Volume XL ·r·~ r·-"' (1, -~~. · ~ ""'A -.. 1. ~) ~ ~ •' ' \ Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT ·· {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas 1\'ftlm L,er rv; l' ;.L.-. r.11 :-= Tuao 19o.:::; 'J J ~ "" • .., .....

The House met at 3:00 P.M. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, one of the major and most encouraging developments to appear on the world fishing scene in recent years has been with respect to aquaculture. A number of fishing nations, particularly the Scandinavian countries, have pursued development initiatives in such areas as salmon and trout farming to provide significant economic contributions to their overall fishing efforts.

Here in this Province,_ we have been pursuing similar initatives. Over the past four to five years, my department, in co-operation with other groups, has been actively involved in a number of aquaculture research and development activities. These have included support for the rainbow trout farm at Hopeall, Trinity Bay, support for scallop farming activities in Marystown and on the Port au Port Peninsula, and support for ongoing aquaculture research activities being carried out by Memorial University's Marine Science Research Laboratory.

Up to this point, the pace of this development has, out of necessity, been cautious. Aquaculture is a very precise activity requiring strict attention to appropriate Ll371 6 June 1985 Vol XL environmental conditions. is a significant time lag There between the period of initial investment and return investment. A failure capital on this to pay strict attention to the environmental conditions could result in the initial investment being wiped out in this interim period. I believe this cautious approach has served us well.

The research which has been conducted and the experience gained has shown us that we have · the potential for aquaculture development in Newfoundland. As well, it has identified where potential for success is the greatest. We are now ready to move forward to develop . this potential and, this government believes it has a major role to play in fostering this development.

Consistent with this, han. members will undoubtedly have noted by now that the budget estimates for my department for the new fiscal year, contain a significant increase in support for aquaculture development: $250,000 as opposed to $85,400 during the last fiscal year. In addition, my department has recently acquired the services of a full-time aquaculturist. Mr. Speaker, today I am pleased to inform this han.

House that my department has taken a rna jar step forward towards the increased promotion of aquaculture development through the introduction the mussel programme. of a new culture programme: incentive In recent years, there has been an increasing market demand for mussels and our research has shown that we have the potential to cultivate mussels to supply this No. 27 R1371

market. However, at the present time, there is only one commerical mussel far in the Province. We hope that through the incentives provided by this new programme, there will be an increased and widespread testing of potential mussel culture sites and that, in turn, this will lead to the establishment of other commerical farms. Under the programme, my department will provide qualified prospective mussel growers with sufficient gear to determine the feasibility of potential mussel culture sites. This gear includes everything from floats and anchors to the collectors · which are required.

In addition, my officials will be providing significant technical advice and follow-up. They will assist with the initial site evaluation, on-site technical instructions, follow-up evaluation of the results, and planning assistance for subsequent commercial development. Prospective mussel farmers interested in obtaining additional information or, availing of the assistance provided by this new programme, are requested to get in contact with my department. Mr. Speaker, I believe this represents a significant step forward for the future development of the potential of our fishery resource.

Over the course of the next few months, I hope to be able to make public the details of other measures we are intending to implement. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Fogo. Ll372 6 June 1985 Vol XL MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me again thank the minister, as I did yesterday, for passing me his . ministerial statement with lots of lead time to go over it. I want to say to him right off that we welcome any new initiative that _the minister and his department will take, in . view of th~ number of people unemployed in this Province we have no other choice.

But let me say to hi~ that I believe what he is taking here is a baby step rather than a major step, that it is high time that the department took some of those steps. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. TULK: There is a bunch of nasties over there in that corner somewhere, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: Mussels in the corner. MR. TULK: Mussels in the corner and the flying undertaker. If he looks at his budget estimates he will find that his budget has $. 25 million. I could even put it bett~r for him perhaps and say $250,000 as compared to $85,400 last year for aquaculture in the Province.

And I say to him that that in itself, compared to what is needed in the fishery, is peanuts. Let me point out to him that his federal buddies, have recently taken $50 million out of their fisheries budget, and that certainly is not going to help either aquaculture or any other kind of fishing enterprise in this No. 27 Rl37 2

Province. And I want to point out to him that this is not new. He talks about the cautious approach so that we- can gain valuable experience, that experience has been gained by other countries long before ever the minister got into this whole field. For example, there are thousands and thousands of jobs I understand in places. like Norway in aquaculture. And I say to the minister that the number of unemployed in this Province today requires more than the cautious steps that he has taken in the Department of Fisheries.

There is not much point in bringing this somewhat minor programme into this Province when he has so many major problems to deal with in taking care , of the unemployed and the underpaid fishermen in this Province. MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear! Excellent. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, during the last few weeks the Department of Education has received representation from parents concerning the provision of French Immersion classes in the St. John's area. The St.

John's Roman Catholic and Avalon Consolidated School Boards received requests from 218 Kindergarten students for admission to early French immersion classes in September of 1985. The Boards were able to accept 150 students into programmes already established, but did not have the resources to accommodate all of the students. I met listened Ll373 with the to their 6 June 1985 parents concerns and and Vol XL also discussed this programme last week with representatives of the Boards.

They are prepared to make every effort within means available to them to accommodate the wishes of all parents who want to enrol their children in French immersion classes. Funding for French immersion programmes is cost-shared with the federal government under the Federal-Provincial Bilingual Agreement. The Province' s capacity to provide financial support for new French immersion classes will depend on the level of -funding we receive under the agreement for the 1985-86 school year. The St.

John' s School Boards have informed me of their willingness to provide additional classes which will facilitate entry to all of those students who have previously been refused admission to French immersion, provided funding is available from the agreement. The Department of Education supports this initiative, and has submitted proposals for funding to the federal Department of The Secrstary of State. Mr.

Speaker, the Department of Education will continue to support this programme, and will make every reasonable effort, within the resources available, to assist school boards in their efforts to meet the expanding demand for French immersion classes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. No. 27 Rl373

MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, we welcome any initiative taken by th~s government to demonstrate the fact that we are a bil -ingual country. Any advancement of our education system in this Province with regard to French, or any other language, should not be political bu~ should be an educational outlet for developing one's intellect. It is unfortunate that this has had to come about I am a little bit surprised at the defensive atti.tude the minister took in the first place. I referred to Justice to see if we have to provide French at all and then countering that we do not have to.

Editorials have said French immersion is a violation of the Education Act. If French immersion is a violation of the Education Act, is the Education in violation of the Charter of Rights? We are only providing French immersion for larger urban . areas, and we have to be careful we do not become elitest and we should provide it in rural areas also. And it should not be limited to one particular school board so that you have to live in a designated area of the town in order to get your children into it. So there are problems that will come up in the future.

Here we are talking about French immersion, while on the Port au Port Peninsula, where 65 per cent of the population is of French descent and have been trying to get their own French school system from Kind~rgarten, up. We are not even providing them with the basics of their culture. The member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) raised yesterday in the Committee the problem with languages in regard to the Inuit L1374 6 June 1985 Vol XL and Innu. I hope that the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) will make sure that Native children in our Province are educated in their own languages as well as English.

So this side welcomes the minister's statement. Again, it resulted through pressure from the parents. I advise all parents in the Province if th~re is an issue that comes forward with which they do not agree to protest, and not just in the area of educatrion. This again proves that public pressure does work - letters to the editor and open line programmes. If people do not like a programme brought in by this government, Mr. Speaker, then -it is up to · them to object. So I compliment the minister for doing it and compliment even more so the parents who want their children to have a first-class education.

I hope that in future, the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) will ensure that our Native peoples are educated in their own languages, just as the French people of Port au Port have their own French language school. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Before we get into Question Period, I wonder if we could have some comment from the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) with respect to the scheduling of Estimates Committees. It has all broken ~own again, apparently. The last

schedule we had was that the Energy estimates would be No. 27 Rl374

coming up tomorrow evening, and my colleague from Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) referred to this •. We had a tentative schedule. ' We realized it was tentative, but still3we definitely had the Department of Development to come up after the continuation of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, we have to make certain plans on our own

schedule and we know we want to be subject to the House, but we do not want to be misled, particularly when it involves other Committees of the House, where the member for Windsor - Buchans, who is the energy spokesperson, has been invited to a function concerning the Committee on Privileges and Elections. I myself have been invited to the same function. Now, it is impossible, Mr. Speaker, to have MHAs .do the job if ~hey do not receive proper notification with respect to these Committees ·.

I would refer Your Honour to the editorial in today's Evening Telegram, which gives some explanation of why I have yet to see a reporter from The Evening Telegram in an Estimates Committee that I have been attending. I understand they have been to a couple of the Committees, but by far the majority of the Committees have not seen an Evening Telegram reporter. Well, we have the editors of that paper stating, Mr. Speaker, that it is because they are not receiving sufficient notice with respect to the scheduling of these departments, and they are not receiving enough lead time to arrange for coverage. Now, Mr.

Speaker, frankly I do not see how this can continue in another session of this House, that we have this farce with Ll375 6 June 1985 Vol XL respect to dealing with the estimates, where you have members sitting down having a nice, casual chat amongst themselves, with no opportunity to get out . to the people of this Province the issues involved in an analysis of the estimates. Now, the whole point is to make it .known to the general public how government is spending or is not spending the money which is entrusted to their care.

If the public cannot have this information raised with them, we do not have the capabilities of the Premier's Office to churn out these little brochures with barrels of oil on them and so forth. We do not want to have to resort to propaganda, Mr. Speaker, in order to get out the legitimate business of this House which it should be possible to get out by giving the press proper notice of these estima~e committee meetings. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I am still not clear whether the hon. gentleman got up on a point of privilege, a point of order or just a soliloquy but in any event, Mr. Speaker, I shall take it as a point of order and I will respond with respect to it. First of all with respect to the schedule, the hon. gentleman in this House last week - and we endeavour to cooperate to make these committees function properly said, 'We are not getting a schedule.' Do you remember that?

Hansard will bear that out, •we do not know what is coming up next.' So, at the end of the day I gave him a schedule, 'In the Resource Committee, ' I s.aid, 'on Monday it will be Fisheries, on Wednesday it will be Energy and on Thursday it will be Development.' That is the No. 27 Rl375

May 30 notice, I have a copy of it right here. Then, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman . went into a state of apoplexy or whatever, I cannot get my tongue around the word, and he started shouting over on th~ other side, 'But we do not know if Fisheries will be over. You are presuming that it will be over and that it will follow.' And my response was, 'Well, if Fisheries is not over then Fisheries wili flow into the next day and things will be postponed.' And that is exactly what happened. On Tuesday, Fisheries met: on Wednesday, Fisheries met; and, : tonight, scheduled in logical f~shion is Energy.

Now the hon. ·gentleman mentions he has a fun~tion. I have the same function ·as well, Mr. Speaker, but I regard these committees to be sufficiently important that it is the main duty of any member of this House, and certainly the minister, to make himself available. I have two or three functions tonight but the Committee has asked me to appear and I will appear. Now as for the what the hon .. gentleman indicates with respect to one of the press indicating they did not have sufficient notice, Mr. Speaker, the notice is there in Standing Order 120.

The procedure is that after the budget is over the various departments are referred to the committees and it says in Standing Order 120 that for fifteen days they consider the estimates. So all of the press know that it is a fifteen day period, they know that you meet in the morning and at night, not in the afternoon. So I do not see that it is any real hardship for them to programme themselves. If they do not it has something to do with thee internal operations of that particular newspaper or that particular medium.

But all we can Ll376 6 June 1985 Vol XL do is House say has the business of to go on and the the business is going on. Now as .to these committees, this is . one of the most forward steps that has ever been taken. It was collaborated in and agreed upon by the most distinguished member from the Liberal side · away - I have to differentiate because all members of the Tory Opposition, except one, in history were distinguished hen. Don Jamieson, who agreed with this. This process is used in every parliamentary jurisdiction under the British parliamentary system.

It is used throughout canada, it is used in Britain, and it is used elsewhere, in the other Commonwealth countries, and the idea of it is you get a committee of five to seven people and it enables a more detailed examination of the estimates. PREMIER PECKFORD: Not if they stay on the minister's salary for hours. MR. MARSHALL: What has happened in this case is the hen. gentlemen there opposite are trying to derogate from the process and all the rest of it.

What they are doing in thQ Committees is staying on the ministers' salaries, they are not asking the question~ as to what this expenditure is for and that sort of thing. Mr. Speaker, you can bring horses to the water but you cannot make them drink. Now, we have set up the process, the process is ongoing, it is the same process that has worked so well in the British parliamentary system, it could work here with good will and co-operation on both sides. We are willing to co-operate. We give notice of which Committees are meeting and No. 27 .Rl376

which departments they will be considering, timely notice. There is nothing more we can do except to say that we have the responsibility for the business of this Province, we are putting it through in an orderly fashion, we have set up this procedure, and this is what we will continue to do. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I do not want to extend this, although it is a very serious matter from our point of view.

If I could just mention that the Premier stood up in this House and he gave to this House a good commitment with respect to what was intended. He admitted that there had been some difficulty, and we understand, Mr. Speaker, that at times ministers require consideration. The representatives of this side of the House on the Resource Committee undertook with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) to excuse him from meeting with the Committee this evening so that he could meet with a minister from another country, the minister from Iceland, who is visiting the Province.

We felt that that was an important function, that the minister should be ·excused from the Committee and should go and meet that gentleman. But, Mr. Speaker, we have a commitment from the Premier that there will be co-operation. Granted the committee system seems Ll377 6 June 1985 Vol XL to work in other places, but that co-operation has to be there, and the same day the Premier gave the commitment, they changed the

schedule on us. I will just table for Your Honour the

schedule that was given us last night - MR. FLIGHT: At six o'clock. MR. BARRY: - at six o'clock by the minister who just stood on his feet, which set out the continuation of the Fisheries Department for last night, and set out Development for tonight. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is one thing for the minister to say, Well, all members have to attend and be . diligent in their attendance in Estimates Committees, including members on this side, we agree, but it is another thing for members of this House to be misled by information supplied by the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) and that is what has happened, and that is what is continuously happening with respect to these Committees. We are misled, the press is misled, nobody knows what is going on, and the Committee system is not working as a result. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I can table what was given the House on May 30. The Chairman of the Resource Committee (Mr. Peach) can get up and contradict me if I am not repeating correctly to the House what he said but, first of all, the

schedule called for Fisheries, Energy and Development -despite No. 27 Rl377

what the hon. gentleman said. Yesterday they agreed to this with the Chairman of the Resource Estimates Committee that we would meet today on Energy. So the members had notice of it. They agreed. They are obviously, Mr. Speaker, playing games with respect to it. We are bending over backwards to co-operate, we will continue to co-operate, but we have to conduct the affairs of the Province properly. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order. I have monitored this since I made the statement in the House the other day.

As I understand it, the Fisheries Department now is still on the Minister's Salary. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes. PREMIER PECKFORD: You are still on the Minister's Salary. MR. BARRY: That is normal. PREMIER PECKFORD: But how many hours have you had? The federal budget of $90 billion or $100 billion have been approved in principle after six days. You are not being fair. You should be down through the Minister of Fisheries's estimates. MR. BARRY: Hold on now! We will see who is fair. PREMIER PECKFORD: The Minister of Fisheries has been Ll378 6 June 1985 Vol XL there now.

Besides, the whole report from the Resource Committee comes back here for three more hours debate. There are fifteen days. The federal budget has been approved in principle in six days. Now what I would say is if hon. members opposite want co-operation, we will co-operate. But it seems to us that the members opposite are trying to deliberately delay getting through all of the departments so that at the end of the fifteen days you can make the point then all of the departments were not scrutinized by the Committees. MR. REID: Right on. Right on.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Because the Department of the Environment, you know, should be scrutinized. The Department of Public Works, or whatever other departments are ready to come up, should be scrutinized, but not in the same amount of time, perhaps, as Fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: But there should be a more reasonable approach. All they have been in Fisheries up to now is making speeches on the Minister's Salary. Now stop making speeches and get down at the subheads and examine each subhead and ask questions of the minister and his officials. MR.

BARRY: .Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the No. 27 Leader of the Rl378

Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we now see the Premier embarking upon his little game which is to try and modify the way the estimates proceed. Because the Premier knows full well that while we are on the Minister's Salary the Committee is entitled to ask questions about anything under the sun as far as the Minister's Department is concerned. And, believe me, there are a lot of rocks to overturn in that department, Mr. Speaker. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well why do you not (inaudible). MR.

BARRY: And to say that after two meetings of that Committee six hours, that we have exhausted what we can raise on the most important industry in this Province, which is in a total state of disarray is SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: false, misleading. Mr. Speaker, and And the Premier says they are not asking questions, they are giving speeches. The Premier has not been at those Estimates Committee meetings. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is the entitlement of members of this House and it is one of their obligations to make a speech if it is not getting through to the ministers what they should be doing. Now, Mr. Premier's Ll379 Speaker, little 6 June 1985 sometimes the tricks, his Vol XL little diversionary tactics work, Mr. Speaker, but they are not going to work this time, because I will refer the Premier to the

schedule of what has taking place in the Resource Committee to date. For the Premier' s information, after Fisheries there are only two departments that remain to be completed in that Resource Committee, namely, Development and the Energy aspect of Mines and Energy. And, Mr. Speaker, that Committee is much further ahead because we decided that we would give up time on other departments in order to zero in and concentrate on the Department of Fisheries, as we are entitled to do, and on the Department of Energy and on Development. Mr.

Speaker, we are not going to forego the right of the Opposition to decide where the scrutiny should take place, where the examination should take place, and we should not, Mr. Speaker, in order to .have that right, in order to have the right to scrutinize the estimates · of government, we should not sacrifice the right of knowing when these departments are coming before the Committee. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: To all of those grandiose words I can reply that schedules that were given were tentative. I can advise the House that the Resource Committee

schedule was changed by agreement. It was a 'tentative'

schedule which was supplied to the Opposition in trying to co-operate with them. Anyway, it was changed by agreement last evening by the members at the meeting. MR. FLIGHT: I am a member of the Committee, I No. 27 Rl379

was not told. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: You were not there last night. How could you agree or disagree? MR. TOBIN: Your House agreed. Leader PREMIER PECKFORD: (Mr. Tulk) Yes, the member for Fogo agreed. MR. TULK: That

schedule was not given to me. MR. TOBIN: You agreed to it last night and I was there when you agreed to it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, apart from all that, there are referred to each Committee, at the start of the fifteen days, six or seven departments. Now, surely the hon. gentleman there opposite are conversant enough to have been on notice fifteen days ago that these can come up. Surely they are conversant enough with affairs. They were given notice fifteen days ago with respect to it. The fact of the matter is that yesterday the

schedule was changed by agreement. The other fact of the matter is, which I think is quite evident, Mr. Speaker, is that the hon. gentlemen are trying to torpedo this system. They have attempted to torpedo it. I would say to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) and the members there opposite that the process of government would be better served if they made an honest, sincere effort to make it Ll380 6 June 1985 Vol XL work. If it does not work it is not the fault of the government, Mr. Speaker, it is the fault of the hon. members. PREMIER PECKFQRD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: It looks very much now like the Opposition are trying to torpedo this whole system. They are not going to torpedo it, Mr. Speaker. It is in the Standing Orders. The other thing is: they are demonstrating every day their incompetence. They have had this budget now since the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) introduced it, they have shadow ministers over there for every department who may have to take that one department and go through it and be the lead opposition member in that Committee on that department, with the others filling in and asking questions along the line.

There is no excuse for the various members over there taking the department or two that they shadow and going through eight or ten pages of subheads and so on, getting their research done and being ready for those committees. That is what we are here for. Now, other members other functions. opposite I told have the ministers here, in writing and in Cabinet, that the first obligation of every minister and member is to this Legislature and to its committees. Other functions notwithstanding, this is too important. It is what we have been elected to do. The budget is there, . they have read it.

You can tell in Question Period, Mr. Speaker, how much they know about the budget. We have to refer them No. 27 Rl380

to I do not know how many things every day. So the Opposition are not being fair and they are trying to torpedo the whole system. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: We will co-operate, but we are surely not going to bow down and allow them to torpedo something. They are demonstrating their incompetence and why they deserve to be on that side of the House and not this side. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): To the point of order, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, it is not a case of the Premier bowing down, it is a case of fair play. If the Premier wants to know why I was not at the Resource Policy Committee it was through no choice of my own. Morning, noon and night this past week we have been sitting on committees and on the Privilege and Elections Committee. This morning at 10:00 a.m. we met on the Privilege and Elections Cornrni ttee and I was there. This afternoon we are in the House of Assembly. Yesterday evening at 6:00 p.m. the hon. Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall ) presented to me and the rest of this Opposition a

schedule showing Resources on Thursday night, tonight. Now it has changed and Development is on tonight. Energy Ll381 6 June 1985 Vol XL is replaced tonight simply because the Minister of Development and Tourism (Mr. Barrett) is hosting a function on behalf of the ~ewfoundland Government in the Holiday Inn. Now the function that I am attending tonight as a member of that Privileges Committee is just as important to me and to the House as the function the Minister of Development is sponsoring. All we are asking is for the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) to look at it and stand by the commitment he made yesterday evening ~t 6:00 p.m. and let us keep Development on tonight as was scheduled on this schedule. I mean, the House has been misled, Mr. Speaker, because this is the

schedule that was delivered at 6:00 p.m. and members of this House leave this building at 6:00 p.m. and they have no way of knowing what the Government House Leader has done since. So, Mr. Speaker, what we are asking is for a little sense of fair play and . either put Development back where it was supposed to be tonight or else change the scheduling so that Energy will not take place tonight because there is a possipility, Mr. Speaker - and maybe the Government House Leader would want to live with this - that we can boycott the Committee.

What a farce it would be if the minister arrived tonight at a Committee with government members and no Opposition members. Maybe that is what the government wants to happen. Maybe it is not our scuttling the Estimates Committees but rather the government would like to shove those kinds of things through. So, Mr. Speaker, we are asking for a little sense of fair play. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. No. 27 Rl381

SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! The bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: May I suggest the _ point of order has been disposed of, there is no point of order. As to the bon. gentlemen boycotting, it would not make any difference anyway. We have been sitting in this Bouse and the hon. gentlemen there opposite, none of them, except for one morning, I remember, has asked questions on Energy and they retreated in defeat very shortly thereafter. So it does not make any difference.

Apparently it does not make any difference when the bon. gentlemen turn up anyway. I wish it did. I wish you would be more conversant with the Energy estimates to be able to ask some incisive questions. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think I have heard enough. To that point of order, I felt right from the start that there was not a point of order but I felt that there was some misunderstanding about the times of the committee hearings and this is why I let the debate continue.

As far as I can see under Standing Order 84 (d), page 28, •The said Standing Committee may sit at all times during the Assembly for which they are appointed, whether or not the House is in Session, adjourned or prorogued. n I do not think there is any point of order here. It is a matter of trying to arrange times that are as mutually satisfactory as possible. Ll382 6 June 1985 Vol XL Before calling oral Questions, I have great pleasure in welcoming Senator Joyce Fairburn to the gallery. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

I would like to welcome Grade VI students from Elementary, with their Danny Rideout. fourteen Horwood teacher, Also, I would like to welcome twenty-five students from Holy Cross High School, with their teachers, Kevin Major and Mrs. Linda Pike. It does not say where they are from, presumably St. John's. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. TOLK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have here in my hand two letters, one of which, on Tuesday evening, was tabled in the Resource Estimates Committee by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Rideout) , and clearly pointed out the government's position on the West German overfishing offshore. I have another which was tabled yesterday afternoon in the House by the Minister of Fisheries It was in reply to some questions from the member for Fortune Hermitage (Mr. Simmons), but he tabled it yesterday afternoon. It was supposed to be the letter sent to the federal Minister of No. 27 Rl382

Fisheries (Mr. Fraser), the Right Hon. Joe Clark, the hon. John c. Crosbie, the hon. Gerald.. Ottenheimer and the hon. the Premier. It was only upon reading this letter yesterday evening, Mr. Speaker, that I found out the government's position was nothing but pure gibberish and has been changed from the original draft. Consequently, I questioned the minister on it last night in the Estimates Committee, since the Premier wants to know whether we ask questions.

I questioned the minister and he said first of all that it did not change the position of the government, that there was no change in the letters, but then he finally admitted that there was. This morning, I received a telephone call from the minister, telling me that this second letter 1 the one that was tabled in the House yesterday, is not the letter that was sent to the people named in the letter, either copied or original.

I think the minister said the original draft was re-typed yesterday, with the pertinent phrases, namely, those about the West German overfishing being regretted as part of the total EEC, being left out. Now, I want to ask the minister, will he now table the third letter that he is referring to, and will that be the final and authoritative letter that we can expect from the Minister of Fisheries? Also, when did he send that letter? Was it April 30 1 as was stated on this supposedly re-typed version of the original draft? MR.

SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. the minister, I would like to · welcome to the galleries, Mr. Joseph Maingot, Q.C., who was Law Clerk Ll383 6 June 1985 Vol XL and Parliamentary Consul House of Commons, Ottawa, now a member of the Law Commission of canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: at the and is Reform The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. TULK: Apologize now. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing to apologize for. MR. TULK: You misled the House. MR. RIDEOUT: I will try to answer the question that the gentleman from Fogo (Mr. Tulk) raised.

I explained to him this morning there was nothing underhanded, no misleading of the House, nothing of that nature, Mr. Speaker. He asked me if I could table it, and I will. As hon. gentleman can see, and they can look at it pretty closely once it is tabled and passed around, this is a very, very poor document, very, very poor copy because of the quality of the copying. So yesterday, before I came to the House to table the letter, my good secretary, in her wisdom, decided we would do it over again so that it would be very nice looking. AN HON. MEMBER: You are a poor copier. MR. RIDEOUT: And that is about it, Mr.

Speaker, it is laughable. We did it over again so that we would have a very nice, glossy copy for all members, the press, and anybody else who wanted to read it. In doing it over again, four or five words - No. 27 Rl383

the hon. were left gentleman was out of this right one that were in this one, and this is the one that sent by special courier to Ottawa, Mr. Speaker. This is the one that was sent to Ottawa by special courier and has included in it the words that the hon. gentleman was talking about, 'And that the fish taken by the West German fleet will be regarded as the full EEC allocation for the duration of the LTA.' These were in the working document but were left out of this effort to present a nice little copy to the House of Assembly. So no doubt, Mr.

Speaker, when things arrive in ministers' offices, as when they arrive in ministers' offices here, they are stamped, they are logged, and they are recorded. And there will be no doubt, I am sure, that this document, which was sent by special courier from this Province on April 30, is the same document that I have here now, the same one that without any malice or any intention to mislead, we attempted to provide to the House yesterday. It was just that we went overboard - not overboard, perhaps, but we went out of our way to provide a nice copy so that it would be easy to read, Mr. Speaker.

There is nothing underhanded, there is no attempt to mislead, it is just an attempt to be accommodating, to be courteous , to provide good, readable information to the House. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, why does the minister not trade in the shredder and get Ll384 6 June 1985 Vol XL a good copier? He seems to good shredders but poor copiers. Mr. Speakerr regardless of whether the minister meant to or not, he did mislead this : House yesterday. I want to ask him is this copy glossy or if it is an affair that has been glossed over?

Let me put the question to him. Is it not fair to conclude, given the confusion that the minister has created with this whole situation - and there is no point in his door of minister conclude trying to lay it at his - secretary, he is is it not fair thci,t the one reason the the to the Newfoundland Government is in such ignorance of _ its major resource is that the minister has shown us that he simply does not know how to carry on communications either with the federal minister or anyone else? Is that the real problem in the Department of Fisheries? MR. RIDEOUT~ Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Of course not, Mr. Speaker. is not the real problem in Department of Fisheries. Department functioning Department excellent of Fisheries very, very well. of Fisheries has leadership since That the The is The had this administration came to office, it has excellent political leadership again, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: That is your problem. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. RIDEOUT: No. 27 Rl384

:t This administration is dedicated to the preservation of the fishery~ dedicated to the preservation of the fishery in Fogo, along the Northeast Coast, and along the Southeast Coast. This administration, Mr. Speaker, is so dedicated in providing good, readable documents to the House that the only little thing that happened, Mr. Speaker, was that in our overzealousness to do so three of four words were left out. There was the real document, the document that mattered, and the document that the hon. gentleman - SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Order, please! MR.

RIDEOUT: - came down to the Committee with last night and he thought he had us comm.i tting crimes, he thought he had us comm.i tting treason 1 He came down and he spent twenty-five or thirty minutes ballyragging me, beating me into the floor, beating up on me, Mr. Speaker, little old me compared to him, and he got caught out. That is what happened, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: And then they want more time in the Estimates Committees. MR. TOLK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, member for Fogo. MR. TOLK: the hon. the I have to say to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Rideout) that yesterday evening in Committee it did seem that I was bullying, and I backed off. When it was L1385 6 June 1985 Vol XL revealed to him, he would not have bled if you had stuck him, not at all. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister if this is the original copy? Is this the final copy that we are going to get or does the hon. gentleman really have something to hide here.? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing to hide.

We are as honest over here as the day is long, and this minister, I can say to the House without sounding boastful, is as honest as two days are long, if that is possible, without being modest. This is not the original, Mr. Speaker, but this is a copy of the original. The original is in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker, with all the words that were in the working document, with all the words that are in this document, pointing out very clearly, Mr. Speaker, that this Province made some very strong, very determined positions, and presented them to the federal government.

We have followed up on them verbally, as I told the hon. gentleman, and will be following up on them again in the Atlantic Council of Ministers meeting next week. We are 100 per cent aboveboard and on deck, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary by the hon. member for Fogo. MR. TOLK: Mr. Speaker, let me say to the hon. minister that there will be no more need for the shredder, because you will not be able to read the minister's files from now No. 27 R1385

on. No documents are going into the files from here on in. . Let me let the minister settle down. Let him settle down. There were five people named in the letters that were dated April 30 - I suppose they were dated - and yesterday we have received a second copy. They were the Hon. John Fraser, Joe Clark, John Crosbie, the Hon. Gerry Ottenheimer and the Premier. Those letters were sent by special courier on April 30 and today is June 6. Now if those letters were sent on April 30, the minister, I am sure he will agree, should have received a reply by now. Will he table those replies? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, when I am finished with the reply, or all the replies for that matter - I have had a response from Mr. Fraser, I have had a response from Mr. Crosbie, I have had some correspondence with the Premier - when it is good an ready and we deem it appropriate, we will table whatever correspondence we want to table. But if the hon. gentleman wants to know if this is the document that is in Mr. Fraser 1 s office, or . Mr. Clark 1 s office, or Mr.

Crosbie's office, then he can go to Ottawa and they can pull out the file and show him that it is there word for word, not one word missing, Mr. Speaker, not one period missing, not one dot over an 1 i' missing, not one bar across a 1 t 1 missing, just as we said it was there. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fortune Hermitage. Ll386 6 June 1985 Vol XL MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the minister can bawl his way through this one, or he can settle down for a minute and realize that ·what he did yesterday was serious.

Now, it might have been inadv~rtent but no amount of shouting can gloss that over. He gives us his assurance today that there are no 1 i 1 s 1 missing, no crossed 1 t' s 1 missing, and so on, but I am not sure I am comfortable with that assurance. Because yesterday we have evidence that he signed a letter that he clearly did not read or did not understand, because his signature is on letter number two which indicates to the House that· he either did not understand it or the whole substance of the letter was missing from it. He did not understand that or he did not care what he gave to the House.

And for either reason, Mr. Speaker, he should just quit the yelling and understand that he owes an apology to the House for coming in here with a document that he purported to be a true copy of a original which we now know was not a true copy of the original. So, first of all, Mr. Speaker, is he now prepared to apologize to the House for that omission?

And, also, would he give the House the assurance that the less than competent sequence of events which is revealed here is not typical of the way he runs his office, that this is the exception that proves the rule, that it is possible when he sends a letter to the Minister of Fisheries for Canada (Mr. Fraser) to have a copy on file which is readable, and in the oft-chance that it is sometimes not readable, and they do not have good copiers around because the money is all tiec,i up in shredders and so on, can he give us the assurance that he has a secretary down there who can type word for No. 27 Rl386

word what is placed in front of that secretary? And thirdly, will he give us the assurance that he has the competence to read well before he signs .his name in his capacity as minister? MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, sometimes the Opposition will say I have a short fuse. But, I mean, you would hardly want to have any fuse at all to reply to . that type of question. The hen. gentleman should know how competently I run my office, Mr. Speaker, he has been there. MR. TULK: We all do. MR.

RIDEOUT: He has indicated how secure he feels in the competent way that I am approaching the job as Minister of Fisheries. He has said it to his constituents, Mr. Speaker. So the hen. gentleman has seen me in operation. I signed the letter that was brought to this House yesterday, Mr. Speaker. And, as I told the Committee last night, I do not slough off responsibility on secretaries or officials. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: The fact of the matter is, I take responsibility for it as minister. It was bro~ght into me, it said 'This copy is a better copy to go to the House' , and I signed it.

I did not read it through because in the files of the department, Mr. Speaker, is Ll387 6 June 1985 Vol XL the true copy of what went to Ottawa. Now, if it makes the hen. gentleman's heart beat any faster or makes his mind more at ease or gives him a greater capacity to understand that, if I did not want to be open and honest about this, I need not called the hen. gentleman this morning and said, 'Boy, look, here is really what happened, I need not have called the Chairman of the Committee, as I did this morning, and said, boy, look here is really what happened. If there was any cover-up on the go, Mr.

Speaker, I do not think you would do that kind of a thing. But if it makes the hen. gentleman' s conscience any easier so he can rest tonight, if he wants an apology for whatever error I may have committed, I apologize, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hen. the member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister in the first part of his answer for being so magnanimous as to acknowledge that I am one who does give credit where credit is due.

And what I said to him last week, when there was a delegation here, was that I had thought he had done a marvellous job of being open with me and with the constituents. That is not the issue today. The issue today is whether he can manage his files. That is the No. 27 Rl387

issue, and we have dealt with that issue. So my supplementary, Mr. Speaker, we .have dealt with the issue of managing files, and we have demonstrated, he cannot. Now the second issue, Mr. Speaker, which is really the gut of this entire matter is not so much how the letter went or what version went, but what kind of substantive response he has been able to trigger five weeks after the event. He was kept in the dark for two and a half months.

The letter went by courier five weeks ago because the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. , Ottenheimer) did not think it was important enough to send via Telex, so- they have got it, we have to assume, by now. What substantive response has he triggered in Ottawa to this very serious issue? That is the answer we would really like to know. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: You can now see very clearly, Mr. Speaker, where the opposition is coming from. First of all, the great matter of principle here was misleading the House. MR. SIMMONS: Which you did.

MR. RIDEOUT: Secondly, the great matter of principle here was that you cannot read. Thirdly, the great matter of principle here was that you cannot manage your files. Fourthly, the great matter of principle was that you should apologize to the House. Now the substantive question is, if you got this off as you say you did, Ll388 6 June 1985 Vol XL what kind of response did you get to it? Now, Mr. Speaker, I answered -that question for the gentleman for Fogo (Mr. Tulk). We have indeed received a response from - the Federal Minister (Mr. Fraser) and Mr. Crosbie and others.

We are going to be meeting as a Council of Ministers over the next few days to further expand on our position and the federal position, and when we are ready, Mr. Speaker, when we deem it appropriate, we will table any and or all correspondence that we have relative to this matter. When we deem it appropriate so to do! MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A supplementary, the han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I understood the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Rideout) to say yesterday evening in Committee, in answer to a question I put to him, that he had received no formal written reply from the Minister of Fisheries or any of the other people. Is he now saying that he has received a reply? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. gentleman should check the transcripts and I do not think he will find that there on this particular score. There were some other items that were mentioned when an answer along those lines were given. But on this, I do not think the hon. gentleman will find those words in the transcript.

No. 27 Rl388

MR. TULK: We will see. MR. HISCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries. He said that the original copy of the letter is in Ottawa and the reason why the copy was redone was to make sure that he had a nice glossy copy for the House. I would be rather surprised if the copy in the minister's files is the same as the one presented to the House. But if that is a copy of the original, is it not true that the letters that went to Mr. Clark, Mr. Crosbie, Mr.

Ottenheimer and the Premier would be in the same condition? How could you send a letter to the Minister of Extern~! Affairs and the Minister of Justice in such condition? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, the Spanish Inquisition is riding well. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, I assume the hon. gentleman may do some copying from time to time. .We all have to help ourselves at the copying machine from time to time. I would feel very comfortable in saying - MR. HISCOCK: Then why accept a letter like that for your own files? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Ll389 6 June 1985 Vol XL MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, does he want an answer or does he not? I would feel very comfortabie in saying that we sent a good quality product off to Ottawa and to the Premier and to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Ottenheimer) and so on. But when it went to be copied again you ended up with this kind of thing.

If you copy off a copy it is not very nice, so my secretary, to be honest, a very competent girl, did not think this would be very nice to make seventy-five copies from - fifty-two for the House and so many for the press I think the rule is, and by the time you made seventy-five copies of this you would not be able to read any of it. So we thought we would be really pleasant and courteous and do this, and in doing so we created the little problem that we have today. MR. HISCOCK: Do you have the glossy one in your files? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

RIDEOUT: I would just as soon not have it, but it is just as well to be honest about it. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Now we hear he made too many copies. He wore out the file copy making copies. How ridiculous! Mr. the Speaker, we other issues No. 27 have and dealt with they are Rl389

issues of principle, that the minister should be misleading the House and should be trying to slough off on us bogus copies and so on. We have gone through all of that. But the other issue, Mr. Speaker, which we should not lose sight of is that in another time, when another regime was in Ottawa, if they whacked off a Telex - it would not have gone by courier, I assure you - and they did not get a response within days, or a telephone call, he would be in here with a resolution getting both sides of the House to get together to get after the federal government to answer their mail.

Now it is five weeks, it is a serious matter, and the best the minister can give us is that one of those days he is going to go up to PEI somewhere, wherever it is, and have a cup of tea with John Fraser. Well, that is not good enough. I now ask him what he has done as a follow-up to that letter. Has he been on the phone? Has he sent a further Telex? Has he done something to convey to Ottawa the very serious concern we have with this matter on an urgent basis?

What is happening to ensure that the views of the Newfoundland Government and the Newfoundland people are being properly heard insofar as the West German overfishing is concerned. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I answered that question in detail last night when I was asked by the official critic for Fisheries for the Opposition. We have been in touch on a number of occasions, myself personally, with Mr. Fraser.

I met him face to face in Montreal as he was enroute to West Germany, and I embarked again on making sure that Ll390 6 June 1985 Vol XL he understood our position. The Premier has talked to him, and the Premier has talked to the Prime Minister. Mr. Speaker, we have done everything possible and will continue to do everything possible to make sure that we do to the best of our ability our job to protect the interests of Newfoundlanders. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health.

In recent days we have heard a number of complaints coming from the various hospitals with respect to the effect budget restraints are having on the quality · of health care. The latest, Mr. Speaker, came out yesterday from St. Clare's Hospital to the effect that 'Financial restraints at the hospital are putting too much stress on the nurses and will affect the quality and the quantity • - and I am quoting the Administrator now - 'of health care.• Is the minister now prepared to concede that financial restraints placed on the hospitals will have a very serious and adverse effect on health care?

And if that is the case, will he not, then, make sufficient money available to the hospital boards to ensure that does not happen? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. TWOMEY: Yes, we are aware that there will be some restraints in the health care system where our budgets have been tied to the zero. That happens in St. John's only. Yes, No. 27 Rl390

we know there will be cutbacks. Yes, we know that there will be a slowing of admission for elective cases. These · will happen. We have not decided at this time that we would add any more money to the budqet for these hospitals. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary to the Minister of Health. This last · weekend, I am sure, many of us watched the telethon on CBC television for the Janeway Children's Hospital and it raised · something like $340,000. We also hear now that St.

Clare • s Hospital is planning to set up a foundation in order to raise money as well. I was curious that at the end of the telethon the Administrator of the Janeway Hospital said that this money was not to be used for helping visitors to the hospital, or for supplementary programme~· and so on, but was going to be used to pay for basic equipment, such as x-ray equipment and other essentials. MR. BAIRD: What is your question? MR. FENWICK: I am getting to the question. Now, I am not a medical expert, but it seems to me that x-ray equipment is pretty basic stuff.

My question to the Minister of Health is does this mean that the hospitals are now so short of funds they have to go to the public for fund raising in order to get the basic equipment they need? MR. SPEAKER: Ll391 6 June 1985 Vol XL The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. TWOMEY: Mr. Speaker, it is not an unusual procedure for hospitals all over the world to organize a group you can call a foundation to raise funds. I think that you are very well aware that they have one at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto.

It has been there for years and years, and they have an executive staff full-time to raise funds on behalf of sick children in Toronto. I think you can move down again into ·the Maritime Provinces and you will find that the Killam Hospital in Halifax has the very same foundation. For many years, the ~eneral Hospital has had a foundation, so has the Janeway, so has the Central Newfoundland Hospital. And you will find, if you go across this Province, that there are various funds available from private donations, from gifts that might come from service clubs and other interested groups.

That has been a part, as far as I know, of hospitals' means of raising money, as long as I have been in the practice of medicine. MR. RIDEOUT: Right on! DR. TWOMEY: I do not think it is anything unusual, and · I think it is a commendable thing, since people want to give gifts. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! DR. TWOMEY: Now, if you go a little further and ask does it serve a purpose? - Yes, it does, because, as you know, you are a remarkable reader and you have read in detail the No. 27 Rl391

things that have happened, especially in the Social Democratic Party back in the Province of Manitoba, you know that Mr. Des Jardins, if you will excuse my French, gave a speech in, I believe November, 1984, to a meeting of the Municipal! ties in the Province of Manitoba, and he stated most emphatically that the Province of Manitoba and its government, which is the New Democratic government, could, under no circumstances at that time, go beyond 8. 8 per cent of the Gross Domestic Product of their province.

As far as I know - I am not quite sure at this very moment - a few years ago, ours was 12.7 of our Gross Domestic Product. Now, you asked me if x-ray equipment is part of that equipment that is going to be purchased? SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hearl DR. TWOME Y: To the best of my knowledge, the answer is no because, in the last two years, we have doubled the amount of money that we have put into a special fund for technology in all hospitals across this Province. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. TWOMEY: The present figure is around $6 million.

I understand, hearsay, that, yes, some money is going into this, but, also, the Department of Health would do it. And I think if you look around the world, no matter where you go, even to the richest kingdom in the world, you will find that there is a curtailment of money in all health care services. It started Ll392 6 June 1985 Vol XL last year in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and I can go on and on. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Tell us about that one.! DR.

TWOMEY: If is it possible it is right to have a group that are civic­ minded, they are volunteers, they will be delighted always to help hospitals because it shows the great humanity in our culture. MR. SIMMS: Good short answer! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A supplementary, the hon. member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: the It is always nice to ask a question of the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey) because you get the answer in such volume and you get it in such good humor.

However, if I am not mistaken, I did hear, in all that avalanche of information, an admission that the administrator of the hospital has said that he is using the funds for x-ray equipment. PREMIER PECKFORD: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No. 27 Rl392

The other day in this House, Mr. Speaker, when you made a ruling at the beginning of the day, you, if I remember correctly, explicitly instructed members of this House that in supplementary questions there was to be no

preamble. We are losing a lot of time out ()f our thirty minutes for valuable questions in this House. The hon. member now is up on a supplementary and, again, members are continuing to make speeches and have

preambles. Now, there is a standing rule which says that there is to be no

preamble to supplementary questions or there is not. As I understand it there is, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to see it enforced. ·MR. FENWICK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, . the hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: I think if the hon. the Premier were in the House the last half an hour he would have realized that any supplementary that was asked before this had twice as long a

preamble as the one that I have had so I do not see that that was necessarily so long. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That point of order is well taken. There should be no necessity for a long

preamble. I do think that the hon. member was getting into an excessively long one and I was going to draw his attention to that. The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. I would like to welcome to the Ll393 6 June 1985 Vol XL gallery the delegation from the council of Trinity in the district of Bona vista North. The counci~ is represented by the Deputy Mayor, Mr. Earn Rogers , and, councillors, Mr. Daren Brown and Mr. Harold Morris. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Se~ices. MR.

YOUNG: I do not think I will read.it, Mr. Speaker. I would like "to give the answers to questions asked by the hon. member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) the Order Paper of May 15. Unfortunately, Sir, this is only some of the answer. It will take about two people on my staff about another month to get it ready, but for the information of the hon. gentleman I will table the Annual Report of the Department of Public Works and Services, which contains information he asked about pertaining to all tenders and public contracts we go into. Petitions MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. No. 27 Rl393

MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition. As I pointed out yesterday to the House when I tried to present this petition, this is an original petition. It is not a copy of a petition. It is an original petition on behalf of approximately three hundred and some odd people in the community of Marysvale and we have some names from the Georgetown area included as well. As I tried yesterday to present this petition, Mr.

Speaker, I tried to bring to the attention of Your Honour something that came to my attention about two days ago and that is that this petition, that I am presenting today, this original petition, a photostat copy of this was presented in the House a couple of days ago. 0 MR. BAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Gander. MR.

BAKER: Standing Order 92, "Every member offering a petition to the House shall confine himself to the statement of the parties from whom it comes, the number of signatures attached to it and the material allegations it contains." I would suggest to you that the hon. member is getting off on a tirade that he started yesterday and has no bearing to that particular Standing Order. MR. DOYLE: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Ll394 6 June 1985 Vol XL MR.

DOYLE: As I ·go on in presenting this petition I think Your Honour will see that what I am about to say does have some relevance in presenting that petition. MR. BAKER: To that point of Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: order, Mr. To that point of order, the bon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: The Standing Order does not refer to the relevance and connection. It is very, very specific as to what the member may speak to. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I would draw the hen. minister's attention to the fact that he should confine his remarks to the prayer of the petition. MR. DOYLE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, then maybe I will have to rise on a point of order or a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege, the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: The point of privilege that I make is this: The hon. gentleman from Port de Grave (Mr. Effort) presented a photostat copy of this petition to the House a couple of days ago as an original with not one original signature on the petition except his own. Now the people in the Georgetown and Marysvale area have approached me, Mr.

Speaker, to present this petition on their behalf, and they also asked me to convey to Your Honour, as well, their very grave concern, their very grave No. 27 Rl394

displeasure, as a matter of fact, in having a copy of their petition presented to the House without their permission to do so. Mr. Speaker, that is a serious breach of the rules of this House. The fact that the hon. gentleman presented a photostat copy is, in itself, a breach of the rules of the House, so I would bring that to the attention of Your Honour as well. MR. EFFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): To the point of order, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: What a shame! MR. DAWE: There are rules in this House and you should learn operate by them. MR.

TULK: Get down basket ball (inaudible). MR. EFFORD: The fact that I as an MBA received a petition - MR. TULK: You were better at basketball than you are at politics. MR. BARRY: You were hit by too many pitch balls. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas)": Order please. MR. DAWE: That is why I was in the championship and you were not. MR. EFFORD: You are certainly not in the Ll395 6 June 1985 Vol XL championship now. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DAWE: The championship is on tomorrow. Are you ready? MR. EFFORD: Is the hon. member finished? Mr.

Speaker, the fact that I as an MBA received a petition from a group of people in the district of Harbour Main, which the hon. member represents, and I took it upon myself, when they asked me, to present it to the House, I did not think I was committing that much of a crime. The fact that it was a very necessary petition, and the fact that the people of the district, and people of part of my district, in Georgetown, were so concerned about the fact that their students were going to be moved from Marysvale to Brigus, it is still a mystery to me why the minister · had not presented the petition himself.

Now, when I got up and presented the petition - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I would ask the hon. member to confine himself to the point of order that was raised. MR. EFFORD: I am. Mr. Speaker, in speaking to that point of order I will go about it another way. The hon. member for Harbour Main (Mr. Doyle) has accused me of presenting a petition that was photo copied. Yes, I found that out today. I did not take notice of it in the beginning, but I did present a petition that was photocopied. No. 27 Rl395

MR. BARRY: Bring out the whips. Cut off the member's hand. Lash him. MR. EFFORD: Shocking! Shocking! I guess the hon. member was upset - MR. BAIRD: Surely you should know a photostat from an original. MR. EF FORD: I would not want to seek your advice ~n that part. MR. YOUNG: Tell us what you did on Saturday. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. EFFORD: The hon. the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) finally said something. What I did on Saturday was for a very good cause. It was ~or a lot of sick children at the Janeway Hospital, and I would do it again if it will help sick children.

To get back to the point of order, Mr. Speaker, Yes, I unknowingly presented a photocopy of a petition. I do apologize to the House for that, but I did it with the intention of helping the children of Marysvale and Georgetown. And if the hon. the member for Harbour Main thinks it of benefit to discredit me as a member, I will accept that. t·lR. SPEAKER (M cNi cholas): Order , please! To that point of order, it is a valid point of order. The hon. the me!n be :!:' for Port de Grave (Mr.

Efford) has pointed out that he was not aware of the fact that an Ll396 6 June 1985 Vol XL original copy of the petition was necessary, and the Chair certainly accepts that. The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in presenting this petition I would like, naturally, to speak in support of the petition. I am not quite sure how many people are listed on the petition, but I present it on behalf of approximately 340 people in the area of Georgetown and Marysvale. Mr.

Speaker, in view of what has happened over the last few days in presenting these petitions to the House, because we saw the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) present a petition he was unauthorized to present to the provincial Legislature, because it was clearly addressed to the federal Legislature, propably, Mr. Speaker, we would do well to have Your Honour have a look at those petitions before a member rises in the House to present them. MR. DAWE: Hear, hear! MR.

DOYLE: That might be a method by which we could cut out the business of having petitions presented in the House by people who are not authorized to do so. MR. BARRY: We will have a means test before (inaudible). MR . DO YLE : No. 27 Rl396

So, Mr. Speaker, anyway I am not going to ask Your Honour to reprimand the hon. gentleman opposite because he is a new member and, obviously, he does not yet know the rules of the House. But, be that as it may, Mr. Speaker, I have been approached by a number of people in Marysvale and Georgestown who have asked me to present this original petition on their behalf. And as I said a moment ago, to convey to Your Honour their grave concerns regarding what has gone on in the last few days. However, I am pleased to support the petition, Your Honour.

The petition reads : • We, the undersigned, demand that the elementary students in Grades IV and V remain at our Lady of Peace School Marysvale. We do not wish to have our children transferred to Brigus. • Now I think the hon. Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) is quite familiar with the petition because, as I said, it was presented last week, a photostat copy. The minister at that time did respond to the petition. But I do wish to support - MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Order, please! The hon. elapsed. MR. DOYLE: minister's time Could I have a minute, by leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS : By leave! By leave!

MR. SPEAKER: By leave! MR. TULK: has You had leave yesterday. Will you Ll397 6 June 1985 Vol XL be nice today? MR. DOYLE: Yes, I will be very nice. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister, by leave. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman opposite for leave. MR. TULK: You are welcome. MR. DOYLE: I do wish to support the efforts of the good people in those two communi ties who are quite anxious indeed to have these two classes remain at their small school. It is only a five grade school in the community of Marysvale. I have asked my very good friend and colleague, the Minister of Education (Mr.

Hearn) to look into the matter on behalf of the people in those two communities. And, of course, he has assured me that he will be doing just that. I have to assure also the people in those two communities that I have made representation on their behalf, not only to the Minister of Education, but also to the School Board representative in that area. I am presently awaiting a reply from him on that particular matter.

But it is a very serious situation, because the people in those two communities feel that they are being swallowed up, I suppose, by a neighbouring municipality, a bigger municipality, in having a couple of classrooms transferred to the Brigus area. So, Mr. Speaker, I will not abuse the leave that I have been given. I will, however, say once more, in clueing up, this is a serious No. 27 Rl397

matter that the people in those communi ties have, and they want our support on it, and I have no reservations at all in supporting the petition. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, seeing it is a fact the petition that I presented the other day was a photocopy, for some reason it must take away from the validity that the children from Marysvale have a problem, I will certainly have to rise in support of that petition.

I whole-heartedly agree with the concerns of the people of that district, and the fact that their children may be bussed down to Brigus which is some distance away. Also to the fact that I am quite concerned over any problem that arises in my district or in anybody else's district. I hope in the future that I will, as the hon. gentleman pointed out, be more preceptive in the fact when I present a petition that it is not a photocopy. Believe me I can assure the hon. gentleman one thing, give me as long in the House that they have been in and I will be able to tell those people a few things. AN HON.

ME!1BER: You will not be here that long. MR. EFFORD : I will I will guarantee yc u that. But I am also very pleased to know Ll398 6 June 1985 Vol XL seeing that the hon. gentleman is a member of the Cabinet and also that he presented it to a member of the Cabinet, I feel assured now that he will do everything in his power s·o those students will not be transferred from their school. So I will be willing to - MR. TULK: If he does not do that, he should resign. MR. EFFORD: - tell my constituents when I go back that this matter is certainly being looked after and we will have no problems in the near future. MR.

HEARN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my hon. colleague for bringing me the petition, the real petition, even though, I suppose a petition is a petition, it is a concern or a list of concerns of people in a certain area, and certainly in this case the people have a very legitimate concern. I will certainly be looking into it on behalf of both members and, we will make whatever progress we can to alleviate any of the concerns of the people in the area.

Certainly the problem concerns the School Board, but we have worked in co-operation with the boards, of course, in the various areas to try to do the best we can for the people that are governed by that board. MR. HISCOC K: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No. 27 Rl398

On a point of order, the bon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, we are now hearing the minister saying it is the responsibility of the school board. The minister knows that if the government gives enough money to the school boards then they will be able to have this school open. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That is no point of order. Orders of the Day DR. COLLINS: Committee of Supply. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of Supply MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening) : Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, before we begin can we be advised as to ho .w many minutes are left, or how many seconds in Committee of the Whole? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please 1 There are two hours and fourteen minutes. Ll399 6 June 1985 Vol XL MR. MARSHALL: Excellent. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does 2.1.01 carry? MR. BARRY: I do not think so, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, I think now we are seeing an indication of the Premier' s attitude towards the estimates.

He does not bother showing up to the Estimates Committee. Yeste~day, Mr. Chairman, was Wednesday, I believe that was Private Members' Day, was it not? Tuesday I was out making an excellent presentation to the Atlantic Liberal Caucus pointing out how this cozy relationship between the Premier and Mr. Mulroney is not doing very much to help this Province, if we judge by the budget. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: The Premier has given us his philosophy as to how the Estimate Committees should work.

I was half tempted to ask the Premier if maybe he would write out the questions that should be asked for the Committee and if he would

schedule which members on this side of the House should ask those questions, Mr. Chairman. But since the recent election we have seen a very unhealthy attitude develop within this government. We saw evidence of it before the election but it has broken wide open since the election. And I refer, of course, to the breakdown of the No. 27 Rl399

appointments of individuals to positions in a Province which has been trying to get back. to the Public Service Commission, get back to a , philosophy of appointments on · the basis of confidence, and in recent weeks and months, we have seen patronage rearing its ugly head amongst members opposite. We have seen the Premier of this Province permitting his administration to fall back to patronage. We have had the defeated candidates, which have been mentioned, appointed to government jobs. MR. TOBIN: From both parties. MR. BARRY: No, Mr. Chairman.

Any appointments that are made here are appointments that are set out in the discretion of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry), not to go to public tender, Mr. Chairman. Never in the history of this Province has it ever been comtemplated that those positions would go to the Public Service Commission. It is done completely at the discretion of the Leader of the Leader of the Opposition. The Premier has certain positions like that to in his office on the eight floor, he has certain positions that he is entitled to do by discretion.

Unfortunately it seems that the Premier now feels that the entire public service of this Province can be at the whim of the discretion of either himself or ministers. Mr. Chairman, we have seen it with respect to defeated candidates in the election, we saw it with respect to defeated candidates for the nomination for that party, and now it is coming down, and there will be questions over the next few days, where it Ll400 6 June 1985 Vol XL seems that it is coming down to campaign workers, permitted Service workers, campaign Mr.

Chairman, being to avoid the Public Commission, avoid the interview process, avoid appointments on the basis of competence, and we see the ugly . head of patronage rearing over on that side, and appointments being made of individuals because they are or have been campaign workers for the party that is now in power. MR. TULK: The disease in Ottawa is catching on down here. MR. BARRY: It is a contagion of patronage and the only question is are members opposite catching it from their colleagues in Ottawa or are their colleagues in Ottawa catching it from them? That is the question. Now, Mr.

Chairman, we see again, when we look at members opposite, the sad picture of an administration that comes into power in its first year, it is fresh, it is idealistic, it is going to change the world, Mr. Chairman, it is going to reform the political process, and within a very short period of time we see that administration falling back into those practices which the ordinary person in this Province reject as being improper. Now, apart from patronage there is another 'p', Mr. Chairman, and that is ·the 'p' of propaganda. Now, Mr.

Chairman, we have seen a steady stream of this flowing out of the Premier's office, out of the executive office, little brochures that are printed with the taxpayer's money. We have nothing against political propaganda in terms of party No. 27 Rl400

messages being sent out but it is the party, Mr. Chairman, that should pay for political propaganda and not the taxpayer, not government. When we send out a message on behalf of this party, we do not do it with the taxpayers' dollars. Members opposite, the Premier specifically, has been continuously engaged in a process of using the taxpayers dollar · of this Province to send out these little brochures. And, Mr. Chairman, in addition we see members opposite, such as the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) • I get newspapers in my · office from various parts of the Province.

A couple of days ago I got the latest edition of The Senior Citizens News and lo and behold what do I see, a full page ad by the Minister of Transportation. Now the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms), has had a few ads here and there, but the Minister of Transportation seems to have gone beyond anything that the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands, in his wildest dreams, in his utter audacity would ever dare. The Minister of Transportation knows no bounds. It is now full page ads with pictures of the minister SJ?ewing out pure propaganda, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the party in power.

It has nothing to do, Mr. Chairman, with getting the job done in terms of creating jobs which everybody seems to feel, at least they say, members opposite on the other side say that should be the prime task, job creation. I would like the Minister of Transportation to get up and describe how these full page ads are going to create jobs, other than the job in the printing Ll401 6 June 1985 Vol XL service that is putting out the publication. Mr. Chairman, there is an other "p", · we have patronage, we have propaganda, and Mr.

Chairman, we also have privilege, privilege in the sense that members of the House of Assembly si ttinq on the government side of the House are given privileges which members on this side are . not given, Mr. Chairman. And I would like the Premier, and I do not want the Minister without Portfolio, the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) to get up and give us his other two "p's", namely "pious platitudes. • I want the Premier of this Province, whose initials are npp•, to talk about these three other "p's" of patronage, propaganda and privilege. And Mr.

Speaker, the press would do well, and I issue an open invitation to the press, if they are listening somewhere in the bowels of Confederation Building, I would issue an open invitation to the press to come down and examine the offices that are made available to Government MHA' s and compare them with the offices made available to Opposition MBA's. We see a deliberate attempt to downgrade the ability of the Opposition to provide the services which the people of this Province wish them to provide, which their constituents need them to provide. We see a deliberate attempt, Mr.

Chairman, for the rankest of gross partisan reasons to do everything possible to make it difficult for the Opposition to do its job. AN HON. MEMBER: That is rubbish. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the rubbish that is No. 27 Rl401

over there, sitting in the chair reserved for the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter), Mr. Chairman, that is where the rubbish is. MR. CHAIRMAN ( Greening) : Order, please 1 The hon. member' s time has elapsed. MR. BARRY: That is all I see spewing out of that member is rubbish. Now I would like to have the Premier respond to some of these points that concern, directly, the Office of the Premier. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I really do not think there is anything to respond to that has not already been responded to.

With respect to the positions that the hon. gentleman is referring to, we have already dealt with those, · we hav~ already indicated that the government is quite prepared to give the salaries of the persons involved. The employment of these people has been based on merit. It has not been unknown that this type of thing has occurred in the past.

The way the bon. gentleman derogates elected members you would swear a Cabinet Minister who has occupied a position for a number of years, or a member who has worked assiduously on the part of his district in public service is thereby precluded forever and a day from employment in the permanent public service or as a contractual employee.

And that is the way in which the system as it is works and I can tell the bon. gentleman that with the individuals who are involved that the government and the people of Ll402 6 June 1985 Vol XL the Province are going to - I do not know precisely what their salaries are and they will be given in due course - but the public is well served with respect to these gentlemen. The hon. gentleman, you know, it is all right for him to get very sanctimonious and all the rest of it.

He can be as much as he wants to be, and he talks about piety and platitudes and all the rest of it, I can remember certain hon. gentleman who in 1975 was defeated and I cannot see that hon. gentleman when in 1975 when there were -certain engagements given to the hon. gentleman refusing to accept them at that time. I am not talking about the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter), I am talking about the Leader of the Opposition, the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry). As to the matter of propaganda and privilege, I mean that is all the hon. gentleman wants to speak about.

The· fact of the matter is within the limits of the budget of this Province, and certainly this budget is limited and there is not a single individual in this Province who is not aware of the fact that it is limited and has not been affected by the limitation of it. Everybody pays the high sales tax and everybody is aware of the constraints passed upon us by the large deficit that we have that we are doing the utmost and the Opposition proportionately gets as ·much if not more of the share of the public purse as anyone else. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. More. MR.

MARSHALL: The fact of the matter is that they are given ample money for the No. 27 Rl402

purpose of dealing with their constituents, they are given ample money for research. I do not know how many research assistants they have down there - MR. SIMMS: Too many. AN HON. MEMBER: One. MR. MARSHALL: but certainly they have the wherewithal to employ more than one. During the last Assembly they had two or three that the hon. gentleman decided he was going to dismiss. AN HON. MEMBER: We had one. MR. MARSHALL: Okay, well he gets the same amount of money and he has decided to use it for other purposes and that is his prerogative.

So the fact of the matter is, you know, what he call patronage - God, he must have stayed up all night, did he? - to patronage, propaganda, - MR. SIMMS: He read Steve Neary's old speech. MR. MARSHALL: Yes, he tried to doctor up Steve's old speech but, you know, we have heard it all before. It is deja vu all over again from the lips of the hon. member. You know, we are on Executive talking about Council, we the office of are the Premier and, of course, you can raise any question you want to. I think I have responded . to the questions as well as you could possibly respond to them.

I wish the hon. gentleman had made a little bit of a different speech because then you could respond to the speech a little bit better Ll403 6 June 1985 Vol XL than the hon. gentleman invites you to respond. But as I say, I mean, the . points that he raised are points that have been dealt with, have been dealt with amply and fully and : sufficiently. I will now sit down, I will not take the full time because it is not necessary to take the full time to respond to the hon. gentleman, he really did not give us anything to respond to. So I will sit down and ,hope - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

MARSHALL: I treated it directly and I said that the answers that the hon. gentleman want with respect to salaries would be given; the matter of privilege that he talks about or he tries to allege, I mean, we have given ample money to the Opposition as can be seen in the legislative vote.

We have given as much as is available, as much as was given to the Opposition when the hon. gentleman was over here and we did not hear the hon. gentleman screaming at that time that the Opposition should be gi.ven more because he knew full well when he supported the estimates the proportion of the estimates that were before the House that the Opposition was given a fair shake and a fair share of the public purse. As to the office space: I mean, the office space is just not available. There are two members to an office on the government side. MR. BARRY: The offices are four times as big. MR.

MARSHALL: And the situation is that we are doing the utmost and as much as we No. 27 Rl403

possibly can under the circumstances. I will sit down and let the hon. gentleman get indignant again but, as far as I am concerned, we have responded as adequately as we can to the hon. gentleman. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, there are a few items in the estimates that I would like an explanation on.

One, for example, is the office of the Premier under Transportation and Communications: · $100,000 Transportation and Communications; Executive Support $50,000 for Transportation and Communication; Administration $20,500, again for Transportation and Communications; President of the Executive Council - a $30,000 vote for Transportation and Communication; the Resource and Social Policy Committees of Cabinet, I do not know why . they would need that kind of a vote but there is a $45,000 Transportation and Communication vote there for that Committee; Executive Support, Transportation and Communication, $31,000; Administration - $6,000 for Transportation and Communication; Cabinet Secretariat another $6,000 for Transportation; Programme Review and Development - $3,500; Newfoundland Statistic Agency $5,000; Cabinet Secretariat, Classification Appeals Board $9,000 for Transportation and Communication.

There is one here and for the life of me I cannot understand it unless the new President of Ll404 6 June 1985 Vol XL Treasury Board (Mr. Windsor) maybe wants to maintain the lifestyle that he had as Minister of Development. I notice in that vote - the Treasury Board Secretariat - there is a vote for Transportation and Communications for $40,000; Executive Support another $8,000; Administration $3,000. I have not taken the time, Mr. Chairman to total up all of these but I suspect that the total vote for Transportation and Communications, within that heading, would probably go close to or be in excess of $500,000.

I wonder, Mr. Chairman, would the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) or the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) or the Premier explain to the House the reason for these, in most cases, rather substantial votes for travel and communications? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: As everybody knows the cost of everything has increased. It is obviously necessary for there to be boats for travel and communications. Some of it relates to phone calls, to long distance calls. The Executive Council office, as one might expect, is a very busy office.

It is necessary from time to time when one attends meetings on the mainland to take one, two or sometimes even three public servants and, of course, that has to be at public expense. So, you know, that particular vote there, I do not view it as being extremely high. For instance, Transportation and No. 27 Rl404

~ .. - Communications in Executive Support for this year is $50,000 and last year, while it was budgeted at $54,000, only $45,000 was spent. So it is only $5,000 more than was budgeted last year. We think that is reasonable. I mean, the fact of the matter is there is no travelling that is unnecessary. We try to keep travel down as much as it can possibly be but the hon. gentleman must remember we are on the other end of Canada, the Eastern most part of canada.

A lot of the interrelationships of, particularly, the Executive Council office is with the federal government and with other governments in Canada, so we have to be able to respond and it costs money to travel. I think that, you know, we do keep the amount down as we possibly can and I think that is reflected in the amounts there.

Now, the other observations that the hon. gentleman made, I know you can get down and talk about specific i terns and I will be glad to respond to them, but, you know, quite frankly, the heads he picked on to draw to the attention of the Committee, I do not really think it is warranted to turn and say that it is inordinate or it is high. Resource and Social Policy Committee of cabinet have to travel. There has to be a certain amount of travelling there and people throughout the whole Office of the Executive Council have to be travelling. I do not really think it is out of line. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. the member for Twillingate. Ll405 6 June 1985 Vol XL MR. W. CARTER: I realize there has got to be a certain amount of travel, Mr. Speaker, and I know that travelling today costs money. The cost of travel has increased, I suppose, like everything else in the past few years, but I wonder can the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) explain why it is necessary to vote $40,000 for the President of the Treasury Board (Mr. Windsor)? That is a lot of travel. The Minister does not head up a department as does the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Rideout) • I, for the life of me, cannot see why it would be necessary for the Treasury Board Chairman to travel to that extent where the House would have to vote $40,000. Mr. Chairman, if I may, while I am on my feet, make reference to the comments by our leader having to do with support staff for members. I think, certainly members on this side will all agree, that we are · short of secretarial help and research capabilities. Maybe that is what is making the work of the committees, Mr.

Chairman, so disorganized and maybe that is one of the main reasons why the committee system is breaking down because there is not enough research capabilities provided members. We are sitting in the House; we have our constituency work to attend to; we have House Sessions; we have committee meetings; what time do we have to do any research to take the estimates as the Premier suggested we should and study them item for item and do research? We just do not have that kind of time and maybe that is why there should be more No. 27 Rl405

research capability provided, certainly to the Opposition members, because - I suppose all members have a responsibility to examine the estimates - but I think there is a greater responsibility on Opposition members than what there would be on a government member. With respect to secretarial help, Mr. Chairman, again, I do not think anybody will argue that we are vastly under staffed. I am not suggesting that we go out and start spending huge sums of money on hiring new girls, new secretaries. I would strongly suggest to the minister and the Premier to take a look around the building.

For example I am told that in the Department of Fisheries right now there are four top notch secretaries, secretaries of former ministers. Of course, we all know that when a minister moves in to a department he is not obligated to carry on with the · former minister's secretary. Usually what happens is they bring their own secretary with them, thereby creating a surplus of another secretary in that department.

Like I said, I am told that in Fisheries right now there are three or four, I believe it is four, former secretaries of former ministers that are, I suppose, I am not wishing to put them down, certainly they are doing work far less than that to which they are trained and capable of doing. I would suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that in every other department, I suspect that in the Minister of Health ' s (Dr.

Twomey) department - well maybe that is an exception - but I think in most government departments today you will find secretaries of former ministers who are doing some Ll406 6 June 1985 Vol XL menial jobs, certainly far below that for which they are trained and capable of doing. It might very well be that more secretarial help could be provided members if somebody were to look around in the departments and weed out some of the people who are there now that are not doing that which they are capable of doing. So, Mr. Chairman, these are the only things I have to say.

Maybe the minister can, in reply, tell us why the Treasury Board President would, in this current fiscal year, require $40,000 for Transport~tion and Communications? MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening) : The bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I think it is quite easy to explain. The fact of the matter is the President of the Treasury Board (Mr. Windsor) is a senior minister.

A $40,000 allotment is the same, there are certain variances, but within $5, 000, I noticed · as the hon. gentleman was speaking the Ministers of Fisheries Transportation is $45,000 estimated, this is on the basis of last year. Last year, of course, the President of Treasury Board was the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) so his travelling came within the Finance Department so the comparison is not actual. The President of Treasury Board is a senior Cabinet minister and travel is necessary for him from time to time.

You just do not, as a Cabinet minister, undertake certainly you take specific responsibilities for that which is assigned to you - but you also take, as the hon. gentleman knows, full responsibility for all No. 27 Rl406

matters relating to government coming under the Executive Council and it is going to be necessary for the P:r;esident of Treasury Board (Mr. Windsor) in the course of his duties to make certain visits to Ottawa from time to t~e with respect to constraints on expenditures and what have you, but in addition to that, the President of Treasury Board, as a minister of the government, will also have to make intergovernmental trips from time to time, so it is an estimate.

I can assure you, I can assure the hen. gentlemen that the President of Treasury Board, as well as all the other ministers in this government, only travel where it is necessary and if less than $40,000 is needed, then only that amount will be expended. But it is just an estimate as the amount that is necessary in order to meet the estimated travelling charges of that minister. As I would point out, they are approximately the same, as reference to the detailed estimates will show, as other ministers themselves.

Now with respect to research capability we realize the fact that every member of this House on either side, private members or Opposition members, require funds in order to be able to operate effectively, and this government, and the predecessor Conservative government, has moved to make it as generous as we possible can within the circumstances. We would like to be able to provide more funds for all members of the House, including the Opposition.

I do not mean salaries, I mean from the point of view of carrying out their duties, but in that area we are constrained, as well as we are constrained in all government Ll407 6 June 1985 Vol XL activity and we have garment to suit unfortunately. to cut the the cloth, That is not to say - and, you know, I would draw issue - that I do not think that the amount of the funds that are given to the Opposition construed can, in any as way, . be being unsatisfactory.

The hen. gentleman should know that at one period of time, we moved to provide full capability for members to phone to their districts and to make phone calls throughout the Province at the expense of the Province, which is necessary. We have improved the district allowance to the greatest degree that we can to provide for members who live in districts which are further away from St. John • s, and to make allowance for the fact that they have to be in their districts to enable them to deal with their districts and to travel to their districts, particularly for the hen. the hen. the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock) , the member for Tom gat Mountains (Mr. Warren) and the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) , the Labrador members, who would be more affected than certainly, members in St. John's and the environs. So we have taken the amount of money that is available and have distributed it as fairly and equitably as possible. Obviously, everybody would like more money. We, ourselves, in government, would like to be able to expend more money for research in certain field.

But one has to cut the garment to suit the cloth, and I think that this government needs to make no apologies for what it has provided for the Opposition~ We have tried to be as generous as we can. We will look at the No. 27 Rl407

situation and we will do the best we can in the future, as our resources dictate. So I hope I have answered the hon. gentleman' s question, particularly on the matter of travel. Because it is so simple to say, 'The President of Treasury Board does not have to travel. ' Certainly, he has a certain amount of travelling, particularly back and forth to Ottawa.

The President of Treasury Board, as I say, is a very senior minister whose presence will be wanted at intergovernmental meetings as a member of Planning and Priori ties Committee and what have you, and the amount that he has been voted is approximately the same as that of other ministers. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. MARSHALL: I am smiling because I am trying to be pleasant with the Opposition. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W.

CARTER: It is interesting to note, by the way, that in the estimates there is a $30,000 vote for the Minister of Development, which is $10,000 a year less that provided the President of Treasury Board, and one would think that the person holding that portfolio requires a lot of travel, international travel, travel all over Canada, over this continent and, I suppose, the Province. One would think that the opposite would be true.

Maybe more would be required for the Minister of Ll408 6 June 1985 Vol XL Development and certainly, in my view, less for the President of Treasury Board, except, as I said a moment ago, maybe that is needed to enable the minister to continue with the kind of lifestyle that he developed when he was Minister of Transportation. Mr. Chairman, with respect to benefits to members, I do not think anybody on this side would be asking for more. We can probably use more in higher salaries but we are saying there should be more facilities made available.

Now, if the government and the people of Newfoundland are unable to provide their fifty-two members with adequate research and office and secretarial help, well then, it may well be, Mr. Chairman, that this Province cannot afford to have a House with fifty-two members in it. AN HON. MEMBER: That is · right. MR. W. CARTER: If you want to cut the garment according to the cloth, there might very well be a case to be made for reducing the number of members and at least giving those members who are then elected, the necessary facilities to do the jobs for which they are elected.

For example, for a member representing a rural district, I would suggest to the House Leader (Mr. Marshall) that there are many cases where it might well be that there are facilities that could be made available to that member, government offices in my own district, for example. I know there is a government building in Twillingate where there are government offices. I am sure, if No. 27 Rl408

an effort were made, you could probably find some little cubbyhole or an office and a telephone that the member for. the district could occupy and use while he is there. You cannot really provide the kind of service that you are expected to provide and, indeed, elected to provide when you have to be operating from a car or from a boarding house or from a motel room. And I would strongly suggest to the ·minister and to the government that they do a survey. I recall when I was member for St. Mary's - The Capes, the Department of Public Works then started laying plans for a public building in the town of St.

Mary's, and at my request, the then minister provided an office in that building for the MHA. I am not sure if it was ever used for that purpose, but certainly, it was made available to the member. Mr. Chairman, I suggest to you that if the government and the minister were to take stock of the government's facilities around the Province, I am sure that in every provincial district within the Province there could be office space found. I do not mean elaborate suites.

I do not think any member wants that, but a place to go and hang up your hat and sit at a desk and make a telephone call or have people in who want to conduct business with their member. That is all I am asking for and I am sure that if a survey were done, that kind of space could be found. Mr. Chairman, I wonder would the House Leader pay a little attention to what I am saying because it is very important. If I can get his attention, I wonder, Ll409 6 June 1985 Vol XL Mr. Chairman, would the hon. the House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) give an undertaking now that, in consultation with his coll~ague, the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young), that they will do a survey of the public buildings within the Province and see if -there · is not a way that the member can be accommodated in these buildings with an office. As I said, not a posh, elaborate suite, but a single office, in my case, would be adequate. That is not asking too much. It certainly will not add to the public debt. It is not going to increase the cost of office space anywhere. I am not suggesting that we buy or built or rent additional office space.

But I am saying that I am convinced in my mind that there is now sufficient space in the Province that could be made available to the Provincial member. MR. DAWE: And where would you put them in your district, for example? MR. W. CARTER: There are several offices in my distFict. Social Services, for example, they have office space and it is rather elaborate and extensive office accommodations down there. The Minister's own Department of Transportation, they have facilities, wherein which there might just be space available. The Department of Health, for example, they have certain space in the district. Now, Mr.

Chairman, this is probably not the most important issue facing the Province right now, in fact, we know it is not. Maybe time should be spent debating more important issues, but certainly as a member, and one who is elected to do the best that I can for my constituents, I think No. 27 Rl409

it is necessary for me to have certain facilities. So if the member would give that undertaking, I think, it might well be that space can be · found without adding one single dollar to the cost of administering the government over the next few years. MR. MARSHALL: Mr • Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHAL L : We will certainly look at all reasonable suggestions. We are always anxious to see what we can do to improve the representation in the House and to make it more reasonable for people in their districts.

There are a few caveats that I would put out and I am not rejecting the hon. gentleman's suggestion. Any suggestion that is made like that is something that certainly could look at. ·But the financial situation of this Province is precarious and we are right now and this is that, I think, I have heard this in the House, MR. W. CARTER: (Inaudible). .MR. MARSHALL: No, wait now. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CHA IRMAN (Greening): Or der, please! .MR. MARSHALL: borrowing something not even except on- The hon. gentleman I say has made a worthy suggestion. I am just putting a few caveats.

Paradoxically, the only time that Ll410 6 June 1985 Vol XL I have heard anything said during the Budget debate and in the Committee about the deficit in this Province is from the government side of this House. This member of the government and other members of the government say, it is a matter of great concern that right now what we are doing, in effect, in this Province today is that we are borrowing to pay for our grocery bill. So the money is very, very difficult to obtain. And while we are borrowing to pay our grocery bill, we are obviously not satisfying the needs of everybody as we would like to.

So having said that, if something can be done, which legitimately is not going to cause an increased expend! ture, and if there is not some other good reason that is not reasonably apparent to me now, that matter can be looked into. But is a request for an office going to be coupled with a request for secretaries there? ·we must have an executive assistant out in the districts as they do, perhaps, in wealthy Alberta or wealthier Ontario. These are things that we have to look at.

But this government wishes to provide, insofar as the capacity of the Province permits it, the optimum amount of facilities for all members, including, and probably most especially, the Opposition to be able to operate as effectively as possible. So we certainly are cognizant of all suggestions of that nature. And I say that it is not a suggestion without merit. We will consider it, but I want to put a few caveats on it. It is not something that we would tend to want to adopt and to follow unless we could be absolutely sure that it is not going to cause an appreciable increase in costs at No. 27 Rl410

this particular time financial situation when of Province is so precarious. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening) : Order, please. I would like to inform the the hon. members that we have two questions for the Late Show this evening, one for the Minister responsible for Energy and one for the Premier. MR. MARSHALL: If I could, Mr. Chairman? Can we · not be told what the nature of the questions are? Or is this just that there is general dissatisfaction with the Minister responsible for Energy and the Premier? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. MARSHALL: Okay, we will leave it at that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Gander.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The · Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) has just made a number of sweeping statements, one of them being, of course, the only words of wisdom he has heard concerning the budget, and the only concern that he has ever heard concerning the deficit and so on has been from that side of the House. I suppose, the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) at times is missing from the House and at times even when he is in the House may be asleep, but in one occasion, in particular, that I just happen to have in front of me right now, on Thursday, 30 May, Ll411 6 June 1985 Vol XL the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and myself had quite a considerable discussion on the deficit an~ the affect that the deficit might have and the affects the deficit might be causing in this Province.

The Government House Leader happened to be in the House at that time and, either he has a poor memory or he was asleep or, if not that, then I am deeply wounded and deeply hurt that he did not remember that a member from this side of the House referred to and mentioned the deficit. I would also like to point out to the Government House Leader that I am one of those individuals that has to suffer through the sad state of accommodations in this particular building. And I always understood that a member would be provided with accommodation that would allow him to service his district. Instead of that, Mr.

Chairman, we have small cubbyholes provided by the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young), who is renowned for his statement that he would rather shove the Opposition all off in a telephone booth. We have these enlarged telephone booths with two desks put in. AN HON. MEMBER: Windows. MR. BAKER: Some of them have windows, some of them do not have windows. MR. HISCOCK: The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Greening) does not even have a window. MR. BAKER: Well we will get to that in a moment. Enlarged telephone booths with two desks in there, and a couple of No. 27 Rl411

chairs. Nothing l Hardly any glass at the window, if there happens to be a window, leaky roofs, and no room to talk to constituents who come in. If you have a couple of constituents come in to talk to you, you have to, first of all, root the other guy out of the room, and you have to sit him down somewhere and you ar~ all hunched over and so on in these little tiny cubbyholes that we are provided with. Now, Mr. Chairman, I had for a while swallowed the ba~derdash that comes from the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) , and the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young). ·I swallowed that.

I said the poor people are hard up for space. They have no space and they have no money. That is exactly what I swallowed for a while. But, Mr. Chairman, yesterday, strolling along the corridor the door happened to be open to the government members place down the hall there, now I have seen your office, Mr. Chairman, and it is not up to scratch. I happened to look in. And I was amazed, I .was shocked, it was palatial in comparison to what I have to put up with huge rooms, beautiful desks, well decorated, it was palatial compared to what I have to put up with.

Now I will agree that maybe the government members would like more office space and better office space, but in comparison to what I have to put up let me assure you that you are living in palatial surroundings, rather sumptuous surroundings. This is just i.n response to the Government House Leader. The real point, Mr. Chairman, that I rise to make I would prefer to make while the Premier is in the Ll412 6 June 1985 Vol XL House.

I would prefer in dealing with the Premier • s salary and the Premier's Off~ce, which comes under thi~ particular heading, to have the Premier in the House to hear and respond to comments. I think that, as a Committee, and we are a comm.i ttee of the House, we have the definite right to have ministers responsible and so on in the House to be questioned and get responses from them. DR. COLLINS: Are you saying the ministers here are irresponsible? MR. BAKER: No, no, I would not dare·say that. MR. HISCOCK: I would. MR.

BAKER: However, the issue that I wish to get on with I find that I now cannot simply because the Premier is not around. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would · move that we stop . th,e clock until somebody can find the Premier somewhere in the depths of the building. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is silly. I mean that is really silly. I mean the hon. gentleman now is a mature gentleman, I mean he has moved from I understand one party to the far left, to the other party to the far left.

A moment ago when he got up on his feet i:e ga ve a hint that he was thi nking of coming over because he said he liked us fellows or he started to like, so it goes to show another change in mind. And then he got into the office space. No. 27 Rl412

We are talking about the Executive Council vote, there are three ministers, including the Premier, listed under Executive Council and we were able to respond to the questions that have been asked. There has not been a single question that has been asked this afternoon that has not been disposed of. Now as far as the Premier not being here, the Premier is usually here, he was here all day yesterday, or the day before yesterday when Executive Council was considered. Be is presently about public business downstairs.

We are dealing with the estimates and I really do not see the point that the hon. gentleman is making. Now you know here again we have exhausted I think the topic of facilities and that. The Minister of Public Works tells me for instance that - the hon. gentleman talks about our palatial offices - AN BON. MEMBER: Sumptuous. MR. MARSHALL: Yes sumptuous he says. Now when the government changed, or after the election and the members of the Opposition changed and the private members changed, I understand that the Opposition was offered the offices that had previously been occupied by government private members.

But they did not want them because they were not adequate for them they said. They were not up to scratch, and now these same offices that were not up to scratch and they refused to have, they are saying they are sumptuous. So that is really an inanity for the hon. gentleman to get on. Now look, I have responded I hope Ll413 6 June 1985 Vol XL responsibility to the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter) and told him that the government would consider the proposal he made.

I have explained to the Committee the situation with respect to the funding of the Opposition as well as the funding of all members and how we would like, if we had more money, to provide more, and there is not much more I can say. If he had the Premier here he would say the same thing or any other minister. Now what I suggest, Mr •. Chairman, I ·do not know how many hours we spent on the budget speech or in Committee or what have you but I suggest we get down to the meat of the issue before us, and the meat of the issue is this: this whole process of examining the accounts of the Province.

There has not really been anything constructive done with respect to the examination and in order to make it constructive it depends on the Opposition asking questions. And here we have an example of what has occurred in the Executive Council vote as well as the other votes in committees, they just get on the minister's salary, they talk about generalities, they do not ask specific questions such as you - MR. W. CARTER: on a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: On a point of order, the hon. member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: I do not really believe that the hon.

House Leader is serious in what he is saying. For example what ca