Manitoba Hansard — 23 August 1988 (Sitting 21, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-21

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

G-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 21 - 1:30 p.m., TUESDAY, AUGUST 23, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATlVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTI TU ENCY ALCOCK, Reg Osborne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHTON, Sieve Thompson BURRELL, Parker Swan River CARR, Jam88 Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CHARLES, Gwen Sel kir k CHEEMA , Gulzar Kildonan CHORNOPYSKI, William Burrows CONNERY, Edward Hon. · Portage la Prairie COWAN, Jay Churchill CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Ru!lseli DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNEY, James Hon. Ar thur DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, L.

Niakwa DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. Aiel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EYANS, Laurie Fort Garry EYANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen Hon. Vir den GAUDRY, Nail St. Boniface GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Ell ice HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWER, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. lnkster MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANDRAKE, Ed As8iriiboia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon.

Brandon West MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Spri ngfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, lva Stur geon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBER AL PC LIB ERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIB ERAL PC LIBER AL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIB ERAL LIBERAL NDP LIB ERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBE RAL PC NDP PC PC PC LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, August 23, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Community Services): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the Department of Community Services. I would also like to table the Supple mentary Information for Legislative Review for the Manitoba Employment Services and Economic Security Department. .,, Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement.

I rise today to make two announcements concerning Government funding for wife abuse services. First, 1988-89 funding for these services will be 43.8 percent higher than in 1987-88 . That funding totals almost $2 million this year. Second, I wish to advise the House that I met today with the Manitoba Committee on Wife Abuse to inform them that the Government will end its financial support to this agency as of September 30, 1988. Concerning the first announcement, Mr. Speaker , we are very pleased with the plans for wife abuse services that are being developed for the current fiscal year.

Not only is this Government increasing funding substant ially, but services throughout the province will be placed on a stronger footing and a more stable funding base. The first major component is to provide equitable funding for the non-residential services operated by .,, the five crisis shelters : Aurora House in The Pas, NorWin House in Thompson , Westman Shelter in Brandon, Osborne House in Winnipeg and lkwe Widdjiitewin, a new Native shelter in Winnipeg. *

(1335) Funding to thes e shelters will more than double this year. They will receive $392,000 in 1988-89, up from $165,400 in 1987-88. At the same time , their fundings are being placed on a stable base. This will result in equity in staff salari es among shelters and strengthen services for clients and commun ities . We have also made special provision for the conditions that must be taken into account in operating services in the North. The second major component of the 1988-89 plans call for substant ial increa ses in support for crisis services in rural and northern Manitoba.

The 14 agencies providing these services will have their funds incr eased 43 percent for a total of $437,100 .00. 676 Committees and crisis centres will receive increased funding. This will strengthen the critical services that these groups offer and will improve their ability to meet the needs of their communities. These allocations also include a special provision of $24,800 for transitional housing operated by the Thompson Crisis Centre . This is the first time the centre has received such assistance, which will provide medium-term housing for abused women until they can find independent accommodation .

Satellite housing, which is short-term accommodation for abused women and their children , will be given increased grants to provide the same funding among the six satellites and equity in salaries between staff of sate llites and those working in shelters . A third major component is increased support for services in Winnipeg. Funds will be given to a wide variety of services and client groups : Native women, immigrant women, abused women with chemical dependency, the 24-hour province-wide crisis line, and second-stage housing .

Besides these crisis services for abused women, funds will also go to a Winnipeg treatment group for abusers . Finally, we have provided an increase in funds for the two Women's Resource Centres in Winnipeg. We are confident that these initiatives will ensure much greater stability for these essential services for abused women and their children. With respect to the Manitoba Committee on Wife Abuse, I want to emphasize that my depa rtment will assume the projected costs associated with the winding down of the committee.

In addition, the accumul ated deficit of the Manitoba Committee on Wife Abuse , amounting to $40,000, will be absorbed by my department . The decision to cease funding to the Manitoba Committee on Wife Abuse arises from a need to reduce dupl ication of services and channel resources directly to agencies providing service s to abused women. I would like to point out that the Manitob a Committ ee on Wife Abuse can take pride in contributing to the development of a network of services now available to abused women. Their past record of accomplishment on behalf of abused women is an important one.

Within Government, the fully operational responsibility centre , Family Dispute Services , has been developed . It coordinates programs working closely with agencies and local groups. There are now 23 agencies actively providing wife abuse services throughout the province. The end result is that the roles and respons ibilities formerly played by the Manitoba Committee on Wife Abuse are now an integral part of the network of community-based agencies. These include crisis intervention, training , public education and advocacy.

At this time, I would like to table the final report of the Review of the Manitoba Committee on Wife Abuse.

TUesday, Augusf 23, 1988 This Government re m ains firmly committed to sup porting wife abuse services as sh own by our pr ogram announcem ents tod ay. As part of our commitment, we will ensur e that the services now operated by the Manitoba Committee on Wife Abuse will be continued with minimum disruption to the community. In

summary, we have acted decisively and re sponsibly to reduce dupli cation of services available for abused women. We have also acted resp onsibly with respect to the provincial network of wife abuse services by moving to stabilize their funding and introduce equ ity into the funding of services. * ( 13 40) Finally, wife abuse services are being enhanced thr ough the significant incr eases in sup por t we have committed for this fiscal year. Ma. Avis Gray (E IIice): We on this side of the House would certa inly lik e to commend the Min ister of Community Services (Mr s.

Oleson) and the Government for their proactive and prog ressive steps regard ing stable funding for wife abuse shelters in the province. We certa inly applaud the efforts of this Govern ment regarding better funding because we know that cert ainly difficult ies with family dis pute and women all across the Province of Manitoba, the difficulties have been many in the last few years. Cer tainly it is long overdue and we do commend this Government for their efforts.

With respect to the deci sion by this Gove rnment to no longer fund the Manitoba Council on Wife Abuse, the concern that this side of the House has in regard to that is that-1 do not know whether the Minister is aware of it.

Cer tainly, in many lengthy discussi ons with many of the wife abuse shelters across the provi nce The Pas, Stelnbach, some of the shelters in Winnipeg it has been made very loud and clear to us that in fact there Is a great necessity for some type of umbrella organization other than Government that can provide a clear advocacy role for the shelters across the Province of Manitoba, and to say that we are red ucing dupl ication and now that training and crisis intervent ion and educa tion is part of each centre, I have some difficulty with th at concept .

I would encou rage the Min ister of Community Services (Mr s. Oleson) to further discuss with the var ious shelters across the Province of Manitoba the idea of an umbrella organization, an advocacy group that can deal with tra ining and public ed ucation and the issues that the se par ticular centres have. We will look forward to more information and possibly we hope that the Minister of Community Services will listen to these groups.

We have some concerns that if there is not an umbrella organization or advocacy that in fact rather than better services dec entralizing into the community and out Into the province, you end up having frag mentation and compe tition among the groups in the shelters. Thank you. Ma. Judy Waaylycia-Leia (St. Johns): I would like to also thank the Minister of Community Ser vices (Mr s. 677 Oieson) for pro viding that statement and tabling the re por t on the Manitoba Committee on Wife Abuse. lt is good to see finally some detail on a particular policy area in the Depar tment of Community Services.

We anticipate and hope that this is a sign of things to come and that there will be detai led state ments of all major policy areas in the Department of Community Services, particularly in those areas where Manitoba has been lagging behind and losing its very strong leader ship position. Let me say at the outset that I am pleased to see that the Minister of Community Services (Mr s.

Oleson) has announced today almost the same incr ease that was propos ed in the Budg et of the former NDP administra tion, but I think it is only imperative that we point out that there is a shortf all in the increase that was pr oposed pre viously by my colleague, now the Member for Logan (Ms. Hemphill), and indeed the entir e NDP administra tion, for prop osing a major incr ease of well over 43 point whatever percent it is. lt was that Budget that Mem bers opposite defea ted . I am pleased to see that the y are now having se cond thoughts about the importance of spending in those major social policy areas.

Let me say, in specific terms, that on the basis of not the Detailed Supple mentary Es timates but on the Main Es timates that were tabled with the Budget with the Minister of Finance's (Mr . Manness) speech some eight, nine days ago, in fact ther e was a shortfall of, in my calculations, $115 ,700 to external agencies. We are very concerned at this end of the House about what that red uction actually means.

My concer n, more specifical ly, relates to, first, the fact that if the Minister, in her wisdom and based on her findings around the Manitoba Committee on Wife Abuse, has found that organization should no longer be funded, it is our very strong opinion that ther e needs to be fund ing for some similar group to pull together the . concerns and needs and aspira tions of women working in the field of shelters. * (13 45) Second ly, the Mini ster has announc ed toda y incr eased funding for the two exist ing Women's Resource Centr es. There is clearly a need for more resource cent res.

Ther e is clearly a need to live up to the commitments of NDP Mem bers, when we were in Gove rnment, to move in the dir ec tion of a resou rce cen tr e in northern Manitoba, a resou rce centre among franc ophone female population of the pr ovince and other areas of need . Let me say, finally, and I will try to wind up my remar ks-this is a very important policy area for us and so I would like to just take a moment longer that there are some other major concerns relat ing to the issue of Family Dispute Services and battered women that the Minister has not addr essed .

She has not add ressed the fact that this Government, this Minister made no rep res entation to the fed eral Government about rec eiving its fair share of the $40 million four-year fed eral init iativ es for incr eased resources for existing she lters and new shelters right across the country.

Tuesday, August 23, 1988 That proposal, if we calculated it out, would amount to about two new spaces per shelter in Manitoba. That is a ridiculously small amount. lt is a poor initiative on the part of the federal Gove rnment and we would hope that this Govern ment, that this Minister would be maintaining Manitoba's leader ship posit ion in the area and ensuring that major initiatives occur right across this countr y and that we are able to work together cooperatively , fed erally -provincially, to ensure that we meet the very, very gr owing needs and demands in this area.

Finally, let me say that there was an announcement with respect to Osborne House. I would hope that we will hear, in the very near future, either from the Minister of Community Services (Mr s. Oleson) or the Minister respon sible for Housing (Mr . Ducharme) about their response to the proposal submitted by Osborne House. Given the fact that it has been well over four weeks since this Gove rnment has re sponde d to the proposals of Osborne House, we anxiously await some immediate announcement and further detai ls on that important � issue. INTRODUCT ION OF BILLS Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition) introduc ed , by leave, Bill No. 19 ,

An Act to Protect the Health of Non-smokers;

Loi sur la protection de la sante des non-fumeur s. ORA L QUEST ION PERIOD Textbook Grant Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Education (Mr . Derkach). On January 15 , 19 88, the former Ed ucation Minister of the NDP Government announced that there would be a red uction in the per -pupil textbook gr ant from $40 down to $35 per pupil. Can the Minister inform the Ho use if this polic y has cont inued unde r his administra tion? � *

(1350) Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I thank the Leader of the Op position for that ques tion. As is known, when this Government took office, we were we ll into the fiscal school year. Therefore, a lot of work tha t had been started by the former administra tion was already in place. Therefore, it was very difficult for any administra tion taking office at that time to reverse the decision to red uce the text book grant. I have to indicate that it is not the dir ection that this Government wants to go in terms of re ducing the resource materials to students.

Therefore, we are going to take another look at that in the next fiscal year. However , for this year, that policy will continue and will be in place. Mrs. Carstairs: But I am sure that the Minister of Education (Mr . Derkach) is aware that ther e are two 678 times in the school year when text books are pur chased : Septem ber, primari ly, and January for semestered sch ools. Can the Minister not inform the school divisions that the y will be given additional funding for text books, in that his department in one subject alone, Grade 8 Social Studies, is reco mmending a textbook at $34.95 per text? Mr.

Derkach: The Leader of the Op position is correct that ther e are two times in the year when text books are ordered , but I have to advise the Leader that ther e is only one time during the year when a budget is struck. Ther efore, that makes somewhat of a difference. I can indicate to the Leader of the Oppo sition that we have taken a very serious look at this. The money that was taken from the text book grant was allocated to a different way of deliv eri ng services to schools in Manitoba and we are going to abide by that particu lar ap proach this year.

I understand the cost implications that school divisions are under when the y go to buy text books that are $34 and even more. However, for this year, the policy will remain and we are going to change that in terms of allocating that extra $5 that was taken away from school divisions for text books in the next fiscal year. Mrs. Carstairs: With a supplemen tary question to the Minister of Educ ation (Mr . Derkach ): Literacy will not be add ressed by st udie s. Literacy will be add ressed by pr oviding childr en with te xtbook materials appropria te to their gr ade level.

Can this Minister tell this House what initiative he will provide for the academic school year 19 88-89, which will begin in Septem ber, in order to ensur e th at school divisions who have reported to me will not have to go on a two-child -per-textbook system. Mr. Derkach: I have to advise the Leader of the Op position (Mr s. Carstairs) that we have been in touch with all the school divisions in the province. We have talked about the fact that ther e has been a red uction in the text book grant. School divisions struck their budget knowing that they would have a $5 decrease per pupil.

Therefore, there is not going to be any harmful effect to students who are entering the school year in 19 88-89. However, we understan d the cost implications that is going to have on school divisions. We are going to ens ur e that in the following year we add ress that problem so that it is not a hardship on school divisions across this provi nce. Universities Funding Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a new question to the Minister of Educa tion (Mr . Derkach), Saturda y Night Magazine in the September 19 88 issue has an

article which focuses on the lack of quality of Canada's univer sities. Regr ett ably, in that article, the University of Manitoba is cited as one of the univer sities which is unable to meet the quality level req uired of our universitie s in this countr y. Much poorer

Tuesday, August 23, 1988 provinces than this, New Brunswick and Newfoundland, for example, have given 6. 7 percent and 6 percent to our universities for this fisc al year. Can this Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) explain how he is going to enhance the quality of education in Manitoba in that he is not prepared to provide adequate funding? *

(1355) Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I think quality of education is probably one of the key areas that this Government has focused on in terms of providing education to Manitobans, whether it is at the public school system or at the univers ity level. I am very familiar with the

article that the Leader of the Opposition refers to, whereby Manitoba was cited as one of the five universities which lacked in many of the areas that the author had related to. Howeve r, if you take a look at the

article and try to specify what Manitoba universities lack in, you are not going to be able to find the specific areas because they are not related to in that article. I have to tell you that, when a Government takes office in May when budgets have already been struck, you cannot just throw a pile of money at universities and say, here is your money for this year. We are incr easing it by 50 percent or whatever, and use it at your discretion. I think we have to approach funding to universities, to schools , to all educational institutions in a rational and prudent way, in a responsible way.

This Leader of the Opposition has, over the past few days, through Budge t Debate, through her questions in the House, accused th is Government of spending too much money. Now she is telling us to spend more without any plan or without any responsibility . That is not a prudent approach , and I tell you that this Government is going to spend the money in terms of focusing it on the educational needs of this province . University Libraries Funding Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition ): With a supplementary question to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) , 3.3 percent will not do it. The

article did indeed indi cate one serious lack affecting almost all Canadian universities, and that is the lack of adequate funding for libraries. It indicated that 1.5 percen t of budge ts, on an average, in universities were spent on libraries . What specific programs will this Government undertake to ensure adequate library funding, or will it only provide money for bricks and mortar but not for brains? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): It is strange that the Leader of the Opposition gets a little issue and tries to focus on it as being the all-important issue.

There are many imp ortant issues with regard to education. We know that in the past, universities, public schools, independent schools , all forms of education have suffered because there has not been perhaps the amount of funding that should have been addressed. 679 We cannot keep throwing money in an indis criminate way at problems that are identified . There has to be a rational approach , and I do not think three months in Governmen t can be a sufficient amount of time to put a sufficient plan into motion.

But I assure the Leader of the Opposition that in the next year we will be acting in a responsible way to ensure that there is adequ ate funding given not only to universities but libraries and post-secondary institut ions of all nature. Mrs. Carstairs: With a final supplementary to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) : This is not the first time in this House I have addressed the need for library funding in education. The last Government did not listen. Will this Government assure the House through the Min ister of Education (Mr.

Derkach) that the nursing libra ry, the architecture library , the agricultu re library, the law library, the engineering library, will be brought to a standard to which accreditation can be met? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speak er, this is not a new problem " that the Leader of the Opposition raises at this time. We had raised this problem many times when we were in Opposition as well, but I think it is somewhat foolish to expect that in three months we will have the answers to all of these questions . The former Government promised a library to Red River Community College .

We have not seen that library yet and there is a need there. There is not just a need at the University of Manitoba , or the Brandon University, or the University of Winnipeg. We have needs throughout the province and they cannot be addressed at once . We have to have a plan in place, and tha t plan will be put in place over the next year. *

(1400) Environmental Round Table Participan ts Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Connery). We are ind eed all very proud of the fact that the former Minister of the Environment chaired a nati onal task force dealing with the econo my of the environment and we were pleased, and stated so, that the Speech from the Throne recom mended and stated that they will keep the former Government's commitment to have a round table in this province . Could the Minister of the Environment please inform Manit obans and this House who are the members of the round table and will he table the

part icipants in this House? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. Speaker, the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) will be making that announcement and he will be ready very shortly to make the announcement, and the members of that round tab le. Mr. Doer: Given the fact that September is the deadline for all Governments who have accepted the establishment of this round table, can the Minister advise us whether he has met any of the environmental

TUesda� August 23, 1988 groups that would be affected by this very important round table? Mr. Connery: I do not believe any environmental group will be affected . The round tables are going to enhance our environmental situation in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I have a mee ting set for Sept ember 7 with the Manitoba Environment Council. We will be addr es sing them. We will be prese nting concerns to them and we will be work ing very hard . We are going to be mee ting. But during the summer, it is very difficult to get people all togeth er.

Come the fall, we will be mee ting with all the appropriate groups, and I am looking forward to meeting with them and to the challenge tha t they will be pres enting back to our Government. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, regre ttably, the Minister of Environment (Mr . Connery) does not even understand the round table that he is res ponsible for. The round table report that was accepted by all Ministers of the Env ironment in this countr y stated that representatives from the envir onment groups, ind ustry groups, Government gr oups will be together on a round table.

Yet, the Minister of the Environment says he does not need to meet with them. Mr. Speaker: Ord er , ple ase; ord er, pl ease. The Honour able Govern ment House Leader. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr . Speaker, on a point of order , I would like to ask you to consider reminding the Honourable Mem ber for Concord ia (Mr . Doer), the Leader of the New Democratic Party, that Question Period is not a time for making speeches. This is a time for asking ques tions. Mr.

Speaker: The Honour able Mem ber does not have a point of order, but I would like to rem ind all Honourable Mem bers that a supple mentar y question does not need a pream ble. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, my ques tion is to the Minister of the Environment (Mr . Connery). Why has he not met with any of the affected environme ntal groups in this pr ovince so that he can give advice to the Fi rst Minister (Mr . Filmon) on the type of represen tation that is recommen ded In the task force report that all provinces and all Ministers of the Environment have accepted in this countr y? Mr.

Connery: If the Honourable Member had have done his homework, he would know that ther e are only two pr ovinces at this point who have round tables in place. The other provinc es are all work ing on them. The Government of Canada has not yet announced its round table. We are very concerned about the environment. lt is very interesting that I ran across an environmental report. lt is a national report card and it is from the Ca nadian Natur e Federa tion. In 19 85 it sai d, environmentally in programs and so fort h, Ontario was No. 1, Alberta was No. 2, Saskatche wan was No. 3 and gue ss where Manitoba was? No. 4?

No, not No. 4. Tenth. We were the last province environmental ly. At the same time, in 19 87, the report card was absolutely ide ntical. lt is not a lot of fun star ting off In last place. 880 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Connery: As a Minister and as a department, we have inherited last place. I am looking forward- Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase; order , please. May I also rem ind Honourable Members that answers to questions should be brief. The Honourable Mem ber for Concord ia (Mr . Doer), with a final supplement ary. Mr. Doer: That is why, Mr.

Speaker, we brought in one of the best Environ ment Acts in 19 87 tha t was proclaimed on April 1 this year,

an Act that many Mem bers oppo site were oppo sed to, and many members at City Council, I should point out, were opposed to. That is why we proclaimed that Act on April 1, 19 88. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order , ple ase. Mr. Doer : My qu es tion is to the Minister of the Environment, Mr. Sp eaker . Why has he not met any environmental groups to establish this round table which comes in place in eight days? Why has he not met with any environmental groups in this province? He is derelict in his duti es. Mr. Speaker: Order , ple ase; order , ple ase.

The Hono urable Member's qu es tion is repeat ing in substance a question which was previously asked. Could the Ho nourable Mem ber kindly rephrase his question? Mr. Doer: Will he meet with the environmental groups of this province prior to the Fi rst Minister (Mr . Filmon) announcing the round table? Mr. Connery: Mr. Sp eaker , when you are in last place, I can see the sensitivity of the Honourable Member. They are bringing forth issues now that they were afraid to bring forth. They did not have the political will.

Now the y are raising these ques tions when the y have a Gover nment in power th at has the political will and the ability to do it. All groups will be met with in due time, and the Fi rst Minister (Mr . Filmon) will be making that announcement. lt is the prerogative of the First Minister to announce the round tables and he will do that. Community Colleges Teaching Positions Mrs. lva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education (Mr . Derka ch).

In this age of necessity for both parents working and with the increase in the number of single-parent families, there are many, many young mothers who are tr ying to maintain a home and at the same time hold a part time position in the workp lace. I can sympathize, because for several years I was fortunate enough to have a flexible teach ing assignment. There are several edu cators at Red River Community College who are tryi ng to organize their lives before school begins to arrange for day cares, etc.

I ask the Minister: Do you unde rstand the concept of half-time tea ching and what is your position on part-time tea ching assignments?

Tuesday, August 23, 1988 Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): Of course, Mr. Sp eaker, I unders tand the implications that are involved in part-time tea ching positions, and I have nothing but admiration for those mothers who are trying to raise a family and yet tr ying to put food on the table at the same time. I have a lot of respect and admir ation for those people, and we can do nothing but encourage those types of people to get part-time employment in our institutions. Mrs. Yeo: Mr. Speaker, my ques tion again is to the Minister of Educa tion.

Ha s the Minister received a request to authorize app roval of staffing arrangements at Red River Community College? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Sp eaker, perhaps the Mem ber can be more specific in terms of her ques tion. I receive staffing authorizations for not only Red River Community College but for all the community colleges in the pro vince. So perhaps the Mem ber could be more specific with reg ard to her ques tion. * (1 410 ) Mrs. Yeo: Does the Minister of Education (Mr . Derkach) appreciate the critical shortage of trai ned nurses in northern Manitoba?

Is he also aware tha t th ree instructors hired by Red River Community College to teach in the northern nursing program have not received ministerial app rovement for their position? Mr. Speaker: Order , ple ase. The Gove rnment House Leader (Mr . McC rae). Hon. Jam .. McCrae (Government House Leader): The first part of the Honour able Mem ber's ques tion seeks an opinion and the se cond part attempts to put forward information asking for confirmation. Perhaps the Honourable Mem ber would reflect on that and reph rase her ques tion. Mr. Speaker: Would the Honourable Mem ber kindly reph rase her ques tion? Mra.

Yeo: Thank you, Mr . Sp eaker . Will the Minister of Ed ucation (Mr . Derk ach) authorize the par t-time positions that the northern instructors are waiting for? They do not know whether they should prepare their classes, their labs, their home lives, because the y have not yet had author ization for their part-time tea ching position. Mr. Derkach: lt is interest ing to note that just a day or so ago the Leader of the Op position was making phone calls to the community colleges asking whether or not the Minister of Education was authorizing staffing repla cements on time and so forth.

I have to tel l you that there is a process in place whereby staffing author izations are done and that, as they come to my desk, we take a look at the staffing authorizations that are requested and act on them as quickly as we can. lt takes a little time for staffing authorizations to go from the various depar tments. But I can assure the Mem ber for Stu rgeon Creek (Mr s. Yeo) that staffing arrangements will be in place when classes start in Septem ber. 68 1 Rafferty-Aiameda Project Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): My question is to the Minister of Labour and Environment (Mr . Connery).

On July 27, this Minister empha tically in this House said Manitoba would benefit from the Rafferty -Aiameda pr oject in Sa skatche wan. On August 17 , the Minister said that he could de pend on U.S. Army Corps of Engi neers for all the environmental information he req uired to assure himself that Manitoba would be adequ ately protected. On page 40 of appendix 2 of that U.S. Army Corps of Engi neers Report, it states there is a serious concern about the quality of water leaving the U.S. for Manitoba. "The boundary water treaty calls for the nondegradation of water passed to Canada.

This req uirement may not be satisfied with the decreased flow re gimes ." Will this Minister explain how Manitoba benefits when it will get less water which is more polluted, as it crosses the interna tional boundary after this dam project is complete. Hon. Edward Con nery (Mi nister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health): I do not know where the Mem ber gets the idea that it will be more polluted than what it is now. I think the Honourable Mem ber wants to put into perspective the amount of water that comes into Manitoba from North Dakota that originates in Sa skatchewan. Mr .

Speaker, 19 percent of the total water, if it all flows from Saskatchewa n, is the par t that comes from Saskatc hewan into Manitoba. Under the trea ty, the Sa skatchewan Government has the right to impound half of that water. So less than 10 percent of the water coming into Manitoba from North Dakota will come from Saskatchewan. We do hope though that, because there will dammed water that will be released during the whole year , tha t will be bene ficial to Manitobans. As you know, ther e is the 19 59 internati onal agreement that we discussed the volumes of water that Manitoba will receive.

The Honourable Member knows that, five months out of the year, we receive 20 cfs. We are trying to get that to six months and also to have an addit ional 10 months the rest of the year. So we see some very vital gains in this agre ement. We sent our pr oposals to them. They have come back. We are in the process of negotiation. I think we have a competent team work ing on it. I am confident that it will be more than adequately looked after. Mr. Taylor: The Fish and Wildlife Stud y referenced by the U.S. Army Corps of Engi neers shows that, after Raffert y-Aiameda, Manitoba-Souris water- Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honourable Mem ber have a question? Mr. Taylor: The ques tion then is this: Is the Minister satisfied with 100 percent flows in wet years, 85 percent in average years and in years like now, dro ught years, at a dismal 45 percent? Will he insist that Saskatchewan and North Dakota compensate Manitoba the million dollars necessary to repl ace the town of Souris ' water supply which will be req uir ed as a re sult of this project?

TUesda� August 23, 1988 Mr. Connery: The Mem ber should know that it is lake Darling that really controls the water flow into Manitoba, so the Mem ber is not doing his homework. The amount of water that comes into Manitoba originates in North Dakota. So this plan has very little impact. I can assure you , once our depart ment has gone over this ag reem ent, they will get back to me with re commend ations and we will deal with tho se re commend ations. I will appris e the Ho nourable Mem ber of those. Rafferty-Aiameda Project Environmental Impact Mr.

Harold Taylor (Wolseley): The Minister has not been prepared to secure an envir onmental impact assessment study up until now. Is he prepared to consider this at this time and, if not, would he consider an alternativ e so as to pr oduce a credi ble independ ent scientific review of Manitoba's position by having the federal Gover nment req uest the Internat ional Joint Commission to undertake this work on a priority basis before Manitoba signs its rights away? Hon.

Edward Con nery (Minis ter of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health): I am glad that the Mem ber is so concerned about water, because water right now has become a very important issue in Manitoba. Our depart ment is analyzing the environmental impacts on Manitoba. We have had a lot of conversa tions over it and the y are analyzing the implications to Manitoba. The concern is not the quality as much as the flow. If we do not have the flow, you are not going to have the quality.

So you are going to have the down side. lt is the flow that we are tryi ng to ensur e, that we are work ing with Natural Resources on to ensure. The quality is Environment, Natur al Resources is the flow, and we are work ing to ensur e that we get a better more even flow for Manitobans and the Town of Souris. Manitoba Mediation Board Membership Replacements Mr. Bill Uruski (lnterlake): I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Agricultur e (Mr . Find lay). In the last number of months, western Canadian farmer s have been faced with a severe dr ought as the Minister well knows.

As well, in the last number of weeks, the Canadian bank rate has risen again to all-time highs and interest rates are ris ing, and many farmers are under continued severe financial pressure. I want to ask the Minister of Agricultur e (Mr . Find lay) why he has fir ed the Mani toba Mediation Board members retroactive ly, creat ing a lot of confusion and uncertainty in the 40 to 50 farm families who were before the Media tion Board and had their heari ngs suspended and wasting money by having the new board having heari ngs resc heduled. Can he expl ain that to us? * (14 20) Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): The Mem ber's ques tion rela tes to a tran sition tha t is 682 occurring between a new board and an old board. I will tell the Mem ber that the new board is going to be work ing in conjunction with the federal Debt Review Board so that we can stre amline the process to reduce the cost, reduce the du pl ication that exists in the process. I can tell the Member that we met with the National Farmers' Union last week, and the y agreed that the dupli cation was no longer necessary.

We needed to put the resources to work to do the best job we could for re solving disputes the producers have and tr y to resolve their cases. We know ther e is difficu lty out there and the new board members are actively working towards achieving some debt reso lution for those affected individuals. Mr. Uruski: The Minister did not answer my quest ion but, nevertheless, I want to ask him since he has made th ose replacements without consultation with other political Parties in this House, unlike the set ting up of the board that I did when the board was esta blished that Mem bers from all

Partie s were there. He left one of the members on the board. He has made these replacements. I want to ask him why is he circumve nting the legislation by not passing the req uired Order -in Council. Si nce I checked at quarter after one today, th ere has been no req uired Order -in-Council passed repla cing the board members that he says he has replaced. Mr. Findlay: The Order-in-Council has passed. Mr. Uruski: I wonder what the Minister is hiding by not filing the Or der -in-Council and making the announcements. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Mem ber have a ques tion? Drought Assistance Grain Producers Mr.

Bill Uruski (lnterlake): I ask the Minister, in light of the circumstances that many Manitoba farm families, espe cially those in the grain sector, are facing as a resu lt of the dro ught, can the Minister of Agricultur e (Mr . Find lay) advise Manitobans of his Gover nment's position to the federal Govern ment on further drou ght assistanc e for grain producers? Is he prepared to table tha t position and their reque st to the fed eral Government in the House today? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): I will tell the Mem ber that the federal Government has had mee tings with producer organizations across the countr y. As recently as August 9, a meeting was held in Saskatoon where federal representatives met with pr oducer organiza tions. The Keyst one Agricultural Producers were one organization that was present from the Pr ovince of Manitoba, put on the table a proposal that is being actively pur sued at that level. lt is a very good proposal that hope fully all parts of the countr y will suppor t in terms of federal assistance to the grain pr oducers of Manitoba.

Tuesda� August 23, 1988 Teachers Language Proficiency Test Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I took a quest ion as notice from the Mem ber for Seven Oaks (Mr . Mlnenko) with regard to teacher certific ation or, pardon me, language pr oficiency tes ting mechanisms for teachers of languages other than English, and I would like to provid e the Mem ber with a res ponse to that ques tion. Outsid e of teacher cer tification and decer tification, all matters that are related to hiring or the competence of teachers are within the jurisdic tion of school divisions.

Now divisions will very often either have a member at the board table present who may be proficient in that par ticular language for which a teacher is being hired. In that way, that individual can assess the skills that applic ant has with regard to that par ticular langua ge. When a division makes their intentions known to the department that the y wish to intr oduce a heritage language program, the de partment will many times pr ovide all the necessary sup por t that it can to help the division implement the program in a proper way.

With regard to French language competence, school divisions will sometimes be called upon or will call upon the department to provi de a consultant in terms of implementing program and hiring staff for that particular position. Although it is in the juris dict ion of school divisions, the department is most willing to help in any way that it can. RCMP Protection Winnipeg Beach Mr. Paul Edwa rds (St. James): My ques tion is for the Honourable Attorne y-General (Mr . McC rae) - (I nterject ion)- Got to get some answers yet. On July 4, 19 87, Mr.

Mercier , then the Conservative critic for the Attor ney-General's Depar tment went to a town hall mee ting in Winnipeg Beach. At that town hall mee ting, he made a commitment to th ose people to restore RCMP service to Winnipeg Beach and the surrou nding beach communities, if elected. Now he was not elected, we do not regret that. Soon after the elec tion however , this year , the Honourable Mem ber for Gimli (Mr . Hel wer) went to the Town Council in Winnipeg Beach and said he would be looking into res toring RCMP ser vice.

Now the summer season is almost passed, all but passed, yet the RCMP service has not yet been restored to Winnipeg Beach. This Government has promis ed to restore rural policing. Will it stop doing this selectively , in Reston where the Conservatives have larger majorit ies, and not at Winnipeg Bea ch, and will RCMP be in place at least before the 19 89 summer season? Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): I really do not know what the Honour able Member for St. James (Mr . Edwards) has against the people of Reston. I sup pose it is because he sits so close to the Honourable Mem ber for Ellic e (Ms.

Gr ay) who does not seem to want to see the roof of the cour t house at Minnedosa 68 3 repai red eith er. The se are matters of concern to us and matters that we are act ing upon. Mr. Sp eaker, the Rest on Deta chment, as well as the Deloraine RCMP policing situation, as we ll as the Winnipeg Beach situation, are all under discus sion. Certai nly with Reston, that matter has been decided . Some negotiations had to be unde rtaken with the R.M.'s of Winc hester and Br enda. As wel l, the Town of Deloraine would have been involved in those discussions and similarly with Winnipeg Bea ch.

The commitment that our Govern ment made was to restore and to enhance the rural policing in Manitoba. I think the Budget speaks very loudly about our commitment to tha t very principle, and work is und er way and discus sions are being had with representatives from the Winnipeg Beach area. Mr. Edwards: I cer tainly do not deny that there is lots of talk. Again, for the Honourable Attorne y-General (Mr .

McCr ae), the former Attorney -General of this province assured the House in July that Winnipeg Beach would be safer without the RCMP Detachment, to which the now Premier re spond ed quite correctly , "When the RCMP are not there?" What is this Government's opinion of the need now, now that they have let a full summer season go by without res toring RCMP services? Has it been revised? Mr. Sp eaker: Or der , ple ase; or der, pl ease . The Ho nour able Mem ber's question see ks an opinion. Ther efore, he is out of order. Would the Honourable Mem ber kindly reph rase his ques tion? Mr. Edwards: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I will reph rase that. Will the Honourable Attorney -General ple ase tell this House what this Gove rnment's plans are to restore RCMP service prior to the summer of 19 89? * (14 30) Mr. McCrae: I think when the Honourable Member and I get into a full discus sion of rural policing issues in Es timates, he will be de lighted to learn exactly what it is our Government has in mind for this very fiscal year. In fact, the pre vious Government was bent on reducing services to rural Manitoba.

We are intent on seei ng that does not happen. lt is a fact that crimes committed in rural Manitoba need to be prevented just as the y do in Brandon or just as the y do in Winnipeg . lt is a fact that crime prev ention is just as important in rur al Manitoba as it is in the City of Winnipeg . This Gove rnment is comm itted to th ose kinds of expenditu res and the y are borne out in the Budget documents. RCMP Protection Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): I have no doubt it is just as important. lt is just as important in Winnipeg Beach as it is in Reston. Mr.

Sp eaker , finally let me ask the Honourable Attorne y-General, and this is coming from an

article from the Brandon Sun, a very authoritative source- Mr. Speaker: Would the Honourable Mem ber kindly place his ques tion?

Tuesday, August 23, 1988 Mr. Ed wards: Mr . Sp eaker , for the Ho nourable Attorne y-General, is the Honourable Attorney -General aware that the federal -(Interje ction)-I will reph rase that. Will the Attorne y-General please indicate to this House what his plans are with respect to the recent announcement by the federal Gove rnment that the y have up ped the limit for the funding of police services to 5, 000 people, leaving towns like Carber ry, Morris, Sno w Lake in a vir tual lur ch and, in

part icular, with respect to the Carberr y situation where the pro vincial policing contract was canned in late June of this year. Hon. Ja mes McCra e (Attorney-Gener al): The Honour able Mem ber touc hed on something in the Brandon Sun. Maybe he and I can get together later and dis cuss whatever it was he was going to refer to coming from the Brandon Sun. But I can speak loudly and cl early about the commitment of the pro vincial Govern ment, and discussions about communities like Carberry and Snow Lake are ongoing.

But just to rem ind the Honour able Mem ber who suggests that Winnipeg Beach is not somehow in our minds as important as Resto n, I sugge st the people of Reston will be quite insulted when the y hear the comments of the Liberal Party on this issue when it is reported to them, as I am sur e it will be by the Honour able Mem ber for Ar thur (Mr . Downey). But the Honourable Member's ques tions are trying to make some kind of case, Mr. Speaker , that this Gove rnment has some lack of commitment to Winnipeg Beach or to some place in this provi nce other than perhaps Winnipeg or Reston.

I just do not unders tand that. The facts do not bear him out. Environment Act Legal Opinion Hon. Edward Con nery (Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health): Last week I took th ree qu estions as notice. Mr . Speaker , I promis ed the Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie) that I would supply him with a legal opinion on the need for a Cle an Environment Commis sion hea ring. Th ose will be del ivered to him, to also the Mem ber for Flin Flon who is the critic, and for the Member for Wolseley (Mr . Taylor) who is the critic for the Liberals. Those will be del ivered. Manfor Ltd. Oil Spill Hon.

Edward Conn ery (Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health): We were also asked by the Member for The Pas (Mr . Harapiak) for a report on the spill at Manfor, which he indicated was a re cent spill. Well, I gue ss for the Mem ber, who has not been in the House since we started, it was a recent spill, but the spill actually took place on June 6 and our depa rt ment was notified on June 10. This is a serious spill. lt is bunker sea oil and there were about 2,5 00 litr es of oil that was spil led. The ground water around Manfor is contaminated. We have a large group of people work ing at it.

The Maclaren Engi neeri ng Company is working with Manfor and with our depar tment. They 684 are doing a lot of tests to ensur e that the contaminated water is not moving. As you !.now, the soil in that area is very porous with the rock and fractured rock and so we are very concerned that it does not move into the river that is close by or to the local reserve that is not that far away. We are attem pting to make sure that this spill is confined. We are going to make sure that we do every thing we can to clean it up as quickly as we can. The Member also asked if they were hauling water, Mr.

Speaker , and the y are for the Manfor complex, and we will be continuing to monitor their wells to ensur e tha t contami nated water is not being used. Our depart ment is on top of it. We are concerned, and we will make sur e that this clean-up take s place as quickly as possible. Hospital Bed Closure Policy Mr. Jay Cowan (Ch urchill): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr . Filmon). Yesterday in the Leg islature, the Premier said that his Gover nment would live up to their elect ion commitments on a number of different occasions. The Premier (Mr .

Filmon) clearly stated during the election that the y would put an immediate, and I will read from his own press release: "We will put an immediate halt to permanent bed closures, pending a compr ehen sive revi ew. " Yesterday outside the Chamber, the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) contrad icted the Prem ier 's earlier statement and undermi ned the Part y's-w el l, perhaps I can read the quote from the Winnipeg Sun with respect to what the Min ister of Health said. He said, in respect to the campaign promise: "We would not allow beds to close for bud getary reasons.

Closing beds because there is not enough demand would be in agreement with the policy," he said. My quest ion to the First Minister (Mr . Filmon): Is the Premier now prepared to publicly confirm that the elect ion promis e will be Gover nment policy and so indicate to his Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard), so that the Minister of Health will stop tryi ng to renege on that elect ion promis e? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will publicly confirm that the elect ion policy is the policy of our Government. But if the Member for Chur chill (Mr .

Cowan) is sugges ting that beds ought to be kept open and staffed when the y are em pty, when there is no demand for a

part icular pu rpose for those beds, and that in other areas in the same institution where there may be an increa sing demand, where people are on waiting lists, are not able to get the particular treatment that they are looking for, and that we should not be able to commit resources to that because he believes and his Government believes that we ought to keep empty beds available with staffing and every thing else, if that is their way of managing health care in this province, we do not agree with it.

That is the reason his Gover nment got into such disrepute, because they were so rigid in their applic ation of their princip les that the y insisted on keeping beds staffed and em pty and available for which the re was no demand. That does not make sense, Mr . Speaker.

Tuesday, August 23, 1988 * (14 40) Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker, now we know that the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard ) does not know a prom ise when he sees it, and the Premier (Mr . Filmon) cannot keep a prom ise when he says it. lt was not us who made the foolish commitment to keep hospital beds- Mr. Speaker: Order , pl ease; ord er , ple ase. The Honourable Government House Leader. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): I suspect the Honour able Mem ber is finished now, Mr. Sp eaker. I was on my feet for some time.

Earlier, the Leader of the New Democratic Party was re minded about making speeches in Ques tion Period. His own House Leader has not learned from that experience earlier today. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. Mr. Cowan: On the point of order first, Mr . Speak er, as you have so- Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase; ord er, please. I have said the Honourable Mem ber did not have a point of order. The Honour able Mem ber has time for one- Mr. Cowan: On a new point of order , Mr. Sp eaker. Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Member for Chur chill, on a point of order . Mr. Cowan: Mr.

Sp eaker , on numerous occasions you have indicated to Mem bers in this House, as have other honoured Speakers before you, that long, rhetorical, provocative ques tions provoke the sort of or long provocative answers provoke the sort of -{lnterject ion) ln both instances. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker , I got it right on both occasions. You have indicated that those sorts of answers provoke those sorts of ques tions, and I would suggest that if the Government House Leader (Mr .

McCr ae) wants to rise to his feet on several occasions during the Ques tion Period to admonish Mem bers on this side for doing exactly what is being done on his side, perhaps in his caucus mee tings or in his Cabinet mee tings he could have some private discussions with his Ministers so that we do not get into this sort of a harangue during the Ques tion Per iod. My ques tion to the- Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber does not have a point of order , but I will take into considera tion what the Honourable Mem ber has said and my Chambers are open to the th ree House Leaders of which I expect to meet with this afternoon. The Honour able Mem ber for Chur ch ill has time to place one final ques tion. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker, I told him per sonally not to introd uce that No Smoking Bill. 685 Health Sciences Centre Bed Closures Mr. Speaker: A short ques tion. Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): A short que stion then to the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard).

Can the Minister of Health indicate when it was he learned of the pro posal by the He alth Scienc es Centr e to close the se beds, and what act ion he took and when he took that act ion in res ponse to that information that was provided to him? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr . Speak er, let me refresh my Honour able Mem ber for Chur chill's (Mr . Cowan) reco llec tion of events. One of the statements -(Interjection)-I thought the Honourable Member asked a que stion and wanted an answer, and I will atte mpt to give him that answer.

The Leader of the Oppos ition, during the ele ction campaig n, indicated publicly, as a re sult of the imposed bed closur es put upon the hospitals of Winnipeg by the pre vious administra tion in a very uncoordinated and unpl anned fashion, tha t there would be no permanent bed closur es permit ted for budge tary reaso ns. Mr. Cowan: No, no, no. Mr. Orchard: Mr . Speaker, my honourable friend from Churchill (Mr .

Cowan) ought to know that the comprehensiv e review that he has just referred to is an attempt to dete rmine and to coord inate the del ivery of health care services in Winnipeg and throughout the Pr ovince of Manitoba. Upon assuming the res ponsibility for Minister of Heal th, I believe, on May 9, shortly thereafter the Manitoba He alth Services Commission was informed that ther e will be no bed closures due to budgetary constraints. That communication went to the Health Scie nces Centr e as well as every other hospital administra tion in the City of Winnipeg.

In a letter of July 22, in which the proposal to extend the summer closing of 22 respi ratory beds was made, on July 22, there is within that request a statement which I would like to read to my honourable friend : "We realize, however , that per manent closu re is dependent upon ministerial approv al." Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, do they not want an answer to the ques tion the y posed ? Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Does the Honourable Member have leave to answer this very important questi on? (Agre ed) Mr.

Orchard: The answer to the ques tion is the Health Scienc es Centr e knew on July 22, 19 88, tha t this Government would not allow pe rmanent bed closur es because of budgetary constraint and allude d to that

Tuesday, August 23, 1988 very fact in the letter requesting an extended closure for those summer-closed beds. No communication was further to that July 22 letter because it was acknowledged that ministerial approval would not be given and was not requested. That is the simple answer to my honourable friend. Mr. Cowan: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan), on a point of order. Mr. Cowan: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is customary that when a Minister reads from correspondence in the House that he tables that correspondence.

Is the Minister prepared to table that letter? Mr. Orchard: I will provide my honourable friend with a copy of that letter . Mr. Speaker : The Honourable Member for Churchi ll (Mr. Cowan) did not have a point of order. The time for oral questions has expired. *

(1450) ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would like to move , seconded by the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Cummings), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Community Services; and the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr.

Minenko) in the Chair for the Department of Industry , Trade and Tourism . CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-COMMUNITY SERVICES Mr. Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer: The Committee of Supply will be dealing t he Est imates of the Department of Community Services. We will begin with a statement from the Honourable Minister responsible. Hon . Charlo tte Oleson (Minis ter of Community Services): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In opening discus sion of t he 1988 -89 Est imates of Manitoba Communit y Services , I can assure Honourable Members and all Man itobans that we are firmly committed to provid ing high-quali ty social services. I would like to emphasize that my department is responsible for ensuring that high-quality social services are available to Manitobans. Our goals are to encourage independence and increase human potential by working 686 with individuals, families :,nd communities in a supportive and enabling man .ier. In its programs, my department will reflect the human rights and diverse cultures of Manitobans .

Services will be accessible to all Manitobans to the maximum extent possible . In fulfilling this mandate , we will streamline administrative operations whenever possible , ensuring that most efficient and effective use of available resources is achieved . This principle will be closely linked to maintaining a consultative and cooperative relationship with the community and agencies through which many of the services supported by my department are provided. For 1988-89, we are proposing expenditures of $194 ,549 ,800 for Manitoba Community Services .

This represents an i.icrease of $27 million over the Budget for the 1987-88 fiscal year. The 1988-89 Estimates include important funding increases for a number of programs that are priorities for Manitobans. These include child day care , support to centres and agencies, wife abuse, child abuse , and persons with disabilities. Before discussing detailed Estimates , I want to mention two other important matters. First, with respect to the Decade of the Disabled Persons, we have committed additional funds to the Research and Planning Branch in operational support for the work of the coordinator for the Decade .

Work is continuing on a Government-wide plan to improve accessibility of Government programs and services to disabled persons. This Government intends to work closely with the disabled community to ensure full participation and equality for all disabled people. Second, in response to requirements in the department and needs in the community, a number of serv ice manuals and protocols are in the process of development. They are intended for use by departmental staff, staff of the Child and Family Services agencies and of licensed residential care facilities.

We expect that these resources will play an important role ensuring that high-quality service and safety standards are maintained and proper procedures followed in the delivery of services to Manitobans. The services within the Community Social Services Division are operated through consultation and in cooperation with a number of external agencies that are supported by departmental funding. Essentially, we have budgeted for continuation of service at existing levels. In the case of agency services, we made a general provision for increases of up to 3 percent in financial assistance.

With respect to the Manitoba Developmental Centre, the department will continue to implement recommendations of the Report of the Ombudsman . Some provisions for this implementation to be made are in MDC's Operational Budget, others are in the Department of Government Services. Provisions have been made for the continuation of existing services for this fiscal year and a cont ingency fund to allow for some volume increases . The department's priority is consolidation and maintenance of the same level of service, with program expansion

Tuesday, August 23, 1988 dep ending on community read iness and budgetary factors. Child and Fam ily Services, the most sign ificant changes in the Es timates this year are in the Child and Fam ily Services Division. This, Mr . Chairman, reflects the need to maintain and improve social services, par ticula rly services to childr en and families. Our child day care allocations will incr ease by 25 percent over 19 87-88 to 35.7 million. These increases are re quir ed to ensur e high-quality child care system and gener ate impr ovements to re spond to the needs of Manitobans.

About $2 million of the incr ease will be allocated to new progr amming, designed to improve the access ibility of existing day care spaces by making subsidies to parents more flexible and portable. We have also earmarked $1. 6 million in additional funds to cover volume increases arising from the fact that more families may be eligible for day care subsidies. More than $2.5 million in additional funds will be committed to establishing funded facilities that were appro ved in the pre vious fiscal year and funded on a part-year basis.

We are committed to making the se facilities part of the curr ent day care system. More funds will be allocated to helping families with financial needs and families with dis abled childr en who req uir e da y care services. This Gove rnment is committed to integ rating special-needs childr en into the day care syste m. Finally, $970,000 has been earmarked for incr eases to day care fees, to help day care centres keep up with incr eases in their own opera tional costs. We are continuing prepara tions, Mr.

Chairman, to negotiate with the fe deral Gover nment conc ern ing the details of Manitoba's participation in the proposed National Child Care Plan. We will ensure tha t Manitobans receive maximum benefits from the federal plan. We are continent that, with its assistance, our program will ensur e tha t all Manitobans will continue to have affordable, acces sible, high-quality day care, prov iding a full range of oppor tunities to family, private and public facilities, facilities that meet the needs of both full-time and part-time users in our cit ies and rural areas and in remote communities.

We will announce shortly the details of the Task Force on Child Care, which will provide an important perspective into child care needs of Manitobans. * (15 00) My Government is committed to a day care system that will provide a sensible balance of public family day care homes, workp lace and private day care. Our first commitment is the dev elopment and well-being of the child and, secondly, we will give the choice of appropria te child care back to the parents where it belongs. With regard to foster care, Mr.

Chairman, I am pleased to announce the first significant adjustment in rates to foster parents in several years. Retroactive to April 1, parents will receive an increase of 3 percent over pre vious rates. They wi ll also receive an incr ease of $1 a day, effective September 1. This is an average increase of 12 .4 percent over the previ ous rates, the highest 687 incr ease in several years and the fi rst increase to have been allocated in dollars and not straight percentages.

We see this as an important achieve ment for a Gover nment in the first weeks of its mandate. lt clearly demonstrates our willingness to re spond to providers of direct services. In an effort to str engthen suppor t for community based agencies in the field of child abuse, we will provi de a significant incr ease in funding to the Child Protec tion Centre in Winnipeg. The funds the y will receive in 19 88-89 will be more than double the amount in 19 87-88. These additional funds will allow the centr e to re spond to a major incr ease in its caseload.

This is the first major incr ease in supp ort to this agency in several years. In the area of Fam ily Violence Services, I have today announced initiatives to correct long-standing funding imbalances and strengthen the position of community agencie s servi ng abused women and their childr en. Mr. Chairman, we recognize that our funded agencies have faced major problems because of the defeated Budget of the previ ous Gover nment. I want to thank them for their patienc e and understa nding over the last few months.

I also wish to thank the staff of my department who have been given extra work in the past thr ee months bre aking in a new Minister and in pr eparing a second set of Estimates and a new Budget. I have gr eatly benefitted from mee tings with departmental staff in their work places, and their efforts have been very much appreciat ed. These Es timates of my department reflect our strong commitment to a social service system that re sponds to the needs and concerns of Manitobans. At the same time, we have determ ined service prioriti es in light of available res ources.

In recent months, I have had opportunities to meet with many indi viduals and delega tions in the social service field to examine needs and ways to add ress them. I look forward to working with Manitobans and with the community agents that have ded icated thems elves to serve the community. Mr . Chairman, I look forward to a mean ingful exam ination of the Spend ing Est imates of this depar tment. I welcome the Mem bers' par ticipa tion, const ructive criticism and sugge stions.

After all, what we are here to do as a Gover nment and Opposition is to make sure that service is provided to people who rely on us for help. The overri ding principle which our Gover nment has stated on numerous occasions is that our priorit y is service and these Estimates clearly reflect that priorit y. Mr. Chairman: We will now have the customar y reply by the critic of the Official Opposition (Ms. Gr ay). Ms. Avis Gray (EIIice): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

We certa inly welcome the Minis ter's comments about looking forward to this prod uctive Sessi on, and we too see the role of Es timates to look at services provided to Manitobans. Certai nly we will be provi ding cons tr uctiv e criticism and inp ut and sugges tions as we do go thr ough the Est imates. We are entering a time where it is more important than ever that we really examine our social services in

TUesda� August 23, 1988 the Pr ovince of Manitoba and the impact of the dec isions that we make in this depar tment. We know the y are very far rea ching. Decisions in this department that are made cer tainly affect our mor e vulnerable citizens in Manitoba, whether those citizens are our childr en in regard to day care, our childr en in regard to child welfare, whether it be citizens, our mentally and physically handicapped , or whether the y are our battered women and families who are in trauma and difficulties. We certa inly look forward, Mr.

Chairman, throughout these Estimates, in looking for clear dir ec tion and policy in the Depar tment of Community Services in all areas. We cert ainly know it has been a difficult task for this Minister and for any new Gove rnment coming in to take over the Depart ment of Community Services because, in de scri bing the department in the last four or five years, I must say it is a horrific mess. We certai nly look forward to clear policy dir ec tion and new group dir ec tion, common-sense app roaches to pr ovidin g services to Manitobans. Every day in this provi nce, Mr .

Chairperso n, we are aware of the needs of families out there regard ing day care. We look forward , as we go through the Es timates, to hearing what specific plans this Government has in the Ministry of Community Services regard ing prov iding more day care spaces which are much needed in Manitoba. Every day we receive calls from families and from day cares and all day cares, or most of them, seem to have waiting lists.

We know ther e is a tremen dous need for innovative app roaches in day care, par ticula rly in rur al Manitoba, in a time where the farm economy is particularly poor and women are now forced to go off the farm and find se cond jobs. The need for looking at innovative day care app roaches are very, very important and we look forward to engaging in conversa tions and discussi ons with the Minister and her department regard ing actually dev eloping strat egie s through imp ro ved da y care services in rur al Manitoba. Mr.

Chairpers on, I will keep my comments fairly brief because I would like the opportun ity to make further statements at the end of the Es timates process, but 1 would like to comment on the Child and Fam ily Services. We certai nly hope, as we go through these Estimates, that there is a rec ognition of the needs for the Child and Family Services agencies to receive funding that will at least allow them to maintain services and maintain the mandate that the y are called to do in terms of child protec tion.

We also hope that dollars will be forthco ming so that the se Child and Family Services agencies can really deal with prev ention issues. Ther e have been some difficultie s in the past regard ing the lack of outr each funding provide d to rural Child and Fam ily Services agencies. lt has been available to Child and Fam ily Services agencies in Winnip eg and we hope that funding, as we ll, will be available to agencies in rural Manitoba.

We, as well, hope that with the Child and Fa mily Services agencies that this Gove rnment will be looking 688 at some of the difficulties that ther e had been over the last few years in terms of gruwing pains of the Child and Fam ily Ser vices agencies as the y have been decentral ized , and that ther e will be a commitment towards impr oved coord ination of services across the City of Winnipeg and, in fact, in all of Manitoba.

In regard to services to the mentally handicapped , we will certai nly be asking on this side of the table important ques tions regard ing exactly what some of the policies are of this Gover nment in regard to the mentally handicapped in regard to self-determination, the balance between institution and community.

We know that clear policy dir ec tion has been very woefully lacking in the last few years and we are quite willing to work with this particular Minister and the department to ensur e th at policies are much clear er, to ensur e that agencies in the community, that families and individuals in the community are aware of what services are available, and to ensur e as well that staff in the field and supervisors are aware of what policies are so that they can communicate that with the public as well. Mr.

Chairperson, the Premier in the House oftentimes likes to use the ph rase "and we work hand in glove." Well, that takes care of the left hand, but let us ensur e that the right hand as well knows what the left hand is doing, and I think that is very, very critic al in this par ticu lar depar tment. We will certai nly be looking at the VRS funding and be asking ques tions regard ing policy clarifica tion in that particular area as it involves policies with external agencie s such as AFM and the Socie ty for Manitobans with Disabilities. The Minister of Community Services (Mr s.

Oleson) in her open ing statement talked about stre amlining opera tions, and I think as well that it is very, very important that we certainly need to be looking at the ratio of field staff to cleric al in reg ional opera tion and, par ticul arly, the ratio of field staff to super visors. I think it is very important that we clearly look at middle management and sen ior management in the Depar tment of Community Services to ensur e that, in fact, people who are in jobs are doing a worthwh ile service and that, if ther e is stre amlining that can occur, that is done. Mr .

Chair perso n, I have a few more comments regard ing the Fam ily Dispute Services, as I mentioned in the House earlier on tod ay, we certai nly do commend this Government for their effo rts and initia tiv e in prov iding extra funding and a better base of funding for shelters across the provinc e.

We cer tainly do have some concerns about the fact that, with the funding that has now ended for the Manitoba Committee on Wife Abuse, in fact ther e is no umbrella organization or advoca cy group tha t is availa ble to de al with concerns, to deal with public educa tion and some trai ning issues with the shelters across the pr ovince. * (151 0) I ur ge the Govern ment to speak with the shelters across the province, Stein bach, The Pas, Norway House and the ones in Winnipeg, to sit down with those par ticular groups and discuss the issues of what type of umbrella organization or membersh ips organization

Tuesda� August 23, 1988 perhaps should be looked at. I think it is important that, with these shelters and abuse centr es across the province, ther e is an organization that can prevent frag mentation of services across the province, prevent some compe tition and also ensur e that there is that objective advocacy towards Government. At this point, Mr. Chairp erso n, th ose are all the comments that I have. Again, I would like the opportunity to be able to make further comments, and I know I will as we go through Es timates but also at the end of Est imates. Thank you. Mr.

Chairman: We will now hear from the critic of the Second Opposition Party. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Thank you, Mr. Chairper son. I would like to begin my remarks as well by thanking the Minister of Community Services (Mr s. Oleson) for her opening statement and for an indication of her plans and her strateg ies for the depa rt ment as a whole for the coming fiscal year.

I too look forward to work ing, as much as it is possible, on a cooperative basis of work ing together to find solutions to some very difficult problems, of trying to avoid, as much as possible, the environment that has characterized the Chamber. Ho wever, Mr . Chai rpers on, I have a number of concerns tha t I want to outline, a number of fears and worries that I want to present to the committee, but I do not want, at any point, for those remarks to be seen as a personal attack on the Minister.

I have concerns and my col league s in the NDP caucus have concerns about Government per formance in this area to date, about Gover nment plans for this area in the future. Our comments and our ques tioning and our debating will not in any way be a reflection on the personal ca pabilities of the Minister but the y will be very much a commentary on the per formance of the Government as a whole and its commitment to this policy area and to the broader area of social policy.

In our view, social policy dev elopment is one of the critical fund amental polic y areas for any present Government right across this countr y. lt is an area that has too often been red uced to se condary status, dismissed as soft policy matter by other Conservative Governm ents across this country. We only have the example of the late Sterl ing Lyon Government to use as an example of the kind of worries and fears that we have before us.

The point I was tryi ng to empha size is that social policy and parts ther eof, whether it be Community Service specific matters, family-related policy matters, policies pertai ning to childr en, or policies pert aining to ec onomic securi ty and social prog ress for all of our target groups are very much fundamental and central to any plan of act ion by any Government. I am afr aid, Mr. Chairpers on, that to date we have not seen evidence of that kind of commitment to equal priority being attached to social policy dev elopment that we have seen being attached to ec onomic and indus trial strateg ies.

I would like to see all of these issues elevated to the highest level possible in all of our arenas whether it be the Chamber, whether it be the committee, whether it be the internal work ings of any one depar tment, so 689 that we can begin in a more comprehensiv e way to deal with some very serious problems looming on the horizon, some problems and some demands and some new concerns that req uire a reprior ization on the part of the Government of the Day to meet those challenges.

While I said that I would not be singling out the abilities of the Min ister , I want to say tha t we are very disappointed that over the last th ree to four months we have not seen evidenc e of specific concrete policy decisions, of comprehensiv e coord inated planning around these very important issues and we believe there has been time enough. Our patienc e is run ning out. The Minister has asked for our patienc e and I want to say, with all respect to the Minister, that our patienc e is running out.

There have been too many burning issues that have emerged over the last th ree to four months that have been totally ignored by the Minister and dismissed and pushed off, to the Budget first with no answers forthc oming, to the Es timates where we hope we will finally get the answers. Today at the midnight hour, the Minister announced details of one par ticular policy area, very important, a critical policy area for the Government as a whole and

part icularly wi thin the mandate of the Depart ment of Community Services. We are delig hted to see some de tails around the depar tment's plans for deal ing with the very difficult issues that battered women face, but that was at the midnight hour. We have been waiting and waiting and waiting for detailed plans on a number of policy areas. Our job here in this committee, in this Es timates process, will be to get those answers and we will be here until we get those answers. The people of Manitoba want those answers.

They want to know where this Gove rnment is taking us, where this Government is placing its prioritie s on a number of key issues. We have mentioned many of them in our ques tioning to date in the House.

At the top of the list has been the issue of child care, an issue that is long overdue in terms of specific plans and det ails and answers from the Minister. lt is an area that is growing in terms of demands and needs daily. lt is an area that is demanding our immed iate attention because of the federal initiative in this re gard. lt is an area tha t has re ally left Manitobans, because of commitments made by the Conservative Government during the elec tion, wondering where we are going with it and what is happen ing to our quality child-care system.

I think the re is no one in this room who will dispute the fact that, up until recently , Manitoba has led the countr y and indeed the continent on child care policy. it was the NDP Government that initiated the most comprehen sive planning and set of discussions and coord inated strateg izing ar ound quality, affordable, acces sible child care that res ulted in the best plan that is seen anywhere in the countr y, tha t re sulted in probably the most progressive undert aking around child care anywhere in North America.

That has been acknowledged by other provincial jurisdictions, that has been acknowledged by Senators appointed by the federal Conservative Gove rnment, and tha t has been acknowledged by Leg islatu res outside of Canada. Mr. Chairpers on, we are very worried in the NDP Caucus that we will be losing and that we may have

✓ Tuesday, August 23, 1988 already lost some of that leadership that has guided this country and this continent, that we will be going back in time, losing ground that has been made by the former NDP Government and by people like Myrna Phillips who went right across this country talking to Manitobans everywhere, collecting data and information about the needs and concerns in this field, and we want to see that leadership position upheld. It is without a doubt that we are facing a critical situation with respect to taking advantage of the federal initiative on child care .

The Minister has said the legislation is not passed, but the Minister also knows that Manitoba is one of only two provinces that has not submitted a plan, even a tentative plan, to the federal Government for staking out a position and a ground with respect to our needs here in Manitoba so that we can maintain the kind of quality, access ible, affordable child care system that has been our pride and, more than our pride, that has reached and met the needs of Manitoba families everywhere.

Related to that lateness in submission to the federal Government , related to the loss in ground that may have occurred , we know that provinces, powerful provinces like Ontario-Manitoba is always powerful but not always numerically-and Quebec are standing at the trough with both feet in it and they are lining up for their share of scarce dollars through this federal national day care strategy .

There is every reason to believe that Manitoba will be losing the position that we have staked out for ourselves and the goals that we have set for ourselves in terms of making steady progress in meet ing the needs of families everywhere as they seek real, meaningful , quality alternatives for care of their children as they work and as they go and take advantage of further education. *

(1520) So it will be our intention to find out exactly what the intentions of this Minister and this Government are with respect to child care, and not to wait for days , not to wait for weeks to get answers, but to hear and receive some answers now to know immediately what ithose plans are so that we can be assured that we will be meeting the needs of Manitobans in a real way. There have been many other issues that have emerged over the last several months that require our immediate attention and that make us somewhat concerned and worried about the present Government's commitment to social and family policy .

The Premier (Mr. Filmon) at the Premiers Conference participated in a decision by Premiers right across this country to participate in a specia l con ference on family polic y. We were very pleased to see that kind of development take place, to see the Premiers , the leaders of this country, focus on a very important social policy issue, that being concerns related to the family. But it will be our specific concern to determine exactly what is the policy of this Government when it comes to the family, when it comes to meeting the needs of the family into the next decade .

We will be wanting to know whether or not this Government has recognized the reality of the family 690 today, has recognized the fact t hat in most cases there are either two persons work i'ly in the family or the family is constituted with a single parent headed by a woman. Mr. Chairperson, it will be important for all of us to know how this Government is keeping up with the change in the family, keeping up with the growing demands being placed on the family , the demands of trying to juggle care of the children, of quality parenting and good productive members of our labour force .

We have had some indication unfortunately, to date, to indicate that this Government has not kept pace with changes in the family and with demands and concerns of Manitoban families. The failure of this Minister and this Government to find some middle ground in meeting the needs of the Foster Parents' Association of Manitoba is ample evidence of that. It is evidence of a Government that is not prepared to deal with a new demand placed in front of it for which it has not budgeted , but for which it has new-found resources to allocate in that direction.

To perpetuate the notion that the family is not the bedrock of our society or to perpetuate the notion that parenting and the work of care of children, of quality care for children, is something that should be viewed as unpaid or cheap labour in our society, I think, Mr.

Chairperson, any policy on the family, any progressive policies and programs to deal with the family must start to change that perception, must start to give credit where credit is due and recognize the incredible job that parents provide to our economy, the incredible role that families make in our economy, the incredible contribution that has been made by women who have been primary caregivers for decades and decades. Mr. Chairperson, that is the kind of policy that will have to be addressed by this Government because society is changing, because the family is changing, because needs are changing .

We need to see evidence of that in response to critical issues like the Foster Parents' Association. We would hope that the Minister will, in the very near future, change her position, become less inflexible around the needs being presented by the Foster Parents' Association and present a compromise position, move part way to meet the concerns of this association and recognize their worth as an organization , as well as the work they do in providing care for kids with special circumstances, kids who really depend on good quality foster care . Mr.

Chairperson, there have been other issues as well that have caused us great concern. Today, we heard the news, as I said, and I was pleased to hear some news around the question of battered women, the needs of battered women and spousal assault. However, as in the case of child care, we have yet to see from this Government some leadership, some direction, some clear strategy around the long term, of meeting on a long-term basis the growing needs and demands in this very serious area. We all hoped that the Minister at her first Ministers' Meeting of Ministers Responsible for Status of Women

TUesda� August 23, 1988 would have maintained Manitoba's leader ship position by taking to that conference detailed presentat ions on the part of Manitoba's concerns, demands and needs, and continue to lead the way, but I am afraid all the evidence suggests that the Minister has resorted to a listen ing position rather than a lead ing position. Mr.

Chairpers on, we very much will urge the Minister, throughout this Estimates process, to regain that lead ing position, to go to our fed eral-provincial Ministers and lead the way on matters pert aining to child care, on matters pertai ning to battered women, on matters pertai ning to child abuse and seek creative solutions, seek real initia ti ves on the pa rt of the federal Government to help us solve some of the se incr ed ible problems facing us. * (15 30) I will be raising as well concerns that are gr owing in the area with respect to this Government's commitment to mee ting the needs of parents of childr en who are mentally retarded at the community level.

We will be seek ing from the Minister specific answers and a specific plan of act ion around dei nstitutionalization, around a commitment to the Welcome Home initiative sponsored by the previous NDP administra tion, around adequate Respite care for parents who choose to keep their childr en at home in the community, and around the deficit situation facing numerous group homes right across this province. There is a crisis looming on the horizon, a crisis that re quir es act ion on the part of the Minister.

We are pleased to see that this Government has chosen, as far as we can tell, not to engage in the usual Conservative tra dition of cutting and slashing in social programs. We are pleased , and I have said this on many occasions, that this Government has chosen to introduc e the same spen ding incr eases roughly that were introduced by the NDP administration in the last Budget. But it is not good enough to simply pretend that one is progressive in terms of social spe nding and in terms of social policy.

Any Government is tested by its ability to respond to new issues, to new situations, to new demands and new needs that are directed at it, that come with this field. This policy area is filled with examples of gr owing needs that are not caused by maladministra tion, that are not caused by neglect but are caused by the fact that people are coming forward with examples of abused childr en, th at people are coming to grips with problems that have been kept behind closed doors for decades and decades.

So the challenge for any Government, the challenge for the pre vious Government and now the challenge for this Government is to deter mine how it will react to those new needs and those new demands. The Foster Parents' Association presented one such demand and we unfortu nately saw the intransig ence of the present Gove rnment on that issue. We hope tha t will be reversed.

We will see, on a daily basis, new challenges to this Government that can be add ressed by a commitment to social policy dev elopment in a serious way, and by 691 a repriorization of resources based on new-found wealth that does not all have to go towards tax breaks to mining companies and big corpora tions and the CPR, but some of which could be directed to meeting the needs of the Foster Parents' Association or the defi cits of group homes or the deficits of Child and Family Agencies, and the list goes on and on. I realize I am taking up considerable time.

I will try to conclude my remarks by saying that, for the NDP, the whole area of social policy is for us of the utmost importance and must receive adequa te attention and adeq uate resources if we are going to build for the future, if we are going to ensur e ec onomic and social security for all of our citiz ens. We will be looking for an und ersta nding of this Gover nment about its app roach to social policy, its approach to Community Services.

We will be anxious to know if the fact that this Minister has both resp onsibilities of Econ omic Security and Community Services means a step backwards in time, or if the y are committed to a clear deli neation between tho se two entir ely dif fere nt pol icy areas and resp onsibilities. We will be look ing very closely at any shifts in spe nding to ensure tha t ther e is a cont inued commitment to high standards, to community-based, non-profit deliv ery of service.

In that context, we will be very, very concerned if there is a move on the part of this Government, as was hinted at in today's opening remarks by the Minister, to reallocate resources that have been earmarked for the child care dev elop ment field into the private sector .

If this Government is dete rmi ned to re allocate resources which, by the way, have been again put in th e Budget at the same level as that of the previous NDP administrat ion but reallocated to sponsor existing spaces in the private child care field , then we will have enormous concerns and the people of Manitoba will have enormous concerns about the comm itment of this Government to quality, affordable, acces sible child care.

Because any allocation of set budget to meet the needs, the profit motives of private operators to fund existing spaces only means taking away from parents who have been on waiting lists for non-profit spaces for months and for years, will only take away from the goal of enhancing salaries for unde rpaid child care profes sionals. lt will only take away from the goal of ensuring that our child care centres and our day care pr ograms are at the highest standards and with the highest possible quality.

Finally, we will be looking at this Govern ment's commitment to mee ting the needs of those who face special problems in our society, who have double bur dens in our soci ety, the commitment of this Government to reach out and meet the needs of our Native community in real and meaningful ways, of the visible minority community, of the dis abled community, of single-parent women and the list goes on.

All of those target gr oups re quire a commitment to affirmative act ion program ming, to special initiatives, to long-term planning and to very major allocations of resources. lt will be our hope that no group, no individual is left with a need unmet or with concerns unadd ressed by this Government.

TUesda� August 23, 1988 Let me conclude by saying it is immensely important that this area be dealt with in great detail and with great seriousness. I hope that we will be able to find grounds for cooperation and grounds for coming together to find solutions to new problems. That will mean a signal from this Government of a commitment to raising the priority that it has attached to social policy to date, of giving it much higher empha sis, much gr eater allocation of resources that has been seen to date. Thank you, Mr . Chairperson . Mr.

Ch airman: I would rem ind Mem bers of the committee that the date on the Minister's Salary is deferred until all other items in the Estimates of this department are passed . At this time we would invite the Minister's staff to take their places at the table by the Minister. Mrs. Oleson: Before we begin, I would like to introduce my staff. I have with me Mr.

Ken Gr ay, Executive Director , Admin istration and Finance; Joe Cels, Assistant Deputy Min ister of Communi ty Social Services; Drew Perry, Assistant Deputy Minister of Child and Fam ily Services; Rick Dykes, Director of Financial Ad ministra tion; Lou Gorski, Director, Residential Care Licensi ng; Dave Floren, Manager, Financial Services; and Con Hn atiuk, my Deputy Minister. Mr. Cha irman: We will pr oceed to item 1. (

b) Adminis tration and Finance, Execu tiv e Su pport: Provides for the operat ion of the offices of the Minister and the Deputy Minister.

(1) Salaries, $151, 10 0.00. Will the item pass? Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperso n, the Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness) tabled the financial report that listed the fourth quarter actuals. Could we ask this Minister to provide the line-by-line act uals, as would be de.:.c ri bed from the report in the fourth quarter statement? Mrs. Oleson: Would it be helpful if I just provided a list? That probably would be more helpful than me read ing them off and you trying to jot them down. Ms.

Gray: In the Supp lementary Estimates on Sched ule 3, page 12, under the Reconciliation Statement, th ere is mention of transfer of functions from a variety of areas, such as Executive Council, Educa tion, Health , Attorney-General , and Health again, and Gover nment Services. Could we have an explanation as to exactly what is involved in the se transfer of functions and what are include d in the dollar amounts? Mrs. Oleson: Ther e is one SY to do with services for hyperactive childr en; one SY, Childr en's Therapeutic Services and the Independent Living Resource Centre; division of Correct ions, one SY. Ms.

Gray: The Minister has just indicated the number of SYs. What specifically was the transfer of functions from the Executive Council? lt amounted to $32,400.00. * (1 540) Mrs. Oleson: lt was a position transferred from the former Government's Planning and Priorities group. 692 Ms. Gray: Would the Minister tell us what the pu rpose of this par ticular position wa .. 8nd why the reason for the transfer? Mrs. Oleson: The position had pr evi ously been seconde d from the depart ment. it is now back in the department to work on programs. Ms.

Gray: When the position was seconded to the Department of Community Services, what exactly was the, I assume it was, person or a number of persons doing within that position? Mrs. Oleson: lt was one position tha t worked on planning and priori ties for the work on programs for the Planning and Prioritie s Branch, but it is now in the department instead of being in the Planning and Pr iorities Branch. Ms. Gray: Mr . Chairperson, in the Edu cation, the Reconc iliation Statement, what was involved with the trans fer of functions and the involvement of the $1 1 ,400.00? Mrs.

Olason: That was the one I indicated before, the services for hyperactive childr en. Ms. Gray: The services for hyperactive childr en, where now are dollars found for services to hyperactive childr en? Mrs. Oleson: Under Childr en's Special Services which follows on a different line than this. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister explain to us in detai l the transfer of functions regard ing Health for the amount of $3 51, 000.00? Mrs. Olason: That was a transfer to us of the reg ional dir ector from Thompson and a transfer of some of the Inde pendent Living Resources and Community Thera py.

They were funded under Health before. They are now being transferred to this department. Ms. Gray: Would the Minister explain to us in a bit more detail where in this Budget we would find the dollars allocated for Community Therapy services? Mrs. Oleson: Childr en's Special Services, under Community Services sec tion. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us again specific detai ls as the transfer of functions of the $45, 200 to Health from Community Services? Mrs. Olason: That is a reco nciliation, to the Mem ber, between Health and Community Services, a transfer back to the re gional dir ector at Thompson. Ms.

Gray: Mr . Chairperso n, could the Minister tell us about the Allocation of funds from Government Services for the amount of $1 32,5 00 what th ose dollars were specifical ly for? Mrs. Oleson: Those were for postal services. At one point-1 am not sure exactly when it happ ened -postal

Tuesday, August 23, 1988 services were dir ected out of the Depar tment of Government Servic es and put on a line in each department so that each de par tment has in its line a fee for postal services. Ms. Gray: On page 27, in the Supp lementary Estimates, under Executive Support, the Sal aries indicate one managerial position. Would the Minister tell us who is the manager of that par ticular Executive Sup port of Administra tion and Finance? Mrs. Oleson: My Deputy Minister. Ms. Gray: Okay, fine. There is an indication of red uction in staff years as a result of an amalgamation of several Government departments.

Would the Minister explain to us exactly what was involved in that amalgamation, where the SVs have been trans ferred to? If there were individuals in those SVs, are those individuals st ill working or and were they transferred with the positions? Mrs. Oleson: Four posit ions were abolished . Ms. Gray: The Minister Indic ates that four posit ions were abolished . Were Individua ls in those positions and what has become of those individuals? Mrs. Oleson: They were vacant positions. Ma. Gray: Would the Minister explain to us the rationale for abolishing the se four positions, the se four SVs? Mrs.

Oleson: These positions had been kept vacant because of decisions made in the previous fiscal year and now have just remained vacant. Ms. Gray: Mr . Chairperson , there is an indication th at there are two SVs for profes sional/te chnical, or the y were the two profes sional/te chnical posit ions. Could the Minister elaborate exactly what those positions did, a

summary of what their job functions were? Mrs. Oleson: Those positions were positions to the former Minister. Because of the changes and just having one Minister for two departments, th at naturally shows up a change in that as I believe one SY will be assigned to this department as one of my private staff and the other one to Emp loyment Ser vices Depa rtment. Thereby , ther e will not be as many people involved here. Ms.

Gray: Under the same reference No. 2 in regard to Op era ting Exp enditur es, in the Op era ting Exp enditur es, the appropriations have not changed significantly given that ther e is a decrease in the staff. Could the Minister ex plain this? Mrs. Oleson: There have been general salary increases in these areas and th at probably is the reason for the amounts being similar. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister explain for us, for instance, the Transportation line has remained the same, the Communication line has incr eased , and Suppl ies and Services have remained the same, as well in Other 693 has decreased?

Why has there been a similar amount of money allocated when there are less positions? What are the specific rea sons for that? Mrs. Oleson: The expenses for operating the Minister's office ess entially re mains the same, even though there were no longer those same number of positions the re. lt costs the same amount to run the office. * (1 550) Ms. Gray: The activity identi fication in this par ticular line of the bud get refers to Executive Su pport, and indic ates that in fact Executive Sup port is resp onsible for ensuring some financial accountability and that some systems are in place.

Could the Minister explain to us, specifi cally, what mech anisms this particu lar part of the depar tment dev elops to ensur e that in fact there is financial acc ountability throughout the depar tment? Mrs . Oleson: Thank you, Mr . Chairman, for the Mem ber. lt is re gular financial forecast ing for the department. Ms. Gray: Do these par ticular staff in the department set up or ens ur e that financial commitment accounting systems are in place thr oughout the depar tment, or is it simply foreca sting? Mrs . Oleson: That is done in the Financial and Administra tion Branch. Ms. Gray: That is fine. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: I assume we are st ill on 1. (b)? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: As I unde rstand it, the major red uction from the previous fiscal year is based on the need for less staff because the Minister now has several different respon sibilities. Could I just get a clarifica tion on exactly what that transla tes into in terms of what staff she has in total available to her, both in terms of secretarial suppor t and in terms of executive and special assistance? What numbers does it work out to? Mrs.

Oleson: My office has thr ee secretaries and one spec ial assistant who will ap pear in line s in this depar tment. I also have an executive assistant who will show in lines of the other department. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I just re ally have one que stion in this whole area and I hinted at it in my opening remarks. That is: Ha s ther e been any discussion, any thinking in terms of a long-term plan to merge the Depar tments of Community Services and Ec onomic Security?

I raise it, giv en the fact that when different resp onsibilities have been lumped together , it has re sulted in, in effect, a departmental res tructuring that would suggest in a case like this that we are headed towards a merg ing down the road . I would like to know if the Minister has an opinion-! guess I cannot ask, has an opinion. Have

TUesda� August 23, 1988 there been discussions ar ound that? What is the policy of the Government with respect to those two areas? What kind of differences does she attach to the two different policy areas? Mrs. Oleson: At presen t, the departments are running as two separate entities. I have not been in discussion with anyone about changing that system at the present time. There are some functions of both departments that complem ent one another.

On one or two occasions, being the Minister of both, I have discovered information that is very usefu l to me because I happen to hear things in discussing with staff in one depar tment, I hear some thing that perhaps could be worked on or impr oved or changed in the other. So it has been an interesting exercise for me being Minister of both depar tments. I can see where there are some things that we could work more closely together to be more efficient. But as far as put ting them toge ther , that is not a subject I would really address now. We are running them as separate entitie s at the moment. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Can I take it then that ther e have been no discussions either at the departmental level, in terms of the two departments, or at the Cabinet level in terms of moving in the dir ect ion of merging tho se two polic y areas, th ose two sepa rate resp onsibilities? Mrs. Oleson: I am sur e the Mem ber will be aware, when she asks ques tions about what we have been discussing in Cabinet, that is comple tely out of order. I know I am not about to make re marks about what is dis cussed in Cabinet. I have had no discussions with either the department about mer ging the departments.

That is the answer that I will be giving at this time. I have not been discussing with the depar tment. Of cour se, what is discussed in Cabinet is another matter altogeth er. Ms. Waaylycia-Leis: I can appreciate the need to not reveal discussions that take place at the Cabinet level. I raise the quest ion because the Minister indicated that she has come to appreciate the similarities in the depa rtments. I wonder if she has come to appr eciate the differences between the two departments. Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I would agree to that. Ther e are differences in the two departments.

We continually keep asses sing both departments. lt is an exercise that a new Government goes through in assessing what we have, what we are doing, which way we are going. lt is part of the whole overall assessment of Govern ment and what structural changes you make. We have decided at this point on the se two de partments as separate entities. We are bringing in separate budgets; we are debating separate Es timates. That is where it is at the moment. Ma.

Wasylycia-Leia: There has historically been a move away from the treat ment of Ec onomic Security policy matters and Community Service policy matters and, in fact , towards a merg ing of Community Services more 694 along the lines of the Department of Health. I wonder if there has been any considerat' c..n to further coordinate efforts between those two departments to further enhance the del ivery system that is in place. What are the Minister's views, if I can ask that, Mr. Chair pers on, on the similaritie s between those two policy areas? Mrs. Oleaon: There are many functions that take place that are done.

There are offices run, as you we ll know, in conjunction with the Department of He alth. We pres ently, of course, are looking at how we can better del iver the services, whether individually separate in the departments or if there should be some changes. The bottom line is to get the service to the people. That is what we would be looking at, the most efficient and effective way of get ting the services to the pe ople, not whether or not we are interested in how many administration staff and all this. lt is getting the services to the people that is the bottom line as far we are concerned .

If we can do it better by amalgamating some functions, we will. * (16 00) Ms. Wasylycia-Leia: Has the Minister met with the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) to talk about the whole quest ion of community health care and Community Services and better coord ination, better planning between the two departments? If they have met and discussed this matter , are there any plans in the works? Is the Minister prepared to convey any of those det ails or table any reports along those lines? Mrs. Oleson: The Minister of Health (Mr .

Orch ard ) and I often discuss various things in our department and often meet to discuss these, but the act ual discussions of del ivery are going on between the staff in both departments. When we get some sort of a report on that aspect, then the Minister and I will sit down and discuss th at in more detai l. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Can the Minister give us any assurances that there will be no attempt now or in the futur e with the present Government to merge the departmental respons ibilities of Community Services and Eco nomic Security? Mrs.

Oleaon: I think the Mem ber would be expect ing a little too much if I carved this in stone somewhere and set it up in the Le gislative Building on whether or not we are going to amalgamate in the future. I am te lling her now and I have told her several times this afternoon, we have no plans at the moment to do this. But as for the future, there are all kinds of things that can happen in the future and I do not know how far into the future she wants me to make any commitments. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr.

Chairperson, can I ask the Minister then if I should take from her remarks that she has not ruled out the possibility of mer ging the Depart ment of Commun ity Services with the Department of Ec onomic Se curit y? Mrs. Oleson: Well, to the Mem ber, I try to keep an open mind about all these things and I am looking at

TUesda� August 23, 1988 them with a view of the best deliv ery of service. To say th at there will never be a change ever or tha t there might be one next week is not something within what we are doing now. Today we are de bating the Es timates of this department separate from the other department, and that is the way it is right now. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Could the Minister indic ate whether she sees the Department of Community Services -and I am speak ing now of the policy of that department in terms of its broadest policy aspec ts being closer to a department like Health or a department like Ec onomic Securit y? Mrs. Oleaon: The Depar tment of Community Services, as the Mem ber well knows, is a very far-ranging depar tment. There may be some functions that could be maybe, if you were looking into the future, amalgamated with one department, one with another . There is, as I say, nothing carved in stone about how th ings should be organized .

That is one of the functions of a Government, to look at the se things objectively from time to time. lt gives a new Gove rnment a great opportunity to look at things in an objective way and see what change s will be made. I repeat, I have not any changes to announce tod ay. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Just a couple of quick quest ions on the administrative side.

I would like to start by complime nting the Minister on having at least moved to red uce the size of th e Sup plem entar y Estimates by printing on both sides of the page. lt is an interest ing rest raint or attempt at res traint that we would presume is a major initiative on the part of this administra tion, or consistent cer tainly with the att itude you have taken in the past. I also want to comment on the wonderful charts and gr aphs in this presenta tion. I think they very clearly illustrate what is taking place in the department. Mrs. Oleson: Told you what you want to know, did it? Mr.

Alcock: Yes, they cer tainly provi de an awful lot of information, and I think whoever thought of des igning and printing those graphs was really a wizard within your depar tment. I would like to ask just a couple of quick que stions. I notice in the opera ting line in your office-now this is the half of your office that is supported by Community Services -that the number of staff have been cut, as you have mentioned, but the operating expenses remain the same? Mrs. Oleson: lt costs the same to run the office because ess entially ther e is the same amount or even more work being done.

The changes, as I pointed out earli er, are with pers onal staff. There is one Minister. I would not be hiring two executive assistants and two spe cial assistants the way two Ministers would. I hire one of each. Mr. Alcock: About half as many staff need the same amount of transpor tation money. Mrs. Oleson: Yes, the staff advise me th at I st ill need to travel as much as if I were two Ministers. I am 695 wondering where I am going to get the time.

But that has been allocated to me that there is transpor tation fu nd in th ere because ther e are func tions and interprovincial resp onsibilities that need to be met whether ther e is one Minister or two. Mr. Alcock: The communication expen ditur es in that line, what are they for? Mrs. Oleaon: That is the telephones and fax eq uipment and other eq uipment th at is still needed for communication. Ms. Gray: The Mem ber for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia Leis) alluded to possible difficulties or a move towards better coordi nation between the Department of He alth and the Department of Community Services.

Could the Minister tell us what the policy is in regard to services that are provided to the aging mentally handicapped individual, i.e., who provi de s the service? Who has the mandate for the service and where do those dollars come for the service, the Department of Health or the Department of Community Services? Mrs. Oleson: The mentally handicapped come under this dep artment.

The aged, I gue ss it is unclear really where they should fit into the whole pattern and with the del ivery by the two de partments that the y are being served, but the whole subject of where the y should be is something that the Minister who is in charge of Seniors (Mr . Neufeld) will be looking at. Ms.

Gray: The Minister hits the nail right on the head when she says it in fact is uncle ar, because what we have occurring and have had occurring in the last five or six years, which was never addressed by the previous administra tion, was the very grave difficult ies of clients and individuals who req uir e service and who may have the unfortunate distinction of having fallen somewhere between the two departments. There may be an aging mentally handicapped individual, and who provides the service if the y do req uire Home Care services and who picks up the shot?

What is occurring right now is that in fact fa milies and individuals are exp eriencing dela ys in service because there are arguments and disputes going on at reg ional levels which do not seem to be able to be clarified by the directorates in either He alth or Community Services as to who should provide the service.

My question would be to the Minister: What proactive steps is her department initiating with the Depar tment of Health to have the directorates quickly look at this ever -looming issue and come to some decision as to who is going to pick up the tab and who is going to take the resp onsibility for prov iding services to these individuals? * (1610 ) Mrs. Oleson: That is one of the topic s that is being assessed by the comm itte e between the two departments, and hopefully we can come to a quick res olution of that. Mr. Chairman: Just to rem ind Mem bers that the item under discussion is 1. (

b) Executive Suppor t: Sal aries.

TUesda� August 23, 1988 Ms. Gray: I am not sure of the proced ur e here. Can we move on to reference No. 2? Am I able to move on to ask questions in that area, or what is the process? Mr. Chairman: On item 1. (b)

(1) Sal aries, shall the item pass? (Agreed) Item 1. (b)(2), Other Expen di tur es, $66,300 -pass. 1. (

c) Research and Planning: Provides departmental co-ordination for policy, program and related budgetary planning and for cost-sharing;

(1) Salaries $752,000.00. Shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: Under the area of Research and Planning, and I think the Minister mentioned it in her comments at the beginning of this particular afternoon, the number of SYs in Research and Planning seems to have increased by two SYs from the previous administration, under the line Professional and Technical. Could the Minister explain to us exactly what these SYs are for? Mrs. Oleson: Tha t has been tr ansferred from Admi nistration and Finance as a consolidation of the cost-sharing unit.

Before I leave the mike, I would like to introd uce Bev Ann Murray who is the Assistant Director of Research and Planning. Ms. Gray: In the Research and Planning, the re is an indication that the managerial position held by Mr. Ken Maskiw, I under stand, has increased substantially from the last adjusted row. Could the Minister explain this rather large incr ease? Mrs. Oleson: Sorry about that length of time. There are actually two positions being paid for. They are Ken Maskiw as ac ting, and there was a Mr s. Proctor who was on exchange from Ontario. Her salary was included in that. She has since left. Ms.

Gray: Would the Minister then tell us currently what the salary is for the Manager of Research and Planning or for the Director of Research and Planning? Mrs. Oleson: $58,200.00. Ms. Gray: Would the Minister outline for us, there are 14 SYs who are part of the professi onal/te chnical suppo rt in Research and Pla nning. Could she give us an indication of the types of jobs or the job titles of people who compose th ose 14 SYs? Mrs. Oleaon: A number of th ose people do some of the cost-sharing negotiati ons with the federal Government.

They do tri partite negotiations, and they do policy analysis, interdepartmental coord ination. We cost-share for thr ee departments, so that is probably why there is a larger number there. We cost-share for Emplo yment Services and Economic Security and for Community Services and for Health. Ms. Gray: The Research and Planning area talks about some of their activities in regard to policy devel opment in the area of Natives and working with other

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-21
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 21.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6a17ad8f17bf9bfea3cf98dda354e3ba2ea8c1c1

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).