VOL. 1 NO. 45 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 23, 1982

November 23, 1982 Tape 2579 EC - 1 The house met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. 1<.sp1:AKcR ( Russelli ) : Cader , p1 case Nil N [RiIPiS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to address the House briefly on collect- ive bargaining in the Public Service. Much has been said in recent months over this governments policy of wage restraint and the implications which that policy has on government's relationship with its employees.

It is this government's belief that the wage restraint programme does represent a fair, reasonable and consistent approach to the bargaining process, and I am pleased to announce today that a number of public service bargaining units have reached agreements on the basis of the wage restraint programme. College of Trades Support Staff - A two year agreement commencing 1 July 1982 was ratified last week by the eighty non-instructional staff at the College of Trades and Technology. The employees are represented by the Newfoundland Association of Public Employees.

Government house - A tentative agreement has now been reached with domestic and maintenance employees at the Lieutenant- Governor's residence, as represented by the Canadian Union of Public Employees. When ratified, this will be the first collective agreement with this group. Harmon corporation - An agreement between the Harmon Corporation in Stephenville and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers has now been ratified and should be signed in the near future.

Newfoundland_and Labrador housing Corporation - The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation has reachee aqreement with the International 5'O

November 23, 1982 Tape 2579 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, representing its employees at Stephenville. The Corporation has also successfully concluded negotiations with respect to the extension of the collective agreement with employees of the former St. John's Housing Authority. Mr. Speaker, I believe that the foregoing demonstrates support for Government's restraint programme and I commend the employees involved for their co-operation.

I am confident that this recognition of the need for wage restraint will continue to grow throughout the public service and will result in the ratification of other outstanding collective agreements in the near future. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, there is not much comment I can make on that inasmuch as the minister did not give me a copy of the statement. All I can say,though, is that it looks like it is some of thn smaller groups that the minister is talking about.

We have no reference to some of the larger groups, particularly the teachers, no comment on how the government is making out in negotiations with these. And all one can say, Mr. Speaker, with the large groups in this Provincu is that the government is making out no better with negotiatLq with these than they are with the federal government. As a matter of fact, it has been evident throughout the Province that indeed this government is not qood at negotiating anywhere, be it with its workers or with the federal government. Mr.

Speaker, I certainly would have liked for the minister to have given me a copy so that f could have seen exactly the groups, but as I say,again, it looks like it is some 51 fl -7

November 23, 1982 Tape 2579 EC - 3 MR. LUSFI: of the smaller groups that we are talking about and not talking about some of the 1rger qroups within the Public Service, for example,

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2580 MJ - 1 MR.T. LUSFI: the teachers and it looks like, Sir, that the government was desperate to announce something, desperate to demonstrate that they were doing something and we have some more of those smaller weaker groups. This is what the minister is talking about, Mr. Speaker. We would like to know what the government is doing in negotiation with some of the large groups in this Province, some of the strong groups, the teachers and other groups. But the minister just wanted to give some indication that the gevernment was doing something and what we have here, Mr.

Speaker, are ust small groups, just nothing at all in comparison to the workers that work within the public Service. MR. C. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR._SPEAKER_(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR._POWER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform the hon. House about the results of the 1982 Spruce Budworm Spray Programme and of the forecast for 1983's budworm infestation. I would also like to bring to the attention of this House a recently detected black spruce mortality which is now considered a delayed after-effect of the spruce budworm infestation.

As the hon. members of this House may recall, last year I had the good fortune to report that the 1982 forecast for spruce budworm infesLation was the lowest since the outbreak began a decade ago. Conseguently, only a small forest protection programme, using both chemical and biological insecticides, was carried out in those infested areas of highest priority, in keeping with the advice given by the 1980 Royal Commission on forest protection. Up to 96,000 hectares of infested forest were planned for protective action subject to I; 11 fl 0

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2580 NJ - 2 veriFication of insect population by pre-spray larval samplings. As it turned out, this sampling revealed that half of the proposed area, primarily in the Eastern and Central regions, could be deleted because of the low population intensity. The bulk of the spraying was in Western Newfoundland. A total of 47,800 hectares were treated: 43, 0 00 hectares with matacil and 4,790 hectares with Bt. Ninety-seven per cent of the matacil area received a double application as prescribed.

The effect of the spray was monitored by sampling budworm larvae and tree branches throughout spray areas. The overall spruce budworm larval mortality generally oxceedod 90 per cent in both matacil and Bt -treated areas and populations were generally lower in the Bt area. Expected defoliation was reduced by 86 per cent in matacil treated areas and by 75 per cent in St areas. Therefore this year's spray programme was considered successful in reducing the expected stress on infested trees within protected areas. I am pleased to announce that there were no emergencies or accidents during the 1982 spray programme.

As a precaution, however, each spray plane had a radio transmitter placed in its tank to help locate the site in case of an emergency dumping. I c

November 23, 1982 Tape 2581 PK - 1 MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, before I get into the 1983 forecast, I would like to point out that while the budworm control programme is a joint effort between the companies and my department, the detection of insects and damage assessment is a co-operative effort between the Canadian Forestry Service and the Department of Forest Resources and Lands. The forecast for 1983 is based on egg mass surveys conducted by the Canadian Forestry Service with support from my department in the form of personnel assigned to the survey and aircraft and helicopter services.

The defoliation mapping is also done by the Canadian Forestry Services under the same agreement. The damage assessment in the past was done by the Canadian Forestry Service but has now been taken over by my depetment. Since the Canadian Forestry Service has the lead role in the egg mass survey and forecasting, the information on the 1983 forecast has already been released to the press and to the public by The Canadian Forestry Service today at a Canadian Institute of Forestry meeting here in St. Johns.

Although theoxtent of moderate to severe defoliation was much greater in 1982 than we had anticipated, the total area affected by spruce budworm was less than forecast, and substantially less than had occurred in 1981, the year when the current control program was initiated. Each member who will receive the statement will see the table shows that the actual infestation for moderate to severe is 41,000 hectares in 1982 and 50,000 of light infestation. Not only was a smaller area defoliated, Mr. Speaker, in 1982 than in 1981, but defoliation was less continuous within affected areas than in the previous year.

There were also two small areas of severe defoliation detected in Labrador, amounting to a total of 660 hectares. Although the spruce budworm infestation was significantly less in 1982 than it had been previously, the ç 1. 1 1

November 23, 1982 Tape 2581 PK - 2 MR. POWER: battle is not yet over. This past Summer a flight of budworm moths was detected to have invaded the Island from the Mainland. It was feared that the invasion would re-kindle the infestation still persisting in the Western region,but the forecast is not as serious as it had been anticipated. Although the infestation has increased in the Western region, the spruce budworrn egg mass survey completed last week revealed that the infestation had decreased considerably throughout the Eastern and Centzral regions of the Island.

Overall, it is forecast that the 1983 moderate to severe defoliation will include 110,000 hectares greater than in 1982,but still substantilly lower than 1981. In Western Newfoundland severe to moderate defoliation is forecast for the following areas: From South Branch to Robinsons; from Stephenville to Georges Lake; on the Port au Port Peninsula; near Fox Island River; from Corner Brook Lake to Old Ma&s Pond and from Northern Flarbour to Humber Canal. Moderate and severe defoliation is also forecast to occur along the Noel Paul River in Central Newfoundland.

Light defoliation is forecast in about 102,000 hectares distributed in isolated patches from the Codroy Valley to Roddickton and East to the Avalon Peninsula. In Labrador, moderate and severe defoliation is forecast to occur in 1983 on approximately 1,000 hectares near Beaver River and light defoliation is expected on 140 hectares neer Goose Point . r i I

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2582 SD - 1 MR. POWER: Since 1977, Mr. Speaker, when tree mortality due to the budworm first became detectable, an annual damage assessment survey has been conducted to determine the area and volume affected by the outbreak. For the past five years this survey has been co-ordinated by the Canadian Forestry Service with the assistance of the Department of Forest Resources and Lands and the forest industry. This year, however, the inventory

section of my department has taken the lead in compiling the damage statistics on a stand-by-stand basis, which is necessary for intensive forest management. The final rcsults of this survey will not be available for several months. In general, mortalit' is expected to remain at approximately last year's level covering an area of 427,000 hectares. This is not surprising considering the significant decline in budworm populations for the past two years.

It is important to keep in mind, however, that the proportion of dead, dying and living volume is changing as a result of past impact; the extent of this change is yet to he determined. It is expected the order of magnitude will he similar to that of last year with dead volume of 16 million to 20 million cubic meters; a dying volume of 3 million cubic meters; and a total volume of stands with morality due to the budworm in the range of 30 to 35 million cubic meters. MR. NEARY: 110w do you get cords? MR. POWER: Divide by two md a ho Ii and yOU get about 12 to 15 million cords total.

I stress that these I i ,fures are tentative, pending the individual stand analyses which will follow which will allow for other factors such as fire, salvage, recovery or the establishment of new stands through natural forest succession. The final results will be made available early in the new year. c' 1 1

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2582 SD - 2 MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I would also like to brinq to the attention of all members in this hen. [louse and to the public of Newfoundland that as an aftermath of the spruce budworm infestation of the last ten years there is a new insect infestation in this Province. During the past two years, following the decline of the spruce budworm infestation, many of the black spruce stands in Central and Eastern Newfoundland had begun to show good recovery.

In fact, it is the resistance of black spruce to direct budworm mortality that had been counted on to minimize the size of forecasted wood supply deficits. This Pall, however, tree mortality and declining vigor was detected in a number of black spruce stands. Ground checks and preliminary surveys indicate that a beetle called the four-eyed spruce bark beetle and a fungus called the shoe-string root rot are present in these stands. Neither pest is new to the forests of Newfoundland.

Both are known as secondary pests which attack weakened trees and hasten their death and in doing so often multiply to outbreak proportions and spread into healthier stands.

November 23, 1982 Tape 2583 NM 1 MR. POWER: Considering the age structure of our forests and the combined stresses from the outbreak of balsam woolly aphid in thel95O's, the hemlock looper outbreak in the 1960s and the past ten years of spruce budworm destruction, this is not surprising. Final volume estimates are not complete, but tree mortality ranginq from 20 per cent to 80 per cent has now been detected on 30,000 hectares and poor tree condition with less mortality is present on another 50,000 hectares.

Thus, a total volume of 3 to 6 million cubic metres, 1.25 million cords to 2.5 million cords,of black spruce is currently at risk and that threat may spread to oUier weakened spruce stands. Information is now being compiled and final figures of mortality and damaqed stands will be made available as soon as they are complete. This unexpected black spruce mortality will have an additional adverse effect on the wood supply deficits already forecast. Mr. Speaker, the information on the 1982 forecast of budworm infestation and on the extent of black spruce mortality was compiled only a few days ago.

The analysis of additional data is continuing. In thenext couple of weeks, I shall consider the information given to my department by our staff and by the Canadian Forestry Service and prepare a course of action for consideration by the government. I have also included, Mr. Speaker, in this statement four maps which show the 1982 defoliation, the projected defoliation for 1983, the areas of block spruce mortality that have just come up with this four- eyed bark beetle and this root rot,which are significant problems in the Province. And for the information of members r, I 1 1 r

November 23, 1982 Tape 2583 NM - 2 MR. POWER: of the House I have a sample of a four-eyed spruce bark beetle, of which there must be billions in the Province, and this thing,which is hardly visible at a few feet in front of you1has destroyed as much as possibly 3 million cords of wood in this Province causing very significant problems. And I might also qive for the information of hon. members, there is no way of combating the four-eyed spruce bark beetle or the root rot problem, It is not something that can be sprayed. All that can he done,I suppose,is a period of very active salvage in those given areas.

But at a time in the Province when we are trying to salvage as much budworm killed fir as we can,it is not going to be possible to also harvest all this spruce that has been killed by all these two new problems. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is no harm to say it never rains but it pours in this Province. The minister in his ministerial statement announced some good news, I suppose,to a certain degree, and some bad news. And if I wanted to be smart alecky, Mr.

Speaker, I suppose I could say that both of these insects came into this Province since the Tories took over. The spruce hudworm started down in South Branch in 1972, the same year that the government changed. But I will not be smart alecky and say that the government is responsible for the spruce budworm but, 1 n

November 23,1982 Tape No. 2584 ah-1 MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it did start in 1972. Now we have a couple of new insects the four-eyed spruce bark beetle- and when I look across at the Government House Leader (Mr.Marshall) I am sure the hon. gentleman did not refer to the House Leader - and the shoe-string root rot. Now you might say, Mr.Speaker, that this administration are responsible for the four-eyed spruce bark beetle and the shoe-string root rot, and it probably started last Thursday with the statement made by the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) in this house. Mr.

Speaker, the first thing that leaped out at me as the hon. gentleman read his Ministerial Statement was the fact that here is an excellent make-work project. The Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.Dinn) the other day announced participation in a federal make-work programme of $3 million with the federal government putting in $27 million. There is $30 million that could be used to salvage some of this timber, the timber that is already damaged by the spruce budworm. A lOt of it is still laying there, it has not been cut,and after five years the spruce budworm damaged timber cannot be used in the paper mills. MR.

DINN: That is one of the recommendations of the Minister of Forestry in a $175 million project. MR.NEARY: Well,]I am glad to hear that. But, Mr. Speaker, after five years the spruce budworm damaged timber cannot be salvaged. It can be salvaged up to five years as I understand it I A lot of that timber is still there. The government mache feeble attempts ç t, 1

November 23,1982 Tape No. 2584 ah-2 MR.NEARY: to salvage some of the timber but in my opinion they have not gone far enough, and there is an excellent make-work programme. The other thing that struck mc about - MR._BIJD; What wouJd you do with it? MR.NEARY: You could either export it or timber that has only been dajiiaged two, three and four years can be used in the paper mills. MR. BAIRD; They can only use so much of it and they are using that aji7eady.. MR. HODDER: You are speaking for Bowaters. MR.NEARY: Well,if the spokesman for Bowaters wants to get up after I am finished he is welcome to do so.

But a lot of the wood could be used to supply poor people and institutions around this Province with firewood for the Winter. But anyway the main thing is , Mr. Speaker, that the wood should be cut, there should be a greater effort at efgestation. The spruce budworm thrives in areas where you have mature and overmature timber. c , 11'

Noventer 23, 1982, Tape 2585, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: The problem is compounded by the fact that the paper companies, and the government did not insist on this, should have been carrying out good forest management, and so the spruce budworm made headway once it hit South Branch. And, Mr. Speaker, this is another point I want to raise with the minister. I am not so sure whether the spruce budworm can come across in the prevailing winds that come across the Gulf into this Province.

I would suspect,more than that, that the spruce budworm was brought in here by the trucks that come in here from the mainland, by the vehicles that come in. MR. POWER: No, they were not. MR. NEARY: They were not? MR. POWER: They would not survive. MR. NEARY: They could not survive on a truck coming across the gulf? In this Province we have car washes at Port aux Rasques and at Arqentia to wash trucks that are going out of Newfoundland because of the canker, because of the potato disease. Why do we not wash the trucks coming in?

Because now, as the minister indicated, these two new insects that he mentioned, we never heard of them in this Province before. Now, did they blow across the Gulf? MR. POWER: No. They have always been here but we have not had a big infestation. MR. NEARY: They have always been here? Well, Mr. Speaker, if that is so, what we need now is to thin out the forest. We need a greater effort on the part of the paper companies to get into areas where we have mature and overmature timber, and we need to concentrate on the areas that need to be protected now against these two insects.

So I would encourage the minister to put a little pressure on the paper companies and use the make-work programmes to employ large numbers of Newfoundlanders in the forests, before the forest industry declines to the extent where it is going to be wiped out altogether. ç' i

November 23, 1982, Tape 2585, Page 2 -- apb MR._NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we are glad to hear that the egg mass surveys that have been done by the Canadian Forestry Srevice, now taken over by the hon. gentleman's department.show that the egg counts are down. I would like to congratulate the Canadian Forest Service for the excellent work that they have done in keeping an eye on the spruce budworm. I hope that the hon. gentleman's department, now that they have taken over the responsibility of doing the inventory on the count, will be equally as efficient as the Canadian Forestry Service. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the rest of this statement is highly technical. We only got it a minute or two before the minister made the statement. We will examine it in more detail and probably have more to say about it later on. But these are the only few brief remarks I would like at the moment, apart from impressing again upon the minister the necessity to consult with the public before any spraying programme is undertaken in 1983. We saw what happened in Millertown, Mr. Speaker, with the 2-4D, and I am sure the minister would not want a repeat of that embarrassing situation. It

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2586 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: So Let us hope that before any spraying Lakes place in future that there will be prior consultation with the people in the areas that have to be sprayed. I know this aprayinq is a very controversial subject anyway and it is a very unpopular thing and I am sure if the minister had his way that he would stay away from it. But the least we can do is to offer the people in these areas a chance to have input into any spray programme that may be undertaken in 1983.

It would appear also, by the way - before I take my seat I have to make this observation - from the figures given the house by the hen, gentleman, that in the Eastern part of the Province the epidemic caused by the spruce budworm seems to be declinine yet we have done no spraying ,which indicates that nature has a way of taking care of itself. Mr.

Speaker, that at least would be the indication that I get, that nature is more responsible for the egg count being down than the spray programme and that is indicated by what has happened in Eastern Newfoundland where the egg count is down substantially according to the hon. minister and there was no spraying. So maybe, Mr. Speaker, in the next year or so with the kind of temperatures that we have, if we have the right kind of climate maybe nature will take care of itself. At least we hope so. But in the meantime, Mr.

Speaker, we are very concerned about these two new insects that the minister told us about today and we hope that no effort will be spared to try to save the black spruce from being wiped out in frhLs Province as a result of these two insects. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Are there any other ministerial statements? OPAL QUESTIONS MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. 1

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2586 MJ - 2 MR. S. NEAR?: Mr. Speaker, the Premier is not in his seat so I will address my question to the Minister f Finance (Dr. J. Collins) . I would like to ask the minister if he is prepared to table all information in (200nectien with the estimates and the negotiations between the minister's department and the Department of Finance in Ottawa in connection 51+22

November 23, 1982 Tape 2587 EC - 1 MR. NEARY; with established programme payments to this Province and equalization payments to this Province. IS the hon. gentleman who has made some wicked statements in this House about these matters, prepared to back up what he told the house and told the people of this Province by tabling all information in connection with the established programme payments to this Province and equalization payments to this Province in this fiscal year? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) is referring to the payments from the federal government that were referred to in the economic statement I gave recently, or do they relate to the transfers from the federal government that were included in the May 29th budget? I just ask that for clarification. MR. NEARY: The May 27th budget. DR. COLLINS: The May 27th budget rather, yes. Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I can answer that just now. I mean, the correspondence between this government and the Government of Canada may well be of a confidential nature.

At least, if it is not of a confidential nature, it may well be something that one would want to make sure that the Government of Canada, specifically the federal Department of Finance, was happy to have tabled. Much of this correspondence is not, I do not think, designed for public exposure, it is between officials. Sometimes the communications are in the form of proposals, nothing fixed or settled, proposals asking for a response, for suggestions, that type of thing. But I will look into it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. 523

November 23, 1982 Tape 2587 EC - 2 MR. SPRAKRR (Russell): The hoe. the Leader of the Opposition. MR,NRARY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. qontleman. I am mainly interested in the working papers involved and the correspondence involving estimates that the minister has spoken about so often in this House since the word on the $61 million deficit was announced to the people of this Province, and I look forward to getting this information here in the Ilouse, Mr. Speaker.

Now, would the minister also undertake - becaOsc of the credibility of the government now being brought into question and because people feel that they cannot trust the government anymore in anything that they tell them, that the believability and the credibility of the government have now been questioned by the people of this Province and they feel that they have been deceived by the Premier in the last election and so forth - would the minister undertake to provide a monthly statement, month by month, say one month following his financial statement in this House, and if the House is not sitting, to make the statement anyway through the media 52

November 23, 1982 Tape 2588 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: on the amount of revenue that is coming into the coffers as a result of the statement made by the minister,and the amount of expenditure, give us a monthly statement on revenue and expenditure so that we can keep an eye on the government? They cannot be trusted, they cannot look after their own affairs. Give us a monthly statement so that the people in Newfoundland and Labrador will know exactly what is happening from month to month. Now I do not know, Mr. Speaker, if it is practical. I think it is.

In these days when we have computers, the latest technology,the minister should be able to get this information from the computers at a moment's notice. Would the minister undertake to provide the House, and,if the house is not sitting, to provide the people of Newfoundland and Labrador with a monthly financial statement on the revenue and expenditure side of the finances of this Province? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Give us a progress report. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) was given I think a very good piece of advice yesterday by the hon. the Premier when he suggested to him that if he wished to get information of use to himse].E and to the public from government he should not preface it by misleading statements or by statements that would lead to lack of credibility in his own questions. For instance,the hon. Leader of the Opposition said that nobody believes this govornment,that the credibility of this government is now zilch and those sorts of remaks.

Well that , you know, is purely a subjective statement on part of the Leader of the Opposition that is perhaps shared by .0001 per cent of the population. I do not know if that is even true, if that is not an exaggeration on my part. But,I mean,clearly 5425

November 23, 1982 Tape 2588 PK - 2 DR._COLLINS: a preface like that is not designed to lead to any credibility in regard to his question and it is certainly not inclined to lead to any enthusiasm on the part of government. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I presume the minister is saying no,the government will refuse to give us a progress report. The government is refusing to give us a monthly statement on revenue and expenditures. Is that what the hon. gentleman is saying? 52b

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2589 - 1 1R. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, this government has * been an open government. It stands by that claim. SOME lION. MEMBERS: Near, boor. DR. COLLINS: It has given a commitment to the people of this Province that it will make whatever information is in the public interest available to the people and in a form that is readily understandable by the people of this Province and at times where it is appropriate to do so. And I can only say that this government stands by that commitmenL. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY Mr. Speaker, you knew, the minister criticizes me for the way I asked the question. Well, if the minister does not like the way I ask questions I feel sorry for him, that is tough. But my view is shared by almost 100 per cent of the people in this Province about the government's believability and their credibility at the present time, Mr. Speaker. Their image has been severely damaged. Now I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if he is tolling us that he refuses to give us a monthly statement?Would the hon. gentleman care to make a statement now - and, Mr.

Speaker, I might point out, by the way, For mbers of the House that what the government has done is taxed everything over five cents, everything over I ye cents you now have to pay a retail sales tax on it1 that is what the government has really done,, and I do not thin1 that has really been brought home to members of the House- now would the minister care to make a statement on this 5421

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2589 SD - 2 MR. MEATY: problem that has arisen in connection with children's clothing vis--vis adult clothing? A large number of people have been in touch with our offices, all the Opposition offices, asking us, 'How do you define children's clothing'? A lot of people have children twelve and hirtoen and Fourteen years of age who wear adult sized footwear and clothes. Now would the hon. qentleman care to make a statement on that matter to try to clear that up1because people are being forced to pay the retail sales tax on clothes that they buy for their children?

Now how can the hen, gentleman justify that? And can the hon. gentleman explain to the satisfaction of the people of this Province how they can avoid paying retail sales tax on clothinq that they are buying for their children? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, in making the statement the other day on behalf of government I indicated that there would now be a removal of the exemption from retail sales tax in regard to adult clothing. Now this is not a unique event in this Province. At a orevious date there was 5428

November 23, 1982, Tape 2590, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS! retail sales tax on adult clothing and then the exemption was brought in. When there was previously retail sales tax collectableon adult clothing, it was done on the basis of sizing. There were certain sizes of clothing which was qenerally considered to be appropriate to children that were tax free, and clothing above those sizes was generally considered to be appropriate for adults and were taxed. And this is what we have looked at bringing in again this time.

In other words, using the experience and the custom that was in place in this Province previously, using the same custom this time around. I might add that in the Western provinces of the country, from Ontario West, with the exception of Alberta, there is tax collected on adult clothing. In the provinces East of Ontario, there is not any tax, such as was the case here until the other day. But in the Provinces, including Ontario, from Ontario West, with the exception of Alberta, there is tax on adult clothing and they use sizing in all provinces.

In two of the provinces they do have some accommodation for the older children and we are trying to get the information from those provinces as to how they do that. It is not an easy matter. It is a difficult matter to administer. It is a difficult matter to avoid undue tax leakage and that type of thing. But we are trying to get the information from the jurisdictions that use a double method, that is a sizing method, and also, somehow or other, using an age method. MR._SPEAKER(Russel]): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is completely 52

November 23, 1982, Tape 2590, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: outrageous. We are astounded and amazed. The minister has implemented this tax and does not have the administrative problems involved in it unravelled yet. And what the hon. gentleman is saying now, S and I just want to repeat this, the hon. gentleman is saying that there is no exemption for children. If you have to buy clothes or footwear - MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER.(Russell) : Order, please: The hon. the President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is making comments on the minister's statement and indicating his

interpretation of it. There is a procedure for that, Mr. Speaker. He is into supplementary questions now, and his remarks should be addressing questions to the minister. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please The Chair, I think, has provided some leeway or

preamble to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. He is into supplementary questions, and I would request him to make his questions brief. MR. NEARY: A supplementary then, Mr. Speaker. Is the hon. minister saying that when people buy clothes or footwear for their children who wear adult sizes, that they have to pay the retail sales tax? Is that what the hen. gentleman is saying? 543U

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2591 NM-i MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am saying to the hon. Leader of the Opposition that there has been brought in the same mechanism that was used in regard to clothinq vis--vis adult and children, that was in place in this Province for many years up until very recently, and which is the common way of dealing with this thing in all provinces which require tax to be paid on adult clothing. There is, as I think any sensible person will realize, there is a problem.

There is a problem that some children are very, very large and that they do have to wear adult clothing. MR. NEARY: Blame it on the children now because they are big. DR. COLLINS: But there has to be a sensibl.e - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! DR. COLLINS: - there has to be a sensible approach taken to it.

We have elected to what most, if not all provinces who require tax to be paid on adult clothing, we have elected to do what they do. however, if there is an additional, mechanism that is workabl.e and can be brought in, we are willing to look at it and we are trying to get some information on possibilities of additional workable mechanisms. S 543

November 23, 1982 Tape 2591 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. MR._NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman now is saying it is the fault of the children for being so big. The hon. gentleman should have had all these problems sorted out before he made his announcement to increase taxes. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please: I request the hen. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) to be more concise with his questions. MR. HODDER: He just started, Mr. Speaker What is wronq with you. Partisanship! Is that your boss? SOME lION.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, did the hoe. gentleman take a look at the procedure used in British Columbia, that when you buy children's clothes you take an affidavit that you are buyinq the clothes or footwear for children and not for adults Is the hon. gentleman looking at that procedure?Afld if so,would the hon. gentleman tell us how quickly it will be implemented? Because people are out now buying clothes and footwear and paying the tax and they are buying it for their children. And that is unfair. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon.

Leader of the Opposition does not seem to realize that our tax mechanisms are under review not just once a year, they are under review almost on a daily basis. We are looking at what other jurisdict:ionn do in regard to tax collections. We sometimes send people from our taxation division to other provinces to see how Lheir system works. We send them to conferences, we send them to seminars. All these 5432

November 23, 1982 Tape 2591 NM - 3 DR. COLLINS: matters are ongoing and we are quite aware of what is going on at the present time in terms of regulations and that type of thing in British Columbia and in other provinces. What we are now trying to get a handle on 51+3i

November 23,1982 Tape No. 2592 ah-1 is the administrative problems,if any, that they are running into in regard to the implementation of the regulations. MR.SPEAKER_(Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr.Speaker, in connection with the statement that I made that everything over five cents is now being taxed by this - MR. ROBERTS: Five cents and up.

MR.NEARY: - five cents and up is being taxed by this administration, would the hon.gentlLeman tell the house if he has had any representation from the hlotel,Motel and Restaurant Association protesting the implementation of this tax and the nightmare that it will cause the Ihotcl,Motel and Restaurant Association? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, it is not true that all items for sale in this Province from five cents and up are eligible for retail sales tax.

And it is not true that I have received a letter saying the changes that were brought in as a result of the economic statement were a nightmare. MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) . Could the minister advice how much revenue he expects this J)vernment to generate because of the tax exemption being taken off the commercial fuel? flow much revenue do you 5434

November 23,1982 Tape No. 2592 ah-2 MR.HODDER: expect to generate? MR.SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR.COLLINS: Over a twelve month period it will come to just over $2.5 million. MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker, ny supplementary to the minister: When the minister made this callous move ,did he consider the extra burden that the tax will have on the already overtaxed small and large businesses in this Province? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR.COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, when the government made this necessary move,they considered all possible implications of it. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the minister: Does the minister consider the plight of the consumer because now in this Province we have so many small businesses and large businesses on the brink of bankruptcy and we are talking about an extra twenty to twenty-five cents per gallon of fuel oil that these businesses will have to use and the small businesses naturally will have to pass it along to the consumer?

Does the minister take into consideration the plight of the consumer? How much will the consumer have to pay extra by the end of this year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Miii in for of linonce DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, as I pointed out in the statement, an anomaly existed in regard to 5!3

November 23,1982 Tape No. 2592 ah-3 DILCOLLINS: heating in commercial establishments. Those establishments which heated or used electricity for cooking,for instance,in commercial establishments they already were subject to a tax I burden, to a retail sales tax burden. There was an anomaly 5 4 3 b

November 23, 1982 Tape No.2593 MJ - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: in that those commercial establishments which elected to use petroleum products were not subject to it,so that this measure more or less spreads Out the burden, makes it equal. MR. G. WARREN, Mr. Speaker, a final suoolementarv. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the member for Tornqat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, could the minister tellus if this tax on commercial fuel, does he expect that this will have an affect on the tourist industry in this Province, this tax on the commercial, fuel? DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Well, I assume the hon. member is asking will it deter tourists from coming to this Province. I would suggest it would be highly unlikely that the imposition of this tax on part of the commercial sector in this Province will deter tourists from coming to this Province. MR. N. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Llellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a quest ion for the Minister of Transportation (Mr. R. Dawe) .

In the Minister of Finance's recent financial statement, in Appendix 1 on page 13, it is indicated that the Department of Transportation plans to save $200,000 on snow clearing this Winter. Would the rninistoi, tel I us hOW t:Iio 1I(partrnenfr plans to save that $200,000? MR.R. DAME: Mr. Speaker. - MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Trrinsportat ion. MR. DAME: Mr. Speaker, the item referred to by the hon. gentleman indicated snow clearing but it actually 5L.3j

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2593 MJ - 2 MR. R.DAWE: refers to the total Winter maintenance budget. There are a niiber of things that we are doing to seek efficiencies in the wcm' we handle our Winter- maintenance programme this year , and one of the thiegs that coums to mind sreciflcally is a change in the hours that are being worked. Instead of the Winter shift being from five o'clock in the morning until two in the afternoon, it will be from six o'clock in the morning until three o'clock in the afternoon.

I am told by the people in my department that there is a significant number of overtime hours that are spent between the hours of two o'clock and three o'clock and this will reduce the number of overtime hours that are spent in that area. We have made some other staff changes as it relates to the second foreman on the Winter maintenance programme.

We will utilize,where possible, existing staff in areas who perhaps would normally be involved in some survey work during the Winter and employ these people as Winter foremen and so reduce the requirement to hire additional foremen or additionalerSenflel to perhaps operate 543

November 23, 1982 Tape 2594 EC - 1 MR. DAWE: the equipment where the operator would move up to second foreman. This will not be possible in all cases but it is certainly one of the things that we have intended to do. We have also reduced an hour of overtime that has b been paid in our depots to the clerks. Instead of coming in at the normal hour now of 8:00 in the morning, they will come in at 9:00. This was an extra hour that has been paid over the past number of years. IL is an extra hour of overtime per day that has been paid to the clerical staff.

By removing that particular hour it will bring them in line with staff in other major areas of the Province like Deer Lake, St. John's, Grand Falls and so on. By the combination of all these things, it is envisaged that we will safe a minimum of $200,000. MR. SIMMS: The answer to all his supplemontaries. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, let me get on to that last point that the minister made. Is the minister now contradicting himself?

Because lost week in the statement that the minister made, the minister was quoted as saying thaL these clerks in the sub-deFts were being paid an hour overtime for lunch and that is where the hour overtime was. Now the minister is saying that the hour overtime was between 8:00 and 9:00 in the morning. So is the minister contradicting the statement that he made last week? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Again, Mr. Speaker, hon. members opposite either failed to listen to the statements that 5L39

November 23, 1982 Tape 2594 EC - 2 MR. DAME: are made in the media or failed to listen to what is being said by mc. AN lION. MEMOND: Hear, hear MD. DAWN: These clerks, Mr. Speaker, a A number of years ago were paid that extra hour overtime per day so that they would be working in the depots the same number of hours as the MOS people, the equipment operators who were working in those depots. They are the only people in the depots who are part of the General Service and their particular agreement cafl s for a seven hour work day.

What I have indicated to the lion, gentleman now and what has always been the case is that they will not be required to be in the office for eight hours but will be required to be in the depot for seven hours, as is the case with their counterparts in other offices of the Department of Transportation. So instead of coming in at 8:00 in the morning, we will remove an hour, one from eight is seven, and they will now come in at 9:00 in the morning. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the minister says that one from eight is seven.

The minister last week said in no uncertain terms - and it was not just members of the Opposition who misinterpreted the minister, if that is what he is saying, because the press reported as well what Li 54U

November 23, 1982 Tape 259 5 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN: the minister said-that the clerks in the sub-depots will no longer be paid for their lunch hour. Now these clerks , Mr. Speaker, came in at eight and worked until five. If they were getting paid for their lunch hour and getting paid an hour overtime between eight and nine, they were working nine hours a day and not seven or eight as the minister is saying. So would the minister clarify? Are they also not getting paid for lunch, plus that one hour overtime between eight and nine? There are two hours been taken from them. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon.

Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I just got- to say that this line of questioning is too silly at this point in time to respond to. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. SIMMS: A good answer. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: I think the minister is too silly to know the answer is the proper way to access it, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, getting back to the other question that I asked the minister earlier, he says that they are going to save $200,000 by cutting out some overtime.

Is the minister indicating that there will be two shifts this Winter rather than the one shift that the minister had in place for a lot of the areas of this I'rovince last year ? Will there be two shifts this year? MR.SPEAKER: The lion. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: If the hon. member would like for me to qualify, Mr. Speaker, what I said initially, I said that staff have identified to me as part of an ongoing evaluation a 544

November 23, 1982 Tape 2595 PK - 2 MR. DAWE: of how the department can function a little more efficiently,have identified that the hour between two o'clock and three o'clock in the day is a point in time when there was a considerable amount of overtime paid to the S operators who were doing the snow clearing programme.

What we have done is changed the hours of works-or the proposed hours of work for this coming Winter season so that,instead of working from five in the morninq until two,employees will come to work , this is a normal kind of a day, unless they are called out to do other snow clearing duties before that hour, but normally they will come to work at six and now go home at three.

And it is suggested to me,and I have no reason to doubt it because the officials in my department are very, very efficient and,going on their advice,they tell me that this is an hour in the day that will not require as much overtime; as a matter of fact, now it will not require any. But by reducing that particular hour from an overtime point of view we will save a substantial amount of money. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the minister after last Winter's experience has now made at least one change.

November 23, 1982, Tape 2596, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAN: As the minister knows, last year where an operators regular cheque was $800, he was bringing home the $800 plus $1200 in overtime. That was 2.5 menus salaries actually. So is the minister saying that this year $200,000 will, not only be saved by not giving the same man two and a half tines his regular salary, but that will be spread over two householders? MR. SPEAKER(Rusel1) : The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. SIMNS: This is going to be good. MR. DAWE: Yes. I must say it was very difficult to pick a question out of it.

What I would suggest is the hon. member, if he had some specifics, is referring to figures there of two and a half times an individuals salary. I would like to inform this hon. House that last year our salary estimates for the year were not exceeded. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Transportation was well within its budget limits for salary expenditures, and that included payments under regular and overtime.

So I would be very interested to know the specifics of what the hon. member was referring to. would suggest They are not factual, and I would be interested in having him present them to me. The indication is that we did not go two and a half times over salary estimates. As a matter of fact , we were richt: on I me , or a little ti. I under line. SOME HON. MEMBERS: I'Jear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Good answer. Good answer. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Soeaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, last year, in 544Ei

November 23, 1982, Tape 2596, Page 2 -- apb MR. CALLAN: last year's budget, the Minister of Transportation(Mr. Dawe) estimated that there would be $16,803,900 spent on snow and ice removal, or S control. Actual figures spent last Winter were $19,471,000, mother words, over $2.5 million more. Now, of that $2.5 million that was overspent, the minister is planning on saving $200,000. Is the minister going to implement any other measures to save at least $2 million of that other $2.5 million? MR._SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, I really have difficulty finding a question in some of the things that the hon. member is asking, or, in fact, whether there is a question there. MR. SIM11S: He does not know what he is saying. MR. DAWE: But I will try. The member from the other side is quoting figures of $2.5 million over the estimates for last year as a supplementary question, when he asked about overtime paid out of the salary estimates.

If the hon. member would like to check back and find out that because of the unusual Winter, the extra funding for snow cleaning last year was spent for equipment rentals and had absolutely no bearing on salary overtime. MR. SPEAKER: Order, plcase The time for the Question Period has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR._MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Fishenies(Mr. Morgan) I table the balance sheet of the Fisheries Loan Board 5444

November 23, 1982 Tape 2597 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: as of March 31st., 1981 with the Auditor General's Report attached. NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Remove Anomalies And Errors In The Statute Law." ORDER OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Order 48, Bill No. 61. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Promote Public Safety In the Transportation Of Dangerous Goods." MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, it is with a great deal of pleasure that I introduce this particular piece of legislation. I am sure that hon. members on both sides of the House will be very willinq to support this piece of legislation for a number of reasons. MR. SIMMS: like what? MR. DAWE: A number of months ago non, members will remember,as well as everyone in this Province and I guess right across the country, the terrible derailment that occurred in Mississauqa1 Ontario and the subsequent events from that point in time.

As a result of that particular accidentwhich really was not as dramatic as a number of other major spills that have occurred when particularly dangerous goods and substances have been transported, it is not the fact of the accident itself but it is the amazing way in which a great number of people, 514/45

November 23, 1982 Tape 2597 NM - 2 MR. DAWE: some 250,000 people were evacuated froir the immediate area S Also as a result of that particular jn'idctit L11c then Minintor of Transportation, the hon. Don Mazankowski, a good Tory by the way, Mr. Speaker - MR. SIMMS: Hoar, hear: A good Tory. Excellent. MR.

DAWE: - started a royal commission enquiry into that particular incident, not only to look at the aspects and the methods that could be put in place to prevent such an accident from reoccurring, but also to put in place and to look at possible ways that if such an accident should happen how it could be best handled in the best public interest. That commission went on for a number of months. Unfortunately there was a critical change in Ottawa, but 5L.4b

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2598 SD - 1 MR. DAME: Fortunately the good fortune of that inquiry and the actioji taken by Don Mazankowski carried on and the Federal Government in Ottawa in November 1980 introduced a bill into the House of Commons that dealt with the transportation of dangerous goods in this country. MR. SIMMS: Right on. MR. DAME: There have been a number of meetings between myself and counterparts right across the country, Mr.

Speaker, and with the federal Department of Transport dealing with this particularly important matter, and it was decided that each province would introduce in its own Legislature a piece of complimentary legislation which would go hand in hand with the federal legislation dealing with the transportation of dangerous goods. This has gone ahead, Mr. Speaker, already in the provinces of Alberta, Nova Scotia, Ontario and Prince Edward Island. It is necessary now to have this particular bill, a similar bill, a like bill, passed in all the other provinces.

What we will specifically deal with in Newfoundland is transportation of dangerous goods as it relates to travel on our highways. There is an ongoing dialogue and good co-operation, Mr. Speaker, between the federal government and the various provincial departments of transportation as it relates to this particular bill - exceptional co-operation, I might add. MR. SISIMS: But only as it relates to this particular bill. MR. DAME: There are a number of things that are ongoing, training programmes that have to be put in place. As a result of this bill, Mr.

Speaker, when it is passed there will be a training session for the inspectors, who will have to be employed from the r'rovinces point of 4 544/

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2598 SD - 2 MR. DAME: view. There will be a process of public information not only for truckers and for the ocople who will actually be moving the goods1 but there will iso, of necessity, be a series of public information ::eminars and procedures to address the problems associated with what do the public do if in fact there is a particularly dangerous accident that would involve public health and safety. All of these things will be taken care of.

Each of the provinces have not promulgated regulations because they are waiting for the federal government1 because of the magnitude and the intricacies of the particular types of 'cods that will be affected by this particular bill, the provinces and the federal government will be promulqaLing these regulations together jointly and co-operativelv.Arid as soon as they have been put in place the other things that involve training and so on will also be taken care of over the next number of months. Mr.

Speaker, this particular bill is very beneficial not only to this Province but also to the rest of the country and I look forward to hearing the support of hon. members who may wish to speak on it. SOME lION. MEMBERS: hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. member for Tornqat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.Spaker, when this government brings anything positive,in particular towards safet", we on this side are only too glad to join with the irinister in supporting such a bill. 4

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2599 NJ - 1 MR. G. WARREN: However, Mr. Speaker, I wouid like to ask the minister i question or two concerning this bill. Does it have to do with - I would think it does - the transportation of petroleum products such as gasoline, a fuel oil and things like this? The reason I am asking the minister is a truck driver with one of the oil companies in St. John' s cal led up the oil ice no L Ion tong 3(10 and he said that his company have told him that as ionq as he is driving a truck he is not supposed to moke and he must keep a fire extinguisher in the cab of the truck.

Will this bill make it compulsory for all oil companies to follow this same procedure that this particular company is enforcing on itq employees,or is it just a company decision? I am just wondering if this bill will cover those necessary precautions. As far as I am concerned it may even stop individuals from smokinj.

I am just wondering if, for example, the Texaco Company, which transfers gasoline or stove oil from Long Pond-Manuels from the Gulf otorage tanks to various different places throughout the Province, to the Dunn Peninsula, Bonavista Peninsula, the Clarenville area( and one individual driver is probably driving a truck for two or three hours without a break sort of thing - I do not sinoke personally but most people smoke - MR. W. CALLAN: I smoke enough for the two of us. MR. WARREN: My colleague is just putting words in my mouth now.

Most peop1e that do smoke find it verY difficult to go two hours driving without smoking, will this be a difficult rule to enforce? MR. CALLAN: Especially in the Winter when the roads are not nlouqhcd due to the incompetence of the minister. 5 Li 4 9

November 23, 1982 NP. B. WARREN: shadow for Transportation. SOME lION. MEMBERS: MR. WARREN: quiet for a few minutes? Tape No. 2599 MJ - 2 See, my colleague is the If the truck breaks down for - Oh, oh! Will my hon. colleagues be SOME lION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEA ER (Aylward): Order, please! Order! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, if this truck runs into mechanical difficulties from ooint A to noint S does its driver in ten below zero have to go 352.5 feet from the truck in order to have a smoke? what are the precautions? I have not had a chance really to qo down throucih the bill and that. 5450

November 23, 1982 Tape 2600 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: Do the rules and regulations have to be followed very stringently or is it just another bill that will come into place and it will, be broken, the p same way, by the way, as the seat belt legislation is broken today? They did a survey on the seat belt legis- lation and only 37 per cent of Newfoundlandcrs are following the regulations. So will this be another safety regulation that the minister of the department will not put into effect? Because the minister of the department has not put the seat belt regulation into effect as it concerns the safety of this Province.

Mr. Speaker, I want to just throw out these couple of questions and I will be only too glad to ask some more as we go through the bill. MR. SPEAKER (fd)j, The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. 1-TISCOCK: I just want to speak very briefly on it, Mr. Speaker. As the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) said, any form of legislation that is brought in with recard to the safety of our communities and our cities, this side, as well as all people in the Province, are more than concerned in supporting iL. But it is always the way that we close the door after the horse is gone.

I would like to bring up questionon several things here. What about the movement of chemicals coming into the Province? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) you second that. MR. HISCOCK: Yes, that will be recorded and we will be monitoring that. The city of St. John's, for example, will also he bringing in regulations to make sure that chemicals will be moved through the city only in the night. Here is the Minister of Transportation 551

November 23, 1982 rape 2600 EC - 2 MR. HISCOCK: (Mr. Dawe) saying that nobody should be on the highways in the night at 3:00, 4:00 and 5:00 in the morning when people are going to work. If we are going to be moving these chemicals, particularly in the Winter, dangerous chemicals, and it is the most dangerous time, then obviously, we need the highways looked after by way of safety.

There is no sense in bringing in legislation and saying we want to identify the truck that it has explosive chemicals on it or other danqerous chemicals,and we are not going to be able to look after the plowing and salting of the streets until 5:00 or 6:00 in the morninq. The City of St. John's is recommending that they only move in the night and early hours of the morning, and I would assume that the federal government and the other provinces will be saying the same thing. So I have a question to ask the minister about that. What about moving chemicals in the Winter and Spring and Fall?

Another question I want to ask the minister - we are going to be taking account, I would assume, of the movement of these chemicals and other dangerous fuels that are going through this Province. What about the chemicals that are dumped - not in great quantitic - buL what about after they are used? What about the PCBs that were being dumped by industrial companies? What about the remnining amounts of sprays left over from the spray programmes?

Do we have, as Ontario is still trying to get and still trying to fight fur, and also in the States, do we have an area in this 'rovince designated as a dumping site for dangerous chemicals, in conjunction with the Minister of Environment and the Iuiniser of unicipal Affairs? Of course, 5452

November 23, 1982 Tape 2601 P1K 1 MR. HISCOCK: the answer is no, it is being dumped all over the place. And there are no regulations to it.

So what is the sense of bringing in regulations to say F that we want to know whore the trucks are going with huge amounts, but not i!ollowing it up by saying, okay, there is half a gallon here left over, there are a few ounces left in those tins, and then take the tins and dump them out in Robin Hood Bay or dump them in Conception Bay dump or dump them in Gander and only find out later, as the States is binding out and Canada1 that through the break down over time and through erosion that it is getting into the water supplies of some of these towns in the States and in other parts of Canada.

So if we are going to take the lead from the accident in Mississaucja, are we also going to take the lead in trying to regulate not only the transportation but also the dumping? The dumping also has to come under the minister because it is transported over the highways and going into these dumps. Is EPCO having any chemical dumping? Is Bowaters? Is Abitibi' Price? Is bC? Is Long Harbour? I mentioned before some of the other companies that arc around town, Mr. Speaker. The minister does not think that it is particularly a serious matter, that it may not be in any large quantity.

But it is being dumped and we are finding out that the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) announced today there is another outbreak of insects in the Province that will involve more chemicals and more spray. We brought up in this House before about the cadmium in limestone getting into agricultural land. We need a follow 1 . There are no follow-ups whatsoever, Mr. Sicaker, We bring in cosmetic legislation of $150,000 for the Art Council . When the Muminers Troupe gets a little bit critical of this administration,and other potential criticals., why D 4 i

November 23, 1982 Tape 2601 PK - 2 MR. HISCOCK: do they do? They withdraw the grant from the Wummers Troupe. With regards to the cosmetics of the Status of Women, $150,000 toward the Status of Women, but when they want daycare, and when they want other follow-ups, wtat does this government do? Nothing with regard to other jurts of legislation. So here we are seeing another niotherhood issue being brought into this House, and of couse everybody in this I'rovince supports it, but is it going to have any teeth? Are we going to find out what happens after the chemicals are brought to their destinations?

Once they are brought in and stored in the companies' yards, and once they have gone through the city and the Province with regard to transportation and safety, once they have arrived at the final distinat bn are we going to do the same thing as we did with the young men on the oil rigs? Put them out on the oil rigs and shout to the roof tops of our hiring policy and then forget about them. 4 I 5454

November 23,1982 Tape No. 2602 ah-1 MR. HISCOCK: Is that what we are going to do, Mr. Speaker, with reqard to this legislation? Move it all over the Province and once it arrives at the destination say, Okay, as Minister of Transportation I did my job , now it is up to the Ministers of t'n Environment and Municipal Affairs to do their jobs. And is there going to be any co-ordination? T3ecause I do not think that the danger is, Mr.Speakor, only with the transportation,even though that is a danger. The danger is what do we do with the waste of these chemicals that will probably get in our water supplies?

Will we have to remove housing because of the dangerous chemicals that are underneath and used for infill?And we know in this city we use mull a [air amount. You can look all over this city,whether it is in Mundy Pond, whether it is in Blackhead, Shea Heights, whether it is out towards the Battery, whether it is in Long Pond, whether it is in Torbay, there is a lot of infil1ing And infilling is done from industrial sites that are expanding or are moving or cleaning out areas that need expansion.

And I caution the minister, when he gets up,and hope that he will, bring in existing legislation with this to make sure that the transportation of used chemicals is regulated more and that we have some way of finding that this is not only transported after it is used but it is stored in a safe place and that it will not drain into voter supplies and inhibit tho environment of this Province. Thank you, Mr.Spcaker. t MR.SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. Leader of-the Opposition. 5155

November 23,1982 Tape No. 2602 ah-2 t4R.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. gcntleman does not expect to get a quick passage of this piece of leqislation. T know the hon. gentleman is over there anxiously waitinq to get up to conclude second reading of the bill but, Mr. Speaker, it is too important a matter just to let slide through. 1R. DAWE: I certainly would not want it to slide through. MR.NEAIY: I commend my colleagues on either side of me for their concern in this matter. It is something that everybody should be concerned about, safety on our highways.

One aspect of the bill that I do not understand,and perhaps the minister can explain it to ma when he winds up the second reading of it, has to do with permits. The bill is not clear. Does it mean now that every company, every business, every industry that is transporting dangerous goods have to apply to the minister for a permit to transport these goods?

For instance, an oil company transporting jet fuel, does that oil company- or it may not be an oil company, it could be an agent - have to make application to the minister at the beginning of the year and then the application will remain in ci foct [or twelve months or will it be done on a fiscal year or just what procedure wi] 1 they have to follow in order to get a permit? Can it be a twelve month permit? Will they have to apply every time they are going to transport dangerous goods and products over our highways? 5+5b a

November 23, 1982, Tape 2603, Page 1 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: Will the R.C.M.P. know they are transporting it over the highways? MR. NEARY: That is right, Mr. Speaker. How will the information be communicated to the law enforcement officers? That is very important, that they be aware that dangerous goods will be transported, the date, the hour and so forth and so on. It seems to me that what the minister is doing now, he is parrotting, he is following the good example set by the City of St. John's. The City of St.

John's were the first to move in the direction of protecting people on the streets and highways against dangor'us goods. The city council already announced that they are putting regulations in place to protect people against accidents. And it seems to me that what the minister is doing is following the good example set by the city council. And I commend the City of St. Johns for taking the initiative in this matter. Mr. Speaker, the minister is parrotting now what Mayor Murphy and the members of the city council have already said. But it is a matter of great concern, Mr.

Speaker, to a lot of people in this Province, the way that our highways have gotten out of control with regard the transportation of dangerous goods and products. Every Sunday morning, for example, I notice that going up Portugal Cove Road are huge tankers. And not only Sunday morning, but Saturday night, too, and at times when traffic is heavy on the Portugal Cove Road, you see these huge tankers headed toward St. John's Airport with jet fuel. It is amazing, Mr. Speaker, that an accident has not occurred long ago; a lineup of traffic a mile or a mile and a half long. 5(57

November 23, 1982, Tape 2603, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: My hon. friend probably, who has a residence down in Portugal Cove, has encountered f. 1 know I have on numerous occasions. I found myself rijht directly, smack behind one of those huge tankers. It could very easily slip its brakes, have mechanical failure, and the next thing you know you have a catastrophe on the highway. My own personal view is that these tankers and the transporting of dangerous products should not be allowed on the highways during the hours that people are commuting hack and forth to work.

And they should not be allowed on the highways on holidays and weekends when people are out for a drive with their families, and especially on Sundays and on holidays when there are large numbers of people using the Trans-Canada Highway, especially, and a lot of a 515b

November 23, 1982 Tape 2604 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: the by-roads going out into the country. But I believe that the minister should ban the movement of commercial vehicles on Sundays. They have it in other provinces of Canada. The argument that I heard before - I am not sure if it was from this minister or his predecessor - was that it might have a tendency to increase the cost of living.

I say to that, 'Balderdash, hogwash Out in the minister's own district you have a danger situation, from Port aux Basques right up to Corner Brook, where you are risking your life going on the Trans-Canada tliqhway, especially in the Wintertime, and now the minister is going to mako it ten times worse. The moct dangerous time on the highway is at 5:00 in the morning.

Before you get the first blast of sun in the morning you get that black ice on the highway, and the minister is going to cut out maintcnunce of the highway at 5:00 in the morning, is not cjoinq to start until 6:00 in the morning their major maintenance on the highways, so the hon. gentleman to'd us. MR. DANE: If necessary, the night fore- man will decide whether it is necessary to be out at 4:00 A.W. or 3:00 A.M. MR. NEARY: I see, if it is necessary. Mr. Speaker, by the time the minister's officials determine whether it is necessary or not, you could have a major accident out there on the Trans-Canada Ificjhway.

MR. DAWE: They are not going to be on the road if there is no need for them to be there. MR. NEARY: Vho is not joinq o be on the road? MR. DAJE: If there is a need for bhem, they will be there. MR. NEARY: Mr. Spcaker, the most dangerous time on the Trans-Canada Highway is coming on dark, 5/59

November 23, 1982 tape 2604 EC - 2 MR._NEARY: at dusk, coming on dark, when you get that block ice forming on the highway. It may have been mild all day, the highway is clean and you get this black ice on the highway and you get the same thinq in early morning. Mi.DAWE: Early in the year and late in the Spring. MR. NEARY: Not early in the year and late in the Sprinj, year round.

I went bock and forth over the Trans-Canada highway through the minister's own district twenty-two times last Winter and I can guarantee you that I went down there times when I knew I was risking my life, especially with these big tractor trailers coming at you, coming off the ferry and barrelling up the highway. The hon. gentleman knows that. I presume he is aware of it, Mr. Speaker, having lived in the area. It is a very dangerous situation, very dangerous and something that should be looked at very carefully. You are risking your life gettincj on that Trans-Canada highway, especially in the Wintertime.

The minister in his wisdom put up a couple of signs this year down near McDougals where the wind used to blow the trains over and still does, I suppose, blow the 5460 I

November 23, 1982 Tape 2605 NM 1 MR. NEARY: trains off the track, and blow their tractor trailers bottom up, loaded. I went down there one day and saw a tractor trailer bottom up with a load of fruit coming up McDougal's, not too far from the boundary of the hon. gentleman's - MR. DJWE: Just outside the boundary. Yes. MR. NEARY: - the boundary of the hon. qentloman's - where the boundary divides my district from the hon. qcntdeman's district. I have not gone down there,I suppose, in the Wintertime, when I have not seen at least one, if not more, tractor trailers bottom up, and some of them are loaded. Mr.

Speaker, the wind down there you would not believe, down near McDouqal's and near thn Starlite Motel, it is absolutely wicked. I parked one night in front of the Starlite Motel, I had to stop because of the hiqh wind,and I parked the car facing the motel. And when the wind died down several hours laterI came back to get aboard the car, the car was turned around facinq the Trans Canada Highway. The wind had lifted the car up and turned it riqht around. MR. BAIRD: You were in the lounqe, you were not Sure. MR.

NEARY: I had the pleasure of spending some few hours there a couple of Winters ago with the qDnticman who won the Juno award in Newfoundland, Eddie Eastman, and his qood wife, prior to his winning the award. So there arc some advan taqes to get Li nq s f raiided , Mr. .E peake r , but Lh L does not a ways happen . 561

November 23, 1982 Tape 2605 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: But the fact of the matter is that I really think the minister should look at banning the movement of large commercial vehicles, tractor trailers, ind commercial vehicles over our highways on Sundays, and on holidays, more especially the vehicles that are carrying explosives and jet fuel, and all the other dangerous products. I think it should be stopped altogether. And that in what T would like to hear the minister address himself to when he closes the debate.

I would also like to ask the hon. gentleman whet other products are moving over our highway that we do not know aboutthat are dangerous. Perhapa the hon. gentleman can tell us. I know dynamite, gasoline - MR. DAWE; Amonia. MR. NEARY: Amonia? Do we have amonia going over the highway? Demo transported where, across the Gulf? AN lION. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is a new one. We have amonia which is a very dangerous substance indeed. Perhaps the minister can tell us what other products of a dangerous nature are moving over the highway.

And would the hon. qentleman tell is what checks are goinq to be made on the driverS And what are the qualifications of drivers who operate those vehicles? 1Jili there be any criteria laid down, 562

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2606 SD - 1 MR. NEAR": or standards for drivers of those vehicles? Will they be allowed to pick up hitch-hikurs Will they be allowed to carry passengers? And this sort of information, I think, is what the hon. gentleman should give the House. But, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman should tell us whether or not there will be special permits every time somebody wants to move a load of dynanii te I presume that will involve a special permit. And will there be permits of long duration? Can these companies make an application to get a Permit for twelve months, For six months?

Then who will check on them once they get their permits? And who will check the equipment to see if it is up to standard? These are all very important points, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to hoar the hon. gentleman comment on them. And having said that I think my other two colleagues indicated that we will be supporting the bill and we commend the city council for taking the initiative and lighting a fire under the minister and getting him to bring similar leqislation into this hon. House. MR.SPEAKER (Aylward) : If the hon. mini sLor now speaks he will close debate. The hon.

Minister Of r1ransI)ortation MR.DAWE: Mr. Sooaker, I thank hon. gentlemen opposite for their comments. Perhaps in some instances the hon. gentlemen did not listen to what :r had said about the complimentary nature of this particular piece of legislation and how discussions had been going on snice 1.980, There have been meetings between federal and provincial officLala, meetings between federal and provincial ministers of transport and transportation across the country as it relates to this particular problem. You would think in

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2606 SD - 2 MR. DANE: listcninq to gentlemen opposite, hat there were, it present / no regulations or no restrictions in pinco as it relates to the transportation or, in fact, tii' siinorvision of the transportation of dangerous goods and their subsequent either removal, disposal or use of. And that, Mr. Speaker, is not true. There are very definite and strong requlations in this Province under the department of my colleague the Minister of Environment (Mr. Andrews) as it relates to the hancllinq and use and disposal of dan (10 r OU S 5 L4 5 4

November 23, 1982 i'upo No. 2607 Mi - MR. R. DAWE: and caustic substances,us they relate to public health and 4 safety. And these regulat ions, Mr. Speaker, are the host of any regulations in North America. We have some of the best ii not the best in total , ccvi ronmeutiil so [oguards of any province r any sLate in North America tOd We arc voly prokid of that, Mr. Speaker. New legislation brought in by this particular government as it relates to onvlironrncnta.l assessment and other important regulations of air emission. The hon. gent] eman refer red to ERCO some of the so logut rds that have been brought i n by t-h i s

part ice I or gave resent have ensured that the problems created by FRCO, by a former, formc r administr.tions, are not repeated again in the future. We are very proud of those requl ations and the hon. gentleman should be aware that these are in place and they are listened to. The hon. the member for Eagle River (Mr. Ihiscock) refers to the disposal of goods and danqcrous items, where the dumps are and so on.

And hon. members shou 1(1 be aware that this Province was foremost in its reguest to the federal governiteiti , within whoit a cuber of d iscilasions had been he] ( by a number of provinces to ilenti Fy within Canada a number of acceptable disposal Sitos for dangerous goods, arid this, Mr. Speaker, has not been done yet. And this is not any real strong en ticism, I suppose, oF the ledoral government, albeit that it was in their hail park, i F you will, to identity some of these sites, hut it is, Mr.

Speaker, an indica t ion that the p rob I (,in of the iii sposi I , which i an entirely di F brent issue, isa very cough ox and a v y - difficult thing to decide upon. The United SLaLv has a number of problems of its own in identifvinci sitca where the PCBs could be destroyed and proper] y di sposed of and there re 1 neither of t hinie that ire htponi ii] 1W which ity, in tact real iso a site wi l:Itin Cantia intl perhaps two whet sortie 5465

November 23, 1 982 Tape No. 2607 MJ - 2 MU.R. DAWN: of these particularly • (lon(JCrr(iUS ijioid riiel items that have a very prolcnged le 010) lii I I I I and so on can be disposed of safely. The hen, the member for Tornqat Mounitrimmo (Mi Nai i ,, w ii)Orre(l P1) thingS as whether an individti.il w' oil ml have to travel 100 feeL away from his veh j (2 I e in iircier lo ha V a srwike. F would suggest to the hon. (Jont I )2rnflfl that he WOO d peuhaps check out his [acts a lift le more careful ly, not (mist in this area, because there are regulations presently in place.

The Public Utilities Board in Phi s part-iculor Provi lice regu fates the type of vehicle that i company ciii be lccncccd for and the type of product that they can can, And it. is a very restrict lye I teemice in some areas for the k i nds of products that a person can now carry , and the Public Utilities board is the regulating agency within this Province that controls the companies that are porno tfed to curry certu in kinds of substances and 110 a riot for of fact , anyt lii ng , ti girt

November 23, 1982 Tape 2608 PK - 1 MR.DAME: from I ish to partiuularly caustic substances. And they are very eatable of rojuiat.in from a permit point e vi eW,und see tug LhoL Lhis is taken care 1 of. The Department of the Environment is responsible then for a number of other areas as IL tabLes to those particular goods, If there .15 a spi 11 there tire procedures in place which roco;n i ze other (iepart:m(nLu, It race nt /ea (lie responstbt ] i ty of the Emergency Measures Organization, responsible to the Department of Justice SOME_HON. MEMBERS: hear, hcer MR. DAWE: - and SO (in.

There a ri procedures in place now to address a number of the things that the hon. member referred to. I would supjest as well that you check youi [acts as IL rule Us to the use of Sc,) bolts in this Province. Not only did this Province prior Lu the legislation being introduced in a survey i ndcpunduii 3 y done by the RCMP indicc La that the residents of New oundlend and Labrador wanted sea belt legislation to come .iii,about 93 per cent it was the highest in Canada. People su.i d we need seat belt legislation, plcase bring it in. fh s is whit Lhe survey I ndJ cated.

And thtit particular piece ot lull slit. ion was passed unanimously in this House. And the present use of seat belts is not as low as 37 per cent as the hen. member indicated, Mr. Speaker, monthly surveys indicate that as of the 31 of October of this year scat belt use in this Province is 71.9 per cent, the highest in Canada. MR. RI DFOUT: Shot down again. MR. WARREN: The people of CJ.arenyil)e must tell lies then. MR. DAME: Well where the hon. gentleman gets his information Ii certai nly am not aware of, Mr. Speaker. MR. WARREN: from a radio broadcast in Ciarenvil]. MR.

DAME: Well I would nuggest to the hon. gentleman there are other sources The Deportment of Transportation has an employee Mr. George Jerrett, who d.i ci an 5 1 L 51

November 23, 1982 Tape 2608 PM - 2 MR. DJWE: excellent job of promotinq this particular SOME lION._MEHI3ERS: Hear, hoar: N1R.DAWE: -piece of information, if you will, i.n explaining the roqulations and legislation to the school :hildren and a number of other groups around the Province. MR. SIMMS! Yes. He was out my way. He was well received. MR. DIME: And if the hon. gentleman wanted to get accurate and informed information as it relates to seatbelt legislotlon,i suggest that he call him, and not rely on a radio announcer in Clorenville or anywhere else in the Province, for accurate information. MR.

RTDEOUT tie just wants negative statistics, that is all he wants. They do not check it Out SOC. MR. BAIRD: Inside information, not accurate. MR. RIDEOUT lust wants negative statistics. MR. WARREN: 37 per cent of the people. 5456

November 23, 1982, Tape 2609, Page 1 -- apb informatn i. BAR: Do nof COWUSC the facts, please. MR._DAME: Obviously, Mr. Speaker, as well the member for Eagle River(Mr. Iliscock) does not listen to what happens in this House, but that does not particularly surprise me. AN HON. MEMBER: 110w is that? MR.

DAWE: Well, the hon. member went on to, when he indicated that he did not know what was happening as it relates to the disposal of dangerous goods,or, in fact, that he knew what this particular bill was about, to talk about spray programmes, and he went on to say that now that we have the four-eyed bark beetle in place, we are going to do more spray programmes, when the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr.

Power) in his statement indicated that because of the particular nature of this little pesty beast it is not particularly relevant, or it is not very beneficial to spray the creature because you cannot got the spray at them. So he indicated that there would not be a spray programme associated with this particular infestation of the forests in the Province. So obviousl.y the member did not listen to what my colleague, the Minister for Forest Resources and Lands,had to say about that.

And it just goes to show that he, again, does not understand what is going on in this House, or, in fact, what is going on outside of it. The member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) my neighbouring politician, separated by that wind tunnel in McDougals Gulch, and that is becoming windier since the hon. member deserted Bell Island and went to LaPoile, however, made some very good points. I would like to indicate to the hon. member, apart from the facf -- and I would also like to 5L59

November 23, 1982, Tape 2609, Page 2 -- apb MR. DAWE: go on record as complimenting the City of St. John's for their initiative in taking some action as it relates to the transportation of dangerous 0 joods in their particular community. I think other communities could take a lead in that. But to suggest that 4 that is the reason why this particular piece of legislation is being brought in is not really true, Mr. Speaker. As I indicated, discussions have been going on with the other provinces and with the federal government for some time now.

The hon. member also made reference to permits, as some other0f his colleagues did. There is now, Mr. Speaker, as I indicated through the Public Utilities Board, the necessity to get a permit or a licence to carry particular kinds of goods and particular kinds of vehicles around the Province. And there are regulations in place. 5L1.7[j

November 23,1982 Tape No. 2610 nh-i MR. DAWE: The restriction of commercial vehicles is something that is being seriously reviewed. It has been that way for sometime now. It is of genuine concern to the general travelling public and we have been looking at methods and ways and possibilities of making some restrictions on the use of certain kinds of vehicles on our highroads from time to time. And in that regard I agree in part at least with the member for La['oilc (Mr.Ncary) in that some restrictions need to be put in place .

We are looking at that as a department and we will be looking at it as a government in due course . I would also like to indicate to the hon. member that a number of things have happened to our roads and are continuing to happen to our roads that have improved the general safety not only as it relates to the travel I ing public but as it relates to the transportation of commercial vehicles as well.

We have been attempting to improvc,with not as much help from the federal government as we would like, but attempting to improve the standard of our Trans Canada Highway, our primary highroad s;tem through the use of holding lanes, of four-- ianinq where possible and intersection improvements and we w.i I 1 continue to do so. And that wi I I iIrs lesson the number of restrictions that need to be placed on the travel of commercial vehicles. There are two reasons, I guess, Mr. Speaker, why this particular bill is being introduced right across the country at this point in time.

One is that some of the regulations, I guess, highlighted by the Mississauga incident ,have indicated that perhaps the safeguards and restrictions as it 5471

November 23,1982 Tape No. 2610 ah-2 MR.Di'WE: rolates to how the particular substance is carried is not adequate. Number two, if an accident should happen , if a spill should happen that has a very serious impact or potentially serious impact on the health and safety of human beings in the area or the Foliage or the trees,there should be a mechanism, a common mechanism put in place that can address that particular situation quickly and efficiently.

MrSpeaker, theso are some of the things that we are talking about with the other provinces and with the Federal government so that we can make sure that I F and when a spil] does happen, or if and when there is an accident and some caustic substances are released into the atmosphere that there is a procedure in place that is known by everyone concerned so it can be handled very quickly and efficiently.

So we are continuing with the training of inspectors, we are going to continue with an education programme that will inform not only the general public but also the operators of commercial equipment who may in factbe carrying such substances and we will be puLLing in place a procedure in this Province that will ensure that the residents of Newfoundland and Labrador are protected in a very efficient manner iind I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, this Province will have the best method in place of any province in Canada. 572

November 23, 1982 Tape 2611 EC - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DAME: Mr. Speaker, I would like to move second reading of this bill. On motion, a bill, 'An Act To Promote Public Safety In The Transportation Of Dangerous Goods," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole house on tomorrow. (Bill No. 61) l4R. OTTENFiEIMER: Order 50, Bill No. 70. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Wild Life Act (No. 2)," (Bill No. 70) MR. £PEAKER_(Aylward) : The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. SOME lION. MEMBERS: Floor, hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, Dill No. 70 is the one that I indicated in the House a couple of days ago would be coming up for debate fairly shortly and members opposite would have an opportunity to elaborate on their own opinions with respect to wildlife management in this Province. It relates also to the announcement that I made several weeks ago about the intention of the government to introduce stiffer penalties and so on, and other amendments to the Wild Life Act. It is pretty well explained in the explanatory notes found on the inside of the bill, Bill No. 70. I think I should begin, Mr.

Speaker, by stating categorically at the outset that I think it is fair to say that this Province has perhapo one of the most efficient wildlife management strategies in the whole country and this can be substantiated by the fact that other provinces have indeed expressed an 5473

November 23, 1982 rape 2611 EC - 2 * S MR. SIMMS: intcrcst in our programme and are, I believe, interested in implementing some of the programmes that we have included in our whole wildlife strategy. Also, there is further proof by looking at the wildlife populations in the Province. The caribou population is now in excess of 25,000 animals and our moose population is in excess of 50,000 animals. And I think,as a direct result of being able to maintain these populations, this Province now enjoys one of the higher success rates in all of North America. That is not to say, Mr.

Speaker, of course, that we do not experience some problems with respect to our wildlife resources and these problems, of course, come from numerous sources, but the most 5474

November 23, 1982 Tape No.2612 SD - I MR. SIMMS: persistent problem, I guess, as everybody is aware, is poaching. And despite all our efforts, the illegal killing of big game animals continually puts excessive pressure on our wildlife officials. This act,, 'The Act To Amend The Wild Life Act' contains some very important amendments which we hope will serve as major deterrences to would be offenders, i.e. the poachers.

It provides for three significant amendments: one, that there will be a provision included for the provincial courts to be able to receive in evidence a certificate from the Director of Wildlife; number two, the automatic forfeiture of items used to transport illegal big game will, also be included; and, of course, number three, there will be increases in the penalties where big game animals have been killed, trans- ported or possessed illegally.

Section 9 of the act is amended by adding a subsection to permit a certificate that is si(fnod by the Di.i octor of Wi idli. to to he entered in a prosecution in a Provincial Court as proof that a licence or seal or tag or whatever has or has not been issued to a person. The reason for that amendment, Mr.

Speaker, is that in prosecutions relative to licences and tags, it is frequently necessary to present evidence in Provincial Courts to establish certain facts pertaining to the issue of licencos, and this presently necessitates the appearance of the director or his delegate in court to simply state the information that is contained in their own records. The presentation of the certificate from the director would eliminate this inconvenience and, of course, it would also reduce costs.

Section 1.1 is amended by addIng a paragraph to subsection (5) wh.i cii wi I. I provide that the courts shall order forfeiture of anything that has been used 514.75

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2612 SD - 2 Mu : by its owner in relation to the transportation of big game that has been taken, killed or possessed illegally or contrary to the Wild Life Act or regulations. This amendment is considered to be quite appropriate and necessary in order to have consistency in the various Provincial Courts. 5475

November 23, 1982 Tape 2613 NM - 1 MR. SIMMS: In some cases the courts are currently orderinq the forfeiture of items such as vehicles and snowmobiles, while other courts of course, will not make such an order. So the amendment is considered important as a deterrent.as well to would be violators, but that would mean thonthat many such individuals who might risk convictions and fines might not be so inclined if they risked the loss of their equipment. And I guess the most significant amendment, Mr. Speaker, the third one, related to

section 7 (

a) of the act, which is the penalty section, is the one where penalties are imposed where big game animals have been taken contrary to the act or regulations. At present the act provides that a first offender receive a fine of not less than $500, and not more than $1,000. The alternative under that system, the present system, is simply to sentence an offender to a jail term of not loss than seven days. This present system, of cou rsc i s somewhat i ricons 1 L nt . If a court so decides it is now possible to impose a seven day jail sentence with no fine whatsoever.

If a fine is levied, however, a jail term of not less than three months must be given in default of payment. So the proposed amendment with respect to the first offenders is as follows: in the future a fine of not less than $1,000 and not more than $5,000 will be given for anyone convicted of an offence related to big game. If a first offender is not fined at all,the alternative will be for the courts to impose a jail sentence of not less than one month, and not more than 5477

November 23, 1982 Tape 2613 NM - 2 MR. SIMMS: six months, and the courts will rli;o,of coursehave the option to impose both the fine rind the imprisonment, thereby eliminating the inconsistency, Mr. Speaker, which now exists. With respect to a second offendor, within two years of a previous conviction, the act now allows for a sentence of at least fourteen days in jail and a $1,000 fine. In default of payment an additional fourteen days must be served, thus creating a minimum of twenty-eight days in jail.

And here again, of course,there is an alternative; a court may simply impose a sentence of twenty-one days with no fine wha Lsoevcr and again WO are facod with an inconsi stcncy. So the proposed amendment, Mr. Speaker, will be fine a second offender, first of all, as a person who has committed a second offence within a five year period, as opposed to the present two year period, and when such an offender is convicteda jail term of not less than one month and not more than six months,plus a fine of not less than $3,000 and not more than $10,000 would be imposed. 5 4 7 0

November 23, 1982 Tape 2614 EC - 1 MR. SIMMS: Through these proposed amendments we will again eliminate any inconsistency with respect to second offenders. That pretty well states what the amendments to the Wild Life Act will do in this particular bill, Bill No. 70. They will remove inconsistencies that are presently in existence and the increased penalties, as outlined, I hope are so important they will serve, we hope, as a deterrent to would be violators. I move second reading. SOME LION. MEMBERS: Iloar, hcar MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas) : The hon. the member for Terngat Mountains. MR.

WARREN: Mr. Speaker, we on this side do support the ministci in bringing in these chances to the Wild Life Act. I think, Mr. Speaker, we have seen in the past three or four years that people in this Province do not have any respect for the rules and regulations that have been handed down. And there is only one way for this government or for any society to beat this crowd of poachers, that is to bring in stiffer fines. And here we have a minister who has made more progress in his department since he became minister than has been made in any department in this qovernment since 1 became a member in 1979.

However, Mr. Speaker, I only wish that our judges could understand and could follow other parts of our society. here we have a person who kills a moose illegally, which he should not have done, ond he is (1O1fl(J to be fined a minimum of $1 ,000, whilo aiiothur pCrSn Wi 1 L jo down and hold up a gas staLl on 7 I 5479

November 23, 1982 Tape 2614 EC - 2 MR. WARREN: and practically geL off scot- free. There is something wrong with our system. V Mr. Speaker, it is not the minister's fault. The minister has done his duty by bringing in those a stringent regulations; however, I think we have to look at the rest of our society, seeing it is so lackadaisical in this day and age with people holding up service stations and so on. r. Sfleaker, I c10 not see P., anc the minister has not clarified it - for a first offence it does say $1,000 up to a 5480

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2615 MJ - 1 MR. G. WARREN: maximum of $5,000 and the second offence, set a jail term of six months or a fine of between $3,000 and not morethan $10,000. I am just wonderinri if this would probably be thE 0 appropriate time to suggest to the minister that probably an amendment could be brought in hero saying that an individual should not be issued a licence, should not he given the opportunity to receive a big game licence for at least the next five years. I am just wondering, Mr.

Speaker- it is there now but it is up to the judges discretion, I believe at the present time and I am just wondering if he is changing the act to bring in a stronger penalty in jail terms or dollar value. I would suggest to the minister, also that oven if it is there now for five years, why not bring it in for another live? Make it harder for them to obtain licences also. You know, if you are qoinq to try to turn off the poacher , you have to take every angle possible.

I mean, you are increasing the dollar value and you are increasing the jail term possibility but surely goodness we should also decrease his opportunities of receiving a licence. And the same thing applies to an impaired driver, T1r. Speoker. r think we are not severe enough with those people who break the lawand it makes it much more difficult for the rest of society to live in peace. Mr. Speaker, lam sure the minister in outs ide but I knew lie must be listeninu AN HON.MEMBER: lIe is out tu lki uij to his officials, that is ati. MR. WARREN: Yes. So, Mr. Speaker, a[thouqh this 5 4 81

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2615 MJ - 2 MR.G. WARREN: does pretty well pertain to the moose and the caribou populations and the poaching of tJiosc two specios and it may not have any droct bearing on this bill, I am just wondering if the minister would tell us - maybe it is under the federal regulations the migratory birds, the ducks, the rabbits and the ptarmiqan. 5482

November 23, 1982, Tape 2616, Page 1 -- apb MR. WARREN: How about the illegal hunting or rabbits, the illegal hunting of the ptarmigan. MR. SIMMS: That is a separate act t altogether. MR. WARREN: I know it is a separate act, but I just want to bring it up to the minister. I know it is a separate thing from this act altogether, but I think the minister should make those people aware also that he has the intentiOn of bringing in similar fines and imprisonment, and similar stipulations for those people. Because we are only seeing a small - MR. SIMMS: Should we increase fines? MR. WARREN: By all means.

By all means, If we ar going to do it to people who are poaching the moose and the caribou, let us do it to the rabbit hunters and to the partridge hunters. Because this is happening in a much greater volume to them than it is happening to the moose and the caribou. We are talking about the moose and the caribou because they are so valuable a commodity, because it is such valuable meat. But we do not hear about the rabbit hunter out in Trinity Bay who goes in and puts out 200 snares without a rabbit licence. We do not hear about that guy.

As I said to the minister, it may not be relevant to this bill, but I think, and I will be only too glad to stand in the House and support any similar measures which apply to small game hunters as well as large game hunters. And let us face another thing, Mr. Speaker. I have seen this just this past year when I tried, unsuccessfully, to get a moose, that there were moose hunters in the same area that I was in who were also snaring rabbits without a rabbit licence. So you see, Mr. Speaker, there were moose hunters hunting moose, but at the same time they 5483

November 23, 1982, Tape 2616, Page 2 -- apb MR. WARREN: had rabbit snares out, trying to catch some rabbits without a licence. And this is happening. A lot of the moose hunters - MR. SIMMS: Without a rabbit licence. MR._WARREN: That is right. So it is happening, that the moose hunter who has a licence to go down to Terra Nova to hunt a moose does not have a rabbit licence, but he brings back twenty-five or thirty rabbits with him. What I am saying, Mr. Speaker, is what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Let us not pick on the moose and the caribou hunters, let us pick on all of them, let us give all of them the justice they deserve. And the justice any poacher deserves is the highest penalty possible. That is the justice, as far as I am concerned, and the same thing goes for an impaired driver or anything else. ANHON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: He spent more time in the woods, my son, than you spent in school. MR. WARREN: So, Mr. Speaker, I suggest that the minister should look seriously at some of those clauses. I again commend the minister on bringing in those increased fines.

I am sure that if the minister would seriously consider some of those other avenues that his department can approach in stopping the poachers...-I ihink one of the causes, one of the problems with the poachers in this Province 0 5484

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2617 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: the great chance, if you are lucky, to get meat at a cheap price. If you are not lucky and get caught, then you have to pay the consequences. But the reason they are doing it, and I hasten to say this, is that with the economy of our Province at this time, and there are people out there on the bays of Newfoundland and around the Coast of Labrador who are practically desperate in finding meat - AN lION. MEMBER: This has nothing to do with the bill. MR. NEARY: No, he is merely pointing out one of the causes, one of the reasons. MR.

WARREN: - and this is one of the clauses, that the people just cannot afford, cannot afford to go into the supermarkets and pay five and six dollars for a kilogram of meat - I think it is in kilograms now instead of pounds, is it not? So, Mr. Speaker, it is a desperate move on behalf of the poacher. But the poacher when he gets caught, even if he does not get caught, Mr. Speaker, I am sure some of those poachers when they go in the woods they must be very nervous about the whole ordeal and some of thorn do not give a hoot about whether they get cauqht or not.

However, I beilcve the minister will hold to his guns - excuse the pun - on this bill in bringing in these increased fines. And take into consideration too, that if you are going to increase the fines, let us increase period in which he can qualify for a 'icence. MR._SIMNS: Do you mean the point you mentioned earlier? MR. WARREN: Yes. I think it is worth ocriousi y cons ulcr i ni Mr. Speaker, T (10 not think I have anything further to say on this bi. I think the 4 5155

Novimber 23, 1982 Tape No. 2617 SD - 2 MR. WARREN: minister has made a progressive move and it is in the right direction. And I hope now that the minister has done his work, that the media of the Province will do their work and let it go out to the poachers, be aware that - you know, if one sorry person has to cough up $1,000 or $5,000, I have a feeling that once others know about that person it will not take too long

November 23, 1982 Tape 2618 NM - 1 before our poaching will be on the decrease, and with that probably we will have the opportunity of having the licences, the moose licences themselves, issued in more abundance to the people in the Province. En, Mr. Speaker, I support the bill, but I would like to think the minister can go a little bit further in some instances. SOME I-ION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : If the minister speaks now he closes debate. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I will just make a few final comments on it.

I first of all want to thank the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. t'arren) whom I have discussed this particular bill with on a number of occasions and I know that he is sincere in his support and I appreciate it. He mentioned I think at the conclusion of his remarks that we have to depend on the media and that is obviously true. We also, I would suggest, have to depend considerably on the qeneral public who have been most helpful and co-operative in the past in reporting violations. Because we obviously do not have wildlife protection officers in every part of the Province, as much as we would like to.

But I agree with him and I do hope, and I think they will, I think they gave it pretty good coverage when I announced initially the changes and amendments that we were qoinq to make, and they were very supportive then and I think they will conoidni to bc, least I hope they will consider to be so. I thank the hon. member for the support that he has offered here today. 587

November 23, 1982 Tape 2618 NM 2 MR. SINIMS I wilT -just mention in passing that the hon. member talked about the fines being assessed For those people convicted of big game violations, and then compared it to violations under the Criminal Code of Canada like robbery or whatever, Of course he would be aware that I have no jurisdiction in that regard. Perhaps the Criminal Code of Canada needs to be revised and updated. I am sure it does. MR. NEARY: They are working on it. MR. SIMMS: They are workine on it now, tfle non. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) tells me.

With respect to the point that the hon. inembe r For Tornqa t Moun ta ins (Mr. Warren) made concerning not permitinq a violator, or somebody who has been convicted from holding a big game 1icencc or r lengthy period of time, that is 5466

November 23, 1982 Tape 2619 PK - 1 R. SIMMS: already covered under the act as he suspected. The first offenders are not permitted to hold a big game licence For a perjod of five years. Second of lenders are not permitted to hold a big game licence indefinitely. In other words they probably will never get one again.

So I think that is fairly stringent, Perhajs it is one of the matters that has not been related publicly enough, and perhaps it is one of the matters that should be emphasized a little more that a person convicted of a big game violation first offonsewifi not be permitted to hold a big (J000 licence for live years, a second offender, it is indefinite, might never be able to - MR. wz (Inaudible) MR. SIMMS: Well, perhaps so. In any event the point is that it is already covered under the present act. So I think there is a reasonable deterrent there at the present time.

This bill, of course, covers big game violations. The hon. member teJked a lot about samll game violations and that is an area which we are constantly reviewing. And I can assur you that I am not satisfied with everything we have now. My officials and I are continuously looking at and reviewing the acts covering small game as well as big game, and we will be looking at some of the suggestions that he made. I guess, Mr. Speaker, that is about all I can say in closing the deb.ate That is about the only point that the hon. member raised. I hope that 1 have addressed it and covered it.

I therefore move second reading of the bill. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear On motion, a bill,

An Act To Amend The Wildlife Act, (No.2)',read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently, by leave. (Bill No. 4) 5L9

November 23, 1982 Tape 2619 PR - 2 On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on certain bills, Lj COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE • A bill,

An Act To Amend The Conflict CC Intrc;C AcL, 197." (Cdl No. 15) MR. CHAIRMAN (MCN1C!IOLAS): Shell Clause 1 carry? MR. MARSHALL: Clausc 1 as amended, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Clause 1 as amended. 5490

November 23,1982 Tape No. 2620 ah-1 MR.MARSIIALL: Mr. Chairman, that is the amendment that I proposed. It was just carried yesterday. The amendment that the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) proposed was defeated, so this is Clause(

l) as amended. On motion, Clause (1) as amended, carried. Motion, that the committee report having passed the bill with amendment,carried. MR.MARSHALL: Order 3 Bill No. 59 A bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Utilities Act.' (Bill No. 59) On motion, clauses (1) and (2) carried. MR.CrIAIRMAN (Dr.McNicholas) : Shall Clause (3) carry? MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman. MR.CHAIRMAN: The hon.member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.ROBERTS: The bill was debated, I think, when I was out of the Province and I am surely not going to debate it.

But if I may, at least for the purposes of the debate go back to Clause (1) of the amending bill and not to debate it, I mean, what is, is, but could the minister - the Minister of Communications (Mr.Doyle) is not here . I assume the President of the Council (Mr.Marshall) who inherits the short stick on all these things will deal with it. These

definitions are extremely broad and I wonder if the minister could tell us whether they are comparable to the delinitions that have been adopted in other provinces? I know other provinces are moving to assert control over cable, and that is fair enough. There are those who say that is not constitutionally proper but the court will decide 5 4 91 1.

November 23, 1982 Tape 2621 EC 1 MR. ROBERTS: that and there is no 1(0500 We ahO(t[d back off ,laeI(L the CoUrt decision. V Oho knows what the court will say? But the

definitions ccc very, very broad. I am told, for example, it would cover the police channels; it would cover far more than just cable television. My understanding of the Minister of Communication's (Mr. Doyle) remarks at second reading is that what the government are particularly concerned about are the cable channels and trying to bring these under a provincial regulatory regime. But these defini- tions here go well beyond that, and while I am not going to belabour the point, can the minister tell us, do these mirror or do these incorporate the

definitions elsewhere or are they our own home qrown, home brewed

definitions? - in which case they are very, very broad. I gather now the minister has been given some information. Could he tell US? MR. CIIAIRNT\N (Dr. McNicholas): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, it is my under- standing that these are the sane

definitions as were used in the other provincial Octs, which were looked at when this bill was brought in. Because the hon. member knows, as he has already indicated, that the substance of this bill has really been challenged and subjected to a court case and consequently, we have used the same defini- tions for that purpose. Lv1!.t(U1i1i51b VtL. LlIaILlIIdIl. MR._ChAIRMAN: The hen, the member for the 3traitof Befle IsLe. MR.ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will certainly let it stand at that. I mean, there is litigation, as I recoil, in British Columbia. I am not 5 92

November 23, 1982 Tape 2621 CC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: sure who is taking it to court or why, but there obviously is a constitutional issue, it has been raised, and presumably in due course, the Supreme Court of Canada will be asked to rule on it and will resolve the matter, and we will leave it at that. But as long as these

definitions are similar to these in other provinces, all we are saying is if we are wrong we are in good company when we are wrong, and i i we are right then we are fine. I do understand correctly, do I, that it is the government's intention in asserting its regulatory authority as established by this bill, to deal only with the eal)lc' 1(1 PV1UIOfl' We are not reaehinq out into Answer Telephone or, YOU know, these paging devices and all that, rather, we are dealing with the MR. NEARY: Pay T.V. MR. ROBERTS: My friend and colleague, the Opposition Leader says pay T . V. -, the cable , the conveyance of signals by channola, by cable. Okay, we will leave it at that and see what happens. 5L9j 4.

November 23, 1182 '{'apo No. 2622 SD - I MR. ROBERTS: Whore are we now? On Clause 4, are we? would like to have a word on CLiuse 4 when we come to it. AN lION. MEMBER: (inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: I apparently have caused, which is often the case, confusion and chaos at the Table. think, Mr. Chairman, you have called Clauses 1 and 2 and they have been adopted. 1 was allowed to make some remarks on Clause 3 which may have stretched (i use 3 a little. If that has been adopted I would just like to ask a question on

section 4 of the bill. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Shall Clause 4 carry? MR. ROBERTS: Well before it does couL I simply ask the minister, Clause lwhich is the one giving the PU Board the authority to allow non-telephone company attachments and that is certainly an authori-" T hope they will exerci'e, that becomes law on assent. lauses 1 and 2 will come into force when proclaimed by the Cabinet. And again that is not an unusual type of situation, a lot of our leqislat ion is subject to that kind of enacting clause. Could the minister tell us what is the ministry's intention?

Do they intend to proclaim this only after the litigation is disposed of, assuming that the litigation upholds the provincial side as opposed to the federal side on this or1: or is it their intentIon to proclaim this into effect at some int, you know, a little down the roacl,possibly when come regulations are made? The minister, I think, grasped the gist of what I am saying and I am not arguinq for I cc against, if the Province feels it has jurisdiction and wants to assert it I am all for it. But we are being asked to enact legislation and at the same time the Cabinet are being given a power to withhold it.

What (10 they intend to do? 5494

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2622 SD - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: It is not for the court case, Mr. Chairman, even thoucjh we are aware of the court case. I It is for the purpose as the hon. gentleman indicated of formulating amendments to the regulations and appropriate regulations. Now I have said it is not for the court case but we will obviously, beforehand become apprised of the stag6 of, you know, how far away it is From final determination as to jurisdictionand if we can estimate it is only a matter of a month or two we may wait then.

But the f)rimory concern is For Lho rcqiilal ions. MR. ROBERTS: I thank the minister and I will not embarrass him by asking him what regulations are going to be amended. I am hard put to think of any - MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) making regulations. MR. ROBERTS: - okay. MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) M.R. ROBERTS: There cortainl.y are, as Far as I am aware, no regulations which bear upon it now. In fact, on the Public Utilities Act I am not sure what regulations tho Pr'ri'' makes; the PU Board perhaps with Cabinet's assept, makes, its regulations, needless to say, for its own qovernance MR. MARSHALL: (Tnaudibl

e) set up MR. ROBERTS: Okay, that is Fair enough. Can I ask one other question then? 51395

November 23, 1982 Tape No. 2623 lB-i MD. ROBERTS-:- Do we intend to intervene, to ask leave of the British Columbia courts to become a party to the litigation ? It may have come up in other provinces and it conceivably could come up here. Do we intend to refer to this? Do we intend to seek a jurisprudential adjudication of Lids constitutional issue or are we going to be bound by what is decided in courts in