Manitoba Hansard — 14 March 1977 (Sitting 18B, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-18b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 FOURTH SESSION- THIRTIETH LEGISLATURE of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Vol. XXIV No. 188 26 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Peter Fox Speaker 8:00p.m., Monday, March 14, 1977 Printed by P.N. Crosbie- Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

TIME:8:00 p.m. THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANIT OBA Monday, March 14 , 1977 COMM ITTEE OF SUPPLY ESTIMA TES- EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN: I refer honourable members to page 20, Reso lution 50(a) . The Honour able Member tor Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman , at the time the Committee rose at 4:30 i had just put a question to the Minister and I take it that the essence of the Minister's answer to me was that it the department finds that school divisions do not accept the implied suggestion of the Department of Ed ucation that the reduced pupil-teacher ratio at the elementary level should be utilized to stren gthen the elementary system at no increase in cost, and it they decide to expand their own teaching staffs in the area of special category teachers, that the whole system of grant schedules and education financing, the whole structure might have to be looked at.

I gather that that was the essence of the Minister's response to me. Is that correct? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Min ister of Education. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman , you know, I don't want the Member tor Fort Garry to take this in isolation . There is an approach I have to administering a department, which is one that does entail a fairly regular and syste matic review of various policy matters. In education, clearly there is a contrast between the approach of, shall I say, complete decentralization where the province would pay one grant to a division based on some per pupil cost.

Let us assume we gave every division, $1 ,800 per pupil and just left it at that and any thing else they want to do is up to them. That's on the one extreme. The other extreme, of course, is a system of cat egorical grants introduced by the previous administration, maintained to a certain degree by this administration, and desired by various people, particularly Teachers' Society and I thought that the Member tor Fort Garry was arguing for categorical grants, and certainly they are a feature of our grant system.

I think that if, in fact, there is need tor review there will be review with those two points of view, those two poles within the range of the items reviewed, it the member follows me. Yes, I think that would be fa ir comment. MR. SHERMAN: Well, I appreciate the Minister's answer, Mr. Chairman .

I wasn't arguing necessarily tor categorical grants but I was posing the question because certainly the Man itoba Association of School Trustees and Su perintendents as the Minister sugge, sts and others at that administrative level of the school system have raised the question themselves as to whether the foundation program is adeq uate to meet needs in those spec ial categories.

I don't know that I'm arguing for categorical grants of that kind, but I guess what I'm arguing tor, or seeking some reassurance on, is that that aspect of education is one of those that is included in the Min ister's consideration when it comes to education financing and that better, possibly healthier ways of providing- I suppose what would have to be referred to as enriched educational opportun ities- are under consid eration along with the basic program.

Because in that area of special categories music, art, home econo mics, etc., there are many divisions and the division in my own constituency, Fort Garry School Division , is one that finds the burdens of education financing devolving pretty onerously upon local taxpayers simply, well not simply because but partially because those programs in the schools require local financing as a consequence of the structure of the foun dation program and the grant schedu les.

I I just wanted to know whether there was any consideration being given to expa nding the schedules in such way as to make it easierf or someo t those special category teaching positions to be recog nized and authorized under the present grant system? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman , there are a whole range of categorical grants tor teacher authorization. These can be gener ally referred to as the special resource teachers. My last checking I think there were $3.8 million provided by the department tor teachers in those particular special categories, they were categorical grants.

So, that is the answer to the Member tor Fort Garry's question. MR. SHERMAN: Well, I guess it's partly the answer to my question and part of the answer probably lies with the Fort Garry School Division too. I recognize that, that there is a substantial percentage of over-grant teachers in that division and I think the Minister is aware of that. One reason why there is such a substantial percentage of over-grant teachers is because of those spec ial categories which are not, in the opin ion of that school division at any rate, are not covered as equitably under the grant

schedule as regular teachers in the basic education system .. There's another question that I would like to ask the Min ister, Mr. Chairman, specifically related to a parochial concern . I have some questions of a universal nature that I would like to put to him and no doubt we will get into that area when we're looking at his salary but, while we're on this particular item, I would like to ask him why it is, and I appreciate his explanation of the mechanics here for me, why it is that in certain school divisions the foundation levy contribute is called upon to contribute 663

Monday, March 14, 1977 substantially more of the foundation program than in other school divisions. There are wide wide discrepancies in the amount of revenue extracted and made availabie for certain divisions from the foundation levy, and it seems to me that those kind s of discrepancies are inconsis tent with the concept of the foundation program which is supposed to be 80 percent funde d from the grant side of the operation and 20 percent from the founda tion levy.

If you take the amount of mone y that the local taxpayers in some divisions are contributing to education costs through the foundation levy and add that to what they're contributing through the spec ial levy, you'll find in many divisions that the local taxpayer, the local property owner is pay ing an enormously high proportion of the total costs of of education in that division.

Now, I recognize that the spec ial levy is something that is controllable only by the school division and I suppose the fight for a rationaliz ation in that area starts there, but the foundation levy is something else again and being an integral part of the foun dation program and having been conceived as an element that was intended to fulfill 20 percent of that program , I find myself wondering about the wide discrepancies in that ran ge. I might just say, Mr. Chairman, that the Honour able Member for St.

Matthews took me to task a little earlier today in add ressing himself to a Private Members' Reso lution on income supp lements for the elderly as a consequence of some things that I had said on that same resolution, related, in fact, to this very subject of the crushing burden of property taxes, and essentially school taxes, for many senior citizen homeowners and property owners. The Honour able Member for St. Matthews described my statements and my criticism of the government's apparent ind ifference to the problem in that area as outrageous and it may be, Mr.

Chairman, that my statements and my criticism is outrageous in the constituency of St. Matthews. I defer to the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in that respect. lt may well be that my statement is outrageous in that school division but it is not outrageous in Fort Garry school division.

In Fort Garry School Division the burden, the proportion being carried by the local ratepayer in terms of his or her share of education financing costs is an extremely current and extremely serious problem and consideration for many many senior citizens and many many property-owners who are in the sen ior citizen category on fixed incomes and pensions. So while I accept the Member for St. Matthews' admon itions with respect to his constituen cy, which I don't know very well, I want to assure him that it's not an outrageous criticism in Fort Garry.

There are many many senior citizen property-owners in Fort Garry who are very troubled and in fact have banded together in in formal lobby groups and organizations to try and make their feelings known on this subject because they feel they're in danger of losing their homes and their properties. Now, I know that the special levy is something the Minister is going to say to me, well go back and fight with your own school board on that but why are there such wide discrepancies in the amount of the foun dation levy? MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know if the Mem ber for Fort Ga rry plays chess or not, but among other things I do and I must confess that when I hear him make a speech like that, I wonder what the next move is going to be and who is going to make it; whether it's going to be the King, or the Pawn, or the Queen, or there's going to be a flank attack from the Bishop or what really the point is. Because the Member for Fort Garry was ask ing me why it is that different ratepayers in different municipalities pay a different amount of tax on the founda tion levy.

Well, Sir, the founda tion levy is the equalizing levy across the province of Manitoba. An d it is set, this year, on farm and residential at 4.7 mills, right across the province. And if there is any one municipality that's paying more than another municipality it isn't because of a difference in the rate, which is the same, it is because the different municipalities have different levels of assessment. And the higher the assessment the more tax they pay at 4.7 mills. And I know the Member for Fort Garry understa nds that. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister is quite right and perhaps my terminology was incorrect. I recogn ize the reason for the difference in amounts being based on the balanced assess ment in each division, as they are. But what troubles me is the discrepancy in the percentages. The percentage contribution from the founda tion levy into the founda tion program, as I understand it, is supposed to be 20 percent. Now the percentage contribution, to take my own school division, for example, the percentage contribution in Fort Garry is 20.6 percent.

That is the percentage ofthe total revenues suppor ting the cost of education· in that division. 20.6 percent of the founda tion contribution comes from the foundation levy. But that percentage varies widely from division to division . I recognize that the mill rate is such and the balanced assessments are such, that the amounts are going to be different everyt ime. But I ask the Min ister, you know, why the discrepancies in the percentage. Why does that percentage range all the way from a percentage in the 20 percent category to percentages as low as 2 and 3 percent in other divisions? MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, I didn't quite get the base that the member was using. He gave certain percentages ranging from 2 or 3 percent to 20 percent of what, precisely? MR. SHERMAN: I based my questions on information contained in the MAST cost study of 19 76, Mr. Chairman , which is the latest one they have done. And these are figures taken from the MAST analysis of total revenue by source. And in some divisions, now I don't particularly want to name them 664

Monday, March 14, 1977 because I bear no grudge against any particular division , but in some divisions the contribution that comes from the founda tion levy and goes into the total amount of reven ue provided by the founda tion program is as low as 2.3 percent. -(Interjec tion)- No. A rural division.

Whereas in some urban divisions, my own them, that contribution is at the 20 percent level. it's 20.6 percent, to be exact. -( lnterjection)- Let me put it to the Min ister of Educ ation this way. Let's take the Duck Mountain School Division No. 34, and I repeat, what Duck Moun tain gets is fine by me, I hope they get more. But just to illustrate my point the total amount of revenue per pupil available to the Duck Mountain School Division is $1 ,498.58. $1 ,498 -that's the total revenue per pupil for Duck Moun tain. The Foundation Program provides - and this is per pupil - $982 of that plus some cents.

The equalization grants provide $1 25 of that plus some cents. The special levy provides $387 and some cents and the other grants provide $3.64. Now if you add those all up they come to $1 ,498.58. Now if you take the Foundation Program contr ibution element in that equation it's $982.15. If you look at the breakdown in terms of the cost to the ratepayer, you've got a foundation levy per pupil shown here for Duck Mountain of $34.58. So the Foundation Program provided Duck Mountain for each pupil with $982 .15 and only $34.58 of that came from the foundation levy.

If you look at my division, Fort Garry, the comparable figures are the total from the Founda tion Program per pupil $771 .48, out of a total revenue per pupil of $1 ,698.47, the others coming from the equalization grant, the special levy and the other grants. You are looking at a Founda tion Program contribution of $771 .48, and the foun dation levy part ofthat $771 .48 is $349.65, which is almost 50 percent. What I am wondering is why there is such a great discrepancy when the foundation levy is supposed to provide 20 percent of the Foundation Program fundin g in total? MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, I have an Advisory Comm ittee in Ed ucation Finance, which is made up of various representatives from various organ izations and perhaps the Member from Fort Garry wou ld !ik e to attend some of their meetings. I believe I have answered his question .. The answer to his question is that there is a different assessment, balanced assessment per pupil in those two areas. Fort Garry has a very high balanced assess ment per pupil, therefore any mill rate imposed on it, espec ially if it's an equal mill rate as compared to some other place, it will turn out a very high product.

In other words, the mill rate times the assessment will turn out a very high product and the prod uct, of course, it's a percent difference in the product that he wants to compare. So if we take Fort Garry, if we take the farm and residential assessment it's $66 million and 4.1 on that turns in $272,000.00. If we go down to Duck Mountain and we take their farm and residential, it's not $66 million, it's $6 million and if you put 4.1 on that, it comes to $26,000.00. So that's the explanation. MR. SHERMAN: I und erstand those mathematics, Mr.

Chairman, but I was always under the impression that the Founda tion levy was supposed to add up to 20 percent of the Foun dation program contribution but obviously it doesn't. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, in total, it does. MR. SHERMAN: For the whole province. MR. TURNBULL: For the whole province it does . MR. SHERMAN: But not for each division. MR. TURNBULL: But not as between one division and another, no. The objective of it was to equalize across the province not, you know, in the total figures that are provided. The total amounts of money that are provided. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hono urable Member for Assiniboia.

MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, in listening to the de bate and discussion, would from not one conclude listening to the Minister and the debate that has just taken place between the Member for Fort Garry, that surely it seems that the finance determ ines the quality of education in our province. Is that not correct? Because what we have, we have children probably in poorer divisions, have less money to spend on education . Is this not a fact? And in my opinion, from what I have just been listening to, I think that this is what is happen ing.

So despite the fact that in divisions where there is less asses sment and people are already faced with higher taxes to raise that revenue, then I feel that surely it's the finance that determines the quality of education. My concern is and I am also looking at the analysis of the operating revenue, and perhaps the Minister can indicate to me because I asked him the other day if he can indicate through all the grants and with his increased finance program that he read to the House when he started his Estimates about the increase, I forget now $23 million total, and half of that was only for programs.

How would he explain to me - I have as well the study which ind icates Mr. Chairman , that in 19 71 the provincial grant program, or the revenues that were provided from the Foun dation Program were 66 percent, in '73- 64, and '75- 47, and were decrea sing while the special levy in 19 71 was 32 and 19 73 33 and were increasing so, again, I think the Member for Fort Garry had a good point that what's happenin g is we find children in poorer divisions have less money to spend for education.

My question is to the Minister is this the fact, because in those poor divisions already the people are taxed pretty high because the divisions need the revenue, so they assess that 665

Monday, March 14, 1977 property that much higher in order to extract that revenue even though you are looking at the spec ial levy. That's what's happen ing so the point is it seems that the financ e department is determ ining the quality of education in many rural areas that haven't got that high assessment area or ins ufficient money so that's a very important point and I think it's a serious point. I think that this is what the MASS study was ind icating, that divisions with low assessment have higher pupil ratios and perhaps lower per pupil expend itures as far as education was concerned.

Can the Minister ind icate to the House, and can he also ind icate with his new finance program, how much will the Founda tion Program finance the education system? What percentage? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman , the Member for Assinib oia, does get to really the basic question for the 80 percent increase in the equalization grant that this package contains. The two divisions that we were debating in this session of the Committee on Supply were Fort Garry and Duck Mountain.

The Member for Assiniboia points out that the quality of education provided in a particular division does depend on the fiscal resources of that division. I would not argue with that. ! would say though, 1 would put in a qualifier, I would qualify it by saying that all the money in the world isn't going to necessa rily mean a better quality of education . Like mone y in so many other endeavours, it can mean a great deal. Ind eed, the principle alluded to by the Member for Assiniboia was contained in a letter that I did send to Members of School Divisions, to the Chairman of the Board .

I indic ated that for many years the provincial government has attempted to bring about greater equality of educational opportunities. As any attempt to realize this goal must develop from a deg ree of fiscal equ ity the government has introduced financial measures which have attempted to equalize the fiscal resources available to the various divisions and districts. Duck Mountain has a low balanced assessment per pupil. If I am correct, I believe it has a balanced asses sment per pupil of $5,000 per pupil and less.

That means that under the Grants Program that I have introduced, Duck Mountain will receive a far greater proportion of provinc ial support than will Fort Garry. Duck Mountain, with its low balanced assessment, will receive $2 15 per pupil. Fort Garry, because it has a high balanced assess ment, I believe of $1 4,000 per pupil and over, receives $25 per pupil. So that the Member for Assiniboia can see thatthere is this terrific range in the per pupil grants. We have not only increased the maximum, we have increased the per pupil amounts all the way through, but we've increased the higher end more.

By that I mean those divisions that have the lowest of balanced assess ment per pupil are going to receive proportionately more of the money under the eq uilization scheme. That is why the other grants increased from 10 to approximately 18 million or roughly 80 percent this year as compared to last year. Because I do believe in the principle that has been enuncia ted here, that fiscal eq uity does underlie the attempt to achieve greater equality of educational-opportun ity, therefore this sys tem.

I might point out that there are many, many divisions in the province that will because of this scheme and the total package, receive tremendous benefit in terms of the mill rate that their local ratepayers are going to have to pay, because of this scheme, because it's $2 15 for those divisions with a low balanced assessment per pupil. And I think also, of course, that the whole package taken together does provide for a substantial amount of money to be put into all divisions, not just the ones with the low balanced assess ment, that attempts to adjust the balance in assess ment.

The other schemes of course, like the per pupil grant at $12 5, that goes to all divisions on a flat basis. MR. PATRICK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree with what the Min ister is trying to do and in fact I would say it's a step in the right direction because what he is trying to do is have better equalization for education where there is unequal tax base in the province and I believe some eq uality should be achieved. What he has ind icated in his letter, in his statement to the House, I think that he is trying to do that where there is a better degree of equalization between divisions and I accept that.

I think it's good. My point is, to the Minister, can he ind icate to the House the Foundation Program now in some divisions may be paying more than 80 percent, or less, or can he indicate to the House what percentage of the education cost is paid through the Founda tion Program or Foundation Grants? What percentage, is it 80 percent? -(I nterjection)- That's right, and in some divisions maybe it's higher than 80 with the ones that have a very low assessment base, which I agree, I think it's taking the right course of action.

What he told us, a better deg ree of equalization between different divisions, and that's fine, but can he ind icate to the House what is the percentage that the Found ation Grants pay for education? MR. CHAIRMAN: I wonder, before the Honourable Min ister answers, if I could draw the attention of the Honour able Members to the gallery where we have eight members of the 49th Sc out Troop under the direction of Mr. Bob Harris and Mrs. Bartlett. This scout troop is located in the constituency of the Honour able Member for Charleswood. On bahalf of the Members of the Chamber I bid you welcome. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, the Founda tion Levy is struck after the whole process has been determ ined ... it's sort of the last item that the department determines in order to, how shall I say, 666

Monday, March 14, 1977 balance off what is entai led. There was a press announc ement about it a while ago which the member may have picked up. lt is a levy that applies across the whole province and my staff tell me that if they wanted to get an answer to your question they would have to go back and calculate what it is for each division .

That information can be provided , but could I ask for a couple of months to get it because they are in the middle of budget, reviews of divisions and preparations and what not and I don't think it means a great deal in terms of what we are debating. lt would be an interesting figure to obtain. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, like the Member for Assiniboia, I certainly endorse the change in the sched ule of equalization grants, the increases in the eq ualization grants ... -(ln terjection) No, the efforts that are being made through equa lization grants to eliminate some of these disparities. I don't think the Minister has any reason to wonder about that whatever. But I still say that there are some awfully wide discrepancies in looking at some school divisions vis-a-vis the amount that is paid by local taxpayers through the Found ation Levy, compared to other school divisions.

And one doesn't even have to go to as wide an extreme as the two that I mentioned, Fort Garry and Duck Mountain, but I selected them because they are probably at almost the opposite ends of the scale. (I nterjec tion)- But even looking at the comparisons for some other school divisions that have a higher assessment, a higher total composite assess ment for example than Fort Garry does, there still seems to me to be an inord inate portion of the Foundation Program in certain divisions and I mention mine as one of them, that is borne by the local ratepayer through the Founda tion Levy.

In Fort Garry school division, it's not far off 50 percent. The Foundation Program in Fort Garry School Division depends almost to the extent of 50 percent on the Founda tion Levy, which gets back to the original point that I was making, not only in this de bate but in debate on the private member's resolution that we were discussing earlier today, that there still is a very onerous and burdensome load being borne by local property owners, local ratepayers where education financing is concerned.

Because it isn't simply the spec ial levy, and in fact in some divisions like my own we've got the Greater Winnip eg Equalization Levy on top of that. it's not just the special levy or the Greater Winnip eg Equalization Levy, but we've got an extremely heavy Foun dation Levy. With all the efforts that the Min ister is making to eq ualize opportunities for education through his Eq ualization Grants, I would suggest that there is some attention now overdue to eq ualizing the kind of burden being borne by local taxpayers in specific local divisions.

One of the big problems is this enor mous spread in the deg ree to which certain divisions have to carry the major portion of the Founda tion Program through the Foundation Levy. I just put that to the Min ister for consider ation. Equalization is fine but we could use some equalization for everybody and while we're equalizing educational opportunity there might be some consider ation given to an equalization of the load.

As I say, I'm not blaming him for the spec ial levy in my school division but I think a Foun dation Levy that amounts to 50 percent of the Founda tion Program in a school division is getting pretty extreme and that's what we are looking at in Fort Garry School Division. We are looking at $349.65 out of a total of $771 .48 per pupil through the Founda tion Program, that's almost 50 percent, so where did the 80-20 formula go?

The Min ister has said in response to others who have spoken in this debate that perhaps the time has come for a general review of the whole system of financing education in this province, perhaps a total restructuring is overd ue and I'm encou raged by the fact that he thinks that that's perhaps even worth some consid eration . I think it's worth a good deal of consid eration when you look at that kind of ind ividual burden on ind ividual ratepayers in spec ific divisions, whether the division is relatively wealthy or not.

There are other wealthy divisions which I won't mention but are in the Greater Winnip eg area whose share of the foundation program in their division paid for through the foundation levy is not as high as the share being borne by taxpayers in Fort Garry. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chai rman, aside from the problems that have been mentio ned by the Honour able Member for Fort Garry with respect to the discrepancy that exists between school divisions, there is also a problem that exists right within a particular school division as to the equality of those who are asked to pay the special levies on educ ation grants. I do not quarrel with the Min ister's attempt to equalize educ ational opportun ity across this province. I think that is a principle that was accepted by the Roblin administration when they first brought in the school program.

But what is happening in areas, particularly those in proximity to the City of Winnip eg, is another problem that I would hope that the Minister would pay some attention to, where there is a great discrepancy between classes of people who contribute to the costs of education in areas, and that does include the school division of Morris-MacDonald which is just outside the City of Winnip eg.

You have a situation where many pe ople in the City of Winnip eg who have employment in the City of Win nipeg and are earn ing fairly substantial salaries -some of them range anywhere from $30,000 to $50,000 -who have decided that their lifestyle would be better achieved by moving to a rural area and in many cases these people have moved out, built homes in the municipalities surrounding the City of 667

Monday, March 14, 1977 Winnip eg. In many instances these people are paying taxes. Perhaps the total tax bill on those homes is around, let's use an arbitrary figure of $700, approximately 50 percent of which is education tax_(f their rebate program amounts to $200, which it does, that means that these people are paying a total of $15 0 in their contribution to education in that particular school division .

A farmer living in that same area who may not earn any income at all, and that would be quite conceivable this year if the drought condition s do materialize, the drought conditions that are now pred icted and which seem to be apparent at least up to this point, you would find a situation where most of the farmers in that particular school division would be paying, depend ing on the size of their farms, upwards of $1 ,800 in school taxes alone without any income at all.

I draw to the Min ister's attention the inequality of that kind of a situation, and if the government is sincere, and I hope they are, about their intention to tax on the basis of the ability to pay, then surely there must be some effort made to remove that burden of taxation on education from people who may in certain years, but certainly not every year, have that ability to pay. And it could conceivably be that this year, if the present weather forecasts are carried through, it could well be that many of those people will be unable to pay any tax whatsoever.

And I wonder if the Min ister has given any consideration to eq ualizing that kind of tax between those who live in those areas who do have the ability to pay by virtue of the salaries that they're earn ing and those salaries are quite defin ite, as opposed to farmers whose salaries are very indefinite and could be nil this year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister of Education. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I have absolutely no desire to try to be an instant expert on these matters.

I have worked long and hard and the staff in front of me have worked long and hard on a grant proposal for school financ e which I hope will do certain things and ifthere are problems with it, I will bear the flack for that. The problem mentioned by the Member for Morris, though, is one that I have had representat ions about from farmers and I think actually farmers from his area, I believe. And yes, I am going to have people in my department, but likely more appropriately people in other sections of the government, look at this particular problem.

I think there has got to be some way of dealing with it. it does seem to me to be somewhat ... well, it is inequitable in terms of income earned and tax paid. The only saving feature, of course, is that the income of the farmer, as the Member for Morris well knows, is an income on which the farmer can use his various taxes as a deduc tible item and that holds as long as there is farm income.

If there is no farm income as the Member for Morris is postulating, then we have a serious problem and I will be discussing this with my colleagues in Municipal Affairs and in Finance and of course with the Premier because I recogn ize it as a very potential and serious problem. ! regret frankly that I was not able to come up with some method of dealing with it in here but I have to say to the Member for Morris that I don't pretend to be an instant expert and I have on ly been in the Min istry for five months. MR. CHAIRMAN : Resolution 58 - pass? The Hon ourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I have some questions which will require some statistical answers. it has to do with the Frontier School Division. I notice that the assistants the Minister has there in front of him has been having a rather quiet time for an hour or two so I think the kind of questions that I would like to put on the record here now to get some information from the department will necessit ate some activity there. I notice that in the Frontier School Division Report which begins on page 40 that the total enrolment from kinder garten to grade 12 in the year 19 75-1976 was 5,360.

I wonder perhaps if we could have some comparative figures for this current 19 76-1977 year just to see how the level of enr olment is being maintained or otherwise. When the Min ister gave us the breakdown of the financial support line here in school grants and so forth, I think he mentioned that the appro priation for 19 77 for Frontier schools was $5.6 million and that he was requesting an appropriation this year of $5.2 million. The teaching staff is shown in his report for this year, 19 75-1976 that is, until June 30th, as 307.5. 1 wonder there again could we have a comparison with the current year.

How many teachers are on staff at Frontier schools in this current year and in the preced ing year, 19 74-1975? As well, I would be interested in hearing -(I nterject ion)- Well, I'm sure the Min ister has that information available to him. I don't have his report here now and I don't know whether that figure was carried in all of the reports. it may well have been. Could we also, Mr.

Chairman, have the total staff of Frontier School Division other than teachers, those that work in schools and those that work perhaps outside of the schools in the school division, that is, in the Department of Education itself? 1 presume the costs of operating the division relate fairly closely to the appropriations. Does the Minister yet have an estimate of the 19 76-1977 total costs for Frontier School Division? And down on page 40 under Major Activities, it mentions some planning grants. Could he tell the Committee how much mone y was appropriated for plannin g grants in that area?

And there are some additional programs listed under Major Activities in his �eport that apparently have been extended to other areas of that Frontier School Division . Perhaps he could ind icate to us in his response which 668

Monday, March 14, 1977 programs these are that are listed here that have been extende d and to what additional areas in the school division have these programs been extended. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman , the Member for Brandon West sure has a penchant for detailed questions. We will dig those figures up for him. In September of 19 76, there were 5,668 students enrolled as compared to 5,360 the year before. That is the first figure we can give you . I don't have the other data in front of me right now so I will have to have staff compile it.

He can go on or I can stand here and give it to you as they provide me the figures. The staff is down from the 307 figure that is in the book to a figure of 299 Vz. Don't ask me about the half, I can't explain it 299 V2, that's a half-time person of course, and that excludes principals. The Member for Brandon West also wanted all the other staff emp loyed by Frontier division, that means the jan itors and the principals and you too. Okay, superintendents and assistant superintenden ts -we have five. Directors, supervisors and department heads -twelve. Profess ional and technical personnel -seventeen.

Prin cipals -32. Teachers, as I just said-299 Vz. Teaching assistants -40. Clerical and secretarial-37. Others -117, for a total of 559 V2. Are there any other questions that you had outstanding there? MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , I had requested a figure which I presume will be an estimated figure for the total costs for the division for 19 76-1977, if that's available, and for 19 75-1976. That would give us a comparison between the two years.

I also asked the Min ister about planning grants that were mentione d in the annual report and requested that he indi cate just how much money was involved in the grants that were provided in that under Major Activities. Another question that was put to the Minister was the one relating to the extension of certain major activity programs that had been undertaken in the past year and was recorded in the annual report. Can he indicate which programs were extended and to what new areas of the division were they extended? MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman , the 19 76 budget figure and I hope this tallies with what the Member for Brand on West's research assistants or whoever it is he gets his information from told him -is $13,288,0 63. A comparable figure for 19 77 is $14,21 2,720. The 19 77 budget increase over 19 76 budget comparable budgets I am talking about -is $924,657 or 6.9 percent. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 50(a) . The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Yes, I asked about planning grants unde r Major Activities.

Could he indicate how much money was provided for that and also the programs I isted under Major Activities that have been exten ded? MR. TURNBULL: The planning grants, as I understand it, are local involvement planning grants, I think that is what the Member for Brandon West is alluding to. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , the planning grants are described here as being made available to Frontier School Division commun ities for the purpose of investigating alternative forms of educational organization . MR. McGILL: How much was that? MR.

TURNBULL: This is a ball park figure. it's about $34,000 for that function , $34,000 provided to these local commun ities. MR. McGILL: Is the Minister in a position now to comment on the Major Activities that were extended during the year-end referred to in his report? Some programs were extended and to additional areas of the division . Mr. Chairman , I don't think the report is specific about the programs. That's why I am asking the question: which major programs were extended and in what areas? If I were able to tell the Min ister which programs they were, I wouldn't have had to ask the question. MR.

TURNBULL: Yes, Mr. Chairman , the Member for Brandon West is working from the report of the Department of Education in the year 19 76 on June 30th, that's when it's closed off and he's reading from page 40 about commun ity involvement I am told that of the major activities, No. 1, Commun ity In volvement that that is a continuing program in terms of commun ity involvement and it continues without any major expansion of it. And then the other second program mentione d on page 41 of the same report is Cu rriculum Development and En richment. And I'm told there are a great number of things going on there.

That can be inferred from the list of items that are set out in last year's annual report. In the Curriculum Development and Enrichm ent major activity as outlined on page 41 , this area of Frontier School Division is beginning to stress and will be stressing with this year's budget that we're now approving, I hope, Vocational Educ ation, Outdoor Educ ation, and Health Ed ucation. Those are the three.

As these deve lop the people in these commun ities will know about them and if appropr iate I will be making whatever annou ncements that are necessary but those are the three areas that are expanded from Curriculum Development and Enrichme nt. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I wonder could the Minister tell the committee how many graduate teachers from the PENT Program will there be this year in the Fron tier School Division, that's the program Program for the Ed ucation of Native Teachers. How many graduates? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Member to clarify.

Does he mean new graduates of PENT or total number of graduates of PENT over the existence of the program? What is it he is talking about? 669

Monday, March 14, 1977 MR. McGILL: Well, I meant graduates from the program this year? How many is expected to come out of the program this year? Graduates? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, the number of graduates from PENT we don't know. That's the Department of Conti nuing Education and Manpower. lt's another department; another set of Estimates so I can't answer the question . MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman , in the Frontier Division there are a number of students who come from Reserves and remote areas where there are no high schools and I believe they are usually sent to high schools in four or five different areas of the province. I think there are some sent to Dauphin, perhaps some come to Winnip eg, some to Teulon and Sel kirk and The Pas. And there may be other places but those are ones that I've heard.

I wonder how many of the total students from these remote areas that are sent to high schools in these locations would go to each of these schools. ! think there may be something like 14 8 students involved in this kind of transfer. Can the Min ister indic ate how many of them are at each of the places? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman , in response to the Member for Brandon West, I know he realizes it is a very detailed question . lt isn't the kind of thing that I anticipate being asked and I didn 't ask the staff to prepare it exactly. They can calculate it though; if you give us a few minutes they'll work it out.

MR. McGILL: Yes, while that information is being obtaine d what I would like to ask is a supplemen tary question . What kind of a retention rate to you have on these pupils that are going to (I nterjec tion)- Yes. And what sort of gener al progress is being made where students are tran sferred from their homes to high schools in other locations . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I'm on the border of parallel 53 which takes in a little of the Frontier School Division and the Minister mentioned a moment ago, Outdoor Education, and that sort of allerted me.

You said that part of this grant goes toward Outdoor Ed ucation -(l nterjec tion) ln the summer? That's even better. That's even better. Because if I've got to go into any more In dian cabins and hear some of your students on yo ur Outdoor Education with a final comment that the NDP are doing this for you and doing that for you on this program, I want no part of it. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, the deta ils that the Member for Brandon West wanted, I'm told he relates to the Home Placement Program, that is children coming out of Frontier School Division that have been placed in schools outside of that division and consequently in homes in those urban areas outside of Frontier. One of those urban areas is Dauphin and I'm told there are 39 students placed there. 88 students are placed in Winnip eg. Other areas through the province outside of Frontier, there were 24 students placed . The retention rate, I'm advised , - 40 students that I've just enum erated - runs ar ound 79 percent. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 50(

a) The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: There is also reference in the report to a Health Program that's being develo ped in the Frontier School Division . I wonder how that Health Program has progressed this year and what sort of plans have been made. I think, too, that the Frontier School Division has a Nutrition Program. Perhaps the Minister could ind icate what the cost of the Nutrition Program is for that whole division. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, the School Nutrition Program cost for this fiscal year for the division will be $263,000 and the Health Program is $50,000. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chairman, I want to check out with the Minister some figures that he used this afternoon in the announc ement with regards to changing the classroom count from ... MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman , on a point of order, if I may. I have on my right here, the official trustee of the Frontier School Division.

If we are going to now revert to a general discussion on grants it would be conven ient for him and the staff if we could let him go upstairs and call down the other person from the Finance branch but I would only want to do that if we're fin ished with Frontier School Division . MR. CRAIK: I'm not sure we're fin ished but the questions I wantto ask the Min ister, I'm sure are at his fingertips anyway, he shouldn't require any staff, I wouldn't think, to ans wer them.

If he has trouble with this, we're going to make an appeal to bring back his predecessor in this position, the Member for Burrows, who incidentally, Mr. Chairman, when the Minister was talking about Kings and Queens and Pawns in the chess game, I was beginn ing to think that the former member for Burrows was beginning to look more like a king in his job everyday. Mr.

Chairman, the Minister I think would be able to tell me when you boil down the anno uncement with regards to changing the classroom count from 28 to 23 in the elemen tary grades, the 28 count applied to everything up to Grade9 , thef irst eight grades, Kinder garten to the end of eight, was the 28 and 23 was 9, 10 , 11 and 12 . Well, Mr. Chairman, approximately, so at least 70 percent of the teachers in the public school system then, maybe closer to 75, would be in those grades, and secondary, the high school

section would probably represent, probably at the most 30 percent and perhaps 25 percent of the total teacher count. Well, that being the case, if there is an increase of 280 teachers as a 670

Monday, March 14, 1977 result of the new grants and there are approximately 10 ,280 in total, in the province, it represents an increase of approximately 2.7 percent in the number, in terms of total number of teachers, in the province. If all of these were in the grades 0 to 8- kindergarten to 8- it would mean that the increase ... if all of the new provisions for teachers, 280, were put into those grades you could have an increase as high as 4 percent in the number of teachers.

In other words if it all went into the elementary grades, 4 percent of the present classroom count of 28 would mean that the average elementary class, if it was at 28, would be a reduction in the number of students per classroom of 1 student per classroo m. 1. 12 rounding it out, it works out to 1. 12 on average. Well, Mr. Chairman, if that's the case there are two things come out of it: one is, first of all, that the classroom count is not sign ificantly affected by the annou ncement that the government has made.

In other words the first impress ion was that the classroom count would be reduced from 28 to 23 but in actual fact it would appear that at most it would change the total number of elementary school teachers in the province by 4 percent which applied to an average class of 28 means that you're reducing the classroom count to perhaps 27 rather than 28. Question number one, Mr. Chairman.

The second question , which I'm sure again that the Minister has probably rolled around in his mind if that is the case which is what he said this afternoon in terms of the total number of new teachers that will be provided for under the new grant system, this would mean that if in fact the government's intention is to give reality to the target of 23 students per teacher that there' II have to be some teachers taken out of secondary.

In other words, if the government is saying that there shall be equal numbers of students regardless of whether it's elemen tary or high school, it would mean that there isn't enough provision here to do it through the additional teachers that are going to be provided through his grants and the only way that you'll get a similar count, whether it's elementary or secondar y school, will be to increase the classroom count in the high schools .. Now Mr.

Chairman, I'm sure that the Minister, before making his annou ncement, must have run through this fairly rudimentary school boy arithmetic and found out that when it all boiled out there isn't that much change in the classroom count unless in fact you're going to increase the classroom count in the high school level. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, when it all boils down to the final analysis it is what it says in the letter and in the press release, "over 280 additional teacher authorizations", that is all it is. lt was never made out to be more than that.

And the Member for Riel wants to go through arithmetic of a manner that he called it, that's fine. If he wants to be a school trustee and determ ine class size, that is his prerogative but I'm not going to act as a school trustee. The determ ination of class size is a function of the elected trustees of the division. I think that is a responsibility they can exercise. The department has ind icated direction we would like to see eleme ntary education go in in this province and that is all there is to it.

I did mention earlier that if we had reduced one in 28 to one in 23 and provided comp letely additional amounts of money for that size of red uction we just wouldn't have had the teachers. lt would have been in the neighbourhood of 1, 200 to 1, 400 new teacher authorizations and divisions would have had no way that they could have hired that many new teachers so one was faced with the choice.

You go one in 28 to one in 27 and I know what the argument of the Member for Riel would have been if I had done that or make some more significant change recognizing equ ity as I've explained it in the House and make some other alterations. I took the second course and the second course results in 280 additional teacher authorizations, pure and simple. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chairman , the number of new authorizations is not a question. We accept the Minister's word at 280 new authorizations.

The only point is that with 280 out of a total teacher authorization of 10 ,280 that the impact is about 2.7 percent and 2.7 percent change in teachers affects yo ur classroom size also on average by about 2.7 percent. But give it a little leeway, give you the benefit of the do ubt, make it 4 percent. Four percent of a classroom size of 28 makes a difference of 1 student. Now, if you are saying that you want the classroom size, elementary and secondary, to be identical as far as a goal as government direction is concerned, that's one thing.

But if you're saying that that is going to be brought about and give you 1 in 23 in both the high school and in the elementary, it can't do it. The numbers aren't there. In order to integrate 280 new positions into the total provincial teaching staff you can effect the ratio by only one student per classroom. Therefore, what's going to happen is that if reality comes to bear and there is equal numbers of studen ts in elementary per teacher as there is in the secondary, in the high school, there's going to be 27 in each one if there were 28 before. it's going to reduce whatever it was before by one.

There's no way that you can reduce, if it was 28, that you're going to reduce it by six because 75 percent of your school population is in that 28 per room bracket. lt can't be done . Mr. Chairman, then the only logical conclusion can be that for the Minister to state that theywere now going to be both one in 23, it just can not be. And I think that the statement that the Min ister has put out is not correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 50(a)- pass. The Hono urable Member for Fort Ga rry. MR. SHERMAN: Go ahead, I've got to check something here. 671

Monday, March 14, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman , I put a question to the Minister a little while ago and I haven't had an answer, about outdoor education and is it the intention for the department to put students on the road as they have done in the past dur ing the summer months, amon gst the In dian and native people in the Frontier school divisions and particularly that part that I represent? Because what I find, Mr.

Min ister, is that they are telling these people of human rights- there's nothing wrong with that- and they're talking about the Ombudsman and they're talking about the Rentalsman and they are talking about several rights that they are entitled to. But I believe, Mr. Min ister, that that's my job.

They elected me to this Legislature to represent them and I don't want stude nts that are not dry behind the ears going around and conf using these people on these various subjects in the interests of this party, and I'm asking the Minister if there are funds in this item for the purpose of t hose students going around there this summer with the same things that I am bringing up? Because these people are being lectured to death by several departments of the government, not only your own and the sooner it stops the better. -(I nterjection)- What are they told? Do I have to tell you? Mr.

Minister, I'm wanting from you, are these students going to be going around this summer talking to these people in their little cabins and tents and everything else as to what this ND P government are doing for they as a people? -(I nterjections)- I have represented them for 15 years and I haven't let them down yet and I don't need students going around telling them what this government is going to do for them because they don't do it anyway. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I am not familiar with the program that the Member for Swan River is talking about. There is a Wilderness Centre Program.

The Wilderness Centre Program is funde d via what is now called, "Conti nuing Education in Man power." Its funds run until June 19 77. This Frontier Collegiate which is ope rated under the auspices of the Department of Education provides facilities on ly, that is space only, for the Wilderness Centr e Program. Other than that, we don't have a program other than the Summ er Experience Program which is funde d in the same way, that is from what is now Continu ing Ed ucation in Man power.

So there is no such program here in my budget and that is why I have to tell the Member for Swan River that I am not familiarwith these programs because I have not reviewed them. They are not in my budget. MR. BIL TON: I take it from the Min ister's remarks, which I appreciate, that there is nothing in his budget for the program that I have ende avoured to outline, whatsoever, for this coming season or for this coming year. Am I to under stand that? MR. TURNBULL: Not in the Frontier School Divisions Division budget, no. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 50(a) . The Honour able Member for Fort Garry. MR.

SHERMAN: I was just going to comment, Mr.

Chairman, with respect to a question that the Honourable Member for Assiniboia raised and the exchange between him and the Min ister, that I'm not surewhat the 19 77 figures will be, but the 19 76 figures apparently show that in terms of the total funding for education, not counting the Homeowners -(I nterjecti on)- the whole program, yeah, not counting the Homeowners Prope rty Tax Rebate, that in the provincial composite for revenues for education, funding for education, the Foun dation Program is only shown as supplying 52.4 percent of the total funding of education in the province in 19 76.

The Founda tion Program, 52.4 percent; Eq ualization Grants, 2.9 percent; Special Levy, 43.6 percent, and Other, 1. 1 percent. So the Foundation Program in 19 76, according to the MAST Study and I told the Min ister earlier I was basing my comment s on that study, the Foundation Program includin g the Founda tion Levy, that is, the whole Founda tion Program, suppl ied 52.4 percent of the cost of educ ation in the province. -(l nterjec tion)- So, Mr.

Chairman, I just reiterate the point that it leaves a wide area to be picked up by the local taxpayer, the local ratepayer. -(I nterjec tion)- lt leaves a wide area to be picked up by the local taxpayer and I think that's where the problem lies at the present time, that's why it is not outrageous and it is justifiable to suggest that many senior citizen homeowners, property owners, are in very severe straits in terms of maintaining their properties and maintainin g their homes and retaining them in the face of rising property taxes, many of which can be attributed directly to school taxes. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, I want the Member for Fort Garry to be very clear about what it is that he is talking about. When he says that the provincial share, excluding the Prope rty Tax Credit Plan is in the neighbourhood that he gave there in terms of percentage, I think that he has to recogn ize that you can't simply exclude the Property Tax Cred it Plan. it's $87.5 million and that is a lot of dough. That's the first thing and that does put your percentage up.

If you take, however, the Foundation Program, the Foundation Program made up of provincial contributions and the contr ibutions from the Foundation Levy, then the division is 80 percent province, 20 percent on the levy. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 50(a)- pass; (

b) School Tax Rebate, $5,000-pass; (

c) Mis- 672

Monday, March 14, 1977 cellaneous Grants, $1 12 ,600-pass; (

d) Assistance to Schools in Remote Settlements-pass; (

e) Teachers Retirement Allowance Fund, $9,51 7,000-pass; (

f) Evaluation, Research and Policy Analysis, $85, 000-pass. The Member for Bran don West. MR. McGILL: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . I believe this question has been asked before, the matter of the Evaluation, Research and Policy Analysis funding und er this item as separate from Resolution No. 49. This has to do with that part of the research that is being done in the school divisions, is that why the grant is separated? MR. TURNBULL: I didn't hear that as if that was a question, Mr. Chairman , I was noddin g my head in agreement, yes, the member is right. This is the grants portion of the Evaluation , Research and Policy Ana lysis

section . He is correct in that and questions that he has about the fund ing of some of these programs in terms of the grants that the department provides are now appropriately asked on this appropriation we are now on, which is Resolution 50(3) (f) . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 50( f)-pass. Resolution 50( g), Child Deve lopment and Supp ort Services-pass. Resolution 50 - Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 80,207,300 for Education-pass. I now refer Honour able Members back to Resolution 48( a), Minister's Compens ation - Salary and Representation Allowance. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, I would like a point of order clarified. On the Min ister's Compens ation, am I to return to my normal chair in the Legislature and the staff leave the floor of the House, is that the procedu re? -(Inter jection) Right, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48( a). The Hono urable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , there were a few questions that remaine d after our earlier initial discussions relating to appr opriation number 48 und er the General Admin istration.

One question which I think would be of interest to the committee relates to the status of the, I believe the former Assistant Deputy Minister in the department, Mr. James Campbell. I wonder if the Minister could ind icate to the committee just what the status is of Mr. Camp bell at the present time in respect to the Department of Education. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman , now being on the Minister's salary, we can discuss everything and I certainly do look forward to a wide-ranging de bate with the Member for Brandon West.

The Assistant, I think it was Assistant Deputy Minister by the name of Jim Camp bell is on leave of absence serving with CEDA in Africa, that is what he is doing. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, is it not a fact that departmental officials received a notice in June of last year ind icating that he had been relieved of all duties in the Department of Ed ucation? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, that was before my ten ure as Minister. MR.

McGILL: The report that we have been consideri ng carries up until the end of June and it is presented by the present Minister of Education whose picture appears on Page 2, a very striking picture of a new Min ister of Ed ucation who now tells us that he really wasn't in charge of the department at this time. But sur ely he can tell the committee whether or not the former Assistant Deputy Min ister was relieved of all duties at that time. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, it's always been my position that the Min ister runs the department and when I became Minister of Educ ation I wanted to use every available human resource in that department to their maximum and I think that while I'm on this matter of personnel, I should say that in relationship to Mr. Campbell, I had what I regarded as a cord ial and productive relations hip with him. He developed a number of conceptual papers for me with regard to education finance and he contin ued to serve while I was Minister on the Advisory Comm ittee on Education Finance.

He has taken leave and he has gone to serve with CEDA, as I say, in Africa. lt was my position, with other senior staff that I met, that I expected all of them to be as productive as they possibly could. I pointed out to them that my style of operation was to get res olution of problems as quickly as possible and that meant going directly to whoever was in the field carrying out whatever responsi bilities are necessary and that as information came back to me, it could go through the normal channel s on the way back up. I think frankly that I have enjoyed' when Mr.

Campbell was here, productivity from him, I certainly have no reason to expect otherwise. MR. McGILL: Is it correct then, Mr. Chairman , to understand thatthe department entered into the agreement with CEDA in respect to Mr. Campbell's services, and is it correct for us to assume that he will continue under full salary rights in the Department of Educ ation relating to pension and so forth? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, it is correct to say that the department has ente red into an arrangement with CEDA, I believe, if memory serves, that that is the arrangement, it's a normal arrangement.

A similar arrangement I think was made with Mr. Hutton one time and other arrangements have been made with other civil servants within the provincial civil service. I happen to regard it, by the way, the practice as a very useful practice. I think it is useful for public admin istrators to go to other areas to serve in governments there. We have a number here who served in Africa and other parts of the world, a most fruitful kind of experience and exchange. 673

Monday, March 14, 1977 The other point that the Member for Brandon West alluded to is about a full salary, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I believe, and this will be checked ofcourse, that the policy of the government is, in a case like this, to give to the individual the assurance that on his termination of emp loyment with the other agency, in this case CEDA, there will be a position for him in the provincial civil service at the end of his foreign engagement. That is the practice as I understand it of the government -not necessa rily that job, but a position in the provincial civil service. MR.

McGILL: Well, Mr. Chairman, it is incorrect then, the information which ind icated that other officials in the department had been notified that he had been relieved of all duties. He never was relieved of his duties in the Department of Education; he simply was transferred to other duties and then to CEDA. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman , I did not say quite that. What I said was that when I became Min ister, I expected to work with every person holding down a job in that department and I did. I believe I have, from the psychologist emp loyed in Stone wall to the ex-field inspectors now working in Thompson, to Mr .

Decosse in Bran don, and I made no exception with Mr. Campbell. In deed I assigned him specific functions which were in relations hip to the development of the grants package for this year. MR. McGILL: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think it's rather interesting that there would be sen ior officials of the Department of Education transferred to overseas positions. I am just wondering itthe Minister of Education has any similar plans in store for any Deputy Min isters or Assistant Deputy Min isters of Education that are presently on his staff. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman , as I indicated, I think that with regard to people like the late Mr. George Hutton and others, that service abroad is a most useful activity for sen ior civil servants. lt gives them a change of venue. In this particular case, Mr. Chairman, my recollection is that Mr. Campbell sought the emp loyment with CEDA, he sought it and he was successfu l in obtaining the position. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 48 (a) . The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, on a slightly different matter.

The Min ister in his earlier initial presenta tions in the Estimates expressed some concern about the problem of attendance in the schools and his concern was not by any means unique. There are many pe ople in the school system who have a similar concern for the problem which is becoming perhaps a greater one than it has been formerly. As the Minister will remember no doubt, it was under a former Min ister of Education, now the Minister of Financ e, that this Attendance branch ot the Department of Ed ucation was eliminated.

This took place under the present Government of Man itoba and under a former Minister of Education, and it was consid ered to be a proper move to eliminate the Attendance branch. Maybe this was one of the earlier steps in decentr alizing the activities and responsi bilities ot the Department of Edu cation. But, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that this has been rather less than a complete success because the problem of school attendance has not dimini shed, it has in fact, I think we will all admit, increased. And I am wonderi ng, Mr.

Chairman, what the present Min ister of Educ ation feels are his respon sibilities in this matter. Is he plannin g to take any steps which will give support and additional encour agement to the divisions who are now grappling with this problem? Does the Min ister intend to pursue the present policy of having no responsibility in the matter of school attenda nce through the Department of Education or is he contemplating some return to a system that did provide some assistance to the divisions? MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Ch::iir man, I did make some remarks, I believe in introducin g my Estimates, about the necessity of school attendance. Those remarks are based on my belief that our society's success, its affluence, its civilization is based on the idea of compulsory public school education. And if the members opposite want, I will dig up the quotation from Waiter who made exactly the same kind of statement about the importance of compulsory school education for a nation's achievement and success.

So I do intend to do everything that is possible within the ability that I have, and the time that I have, and the energy that I have, to try to ensur e that divisions carry out their respons ibility provided by statute because The School Attendanc e Act, I think it is, sets out the responsi bility for attenda nce to be that of the divisions. There are provisions in the appropriate statute for divisions to hire attendanc e officers. These officers are in some divisions hired spe cifically for the purpose of attendance.

I recently had my department survey various divisions to see what attendanc e officers were in fact being emp loyed. And they produced a list of people who were either operating on a full-time, paid salary basis or a part-time, paid-salary basis or on a basis of completing this function of requiring school attendanc e with other functions that they had within the division. I believe that it is a matter that should be pursued and I have certain ideas which I intend to take up with school divisions to try to ensu re that.attendance at school improves.

But of course ultimately, as the Member for Brandon West well knows, attendanc e in school depends to a great extent on the support that the home provides to that child, and the support that the home provides for the school. That is why I have tried through the programs that I have introd uced to lessen the gap between the parents in the home and 674

Monday, March 14, 1977 the school. That is why I have introduced $1 80,000 for payment of small grants to parent councils so that the parents can be involved in the schools and the problems of the schools in a positive and constructive way, and can und erstand what is going on down there because I think that that is the point that we shouldn't forget if we are talking about school attendance.

That school has got to be relevant to the child, the parents have got to support the school and they will do so, I hope, to a greater degree if the parent counci l grants that I am making available to parents, through schooi divisions, have the success that I hope they will have. That is one idea and there are others that I will be pursuing with the division . To the extent that school attenda nce is a problem, I hope that the department and the divisions can work out satisfactory solutions. MR. McGILL: I am encou raged by the Minister's responses, Mr.

Chairman Chairman , the fact that under the present arrangements the department has no direct respon sibilities. Nevertheless, I take it from the Minister's reply that simply delegating that authority to the divisions is not a complete abrogation of any kind of responsi bility by his department for ensuring that The Attenda nce Act and the enforcement of the attenda nce requirements in the schools is pursued in a proper manner. Mr. Chairman , there are a number of perhaps slightly unrelated questions that we have left until this period in the Estimates, that is the consider ation of the Minister's salary.

And one takes us back to some consider able debate of last year and I think even into the year before, relating to student initiated programs. The Minister will perhaps plead that he was not the Minister of Educ ation at this time, but I am sure he is familiar with some of the very extensive and pretty costly promotional work that was undertaken during the years 19 73 and 19 74 and 19 75 to set up these student -initiated projects as cred it courses in the school syste m. I think, Mr.

Chairman, these courses and the work that was undertaken and the costs that were incurred were fairly substantial because they involved printing and distribution of quite extensive and expensive brochures, and there was a lot of man-hours of work went into the creation of these brochures and into the promotion of the student-initiated projects by his Department of Education staff. There seems to have been a dim inishing and much lessen ing of the emphasis on these projects and I am wonderi ng how many of them were actually completed in the year 19 75-76.

How many of these student -initiated projects were compiTED IN THE LAST YEAR, THAT IS, FROM 19 75 to 19 76? And it would be interesting also to know how many are ongoing or being engaged in in this year. This is the whole question of student -initiated projects. How many were completed in the last year and how many are st ill being enga ged in in the school system this year? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to return first of all, before dealing with school initiative projects, to this question of attendance. The Member for Brandon West says that he is encou raged by the earlier remarks that I made.

And I think well he should be because school attendance has been a problem ever since we introduced compulsory education in Man itoba in 1916 . He must remember and I certainly remember children who were truant when we were in school, present company accepted of course. But he has this idea that there has been a delegation of authority. Well, Sir , as he knows, I am a political scientist and when someone says "dele gation of authority," that to me is an admin istrative matter, something that is done by ad ministrative fiat, it is accomplished by any thing but change in the law, change in the statute.

And therefore when he says "delegation of authority" although he may not mean what I mean, I want to make it clear to him that this was not something that was done simply by the Min ister saying, "Oh, the divisions can have responsi bility for attendance." Quite the contrary, Mr. Chairman . The School Attendance Act provides as follows: School Attendanc e Officers, Sect ion 9, subsection 1. "The board of every district shall appoint one or more persons to act as school attendance officers for the enforcement of t his that's Act." And The Statutes of Man itoba, 19 70. Powers of Officers,

Section 9, subsection 2: "T he school attendance officers are for the purpose of this Act vested with po lice powers and may enter theaters, playhouses, places of public enterta inment and amusement, factories, workshops, stores, shops, and all other places where children may be employed or cong regated and shall perform such services as he or they may deem necessary for the enforcement of this Act." Probation officers of juven ile court,

Section 10 of The School Attendanc e Act: " Each school attend ance officer is, by virtue of his appointment as an attenda nce officer, a probation officer of the juven ile court if any, having under The Juvenile Delinq uents Act of Canada jurisdiction over part or all of the territory comprising school district for which the school attendance officer has been appointed, and he shall perform the duties and possess the powers of the probation officer, but only as to persons required by this Act to attend school regularly." Mr.

Chairman, what I have just read is The School Attendance Act. it is not a mere delegation of authority by the Department of Ed ucation. it is the assignm ent and the creation of legislative authority for the local school divisions by

an Act of this Legislature. And if that change was made as ind icated in the statutes of 19 70, the Member for Brandon West must have par ticipated in the approval of those amendm ents to The School Atten dance Act. So I would like to point out to him that what I am talking about is the law and its enforcement and I certainly intend to follow up to the extent 675

Monday, March 14, 1977 possible and necessary with the school divisions just how they are complying with the statutory powers given to them under the sections I have just read out by the Manitoba Legislative Assem bly. ! have indicated one mean ingful way of improving attendanc e at school, that is, you have the parents involved in a positive and constructive way in the school and to improve communication between the parents, the home and the school . There are other ideas that I mentioned that I will try to develop in time.

The matter of school initiated projects, Sir , was not to any great extent a matter for discussion during my depar tmental review of my Estimates with my Department, but I will, if the member wants to hold up my Sal ary on this matter that's fine, I will get him the information. I don't have it immediately before me. He did ask for information about the number of courses comp leted. Why he wouldn't have asked those questions in last year's Estimates, I don't know, but he has asked them now, I'll get him the information. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 48(a) . The Hon ourable Mem ber for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I accept the Min ister's offer to obtain the information which he doesn't have because of his lack of knowledge of the de partmental activities during that particular period . I am sure that that information is obtainable. I think it is of interest to the Comm ittee, certainly to know just how this whole scheme has fared over the period of three or four years and what the present emphasis of the Department will be in relation to its continuanc e or to a somewhat further reduction of emphasis in this area. Mr. Chairman , to go back for just a moment to the question of school attendanc e.

The Min ister has read to us about the statutory requirements and the respo nsibilities which the divisions have and he intends to ensu re that such regulations are carried out and that this will be the position he will take as Min ister of Education. Mr. Chairman, wasn't that really the whole purpose of an Attenda nce Branch of the Department of Education, which his government eliminated.

Wasn't that really what the Attenda nce Branch was intended to do, to go around and ensur e that the divisions did enforce the terms of the Act and to give the Minister assurance or otherwise that the proper activities were being undertaken? So I ask him, is he saying to us now that he will reinstate the School Attendance Branch in his Department in order that he can be informed as to the deg ree.to which the regulations are being observed by the school divisions of Man itoba? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I have no intention of changing the provisions of the Act, the School Attendance Act that I read out.

I believe that most divisions, all divisions, and the Department co-operate on a wide range of issues and this is one that I expect their full co-operation. ! see no need to dupl icate staff by appointing additional civil servants to recreate a function that is no longer with the Department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKEN ZIE: Well, Mr. Speaker, I have a few remarks that I would like to place in the record dealing with the Minister's salary, this important item.

The first thing that concerns me in dealing with the Minister's Estimates is the fact thatthe Deputy Min ister has never appeared down at the desk here.

We have seen a long list of staff from the Department of Education coming and going as we dealt with the various Estimates of the Department, and we have yet failed to see the Deputy Minister, which is most important - the Min ister to stand up and try and tell me and the members of the Legislature in Man itoba that all is well in the Department and they have got a cohesive tight knit unit and everything is working well, and we have failed to see the Deputy Minister. The other thing that concerns me in reviewing these Estimates, Mr.

Chairman, is the former Min ister of Education and he has failed to sit in his seat as we went through this long list of Estimates and wonder ing again if this Cabinet shift of the First Min ister, who said that it was a new thrust of this govern ment, a new direction of this government, so he transferred the Department of Ed ucation from the Hon ourable Minister now of Tourism over to the former Min ister of Consumer Affairs, and that the Department of Education is function ing well.

Everything is cohesive and the Cabinet is tightly knit and that the people of this Province can now see a government that has thrust and the trustees and the students of this province will now get the leadership and the admin istration they have been waiting for. Well I tell you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the Committee, if the Deputy Min ister of Education cannot come down and sit in the Chamber and deal with matters which the Minister has been trying to deal with, then there must be something wrong in the Department. There must be some problem with the Minister and the Deputy Min ister.

I don't think we have to go very far out of the Chamber or talk to many pe ople in the Department of Education or many civil servants to find out real quick that the Deputy Minister and the Minister of Education are hard ly on speaking terms at this date. Mr. Chairman, the next tragedy is that the former Minister of Education is where, in Ghana. The former Minister of Education is in Ghana, as far away as he can get from this Min ister when he is dealing with the Estimates that we are dealing with in the House ton ight. And, Mr.

Chairman, if you think the people of Manitoba in their wildest imagination can understand that the First Minister has 676

Monday, March 14, 1977 finally got this government under control, that he has got a Min ister of Education now who can deal with the educ ational problems of this province and the trustees, I suggest, Mr. Chairman , the First Minister better go back to the drawing board again and quit making those wild statement s he was making in Thompson the other night and get back to the problem of education that we face in this province.

Because it just isn't natural, nor is it fair, for us to deal with Estimates in this Legislature when the Deput y Minister fails to appear and when the former Minister of Education is in Ghana. Now if the First Min ister and this Minister think that everything is well as we go into the election, the Department of Education is running smoothly and everything is A-OK, if that's the government's thrust and that's the way they think the department should func tion, then fair ball. We say it shouldn't be that way.

We think the turmoil has got so bad, the misadmin istration, the poor management, and this Min ister may be worse than the Min ister we had before and we are going to go to the people very soon on that issue and we will find out if our judgement is wrong or the First Minister's jud gement is wrong. Now Mr. Chairman, I wonder and I get letters and all the members of this Legislature and the people of this province get letters about the Department of Educa tion.

And here is one, a release of January 6th, 19 77, a newsletter. lt says: "On the Ide s of March the govern ment hande d out a few bandaids or major grant changes. The foundation program five years overdue for major surgery, a facelift, a nose job, was not changed." We move down to evaluation, Chairman , . -(I nterjec tions)- Well, maybe you better let them have their caucus meeting over there. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Honour able Member for Ro blin. MR. McKENZ JE: "Evaluation" (the newsletter goes on, Mr. Chairman) , "well that's a priority for next year.

Come to think about it, that was said last year and the year before." Go on down and others said: "So we negotiated for thirteen months, settled between ten and sixteen, but the teachers still have only got ten ." And it goes on. "The people continued to have babies and so school enrol ment continued to go down.

The only thing that kept going up was teacher salaries and inflation." On down: "In September the trustees and administrators were treated to their first edition of a brand new span king magazine called MAST and then a big bravo was hande d to the government when they compl ied with a trustee's request for highway signs reminding motorists that they must ... " And the list goes on and on and on. Then you read the president's comment s in this document, Mr. Chairman. The president of MAST, the school trustee's elected people like yourself, says: "Once again education has lost ground.

Once again education has lost ground in the yearly battle by the various departments of the provinc ial govern ment." And I hope the First Minister is listenin g to what the people of this province are saying. These are elected peo ple just like ourselves in this province who are trying to deal with his government and with his min isters and trying to give us some direction in the rural parts of the province about education . lt goes on and says: "The government's financial commitment to education has declined yearly.

The Found ation Program established in 19 67 now has little or no resemblance to the concept promised to the unitary division . Basic equalization opportun ity is no longer." And it goes on: "He has obviously failed to convince his Ca binet colleagues that these changes were necessar y." And down farther, Mr.

Chairman, I read: "Trustees are constantly being told that they are not sure of their priorities, that the school system is losing credibility and there must be a return to some form of evaluation." Then 1 skip over several other paragraphs: "But trustees are consc ious of the une asiness of the public." And that's the point I want to raise with the Honour able First Min ister.

Not only myself, the Member for Roblin, is uneasy, not only the people of the Legislature or the man in the street are uneasy because the Deputy Min ister is not in his chair nor the former Min ister of Ed ucation being in Ghana, about this new Minister of Ed ucation who was supposed to pick up all the pieces and give us the dir ection and the financial responsibility to the taxpayers of this province that we have been looking for for all the years of this government, and it says in this document, Mr.

Chairman: "But the trustees are conscious of the une asiness of the public." And the next level down from us is the trustees, and the First Minister, I am glad he is listen ing to this, that the trustees are uneasy. And I ask him in his wildest imagination if he is satisfied now that this Min ister can handle that portfolio, that he has got all the trust and the fina ncial resources and the way he is hand ling the thing, that they are still not uneasy in this province today? I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that they are une asy.

The people are still uneasy even though all these window dressings and things that the Min ister has provided to us, it still hasn't solved the problem of the taxpayers, the guy that owns land, the guy that has to pay out of his hip pocket and lives in my constituency for school tax. 677

Monday, March 14, 1977 _ But my und erstan ding is that we're back to normal. Now I believe there has been an instance, for example only a few months ago, where a Europea n, a person from Europe purchased a farm and a quota was allocated on application to the Board. So I'm not aware of any reason why that can not be done at this point in time. MR. HENDERSON: Mr.

Chairman, how long would it be after a person would be, we'll say contemp lating a sale and you know if a person app lied before he had bought, this is what he was wanting to know if he could get the dairy quota and I was just wondering how can they get around this so as they could not have this trouble again? MR. USKIW: My understan ding of it is that the two boards get together on this and that is the Milk Producers' Marketing Board with the Man itoba Marketing Board which is a supe rvisory Agency, and I don't believe that there is a lengthy dela y at this point in time.

Now it may have been atthe time that our quotas were und er review but now I believe it's back to no rmal. I'm not aware of any current problem or of any individual situation at the moment that is held up for that reason. Now if the member has an individual situation that is currently being held up I'd be prepared to check it out but I don 't believe there is any thing ... MR.

HENDERSON: No I haven't any one that's current because as a result of the way it was the fellow wasn't able to sell his property, but the property that I am bringing to your attention was somebody that farmed just west of Souris and you were to his place and there didn't seem to be anyth ing that could be done at that time and the sale wasn't completed. MR.

USKIW: As I recall the discussion that I had with him it was obvious that they knew very little about the quota situation Canada-wide and indeed within this province and so there was a great deal of catching up on information that they had undertaken at that time through the course of our discussion, but I'm not aware whether that particular situation was resolved or not, I wouldn't know he has never been in touch with me si nce. MR.

HENDE RSON: Well we must realize that it isn 't every person that's in the dairy business that's up on how you transfer qu otas and how it would affect the sale of his farm, but I do hope that there would be something worked out so that if a man is contemplating a sale that he'd be able to at least give some reasonable assurance that his quota could go with his land. lt wasn't really going to increase the amount of milk and he wasn't getting extra for his cows, it was just that the man wanted to be sure of a quota if he got the thing.

So I just hope that some thing could be worked out thatcould accommodate something like that because the people that have a dairy they have a lot of extra eq uipment around the place. MR. USKIW: My understan ding, Mr. Chairman, is that there is no current impasse on that question . Nothing has been brought to my attention in the last several months. MR. HENDERSON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hono urable Member for La Verend rye MR. BANMAN: Thank you Mr. Chairman, further along the same lines.

When the Manitoba Milk Producers' Marketing Board or Man itoba Broiler Board or any board okays the transfer or the exchange of a quota it then goes to the Man itoba Marketing Board or the Su per Board who also have a look at it, and usually this is where the problem arises. Isn't that right? MR. USKIW: If there is problem it'll show up at that stage. MR.

BAN MAN: Yes but what I'm talking about is that very often the different prod ucer marketing groups are pass ing quotas and what has happened in the past is that the Marketing Board then has said, "No, we aren't going to allow the quota transfer." And at this particular stage, and I'm talking specifically now with regard to bro ilers, what they would do then is the Manitoba Marketing Board would send out an assessor to check the sale. I'd just like to say at this point, some of the sales were very close. I know of one myself where it was sold for $20,000.

They reassessed it and said, "No you 're selling for too much, it should be $1 8,000." I question that, it's pretty close, then you're dealing with personalities or different people who might have a different idea of what the particular thing is worth. Now, I understand that at the beginning of last year the different producer groups did meet with the Minister and there were certain changes made. I wonder if he could elaborate on that at all because there were a lot of problems with the Milk Board as well as the other boards. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I don't recall the particular meeting that the member is referring to. We had so many meetings dealing with national and provincial dairy policy that I couldn't recall the particular instance. You must appreciate that quota allocation is part of a national as well as a provincial objective and therefore I'm not in a position unle ss I know specific cases and on which I would have to draw files on - I'm not in a position to respond. There were many discussions and there were changes that were brought about as a result of those discussions but I'm not in a position to enum erate them here. MR.

BAN MAN: Two questions: Are you still emp loying the method of assessing the sales as far as the broiler producers are concerned? MR. USKIW: I'd have to check that. I'd have to check that with the Manitoba Marketing Board before 1 could be sure of my answer. They've had discussions over the last several months with all the 679

Monday, March 14, 1977 boards trying to come up with a uniform policy on quota transfers and as late as a month ago there was still correspondence between the two. So whether they've resolved all oft he questions I'm not in a position to indicate but I could get the information. MR. CHAIRMAN: I should remind the honourable member to add ress his remarks to the Chair and not directly to another member. The Honourable Member for La Veren drye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I also wonder if the Department of Agriculture has under taken any studies to see how the Ontario system is working with regard to the milk quotas. I und erstand, unless my information is wrong, they run on a fixed amount for each quota. In other words, X number of dol lars for each quota, this is the On tario Milk Prod ucers Assoc iation. The problems as mentioned by the Member from Pembina and I have a lot of dairy farmers in my area, the Min ister will appreciate that if you have a real good animal that is producing a lot of milk, that animal without the quota is worthless.

You might as well sell it to the packing house and whatever you can get for it is-baloney so that the farmer is really out a lot of money on an animal like that. I think this is the concern that the Member from Pembina and that a lot of the Members of this side of the Comm ittee have, and that is that the milk producers are highly mechanized now and high equipment costs, high production costs and a farm that is not sold along with somewhat of a guarantee that this person is going to be able to use that farm for dairy purposes it's relatively worthless.

As the Min ister mentio ned I think possibly that some of the difficulties have been ironed out. There were a lot of problems last June, lately there have not been that many complaints drawn to my attention . But, I'm just wondering if the government has und ertaken any studies to see what other jurisdictions are doing. Are they putting a nom inal value on a quota and then sending it out or working it that way? What has the Ontario experience proved out to be? MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, certainly we wouldn't want to follow the Ontario experience because there it was a catastrophe.

The moment that the quotas were restricted or the amount of quotas available was restricted quota values shot up very dramatically. There was great competition for quotas. lt got so vicious that the Ontario Board had to put a freeze on the value and I believe roll the values back, and they have since given notice that within a couple of years they will want zero value on all quotas. And they are moving in the direction that we adopted two years ago.

And all of Canada is hoping to be in the position that we are now in on that particular question, the question of quota allocation and on the question of total milk pooling.

We are, today, the envy of all of the provinces of Canada on this question . -(I nterjection)- Well, the Member for Minnedosa wants to doubt that, I refer him to the resolution at the Ministerial Conference last September in Winnip eg which was passed unanimously that the Government of Canada through dairy policy move in the direction to integrate all of Canada's milk un der one pool, province by province and to use their subsidy dol lars as an incentive to do that. MR. BAN MAN: Thank yo u.

I wonder if the Min ister could inform us as to how many applications were made to the Man itoba Marketing Board for the transfer of quotas and I'm talking about gener ally the producer marketing boards and what number of those would have been turned down by the board. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, that is the kind of thing that would normally come under an order for return but I could get the information for the member if he wishes. There is no way we would have it here. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Mr.

Chairman , I'm glad to be here as the urban member learning something, I hope. I wanted to talk about something and I didn't mean the 500 million gallons of milk but sort of the type that is on display back there on the med ia desk. I wonder if the Minister could explain what his department program is getting in the way of milk into schools. I have a report out of the marketing thing which calls it a nutrition program and it's by Marion Perrett and I wonder ed if you might know any thing about their program or explain to me - that's why I'm here, to learn about the program of getting milk into the schools. MR.

USKIW: The Department of Agriculture is not involved in the school milk program although the Department of Education, I believe, is to some limited deg ree. MR. WILSON: Well this is out of the pamphlet put out by your department and I agree that my interest is because I am also interested in the Department of Health and Social Services and the Department of Education which seem to have had large budget cuts in the area of spec ial needs, and I was referring to the Man itoba Milk Prod ucers' Marketing Board and this is where I got this report called The Big Ideas report.

I felt that if you could explain the Big Ide as program to me then I could go back in the Estimates of the Min ister of Health and Social Development when he talked about cutting out special needs, I might be able to offer some suggestions because apparently under the quota system large amounts of milk have been poured down the sewers. So if I can get an idea of how this thing works then I can maybe apply itto the Minister of Health's Bud get when it comes to dealing with special needs in the core areas. In other words getting the milk into the schools and the educ ation for nutrition or what-have-you. 680

Monday, March 14, 1977 MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, the member suggested that milk is being poured down the sewers. I have no knowledge of that at this particular time. lt has occurred almost every year, at the peak period of production , where milk was skimmed off and so on, which was dumpe d but certainly not at this particular juncture. Sec ond ly, the report or the document that he is referr ing to is a document put out by the Milk Producers' Marketing Board, it is not a departmental function. it's a prod ucer board docu ment. MR.

WIL SON: Maybe the Min ister could just give me his own personal observations because it seems that we have so many harmful junk foods going into the schools that I'm here, after reading this report which is rather an enthusiastic idea, it's called The Big Id eas. I wond er if the Minister could explain if it's underway or is it being carried out or basically, I'm asking like the first question, how is the milk getting into the schools, so that I can go back to the other estimates and be able to lend a little comment to the Minister of Health who is not here of course. MR. USKIW: Well again, Mr.

Chairman, it's something that we're not involved in as a department other than through the producer marketing board. I don't know with what co-operation of the Man itoba Board. Distribution and promotion of material for milk cons umption through the school program. I have no particular knowledge of even that document that the member is reading from. I don't recall seeing it. MR.

WIL SON: Well, again my concern was to try to get the idea of how this milk gets into the schools and the whole program, because under edu cation the core area people tell me teacher aides are being cut out and special needs prog rams are being cut out. The Minister of Health tells me that under Day Care they can't serve hot meals because they don't get within their budget. So, l'llleave it at that, but the report here was very encour aging and I just wanted to educate myself about how we get milk into the schools and how we get this program across through the educational department.

Maybe one of my colleagues down here might have something to say if he could lend any help in that regard. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Thank you Mr. Chairman.

I'm going to get away from the milk marketing and possibly into something that isn 't altogether in the realm of the Min ister of Agriculture of Manitoba either, but it seems that we're having quite a bit of unrest amon gst the advisory group appointed to the Wheat Board, elected to the Wheat Board , like Mitchell and the fellow from Alberta who are now claiming that there is sixty cents unaccounted for in final payments in wheat. Rye, I don 't think has been specified. But we find that under the Marketing Board that we have an initial payment coming out at $3.00. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , I rise on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member on a point of order? MR. USKIW: Yes, we have no item before us at the present time having to do with the Canad ian Wheat Board. The member is clearly out of order. We are not debating Wheat Board expenditur es. We have no jurisdiction there whatever. MR. FERGUSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, as the Minister of Agriculture for Man itoba, I'll ask the Minister then what is he doing to represent the farmers of Man itoba? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. We have no item before us relative to that question .

If he wants to debate it on my salary he will be free to do so. We are dea ling here with the Man itoba Marketing Board which has nothing to do with the Canad ian Wheat Board. He can raise the Canad ian Wheat Board as he wishes when we get to the point of the Minister's salary which allows him to raise any question of Government policy, but right now we are dealing with a very specific item. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 14 {

b) Man itoba Marketing Board. The Honour able Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: That's qu ite okay, Mr. Chairman, we'll wait until we come to the Min ister's salary. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Rock Lake. MR. EI NARSON: Mr. Chairman, to just get back briefly to the comments and the questions posed to the Minister from my colleague from Wolseley. You know the Min ister, he seems to use these Marketing Boards as a scapegoat for giving answers to questions, I think, that are properly put by this Committee.

And the Man itoba Milk Prod ucers Marketing Board which is one of them and in this report it tells us about the program, milk suppl ies and what-have-you and what they're doing through the nutritional program for such places as the school divisions within the City of Winn ipeg. You know, Mr. Chairman , with the serious problems thatthe dairymen had last summer -1 can tell you an example in St. Claude where this dairyman had fulfilled his quota, the penalty was so severe that he couldn't deliver any mor e milk.

As a result he decide d one morn ing, he says, why should I throw this down the drain, I'll invite all the people in the town to come out and help themselves. And when the town found out about it, because the truck goes outwith bottled milk for the retail business and takes milk back, but this particular morning when he went out he found there was no busine ss. So it was 681

reported to the inspector and the inspector went out to this particular farm to find out what was going on . Mr. Chairman, I would like to tell you, that it's notfor quote in this Comm ittee what this farmer said to this inspector and the inspector never did come back again. This is the height of the real difficulties that the dairymen were facing under the Man itoba Milk Prod ucers Marketing Board . And I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that here was a time when there was milk that was surplus and was being poured down the drain if it hadn't been used by people in say the town of St. Claude.

And I know I can quote you many other areas. So, I'm wondering, when we ask the Minister questions of his department, this is the Man itoba Milk Producers Marketing Board in this case, what is being done, what is the liaison, from a report made like this between his department, the Man itoba Milk Producers Marketing Board and I don't know, someone else - there may be a home econ omist or something who is giving lectures in the various schools as to how valuable a nutrition milk is. So I would like some comments from the Min ister on this. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , as far as the home econom ists are concerned, the Department of Health is now involved with the home economics groups, part of the group which was transferr ed from this depar tment to that department, and I might say over the objections of members opposite at the time. And that is one of the functions that they may be performing, I'm not sure that they are, but I gather there has been some input there. They are trying to deal with hard-core need situations in the urban areas.

With respect to the arguments about surplus milk prod uction last year, I don't know whether the Member for Rock Lake isn't presenting us with an argument that the way to solve Canada's milk surplus problem is to allow everyo ne to produce as much as they want and to scrap the regulations both national and provincial that do exist. I would like to know whether that is what he is advocating because I know he is very critical about constrained production which took place last year in order to maintain our production within our market potent ial.

I am wondering whether he is advocating that we produce far beyond what the market can absorb and whether he is advocating tl-•e abolition of provincial and national marketing systems as they relate to milk? MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman , I have never made any advocation in any of my comments. MR. USKIW: I invite you to. MR. EINARSON: Oh, that's a big difference, Mr. Chairman. The Minister invites me to. He would like to de bate here for the rest of the night on this one subject. I'm not interested in that.

I'm concerned about the problems that have been created and all I'm tryi ng to ascertain, was there any dialogue between the Man itoba Milk Prod ucers Marketing Board and any officials of the Department of Health? He is now telling us possibly that some of the home econ omists that were removed from the rural areas have been brought into the city and he says I objected to it and I objected very seriously because I think those people were performing a useful service in the rural areas. I have no objections to that kind of service being provided in the city, but not at the expense of rural Man itoba, Mr. Chairman.

I think that the government would have been much more and better advised if they'd have probably increased the number of home econom ists if that service was necessary in the City of Winnip eg. I have no objection to that. But I'm wondering if there was any dialogue? Has the Man itoba Milk Produ cers Marketing Board informed the Minister as to what dialogue went on between, say, the school boards in the City of Win nipeg as to whether there was a possibility of al locating, because this is a report for up to December, 19 76 as I und erstand .

Was there any dialogue went on last summer between, say, if there were home economists or whoever it was, with the Department of Health and his department as to what we could do or how best we could make use of that surplus milk for that period of time? MR. USKIW: No, Mr. Chairman , that would not be the kind of relationsh ip that one would nor mally have. The Milk Producers Marketing Board of course did not consult with us on all of their c::ctivities. lt is only where it involves provincial and national dairy policy that we are very much in consu ltation.

The rest of it is a day-to-day operation of their Board , which we don't have anyth ing to do with or virtually nothing to do with. In terms of what they have attempted to do with other departments, I am not at all aware of. The member is wrong when he suggests that we transferred home econo mists from rural Man itoba to Winnip eg . No one suggested such a thing nor did we do that.

We transferred the central home economic s group headquar tered in the Norquay Building, as I re call it, to the Department of Health to serve as both Agriculture and Health. lt had nothing to do with the transfer of rural people to Win nipeg. MR. EINARSON: I would like to suggest to the Min ister, through yo u, Mr. Chairman, that a home econom ist in Portage la Prairie doesn't do a group of people or people who require the services over in Cartwright, which in the southwest corner of my constituency - a long ways away ... So on that point and we're getting away from the subject matter, Mr.

Chairman, but the Min ister, when he brings up that kind of comment, I would suggest that he has done an awful lot to remove the services to rural 682 Monday, March 14, 1977

Monday, March 14, 1977 people when they removed, I believe it was five home econom ists from rural Man itoba. I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong, Mr. Chairman, but I believe there were five. MR. CHAIRMAN: I do thank the Hon ourable Member for remindin g me that we were straying just a little off the topic of the Man itoba Marke ting Board. The Honour able Min ister. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , I don't want to respond to that if we are off the subject, unless you want to allow me the latitude to point out that the two positions that were transferred were not transferred to Win nipeg, they were tran sferred to northern Man itoba, two out of the total. MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I won't dwell any more on the home econom ists, we can probably do that later on.

But it seems to me that the Minister's department, and here we are talking about the Manitoba Milk Producers Marketing Board , either are not conversing with the Minister, they're not informing the Minister as to what is going on within their Board's operation -a nd I'm given to under stand that is one of their responsibilities, to inform the Min ister as to what is going on within the ambit of this Board submitting a report of this kind. lt's an annual report, Mr.

Chairman, and what is contained in that report, it appears to me that the Min ister, whether he is not concerned or doesn't give a damn as to what's happening. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this apparently is the case because of the kind of answers we are getting from the questions we posed to the Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , it's hardly worth belabouring the point thatthe Member for Rock Lake raises because he is so far off the mark, it's just a pure waste of time. The member fully knows that marketing boards, producer-elected, run their own affairs.

So there's no point in belabouring the fact of whether or not their annual report is submitted to the Min ister or is not submitted to the Minister. Their annual report is for the benefit of their membership and the Minister may get a copy of it, but they don't consu lt with the Min ister in dr afting of the annual report. MR. EINARSON: That is what I want to hear. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: The Min ister has answered it in part when he says they don't consult with the Min ister when filing their annual report.

I wonder, is part of this $1 1 8,000 in salaries, would this Marion Perrett, would she be part of that $1 18 ,000 salaries, this lady, Marion Perrett that's mentioned in the report? MR. USKIW: I don't know who she is, so unless someone can tell me who they are talking about. MR.

WILSON: Well, then, what I will say is that apparently it is your staff from the Norquay Building that had this innovative program, big ideas, and went into the elementary schools to sort of sell the idea that all school children should get involved in drinking milk? lt says that many of the nutrient shortages were suppl ied by milk and milk products, so it seemed to me that somebody on your staff, from this report, was out selling the consumptio n of milk idea to the schools. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , we are dealing with the Man itoba Marke ting Board , that is the supervisory board over all marketing boards.

We are not deal ing with some staff in the Norquay Building. MR. WILSON: Okay, I'll leave it at that, Mr. Chairman, except that it seems that someone in the Minister's department, or through one of the boards, has given the impress ion that there's some great selling job being done in the schools to drink milk and what have you, and I was trying to obtain information to find out if that indeed was happen ing, because somebody is patting themselves on the back by saying, "We've got a program called 'Big Ideas."' But I can't find any thing out about this "Big Ide as" program. 683

Monday, March 14, 1977 MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , again, for the benefit of the Member for Wolseley, he should not confuse the Marketing Marketing Board with a producer-elected board; they're two distinct different boards. One is a supervisor over the other in terms of the regulations that apply. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Lakes ide. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I was enticed into enter ing the debate atthis particular time because of a statement made by the Honour able Min ister, a a statement which by the way I agree with, that we under our law that's provided by under the National Prod ucts Marketing Act, do from time to time accord to various commod ity groups, prod ucer groups, the right to determ ine how their commodity will be marketed. If the Minister will recall, several days ago we had an exchange as to the position of the Milk Control Board in this respect.

Just a few moments ago, the Minister indicated that he would not interfere, or his government would not interfere with how a producer group decides how their product will be placed on the market to the consumers of this province. I asked at that time, at some consider able length, what was the particular role of the Milk Control Board , in this sense.

And he ind icated to me, if Hans ard will prove correct, that we can not allow the producers of milk to determ ine such things as price, such things as allocation of where the milk will go, and that after all was the rationale for the Milk Control Board in this particular instance. I also recall that I pointed out to him that that wasn't the case in terms of turkeys, in terms of broilers.

I asked him the question : Should the vote turn out successful in terms of beef, what super body is he going to appoint that will decide what the price will be for beef, notwithstanding what a producers' board wants that price to be. Mr. Chairman, the Minister can 't have it both ways.

He cannot parade around this province telling producers that they will determ ine the future of their product and the dest iny in how that product will be marketed and at the same time reserve for himself the right to, at will, impose an intermedi ary board, as is in this case the Milk Control Board, that decide s at what price and where and how milk will be distributed in this province of Man itoba. Mr. Chairman, the Minister simply is straddling the fence in a very cute manner.

He cannot espouse the rights of producer boards to control the destiny of their product and at the same time uphold the position of the Milk Control Board in this instance, to determ ine how that product will be marketed . I see a basic contradiction of the Minister's position in this sense. I know the Minister's position with respect to marketing boards.

I know that the Minister would like to be in a position where he would at some point in fact perhaps - and I'm divulging a private conversat ion that I've had with the Minister in this sense - at one point he would like to be in a position where he wou Id become the consumer's advocate. I know that the Min ister doesn't hold that against me for divulging that at this point. And you have said it publicly, Mr.

Minister, where you would want to become the consumer's advocate in terms of protecting consu mer rights in this area, where, should it ever come to that point where he felt, and I have to agree with him, where both of us felt that the primary producer was in fact ripping off the consumer. Mr. Chairman, in this instance I and the Min ister agree that hasn't happened yet, either under my ad ministration or under his administration. So for that point, we have some point of agreement.

But the Minister cannot tell me that the producer boards that he is setting up are being given that kind of final authority with respect to how their products are being marketed as long as he is prepared to (

a) in the case of milk, continue, in my judg ment, the redun dant capacity of the Milk Control Board , which surely has to take away from the powers that we say that we have given to the milk producers. Let's und erstand something, the whole rationale, when we say to primary producers, "Start manag ing your own affairs. Here you are, a bunch of milk producers, you're the fellows that milk the cows 365 days a year. If you want control of yo ur ind ustry, then form a board and board." And this Min ister has made it possible.

We have formed the Man itoba Milk Producers Marketing Board. lt is their product; they work for it and how it is going to be presented on the mar ket surely is their decision. But not with this Minister, not with this Minister. This Minister says, "Oh, no, that sounds nice, as a matter of fact that even buys the odd vote in the country, but we can't trust the milk prod ucers of this province to do that.

We have to continue with a Milk Control Board that will establish the price of the dairy farmer's labour because we quite frankly can'ttrust the dairy farmers." I will divert my attention for a moment, through you, Mr. Chairman, to my honourable friend from Ste. Rose who has some understan ding for the primary producers. That, in essence, Mr.

Chairman is what we have in the milk industry and the Min ister cannot deny it because just two days ago or three days ago he said so in this committee, that we cannot entrust to the Man itoba Milk Producers Board the right to establish their price for their product. -(I nterjection)- Well, if he didn't say that, what he did say is that it's because milk is a basic commod ity we have to have a govern ment-appointed board and of course here is where the difference comes in and the Min ister has had fun with me with respect to governmen t-appointed boards.

We have to remember, the Milk Control Board is not elected, it is govern ment-appointed . it is government-appointed, and they decide what the price of milk is going to be in the Province of Manitoba. Right, Mr. Minister? They decide what the price of milk is going to 684

Monday, March 14, 1977 be in Man itoba, not the Producers Marketing Board , not the producers that work with the cows 365 days. You see, Mr. Chairman , all that I'm trying to do is, if I'm being a bit of ad evil'sadvocate in this case, is to point out the incons istency of this government and the Department of Agriculture's approach to marketing right now. In the case of turkeys, there is no problem. There is no super board that decides at what price turkeys will come on the market. The Turkey Marketing Board decide s that.

In the case of eggs, in the case of broilers, there is no problem, their respective boards decide that. But I find a trace of inconsistency in the Minister's position that says that in the case, we cann ot allow that trust to be trans ferred to the producers to make that decision on their own. Really, Mr. Chairman, what I'm trying to do is help the Minister out and I know that the Minister has over the years - in fact he's got a bit of a name as being a bit of a hard-nosed s.o.b. that has sometimes been a little hard on budgets ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Ste. Rose on a point of order. MR.

A.R. (PETE) ADAM: I know that the Member for Lakes ide is really bending over backwards to assist the Min ister is getting his Estimates through. However, at our last sitting we listened to practically every word that he has uttered in the last little while and it seems to me that this is being very repetitive, because we listened to the same argument here from the member when he was on the other side and it's almost word for word. In order to hurry up the business of the House could you not rule on that, Mr. Chair man? MR.

CHAI RMAN: The Chair does attempt to be as accommodating to honourable members as possible. The Hono urable Member for Lakesid

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-18b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 18b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6b38343db645662ee508cbd353b876c20c49a36b

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