we have chosen not to negotiate in public.

That is also the case this time with the consideration of Manitoba Data Services. 1298 Systemhouse Proposal Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Will the Minister at lea st confirm that the company kn own as Systemhouse is one of the firms on this short list? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, Systemho use was one of the large number of firms that chose to put in a proposal. Mr. Leonard Evans: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker , to the Minister of Fam ily Services (Mrs. Oleson).

It is my understan ding that Min ister has awarded contracts to the same firm to do an analysis of their computer needs when this same firm is bidding to take over MO S. In other words, has the Minister permitted Systemho use to be in a position where it could be recommending MO S for the department's future need s when Systemh ouse itself is hoping to own MO S? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker , I wish the Mem ber for Brandon East would state his case.

Systemh ouse has done contracting work for var ious Go vernment departments, particularly Municipal Affairs and indeed many others for years, including the former Government.- (interjection)- So the Mem ber says to me from his seat, so what? I say back to him, so what? Rural Economic Development Infrastructure Costs Mr. Speaker: The Ho nou rable First Min ister (Mr. Filmon), in response to a question taken as notice. Hon. Gary Filmon (Prem ier): On Friday last, the Memb er for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) asked a question about the cost sharing by municipalities with respect to infrastructure costs.

He asserted that the former Government's policy was that they would fund 75 or 80 percent of the costs of infrastructure funding, Mr. Speaker. I would like- ***** Mr. Speake r: Order , please; ord er, ple ase. The Honourable Memb er for Dauph in, on a point of order. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): The First Minister is abusing Question Period. He did not take this as notice. This was not taken as notice by that Minister. He went on ad nauseum about his policy and sat down. He thought he answered the question. This is abuse of Question Period to stand up. Mr. Speaker: Order , please.

The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honou rable First Minister to finish his response. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speak er, I would like to quote from a news release of March 5, 19 88, "Pr emier Howard

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 Pawley today announced that the re-elected NDP Government will establish a fund for rural development to imp rove the quality of roads, bridges, water and sewer systems in Ma nitoba towns and vil lages. Municipalities will be expected to provide 50 percent of the money for the project supported by the fund ." I further quote in response to a question by the Mem ber for Arthur on May 25, 19 87.

Honourable John Bucklaschuk, then Minister of Municipal Develop ment said, "Mu nicipal officials have told us that if we were able to obtain funds from the federal Government, they would still like to go on a 50-50 cost share." That is what the Honourable John Bucklaschuk said . So I leave that on the record as their policy. POIN T OF ORDER Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for Thompson, on a point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker , I am wond ering, and perhaps if we can clarify this in the future, whether it is considered in order for Ministers to rise at a subsequent day when they did not take a question as a matter of notice. That has not been our standard practice in the House. I am wondering if you could advise Mem bers of this House as to whether that is in fact in order. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Mem ber for Thompson. I will take that matter unde r advisement, and I will report back to the House. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for Kildo nan has time for one short question.

The Honourable Mem ber for Dauphin, on a new point of order. Mr. Plohman: I think it is appropriate that the First Minister apologize to this Hous e for saying that our policy was: a hundred percent of those programs should be funded by municipalities. He misled this House and he should apologi ze today. Maybe that is why he stood up. Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order, please. As the Honourable Mem ber for Dauphin is quite aware, a dispute over the facts is not a point of order. I have recognized the Honourable Memb er for Kildonan. ***** Health Care Underspending Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr.

Speaker, the head of Urology at Health Sciences is leaving Manitoba. As a result, patient care as well as teaching prog rams have suffered . The main reason for the de parture is a lack of O. R. time. While the surgeons continue to compete for a limited O. R. time, the list for surgical procedures can begin to grow. My question is to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). How can he justify underspending $29 million of last year's budget while the patients continue to wait for all surgical procedures, physicians are leaving Manitoba, and those surgeons are also leaving Manitoba? Hon.

Donald Or chard (Mi nister of He alth): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my honourable friend's question because it is very similar to the question he posed last Session about subspecialists at the Children's Hospital leav ing the Pr ovince of Ma nitoba for career advancement and the successful re-recruitment that has taken place at Children's Hospital to replace those various subspecialists. Mr.

Speak er, my honourable friend 's premise to his question is absolutely false, because if my honourable friend took the time to analyze last year's budg et funding, he would find that the hospitals spent not only what was budgeted in the defeated Budge t, but an additional $10 million budgeted by this Government, so that the budgets of hospitals were not underspent, and I wish my honourable friend would get his facts straight and stop his fearmonge ring. � Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Time for oral questions has expired. ORDERS OF TH E DAY Hon.

James Mccrae (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presen ted and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Com mittee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Mem ber for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transp ortation ; and the Honour able Member for Burr ows (Mr .

Chornop yski) in the Cha ir for the Department of Ag riculture. * (14 20) � CONCU RRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPP LY SUP PLY- HIGHW AYS AND TRANSPOR TATION Mr. Chairman (Ha rold Gilleshammer): Hig hways and Transpor tation Department, when we finished off yesterday, we were discussing item 3, Planning and Design and Land Surveys,

section (

a) Planning and Desig n:

(1) Salar ies and Wages $1 ,824, 500 -the Mem ber for Dauphin. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Chairman, just in terms of procedure, could I have your guidance as to when we could discuss the GST and its impact on transportation? I know there may have been some discussion yesterd ay. I am not sure whether this is the appropriate place. The other one is The Off- Road Ve hicles Act under the Motor Ve hicle Branch. Is that where the Minister would like to discuss that or where? 1299

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 Hon. Albert Drie d ger (Minis ter of Hi ghways and Transportation ): Regarding the GST, we had quite a discussion about it yesterday. I indicated what was happening within the department. I am instructing my deputy and it is in process right now to establish exactly wha t im pact the GST would have on the whole transportation aspect of it. We do not have the figures available at this time. Once we have them we certainly are prepared to make them available.

I also indicated that at the meeting in Calgary the Council of Ministers, when they met, this was a decision that was made by all provinces that they would all be following that approach. So I just want to reiterate what I said yesterday that we are trying to establish the impact of what the GST would have on the Hig hways and Transportation Department generally. I indicated that relatively complex process. We are in the process right now and we will certainly try and move it along as fast as we can. Mr.

Plohman: I must thank the Liberal Critic for allowing � my intervention here before he continues with his ' questions, but I wanted to know whether the Minister had set a timetable, a date when he could make information available on the GST's im pact on the transportation sector in Manitoba and indeed its impact on all consumers, because rural and northern areas depend on transpor tation for all of their goods, obviously, and if he could give us a date.

Secondly, would he just confirm that the off-road vehicle issue would be discussed under the Driver and Ve hicle Licensing or will it be discussed somewhere else? * (14 30) Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the Mem ber is asking for a specific timetable in terms of information on the GST. I just want to reassure him that it is of vital importance to myself and my department as to the impact, and certainly to the Government of the Day and the Department of Finance, but I cannot give him ll a definitive date on it. All I would like to indicate to ' him is that we will be very interested in the impact.

I think time is of the essence, and we will move along as fast as we can. I give him that assurance without being able to put a specific time on it. Most certainly if there are undue delays I would expect that the issue could be raised by the Mem bers at any given time, either in the House or privately, and I will give them an update as to what the status is. Certainly there will not be any undue delay coming from my de partment in terms of trying to get that information forward. Regarding The Off- Road Ve hicles Act, most certainly we are prepared to discuss that under the driver and vehicle licensing.

I think that would be the most appropriate place unless there is a different desire. We can accommoda te that at any time. Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): Mr. Chairperson, page 31 of your annual report, Mr. Minister, under Planning and Design, Rail Branchline Abandonment Study which was conducted by the Touche Ross people, could the critics be provided with this study? Ha s it been completed and, if so, what impact is it going to have on rail line abandonment here in Manitoba?

I will just ask the Minister, are we going to be discussing branchline abandonment in this department or are we going to go into some other department to discuss rail line branch abandonment? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I mig ht sugge st to the Mem ber, that comes under Transportation under item 5, Transportation Policy and Research. I will be having my respective staff here at that time, Mr. Wallace. If it is acceptable then I would like to try and get the information about the study to the Mem ber beforehand and then we could discuss it under that item. Mr.

Mandr ake: I do not have any objections to that, Mr. Chairperson. I would be mo re than pleased to discuss that particular issue in that department. I have some other questions, here, Mr. Chairperson. I will try to be as fast as I possibly can so that we can get through Estimates as fast as we can. I am quite sure the Mem ber for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) wants that. Mr. Albert Driedger: No rush. Mr. Mandr ake: If the Minister says no rush, then that is fine, so be it. The tourism industry of Manitoba has asked for several resolutions to be attended .

I will go over them one by one and ask the Minister for his response. That is a full map of Manitoba which would include Churchill, and the sugg estion is the reverse side of the map; Department of Highways to erect signage on major highways throughout the province that would indicate to the traveller that they are entering a specific tourist region; Department of Hig hways to identify the tourist region of Manitoba on the highway map; the main market road which extends four miles from PTH 12 to Buffalo Point to be hard surfaced to support the expansion of Buffalo Point.

This is in the Minister's own constituency, so I am quite sure that he will take that as- Mr. Plohman: Do we not know he is a strong advocate? Mr. Mandr ake: Oh he is, he truly is. The other one, Mr. Chairperson, I drove out to Manipogo and drove by that beautiful beach that we have there. I was very, very much amazed that all we have is a small little green marking on the map saying this is Manipogo. I think if we are going to attract the tourist industry we are going to have to be a little bit more forceful in identifying these various areas.

Wait, for exam ple, I would sugge st probably even down- An Honourable Member: Where? Mr. Mandrake: -S te. Rose, whatever the case may be. Let us tell the public exactly where these areas are. Mr. Plohman: There is a sign if the Member de cided to see it. 1300

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 Mr. Mandr ake: Yes, but not a nice one. I am talking about it, okay? I will await the response of the Minister. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the Mem ber raised a series of items. I hope I have covered them. I made notes of them to some deg ree as he was raising the questions. Regarding the full map, we have had numerous requests about having a full-size map. Staff is reviewing that possibility right now . One of the reasons why the map was cut back was done for financial reasons. Some years ago I think the Member for Dauphin (Mr.

Plohman). that would be the Minister at that time when this was done- cost factor certainly has a lot to do with it. We are reviewi ng the poss ibili ty of coming up-I am expecting a report with various options from staff in the very near future because we have to do it relatively soon if we are going to make any changes. I am hoping that I will be able to look at some options without increasing the price dramatically of having the map.

One of the rationale for having the cutback, first of all, was the financial aspect of it and the fact that we have no roads further north than the ones that have been shown on the existing map. Once the report comes forward, I would like to consider looking at the options and, like I say, staff is working with that right now and we should be able to de al with that very shortly. Regarding the signage request from the Department of Tourism, which is what I believe the Memb er made reference to, by regions, we are in dialogue with the Department of Tourism on a regular basis.

My dep uty and the deputy from Tourism have met to discuss the various promotions that could be undertaken jointly. We are talking of the tourist information booths, we are talking of rest stops, we are talking of various things to try and enhance the tou rist indus try within the province. We are in very close liaison and discussion with the Department of Tourism in terms of the things that we do that would enhance the aspect of tourism within the province. I note what the Mem ber has said and that will be also part of the discussion that is taking place.

The resolution I believe that the Department of Tourism has forwarded to my department, of course, is unde r consideration. When the Mem ber makes reference to the main market road from No. 12 to Buffalo Point, he is correct, that is within my constituency. In fact, the Minister of Tourism (Mr. Ernst) and myself had the occasion to be down there last year.

We are working together with the community, for the people involved, and part of the reason why it has not moved forward faster is one of the policies within the department has been that the Gov ernment do es not und ertake to build roads, especially provincial roads on reserve land. We feel the policy has been that we do not build on reserve land unless we have the right-of-w ay. Now, because this is reserve land, we are working together, my people have been working together with the fed eral Government, to try and resolve that aspect of it in terms of the right of-way and the cost-sharing arrangem ent.

Certainly I can indicate that I am very supportive of the project. I have been involved with the Buffalo Point 1301 people from the day that they basically almost started, and I think they have done a very tremendous job in terms of development out there. If anybody has an opportunity to get down there and have a look , they have done a tremendous job on the services that they are providing in terms of a marina. They have cottages moved in now, they are looking at setting up a lodge, plus the fact that there are two subdivisions in there where major lots are sold. There is a fair amount of activity in there.

I believe the department has been involved in doing the initial upgrading of the road ; however, if we are looking at imp roving the road and putting on, let us say, base and AST, more work has to be done . We have done preliminary studies and estimates have been undertaken. Once we resolve the aspect of right-of way, certainly I am going to be promoting the idea of proceeding with the project. * (14 40) Mr. Mandrake: I have just two further questions, Mr. � Chairperson.

On page 15 of your new projects for 1989- 90, Highw ay 366, and it refers to Woody River- and I have de sperately searched the map for Woody River and nowher e could it be fou nd-to PR268, 4.8 kilome tres grade and gravel.

I can appreciate his staff probably know where Woody River is, but could he possibly provide the critics with an appropriate type of map whereby if we look at this we can correlate it to the appropriate type of area that he is referring to so that we are not spending a lot of our precious time we do not have the admin istrative staff that he has to identify as to where this is going and where it is ending and where it is starting. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, to expedite things I have made a little circle exactly where it is on this map. It is in the Swan River area.

There is a river there that swings along there and it crosses the 268. I have circled that roughly so the Memb er has an idea where the project is. Mr. Mandrake: I apologize to the Minister. I would think � that maybe we should use some other type of an identification mark as opposed to a river. That is neither here nor there. Mr. Chairperson, I have one final question on this section. I have one other one on bicycle safety which I want to dwell on.

I think I asked the Minister yesterday, the Dauphin by-pass, which was land of approximately 20 acres which was expropriated, could he provide me with the cost of this land which was expropriated ? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I do not have that information available right here now. We certainly will provide that information to the Mem ber. Possibly the Mem ber for Dauphin (Mr. Plohm an) could help me out. He was the one who did the exprop riation. I know that we have the information available within the department and I will certainly bring it forward. Mr. Mandr ake: It is very, very unfair of Mr.

Chairperson to be referring to the previous Minister to provide this

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 information. The Mem ber for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) is not the present Minister of Hig hways and I do not think it would be incumbent upon him to make such a statement. I would prefer to have it from the present Minister of Highw ays. Thank you very much. Mr. Albert Driedger: I accept that statement. I indicated to the Mem ber that we wou ld be getting that information. To expedite the information so that the Mem ber had it right now, I asked the previous Minister whether he could recall, he having represented the area, but we will have it for him as soon as possible. Mr.

Mandr ake: I take your statement, but all I am trying to say is that the previous Minister might be out by $1 5, 000 to $20,000.00. If I was going to take it for his word I do not think that would be fair. I would never, ever expect the previous Minister to be asked . I know you said it in a jok ing manner, but I hope that we do not go into this type of a dialogue that we have to refer � to the previous Minister. Mr. Plohman: I am pleased to see the Liberal Critic standing up for my rights and seeing that I am not abused here and being asked unfair questions.

I would feel no compulsion to answer in any event since it would not be my responsibi lity. I can tell you insofar as this issue is concerned, last year the Mem ber asked about a problem that occurred there. I think first of all I want to preface what I want to say about this by- pass que stion. I have some questions for the Minister. The Minister does not do the negotiations, does not get involved with the payout of the dollars for expropriation, and so the current Minister is fully aware of that. It is even unfair from that point of view.

He do es not normally know the exact figures of these things nor did I know. I understand in this case there was a mistake made in the estimation by Government Services with regard to the amount, and subsequently they found out what their mistake was. They went back to an owner who happens to be a person that the Liberal Critic probably knows well, and without mentioning names and in that pa rticular -(interject ion)- well , the Mini ster says Rampton, who I beli eve is one of the indi viduals involved .

Certainly there was an update given to us by the Minister last year indicating that there had been made an offer that was much higher than the value was subsequently determined to be. I would like to ask the Minister just to follow up on the Member for Assiniboia's (Mr. Mandrake) question, whether that now has been settled; whether it is going to the courts; whether it has been finalized, in fact there has been a settlement between the individual, a Mr.

Rampton, and the Departments of Government Services and Highways, since Highways is involved with this as well; and whether in fact the owner is still insisting on the original offer. I would like a status report on that from the Minister as soon as poss ible, if not today. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, staff indicates that they believe it is settled , but I do not want to leave a vague innuendo on the record. I am going to get specific information because that does not come under this department here, it comes unde r my Land Acquisition Branch in the Government Services.

We will get an updated report, a full report, on it and get back to both Mem bers hopefully the next time we meet. Mr. Plohman: Also, I would like to make a comment, very briefly, on the highways map. It is not a tourism map, it is meant to show highways. I think the reason for the reduced format was so that we could get competitive bids in Manitoba for the printing of this map because it was a little larger than most printers had the capacity for, and therefore the cost was much higher. Just by reducing it slightly the cost was reduced significantly.

However, that made it necessary to set it up at a scale that did not allow for the far northern part of the province to be shown on the same side and the roads that were necessary to show were shown in an insert, the Churchill area. Otherwise, as the Minister said, there were no additional roads there that needed to be shown and since this is a highways map it would seem that this was appropriate or suitable. Although the Mem ber, the Liberal Critic (Mr . Mandrake), has raised it as an issue, at the time I did not get a lot of criticism for this.

The previous format had the rest of the map, I believe, on the back side but there is so much information to put on the map. Because it is in a bilingual format, there was no room to include that any longer and also include all the other information. A lot of this information would then have to be left off the map. That is some of the background on why that map was reduced in size, for cost factors. I wanted to ask the Minister about the situation at Buffalo Point.

He said that he is going to be bringing forward -o nce he is able to work out some details with the federal Government perhaps, or purchase of the right-of-way to rebuild the road, to reconstruct and perhaps pave through the reserve at Buffalo Point. As I understand it, although it was not finalized , I believe the policy that was being developed was that the federal Government should pay the full cost of construction of any road that is destined for a reserve. In this case that is the case. There is no other, at least as I understand it, provincial development on the other side of the reserve.

I believe the reserve goes right up to the water and so, therefore, there is really no other destination but the reserve itself. If that is the case, is he changing the policy to fit this particular instance, and will that then be applied on all reserves in the future on a case-by-case basis, based on that policy? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, first I will ma ke reference to the fact that the Mem ber made reference to the map. We are looking at the possibility of again adding that top portion in a condensed form on the back so that the people would still get a full view of the province.

That is one of the options that I am looking at without trying to increase the cost. We are working on that aspect of it and I think that was do ne once before. But coming back to the Buffalo Point, part of the neg otiations that staff is having with the federal 1302

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 Government at the present time is dealing with areas other than just Buffalo Point. As well, I believe we are looking at add ressing this on a provincial basis so we do not necessarily set a precedent because we have other cases where a road leads up to a reserve with certain services. If we can come to an understanding so that the feds are prepared to take and pay a portion of it, whatever we can negotiate with them on the reserve property, providing we get the right-of-way, we might have to look at changing the policy.

At the present time I think our policy does not necessarily make provision for that kind of a thing without some changes. * (1 450) Mr. Chairman , one of the things that we are looking at is the fact that specifically in Buffalo Point it does not just go to the reserve, it goes to a service that is provided , a public service at the marina where various services are being provided, albeit they be on reserve property, but we are looking at the possibility of using that as a rationale for maybe working out a program that would accommoda te them. Mr. Plohman: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, then the Minister is ad mitting that this would be a change in policy for this situation, because the policy that I believe we were following or that was being developed was that, as I said earlier, the fed eral Government would pay the construction costs 100 percent for roads that led into a reserve with the reserve as the destination, not through a reserve, but ended in a reserve.

The Minister is now saying that perhaps where there are services for the public at large, even though they are on reserve property, then there would be an exception negotiated with the fed eral Government perhaps to get them to cost share a portion of it, but that the Government would definitely be prepared to pay at least, say, 50 percent or 75 percent of the cost of construction of that road. Is that a fair summ ary of what the Minister is considering here? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman , I believe it was the previous administration at the time when a proposal was forwarded to the federal Government for some kind of a cost-sharing arrangement and when that was forwarded -I do not know whether we have received a response back from them specifically on that. That is the format that we are using right now in terms of our negotiations with them. However, we have not completed those negotiations but nothing has changed in terms of the format that is being used in terms of trying to get them to come to an agreement with us. Mr.

Plohman: Just to tie this up, this issue then, it seems though that the Minister would be putting forward a subtle alteration, variation to the Manitoba position to include Buffalo Point in those negotiations, that situation. That is what I am asking the Minister. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I would want to be very cautious how I answer that. I do not think that we would be em barking on a project of this nature whereby we set a precedent, because we have many other cases where the same thing would apply.

That is why we are trying to work out something that could be add ressed on a broader basis than jus t to accommoda te the one community. I know that sounds vague enough but I have nothing definite to give at this stage of the game other than that we are in a negotiating mode with the federal Government and hopefully we can come up with some kind of a cost sharing arrangement that would be able to be applied in more cases than just the Buffalo Point situation. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, the Minister just said that the proposals the previous Government put forward were the basis for the negotiations.

Those proposals were the Manitoba position. He said we have not changed that position but now he is coming forward with a situation that does not fit that particular policy as I recall it, because that proposal required the federal Government, or propos ed to the federal Governme nt that they would fund 100 percent of the construction costs of roads that terminate in reserves. This one terminates in a reserve.

That is why I am asking the Minister if he is changing his policy and therefore his position that he is taking with the federal Government saying oh, under certain circumstances we will be willing to participate in the construction, especially when there are services offered there for the public at large. We are going to use that as a rationale for changing our position. That is legitimate perhaps. We did not take that position but perhaps the Minister is now taking that position. If he is, it is just a simple matter of saying yes, that is so. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I am not necessarily taking any position in that regard. What I suggested , and I repeat, is that we are negotiating with the fed eral Government on the general cost-sharing arrangement. The proposal that was forwarded to them previously, we used the same format in our negotiations at this stage of the game. Mr. Chairman, my staff tells me that the situation in Buffalo Point is unique; however, we cannot really make any indication what. we are going to do until we see how our negotiations with the federal Government flow.

Once we have that reaction, then we will be able to indicate exactly how we are going to deal with that. It mig ht involve a policy change, I do not know. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, it is just that Buffalo Point may be unique now but it may not be unique very long. Other reserves where provincial roads lead to the reserve and where we insist that the federal Government pay for the remainder of the road because it terminates in a reserve may develop tourism destinations and facilities for the public at large, such as marinas, lodges and whatever. That may happen.

As a matter of fact it probably will happen, because Native groups, bands, need some type of economic development and tourism is one good potential for them. If the Minister is now indicating that under those circumstances the province would be willing to pay a portion of the construction costs of a road, then that would be the outcome and he should be aware of that of proceeding in this fashion I think with Buffalo Point. He is establishing a new policy area. Mr. Albert Driedger: I mig ht indicate to the Member that I am aware of that situation and that is why we 1303

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 have not developed any scenario at this stage of the game. Hopefully, once we know where we stand with the federal Government, then we would have to access in terms of how we apply the program. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, the Minister said that he intends to put this on the program once he can get the right-of-way and that he is prepared to therefore commit funding for it.

I think he has already stated that he is prepared to commit funding and therefore change the policy and that will obviously, I would think, be something that the feds will become aware of and the Minister will not have a very strong negotiating position under those circumstances. Mr. Mandr ake: Mr. Chairperson, I am just going to go back a few steps here. I appreciate the comments made by the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), but I omitted to ask the Minister last night, it is on Route 90.

I appreciate everything has to go through Urban Affairs, so I would ask him whether or not he would lobby the Urban Affairs Department and that is to probably � upg rade Route 90 from lnkster Bou levard to the ' Perimeter. If this is in the planning stage, when would he anticipate the completion of that particular road? • Mr. Albert Driedger: My staff are in negotiations with the city right now.

Dialogue is taking place and it is our unde rstanding or impression that the city would be contemplating to do work on 90 within a reasonable period of time, dovetailing it to some deg ree with activities which we plan to undertake at that juncture. Mr. Mandrake: The Minister was very careful in his words, "within a reasonable period of time." Within a reasonable period of time, Mr. Minister, when you had the first budge ts on Hig hway 75, you were so elaborate that you were going to be doing it from both ends, and within a reasonable period of time.

I would like to know, is it going to happen within two years, five years, or 10 years? Could you give me an approximate number? I will never hold you to it, but give me at least some kind of years. * (1 500) Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Ch airman, it is my understanding that the city, I cannot account for exactly what they will do because they have their portion that they will have to do. It is our hope that we can dovetail the project from the city aspect of it together with ours.

In terms of being more specific between two and 10 years, I would anticipate it would be sooner than that, but it depen ds on the negotiations. Once we have the negotiations completed, then the necessary survey work has to be done by them as well as ourselves, and ultimately the funding has to be put in place, so it could be four or five years. I am just guessing, it could be even longer, I guess. Mr. Mandr ake: I am sorry, I overheard the Deputy Minister say something-four or five years until you have completed your work or what? Or I was not supposed to hear this? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, we do not have any secrets here. Whatever we discuss is very public, and we want to put on the record that it was me who said four or five years, and my Deputy indicated that it could be a shorter period of time. An Honourable Member: It will come back to haunt you in five years. Mr. Mand rake: No, it will not. No, we do not operate that way. Mr. Chairperson, between PR 276 and 269 you have slated some construction on 490. I saw the sign there and it was supposed to have been done by a John Strilkiwski.

Could you be so kind as to elaborate on this as to wha t work is to be done on that piece of road, and just tell me what is going to be done on that road first, okay? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the Mem ber will have to have a little patience with me. We have so many signs all over the province that I have lost track a little bit. It is just like billboards all over the place, but we will try and establish exactly which project and wha t we are doing on this one.

I wonder, while we are waiting for the information, whether the Member would care to make a comment about the kind of signs that we have out there. We have two different kinds of signs. We have the ones in the PTHs which are the nice blue and white ones, then we have the older ones because we are trying to be economical, and the green ones that we use on the PR system, so if the Mem ber wants to applaud the Government at this time, I will accept that. Mr. Mandr ake: Mr. Chairperson, I notice the Minister constantly patting himself on the back as to how well he is doing within his depa rtment.

We will soon take him to task on the capital projects. We will show him exactly how much money he has put into highways and capital projects, which amounts to $1, 752,0 00.00. Mr. Mini ster, although I app reciate your sig ns and I appreciate seeing your name underneath there, let us not get into dull things like that. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, maybe I can give the information on Hig hway 269 now from PR 490 up to PR 276, which happens to be in district 8, in fact, in the Mem ber for Dauphin's constituency where we have a 10.9-kil ometre piece of road which we are doing base and asphalt surface treatment which was awarded to Strilkiwski in August. It has been let; they are working on it. Mr. Mandrake: That is what I thought, Mr. Chairperson. Thank you very much. My next question is this. I know John Strilkiwski very well. His business has been primarily in the gravel business.

How are these contracts being let out to people who probably do not have the equipment to perform these types of tasks? I drove past Mr. Strilkiwski's place of business and I had not seen any type of equipment, an asphalt laying machine there, anything like that. Please explain, Mr. Minister. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I will try and explain to the Mem ber. First of all, on this portion of road it 1304

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 is not asphalt that is being laid , it is base and AST, and this company basically has the contract for doing the crushing and the laying of the gravel. It is our department that actually do es the application of the base and the AST, asphalt surface. The contract that this contractor has is doing the crushing and the laying of the gravel and our department does the balance. Mr. Mandr ake: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairperson.

I was hoping that John did not get this contract because he was the local person, even though he did not have the capabili ties of do ing it, but seei ng that your department is doing the laying of the asphalt I will gladly pass on that. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman , just before we move on, I know that the people up in the Meadow Portage, Waterhen area are very pleased to see the remaining short distance being completed on 269. I know that even the Member for Ste. Rose is probably pleased to see that happening, although it is not in his constituency.

I was rather surprised that the Minister was aware that it was in my constituency. I thought that would not make any difference to him. In any event, I was going to ask him about a couple of other projects. No. 1 was the Treesbank ferry. Can the Minister indicate to me whether the bridge has been completed and now opera tional, and whether the old ferry has been dispos ed of, and how and at what price and so on? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased to give the ans wer to this question because the Treesbank bridge has been completed.

In fact, this coming Friday we are going to have the official opening of the Treesbank bridge. I mig ht also indicate that I think my deputy and myself were the first people to drive across that bridge before it was even quite completed. We had a good look at the situation. We are pleased with the project. The transaction with the ferry to the municipality, I think that was an agreement that was struck before and we have completed that agreement with them. They will be taking possession of the ferry at the end of this year and moving it to Stockton. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Chairman, I am very pleased to hear that has been completed, too. I do not know whether the Minister is going to be inviting critics to the ceremony but certainly I feel somewha t responsible for the work that started on that project after many years of consecutive Go ver nments dela ying it, both Conse rvative and NOP Governments over the years. It was nice to get that thing moving and it is go od to see it is completed. No, I do not expect an invitation but I just thought I would mention it. I wond ered about this disposal of the- Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman , if I could interrupt for just a moment.

I would certainly not want to leave the imp ression here that the critics would not be invited. Certainly I would extend an open invitation to attend the official opening of the Trees bank bridge which will take place on Friday at four o'clock. I mig ht add that I think the program has been established and I do not know whether we want to make provision and extend the program at this stage of the game, but certainly if the critics want to appear there, for my part of it I would even introduce them as critics of their various Parties. The invitation is open. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate the Minister's kind invitation. We will have to see. He called my bluff whether I can be there. In any event, I want him to perhaps extend on my behalf, whether I am there or not, the kind wishes to the people in the area for having this received and their perseve rance in making this a reality, because they certainly worked hard in an organized way to pressure the Government to have this project completed. * (15 10) I am concerned- just about the ferry. The Treesbank Ferry was rebuilt a few years ago, and there was an agreement with the muni cipality.

I beli eve it was � something like 10,000 or 20,000 a year for three years � or some thing, that they would provide-t here was some agreement. But I saw an Order -in-Cou ncil that seems to indicate that the total price is $20,000 and it has just been turned over for $20,000.00. It seems to me that was not the price we agreed to. I wonder whether the Minister could just clarify that. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to indicate that there have been no changes of the initial agreement that were set up and the municipality did not contribute this $20,000; it was contributions to the extent of $30,000 previously. The total contribution would be in the area of $50,000 which is basically half the price of what the ferry is worth. The agreement, the way it was initially formulated, has been gone ahead with. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Chairman, I am ple ased to hear that, because I did notice the $20,000 figure and I thought it was low from what we had agreed to because it had to be rebuilt and it was only going to be in use for a short time before the bridge would be in place. We had � at that time tried to get the best price for it in agreement with the municipality there. It is good to see that has been carried out. I wanted to ask also about Highw ay 44, and perhaps it was asked yesterday when I was not able to be here. I wanted to know what the plans are for Highway 44, the twinning. It seems to be on very much of a slow track.

The attension all seems to be on Highway 75, and undertook the construction of the extra lanes to Garson, I believe , and then the paving took place on the new lanes and the old lanes, but there has been nothing happening on the

section towards Beause jour which is in bad shape. It seems to me that the purchase of the land could have been going on last year for the by-pass and so on that was necessary, so that there could have been some construction this year. I think the Minister has been dragging his feet on this project a little bit. Can he indicate what the long-term plan is for that, even the short- to medium-term plan to complete that work, not long term? 1305

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I almost feel hurt a little bit when the Mem ber indicates that we would be slowing down a highway project in this province. That is certainly not the case. We are trying to escalate every project that we possibly can. Specifically on Highway 44, the Member is well aware of the heavy financial implications of buying the right-of-way, because we have the Tyndall and Garson communities. We are in the process of buying that right-of-way.

Hopefully we can have it completed possibly by the spring of next year, and we could possibly be looking at getting a major grading job into that area, maybe by next year. The inference is made that we have slowed the project down. I think the Mem ber should be well aware, and I think is aware, of the fact that the problems with buying a right-of-way in that general area. I do not have any total costs of that available right here now, but it is quite substantial, and it is an ongoing process. We have not stopped the program. Mr. Plohman: Inferences of slowing it down are all � relative.

There could have been a more agg ressive ' pursuit of the land last year, I would think, and there could have been a grading project this year. I just ask the Minister whether in fact it was a lower priority in favour of, say, Hig hway 75 over the last year, and that, no, the Minister is not cancelling the project, but he is not putting it on the fast track as he is doing with Hig hway 75. I think that is obvious to people there. What is the three-year plan, or four, what will it take to finish that now and how does he see it being staged? Mr. Albert Driedg er: Mr.

Cha irman, the Member representing Lac du Bonne t would be very upset if he got the impression that there was a slow down, because he is constantly in my office to remind me of the project that has been started, and it is certainly our intention to complete that project. As indi cated befo re, we are in the process of completing the acquisition right-of-way. Once that is done, we will have a waiting job.

The Mem ber well knows that is up to west of the junction of No. 12 and � from there on down to the Br okenhe ad River . , Dependin g, of course, whether we have a Government that puts a priority on highways, it will be faster. If we have a Government that does not put a high priority on highways, then of course it could take longer. I would anticipate that it is probably going to be on the faster track because -(interjection)- Mr. Plohman: The Minister is answering in circles here instead of giving a direct answer.

It is not a question of whether the Government puts a priority on highways, it is a matter of whether that Highway is given a priority or not. I am just asking whether it is going to be done in a four- or five-year plan to complete it, or does the Minister see it taking longer than that? What are his plans now, what are the department plans to have that completed? Do they see it happening in three years? Are there two grading jobs left or three? Then the paving that takes place there, how long is it going to take? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I would only venture to guess, if I did , at best you know how long it would 1306 take. First of all, the Mem ber was well aware that the next step is a major grading job that would take it to the west of No. 12. Su bsequent to that, we still have not even completed the survey desig n aspect of it to the Broken head River. I think four and five years is unrealistic to expect it to be done in that period of time because just the imp lications of all the things that have to be done. Even giving a high priority on Highway 75, we are looking at six and seven years before that could be completed.

The Mem ber sat there as Minister long enough and knows that he has so many dollars to spend and he tries to spread it around as reasonably as he can to try and accommoda te mo st of these situations throughout the province. That is what this Minister is undertaking right now, as the previous Minister did as well. I am not in a position at this stage of the game to make a commitment and say that project will be done within four or five years. I can indicate to him that we are going to continue with the project. There will not be a stoppage of the project, we will continue with it.

Certainly he does not have to encourage me any more than the Member from Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) is doing on a daily basis. I fail to see where he would want to pin that down. We certainly made that commitment that the project will be ongoing and would adhere to that. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, maybe the Mi nister resents that I would be asking about a project in a constituency that one of his colleagues represents. I do not think that means I should not be concerned or interested in it.

It is a project that we started in Government and that I would like to see completed, and take a great deal of pride in seeing progress on it. I have not seen any progress for a couple of years, other than the asphalt being laid on the other lanes. I just asked the Minister if he has a plan. I want to ask him also about the eastern access at Brandon too. Does he have a plan of construction, a three-year or fou r-year plan on those? I am not saying we had a plan when we did these projects, but I think we should have a plan, at least in the foreseeable future, in every case.

The Mem bers have said you cannot plan necessarily 10 years ahead and be exactly on, on every construction project. I just wonder whether the Minister has a projected completion date for that project or whether he is going to take it on a slow track where he does construction of a small

section one year and then the next year he goes ahead and buys a few more properties up, or is he going to be buying that property while he is doing the other work so he is ready to go with the next construction project the next year? Is it being done that way or is it being done in a very slow way, you complete what you started and then you start on the next

section from scratch again? * (1 520)

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 Mr. Albert Driedger: I would like to indicate to the Mem ber for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) that there has been a change in attitude within the department in terms of how we work on highway programs. The previous admi nistration had a tendency to try and give the imp ression that they would do three or four miles somewhere just to give the impression that they were doing major jobs. That was the way you had your priorities set. We have changed that; we do more major jobs. We get better bang for our buck in that aspect of it.

The Mem ber is indicating that on Hig hway 44 nothing has happened there. There was asphalt being laid there last year and we started the acquisition of rights-of way, which I have indicated we are continuing. If we want to talk about the Brandon eastern access , I can also indicate to him that we are moving on that in spite of the comments made by the Mem ber for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) when he said that we were doing nothing. We are moving on that project to the point where we have made a commitment that we will be having dirt flying within a reasonable period of time.

If the Mem ber is trying to give me a bit of a dig here about the progress that is happening in Hig hways, I am very defensive about that because we have a record that we can be proud of compared to what he had when he was there, not blaming him himself, but obviously his Government did not put a priority on highways. We ended up with an all-time low with $83 million being spent in '87. We are up to $10 2 million now.

If the Member wants to be critical of it I will de bate this for the next two days with him about who has put priorities on highways and where, and I will defend the highways that we have built througho ut the province as well, because he has some in his area as well as every Memb er in the Legislature who is in the rural area, they have highways in their areas. Mr. Chairman, while I am at this, I might as well keep on going .

I asked all Mem bers of the Legislature to bring forward their requests and I have tried to deal with them as fairly as possible, and certainly I think I have addressed most of the concerns that were brought forward to some deg ree. We pay particular attention, we have spent a lot of hours ma king sure that we were trying to be fair in terms of how we did that. I do not want to have the inference left on the record that we are playing politics with our road system, and that we are slowing down projects, speeding up projects.

I am very proud of the work that we have done to date with the highways program and hope to continue that way. Mr. Plohman: We really got an earful from a very sensitive Minister. He got into areas that I was not accusing him of wrongdo ing at all in. Certainly it seems to me that he is very sensitive about where he has been putting the bulk of his projects. I have not said to him that mos t of them are go ing into his constituencies or those represented by his colleagues. I have not said that. He has indicated that he is going with larger projects. Certainly the economies of scale are there.

It is more efficient if you can do that under certain circumstances. On the other hand, with the dollars that you have available you also try to spread it around as much as possible. You can do more projects if you do smaller projects. So naturally that is not there in a sinister way to manipulate the public process. What is intended is that there is some progress made for as many people as possible. The Minister knows there are demands all over the place and that you have to try to balance those out.

Just because the Minister sent a request-which I congratulate him on doi ng-t o all the Mem bers of the Legislature, asking them what their priorities are, does not mean that he will indeed make a great deal of progress on those priorities. For exam ple, I gave him a few priorities and indicated I would have a lot more once we got through those. He indicated that-well, I have seen the results, one project in the constituency of any significance. We just talked about it, on 269.

It is nice to do that, but if it is just a public relations gesture then of course it does not mean that much, but if we see results as a result of that request then it is more meaningful. I congratulate the Minister even more so under those circumstances. We did not see a great deal of results, so I am not prepared to do that � at this present time. Just to get on to this other issue, in terms of whether there has been a change in thinking and so on, I think it is im portant that the Minister indi cates to the Op position Critics what his plans are and that is what we have asked for.

He has not been able to give us a plan for Highway 44. It see ms clear that he is just going to play it by ear and decide on the basis of the pressure he gets as to whether he should move quicker or slower on it. It does not seem to be a very high priority as compared to, say, Highway 75 for the Minister. One other question for the Minister (Mr. Albert Driedger) is with regard to Highw ay 59. Has he received his report on the feasibility or the necessity of twinning Hig hway 59 south? He talked about that right after he was appointed Minister, that he is a homer and proud of it, and he wanted to twin Highw ay 59.

I just left that alone for a period of time. I knew that the Minister would come to regret that statement later on because he is there for all of Manitoba, as he tried to say to � us just a few moments ago, to try to meet the needs � of Manitobans throughout the province. But he felt a need to do a study on Highway 59 even while 44 is being twinned , be it slowly, Hig hway 75, Hig hway No. I east and west, massive outlays of money even with the small increase in the budget that he is talking about. You cannot just do everything in the world with another 10 million or $5 million.

It makes a difference but it is not so much that it makes a huge difference. I would just ask him then, is he still intent on twinning Hig hway 59 and has he received his report on the feasibility and whatever else was asked for on this project? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, first of all, I would like to go back. Before I finish my reply, I want to bring the current status of the Brandon eastern access. However, I want to indicate that if this Minister and his Government had been more concerned about highways during the last six-and-a-half years, instead of having 1307

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 a budget at the present time of 102 million, if we just use the normal rate of inflation my Department would now be spending anywhere around 120 million, $12 5 million which would have add ressed a lot of the concerns that he is putting forward in terms- An Honour able Member: We did not have the windfall from the fed eral Government that you have now. Mr. Albert Driedger: Well, windfall or not, the Highways budget, Mr. Chairman, was a carry-over budget from the Sterling Lyon years in 1982.

The capital budget was 100 million and then subsequently each year dropped down until finally in '87 it was down to $83 million. The Memb er says there has been very little increase. I will tell you some thing, it is sure working in the right way for a change. He aven forbid , we could have had this Government in longer. We probably would have ended up spending $50 million a year on the capital program . Add ressing the Hig hway 59 as indicated, I certainly have no qualms about asking that the study is in place right now.

I do not have the report on it yet and most certainly when the time comes that the city comes forward, I would certainly- based on the information that goes with it in terms of the amount of traffic on it-I can justify that with any other project we are undertaking. If the Mem ber has any qualms about that, he can ask for the figures as to what kind of traffic we want there and we will give it to him. Certainly it is one of the higher travelled roads.

The fact that we have done a study on it, the Mem ber full well knows that it is a long way from actual work being undertaken, just like they did with the Brandon eastern access which they have flogged to death for years and then it never moved anywhere at all. I would like to now give you the current status of that highway -(interjection)-Well, it did not, and I find it ironic that the Mem ber for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) jumps up and down and says oh, we did this, we did this. You did basically nothing, you know. But the current status, I would like to put that on the record.

This project is currently in the desig n and right-of-way acquisition phase. More specifically, the current works include the following: the detailed desig n for the CPR underpa ss structure by consultants LD. Engineering is we ll underway. It is estimated that this detailed structural desig n will be completed this fall. Ano ther de sig n study by consu ltants OS- Lea Consultants Ltd. has completed the functional and structural desig n of the traffic interchange at the Trans Canada Highway and the Brandon eastern indus trial route. Landowner interviews have been completed. A total of 19 landowners were involved.

Acquisition of rights-of-way are now in progress and scheduled to be comple ted by spr ing of 19 90. Su bje ct to the comp letion of the rig hts-o f-way acquisition , the construction phase of this project should start as early as 1990-19 91. Construction of this industrial route is tentatively staged as fol lows: • (1 530) Stage 1, Construction of the CPR underpass, the realignment of PR 457, and the grading of the industrial 1308 route between the CPR underpass and the Assiniboine River.

This stage of work will be preceded by the construction of our railway detour which we hope to have in our next year's program. Stage 2, Construction of the Assiniboine River bridge and the grading of the route southerly to connect with PR 344 which is basically Richmond Avenue extension. Stage 3, Comple tion of the industrial route between CPR unde rpa ss and the Trans Canada High way, including a traffic interchange at Trans Canada Highway. It is presently estimated that the construction will cost in excess of $16 million and will likely take at least five years to complete. Mr. Plohman: 1. will pass for now.

Mr. Mandr ake: Mr. Chairperson, I sat here with great anticipation hoping that the Minister, instead of reciting that whole poetry to us, that he would have tabled that document in lieu of going through this long dissertation of what they are doing . He has made a few very, very valid points and I would never take that away from him. Maybe to promote the speed of our Estimates we should try to refrain from these long, long dissertations about two words probably wou ld be more than sufficient. So I would probably sugge st using what had been told to me in the services, keep it simple, stupid.

So I am going to try to advance our Estimates in such a manner where maybe we could terminate it in a very short period of time. I do not know how long this is going to take. I would just like to ask the Minister, on page 38 of his annual report, he makes mention of bicycle safety, and cyclists' fatalities -(interjection)- Mr. Chairman: The Member for Dauphin, on a point of order. Mr. Plohman: I do not want to make this difficult in any way, but the Memb er says he wants to expedite things and then he goes into an area that I do not think is covered under Planning and Desig n.

In terms of bicycle safety, it comes under the Motor Vehicle Branch. So I just ask if this is proper, because I would like to move along. I have a couple of other questions on highway projects that are planned, and then move into the Motor Ve hicle Branch as it comes up in the department. Perhaps the Mem ber for Assiniboia has another rationale for this. Mr. Chairman: The Mem ber does not have a point of order. The Memb er for Assiniboia. Mr. Mandr ake: Mr. Chairperson, on your annual report of 19 87-88, the bicycle study was under this particular section.

So therefore this is why I am asking the question in this section. In the report it states bicycle safety, cyclist fatalities rose by 40 percent between 19 86 and '87. This was on top of a 67 percent increase between'85 and '86. What have we done or what has your department done to make, or in conjunction with MPIC, because they are the edu cational wing of bicycle safety, to have this

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 type of fatality brought down or to a level? I would prefer to see that nil, but I know it is going to be almost imposs ible. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, first of all, I do not know whether I should be concerned or not with the implication that we want to move fast throug h the Estimates. I find this a very edu cational experience, and I have as much time as the Members have. So whatever time you want to spend on these things, I am certainly going to be accommodating.

I would just like to indicate on the bicycle study that this was an internal study that was done by the department, a three-year study. I believe it is completed now or should be completed very shortly, and the findings will be presented to myself within the next six to eight weeks. That study that was undertaken involved the RCMP. it involved the cycling associations, the safety organizations, and I look forward to getting the results of this study and ho pefu lly we can make so me recommend ations and adjust according to what the study is sugge sting.

Cycling is a very popular sport at this stage of the game and the safety aspect of it, of course, is a maj or concern all the time. Where possible that we could take and actually we probably cannot do it, but it would be nice if we could, especially some routes that are more popular for cycling that we could pave the should ers aspect of it or bicycle trails, but certainly we will be able to add ress that a little better once we have the results of the study that is going to be presented to myself. Mr. Mandr ake: I do appreciate the Minister's answer, Mr.

Cha irper son, but if I can be allo wed so me sugge stions that could possibly make bicycle, the cyclist, bicycle safety a little bit better.

The following is what I will make attention to him, is that carriers, the people presently carrying their little children in the back of their bicycles in a bucket type of a seat without no protection for their feet, I would strongly sug gest to the Minister that he lobby the manufacturers of these seats, whereby they would construct it in such a way where the child's foot would be restrained and it would have a high back seat with a cross strap and, of course, CSA approved . The other thing too, Mr. Chairperson, is helmets.

I think It is almost, and I would not want to be put on record saying that I think it would be mandatory, but I would strongly suggest the use of helmets, particularly for young children who are the cyclists and have them CSA approved. I realize it is not within the privy of the Minister to imp lement this within his- but would he lobby on behalf of his Government to the various manufacturers to make sure that this type of eq uipment is brought up-to-date and so we do not lose another child and we do not have another fatality and if we do, maybe we can prevent at least some, or curtail some of the injuries. Mr.

Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, we will take note of the comments made by the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mand rake). I would anticipate that possibly some of these things will certainly be add ressed and the report when it comes forward . If not that, we will take and use part of this as our overview of the cycling industry. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, you told me I did not have a point of order. I thought that safety comes under No. (

c) in Driver and Vehicle Licensing and, if that is not the case, then I wish the Chairman would make himself aware before he rules that I did not have. In any event, if we are going to talk about bicycle safety under Planning and Desig n, I am prepared to do that. Mr. Chairman: We have allowed a good deal of latitude for the critics to bring in some information on different areas, and I think the Minister had the information available. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, maybe I could clarify that. No rmally I believe it would be under the Driver and Ve hicle Licens ing, Safety aspect of it.

However, because the study was commissioned, I understand that in the report because it was part of the planning aspect of it, they had put in the report � under this category. So there has been some confusion , over that. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, just on the report, I believe that there was a report that was done for the Highw ay Traffic Safety Com mittee that was in place a few years ago that reported to the Minister of Highways and Transportation, the Minister responsible for MP IC, the Attorney General and perhaps other Ministers.

At that time, there was a subcommittee set up of that ministerial Traffic Sa fety Co mmittee that had made recommendations on bicycle safety. Is the Minister aware of that? I believe the Registrar of Motor Vehicles was sitting on that committee as wel l, Dan Coyle. I wonder if that committee is still operating, whether in fact the Minister has seen those recommenda tions. * (15 40) Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I am informed that those people who were sitting on that committee are the same ones who have been involved in doing the � study on cycling on this report that is being brought forward. Mr.

Plohman: Perhaps I will wait, Mr. Chairman, until the Registrar of Motor Vehicles is here to comment more on what was done at that time because I believe there was a study that was completed and it was to the Minister already in 1986-or 19 87, I believe, for action. I just wonder whether we are doing more studies on something that already had reached the recommendation stage. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I am informed that part of the reason why this is under the planning aspect of it, the part of the study we have been looking at, the physical aspect of it in terms of bicycle paths, the planning of highways to accommodate this so-ho w should I explain this-tha t this was the same group but because of the planning that is involved and how we do the physical aspect of it is why it ende d up in 1309

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 here. But the same people who basically were involved in the other committee that you made reference to which I do not know of- basically have been the ones who have been doing this study here as advisers. Mr. Plohman: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, obviously it would have to come from ideas on safety, to the physical accommoda tions for bicycles and whether they are sufficient at the present time or whether there has to be change in the desig n, the way we think about the operation of bicycles, whether the y have their own paths, as the Minister said , or whether they are operating on our roads throughout the province, or in cities and towns, and so on. So I can see the link and I think it is a good step if the planning people are involved in following through.

I would be interested though in getting the information from the Minister as to whether he has followed up on that initial study and has put in place any provisions or is planning to put in place any provisions to enhance bicycle safety at the present time, or is he waiting now for this subsequent report before any action is taken? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I would have to indicate that I am not aware of the previous study.

I am waiting for the report of what will come forward now, which will be basically I believe addressing certainly the safety aspect of it, as well as the physical part, because the safety thing, especially in cycling, is a very, and rightfully so, emo tional issue at the present time. A lot of people are concerned about it. But as far as any physical undertaking or direction, I do not think I would be in a position to give direction as to what we would be doing until I have that completed study presented to myself within the next, as I understand, six to eig ht weeks.

Certainly at that time I anticipate there wou ld be various options and recommendations that would be looked at and certainly, if at all feasible, we would want to address those that we can, based on the financial limitations. If one of the recommenda tions was to take and have paved should ers on every road to accommoda te bicycles, of course that would not be possible to undertake, but certainly I anticipate there are certain aspects of recommenda tions that would come forward that we could imp lement with a reasonable a amount of expendi ture.

So I am talking in a vacuum because I do not have any of these things. Certainly when they come forward I am prepar ed to take a look at imp lementing whatever is feasible to be do ne. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, I had just written a letter within the last month or so to the Minister, I believe, or copied him. It was to the I think-a nd I have to check on my files, I do not have it with me- Cycling Association of Manitoba or some thing. They have been pushing bicycle safety and they want mee tings with the Minister and so on.

They referenced this study that had been completed a couple of years ago that they understood had gone to the Minister. I am surprised then that the Minister said that he never heard of that study, because I believe there was a study that was completed and had gone to the Minister. I am just wonder ing if he could just give us the status of that study, whether it is forming the basis for the work that is being done now; whether his officials have reviewed it and made any recommenda tions; and whether in fact he could provide us with a copy of that study and its status? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I have to indicate that I am not aware of this study. I am informed that possibly the Registrar has that report. I will try and avail myself of that report and see whether copies can be made available. It has not been drawn to my attention, and I will check it out. Certainly if we do have a report of that nature, I will make it available to the Critics. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for that. I am prepared to see us move on to other areas of the department. Mr. Chairman: Item 3.(a )( 1) Salar ies and Wages , $1, 824,500- pass; 3. (a)

(2) Other Expenditu res, $336,500- pass; 3.(

b) Land Surveys, 3.(b)( 1) Salaries and Wages, $1, 25 1, 200- pass. 3.( b)(2 ), Other Expenditures $249 ,500- pass. Reso lution No. 7 4: RESOL VED tha t there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,66 1,700 for Highways and Transportation, Planning and Design and Land Surveys, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1990- pass. Item 4. Engi neering and Technical Services, $1 1 ,288,0 00. Provides program management and specialized functional support services to departmental programs.

Provides for the operation and maintenance of northern airports and a ferry service in northern Manitoba for freight, passenger and vehicle service. Operates the Manitoba Government Air Service, installs and ma intains commu nications sys tems for governmental departments and agencies. Item 4.(

a) Management Services, 4.(a)( 1), Salaries, $12 2, 100- pass. Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): I just have some questions here dealing with Northern Airports. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, again on a point of order. We will be down to that in about three lines. Mr. Herold Driedger: Oh, I am sorry. I was watching how you were moving around in the

section before. I am sorry. If that is how it is going to be, why, I have no problem with that. Mr. Chairman: I am sorry. I cannot hear you. Mr. Herold Driedger: I was simply following along by the previous lack of order, as opposed to the orderly fashion we are now being asked to proceed in. So consequently since that is where I wish to ask my question and we are not at that point, I have no problem with passing this on a line-by-line basis. Mr. Chairman: Does the item pass? 1310

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 Mr. Herold Driedger: Which line are we on now before I say pass? *

(1550) Mr. Chairman: That is 4.(a)(

I) Salaries, $12 2, 100- pass; 4.(a)

(2) Other Expendi tures, $1 8,7 00 - pass; 4.(

b) Mechanical Equipment Services, 4.(b)

(1) Salaries and Wages, $8,353,4 00- pass; 4.( b)

(2) Other Expenditures $10 ,857,6 00- pass; 4.(b)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appr opr iations, $2 1 ,977,0 00 - pass; 4.(

c) Ware house Stores: 4. (c)( 1) Sal aries and Wages , $429, 700- pass. 4.

(2) Other Expenditures, $1 38,900-the Memb er for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: I have just one question, Mr. Chairman, on this. Do we still have warehouse stores in all of the districts? In which ones are they now? Mr. Albert Driedger: We have storage spaces in the same places where we used to have them before, storage facilities in Winnipeg , Brandon, Dauphin, Swan River, The Pas, and Beause jour. Mr. Plohman: Are there any plans by the department to consolidate any of those at the present time? Mr. Albert Driedger: No. Mr. Chairman: 4.

(2) Other Expendi tures, $1 38,900- pass; 4.(c)

(3) Purchases, $6, 700 ,000- pass; 4.(c)

(4) Less: Recov erable from Other App ropr iatio ns, $6, 700,000- pass. 4.(

d) Northern Airports: 4.(d)

(1) Salaries and Wages, $2,795,500-the Mem ber for Niakwa. Mr. Herold Driedger: I have no questions on Salaries and Wages. Mr. Ch airman: Item 4.(d)

(1) Salar ies and Wages, $2,795,5 00- pass. 4.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures, $1 ,445,0 00- Tte Member for Niakwa. Mr. Herold Driedger: I have a few questions in this

section dealing largely with some of the types of other expendi tures. I am particularly referring to the airport at Berens River. I understand that it was necessary to build a chain-link fence around this airport. My information indicates that this was to prevent horses from straying on to the runway. Could the Minister comment with respect to whether this a very serious problem at that point or at that particular airport? Mr. Albert Driedger: The Mem ber is correct. There was a problem with horses getting onto the runway.

It was a serious problem because these animals do not necessarily always adhere to the traffic regulations that go on at an airport. However, it was fenced off and the situation I understand has been corrected. There are no further problems there. 1311 Mr. Herold Driedger: Are there any other airports in these remote locations that suf fer similar kind of problems with respect to animals crossing runways? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, we do not have any other problems related to livestock per se. I gue ss the odd mo ose trots across one of these runways from time to time.

However, that is not a matter of major concern at this stage of the game. However, we do have some problems with where we have airports close to communities and where we do not have good security that people move across the runways and that is a matter of concern and we are certainly trying to add ress that. (Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Herold Driedger: The Minister references people and we are talking remote areas. I am sure people normally are able to hear airplanes when they are approaching but perhaps I am wrong in giving it in this-ho w severe a problem is this?

I just became aware of the fact that there might have been a problem when I heard about the fence being built around the airport at Berens River just to keep out horses. I have spent some time in the North and I have spent some time waiting for airplanes at these airports and actually it is-t hey are in the middle of, some of them, fairly remote, very limited services available at the airport terminal or at the building which serves as the airport terminal, sometimes basically not manned at all. I guess what I am looking for is an indication from the Minister as to how sig nifi cant the proble m actually is.

I understand that with the horses it could have been quite significant because he does talk about livestock around communities that may end up straying, but what is the actual problem with people doing the same thing? I mean , how severe is the security problem? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairman, there is a matter of concern, I do not know whether a major concern, but I have to indicate, for exam ple, we have cases where vehicles are on the runways, unauthorized vehicles, so we have an ongoing program where we are going to continue the fencing program to create that kind of security.

Each airport is a little differe nt, depending on the location, as I indicated before, close to the community or the kind of security that we have and the amount of activity that takes place in the airport. We have a sheet here that shows the amount of flights that go in and out of the various airports. There is heavy activity on, others there is very limited activity on, so we are mo nitoring these things in terms of the security aspect of it and I believe we have an ongoing fencing program that we have in place.

So it is not something that is a burning issue, but certainly we are concerned about that aspect of it. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): The Member for Niakwa, did you have another question? Mr. Herold Driedger: Just briefly. You were referring that you have an ongoing program with fencing and with making these airports secure. There was, I guess, last year, the year before, some concern about the Gods River airport because it was at one time a private

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 airport, no w having been handed over to the Gods River Band . Is this within the purview of Hig hways and Transportation as it stands now, or is this still an airport that is under separ ate jurisdiction? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairman, the airport at Gods River Narrows still belongs to the band. Mr.

Herold Driedger: What role does Hig hways and Transportation play in either determining the safety of this airport, referencing again the previous comments that you made, perhaps not so much if we are talking now about vehicles on the road but now let us take a look at from the position of aircraft using that airport. Do you license it? Have you any role in maintaining it? Do you have any role in pr oviding security for it? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairman, we have no jurisdiction at that airport at all. It is strictly their jurisdiction.

We have no involvement there other than an option that to some time in the future, I assume, if the Government so desires to enter into an agreement with the people from that reserve. Mr. Mandr ake: There are several questions: one for the northern airport, and that is Tadoule Lake. That airport, last year, if my memor y serves me right, there was apparently a lawsuit being lodged against the provincial Government. Has this been settled, and if it has been settled, what was the problem? If he does not have the information today, could he table that information for both critics? * (16 00) Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Acting Chairman, it is my understanding that the contractor who was involved in the construction of the airport, there was some difficulty and he is in the process of suing the provi ncial Government. Because it is before the courts, I do not intend to give any further information on it. Mr. Mandrake: Mr. Acting Chairperson, in your Air Services, I have several questions, and I will then bow to the Mem ber for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: I just wanted to get back to God's Lake Airport for a moment. The Minister said that he has no responsibility for it.

Of course a couple of years ago the airport was purchased for the band along with the old Ruminski Lod ge. I bel ieve there was some commitment to upgrade that airstrip to meet certain standards. There has been some recent controversy about it, I believe, that I heard in the press from the chief there. I also am aware that recently there was a disturbance there and the RCMP had flown up and they could not land because there were no lights on the strip and they had to leave. I guess I am wonde ring what the Government's plans are to upgrade that airstrip at the present time, at least a minimal upgrading.

I know there was a problem all the time with that airstrip because Ruminski who used to own it constantly came forward and said, look, we need some help to upgrade this strip because it is low 1312 and it is unsafe and so on. So now that it has been turned over and there was some agreement, either formal or informal -I am not sure, the Minister would probably know-to upgrade it. Is there a plan to upgrade that airstrip? Is it planned for next year? Is it being done now, or is it not even being considered. I know the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey) was asked about it recently as well and said there is a plan to do this work. Is it under his budge t or is it under this budget? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairman, first of all, let me add ress the comment that was made halfway through the Member's statement or question regarding the latest issue at Gods River Airport-n ot God's Lake- wher e there were some prob lems with youngsters shooting windows out of schools, et cetera, and the RCMP had indicated that they could not land, or the chief had indicated that the RCMP could not land.

I would have to indicate that the community has been supplied with flare pots. However, apparently they could not find them or whatever the case may be. So that created a bit of a problem there. I would like to indicate now in the more general basis that there is an agreement that was struck with the band or with the reserve initially when the purchase was made by the federal and provincial Government that at a time when Government saw fit that they could then enter into an agreement and buy the airport for a dollar. We have made that offer.

In fact, we have been negotiating with the chief and his council over a period of time and we have not reached an agreement at this stage of the game in terms of maintenance, et cetera. So we are still negotiating at the present time. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Acting Chairman, I understand, think, from what the Minister said, that the purchase price is not at issue here in terms of negotiation, it is the terms of upgrading and maintenance later on being negotiated at the present time. Is that correct? Mr. Albert Driedger: I would like to maybe correct that.

The upgrading and the maintenance of the airport, if we would take it over, is not the issue here. The issue is basically the cost of the maintenance which the band has supposed ly undertaken from the time that they bought the airport until now that it is under negotiation and the compensation for various things that happened in between times. Mr. Plohman: Ok ay, Mr.

Acting Chairman, then we are getting back into the evacuation of the people from Gods River a couple of years ago and the cost that they incurred in evacuating and then bringing in supplies on ice, keep ing an ice strip, too, and so on, all of these things that were surrounding it. That has not been settled as yet? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairman, we had, at one stage of the game, almost reached agreement and then the thing fell apart again. We then renegotiated, had almost reached agreement, and it has sort of fallen apart again. We are in a negotiating mode right now.

I do not know whether we want to get into the details of it.

Tuesday, September 26, 1989 If the Mem ber wants, I am prepared to sit down with him and explain exactly the circumstances; not that it is a confidential thing, it just has been a very difficult emo tional thing for some people involved at this stage of the game and we are still trying. Mr. Plohman: I will not pursue that any further now. I know it is very sensitive, I recall being involved in that old issue before.

In terms of the upgrading, is the Minister saying that they will not do any upgrading until this is settled , in other words, until the department owns that airstrip before any upgrading and major work will be done there? Mr. Albert Driedg er: Th at is rig ht. We have no intentions of putting any mone y into that until we have an ag reement whereby we take over the airport, because once we put mone y into it then we are responsible.

If we are going to be responsible, then we want to deal with it in such a manner as we prescribe through the department and through the regulations that are there if we feel there is another way to do it. Mr. Plohman: As long as the band is insisting that these other items be settled as part of the package, then there will be a delay in any imp rovements to that airstrip, un til an overall settlement can be negotiated? Mr. Albert Driedger: That is correct. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): Item 4.(d)- pass; (

e) Marine Services:

(1) Salaries and wages, $565, 100- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures, $405,900- pass. (

f) Materials and Resea rch:

(1) Salaries and Wages, $1 ,337,300- the Honourable Mem ber for Assiniboia. Mr. Mandr ake: Thank you very much, Mr. Acting Chairman. I have before me a letter written by a

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-37
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 37.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	69f3fc4a86e46a9b4e6a509268501b46e49498e6

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