Manitoba Hansard — 17 April 2019 (Sitting 41, 41st Legislature, 4th Session)

41-4-41

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session – Forty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXXII No. 41 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, April 17, 2019 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-First Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP BINDLE, Kelly Thompson PC CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC CURRY, Nic Kildonan PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FLETCHER, Steven, Hon. Assiniboia Man. FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib.

GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Clifford Emerson Ind. GUILLEMARD, Sarah Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek Interlake PC JOHNSTON, Scott St. James PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLASSEN, Judy Kewatinook Lib. LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMONT, Dougald St. Boniface Lib. LAMOUREUX, Cindy Burrows Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MAYER, Colleen, Hon. St.

Vital PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REYES, Jon St. Norbert PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples Ind. SCHULER, Ron, Hon. St. Paul PC SMITH, Andrew Southdale PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WHARTON, Jeff, Hon.

Gimli PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC YAKIMOSKI, Blair Transcona PC

1313 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, April 17, 2019 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Deputy Clerk (Mr. Rick Yarish): It is my duty to inform the House that Madam Speaker is unavoidably absent. Therefore, in accordance with the statutes, I would ask Mr. Deputy Speaker to please take the Chair. Mr. Deputy Speaker (Doyle Piwniuk): O Eternal God–O Eternal and Almighty God, from all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee to frame such laws that may tend to the welfare and prosperity of our province.

Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only in which the accordance with Thy will, that we seek it with wisdom and know it with certainty and accomplish it perfectly for the glory and honour of Thy name and for the welfare of all our people. Amen. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Mr. Deputy Speaker: Introduction of bills? Committee reports? Tabling of reports? Ministerial statements? MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Sofia's Boutique Hon. Colleen Mayer (Minister of Crown Services): We all know that creating self -confidence begins from within, but looking good on the outside never hurts either.

Sofia's Boutique has been a part of Winnipeg's fashion community for 43 years, and after calling St. Vital home for 16 years, they will be closing their doors at the end of this month. Barbara [phonetic] Krahn, the owner of Sofia's, has been building relationships with customers and the community for 13 yea rs, and I would be like to congratulate her for being a destination store for classy everyday fashion. Sofia's features an array of casual, business and formal ladies' wear.

Not only will you leave this boutique looking and feeling fabulous, but you can be confident in knowing that your support – you've supported a local business and have pur - chased Canadian -made clothing. Madam Speaker, this isn't only a fashion store but it's also an owner and staff who truly care about the community. In 2016, 2017 and 2018 Sofia's also received the Consumer Choice Award in the category of favourite women's boutique. They–their relaxed atmosphere and personal attention allow women from sizes 2 to 22 to receive the advice they need to find the perfect outfit. We can't forget, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that every outfit needs the perfect pair of shoes and purse, and customers would never leave without finding their choice of accessories, too. For their dedication to bringing together fashion and comfort for each customer who shops at the boutique and for remaining a vibrant member of the Winnipeg community for over four decades, I would like to recognize Barb and the staff at Sofia's Boutique for helping women feel beautiful, both inside and out. I, along w ith two of my colleagues, who are devoted customers of Sofia's, wish you a happy retirement.

As one door closes, another one opens, and I hope it leads you on a new journey filled with happiness and good health. Thank you for all you've done for our com - munity. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Assiniboia–oh, the honourable member for St. Vital. Mrs. Mayer: I ask for leave to include the names of my guests in Hansard today. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to give the names in Hansard? [Agreed] Barb Krahn, Wanda McLean, Eva Unrau. Jason Kenney Hon. Steven Fletcher (Assiniboia): As always, I want to thank the Premier (Mr.

Pallister) for releasing me out of the clutches of the authoritarian monstrosity of the government caucus. However, today I'd like to celebrate one of the Premier's and I's former colleagues in Ottawa, Jason Kenney, the new Premier of Alberta.

1314 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019 Mr. Kenney is going to be a spectacular premier as he's one of the greatest politicians of the 21st century that we have seen in Canada. Mr. Speaker, as conservatives, we believe in the empowerment of the individual and allowing individuals to reach their full potential. Same is said for provinces. Alberta has not been able to reach its full potential and there's a way that Ma nitoba can help. We need to support Premier Kenney in his quest for pipelines, including opening up the idea of the Manitoba marine coast for access to tidal water.

Manitoba can also help Alberta with our green energy by transmitting our green power to hel p displace the fossil fuel electricity generated in Alberta. We need Alberta because they help us with our funding and transfers. Manitoba should help Alberta in any way we can so we all can reach our full potentials as individuals and as provinces. Thank you. Joel Grenier Mr. Dennis Smook (La Verendrye): I rise in this House today to honour a constituent of mine, Mr. Joel Grenier from St. Labre, Manitoba. Last week Joel received the Lieutenant Governor's Make a Difference Community Award.

I first g ot to know Joel back in 2010 because of his involvement in the St -Labre 200. It has amazed me how an event that started as a friendly competition between members of the Grenier family has grown to the size it is today and is a major fundraiser for southeastern Manitoba. Since it started 10 years ago, the St -Labre 200 has raised close to $100,000 dollars for local charities and collected thousands of pounds of food for local Helping Hands food bank.

Although there are many volunteers that make the St -Labre 200 what it is today, it has been Joel's vision and determination that has put the St -Labre 200 on the map. Joel is a master at bringing people together and working to achieve a common goal, creating an event that would serve as a great fundraising tool for local charities and be accessible to as many families as possible. The admission to the event is free; all they ask is that you bring a tin for the bin, to help the local Helping Hands food bank. He comes by his volunteering skills naturally.

The Grenier family are renowned for being involved in local organizations and helping build their community. Joel is a full -time farmer, husband and father of four. Besides being the chair of the St -Labre 200, he is also an avid volunteer on many community organizations. His unselfishness, personal drive and leadership abilities are a great asset to his com - munity. As I get to know Joel more and more, I can see his passion and devotion for his family and commu - nity. The hundreds of hours he volunteers deserv es recognition. Thank you. EIA Basic Needs Rate Mr.

Ted Marcelino (Tyndall Park): Twenty-five dollars a month, that is barely a drop in the bucket for government finances, but that money makes a huge difference in the lives of low -income Manitobans. Having that $25 job- seeking allowance means they can afford to take the bus to a job interview instead of walking across the city. It could cover the cost of resumé printing or a haircut or even a meal. * (13:40) Taking away that $25 from welfare recipients is truly one of this government's most heartless acts. Even worse is their characterization of people who receive the money.

They–the claim that the money is a handout, as the minister called it, discounts the lived experiences of people who rely on social assistance. The PC government is balancing the budget on the backs of the economically marginalized, and they are justifying these cuts by portraying Manitoba's most vulnerable as a drain on society. This government needs to realize that they are responsible for the well -being of all people in this province, not only the wealthy who vote for them.

Twenty-five dollars, 100 quarters that this government took from the pockets of decent Manitobans whose only mistake is trusting this government who is greedy enough to snatch these coins from their pockets. Thank you. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there any other statements?

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1315 Introduction of Guests Mr. Deputy Speaker: Before we start oral questions, we have seated in the gallery from the Kildonan-East Collegiate 58 grade 9 students from the–under the direction of Elliott Unger and Steve Collier. This group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Wiebe). ORAL QUESTIONS Mr. Deputy Speaker: Time for oral questions. Concordia and Seven Oaks Hospitals Request to Retain ER Services Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, a very good afternoon to you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and good luck keeping things in order in question period this afternoon. Health care is the one thing that Manitobans want more even than a respectful dialogue in the Chamber here today. It's the No. 1 priority for people in Manitoba: a strong health -care system. They want to be able to have access to acute care, an emergency room, when they need it, Mr. Speaker. But the Premier is not able to tell tens of thousands of people across northeast Winnipeg that they'll have access to acute care if he's closing the Concordia emergency room.

He won't be able to tell tens of thousands of people across northwest Winnipeg that they'll have access to acute care if he's closing the ER at Seven Oaks. So I would put the question to the Premier –he seems to be out of touch with the needs of Manitobans. Will he cancel his plan to close these emergency rooms and tell all the folks in northeast Winnipeg and northwest Winnipeg that he plans to keep the ERs at Seven Oaks and Concordia hospitals open? Hon.

Brian Pallister (Premier): First of all, I wanted to offer congratulations to my former colleague, Jason Kenn ey, on his decisive victory in yesterday's Alberta– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Pallister: I've just spoken to the Premier -Elect, and I am excited to work with him and other premiers as we move forward on issues of mutual concern for the betterment of our provinces and also the betterment of Canadians and the Canadian economy. I know that he shares our goals here for better job creation for our citizens.

I know that he shares our goals for better resource development and sustainable environmental policies, and I know also that he shares our goals for better delivery and better care sooner. Of cour se, in Calgary, currently there are three emergency rooms and their wait times are far, far lower because they concentrate their resources in that city so people can get the care they need when they need it. That's the kind of model that the Peachey report recommended to the previous NDP government– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable First Minister's time is up.

The honourable leader of the oppo sition–official opposition, a supplement question. Mr. Kinew: I know the Premier was going some - where with that answer, but he didn't quite land the plane, as they say. We know that what he is doing each and every day to the health-care system in Manitoba is causing a lot of chaos, a lot of chaos for the patients who used to be able to rely on acute care, pri mary care, emergency rooms, clinics right across the province, but also a lot of chaos for the nurses who work in the health-care system. We know that mandatory overtime at St. Boniface Hospital has gone through the roof.

This means nurses work a full shi ft, and then at the end of it they're told they can't go home. They have no choice but to stay and work another shift. That's leading to worse quality health care for the patients. It's also creating a great deal of stress for the nurses themselves. What’s the response from this government been? Well, it’s to cut supports for nurses and to cut spaces in nursing programs. On this side of the House we say that's the wrong approach and we're calling on the government today to take a new direction with resp ect to health care.

Can the Premier commit to such a plan that would begin by committing to keeping the emergency rooms at Concordia and Seven Oaks open? Mr. Pallister: We know that change is hard. It's hard for the member. It's hard for nurses in our s ystem as well. Perhaps one in five nurses is directly impacted by a number of the reforms that we're making to improve the system. But the nurses that I have

1316 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019 spoken with, and many have told me they would like to work in a system that works better for patie nts, they want patient-centred care and they want it to be delivered to people in a timely manner. I recognize the member is all doom and gloom on these issues, Madam Speaker –or, Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry–but the fact remains that Manitobans don't share that doom and gloom. What they share is an optimism that the mess that the NDP made can be cleaned up, and we are in the process of doing exactly that. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final question. Mr. Kinew: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the nurses that we hear from tell us that the health -care system is worse under this Premier than it has ever been in Manitoba, and we know why. It's because the Premier's starting point is not asking himself how he can improve health care, it's always him asking himself how can he cut costs, how can he reduce the amount of money spent in government. Now, the consequence in the real world for that cost cutting and those cutting of services are that we've seen many cancelled heart surg eries.

We can think of few procedures as serious as a heart surgery, and yet those have seen many skyrocketing cancellations under this Premier. In addition, we know that other surgeries are seeing their wait times increase, whether that's for hips, for knees or, indeed, for cataract surgeries. So that's the record that this Premier has put into place over his brief time in office, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and we know that it is time for a change. It's time to improve health care and fix the damage that this government is doing.

Will the Premier commit to paving the way for such a change by keeping the emergency rooms in Winnipeg open? Mr. Pallister: In the case of MLAs and caucus size, of course more is better, and our caucus demonstrates that every day in the work they do.

But in the case of emergency rooms more is not necessarily better, and that is why so many cities across the country, so many provinces have acted appropriately and according to exper t recommendation, to centralize all their testing and capacities, their expertise and their services in areas where they can be provided effectively to patients without moving them from one facility to another as the NDP did with thousands of Manitobans. The NDP had this advice. They failed to listen to it.

They created a mess where we had the longest wait times in Canada, and thousands of Manitoba families can attest to the fact they had to wait far too long for health care, Madam Speaker –or, Mr. Speaker. The fact remains that the NDP created a massive mess in health care: 10th out of 10 and falling further behind ninth, and we are cleaning up that mess. And Canadian institute of health information says we're the only province making real progress. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Small Class Sizes Government Position Mr.

Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): You know, when I talk to parents who have school-aged kids in Manitoba, they tell me that they want their c hild to have as much one -on-one time with their teacher as possible. That's because that's when–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –the real learning happens. It's through individualized attention and the ability to help tailor the educational experience to a young person's need that we can prepare our youth in this province for their bright and hopeful futures.

However, we know what this government has done in the education system: they have taken the caps off the class -size initiative. Now, we know that that's a mistake, that particularly in the early years, when we're talking about kindergarten to grade 3 especially, that it's very important to ensure that class sizes remain small so that teachers can devote more individualized attention, more one -on-one time with the teacher. So I'd ask the Premier simply to show us one parent in the province who would rather have their kid have less one-on-one time with their teacher. Hon.

Brian Pallister (Premier): Well, given that class sizes are maintained at the same ratio as they were when the NDP were in power, I think the premise of the member's lies–falls flat. * (13:50)

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1317 I would also say that showing him a parent who was satisfied or dissatisfied with a teacher would probably depend on the teacher, and so, Mr. Speaker, I would say to the member, teachers are key to influencing the education productivity and the outputs of students and their performance. [interjection] We recognize that, and none of us would be here without the support of teachers. If the member would like to ask me another question while I'm answering this one, I'd appreciate if he'd speak a little more loudly so I could hear it. But the fact remains, Mr.

Chair, educational system in our province is strong and a priority for us. That's why we're investing over $400 million more – [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Pallister: –in the educational system than the NDP ever did. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplemental question. Mr. Kinew: Six thousand, three hundred and forty-five–6,345–that's how many more kids there are in Manitoba classrooms over the last three years. But we know that the Pallister government's funding–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr.

Kinew: –for education has not increased– [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –with inflation, never mind with the growth of the number of students in classrooms right across the province. Again, class sizes matter. That's what teachers tell us. That's what students tell us, and we know that even when the Premier and these Cabinet ministers were in opposition they also agreed that class sizes were important.

Now, apparently, something changed in their ideology when they moved over to government, but we still believe that keeping class sizes small is very, very important for the students in Manitoba. So will the Premier please reconsider the cut that he's made and commit to keeping class sizes small in Manitoba? Mr. Pallister: Seven, that's the number of new schools we're building to help students. Tenth, that's where our students ranked in performance under the NDP in reading; tenth, that's where our students ranked across Canada in science; tenth, that's where our children ranked in terms of math results.

The member is standing here today trying to defend the system that the NDP broke. I welcome him in his attempt. But what they broke, we will fix. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a thir d, supplemental question. Mr. Kinew: The amount of people who believe this Premier's answers on education: zero, Madam Speaker–Mr. Deputy Speaker, rather. Now, we know that this government actually went out and asked teachers, how can we improve the edu cation system? And they were told, well, address the barriers that kids are facing before they enter the classroom.

That means focusing on poverty, focusing on mental health and helping kids overcome the other forms of adversity they face outside of the schoolyard. The Premier didn't like that answer, so he's not pursuing any sort of action that would address those outside-of-the-classroom barriers which would produce real results in terms o f education for kids in Manitoba. Instead, he's hopped into the Wayback Machine and they're pulling out the Conservative Cabinet of the 90s to come back and make cuts to the education system of 2019. We say that that's the wrong approach, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Would the Premier simply abandon this misguided commission–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –and instead commit to keeping class sizes small? Mr. Pallister: Throwing people under the bus seems to be a specialty for the NDP leader. He did it to his former premier. He does it to his colleagues frequently as well, I'm told, and he's now doing it to the former NDP minister who serves as co -chair of the panel, Janice McKinnon, and the expert panel that's been assembled. Regardless of partisan interests, Madam Speaker–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.

1318 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019 Mr. Pallister: –or Mr. Speaker, I do think that impugning the integrity of expert panel participants who are opening consultations to all Manitobans is pretty low, even for the member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Kinew). The number of government members who believe the member when he makes assertions is zero, too, Madam Speaker, but I expect the number of his own caucus colleagues who believe him is less than three as well. Safe Consumption Site Request for Government Support Mrs. Bernadette Smith (Point Douglas): The individuals who form–[interjection] Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order. Mrs. Smith: –'overdirth'–Overdose Awareness Manitoba have, unfortunately, had the experience of dealing with the loss of a loved one waiting to get into a treatment facility. They have now dedicated their lives to preventing any other families from having to deal with a loved one dying. This group is calling on this government to create a medically assisted detox facility, a safe consumption site and support public education on overdose awareness, among other things.

Will the minister today get up and support this group and open a safe consumption site here in Manitoba so that no more Manitobans have to die? Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Health, Seniors and Active Living): Mr. Deputy Speaker, it was only a few days ago that that member was harshly criticized by the Manitoba media for misleading all Manitobans about our recent paper, both the v eracity of the methodology and what the paper actually suggested. But today there's a real report out by CIHI, and it indicates that,

whereas the member continues to say things are getting worse by the day, it says it's getting better: 62 per cent of all patients across the country say that they had a very good experience in a hospital experience, but it's even better in Manitoba. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Point Douglas, on a secondary question. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The honourable member for Point Douglas, on a secondary question. Mrs. Smith: Safe consumption sites save lives, but people wanting to access these services simply can't because this government's ideology.

People have difficulty navigating the complex system. In many cases, people need detox actually prior to going into a treatment centre, and the wait -lists continue to grow to even get into these treatment centres. The petition currently being circulated by Overdose Awareness Manitoba–again, parents whose loved ones have passed away –is calling on this government to open a safe– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member's time is up. Mr.

Friesen: The CIHI report goes on to say it's actually a full 64 per cent of Manitoba patients who said about their experience in the hospital: a very good experience; but another 23 said: of –a good experience. That's 87 per cent of all Manitobans, and that information is based not on 35 responses, but on 10,000. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Point Douglas, on a third question. Mrs. Smith: It's clear that this government and this minister doesn't care about Manitobans and – [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mrs. Smith: –the families who are–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mrs.

Smith: –struggling with addictions in this province. They sit idly by and do nothing while families are dealing with their loved ones having to navigate a system where there's not enough treatment centres, and what does this government do? Nothing. So we're calling on them today to open a safe consumption site here in Manitoba. This is what Manitobans want. Twenty-five thousand Manitobans are struggling wi th addictions, not to mention their families, and this government does nothing. Shame on them. Mr. Friesen: While the member's statement didn't have a question, I would say this to her. [interjection] Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Friesen: She never has a question–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Order. Order.

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1319 Mr. Friesen: That member never asks a question about the additional capacity in -facility that we have created by doubling that capacity for women at the Health Sciences Cen tre. She never asks a question about the RAAM clinics that are meeting thousands of Manitobans at the point of the need. She pretends everything is simple. She says there's one magic solution. Who says there isn't? Shannon Phillips, the NDP candidate in Lethbridge. There are no easy fixes.

You are living in a fantasy world, she says, if you think you can unlock this where –with one or two easy things. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Honourable minister's time is up. * (14:00) Provincial Crime Rate Increase Judicial System Staff Levels Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): There's a wave of crime occurring across Winnipeg and certainly across Manitoba. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms. Fontaine: In 2018 property crimes in Winnipeg increased by 28 per cent. The most recent data from Stats Canada shows a similar province for the province: robberies increased by 40 per cent in just the last two years.

Yet in the midst of this wave of crime, the Pal lister government is cutting positions that administer justice. How is it that crime can be way up and yet the Province is cutting custody corrections and court operations? How does this make any sense, Deputy Speaker? Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of J ustice and Attorney General): The member is just factually incorrect in her comments. Madam–Mr. Speaker, the real crime was the mess that we were left –we inherited –by the NDP government–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Cullen: –previously. Mr.

Speaker, the budget in Justice was completely out of control, results were not obtained. We have actually got the budget under control in Justice so we can make strategic investments like an increase on $6.8 million for policing across Manitoba just this past year. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a second supplement question. Ms. Fontaine: The minister knows what he just put on the record is absolutely wrong. In the last three years Manitoba Justice – [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms. Fontaine: –has cut 87 positions, Deputy Speaker.

This year's Estimates say that the minister will cut over 40 positions in court operations and in custody corrections. The minister is cutting the administration of justice in the middle of a crime crisis and wave. This doesn't make any sense, Deputy Speaker. We already know the Pallister government isn't interested in addressing the root causes of why people become in conflict with the law. Their poverty plan is inadequate. But now they're not interested in addressing the crisis in the justice system. When will this minister actually do something and start doing his job? Mr.

Cullen: Clearly, we are making changes within Justice, and we actually, contrary to what the NDP had, we actually have a plan. We have a criminal justice modernization–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Cullen: –strategy in place and we're achieving very positive results. We have better access to justice for Manitobans than ever under the ND P. We're making very positive steps forward. We have 16 transformation capital projects under way which are 'achoosing' – achieving very positive results for Manitobans. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a final supplement question. Ms.

Fontaine: The Premier's (Mr. Pallister) poverty plan is inadequate and there's a lack of provincial leadership in dealing with the meth crisis. Now we know that crime is way up. Winnipeg police say the numbers of firearms they encounter, and I quote, are numbers they've never seen before, end quote, with the problem only getting worse. In a streak of violence last year there were 12 separate gun i ncidents in just over four days, including a

1320 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019 random shooting, a shotgun attack and two police standoffs. But in the midst of this crime wave the minister has cut 87 positions from people that administer justice in our province. When will he start taking this issue seriously and start doing his job? Mr. Cullen: I will indicate to the House that we've – in this year's budget we've set aside $2.3 million specifically to deal with the illicit drug trade here in Manitoba, and we will continue to invest in police resources.

In fact, our proceeds of crime, we invested millions of dollars back to make sure that police officers have the resources they need. We've also added money to Victim Services supports as well. We're working with communities, in terms of community mobilization, to make sure that people have the resources they need, Madam Speaker. We are getting the job done on behalf of Manitobans. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable official opposition–the Leader of the Second Opposition. Manitoba's Senior Citizens Consumer Protection Mr.

Dougald Lamont (Leader of the Second Opposition): Our caucus routinely welcomes delegations from consumer groups who want us to do more to protect Manitobans because of this province's weak regulations. For many years, seniors in Manitoba have been getting swindled by door -to-door sales people who are, in fact, only selling scams. These are not just aggressive sales tactics; these are predators. Complaints to the provincial office have doubled in the past year and Hydro received 200 complaints about one particular company, Prairie Home Comfort.

This government has been sadly silent while Manitoba seniors and our most vulnerable are being duped. This government has the ability to end this practice, yet they seem to have only one priority, and it's not protecting seniors. Can the Premier tell the House: Is the govern - ment is planning to do anything at all to protect seniors from these types of scams? Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I thank the member opposite for that question. We realize that too many Manitobans are falling victim to the high -pressure sales tactics that are being used.

Certainly, people can report that to our Consumer Protection Office. Our consumer protection people are dealing with a number of cases across Manitoba and investigating this–cases. In fact, some of these situations have been resolved quite successfully. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Second Opposition, on a supplement question. Community Supports and PCH Beds Mr. Lamont: Mr. Speaker, sen iors in Manitoba are being abandoned by this government.

They –the Premier has promised big on PCH beds, but won't put his money where his mouth is, and they seem to be walking back on every announcement they've made unless it's being fully funded by the fe deral government. They've scrapped the special drugs program. They've–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Lamont: –raised costs or outright cancelled seniors community programming and information organizations, and they have raised property taxes. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr.

Lamont: While I was disappointed, I wasn't all that surprised to hear thi s government is planning to close down the 65 transitional beds at River Ridge II that they only opened two years ago. How can the Premier justify these cuts? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): Speaking of swindling seniors, Madam Speaker, the federal carbon tax, which the member supports so avidly, will do exactly that. It will actually make it more expensive for seniors in Manitoba to volunteer or travel to a store to shop, and then, once they get to the store, to shop at the store.

They will also–it will also make it more expensive for seniors in many parts of the province to heat their homes. The member supports these things. Swindling seniors is not a good idea, Madam Speaker, and I don't know why he supports it when his federal colleagues do it.

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1321 Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Second Opposition, on a final supplement. Mr. Lamont: It's really terrible, Madam –Mr. Speaker, that the Premier believes that caring for our seniors is a burden for his bottom line. Seniors need protections from predatory sales - people. They need safe, affordable housing with supports based on their needs, and not just empty promises of personal-care-home beds without the funding to actually build them.

They need community programming and advocacy groups to help them stay healthy and navigate our complicated systems. But instead this government is dismantling the health -care system. They're delivering higher property taxes and hydro bills. They're decimating community supports. There's a lack of supportive housing and no protections from predatory sales tax– tactics, and now they are closing transitional beds for–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Lamont: –seniors. Why does this government have no regard for our seniors, and why won't they step up and stop these cuts? Mr.

Pallister: Well, in addition to the absolute inaccuracy of the

preamble, I think what the member is missing is the fact that we're making life better for Manitoba seniors. We've erased the wait times –erased the wait times–for getting into personal -care-home beds that plagued seniors across this province, in many regions of this province for years, and when –and that issue was not addressed by the previous government at all. We've shortened waits for services like knee replacements, like cataracts. We've increased the availability of MRIs.

We've made significant improvements that have been noted by national experts as being better than other provinces have made and, in additi on, we have cut ambulance fees, which affects seniors, of course, profoundly, in half. We're making great progress to assist seniors in having a better health -care system that gives them better care sooner, and the member should recognize that as more and more seniors across the province are certainly recognizing it first -hand in their own homes. Action on Climate Change Greenhouse Gas Emissions Mr.

Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): Tragically and sadly, the green scam in Manitoba continues. Climate change is the single largest threat that humanity has ever faced, and new numbers are out today showing just how bad the situation is becoming in Manitoba. Rather than emissions going down, as climate science is insisting must happen if we are to survive, emissions in Manitoba are up. Would the Premier, the man who promised all Manitobans we'd be the cleanest province in Canada, does he have the courage– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. * (14:10) Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Order. Mr.

Altemeyer: Does the Premier have the– [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Altemeyer: –courage to stand up today and inform all of his backbenchers just how wrong they were to believe him, or do I have to provide the data in my next question? Hon. Rochelle Squires (Minister of Sustainable Development): Green scam: I believe that that's what Manitobans called the NDP plan on climate action. The green scam: I believe that that's what Manitobans called Gary Doer's statement that –when he said that, if I don't reduce carbon emissions in Manitoba, I'll put my job on the line.

And I would note for the House that Gary Doer's no longer here. Our government is committed to cleaning up the mess that the NDP did. We're reducing carbon emissions. We announced a histor ic $102- million Conservation Trust the other day to do–to deal with carbon 'sequestion' projects on the –in wetlands restoration and carbon sequestration projects all throughout Manitoba to lower our carbon footprint. I wish members opposite would get on board. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley, on a second supplement question. [interjection] Order. Mr. Altemeyer: Predictably, Mr.

Acting Speaker, I have to do this government's work for them. I would like to table the documents. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.

1322 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019 Mr. Altemeyer: These come directly from the United Nations. They show quite clearly – [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. It's starting to get a little loud in here, and we need some decorum in here so we can hear the individual speaker. Mr. Altemeyer: Thank you for stepping in, Mr. Acting Deputy Speaker. I know they don't want this information to be on the record, but here's the truth. Contrary to the vitriol from the other side, last year emissions in Ma nitoba increased by 700,000 metric tons of CO 2 in Manitoba.

In contrast, the previous four years, they increased by 0.1 per cent per year. This year alone: 3.3 per cent. Cleanest and greenest? Not even true. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member's time is up. Ms. Squires: You know, Madam Speaker, I understand why member opposite is confused. He doesn't understand what a real clean, green environment plan looks like. He sat idly by for years while his government did actually nothing.

And when the Au ditor General reported that his government had absolutely no plan and then they turned around and put a plan on the back of a napkin that the Auditor General rejected, the member opposite said absolutely nothing. Our government is committed to working with all user groups. We're working with all Manitobans to lower our carbon footprint and to all transition together to a low-carbon economy. Where we're getting action for the environment, members opposite failed year after year after year. Mr. Deputy S peaker: The honourable member for Wolseley, on a third, supplementary question. Mr.

Altemeyer: Seven-hundred-thousand-metric-ton increase in just their first full year in office. Mr. Acting Speaker, this is nothing to do with the minister. This is the Premier driving this agenda, and it's going to get worse in 2018–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Altemeyer: –because in 2018, as of January 1st, bus fares went up in Winnipeg and routes were cancelled in Brandon because of this government. The solar subsidy ended. Power smart was forbidden to do any public education.

Our electric buses were taken away from us in October, and there's 6,000 more buildings using natural gas now than when he became Premier. He needs to realize climate change is not going away, neither are the voices outside this building, and he owes it to future– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Time for question is expired. I just want to call the member from Wolseley that–parliamentary language, I just wanted to make sure that when he said the, not even true, it's basically unparliamentary, so Hon.

Brian Pallister (Premier): In terms of conservation and respect for future generations, the member was part of a government that doubled our provincial debt in six years. That's disrespectful to the future children who will have to pay back all those taxes and the interest on them. The previous government had absolutely no gains made on social programs such as education, where they were dead last; health care, where they were dead last; social services and dealing with poverty, where they were dead last across the country. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr.

Pallister: The legacy of that government –if you're concerned about legacy, as the member claims to be–is that they were dead last and not serving the needs of today's generations or the future. And when it came to environmental stewardship, they were dead last, too. They didn't have a plan: no plan, no action, no progress. I don't need advice from that member. Nobody on this side of the House needs advice from that member on getting results. We'll get results beca use we believe climate change is real and we're going to address the challenge of facing it head-on. Fiscal Stabilization Account Balance Update Mrs.

Sarah Guillemard (Fort Richmond): My mother always taught me that louder is not always righter and typically reveals that you're not really fact-based when you're speaking. But that would explain–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mrs. Guillemard: –why the NDP left Manitobans a legacy of debt, decay and decline, and, of course,

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1323 higher taxes. The NDP government withdrew funds from the Fiscal Stabilization Account, also known as the rainy day account, to pay for their reckless spending. Can the Minister of Finance please provide an update to the House on the current state of the Fiscal Stabilization Account? Hon. Scott Fielding (Minister of Finance): Of course, it was a previous PC government here in Manitoba that had the wisdom to set up the rainy day fund, Madam–Mr. Deputy Speaker.

The fund is a fiscal shock absorber to deal with things like floods, as well as things like downturns in the economy. One thing that all Manitobans know is that the NDP drained that fund by over $750 million. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Fielding: Our government is not going to make that same mistake. We have put over $50 million last year in the rainy day fund, over $50 million this year. There's over $265 million more in that rainy day fund. We are going to protect Manitobans, while the NDP left them the cold. Indigenous Communities Suicide Rate Ms.

Judy Klassen (Kewatinook): During yesterday's health announcement between my federal cousins and this government, I was shocked to hear the Minister for Health state that there had been zero losses in this province when he was questioned about his delaying of the signing of the health agreement. As the Minister of Health, he should be very aware that in my riding we have faced many suicides while he and his government sat back and did nothing. Can the minister tell this House how many suicides occurred in the time they sat idly by? Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Health, Seniors and Active Living): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, with respect to the member, she is choosing to mischaracterize what was said yesterday. That member knows that when it came to the bilateral agreement on shared health priorities, Manitoba was clear. We stood up to get a better deal for Manitobans in mental health, addictions and home-care investments. What we said is that there was nothing l ost in the time it took to negotiate that better deal for Manitobans that we did get. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Kewatinook, on a supplementary question. Ms. Klassen: Yes, I was there. I heard, my very own ears, what he said. Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, well -balanced people do not commit suicide. We have repeatedly asked for mental health resources and facilities for our indigenous and northern regions. If this government gave a thought to all indigenous people and the crisis we have been facing, it would not have taken them so long to sign. How dare he say zero losses in this province. It was such a slap in the face. Do indigenous lives matter to this minister? How many suicides have occurred since that party took government in 2016? Hon.

Brian Pallister (Premier): It's absolutely, totally inappropriate and unjustified; suicide is obviously one of the most hurtful events that can occur in a family's life and a community's life, and to try to link it to a federal funding negotiation is deplorable. I know the member is anxious to move to Ottawa with her political career, and I understand and accept her desire to do so. She can now work with a federal government that has responsibilities to her communities.

We are willing to be partners, and that is why we have worked with the federal government diligently on mental health issues, and we'll continue to do that. But to try to link these two things is totally inappropriate, and I don't think the member should do anything except reconsider the linkage that she's making today. It's hurtful to assert and to attack a person on the basis of these types of things. I think it's unjustified and, frankly, I think it's deplorable. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Kewatinook, on a final supplementary question. Bilateral Health Agreement Ms.

Klassen: I know it's pointless to ask for an apology from any member on that side of the House. * (14:20)

1324 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019 We've seen time and time again when the federal government invests additional targeted funds here in the province, any associated organizations face cuts. Even our reporters were trying to discern this information from the minister and he did not respond. Can the minister tell us how much of these additional dollars will be given to help better the lives of my people in the North or –his department already making the associated cuts? Mr. Pallister: This government takes the issues facing indigenous Manitobans totally seriously.

We're focusing on helping direct, not only resources, but better out comes to communities. We're working in every capacity co -operatively with indigenous leadership around the province. The member should recognize that the federal government, in changing its funding formula, will take $2.2 billion away from Manitoba over the next decade. She needs to understand that this is not and never should be a partisan issue, but rather should be something we can join hands together in addressing. That is exactly the approach we'll continue to take. Home Energy Products Door-to-Door Sales Ban Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, my question–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Maloway: –is to the Premier. Manitoba's Consumer Protection Office reports that there's been a huge increase in high-pressure and unethical door-to-door sales practices. Complaints to their office doubled in just one year and a recent – [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Maloway: –investigative report by the media reported an explosion of complaints by the sales of home energy products–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Maloway: –which is furnaces and the air filters.

Will the Premier follow the lead of provinces like Alberta and Ontario and ban door -to-door sales of home energy products? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): We're committed to strengthening the legislation, Mr. Acting Speaker, to strengthen the protections for Manitobans. Unfortunately, I don't believe that the member is speaking from a position of strength, given the fact that the NDP went door-to-door around the province, knocked, looked people right in the eye and promised them they wouldn't raise their taxes.

Talk about swindling, talk about misrepresentation, talk about all –and, frankly, thievery from the kitchen tables of Manitoba families. That member was part of it. He was so embar - rassed about it that in the next election he actually took the NDP right off his yard sign. It led to a rebellion among the NDP members. They fought each other over it and they were all embarrassed and ashamed, and, Mr. Acting Speaker, they should have been ashamed for that kind of swindling behaviour and thievery. Mr. Depu ty Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. PETITIONS Mr. Deputy Speaker: Time for petitions.

Early Learning and Child-Care Programs Ms. Amanda Lathlin (The Pas): The background to the petition is as follows:

(1) Early learning and child- care programs in Manitoba require increased funding to stabilize and support a system that is in jeopardy.

(2) Licensed, not -for-profit early learning and child-care programs have received no new operating funding in over thr ee years, while the cost of living has continued to increase annually.

(3) High-quality licensed child care has a lasting, positive impact on children's development, is a fundamental need for Manitoba families and contributes to a strong economy.

(4) The financial viability of these programs is in jeopardy if they cannot meet the fiscal responsibility of achieving a balanced budget, as all operating expenses continue to increase.

(5) The workforce shortage of trained early childhood educators has conti nued to increase; quality child care is dependent on a workforce that is skilled and adequately renumerated.

(6) Accessible, affordable and quality early learning and child- care programs must be available to all children and families in Manitoba. We peti tion the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1325 To urge the provincial government to increase funding for licensed, not -for-profit child -care programs in recognition of the importance of early learning and child care in Manitoba, which will also improve quality and stability in the workforce. This petition has been signed by fine –many, many Manitobans. Mr. Deputy Speaker: In accordance with rule 133-6, when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by this House. Lake Winnipeg Fisheries Consultation Mr. Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): Yes, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows: On March 11th, 2019, the Manitoba government announced steps to address the sustainability of the Lake Winnipeg fishery. As part of this initiative, the Manitoba government offered the option of voluntary individual quota entitlement buybacks to fishers working on Lake Winnipeg. Fishers were given until March 21st, 2019, (11 days, eight business days) to decide whether to voluntarily surrender their individual quota entitlement.

The deadline for completed docu mentation is March 31st, 2019, (21 days or 15 business days). The quota entitlement surrender is permanent.

(2) The Manitoba Department of Sustainable Development states that it is committed to "develop comprehensive shared management strategies in consultation with First Nations, Metis and licensed hunters and anglers to give local communities a greater voice and ensure long- term sustainability of our fish and wildlife populations."

(3) The Manitoba government did not consult with fishers prior to the March 11th announcement. A 30-day consultation period was announced at the same time as the voluntary quota entitlement buyback initiative.

(4) Fishers did not receive copies of the documentation and data regarding the state fish stocks in Lake Winnipeg that were the basis of the Manitoba government's decision to proceed with the quota entitlement buyback initiative.

(5) The quota entitlement buyback will have a significant impact on the economy and well -being of the Fisher River Cree Nation and other First Nations communities. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: In support of the Fisher River Cree Nation, we request that the government of Manitoba begin a process of consultation with indigenous peoples about the future of commercial fisheries on Lake Winnipeg. Signed by Richard Baschell, Mary Geree [phonetic] and Gunther Carmen [phonetic]. Daylight Saving Time Mr.

Cliff Graydon (Emerson): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And this is the background to this petition: The loss of sleep associated with the beginning of daylight saving time has serious consequences for physical and mental health and has been linked to increases in traffic accidents and workplace injuries.

(2) According to the Manitoba Public Insurance news release, collision data collected in 2014 showed that there was a 20 per cent increase in collisions on Manitoba roadways following the spring daylight savings time change when compared to all other Mondays in 2014.

(3) Daylight saving time is associ ated with a decrease in productivity the day after the clocks are turned forward with no corresponding increase in productivity when the clocks are turned back.

(4) There is no conclusive evidence that daylight saving time is effective in reducing energy con- sumption. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to amend The Official Time Act to abolish daylight saving time in Manitoba effective November 4th, 2019, resulting in Manitoba remaining on C entral Standard Time, throughout the year and in perpetuity. And this petition is signed by Day Donbrowski [phonetic], Tiffany Fell, Brian Duval and many, many more fine Manitobans. Early Learning and Child-Care Programs Ms.

Flor Marcelino (Logan): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to the petition is as follows:

1326 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019

(1) Early learning and child- care programs in Manitoba require increased funding to stabilize and support a system that is in jeopardy.

(2) Licensed, not -for-profit early learning and child-care programs have received no new operating funding in over three years, while the cost of living has continued to increase annually.

(3) High -quality licensed child care has a lasting, positive impact on children's development, is a fundamental need for Manitoba families and contributes to a strong economy.

(4) The financial viability of these programs is in jeopardy if they cannot meet the fiscal responsibility of achieving a balanced budget, as all operating expenses continue to increase.

(5) The workforce shortage of trained early childhood educators has continued to increase; quality child care is dependent on a workforce that is skilled and adequately remunerated. * (14:30)

(6) Accessible, affordable and quality early learning and child- care programs must be available to all children and families in Manitoba. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to in - crease funding for licensed, not-for-profit child-care programs in recognition of the importance of early learning and child care in Manitoba, which will also improve and –improve quality and stability in the workforce. Signed by many, many Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Ms. Cindy Lamoureux (Burrows): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. To the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, the background to this petition as–is as follows:

(1) Early learning and chil d-care programs in Manitoba require increased funding to stabilize and support a system that is in jeopardy.

(2) Licensed, not -for-profit early learning and child-care programs have received no new operating funding in over three years, while the cost of living has continued to increase annually.

(3) High -quality licensed child care has a lasting, positive impact on children's development, is a fundamental need for Manitoba families and contributes to a strong economy.

(4) The financial viability of these programs is in jeopardy if they cannot meet the fiscal responsibility of achieving a balanced budget, as all operating expenses continue to increase.

(5) The workforce shortage of trained early childhood educators has continued to increase; quality child care is dependent on a workforce that is skilled and adequately 'remunumerated'.

(6) Accessible, affordable and quality early learning and child- care programs must be available to all children and families in Manitoba. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to increase funding for licensed, not -for-profit child-care programs in recognition of the importance of early learning and child care in Manitoba, which will also improve quality and stability in the workforce. This petition is signed by many, many Manitobans. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

The background to the petition is as follows: Early learni ng and child -care programs in Manitoba require increased funding to stabilize and support a system that is in jeopardy. Licensed, not-for-profit early learning and child- care programs have received no new operating funding in over three years, while the cost of living has continued to increase annually. High-quality licensed child care has a lasting, positive impact on children's development, is a fundamental need for Manitoba families and contributes to a strong economy.

The financial viability of th ese programs is in jeopardy if they cannot meet the fiscal responsibility of achieving a balanced budget, as all operating expenses continue to increase. The workforce shortage of trained early childhood educators has continued to increase;

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1327 quality child care is dependent on a workforce that is skilled and adequately remunerated. Accessible, affordable and quality early learning and child- care programs must be available to all children and families in Manitoba. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to increase funding for licensed, not -for-profit child-care programs in recognition of the importance of early learning and child care in Manitoba, which will also improve quality and stability in the workforce.

Signed by Wanda Villers, Dave Villers, Brooke Villers and many, many others. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Any further petitions? Grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I'm now advising the House that the Speaker received a letter from the Official Opposition House Leader (Ms. Fontaine) regarding the official opposition's second selected bill for this section. As a reminder of the House, rule 24 permits each recognized party to select up to three private member bills per session to proceed to a second reading vote.

According to the House, we'll resume second reading debate on Bill 228, The Sikh Heritage Month Act, starting at 10 a.m. tomorrow, April 18, 2019, with the question to be put forward at 10:50 a.m. that morning. Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): Mr. Deputy Speaker, on House business.

Could you please canvass the House for leave to allow the following: (1) waiving the provisions in rule 2(9) and 2(10) so that instead of announcing the official opposition's designated bills and proceeding to consider the specified bills now, the House will instead immediately resolve into the Committee of the Whole to complete consideration of Bill 16, The Budget Implementation and Tax Statutes Amendment Act, 2019 and, (2) following the committee consideration, Bill 16 shall then be reported to the House, imme - diately after which the House shall immediately proceed to the steps identified in rule 2(9) and 2(10) related to the designated and specified bills.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there leave for the House to follow–allow the following: (1) waiving the provisi on of rules 2.9 and 2.10 so that the –instead of announcing the official opposition designated bills and proceeding to consider the specified bills now, the House is instead resolved into the Committee of the Whole to complete the consideration of Bill 16, the budget 'imepetation' and tax statutes amendment act, 2019.

The following committee's considered– Bill 16 shall then be reported to the House immediately after which the House shall immediately proceed to the steps identified in the rules 2.9 and 2(10) related to designated and specific bills. Agreed? [Agreed] As agreed, then, the House will now resolve into the Committee of the Whole. Mr. Deputy Speaker, will you please take the Chair. * (14:40) COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE Mr. Deputy Chairperson (D ennis Smook): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of the Whole please come to order.

As previously agreed, the Chair will call clauses in blocks that conform to pages, with the understanding that we will stop at any particular clause or clauses where memb ers may have comments, questions or amendments to propose. Bill 16–The Budget Implementation and Tax Statutes Amendment Act, 2019 Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Currently under debate – [interjection] For clarification, we are considering continuing consideration of The Budget Implementation and Tax Statutes Amendment Act, 2019, Bill 16. Currently under debate is the amendment to clause 18, moved by the honourable o pposition House leader.

The floor is open for debate. Hearing no further comments, is the commit tee ready for the question?

1328 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019 An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The question before the committee is as follows: moved by the honourable opposition House leader THAT Clause 18 of the Bill be replaced with the following: 18 The first paragraph of the overview to

Part 10 is amended by striking out "10% " wherever it occurs and submitting "5%"–substituting "5%". Amendment–pass; clause 18 as amended–pass. Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Chair, could you please canvass the committee for leave to revert to consideration of clauses 13 through 17, to allow the questions to be put again on those clauses? Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Is there leave of the committee to revert to consideration o f clauses 13 through 17, to allow the questions to be put again on those clauses? [Agreed] As agreed then, we will now reconsider clauses 13 through 17 of this bill.

As agreed, we shall –as agreed then, shall clauses 13 through 17 pass? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I hear a no. Clauses 13 through 17 are accordingly defeated. Shall clause 19 pass? An Honourable Member: No. Ms. Fontaine (St. Johns): I have an amendment, Mr. Chair. I move THAT Clause 19 of the Bill be replace d with the following: 19(1) Subsection 73(1) is amended by striking out "10%" wherever it occurs and substituting "5%". 19(2) Subsection 73(2) is amended in the description of E in the formula by striking out "50%" wherever it occurs and substituting "25%". Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: Committee will pause while we distribute copies of the amendment. It has been moved by the opposition House leader THAT– An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The amendment is in order. The floor is now open for questions. Seeing as no questions, is the committee ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Question. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The question before the committee is as follows: THAT Clause 19 of the Bill be replaced with the following– An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Dispense. Amendment–pass. Clause 19 as amended–pass.

Shall clause 20 pass as amended? [interjection] Oh, sorry. Shall clause 20 pass? An Honourable Member: No. Ms. Fontaine: I move THAT Clause 20 of the Bill is replaced with the following: 20(1) Subsection 74(1) is amended by striking out "10%" and substituting "5%". 20(2) Subsection 74(2) is amended in the formula by striking out "50%" and substituting "25%". Miigwech. Mr. Dep uty Chairperson: We'll pause while we distribute the amendment. * (14:50) The amendment is in order. The floor is open for questions.

It has been moved by the opposition House leader THAT Clause 20 of the Bill is replaced– An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Dispense. The amendment is in order. The floor is open for questions. Is the committee ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Question. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Amendment–pass.

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1329 Shall clause 19 as–oh, sorry. Clause 20 as amended–pass. Shall clauses 21 through 23 pass? Some Honourable Members: Pass. Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I hear a no. Then clauses 21 through 23 are accordingly defeated. Clause 24 –pass; clause 25 –pass; enacting clause–pass; title–pass. Bill as amended be reported. This concludes the business of the committee. Call in the Speaker. IN SESSION Committee Report Mr.

Dennis Smook (Deputy Chairperson): The Committee of the Whole has considered Bill 16, The Budget Implementation and Tax Statutes Amend- ment Act, 2019, and reports the same with amendments. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Brandon West (Mr. Helwer), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. House Business Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (Official Opposition House Leader): On House business. Mr. Deputy Speaker: On House business. Ms.

Fontaine: In accordance with rule 2(9), I would like to table a list of the four bills designated by the official opposition for this Fourth Session of the 41st Legislature. We had previously designated Bill 10, The Regional Health Authorities Amendment Act (Health System Governance and Accountability); and Bill 4, The Public Sector Construction Project s (Tendering) Act. Today, I am designating Bill 3, The Liquor, Gaming and Cannabis Control Amendment Act (Cannabis Social Responsibility Fee); and Bill 18, The Labour Relations Amendment Act. Miigwech. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: It has been announced by the honourable member for opposition House leader that four bills will be designated as official opposition and the bills are Bill 10, Bill 4, Bill 3 and Bill 18. Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): On House business, I'm announcing that in accordance with rule 2(10), the following bills will be considered by the government as specified bills for this Fourth Session of the 41st Legislature: bills 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 and 21. I'd also note that bills 5 and 16 have already had second reading stage completed. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: It has been announced that – by the Government House Leader that, in accordance to rule 2, the following bills will be considered by the government as a specified bil ls for the Third Session of the 41st Legislature: bills 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 and 21. * * * * (15:00) Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. As this is the 14th sitting day of the first reading completion day, today is specified bill sec ond reading day.

Government bills that have first reading moved to the 20 sitting days of the Throne Speech and have been identified by the governments as the specified but not identified by the opposition as designated bills are eligible to have second reading moved today. For each bill, the minister will move the motion and then may speak for a maximum of 10 minutes, followed by question period for up to 15 minutes. Critics of recognized parties and independent members may then speak for a maximum of 10 minutes per bill.

For the specified bills which have been previously called for debate, any of the eligible speakers who have not yet spoken shall be heard. At the conclusion of the speeches, all of each bill be debated shall remain open, pending and putting to the question on all bills tomorrow. The House shall not adjourn today until these actions have been completed for each specified bill. The first bills that will follow this process is as follows: bills 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 and 21. I will now call these bills for debate in numerical order.

1330 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019 DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 2–The Municipal Amendment Act (Strengthening Codes of Conduct for Council Members) Mr. Deputy Speaker: I will now call Bill 2, The Municipal Amendment Act (Strengthening Codes of Conduct for Council Members). The honourable minister –the minister and critics of each opposition party have already spoken to this bill but inde pendent members have not yet spoken. The floor is open for debate. Any speakers? Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the ––the question–the debate will remain open.

SECOND READINGS Bill 6–The Statutes Correction and Minor Amendments Act, 2018 Mr. Deputy Speaker: I will now call on Bill 6, The Statutes Correction and Minor Amendments Act, 2018, recognizing the honourable Minister of Justice to move and speak to the second reading motion. Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Educatio n, that Bill 6, The Statutes Correction and Minor Amendments Act, 2018, be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr.

Cullen: I'm pleased to speak on Bill 6, the statutes correction and minor amendments act. This bill corrects typographical, numbering and minor drafting and translation errors. This bill also contains minor amendments to a variety of acts and repeals two municipal acts that are outdated. I would like to bring two matters in the bill to the at tention of members that involve changes requested by third parties. The first is an amendment to The Advanced Education Administration Act to give the Red River College the same deadline for submitting its annual report as universities throughout Manitoba.

The college requested this amendment because it has changed to a March 31st fiscal year, which is the same as the universities. The second is the bill's repeal of The Winnipeg School Division No. 1 Sinking Fund Trustees Act. The Winnipeg School Divisi on requested the repeal. It allows the division more flexibility in administering the pension plan for non- teaching employees. The repeal is also supported by the non-teaching employee groups of the division. Mr. Speaker, that concludes my remarks on Bill 6, and I'd be pleased to discuss the bill further at committee stage. Thank you. Questions Mr.

Deputy Speaker: A question period up to 15 minutes will be held. The questions may be addressed by the –to the minister by members of the following sequence : first question by the official opposition critic or designate; subsequent questions may be asked by the critic or designate of another recognized opposition party; subsequent questions asked, each independent member; remaining questions be asked by any opposition member; and no questions and answers shall exceed 45 seconds. Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St.

Johns): Part of The Environment Act that this bill repeals requires the Clean Environment Commission to submit an annual report containing (

E) a description of activities undertaken jointly by the commission and the council. Disclosure of activities is important. Why is this bill allowing for less disclosure and less transparency? Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I'd just like to –if the member could reference the –which statute in here –what number it was, I could provide her some background to that. Ms. Fontaine: Unfortunately, I don't have it on me right now. It is in the act. Mr. C ullen: Mr.

Speaker, I will take that question under advisement and certainly provide the member the response to that question in committee. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Yes, I would like to know in terms of the change to the clean environment commission act, what consultations were done with regard to the changes and who was talked to? Mr. Cullen: So this particular amendment repeals a clause that requires the Clean Env ironment Commission to report in its annual report on any joint activities undertaken with the Manitoba Environment Council. The amendment is minor because this clause is no longer operative. The

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1331 Environment Act was amended in 2000 to eliminate the council itself. Ms. Fontaine: Is the Clean Environment Commission in agreement with this amendment? * (15:10) Mr. Cullen: I'm–assume they would be in agreement with this because the environmental –Manitoba Environmental Council no longer exists. So, in recognition of this council no longer to be in existence, that's why this clause was implemented. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there any further questions? Debate Mr. Deputy Speaker: So we'll move on to–the floor is open for debate. Any speakers? Ms.

Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): Deputy Speaker, I won't take much time on this statutes correction and minor amendments act. I have had the opportunity to sit down with legal counsel several months ago, and some of our respective staff, and so I do understand that the bi ll attempts to just rectify, in a variety of different statutes and amendments, things that are no longer applicable or do not make sense, including French translation–to ensure that we have proper French translations within our Manitoba statutes and amendments–or, our acts. So I think with that will be comments for right now.

Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Yes, Mr. Speaker, we will support this bill and these changes. Most of these are small. The change to the Clean Environment Commission, which deals with the joint activities with the Manitoba environmental council, is a reminder of the terrible mistake that was made in 2000 in getting rid of the Manitoba environmental council, which had done a great job in terms of keeping an eye on environmental activities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there any further speakers? The debate remaining open, and we'll go on to Bill 7.

Bill 7–The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Immediate Roadside Prohibitions) Mr. Deputy Speaker: We will now call on Bill 7, the highway traffic amendment act (immediate roadside 'probitations'–'prohibitations'). Minister and critic of each opposition party has already spoken on this bill, but the independent members have not yet spoken. The floor is open for debate. Any speakers? Debate will remain open. Bill 8–The Referendum Act Mr. Deputy Speaker: And now we'll go on to Bill 8.

I will now call on Bill 8 and recognize the honourable minister of –I will call on Bill 8 and recognize the honourable member for Justice to move and speak on the second reading motion. Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Ju stice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Education, that Bill 8, The Referendum Act, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of the House. Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor has been advised of the bill, and I table the message. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable member–Minister for Justice, second by the honourable Minister for Education, that Bill 8, The Referendum Act, be–now be read for the second time and now referred to the committee of this House. Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor has been advised of this bill, and is –has been –tabled the message. Mr. Cullen: I am pleased to speak today on Bill 8, The Referendum Act. Mr. Speaker, we all know that the previous NDP government ignor ed balanced -budget legislation so they could increase the PST, provincial sales tax, on Manitobans without a referendum.

That's why our government committed to the creation of a stand -alone referendum law to restore Manitobans' right to vote on major tax increases. Bill 8 fulfills that commitment once and for all. Presently, a referendum must be held before a government can increase major taxes or take steps to privatize Manitoba Hydro or the Manitoba Public

1332 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019 Insurance Corporation. Madam Speaker, this bill will not change those requirements. Instead, Bill 8 adds two new situations where a referendum must be held in Manitoba. Under this legislation a referendum will be required before implementing a significant change to our province's voting scheme and before the Legislative Assembly can vote on authorizing an amendment to the Canadian Constitution.

The law also allows for government to frame its own question on a topic not prescribed in the legislation and establishes rigorous public consultation to help frame any such question. The Referendum Act sets out the rules for conducting referendums in Manitoba, including how a referendum is called, conducted and financed. This includes restrictions on spending limits and advertising, as well as rules that ensure the referendum voting is conducted in the same manner as voting in a provincial general election. A stand -alone referendum law has been recommended by the Chief Electoral Officer for nearly two decades.

I am proud to stand with her, and I believe strongly that The Referendum Act will ensure that future referendums are held in a way that is fair, accountable and transparent for all Manitobans. I hope that all members of this House will join our government to support this important legislation. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Questions Mr. Deputy Speaker: A question period up to 15 minutes will be held. Anyone–the honourable member for River Heights. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Yes, I would just ask the minister to clarify the precise role of Elections Manitoba in conducting the referendum. Hon.

Cliff Cullen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I thank the member for that question. This particular legislation is mirr ored after The Elections Financing Act, so Elections Manitoba will have the same responsibilities as they would undertake in an election. So, certainly, that's their role in this. They also have the ability under this legislation to approve which committee s will be on the yes or no side of the particular situation that's being asked in the referendum. Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St.

Johns): I would ask the minister, through you, Deputy Speaker, are there any other Canadian jurisdictions that have similar procedures around referendums? Mr. Cullen: Yes, there are a number of other jurisdictions–provincial jurisdictions that have similar referendums. Certainly, a recent BC referendum just –it was undertaken. It's –it was a stand-alone referendum. Certainly, we looked at legislation in terms of what other provinces were doing, and we think this will be, certainly, a made-in-Manitoba solution that quite often will mirror what other provinces are doing as well. Mr.

Dougald Lamont (Leader of the Second Opposition): When the Premier (Mr. Pallister) had a lawsuit against the government over their refusal to have a referendum on the PST, the finding of the court at the time was that it was unconstitutional to pass decisions over a money bill to anyone other than the government. So has this legislation been subject to a review that confirms that it is constitutional? Mr. Cullen: So in terms of other provinces with referendum laws –which we obviously reviewed– Ontario, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia, Quebec, Prince Edward Island all have a–referendum laws in place.

We certainly discussed this with the Chief Electoral Officer and their staff in terms of moving forward. So a lot of the –this legislation in this particular bill does mirror elections financing rules. So, certainly, we believe it will certainly meet the constitutional challenge. Mr.

Lamont: The question is more specific, partly because the–that The Referendum Act is going to refer to the abilities to tax, which is essentially money bills, which is a po wer that is reserved for government and limited to government. * (15:20) As the second opposition, we are not allowed to propose or pass money bills, and that is part of the process that was raised as being unconstitutional, that it's actually not within the power of government to pass that decision to somebody else. So has this been subjected to a constitutional review, especially in the light of the Premier's (Mr. Pallister) failed lawsuit?

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1333 Mr. Cullen: What I will say is this legislation really speaks to clarity. I know there's federal legislation around clarity, around referendums. We've tried to make sure that we have a process in place that provides clarity to Manitobans. So any referendum question that is put would be put –brought forward by a me mber, and then that particular referendum question would go to a committee of government where it would allow for public input as well.

Then the question, or the input from that standing committee, would be brought back to the Chamber so the Legislative Assembly could vote on whether they would accept the question as written. Ms. Fontaine: Deputy Speaker, will this govern - ment–will this Pallister government admit that they are trying to price out other political parties by slipping in an allowance to spe nd up to 25 per cent more while holding a referendum for an election? Mr.

Cullen: To the member's question, that particular clause relates to if we're having a refer - endum question at the same time as an election, so – recognizing that a political party would have difficulty in terms of differentiating their expenses between the actual election and the question regarding the referendum. So, as a means around that, having–to avoid paperwork, we thought it would be easier to just allow the political party to spend an extra 25 per cent of their existing allocation under the existing Elections Financing Act. Ms.

Fontaine: Well, I guess to follow up in respect of the minister's response to the question, I would like him, in greater detail, to provide us with how was the 25 per cent increase in spending while holding a referendum reached, and does this parallel other jurisdictions? Mr. Cullen: I just will say that I can't speak specifically to 'whother ' jurisdictions are doing in that particular front; I'm sure each one of them would be different.

We just felt this was a way to overcome unnecessary red tape that would be applicable to political parties, at the same time having in–a general election–as h aving a referendum and trying to ascertain which funds were used for the portion of the referendum versus which funds were allocated to the actual general election before. If the member wants to get into the analysis of what each jurisdiction's doing, cl early I would have to do some research on that. Ms.

Fontaine: The question, Deputy Speaker, is , why is the Premier attempting to make our elections more like the US elections by bringing in more money into our politics? Mr. Cullen: Well, our view is this particular legislation actually adds transparency and account - ability to the process in Manitoba. In regards to existing legislation as it is, whether it be Manitoba Public Insurance or Manitoba Hydro, existing legislation says that we would –should have a referendum before selling any of those Crown agencies.

What this particular legislation does is provides the mechanism for a referendum to happen so that Manitobans can be engaged in that process. Additionally, if we as a government wanted to increase– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable minister's time is up. Is there any other further questions? Debate Mr. Deputy Speaker: The floor is open for debate. Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): You know, we've spent a couple of weeks in the House, Deputy Speaker, as you are well aware, talking about the importance of democracy here in Manitoba.

And so I want to put on–a couple more words in respect to democracy, because in democracy –in executing democracy rules matter, and I would suggest to you, I would suggest to members of the House that rules should not be subject to partisan decision- making. Changes to our rules should be made through a consensus of the whole House and of members, all members. And Bill 8 is an attempt by the Premier to introduce a ne w rule into House procedures without the approval of the House as a whole, Deputy Speaker.

The rule change would implement steps for the Speaker to interrupt House proceedings and to put the question of a referendum before the House, certainly taking away time from other essential legislation to be debated in the House. To that end, though, Deputy Speaker, I would say that we haven't seen a really robust legislative agenda by this Pallister government. So perhaps that is what the members opposite would want to do because they haven't really put anything forward that is substantial or mean–or worthwhile.

1334 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019 The Pallister government's current majority will allow them to push through this legislation without input through–with opposition parties. We also know that the Premier (Mr. Pallister) also hid within Bill 8 a provision to increase the amount of money that they can spend on elections by 25 per cent. Deputy Speaker, as I'm sure you are well aware–you are a business owner, I believe –you would gather and understand that an extra $25,000 is hundreds of thousands of dollars that we're talking extra per election, should the Premier decide to also hold a referendum.

And as we have shared in the House for a couple of weeks now, in the legislative framework that the Pallister government–that the Premier has attempted to situate here in Manitoba which tilts elections towards members opposite and towards the PC party in its totality, this extra 25 per cent of hundreds of thousands of dollars to be spent in addition would essentially price out political parties who represent low -income and marginalized folks who cannot raise the same amount of money as the Pallister government, as PC's candidates who we know and as we have shared many times in this House are backed by wealthy donors.

Now, I know that that doesn't mean anything– [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms. Fontaine: –to members opposite. It means a lot to this side of the House–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms. Fontaine: –and to the folks that we represent. We are proud to represent Manitoba–[interjection] I don't know what the member opposite is yammering about, about unions. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms. Fontaine: We're proud to represent Manitobans who despite their struggle have a desire to be able to participate in our political processes.

Whether it's attending rallies or reaching out for memberships or attending constituency meetings, I'm proud to be able to s ay that these folks are our relatives and we're proud to represent them. And I know that members opposite think very, very little of them, because if they did think highly of these individuals–of individuals that we represent on this side of the House–they wouldn't sit by idly while their Premier, their boss, their guru puts into a legislation a democratic process that absolutely ensures that there isn't a level playing field here in Manitoba to participate in democracy.

You know, and I'm going t o take this oppor - tunity, Deputy House Speaker, to say to members opposite, once again, as I've stated previously, you know, for–you know, their inaction while their boss– their Premier, again, their guru, their leader, all of these things –while he systema tically dismantles democracy in this province and tilts further elections towards his favour and they sit by. * (15:30) Manitobans will know. If people want to come back in 10 or 15 years, they're going to ask and they're going to research to see who was sitting in this House and they're going to research the member for Morris (Mr.

Martin). They're going to research the member for Fort Richmond (Mrs. Guillemard). They're going to research the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Mayer). They're going to look at how they voted on these egregious bills. And so, you know, I would suggest to members they have an opportunity to rectify things. If they really do care about democracy, they can stand up to their boss, to their leader, to their –and actually demand changes. They can actually demand from their boss –I know that they're a little skittish around him, they're a little scared, little walking -on- eggshells around him. I get it–[interjection] Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms. Fontaine: –but I would suggest that they st and up for democracy. They stand up for democracy, not only for themselves, but–many of us are mothers and fathers in this House. You know, the work that we do on this side of the House, we don't only think about ourselves. We think about our children, our grandchildren– [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms. Fontaine: We think about their children and their grandchildren for seven generations to come. So I encourage members opposite to get a little bit of courage and to stand up to their boss and say, you know what?

This Bill 8 is undemocratic. It simply tilts things in our favour. That's not fair. That's not right. And while you're at it, Mr. Premier, we are asking you to commit to democracy in this province and actually go back and fix the legislations that you've put into place since taking government

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1335 three years ago. They can do it. There are so many courageous people in the world and these folks opposite can do the same thing for democracy in Manitoba. So, you know, I'm running out of time he re. I'd like to be able to –I didn't, as the member –the Government House Leader (Mr. Goertzen) knows, I wasn't able to finish my unlimited speaking time. I was looking forward to that.

We could spend so many hours talking about democracy but at the end of the day, I'm proud to stand up on this side of the House and fight for individuals who are not yet represented in this House. And, again, Deputy House Speaker, I will put it on the record that on this side of the House, it's very hard to wrap our heads ar ound why members opposite just choose to stand by while democracy is dismantled.

And why they choose to stand by or sit by and yammer on as they do and should out their whatever, their ridiculousness, while they are effectively ensuring that the most margi nalized and vulnerable of our society will never be able to have a space or seat in this House. I don't know why they're so proud of that. How are you proud to be able to effectively keep out and maintain status quo and what is the status quo, Deputy Spe aker? It is what we see across the opposite side of this House.

And as I've said before, I do not see diversity when I look across –when I choose to look across because, as you know, I don't really look across very often. I don't see diversity. I don't se e diversity in respect of gender. I certainly don't see diversity in respect of the beautiful mosaic of communities that we have in Manitoba that have a right to be in this House and in this Chamber, representing communities that have historically not been in this space. Let me just say this in the 50 seconds that I have left. I will continue to speak on this. I am very, very passionate about this.

Political representation matters. It may not matter to members opposite, but it matters to Manitobans. It mat ters when then don't see themselves reflected in this House. How do we expect to engage Manitobans when they don't see themselves reflected in this House? Political representation matters. I'm proud to stand with my caucus in opposition and also in the antithesis to what members opposite choose to execute their roles as MLAs here. Miigwech, Deputy Speaker. Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): This legislation needs to be looked at very carefully, and I think it will be important, when it gets to committee stage, to make sure that we've got some people who are presenting who are experts on constitutional and referendum issues. There have been referendum in the–referenda in the past which have been declared unconstitutional. We have to be aware of that. Th ere is also an issue here of what needs to be decided by referendum and what really is the purview of the government to make the decisions.

There is an issue of the fact that, in the past, there was a requirement for a referendum in terms of raising the PST, but the legislation which was existing at the time was disregarded. What is the evidence that this legislation would not be disregarded in the same way at some point in the future? These are important questions which need to be looked at very carefully. We have concerns about the fact that we have seen successive NDP and Conservative governments changing legislation so that they will not lose their salary monies.

We have seen that one of the first things that the government did when they came to pow er was to increase the salaries of Cabinet ministers. It happened, and it happened, in part, because of the way the legislation was crafted, right? And what I’m pointing out is that you have to be careful about how the legislation is crafted because it may do things or you may end up having results that you don't necessarily want or that results that really look bad on the government or the opposition.

I think that we need a referendum bill if we're going to have a referendum bill that is fair, that is clearer in terms of when it is required and when it is not required. And I look forward to the discussion, Mr. Speaker, at what happens at committee stage. [interjection] All right, let me –[interjection] I have a few more minutes here and I will take a little bit more time.

1336 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019 When you have a question which is a central question within an election, do, in fact, you need to have a referendum on that issue afterwards? And, presumably, that if you have had this debated thoroughly at the time of an election, you would not need to have a referendum afterwards. Mind you, we have seen the current government muddy the waters with issues that it raised during the election and then subsequently claiming that they did or didn't campaign on those, but that is another point here that this is too important to let slide carefully through.

It needs to be looked at with great care, and we need to consider this measure very carefully. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Any further speakers on this bill? The debate will remain open, and now I will now call on Bill 9. Oh –9, yes, sorry. I will call No. 11. [interjection] No, that was 8. * (15:40) Bill 9–The Family Law Modernization Act Mr. Deputy Speaker: Okay, I will call on Bill 9, The Family Law Modernization Act. Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Fielding), that Bill 9, The Family Law Modernization Act, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor has been advised of the bill, and I table this message. Mr. Deputy Speaker: It has been moved by the honour Minister of Justice, second by the honour Minister of Finance , that Bill 9, The Family Law Modernization Act, be now read for second time and referred to the committee of this House. Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor has now been advised and she –and has –of this bill, and she has received it. Oh, the message has been tabled. Mr.

Cullen: I'm certainly pleased to rise today to speak about Bill 9. We as a government are excited about bringing Bill 9 forward for Manitoba families. Bill 9 introduces significant reforms to the family law system in order to increase access to justice for families as they restructure and make decisions about matters such as 'cusdy' and access to children, child support and property. I would like to thank Allan Fineblit and other members of the Family Law Reform Committee for their work on reviewing the family law system and setting out a framework for its modernization.

This bill both creates new legislation and amends a number of existing acts, and I will highlight the key changes in each.

Schedule A is The Family Dispute Resolution (Pilot Project) Act. This act establishes the framework for the family law pilot project. The out - of-court family dispute resolution service is to be piloted over the next three years and will have two phases. Parties will start with the facilitated resolution phase and work with a resolution officer to try to reach a mutually satisfactory agreement. If a dispute cannot be resolved at the first phase, it will move into the adjudication phase, where an adjudicator will hold a hearing and make a recommended order.

The pilot project will be mandatory for all disputes under the provincial law which–such as custody of and access to children, support for children, spouses and common law partners and property. Some exceptions include situations where relief is required on an urgent basis, where court pro- ceedings commenced before the pilot project starts, where a party resides outside Manitoba and where an existing order prevents the parties from commu - nicating with one another because of a domestic violence situation.

Schedule B is The Child Support Service Act. So Bill 9 continues the child support service under its own act and gives it additional responsibilities. The child support service is given expanded authority to make 'annitional' administrative child support decisions, recalculate all Manitoba child support orders and certain child support agreements and determine when adult children are no longer eligible for recalculation. These changes will make a significant difference to family in the time –in–to families in the time, speed and cost of processing child support decisions.

Schedule C is The Arbitration Amendment Act. And this legislation amends the arbitration act to include specific provisions to re gulate arbitration between parties to family law disputes. Family arbitration awards will now be enforceable in the same way as court orders, including orders by the

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1337 Maintenance Enforcement Program. Child support awards will be eligible for recalculation b y the child support service. Awards respecting parenting arrangements or custody will be enforceable in the same way as court orders. Awards respecting property or other issues related to the family law dispute will be enforceable by a streamlined court application.

Schedule D is The Provincial Court Amendment and Court of Queen's Bench Amendment Act. This bill creates new provisions respecting factors that a court is to consider when deciding whether to order an evaluation, as well as factors related to the appointment of family eva luators, social workers or other professionals to evaluate custody, access or related matters that are included in The Provincial Court Act and The Court of Queen's Bench Act. The court may apportion the cost of the evaluation between the parties. This ass ists the service –with service sustainability and timely access.

Schedule E is The Family Maintenance Amendment Act. This bill amends and expands the administrative authority of the Maintenance Enforcement Program, which enforces the payment of maintenance under court orders and agreements. It permits Maintenance Enforcement Program to make administrative decisions in appropriate circum - stances and to gather information more effectively. Examples of such administrative decision making include MEP may s uspend enforcement of support in appropriate circumstances.

Parties are permitted to enter into an agreement to change the amount of court -ordered support to be enforced by MEP without having to go to court. MEP may undertake reviews to determine the status of adult children and may cease enforcing support for them in appropriate circumstances, and may enforce reduced child support if certain criteria are met; for example, when the eldest child is no longer dependant, but support continues for the younger dependant siblings.

And M -E-T may cancel or reduce penalties or costs in certain circumstances, and to enable more effective enforcement, MEP may require a debtor to appear and provide information.

Schedule F: The Inter -jurisdictional Support Orders A mendment Act, and this act eliminates the need for copies of support orders from other jurisdictions to be certified before they can be filed in a Manitoba court and enforced. This will streamline processes for MEP to commence enforcement in certain cases. Under the previous NDP government, access to courts and justice worsened, making it difficult for families to receive decisions on key issues, such as child custody orders, in a timely fashion.

The family law system has become increasingly complex, and our legislative reform will assist families in making consensus -based decisions about their family law matters through the use of facilitation officers, with the option to access out -of- court adjudication. The aim of The Family Law Modernization Act is to provide Manitobans with an expeditious, informal and inexpensive way to settle family disputes in a fair and just manner.

The pilot project will include all of the supports that were committed in the Speech from the Throne, 2018, and will deliver ef ficient and effective dispute resolution processes for Manitoba families. I look forward to all members of the House supporting this important legislation. Questions Mr. Deputy Speaker: A question period of the 15 minutes will be held; time for questions. Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): Will the minister guarantee–sorry, pardon me –guarantee that Legal Aid coverage for family law will include coverage for cases in this pilot procedure? Hon.

Cliff Cullen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I will–I want to point out, first of all, this is groundbreaking legislation. No other jurisdiction in the country has tried this approach. We will be learning as we go through this approach, and the concept here is to make the process easier for Manitoba families. And we're optimistic going through the facili - tated phase, possibly an adjudication phase, that we can provide a resolution to that. Certainly, resources will be made available to Manitobans when and if they are needed. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the question wasn't fully answered, and it's important that people know whether or not there is a potential for Legal Aid to be involved. And if Legal Aid is involved, will that be appropriately funded so that it is really accessible support to those in this progress?

1338 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019 Mr. Cullen: The intent is to make this as easy as possible to–for families to move through the process. We’re hoping we don't need as much legal advice for families. Ultimately, this certainly could happen. We recognize there are some challenges as you move through this particular system, but we certainly want to make sure we do support, certainly, family –Legal Aid in Manitoba.

We certainly do support Legal Aid Manitoba financially. * (15:50) We expect that there may be cases where family–where Legal Aid is required, and certainly we are committed to supporting Legal Aid for Manitoba families. Ms. Fontaine: So I think that this is a very important topic to –or, questions to be answered fully and robustly, so I do want to ask the minister: He mentioned in his answer to the question that I asked, he referenced resources, so, could the Minister of Justice outline what particular resources he was referring to that would be provided to Manitoba families going through this pilot project? Mr.

Cullen: Clearly, we're charting new territory here and we were trying to make this pilot project work within our existing budget. Clearly, there will be a reallocation of resources. Clearly, we will need people who are involved in the facilitation phase. We're working on, hopefully, on a technology component to this so that Manitobans can work through the facilitation phase and be assisted on a technology front. Clearly, we'll have resources available to Manitobans to–for facilitators to help Manitobans.

The next stage could be the arbitration phase and, obviously, we will need arbitrators available and be trained– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable minister's time is up–time's up. Mr. Gerrard: The minister is talking about this as a pilot program. Is it envisaged that anybody who could be eligible can get into this program, or is it going to be restricted to certain people, and how many individuals does the minister expect will pass through this pilot program? Mr. Cullen: In Manitoba, there's between three to five thousand families are impacted by divorce each and every year.

Clearly, it's time -consuming, it's expensive, it's a very adversarial process. We're looking at a mechanism to take that away and make it easier for Manitobans. So, certainly, there's a lot of Manitobans go through this particular process. Hopefully, this is a mechanism where we can resolve some of those disputes quicker without all the anxiety and with less cost as well. Ms. Fontaine: Will the minister guarantee that family conciliatory services will continue to provide reports and assessments in family law proceedings free of charge to Manitobans? Mr.

Cullen: And further, to add to the previous question, our view is t his would be a mandatory process where applicable. Obviously, there's situations that I mentioned that were –where an expedited nature has to come into play. Where there's domestic violence at play, and, certainly, if people are already involved in the fed eral divorce act process, they will be diverted outside of this particular process. In terms of the accountability, obviously, we will be learning as we go through this particular dispute resolution and our undertaking would be to make sure that we are transparent to Manitobans. Mr.

Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, because this is a pilot program, it's going to be very important to have clear outcome measures that can be followed to see whether people who go through this program consider it a success, whether or not it is a success. What are those outcome measures going to be, and how will the minister determine whether the pilot program has been successful or not? Mr. Cullen: And I do appreciate that question from the member. When we looked at making this fundamental change, we wanted to make sure that we took it, sort of, step by step. That's why the concept of a pilot project was brought forward.

We don't expect we're going to get this right right off the hop as a pilot, and we can change midstream. Obvious ly, there will be ongoing evaluation as we move through the process. Our view as a government is –one of our priorities is to make sure that there is timely access to justice, and that is something that we'll be – certainly we'll be watching as we work thro ugh this pilot project.

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1339 We recognize the adversarial nature in going through a divorce situation such as this– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable minister's time is up. Ms. Fontaine: Deputy Speaker, I don't think that I got a full answer in respect of m y last question. So the minister talked about transparency, but, in fact, let me just reiterate my question because it wasn't answered. Will the Minister of Justice guarantee that family 'concilatory' services will continue to provide reports and assessme nts in family law proceedings free of charge to Manitobans?

I know that the minister talked about transparency, and I think that that's wonderful if that could actually occur, but, actually, what we're talking about is those services that are currently available to Manitobans. Will that continue under the pilot project? Mr. Cullen: There is certainly no intent under this legislation to take away anything from Manitoba families. The intent of this legislation is actually to make it easier for Manitoba families to move through the process.

The intent is to make it less costly for Manitobans, to expedite the process for Manitobans and to not make the process as adversarial as it is. So by trying to take the process out of the court system, we think this will expedite processes for Manitobans. It is never the intent to take away any services from Manitobans, only enhance services for Manitobans. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, you know, there's a lot of outcome measures in addition to the timeliness of the process.

Clearly, we need to be aware and measuring the quality of the outcome of the results, whether it works for people or whether it doesn't, and what happens to families afterwards. The second would be the costs, both to people and to government. There's too many situations where we've seen the current government consider only the costs to themselves and increase the cost to others. So we need to know the costs for both. And, lastly, there's been a lot of pilot programs which went for two years or three years or even longer– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member's time is up. Mr.

Cullen: I want to point out to the member that our dispute resolution process, we still have work to do; we still have consultation with Manitobans. You will hear more about in the very near future. Part of that consultation will provide an opportunity for Manitobans to reflect on what type of outcomes they want to achieve.

So it may be a year from now before we actually get into the actual dispute resolution process, but once this legislation is passed, we can also move on some pieces of the legislation sooner than later, such things as child support services and arbitration which will make a meaningful improvements in terms of access to justice for Manitobans, and we hope to move on that– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable minister's time is up. Ms. Fontaine: Do the changes to the Maintenance Enforcement Program–will it provide more penalties for non-payment to the payer? Mr.

Cullen: The changes under the maintenance enforcement provision hopefully allow the –that particular component of disputes to be handled more efficiently. The changes around that piece of the legislation do deal with administrative changes. So it's our hope that this will expedite the process for Manito bans, avoid a lot of court orders and avoid court delays in terms of the Maintenance Enforcement Program. Certainly, we know there's a lot of issues out there now in terms of families not having their issues addressed in a timely fashion. We hope this will expedite– Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The honourable minister's time is up. Mr. Gerrard: The minister mentioned that aspects of child support are going to be implemented first and quickly. What outcome measures are going to be measured to know whether it's worki ng? I think this is absolutely critical. * (16:00) And second, the minister describes this as a pilot project. There have been lots of pilot projects which have implemented and then they've fallen off the table and ended in two years or three years. Is there a sunset clause to this pilot project or will it just continue? Mr.

Cullen: And I want to clarify for the member that the dispute resolution component of this legislation is the only component that is a three -year pilot project. We will evaluate tha t pilot as we go through. Conceptually, if things are successful, obviously that will –we'll move forward with that particular pilot and legislate that into law.

1340 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2019 The other pieces that he mentions, such as child support, arbitration, maintenance enforcement: we can actually implement them as soon as we get royal assent on this particular legislation. Obviously, there would be a lot of internal work that has to be done but I certainly appreciate his comments about outcomes for Manitobans. Ms. Fontaine: Can the minister provide the House with the details of who he consulted with in crafting this bill? Mr. Cullen: I would be more than happy to. We had a review commissioned by Allan Fineblit.

He produced a document back in June of 2018, Modernizing Our Famil y Law System, and there was certainly a number of committee members on that particular committee and we have a list of 20 stakeholders and contributors to this particular document. I will try to list as many as I can. The immigrant and refugee service pr oviders, Law Society of Manitoba, public legal education services, mediation services, the Canadian Bar Association, Manitoba Association of Women's Shelters, Legal Help Centre, The Comprehensive Co-mediation program, Family Conciliation Service and the family mediation of Manitoba– Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The honourable minister's time is up. Mr. Gerrard: Just a little more clarity. At the end of three years, how will a decision be made to continue? Will it require new legislation or will it continue automatically in order to proceed? Mr. Cullen: I do appreciate the member's question. That's something maybe we can discuss when we get these legislation to committee. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The time for question period has expired. Debate Mr. Deputy Speaker: The floor is open to any speakers. Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St.

Johns): I'm glad to put some words on the record in respect to Bill 9, The Family Law Modernization Act. Certainly, let me be perfectly clear that the NDP and members on this side of the House, you know, support measures that take into account the difficulties in navigating our justice system and, certainly, welcome changes to enhance the judicial processes for Manitoba families, particularly when we're talking about family law and in the cases of divorce and, certainly, custody arrangements.

I'll share with the House that, certainly, myself had to, many, many years ago, go through the court processes in respect of my youngest son and attempting to navigate custody and maintenance arrangements. And I –we had actually chosen to go through a case conference. And I have to say and put it before the courts, that it was actually a lot better than going through the court system.

Already, as a single mom with him, you're already in a place in your life where you are facing an enormous amount of stress parenting a young child by yourself, not to mention the financial difficulties in respect of parenting a young child by yourself. And as well, in the midst of career change –I had just graduated with my master's degree and was attempting to find my footing in respect of not always being in non-profit and community work and trying to get into that professional piece. So, at the time, it was a lot of stress.

In fact, I was a lot, lot skinnier back in those days because of the amount of stress that I was actually under. And I have to say that the case conference procedures that I went through felt very safe and 'unchaotic' and provided an opportunity to be able to share some of the pieces that you wouldn't necessarily want to share publicly at the time.

So, of course, as I indicated, you know, us on this side of the House and, obviously, from a personal perspective, appreciate when we can take some of those contentious moments and stresses out of people's life and try to expedite a resolution in respect of divorce pro ceedings or custody arrangements, I think that that's always positive. What I will put on the record, Deputy Speaker, is that I’m concerned with some of the minister's answers and some of the things that he's put on the record today.

So (1) you know, often with pilot projects there's additional dollars that are attached to those private – or pilot projects–but, actually, the minister indicated today that they're, you know, in the process of charting this new territory, and I get that and I respect that. I get that pilot projects are always a new territory and we kind of learn as we go along. But typically, you know, those are attached to dollars, and we heard the minister say that they are using existing dollars.

April 17, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1341 So my concern lies in where those dollars are being taken from, why there's not additional dollars to what could be –once maybe those hiccups in respect of maybe some of those gaps that the minister can't see just right now, which is, I would say, and fair to say, normal in respect of a pilot project–but where are those dollars to be able to ensure that this pilot project actually is successful?

And where are those dollars to ensure that should there be an analysis and an environmental scan that, you know what, we're missing on this side in respect of gaps, we need additional resources. Where are the dollars that will be able to be put towards those concerns as this continues along?

So, you know, I would hope that the minister would be very diligent in watching as this pilot project rolls out to ens ure that the resources that are needed for this pilot project to be successful are allocated to that, including if that means going back to Treasury to ensure that Manitoba families have the resources as they are navigating, you know, this new system–or as the minister has said, as they're participating in the minister's charting of new territory–which, again, I don't think is a bad thing. I think that all of us in this House recognize that the system is–can always operate better, always.

I think that we ow e it to Manitobans to always try to make things better for–as we move along. I do want to put it on the record, Deputy Speaker, that, you know, there are concerns on this side of the House in respect of legal aid coverage. And so, you know, the concern is that if you take it out of this process, have you then just omitted or–the ability for Manitoba families to be able to access legal aid. I think that I –you know, that is an important question to be asked.

It's an important question for the minister to ask himself and his department as they move along here, ensuring that Manitobans who participate in this new process have access to legal representation which is, as you know, a right of Manitobans to be able to access. I don't think that anybody in this Hous e would want an individual to participate in a legal processing. However, whether it's in the court or in a case conference or in this piloted project, I think that everybody in this House would understand an individual's right to legal representation ei ther through personal means or through legal aid.

And so I would hope that the minister is committed to this principle and will continue to look as he goes ahead. Equally important or coupled with that –in concert with that–is, again, what we put on the record in respect of family conciliatory services. Will the minister continue to provide those reports and assessments in family law proceedings free of charge to Manitobans? We know already, Deputy Speaker, and you know this as well, that Man

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	41-4-41
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	41st 4th hansardpdf 41.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6a352fc2dc74de808995b01bccdf08e60b1fd52c

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