Manitoba Hansard — 17 June 1998 (Sitting 66, 36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-66

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 66- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, June 17, 1998

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY - Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Alben Steinbach P.C. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. - KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marc:el St. Norben P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWA Y, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon ..

Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, He>n. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupensland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P.

SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Tunle Mountain P.C. - VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fon Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P.

4557 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, June 17,1998 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEI VING PETITIONS Rail Line Abandonment Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS affordable transportation is a critical component of grain production; and

WHEREAS under the Crow rate benefit, Manitoba was the cheapest place on the Prairies from which to ship grain but became the most expensive following the abolishment of the Crow rate; and

WHEREAS the Canada Transportation Act proclaimed on July 1, 1996, gave railways the ability to discontinue and scrap branch lines without public input; and

WHEREAS several lines were targeted immediately by CN for abandonment; and

WHEREAS CN gave notice on May 6, 1998, that the Erwood Subdivision will be discontinued in 1998; and

WHEREAS the loss of this line would severely impact upon the communities of Bowsman and Birch River as well as surrounding communities; and

WHEREAS in 1997, western grain farmers lost millions of dollars due to backlogs and delays by the major railways; and

WHEREAS as a result the federal government set up the Estey Grain Transportation Review which is scheduled to release a report later this year. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the provincial government go on record requesting CN and CPR to not proceed with any discontinuance of lines until that report has been tabled. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs First Report Mr.

Jack Penner (Cha irperson of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs): I beg to present the Fi rst Report of the Comm ittee on Municipal Affairs. An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs presents the following as its First Report. Your committee met on Monday, June 15, 1998, at 9:30 a.m. and 7 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred. At the June 15, 1998, 9:3 0 a.m. meeting, your committee elected Mr. Penner as its Chairperson.

Your committee heard representation on bills as follows: Bill 36-The City of Winnipeg Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Ville de Winnipeg et modifications correlatives Nick Ternette -Private Citizen Dan Kelly - Canadian Federation of Independent Business Jeffrey Lowe -Choices

4558 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17 , 19 98 Mayor Susan Thompson & Deputy Mayor Jae Eadie - City of Winnipeg Councillor Glen Murray -Fort Rouge Ward, City of Winnipeg Jenny Gerbasi -Private Citizen Councillor Lillian Thomas -Elmwood Ward, City of Winnipeg Brian McLeod -Private Citizen Paul Moist -CUPE Local 500 Carolyn Gar/ich- Council of Women of Winnipeg Ambrose Percheson -Private Citizen Paul Laboissiere - Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce John Kubi - East Kildonan/Transcona Residents Advisory Group Richard Gagnon- Point Douglas Residents Association & the Norquay Community Centre Linda Eryou - Woodhaven Home Owners Association Valerie Price -Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties Paul Nielson -Private Citizen Leonora Saunders -Provincial Council of Women of Manitoba Your committee has considered: Bill 36--The City of Winnipeg Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Ville de Winnipeg et modifications correlatives and has agreed to report the same, by a counted vote of 6 ayes, 4 nays, with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT

section 10 ofthe Bill be amended by striking out subsection (1). MOTION: THAT the proposed clause 28(4), as set out in subsection 13(4) of the Bill, be amended by striking out everything after "subsection (2) ". MOTION: THAT the proposed clause 28(5), as set out in subsection 13(4) ofthe Bill, be amended by striking out everything after "subsection (2) ". Mr. Penner: I move, seconded by the honourab le member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), that the report of the committee be now received. Motion agreed to. Standing Committee on Law Amendme nts Third Report Mr.

Jack Penner (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments): I would like to present the Third Report of the Committee on Law Amendments. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the following as its Third Report. An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense. Your committee met on Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 10 a.m. and on Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 3 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred. Your committee heard representation on bills as follows: Bill 37-The Farm Machinery and Equipment and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur les machines et le materiel agrico/es et modifications correlatives John Schmeiser - Canada West Equipment Dealers Association Don Dewar -Keystone Agricultural Producers Scott McDonald - Manitoba Wholesale Implements Association Written Submission Glenn Dickson - United Grain Growers & Canadian Association of Agri Retailers Bill 41-The Life Leases Amendments Act;

Loi sur modifications correlatives and Consequential les baux viagers et Derek Kindrat - Westman Lions Manor Inc. Louis Tetreault -Private Citizen Your committee has considered: Bill 22-The Veterinary Services Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur /es soins veterinaires - - -

June 17 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4559 Bill 24-The Crop Insurance Corporation Amendment Act; Lot modifiant Ia Lot sur I 'assurance-recolte and has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your committee has also considered: Bill 19-The Public Trustees Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia Lot sur le curateur public et modifications correlatives Bill 37-The Farm Machinery and Equipment and Consequential Amendments Act; Lot sur les machines et le materiel agricoles et modifications correlatives and has agreed to report the same, on division, without amendment.

Your committee has also considered: Bill 41-The Life Leases and Consequential Amendments Act; Lot sur les baux viagers et modifications correlatives and has agreed to report the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT subsection 38(3) be amended by adding "under subsection (1) or (2), as the case may be " at the end of the subsection. MOTION: THAT subsection 38(4) be struck out and the following substituted: Defence 38(4) No person is guilty of an offence under this

section if the person can prove on a balance of probabilities that he or she took reasonable steps to avoid the commission of the offence. Your committee has also considered: Bill 44-The Statute Law Amendment Act, 1998; Lot de 1998 modifiant diverses dispositions /egislatives and has agreed to report the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT

section 8 of the Bill be renumbered as subsection 8(1) and the following be added as subsection 8(2): 8(2) Subsection 113(1) of The Financial Administration Act is repealed and the following is substituted: Coming into force I 13(1) Subject to this section, this Act comes into force on April I, 1997. Coming into force: subsection 25(3) 113(1.1) Subsection 25(3) comes into force on a day fixed by proclamation. MOTION: THAT

section 20 of the Bill be amended (

a) in subsection (1), by adding "subsection 8(2), "a fter "and 9, "; and (

b) by adding the following after subsection 20(3): Coming into force: subsection 8(2) 20(3. 1) Subsection 8(2) is retroactive and is deemed to have come into force on April], 1997. Mr. Penner: I move, seconded by the honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger), that the report of the committee be now received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Eric Stef anson (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Crown Corporations Public Review and Accounta bility Act): I am pleased to table the Report of the Provincial Auditor for June 19 98, An Examination of Governance in Manitoba's Crown Orga nizations. Hon. Mike Radcl iffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the Annual Report for 19 97 for the Residential Tenanc ies Branch and the Annual Report for 19 97 for the Residential Tenancies Commission.

4560 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1998 Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would lik e to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon fifty Grade 5 students from R.H.G. Bonnycastle School under the direction of Mrs. Mela ney Vermeylen and Mrs. Sophie Munro. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey). We also have thirteen Grade 5 students from Westpark School under the direction of Mr. Wayne Sawatsk y.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou). Also, we have t1.venty-four Grades 5 and 6 students from Stanley Knowles Sc hool under the direction of Ms. Cla retta Shefi"in. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). We also have twenty-four Grade 5 students from Gilla m School under the direction of Mrs. Tannis Corfield. This school is loca ted in the constituency of the honourable member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson). On behalf of all honoura ble members, I welcome you this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Physician Resources Report Tabling Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition ): Madam Speaker, in June of 1997, a working group dealing with physicia n shortage s and physician resources made up of citizens, health officials, doctors and members of the public provided a report to the Minister of Health to deal with the long-term pla n to deal with these shortages. We believe the public should have a copy of that report, that the public should be engaged in the recommendations and this Legislature should be informed of those recommendations. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) to today ask or require his Minister of Health to have the courage to make that report public a year after it has been produced for the government. *

(1335) Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, over the la st year and a half that I have had the honour of serving in this portfolio, the issue of physician remuneration and retention has been an extremely dynam ic one. We were faced with a walkout of emergency physicia ns last year that allowed us in a 90-day process to develop a new model that has stabilized that situation. We went on a major recruiting effort that has recruited some nearly 30 additional physicia ns to Manitoba that have pl ugged those parti cula r holes.

We have worked out an agr eement on emergency doctors in Winnipeg that created for the first time a province-wide structure for emergency remuneration, and we are now into ar bitration on a host of issues that are essential to retaining and recruiting family practitioners and other special ists. So, to be bl unt, I think time has overtaken any par ticula r report. The situation has been dynamic and has been quite successful, parti cularly in the recruitment side. Report Recommendations Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, this minister is so wonderful.

We have health authorities from Brandon- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: He is so wonderful. We have the community of Brandon raiding the community of Winnipeg for doctors. What kind of success is that? We have Mr. Musick, a member of the committee, dealing with the imma turity of the present Minister of Health, saying that Mr. Praznik appears to think he can solve all the problems all by himself. He does not seem interested in engaging members of the community. - -

June 17, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4561 So, Madam Speaker, I will therefore table the physicia n resource report that the minister does not have the courage to do. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): which recommendations that were presented to the government a year ago are government policy, and which ones are not? The public deserve an answer and the courage of an answer from this Premier dealing with his imma ture Minister of Health. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I find it very interesting because the member for Concordia and his critic every day in this House atte mpt to blame myself and my colleagues for every problem in health care, and then when we attempt to resolve those issues in a fa st way when we work with community orga nizations, when we work with regional health aut horities, when we work with others to solve them, and we get success from time to time, then the member has to go down to the lowest denominator in his attacks on myself and others. There is no simple solution to any of these problems.

The member opposite complains about Brandon atte mpting to recruit physicia ns in Winnipeg. He should listen to his own members, because in this House they pointed out that we have surpluses of certain people in Winnipeg and need to have more in Brandon. So, agai n, could the NDP party just for once get its story the same? Physician Resources Report Recommendations Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, in a special publication provided by the Manitoba Medical Association, their regular monthly publica tion, they devote an entire subsection to the fa ilure of the government to deal with physician resources.

An Honourable Member: This minister. Mr. Chomiak: -and this minister. Rarely in my experience in this area have I seen a more critical piece that deals with contrad ictions and fa ilure to follow up and lack of confidence than this piece that has been produced by the Manitoba Medica l Association.

My question to the Minister of Hea lth is: after several years, after these recommendations, after we have been forced to deal with strike after strike after strike and contrad ictory statements, can the minister outline what the status is of the recommendations, including the incentive program, the rural relocation program, the education initiatives that were announced and the program for post-graduate students? They were all recommendations of that committee to deal with the rural and northern shortages in Manitoba finally. * (1 340) Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Is it not surprising that a party that prides itself on being a party of labour does not recognize that in a period of negotiations, that, Madam Spea ker-and the document he refers to-we have just agreed to an arbitra tion in the last few weeks. I suspect that that document was part of the politi cal campaign among its members that any organization particularly launches when they are developing their position. Members opposite know that. They try to sound naive coming to this Assembly. They are members who know it all too well.

The fa ct of the matter is there have been many good things ha ppening in the area of physician attracting and reta ining physicians. They never mention the fact that through our initia tive we attrac ted nearly 30 additiona l doctors to Manitoba in this year to fill the holes in the system. They do not mention the fa ct that we are working with the university to identify training opportunities for those who graduate to be able to go into rural and northern postings before they have to declare their specialty. They do not mention any of those things, but they are happening.

They are real, and they are working toward solving the problem. Contract Physicians Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Will the minister, I suggest, read this report which outlines contrad ictions between his department, the previous minister, his deputy minister over and over agai n and downright inaccuracies with respect to the program ?

4562 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1998 I would like to ask the minister a question that was a series of letters, at least 12 letters, between the department and the MMA about why the government is prepared to fund foreign South African graduates with contract positions in Manitoba but is fa il ing to inforn1 Manitoban graduates and others and fund those contracts for Manitobans so that they can reloca te to rural and northern Manitoba and inform this House as to why Canadian doctors cannot take advantage of the same program that those foreign doctors can take advantage of, including Canadian doctors who are foreign trained.

Point of Order Hon. James McC1·ae (Govern ment House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a point of order. Perhaps of the three questions the honourable member has asked, he could direct which one he wants us to answer. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Was the honourable government House leader rising on a point of order or the right to ask a question? Mr. McCrae: On these supplementaries, Madam Speaker, the direction we have is to ask a question. The member asked three. Which one does he want answered? Madam Spea ker:: The honourable member for Kil donan, on the same point of order. Mr.

Chomiak: I believe the honourable government House leader does not have a point of order, and in fact it is a dispute over 1the fa cts. Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable government House leader, indeed the honourab le government House leader does have a point of order. A supplementary question is to have no prea mble and consist of a single question. *** Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): It is hard to have a dispute over the fa cts when the member for Kil donan does not have the fac ts, Madam Speaker, to be bl unt, because what he is saying is simply not true.

Contract positions are avai lable to any physician who is prepared to accept them. There has never been a restriction placed on this is only for South African recruits. The fa ct of the matter is the South African doctors who have come to Manitoba want, by and la rge, to work on that contract position. In fa ct, in communities where they have gone into fee-for-service rela tionships, they have usually chosen to lea ve because they have not been comfortab le in that relationship with their fellow physicians.

So, Madam Speaker, those positions are in place for everyone, and I would remind the member as well that, through the efforts of the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), we have negotiated an agre ement with the university that will allow a number of their grads to go into practice after grad uation and before they have to decla re their specialty for up to three years. That is a first ever. We have been doing these things and they are real. They will put and are putting more physicians into rural and northern Manitoba. Physician Resources Recruitment Strategy Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I wish to table for the information of the Minister of Health some of 1,600 signatures which we col lected with very little effort, I might add, asking the minister not only to go to binding arbitra tion, which has now occ urred, but also to ensure that we imple ment a physicians resource plan to have an ad equate supply of physicians. *

(1345) The minister knows full well from the rally that we held in Brandon of the depth of concern and feeling about the shortage of doctors in Brandon and rural Manitoba. If he gave the answer that he gave to this member, they would have run him out of the hal l. They would have run him out of the Keystone Centre. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member for Brandon East please pose his question now. -

June 17, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4563 Mr. L. Evans: On behalf of the hundreds of people that ap peared at that rall y, on behalf of thousands of people in rural and northern Manitoba and indeed among all people in Manitoba, will this minister now finally rea lize that there is a problem and, instead of pat ting himself on the back, guarant ee that he will take some effective action to ensure that we have an adequa te supply of doctors to Manitoba? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Spea ker, I have never seen such a display of someone trying to pretend they are not in the real world.

The member for Brandon East does not even want to acknowledge that, through the efforts of the department working with the RHAs, we were able to recruit nearly 30 additiona l doctors. In fa ct, we had so many who were prepared to come to Manitoba, we actually provided their names to other jurisdictions who needed them, because we filled the positions that were there. We have talked about that; we talked about it at the meeting in Brandon. An Honourable Member: Nobody believes you, Darren. Mr. Praznik: I do not know where the member for Brandon East is, and the Leader of the Opposition says no one believes me.

Go to the communities where those doctors are. They are there. Get into the real world. Mr. L. Evans: Madam Speaker, this honourable minister has to refresh his memory of the questions- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speak er: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his question. Mr. L.

Evans: The minister has previously said that the regional health authorities should be more responsive to the recruitment efforts of the government, but does this mean, is he suggesting that the RHAs should be going out competing one another for some very scarce resources to obtain sufficient doctors in the various communities? When will he realize that the shortage of doctors, and I speak especially for Brandon and Westman, is real? When will he take some responsibility to deal with this? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Spea ker, the member for Brandon East, who has been in this Legislature since 1969, should remember that the responsibility for recruitment has tra ditiona lly not rested with the Minister of Health, not rested with Hea lth authorities, but for clinics and physicia ns within communities. I ask him: where was the Brandon Clinic in recruiting pediatricians? They had two that were the largest billers in the province. Is it surprising that they were not recruiting a third? Where was that responsibility? The member totally does not want to recognize the real ities of the past.

We have stepped in and responded and said that there is a responsibility that we are prepared to take with RHAs. We have gone out and recruited, and we have created contract positions. We have worked with RHAs to recruit. We are taking and have taken the steps that the member asks for, but where is his criticism of those who had responsibility in the past? Victims' Rights Amendment Act Victims Ben efits Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Justice minister. A few weeks ago the minister introduced victims rights legi slation.

He said how proud he was to table a bill to advance the rights of victims of crime. He said, and I quote: this new legi slation ensures we never lose sight of the harm done to. individuals by crime. After we studied the bill in detail, Madam Speaker, we were shocked. My question to the minister is this: is the minister also proud that the bill elimin ates for victims their death benefits, retraining allowances, the clea r provision for maintenance of a child born of a rape and the legi slated formula for benefits? Why did he not so much as mention this when he introduced the bill? *

(1350) 4564 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1998 Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the committee considering that bill will indeed examine all those issues, and the committee will have an opportunity to discuss that. We know that this member has brought a number of cases before this House where the fa cts simply were not correct. Indet:d, the other day he stood up and admitted the-he didl not know the fa cts even though he was making alleg ations. So, Madam Speaker, in respect of this par ticular bill, we will deal with it in committee. Point of Order Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Beauchesne's 41 7, I think, is very succinct and to the point, that the minister's answer should deal with the fa cts of the questions raised. I listened very caref ully to the question of the mt�mber for St. Johns, who cle arly asked the minister why he did not make mention in his bill of the serious rights that have been eliminated from Manitobans. The minister answered that question in the first part of his prea mble, and then went off on his usual tangent of attacking the member for St. Johns on a whole series of unrelated matters.

I ask you to call him to order and either answer the question-if he does not want to answer the question, he can sit down. Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. Hon. James McCr.ae (Govern ment House Leader): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, I do not know why the honourab le member for Kildonan would suggest that the rules for members on his side of the House ought to be different and more special than the rules for honoura ble members on this side of the House.

He takes offence that the honourable minister might somehow chide or scold the honourable member for some of the positions taken by the NDP, and yet it is quite acceptable for that to come from his side of the House. Madam Speaker, I think our skin is getting just a bit thin on some of these things, and in any event, there is nothing in Beauchesne that I know of that would point to a point of order in this particular instance.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Kildonan, the minister did respond to a portion of the question, but in my opinion in the end did contravene Bea uchesne 41 7 by provoking debate. * * * Mr. Mackintosh: A supplementary then: why does the minister not tell Manitobans what he is actual ly doing to victims by this bill, and that this government is also cutting the time to apply for benefits in half , is elim inating a level of appeal, is threaten ing victims with an arbitrary cap on benefits?

Why is he somehow neglecting to tell Manitobans he is gutting our victim compensation system? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, the particular bill was the subject of a lot of consideration within the department. Indeed, the member knows that the Prairie Research Associates did a long study in respect of victims legislation and made certain recommendations. Indeed, the member specifically asked us to follow those recommendations and that if we did not, he would. We have followed many of those recommendations, and if the member believes that there are oversights, certainly that is the- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as I have indica ted, if there are issues that need to be addressed, certainly they can be addressed in committee where there will be an opportunity to hear from the public, to hear from the members, and certainly this House will give consideration to any worthwhile suggestion. Mr. Mackintos h: Given that answer, would the minister, instead of fa ntasizing about our views on -

June 17, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4565 recommendations about the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board by Prairie Research Associates, now admit that he is indeed following their recommendation to gut victim compensation and eliminate benefits, put caps in, give cabinet jurisdiction and discretion rather than legislation? For what reason, Madam Speaker? Because it is recommended that these changes recover additional revenues. It is the bottom line. W auld he admit it? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, the Prairie Research Associates conducted a very detailed study which I understood the member for St.

Johns supported. Now, for some reason, he appears to have changed his mind, and I do not know what has caused that. But- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. *

(1355) Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, Prairie Research Associates made certain recommendations to the departm ent that would, in their opinion, enhance the del ivery of services to victims. This government has consistently enhanced the rights given to victims, including the $225,000 program that is done on an annual basis to support victims program s in seven communities, including some of the communities that members opposite represent. Gaming Facilities Cash Machines Mr. Kevin Lam oureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Lotteries.

We are now seeing further expansion of banking machines known in the private sector, and a great deal of concern is where these new private sector banking machines could be going, or cash machines, if I put it that way. My question to the Minister responsible for Lotteries: can the minister indica te very clearly as to the position of the government with respect to banking machines and proximity to VL T machines? Hon.

Eric Stef anson (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Spea ker, I think the member for Inkster knows the restriction that is currently in place as it relates to utilizing debit cards in lic ensed establ ishments that have VL T machines, that that is not permitted. An individual cannot utilize their debit card at a hotel lounge or other fac il ity that has VL Ts, get cash and then go and pla y the VL Ts.

That would be a breach of their agreement, their VL T agreement, and any breach of the ag reement leads to suspension and poten tially ultima te, comple te elim ination of the machines. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, is it safe then to assume that you cannot, for example, have a VL T lounge and down the hall a cash machine? Mr.

Stef anson: Madam Speaker, we do not control where organ izations and the banking industry decide to put in place various bank machines in malls and other jurisdictions, but I think the important point is the point that I have already made for the member, that in any li censed establishment that has VL Ts, the owner or proprietor of that establishment cannot allow a patron or a customer to come forward, use their debit card, get cash and play the VL Ts. That is not permissible.

That is a breach of the agre ement, and there are penalties that would be imposed against the owner of that establi shment if they breached that agr eement. Mr. Lam oureux: Madam Spea ker, I would ask the Minister responsible for Lotteries to recognize the gray area, where you can li teral ly go outside of the lounge, walk a few feet and there will be the debit machines.

Is the minister prepared to take that particular issue to the Gaming Commission so that the government is in a better position to take a position on that issue, because surely the government recognizes the correlation between proximity- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Stef anson: Madam Spea ker, I am not sure that that is something that we could necessarily regula te, other opera tions, organ izations in a mall, for example, wanting to put in place a banking machine with the support of that particular banking operati on.

I think he should certai nly pay attention to comments made by individuals like the executive director of the Addic tions Foundation that does indicate there is still

4566 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1998 a difference. I mean, the key being that, if a person does believe that they need to get access to more cash, they would still have to leave the fa cil ity, and if I recall correctly what the executive director said, he does believe that is beneficial. It gives that opportunity to that individual to determine whether or not they really do want to access some more cash or whether they should perhaps head home or go and do something else, Madam Speaker.

So there still is a significant difference between being able to access cash right in the immedia te fac il ity as opposed to having to leave the fac ili ty to access cash. I am certainly prepared to provide the member with more informa tion on that issue. *

(1400) Poulin 's Public lflealth Act Compliance Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, yesterday I raised the case of Mr. John Janzen who suff ered methyl bromide poisoning and now suffers myoclonic seizures and is confined to a wheelchair. The Department of Justice plea bargained away 75 percent of the charges against the company, including one ag ainst the company manager. The use of methyl bromide requires an annual use permit administered by the Department of Environment. My question is for the Minister of Environment. Since the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Gill eshammer) on April 14 this year advised me that the Environment department was made aware of this case, did the Minister of Environment or his department recommend to the Justice department that charges be laid under separate issue under the Public Healt h Control Regulation 323-88R once you learned that Poulin's did not have a user's permit while continuing to use methyl bromide? I will ta ble the regulation that affects the use of methyl bromide. Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Madam Spea ker, I will ascertain the role of the Department of Environment in this matter and report to the honoura ble member. Mr. Reid: Madam Speaker, a supplementary question then to the Minister of Justice, because the Minister of Environment obviously does not know the issue.

Can the Minister of Justice then answer: was your department contacted by the Environment department to lay charges against Poulin's for breach of The Public Health Act which states: no person shall use methyl bromide unless that person holds a valid permit to do so, issued pursuant to the regulation, and is subject to penalties of up to $5,000 or up to three months in jail? Was your department informed by the Department of Environment of this matter? I will table copies of the penalty

section that applies to this case. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as the member last day indica ted that there were a number of charges laid against Poulin 's, I assume that the Crown at torneys looked at the best charges in respect of this particular situation.

I know that the Crown attorney in the par ticula r case has provided me with a briefing, and I would advise the member that if he wants a detailed exp lanation of the reasons why the Crown took the position they did in this very, very serious case, I know that the Crown or other members of my depart ment would be more than ready to sit down with the member in order to give him the true fa cts of this situation. Mr. Reid: Madam Speaker, a final supplementary to the same Minister of Justice then or to the Minister of Environment or anyone in the government who can answer.

Can you confirm that Poulin's fa iled to take out this permit and that they fa iled to notify the rural municip ality involved-the community of Elie was involved in this particular case-and that there is a requirement under the regulations under The Public Health Act of Manitoba that state that medical officers must be advised that this product is in use so that the proper precautions and protections can be put in place? Why did your department fa il to make sure that this comp any had a permit and that the proper author ities were notified so that public protection could occur?

Why did you not protect the public? - -

June 17, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4567 Mr. McCrae: Madam Spea ker, I have said that I will ascertain the role that my department played. The honourable member, though, asks me to confirm something, on the one hand, and then, in his second question within a question, assumes that it has already been confirmed. So I think we will take it one step at a time and deal with this thing in a compassionate way and in a way that gets out the real fa cts. Mani toba Lotteries Corporation Promotions -Vintage Locomotive Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I would lik e to table a letter from the Vintage Locomotive Socie ty, which I believe the Minister of Tourism also may have received, I received this morning. For 27 years, the locomotive society's members have provided thousands of Manitobans and visitors with a chance to ride into history on the oldest operating steam train in North America. That train's future is in serious doubt now. We are at risk of losing this unique li nk with our past and the enormous tourist potential that goes with it.

Will the Minister of Tourism today acknowledge that their plan to force the Vintage Locomotive Society into an allia nce with the Lotteries Corporation is wrongheaded and that the vol unteers of the society have already expressed grave reservations about being used as part of a marketing campaign to increase ga mbling at McPhillips Street Sta tion by using the train as a draw? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Indu stry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I will not confirm anything at this parti cula r time as I know there have been a group of people, particularly of the heritage locomotive society, that have been working very dilig ently and are to be compli mented on trying to retain that piece of heritage in the province of Manitoba.

We have also been working with them through the depa rtment, and Lotteries as well have been doing some work as to whether or not there can in fa ct be some work done as it relates to preserving that piece of heritage and providing the opportunities for it to opera te as a tourism attra ction in the province of Manitoba. Mada m Speaker, I will await the report from both Lotteries and my department before I comment further. Mr. Sale: Madam Spea ker, will the government tell the Lotteries Corporation that they cannot and should not and must not operate a second train in competition with the Prairie Dog?

Whether it is another steam train or a diesel train does not matte r. Will they tell them they are not to go into competition with the volunteers and compete for the attention of the public for a historic train ride in whatever direction? Mr. Downey: Madam Spea ker, first of all, I should point out that it is the objective of the province and those working with the heritage locomotive society that we do in fa ct preserve a piece of heritage in our province and that it is used in a productive way to enhance tourism in the province of Manitoba. There have been a group of people working on this objective.

Until I get a more comple te report, I certainly cannot take anything from the member for Crescentwood as fa ct. As for the rest of his col leagues, they do not really know what it is in most cases. Prairie Dog Central Lower Fort Garry Route Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Spea ker, my questions are also for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism, and they follow up on my coll eague from Crescentwood.

Will the government agree that the preferred route for the Prairie Dog Central is to run to Lower Fort Garry, where, in combination with river boats, visitors could experience a round trip from Winnipeg to Lower Fort Ga rry and experience our unique history of river and rails? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Indu stry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, that is one of the options that is being considered by the group of individuals who have been charged with this responsibility. It could be an option, and again I leave

4568 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1998 it to those peoplt� who have been working on that project. I will not sit here or stand here and direct that something happen. There are a group of responsible people that are working on the options that are available for the Prairie Dog Central, which I belie ve we all would like to have opera ting in the province of Manitoba, adding to the overal l tourism package that is ava ilable to the people who come to this province. Future Usage-Pan Am Games Mr.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, will the minister commit today to a nonpartisan approach to ensuring the train and the society's survival, to sit down with the society, sit down with the officials from the federal government, from local governments and local MLAs, and commilt the necessary resources so that the train is running next year for the Pan Am Games? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Indus try, Trade and Tourism): As usual, Madam Speaker, I will bring a nonpartisan approach to all of the activities that are carried out within my responsibili ties.

Madam Speaker, I will continue to endeavour to work with the committee, all those individuals involved, so that wt� can in fa ct maximize the use of the Prairie Dog Ct�ntral, maximize the tourism opportunities and preserve a piece of history which is very important to the province of Manitoba. Video Lottery Terminals Revenues Ms. MaryAnn Mibychuk (St. James): My question is for the Minister of Finance. Sharing revenues from all sources-liquor, tobacco, VL Ts, mining, income and corpor ate taxes-is the Manitoba way.

However, it is difficult to understand this government's proposal of forcing or penalizing communities who choose to eliminate VL Ts by having them lose their share of that revenue. My question to the Minister of Finance is: what does the minister have to say to the urban municipalities in Manitoba who indica ted in their recent news bulletin that they resent the fa ct that the government took no consultation process in introducing VL Ts and expandin g them into virtual ly every bar and now are holding them basically hostage by threat ening to withhold their share of that revenue? Hon.

Eric Stef anson (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Man itoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, the government is not holding anybody hostage. We are very proud of our record when it comes to dealing with municipalities in this province, in terms of some of the policies we have in place, where we are the only province in Canada that shares our personal income tax , our corporate income tax and so on. The specific issue that she raises, she is well aware, believe, that the independent Gaming Control Commission right now is soliciting input from Manitobans.

They have a proposal before Manitoban s. They are taking the next several weeks, in terms of public meetings, offering opportunities to meet directly and also soliciting input directly to them through the mail or e-mail or so on to get input on this very important issue. As well, I believe they will be consulting with the municipal orga niza tions, the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities on this very important issue, so we will await their report and their suggestions. *

(1410) Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, my final question: will the minister admit that by having municipalities threatened or believe that they are going to lose their share of the revenue basically closes down an open process? Will he, like the Alb erta government led by Ralph Kle in-even they saw wisdom, reversed their decision- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Stef anson: Madam Speaker, the member for St. James does not seem to understand what is currently taking place. She talks about reversing decisions when no decisions have been taken at this par ticula r point in time. There is a process right now.

In fa ct, she has the opportunity to make representation to the independent Gaming Control Commission if she so chooses. They - -

June 17, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4569 are meeting in communities like Brandon, Winnip eg, Thompson. They are soliciting input on this very important issue of potentially having plebiscites here in Man itoba, and if plebiscites are held, what would be the ramifications to communities who decide to remove VL Ts and so on. So there is a consultation process taking place. That is something we certainly support. We support listening to, hearing from Manitobans, hearing from organiza tions. If she has some strong views on the issue, I encourage her to make a representation to that commission.

First Nations Communi ties REDI Funding Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, on a regula r basis I rise in this House to point out to the government about the double standards that they employ when dealing with First Nations people in Manitoba. On May 29, in a letter to me from the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), which I would like to table today, the minister tells me that First Nations are not eligible for funding from the RED! program because they are already getting gaming revenue. My question for the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) is: if using that logic and carrying it further, then why did Steinbach in 1996 receive over $150,000 when there are no VL Ts in Steinbach? On top of that, RED! program funding went to Steinbach, to a Steinbach entrepreneur. Hon. Frank Pitura (Acting Minister of Rural Development): I will take that question as notice for my col league the Min ister of Rural Development. Mr.

Lathlin: I have one more question, Madam Speaker, and that is to the First Minister: why does his government say every day here in the House and out there in public that they would like to work in a partnership way with First Nations one day, and then the very next day they tell us that we are a federal ward? How can you establish a part nership relationship that way? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, my understanding of the way in which revenues flow to First Na tions under our gaming ag reements, which we have signed with about 30 First Na tions, is that they get 80 percent of all the revenues from VL Ts, as opposed to all other areas of the province in which they get 20 percent of the revenues. So they get four times as much funding by signing that agre ement, so they are beneficiaries to a far greater extent.

If the member opposite is suggesting that we ought to enter into a change in that agre ement to reduce their share to 20 percent, we will take that under advisement, but I am sure that his citizens in the First Nations in The Pas and other areas would be very upset with that. We do enter into dialogue and we do enter into discussion with the members of First Nations, but I will point out to him that it is by their choice, for instance, that they choose to work directly with Ottawa and leave us out of the discussions, for instance, on devolution.

The First Nations said, no, the provincial government has no responsibility at the table with regard to those discussions. In fa ct, their relationship is with the federal government, so they are the ones who are dictating that they do not want us involved in those discussions. He cannot have it all ways. City of Winnipeg Tax Ref orms Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Spea ker, this morning the Committee on Tax Reform, chaired by a name very familiar to all members of this House and the citizens of Manitoba, Mr.

Cla yton Manness, gave to the City of Winnipeg a document entitled Rethinking Taxation: Making Winnipeg Competitive, where, surprise, surprise, the committee chaired by the former Minister of Finance and the former Minister of Education in the Conservative government made no acknowledgement, said not one word in that report about the impact that this provincial government's taxa tion polici es, five years ago, have had on the City of Winnipeg and its ability to raise revenue that it needs-not only the City of Winnipeg, but the rest ofthe province. I would like to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Reimer) if he will not acknowledge that the

4570 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1998 government's program s to cut $75 from the property tax credits and to cut as much as $150 from the senior school tax assistance programs by this very minister, former Minister of Education and of Finance, has led to some of the tax problems fac ing the City of Winnipeg. What does he plan to do about it? Hon.

Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance): Well, without accepting most of the prea mble of the member for Wellin gton, I hope she does get an opportunity to read that report that was tabled today, because I think there are some ve1y important aspects to the report. One that she should make note of is some information that says based on 1996 financial statements and Statistics Canada population data, Winnipeg received over $240 per capita in government tra nsfers. In comparison, Cal gary received $77, Edmonton received $4 7 and Saskatoon received $71 per capita.

All fa ir analyses to date show that no major Canadian city does better than Winnipeg with respect to cash transfers from the Province of Manitoba. That is what the report says, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourab le member for Well ington, with a very short question. Ms. Barrett: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Will the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Reimer) not acknowledge that the people of Manitoba and the people of Winnipeg do not belie ve this government when they talk about taxa tion systems and fa irness, because they know, and this report does not reflect the fa ct, that the province has been systematically cutting support services, putting user fees onto taxpayers and forcing the City of Winnipeg into untenable financial situations, which tht� former Minister of Finance in this government ref uses to- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Stef anson : Madam Speaker, I am not sure the member has read the entire report.

I just read her one excerpt that outlined! very clearly the treatment that the City of Winnipeg gets compa red to other ma jor Canadian cities. As well, as I responded to her earli er, we are the only province in Canada that shares our personal income taxes and our corporate income taxes with municip alities., including the City of Winnipeg. As well, we have a six-year $96-milli on capital agreement with the City of Winnipeg, appr oximately $16 million a year, to enhance infrastructure in the city of Winnipeg.

As well, in the 1998 budget, we put in an additional $5 million for a residential street program here in the city of Winnipeg. Those are some of the fa cts in terms of the fa ir treatment that the city of Winnipeg receives from this provincial government. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. *

(1420) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS 1998 Canada Day Poster Challenge Hon. Rosem ary V odrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizen ship): Madam Speaker, on Monday, June 15, 1998, I had the pleasure of att ending the results of the 1998 Canada Day Poster Challenge at Government House. These posters were designed by students. They were wonderful representation of how students saw themselves within our country of Canada. Each year students from across the country are invited to

part icipa te in the Poster Challenge. Their posters reflect their pride, as well as the multicult ural diversity of Canada. This year marks the 11th anniver sary of the Poster Chall enge. In Manitoba alone, there were 6,500 posters entered in the challenge from over 300 schools in our province. I would like to congratulate all of those who par tici pated in this year's Poster Chall enge. Also, I would like to make a special mention of the students from Fort Garry School Division who partici pated and were finalists in the 1998 Canada Day Poster Challenge.

These students are Michaela Knispel from Ecole Viscount Alexander, Wilb ert Vivas from St. Maurice School, Joanna Wasiak from R. H.G. Bonnycastle School, Charmaine Antonette Rona from St. Maurice School, Amy Yee from St. Maurice School, Nalinda Chandrasena from Acadia School, and the second-place winner, Mohammad Irfan Khan from St. John's Ravenscourt. Congratulations to all of these students. -

June 17, 1998 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4571 Mr. Sig Halldorson Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, I want to pay tribute today to Mr. Sig Hall dorson of Flin Flon. Mr. Halld orson pedalled his bicycle from Fl in Flon to Winnipeg in order to raise funds for the seniors and child ren at the Fli n Flon General Hospital. He tra velled a total distance of 870 kil ometres. Mr. Halldo rson left Fli n Flon the morning of June 8 and arrived in Winnipeg the afternoon of Frida y, June 12. On the very first day of his bikathon, Mr. Hall dorson pedal led a distance of215 kilom etres. Mr.

Hall dorson deserves a huge thank you for his outstanding efforts in support of pediatric and geriatri c health care in the Fl in Fl on region. Also, a big thank you is in order for all who pledged and donated money to Mr. Hall dorson's bicycle mara thon. Support from ma jor sponsors was also grea tly ap preciated, namely, Sports on the Rocks, Dembinski's Limited, Creighton Furniture and the Flin Flon Rotary Club. Thank you, Mr. Halldo rson, for caring enough about our elderly and our young people to invest five full days of your life to raising funds for a very worthwhile cause. Mr.

David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Madam Speaker, I, too, would like to recognize the accompl ishments of Mr. Sig Hall dorson. I had the privilege of meeting this young man on the steps of the Legislature last Friday, and indeed he is determined to promote funding for pedia tric and geriatric care in the Fl in Flo n Hospital. I had the opportunity to represent the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) on this occasion, and I am very gra teful for that opportunity. Mr. Hall dorson trained for over 18 months for this journey from Flin Flon.

He maintained a pace through wind and rain and other undue conditions, and he proceeded to continue and arrive here in Winnipeg unfettered for these weather conditions. I would like to say, on behalf of all honourab le members here, a strong note of congra tulations to Mr. Halld orson, that he may continue on his successful journey to making greater aware ness of these health care issues of which all ofus are aware . I congratu late him for raising funds for the Norman Regional Health Authority in this endeavour. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Domtar Site-Pu blic Park Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to put a few concerns on the record with regard to the Domtar proposal for remedia tion and end use. Recent reports in the media have provoked me to do this, because I think they are treating it as if it is only a good news story and that there are no community concerns. Many of the community members feel lik e they have to accept the current proposal or nothing at all will happen.

The community was told in a meeting prior to this year, the last community meeting, that they would have final review of the director's order prior to any action taking pla ce, and this has not occurred. They have not seen the financial statements or the financial package which they were told they would have the chance to do at the final T AC meeting.

They were also told at that meeting that they would have input into the agre ement and the relationship between Domtar and Fort Whyte Centre on the end use and that there would be a democratically elec ted committee of community advisers formed, and this has not occurred. They have a number of concerns about the bioreserve, about the security, about the lack of fac ili ties, the lack of lig hting, the access, and they are very concerned that they will not have the information, the amount of money going from Domtar to Fort Whyte to operate this park. This is new ground.

It is going to be a privately owned public park with open access. There are a number of concerns about liability insurance. I think the whole way this has moved forward shows that there are a number of weaknesses in the contami nated sites legislation which is very discretionary and has basically treated the former Domtar site as disposable. The government has basically decla red that this land is disposable. Now I think it will come to pass, when we see if this property is ever sold, that no one would be

4572 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1998 interested in buying it. There are a number of concerns about Domtar being able to walk away from this property after the remediation and only having to put up $571,000. There are ongoing concerns about the property values for the residents located adj acent to the site. If conta mination is found on their property, it seems that they are simply going to have to deal with this on a personal basis, and the government's and Domtar's approach to this is we will deal with it ift he problem arises. Madam Speak er:: Order, please. The honourable member's time has long expired. *

(1430) Municipal Governme nts- Terms of Office Mr. Stan Struthf�rs (Dauphin): Today I rise on a member's statement on behalf of a couple of municipal governments in my area, namely the Town of Grandview and the R.M. of Dauphin, both of whom have expressed concerns about this government's objective in increasing terms of office at the municipal level from three years to four years.

The Town of Grandview has bet!n very emphatic that they believe that length of time� is too lengthy, and it will in fa ct prevent the town from attrac ting good candida tes to serve in terms of office representing the citizens of Grand view.

Madam Spea ker,, the R.M. of Dauphin has pointed out that, in regard to moving from three-to four-year terms, that may be okay for a jurisdiction such as the City of Winnipeg where substantial remuneration is paid to council lors to off set the amount of time they spend at meetings, that that might be okay for the City of Winnipeg, but in the case of the R.M. of Dauphin, they do not have that ability. I would suggest that many other R.M.s and town councils in rural Manitoba do not have that abil ity as well, since the money is constricted in small communities in rural Manitoba and throughout the North.

Madam Speaker, both the Town of Grandview and Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) to consider both the pros and the cons of this move to a four-year term of office for councillors and really want the minister to understand why that is not a good move, why that is simply too long a term for councillo rs to be spending. They are real ly worried that they will not be able to attract the number of candidates for elections come this fa ll and in future elec tions at the municipal level if the government goes ahead with the move to extend terms to a four-year from three-year term of office. Thank you.

Committee Cha nges Madam Speaker: The honoura ble member for Gimli , with committee changes. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments for Thursday, June 18, at I 0 a.m. be amended as follows: the member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) for the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), the member for Roblin-Russell (Mr. Derkach) for the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Govern ment House Leader): Madam Speaker, would you be so kind as to call Bill 35.

DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 35-- The Mental Health and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Speaker: To resume ad journed deba te on second reading, on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik), Bill 35, The Mental Health and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi sur Ia sante mentale et modifications correla tives), standing in the name of the honourable member for Kildona n (Mr. Chomia k), who has 10 minutes remaining. the R.M. of Dauphin really strenuously want the An Honourable Member: No. -

June 17, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4573 Madam Speaker: No? Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 35, The Mental Health and Consequential Amendments Act. Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would like to announce that the bill just passed, Bill 35, would be among the bills referred to the Law Amendments committee, Friday morning at 9:30.

I just look to my honourable friend from Burrows for confirmation that that is our understanding, and that being the case, Bill 35 would be on the list for consideration with the other bills at Law Amendments, Friday morning, 9:30. * * * Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair for the House to go into Committee of Supply to consider the resolution respecting the Capital Supply bill. Motion presented. Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): It was my understanding we were doing concurrence. [interjection] That is the same thing. Thank you. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY Capital Supply Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): The Committee of Supply will come to order, please. We have before us, for our consideration, a resolution respecting Capital Supply. The resolution reads as foll ows: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $124,766,000 for Capital Supply for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1999. Shall the resolution pass? Point of Order Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Just on a point of order, it says no debate if the 240-hour time limit has expired. Has the 240-hour limit expired? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. L. Evans: So there is no debate. Mr. Chairperson: For the member for Brandon East's information, the 240 hours has expired, so this is not a deba tab le motion. * * * Mr. Chairpers on: Shall the resolution pass? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Chairpers on: The resolution is accordingly passed. Concurrence Motion Hon. James McCrae (Govern ment House Leader): Mr.

Chairman, I move that the Committee of Supply concur in all Supply resolutions relating to the Estimates of Expenditure for the fiscal year ending March 31 , 1999, which have been adopted at this session by the three sections of the Committee of Supply sitting separate ly and by the full committee. Motion presented. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, I have some questions for the Minister of Hea lth (Mr. Prazn ik).

The Minister of Hea lth I think is well aware of how my community has expressed its concern about the closure of the Misericordia Hospital and about the concerns amongst senior citizens in parti cula r, and those who are without telephones and those who are without cars, at the loss of a hospital in their midst, a

4574 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1998 hospital of which they have come to depend upon and to which they feel very close. The minister is aware that I have spoken on a number of occasions about the way in which this closure was acco mplished. In the minister's own riding, I know that the health authority is doing health assessments. He has been doing health assessments of the community for over a year. toea! meetings have been held in Grand Marais and elsewhere.

That was not accorded to my community, but resources were :taken away before any health assessment was done, a health assessment which could have looked at the e:conomic conditions of people in the area, of the way in which people had related to the hospital, of the patt·�rns of usage ofthat hospital, of the percentage of surgeries which are done in that hospital, and the way in which those rela te to the community and to the community's accessibility to hospital services. That was not done. It is being done elsewhere in Manitoba.

It was not done in my commu nity, but before even any health authority could be put in place, before the health authority even had-and I will give them the benefit of the doubt-the intention to conduct any of these assessments, the resources were taken away from the hospital, and it was essentially to be turned into a long-tt!rm care fa c il ity. That is one of my serious concerns. I think it is a del iberate choice on the part of the government. I have called it asset stripping, and I think that is what they have done in the health fac ili ties of my community.

I want to draw to the minister's att ention, in particular, two letters. I have chosen two. They are not the only ones I have received. I am sure they are not the only ones the minister has received, but they are representa tive of the way in which people think and speak of this hospital and of the services they have received there. One letter from a gentleman on Furby Street speaks of the emergency room that he went to with an ulcer and an infected gall bladder that came up very suddenly. He was kept in for a week and recovered and thankf ully is back at home.

He says: What would happen, how many deaths will occur because the people who walk into the new urgent care fac ili ty will lack equipment, people and beds? With this hospital gone there is no hospital in the downtown area to serve those with low income, and less access to cars and funds for taxi s. He believes that the minister is deserting those most in need of care. They will proba bly wait longer for care because of the extra expense, and this will make healing them even more expensive.

It will also make it more difficult for family and friends to visit and to keep their morale up for the same financial rea sons. This is not good health care, he says. *

(1440) Another family of senior citizens on Fawcett A venue writes to me and said: As do many neighbourhood senior citizens-and, Mr. Chairman, I can certainly add my confirmation of that-we depend on the close proxim ity of the Misericordia General Hospital. We have had two emergencies requiring immedia te attention. Recently, due to dental surgery a day earl ier, an artery had bust unexpectedly in my mouth, my constituent writes. I would have bled to death, he said, had I not received emergency surgery at the Misericordia General Hospital.

They go on to speak of the conditions that they had found at Health Scie nces Centre. I know that the minister has received this letter or at least it was certainly also sent to him. I want to ask the minister if he can first of all tell us and tell these people who have depended upon the Misericordia what is meant by the urgent care centre that he is to establish there? How will that serve the needs of people, representatives of whom I have spoken here? I would like to ask the minister to tell me, too: what kind of surveys, what kind of research did he do?

What kind of examination did he do of the health care needs of the inner city that led him to believe that the best answer to those needs was the closure of an inner city hospital? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Hea lth): Mr. Chair, first of all, I appr ec iate where the member for -

June 17, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4575 Wolseley is coming from. As the MLA for this constituency she obviously has a duty and responsibility to ask the questions behind the decision that was made. I say very clearly. It was a decision made by government together with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority for the la rger pla nning scheme for Winnip eg hospitals in deliv ery of the service, and I accept that responsibility. I apprecia te her role and her responsibility to ask these questions on the part of her community and her constituents who are very close geogra phical ly to that particular fa cility.

But if one accepts the principle that everything that is has to remain without change and that the fa ct that a hospital has been there for some 100 years means it has to or is required to be there forever, or that parti cula r level of service in living so close to the hospital is the standard that all are entitled to, this province would not be able in any way to guarantee that same standard even to everybody in the inner city. Mr. Chair, there are very few places in this province or even in the city of Winnipeg that have that kind of close proximity to the hospital. People in those areas become ill.

People in those areas are poor and do not have cars and have to have health care needs. They go to other fa ci lities, and, you know what, they survive, they are treated, and they are treated well. So I appreciate the benefit to ha ving a hospital right next or almost next to one's door, but that is certainly not the norm for most Manitobans and most Winnipeggers. The ra tionale behind the change that we undertook is a very simple one. We have, in Winnipeg, seven acute care fac il ities. The needs in acute care have certai nly changed.

They have changed for one reason, a very significant one, because of medical technology, the advent of laser surgery.

A whole host of other new diagnostic and treatment tools mean that people do not require as long of stays in acute care fa cil ities and that the need in our system, what has put pressure on our system, by and large, has been a shortage of long-term care beds-and we can debate decisions on freeze and ra tionale, and I accept it, that is fa ir debate-but the need has been for long term care beds, and that within our system-and this is not Darren Pra znik speaking, these are the people who manage our system.

They say to me, the physicians del ivering program s and the administrators say to me, that we did not require that capacity of beds if we are using our beds correctly and we have the additional long-term care beds in our system. We also fac ed anothe r issue with respect to the Misericordia Hospital. Of all of our urban fac il ities, of the nine urban fa cil ities, Misericordia is probably the one, with the exception perhaps of Health Sciences Centre, that is our major tertiary hospital, that is in need in the long term of a great deal of capital expenditure. It is an old building.

It has many old components to it that need to be replaced. It needs capital expenditure to be able to live up to fire and safety standards. So we do not require seven acute care hospitals in our system. Misericordia has some of the oldest infrastructure in need of ma jor capital investment. So, if you are going to make that capital investment, you want to make sure you are making it where you really need it, not just to necessarily maintain a fac ili ty for the sake of saying we have it when it may not be needed within the system or is not necessarily needed within the system. The third

part is that we have three downtown hospitals in Winnipeg. You know, I walk by the Misericordia on occasion in the evening, and from the Misericordia Hospital, par ticula rly from the roof of the Misericordia Hospital, you can see two tertiary hospitals. It is not as if that part of the city does not have access to hospital care. In fa ct, it has access to our two tertiary hospitals, a relatively close access. In fa ct, probably much closer access than many other poor areas of the city of Winnipeg.

So let us not for one moment-1 appreciate the sensitivity in the W olseley area, and I appreciate her responsibil ity as the member for that community, but in the larger picture one has to put that into context. So just simply for those fa ctors, the need to get the right number of tertiary care or acute care fa ci lities, the needed capital renovations that would be at that par ticula r fac il ity, and the fa ct it was in the inner city with two other hospitals, St.

Boniface and Health Scie nces Centre, already relatively close or in that area serving those communities, made it the candida te, in essence, for change.

4576 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17 , 1998 I say to the member for Wolseley that I have had many people involved in health care planning for both Conservative and New Democra tic Party governments over the last while speak to me and tell me that dealing with the Misericordia Hospital has been an issue in government and in health planning in this city for over 20 years, and it has never been able to be resolved because of the politics around the Misericordia Hospital. What we have managed to do with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority-and their recommendation to me was that we take exactly this approach.

That is why Neil Fast and I, Neil Fast being the chair of that hospital authority, act ually put the proposal together and visited the bishop early last fa ll to make this proposal to their board, because it made sense for the whole Winnipeg scene. So, in that context, I think it is a very justifiable decision.

It is a logical decision, given the overall planning, and although l appr ec iate the loyalt y of many patients and I appreciate how wonderful it is to li ve in a ne ighbourhood that has a hospital located in it, ultima tely the responsibil ity for myself as minister and for the Winnipeg hospital system is to build a system for the whole city and do it on a logical basis. So the advice from our pla nners, the advice from people working in the system, was that this hospital needed to find a rolt�.

One thing I am very proud of in all of this is that, unlike, I think, atte mpts in the past to deal with the future of the Misericordia, we recognized that just the closure of that fac ili ty, the elim ination of it was not a good idea.

First of all, one would lose the support base around the Misericordia, that there were health needs in the Wolseley area of that city, and that the central location of that fac il ity did provide some tremendous advantages to the Winnipeg Hospital Authority in providing par ticular ambula tory services to the whole city and even some provincial programs because of the location and the parkade, which made it a very likely site and an easily accessible site in terms of the geography of the city.

Fa r better than putting some of those services in any one pa rticular community hospital where they would be a long distance from other quadrants of the city. * (1 450) So we did make a proposal to give the Misericordia a new life, and we did, in a lot of discussions with them and within the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, develop a plan that would see them become essentially a long term care fac ility-in fa ct, the largest one in the province-and its parking fac il ity and location made it very desirable from that point of view. We have talked about it as being a home for a host of ambula tory program s.

Some of those have been identified; others, we are working on. I suspect there will be a continuing change in that as new needs and opportunities arise. But, with respect to the primary urgency care centre, what we envision-and I know there is a lot of concern around title, and the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) shared with me a document that had been put out by the WHA that left some concern and that I think it could have been better phra sed. But our intention is to have a fac ility in that area that does really two things.

One is to be a prima ry health care clinic with a wide range of physician services with the abil ity to see physicia ns for one's prima ry health with nurses, other health care providers, so that it becomes an easily accessible place for health care, and the second part of this is to have an urgency care capabi lity. Defining that further, identifying what will be in there is part of what is going on now, but I would li ke to ensure that it has as many urgency care services as possible, that it be on a 24-hour basis. The difference, I guess, is with emergencies.

Emergency in the true sense is there to be able handle trauma and a variety of things that, quite frankly, often end up at the Health Scien ces Centre, because that is where our trauma capa bil ity is, that is where our high tertiary capa bili ty is, et cetera. But many of the things just below that in terms of emergency or urgency ra ting should be able to be done at that particular fac il ity.

One of the issues, of course, is holding beds, observation beds, which may work itself into that configura tion, and that is part of the discussion that is going on to make sure that it is a highly used and relevant fac il ity, not just to her constituents-and I - -

June 17, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4577 apprecia te her asking because it gives me an opportunity to talk about this in a public form-but we also envision that that fac il ity has the potential to provide some citywide services. It has been identified by the WHA as being the home or situated with it is the sexual assault receiving area, so that victims of sexual assault will be treated in a fac il ity other than an emergency room because that often creates a fa ir bit of concern and discomfort for them, so that sexual assault cases taken by the police or others could be directed there.

They would specialize in that par ticula r service. We have also identified that internally as having the potential to be a flu clinic in flu season, so that it can gear up and staff up to deal with people wanting in for treatment for the flu. That is very important. We had success in some of the clinics we ran, parti cularly in Courts of St. James last year. So we see that as another purpose. We want to keep it open enough to add services to it. There is a great potential, I think, to see it be an urgency primary care fac il ity, those two kinds of roles, 24-hour basis, access to the community.

The other component I mentioned to the member is that the WHA is now looking at its interfac il ity transfer arrange ments, because we recognize, as you change and specialize the functions of fa ci lities, people will access a fa cil ity. They may not be able to be treated in that parti cula r fac ility, parti cularly if they need some specialty care, and part of how we transport is being addressed. A transport service of some type is being contemplated, and it is part of that planning.

So, if someone does walk in with a condition that ultima tely cann ot be treated there or requires a medical or surgical bed, they can be stabilized in that parti cula r setting and tran sported to the appropriate fac il ity or emergency room, quite likely the Health Sciences Centre, which is almost within eyesight of the front of the Misericordia Hospital. I say this sincerely to her and the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), despite the debate that we have had over how one achieves that goal-I do say this sincerely to her and the member for Crescentwood and my collea gue the member for River Heights (Mr.

Rad cliffe) and for Fort Garry, as that fac ili ty grows and develops, there is, I believe, a fa ir bit of room for the four MLAs from that area to have some input and participation in helping with the community to find the roles it needs that that centre will be there. I do not want to say to her today that everything is hard and fa st and written in stone. There is evolution, but it is our intention and our purpose-and we intend to support that financ ially -to make that a highly successful primary health care and urgency care centre. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chairman, the minister may be able to see two hospitals from the roof of the Misericordia, but those hospitals have people on their waiting li st, people in hallways, people who are there for 48 hours, 72 hours, waiting on gurneys in hallways. This is what you see from the roof of the Misericordia.

It is not a system which is open to accepting all of the people who arrive there by taxi or by bus, or who do not have the fac il ities to go and come that other people do, so the minister is painting an extremely rosy pic ture of the abil ity of the existing fac ilities to take the traffic, to take the patients that the Misericordia has taken in the past. Twenty-one percent of surgeries, the second or third busiest emergency room in the city, those are the statistics that have always been there, that have not gone away from the Misericordia.

The minister is essentially giving me a response based not upon medical service but upon location and age of building. What I am asking for is an evaluation of the health needs of that community and of the ability of hospitals and clinics in Winnipeg to meet the needs of that community, and I do not think the minister has addressed that at al l. What he has addressed is a planner's dream of age of buildin g, fire codes, safety codes.

I remind the minister that in Europe and parts of the United States, there are hospitals which are many, many years-perhaps even centuries-older than the Misericordia, which are still giving good service to the citizens of inner Paris or inner London. So the age of the building to me is not the issue. There has been a great deal of capital work at the Misericordia Hospital, the crea tion of new wings of the hospital.

In the 1960s there was reconstruction ofthe kitchens, a very modem kitchen that was put in, I might remind him, by one of his own predecessors, Don Orchard, so I am not sure that that ar gument holds water at all. What my constituents are concerned about is that they are not going to get the service no matter where.

4578 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17, 1998 It is not just that you are taking it away from a, quote, very convenient location, but you are distributing it to hospitals and to institutions which are not capable of meeting the needs. I think we have raised that not just on behalf of my constituents, but on behalf of many people over the last number of months in this House. I want to ask the minister finally if he can tell us, because there is a great deal of confusion about what the urgent nonemergency care centre is going to mean.

It is clear from tht� minister's answer that there are many possibilities, <md I appreciate him putting that on the record. There are certainly many ways of looking at this, and it is not yet decided. The minister indica tes that the community-I expect that, when he says MLAs, he means the community, I hope he does, and, certainly, I know that all of us, including those on his side of the House, would be v�:ry interested in taking

part in that . I should remind him that so far we have not-the community has not been invited, has not been spoken to, has not been consulted, not even constituted part of any consultation on the future of any part of the role of the Misericordia. So this is a first, and I certainly appreciate the minister, some years into this process, effectively offering that opportunity. It certainly comes again after the assets have been stripped and after the options for the Misericordia and for the health needs of the community have certai nly been narrow ed.

I would like to ask the minister what he exactly belie ves is the situation at the Mis,ericordia today. Is the emergency department open 24 hours? Is it able to accept patients to be admitted to the hospital from emergency, or is it simply now a triage system where they are sent to other hospitals? If that is the case, how long is that situation going to last, when does the tran sition occur to urgent, essentially, outpatient care of a 24-hour variety? When do these shifts occur, and how are people going to be informed about them?

Is there any time in that period, in that shift, for any kind of community consultation? *( 1500) Mr. Praznik: The member has flagged a number of issues that I would like to address again in context. I appreciate her comment about people saying, well, will I get the service at the other hospitals, is there room? To answer that I think one has to understand the complexities in the world in which those fa ci lities are operating today.

The problem in our other fa cili ties, in terms of shortage ofbeds, has very much been the need to use primarily medical beds, at one point nearly 300 of our 700 medical beds in the Winnipeg hospital system to house those individuals waiting for long-term care.

With the announceme nt-and members opposite may criticize us for not having done it earlier, and that is part of fa ir debate, and there are reasons we would argue why that could not be done, but that aside-those additional 550 beds, the vast ma jority of which are being built in the city of Winnipeg, will go a long way to taking that pressure off the current use of hospital beds, not for the purpose for which they were intended. So, quite frank ly, that should free up a ma jor number of beds in those fa cili ties.

Part of the Misericordia pla n, as well, is-and she has referenced the capital works and investments, and quite rightly so, that have been made in that hospital. I imagine the Cornish wing was built in the '60s; it looks about that vintage. Those parts of the fac ili ty, quite frankly, are surviving. In fa ct, they will have significant renova tions, some of which I understand are being discussed to begin this fa ll, as we are doing the safety and fire upgrades to complete the entire renovation at one time, which is more cost-efficient.

The Misericordia plan will have 280 long-term beds and appr oxima tely 170 or 175, depending on how the arch itect's work comes out, tran sitional beds. Those transitional beds, in essence, are for people who are waiting for placement in the personal care home of their choice. Right now we house those people throughout our hospital system in Winnipeg. The plan here-and some of that will begin this winter, and I will touch upon that in a few moments-is to be able, as those beds are available, to move those transitional patients, in essence, to the Misericordia, thereby freeing up medical beds in other fa cilities.

With respect to emergency and concerns that emergency wards across the city, I do not have the numbers in front of me. On our analysis of what emergency wards are being used for today, there is a -

June 17, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4579 high preponderance for people to use those wards to visit doctors, not being an emergence situation or even an urgent situation. We have also found that many hospitals use their emergency wards for admitting, both of which tend to not be ef ficient uses of a true emergency room. Part of the pla n with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority is making some of the adj ustments and changes which will quite frankly get better use out of our existing emergency rooms in the system.

Developing and using primary health care/urgency care clinics or fa cilities also, I think, will take pressure off emergency rooms because that is where you go if you are sick, your child is sick with the flu, maybe you have cut yourself and you need to be sutured. Many of the minor things that tend today to plug our emergency rooms, particularly in emergencies where you have tra uma coming in, because those more minor injuries or il lnesses wait while the trauma is being addressed.

So if we can develop our health care clinics to take on a larger role, and I envision this clinic at Misericordia, with the centre urgency prima ry health care centre, should take up a large percentage of the work that is currently being done in the emergency ward at the Misericordia hospital, that the amount of trauma cases or emergency, obviously high-need cases, is probab ly the smallest percentage of what they do. I do not have the numbers in front of me. So it is really those that are diverted to other centres, so that is part of the balance and the pla nning.

I say to the member, as well, one thing we learned last winter going through the flu season, we had a success at the Courts of St. James where we worked to put in a clinic to deal with the flu. There is a high preponderance of seniors in those blocks at the Courts of St. James. They are right next door to the Grace Hospital, and so when you are ill, you need to see a doctor and you go to the emergency ward at the Grace. That tends to be a problem because it quite frankly fills the emergency room there with not really emergencies, but people who need to see a physician, have medica tion prescribed, et cetera.

I think we would all agree that is really not what an emergency ward is there for. So we did work to put in a clinic last year in the Courts of St. James to deal with flu, and that is something with the Long Term Care Authority we want to expand. We are looking at this fa ll for some expansions, parti cularly in areas where you have a high number of seniors blocks. Misericordia will be added to that .

Within the community clinic system across Winnipeg -I am thinking of Mount Carmel and Aboriginal Health and Wellness in Norwest and others-we are looking now, we are having the Long Term Care Authority looking at our ab il ity to use those to pick up and extend hours in those clini cs, to be able to pick up a lot of the stuff that finds itself in the emergency ward because their doctors' offices are not open, or they do not have physicians.

I would ima gine that is part of the issue, as well, in the Wolseley area, having had friends who lived there in their university days, that there is an elderly popula tion that has its physicia ns and services, but there is also a fa ir turnover of students and other people in that area who may not come with physicia ns and need the care, go to the emergency ward at that time. So this clinic and this kind of walk-in service- An Honourable Member: When is it going to change? Mr. Praznik: Okay, yes, I will just get to that. we will be there.

Now, with respect to about two things, the process of change and involvement of the community, we made the an nouncement of principle, about what we are trying to achieve, and the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, with the Misericordia Boa rd of Directors and management, have struck an implementation team that was agreed between the two parties. They are working now with the care providers, physicia n groups in that area to devise the pla n for impl ementa tion.

There is a great deal of work and effort going into that because if one step is out of place, you can cause a plug somewhere else in the system, or have something fa ll through the cracks. So they are working on the detail of that particula r plan. We have encouraged them to involve the

4580 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17 , 1998 community. One of the issues that is there, and I recognize, is community involvement. I do not mean to touch again upon a touchy subject, but when the member for Cresc:entwood (Mr. Sale) and I had an exchange on this matter in Estimates, the member for Crescentwood flagged the Misericordia board, although very caring and compassionate, has not over the years been able to necessarily build the level of community involvement that he was, in fa ct, comfortab le with.

This obviously is a shortcoming he has identified, and it is one that I am going to be encouraging our people to be suggesting to Misericordia very strongly that they have to e:nsure, par ticula rly in this prima ry urgency care clinic, that they are involving the community, and the: community represented by MLAs, city councillo rs, by the public themselves, should have a role. I am not the owner of that fac ili ty. They are. They are the goveming board of that fac il ity. The reason I ref erred to the Member for Crescentwood's (Mr.

Sale) remarks, and I stand by my statements, is that what he was asking for me to do in operating agre ements with the Misericordia Hospital, which by the way I thought were very thoughtful and very wise on his part, and that he identified a shortcoming. He was asking that I ensure that-put these in and insist they be in and put in operating agreements-and the point I made with him that day is I do not have the power to do that. That is part of why we are seeking that in the Legislature. But the member's point is valid and that message will be conveyed through the Winnipeg Hospital Authority to Misericordia.

I am hoping that that board of directors pays heed to that message that they should be involving people in the community in the development particularly of their community-based particular needs in that clinic. I will l convey that. Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Chairman, when we saw the capital spending that the government put forward under one of the items listed under a ma jor project, the nursing station for Sapotaweyak Cree Nation, and when we saw that, in fa ct I was very pleased to see that the government had recognized the importance of establishing a nursing station in that community.

However, when we did some checking, we found out that although it was listed as a ma jor project and other projects that were not listed as major projects were getting up in the range of $300,000 for renovations to fac ili ties, but Sapotaweyak Cree Nation for their nursing station were only getting $80,0 00, if I understand correctly the funding. Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair I wonder whether the minister can explain this situation. This is a very important nursing station.

It provides service not only to Sapotaweyak Cree Nation but there is also Peli can Ra pids, which is a Metis community right next door. We are all looking for ways to provide better health care services for people. One of the problems, and I do not know whether the minister is aware where this community is loca ted, but they are about a mile-an hour and a half out of Swan River.

At the present time, a tremendous amount of money is being spent tra nsporting people back and forth when they need services, but also there have been losses of life because people have not been able to make it to the hospital quickly enough. * (1 51 0) The fac ility is very important, but I also think that the province, if they list the project as a capital project, that they should show more commitment than they have.

I would ask the minister to explain why this project was listed as a major project and then find out that there is only $80,0 00 attac hed to it, because the minister is well aware that any renovations to hospitals-$80,000 is act ually a very small amount compared to some of the amounts that have to be spent on renova tions.

So I would ask the minister if he could explain why that decision was made, and whether there is any possibility of revisiting that decision in order to ensure that the assistance that was required to help Sa potaweyak fulfill their dream of having a nursing station and providing services for the people of that area can actually happen. Mr. Praznik: An interesting discussion on loca tion because I know the concerns about Misericordia and I apprecia te those. If I was the MLA for Wolseley, I would be asking exactly the same questions and making the same ca se.

The member for Swan River and I, who both represent areas of this province that have much - -

June 17, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 458 1 larger distances between communities, appreciate that to have a hospital right in your own community is such a rare privilege or event for most Manitobans, for many of us in our communities, that we are an hour-I think it varies in the Rupertsland constituency, like Bi ssett and Mani gotagan that are over an hour to the Pine Falls fa cility.

So, when one is sort of weighing these things in terms of priorities, obviously there is a recognition that in many parts of this province, the distances-even within the City of Winnipeg, the distance to various hospitals is far greater than one in-it is such a rare privilege to be in to have a hospital. The member nods in agre ement. She knows of what I speak; it is part of that balancing. I have addressed this issue I think three times. I think we discussed it somewhat in Estimates. It was raised with me the other day by, I believe, the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) in the Estimates committee.

I have no problem addressing it again because I appreciate it is of concern to that community. We are only a small party in this par ticula r project. This is a federal project on a First Nati on, and what we have done, though, is-the member has rightly flagged the Metis community that is next door which is a provincial jurisdiction community, and we provide a number of services in there.

So, consequently, rather than reinventing the wheel twice, we have agre ed to be part of their clinic or their building and to purchase by way of a capital contribution the space in that building that we will use for the del ivery of provincial programs and services in our area of responsibility. It was determined, I belie ve, in discussions with the federal government, who have the responsibility and are the lead in this project, that our share would be the sum $80,000 or whatever is li sted in our Estimates as what we have ap proved.

But we are not the owners of the building, we are not the project managers of the building, we are not the developers of the building. We, in essence, are buying a piece of the building for the provincial services. So the work to deliver the project and the lion's share of the dolla rs, because it is a First Nations community, will come from the budgets within, I gather, the federal Department of Health and Welfare, Medical Services branch. I believe that is where they come from. I indica ted last Thursday to the member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) in our Estimates, at the conclusion of our Estimates, that my staff would endeavour to find out for us exactly what the status is on the federal side. I would suggest sincerely, I do not say this to you in a partisan way, but perhaps it is time for a few letters from local politicia ns, M.P.s, counci llo rs, and communities to Mr. Rock, again just to flag the issue and indica te its importa nce. I can assure her that the provincial co-operation and dolla rs for our share of the building are there and will flow when the building construction begins and we would normally flow those dolla rs. Ms.

Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, that is good advice about writing letters, and I will take that advice. I hope the minister recognizes that although they provide a small amount of services to the Metis community that the dolla rs that are going to be saved on the provincial coffers by having the service there, the transportation dolla rs, the province will recoup their capital very quickly.

I think for that reason that the minister should give some reconsiderati on as to whether or not the amount of capital being put in is sufficient for the amount of service that is going to actu ally be gained because of dolla rs that will be saved in tran sportation costs and in lives that will be saved, I am sure.

But, you know, it is going to mean, if services are going to be provided right there, people are not going to be going out for blood tests, people are not going to be going out for treatment for diabetes or testing, and many of the tests will be able to be done right in the community, which will improve the quality of life in the community but reflect on the provincial expenses. I hope the minister will consider that in his decisions and maybe reconsider the amount of money that is being put in there. I want to move on to another topic that is important to rural Manitobans. That is the service of mammo gra ms.

I was very concerned when I heard about what was happening at Misericordia Hospital and the fa ct that mammogram services were going to be fragmented and moved to different parts of the city, because rural women many times were the ones who were taking advantage of having the residential fac ili ties right in Misericordia, to be able to have comple te treatment as far as surgery, plastic surgery afterwards, treatment,

4582 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17 , 19 98 counselling, and it was all in a very compact area. So I was dis appointed to hear that that service was being fragmented, and I hope that the minis ter can address how he feels that that is going to be addressed. But another issue that I am very supportive of and one that I have lobbied the government on many times was that we would have mobile mammogram service in rural Manitoba.

The government has made the announcement that we are going to have it, and I want to commend all of those people who have done fundraising in order to enable us to purchase that first mobile mammogram unit.

However, I would like to ask the mini ster how soon we can expect that service to be delivered in rural Manitoba and whether it is the plan of the government to ensure that during the winter months when winter roads are in place that we also have mammogram service in many of the outlying communities where women many times do not have the necessary tests that are required because it is so difficult to access this service. Again, by taking the service out to the community, in the long run this is preventative health, and in the long run, as a province, we save many, many dollars and, indeed, save lives. Mr.

Praznik: A couple of issues just on the clinic. appreciate the member's comments about savings. I do not know what the analysis would produce because there are still many reasons why they would be transported to Swan River to the hospital there. But those same savings will also come to the federal government becaust: the same savings will be there for Fi rst Nations people. We did negotiatt�, I understand, with the federal government and agreed that our contribution would be $80,000 or whatevt:r it is. The holdup is not us.

It is the feds who have to make a decision to go within their budget, and that is really the issue. If that can be resolved, we are there and we are going. We certainly do not want there to be any holdup on that particular project. I appreciate its importance to the community. With respect to mammography, there has been a lot of discussion and I think some confusion over breast care issues in the city of Winnipeg. It should be noted that we did not have just one program at Mis ericordia. We had four different programs across the city, with surgery being delivered in seven hospitals.

So on an overall basis within Winnipeg, in the total breast care package , we have a very fragmented program today. The mammography part of it, although located at Miserico rdia, is not technically part of the Mi sericordia program. It is operated by the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation, the mammography clinic which is a screening clinic, and is there, will continue. It is an ideal location because of the parkade being there.

It is a central location in Winnipeg and obviously the province. * (1 520) So as the general breast care program is being refined and put together, I know many of the community organizations with an interest in this area are at the table and have been invited to par tici pate in designing that program, and it is going quite well. I do not have an up-to- date report on its status, but I know, if I remember correctly, the mammography portion at Mi sericordia is located there. That is the one centre I believe we have in Winnipeg for mammography, so it is not going to be split up with machines all across the city.

With respect to the rural program and the two machines, community organizations undertook fundraising for the capital cost of one machine, and they did a superb job in raising those dollars. I thank them for that tremendous ef fort and contribution. We agreed that when the dollars were in place for the machine, we would fund its operating. We recognize that one machine may not be enough, and so we as a province are funding the second machine, the second unit, and its operating. I do not today have in front of me-and I apologize to the member.

I have checked through my briefing book and notes, and I do not have before me an updated list with the start dates. I know the work is being done now to put the team in place. There is training to be done. I would say, as well, to the member, we learned a number of things about this program from our colleagues in Saskatchewan where they have the - -

June 17 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 4583 machine. Saskatc hewan is considerably different from Manitoba in that they have a lot of small cities and small centres,

whereas Manitoba has one gigantic centre in Winnipeg, some larger centres in Portage, Brandon, Stein bach, Dauphin, Thompson, Flin Flon, The Pas and then a number of smaller centres, but we do not have the same kind of distribution. So our needs are somewhat different in terms of geography. We did look at their program in Saska tchewan. We sought their advice and what they learned in getti ng into the program. What was described to me was an interesting component to this. In Saskatchewan, they have a motor-home type facility in which they have their machine.

They found a couple of things, and the member hit upon one, the weather. They found that it was very awkward for the operators driving this, particularly in the winter. They found that it was often not suitable for delivering service in cold weather, just a small confined space, et cetera.

So their recommendation to us, or at least to our of ficials, was that a better way to deliver the program would be to use vans, put the equipment in vans, move the equipment into a public building or public place in the community, set up the clinic and operate it in a building, then pack up the equipment and move on to the next community. So that is the approach, I understand, that we are taking in putting this together. It is simply learning from the experience of those who have walked before you. So our two machines will be on that basis.

With respect to using the North, I would hope that as part of the schedule-in fact, I expect, and I guess as minis ter when I expect something, it should be done, that northern communities, of course, will be part of that. I do not know how we are handling the winter road or those issues, but that has to be part of the consideration. There are some issues around funding, I guess, with the federal government, but that should not preclude service from being provided. Those are things to work out.

I would suggest that the member may want to just drop by my office and have a word with Bob Rauscher in my office, and he can probably get for you the up-to date information on timing and expectation. Ms. Wowchuk: Perhaps if I do not get a chance to drop by the minis ter's office, if the minis ter could provide us in writing the anticipated start- up dates, because we have a lot of interest and a lot of calls coming in for this service. So I will follow it up there. I only have one more question to ask, and that is one issue again that I have raised many times with the government.

It is a rural service and one that was provided for a year, I believe, and then the government withdrew the funding. Given the situation we have in rural Manitoba with an increased amount of stress amongst many people, changing environment, stress within the farming community, I wonder whether the minis ter is giving any consideration to reinstating the additional funding that is required to ensure that the rural stress line operates and provides the necessary services.

I know that we have the services that are provided through an organization in Winnipeg that people can tap into, but the minister is a rural person. He knows that the needs and issues in rural Manitoba are different many times.

There is a staff of people in rural Manitoba who have been trained to address the concerns and handle the calls in rural Manitoba, but the service is not being provided anymore as a rural service, and I wonder if the minister, if he does not have the information with him, if he could update me on any information that he has on the future possibilities of reinstating the rural stress line services. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Acting Chair, first of all, I appreciate the need for that line when we were going through a few years ago a terrible situation with low commodity prices, terrible weather, and just everyt hing that could go wrong seemed to for particula rly our agricultural community. Obviously, things have improved considerably, and, consequently, needs change for that kind of a stress service. By way of a bit of an aside, we have approved the extension of the mental health teams that have been operating in the flood areas of rural Manitoba from last year. I think I have extended their operation until September, October.

I do not remember the exact date, but if they are required to be extended again, we will, because there is certainly a need. There are still some

4584 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17 , 19 98 families who have been very traumatized by what they suffered last year.

I do not have my notes in front of me, but what I remember of this issue from some time ago, one of the difficulties is as the: demand for that service declined, the cost of it on a per-call basis became just so exorbitant to maintain it as we did, so we did make arrangements with the service in Winnipeg that she has referenced to be able to provide that assistance, primarily because the service was not being used sufficiently which is a good sign, I would think, of improving conditions, and it made the cost per call just so prohibitive in terms of use of resources.

So we have made those alternative arrangements, and I say to her if there ever arose a situation again where the demand was obvious, because we are getting calls on the other line from time to time, if the demand grew where it was again better to have a dedicated line to that, we would certainly consider it. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): I was prompted by a comment of the minis ter earlier on with respect to the dilemma of the flu season to a commitment the minister had made during the course of Estimates to provide statistics on the flu-·related illnesses that afflicted our emergency rooms during the winter and the spring of this year, and I wonder if we will be getting access to that information. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, if I have made that comm itment, you C·ertainly will be. I would guess at this time that it still has to be or is being compiled.

Obviously, under the old regime, as we move through a transition, our tracking information to get specific numbers for him does take some time. When that is available, if I have in Estimates committed to that-we keep a list of thost� comm itments-we certainly will provide him with that information. Mr.

Chomiak: Also during the course of Estimates, with respect to the United Shared Services and the food services provision, the chairman ofUSSC indicated that the savings as a resullt of the shared food services would be in the range of $3.2 million with respect to the hospital and with respect to the caf eteria services, something like $2 mill ion, for a total of about $5 mill ion per year. I am wondering if the minister can confirm, in fact, whether that is the figure. Mr. Praznik: As part of a more meaningful Estimates process, I had Mr.

Sheil attend, as the CEO of Urban Shared Services, to answer those questions. As the member knows, I have my briefing notes on a number of issues. That is not one which I have, so I think we would have to check back to Hansard. The number does sound somewhat famil iar, but I cannot confirm specifically. I do not have that in front of me here today. * (1 530 ) Mr.

Chomiak: Also during the course of Estimates, and the fact it might have not come out is not a fault of the government or the mini ster, but we had discussed with respect to the amount of capital required to convert the kitchen facili ties at Health Sciences Centre, et cetera. The minis ter had used a figure of $35 mil lion, and that figure is in Hansard. We had talked both with capital people about arriving at some specifics as to that figure, and then when Mr. Sheil was in, we talked to Mr. Sheil specifically about how he arrived at that figure and neither with the capital people nor Mr.

Sheil did we get to that particular issue. I am wondering if the minis ter will commit to table, as a result of the Estimates, the specific information as it relates to the $35 -million expenditure that has been indica ted by the minis ter that had to be expended in order to upgrade the kitchen facilities. Mr. Praznik: That number is one I recall from my staff in capital planning and with Urban Shared Services as the estima te as to what the Winnipeg hospital system was facing in its upgrade of kitchen facilities. I will endeavour to firm that up in terms of how that was estimated.

I can tell the member that like all prelimi nary estimates on capital construction, because we face this in our own estimates of building costs on facili ties, particularly renovations have the nasty problem when you get into them of sometimes producing some - -

June 17 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 4585 surprises that you have to deal with. As well, when you get into tendering, sometimes you get some pleasant or not so pleasant surprises on your estimate. So they were, like all estimates at the beginning of the process, certainly not your final number, but those were the numbers that I was provided with, and I will endeavour to see what information we can provide to give a background to those numbers for the member. Mr.

Chomiak: Just for the information of the minis ter, I should advise I probably will not be as issue specific or area specific as we go through the course of these questions as we normally do because of the nature of this process, so I apologize for jumping back and forth on occasion from one area to another, but I am attempting to do in an hour and a half what normally might occur over a many, many-hour period. An issue came up with respect to the seven-month waiting list as it applies to the bone density scanner several days ago.

The min ister indi cated there was a plan as it related to the bone density scanner that was going to be put in place. Can the min ister outline specifically what is being done on a short-term and a long-term basis in order to deal with the seven-month waiting list as it applies to the bone density scanner issue? What is going to be done in the short term, the long term in relation to the present seven-month waiting list as it applies to bone density scanners in Manitoba? Mr.

Praznik: As the member knows, I was given a mandate to bring down the 1, 200 on the lis t, which we did quite successfully actually a little bit ahead of schedule, if l remember correctly. We also wanted to ensure that the list did not go up again. The Winnipeg Hospital Authority, Dr. Blak e McCl arty , has been in the process of organizing, getting control, tak ing over this particular area. I understand there was a short period of time in which temporary dollars and new funding did not match as they should, as I have disco vered.

There was a period where there was a reduction in the number of bone density scans being performed of some weeks. That contributed somewhat to the numbers going up again. That has been corrected in that the dollars have flowed. The number of procedures, of course, per week is going up, which stabil ized the li st. The other problem, I understand, that happened is there was a fairly pent-up demand, I gather. No one quite knew how pent up that demand was or would or would not be. So consequently, as the lis ts came down, they have filled back up again, certainly not a two-year waiting list as before.

I understand they went up to something like eight months, stabil ized, and are now back again on their way down. This was brought to my attention, to be blunt, just a few days ago, the list having gone up to that point. Although it was coming down, it was not coming down as fast as I wanted. I had asked my acting deputy Mr. Potter to ensure Dr. McCl arty had the resources he needed to be able to bring it down at a faster pace, and I understand that is happening, so a little glitch in the financing flow, and secondly, a great pent-up demand putting names on the list.

I understand, as well, that the protocols about who should be getting and who should not be getting bone density scans are just coming into place. I was told by our operational staff that those on the list currently, there are a number of those who may, in fact, not qualify on the protocols and quite frankly are on the list but do not require the particular densitometry. So that has to be sorted out somewhat, and I am hoping within the next couple of weeks that list will have come down or be on its way to coming down, back to kind of the stable level where we intend it to be. The member for Ki ldonan (Mr.

Chomiak) has always, I think, appreciated the difficulties in managing the system, and some occasions has indi cated these things are not always about money. There is a sense of how we organize and put these things together. We have been over the last year in this transition to the Winnipeg Hospital Authority . The ability of a Dr. Blake McCla rty and others to get their job done is growing daily, and there are going to be some kinks in this to work out. This is one that had that.

As I said, when it was brought to my attention just the other day that there had been a problem with the list going up, we have moved to ensure that the additional resources are in place to bring it down to what should be a reasonable and acceptable waiting period for this diagnostic procedure.

4586 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 17 , 19 98 Mr. Chomiak: Will the minis ter undertake to provide us with the protocols of all of the various protocols that are being establis hed as it relates to diagnostic procedures simi lar to the bone density scanners so that we would have some idea as to qualifications in that regard? Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, that is an excellent idea. I would imagine these are public documents. Barring something that I am no

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-66
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 66.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6ba7d263420fd438f23a3d28b88d1c8b92a9f86d

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