Newfoundland and Labrador Hansard — Members' Statements; Statements by Ministers — 9 May 2005 (45th General Assembly, 2nd Session)
2005-05-09
Newfoundland and Labrador — Debates (Hansard)
May 9, 2005 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLV No.
The House met at 1:30 p.m.
MR. SPEAKER (Hodder): Order, please!
Admit strangers.
This afternoon the Speaker would like to welcome to the Speaker's gallery
Mrs. Leona Aglukkaq, Minister of Finance and Chairperson of the Financial
Management Board in the Territory of Nunavut, and Robert Vardy, the Deputy
Minister.
Welcome to our House.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Statements by Members
MR. SPEAKER: The Speaker has members' statements today as follows: The
hon. the Member for the District of Grand Falls-Buchans; the hon. the Member for
the District of St. John's Centre; the hon. the Member for the District of
Port de Grave; the hon. the Member for the District of St. John's North; and
the hon. the Member for the District of Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.
The hon. the Member for Grand Falls-Buchans.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I rise today to congratulate Mr. Sterling Thomas, a longtime
resident of Grand Falls-Windsor, on being recognized at the Provincial Elks
Association conference held recently in Grand Falls-Windsor, for fifty years of
dedicated service to not only Grand Falls Lodge 59, but to the entire provincial
group.
Mr. Speaker, over the past fifty years, Sterling has serviced as past Exalted
Ruler of Lodge 59 for three terms, was past District Deputy of Number 1 District
Newfoundland and Labrador and has sat on many committees. He claims his most
enjoyable activity is when he was Chairman of the Sick Committee. This has
enabled him to visit the Central Newfoundland Regional Health Care Centre on
Christmas Eve every year, and can you imagine that he has not missed a Christmas
Eve since 1963.
Sterling Thomas will be ninety-one years old in July. He is a remarkable
citizen and a living legend for Grand Falls-Windsor. His hard work and
dedication towards his community and Province, even to this day, is
extraordinary. In fact, he has been named Grand Falls-Windsor Citizen of the
Year twice.
Mr. Speaker, I ask all members of this hon. House to join me in
congratulating Mr. Sterling Thomas on being recognized for his many years of
service and extend gratitude to him for his commitment to the people of Grand
Falls-Windsor, and indeed the Province.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's Centre.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SKINNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to recognize fifty-five years of volunteer service given by Mrs.
Blanche Byrne to the Royal Canadian Legion, St. John's Branch.
Mrs. Byrne is a resident of St. John's Centre who, since 1949, has given
thousands of hours of volunteer service to the Royal Canadian Legion in the
Province and, in particular, to the Royal Canadian Legions here in St. John's.
Fifty-five years of dedicated volunteerism to one organization, Mr. Speaker.
Fifty-five years of giving, fifty-five years of helping others, fifty-five years
of contribution to her fellow citizens. Mrs. Byrne is an example to all
Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and has been recognized for her efforts by the
Royal Canadian Legion. She has received many meritorious awards and
commendations from the Legion but, most significantly, she has been awarded the
Palm Leaf Award for meritorious service, the highest commendation that one can
receive from the Legion.
Mrs. Byrne has held many positions within the Legion over the years and has
worked on numerous committees and campaigns on behalf of the Royal Canadian
Legion. As well, she has found time over those fifty-five years to give time to
other organizations such as the Girl Guides, the CNIB, the Red Cross, the
Salvation Army and the Kidney Foundation, to name a few.
I ask all hon. Members of the House of Assembly to join me in thanking and
recognizing the contribution of Mrs. Blanche Byrne for her fifty-five years of
volunteerism.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.
MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to congratulate the fortieth graduating class of Ascension
Collegiate in Bay Roberts.
I attended this graduation ceremony on Saturday evening and was delighted to
see the enthusiasm and interest of the graduates, their families and their
friends. The church service was held at St. Matthew's Anglican Church which
can accommodate a congregation of 1,100 people, and, Mr. Speaker, 1,100 people
packed this church on Saturday for their graduation service.
The theme for this year's graduation was: The Places You'll Go. The
valedictorian was Megan Dawe, and the banquet was held at the Bay Area in Bay
Roberts. The total number of graduates this year was 250, and of that number 234
were in attendance.
Mr. Speaker, this very high turnout shows the tremendous interest of our
students for all aspects of their school life. Again, congratulations to the
fortieth graduating class of Ascension Collegiate.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's North.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. RIDGLEY: Mr. Speaker, on Friday evening, I was honoured to attend a
ceremony at Government House where His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor presented
awards for the provincial association of Canadian Parents for French. These
awards are to honour those who have been judged as having done exemplary work to
promote the French language in Newfoundland and Labrador.
The core French teacher of the year was Debbie Olson from Xavier Junior High
in Deer Lake, while the French immersion teacher of the year was Susan Forward,
vice-principal of Brother Rice Junior High in St. John's.
The third award was for volunteer of the year, and this went to Jordan
Wright, a young resident of St. John's North. Jordan is a student at Memorial
University and will receive his Bachelor of Arts degree this year. He is a
member of the Northeast Avalon
Chapter of Canadian Parents for French and is
youth representative on the provincial board of CPF. Jordan dedicates a great
deal of time to encouraging young people to learn French, and this award was
recognition of his efforts.
Mr. Speaker, I ask all members of this House to join me in congratulating
these three people for their efforts in promoting French in Newfoundland and
Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse Au Clair.
MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to recognize a business in my district who recently took
part in
a trade mission to Chicago in the United States.
Mr. Speaker, Labrador Preserves of Forteau , which produces bakeapples and
partridgeberry spreads and syrups from Labrador, was one of twelve Newfoundland
and Labrador companies that comprised a Team Canada Atlantic Trade Mission to
Chicago.
Larry Stephen, who is the Marketing Director, stated that they are targeting
upscale gourmet retail chains. This trip also allowed Labrador Preserves to
locate an importer/exporter, which is key to this business. He said they have
found three retailers who have agreed to take their products, providing they are
available through a distributor in the region. Mr. Stephen stated that he has
found two interested distributors and a deal is close to being made which will
see top-notch Labrador product distributed to the U.S. market by as early as
next month.
Mr. Speaker, the success of Labrador Preserves is an excellent example of the
fine business sense that exists in Southern Labrador, and I am sure this
business will continue to boom as word of their top-notch product continues to
spread throughout North America.
Mr. Speaker, I ask all hon. members to join with me in congratulating Stelman
Flynn, the owner of Labrador Preserves, on their determination to make their
rural Newfoundland and Labrador business a success, and wish them all the best
in their future endeavours.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Statements by Ministers.
Statements by Ministers
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury
Board.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today in honour of National Nursing Week, to recognize a dedicated
group of caregivers - our nurses, who continue to make a difference for patients
every day.
This year's theme, "Nursing: Patients First, Safety Always",
appropriately reflects the selfless professional commitment that all nurses
share in the delivery of safe care every day. We most often think of nurses as
front-line care providers delivering urgent and emergency care in hospitals, but
they play key roles in many other areas of health care delivery. For example,
public health nurses immunize our children, they educate communities about
healthy lifestyle choices, and they seek to improve our wellness in partnership
with other health care professionals. In rural communities, nurses are often a
main point of contact for daily health issues.
Our Province is proud to have over 8,000 practicing members of the nursing
profession, representing one of the largest groups of health care providers in
the Province. Close to 100 per cent of nurses who work in this Province were
also educated here, and we are fortunate to be among the lowest in average ages
of nurses in the country. We also have the highest rate of full-time employment
of nurses in the country. Each of these facts will positively impact the future
of our health care system.
Our government recognizes that the nursing profession is a cornerstone of our
health care system. Nurses are well placed to advise government on changes
needed in our health system to put patients first and build upon the safe,
quality care currently delivered. Who else is as close to the front lines and as
close to patient needs as are nurses?
Today, I am proud to say that we have honoured our Blueprint commitment to
establish a provincial Chief Nurse position and announced that Ms Anita Ludlow
has been selected to fill this position.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SULLIVAN: We look forward to her contribution and working in
partnership with the Nurses Union, whose president is with us today, with the
Association of Registered Nurses and the Council of Licensed Practical Nurses,
as we continue our primary health care renewal, health human resource planning
and the implementation of a new Selfcare-Telecare initiative that was announced
in Budget 2005 to improve access to services in rural and remote communities.
Please join me to pay tribute to the nursing profession, and thank them for
their contributions to our health, our families and communities.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.
MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I want to congratulate Ms Anita Ludlow on her new position as the Chief Nurse
for the Province, Mr. Speaker, but it is so ironic that you sit here today and
listen to the minister who stands and proclaims that he is so proud of the
nursing profession in this Province, and to know that in the last year they have
not had the opportunity, or tried to have the opportunity, to have respectful,
dignified negotiations with nurses in this Province. It is only because of the
regressive, heavy-handed negotiating tactics of the government opposite that
nurses in our Province this year went without a contract. They have not come to
the negotiating table.
Mr. Speaker, a time like this is probably a good time for the minister to
stand in his place and tell us what the future of the nursing profession is
going to be in this Province. When are nurse practitioners going to be able to
practice the full scope of their work? What is the plan for the new compromise,
or the new configuration, of LPNs, of nurses within our health care system for
the future?
Mr. Speaker, to stand here today - and I acknowledge the great work that
nurses do in this Province, because their work is invaluable. It is invaluable
in our society, it is invaluable in our health care system; but, in recent
weeks, I followed the president of the nursing union in the media as she
travelled around this Province, from rally to rally, trying to put forward the
views of nurses and health care in this Province, out trying to stop
recommendations put forward by groups like the HayGroup.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The member's allotted time has expired.
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.
MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?
MR. E. BYRNE: A few seconds to clue up.
MR. SPEAKER: Leave has been granted for some concluding comments.
MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
- out trying to stop recommendations in a report, like the HayGroup report,
that will compromise health care in this Province in the future.
I think if they really honoured the profession, and say that they want to
dignify the profession in the way that they do, they will remove some of those
recommendations from the table. They will have good negotiations with nurses in
our Province and give them the benefits that they deserve, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am pleased to join in recognizing National Nursing Week, and to honour and
thank the 5,600 registered nurses in Newfoundland and Labrador who provide
invaluable service to patients throughout the Province, Mr. Speaker, and to also
congratulate Anita Ludlow on her appointment as head nurse for the Province.
I, too, Mr. Speaker, am concerned that these 5,600 nurses are afraid to sit
down with this government and negotiate a collective agreement, because they are
afraid of what concessions this government will insist upon and impose upon them
as they did to the public sector workers a year ago, Mr. Speaker. We also have
the problem of nurse practitioners who have been trained in this Province for a
role that they are not being given by this government because government has not
moved forward in terms of ensuring -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's allotted time has expired.
MR. HARRIS: By leave?
MR. SPEAKER: Has leave been granted?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes.
MR. SPEAKER: Leave has been granted.
MR. HARRIS: - has not moved forward, Mr. Speaker, in ensuring that the
primary health care role of nurse practitioners is fostered and developed. That
needs to be done. It is unfortunate that they are still trying to find their
place and many are unemployed in this Province, in that role as nurse
practitioner, despite their training.
I would like to see those things change, Mr. Speaker, and have a more
welcoming position for nurses in relation to dealings with this government so
they don't fear collective bargaining which is supposed to be an opportunity
for them to improve their working conditions and wages so that they can have a
decent life too.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Further Statements by Ministers?
The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to stand today and announce that today, Monday, May
9, is Municipal Awareness Day.
This is a time for residents of our Province to reflect on what their
councils do for them. Municipal governments provide many essential services such
as water and sewer, fire protection, waste management and countless other
services.
The benefits of municipal councils to residents is sometimes not clear. For
instance, having community organized fire protection services helps keep the
cost of insurance down for this type of coverage. Municipal councils ensure that
communities have orderly and controlled planning. They provide basic services
such as clean water, street lighting, garbage collection, and recreational areas
of children and families. All of these are important services which councils
provide for residents on a daily basis. Every day councils and staff work hard
so that residents get the best possible service for the best possible price. In
Budget 2005, the provincial government recognized the importance of our
municipalities by providing funding under the Municipal Capital Works Program,
the Multi-year Capital Works Program and the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador
Infrastructure Program to the tune of $83 million and through $19 million in
Municipal Operating Grants.
This year, Mr. Speaker, in particular, Municipal Awareness Day has important
meaning because this September residents in our municipalities will once again
go before the polls and vote for their councils. Not only should we reflect on
what our councils do for us, but we should consider how important they are to
our democratic society. This is the opportunity for the people of Newfoundland
and Labrador to voice their opinion and elect whom they want to represent them
on the local level.
However, the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Municipalities has
conducted a poll which states that only 43.2 per cent of councillors and mayors
will seek re-election. We have partnered with the NLFM to promote how important
it is for people to run for council.
Mr. Speaker, as a former mayor, I can certainly vouch for how important it is
to sit on municipal councils. There are members on this side of the House of
Assembly and on the other side who have also participated in municipal
government. Most people volunteer their time and effort to sit on municipal
councils. It is a difficult job but very rewarding.
I want to take this time to encourage anyone who is even remotely considering
running for council to give it serious thought, and to ask my colleagues on both
sides of this House to encourage constituents in their districts to consider
running. Municipal government is a backbone of our strong, democratic society.
We need as many candidates as possible to ensure that on September 27, voters
will have a choice on who will represent them.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I want to thank the minister for an advanced copy of his statement. No doubt,
from time to time we do reflect on the work that is being done by municipal
councils, local service districts within our Province. Many of these councillors,
Mr. Speaker, are there, volunteering their time, without any opportunity for
remuneration because, really, there has been difficulty in being able to balance
a budget.
I am not surprised, Mr. Speaker, when the minister said that only 43 per cent
of their current councillors and mayors will seek re-election. I would like to
see another poll done, that of the urban municipalities versus that of the rural
municipalities. I would think that in the rural municipalities you would see
even fewer of these people recognized, giving themselves for service, because I
have never seen it - and I am being honest when I say that. Any time when the
morale has been any lower than what it is, the apprehension is there, the
uncertainty is there, and this is also confirmed by the Federation of
Municipalities. I could use a number of quotes, but I will just use one. The
President, Mr. Brett, feels the Province was also in a position to postpone the
plan, $1.9 million cut to Municipal Operating Grants in the Budget, and this is
what he said: We have always felt this was -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The member's allotted time has expired.
Does the member have leave?
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.
MR. SPEAKER: Leave has been granted.
MR. LANGDON: We have always felt this was a shortsighted decision and we
stand by our assessment, said Brett. While the cuts were focused on
municipalities with growing tax bases, no new revenues were offered by the
provincial government to make up for the cut. We strongly urge that no further
cuts in municipal operations be imposed until an agreement is finalized on
municipal revenue. He also said: Unless we start paying attention to the
crumbling municipal infrastructure in most rural communities, economic
development will remain a pipe dream.
So, Mr. Speaker, it is a day for reflection and I am sure that many of the
smaller councils out there, as I said, are really finding the toughness going in
their communities and I would be very surprised if very many of them volunteer
their services in the fall.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.
MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I, too, thank the minister for an advanced copy of his statement, and be
associated with the comments that others have made in the valuable service that
are provided by municipal leaders in our Province. They are the form of
government that are closest to the people and have the pulse on what is
happening in our Province, particularly in rural areas of our Province. It is
very difficult, Mr. Speaker, for people to become involved because they are
taking the heat for things that are not happening in rural parts of our
Province. It is surprising that not even greater numbers are not stepping
forward because one of the things that are happening in -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The member's allotted time has expired.
MR. COLLINS: By leave, Mr. Speaker.
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.
MR. SPEAKER: Leave has been granted.
MR. COLLINS: Thank you.
In rural areas of our Province we see, with out migration, the tax base being
eroded. We also see the dwindling populations, Mr. Speaker. What we have to
acknowledge in our Province is that as people leave, it is mainly the younger
people - we are an aging population and we need the younger people to remain in
our Province in order to pick up and take over and provide the leadership that
is going to be required for the future.
So, Mr. Speaker, I encourage this government, by way of the ads that they
have been running lately, to increase awareness of the importance of municipal
government in our Province and do what we can in order to make sure that we have
a full slate of candidates to run in the September election and that we have
good contests so that people have a choice of who will lead their communities.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Further statements by ministers?
Oral Questions.
Oral Questions
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, the Premier and the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture made a
clear, unmistakable, written promise to fish harvesters to consult before
implementing production quotas.
I ask the Premier again today: Doesn't he believe, as a matter of
principle, that a promise is a promise and that promises made by him, as the
Premier, and his government should be kept? Why is he insisting today on
breaking his promise to fish harvesters and their union?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I have indicated previously in this House, when the Leader of
the Opposition has asked this question on several occasions, that we have in
fact consulted. We have gone around the Province. Our members, our MHAs have
consulted. The Minister of Fisheries has consulted. We have all had discussions
with representatives of the industry through the course of our role as MHAs. We
have also basically taken the advice of people who have written reports on this.
You know, unlike the hon. members opposite, we do not like leaving reports on
the shelves. We look at them, we take them under advisement, and then we act on
them. That is what this government is about. It is about action, and we are
proceeding forward and on this basis, Mr. Speaker.
[Comments from the gallery]
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the security if they would ask this gentleman to leave the gallery
immediately.
[Comments from the gallery]
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The Speaker further orders that the gentleman be identified and barred from
the gallery for the next ten sitting days.
[Comments from the gallery]
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The Speaker further orders that this gentleman also be identified and that he
be barred for the next ten sitting days.
[Disturbance in the gallery]
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
This House is in recess. The Speaker orders that the galleries be cleared,
and that they stay cleared for the rest of this sitting day.
Recess
MR. SPEAKER (Hodder): Order, please!
Before the House recessed, the Chair notes that about three minutes had
expired in Question Period. When we start now we will go for the balance of the
half-hour allocation, about twenty-seven minutes.
The Chair had recognized the Leader of the Opposition. I recognize him again
now for a supplementary question.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, along with the promise to consult, the Premier also promised on
many occasions that he would not spend money on advertising campaigns to promote
government's position on issues.
I ask the Premier: Why did he once again break this promise, go back on his
word again, and begin an advertising campaign on production quotas this past
weekend?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I think what we indicated when we were in
Opposition was that we would not spend money promoting ourselves, as the hon.
gentleman did when he had his own campaign and the face of the Premier, at that
particular time, was throughout the ads.
From time to time government has a duty and an obligation to explain exactly
what its position is to the general public on various issues. As well, of
course, when we came out of the Accord - which was a very successful
undertaking, a very successful exercise - what we tried to do was reinforce the
pride in Newfoundland and Labrador for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians as a
result of that exercise, and to try and basically build on the good feeling and
the momentum that had been created through the Atlantic Accord.
When government does that, you will notice that government does not do it on
a self-promotion basis, as the hon. gentleman opposite did when he was Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We all know that the Premier is pretty slick with words and he must be mighty
proud of the circumstance that he has created in the Province today, of his own
making.
Mr. Speaker, on Friday the Premier said he could not tolerate or support fish
harvesters protesting by occupying government buildings. I ask the Premier: Why
did he condone support and encourage protesting fish harvesters to occupy the
offices of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans when he visited with them on
April 29, 2003? I ask the Premier, Mr. Speaker: Why was it right, in his mind,
for protesters to occupy a government office then but it is wrong now?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I have said time and time again in his
hon. House that this government is not going to condone law-breaking; nor would
I expect the hon. gentleman opposite. Nor would I expect, when he was the
unelected Premier of the Province, that he, in fact, would condone law-breaking
himself, even though from time to time during the Friede Goldman issues he tried
to incite people, as he has been doing in the House of Assembly recently, but we
do not condone that.
When hundreds of people take over a government building and they enter the
building, a building which is locked, you know, these things are contrary to the
Criminal Code and, as a result, action has to be taken. We cannot allow
lawlessness to happen in this Province. We will not condone it, we will not put
up with it, and we will allow the justice officials and the police of the
Province to take the appropriate action.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The more the Premier speaks, the more people will see through him. It is okay
one day and not okay the next day, depending on what he wants to happen.
Mr. Speaker, the Premier continuously states that a production quota system
is, in his view, in the best interest of rural Newfoundland and Labrador. I ask
the Premier today: How is the landing of crab in Nova Scotia in the best
interest of this Province, especially the rural communities that depend and rely
upon processing that crab? How is that in the best interest of Newfoundland and
Labrador?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I am glad the hon. gentleman asked that
question because he is quite right; the landing of crab in Nova Scotia is
certainly not in the best interests of Newfoundland and Labrador and we
certainly do not approve of it. As a matter of fact, we are quite disappointed
in the fact that it is happening. You know, if harvesters decide to take a
resource which is a resource of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and
decide to land it in Nova Scotia where it will be processed by processors in
Nova Scotia, whereby plant workers in Nova Scotia will get the work from that,
whereby truckers in Nova Scotia will get the benefit of that -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: From our perspective, we are against giveaways in this
Province. We are also against take-aways. We regret that they have decided to
take this action, and it is very, very unfortunate.
I agree, it is certainly not in the best interest of the Province, but that
is not a decision that this government has made. We have made a decision to do
what is in the best interest of rural Newfoundland and Labrador in order to
spread this resource evenly around this Province from an adjacency perspective.
So, we are doing it in the best interest of the people of the Province. The
harvesters are deciding to take it - on their own decision, on their own back -
to take the product elsewhere, and that is very unfortunate.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Very unfortunate, and everybody in the Province knows it was caused by the
Premier himself. So, it is not in the best interest of Newfoundland and
Labrador. Another good reason maybe to reconsider, as he was asked by the Member
for Placentia & St. Mary's last week.
Mr. Speaker, the Premier continuously states that a production quota system
is in the best interest of plant workers in the Province. He says that as well,
and so does the minister. But on Thursday, the Minister of Fisheries confirmed
that fish plant workers would be negatively affected by the issuance of a new
licence in St. Anthony.
I ask the Premier again: How is the new licence for St. Anthony in the best
interest of the other plant workers in the Province, especially in the year
where there are also quota reductions already impacting negatively?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, the plant licence - the crab licence in St. Anthony has nothing
to do with the raw material sharing system. It is a completely different issue.
The crab licence in St. Anthony was issued based on an order by the Supreme
Court -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. TAYLOR: - to reconsider a patently unreasonable decision by the
patently unreasonable minister from Twillingate & Fogo, Mr. Speaker. That is
where that came from. The raw material sharing system, yes, it does, over time,
provide us with the opportunity to ensure that regional balance takes place in
this Province, that people in plants have the stability of knowing what the
supplies to their plants will be. That, Mr. Speaker, is what some people on the
other side of the House were advocating over the past number of years.
Last year at this time, or a little earlier than this time, about a week
earlier than now, members on the opposite side, like the Member for Twillingate
& Fogo, were making the same accusations about crab going to Nova Scotia and
we were being blamed for not doing it. Now we are trying to do something and now
they are telling us not to do it.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Pretty telling, too, that anytime you mention St. Anthony, the Premier does
not want to answer the question. He lets the member for the area answer the
question.
Mr. Speaker, the Premier continuously states that a production quota system
is in the best interest of our fishing industry, generally. On Friday he stated,
in a very flippant, arrogant manner outside the House, that if a season has to
be lost, basically, too bad. The hardest kind of luck.
I ask the Premier: How does he explain that losing $500 million worth of
activity is in the best interest of the fishing industry and the economy of
rural communities?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, as usual, the Leader of the Opposition is putting words into a
quote from me that are not what I said. I did not basically say it is too bad in
that kind of a flippant and arrogant manner. I am basically stating the facts.
If, in fact, this season is lost, we regret that. We do not want that to happen.
The Minister of Fisheries does not want that to happen. Nobody in this House
wants this to happen, under any circumstances. Hon. members opposite want it to
happen because it is in their political best interest to make it happen. They
are trying to maximize it and do what they can, but that is not what I said. If
it happens, it is not because of this government. The government -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. Leader of the Opposition has asked a question and the Premier is
replying. I ask all members for their co-operation.
The hon. the Premier, time to complete your answer.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, this government is trying to bring, what
we said, stability and sustainability to this industry. Now, because the
harvesters decide that they are going to protest that or they disagree with
that, they have a right to have a reasonable protest, but they do not have any
right to do what they are doing and what they have done in this particular House
here. So, that is ongoing, but the people of the Province need to know that what
we are trying to do is to try and do what is in the best interest of rural
Newfoundland and Labrador.
Mr. Speaker, the general public of Newfoundland and Labrador need to know
that we have not told them that they cannot land their product in Newfoundland
and Labrador. That is a decision that they have made themselves and they are
taking it to Nova Scotia, and that is unfortunate.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
What the people want is for the Premier to be reasonable, to be human about
it and admit that he has made a mistake and start over and live to his promises
that he gave in writing.
Mr. Speaker, this government's strategy, as clearly stated by the Minister
of Fisheries and confirmed by the Premier on Friday, is to have fewer plants and
a rationalized industry. The short-term plan - because he talked about the
short-term and long-term - consists of an attempt to force production quotas
down the throats of harvesters. The long-term plan will be to force the closure
of smaller community plants. Will the Premier now advise this House and the
people of the Province which plants will have to close, and in what order, in
order for him to reach his long-term plan that he talked about on Friday?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province know that is
not the long-term plan; there is no such long-term plan. What is, in fact,
happening out there, and the people understand it, is that you have a declining
resource. The crab resource is actually shrinking. We have to try and manage
that resource to the best of our ability.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: What we are trying to do is to make sure that there is
not a concentration, just the opposite of what the Leader of the Opposition is
saying. We want to make sure there is not a very small concentration in one or
two or three parts of the Province. We want to make sure that it is properly
allocated around the Province in accordance with the principle of adjacency,
which is a principle which your government spoke to - you never followed, but
you spoke to it when you were in government - but we are, in fact, going to
implement it. We are acting, and we are doing everything we can, in the best
interest of the people of the Province.
The other thing you need to know - the people of the Province know - is that
two Fridays ago we came up with a very, very, very reasonable compromise in this
position. What we did was, we took the pilot project, we cut it in half, from
two years to one year, reduced it down, basically, to what -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the Premier to complete his answer quickly.
PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We took it down, which basically is a three-month pilot project. We said we
will have an independent committee oversee it and manage it, and then they will
make a recommendation. In other words, we took the decision out of our hands and
we put it into the hands of an independent committee, which would be approved by
the union and government, and then that would be followed. We cannot do any more
than that. That was a very reasonable position.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The Premier has not yet caught on, that one of the big problems is his own
credibility. Nobody believes him any more when he talks about anything related
to this.
Mr. Speaker, we will be introducing a private member's motion later today
that will ask government to withdraw the production quota system from the table
until consultations with fish harvesters take place, as was promised in writing
by the government.
I ask the Premier: If he is so confident that there is such strong support in
his caucus for this ill-conceived plan, will he permit a free vote on our motion
so that each member can send a direct message to their constituents as to where
they stand on this most important issue of the crab quotas?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, we abide by the rules of this House. If the hon. member opposite
wants to put a motion before this House, then it will be put before the House in
the normal course of business and it will be voted upon in the normal course. We
are not doing anything to prevent him from doing whatever he wants. Whatever
political games or maneuvers he wants to play, he can go right ahead and he can
do it. If he wants to do it, we will play by the rules of this House as we
always do.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.
MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The Minister of Fisheries has abused his position and thrown the crab
industry into crisis in a politically motivated attempt to benefit his own
district and some of the Premier's business buddies.
Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Human Resources, Labour and
Employment. What is your plan to deal with the serious problem that thousands of
plant workers are facing because of this government's stubborn attempt to
impose an ill-conceived raw material sharing plan?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, the government, through the Premier and the Minister of
Fisheries, has stated on a number of occasions that we will be there for the
plant workers.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
A question has been asked by the hon. the Member for Port de Grave. The Chair
has recognized the hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.
Colleagues, I ask you for your co-operation on both sides of the House.
The Chair recognizes the hon. the minister.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, the government, through the Premier and through the Minister of
Fisheries, have stated on a number of occasions that we will be there for the
plant workers if and when they are needed and a program is needed. Mr. Speaker,
we will be there for the plant workers. We are doing the number crunching. We
have the numbers in place now. As time progresses, we will do what we said we
would do; we will have a program in place for the plant workers.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.
MR. BUTLER: I guess, Mr. Speaker, at this point in time there is no plan.
The Premier said he is willing to see this season be lost, to get his way on
this issue. Thousands of people find themselves in a serious financial situation
and do not know where to look. I ask the new Minister of Labour and the new
minister responsible for income support if you can tell the people of this
Province - and ask your government to get their act together to see that no one
is denied the financial support they need because of this crisis in the crab
fishery?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I can only reiterate what we have said in
past, what the Premier has said, what the government has said, and what the
Minister of Fisheries has said: The plant workers will be taken care of. We will
be there for the plant workers in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador if
the fish harvesters do not go out and do the fishing; and, Mr. Speaker, that
remains to be seen at this point in time.
We know that the large boats have left the Province to go fishing, and land
fish in Nova Scotia, which is unfair to the people of the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador, the plant workers themselves, but, make no mistake
about it, we are there. We have the numbers done, we have the number crunching
done, and a plan will be put in place to take care of the plant workers in the
Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.
MR. BUTLER: Mr. Speaker, I ask the hon. member if he could provide this
hon. House with the dollar value of the numbers. I am sure they must have
something put in place for this program.
Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries has abused his position and thrown the
crab industry into crisis - I am sorry, wrong one, boys! My apologies, Mr.
Speaker, I picked up the wrong paper.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The Chair recognizes the Member for Port de Grave.
MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I guess, when you call upon a minister -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. BUTLER: Colleagues, I am recognizing the Member for Port de Grave
District.
MR. BUTLER: Mr. Speaker, I guess it gets a bit confusing when you call
upon a minister who was sworn in as the Minister of Labour and Human Resources
and the Status of Women and they can't get to their feet and you don't get
any answers. It becomes confusing what you are asking, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
Members of the House will know that they have every right to ask questions,
however, it is the government that decides who will give the response.
The Chair recognizes, again, the hon. the Member for Port de Grave District.
MR. BUTLER: We fully understand that, Mr. Speaker, because there are not
too many over there who answer any questions.
I ask the Minister of Human Resources, Labour, and Employment: What is your
plan to deal with the thousands of people in other sectors of the economy who
are being negatively impacted by the crisis this government has caused in the
fishery?
The Premier may be willing to lose the season, but these people, Mr. Speaker,
cannot afford it.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, what this government has committed to, and what this Premier has
committed to, is that we would be there for the plant workers in the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador.
Why I am answering questions, Mr. Speaker, of course, as in any job creation
program, when they were in administration and as we are in administration today,
the job creation programs are administered through the Department of Municipal
and Provincial Affairs, which this one will be. We have the numbers done and it
will be in the tens of millions of dollars which we will be committing to the
plant workers in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fortune Bay - Cape la Hune.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Sometimes, Mr. Speaker, in the House I am sure we all glib back and forth
across the hall. That is the way the political situation is. I don't find it
very amusing, because I have three questions here and they might be in the wrong
order. You cannot ask the three of them the one time. You have people laughing
because the member picked up the wrong question. I don't think that is called
for. It is not very nice, I don't think, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. LANGDON: Mr. Speaker, as mentioned earlier today, this is Municipal
Awareness Day. During the Estimates for the Department of Municipal and
Provincial Affairs, I was really surprised and couldn't believe the government
has cancelled a program called the water disinfectant program that was intended
for small rural communities that could not otherwise afford to upgrade and
replace chlorination systems.
Mr. Speaker, the government that I was part of put in millions of dollars to
start to address the problem. There are still more than 200 small rural
communities that are still on the boil order and cannot drink their water even
though some of them are charging residents more than $365 a year. My question to
the minister is, how can the government justify cancelling this program and
endangering the lives of these people in the communities?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I am quite - what is the right word, I wonder - amazed that the
former Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs would be fearmongering in
this form. Mr. Speaker, this department has a Municipal Capital Works Program,
we have the Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Program, we have the Multi-Year
Program. The Disinfection Assistance Program that he is talking about, yes,
funded water projects in the various communities in the Province of Newfoundland
and Labrador, and we still do it, Mr. Speaker. At this point in time, if there
is a situation, an emergency situation - as the Member for Grand Bank knows from
last year. If there is an emergency situation here we will work with the
municipalities, as we have always have done in the past, Mr. Speaker. If need
be, we will finance up to 100 per cent of those projects. I don't know why the
member is getting on with what he is getting on with.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune.
MR. LANGDON: Mr. Speaker, I am not trying to fearmonger anything. I asked
the minister that question during estimates and that was the answer I got. I am
very surprised that the program is still not there.
This government also cut back on the rate that was given to many of the
smaller communities to install new or upgrade existing water and sewer systems.
There were examples where the provincial government in the past picked up as
much as 90 per cent of the small municipality share. Now we see the government
is asking these small communities to pick up the full one-third of the cost of
the system.
My question to the minister is: Isn't this another example of government
turning its back on the most vulnerable municipalities in the Province, our
rural communities?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the former minister got that information.
The department now, as we now stand under the Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure
Program, will finance up to 70 per cent of the 66 per cent that the Province
will have. So, in actual fact, Mr. Speaker, the municipalities now have to come
up with 10 per cent or 20 per cent, as they have done in the past.
By the way, Mr. Speaker, the Municipal Capital Works Program, we finance 50
per cent of the projects. Under the Multi-Year Plan, Mr. Speaker, it is 50-50,
and the municipalities in this Province, the larger municipalities, fourteen
have taken advantage of that.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. J. BYRNE: The members opposite, Mr. Speaker, obviously do not
understand what they are talking about because under the Canada-Newfoundland
Infrastructure Program, to make it clearer for the members opposite, the feds
cover 33 per cent, the Province and the municipalities are supposed to come up
with 33 per cent, but we take 70 per cent of the 66 per cent. It is not hard
math.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
Under our time allocations, the Chair now will have to go the Member for
Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My question is for the Premier, who said on Friday he is prepared to lose an
entire crab season if he does not get his way on plant production quotas. Mr.
Speaker, the Dunne report said, at page 148: "...the claimed benefits of
individual raw material shares in fish processing have not been observed
anywhere because no such model has yet been used." They go on to say,
"...that it is worth trying on a cautious trial basis to determine which of
the claimed beneficial results will occur." But only, of course, when
three-quarters of the active processors agree and there is no substantive and
reasonable objections by plant workers and harvesters.
Now, Mr. Speaker, let me get this right. Is the Premier now saying that he is
willing to see this Province lose a whole crab fishing season in order for him
and the Minister of Fisheries to conduct an experiment, on a trial basis, to see
what the benefits are, despite the overwhelming objection to the plan which is
already not working in this Province?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi has been doing too many press
conferences with the Member for Exploits because they seem to act alike, think
alike and they practice the same politics. Basically, what he is trying to do is
to say - he said that my quote -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: - I prepared to lose the fishery if I did not get my
way. I did not say that, Mr. Speaker. Under no circumstances did I say that.
That is not what I said. The Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi is hanging around
with the Member for Exploits too long. He is getting just like him. He should
practice good politics here in this Province and be responsible and ask proper
questions. Give to me the words that I said exactly and I will give you an
answer, Sir.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. BARRETT: (Inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the Member for Bellevue if he would stand and withdraw the comment he
just made.
MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I withdraw and return at a later date.
MR. SPEAKER: I ask the member to withdraw his comment unequivocally,
without any commentary whatsoever. I ask the member, again, to withdraw his
comment.
MR. BARRETT: I withdraw, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi has time for another question.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Will the Premier not recognize that it is totally irresponsible on his part
to destroy an entire crab season at a cost of more than half a billion dollars
in revenue alone, and cause hardship to thousands of families in hundreds of
communities around the Province so he can conduct this experiment - because that
is what a pilot project is. Will he not acknowledge that his plan is not going
to be accepted and try to find another way to help the crab industry move
forward and thereby avoid the disaster that is sure to follow if he does not
change his mind?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, in the course of 365 days of the year in the government there
are hundreds of plans and hundreds of policies that are put in place. If this
government decided that every single time somebody who has a vested interest,
and not seeing them going forward, objects to those particular policies, and as
a result we do not proceed with those policies than the general public can just
run the government and we would not be here. We would serve no purpose.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
PREMIER WILLIAMS: We were elected to govern this Province. We take that
responsibility very seriously. We take leadership in this Province very
seriously. We have taken this project underway on the best possible advice that
we can get. The fact that something has not been tried anywhere else in world -
there is certainly no reason not to try it, but raw material sharing is
certainly being tried in this Province. The principles have been looked at in
other jurisdictions. We have followed the recommendations of the Dunne report
and we are proceeding with that recommendation.
Thank you very much.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune; time for a
very brief question and an equally brief answer.
MR. LANGDON: Mr. Speaker, the NLFM President, Mr. Brett, has suggested
that the proposed federal gas initiative to the municipalities should involve a
formula that would share the first 10 per cent equally among all municipalities
and 90 per cent should be divided by population. The City of St. John's
totally opposes this and wants the full 100 per cent to be divided based on
population. The City of St. John's here is acting like the Ontario's of the
world, having no time for small jurisdictions.
I ask the minister: Is he going to stand behind the Federation and support
the hundreds of small communities in rural Newfoundland and Labrador that would
benefit greatly from the federal initiative?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I think the smaller municipalities in the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador know that I stand behind them and have been standing
behind them for the past eighteen months.
With respect to the gas tax, Mr. Speaker, we are still in bilateral
negotiations with the federal government on this. We do not have all the
criteria in place. We do not have the conditions that the federal government
will be putting on the gas tax and how it is going to be implemented. As I said
on Open Line the other day, where he probably got his question, Mr. Speaker,
that once we have all the information in place we will be putting a formula in
place that will be fair to all the municipalities in the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador, both rural and urban.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The time assigned to Question Period has expired.
Presenting Reports -
MR. PARSONS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised by the hon. the Opposition
House Leader.
MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Approximately two weeks ago the Chair made a ruling that the Premier had made
an unparliamentary remark, and the Premier gave somewhat of a speech in the
course of withdrawing. I brought it to your attention at that time that
withdrawals of unparliamentary remarks are supposed to be, under the rules of
this House, unequivocal and without comment. I know that Your Honour made no
bones about that today in the case of the Member for Bellevue, and I am just
wondering when we might expect a ruling regarding the Premier's
unparliamentary remarks.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
There is no point of order.
The Chair will make the ruling when the Chair deems it to be appropriate.
Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. PARSONS: (Inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We had a comment from the Chair today, just before Your Honour ruled that the
galleries were to be cleared and closed for the day. Your Honour made a comment
regarding one individual in the galleries, that he should be removed from the
galleries and would be kept from the galleries for a period of ten days. I
believe that was the comment of Your Honour.
I am just wondering if Your Honour might enlighten us, as members of the
House who are supposed to be aware of rules here, when that rule might come into
effect, where we might find it, because it is the first that we have heard that
there has been such a ten-day rule that would be imposed for anyone who was
removed from the gallery.
MR. SPEAKER: It isn't usual that the Speaker participates in a debate;
however, under the rules in which the Speakers across this country operate, the
Speaker has very wide discretionary powers. In Legislatures, for example, in the
Province of Quebec, the president of the National Assembly regularly will
suspend members not only for ten sitting days but sometimes indefinitely. It is
also done in Ontario. It is done in all provinces in Australia and in New
Zealand. Therefore, the Speaker is well within his rights to make the ruling
today, and did so based on precedents in other jurisdictions.
Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: If the point of order relates to the decisions of the Chair,
I cannot accept it.
The hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. PARSONS: I guess, given your ruling, Your Honour, there is not much
point in asking any questions here. I thought this was, again, a democracy
whereby if someone needed some information or direction we would be allowed to
ask.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
There is no point of order.
The member knows that, if he wishes to challenge the decision of the Chair,
there is a methodology to do that. I would certainly recommend that he be
familiar with the rules. The Chair has absolute authority to ban one person or
two persons or a group of persons from the gallery at any time, for a cause.
Present Reports by Standing and Select Committees.
Tabling of Documents.
Tabling of Documents
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury
Board.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I table the Annual Report 2004 of the Newfoundland and Labrador Liquor
Corporation.
MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion.
Notices of Motion
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I give notice that I will, on tomorrow, ask leave to introduce a bill
entitled,
An Act To Amend The Natural Products Marketing Act And The Farm
Practices Protection Act. (Bill 2)
I want to give notice today, according to Motion 5 and Motion 6 on the Order
Paper, that the House not adjourn at 5:30 this evening nor at 10:00 this evening
either.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.
MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Pursuant to Standing Order 63.(3), I give notice of the following private
member's motion to be debated on Wednesday:
WHEREAS government has not met the conditions outlined in recommendation 9.12
of the Dunne report prior to implementing raw material sharing in the crab
industry of this Province; and
WHEREAS in a letter to fish harvesters dated April 21, 2004, the Minister of
Fisheries and Aquaculture promised consultations before raw material sharing
would be implemented in this Province; and
WHEREAS the 2005 crab fishery in Newfoundland and Labrador, valued at $500
million to the provincial economy, is in jeopardy;
THEREFORE
BE IT RESOLVED that this House of Assembly calls on government to
drop the raw material sharing system for this year and do the proper
consultations with harvesters and processors before bringing the plan forward
again.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury
Board.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I give notice that I will, on tomorrow, ask leave to introduce a bill
entitled,
An Act To Revise The Law Respecting Smoking In Public Places And The
Workplace. (Bill 20)
I also give notice that I will, on tomorrow, ask leave to introduce a bill
entitled,
An Act Respecting The Practice Of Medicine In The Province. (Bill 21)
I give notice that I will, on tomorrow, ask leave to introduce a bill
entitled,
An Act To Amend The Liquor Corporation Act. (Bill 18)
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Conservation.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I give notice that I will, on tomorrow, ask leave to introduce a bill
entitled,
An Act To Amend The Wildlife Act. (Bill 13)
MR. SPEAKER: Further notices of motions.
Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given.
Petitions.
Petitions
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise to present a petition on behalf of residents in the communities of La
Scie, Woodstock, Nippers Harbour, in the district of Baie Verte, because their
member, for some reason, does not seem to want to present it on their behalf,
even though it has been presented, Mr. Speaker. It is about the crab fishery
again, and basically it is most telling in terms of a couple of the whereases.
WHEREAS in the Speech from the Throne last year, government stated that it
would consult before it acted, and, when it did consult, that consultation would
be inclusive; and
WHEREAS harvesters and plant workers have clearly not been consulted and not
included in this process.
They are calling upon the government, as other petitions have, to live to the
written promise of April 21, last year, which was that there would be a full
consultation of all the stakeholders, the union, the harvesters, the plant
workers, before the government ever really seriously thought about implementing
raw material sharing or production quotas - a promise, Mr. Speaker, that these
petitioners from the district of Baie Verte....
The Premier might be slick with words, but, I can tell you, he has not
convinced anybody in the district of Baie Verte, who signed this petition, that
he has done anything other than broken a promise, and a promise that was in
writing, Mr. Speaker, a promise in writing, signed by the Minister of Fisheries.
When asked about it last week: What about your letter? Why didn't you do the
consultation? Oh, it wasn't important, he said, I just gave them that letter
because we had to get the fishery going last year. So, he gave them a letter to
stop an impasse last year and obviously, by inference, he was saying: We had no
intention of doing this consultation.
In questions and answers today, you find that many people are finding a lack
of credibility at this point in time with anything that the Premier or the
Minister of Fisheries or anyone speaking for the government says with respect to
this crab harvesting issue.
Mr. Speaker, clearly what the people want is this: They want the Premier to
be something other than flippant and arrogant when he says: Well, if the summer
has to be lost, I guess it has to be lost - quoted right in The Telegram
for everybody to see.
When I say that, as the member, he says: Oh, no, I didn't say that. Again,
he brings into question his own credibility because people who read the paper
saw that. People who saw it on television saw that, when he said: If the season
has to be lost, too bad.
Just like when Minister Efford said: Do you want it, Mr. Williams? Do you
want it, Premier? Take it or leave it. Now, John Efford spent weeks going around
saying: I didn't say take it or leave it, but everybody knew what he said; and
when the Premier said, if the summer has to be lost then the summer has to be
lost - because we say that means, if the summer has to be lost, too bad as far
as the Premier is concerned. He is saying, I didn't say that, but everybody
knows he said that. Everybody heard the words. Everybody saw the body language.
Everybody saw the real arrogance into it, and these petitioners are saying: Stop
being arrogant. (Inaudible). Do the right thing.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The member's allotted time has expired.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Further petitions.
The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I also have a petition from residents of the communities of La Scie and Shoe
Cove in Baie Verte. These petitioners are concerned about what the government
has done with respect to the imposition of production quotas. The petitioners
actually say they pray and call upon the House to urge government to only impose
production quotas if it is agreed upon by the FFAW and the processors
recommended by the Dunne report.
Mr. Speaker, the Premier and others opposite continue to say they are
following the recommendations of the Dunne report, but this is absolutely and
totally not the case. It is not the case because the Dunne report, Commissioner
Dunne - whom we all know as a long-standing fisheries bureaucrat, he was the
Director for Newfoundland for Fisheries and Oceans for many, many years, an
expert in this industry. He would not recommend that the government do what they
are doing, Mr. Speaker, in the face of the kind of opposition that we have seen
every single day in this Province, shove this down their throats and impose a
system on people that they do not want. What he said, Mr. Speaker, is that there
is no - if three-quarters of the processors are supportive of such a system and
if there are no substantive and reasonable objections to the fish harvesters and
plant workers then it should be done on a cautious and trial basis.
Mr. Speaker, caution and a trial basis is totally opposite of what this
government is doing. They are throwing caution to the winds and, in fact, are
prepared to do, as the Premier said - although he seemed to deny it today - that
he did not really say that we are prepared to lose a season, but what I have
quoted: If the summer has to be lost, it has to be lost and the fishermen have
to understand that. Now, there is nothing clearer than that, Mr. Speaker, but
something has to be understood here. We are not dealing with the NHL losing a
season of hockey, Mr. Speaker. We are talking about the livelihood of thousands
of families in hundreds of communities in this Province and a tremendous amount
of hardship that is going to be caused if this industry is lost. That is exactly
what is going to happen, Mr. Speaker, because this government is so adamant that
they are going to have their way, despite the fact that the fishermen and the
fish harvesters see this as turning the clock back fifty or seventy-five years
to the old system where they have no control, their bargaining power is lost and
they are back in the clutches of the fish merchants once again.
Mr. Speaker, I am surprised that this Premier, in the face of that kind of
objection, is prepared to insist on this production quota system at the cost to
this economy of what appears to be half a billion dollars of the export value of
the fish, plus the consequential loss of UI and other things that go with it. We
are looking at a huge amount of hardship imposed upon the people of rural
Newfoundland as a result of this government's intransigence, as a result of
their insistence on carrying out this plan, which is not supported -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The member's allotted time has expired.
Further petitions.
The hon. the Member for Grand Bank.
MS FOOTE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to present a petition on behalf of my constituents and, of
course, it has to do with the health care facility that is under construction in
Grand Bank.
Mr. Speaker, I have spoken in the House before, presented petitions on this
particular matter, and today I am presenting a petition on behalf of residents
of Fortune and Grand Bank who have signed the petition. On the weekend I was
presented with a 3,000 - in fact, in excess of 3,000 names on a petition from
six communities that actually use the health care facility in Grand Bank.
When we look at the health care facility as it is today in Grand Bank, I
think the consensus would have to be, from anyone who has visited there, and
certainly from the previous government in which I was a member, that it needed
to be badly replaced. It is not a hospital. I have repeated this time and time
again, both for the Member for Burin-Placentia West and for the Minister of
Finance and the Acting Minister of Health, that it is a clinic that we have in
Grand Bank with holding beds only. In fact, you cannot stay there any longer
than twenty-four hours. I think anybody who has had a heart attack would know
how important it is to have such a facility there in good condition so that when
you need to be stabilized before being sent on to the regional hospital in
Burin, there is a place that you can go to get the proper care in order to be
stabilized.
Part of the health care facility, of course, is the seniors' home, the Blue
Crest seniors' home which today is caring for people who require acute care
Levels III and IV. It was never intended for that. It was, in fact, intended for
those who require acute care Levels I and II. Today, what we are seeing are
employees in that facility trying to care for those patients who require a lot
of care and having to do it in a facility that was not meant to accommodate
these particular patients. It is not good for the residents and it certainly is
not good for the employees there, and it is not good for the families who go to
visit them, to see their loved ones trying to exist under such trying
circumstances.
When the Leader of the Opposition today said that the Premier has lost any
credibility with respect to the crab fishery in the Province, I can tell you,
that his lack of credibility goes a lot deeper than just the crab fishery. On
the weekend I heard from any number of people, who just find it difficult to
understand how the leader of the government - who is, in fact, the Premier for
all of us - could make a promise during an election and then decide he is not
going to follow through on that promise. In fact, having promised it on three
occasions, they firmly believed that he would deliver. Today, of course, we see
that is not the case. We have $3.5 million that has been spent on a facility
where all that is standing down in Grand Bank is the steel, and they are hopeful
- they are still hopeful, believe it or not - that this government will come
through and that the Premier will live up to his promise to, in fact, construct
that health care facility.
Again, what it is, it is a combination of a clinic and a seniors home, both
of which exist in Grand Bank today, need to be replaced, particularly the old
cottage hospital. If you were to walk in there and see the condition, you would
all have to agree that it requires a new facility. It isn't good to even look
at trying to do something with the existing facility because it would take more
money to try and repair that one, to renovate it, than to proceed with the one
that is presently under construction - or, I should say, should be under
construction, because the government, in its lack of wisdom, decided not to
continue with that health care facility. Even though it was a promise made by
the Premier, and now we have the president of the local PC association in the
district calling on the Premier -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The member's allotted time has expired.
MS FOOTE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.
MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I stand today to present a petition from residents ranging from New Harbour
to Bay Roberts regarding an issue that I raised here in this House before, and
that is the two people in Carbonear: Mildred and Clovia Baker. They are in
wheelchairs, they are fed through feeding tubes, they require assistance
breathing, and cannot preform most tasks that we take for granted. A short time
ago, the other night, a neighbour had to come out and turn up the heat for them.
The two ladies were cold and left unattended.
Mr. Speaker, a part of this petition says:
WHEREAS the twenty-four-hour home care that is essential to these people once
existed and is now taken away; and
WHEREAS this twenty-four-hour home care is essential to the well-being of
Mildred and Clovia Baker;
We, the undersigned, request that government reinstate twenty-four-hour home
care for Mildred and Clovia Baker of Carbonear.
Mr. Speaker, this is a very serious issue that has some great concern for a
lot of people in my district. Everywhere I go in Carbonear, Harbour Grace, or
the surrounding areas, people are asking me: Will you ask the government to
please intervene, to reinstate to those two ladies who have lost five hours a
day?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. SWEENEY: Mr. Speaker, some of the members opposite may find this
funny, but I will guarantee you that the communities in my district do not find
this funny. They do not find it funny.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask members on both sides for their co-operation.
The Chair recognizes the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.
MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Whatever district I was in, I would be speaking for these ladies because
there is an injustice done here. Every other person we are aware of, in this
Province, who is on a feeding tube or breathing assisted, is receiving twelve
hours of care a day. Here are these two ladies who are shortchanged five hours
by this government.
I have had two ministers come back to me, and the last minister who responded
to me said: Maybe other alternatives can be made - referring to putting them
into a home, separating a mother and daughter.
I find nothing funny. There has to be some compassion and, surely heavens,
with all the money that is being spent on the extra security and even the
lunches here for the RNC, we can find a few dollars to help those two ladies to
receive the dignity and care they are entitled to. The five hours a day is a
pittance to what is being spent right here in this Province right now just in
security. This is no joking matter.
I ask the Minister of Human Resources, Labour and Employment, who stood last
week and gave such a great speech on women's rights, to take it upon herself,
for these two women who live in Carbonear, who live unattended, and who need the
care. I ask her, would she do that?
I ask the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, who stood today and
answered questions for the Minister of Human Resources, Labour and Employment,
if he would take it upon himself and speak to his seatmate there, when he comes
back in, the Acting Minister of Health.
This is a very serious issue, and the whole community out there is very, very
concerned about what is happening to these two ladies. It is inconceivable that
they would be cut five hours a day, left alone, not able to turn up the
thermostat in their house when it gets cold, not able to answer the door when a
delivery of medical supplies comes.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The member's allotted time has expired.
MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I will be back. I have a lot of other names (inaudible) petitions coming on
this issue.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune.
MR. LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Today I present a petition on behalf of the community of Harbour Breton,
looking for support so that the portion of FPI's quota that has been
traditionally processed in Harbour Breton over the last forty years remain
there.
Mr. Speaker, I had an opportunity over the weekend, at one of the three
functions that I attended, to meet with an action committee in Harbour Breton.
Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that the community is going through a crisis. One
of the guys there - and I mentioned the word before - who is co-chairing this
action committee, says it is more than a crisis; it is a disaster. Really, in a
sense, what is happening is a financial disaster. People who had been used to
making - they and their spouses, between them - probably $30 a hour, all of a
sudden, without any chance to prepare anything whatsoever, find themselves
making $6.25 an hour. There is no way that anybody in this House, or anywhere
across the Province, can adjust that quick to the situation that is here.
These people in Harbour Breton think the same way that I do. I should not be
presenting petitions here today on behalf of Harbour Breton. Do you know why?
Because FPI should still be in Harbour Breton processing, or if they are not
there than their quota that has been traditionally done in Newfoundland and
Labrador should remain with the community. There is no doubt about that.
Mr. Speaker, them, like me - when I see a comment being made by Mr. Rowe from
the FPI - and who is behind this? I am convinced more so than ever, with every
bit of fervour in my body, that these are the main people who are driving the
crab situation. Make no bones about it, these are the people who are pushing it.
This is what he said, Mr. Speaker. Rowe said: FPI is making adjustments to meet
the challenge but the strong Canadian dollar and competition from low cost
producing companies like China remain a major concern. Just look at the last
part of it: from low cost producing companies like China remain a major concern.
Can you tell me how many secondary processing plants that FPI has producing
in the Province right now? It is not Harbour Breton. It is not Fortune. It is
only Marystown, and I would like to be able to ask Mr. Rowe to provide the
information. He is not forthcoming to the IS committee with a lot of it. I would
like to ask him, how many million pounds of fish that was allocated to FPI, to
be processed in Newfoundland and Labrador plants this year, has been processed
in China? Do you know what? You will find more than enough to keep Harbour
Breton for 350 people for fifty-two weeks of the year and also keep the people
in Fortune producing for fifty-two weeks of the year. That is the situation, and
he has the unmitigated gall to say: You know, competition from China remains a
major concern. Go down to Costco here, Mr. Speaker, and look at the fish
products that are down there in Costco. Do you know what? They are Newfoundland
products, but do you know where they are packed to? In China, at very low wages,
and our people here are to suffer the humility of having their community
(inaudible) and that is not right, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The member's allotted time has expired.
Orders of the Day.
I am sorry. Is the Member for Twillingate & Fogo rising on a petition?
MR. REID: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the Member for Twillingate & Fogo.
MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I, too, would like to get up and present a petition today on behalf of the
fish harvesters and plant workers in the Province who are calling upon
government to remove this production quota scheme from the table until the
Premier and the minister do what the Dunne report suggested, and that would be
only implement production quotas if and when it was agreed to by the fish
harvesters and the FFAW in the Province.
I have been watching this debate unfold now for over two months and it is
apparent, I think to everybody in the Province, that the vast majority of people
are opposed to what the Premier is doing here. What I am saying, Mr. Speaker, is
the vast majority of the people in the Province all agree that this should be
taken off the table and only implemented if and when the fish harvesters agree
to it, as was recommended by Mr. Dunne and as was promised by the Premier and
the Minister of Fisheries.
Mr. Speaker, as I said, the vast majority of fish harvesters are opposed to
it. The vast majority of plant workers are opposed to this production quota. In
fact, the majority of the fish processors in the Province, if you want to do the
math, are opposed to production quotas, yet this government continues to push it
down the throats of those who are so adversely affected by it.
Mr. Speaker, there are a number of individuals who have held key positions in
this Province, who also have voiced their opinions, as of late, regarding this
subject. One was the chief adviser that the Premier last year hired to go to
Ottawa to speak and to listen on behalf of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians;
one, Mr. Bill Rowe, who was paid handsomely by the Premier to do his job in
Ottawa who recently, as late as Saturday, came out in The Telegram and
said that the Premier should back away from this proposal and negotiate, or at
least consult with the fish harvesters in the Province at the end of this
season.
Mr. Speaker, Mr. Jim Morgan, a previous Tory Cabinet Minister, also spoke out
against the Premier on this and said that he should withdraw from the table
until he has consulted with the fish harvesters. Mr. Tom Hickey, also a previous
Tory Cabinet Minister, also has spoken out loudly and said that the Premier and
the minister should take this from the table until it is discussed with the
fishermen. Mr. Loyola Hearn, in the paper this weekend, also said that what the
Premier was doing was not right and that he should withdraw this. Well, the only
one in his caucus, I should say, who spoke out publicly, the Member for
Placentia & St. Mary's - the only one on that side of the floor who spoke
out was told that he could no longer be a member of their party because he had
the intestinal fortitude to stand in the caucus and speak that which was
presented to him by his constituents, and for that he will be forever banned
from this party.
Mr. Speaker, what I find ironic is that all of these individuals that I just
mentioned had close ties to the Tory Party in this Province and they are all
saying that this should be withdrawn. I ask why -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The member's allotted time has expired.
MR. REID: By leave to clue up, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Leave to conclude?
MR. E. BYRNE: By leave.
MR. SPEAKER: Leave has been granted.
MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I thank the Government House Leader for it.
What I am saying, Mr. Speaker, is you have all of these affluent Tory people
who have now spoken up and asked the Premier and the minister to take this off
the table. My question for the members opposite: If that is the case, why do
they sit so quietly and passively and not raise the issue publicly and ask the
Premier why he will not back down, do what he Dunne report recommended, remove
this until he has had further consultations with the stakeholders in the
industry?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Orders of the Day
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Orders of the Day, Order 2. I move that the House resolve itself into
Committee of Supply and consider resolution and Bill 4, respecting the granting
of main supply to Her Majesty.
MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that I do now leave the Chair for
the House to resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on a supply bill.
Is it the pleasure of the House that I do now leave the Chair for the House
to resolve itself into a Committee of Whole on said bill?
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.
MR. SPEAKER: All those against, nay'.
Carried.
On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr.
Speaker left the Chair.
Committee of the Whole
CHAIR (Fitzgerald): Order, please!
The committee is ready to continue debate on the Estimates of Supply.
The hon. the Member for Terra Nova.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. ORAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I just want to take a few minutes to talk about this Budget again. Actually,
I was speaking just Thursday past and, of course, time ran out and I had a few
more things I wanted to talk about. In fact, I had a few more positive things
that I wanted to talk about in this Budget. Actually, last Thursday I found it
very difficult to speak because there were so many interruptions. So I am hoping
that the other side of the House are going to give me an opportunity to speak in
peace and have my opportunity to talk, as I said, about the positive things in
this Budget.
First of all, Mr. Chairman, one of the things that we talked about the other
day - I started talking about the money we are going to put into Transportation
and Works and how the Budget was addressing Transportation and Works. I was very
pleased this year to see more money in road work.
Of course, as I was saying on Thursday past, I have driven across this
Island, and I am sure a number of members here have driven across this Province,
and found the roads to be sometimes intolerable. It is unfortunate that the
previous administration had left the roads in a terrible condition, but I am
glad today that this administration is willing to put some funds into the
highways to try and make improvements to the highway situation in this Province.
It was just last summer, in fact, that I spoke about this again, that myself
and my family drove across the Province in our motor home. I think somebody made
some comment about the fact that we did own a motor home. I thought it was very
ironic. I really wanted to say to the hon. Leader of the Opposition, who
actually questioned me on the motor home, that it is for sale and maybe if he is
planning on retiring soon I can get him a good deal on that. Just a little bit
of levity there. I am sure I can do what I can to give him a good deal.
We drove across the Province and we found the roads to be -
AN HON. MEMBER: Make sure he pays the taxes.
MR. ORAM: Yes, we will make sure he pays the taxes on that.
We did drive across the Island and we found the roads to be, in some places,
very difficult to drive over.
The government realizes that we cannot fix all the roads today and we cannot
fix all the roads this year, but we do realize, Mr. Chair, that we have to make
an effort. We have made an effort because, of course, we are going to put $30
million into the provincial roads improvement program. A large portion of that
$30 million will be spent in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. We have a
commitment to rural Newfoundland and Labrador, we have a positive commitment to
rural Newfoundland and Labrador. Even when members on the opposite side try to
put a spin on what we are doing and try to talk about the negatives that we are
trying to do and try to talk about the fact that we don't care about rural
Newfoundland and Labrador, let me assure the people of this Province today, that
we do care about rural Newfoundland and Labrador and we are going to prove that,
of course, with the work we are going to do in this Province through this Budget
on the roads.
Another thing, Mr. Chair, that comes up from time to time in my district is
the ferry system. Of course, you know, we have a ferry system within this
Province that really needs some work, it needs some money put into it. I am glad
that the Province has allocated $500,000 to plan the implementation of a
provincial vessel replacement strategy. That is a positive initiative for
Newfoundland and Labrador. I am quite pleased that we are looking at that,
because it is difficult, Mr. Chair, when you look at the fact that many people
in my district have to travel to St. Brendan's and they have to use a ferry.
It is their own means of transportation. There are times when it is difficult to
get across there, more specifically in the winter time and times like that. This
government realizes that we need to make a commitment to ferries, not only in
St. Brendan's but across the Province. I am very happy, today, that we are
going to do that and we are going to make things happen in a positive way as
well.
The Province has also seen the fact that we need improvements to our Province's
ferry terminals, and $1 million in new funding is earmarked for capital
improvements to the Province's ferry terminals. That is a very important
aspect as well, because not only do people from this Province use ferries. Of
course, there are many people in this Province who use ferries every day, but
there are also tourists who want to use the ferry facilities. They need to be
able to go in and be able to sit in, maybe, a terminal and be able to find out
information about where they are going in this Province. This all ties in with
tourism and our plan for rural Newfoundland and Labrador, the positive plan that
we have for rural Newfoundland and Labrador.
I also want to talk about, just for a few moments, the Municipal and
Provincial Affairs strategy. Municipal and Provincial Affairs in this Province
is a very important department, of course, in government. We have a minister who
cares about rural Newfoundland and Labrador. I must say, and I think all members
would agree, that whenever you approach the Minister of Municipal Affairs,
whenever you approach that department, they are very approachable. They realize
that there are many challenges that face - again, I talk about rural
Newfoundland and Labrador because it is where my district is, the District of
Terra Nova, but as soon as you approach that department, automatically, they try
to do what they can for your district. I appreciate that today, and I appreciate
government putting more and more funds into capital works programs that need to
be taken care of in this Province.
So many times we forget about the fact that there are many communities that
really do not even have water and sewer in this Province; they really don't. I
went to a community in my district back during the campaign, during the election
time, and there was a community where they were using five-gallon buckets under
eavestroughs to try to get enough water to be able to wash during the day. I
thought, how sad.
I am very pleased today that we have made strides in that community alone in
trying to devise a plan to be able to provide water for that community. We are
working on that program right now. Of course, because of the money in this
Budget, the Province's share of $46.5 million, this brings the total value of
this year's capital works program to $83 million. Those type of initiatives,
those type of dollars, are what we need for rural Newfoundland and Labrador
communities and all communities, Mr. Chairman. As I said, I am very, very
pleased that we are doing things like that.
I just noticed as well, Mr. Chair, it was so funny, when I was speaking on
Thursday, we were talking about the fact that I own a motorhome. Big deal! I
think one of the members opposite talked about the fact: What about the people
in Harbour Breton, and what about the people in these other areas who are
finding it very difficult?
I can sympathize with those people today; I really can. I remember days when
I had to depend on trying to find ten weeks work in order to get enough stamps
to survive through the winter. Absolutely, I remember those days. It was very
difficult times, and we found it very difficult. In fact, I remember, Mr. Chair,
days when myself and my wife, at the end of the week - we would be going through
our waiting period, because you always had a two-week waiting period before you
would get any money, and then you would have to wait another two weeks before
you get any money. I remember going to the local merchant, the local store
there, and asking if I could charge a few groceries just to get us through. I
remember those days myself. That is not something that I can talk about that,
oh, somebody else may have lived through, just somebody else. I understand what
they are saying. I understand where they are coming from, because I have lived
that way as well. It is not easy. It is a hard way to live, but I can tell you
that we, as a government, intend to do something positive for this Province. We
have already made announcements and we have already tried to work with Harbour
Breton in trying to find a solution to their problem, and many other communities
within this Province.
We were very fortunate, Mr. Chair, to be able to pull ourselves, I guess, out
of that situation that we were in, myself and my wife, and get ourselves
involved in a business that the people supported and that we did very well with.
I am very appreciative of the people of this Province for that, and I am very
appreciative today that we can do positive things to help people.
In social investment this year, we are going to allocate $1 million to
increase income support benefits for couples without children, and single
individuals. These clients have not received an increase in benefits for four
years. Now, the first thing I have heard since we have announced that we are
going to put a $1 million increase in is: Oh, it is not enough. You are not
doing enough. You are not going to do enough.
The fact of the matter is that we are doing something. It was four years
before anything was done for these people, and we are going to try and we are
going to put something in place that will help people. It may only be $1
million. It may only be a few dollars a month, but at least it is a start. We
are going to take that and make people realize that we do care about the social
needs that are involved in this Province.
Also, we have a new Stay In School Incentive Allowance that will be
established. A total of $600,000 is provided in this Budget to help offset the
loss of child benefits for families receiving income support, and to encourage
youth to complete high school.
In my district, Mr. Chair, I can tell you that there are some schools where
the dropout rate is phenomenal. Very many students, you know, their families
just do not have the money, and a lot of times they find themselves in Grade 10,
even Grade 9, quitting school and going to work because it is very difficult for
them to survive. Will this fix everything for those students? Absolutely not,
but this is a start. We are talking about putting money into a young person's
life and into a young person's career. The first thing that the young people
have to do, of course, we have to encourage them to finish high school because
they cannot go any further unless they finish high school first. This is a great
incentive in this Budget this year. Again, I think, and I cannot say for sure
because I have not done the research, but I would assume that this, again, would
probably be something that rural Newfoundland and Labrador citizens will
probably use more than anybody else. I am just assuming that, and I think again
this is very positive.
We are also providing $6.2 million to the Student Investment and
Opportunities Corporation with a target to increase participation of youth at
risk from 7 per cent to 50 per cent within three years.
We are reinvesting $2 million over three years in employment and career
programming to direct more services to income support clients. Another positive
initiative for the most vulnerable people in society, Mr. Chair.
Budget 2005 also contains an $80,000 allocation to increase funding to eight
women centres for the second year in a row. We realize today that society, such
as it is, everything is not perfect, of course. Life is not perfect. Some people
have a very difficult time, and many women are vulnerable to what happens in
society. There are all sorts of issues that affect women.
CHAIR: Order, please!
I remind the hon. Member for Terra Nova that his speaking time has expired.
MR. ORAM: By leave, just for a second, to clue up, Mr. Chair?
CHAIR: Does the member have leave?
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.
CHAIR: The hon. member, by leave.
MR. ORAM: Thank you.
As I was saying, the fact of the matter is, we are putting money into this
very serious issue in terms of women's issues and children's issues, and we
believe, as a government, these are important initiatives.
I could go on and on about the positive things in this Budget, Mr. Chair,
but, of course, time will not permit me. I just want to say to the people of
Newfoundland and Labrador today: Hold firm with this government. We are going to
help you. We are going to make things positive happen in this Province.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank.
MS FOOTE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I just listened to the Member for Terra Nova go on about the positive
initiatives in the Budget. The irony in all of this, of course, is that I would
assume they got their marching orders from the Premier, because I remember
hearing the Premier, on the Open Line show, talking about coming back from
somewhere on a flight and how he had to take out the Budget and read it again.
It was such a good document that he really felt like patting himself on the
back. So, I would expect they all got their marching orders, because he was so
disappointed he was not hearing from the people throughout Newfoundland and
Labrador about what a wonderful Budget this was, that he really could not
understand it. And, lo and behold, within a matter of twenty-four hours on the
Open Line show the following morning, you had three, four, five members of the
government calling in to talk about the wonderful Budget the government had
brought down. Of course, we just heard the same thing now from the Member for
Terra Nova.
He goes on and on about what they are doing for rural Newfoundland and
Labrador, and all I can think about is all of the people out there who are
hurting today in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. In fact, when he talked about
how he understood the hardships, how he can remember a time when he and his wife
really did not know where they were going to find the next meal, how they had to
get help from someone else, and how proud he was today that he has been able to
make it, and that he owns a car and he owns a truck and he owns a motorhome.
What I do not understand is that if he has gone through these hardships, then
why can't he relate to the fish harvesters and to their families. Why is it he
is not standing up and taking a stand like the Member for Placentia & St.
Mary's did on behalf of his constituents and others who live in rural
Newfoundland and Labrador? If he has such an understanding and appreciation for
difficult times, then why isn't he among those on this side, and like his
former colleague, who had the nerve to stand, speak up and speak out on behalf
of his constituents? It is hard to understand how someone, who says he
understands and has gone through such hardships, can now turn a blind eye to
those in Newfoundland and Labrador who are feeling pain, who do not know where
they are going to find the next meal, who are wondering where they are going to
go to work, who are looking at their families, looking at their children,
wondering if they are going to have to take them out of their schools and move
them to Alberta or some other part of our country.
Mr. Chair, how the Member for Terra Nova can go on and on and suggest that he
understands, but then fails to represent those very people who are asking him to
look at how they are having to survive or trying to survive and then just turn a
blind eye to them, I think it is disrespectful of people who live in rural
Newfoundland and Labrador, and what it says to me is that he really does not
understand and does not have an appreciation for how difficult these people are
finding it.
It is funny, because we talk about the Premier and the Premier's
credibility and how when he gave an ultimatum to the Member for Placentia &
St. Mary's, it was either going to be the Premier or the member sitting at the
table but not both of them. You know, such a statement just smacks of someone
who is being so childish, to suggest that it is either him or me, instead of
having a discussion, sitting down and trying to iron out your differences. At
the end of the day the Premier lacks credibility, not only because of that
position he took but on a number of positions; certainly, with respect to health
care, the position he took when it came to the health care facility in Grand
Bank.
Here we are seeing a Budget brought down, again with no commitment to
continue with that facility. When I look at the petitions that have come across
my desk and that of my colleague for Bellevue, people who are asking for the
government to live up to commitments that were made by the previous
administration. In fact, a lot of the good things that they talk about that they
did in the Budget were things that the previous government initiated. Now, they
want to take credit for continuing on with them. It is only right and proper
that you should do so. It is about time that you also continued on with the
health care facility in Grand Bank, a replacement facility, no new services,
just a replacement facility.
The same with the CT scanner for the Burin Peninsula. The Member for
Burin-Placentia West should be standing and asking for it, instead of applauding
when the Minister of Health said, you can go to Clarenville, it is only a
two-week waiting period, ignore the fact that the roads are closed for days at a
time and you may not be able to get there.
There are so many things happening in rural Newfoundland and Labrador that
this government is responsible for and most of them are negative. When I look at
people who are finding it hard to make ends meet, look at this government
bringing in $25 million worth of fees - a death certificate today, for instance,
costs $25. A birth certificate you pay for, now you have to pay for a death
certificate, so they get you coming and going. You look at drivers' licences,
you look at vehicle registration - the fees for an ambulance have gone up. Of
course, when you look at ambulance fees it affects the most vulnerable, because,
primarily, it is our seniors who need to access ambulances, and these people are
on fixed incomes. Still, this is a government that says they are conscientious,
that they care about seniors, that they care about people. Well, they have yet
to show it. I have yet to see the human side of the Premier, any kind of
understanding for what people on fixed incomes have to go through, people who
are trying to make ends meet.
Of course, we talk about rural Newfoundland and Labrador and the wonderful
vision that they campaigned on. Where is the vision today? We have strategies,
we have plans, but nothing concrete, nothing that anyone in rural Newfoundland
can look to and say: We are going to benefit from that initiative by this
government. They have yet to do anything to make a difference in rural
Newfoundland and Labrador.
One of the crab fisherman said to me today: Well, the Premier is going to get
his way because he is going to turn all of rural Newfoundland and Labrador into
a museum. So, yes, it will be good for the tourism industry all right. It will
only be the tourists who are going there because there will not be anyone living
there other than those who get a few weeks work at $6 an hour during the
summertime offering tours. These are people who made their living in rural
Newfoundland and Labrador fishing, working, trying to make ends meet. It is not
an easy way to make a living, but they do it. We all benefit from it because
these are new dollars that go back into the economy. This is not recycled money.
These are new dollars that they bring into the economy of this Province. Of
course, we all get to benefit and they get to go out on the ocean and do the
hard work on behalf of all of us.
Mr. Chair, when you look at any member on the government side trying to say
that they are making a difference in rural Newfoundland and Labrador - maybe I
could understand it from members who represent urban centres in our Province,
but not people who represent rural districts. People who can dare stand on their
feet who represent rural districts and say, oh, we are making a difference,
things are different - they are not. They are, obviously, not listening to their
constituents or they are not going back to their districts enough to even hear
what is being said. My fear is that the Premier has done to them exactly what he
did to the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's and said: Hey, guys, it is
either me or you. They have all chosen, of course, to toe the party line, to be
a part of the government, and not to speak out and speak up on behalf of their
constituents.
It is funny, because the Premier himself when you talk about credibility -
this is the man who is the Minister of the Department of Business for the
Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, the man who has refused to appear
before the Estimates Committee, a Budget Estimates Committee, to talk about this
wonderful new department. Today we really do not know what the department does.
There was $750,000 allocated for grants or subsidies. We do not know how the
money was spent. We have no idea what happened to it. We do not know how many
positions have been created. We have a Department of Business that, who knows,
we really cannot get a handle on it. He refuses to appear before the committee
to answer questions and so we really do not know whether the department exists.
It exists on paper but we have seen nothing concrete come out of it; another
example of where the Premier has lost all credibility.
He keeps standing on the Atlantic Accord. You know: Look what I did, I
brought home the Atlantic Accord. You know, we all supported him. We all
supported him getting what he could out of Ottawa for the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador, but at some point in time you have to do more. You
have to do more! You cannot ride on that for the rest of your term in office.
People expect you to deliver and you are not delivering. As a government you are
not delivering in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.
When I go to my district, I hear time and time again: What is this government
doing? Is there anything we can do to get rid of this Premier? What did we do in
electing him to lead the Province? I keep saying there is not a thing you can
do. The only people that can get rid of this Premier are those who sit in
government with him. They could do if they all stood up and were counted, like
the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's did. They could, because clearly if
they looked at him and said, Premier what you are doing is not in the best
interest of Newfoundland and Labrador, it is certainly not in the best interests
of rural Newfoundland and Labrador, he would have to listen. It would have to be
either all of you or him. Certainly heavens, a leader, if he is a leader in the
true sense of the word, would have to listen. He would have to listen to those
people who got elected, who helped him form a government. You were not
appointed, you were elected by your constituents, and it is those very people
who are today telling you that the decisions you are making are harming rural
Newfoundland and Labrador.
Talk about health care - and I am so glad the Acting Minister of Health just
walked in, because on the weekend-
CHAIR: Order, please!
I remind the hon. Member for Grand Bank that her speaking time has expired.
MS FOOTE: Time to clue up, Mr. Chair?
CHAIR: Does the member have leave?
AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.
CHAIR: The hon. member, by leave.
MS FOOTE: Just one example that I wanted to give before I sit down with
respect to health care. This is a patient who I met on the weekend, in fact, who
has prostate cancer, in fact was diagnosed last November, has had four
appointments cancelled and one was ten minutes before he was to leave to come in
to St. John's. They are telling him they don't have the necessary equipment,
they need another piece of equipment to be able to accommodate all of the needs
over there, or else they just cancel the appointment and then reschedule. This
is very difficult on this particular patient.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Burin-Placentia West.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Chair, it gives me pleasure to get up and speak this
afternoon. In particular, it gives me pleasure to follow the Member for Grand
Bank, because I have been listening to her and following the points that she has
put across for the last number of weeks and months, I guess. I am glad that she
is going to sit and listen to me for a few minutes.
In fact, Mr. Chair, I might enlighten her a little as to some of the things
that are happening on the Peninsula, in particular as this Budget and this
government speak to rural Newfoundland and Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Chair, the problem that -
MS FOOTE: (Inaudible).
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
CHAIR: Order, please! Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Burin-Placentia West.
MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Chair, it seems now that she has become a little bit
irate that I am following her. I am going to take her to task and challenge her
on some of the comments that she has made.
She speaks about health care on the Burin Peninsula, and I can assure her,
Mr. Chair, one thing: As sure as I am standing here the people on the Burin
Peninsula, if they care to listen to me or not, what they decide to do in a few
years time will be entirely up to them. Mr. Chair, I can assure you one thing,
that the moves that I make and the initiatives that I support on the Burin
Peninsula will be in the best interests of the people and will be in the best
interests of health care.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Chair, they will not be politically motivated.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. JACKMAN: These announcements, if I can carry it through to the
Cabinet Ministers and the officials and get moves made on behalf of health care,
they won't be announced, Mr. Chair, one month before the next election.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. JACKMAN: They will be announced, Mr. Chair, when all of the experts
in the field have been consulted and the decisions, then, have been made
respective to those initiatives that are being brought forward. If the people in
the field decide that the best move is to support the initiative that she brings
forward the petitions on, I will be the first one who will be out there to
support it.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Chair, we sit here and we listen, and I do agree that
opposite members have had their time. Most of them have been ministers and they
have the experience in the House that I may not have and they bring that
forward. But I guess it is -
MS FOOTE: (Inaudible).
MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Chair, I have to say, I must really have her hyped up
this evening because she is over there continually heckling and I am having a
problem even hearing myself.
Mr. Chair, I guess it is for the people of the Province to decide if all of
the issues as they relate to - whether it be health care or education or
transportation, you know, we have to ask ourselves: Did these things happen
within the last eighteen months? People with sound, logical reasoning will say
to you that a CT scan must not - you know, if the issue arose eighteen months
ago or nineteen months ago, a month before the election, we have to question - I
am not saying that the piece of equipment is not needed. I am certainly not
saying that, but for it to arise itself a month before the election, it brings
into question the credibility of the people opposite and the initiatives that
they are putting forward.
Maybe I should, like I said before, enlighten the Member for Grand Bank as to
what has been happening. I should let her know that I met with the foundation
and other members and other representatives from government on Friday past.
Today I met with another group, in terms of health care on the Burin Peninsula.
I was really glad to hear, a week or so ago, the Member for Bellevue speak to
the health care issue because I have said over and over, Mr. Chair, once you top
the mile hill going to the Burin Peninsula, we are unique, as an entity,
geographically. When I speak for the Burin Peninsula, I am not only speaking for
the District of Burin-Placentia West. We have the District of Grand Bank. We
have a portion of the Member for Bellevue's district. Sometimes I think that
this is a group which does not deserve its just attention in terms of health
care and it is time that we start to work together to attend to the needs of
that portion of his district as it relates to the Burin Peninsula.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Chair, if you are talking to the issues as they relate
to rural Newfoundland and Labrador, I would ask the members opposite to just
consider some of the initiatives.
I heard the Member for Grand Bank mention she has not seen concrete evidence
of what this government is doing for rural Newfoundland and Labrador. Well, Mr.
Chair, let me list two things just for her reference. Maybe, Mr. Chair, she
might want to get up at some point in the very near future and recognize these
two initiatives. The Regional Diversification Fund -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
CHAIR: Order, please!
MR. JACKMAN: - it is $5 million aimed at community and regional partners
as they plan and as they build on the strengths of the communities, the various
communities in the district. Mr. Chair, I am very pleased to report to her - if
she wants something concrete, I know of two groups already that are submitting
applications for funding support. You know, this $5 million fund, whether people
know it or not - I guess the onus is on us to get that information out - is a
non-repayable contribution. If groups in our communities, working with our
regional development associations want to put applications in, the offices are
open for that type of thing.
The second thing, Mr. Chair, if she is looking to concrete things again -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
CHAIR: Order, please!
MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Chair, I do not know, I cannot -
CHAIR: Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Burin-Placentia West.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Chair, as I said before, she seems to be getting rather
upset and she is looking for concrete evidence. I have just given her a concrete
example of $5 million. Well, I am going to give her another one now. Mr. Chair,
the truth is bothering them. It is hurting them.
Mr. Chair, we have set forth a plan for a $10 million revolving fund. What is
that money for? That money is to support small to medium businesses; those
businesses that are looking to start up or those businesses that are looking to
expand. Well, we are now offering them financial support so that they can
improve upon their business. What are we looking for? We are looking for - we
know that small to medium-sized businesses are the economy movers. They are the
economy movers and we are looking at - people who want to put applications into
this fund, that they can improve their businesses, further develop their
business plans. Mr. Chair, the bottom line, that we hire additional people so
that if we have people in our districts who have businesses that are
operational, that they look to bring into the workforce other people and hire
these people. There is no doubt about it, Mr. Chair, the face of rural
Newfoundland and Labrador is changing. There is no doubt about that. So, we can
either sit back - and I would ask the people of the Province to consider, again,
that this stuff did not just happen in the last number of months. Within the
last eighteen months, Mr Chair, this government has brought in initiatives, like
I said, with a $5 million fund or the $10 million fund that are helping to
support these initiatives and further improve the situation in rural
Newfoundland and Labrador.
As this continues to roll out, Mr. Chair -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
CHAIR: Order, please!
I remind the hon. Member for Burin-Placentia West that his time has expired.
MR. JACKMAN: Just a minute to conclude, Mr. Chair?
AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.
CHAIR: Order, please!
MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Chair, I conclude by saying this, it seems to bother the
members opposite when - as my colleague for Terra Nova said, as we start to
bring forward some positive points they seem to get a little irrate. So, I look
forward to expanding further on some of these initiatives.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I wanted to rise and say a few words with regard to the Budget. I sat here,
Mr. Chair, and I could not believe what I am hearing today. I cannot believe
what I am hearing today, especially coming out of the mouth of the Member for
Burin-Placentia West. I sat back here and I listened to the member get up and
say to the Member for Grand Bank, I am going to enlighten you now he said. Well,
I can guarantee you, I have sat in this House with the Member for Grand Bank for
almost ten years and I can say to the hon. member, she does not