VOL. 3 .: PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:0"0 p.m. FRIDAY, MAY 15, 1981 NO. 41 (,'

May 15, 1981 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 1580 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the · Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question · for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Last night my colleague, the member for L·aPoile (Mr. Neary) 1 and our spokesman for Municipal Affairs, the member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores), attended a public meeting in the town of Bonavista attended by somewhere between 400 and 500 people who were very concerned about the implementation of property tax.

And we could not explain to them, Madam Minister, maybe you can explain to them, why · it is that the act has no provision in it whereby the people in a town like Bonavista have any choice about paying property tax, that it is enforced under the act, Mr. Speaker. It has been enforced under the act and the people could not understand why there is no provision in the act for them , either at a public meeting or in any kind of a petition,to have any choice over what would happen.

The people just could not believe that they have no choice They, the people in the district in the town of Bonavista,would like to know if the minister can explain for the benefit of the people in Bonavista why it is that there is no provision for the people in Bonavista to opt for a different form of taxation if that is their wish. Why is it that there is no provision in the act for them to do anything about it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS . NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, this government had a Royal Commission , the Whalen Roy al Commission, to study 4405

'May 15, 1981 Tape 1580 EC - 2 MRS • NEWHOOK: all forms of tax ation in this Province - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAl<ER (Si!Mls ) : Orde r, please! MRS • NE~VHOOK: - and the recommendation of the Whalen Royal Co!Mlission was that the real property tax is the only fair municipal tax is the tax that tax . 4406 Also,the real property

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1581 SD - 1 MRS. NEWHOOK: has been accepted all across Canada as being the best form of taxation and our Province has adopted that. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (SimmsY: the Opposition. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Leader of MR. STIRLING: Yes,Hr. Speaker. It is too bad that the minister was not there last night to explain to the people of Bonavista what she just said,which was that in her judgment she did not think that the people of Bonavista had any right to have a choice~ in the matter because the Whalen Royal Commission had recommended it.

Now the people in Bonavista, the 500 people that were there last night, they are not satisfied and they want to know what form they can take. They asked if there is a forrn.Would the minister allow them to have a pleb~scite in the town or would they accept a petition from the people in the town or from the majority of the people or from a two-thirds majority or 90 per cent of the people? They reject it.lt is not acceptable to them. Would the minister consider a change in the act to enable them to make a presentation? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MRS. NEWHOOK: Oh, oh.

Order, please! Oh, oh. Order, please! The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. Mr. Speaker, what the minister will consider is that all information will be made available to the residents of Bonavista,that they can have a citizens' committee, they can present to me all of the questions, al~ of their concerns and my department and I,and I am sure the member for Bonavista 1 we will get all this information back to the people and I am sure that all of the residents of Bonavista, when they have all the. facts and we can apply it to their particular area, their particular town, I am quite sure 4407

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1581 so - 2 MRS. NEWHOOK: that all these concerns will be resolved and they will be quite satisfied with the information. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER (Simmsl ~ LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, the hon. member for Mr . Speaker, I do not know if the hon. member is aware of it or not, maybe the member for the district did not communicate the message, the information, to the hon. minister, but the hon. minister was 4408 t:

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1582 MR. S. NEARY: invited to go to Bonavista to discuss this matter with the citizens of Bonavista. And the people are very disappointed that the hon. minister did not turn up to explain the situation to the people in Bonavista but instead decided to send out a brochure to the people, the householders. Now that brochure did not indicate whether or not people, fishermen especially who have a bad year in the fishery or somebody who gets sick - MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) bad yea;- this yea,r, MR. D. HANCOCK: - Keep your trap closed now, keep your trap closed now.

It was good until you came back here. SOME HON . .IV!EMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms): has a supplementary. MR. S. NEARY: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member for LaPoile - somebody who goes, for instance, who goes in arrears on their taxes through no fault of their own 1 there is no guarantee in that information pamphlet that the minister sent around to the householders-that seemed to make matters worse,by the way, and I will explain that later - no guarantee in that that if they did go in arrears that their houses would not be seized in lieu of taxes.

Could the minister now give the people of Bonavista that assurance, a guarantee that they will not lose their homes if through no fault of their ovm they go in arrears on their taxes? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. 4409 DW - 1 ·:.·

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1582 D~l - 2 ~S . NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, the council in Bonavista has the authority to reduce taxat i on, the property tax, it has the authority to defer it, it has the authority to forgive it if it wishes . And I am sure that all of these matters, all of these taxations, or the ones l¥h0 really have a legitimate clairo t o have been unable to pay the tax,oan be de alt with by the council. MR. MORGAi'l: not it will be. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Wi tr r.':!'"'<" r:f t o '3P..i.?:ino - (Inaudible) ::·o embarrass. If it l¥as O.h, oh ! 4 4 1 0

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1583 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER{Simms) : Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: With regard to seizing people's properties and · selling it, in twenty-five years of the property tax in Newfoundland, I think there is only just possibly the city of St. John's that has ever really taken people's property for sale to recover arrears of taxes. And I understand that even with the city of St.

John's it has been very,very old properties where there have~een absentee landlords or absentee owners or where the property has been so dilapidated that it is to the benefit of the owner to let it be seized for the taxes rather than to pay them. And there is no need whatsoever for the people in Bonavista to fear that that will happen in that town. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member Mr.

Speaker, I would gather from the answer given by the hon. minister that she sympathizes with this principle of not seizing people's homes who go in arrears in their taxes through no fault of their own. The minister seems to favour that so why will the government not make that the law of the land? Why will the government not amend the Municipalities Act to make that the law, that no municipality in Newfoundlan~ including Bonavista,would be able to take a person's home ever? including St. John's and Corner Brook, by the way; that is another place they have seized homes.

Make it the law of the . land that no person will lose his home because he went in arrears in his taxes. And the other thing that the people are concerned about down there is that they do not have a choice. Before this 4 4 11

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1583 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: act carne into effect last year, the people of Newfoundland, the people in the municipalities in Newfoundland had a choice of whether they wanted to go for the property tax or not. In Bonavista and fifty-nine other communities they now have no choice. They have to accept it under this act; it is mandatory. And that is one of the big complaints in Bonavista. They cannot exercise their democratic right. They cannot vote by secret ballot. What is the min- ister's comment on that? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affa.irs. ~ MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that if we find that this particular clause in the act is being· abused that gove~nrnent will certainly look at an amendment to it. MR. STIRLING : Why not amend it now before there i~ abuse. MRS. NEWHOOK: There has been no abuse - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MRS. NEWHOOK: - of this particular

section of the act. SOME HON. t-1EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs was answering her question. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out to the hon. member across the House that in Bonavista,. 4 41 2

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1584 NM - 1 MRS. NEWHOOK: q,overrunent has spent somewhere between $7 million to $8 million on the water and sewer dis­ tribution in the ground. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MRS. NEWHOOK: Hear, hear! I will further point out, Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! I would further point out that the Town of Bonavista is being very heavily subsidized in the operation of that system. MR. STIRLING: MRS. NEWHOOK: out that only - What is wrong with that? I would also like to point SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . . SPEAKER: Order, please!

MRS. NEWHOOK: - seventy per cent of the people have been serviced as yet. There are still thirty per cent more to be serviced and I do ~ot think it is really fair that we have to cut back on services to other parts of the Province to install another thirty per cent services in Bonavista and for government then to more heavily subsidize them. And I can look all around this House here this mor n ing and I can see where members in just about all the districts across the Province are still waiting for. water and sewer P:r;c;'jects. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS.

NEWHOOK: And the more heavily,of course , we subsidize Bonavista,the more money is corning from the taxes of the people of our Province. And we would like to be able to spread the services as far as we can across Newfoundland and as quickly as we can. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. 4 41 3 ..... , -

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1584 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) for 'LaPoile. A supplementary, the hon. member MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there was quite a strong - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: -there was quite · a strong feeling of resentment last night that the minister has not gone to Bonavista to discuss this matter with the people who opposed the property tax in that community. And there was quite a bit of opposition to that information sheet that the minister sent out.

Now first of all r would like to ask the minister if she would, sometime in the near future, go down to Bonavista and meet the people,the same as we met them last night, and discuss these matters. And the other thing, in the information pamphlet, the householder mailing or whatever it was that the minister sent out, the minister talked about CN property, that it would be to the advantage of Bonavista to have the property tax, they would be able to tax CN property.

Well last night it was pointed out at the meeting that CN is downgrading its services in Bonavista and that pretty soon instead of taxing CN the Town Council would have to pay CN to stay there. There is not much possibility of getting taxes there. And what federal property was the minister talking about? As far as we could learn last night, there is a small post office there, ..:nd that is about it as far as federal property is concerned, not much taxes from that. And we were told also that the fishery office that used to be located in Bonavista has now been moved to Clarenville. MR. MORGAN: MR.

NEARY: are pulling - MR. MORGAN: That is federal. So what they are doing, they That i s federal. 4414

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1584 NM - 3 MR, SPEAKER (Simms) : order, please! MR. NEARY: Well I·said fisheries; I did not say fede~al - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - I said fisheries. So what is happening is that all the services, all the things that they had in Bonavista are being moved out. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! _Order, please! So, i£ the minister elaborates - Order, please! If the horl. member has a supplementary,! would ask him to direct his supplementary. MR. NEARY: So could the minister 4415 h--

May 15,1981 Tape No. 1585 AH-1 MR. NEARY: elaborate a little bit on these matters and especially the question that I asked about whether or not she would go down to Bonavista to discuss this matter with the people who are violently, by the way. protesting this property tax? MR.SPEAKER (S:i.mms): The bon·. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I have not been invited to go to BonavistQ as yet to attend a meeting. I ,can - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MRS NEWHOOK: Mr.

Speaker, I can table the telegram that came into my office requesting a senior official or my deputy minister to go down to explain the property tax and that was done. I am quite sure that the- MR. NEARY: If you were invited would you go? MRS NEWHOOK: problem. SOME HON.MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MRS NEWHOOK: MR. SPEAKER: MRS. NEWHOOK: There would be no Hear, hear! Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker. Order , please! Mr·. Speaker, there is no problem whatsoever in going to Bonavista. I vist all municipalities; all councils who invite me to govi have gone. I have never, ever yet refused. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Buchans .

MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear! The hon.member for Windsor- Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of the Environment(Mr. Andrews). 4416 -:.---

May 15,1981 Tape No. 1585 AH-2 MR. FLIGHT: In view of the fact that the Newfoundland Wildlife Federation have come out and asked for a moratorium on the start up of Cat Arm until an independent environmental impact study can be done~ in other words. they are asking .'that the act be appl -ied and that an environmental assessment board be set up to do an independent environmental study.- is the minister prepared to concede to their wishes or consider their request and call for a moratorium until this study is done? MR. SPEAKE~ (Simms): The hon. the Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Mr.

Speaker, I do not know exactly what the Wildlife Federation is requesting. I heard something on the news this morning. AN-HON.MEMBER: MR. ANDREWS: They have not written you? They have not written me . I do not know if they have written any other government department. MR. FLIGHT: Give them time. They will write. MR. ANDREWS : We are fully prepared at any time to discuss any concerns with the Wildlife Federation. As a matter of fact,I tried to contact Mr. Bouzanne myself this morning when I heard it.

I have had no communications with him,but we are quite prepared- in my understanding, what he said this morning is he was asking for an independent committee. It is my understanding that that is not required under the act 'and,as I said before,we have fulfilled the act to the letter of the law. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. Mr. Speaker, it would have been the responsibility of the Minister of the Environment 4 41 7

May 15,1981 Tape No. 1585 AH-3 MR. FLIGHT: (Mr. Andrews) to distribut the impact statement. It was not Hydro's responsibility, it was the minister's responsibility to see that the impact statement by Hydro got wide circulation in this Province and interest groups such as the 4 41 8 ·:.'L

May 15, 1981 Tape 1586 EC - 1 MR. FLIGHT: Federation of Wildlife, Rod and Gun Clubs, these kinds of people, would have got a copy of that study. Could the minister indicate to this House how wide a distribution "the Environmental Impact study by Hy~ro got in this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Environment. MR. ANDREWS: The hon. the Minister of the I do believe that-any interested party would have known by now that there was a proposed project underway in Cat Arm. That has been common knowledge for a number of years in Newfoundland.

And I am sure that the Wildlife Federation, if they had asked for information either orally or verbally, would have received it. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, in the first instance, the study presented to the minister by Newfoundland Hydro was a total

summary of preliminary studies. There was no in-depth study, but thirteen preliminary studies done over a period of five years. That is the impact statement and that is all we have; we do not have an environmental study, we have an impact statement by Hydro. Now, the Newfoundland Wildlife Federation indicated, Mr. Speaker, that they were concerned.

That is their main concern, that there is not enough public knowledge of Cat Arm from an environmental point of view and they are simply requesting that the minister call a moratorium until the information can be given to the public and meetings can be held and the people can satisfy themselves that the project is environmentally sound. Now, Mr. Speaker, will the minister undertake, in view of that request from the Wildlife Federation, 4 4 1 9 .--.

~a.¥ 15 1 HBl Tape 1586 EC - 2 ~. FLIGHT: to accede to their wishes and call £or an independent environmental study as called for unaer the act? :MR., SPEAKER (Simms) : Environment. MR. ANDREWS: The hon. the Minister of the Mr. Speaker, ·once again I have to say I have no written communications or no telephone calls from the Newfoundland Wildlife Federation. The first I heard of it was this morning. To this point in time, as I have said at least two or three times in this House, I am satisfied th?-t the impact statement is sufficient and that the effects on the environment will be minimal.

If the Wildlife Federation have other evidence, I will be willing to sit down with them at any time, as I have said already. MR. FLIGHT: That is why we want the study. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the same minister - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: - in his capacity as - I think his department is also called Recreation, Culture and Youth. I want to ask the same minister a question regarding provincial parks. This weekend, as the minister realizes, is the first big weekend for this year. MR.

NEARY: MR·. CALLAN: They are lined up up at Butterpot. Yes, I noticed tnat yesterday as I was drivi~g home, there was a big line-up. I want to ask the minister, how does he rationalize increasing the daily fees in provincial parks and also the annual permits by 35 per cent to 40 per cent? How does the minister rationalize increasing these fees when there has been nothing done to increase or to 4420

May 15, 1981 Tape 1586 EC - 3 . MR. CALLAN: improve these parks in any way? MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: So I want to ask the minister this question: Does not the minister agree that what his department is actually doing by increasing the daily and the annua1 fees in provincial parks is no improvement in facilities but they are driving campers out into the gravel pits and the ~~adsides all over this Province? 4421

.May 15, 19.81 MR. SPEAKER (Sinuns) : Recreation and Youth. MR. ANDREWS: Tape No. 1587 SD - 1 The hon. Minister of Culture, Mr. Speaker, I am very surprised by the hon. member considering the fact that the provincial parks in Newfoundland are considered some of the best provincial parks in all of Canada, possibly in all of North America. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

ANDREWS: And I am very proud to say myself that long before I got involved in politics, _before I worked with CBC, I worked as a young boy with the provincial parks when the concept of the wilderness park, the nature park, was being de~eloped long ago. It is the intention of the government to maintain that atmosphere in the parks, to maintain that wilderness approach to the ·provincial parks.

Regarding the fee increases, I would say in defense of that that the fees have not been increased for at least three years, maybe four, and it represents a dollar a night and one dollar for a seasonal entry permit to the park. And I think with the continued inflation of today that is quite reasonable under the circumstances. MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for Mr. Speaker, I wanted to ask the same minister a question about a park in Swift Current.

I was in Swift Current two nights ago for a meeting, and one of the problems that arose there in the discussion, apparently the minister was down in Swift Current about a month ago and he told the people there that the Pipers Hole Park, the staff there would be increased from one person to possibly four, guaranteed three seasonal peDmanent and possibly four. Would the minister confirm or deny that that promise was made and will be kept in Swift Current? 4422

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1587 SP - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! The hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. A!:mREWS: It is quite obvious tha.t the mernb.er has been doing a lot of travelling in his district since he became elected. I was in Swift Current, yes, and I did meet wi.th, I believe, the Lions Club group there, about a half a dozen gentlemen. I did not promise four people four jobs, th.at would be a quadruple increase in the number of staff there now.

I did say that I would consider discussing with my colleagues the possibility of another man for this Summer. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Hear, hear. Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Final supplementary, the hon. Mr. Speaker, I wonder could the minister clarify, especially for the people in Swift Current, what is the status of that tn:ovinci .al pa,rk? There is no chain there, there are no rates, no fees charged, people go in there and camp but they camp on their own, you know, they do not have to pay any fee, they can stay there. but they clean up their own garbage.

Is it a picnic park? What kind of a park is it? There is nothing out front to indicate anything. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, that park is classified as a day use park. I did tour the park when I was there and as a matter of fact I am convinced that some improvements need to be made. We do not encourage camping in day use narks, Mr. Speaker. And I have been talking with the park's 4423

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1588 DW - 1 l1R. H. ANDREWS: officials about some improvements and some extra maintenance as I have indicated already in the first question. MR. J. HODDER: l-1R. SPEAKER (Simms): for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: A suJ;Jplementary, l'-1r. Speaker. A supplementary, _ the hon. member On these provincial parks, could the minister tell me why it is that certain parks in this are opening now and certain parks will not open until open un_til mid-June?

Some of those parks across the Province which are not opening until the middle of June, particularly with the seasonable weather that we have, some of those parks are in areas which would like to attract tourists. For instance, I have one in my district, in Piccadilly ,which ,,.rill .not open until mid-June a.nd that is an area where there is a spin- off effect. Can the minister tell me why these parks are not opening for such a long time? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. H. ANDREWS: Mr.

Speaker, it has been traditional over the years, I think going back probably twenty years,that the parks opened when school was let out, around the middle of June, in recent years some of the busier parks, the ones along the main thoroughfares, along the Trans-Canada Highway and near centres of large population which would possibly get use. \'le have seen some considerable improve­ ment in the environment in the last month or s0 as people will note. We did not predict that - MR. STIRLING: Is that supposed to be funny? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. H. ANDREWS: Are you going to take credit for that?

I will take credit for that. These things are unpredictable. It has been budgeted that so many parks would open, these parks will open this weekend; the remainder will open on the 17th. of June and,knowing Newfoundland's climate as we do,it could snow tomorrow. 4424

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1588 OW - 2 MR. J. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary, the hon. member for Port au Port. .MR. J. HODDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I just want to ask the minister is his department not flex i ble enough to be able to change? I mean,we know now that the snow is off the ground! Why is it that certain parks are discriminated against particularly . in ·areas of high unemployment? MR. SPEAKER: : Hon. minister. MR. H. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, there is no discrimina- tion against parks, the parks are made up of trees - MR. J.

HODDER: Then \'lhy are you opening some of them a month before others? I mean, if vou do not open them vou are not going to get big traffic through them. MR. H. ANDREWS : - and park benches and highways and roads. The parks that are opened are selected •rhere it is believed they will be greatly used. !11-R. J. HODDER: But they will never be used if they are not opened. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member has asked his question once. MR. H. ANDREWS: Some of these parks have been opened on occasion and the use of them does not warrant them to be opened any earlier. Particularly, Mr.

SDeaker, there is another thing that comes in to play there, that generally speaking with our climate,the land and the countryside is not prepared to take a heavy amount of traffic this early in the season, the vegetation has not come back. And we would like to keep the parks by themselves without man interfering with them as much as possible until the Summer comes. 4425

May 15, 1981 MR. B. TULK: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR . W. CALLAN: M.R. B. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: Tape No. 1588 Mr . Speaker. The hon . member for Fogo. A supple ·mentary, ~1r. Speaker. I will yield, Mr. Speaker. OW - 3 The hon. member for Fogo yie.lds for a supplementary from the hon. member for Bellevue . MR. W. CALLAN : [o.{..r. Speaker, \.rhile we are on the parks, I wanted to a.sk the same minister. Three years ago I asked a q uestion in this House to a former m{nister and it was the ·policy of the department at that time to turn over as many provincial parks as possible to private enterprise.

Now I know and the minister kno"'s - or the former minister knew - that the park at S1olift Current was in demand ; two gentleman in S\.rift Current lvanted to take it over as private enterprise, but the provincial government said, 'No, 1-re want 4426

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1589 EL - 1 MR. CALLAN: to keep it as a provincial park: I want to ask ~e minister, how many parks in this Province which were former Provincial parks are now in the hands of private enterprise? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, that potential pol- icy change had been under consideration. It is my own opinion that the provincial parks that exis -t today should- not be turned over to private enterprise for a number of reasons.

First of all, for privat~ enterprise to operate these parks at the stand­ ard at which we believe they should be operated , the cost of entry, the cost of usage would have to double, quadruple, God only knows how much the citizens would have to pay to use those parkll! th.en. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh., oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ANDREWS: These parks are highly subsidized by the taxpayers of Newfoundland. They are subsidized so that New­ foundlanders can get overnight accomodations at a very minimal price.

I believe to turn over these parks where the fee is four or five dollars, you will see a fee rise to fifteen to twenty dollars a night. I do not believe that the Newfoundland people want that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: expired. Hear, hear! The time for Oral Questions has Hon. -members, I know, would like to join me this morning in welcoming to the galleries,forty stu­ dents from St.Bernard's Elementary School in Witless Bay, Ferry­ land district, accompanied by their teachers, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: They are accompanied by their teach- ers, Sister Theresa Devine and and Mrs.

Barbara Kerry. We hope 4427 ,..,,

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1589 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): they enjoy their visit this morn- ing. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have a request for leave to revert to Statements by Ministers by the hon; the Minister of Labour (J. Dinn). Is there leave at this time? MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) what is it about? MR. SPEAKER: A Ministerial Statement. The hon. minister would like ~o make one. MR. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman indicate what it is about? MR. SPEAKER: ~ The han. minister. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, we have, the reports of the McCarthy Royal Commission into three industrial accidents in Western Labrador. The hon.

Opposition critic was not here at the time and - MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: We revert to Statements by Ministers. The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I am today releasing the report of the Royal Commission into the causes of the indust- rial accidents which occured in January and February of 1977 at the Iron Ore Company of Canada mining operations in Labrador City.

Members of the House will recall that following three tragic industrial accidents involving death at the Iron Ore Company of Canada mining operations in Labrador City in 1977, a Royal Commission was appointed to inquire into, one, the cause or causes of three industrial accidents involving death which occured in January and February 1977 within the mines and property of the Iron Ore Company of Canada situated near Lab- rador City and into the circumstances surrounding the same; 4428

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1589 EL - 3 MR. DINN: two, all questions relating to occupational health and safety adopted by the Company in carry ­ ing out its mining and other operations ~tious 1 at its mines and property situated near Labrador City. Three, the compliance of the op­ erations of the Company at its mines and property near Labrador City in all respects with those provisions of the Regulation of Mines Act, the regulations made, there under and any other statutes of the Province related to health, safety and convenience of employees working therein; Four, the justification for review of 4429

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1590 MR. DINN: such acts and regulations,or either,to ensure that proper procedures and practices are followed in mining operations. NM - 1 The Royal Commission, with His Honour, Judge Vincent P. McCarthy, as Commissioner, has completed an extensive and thorough study into the cause or causes, and the circumstances surrounding the three industrial accidents involving death and has compiled a report of some 700 pages comprised of two volumes which has been distributed to the hon. members of the House today, or will be.

Volume I, this part of the report deals exclusively with the cause,or causes, of the circumstances surrounding the three industrial accidents in­ volving death. No recommendations are contained in this volume of the report. It mainly covers a description of the mining operations at Carol Lake, the causes of the accidents, and testimony of the persons directly involved in the events relating to the acci~ents. With respect to the cause of two of the accidents, the report finds the company guilty of negligence and the other accident, having occurred as a result of a malfunction of equipment.

I can inform the House that the company has taken steps to prevent a repetition of the accidents described in the report. However, Volume II of the report addressed a ,,,ide range of issues concerning occupational health and safety which extend well beyond the specific causes of the three fatalities. Volume II. This part of the report deals extensively with questions relating to occupational health and safety adopted by the company.

The compliance of the operations of the company at the Carol Lake project in all respects with statutes of the Province and regulations made thereunder relating to health, safety and convenience of the company's employees at Carol Lake and the justification for review of such statutes and regulations , or either , to ensure that proper procedures and 4430

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1590 MR. DINN: and regulations, or either, t ·o ensure that proper procedures and practices are followed in the mining o"perations. It is not my intention to NM - 2 attempt to comment in detail,at this time, on the recommendations which total forty-nine in all. However, I am pleased to report that a total of ·sixteen of the recommendations have been actioned and another eight are under active consideration by government toward implementation. A further seven recommendations involve legislation and will be reviewed in consultation with the Department of~Justice,

whereas the remaining eighteen recommendations require implementation by the company and will be persued by a senior level triPartite committee which I propose to establish with representation from the company, the union and the Department of Labour and Manpower. The function of this committee will be to oversee, in an orderly manner, the follow-up action required as a result of the Royal Commission Report. Mr. Speaker, early in 1979 government authorized a major study into the dust problems in the mining operations in Western Labrador. That study 4431

May 15, 1981 Tape 1591 EC ~ 1 MR. DINN: is progressing on

schedule and is expected to be completed in early 1982. Undoubtedly the report of the dust study will touch on many of the issues raised in the Royal Commission report and I will request the tripartite Committee to be cognizant of the dust study as it pursues the recommendations contained in the report being tabled today. Mr. Speaker, the tabling of this report marks yet another important step in government's commitment to emphasize the importance of health and safety in the work place.

As mentioned earlier, the major dust study which is presently ongoing in Western Labrador and also the introduction of new occupational health and safety legislation in 1979 1 are all part of government's policy to improve working conditions in this Province, and in doing so hopefully avoid the kind of tragic accidents which are reported in this report. I want to assure the members of the House that the matters raised in this report will be given immediate and full consideration and I intend to make further comments on this report once my officials have had an opportunity to consult with the parties involved.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : The hon. the member for Terra Nova has about three and one-half minutes approximately. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his courtesy in waiting for my arrival to get a learned and informed comment on his statement before presenting it. Mr. ·Speaker, the question that immediately comes to mind is but many reports, how many studies must we have with respect to the iron ore operations in Labrador before we make that a safe and healthy place for workers? Mr.

Speaker, we have had so many reports now, and this report certainly again points out the credence and the credibility of the concerns of the workers and the 4432 ·:,""

May 15, 1981 Tape 1591 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: union when they have express~d those concerns re the lack of safety and good health measures with respect to that mining operation. And this report, Mr. Speaker, substantiates their concerns with two major findings of this report, namely, that the company was fo.und to be negligent with respect to two of the industrial accidents and that one of the accidents was related to a malfunction of the equipment; point number one.

And the~ point number two, of cours ·e, fi.nds a lot wanting f.ITith respect to the health and safety measures as adopted and comp·lied with by the company. Now, Mr. speaker, I want to remind the minister - the ·minister ended his statement by alluding to the success of this government by the presentation of reports relating to measures for improving health and safety in the ~ork place. Let me remind the .minister that the mere prese11.tation of a report does nothing, Mr. Speaker, to make the work place healthy and safe. The measure of success, Mr. Speaker, is found in the follow-up action.

And one again wonders, Mr. Speaker, just how many reports we have to have respecting the operation of the iron ore mines in Labrador to make them a safe and healthy place in which to work. I ,hope the minister is right. I hope right now 4433 ({!:·

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1592 SD - 1 MR. LUSH: that the minister will take the appropriate action. And in conjunction with the dust committee that is now set up and in conjunction with this committee that he plans to set up to look into the remaining eighteen recommendations,that for once and for all we can do something about Labrador, that we can allay the fears of the workers and the union, Mr. Speaker, I hope. And that will, Mr. Speaker, be the success of this report.

If the minister follows through, if the minister acts upon the r ecommendations made and follows up on the appointment of the committee that he suggested he ~ould today and make the committee on the dust level more aware, make them aware of some of the recommendations,then we can say it was a success. But until that time, Mr. Speaker, it will only be a report like so many of the other reports that we had done on Labrador and I hope it is not going to be this way. SOME HON. MEMBRRS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HANCOCK: Hear, hear.

PRESENTING PETITIONS The hon. member for St. Mary'· s - Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear. They will not be so happY- to clap after I finish with the petition, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: My old buddy, my old buddy. MR. HANCOCK: This is a petition, Mr. Speaker, that, I might add, was hand delivered to me about twenty minutes before the·House opened. And the prayer of the petition is: "That we, the teachers at Stella Maris and Holy Redeemer sc;:hool, Trepassey, are completely dissatisfied with government's latest salary offer of 5, 6, 6 and 5 per cent over a two year period.

It is actually less than the salary offered in the conciliation board report,which we rejected. We wish to express our disappointment in the representatives of the NTA 4434

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1592 so - 2 MR. HANCOCK: for tentatively accepting such an offer. We intend to vote to reject this offer. We voted with a majority of approximately 95 per cent to strike if offered anything less than 14 per cent, our position has remained unchanged. We pray that you as our elected representative will petition government on our behalf.· We trust our demands will be met. We will continue to pray." I might add, Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by twenty-two teachers from that area/in the school, it i£ only one school, and I would imagine there will be more of those come in in the future.

All I can say, Mr. Speaker, is that the petition is self-explanatory and I would just like to have the petition laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. I support the petition whole-heartedly, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Sirnrnsl: MR. BARRY: Hear, hear. The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if by leave- we had passed by the submission of reports. MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER: (Inaudible) No, Mr. Speaker, pursuant to - Well, I have to see. Is there leave to revert to Presenting Reports. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPE}I.KER: MR. BARRY: Agreed. It is the annual report of Hydro, Agreed. I understand there is agreement. The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, if they do not want to see it, of course- the annual report of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro , Mr. Speaker, £or 1980. MR. SPEAKER: Would the Clerk at the tableplease get the tabled document. 4435 .......

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1592 so - 3 ORDERS OF THE DA~ MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order 12, Bill No. 4 Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The Department Of Environment". On yesterday the debate was adjourned by the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock ) but he is not here so the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY:. Mr. Speaker, thJ:~ member for Eagle River is unavoidably absent this morning so r will carry on for a few minutes . and then I hope my hon. colleague, the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr.

Hancock), who is our expert on the environment, the outdoors of this Province , will also add his few pearls of wisdom to the debate. And I am sure the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) can be persuaded,although it is not an educational matter . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: But perhaps, Mr. Speaker, he could be persuaded. 4436

May 15 .,19Sl Tape No. 1593 AH-1 MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to congratulate my colleague the member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight), for making an outstanding speech in this House yesterday. The han. gentleman obviously did his homewo.rk. He researched the matter very carefully and made - MR. BARRY: What was he speaking on? MR. NEARY:· Well, that i~ what I am coming to- and made an outstanding address to this House, Mr. Speaker. His arguments, his points were indefensible. It is virtu-illy impossible for the goverrunent to .knock down his arguments, his points that he made - indefensible.

And, Mr. Speaker, do you think that that speech that had such a tremendous impact on the House yesterday - when I left you could hear a pin drop in the House. Members were hanging onto the edges of their desks waiting for the next word, waiting for the next paragraph to fall of- the pearl of wisdom to fall of the hon. gentleman's lips. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: And, Mr.Speaker, maybe as a result of my praise of the hon. gentleman,! might be able to get fourth or fifth on the Question Period on Tuesday. Well, anyway, Mr. Speaker, how much coverage did the speech get? MR. BARRY: suspect. MR.

NEARY: did not get what it deserved. MR. HANCOCK: is pretty low. 4437 It got what it deserved,! No, I would submit that it That is pretty low. That

May 15 rl981 MR. HANCOCK: for awhile, you listened. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1593 AH-2 He even kept you quiet Mr. Speaker, I am not going to launch into an attack on the coverage of this House. I could if I wanted to,but I am not going to do it. But I must say I was awfully disappointed that the wonderful speech, the excellent speech made by my colleague yesterday was not reported widely by either the electronic media or by the Daily .News.

We have not gotten the EVehing Telegram yet , so we will just have to wait and see what coverage that gave it. moments, just I would like to,for a few repeat and reinforce some of the points that were made by the hon. gentleman. First of all, Mr. Speaker, I would like to state categorically that the opinion is becoming widespread in this Province that the biggest destroyer of the environment in Newfoundland is Newfoundland Hydro - the biggest destroyer. They are out there leveling the countryside and, Mr. Speaker, this is a shame.

It is a Crown corporation, it is a creature of the government,it is an agent of the Newfoundland government. The Newfoundland government and Newfoundland Hydro are all andthe same, there is no difference in them. There is no difference in Newfoundland Hydro and the Newfoundland government and if the government wanted to they could pull back their Crown corporation and say that you will not go ahead with future developements . in this Province unless an independent board is set up to study the impact on the environment. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. NEARY: In the case of Cat Arm, Mr.

Speaker, ·which was th.e most recent project announced that triggered this debate, and then this bill,it was rather timely that it carne in around the same time, but the Cat Arm 4438

May 15,1981 Tape No. 1593 AH- 3 MR . NEARY: development was the thing that triggered the remarks made by hon . gentlemen in the Rouse yesterday . Now what happened in the case of Cat Arm? Under the Environmental Assessment Act , the minister respo nsible for that act had the right , ,had the right to appoint a board to do an environmental study on the Cat Arm 44 39

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1594 MR. NEARY: development before Hydro received approval to go ahead with the project. The minister had the right to do that under the act. Now, did he do it, Mr.Speaker? Did he do it? The answer 1 of course 1 is no he did not do it. Instead of an indepenqent board being appointed to do the study on the impact on the environment in the Harbour Deep area on the moose population, on the salmon rivers, on the muskrat in the area. I am told, Mr. Speaker, that this particular area, this particular wilderness area has the highest moose population in the whole Province, the highest.

There are thirty-nine w.ilderness areas in Newfoundland and the Har­ bour Deep area, the wilderness area and the wintering of the moose in that area is the highest in the Province, the highest. I underline that, quotation marks, parenthesis. 'It has the highest moose population'.Qut of the thirty-nine wilderness ar~ in the Province, that particular area has the highest moose population and the minister did not see fit to appoint an independent board to look at the impact on the moose population or the caribou herds or the salmon or the muskrat and other fur bearing animals that exist in that area. Mr.

Speaker, what did the govern­ ment do? What did Hydro do? Hydro did their own study. Hydro did their own study. Well, that is just like asking Eatons or Simpsons to do a study on themselves. What else would you expect Hydro to do or say? What would you expect them to say but, yes, we can safely proceed with this project~ And then t9 take their report, as the minister told us,and put it in the libraries throughout the Province. How many communities in Newfoundland do not have libraries? How many?

I would say several hundred small communities in rural Newfoundland but, of course, this government cannot think about rural Newfoundland. They have seven members, seven St. John's members in the Cabinet and the Cabinet thinking is St. John's oriented. 4440

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1594 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: And so,therefore, when they talk about libraries, they are talking about the public library down- town, St. John's. But there are several hundred conununities, several hundred communities in Newfoundland that have no lib- rary and even if the library was there, nine chances out of te.r. the information would not filter out to. the people . So, what silly nonsense, what a silly answer the minister gave this morning to a que stion posed by my colleague, that the report - the report of whom? Of Newfoundland Hydro. And who .is Newfou~~land Hydro?

Newfoundland Hydro is the Crown cOrporation that wants to carry out the project. So, that is ' just the same as asking -Simpsons or Sears or some other department store to do an assess- ment on themselves. And what would you expect them to say? And not only that - and even that report, Mr. Speaker, contradicts the argument put forward by the government. There are certain aspects of that report that are frightening, that cannot be dismissed lightly, items in that report that the government and the minister should have paid attention to. And then we have the report done 4441

M.ay 15, 1981 Tape No. 1595 DW - 1 MR. S. NEARY: by Dr. Barnes a few years ago, a preliminary report that stated the importance of that particular wilderness area to the wildlife in this Province. And so, Mr. Speaker, there is no excuse. There is no urgenc~ and it is an insult to the people of this Province for the minister or the government, and the minister speaks for the government,to say that we refuse to follow, to obey our own law that we made a couple of years ago, we refuse to recog­ nize our own law passed in this House by members on both sides of the House because laws are not made by government, Mr.

Speaker - alt-hough I hear sometimes ministers and govern­ ment members saying that it is government that makes laws, it is not government that makes laws, it is this House that makes laws. And that law was passed by this House, members on both sides of the House voted for it. The only real objection we had to the bill at the time,if my memory serves me correctl~ was that it gave the minister too much power. We argued at the time, Mr. Speaker, that environmental impact studies should be mandatory, should be compulsory by law.

But the minister put in this little legal term that the minister 'may' appoint a board - 'may' - and in this case the minister decided not to appoint the board. Dr. Barnes pointed out the importance of this wilderness area, one of the few left in this Province,and one of the most important wildlife habitats in this Province,in the Harbour Deep area. So, Mr. Speaker, here we are faced with the dilemma again, the government riding rough­ shod over everybody, the government using their dictatorial powers.

The government makes an arbitrary decision to proceed with the project, to destroy the water, the ponds and the rivers in the Harbour Deep area, flood the whole area, chase out the moose population, get rid of the muskrats,destroy the salmon rivers 1vithout any regard,T .hey are going to proceed with that project without any regard whatsoever to the environment. 4442 I • ,,

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1595 ow - 2 MR. S. NEARY: And I am sure that the young people in the galleries \llho are listening to this debate today and listening to my voice will be disappointed and shocked to hear that we have a government that is so callous and so cruel that they would go out and wreck the only last - 9robably about the last wilderness area - MR. L. STIRLING: The last 9ame reserve. MR . S. NEARY: The last game reserve left in <:anada, the last. and this government with the s·troke of a pen would go out and wipe it out . .: Now, Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House, 444 3

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1596 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: of course, we on this side of the House are very frustrated. HR. HANCOCK: You should have heard a couple of comments I heard yesterday about MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : t-tR. HANCOCK: MR. NEARY: Order, please! They do not call him that , they call him - We are very frustrated. The people of the Province, Mr. Speaker, are extr~mely concerned and frustrated over this matter. And only last night the - what is the name of that organization? - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. NEARY: No. What is the name of that orqanization that - Rod and Gun - MR.

FLIGHT: The Newfoundland Federation of Wildlife. MR. NEARY: The Newfoundland Federation of Wildlife this morning, I heard their spokesman, I heard their spokesman on the radio, on CBC early this morning saying that the government should call a halt, postpone that development - MR. FLIGHT: Until. MR. NEARY: - until an independent environmental impact study is done. MR. HANCOCK: And we get a new minister. MR. NEARY: And I say to that, hear, hear! And I understand that every rod and gun club in Newfoundland supports that federation. So I would think, Mr. Speaker, that we are going to hear more MR.

HOUSE: (Inaudible} . MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. HOUSE: (Inaudible} . MR. FLIGHT: The member for Deer Lake - 4444 ~ · ,,

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1596 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: MR. HOUSE: If I was the hon. Minister of Health - (Inaudible) . my district. · MR. NEARY: - if I was the Minister of Health I would not stick my nose into this debate. I would rather that the hen. gentleman went down and tried to solve the medical problems down in Placentia, something that he has been unable to cope with. MR. HOUSE: - very, very well. MR. NEARY: Well, not according to the correspondence that we have, and the complaints that we have from Placentii where a doctor is not allowed to go in the hospital to visit his patients.

The doctor wanted to go in the hospital, the minister's department refused to allow him in to visit his patients. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: . That is the kind of arrogance, Mr. Speaker, and kind of contempt that this government has for the people of this Province. The kind that we just heard from the Minister of Health, and I am not going to be sidetracked or distracted off the main issue, which is the Cat Arm development. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: But this is an indication, Mr.

Speaker, this is typical of the reaction that we get from ministers in this government, nothing but arrogance and contempt. MR. FLIGHT: t•Jhy was your final explanation - MR. NEARY: Know-alls. They are know-alls. And in the process they are riding roughshod - they are riding roughshod over everybody in this Province. The Premier sets himself up as an emperor, a dictator, and they think they all have to follow suit. They are all mini-dictators. MR. HANCOCK: Particularly with oil, they do not know if they have got something or - 4445

May 15, 1981 Tape. No. 15~6 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: l-ir. Speaker, thi.s is a very serious matter indeed. And I am hoping that before this debate is finished that the government will come to its s e nses , oome to its senses and have an independent study done on the impact on the environment in the Cat Arm development in the Harbour Deep a rea. Why not? Why not? Mr. Speaker, this particular development we are talk i ng about,by the way, which will cost the taxpayers of this Provinca in the. vicinity of $300 mil~ion, just to u s e round figures, the same thing 4446 , ..

May 15, 1981 Tape 1597 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: could have been accomplished by expanding the thermal generating plant at Holyrood - $150 million. AN HON. MEMBER: You would burn more oil. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, let me knock down that argument about burning more oil. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt): MR. NEARY: Order, please! Order, please! The han. the member iur LaPoile. Let me knock down that argument about burning more oil by expanding the thermal generating plant at Holyrood. Well, we are told one of the arguments the government is using is that this is only a stopgap measure.

And if it is a stopgap measure, then what happens two or three or four years down the line? Because there is no indication in this House that Muskrat Falls or the Lower Churchill will be developed to give us the supply of electricity that we need. NR. BARRY: There is in Ottawa. MR. NEARY: !·1r. Speaker, there is every indication in Ottawa, but there is no indication in this Province. Ottawa does not own - it is a provincial matter we are talking about. Ottawa does not own the Muskrat Falls or does not own the Lower Churchill, it belongs to this Province. What does Ottawa have to do with it? AN HON.

MEMBER: Fund it. MR. NEARY: Fund itr Oh, I see. You hit them over the head one day - MR. HANCOCK: And you want funding the next day. MR. NEARY: - you hit Ottawa over the head, you give them a punch in the gob, a punch in the mouth, and then you want them to fund the Muskrat Falls and the Lower Churchill. Well, is it not about time , if you want that, 4447 ·: .....

.May 15, 1981 Tape 1597 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: that you sat down and had some serious common-sense, meaningful negotiations with Ottawa on those projects? MR. WARREN: We do not have sensible government. MR. NEARY: It is several months and probably a couple of years - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt): MR. NEARY: Order, please! Order, please! It is probably, Mr. Speaker, a considerable period of time since this government had eyeball to eyeball, head-on negotiations with the Government of Canada on this particular development we are talking about, the Lower Churchill.

So $150 million could have done the same job. The government is telling us -that this project will only give us the electricity we need for the next four or five years and then we are in trouble again. HR. HOUSE: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, if you put this proposition to the people of this Province - let me put it this way to the Minister of Health (Mr. House) who suddenly now has become an expert on the environment - he knows nothing about health, his officials run that department; now he is going to tell us all he knows about the environment.

It is a well-known fact in the Department of Health that the minister does not make decisions - he is incapable of handling that department - that the officials have him in their pockets and he is like a puppet on a string, when they grind the organ he dances to the tune. And that is the way the Department of Health has been running. We will find out more about that on Tuesday. ~henthe member for St. Mary's- The Capes (Mr. Hancock) comes back into the House on Tuesday, we will hear some more about that Placentia situation, I hope. 4448

May 15, 1981 Tape 1597 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman cannot tell us anything ·about Placentia, because one of the big complaints about Placentia is that the member has refused to act on this serious matter of a doctor being barred from the hospital, not allowed to go in and see his patients . MR. J;>ATTERSON: He 1..ras not barred from the hospital (inaudible) that is a lie. MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Butt): Order, please! 4449 -~·

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1598 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: You heard the remark, Mr. Speake ·r? MR. SPEAKER (Butt): No. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Placentia (W. Patterson) used a very unparliamentary term and I ask Your Honour to ask him to withdraw it. If he cannot stand the heat let him get out of the kitchen. AN HON. MEMBER: He said it is a lie. It is a lie. MR. NEARY: Yes, that is right. That is un- parliamentary. MR. SPEAKER: Well, I did not hear the hon. rnern- ber's comment but~I will certainly - if it was unparliamentary I will check Hansard and - MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: member. MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER: member. MR. NEARY: before I sit down - MR. THOMS: MR. HANCOCK: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Thank you, Your Honour. I will undertake that for the hon. I beg your pardon? I will undertake that for the hon. Thank you. You know, Mr. Speaker, Stand up and withdraw it. Corne on be a man. No, he is not a man. Order, please! Everybody heard you, come on. Order, please! The hon. member for LaPoile. I thank Your Honour for the pro- tection of the Chair.

I must say, before I conclude my few remarks, that I am pleasantly surprised at the competence that Your Hon- our has developed in his position. And I ask the hon. member for Placentia, if he has the courage, if he has the intestinal fort- itude to repeat what he said a few moments ag.o, repeat it. He does not have the courage. I ask him to repeat, - 4450

May 15, 1981 MR. NEARY: MR. PATTERSON: MR. SPEAKER (BUTT) : MR. NEARY: MR. PATTERSON: withdrew his services. Tape No. 1598 EL -,2 not make a speech - Mr . Speaker, a point of order. A point of order. -repeat what the hon. gentleman said. I said,it is an untruth,that the doctor MR. NEARY: Ah, that is not what the hon. gentleman said·. The hon. gentleman does not have the courage to say .i +-. MR. PATTERSON: I said the doctor at Placentia withdrew his services, he was not barred . .: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR. PATTERSON: Quit worrying about Placentia dis- trict.

Corne up and run against me, any of you fellows over there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: The fact of the matter is - MR. PATTERSON: That is the way to settle it. AN HON. MEMBER: Corne on 'Bill' (inaudible). MR. NEARY: The fact of the matter is that the doctor was thrown out of the hospital. He is barred out of the hospital by the Minister of Health (W. House). He is not allowed to visit his patients in the hospital and I think that is out- rageous and scandalous. That is not the topic under consideration here, Mr. Speaker.

We are talking about the Cat Arm development and the impact it will have on the environment. Now, I think I have dealt adequat- ely with that matter except I want .to conclude that part of my few remarks by saying that this is only a stopgap measure. There is no indication down ~he road, two or three or four or five years,that the Lower Churchill or the Muskrat Falls will be developed. As a matter of fact, anybody following the proceedings in this House and following the activities of the government, will come to the conclusion that the government has thrown up its arms 4451 ' r:

May 15, 1981 Tape NO . 1598 EL - 3 MR. NEARY: in defeat. They have g~ven up on the Lower Churchill. They have given up. And, Mr . Speaker, again I have to use the example that what else could you expect from a government that is dominated by ministers who represent districts in the city of St. John's? This government has no concern for rural Ne.wfoundland, none at all. You can see that every day.

There is more discontent, more dis.content out in the rural parts of this Province, in the outp~rts of this Province,as we saw last night in Bonavista, as we will see in connection with this Cat Arm development, ~olfe discontent because the Provincial G0vern­ ment does not have a realistic policy for the fishery, dis ­ content, everywhere I go . Everywhere we go ,.,.e run into people who are disappointed with this government, discouraged and dis- c0ntented. Mr. Speaker, I would not be a bit surprised by the end of the year if you will not se.e - MR. HANCOCK: A rebe l lion in this Province. MR.

NEARY: No,· not a rebellion - MR. HANCOCK: Do not count on it. MR. NEARY: . But you will see, you are likely to see all kinds of demonstrations. You are going to see more people kicking up their heels. 4452

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1599 DW - 1 MR. S. NEARY: ~ou are going to see more people who are upset by the arrogance of this government, by the high­ handed tactics that they use. We are going to see more of that. And I am not one to· ·fan the fire of discontent ·But I will guarantee you this, Mr.

Speaker, these people will be well justified;with the high cost of living in this Province, record unemployment, the highest taxes in Canada, the highest per capita public debt in Canada, or the second highest in Canada, and the government .concentrating its effo:r:ts on foolishness like sending the Norma and Gladys around Newfoundland. They are not concerned about the envirqnment, they are not concerned about rural New­ foundland, Mr. Speaker, they are St. John's oriented. And I do not have anything against St. John's and I am not trying to stir up that old controversy of St.

John's versus the outports, out I think it is very unfa,:i.r 1 Hr. Speaker 1 it is unfair to have seven members out of eighteen, seven Cabinet ministers representing St. John's districts. That is unfair. You have eleven districts in St. John's, eleven members elected in St. John's, when right from Cape Bonavista right up to Cape Chidley and including Labrador, there are only ten members and one minister. Is it any wonder, Mr. Speaker, that the thinking of this government is city, is urban-oriented? Is it any wonder they have no regard for the environment?

Is it any wonder they would go out in a callous way and wipe out the last habitat that we have for wildlife in this Province? Is it any wonder they fling the property taxes at the outports, at the rural areas? And the argument they use - and I am surprised the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) got sucked into this one - 'T,Vell, we are changing it in St. John's, St. John's pays the property tax,so why should not Bonavista and why should not all these other places'? That is typical St. John's thinking! AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. 4453 •

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1599 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: My hon. friend just said, 'That is right', well, he just confirmed what we already know, that this government-seven minister~~out of eleven districts in St. John's,seven of them are in the Cabinet. No wonder, Mr. Speaker, no wonder the rural areas of this Province are being neglected! NO · wonder the wildlife habitats are being wiped out! All they can think about is St. John's. And if St.

John's only had one member in the Cabinet,through the mere fact that it is the capital city they would get all kinds of attention, the media being herl;l and the newspapers and everything being here. But seven memb.ers in that Cabinet is un;fair. And that is the real reason, Mr. Speaker, that is the real reason they ride roughshod. Once you go outside the overpass it is a different atmosphere in this Province altogether! Different atmosphere altogether! AN HON. MEMBER: They come cap in hand. MR. S. NEARY: No, they do not come cao in hand.

They are proud Newfoundlanders, disappointed with some of the outport members on the other side who have suddenly become city slickers. They have as much say now in the Cabinet as my litte chihuahua. They do not care about the medical prob­ lems in Placentia, they do not care about the wildlife, they do not care about the environment, they do not care about the fishery, they do not care about the property tax. Sock it to them! Give it to the poor old peasants out there! Give it to them. I remember 4454

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1600 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: 'Joey' used to say one time, he used to refer, jokingly of course, in this House to Her Majesty's outport government. He used to refer to it as Her Majesty's outport government. Now, we have Her Majesty's city government­ seven out of the eighteen in the Cabinet, eleven members elected in St. John's. The member for Humber Valley (Mr. House) has as much chance now of getting his point across in the Cabinet as the man in the moon. He is outnumbered and out­ classed. And so, Mr.

Speaker, I am delighted to have an opportunity to say these few words about the Cat Arm development and the impact ~t will have on the environment. I would have liked to have more time to talk about the offshore oil developments and the environment and so forth and the impact it will have on the fishery,but perhaps I will save that, Mr. Speaker, for the Committee of the Whole when I·have a few more points to make. And I want to thank Your Honour for being so tolerant and I want to thank Your Honour for giving me the protection of the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. Minister of Health. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words.in support of this bill. I know from the speeches that we have heard that nobody would know exactly what bill we are debating. It seems like we are talking about cottage hospitals and you name it,and presumably it is the bill respecting the Department of the Environment and not the Environmental Assessment Act. So I am going to have to respond somewhat to it in referring to the particular topics under consideration.

But I want to con~ratulate the minister, of course, the new minister who, I think, started off tremendously in his portfolio by getting this bill before the House . and, of course, th.e other actions that he has taken. And I feel I should speak on this because, of course, environmental health is also a 4455 ~.

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1600 SD - 2 MR. HOUSE: part of the Department of Health mandate and, of course, this particular one now, which is a separate Department of the Environment, just goes to show the kind of emphasis that this government is placing on the environment. And we hear on the other side, of course, us being castigated because of the fact that we· are running slipshod over the country. The very fact, Mr.

Speaker, of the Environmental Assessment Act, the very fact that last year there was an assessment in Labrador on the Kitts-Michelin project and it was deferred, the very fact that we went with a Royal Commission last year to look further at the effects of the spruce budworm spray, they are all indications of this government's interest in seeing that the environment is improved and kept in a good state for the environmental health of the people of this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, I had not intended to talk on this particular bill except for the fact of the speech yesterday by the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr.

Flight). And I went home last night and I went through the Environmental Assessment Act to see exactly where we were breaking the law, where we were falling down on the legislation. Andthe fact is,that everything has been followed to the letter of the law. And when you get to the Department of the Environment, the people working there are capable people, people working in the best interest of the Province, they are working for the people of the Province. The tourist people, the wildlife peopl~ are working in the interest of the Province. Hydro is working in· the interest of the Province.

These are not running slipshod and doing things that are adverse, it is being done in the best interest of the Province. And I am very, very happy with the decision that has been reach .ed. The Department of Environement sent back to Hydro to get further information and that information was received. Now, Mr. Speak .er, I know something about the areai I have canvassed fairly well the area concerned 1 4456

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1600 SD - 3 MR. HOUSE: the bottom of White Bay to Jackson's Arm, Pollards Point, Sop's Arm area and, of course, the people are very delighted that the project is going to go ahead . They are delighted because of the fact .: 4457 ... -

May 15, 1981 Tape No.l601 NM - 1 MR. HOUSE: it is going to be a $287 million project that will stimulate the total area of the West Coast. And,of course,they are certain, they are confident, that there is not going to be any detrimental environmental effects. I think if you know that area- anybody who knows that area knows that a small amount of flooding in that particular area of the Province is not going to have any impact whatsoever on the habitat of that area, the wildlife habitat of that area. It is the beginning of the Northern • Peninsula, a ~omplete stretch of high land running almost to St. Anthony.

And,of course,it also spreads out across the interior. So it is not going to have an impact. As a matter of fact, it certainly will not affect the communities at all. It is so far away from any commuity as to not have the slighest chance of an impact. And, of course 1 it is such a small area to be flooded,that it just cannot have the effects that we are talking about over here. And I am confident - MR. FLIGHT: Why do you not look at it? MR. HOUSE: I have looked at it. I have looked at it.

I have flown over it, and I know the area and I will say that there is hardly anybody over there who knows anything about the area and knows the contours of the land. MR. BARRY: Mr. Flight has never been there? MR. HOUSE: Never been there. MR. BARRY: He has never been there? MR. ROUSE: Mr. Speaker, so I am confident, and I put my defence, we have followed the letter of the . law. Now1 the wildlife people - MR. FLIGHT: You have not. You have not. MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Order, please! 4458

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1601 NM - 2 MR. KOUSE: The letter of the law has been followed. The Wildlife Federation, obviously, are going to have concerns. But that information has been available for some time. ' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HOUSE: Well, Mr. Speaker, there were two arguments given by the member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) yesterday about why this should not go ahead.

One was because of the habitat, the wildlife habitat being ruined,which has been proven to be wrong by the studies that have been mad~ 1 and the other was,of course,the opening up of the country, to the people, from possibly White Bay, getting in the country. MR. FLIGHT: MR. KOUSE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Baird): for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Those are what the two were, A point of order, the hon. member A point of order. Isolate them (inaudible) not trust the people to go in there. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! . MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, if the mLnister .is going to quote me then he is going to have to quote me properly and he cannot attach motives. At no point in my speech yesterday did I indicate that the project should not go ahead. Nowhere in my hour long speech did I indicate the project should not go ahead. I simply s·aid it should not go ahead until it has got the benefit of an environmental stud~ that it has not had. So, Mr. Speaker ~ MR. MARSHALL : "MR. SPEAKER: hon. Kouse Leader. To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the 4459

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1601 NM - 3 MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker, this is disgraceful. The hen. gentleman has gotten up in this House and interrupted the Minister of Health (Mr. House) in his debate. AN RON. MEMBER: Shocking. MR. MARSHALL : SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR . SPEAKER (Baird) : MR. HANCOCK: it is (inaudible}. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: ~ SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: It is disgraceful. Oh, oh! Order, please! Like I said before, You have got more time (inaudible). Oh, oh! Order, please! Oh, oh! Order, please! We have a point of order. I would like to hear the hen. House Leader. MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr.

Speaker, it is not. It is a matter of disorder. Somebody gets up - you know my thin-headed friend on the other side, who is interrupting continually there, ~you get up on a point of order you have to have a point of order. When you get up on a point of order, Mr. Speaker, just to interrupt for the purpose of saying that what somebody said you said in debate is untrue, it becomes disruption of the debate itself. The hen. gentleman has an adequate time to speak in this debate, has his turn in accordance with the rules and should use them. The fact of the matter is the hen. gentleman, Mr.

Speaker, is smarting over what the hen. Minister of Health is saying,that he is against development in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, I think there was no point of order. The hen. member took the opportunity to clarify remarks that were attributed to him. 4460 .... ll

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 16.01 NM - 4 MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, thank you. I was just saying that what the member was .talking about yesterday, about the two basic reasons why he was against it - MR. FLIGHT: Against what? MR.· ROUSE: Against the proje· c~ going ahead. MR. FLIGRT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. I will stay on the point of order until the hon. member's time runs out. MR. SPEAl<ER (Baird) : for Windsor-Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: A point of order, the ho.n. member I am entitled to the protection of the Chair and r have been told since I have come into this House,that another member cannot attach motives to something a member said • And I did not - he clearly said then, Mr. Speaker, that I am against the project. And at no time in my speech did I indicate that I was against the project - MR. BARRY: Are you for the project? MR. HOUSE: Are you for the project? MR. FLIGHT: I am not against the project, but I asked for an environmental study. to stop. MR. MARSHALL : of order. MR. SPEAKER: House Leader. MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr.

Speaker, I want him Mr. Speaker, that is not a point To the point of order, the hon. Again,if the hon. gentleman wants to set up rules let him refer to Beauchesne. Now,what is in Beauchesne is quite clearly that one is not allowed to attach unavowed or base motives. 4461

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1601 N~1 - 5 MR. MARSHALL: Now,you know, if the hon. gentleman gets up to speak he has a motive, he has a motive to get up, Mr. Speaker. His motivation is to stand up. His motivation is to mov7 his jaws,which we see quite an exhibition of daily from the ·hon. gentleman 1 but that is not necessarily a bad motive. rt is harq to bear but it is not a bad moti've. So , I mean,if the hon. gentleman wants to get up on points of order, he should know what the rules of the House are. MR. BARRY: that point of 'Order. MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, is Mr.

Speaker, if I could address To the point of order, the hon. I tfiink what we see here, 4462 1:

May 15,1981 Tape No. 1602 AH-1 MR. BARRY: the member for Windsor- Buchans (Mr. Flight), not being able ·to have anybody listen to him when he was making his own speech ., trying to get some attention by interrupting another member when he is giving a very good speech which completely demolishes the points~ the frivolous and weak points that were raised by the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) yesterday.So it is like the Minister of Labour. (Mr. Dinn) would say, a holding of one's breath in an attempt to get attention.

He is continuously distrupting the order of this House in an attempt to draw attention to his weak arguments. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Baird): To the point of order. The hon. - MR. HODDER: Methinks they do protest too much. , MR. BARRY: Can you not get them under control? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order. There is no point of orderJit is a difference of opinion between two hon. gentleman. The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, I was discussing the two arguments being used by the member yesterday, one about the habitat being destroyed and the other about people getting into the country from Jackson's Arm, Sop's Arm or from any part of Newfoundland,I suppose. Now, these are two noble argliments. You know, these are two great arguments but that same member, Mr. Speaker, that same member is not so concerned about people getting into the country around the Buchans area, where you have the road going from Buchans to Howley opening up the country to would-be 4463

May 15,1981 Tape No. 1602 AH-2 MR. HOUSE: people who wanted to go in there hunting. He is not so concerned about the opening up of the country between Buchans and Southwest Brook - MR. BARRY: Cutting . the. Isl·and in two. MR. HOUSE: - and cutting the Island in two and opening up wildlife to the total population. So, Mr. Speaker, I think we all want to look at it, perhaps, from our own perspective. I am looking at it from the total Newfoundland per~pective. MR. FLIGHT: - The Environment Act was a - MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! MR.

HOUSE: I am looking at it from the Newfoundland perspective. we have followed the letter of the law and - MR. BARRY: And the spirit. MR.HOUSE: The letter and the spirit certainly. And I say that I am very delighted that this side of the House , this government,is going to go ahead with this project. You cannot stand the prosperity, seeing something good happening in Newfoundland. So,Mr. Speaker, I am supporting the bill and I am certainly supporting the project. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! The hon.mernber for st.

Mary's- Thank you, Mr.Speaker. Hear, hear! I make no wonder they are going to support it, Mr. Speaker. We all realize it is the first thing that this administration has done since they got 4464 .-..{ {.'

May 15,1981 Tape No. 1602 AH-3 MR. HANCOCK: elected a little over two years ago. I guess they are going to support it. If they do not soon do something,they will be kicked out of office because the people of this Province are going to revolt against them. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: There will be riots in the streets by the Fall of the year. MR. HANCOCK: There is ·a lOt of discontent , Mr. Speaker, around this Province right now.

And after visitin·g my district_yesterday,I can tell you they are . not at all pleased with the actions taken by this government and not only in environment, Mr.Speaker, but in the well- being, the ~ay this Province should be run and the way they thought it was going to be run by the administration that was elected by the people to run it. This Province has gone backward, Mr. Speaker, in the last twelve years. We have seen very little improvements. We have seen study on top of study, on top of study being carried out and authorization given by the minister. Mr.

Speaker, this bill- the only beef I have about this bill, and it is a good bill in a sense, Mr. Speaker, because it sets up a separate Department of the Environrnent,which we should have had twenty years ago and probably the environment would not be in the mess it is in now,but this bill, Mr. Speaker,gives too ·much power to the minister, it gives too much power to the minister. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HANCOCK: And that is one of the biggest beefs that I have with this bill, Mr. Speaker. We have seen exactly what this bill can do.

There are people around this Province, groups around this Province who will be looking for an independent study and it is up to the minister, Mr. Speaker, whether or not they get that study, 4465

Tape No. 1602 AH-4 MR. HANCOCK: one man, Mr. Speaker. One man,·Mr. Speaker, is going to determine whether or not there should be an independent study done in this Province, Mr. Speaker, and I am telling you right now there are going to be a lot of people revolting against Car Arm. There are going to be a lot of people revolt against Cat Arm going ahead in the first place,because it is only going ahead, Mr.

Speaker, because of the inaction by this government over the last three or four years, and ever since the Tories got elected.We have seen the Upper Churchill developed, and some people say given away 1_ under the Liberal administration , Mr. Speaker. We have seen blasts go of on both sides of the gulf during the administration of this government that is now in power, Mr. Speaker. We have seen nothing started on the Lower Churchill, Gull Island or Muskrat Falls and if it had have been started,Mr.

Speaker, and this government had taken the initiative that was put into them by the people of this Province when they elected them some twelve years ago,we would not need Cat Arm. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HANCOCK: We would not rieed Cat Arm , Mr. Speaker, and by not needing Cat Arm, y~u would not need to tamper with the environment in that area and destroy one of the large moose hunting resorts that we ~ave in this Province, Mr. Speaker. Because by destroying the environment you destroy this Province and when you destroy this Province , Mr. Speaker, you destroy everything in it. 4466

May 15, 1981 Tape 1603 EC - 1 MR. HANCOCK: The environment is very important to this Province, Mr. Speaker, as is tourism, and I would say tourism is probably the only industry outside of oil and gas. if it ever comes onstrearn - and I doubt very much at times,with the actions we have seen by this government, if we are ever going to see oil and gas. I have said it before 1 you will see oil and gas come onstream, production will start 1 when Peckford g~es. Mr. Speaker, I have said it before and I will keep on saying that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. HANCOCK: Sooner or later we will MR.

FLIGHT: (Inaudible) Barry. MR. HANCOCK: Yes, I think the Minister of Mines and Ene~gy (Mr. Barry) would make an excellent Premier. If the Province keeps going the way it is going right now, Mr. Speaker, the Liberals are going to be in power in this Province in the next general election· I will be surprised, 11r. Speaker, if we will not have to appoint an Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Order, please! It is quite difficult for the Chair to hear. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: I would have to check Hansard. MR . HANCOCK: Well, Cat Arm will go ahead, Mr. Speaker.

I have to support it because Newfoundlanders c need the jobs. There is not a· Newfoundlander who does not need the job. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. HANCOCK: But once again let;me reiterate, Mr. Speaker, that it is only going to go ahead because of the inaction by this irresponsible qovernrnent. Tbe y should have had Labrador developed years and years ago 4467

May 15, 1981 Tape 1603 EC - 2 MR. HANCOCK: and they should continue to push to have Labrador developed so we wili not have to have any more Cat Arms. I am sure if it were · put to a vote tomorrow and the people of this Province were asked what they would rather have - SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Order, please! MR. HANCOCK: - would they rather see another generating plant in Holyrood at extra cost ..,.

I know the hydro rates are ridiculous right now - but if you surveyed this Province, and I would advise the minister to do it .: before he goes ahead and develops Cat Arm 1 what would they rather see, another generating station at Holyrood or would they like to see the environmental action of that whole area just thrown out the window, Mr. Speaker? I would be surprised if the people of this Province would not rather pay in the short-term. And this is only in the short-term, Cat Arm is only in the short-term, that is all.

It is only going to look after our needs for four or five years after it is developed and then we are going to have to go ahead and develop Labrador to continue the power supply for this Province, th~t we need in this Province,.Mr. Speaker. HR. PATTERSON: lile are not going to develop it and give it away. MR. HANCOCK: You are not going to develop it and give it away. You should never have to develop Cat Arm. If you were doing the job you were elected to do, Cat Arm should never have to be develqped. MR. PATTERSON: Or the Upper Salmon, nor Hinns La~e. - --·----- --· . MR.

HANCOCK : 'That is right. lile have one of the largest, richest resources in Labrador just sitting there and it would have about one-tenth of the impact on the environment that Cat Arm is going to have; it would have 4468

May 15, 1981 Tape 1603 EC - 3 MR. HANCOCK: one-tenth of the impact on the environment that it is going to have in the Cat Arm region, Mr. Speaker. Here we are talking about an area where the moose population is going to be affected and I understand it is - I do not know if it is the biggest but it is the second biggest moose population on the lsland. They are going to flood several hundred m ~ les of feeding ground for those animals. Birds and beavers, every species in that area is going to be endanger -ed, Mr. Speaker.

You have the beaver, the otter, everything - and here we are trying to protect our ~nvironment, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: It will be too wet for the trout, ~!R. HANCC'CK : It will be too wet for the trout, yes. It will be too wet for the minister to go up to catch them , because I am afraid he is not going to fie around when it is developed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HANCOCK: Well, Mr. Speaker, this is what we have seen. This Cat Arm is the result of the inaction of this government since they got elected, Mr. Speaker.

I say it and I will keep on saying it and I hop~ to hell the press picks it up, Mr. Speaker. Because this is exactly what is happening right now. We have one of the richest resources in Labrador and for the benefit of Labrador and Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. And I mainly say that because of the residents of the Labrador portion. Once again the y feel that they have been neglected, they have been betrayed by the people they have elected to represent them in the House of Assembly. AN HON. MEMBER: Not on this side. MR.

HANCOCK : I cannot say on our side, no, that is true ,' because all of the members on this side, Mr. Speaker, if they had a choice and it were put to the 4469

May 15, 1981 Tape 1603 EC - 4 MR. HANCOCK: Liberal Opposition tomorrow: What would you develop, Cat Arm or Gull Island or the Lower Churchill or Muskrat Falls? I am sure we would get 100 per cent support to develop one of the sites, and the most economical one to be developed in Labrador. We would not be discussing it - because if Mr . Smallwood had stayed around or any of the Liberal member on this side, the Lower Churchill would now be onstream. ,Well, Mr.

Speaker, let me point out that there is definitely a need for a separate Department of the Environment and the minister has his work cut out for him if he stays there. He only has a couple of years left and he may not be there after that 1 but somebody on this side will be responsible for that department. But with onshore oil and gas coming onstream, Mr. Speaker - and I do not know when it is going to come onstream, it will come onstream shortly, we hope. But there is definitely a need for a separate Department of the Environment to protect what little we have left, Mr. Speaker.

We have seen this Province being polluted over the years by hunters, people driving in cars, and the act needs to be enforced more. There should be heavy penalties put on people for tampering with the environment and littering the environment, especially with offshore oil and gas, Mr. Speaker, to make sure that regulations are in place in case an oil spill ever occurs. we have to have the measures put in place to make sure that nothing happens to our fishery, Mr. Speaker.

And that will come under the Department of the Environment, . which is, like I say, one of the most important departments to be set aside by this government and it is one of the few things that they have done in a positive way. Well, once again, Mr. Speaker, I say that this bill puts too much power in the hands of the minister. ~ lot of people in this Province 4470

May 15, 1981 Tape 1603 EC - 5 MR. HANCOCK: I had it said to me yesterday, Mr. Speaker, 'We are starting to live under a dictatorship . ' That was said to me on no less 4471 .. ...

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1604 DW - 1 MR. D. HANCOCK: than five or six occasions yesterday, Mr. Speaker. I never asked for it, people carne up and told me that they feel that rightnow this Province is being ruled by a dictator, it is under a dictatorship. And the older people, _ Mr. Speaker, are the ones who are most upset by the attitude displayed by this Premier because they were the people who went over and fought so that th-is Premier and . guys on opposite_sides of the House could have the freedom that they fought for. They are very - SOME HON. ~EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. D.

HANCOCK: - concerned about their rights that are being taken away. There are a lot of rights being taken away by this government, from the people, and the people are going to soon realize what rights have been taken away from them. This bill takes away rights of the ordinary people. The ordinary people do not have a say. It is all in the hands of the minister, Mr. Speaker, which developments are going to take place in this Province over the term of this adrninistra- tion. MR. WARREN: It sounds like a mafia. MR. D. HANCOCK: Like Hyd~o - this is what I get a kick out of, Mr.

Speaker, · Hydro goes and comes up with thei·r own study, no independent study. And what is Hydro going to recommend to government, that they do not go ahead with Cat Arm or Upper Salmon or Bay d' Espoir? Like beans they are, Mr. Speaker, like beans they are! Well, Mr. Speaker, there are other things in this bill that surprise me _and these are the waterways around this Province. It gives the minister the right to designate which waterways or which water supply systems can be used for swimming, boating - or if you have swimming and boating going on naturally AN HON. MEMBER: Hunting and fishing. 4472

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1604 MR. D. HANCOCK: - and hunting or fishing, that you are going to have pollution and the pollution - they will soon be landing aircraft and handling gasoline in those waterways if the minister - DW - 2 MR. WARREN: They do. They do, I have seen it. MR. D. HANCOCK: They do now, that is right, we received a couple of calls last year in one of the areas of Stephenville. Mr. Speaker, I do not agree with it. I think there are about two areas in this Province that can probably be designated,that the minister can say can be used for public~swimming or boating.

Gander Lake would have to be one and there is - somebody told me yesterday where the other one was that definitely could be used. I do· not think the people of St. John's will stand for people swimming or boating or fishing or landing aircraft in Windsor Lake, Mr. Speaker. I can tell you right nm'l - a few years ago we heard what .happened on the Open Line programmes when people were seen fishing around Windsor Lake.

And I will tell you, you go out around the smaller communities - I visited some of them over the last few days and I have said to people, 'How would you feel if someone was allowed to go swimming or hunting or boating in your water supply system'. 'What! Why who is going to do that to us', they said, 'there is nobody foolish enough to do that'. Well, this is power that will be vested in the minister by this bill. I do not think it is right. I do not think the minister should have the power to do this. I think the people in the area should have the power.

The minister can have a cabin up on Gander Lake and he go up now and say, 'I want to go swimming in my lake. It is my lake'. And the minister can go ahead and designate Gander Lake as an area where swimming, boating,hunting and fishing can take place. I do not think it is right. I think there is too much power vested in the minister. 4473

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1604 DW - 3 MR. D. HANCOCK: ~<'1i th these few comments, Mr. Speaker, I would like to wind up. But once again I would lik.e to say that we have to go ahead ~orith Cat Arm because of the jobs, Mr. Speaker. And that is the only reason I am supporting Cat Arm. If it were not for the jobs, the Newfoundlanders needing the jobs,I would delay it,or if I could do anvthina to delav · it I would delay it until Lower Churchil~ Gull Island or Muskrat Falls are developed. And if this government had taken the initiative some years ago, Mr.

Speaker, this project would need not take place and,therefore 1 we would not need to tamper with the environment in the area,., Thank you. .: SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we are seeing members opposite straining, doing their utmost to try and develop an issue here, an issue which does not exist. I sometimes think members opposite forget the legislation that is before the House. They are delaying a bill to set up a new Department of the Environment, a department which is needed, which is needed, Mr.

Speaker, in this Province,which,when members opposite formed the government in this Province,you never heard the word 'environ- ment' mentioned. 'Environment' was a dirty word, it was not a four letter word but it was a dirty word nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, as far as the crowd opposite were concerned. And all of sudden they are holier than thou, they are holier than thou, Mr. Speaker, if they think 'there is any way they might be able to delay this government from getting on with what is an excellent project, a project, Mr.

Speaker, which is going to save the electrical consumer in this Province millions of dollars every year. Now there is a rate hearing, Mr. Speaker, presently going on before our Public Utilities Board here in this city. I was interested to see today that in addition to Newfoundland Light and Power,which usually intervenes,and in addition to the Federation of Municipalities, which government funds to permit it to intervene on behalf of the consumer 1 we are going to have the Liberal 4474

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1605 SD - 1 MR. BARRY: Party of Newfoundland intervening at the rate hearing. Now I hope, Mr. Speaker, that the Liberal Party's position, as set out before the consumers of this Province at that rate hearing, is the same as they are setting out here today except for the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hancock) who, because of the jobs, not becau~e of the electrical consumer, because he has the same short term . mentality that Liberal Parties have had in this Province, the Liberal governments when they were in have had, the same mentality, build it because it has j9bs.

Well, in this case he happens to be right for the wrong reason because in addition to jobs, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Baird) MR. BARRY: (Inaudible) Order, please! - in addition to 700 jobs at peak or som7 15,000 person months of employment that this great hydro electric project - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: Speaker - MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! - will provide - Oh, oh. Order, please! - in addition to the jobs, Mr. (Inaudible) Order, please! I would ask the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) to restrain himself. MR.

NEARY: All kinds of fish plants. SOME HON MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, Barry's theorem applying again,th.at as you start to get to the bone, as you start to get them where it hurts over there, they try and drown you out. That is the Liberal Party's notion of democracy, shout 4475

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1605 SD - 2 MR. BARRY: down anybody who opposes you, Mr. Speaker, try and shout them down, that is the great parliamentary democracy we see shown on the other side of the House. Well, Mr. Speaker, we on this side will not be shouted down. Now,the member opposite was right when he said that this project should go ahead. He was wrong when he said it should only go ahead because of the jobs. This is not just a make work project, Mr. Speaker, this is a project which is going to displace 1.1 million barrels of oil annually. true - MR. FLIGHT: MR. BARRY: And, Mr.

Speaker, if what they were saying was .: (Inaudible) - that it is not needed in this Province, Mr. Speaker, we are · part of a greater nation, we are part of the nation Canada. We have a federal government which is trying to save oil, to save the expensive foreign imported oil wherever they can. And here we can help them save 1.1 million barrels of oil a year and members opposite are saying we should let that be wasted. Mr. Speaker, we will displace that 1.1 million barrels a year and by so doing we will save the consumer millions of dollars a year.

Now when the Liberal Party intervenes befor'e the Pub'lic Utili ties Board over the next few days, I hope that they have the courage, the intestinal fortitude, to get up and tell the electrical consumer in this Province that they want them to spend in 1~85 something in exce.ss of $40 million a year more than they would have to spend if Cat Arm were not going ahead. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ah. MR. BARRY: Is the Liberal Party and members . opposite,are they going to have the courage to do that?

Are they going to have the courage to go down to this rate hearing and say to the consume~ now,listen,there are fifty-five moose­ is it? - or 555 moose - 4476 . ...... , .

May 15, 1981 AN HON. MEMBER: MR. BARRY: are ten salmon - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : MR. BARRY: Tape No. 1605 so - 3 Fifty-five. - there are fifty-five moose, there Oh, oh. - twenty salmon, Mr. Speaker, Oh, oh. now we want you to spend - Oh, oh. Order, please! - in excess of $40 million a year electrical cons~er of Newfoundland, we want you to spend in excess of $40 million a year in 1984-85 because, Mr. Speaker MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) MR. BARRY: -•we, such as the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr.

Flight), who have never seen this site who have never been there - hands up who on the other side of the House has ever been to Cat Arm, hands up. Not a arm raised, look at this and here they are getting up and they are talking about ' 'oh, the damage that is going to be done.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. BARRY: Oh, what a bunch of frauds, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure that is parliamentary, I take it back if it is not, Mr .. speaker.

What an attempt to run red herrings across this great project, this great Hydro electric project which will save the electrical consumer in this Province millions of dollars and which will show a very responsible position on the part of our government and the people of our Province - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: -where we are prepared to help the federal government get the imports of foreign oil down. Mr. Speaker, consider how lucky we are , There 4477 ,,

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1606 EL, - 1 MR. BARRY: are other provinces, our neighbouring provinces• Nova Scotia going wild trying to get additional electrical energy 1 having to go for coal, having to go with the great environmental pro­ blems created by acid rain as a result. We have our little Province of PEI over there, less people in the province than here,paying the high­ est electrical rates and with nowhere to turn, with nowhere to turn to get their electricity except to continue to burn oil. We have, Mr.

Speaker, New Brunswick which has had to fall back upon nuclear power.Now,~e members opposite saying they would rather see nuclear power for Newfoundland or for Canada? What they are say­ ing is that they would rather see us burn oil at Holyroo~, Mr. Speaker'? MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Order, please! The Chair . is having great difficulty in hearing. Hansard must be recorded and I am sure that the Hansard employees will have great difficulty in hearing what is going on with so many people. talking back and forth the floor.

While I am on my feet, I am sure all members would like to welcome to the Gallery fifty members from the Wind Ensemble Band from Oakland Collegiate in Toronto, along with several members of the teaching staff. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Energy. MR. BARRY: ~1R. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: Hear, hear! The hon. Minister of Mines and Mr. Speaker, these young men - Say something nice now. Order, please! These young· men and women from Canada, I am sure,from Toronto, I am sure are going to quite interested - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 4478

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1606 EL - 2 MR. BARRY: in this debate and I am sure that they, who are faced with having th~ nuclear reactors that they have around them in Ontario, if they had our op­ tions with respect to hydro electricity, Mr. Speaker, it would not take them very long to chose to develop hydro electricity - clean hydro electric energy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: And, Mr. ~peaker, we see mem- bers opposite who are desperate to try and reverse their failing fortunes. Mr. Speaker, there are as many policies over there as there are members.

And I have,just in the last couple of days, I have seen some of the most glaring instances of people either not understanding,or attempting to confuse the people, attempting to fool the people, which ha.d been a definite approach of their party when they were in power for many years, and the people showed them that you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. ~ou can fool some of the people some of the time, MR. STIRLING: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: time - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: people all of the time. MR. SPEAKER: MR.

BARRY: people all of the time. MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: A point of order, the hon. the - all of the people some of the Oh, oh! -but you cannot fool all of the Order, please! You cannot fool the majority of the Order, please! We have a point of order. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. It is not unusual for the Mines and Energy Minister (L.Barry) to get up on every excuse, on every bill 4479

May 15, 1981 / Tape No. 1606 EL - 3 MR. STIRLING: and make a mines and energy speech but we are talking about the Environment Bi.ll and the environment bill that he is trying to confuse the people about .is the fact that under the E_nvironment Bill, Mr. Speaker ..;. AN H.ON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : MR. STIRLING: You are too late~ tno l~te. Order, please! · Under the Environment Bill, the first project under the Environment Bill,they do away with the Bill. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we have listened now for most of the man's time and he has not talked about the Environment Bill and the fact that he is going to allow people into the water supplies of the various systems and he has not talked about the fact that this is the first project and they have not used the Environment Bill and the Assessment Act. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us get back to the main - MR. BARRY: It is not his speech, Mr. Speaker. It is my speech. Do you mind? MR. STIRLING: Let us get back to the main issue, Mr. Speaker - MR. BARRY: Do you mind? MR. STIRLING: - and some relevance. MR.

SPEAKER: To the point of order, while some degree of flexibility is allowed, I think that debate has,been far-reaching on both sides. The Chair has exercised some degree I of flexibility. The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the point that I am making is just as r they have on two other instances in the last week dttempted to fool the people of this Province, ~hey are attempting to do it again on their

interpretation of the Environ- mental Assessment Act. Sit down and let me finish my speech. 4480

May 15, 1981 MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRL ING: Tape No. 1606 EL - 4 A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. the (Inaudible) Order, please! Mr. Speaker, if you check Hansard there is no question now that he is imputing motives when he says we are attempting to fool the people. MR. TULK: That is correct. MR. STIRLING: Now, Mr. Speaker, he has gone com- pletely out of o~der, Mr. Speaker. And he has to withdraw that and get back to speaking on the Bill where there is some rele­ vance, Mr. Speaker.

I know he is upset because he is very weak on this, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the poi~t of order - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: God has sroken. Order, please! Would the hon. the Leader of the Opposition restrain himself, please. You got up on your point of order. I would like to rule on. it, To the point of order. secause of the noise-and I have called order several times this past few minutes- the Chair unfortunately did not hear the remarks. I would have to check it out with Hansard so I will reserve judge­ ment. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, 1ust as they have , and I repeat , ! am not saying that they are trying to mislead this House. They know that they cannot mislead anybody over here. We see right through them 4481

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1607 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: every time . And we will make sure that the people of this Province see right through them. Just as they attempted to distort the whole notion of parliamentary democracy yesterday,when they tried to say that there was some limitation on the conditions that the Premier set for who was in his Cabinet, as if it was not under our parliamentary system of government, the Premi~r's choice as to who he has in his Cabinet. He does not have to give any reason for who he brings in or who he does not take in or who he asks to leave. He does not need any reasons.

And instead members opposite get up and portray these guidelines, these conflict of interest guidelines - MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: What has that got to do with the environment? - which I suppose they are afraid are still going to be in force if they ever get back in power again, and that is why they are trying to fight them. That is why they are trying to fight them. MR. NEARY: It all started - MR. BARRY: Instead he is portrayingit as if the Premier were giving himself additional power.

I would suggest to the Leader of the Opposition, he had better do a little bit of reading on parliamentary democracy if he ever I hopes to get the government of this Province , because he is not going to do it the way he is going now. What is he going to do? He is going to have a vote amongst his caucus as to who his ministers are, who his Cabinet is going to be. Is that the way he is going to do it? AN HON. MEMBER: Oh yes. MR. BARRY: Good luck. I say good luck to you, Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: You would be happy. MR. BARRY: And then we have the Leader of the - 4482

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1607 NM - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEA"KER (_Baird·l: Order, please! MR. BARRY: - Opposition and the member for St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr. Hancock) on the question of sharing of offshore revenue. They get up and they say, "No, we are not going to vote with the government on this division of revenue - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To the point of order, the hon. House Leader for the Opposition. MR. HODDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The member is not being relevant. His remarks are straying from the bill. Mr. Speaker, the point of this bill - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

HODDER: - the point of this bill deals with the creation of the Department of the Environment. And members on this side of the House have been making points regarding that particular bill and the Assessment Act that comes with it. As well, Mr. Speaker, we have made some points which obviously sting the member over there - MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: heard the point of order. MR. HODDER: order yet, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: Order, please! - in that the Order, please! I think that I have I have not gotten to my point of Well, ! suggest that you do, please. Obviously, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. members opposite are stinging because since 1972 they have been promisinq that the Lower Churchill - SOME RON. ME.M.BERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! 4483 .-,!

May 15, 1981 Tape No. 1607 NM - 3 MR . BARRY: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, and I am serious about this now. I am serious about tQis. MR . SPEAKER (Baird): The hon . Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: The members have been going on with their little games but I want, Mr. Speaker, a ruling from yourself on a matter .: 4484 ··~

May 1!', 1981 Tape No. 1608 AH-1 ' MR.BARRY: of privilege to as whether I am entitled to have my time cut back by the spurious points of order which members opposite, not just today but on just about every occasion when I have gotten up and started getting at them over the last week, they started getting up on points of order and I ask the Speaker, and whoever helps you in the House in doing this, to check back over the record of Hansard and see how many points of order have been upheld and how many times they have gotten up on spurious points of order and the amount of time that has been cut into my speaking time as a result and I ask the protection of the Chair so that I can give a speech in this House the same as any other member.

SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER (Baird): To the point qf privilege. The hon. House Leader. MR. HODDER: There is no point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I rose on a point of order because the minister was not being relevant and I was attempting to explain why I rose on that point of order. There is no such thing as a paine of privilege here. It is just an attempt by the member to try and justify his conduct and his straying from the words that he has been saying. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of privilege. The hon. House Leader. MR.

MARSHALL: There is a point of privilege and a very real point of privilege that the hon. minister brought up. It is in this book and it is quite clear that points of order themselves can become disruptive, Mr. Speaker. AN HON.MEMBER: (Inaudible) the book. MR. MARSHALL: If the han. gentleman wants 4485

May 15,1981 Tape No. 1608 AH-2 MR. MARSHALL: to see the page, it is page 11 and page 3 8' ])1r • Speaker, as well. Now the!>e noints of privilege constitute interruptions in the debate and by bringing up these points of order they are infringing on the privileges of the hon. member, and indeed of this House,for the hon. member to be able to speak. All the hon. member is doing ,Mr. Speaker, is ente .ring into this debate and giving back into the debate answers which were, in effect ,, raised by the hon. gentleman there opposite. All day yesterday and all today we have heard nothing.

This is the Environmental bill and was about Cat Arm, Mr. Speaker, and ~t comes under the responsibility _of the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry). What more natural but for him to get up and rebut it? And these points of order, Mr. Speaker, in effe~t,are a very grave breach of privilege. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird) Order, please! I think I have heard enough on the points of privilege from both sides. First to the point of order, there was no point of order but a difference of opinion between the hon.members.

With regard to the point of privilege, I think that on occasion this House has tolerated,although we should not. Sometimes ther~ are spurious points of order. I would ask the ,hon. member to continue his speech but to get back to the bill we are talking about which is Bill No. 4. MR. BARRY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now,the point on Bill No. 4 is that members are delaying this bill, members opposite, in setting up a new Department of the Environment because of the way they say the minister has applied the Environmental Assessment Act.

And members opposite are interpreting the Environmental Assessment Act as though there must be an independent study - whatever an 4486 "

May 15,1981 Tape No. 1608 AH-3 MR. BARRY: independent study means. It is an awful insult to people who have been trying to do a half decent job for this Province in protecting the environment to say that they are less than independent. Mr. Speaker, they are giving the impression that for every project that in any way impacts on the environment th-ere must be a panel set up, a panel of -I think there are three members required on the panel - there must be public hearings. rl!aybe ~:ere is only one. Maybe you only need one member. There must be public hearings. And, Mr. Speaker, there must be a report brough~ in.

Mr. Speaker, can you imagine the expense, the time involved~ The people of this Province would do nothing else except attend public hearings. They would do nothing else except pay taxes to pay for the public hearings if every time government turned around to do something,there had to be a formal enquiry, a formal assessment. Mr. Speaker, the whole point of the Environmental Assessment Act is that there must first be shown that there is something serious. It must first be shown that there is going to be a serious negative impact on the environment.

In other words, if there is going to be a serious problem if a project goes ahead. And the whole point of this Cat Arm project is that it has not been shown, there is nobody not even members opposite- they are getting up and calling 4487

May 15, 1981 Tape 1609 EC - l MR. BARRY: an inquiry, an assessment, and they are not pointing out if there is any problem. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: What is the problem? Would members opposite point out what is the problem? We have the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight), who is complaining in great detail about the Cat Arm project - and I will submit, Mr. Speaker, that the amount of ca~~bou in the area of Cat Arm is very, very few

whereas the number of caribou that would be affected by a Southwest Brook road, I suppose there is a hundred times as many, maybe a thousand times as many, and I have never heard the member for Windsor - Buchans raise one question about not doing a Southwest Brook road because it might affect movements of caribou. I have not heard him say once in this House that a Southwest Brook road might interfere with some caribou and therefore should not be built. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is no question that there is a moose population in the area of Cat Arm but, Mr.

Speaker, everybody, I telieve, agrees that moose do not have the same sensitivity to civilization or projects that caribou do. Moose have no - as anybody who has driven out over the Trans-Canada Highway and seen them coming in through windshields of cars - they do not have any great hesitation about crossing roads, Mr. Speaker. And the main point,as far as the moose population in this project is concerned, is to maintain adequate control over the roads once they are constructed, and the minister has laid down conditions for this. So we have, Mr.

Speaker, the same attempt to mislead and deceive the people of this Province on their

interpretation of the Environmental Assessment Act as on their way of dealing with the offshore minerals question. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Butt ) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! Order, please! 4488 ....

. May 15, 198.1 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Butt): A point of order has been raised by the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the member used the expression 'mislead and deceive', which is unparliamentary and he will have to withdraw that. MR. BARRY:. No, it is not unparliamentary. Mr. Speaker, to the point of order, it is not. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. In the context to which it was said, I would ask the bon. the rnin~ater to withdraw. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, do I get a chance to speak to the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Yes, the hon. the minister could speak to the point of order.

I did not think he was - MR. BARRY: I was rising to speak to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Put forward your argument and I will hear the argument. MR. BARRY: The point of order, Mr. Speaker, is that it is unparliamentary for us to say that a member opposite is misleading or attempting to intentionally mislead, to deliberately, intentionally mislead this House. But, Mr. Speaker, the whole basis of politics is for us to point out or for them to point out about us if there is an attempt to deceive the people of this Province in a policy.

We are not talking about deceiving this House, we are talking about misinterpreting a policy of government to deceive the people of the Province. Now,that cannot be unparliamentary or we may as well pack up and go horne. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ...... (," The way the Chair heard it, I rule that it is unparliamentary and I ask the minister to withdraw. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, of course, I withdraw. If that is your ruling I withdraw it unequivocally, but I will say that debate is going to be severely limited in this 4489

May 15, 1981 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER has a point (Butt): of order. Tape 1609 EC - 3 House from this point in time, On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The hon. the member for LaPoile MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would submit that the minister in withdrawing his statement, challenged, really insulted the Chair and I do not think we should allow that sort of thing to stand on the public record.

I do not know if Your Honour wants to direct the minister to take it back, but it is certainly not in good taste and has a tendency to lower the decorum of this House · when you make snide remarks about the Chair like the hon. gentleman just did. DR. COLLINS : MR. SPEAKER: the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: To the point of order, Mr. Speak