Manitoba Hansard — 24 June 1993 (Sitting 89, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-89

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legisla ture of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 89 • 1:30 p.m., THURSD AY, JUNE 24,1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legls.lature Members, Constituencies and Political Affi liation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky GARST AIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDW ARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDL AY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GIL LESH AMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOU REUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY , Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCH ARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Con rad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOW CHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant Vacant CONSTIITUENCY Osborne' Thompson Welling tc:m River He,ights Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine Rtver Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordi1a Arthur -Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Spring field Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwo od Gimli Point Douglas Ink ster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Bu rrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assinib oi�:t River East Pembina Portage Ia. Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcom1 Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Ron La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan Rtver Rossmere Rupe rtsland The Maples PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liber al NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liber al PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

4676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 24, 1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Hon. James Downe y (Minister of Energy and Mine s) : Mr. Speaker, I have a brief statement to make to the House. I wish to provide the House with an update with regard to actions pertaining to the Northern Flood Agreement.

This morning, Chief Eric Saunders, York Factory First Nation, en te red in to a Memorandum of Un derstanding with Canada, Manitoba Hydro and the Pr ovinc e of Manitob a to neg otiate a comprehen sive settlement agreement under the terms and conditions of the Northern Flood Ag ree ment. The sett lement agreemen t is expected to be signed by June of 19 94, and in the interim, York Factory First Nation will cease actions before the arbitrator. As you are aware, a settlement agreement was signed with the Split Lake First Nation in June of 19 92.

Settlemen t agreemen t negotiations are under way with Nelson House First Nation, and I anticipate that an agreement will be signed by the fall of this year. Discussions are currently un derway with Cross Lake First Nation with respect to developing a process to en able c omprehen sive settlement agreement negotiations to be un dertaken. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that we are making subs tantial progress in regard to sett ling our obligations un der the terms and conditions of the Northern Flood Agreement. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Oppositi on): Mr.

Speaker,! thank the minis ter for the statement here this afternoon. We certainly believe that the five bands that were part of the original Northern Flood Agreement signed, I think, a num ber of years ago, in fact in 19 77-many of those conditions and many of those issues are outs tand ing.

The governmen t is proceeding on a band-by-band basis, but there are still two bands that are outstanding, I believe, from the Northern Flood, and we are not sure from the minister's statement today whether there will be a referendum of the people in the communi ty prior to the actual signing of this proposed agreement, which has been the tradition in past agreements. Mr. Speaker, there are other gener al issues that have not been dealt with either and, of course, would have been dealt with under the Conawapa envi ronmen tal assessment .

The whole issue of the en vir onmen tal impact was in the original agreement signed by the former Lyon government and the bands, dealing with the changes with the Hydro development. I think, in terms of the micro, signing commu nity by commu nity, that is certainly the right of the communi ty to make that decision. We respect their right to do so, but there are still two communi ties outstanding, and there is still the provision that is outstanding on the overall environmen tal impact which was contained withi n that treaty or that agreement between the government. Mr.

Speaker, that was one of the disadvantages of the provincial government cancelling halfway through the environm ental impact study that was well un derway between the federal and provincial governmen ts. I am not saying that by way of criticism, just by way of fact, because there still could be court cases from communi ties that are not signed dealing with the part of the original Northern Flood Agree men t to have that provision fully complied with. Mr. Speaker, we will await the decision of the community on the proposal from the minister.

I do appreciate the fact that they are going community by community, but we still have two communi ties outstanding and the macro issues outstan ding. These are difficult issues . I do not pretend to say anyone in this House can say that these are not very dif fi cul t issues to resolve. Di ffe rent communi ties come at it from a different philosophical and historical approach, and I guess all of us will feel much better if all issues in the

4677 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 24, 1993 Northern Flood Agreement are ultimately resolved. Thank you very much. * (1 335) Mr. Pa ul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, as I said back in June of 19 92 when the agreement was annou nced by the minister with respect to the Split Lake First Nation, I will say again here, we are very pleased in deed to see this progress made. I want to congratulate the ne gotiators for the York Factory First Nation as well as for the government in achieving this settle ment. I think we all agree it is high time that there were settlements like this.

We have every hope that this community as well as others will now go forward to a new future. Mr. Speaker, I simply want to say that we have, of course, I think, learned a lot through this process as a communi ty and as a society, as people who represent the people of this province in this Legis lature-about how to and how not to go about northern development.

I think in many respects there were many, many mistakes made, but the truth is that thes e agreements are very important for the future of these people, for the futur e of these nations, and we should congr atulate those who today, better late than never, have come to these settl ements. Mr. Speaker, my final comment, I want to give credit wher e credit is due. The Hydro represen tatives were before the committee some time ago. They wer e qu estioned at length on their new approach, any revisions in their approach towards development in the North and towards native communi ties.

They did display, on the record, a very different approach, which I think was consistent with more of a progressive view towards development in a co-operative fashion in the North. I do hope that those spoken commitments at that time from the Hydro are representative not only of that organization, but other Crown corporations working in the North and this government. Mr. Speaker, I do hope very much that the people of York Factory First Nation will move forward under this new agreement to have a new life and a new relationship with the rest of us in their futur e years. Thank you very much.

Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Souris School fifty-two Grade 5 students under the direction of Ms. Theresa O'Brien and Mr. Glenn Wallman. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose). Als:o this afternoon, from the Fisher Branch School we have thirty-two Grade 8 students under the direction of Ms. Linda Smithson. This school is located in the constituency of the honou rable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evan s).

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like tc' welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUES TION PERIOD Senate of Canada Abolition Mr. Giary Doer (Leader of the OpposHion): Mr.

Speaker, sinc e the Charlottetown accord was defeated last year, and in fact since Brian Mulroney annou nced his resignation as Prime Min ister of Canada-in fact, he has one day left I believe, and many of us think that is very good that he only has one day left-1 5 people have been appointed to the Setnate of Canada, 15 patronage appointments, many of them fundraiser s for the Conservative Party, other people are friends of the Prime Mi niste r, fun ctionaries of the Pr ogressiv e Consetrvative Party.

I think most people find this cost and this body to be totally out of date, a $50-million patronage body, when health care and education are being cut back. Yester day, 14 Lib erals inc lu ding the former Leader of the Manitoba Liberal Party along with 11 Conse,rvatives and one independent voted another $6,000 in provisions for the Senate of Canada. Our phones have been ringing off the hook. This group was supposed to be a sober second body. God knows they have not got the sober second thought of anybody, Mr. Speaker. We do not need them c:tnymore and will the-- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. * (1 340) Mr. 04)er: There was one Manitoban who voted for this: yesterday, and it was the former Leader of the Lib eral Party. But all of them should be condemned collectively by this House.

June 24, 1993 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4678 Will the Premier, at the First Minis ters' meeting that is being called by the Pr ime Min ister designate, call for the immediate abolition of the Senate? It is time to get rid of that body. It is not good for a sober second thought, and it is too costly for the people of Canada and the taxpayers of Manitoba. Hon. Gar y Fllmon (P remi er) : Mr.

Speaker, although one should not look for any small comfort when faced with such a wrong-headed action, I do take a little bit of comfort in noting that there were 16 Conservative members who voted against that particular raise and none of those who voted for it were any of the Manitoba Conservative members of Senate. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition. It was wrong, wrong, wrong, and it is why I, as a member of those who attempted to negotiate a constitutional package last year, included serious Senate reform.

If these people were elected, I do not think there is any way that they could show such a disdain for pu blic opinion as they did with that acti on yesterday. I join wi th the Leader of the Opposition in cond emnin g what I think to be a terribly inappropriate move by the Senate of Canada. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, in the last numb er of years we tried to reform the Senate. It failed. The people of Canada have spoken. At the Manitoba task force hearings, just as many people proposed to reform the Senate and jus t as many people in Manitoba proposed to abolish the Senate.

The First Mini sters are meeting with the Prime Minister in the first week of July prior to the Tokyo Summi t. We have an opportun ity to have a referendum with the people of Canada tied to the federal el ection wh ich mus t be called, constitut ionally, this fall. Would the Premier agree to take a resolution to the First Ministers' meeting? It should not take more than five minutes to discuss this issue to abolish the Senate and put that to a referendum along with the federal election which is scheduled this fall. Let us get it done. Let us get rid of this high-cost and out-of-date in stituti on. Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, as much as I agree with the Leader of the Opposition vis-a-vis the terrible inappropriateness of the measure taken by the Senate of Canada, I recognize that this is a hot political issue. It has been on the open-line show all morning, and the Leader of the Opposition wants to capitalize on that. The fact of the matter is there are some very signifi cant matters, I think, that have to be talked about at the First Min isters' meeting which will be, unfortunately, brief, but we do have to talk about common approaches to Canada's position on the G-7 confer ence.

We do have to talk about common approaches vis-a- vis getting our fiscal house in order and getting our deficit and debt reduction patterns established by all provinces and all ju risdictions in Canada. We do have to talk about getting Canadians back to work and talk about economic development and investment creation and opportunities for all of those things. I do think that we will have to give that kind of serious and major consideration to those issues at a meeting in which we get together for the first time in about a year and a half as First Min isters.

I would think that those are the agenda items I will be concen trating on, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, Manitoba got rid of the Senate here in this province after an experience of six years from 18 70 to 18 76 because we could not, quote, afford it any longer. In terms of getting our fiscal house in order, what better ways for the First Min isters to show that we are going to get our fiscal house in order and save $50 million and perhaps put that into health care or education that have been starved by the federal government? What better way to show leadership in getting rid of an outdated institution?

People are absolutely furious. They see every day the appointments of senators reminiscent of the way Trudeau stacked the Senate back in his dying days as Prime Min ister of this country. They are absolutely disgu sted with the 15 or 16 Liberals who have voted for this provision and the 11 Tories who have voted for it. It is time, Mr. Speaker, that we spoke with the people of Canada. Vote to abolish the Senate at the First Mini sters' meeting and let the people vote for it with a refe rend um that could be held in conjunction with the federal elec tion this fall. Let us finally get it done. Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, I repeat my previous answer.

4679 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA Ju ne 24, 1993 Homemaker Services Guidelines Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, this governm ent and this mini stry this year has introduc ed user fees on home care supplies, is increasing the nur sing home rates, in some cases by more than 74 percent, and is cut ting the homemaker services that used to be provided free of charge to many senior citizens and many who are confined to their own homes.

Can the mini ster advise this House today whether or not any guideli nes will be provided to the new organizations that are now going to be providing this fee for service in terms of homemaker service ? What cost will it be to our sick and to our elderly who will now have to pay for this homemaker service? • (1 345) Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my honourable friend's qu estion and invi tation to reply in front of the television cameras, the identical discussion we had Tuesday last. My honourable friend, in his

preamble, forgot one important dimen sion to the que stion of individuals on home care paying for housecleaning and meal preparation, and that was that the policy in 19 85 introduced by the then-New Democratic Party government brought in the home sup port for seniors program, which, with the use of volunteers, would establish those types of services in the communi ty, and when they were available, they would be the first call for service provision at a cost to the cli ent receiving them in the home care program formerly for free.

Now that policy, Sir, was agreed to by all members of the House as introduced by the NDP. This decision today completes that policy direction by the NDP in 19 85. My honourable friend seems to want to forget that little piece of history. Home Care Support Workers Employment Status Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, the min ister is now intr oducing a fee for service on nursing home beds. He is now introducing user fees, and he has not answered the question, how much it will cost these people in their homes.

Can the minister then advise us, since he will not tell us how much it will cost, how many homemaker, home care support workers will be losing their jobs as a n�sul t of this governme nt's in itiative? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr. Speaker, again, I am dismayed at the-an outside obsenter might observe about the lack of integrity in that last qu est ion. I, Sir, will not make that obsenration. My honourable friend said that we are introducing a charge to residents of personal care home!l.

Again, history will show-if my honourable friend wants to go back when personal care home chargos became part of the Minis try of Health's insur ed service provision-it was introduced in 19 73, by a New Democratic Party government which iintroduced a per diem charge. Now, my honourable friend is saying today, that we are jus t bringing it in. What a callous distortion of histmy and fact, Sir. Mr. Choml ak: Mr. Speaker, as usual, the min ister has rE1fu sed and is unwilling to ans wer the que sticlfl. He will not provide the facts to the public of Manitoba.

My questions I will compile both together, and maybe he will try to answer finally. How much will it be cc•sting these people now for the homemaker services, and how many of the approximately 1 ,500 or so hc)me care support workers will be losing their jobs as a result of this governm ent's in itiative? Mr. Orc�hard: Mr. Speaker, we do not have those figures because there is a reallocation of hours that happens on a regular basis as, again, we discu ssed in these Esti mates, Tuesday and Monday.

Then� are individuals in the Conti nuing Care Programs who are working more hours than their casual employment at the commencement of the same casual employment, and so the figure varies region by region according to the needs and the compete nce, I would pre sume, of the caregiver. Some individual caregivers, their hours go up quite signi ficantly; others do not, and others leave the program. We do not maintain day-by-day records as to who is working and who is not. The hours of care is the important dimension.

Again, in Estimates, my honourable friend knows that the hours of important care are going up in the Cont inuin g Care Programs this year, not down, as

June 24, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4680 my honourable friend would try to allege in front of the cameras today. * (1 350) Labour Adjustment Strategy Status Report Mr. Paul Ed wards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, in the last eight days in this province , we have witne ssed the announcement of 1 ,265 layoffs: 11 6 LPNs and 32 registered nurses, up to 600 from Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting, 480 from Hydro, 20 from Cortelco, 39 from Great-West Life , with more expected, and 10 from the mu nicipal hospitals. Now, Mr.

Speaker, my question for the Premier this morning: Given that on March 26, 19 93, with much fanfare, there was an announcement by the provincial and federal governments which stated that up to half a billion dollars would be spent in the 19 92 -1 993 years, which this agreemen t is in currency, and that one of the primary goals of that ver y large amoun t of money would be labour market adjustment, how much of that money can this Premier tell those 1 ,265 1aid-off Manitobans will be dedicated to retraining them, to getting them back into the workforce in this province, with dignity and with the least amount of economic stress to them and their families?

Hon. Gary Fllmon (P remier) : Mr. Speaker, the member opposite is misstating a number of things, firstly, the Hydro layoffs that will amount to less than a hu ndred. Most of the adjustments will be made by early retirement, and obviously those people are not candidates for retraining, so I urge him to get his facts straight. With respect to northern Manitoba, as a result of things such as the Mineral Expl oration Ince ntive Program and other measures that we have put in place, activities in drilling and exploration for new orebodies are probably at an all-time record high.

We have met with several companies even in the last few weeks who have significant prospects for orebody development that will, we hope, address those 600 or so people from the mining indu stry with skills, potentially, for that kind of effort. I can tell him that there are a numb er of very serious prospects in ones that we are looking at. With respect to almost a thousand of the ones that he names, there are things that are in place to address their concerns and their needs. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I do not agree that they are in place, and I do not think the workers agree that they are in place.

As for Hydro and other Crown corporations, we have also heard that MTS expects to cut another 400 positions in the ensuing year. It is not certain and Hydro could not be certain how many people would actually be out of work. Labour Adjustment Strategy Status Report Mr. Pa ul Ed wards (Leader of the Second Opposi tion): My suppleme ntary que stion to the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), flowing from the fi rst question: Of that half-billion-dollar commitment, joint program, which runs until March of 19 94, how much is going to be available for labour market adjustment, which is one of the key areas indic ated in the press release, and will the Premier be making an anno u ncement, or will he make it now, as promised by the Minister of Education and Training when she said on March 26, the day of the announcement, that further announcemen ts would definitely follow the signing?

Now would be an appropriate time to have a further announcement for the 1 ,265 people in this province, who in the last eight days have been told that they are going to be out of work. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minis ter of Educ ation and Trai ning): Mr. Speaker, following the signing of that agreement, Manitoba has begun working with a joint management committee with the federal government. That joint management committee is working on the consultation process that will move towards the setup of the Canada-Manitoba Labour Force Development Boards.

Those boards are the boards that Canada has designated to flow this money through and to determine, based on the information from the boards, how best that money should be spent in Manitoba. Mr. Edwards: It is often the case in this House that those types of terms are thrown out. I want something that the 1 ,265 workers can understand, and I want the minister to answer to them today as to how much of the half billion dollars-leave aside all the studies and the boards and all th is consu ltation talk -how mu ch is going to be available for them, to retrain them, to get them back into the workplace.

When is that going to happen?

4681 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 24, 1993 Mrs . Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, Canada has announced how much money it would spend over a period of years. Previously, however, that money was spent not in consultation with Manitoba. It was spent based on decisions made by Canada alone. Based on that agreement now, we will have a much bette r joint decision making. Manitoba will now have input into determining how best that money can be spent so that where training and retraining occurs, it will occur in areas where in fact it is needed. * (1 355) Student Social Allowa nces Program Reinstate ment Ms.

Jean Fr iesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, when this government tries to defend its elimin ation of the Student Social Allowances Program, it finds Itse lf with some pretty thin argumen ts. First of all, it says these students, who are existing on $5,000 a year or less, must share the pain. Second of all, they say that no other province does it. I want to ask the Minister of Education whether she is aware that the Saskatchewan Skills Development Program provides social allowances to Saskatchewan students to complete Grades 1 0, 11 or 12 .

Will she reconsider opening the doors of education again to those 1 ,200 students that she threw into the street? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Mini ster of Educ ation and Training): The member speaks about the student social allowances, and I think she knows that students may, in fact, at the high school level, attend programs within their local high schools, within their home high-school area. That has been an option. That continues to be an option. Student Social Allowan ces Program Reinstatement Ms. Jean Fr iesen (Wolseley): The mini ster must know that is not an option for over half the students on that program.

Is the Minis ter of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) aware that metro Toronto has 12 ,500 students on social allowance who attend high school? Will she reconsider her defence of this program, and will she allow those 1 ,200 students in Manitoba to complete their high school programs? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Servl•c:es): We have ind icated, as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) has, that many difficult decisions had to be made within this budget. We have indi cated that those students have some options they can pur su e.

We are cur rently in discu�ISions with the City of Winnipeg on some of those options. Students historically have gone to school part time and worked part time, and there are options available for them. Ms. Fr iesen: Is the Minister of Education aware that the New Brunswick Income Assistance branch su pports 1 ,500 students who live away from home because they are in danger in their homes, and attend high school, and will she reconsider and bring back those 1 ,200 Manitoba students into the classrc>om? Mr. Glllleshammer: Mr.

Speaker, we have made those budget decisions, and I have indica ted to memb•ers opposite that there are opportunities for those stu dents , all of them making indi vidual decis ions how they are going to pu rsue their education, either on a full-time or part-time basis. Brandon General Hospital Mammog raphy Services Mr. Leonard Evans (Brando n Ea st): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minis ter of Health .. Women in the Westman area continue to wait an una ccep tably long pe riod of time for a mammography test for breast cancer.

A recent example is a woman whose family has a history of breast cancer and whose doctor subm itted her name to the Brandon Ge neral Hospital last November, and now, seven months later, she has still not been given a date when she can have this procedure at the Brandon Gener al Hospital, and as a result, is suffering considerable stress.

Will the minister now reconsider his position and provide the necessar y funds to the Brandon Gener a1l Hospital to allow it to reduce the waiting lis ts from 10 mon ths to something more acceptli ble, such as the 1 0-day waiting period in the city of Winnipeg? * (1 400) Hon. l:tonald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr. Speak•:H, I appreciate my honou rable friend's questi on, and my honourable friend knows that the

/ June 24, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4682 waiting time which is longer in Brandon is for elective mammographies. If a circums tance exists, as he described for a woman in the Brandon region-if a circum stance like that exists where there is a history of breast cancer in the family, those are the kinds of circums tances with which physicians rec ommend, not an elective mammography but priority access to the service.

Now, I would appreciate if my honourable friend can share with me in private the individual's name so we can investigate that, because that clearly, Sir, is, if the circums tances exist as my honourable friend says, not an appropriate referral to mammography for that individual. I woul d be very in ter ested in pursu ing that because I am advised that in circums tances where there is some immediacy and urgency, the delay or the waiting time for mammography in Brandon is not very much different from what it is for similar circums tances in Winnipeg. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the minis ter this question. How can he continue to discri min ate against those wcmen in Westman whose doctors want them to obtain a mammography test? Yes, elective, as the minister states, but the women in Winnipeg who are on the same elective basis can have a test done within days. In Brandon, you wait 1 0 months plus. I say this is a cl ear qu estion of discrimination in view of the fact that the incidence of death from breast cancer is the highest- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, I am fru strated with dealing with this issue with my honourable friend, because my honourable friend wants to make all sorts of allegations that are not correct, absolutely not correct in terms of this government discriminating against women or anybody in the Westman region. It has been this government that was leading the charge for CAT scanning, for instance, in Brandon General Hospital, dragging the government of the day, then kicking and screaming, along to put it in. It was this party representing Brandon and the Westman region that est ablished dialysis in Brandon.

It was this government that established cardiac su pport services for the Westman region in Brandon General Hospital for the service of all those individuals. Now, Mr. Speaker, what I want to say to my honourable friend is that he can attempt to raise this issue for a fear campaign and a partisan campaign, but it will avoid the issu e of expert opinion as to the value of mammography as a screening mechanism for women un der 50.

Study after study after study says that is a waste of resource which would deny services, if in vested there , to other areas of health care which my honour able frien d would then stand up and complain about. Sir, for needed mammography in Westman region, a physician has the opportunity to make that service available for a woman so jud ged as in need and that is appropriate. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, it is amusing and amazing how this min ister can rewrite history. He knows darn well that it was the previous NDP government that put the CAT scan- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for debate.

The honou rable member for Brandon East, with your question, please. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, I want to [interjection] It is not me that is saying you are discriminating against- Mr. Speaker : Order, please. The honourable member for Brandon East, with your qu estion now, please. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr.

Speaker, will the minister und ertake to study the firm recommendations and the position of the National Cancer Ins titute of the Uni ted States which maintains that if every woman over the age of 50 years-[interjection] Well, you can make light of this if you want, but there are women in Westman who are damn afraid of this issue because of the inaction of this government. You are discriminatin g-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Will the minister under take to look into this, because there is evidence that if women had an annual test, that the deaths from breast cancer could be cut by one-t hird, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, Ne w Democrats constantly amaze me. Now they want to adopt the American for-profit system which has every woman from 20 years up going for a mammography test for profit for the physician, for profit for the radiologist.

4683 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 24, 1993 I prefer in this case to rely on a Canadian study which says exactly the opposite, Sir. On the one hand, my honourable friend decries American consultants and then the next time, when it fits their narrow partisan approach to health care, they want to adopt American policy. Well, Sir, we will use the best advice we can get, regardless of whether it comes from the United States or any part of the world in making health care available, affordable, effective and preserving medi care in Canada.

We wi ll not take the knee-jerk, crazy reaction my honourable friend would suggest from time to time, without, I might say, much knowledge- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minis ter of Health has had an opportunity to answer the question. Now we are moving on. Firearms Control Government Position Ms. Avis Gr ay (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, we were concerned this week when we heard that the Jus tice min ister had made comments in Brandon and he talked about a need to relax gun control laws. The Min ister of Justice (Mr.

McCrae) has cer tainly been on record in this House as espousing tougher gun control laws, and we are very concerned about his commen ts which would indicate the opposite. Can the Premier today clarify the position of this government respecting gun control laws? Hon. Gary Fllmon (P remier): Mr. Speaker, is that sort of reminiscent of the member for Ink ster (Mr. Lamoureux) talking about having more casinos in Manitoba when he was running for the leadership? [interjec tion] Oh, yes, we recognize that he will never be a min ister. That is true. We recognize that. Mr.

Speaker, in fairness to the Minis ter of Justice, I will take that question as notice. I think he should answer in his own terms to clarify what appears to have been a misu nderst anding. Ms. Gr ay: Mr. Speaker, the Min ister of Justice said: Decent law-abiding gun owners, many of them hu nters and farmers, should not be treated like criminals. I would like to ask the Pr em ier , who is responsib le for this government: Is it the governmen t's policy and does this government believe that the curr ent gun control laws do treat individua ls like crimin als? Is that the position of this government? Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, I think it is very clear to anybody in my party that any decent, law-abiding citizen should not be treated like a criminal. If the Liber als believe otherwise, let them say so. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, that quote came from the Min ist·er of Justice (Mr. McCrae). We are very concerned that we have a Min ister of Justice who is talking about relaxing gun control laws outside of- Mr. S1peaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Cresce ntwood, ki ndly put your questicm. Point of Order Hon. C:::: layton Manness (Government House Leader): On a poin t of order, I refer you, Mr.

Speakt:tr, to Beauchesne 409.(1 0): "A qu estion ought not to refer to a statement made outside the House by a Minister." That is very clear. Mr. Speaker, I say the que stion in the vein of questioning put forward by the member is out of order. Mr. Kt1 vln Lamo ur eux (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, it is very important that we find out in terms of what this government's policy is on gun contr ol. The qu estion is not out of order. It is seeking a respom1e from the Premier to clarify government policy on gun control. Mr. Spt�a ker: Order, please.

On the point of order raised, the honourable governmen t House leader did not have a point of order. The honourable membe1r for Cresce ntwood clearly did state that the honourable Min ister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) had made a. certain remark or comment, but in her qu estion she also did ask what was the policy of the government. I am going to ask the honourable member for Crescentwood to put your que stion now, please. *** Ms.

Gn•y: My question to the Premier is-w hat I want to know is the first qu estion that I asked that you did not answer, which is: What is the policy of this govt:�rnment respecting gun control laws? We want it clarified.

June 24, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4684 Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Very quickly, I will clarify that. The honourable member is repeating a question which was previously asked, and it is therefore out of order. Now, if the honourable member for Crescent wood would like to rephrase her question, please. *** * (141 0) Ms. Gray: Can the Premier of this province tell us, does this government support the fact that there should be tougher gun control laws? Mr. Fllmon: Tougher than what? 811147 Correspondence Request Mr. Doug Martindale (Bu rrows): Mr.

Speaker, security deposits-- [interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order, please. We are moving right along here now. We have the honourable member for Bu rrows, who has the floor. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, secu rity deposits of low-income tenants have been a perennial problem, particular ly when some slum landlords refuse to return the securi ty deposit at the end of a tenancy.

The Residential Tenancies Act, which was sup ported in this House by all three parties, had very strict provisions to try to cure this very serious problem which frequently forced people to take food money for their next securi ty deposit and forced people to resort to food banks. When the act was being debated, landlords were opposed to the security deposit provisions in trust. Now, less than 1 0 months after the act was proclaimed, this government is withdrawing those provisions with undue haste.

I would like to ask the Min ister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs: Will she table a list of all landlords and landlord groups and tenants and tenant groups who met with her or who phoned her or wrote her reques ting specifically that she withd raw secu rity-deposit-in-trust provisions from the act? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affa irs) : Mr. Speaker, no one has specifically asked that we wi thdraw securi ty deposits from the act. A lot of people have expressed concerns about the amount of time that was being taken to deal with this.

The administrative staff at the branch whose workload has increased by 300 perce nt-and that is the figure that we looked at from last year to this by virtue of having to handle security deposit accounts just in terms of handling the files-have said this change will cause increase in cost and size to government of probably in the area of about 1 0 extra staff in order to handle the auditing of these , to handle a $1 ,000- to $2,00 0- a-year problem. The cost of that seemed greatly excessive to the branch.

Tenants had requested specifically a compen sation fund which gives greater protection than the trust deposits ever did. That we are able and willing to provide for them at this time, Sir. Residential Tenancies Act Security Deposits Mr. Doug Marti ndale (Bu rrows): Mr. Speaker, I am disappointed the minister would blame her staff when it is really landlords who want this change.

I would lik e to ask the minis ter, when The Residential Tenancies Act was proclaimed, if landlords were requir ed to have their secu rity deposits in trust on September 1, 19 92, or whether there was a year of grace extending to Septe mber 1, '93, and when was the deadline- Mr. Speaker: The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Min ister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, there were several ques tions in there, and I think I know what the member is trying to indic ate or infer by his remarks.

I would indic ate to him that the greater protection that is in here, because of the changes that are being made for tenants, is what he really should be concerned about. There was no un due pressure put upon this government by landlords. The security deposit provisions-any landlord who puts forwards a bad track record, we sti ll can order those secu rity deposits into the branch. That was a result of consultation by tenants, which is what I thought he was looking to have us do. Mr.

Marti ndale: I would like to ask the min ister: Why did she not use the money that was already in her department for a compensation fund and get

4685 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 24, 1993 the staff to enforce the current provisions, instead of caving in to pressure from her landlord friends? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Speaker, this is about the fifteenth time that member has said, "caving in to pressure" from her Tory landlord friends. I resent it, it is not true, it is wrong. I am im proving the system here for the bette rmen t of the marketplace for tenants, for landlor ds, for the taxpayer who has to be concerned about the cost and size of government, which this member is not concerned about.

He would rather have tenants, who are taxpayers, pay more taxes to build an empire in a particular government branch for no reason that I can see that would protect the marketplace, because what we have here will protect the marketplace better. I spoke on this bill extensively yesterday. I do not know if he heard what I said. I look forward to him putting this bill into committee so we can debate it at length, rather than snip at knee-jerk qu estions in Question Period. Asesslppl Provincial Park Ski Hill-Conditional Approval Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radi sson): Mr.

Speaker, this government received a proposal for a ski hill at Asessippi Provincial Park, and the researcher hired to provide background environme ntal information found critical habitat for rare migratory birds that woul d be destr oyed if the ski dev elopmen t proceeded. My ques tion is for the Min ister of Natural Resources: Has his department reconsidered its conditional approval for this project, based on the research information that was provided? Hon. Ha rry Enns (Min ister of Natural Resour ces): Mr.

Speaker, the department will, as in all other instances, make its position known with respe ct to any proposals within our natural envir onment when the proponen t follows the provisions of The Envir onment Act and in fact places a pr oposal before it. That, to my knowledge , has not been done at this time. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, what are the conditions for this approval, for the cond' 1tional approval, if there is shown that development is going to destroy an environmen tal-sens itive area? What possible conditions could there be to reject a proposal, if not that it is going to do this?

Can the minister tell us what is it that his Wildlife branch in his dep artmen t recommended with respEtct to this proposal, based on this research information? Mr. E�nns: Mr. Speaker, at some point I would like the honourable members of the opposition to at least acknowledge that we take very seriously in government due and proper process. My department advised the proponents that prior to an}• further thinking about this development, they would! be well advised to seek some expert advice, hire s:omebody to provide that advice to them.

I believe the department and my colleague there within Rur al Development, in fact, provided some funding for that advice. Thi!� is the advice that is now coming forward, that, in fact, there are some sensitive qu estions relating to the particular species of bird life, wildlife in that area. That was done at our in stigation, internally, within this government, because we take the causes of the natural environment extremely seriously. When that information is brought back to appropriate department officials, that will all go into the mix of developing a proposal. Ms. Cer llll: Mr.

Speaker, it is good that we have environme ntal studies going on. Now let us follow them and- Mr. SJ,eaker: Your question, please. Ms. Ctarllll: I would ask the minister: If we cannot count tJn this type of critical habitat to be protected in a pELrk in Manitoba, where can we count on this habitat to be protected? How and in what form? Mr. Enns: Mr.

Speaker, I am going to answer the honourable member this way, because honourable membt:trs will be aware that on another matter that concerned the natural environment, namely, the development at Oak Hammock Marsh, it was often falsely alleged by member s opposite and regrettably by the media, that we were in some way in vi olation of the Ramsar Convent ion, that intern ationally renowned organization th at monit ,ored and, in fact, privileged our Oak Hammock Marsh with its designation. Just last week, 3, 000 of the world's speci alists con ciL ided a Ramsar Convention at Kus hiro, Japan.

They concluded with a resolution calling for specific developmen ts for pu blic educ ation, precisEtly the kind that this province built at Oak Hammock Marsh. This was led by .... They applaud the actions taken and there has been no

June 24, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4686 suggest ion, in fact, they view in official resolution. In fact, they go so far they further recommend that appropriate share of wetland conservation funds should be allocated for this kind of public educat ion. Mr. Speaker, once again, Manitoba leads in this quest. School Division Boundary Review Information Release Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, a month ago, on May 26, I asked the Min ister of Education in terms of what she was doing with the school division boundaries. She then indic ated that we would be doing something shortly.

We have a government that has made an election campaign based on boundary redistribution, a commitment in terms of the throne speech. Mr. Speaker, my question to the minis ter is: When will this minister provide det ails of the proposed review of the school division boundaries? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minis ter of Ed ucation and Trai ning): Mr. Speake r, the member antici pates what will be in any announcement that I am making. As I said to him earlier, I will be making an announcement regarding that particular in itiative shortly. Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Qu esti ons has expired. * (1 420) Nonpolitical Statements Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Kil donan have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Dave Chomlak (KI Idonan): Mr.

Speaker, I, together with many members of this Chamber, had the pleasure of attending the annu al Negev dinner in Winnipeg honouring the Simkin Family-Jenny Cohen, Clare Erlichman, Jim Simkin, Saul Simkin, Israel Simkin and Abe Simkin, six members of a pioneering family who, through their community efforts and hard work, have transformed our community and made it into the kind and caring place that it is. This is a pioneer family, Mr.

Speaker, which rose from modest roots to become "a phenomenal Canadian success story." As a testament to the love and resoect that is felt by the community toward this family, over 1, 800 people attended the dinner that night, making it the largest Jewish National Fund dinn er in the entire world. The proceeds from this dinner will go toward the many dynamic projects undertaken in Israel by this organization. I am sure all members of this House will join me in honouring the Jewish National Fund as well as the Simkin family on this outstanding offer. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable Leader of the second opposition party have leave to make a nonp olitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Paul Ed wards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I, too, had the honour and the privilege of attending the recent dinner this week held in honour of the Simkin family. I know that the Premier (Mr. Film on) was in attendance as well, perhaps other members of the Chamber. Mr.

Speaker, I want to join comments with my colleague the member from the New Democratic Party in honouring officially in this House the valuable contribution of the Simkin family over the many decades that they have been active in the Winnipeg and Manitoba community. Mr. Sp eaker, I simply wan t to add my cong ratulations to that family on their enormous success and thank the m for their enormous contribution to this community. The dinner was a magnificent success.

As my friend indic ated, there were over 800 people in attendance, I think test ament to the very high regard that all, not only in the Jewish community but throughout this city and this province, have for the Simkin family. Thank you. Committee Changes Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic De velopment be amended as follows: the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) for the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner). I move, seconded by the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr.

Pallister), that the composition of the St anding Committee on Law Amendm ents be amended as follows: the member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Ste fanson) for the member for Riel (Mr. Ducharme); the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render) for the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae); the member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) for the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister); the

4687 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 24, 1993 member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey) for the member for Em erson (Mr. Penne r); and the member for Roblin-Russell (Mr. Derkach) for the vacant position. Motions agreed to. Mr. Kevin Lamour eux (Inks ter): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Cresce ntwood (Ms. Gray), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendmen ts be amended as follows: River Heigh ts (Mrs. Carstairs) for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), for June 24, 7 p.m . Motion agreed to. ORDE RS OF THE DAY House Busin ess Hon. Cla yton Manness (G overnment House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, on House business, firstly I woul d like to annou nce that the Standing Committee on Law Amendmen ts will meet on Tuesday, June 29, at 7 p.m. to consider Bill 14 , The Personal Property Secu rity and Consequential Amendmen ts Act. Mr. Spe aker: I would like to thank the honourable government House leader for that information . Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I would ask whether or not ther e is a wi lling ness to waive private members' hour. Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour? No? Okay, leave is denied. Mr. Manness: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consi der of the Supply to be granted to Her Maje sty with the honou rable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Educa tion and Training ; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs.

Dacqu ay) in the Chair for the Department of Health. • (1 430) COMMITT EE OF SU PPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUC ATION AND TRAINING Mr. Deputy Cha irperson (Mar cel Laur endeau): Order, please. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume cons ideration of the Estimates of Education and Training. Whttn the committee last sat, it had been consid ering item 6.( a)(1 ) on page 42 of the Esti me1tes book. Mr. Fleg Alcock (Osbor ne) : Mr. Dep uty Chairperson, I note that the critic for the NDP party is not here. Should we not wait until they arrive? Mr. Dttputy Chair pers on: We can carry on the qu estictning. Mr. Al•�ock: Perhaps you could instruct me as to procedu re in the committee then. Is it the procedure to go ahead when one of the official critics i:s not here? Mr.

D'eputy Cha irper son: The honou rable membe1r for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) had said she was finished on the Colleges Sec retariat. I unders tood the member for Osborne still had some ques tie>ns in that area, so we were taking the opportunity to give you the chance to ask questions on that li ne, and that is 6. (a)( 1) Colleges Secretariat. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I was simply asking JfOU the question, whether it is customary to proceed without the presence of both critics. Mr. Deputy Chair per son : There have been a number of occasions when we have started with just one member.

If the honourable member would rather wait un til the critic for the opposition gets here, it is at the will of the committee. If you would like to wait until such time as they get here, then that is what we will do. Mr. Alc�ock: Mr. Deputy Chairperson , I am prepared to proceed, but it does concern me that we would start the committee without at least giving the other members an opportunity to be present in case the1y do have questions. Mr. Deputy Chair per son : Well, this committee was called to order in the House 15 minutes ago, for the honourable member for Osborne.

I believe that is enough time for just about everybody to be

June 24, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4688 here. They know the meeting has been called, and I believe it is up to all members to be here on time. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minis ter of Ed ucation and Training): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have some items to table at the beginning of the session today. I have information on response to inquir ies regarding three companies under the Workforce 2000 training incentives component, and I would like to table those now. Then, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, under Workforce 2000, there was a question regarding training incentives to small-and medium-siz ed businesses, support to priority groups through wage-assisted training, and I have that to provide today. It is broken down by region, nu mber of employees trained and the total number of priority group members trained. Then, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there was information requested regarding our Partners with Youth program, approved sponsors and project descriptions. I have those today, and this is for the 19 92-93 year. Then, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I have a list under Workforce 2000, a list of trainers and training type under the Workforce 2000 program. What I will table today is the legal name of the company receiving training, the trainer name and the training type. The training type is by code, and so I would also like to table today the expl anation of the training codes to go along as an explanation with this document. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I also have to table, on behalf of Manitoba's commun ity colleges, the percentage of enrollments in the 18 -to-24-years of-age group.

The request was for the percentage of enrollment in that age range for the last five years. I have the information to table today from the year 19 88-89 through to 19 92-93. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I thank the minis ter for the information, and I will see that it is passed on. I have a question. I unde rstood that we had passed the line dealing with Workforce 2000. I realize what the minis ter is doing is just following up with stuff that was committed, but I note that the staff and such are here. Is there an intention to recall them for further ques tion ing? Is it necessary that they stay here? Mrs.

Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the staff who are here are staff who support the Colleges Secretariat. Mr. Alcock: Actually, perhaps the minister could, for my benefit at least, introduce the staff who are here and are in volved with the College s Secretariat. Mrs. Vodrey: Let me take a moment to introduce Dominique Bloy, who is the Assistant Deputy Minis ter of the AEST Division; Mr. Bob Gorchynski, who is the Acti ng Di rector of Management Services-! introduce them by the title, since there has been a reorganization in the AEST branch and these are now titles under the reorganization-Mr.

Earl McArthu r, who is the Acting Director of the Labour Market Policy Planning and Analysis Branch; Mr. Rick Dedi, who is the Acting Director of the Colleges Secretariat; and Margaret McDonald who is the Financial Officer. Mr. Alcock: Thank you. I note there are staff present in the back of the room who were here for Workforce 2000 and other programs. It jus t seems such an enormous waste to have people sitting around doing nothing. I have no int en tion of calling any qu estions about Workforce 2000, certainly. Mrs. Vodr ey : Mr. Deput y Chairperson, I appreciate that.

The staff did arrive with the information to be tabled. Having brought that information, they have remained for a couple of moments to see if there was any clarification required by members. Perhaps that clarification may not have been through the Estimates process, but the I thank the member. The staff have now left, back to their offices. Mr. Alcock: I thank the minister for that. We left last session talking about the relationship between Government Services and the colleges, given the change in governance.

The minister men tioned that at ACC, parking and security is done by the Government Services under contract. The question that arises from that for me is, is there an attempt to build a special operating agency that does contract to the colleges in the same way that Government Services has worked to create a special operating agency that contracts with the governmen t departmen ts around the services of automobiles and repair? * (1 440)

4689 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 24, 1993 Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we are not aware of any attempt or effort in that direction. The member may lik e to speak to the Minis ter of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme), however, in the process of his Estim ates to determine if any discussion is held with him . Mr. Alcock: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, how has it arisen then that at ACC there is this arrangement? What is the history of that? Mrs. Vod rey: In the case of ACC, this was a matter of operating efficiencies. It would seem to be more efficient in that particular college.

It was not a matter of program delivery; therefore, there was an agreement on all sides that this would be contracted through Government Services. Mr. Alcock: Has there been a discussion about contracting similarly at the other colleges for these services? Mrs. Vod rey: Mr. Deputy Chair, Keewatin Community College does their security by contract. They have done so in the past and continue to do so. Red River Community College, the largest of all the colleges, has found it economical to have its own. Mr.

Alcock: As I recall the discussion from last Tuesday, the parking and security services at Red River are handled by staff that formerly worked for Government Services and that have been transferred to the employing authority of Red River? Mrs. Vod rey: That is correct. Mr. Alcock: And in the case of KCC it contracts privately for these services? Mrs. Vodrey: That is correct. Mr. Alcock: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, if we can move on then to a question that came up, as I recall, in the Estimates in the previous year's budg et-and at that time it was specifically about Red River Community College, although there was an indication, I believe, from the minister that the department was considering generalizing it to the other colleges- this is the whole question of the intr oduction of Total Quality Management to the operations of the colleges. I wonder if the min ister can give us some background on the progress to date and the programs that have been instituted and whether or not it goes beyond Red River.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, Red River Community College, I am told, does continue to expand its commitment to operating within the princip les of Total Quality Management, and a numb er of work improvement teams have been established to address various process-related issue�;. Approximately one-third of the college staff have now participated directly in a TOM approach, and the college is looking to develop the capability to pwvide tr aining wit hin the Man itoba-wide network. Thet other commu nity colleges have not implemented TOM. I am informed that they are looking at TOM or other related style s.

I unde r:stand that Red River Commu nity College recently won a quality service award from TOM Manitetba. Mr. Alcock: Can the mini ster just clarify the comm•mt that Red River is about to provide training in "the Manitoba-wide network"? What does that mean? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Depu ty Chair, Red River Communi ty College is part of a TOM network. It has been organized through Winnipeg 2000. It is called 0-Net, and it is a quality network. It is primarily with in Winnipeg, though some of the busines ses wit hin Winnip eg that are using this have also sub sidiaries outside of the city of Winnipeg.

Through this, Red River Commu nity College participates as a member. They, at the moment, particularly the president of Red River Commun ity Colleget who has a strong level of expertise in this area, have participated in some training which at the moment is not a training which is charged for, but is part of the work done by this network. Howev•�r. Red River Community College may, in fact, look into some customized delivery of TOM, and that may, in fact, operate as a market-driven training course. Mr.

Alc:ock: So Red River is a member of this Q-Net, wh ich is the Mani toba-wide network, presumably, of people or busine sses or whatever that are interested in TOM. Red River is cu rrently or may in the future provide training to members in the network? Mrs. Vctdrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the training that is provided is not a training for cost or for payment. At the moment, it is done through the network. It is done collegially through the network as a support to develop TOM. However, it is possible that in the futur e R:ed River may, in fact, develop, depending

June 24, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4690 upon the demand, a course in the market-driven training area. Mr. Alcock: ACC and KCC have not cu rrently instituted programs in TOM, although you indicated that they may soon introduce something that is either TOM based or "other related styles." What might these other related styles be? * (1 450) Mrs. Vodrey: First of all, the m9mber has gotten a little bit ahead of what I had said. They are looking at, they have not yet said that they intended to introduce, this kind of programming.

The president of Red River Commun ity College has met with the presidents of the other colleges and has certainly explained the TOM process and how it applies to Red River. The colleges are also looking at the Canadian Comprehensive Auditing Foundation program, the 12 attributes of effect iveness, all of them aimed at improving. However, the 9olleges have not indicated when they would adopt such a system, if they would adopt such a system, and which one that they would be looking at. Mr. Alcock: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I recall a discussion last year that the new president at Red River has a background-! believe there was some discussion, I think, from his experience at Thunder Bay where he had been involved in the introduction of TOM and was presented as someone who had a reasonable degree of expertise in this. That is why Red River was proceeding with this. I wonder if the min ister can tell us what programs have been introduced at Red River that would fall into this category of Total Quality Management? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chair, in terms of the accomplishmen ts over the past year, I may have stated those already, that Total Quality Manage ment concep ts have been introduced into many aspects of the institutional operation over the past year, and approximately one-half of the staff have been directly involved in the projects relating to improving the processes associated with the support of the administrative and the academic process.

For 19 93-94 the objectives are to use the TOM techniq ues to improve the ergonomics of the classrooms, labs and office space; to use the TOM approach to address the rec ommendations from the president's task force on services to aboriginal and mul ticultural com mun ities, and to complete the review of all diploma-level cu rricula by June 19 93 for the pu rposes of incorporating appropriate TOM concep ts and methods, the fun damentals of economic su stainable developmen t and an understanding and an appreciation for cultural diversity. Mr. Alcock: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, it is a fairly standard observation of TOM programs that they produce on average 1 0 percent improvements in efficiency per annum during their implementation phase. I am wondering if the mini ster can tell us what the experience has been at Red River. Have they seen any improvements in efficiency? Can they point to reduct ions in cost, ease of improvemen t? I mean, we are talking fairly generally here, but what of a su bstantive natur e has occur red in the last year under the direction of this new president? Mrs.

Vodrey: I am informed that we do not have any statistical information on the gains in this year because it is has been a fairly new implementation. However, the gains have been more noted through the development of a college team. That has been actually noted just in the way that the college team is working. Also, there has been noted, again by observation within the college, an effect iveness in the area of the manage ment of equipment and resources. Now people's familiarity with the whole idea of TOM is allowing them to apply the principles of TOM through some of the college initiative s.

One of the initiatives that I had spoken about was in the area of the president's task force on services to aboriginal and mul ticultural communities. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess the problem I have, and it comes back to the same problem I had when we discussed this last year, is that there is a lot of high-min ded labelling going on in the sense that wonderful things are happening under the name TOM, but the reality is, when you come down to an accomplishment: Did something happen faster? Did something happen at a lower cost? Were some steps in a process removed?

Were applications processed faster? It is fine that they have a team, and I suspect they may even have T-shir ts or something that subst antiate that. But what has happened that improves life on a daily basis for the students at that schools? Or what has happened that makes the working conditions better for people who work there? What has been the product of this other

4691 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 24, 1993 than a variety of meetings, training and feel-good work sessions? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, I know last year when we spoke of the goals of TOM, we spoke about them in terms of measurement or, actually, categorization within a behavioral area and within a statistical area. I have said that we do not have that statistical information that I can provide the member with this year, because it is in its first full year of operation. • (1 500) What I have been able to describe to the member is the behavioural effects of TOM in this first year.

I am certainly in formed that those who are very involved with the college of the sense of ownership and the creation of this sense of teamwork that people are, in fact, working as part of a group and people's opinions are important. I think that is one way. Again, it is hard to measure based on a statistic, but it is able to be measured behaviourally and cer tainly in the tone that is set out at the college.

In terms of efficiencies, though I have spoken in the Hous e previously and I may also have spoken about it within Estimates, one area where Red River has looked for improvement has been in the area of the registration of students. Previously, students could register for a number of courses, and it was very difficult to actually then determine the number of actual students applying, because one student may have applied for five or six cour ses. In th is coming year, one of the improvemen ts has been that there will be one student number or one number for each student.

Then we will have an idea of the same student applying to a number of courses. So we will have a better idea of how long the real potential enrollment list may be, or that a person may be looking for a priority acceptance into one area, followed by a second or a third choice. Again I would say that we would certainly be looking in the second year for some measurable, other than behaviourally measurable, results of TOM in the college. I am sure the college will be looking to that as well. Mr. Alcock: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, it just strikes me that we get caught up in sort of new fads and new approaches to management. God knows, we have been through a number of them in the last de cade. I would not want to even begin to enumE •rate them all, but it strikes me that prior to-1 mean, is the position that has been taken that, prior to the cu rrent president, people's opinions were not impontant at the school, that people were not listened to? What is it that TOM has brough t to the manag1ement of the school?

The concern I had last year was that when you introduce TOM, if you are not introducing it to an indus trial process, if you do not ha1ve the statistical processes in place to measure the current situation and then to identify the opportunities for improvement in others, what you may have is very little different from what we have had for the last 20 years in te rms of attempting to build dif ferent approaches to communi cation. What TOM offers is an ability to measure both the curr ent situation and then to substantiate some change or some improveme nts as they are introduced.

Now what I am hearing the minister saying is that, after one year of doing this, they have nothing other than a different feeling. You know, they could have a different feeling from any one of the labels that could be applied to a change in management. Mrs. V4)drey: I know last year in the Estimates, we had a fairly lengthy discussion on the issue of TOM, because I know the member has been viewing it as is this--as he said even again today-one of several choices that may be used and used for a short time without any real changes, and then maybe another style or another particular program may be adopted.

I can only at this point-! think it is important to go back to how the president and the people of Red River Communi ty College have identified the effects of TOM for themselves. One of the areas, and I spoke about this earlier, is that approximately one-half of the staff have been directly involved in projec ts related to improving the processes associa1ted with the support of the administrative and the academic process. I did uive the member an example of the changes put forward in the registration program, identified and the'n actually put into action. Things have to start somewhere.

In this case, it is putting together a team, a team that has a variety of skills, as opposed to a very sin gle and narrow focus where one in dividua l may look at det ermining what ch ange•s may be made. So there has been a

June 24, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4692 change, and it has been reported to me as an important one , where staff is now involved at a much wider level in te rms of projects and involved in the process. Then I also spoke about the TOM approach being used to address the recommendations from the president's task force on services to aboriginal and mu lticultural commun ities. A conc rete step that has come from that is an additional

section of 15 students will be added to the college preparation for natives program, as part of the plan to incr ease aboriginal student en rollment by 25 percent. An additional 15 aboriginal students will be accepted into the urban native in tegration and adaptation program, a microcomputer application program. So flowing from the results of the task force, how that task force would be implemented and applied within the college, there has now come some very specific concrete direction that will affect the student life of the college.

In the two examples, registration, and also this particular program, that is one way that students then will feel the effects , and we hope and believe they will benefit from the effects of this particular management style, which again, I will remind the member is really just into its first year at Red River Community College. Mr. Alcock: I will leave this jus t with a couple of commen ts, as I will not be here to ask these questions in the subsequent budget year. TOM is a process that grew out of really industrial programs, where they had an ability to measure very carefully.

Statistical process control was a central part of this. The concern I have had from the beginning when I start hearing people talk about this as a management technique in soft service, in human services, is that it is very difficult to do that without the measurement base. I believe you can create that in some areas. I think it is very difficult, but I think it would be a very exciting experiment if you could, in fact, create some of those measures and begin to look at really what is occurring other than we feel bette r or we commun icate better.

What new manager in an organization has not said his senior staff communic ate better as a result of his or her nqw processes, whether you call them TOM or quality circles or commun ication circles, whatever label you want to attach to them. For me, the interesting thin g about this attempt to in troduc e a new management style or a new management process into a college as opposed to a business is that as soon as you step out of the tran sactional processing arena, you have a measu rement problem. I do no t say that pejoratively. The excitement may be in how you solve that.

I would be very interested in hearing about that. I un de rstand that it is only a year, and the minister is saying that they can point to some things on the feeling side and then some process things with the registration although it is hard to clarify. But that would be a transactional area that one would presume there could be some measures and some comparisons in.

So I will leave this just with the comment that I would be inte rested in fut ur e years in hearing whether or not you have been able to establish some of those measuremen ts and some of those pr ocess es, and we can look to some real implementation of a managed quality program. I will move off of TOM at this point. I would like to ask though a question about this. The desire to choose TOM in Red River has not been replic ated in the other two commu nit y colleges.

Is that simply because the desire or the agreement to move towards TOM was in part a result of the new president h aving these skills and having this background? Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that TOM often does get started with someone referred to through the system as a champion, someone with experience, and that is what has happe ned at Red River Commun ity College. The president does have that kind of experience and background and therefore was wanting to put it int o place at Red River. * (15 1 0) Mr. Alcock: And the minist er is quite right.

So it was not a result of a governm ent policy to move in this directi on, and there will not necessarily be a proliferation. Certainly, if the presiden t at Red River creates something uni que and int eresti ng, and other presidents choose to adopt it, they could do so, but the other colleges are completely free to move in their own direction? Mrs. Vodrey: Those colleges are free to move in their own direction and have indica ted they are looking at other systems as well.

4693 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA June 24, 19 93 Mr. Alcock: Mr. Deput y Chair, I know the member for Wolseley had some qu estions , and I am prepared to leave TOM, although I have more questions on the secretariat. If the member has some qu estions she can go for awhile, and I will come back. Ms. Jean Fr iesen (Wolseley): Thank you. I wanted to raise a procedural issue for a minute. There are two basic lines dealing with colleges. Is the minister prepared to take all the questions on colleges and then pass them both at the same time or pass them one after another? Mrs.

Vodrey: Yes, we will try and answer the qu esti ons then in that block and provide the information in whatever order it is required. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, I wanted to ask about Assiniboine Community College and the international programs there, particularly. I think these have been touched on in earlier Estimates, but I am really looking for a progress report and some in dic ation of how these have been established and what their plans are for the next year. (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) Mrs. Vod rey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chair, there are several int ernati onal projects occurring at the colleges. Assinibo ine Commu nity College is currently in volved in projects with Kenya and Tanz ania. Keewatin Commun ity College is anticipating a project with Zanzibar. With Red River, she might like to ask in a further question. Ms. Fr iesen : I am particularly interested right now in the Assin iboine Commu nity College on es. Could the minister give us some more details? Could she tell us, for example, what the purpose of these programs is? How many people are involved both from the host college and from the overseas component?

What the anticipated results of each project will be? What the length of the programs is? That is, are they one year, two years, are we looking at a longer-range planning here? Are there any connections between Assiniboine Community College and Brandon University in the delivery, adm'rnis tration or involvement of these programs? Are we focusing the resources, the academic resources, of both ins titutions in these programs. Is there an economic spin-off for the commun it y of Brandon or other commun ities involv1�d, and does the government have a sense of whs1t it is or will be? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, we do no·t, at this time, have the level of detail the member is asking for, but I will be happy to appro�1ch the college and get that information for her. I am happy to table it at the next sitting. Ms. Fr·lesen: As the minister knows, part of what I am looking for here is establishing what the relatic1n ship is between the gove rnment, the secretariat and the colleges. WoUIId that kind of information I have asked for be included or available from the minu tes of board meetings? We have established that is the primary pub lic llevel of accountability . Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, in this case, as the colleges have moved to govern ance , it is unli kely that they would be available specif ically through the minutes, unl ess they W•9re discussed issue as an agenda item. Howeve r, I am in formed that with the new relati onship, if a person wanted to have that information, the colleges should be able to provide that directly to an individual. The records would, again, have, I suppose, the usual concerns around personnel matters and so on, but otherwise, that information should be available from the colleges. Ms.

Fr iesen : I assume the minutes would show the introduction of such programs. Presumably, it would also show the staffing of them. It might, in an annu al report, look at a kind of status report of each particular program. The 11inal qu estion I asked in that series was what was the economic impact in the communi ties of those particular programs. Now I would antici pate that wo,uld not be conveyed through board min utes or throiJgh board considerations, not that it would not necessarily be part of their deliberations, but that is not their focus.

Their focus would be to deliver the programs and to look at the educational impact and educational evaluation. It dot�s. however, seem to me that it would be the minister's responsibility or the cabinet's, in some way, tCI unde rstand the economic impact of such programs. My sense is that they would be very bene f'rcial. Bu t I am re ally looking for the gove rnme nt's responsibilit y in the us e of commLtnity colleges as part of the government's overall econom ic framework or economic development.

June 24, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4694 * (1 520) Mrs. Vodrey: Just in response to the first part of the member's question, yes, there would be the annual report. The annual report we would expect to cover the details of the work being done at Assiniboine, and the area of in ternational programming and int ernational support would be an important one. In terms of the government's role, government, by policy. does support international programming.

The college' s role in this has been to provide training and development in thir d world countries, and there has been a transfer of training and a transfer of skills. In terms of the direct economic benefit, that has been somewhat more difficult for us to measure. We do know that when we do assist other countries with project development, the technical equipment is acquir ed, where possible, from Canada, and Manitoba, specifically, where possible. So that becomes another part of the benefit, in terms of our equipment, particularly our technical equipment, around the world.

The government of Tanzania was most recently here, and they wer e taken out to Assin iboine Commu nity College. The future benefit of that particular visit, as yet, I am not able to tell the member. There may be future benefits of transfer of programming, certainly more ideas, obviously some professional development among college instruc tors in that particular area. So the overall specific question of economic benefit, I suppose, is somewhat more difficult in each case to speak of, and the details I am not able to provide her today.

I can tell her that to tie the college's task force with the Advanced Education and Skills Training area, this task team has been struck to examine the college in te rnat ional education policy guidelines. So that is one way we are trying to look at the international role. For Assin iboine Commu nity College, as part of their midrange plan, they identified a goal to develop a strategy for invol vement in in te rnational programming opportunities and develop new models for international educational activities that utilize local resources and contribut e to the local economy. Ms.

Fr iesen: I think, if I remember rightly, that the government, or this department rather, did not make a submission to the Rur al Economic Development commission. This department did make a submi ssion to the Northern Economic Development commission, but not to the rural one, and I wondered if there was some substitute for that formal presentation. Has there been a Department of Education position on the role of community colleges, whether it is Red River or Assiniboine or KCC in the futur e economic development of rural Manitoba? (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) Mrs .

Vod rey: In terms of ru ral economic development, the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derk ach) held a forum on rural economic development. The staff from the Department of Educ ation were represen ted at that. We und erstand, I am not able to confirm today, but we believe that the presiden t of ACC also attended that particular forum. ACC has been working with the Brandon Council, the Keystone Agricultural Centre, Brandon Uni versity at looking at ways to establish ACC as a centre of exc ellence, particularly for te chn ology, technological training in the rural areas.

ACC has been working itself with a number of in itiatives to serve the ru ral commu nities. They have the provinc ial mandate for agricul tu ral training. ACC's agricul tural and rur al enterprise division offered 25 programs to 1 ,250 students in 59 Manitoba communi ties in 19 92-93. ACC also currently enrolls 664 participants in 19 agriculture Distance Education courses in 14 0 communi ties, and en rolls 14 0 participants in eight Distance Education business courses in 25 commun ities. Over the past six years, approximately 11 5 rural communi ties have participated in ACC's Distance Education courses.

At ACC's Parkland campus in Dauphin, they offered seven full-time programs to 11 8 students and conti nuing educ ation programs to over 1, 200 residents of the Parkland region, including Ste. Rose, Gilbert Plains, Grandview and McCreary. The Parkland Southwes t Reg ional Cen tre delivered a business skills refresher course to 11 participants who graduated in December, 19 92, and the centre offers several evening courses in co-ope ration with Major Pratt high sch ool in Russell. In 19 93- 94, ACC is offering conti nuing education courses to approximately 450 students in approximately 15 rural Manitoba communities

4695 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 24, 19 93 and is co-operating with school divisions within the ACC catchment area. * (1 530) There are a numb er of other in itiatives. I am wonde ring if this is the kind of in itiatives the member is interested in knowing about regarding ACC's role with rural Manitoba. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, what I was really int erested in is how ACC' s mission is conveyed to it from the government, looking at the role of the government in adjusting, in determining and changing the mandates of the colleges. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, our role at this point is to support ACC in what is seen as their catalyst role within the Brandon community, that role to establish Brandon as a centre of excellence in the area of rural development. Part of that has occurred then through some of the programming offered which I have been describing, some of which takes place actually at the college, some through Distance Education and some through the satellite campuses. Ms.

Friesen: If ACC wanted to go beyond the mandate that the government has established, that is the catalyst for rural development, how would those kinds of changes be accomplished? What I am looking for is, yes, the colleges have gone to governance, they have a certain amoun t of independence and flexibility, but they also derive a su bstantial proportion of their income from the government. There is a policy established now which determines particular roles for particular colleges. How frozen is that? How do those changes occur? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, under The Colleges Act, No. 3, it speaks about the mandate of the college. I know the member has a copy of this or could look at it. I am pleased to provide her with mine if she would like to have it. The mandate of the college is extremely broad, and it has been maintained in that very broad way to allow for the boards then to adapt the colleges to the areas of regional needs and to the areas that they see they are able to develop within their communi ty, within that wide commu nity area.

The governmen t's role providing such a wide-ranging mandate would be to provide program approval through the approval of the budget and woul d also be to monitor th ose programs. That monitoring would occur through the annu al report as well as through the contacts that the secretariat would have with the colleges. Ms. F=rlesen : The annual report is fairly clear. Could the mini ste r explain how that program funding works? The colleges will apply or they will present their budget to the colleges. They will present their asking budget, I assume, to the secr e1tariat and that will be detailed in terms of prognnm.

So, for example, the kinds of questions that I asked on the international programs would presumably have been inclu ded in a request to government. Again, I am looking for-I am using this as: an example of how the relations do work or will wctrk or how you anticipate that they will work. Why woul d you not have the information on the intern�1tional programs, if it had been presented to you as a program proposal? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, part of the dif fen �nce is how the bu dge t this year was provid•�- The budget was provided in a block, not by prc•gram. Next year, the budget will be by formul1:1.

I jU!It wanted to check also regarding the propm1al because, in terms of the in ternational programs, I spoke about some of the programs which were currently ongoing, but now the member speak�1 about a proposal. A proposal has been provid•�d to governme nt, a concept proposal to establi:sh a centr e of excellence for int ernational tr aining in agricul tur e, rural mic roenterprise, secondary proce ssing and valu e-added production. That has come as a proposal from the college to government now. Ms.

F1 •1es en : So that is something that the governmen t is looking at now as part of the overall mandalte of Assiniboine Commun ity College. It is not something which is yet in the budget. Okay, but there have been-1 mean we have talked about this b•�fore-cont inuing relations bet ween Assi nib oine Commu nity College and various overse;!S kinds of programs. When the minister said formula, could I ask her to elaborate on that? In the future the regular practice will be Ito fund by formula. Is that on a per-student basis, per program? How does that work? Mrs. V•�drey: Mr.

Deputy Chair, the development of the formula is one of the tasks of the Colleges Secretariat during the year '93-94 to have in place for the Jrear '94-95.

June 24, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 4696 Ms. Fr ies en: Is that a formula that will be established on a same basis for each college? Is that what the governmen t is aiming for? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, it will be a formula that applies to all colleges. It will be a formula somewhat as the public schools formula is, one which involves principles which will apply to school divisions, and then the schools funding formula, again, allows for in the first year of application and so on to look at how it applies and where there may need to be adjustments.

We will see what is put forward from the Secretariat regarding colleges. Ms. Fr ies en: Will the formula inclu de capital equipment as well as operating grants? Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, it will. Ms. Fr iesen: When would the minister expect this to be put on stream? This will be for the next year's budget? Mrs. Vodrey: It will be in place-we intend it to be in place for the '94-95 budget. Ms. Fr iesen: How will this be announced, and how will it be conveyed to the colleges, and will there be any kind of public discussion before the provision of Es timates? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chair, the colleges will be involved in a consu ltation process as the formula is be ing devel oped, and then the gui delines for the use of this formula will be-the colleges will have that for the budget cycle '94-95. Ms. Frie sen: Can I look at this now from the perspective of establishing fees at the colleges? How have fees been established? Just for the record, if the minis ter could explain how fees were established in last year, how they were established in this first year of governance, and the process for establishing fees in each of the colleges un der the new formula system. • (1 540) Mrs.

Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, in the past the colleges have had the fees set as part of the normal budgeting process, and the way that we look for the tuition fees to be set in the futu re- The Colleges Act gives the boards of governors the authority to set tuition fees; that is 17 (

d) in The Colleges Act. So in practice the colleges will identify tuition fee revenue in their annual budget subm issions, and the department then will review requests for tuition fee changes as part of its annual review of the college budget subm ission. Ms. Friesen: This will be different, then, than the uni versities' process of establishing fees? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, yes, it will be different than the uni versities' establishment of fees. Ms. Friesen: Does the government have a policy of establishing the same fee for the same course in each college? Mrs.

Vodrey: Until now that has been the case wher e the costs for course have been fairly comparable. Certainly, I realize as minister, and the government realizes, that tu ition fees do represent a signif icant factor in the accessibility to communi ty colleges, so we will certainly be viewing tuition fees as an important consider ation in maintaining the accessibility of the communi ty college system and also in reviewing the budgets of the community colleges. Ms. Fr iesen : Mr. Dep uty Chairperson, yes, accessibility is certainly part of the reason I was asking the qu estion, but equity was another.

For example, one could argue that there are higher costs in the delivery of one course in KCC than there are, for example, in delivering it in Brandon or delivering it in a rural area. Again, I am asking the question from an equity perspective. Does the governm en t or will the governmen t have a policy of looking at equal charges or equal fees for the same cou rse throughout Manitoba? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, at this point I can say that certainly as we look at the tuition fees established, we would also look at whe re the course was being offered.

We are in the process, again as I said, of looking at the funding formula for the colleges. All of these issues will have to be considered in the development of that formula. Ms. Fr iesen : Can we expect or anticipate a formal policy statement on the funding formula at some point? Mrs. Vodrey: We will certainly make the funding formula known. How it will be made known, I am not able to commit to today. Ms. Fr iesen: I want to look at the impact of federal cutbacks on community colleges. The minister has often spoken of this.

I wonder if we could have some detailed in formation on the impact of this in the past year on each of the colleges and the antici pated impact next year. I would doubt that

4697 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 24, 19 93 there is a longer planning horizon than that from the federal government, but if there is I would like to hear of it. Mrs. Vod rey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the federal direct training pu rchases will dec rease by 28 percent in 19 93-94, and they are scheduled for elimination by the end of 19 94-95. The federal governm ent will continue to make indir ect or project-based training pu rchases from the colleges in '93-94 and, we un derstand, in subsequent fiscal years.

Historic ally, direct training pu rchases have provided the colleges with ongoing commitmen ts for block pur chases of training in existing college programs. Bl ock purchases provided a high degree of stability and also financial secu rity for the colleges and the provincial ins titut ions. Again, the indirect purchases, which the federal government is moving to, do not provide that gu aranteed level of funding provided under the direct pur chase arrangements. Training is sold to the federal government on a project-by-project basis.

The colleges are in competition with other training suppliers for federal training projects. The new market for training services created by the federal government has requi red the colleges to become more entrepreneurial in order to access the federal training fun ds. Indir ect or contract training is provided through the delivery of training to private or commu ni ty organizations and the pr ovision of tr aining to sp ecific cl ients of Em ployment and Immigration Canada, such as job entry or job re-entry programs.

In 19 94-95, when the direct pu rchase of training ends, Ke ewatin Commun ity College wil l, we expect, have the most difficu lty in accessing alternate funding due to its smaller population base and the proximity of its market area. Assiniboine Commun ity College and Red River Commun ity College have been, so far, relatively more su ccessful in attracting alternate training cl ie nts through their market-dri ven training programs. The provincial contribution, through provincial operating grants in '93-94, will rise by 2.1 percent.

That increas e-w e look to continue to support the college dur ing this change , the fed eral government's method of funding programming. Again, Manitoba has and will continue to express its concerns to the federal government regarding the ne•t loss in federal funding due to the decreased Ul ben efits and also increased Ul premiums in Manitc>ba that have not been fully compensated by the increased federal training expenditures. In this particular area with the Ul benefits, we are concemed about reductions for the communi ty colleg•es. * (1 550) Ms. F1rlesen: Mr.

Deputy Chair, what is the overall impact the n on the commun ity colleges of the elimination of all the federal money by next year and a1n in cre ase of only 2 per cent from the provincial government? What is the net decline, decrense? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the reduction of the federal government can be measured in the direct pur chase area, and we see that reduction as appro>cimately $3.4 million or about 28 percent. It is muc:h harder in the indirect, because those can be ne�1otiated on an ongoing basis. Ms. F1rlesen: I am looking for the impact on the colleges of this.

The 28 percent is a declin e in-tha t is 28 percent less than the federal government contributed last year. What proportion is that of the overall colleges' budget? If we take the ovcHall federal contributions, those that we can measure, the direct pur chases, what is the decrea1se in percen tage terms to the colleges? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the 28 percent reduction of the federal government direct training pur chases at the colleges has had an impact on the budget. College revenues from the federal direct traininn pur chases represented 18 .1 percent of the colleges' expe nditures in 19 92-93 .

Federal pur ch a1ses represent ed only 13 .5 percent of the colleges' expend itures in 19 93-94. That is a predicted loss of $3.4 million from the previous year that I have been discussing. Ms. Fr iesen: So, for example, Red Ri ver Community College, if we take that as an average -the mini ster may want to give me or put on the record the specific colleges. The colleges have lost as a result of the federal changes 13 .5 percent of their budget essen ti ally. Okay, maybe we should take one example, Red River Community Collego.

How much less does it have this coming year as a result of the federal budget, federal pur chase changes? Mrs. Vodr ey : The percentage of the direct pur chase funds was 18 .1 percent of the colleges'

June 24, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4698 expenditures in '92-93. We predict that it will represent 13 .5 percent of the expenditures in '93-94. That would be a change of 5 percent, and that is looking at all three colleges together. Ms. Fr iesen: Maybe we should look at it in the context of one particular college then, jus t to get an idea of how it is going to work. What was the budget of Red River Communi ty College last year, and what will be its budget this year?

I assume there are going to be several componen ts of that budget, but again, I want to go back eventually to fees, how those fees are going to be charged and how they are going to be arrived at. Mrs. Vod rey: Taking, for example, Red River Commu nity College, we predict in expenditures that there will be a reduction of approximately 4.4 percent in the area of expenditures. Now, again, that is a prediction, because the colleges may in fact gain additional funds through the indir ect pur chases and their negotiation for the indir ect purchase with federal dollars. Ms.

Friesen: How will Red River be establishing fees next year? Has it already established its fees? Is there an incr ease in the fees, and how is that an estimate of what is required from fees? Obviously, if you are having a reduction from the federal government, you have a small in crease in the provincial government which is not going to meet the gap. Two ways of meeting the gap: one, the minister says in direct pur chases; the other presumably is fees. So I am looking at the timing on that and the principles that the colleges are going to use. Are fees going to be used?

Essentially, once you have determined what your indir ect pu rchases are, is then the other side of your budget fees, and is that how it is going to be allotted, or are there other principles at work here? Mrs. Vodr ey: I just want to check with the member, because I see that we are now looking at the revenue side for the colleges, because we had spoken about what the expenditures we expect to be. We look at a decrease in revenue from the direct training pu rchases of the federal govern ment, but to support the revenue side, I have also spoken about an incr ease in provincial funding.

Yes, tuition fees are another way to support the revenue side; but, in addition to that, the revenue side can be su pported through course charges for the market-d riven training, and those are cost recoverable. So the revenue changes would not have to be looked at specifically through the area of tuition fees, because the colleges will have other opportunities to increase revenue. * (1 600) Ms. Fr iesen: My concern is that the 2 percent incr ease of the provincial government is not going to be enough to meet the needs of the commun ity colleges, so the pressure upon revenues is going to be high.

That is the basis of my concern . The minister says the provincial government is going to incr ease its contribution by 2 point something, 2.1 percent, 2.3 percent? What is that a percentage of? Is it a percen tage of last year's base which included federal contribution, or is it percentage of last year's provincial contributi on? I gue ss I should not say contributi on; I think it is referred to in the book here as a grant or transfer payment. Mrs. Vod rey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that 2 percent is the diffe rence bet ween last year's provincial grant and this year's provincial grant. Ms. Frie sen: Mr.

De put y Chairpers on, the minister also used two terms on the revenue side. One was course fees for market-d riven training, which are cost recoverable, and the other one she used was tuition fees. I am not sure the distinction that is being made there. Are not the cou rse charges tuition fees? (Mrs. Shirley Rende r, Acting Dep uty Chairperson, in the Chair) Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, The Colleges Act gives the board the responsibility to set tuition fees and rates and other service charges to be paid by students.

However, in the market-driven training, that is the cost that is arrived at through negotiation of a contract. When that contract is negotiated by the colleges with EIC, for ins tance, or it might be another indus try, for ins tance, that requ ired that market-driven training, then the cost of that would be again negotiated by the contract ; it would not be the same as the tuition fee. Ms.

Fr iesen: Is it possible that a course could be given as tuition based, student based, and the same course, for example, something might be computer training for industry, but essentially the same cou rse being given through contract and through negotiation, but that could be negotiated at a different level?

4699 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA June 24, 19 93 Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, it is, I suppose, possible that might occur, but the cour ses which are provided for market-driven tr aining are usu ally very specialized to the particular client who is requiring the training. The cost of market-driven training is also higher than the cost of tuition, because a student paying tuition is actually rece iving the cost at vi rtually a sub sidized rate,

whereas market-driven training does pay for the full cost of the course. Ms. Frie sen: Presumably, in the future, there is less of a subsidy available to students because of the overall decl ine in su pport for commu nity colleges from the federal government. Mrs. Vodrey: The difference is that in the direct purchase the federal government did unde rwrite more of the total cost of the training. In the indirect, the federal governm ent will not be underwriting the total cost. Those students coul d be entering into any of the programs offered at Red River Commu nity College.

They are not necessarily students in the market-driven. Those people in the market-driven training are different from the direct purchase, which the federal government provides, or the students who are paying tuition. Market-driven amount is arrived at by contract. It is fully cost recoverable. There is also a pr ofit to the college through the market-d riven. The profit to the college is then reinvested in the college within the infrastructure or for the equipment within the college. Ms.

Friesen: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, I know that in the past the colleges have been able to negotiate essentially market-driven training with the federal government that has had that profit basis in it that has enabled them to subsidize other cou rses and programs and, I supp ose, even infrastructure within the colleges as well. My concern is, when you go to a market-driven system, it is the market which will determine it, not the federal government, no sort of abstract federal price whic h may in the past have been more advantageous to the college. When the market dete rmines, the market det ermin es.

I mean, it is-why would we antici pate that the college would be able to negotiate contracts that will essentially enable them to make a profit particularly if, as the mini ste r says, the in tention is to establish a competitive environm ent with private trainers, private vocational schools, for the delivery of that training? Why is the price not going to go down considerably? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chair, there are three types of training we have been talking about. Before there was a direct pur chase.

With the direct purchase, there was a guaranteed block of purc:hase which was a more dependable type of pur chue. The federal government has moved now to indi rec t pur chase . It does requir e negoti;:ltion. However, the community colleges are able to' negotiate for that indirect. In the area of the market-driven training, the colleg 1es prev iously st ill had to go through governm ent to respond to the market-driven request. Now they do not have to.

Now they are more able to be more immediately responsible to the federal government or to busine ss, ind ustry and labour who are requiring the market- driven courses. * (1 61 0) Ms. Fr iesen : Madam Acting Deputy Chair, but my qu estic1n is not to do with flexibility or ability to meet the needs. The issue is price and the market determining the price in an envir onment that the government is increasingly anticip ating will be compe,titive. The purpose of that competition, presumably, is to reduce the cost to those people who require the training! or who desire the training. Mrs.

Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chair, I just want to go over again the market driven versus the direct �md indirect, because I am wondering if the membe,r somehow is mixing up an opportunity on bahalf c>f someone who wanted to take the course. The direct or the indirec t are sponsored by the federal government. They have phased out direct. They are moving to indirect. Ind irect training which a person wishes to take

part in may be any one of the college courses, or it may be a program or a course offered in another ins titution. That was why I was speaking about the fact that the colleges, for the indi rect purchase dollars, will be requir ed to be compe1titive, will be required to make sure that people see the value of the courses they offer for that indi rect training dollar. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) In th1� area of market driven, however, market driven is the development of a tailor-made course which a business, industry, labour group or the

June 24, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4700 federal government may approach the colleges to develop. In terms of that, the cost would be not a regular tuition fee but, rather, again, what the market would bear, because this is a skill that the market has particularly required. So the market-d riven profit, wher e that has accumula ted, would then be put back into the college for the benefit of students in te rms of equipment or infrastructure. But it is separate from the indir ect pu rchases of the federal government, and the tuition fees would be different because of the nature of the programming.

Ms. Friesen: I think what I am focusing on here is the amount of profit that is going to be there for the market-driven contracts that people will be coming forward with ; suppose, for example, a market driven program in computers. You know, there are many trainers around now in computers. There are courses that are offered at community colleges. There will be courses that will be offered perhaps by two or three of the private community colleges. Somebody who wanted that training, or the company or corporation that wanted it, coul d approach any one of !hose. That is the market.

That market is going to competitive. The impetus of that market is going to be to reduce the costs in a variety of ways. So what I am concerned about, in the long ru n, is there going to be any profit, enough profit in those market-driven training courses that can be applied to the community college infrastructure in the way they have in the past? The commu nity colleges have lost a lot from the reduction with the federal government. It has not been made up by the grants of the provincial governmen t, although those, I accept from the minister, have in creased, but it is not making up the gap.

The gap has to be made up, in part, by fees and by market-driven training courses. In the long run, how muc h pr ofit is going to be in those market-driven training courses in a competitive environment, and is it going to be enough to sustain the long-term su pport of the commun ity colleges, because I think that is the public's concern? Mrs. Vodrey: The colleges, now that they fall under governance, are free to seek other sources of revenue apart from the provincial funding and also the tuition, and the sources of revenue that may come to the colleges are the indir ec t purchases.

That is the one where there is some potential competition and where the colleges will want to make the mselves as competitive as possible for those in direct pu rchase dollars. A second area is in the area of market-driven training, and the colleges are in the position to be among the most responsive to developing market-driven training because they have already a great deal of the infrastructure required.

The colleges are saying at this point that they exp ect cer t ainly to be very competitive in market-driven training, that they expect a profit in the range of 15 to 30 percent, and that this profit would then be put back into the colleges for the bene fit of the colleges. So we do expect that the market- driven training, simply by the nature of the equipment available at the colleges and so on, would, in fact, be beneficial to the colleges.

In terms of the students' fees-and I know that this has been the underlying part of the discussion in terms of where will this lead for in dividual student fees-we ll, again, with the profit, that should assist in the area. But also individual student tuition fees are su bsidized and conti nue to be su bsidized through the province. Students at our communi ty colleges pay approximately 8 percent of the actual costs of the particular course.

So the provinces continue to underwrite in the area of tuition fees, but market-driven training is a different type of course for profit and fully cost recoverable. • (1 620) Ms. Friesen : Wh at will the fees be at the commun ity colleges in the coming year, that is, under the budget that we are looking at? How much have they in creased by? Is the figure that the minister just gave me, of 8 percent of actual cost, still the st able relati onship that will be maintained in this coming budget? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the fees for the communi ty colleges for next year will be $825, annual fees for '93-94.

Our fees at our commu nity colleges do remain among the lowest in Canada. They are lower than those in British Colu mbia, Alber ta, Saskatchew an, Ontario and Princ e Edward Island. There are only in Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick some colleges that have lower fees.

4701 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 24, 19 93 Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, that $825 is a per-course fee, that is, in the sense of a course that lasts a year, or a program fee? Mrs. Vodrey: That is the cost for a full-t ime, 10 -month program for an academic year. Ms. Friesen: Has that increased from last year? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, yes, there has been an in crease from last year. The amount is approximately $75. Ms. Fr iesen: Does that $825 approximately equal 8 percent of the actual cost of the course? Mrs. Vod rey: Mr. Deputy Chair, it represents 8.5 percent. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chair, does the mini ster have available today a five-year historical perspective on the college budgets, that is, the amount that a college has in its budget? I am not speaking so much of the provincial transfer, but the combination of transfers and income over the past. I am looking really for a baseline num ber that we can use for the next five years to measure from. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in the Supplemen tary Es timates for Educa ti on, on Sched ul e 6 there are expenditures listed from 19 89-90, Su pport to Community Colleges.

This is the expenditure line comparatively over the last five-year period. The revenue has always been listed separately, and it was listed in the revenue

section of the Estimates until this year. Ms. Fr ies en: The member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) and I would both like to know if the colleges do produce an annual budget, or rather an annual report, an audited report, that has prese nted expenditures and income and revenue. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the college budgets would be presented in the Department of Education Annual Reports and those are available within the library. The colleges will present their first annual report with their budget in October 199 4. Because of the transition, it will be for that one year, a 15 -month accounting. Ms.

Frie sen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, one of the other elements of this we should have in here, I think, is the amount of Governm ent Services supp ort ther e was in the past for commu nity colleges. Now, how has that been managed in the transition, and where will we fin d that number? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, in the 19 92-93 Esti mates, the total amount of Gove rnment Servic ,es transferred to the colleges is a total num bc�r. $2,294,900. Ms. F:rlesen: When the minister says that the grant to the communi ty colleges has increased by 2 percent, it was 2 percent over the grant of last year.

Now, when the minis ter referred to the grant of last year, did that grant include that $2,294,000 of Government Services money? Mrs. Vodrey : Mr. Deputy Chair, the

Schedule 6 within the Estimates had been adjusted to reflect that. Ms. F1rlesen: And so the 2 percent increase, 2.1 percen t increase, was an incr ease of a total num btH that incl uded-it was based upon the grants of last year, the Government Services of last year, added together, 2 percent of that? Mrs. Vodrey: That is correct. Ms. Fr iesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, I wanted to look at reduction in staff in commu nity colleges. Could the minis te•r give us an idea, in each of the commu nity college•s, what the decrease in staff has been, first of all, in positions, and then second of all, in the actual numbers?

I guess I would be interested in both: the diminishment of positions, and then the number of staff who have been laid off. • (1 630) I un derstand there have been a series of layoffs and I wonder if the minister could ensure that the numb ers are up to date as of the end of July , I suppose. We mu st know by now the people who are to be laid off even in July. Mrs. Vo drey: Mr.

Deputy Chair, I have the numb e•r of positions wher e ther e have been reductions across the communi ty colleg es: Assiniboine Community College, 13 .41 positions; KCC , :B.21 positions; Red River Communi ty College•, 35.19 positions-for a total at the three commu nity colleges of 57.29 positions. That is positions, not individuals. Ms. Fr ies en: And the number of individuals would be? Mrs. Vc,drey: Mr. Deputy Chair, there is a total of 42 permanent and 30 term or contract employees who have been affected.

Since the elimination of a position and incu mbent mid-year results in less than a full st aff- year saving-many of the employ•�es affected are part-time employees-the

June 24, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4702 total staff years, positions and the employees affected will not balance. But the member was asking in terms of phases: for Phase 1, at Red River Community College, six permanent and three term; for ACC, six permanent, no term; and, for KCC, one permanent and one term. For Phase II, June 30 and beyond, Red River Commu nity College, 26 permanent, 19 term; for Assiniboine Communi ty College, three permanent, three term; and, for KCC, no permanent, and four term. Ms. Frie sen: Mr.

Deputy Chair, that is a very surprising drop for Red River Community College in the second phase. Can the minister give us an idea of what kinds of positions those are? Are these teaching positions? Supp ort positions? Are they maintenance positions? I am looking for the impact on programs of study. Mrs. Vodrey: We will total up the numbers and look at positions, as well as persons or individuals, and give the total and a breakdown for the member as soon as possible. Mr. Alcock: Just clarify one thing for me.

The 57.29 positions that w ere lost at the colleges, is this as a result of organizational changes that took place as a result of the move to governance, or is this as a result of Bill 22? Mrs. Vodrey: These were not a result of moving to governance . They were a result of the federal reductions, which then changed the programming. Mr. Alcock: What is the impact of Bi11 22 going to be? Mrs. Vodrey: Each of the colleges will be taking 10 days, as are government an d Cr own corporations. Mr. Alcock: Is that all staff at the colleges? Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, it will include all staff. Mr.

Alcock: Has there been any discussion about essential services at the college, or are there sufficient staff in each of the areas to rotate through, so the losses do not impact on service? * (1 640) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, as a result of governance, the colleges are able to choose their days. They will choose their days to provide the least disruption to ins ervice, and that would mean to students, to clients, to any contract obligation. So they will not all be operating on exactly the same 1 0 days but rather the 1 0 days that are the most feasible and efficien t for those colleges. Mr.

Alcock: Let us start with the teaching staff. How are the teaching staff affected by this then? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, for Red River Commun ity College and Assiniboine Community College, they have notified us of the closing on the following days: six Fridays in July and August, July 2, 9, 16 , 23 and 30 and also August 6. They will also close on November 12 . November 12 was a staff development day, not a day in which classes were held, and they will also close three days during the Christmas season, December 29, 30 and 31 .

Keewatin Community College, we have not had a confirmation yet on the days they will be closing. Mr. Alcock: For the six Fridays in July and August, were these days that would normally have offered classes? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, I am informed that those are not regular class days. If there is any summer program taking place in that time, then arrangements will be made to make sure that the integrity of that course is protected. Mr. Alcock: You mean ther e is no summer ins truction

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-89
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 89.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6a60f7db769dcb0851b0050125ce949d4f8f408c

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