Manitoba Hansard — 6 May 1997 (Sitting 40, 36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-40

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session • Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 40-1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 6, 1997

Member ASIITON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La V erendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Portage Ia Prairie Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2275 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 6, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): I must inform the House ofthe unavoidable absence of Madam Speaker, and therefore, in accordance with the statutes, call upon the Deputy Speaker to take the Chair. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Acting Chairperson of the Committee of Supply): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flood Conditions Update Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to give a brief update of the flood conditions, followed by a report from the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura). I am pleased to report that the river levels have declined gradually at most points.

In the last 24-hour period the river fell between a quarter and a half a foot between Emerson and the floodway inlet. In Selkirk areas, the levels fell about a quarter of a foot. The level at Grande Pointe fell about an inch and is now three quarters of a foot below its previous crest. River levels will continue to fall during the next 10 days or so and then somewhat more rapidly, unless we get significant rainfall.

A minimal rain of 10 millimetres would not have a significant effect, but if we get 25 millimetres or more during the next 10 days, we should be aware that that could slow the decline of the levels in the river. We do believe that the levels in the city of Winnipeg will remain above 20 feet until mid-May, even with favourable weather. The 1997 crest elevation of the river in downtown Winnipeg, the Red River, has been computed to be an equivalent of 34.5 feet, the same on the crest of 1852. In 1776 and 1826, those floods would have equalled 36.5 feet.

The 1950 flood crest, for interest, would have been 30 feet, or was measured at 30 feet. *

(1335) The extreme flows we have seen in the Red River combined with flood flows on the Winnipeg River are creating unusually high levels in Lake Winnipeg. I would like to point out a matter of interest, that the latest forecast of Lake Winnipeg is that it will rise to 715 and a half feet, about a half a foot higher than last year. If we receive above-average precipitation, the lake could rise to 716. The present level of this lake is 714.9, and Manitoba Hydro has been increasing outflows from the lake at maximum possible rates for the past number of months.

A point of interest is that in 197 4 when this lake was not yet regulated, the lake rose to 718.1. Manitoba Emergency Management Organization Update Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I just wanted to update the House on some of the things that are happening with the Manitoba Emergency Management Organization. Much of the discussion right now is with

2276 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 19 97 regard to re-entry, getting back to the communities, for people to get back into their homes. A re-entry committee has been established , and they have met with local officials throughout the flood area and have put together a re-entry format and process to be followed , and that has been agr eed to by all the local authorities. Just some of the areas that re-entry takes into cons ideration, Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Along the provincial line, there is the restoration of roads, temporary crossings and bridges; the logistical transportation for materials and equipment that have to get into these communities and into these residences; the floodway rehabilitation; debris removal from all of these water channels; dike restoration which needs to be undertaken, and the salvage of materials, materials that may have been wet but are still salvageable.

Then, of course, there is the re-entry pass system controlled through municipalities so that municipalities can still have, as their first priority, the protection of life and at the same time still allowing people to go through to their property to inspect it and to make sure that everything is working properly. In the area of municipal government, road access and restoration of bridges is also a very major concern for them, because they lost a lot of roads and a lot of bridges as a result of this flood.

Then there is the rehabilitation of the public facilities that are under their purview, the rehabilitation of institutions, such as schools and hospitals and care homes , a number of which are in water as of today.

Then they also have the problem of debris removal, dike restoration, the local security that they require to en sure that the safety of their resi dents is uppermost and, of course, clean-up assistance to all the elderly and special needs residents within the community-they will need support and assistance there-an d the assess ment of the integrity of all the structures and bridge s that are in their jurisd iction. So this re-entry is moving along slowly.

As of today, Dominion City and Letellier are gaining re-entry back into their communities, but the armed forces are still well deployed here in strengths of 8,000 members plus. They have been deployed throughout the entire flood area assigned to do various tasks. We had the pleasure of meeting with the armed forces this morning, and they informed us that their tasks in the Petersfield area, the Selkirk area, the R.M. of St. And rews, R.M. of East Selkirk have more or less-they have respond ed to the call.

They were out there in full force yesterday and have told us that today that request has been filtered down so there is not that great need anymore. I would also like to take this opportunity, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to thank the joint forces, the army, the navy, the air force and all the reserves that are here in Manitoba helping with this ef fort. We have all three forces here and, as well, the reserves who have come here to volunteer to assi st in this flood fighting effort. The Manitoba Emergency Management Organization, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, is still continuing to staff the emergency operation centre on a 24-hour, seven-d ay-a week basis, or as the joint forces put it, 24-7. There is, however, a dramatic dropoff in calls so that the number of staff manning the emergency operation centre will probably be reduced later on this week. The other area is the disaster financial assistance, and as I indicated ye sterday, the of fice was opened to start business.

As of today, they are having a tremend ous number of telephone inquiries with regard to disaster assi stance, so they are now in the process of putting add itional staff into place to be able to answer all the telephone queries. This gives us an update for today. * (1 340) Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): I too wish to join with the Minister of Government Services in congratulating and thanking the Canadian forces who are working in our area. In particular, it was pointed out to me that in the St.

Norbert area the reservists and Air Command have been particularly diligent and resourceful in helping fight the flood of 19 97 and that we should pay particular attention to them. I also want to enco urage the government in its plans with its committee for re-entry into houses and communities that have been hit by the flood. I want to point out that a lot of attention has been paid to houses in the Red River Valley and Winnipeg and that, as we

May 6, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 2277 need to be vigilant in keeping our eye on what is going on in that part of the province, we also have to be fully aware that the water is still heading northward, is still affecting many people in the north of Winnipeg and the Selkirk area, and at some point now we must start to concentrate our attention on Lake Winnipeg and the communities that draw their livelihood from Lake Winnipeg and all parts of that part of our province. Not only Lake Winnipeg will be experiencing problems, as has been pointed out by the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Cummings), but rivers north of Lake Winnipeg will also see an increase in water levels. That will be without doubt. Any precautions we can take to mitigate the damages that will appear in northern Manitoba will be much appreciated by this sid e of the House and by the people of that area, but there is no doubt that that part of our province as well, the North and the people who live in northern Manitoba, will eventually feel the effects of this flood as we have here in the southern part of our province.

Along with that, I include Lake Manitoba which will also experience an increase in water levels in the very near future, and of course again that presents all kind s of problems as we have seen in the past for farmers and ranchers and people who live along Lake Manitoba. So, with that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to make sure that everybo dy is aware that the problems, although we hear reports that the water levels are decreasing slightly, we still need to be vigilant with waves and with the rainfall.

We also have to be mindful of the effects of this water as it flows through our system to Hud son Bay and the effects that it will have on the people in northern Manitoba. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Introduction of Guests Mr. Deputy Speaker: Before Oral Question Period , I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today His Excellency Dr. Kyaw Win, Ambassador of the Union of Myanmar to Canada. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. * (1 345) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Disaster Assistance Cost-Sharing Formula Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Deputy Speaker, there is a lot of concern by municipalities over the disaster assistance coverage and what they will be eligible for. In 19 92, according to the disaster financial assistance policy, the Disaster Assis tance Bo ard was proposing to the provincial government that where damages amount to more than $1 per capita on a provincial basis that the cost-sharing formula could be waived and changed.

I would like to ask the Premier: Have they looked at this recommend ation from the Disaster Assis tance Bo ard, and what is the present status in terms of the very, very major costs the municipalities will have to bear with this flood even though it is only at the 10 percent level? Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Mr. Deputy Speaker, when disaster hits, of course, it is a very traumatic experience for most of us, and it is something that we always almost feel that it is not our fault; it is somebod y else's fault and we should be looked after.

I think in regard to the provincial-municipal cost sharing and the federal-provincial cost-sharing that this is a formula that has been worked on for many years and put into place, and of course in discussions with municipalities we realize that there are concerns for municipalities in that regard. I think it is neces sary for us to have a pretty good handle on what kinds of damages we are looking at in real dollars before something like this is brought to the foreground as a point of discuss ion. Deductible Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): I would point out that this is a recommend ation to the government that was made to them in 19 92 by people that are experts on disaster assistance, and it was contained within their public document. A further concern, listening to evacuees, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I would ask the Premier this question.

2278 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 1997 Last week the Premier quoted the Quebec Saguenay disaster assistance to agree to the suggestion to go $100,000 in terms of changing the limit from $30,000 to $100,000 for victims of this flood, particularly victims who are not able to buy or purchase flood insurance here in the Red River flood plain. We have looked at further conditions of the Quebec situation in the Saguenay region last year, and it is our understanding that the 20 percent deductible was also waived and not required by victims in the Quebec Saguenay region.

This deductible remains in some provinces, but provinces like Alberta that have gone through more recent disasters with the tornado and other floods in the province of Alberta have waived this deductible. Can the Premier advise the people of Manitoba what is the status of this 20 percent deductible and its impact on the livelihood and lives of disaster victims? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): We have been investigating all of those policies as well.

In the case of Quebec, they have some criteria which they have put forward in their disaster assistance policy, but they also have done things that are pertinent only to the Saguenay disaster, given the magnitude and the unprecedented nature of it. In the case of the Saguenay disaster, the member is correct when he says that they did have a provision for waiving the deductible, but it was only in the case of a total loss of property.

That did happen in the Saguenay where there was this torrential storm that went through, the flood that actually wiped out not only the dwelling but the land on which the dwelling was located. In the case of a total loss, they did have a provision for waive-but under the normal claims in which repairs were able to be effected, then that did not apply. I want to point out, because there is certainly, I think, a tendency on the part of people to look at this in isolation and say it is a terrible circumstance and why do we have any deductible at all.

I want to make the point that across the country disaster assistance programs have taken into account the fact that this is in lieu of being able to purchase insurance, and that has always been one of the principles there. On the other hand, it was always felt that the compensation should not be more generous than that which you could get if you bought insurance. Recognize two things: One is that people who would have insurance would firstly be paying premiums, which they are not in this case; and secondly, they would likely be subject to deductibles in all cases.

So in this case it is unreasonable for them to do neither, not pay premiums and not be subject to a deductible but be given everything. The only circumstances in which they felt that was warranted in the Saguenay instance was if there was a total loss of the property, dwelling and everything under the claim. Mr. Doer: Of course, under the rules and guidelines that were circulated in April of 1997 and revised, I suppose, with the change from $30,000 to $100,000, not, quote, everything is covered. People do not, quote, get everything that is damaged or lost during the flood.

So that condition then would be similar to insurance. For people that cannot get insurance for flood is not the same, and I would suggest that some sensitivity should be made in that regard. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the people in Ste. Agathe look at the situation in Grand Forks where President Bill Clinton apparently promised 100 percent damages for the flood, for the victims of flood in that community.

The more recent changes to disaster assistance have taken place in the province of Alberta where they have waived this 20 percent deductibility because of the hardship it represented to the tornado victims and flood victims. I would like to ask the Premier: Has he looked at Ste. Agathe versus Grand Forks? Has he looked at Alberta in terms of Manitoba? I recognize that some provinces have maintained deductibles.

I agree with the Premier, but other provinces actually that have more recent disaster experience have changed that based on the sensitivity of restoring people's lives as much as possible as victims of these disasters. *

(1350) Mr. Filmon: The answer, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is that, yes, we have looked at the various different programs. We have a great variety. New Brunswick, for instance, has a maximum payment of $75,000. Saskatchewan has a maximum payment of$30,000. British Columbia has a maximum payment of$1 00,000 with a 20 percent deductible. Every province does have different circumstances.

May 6, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2279 I think it is incumbent on us to try and compare the circumstances that are faced here, to try and take a reasonable view of it but recognize as well that whatever rules we set are also going to be there for future eventualities and that this is an unprecedented civil disaster. In this case, I think it is fair to say that the lion's share of the disaster assistance costs will be picked up by the federal government.

There may be many other disasters such as a localized flash flood in a small community, such as some forest fire circumstances or a brush fire circumstance in which the lion's share will be picked up by the Province of Manitoba. So whatever rules we set are going to apply to us under those circumstances, and it may well be that we are picking up 75 percent of the costs in a future disaster. So there may be a tendency to say, well, because the feds are picking up the lion's share, we set generous limits today.

I do not believe that is the way we ought to do it, but we ought to try and look at ways in which the system provides for the greatest fairness possible and recognize that ultimately we are providing on an ex-gratia basis payments for losses that are not covered by insurance, cannot be covered by insurance, and so people pay no premiums for them. Therefore, where is the requirement for people to take some responsibility themselves for this, knowing that in many cases they are building consciously on a flood plain? Rural Stress Line Funding Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Some people in rural Manitoba are returning to their homes and others will have a very long wait, and the effects of the flood will be long-lasting. The physical losses will be easier to deal with than the emotional stresses that will continue for a long time. The Premier said on April 30: No efforts will be spared to continue to fight the flood. Our objective at this point is to provide them with comfort, relief and assurance that the government and Manitoba and indeed all citizens of the province will stand behind them and will continue to stand behind them.

We used to have a rural stress line, but the government did not recognize the value of it and eliminated the funding. Given the crisis facing rural Manitobans, will the Premier recognize the importance of this line and immediately reactivate the line so that service will be available for rural Manitobans as they face this crisis? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I realize that this provides good fodder for debating political issues about decisions of government in times of stress, but I say this, that there were many, many things that were looked at.

Firstly, there are stress lines that are available throughout the province of Manitoba for a whole host of reasons. My recollection was that the cost per call on the rural stress line, because it was a separate and distinct service compared to generally utilized services available for a variety of purposes throughout the province, was something to the effect that the generally used services were in the range of $10 a call, and the rural stress line was in the range of $200 or more a call. So we have to look at the efficacy of every decision we make.

You just cannot say, well, hang the expense, this sounds like a good idea so let us do it. You have to have some basis of deciding whether it is reasonable to provide the service. When it is 20 times the cost of other available stress line services, those are not the kinds of decisions that you make. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Speaker, does the Premier not understand that there are going to be additional calls? There is a tremendous amount of stress out there. The lines that are in place under Klinic will not be able to meet that demand.

People have been trained to deal with rural issues, and these people are not being called in. Will they immediately bring back those people who have special training to deal with rural issues and ensure that service is available for rural Manitobans as they face this crisis? Mr. Filmon: With all due respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, many of us have been working very hard and interacting with people from all levels of government, with people in stress in our communities, with leaders who are put under enormous stress by challenges that they never dreamed could be put on their doorstep.

We recognize that there is a need for people to be addressed in this time of need. *

(1355) 2280 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 1997 I will tell you that there are central lines right now through our Emergency Management Organization that have psychologists available, central answering services that if somebody is in difficulty, under that kind of stress that the member talks about, they are put right through to somebody who can help them. These are people who are part of our Emergency Management Organization, trained psychologists who are part of the team.

When I went to see the team, they include engineers, so that if people are concerned about technical details of what might happen under these circumstances, changing flows, changing levels, what is the effect of the floodway on this, they have engineers there available to them that immediately take those calls. They have people there with logistics training; they have people there from the Highways area; they have people there from every area of Government Services, and they have trained psychologists.

So believe me, we are concerned about it, so concerned that we have put specialized people in place to answer their needs when they have those needs, and I believe that is a far more effective service than setting up a service at 20 times the normal cost to provide for something that did not get a lot of calls, quite honestly. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Swan River, with her final supplementary question. Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. want to assure the Premier that I do not want to discredit anybody. I know that people are working very hard to help- Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Could I ask the honourable member to put her question now. There is not the opportunity to put the

preamble. The honourable member for Swan River, with her question. Ms. Wowchuk: As I put my question, I want to give the Premier credit for getting all those people in place. Does the Premier not recognize that these are very serious situations? There is a lot of emotional stress. What we are asking for is that the supports be there in a preventative way to ensure that the government does not have higher costs to pay when people end up with emotional breakdowns and end up in hospital. Mr. Deputy Speaker, $80,000 is minimal in the whole scheme of things, when we have to ensure that people in rural Manitoba have the services that they need, that they do not end up with emotional breakdowns. *

(1400) Mr. Filmon: With all due respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the member is mixing apples and oranges. She is attempting to essentially bootleg an issue that she was arguing about for the last year and a half in this House, an issue for which there was more than ample justification, and trying to change it here into an issue of whether or not people who are in stress today are getting the kind of support they need to prevent the eventuality she is talking about. I told her that through EMO we have psychologists and trained personnel available to deal with people who are in stress.

I am telling her as well that Klinic has added people, available through a flood stress line. So the resources are there for the emergency that we are encountering now with the flood and also under other circumstances as has been adequately talked about in this House over the past year and a half. It is not I who does not understand the circumstance; it is the member for Swan River. Disaster Assistance Cost-Sharing Formula Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Mr. Deputy Speaker, on March 6, 1989, the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board wrote a new policy which it sent to all municipalities.

I just quote from that policy: The board proposes that where damages amount to more than $1 per provincial capita, that the provincial-municipal cost-shar ing formula no longer apply. Further in that same document, the Province of Manitoba under

Section 4(4X1): The Province of Manitoba/minister may waive all or any portion of the municipal business and/or individual financial share of disaster costs. In the new manual presented to us last week, under

Section 4(2X1) this exemption has disappeared, this ability to waive has disappeared. This is putting an incredible burden on municipalities such as Ritchot, Macdonald and others. Will the Premier reinstate the

May 6, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2281 former provision which allowed for waiving of the municipal share over the individual thresholds that were in place in 1992? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the member opposite is in a position, of course, which is that he can be a critic on all things at all times and that he can take all sides of the issue. The circumstances of this are that it is an unprecedented civil disaster, an unprecedented civil disaster for which everybody is going to be bearing some share of difficulty and ultimately share of cost.

I know that the federal government will be paying out substantial amounts of money that they did not plan for and that they are going to have large responsibilities for. I also know that our provincial government is going to be paying out a lot of money. In fact, he and other critics have tried to make the point that we are going to have these huge draws on our Treasury and that under our balanced budget legislation we are not in a position to be able to adjust for them.

Now he is asking us to take the responsibility for more because he says it is unfair that municipal governments should have to pay a share of these costs. Individuals will also bear a share of the responsibility. Mr. Deputy Speaker, he cannot have it all ways. He cannot tell us that we do not have enough flexibility to bear our share of the costs and then tell us to bear somebody else's share ofthe costs as well because he thinks that is good politics. Mr. Sale: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, will the Premier, who knows that the balanced budget legislation provides for exceptional situations such as disasters of the kind that we have experienced, simply restore the formula that was in place in 1992 which allows municipalities to not have to pay more than the share of the first $6 million on the various sliding scales that are provided for in the 1992 formula? Will the Premier not recognize that in some R.M.s' cases their 10 percent share will exceed more than twice their annual tax revenue?

Will he not recognize that sharing the burden is a principle on which Canada and this province have always been acting? That is what a million people do; they share the burden. Will he share this burden? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I find it absolutely astounding that the member does not understand that what I proceeded to tell him at some length in answer to the first question was that we are sharing the burden, that we will be spending, I do not know, $15 million, $20 million, even more as our share of that burden.

It will be a very significant share of that burden, and that is the way the program is set up, that there are many partners in the sharing of the burden, including of course the federal government, the Province of Manitoba, municipal governments, individuals and businesses throughout the province. That is exactly what is going to happen. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Crescentwood, with his final supplementary question. Mr. Sale: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, will the Premier not recognize that even if we paid $50 million from the province to our share of this, that would be 1 percent, slightly less than 1 percent of our annual revenue? He is asking municipalities to pay something over a hundred percent of their annual revenue for their share. Does he not see the unfairness in this? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am not going to make ad hoc policy here based on a critic's desire to get some publicity. What I am going to do is, as I have always done- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was wondering how long it would take us to get into this, and of course in this case once again the Premier is leading the way and violating Beauchesne 484 which is very clear about not imputing motives. It is very obvious, I believe, if you look, the member for Crescentwood is simply asking the Premier a question related to policy.

I would appreciate if you would ask the Premier to withdraw his remarks and to answer the question without the kind of political statements that we are getting from the Premier on this very, very important issue. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Premier, on the same point of order. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Deputy Speaker, asking about fairness is not a policy question. That is making

2282 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 1997 judgments, and the member was way off base. I do not think I in any way impugned motives to him. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable members for the information on the point of order. I am going to take it under advisement to just clarify exactly what was said, and I will get back to the House with the information. *** Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to complete his remarks. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the point that I make is that, as a responsible government, we always evaluate the circumstances that face us.

We do not even have quantifiable estimates of what is being faced in some ofthese municipal jurisdictions let alone actual bills being submitted for payment at this point, so for us to make policy from the seat of the pants would be absolutely irresponsible. It may be something that is in the interests of the member for Crescentwood as part of his normal policy development, but it is not in anybody else's interest in o�r society. *

(1410) Flooding Impact on Northern Manitoba Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Deputy Speaker, these past several weeks in northern Manitoba the support for the people affected by the floods has been unprecedented. There are fundraising efforts going on, and I thought probably the most touching comment I heard when I was in Nelson House, a community that was affected by permaflooding more than 25 years ago, when, indeed, a member of that community said that we are all Manitobans and we all have to chip in.

I want to ask, and appreciating the fact that the No. 1 priority has to be to fight the flood in southern Manitoba, if either the Minister responsible for Hydro or Natural Resources can give an update on the impact that the increased levels will have on a number of communities. I know in Split Lake, they have already been told that one of their roads, the main road in the community will probably be flooded. I believe Highway 373 is in the same situation in a couple of spots potentially, and certainly parts of Cross Lake may be cut off from each other.

I would like to ask whichever minister can perhaps give the best update on that what the current circumstances will be on the downstream impact of the increased water levels. Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administ ration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I can respond specifically with respect to Split Lake. I do have information on that at this time. My understanding from Hydro is that we are anticipating high flows into Split Lake and expect the level to rise from the present 549.5 to 553.25. It is anticipated it will flood a small corner of the reserve land near the graveyard.

This has happened before, and compensation can be claimed under a fixed formula under an existing agreement with respect to that matter outside the Northern Flood Agreement. Mr. Ashton: A supplementary: Perhaps I will focus this on the Minister of Highways, and I would indicate I know Cross Lake is potentially affected as well. I would like to ask the Minister of Highways what role his department will be playing in ensuring that 373 is not cut off in terms of accessibility. The communities of Cross Lake and Norway House rely on that as their connection to the outside world.

I would also like to ask if the Department of Highways will be working with the communities that will be affected on road access, because my understanding is, internally within communities, you may see parts of the communities cut off, for example, from the nursing station, from stores and other vital services. Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I can assure the member that Highways will work with the communities to maintain access to the outside world.

There are ways and means in which that can be done, whether it is pilot vehicles or whether it is using just one lane, whether it is building up the road over a short stretch to keep it above the water. All those ways and means will be assessed in conjunction and communication with the communities. That I can assure the member. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with his final supplementary question.

May 6, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2283 Mr. Ashton: As a final supplementary, I will return perhaps to the Minister responsible for Hydro since the communities that are most affected are the Northern Flood communities because of the increased levels already from the control structures.

I would like to ask whether the minister, either in his capacity as Minister responsible for Hydro or in his capacity as Minister responsible for Northern and Native Affairs, will ensure that every action is taken, similar to what Highways will be doing on the highway structures, to keep the communities open and to make sure that the roads are not cut off for any great length of time, because I know in Split Lake there is a concern that if it goes up any more, part of the community will be cut off from the other part of the community. People will not have access to vital services. Hon.

David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Thank you very much for bringing that to the attention of the House. That definitely is something that will be monitored and communication is the key. You have given good notice, and I will take this into consideration and bring it to the attention of Manitoba Hydro. Disaster Assistance Deductible-No-Interest Loans Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Deputy Speaker, my question is either for the Premier or the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson).

An individual who has a $20,000 claim is looking at approximately a $4,000 deductible, and for someone that might be on somewhat of a limited income, acquiring those sorts of dollars is going to prove quite difficult. Given the circumstances surrounding the flood, has the government given any consideration in providing things such as no-interest loans so that people could actually acquire the dollars necessary in order to meet the potential for deductibles? Is the government looking at that issue at all? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): I want to repeat the point that I made earlier with respect to the questions of the Leader of the Opposition. That is that under this disaster assistance program individuals are being treated in a manner that reflects the fact that: (

a) they pay no premiums, which they would have to if they had insurance coverage, and (

b) that they would still have deductibles in all likelihood, and so they have deductibles here. The disaster assistance program, as I understand it, and I can be corrected by the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura), is so flexible that in some of the circumstances people's own efforts in restoration can qualify for payments. So, in other words, part of that deductible they can virtually save by virtue of doing some of their own work, so those are flexible circumstances.

I think that the program is very, very flexible, whereby they essentially are paid for doing their own work, and that can reflect the cost of the deductible to some degree. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, with a supplementary question. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Speaker, what I am asking the Premier is to take into consideration one's ability to be able to pay, for example, the senior that might be on a fixed income that might not be able to put in sweat equity or any form of that nature, being able to acquire the dollars necessary in order to get the work done.

Is the government prepared to offer or provide no interest loans as a last measure? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Deputy Speaker, that has not been a part of the program in the past. Certainly, I will take his suggestion under advisement. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, with his final supplementary question. Flooding Monitoring of Donations Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the final supplement ary question would go to the Minister of Government Services (Mr.

Pitura), with respect to the numerous organizations throughout Canada, in essence, that have been donating to the victims of the floods. My question to the government is: Is there somewhere within the department in which there is a

2284 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 1997 monitoring or looking at where the money is ultimately coming from? Does the government play any role with respect to that? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I am sorry-1 have so many things that are going through my mind with respect to briefings-! should have added for the benefit of the member opposite that, in discussions yesterday, I believe that the Red Cross and some of the agencies that are collecting money indicated they would be willing to look at hardship circumstances such as the member raised in his first two questions as a source for utilization of that money. There are funds that are being raised and put into various holdings for the potential benefit of people in hardship circumstances.

I may have indicated this earlier in the course of discussion, but there are three of them that are involved with the relief side of things: the Red Cross; the Salvation Army who are looking after supplies of various natures, blankets, food, clothing and so on; and the Mennonite Central Committee whose major role is going to be in helping with restoration. There was also the Red Cross who are involved with raising money, as well as other organizations that are the recipients of money, the banks are doing that, and so on.

It will be our endeavour to try and develop a co ordinating umbrella that will see the choices and decisions made as to where the priorities are so that we could look at a whole range of issues, including those that have been raised by the member opposite. Social Service Providers Funding Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Yesterday the Minister of Family Services said that some of the increased budget in her department under Community Living will be used to support more children and more families, and this is good.

What I would like to ask the minister is: What is she going to do for the 68 agencies to help them to pay their existing staff and to see that they get decent wages, the people who are already there who need to be paid an adequate wage? What is she going to do with this new increased budget to help those agencies? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question, and I will repeat what I said yesterday because I believe, as there is increased demand for supports for children, families and those within our residential care facilities that need support, that if we can provide additional support to those individuals, that is good use of our dollars.

I know there are circumstances and there have been occasions when workers have come forward and asked for higher salaries, and I guess I have indicated that our key priority is to try to ensure that the most people are served that we can possibly serve with the additional resources. Mr. Martindale: Can the Minister of Family Services tell these agencies what they are going to do in order to meet the requirements of the Employment Standards branch since the Department of Labour has ordered compliance with their regulations?

Will the minister provide the money in order to meet the compliance orders which were issued in April and retroactive, I understand, to April 1? What are they going to do to meet the requirements of The Employment Standards Act? Mrs. Mitchelson: As a result of that information coming forward some time ago we have been working with the Department of Labour to see what the final result might be, and we are still in that process. That will be continuing and ongoing until we find a resolution. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Burrows, with his final supplementary question. *

(1420) Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services if she is going to force these agencies to choose between obeying the law that the Department of Labour is going to enforce, namely the compliance orders with their regulations, or whether she wants them to shut down due to lack of resources and have their clients put into institutions at much more expensive daily rates. What are these agencies going to do? Why is she not going to allocate some of this new money so they can meet the compliance orders? Mrs. Mitchelson: Again, I will repeat to my honourable friend that we have been working with the

May 6, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2285 Department of Labour and trying to find some solutions or some answers to the problems that have been raised by my honourable friend. It is not a new issue for us, and we are working to try to address it. Man Globe Severance Packages Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): My question is to the Deputy Premier. This government has a double standard when dealing with ManGlobe employees. Former ManGlobe staff received only partial settlements and had to wait two years to get action while management employees are treated in a special way.

For example, project manager Karen Alcock waited only 52 days for a full settlement of$53,000 in severance and was immediately hired as a consultant to Bruce MacCormack, president of MTS Advanced and a board member of ManGlobe. Can the Deputy Premier tell this House why there is one standard for management and another for the employees of ManGlobe? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): I would recommend that the member has an issue with ManGlobe, he should raise it with the management of ManGlobe. Point of Order Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, the member should be aware that, according to the ManGlobe project papers, it is very clear that the province requires a senior management team acceptable to Manitoba to be in place prior to ManGlobe receiving the second installment of funds for the project. This minister and this government are in charge of that project. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, with all due respect, the honourable member for Elmwood is simply debating the issue and not raising anything by way of a point of order that should be cause for any ruling on your part other than to tell the honourable member that he does not have a point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on the same point of order.

Indeed, if questions are beyond the administrative competence of the government, that indeed is a reason for the government not to have to answer those questions. That is indeed outlined in Beauchesne. But the member was rising on a point of order to indicate clearly that the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) is wrong, obviously does not know that he does have administrative competence.

If he chooses not to answer the question, he does have that right, but he should not use the excuse of lack of administrative competence because, indeed, he should have administrative competence, given the direct responsibility for ManGlobe. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Elmwood did not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Elmwood, with his supplementary question. Salaries Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My supplementary to the same minister is this. After Mrs.

Alcock's departure from ManGlobe, she immediately was hired as a consultant to Bruce MacCormack ofMTS Advanced while he was still on the ManGlobe board and MTS was still a ManGlobe partner. I would like to ask the minister: Why was she fired in the first place, then rehired, and is her salary still the $7,500 per month plus GST? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am quite prepared to answer on behalf of the province as it relates to the funds that were provided to ManGlobe as a research and development project.

There was, in fact, a management team in place, a proper board of directors in place, that were acceptable to the province before any advances were made to the company.

2286 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 1997 As it relates to the hiring, to the dismissal, to the activities of individuals that are hired by ManGlobe, I would suggest, whether it is dealing with Ms. Alcock or whomever it is dealing with, I would recommend the member ask the question to the management of ManGlobe. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Elmwood, with his final supplementary question. Internet Video Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

My final supplementary is this: Could the minister tell us what happened to the $20,000 that was budgeted in the ManGlobe project papers to produce an Internet video, and can he tell us how much the video really cost, who produced it and what use was made of the final finished product? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, on detail like that I will take the question as notice, but, again, the province, before advancing any money to this research and development project under the ManGlobe corporation, made sure that the proper board of directors was in place, that there was participation by private-sector companies that were participating as well. Mr. Deputy Speaker, as it relates to specifics within that project, I will take it as notice, but all the information to date that the member has brought to this House has basically been inaccurate. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Time for Oral Question Period has expired.

NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Lyme Disease Mrs. Shirley Render (St. Vital): Mr. Deputy Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Deputy Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Vital have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mrs. Render: On March 20 in the course of a nonpolitical statement the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) drew the attention of the House to the fact that a certified case of Lyme disease had been confirmed in a tick found outside of Winnipeg.

At that time, he suggested that information about Lyme disease be included in a future issue of Manitoba Hydro's monthly Hydro Lines newsletter. I am pleased to say that the May Hydro Lines newsletter, which will be mailed out with the Hydro bills, will contain an

article about Lyme disease together with tips for people if they are going into tick infested land. Through this article, many Manitobans will have useful, timely information about Lyme disease at their fingertips, just as the vacation and tourist season is approaching in our province. The Hydro Lines is a low-cost and effective way of sending vital information to Manitobans and increasing their awareness of a preventable illness. (Mr.

Gerry McAlpine, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) At a time when all Manitobans are working very hard against the effects of our devastating flood, I would like to thank the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) for his suggestion and also thank the public affairs department and other staff of Manitoba Hydro for inserting information in their newsletter. Thank you. Flooding-Fundraising Efforts Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Do I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): Does the honourable member for The Pas have leave for a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Acting Speaker, this afternoon I am very proud to rise in the Chamber to acknowledge the generosity and the kindness and the caring that people from northern Manitoba have shown for their brothers and sisters in southern Manitoba who are being ravaged by the flood waters this spring. In The Pas last week, the leaders of that community got together with their people, OCN, the Town of The Pas, and the rural municipality of Consol and launched a fundraising drive through the help of a local radio station, CJ-1240.

May 6, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2287 Mr. Acting Speaker, I am very pleased to report to the Chamber, to members of this Legislature, that at I :30 this afternoon our mayor, Gary Hopper, our chief, Francis Flett and the reeve of the rural municipality of Consol were at the St. Vital centre presenting a cheque of $51,0 00 to the Red Cross people who are in charge of channelling the money that is raised from fundraising activities such as the one that was held in The Pas. I would like to acknowledge the work of those people, the kindness and generosity that they have shown to people from down south.

The people from the North, of course, are no strangers to natural disasters, and they know what it feels like to be airlifted from a community into an arena in a strange place. They know the mental strain that people go through when they are being evacuated from their homes and familiar surround ings. *

(1430) So, once again, I am very proud to do this here this afternoon, and I am proud that I am from OCN and the community of The Pas, and I am proud of what our people have done today, Mr. Acting Speaker. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Acting Speaker, I would like to inform the Hous e that the meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Res ources originally set for Thursd ay, May 8, at 10 a.m. to consid er the Annual Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission will be resched uled to Thursday, May 22, at 10 a.m. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I am seeking leave of the House to make some changes to the sequence for consid eration of Estimates set out in Se ssional Paper 21 tabled on March 27, 1997, and subsequently amended : first, that the Estimates for Community Support Programs, the Estimates for Allowance for Losses and Expend itures Incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Provincial Entities , the Estimates for Internal Reform, Workforce Adjustments and General Salary Increases , and the Estimates for Urban Economic Development Initiatives, sched uled for consi deration in Room 255, be moved to the Chamber for consi deration prior to the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship this afternoon.

Mr. Acting Speaker, were you following your list there because there are a number of those appropriations and some of them have long names? Second ly, Mr. Acting Speaker, the Estimates of the Department of lndustry, Trade and Tourism sched uled for consid eration in Room 255 are to be moved , with the leave of the Hous e, to be cons idered immed iately after the completion of the Estimates of the Department of Cons umer and Corporate Affairs. So following Cons umer and Corporate Affairs would be Ind ustry, Trade and Tourism in the committee, and that is the leave I am seeking this afternoon. *

(1440) The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): Is there leave of the Hous e that the Estimates for the Community Support Programs, for Allowance for Lo sse s and Expend itures Incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Provincial Entities, for Urban Economic Development Initiatives, and for Internal Ref orm, Workforce Adjustments and General Salary Increases, scheduled for consi deration in Room 255, be moved to the Chamber for consid eration prior to the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.

Is there leave of the Hous e? [agreed] And second, that the Estimates of the Department of Indus try, Trade and Tourism scheduled for consi deration in Room 255 be moved to be cons idered imme diately after completion of the Estimates of the Department of Cons umer and Corporate Affairs. Is there leave of the Hous e? [agreed ] Mr. McCrae: Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), that Mr. Acting Speaker do now leave the Chair and the Hous e resolve itself into a committee to cons ider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majes ty. Motion agreed to.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Peter Dyck): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to

2288 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 1997 order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. When the committee last sat it had been considering item 5 .1. Administration and Finance (

d) Research and Planning ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 24 of the Estimates book. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Where we left off last night, the minister had the advantage of running out the clock, and I did not have a chance to respond. We were discussing at the time the question of the requirement for sticker prices to be left on new vehicles when they are sold and the advisability of having such a requirement such as is the case in Ontario. The minister had been explaining that it was quite a pleasurable experience to shop for a new car and barter with the dealers.

I wanted to assure him that all of the studies that have been done, at least the ones that I have been aware of, are almost unanimous in their conclusion that buying a new car is a very, very stressful period for anybody who has ever done it. They do not do it very often in their lives, and they find this method of buying a car quite bizarre actually, having to barter for it, because they are not-if you have ever been to Morocco, you know that you do barter for everything that you buy.

I guess if you are brought up in a society where you do barter for each and every thing, then bartering for a car probably would fit in quite nicely. But, when you are in an orderly society like ours where people normally pay the asking price for a product on the shelves, from food to any other kind of consumer item-these people are used to doing that-to all of a sudden have a different set of rules for one of the most expensive expenditures that a person is going to make, makes it very stressful to most people and very confusing for them.

I wanted to challenge the minister on that point because I am certain that he would agree with me over time that he will find very few people that find that a pleasurable experience. Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to be argumentative with my honourable colleague, but he was talking about bartering. To me, my understanding of the word "barter" is to exchange goods and services on a nonmonetary basis, and I believe that really what he was referring to was bargaining.

If he is alleging that bargaining is a stressful activity, I can accede to that comment, that, yes, I indeed presume it would be. There is a whole myriad of issues I think that in our society are subject to bargaining, such as buying and selling a house, and while these are things that we seldom do on a regular basis unless one is a realty agent, I do not know that it would be conducive to order and good government if we as government in charge of provincial affairs were to regulate how someone fixes the value of a house or to have a centrally regulated pricing.

I believe there was a Liberal regime once in dim distant history that did get into price fixing, and I think we can only look to the regimes of eastern Europe and the Soviet Union which were centralized economies and did deal on a totally regulated environment, a regulated economy, to show that in fact these run counter to our fundamental human nature.

While I do agree with my honourable colleague that there may be stress involved, I would suggest that for the majority of the community the stress is a healthy stress and that stress is not in all walks of life to be something that is pejorative or a negative influence in our lives and in fact it brings out the competitive edge in many, many people.

I know that if I were to go to my honourable colleague and ask to buy his home, he would I am sure probably assess, do a comparative study in the neighbourhood as to what homes comparable to his were selling for and inform himself, educate himself as to what he would need in order to replace this sort of property. He would educate himself as to other areas of the city and what comparable prices were and then build in the cost of commission, cost of legal services, so he would arrive at a net figure, what we would call a last ditch figure.

Then I am sure that my honourable colleague would probably, very likely add on a significant amount, $10,000, $15,000 as his bargaining room. That would form the first part of his asking price. Then he would see-saw back and forth and if he found a willing buyer who was willing to buy from him at a price in excess of what his drop-dead price was, he would go away a happier person and think, well, my

May 6, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2289 efforts were well rewarded and that this was a very pleasurable exercise. I would suggest as well that when one is shopping for an automobile, as an informed, educated consumer, one almost has a duty really to ascertain what the real value is, and this applies to every aspect of commercial consumption.

If we are going to the grocery store, I often look at the prices of articles on the shelves and do my mathematics and divide the price by the units that are being displayed to ascertain whether the blue box, the no-name brand, is a real bargain in comparison, say, to Kellogg's Corn Flakes or to any other name brand that one is purchasing. Sometimes, much to my surprise, the no-name brand is no cheaper than the name brand, and other times it is significantly cheaper. That, I think, is part of being a well-informed responsible consumer.

I think that each one of us has an obligation, if we are to spend our resources wisely, to do this sort of exercise. *

(1450) So extrapolating further from the micro to the macro, I would suggest that with car sales-and it has been a year or two, I think, about three years since I purchased a car; nonetheless, almost time for a new one, I guess-before I were to do something like this, I would do my reading, my consumer guide reading as to which were the best brands or makes of cars these days, research the Ralph Nader-type of publications to see if there are any visible defects, find the safest vehicle that was out, and then I would go through the neighbourhood or the community of Winnipeg and perhaps even travel to Steinbach and ascertain where I could get the cheapest price.

Then you are also looking-[interjection] Well, that is right-as well, I would suggest, at support and servicing as a key component when you are making a major acquisition these days. So that would also weigh heavily on any decision I would make. So whether there was a manufacturer's suggested retail price on the window screen or not, really, Mr.

Chair-yes, there is stress because you are combatting your wits against the wits of the fellow in the booth or the sales manager down the hall, and I am not so naive as to know that it is not a game of mathematics and it is a drama that these people do like to play out, but they, too, have fixed overhead. They have bread to put on the table in their own families and their own homes. They have to have a profit margin.

I know they are not there just for the short haul, that they do want to give good service to their consuming public because they want repeat business, and this is very important, I think, for any responsible merchant. I would suggest with the greatest of respect to my honourable colleague that it would be just a very facile solution to say, oh, thou shalt not remove the retail price sticker.

I think that there is far more involved with major acquisitions of consumer products than just looking at a sticker because, quite honestly, the manufacturer may not even know what is relevant for pricing in our particular local area, and something that perhaps might be very reasonable on the streets of Detroit or the streets of Chicago or the streets of Toronto bears no resemblance to the cost ofliving and the pricing index in the city of Winnipeg or in the town of Altona.

So I think that there are many more components to this issue than just the one issue that my honourable colleague raises, albeit I think that it is a very interesting point that he does bring up today. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I accept the minister's point about changing barter to bargain, but I do think that the requirement for the sticker to be left on the new car until the car is sold is a requirement in Ontario and I think other jurisdictions, other provinces, and has been a requirement for many years.

I think it is fair to say that it is likely that a Tory government was in power when this rule was brought in, and my guess is that it was brought in for a reason. I am sure that the sticker prices that are put on the cars are put there for a reason, and the fact that a jurisdiction such as Ontario would legislate that it must remain, and there are several elements to this legislation, but would actually go to the point of legislating that the sticker must remain on the vehicle probably had some good reasoning behind it at the time.

So I guess if the experience had been when we went chasing around with our TV cameras and so on some years ago into these car dealers' lots to check this out, if we had been pleasantly surprised and found that these stickers had been removed and the resulting

2290 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 19 97 replacement sticker was, in fact, less, I think we would be quite happy about that. We would be sitting here today saying, those terrible car manufacturers, they are putting those stickers on the window and the government requires you to keep them on there, and here is this little car dealership in Winnipeg that does not like these stickers. They are taking them off because they want to put lower stickers on. But that is not what was happening.

In all cases, these stickers were being removed, and the new sticker that was being put on the vehicle was a couple thousand dollars higher. I suppose psychologically the reason for that is so that the person would get adjusted to the higher figure and that when the person came down in price, that once they got nearer to the sticker price, they would feel they had saved a couple of thousand dollars and they would sign, right? You have to understand that there is no level playing field here, you know.

The Tories, the neo-Cons, like to talk about the level playing field and getting rid of rules and all this other stuff. The point is this is not a level playing field. You have professional car salesmen who, that is all they do all day, is sell cars. That is how they make their living, and you expect that somehow average guy consumer, or woman consumer, is somehow going to go and buy a copy of Phil Edmondston's Lemon-Aid and is going to read up on it and now is somehow going to put on the boxing gloves and be on an equal playing field with the professional? That just cannot be expected.

The department has emphasized consumer education since the act was proclaimed in 19 69 or '70 or whenever it was. Well, if education was the answer and if education was getting results, then why are we having these same problems keep coming up, recurring over time, all sorts of consumer type problems. The marketplace is out there and the education is not necessarily solving the problem. Clearly, there has got to be some sort of a legislative framework put in place. So we hav.f survived all these years, I guess, without the sticker rule. Ontario has had the sticker rule, and the member for Emerson (Mr.

Penner) pointed out yesterday that in a dealership he is associated with, they leave the stickers on the window, so even in Manitoba it is not universal. It is just that our experience was in Winnipeg, that it seemed to be somewhat universal. It was an issue with the Motor Dealers Association, in fact. We thought we were making good progress on this issue during the minority government period, and then the car dealers rolled into town. The Motor Dealers Association and my old friend Lefty Hendrickson rolled into the building here, sat the Liberal caucus down and straightened them out on the issue, just like that.

Of course, they were just new, and they did not know any better, and they were easily led. The Conservative caucus was a little more stable, but it succumbed pretty quickly, too, because the car dealers simply told the Tory caucus, now this is the way it is going to be. We are not going to have this, we are not going to have that, because there is the backing that you have to worry about come election time. So we know how the system worked. We know how it currently works.

We know how it has always worked with these guys, and it just seems to me that the government should be taking the side of the overall protection here of the public. It might surprise the minister that I even get letters from people who are quite well off. I know of one well-known insurance broker in town whom I have never spoken to in my life except that I got a letter on an issue like this back five, six years ago who was really perturbed that he was purchasing a vehicle, and things did not work out exactly the way he thought they should.

I mean, the point is no matter how schooled you are, not everybody has the wherewithal to go out and buy the lemon law book and read it over and pick a vehicle and then go down and work one dealership against the other to get the best price, because it is a maze. It is too confusing. They confuse you with different options and different this and different other things.

There are just so many different areas and warranties and all sorts of things, and their advertising practices are in some cases somewhat questionable because they sell on the basis of gorillas and balloons and stuff like that as opposed to just solid facts. So I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I do accept the minister's comments that the public does have a responsibility to check things out and to do compari sons and so on, but the minister also has to

May 6, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 229 1 understand that people get worn down in buying situations much as we are doing through this process perhaps, but they get worn down over time and they finally just give up, and the car dealers, the salesmen, they understand that.

They know that you have only got so much time in a day, and when you have a spouse and the kids and the dog and whatnot and you allocate so much time to go out and purchase that car, that mathematically if all the dealers kind of stick together, it is only a matter of time until you are just going to stop, give up and just buy the damn thing and walk away. * (1 500) I am just saying that the consumers are not getting the protection they should from this government, in fact, from most governments. They are not getting the protection that they need and they deserve. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I want to deal with the issue of renovators, and that has been a subject that has produced all sorts of stories over the years and a lot of problems. I recall there was a renovation organization that formed itself a couple ofyears ago, and once again, dealing with impressionable caucuses around here, they met with the Liberal caucus at that time.

I realize the Liberals are not here to defend themselves, but they had the president of this organization-and I think you are probably aware who I am speaking of-the president came to the government and wanted some sort of recognition from the government and some training for renovators and a requirement that they had to belong to the renovation association. This guy was going to become the president and I guess be paid out of government funds for doing all of this stuff. In any event, within a short period of time, the Liberal caucus issued a press release saying this was a terrific idea.

That was the caucus of six, I guess, at that time. Peter Warren had the guy on the radio just a few days later and he caught him. Some caller phoned in and this guy had not paid his bills for God knows how long, and he had been getting sued by a number of people, and that was the end ofthat issue. Now, recently, another person, individual, has surfaced, and he has been on 'OB in the last week or two flogging another renovation organization, demanding self-regulation and the requirement that the renovators take courses and so on.

He went so far as to suggest that he was getting a pretty open ear from the department here. One of you people, anyway, has been talking to him, in his view, and he said Manitoba was quite receptive to his overtures. So I would like the minister just to kind of take some time and tell us about just what is happening or not happening with this fellow in this whole area. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, as my honourable colleague was outlining this problem, I was reminded of a period of time when I served as the president of the Crescentwood Homeowners' Association.

Crescentwood is an area of the city of Winnipeg in which I currently live and has a number of large, old homes which continually require renovations, so the residents in this area are, you might say, somewhat vulnerable from time to time to the depredations of unscrupulous renovators. We researched this issue as a citizens' coalition committee and came up with the suggestion that we would maintain a registry that diff erent citizens, residents in the area could phone in if they had a good experience with a renovator.

Then if we were solicited by another resident, we would be able to say, well, a number of the residents in our area have recommended the following people. You may want to phone Mr. A or Mrs. B or Miss C and get further particulars on them. We found this to be a very satisfactory way of dealing with this problem.

To go beyond that, however, as government and to impose a regulation on something where practically every fellow or even every woman who has a hammer and saw and the skill and the motivation to stand up and say I can do carpentry work in your basement or plumbing-and, in fact, I have a facility for plumbing, although it is not something that I enjoy particularly, but owning one of these homes, I am compelled from time to time to have to solder pipes and fix joints and things like this.

Nonetheless, beyond this sort of issue, I think that our government would be very reticent to regulate who could and could not be a certified carpenter or a certified renovator short of-we can offer the training at

2292 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 19 97 Red River and make available opportunities for people to enhance their skills, but to keep people out of the industry, I think, would be an invasive activity. I would suggest that from a regulatory point of view, it would be a virtual nightmare.

We would almost have to have a policeman for every citizen in order to enforce this sort of regulation, albeit I understand my honourable colleague's intentions that are nothing but honourable and well-meaning, and in a perfect world we would want to see that nobody suffered at the hands of somebody who was fraudulent or failing to come through with what their commitments were, but I think that, again, one must rely on the good sense of the average citizen.

I can recall and recast back to the days when I was going from house to house soliciting support for particular endeavours in which I have indulged, and be the house large or small and be the person educated or not educated, I was struck by the innate, inherent common sense of the individual behind that door. They knew when they were being deceived and they knew when they were being fed the truth, so I would suggest to my honourable colleague that I think we have to have a certain essential reliance on the good sense and the common wisdom of the ordinary person. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Chairman, I guess the observation that I had on this particular renovation organization was that it was just another example of many, many organizations which essentially demand standards and so on to build sort of walls around themselves to keep others out. I mean, that is the idea. It is similar to the Law Society and medical society and so on. So, on the one hand, you need some standards, but on the other side, you have to recognize too that the public are forced to deal with professionalism at almost every step of the way.

So, ifthese renovators had their way you would have to hire from an approved list of plumbers who had taken all these courses, an approved list of roofers, an approved list of-and they had to be a member of this organization before they could even do work in the city. We have just seen over the years the travel agents and their desire to become "professionals." The flip side of the argument is that the reason the organizations want to do that is to keep other people out.

The insurance people want to keep the banks out of their business so they put all these rules in place here to put obstacles in front of the banks, you see, but they sell it on the basis that, well, we have got to be concerned about the public here and protect the public and make sure that they have a certain amount of professionalism.

I can see that particular move by this group of renovators for what it is in that sense, but they do have a point about having some sort of responsibili ty to make certain that people do not end up in a situation like they did, as I mentioned yesterday, with the sunroom operators and other situations.

Perhaps one of the solutions that the department, I would guess, is probably looking at because the department has always been keen on bonding people and the bonding has worked quite well-the solution probably is to register these renovators and require some sort of bonding for them, and let the insurance companies worry about checking them out and taking the responsibili ty for issuing them the bonds. That may be the solution to the problem or a partial solution.

So I would ask the minister whether he is looking at bonding, because he uses bonding right now in a very wide sort of area or fairly wide area. *( 1510 ) Mr. Radcliffe: My honourable colleague I think makes some historical allusions. In fact after the Industrial Revolution and in fact even prior to the Industrial Revolution when European society was coalescing into the city states and local towns, there were a number of guilds that sprang up. Guilds were associations of! ike-minded and like-skilled people who formed craft guilds.

One of their primary motives, or directions I guess, was mutual support of one another; education of apprentices, but also a very real and concerted effort to exclude any other individual who was not of their own little cadre or power structure. Consequently, if we were to perpetuate-so I am saying that in the guild environment it was not all bad. On the other hand, in a free and open democratic society and a populist-based society which we enjoy today, it tends to concentrate economic power in the hands of a few.

Then you have an oligarchy that springs up, and it only succeeds, I would suggest, from an economic perspective of driving up the price of the service that is being supplied.

May 6, 19 97 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2293 We can look at perhaps the Law Society and the medical societies today here in our own communities and see that, while they do insist on appropriate education and standards and codes of behaviour for their diff erent practitioners, there is often a suspicion on the part of the populous as to price fixing.

So, to perpetuate or extend that sort of model down to the level-and perhaps that is deprecating-over to the level of the carpenters and the plumbers and the renovators would, I would suggest, visit a restrictiveness on society which is uncalled for at this point in time. I can only reflect upon my experience when I was a practising solicitor, and I acted for a number of farmers in our community.

Here were a number of individuals who were eager to supply and produce food stuffs but because of our supply side economics, which we still have vestiges of and very real vestiges of in our communities, there is quota which one must own in order to be able to own laying hens or to have fryers or to have milk quota.

I would share with my honourable colleague that this is an anathema because here were individuals who had the means, had the motivation, had the skill, ready, willing and eager to produce food stuffs, but because of the constrictions and constraints of these quota boards, they were unable to enter into the market of animal husbandry for which their society was directed and, therefore, that only succeeded in driving up the price of the individuals who did possess these quotas.

So albeit on one hand I laud the concept of collective marketing-and I think that is an organization in society that we should encourage-the aspect of limiting the supply of any sort of commodity is reprehensible and something that ultimately works to defeat the best interests of our consumer.

I can indeed point to another example where at one point when I was in active practice, a number of my colleagues and I thought that we might like to get into the business of selling general insurance, and we were prohibited, we found, from opening up an insurance agency and being and nominating ourselves as insurance agents because we did not earn the preponderance of our living from the sale of insurance.

We thought that at that point, being lawyers, that we were well skilled, understood the concepts and we were honourable individuals and had all the structures and support and resources available, that we could supply this service, but we were prohibited from doing that and felt somewhat aggrieved in that particular case. But what we do, and to be responsive to my honourable colleague's question, when we have direct sellers who go door to door who have no virtual stake in our communities, they are required to be registered by the Consumers' Bureau.

The Consumers' Bureau monitors them with some degree of care, and they do require bonding. This is to protect our consuming public so that if there is somebody who is ruthless or a person of straw, that they are here today and gone tomorrow, then there is some fallback position where if there is some deceit that has been practised at the door, the consumer is protected.

Of course, I am sure that my honourable colleague is also very much aware of the terms of The Consumer Protection Act which allows a cooling-off period and the ability of a consumer to cancel an agreement that is made at the door or at a direct sales-[intetjection] My honourable colleague has just mentioned that it is a 1 0-day cooling-of f period which has been a negotiated level-[intetjection] We are in the process of formulating regulations now to support this legislation which has amended our act, and as soon as they are ready, of course, we will be proclaiming a new harmonized standard which is in conformity with the other provinces across our great nation.

Mr. Maloway: I wanted to follow up a little more with the renovators, but I wanted to finish the discussion about the professional organizations and so on with one comment that I remember being involved in. About 19 89 or 19 90, I guess it was, where we had a proposal before the Legislature that Land Titles Office provide-that we allow individuals when there is buying and selling property to go in and register it on their own. We could not see what the big mystery was and why you were pretty much forced to use a lawyer.

At the end of the day there was quite a fuss made by the Law Society about it, and they did not want to go along with this, but why should the public not be allowed to simply go in and if they want to do a simple land transfer from within the family, why is it a requirement they deal with a lawyer? Why cannot they have a clerk there to simply help them process the transaction? I would not say the Law Society went berserk about this,

2294 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 19 97 but the Law Society was concerned. The Law Society felt that there would be a liability potentially on them and it became a liabil ity question. Anyway, my point is that they rallied around and did their best to quash this, what I thought was a very visionary proposal on our part. Maybe after the next election in 19 99, we will be sitting here and we will be introducing legislation like that, depending on how many lawyers are elected in our caucus, I guess. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chairman, I take great delight, great pleasure in sharing with my honourable colleague the unalterable fact that any person can go down to the Land Titles Office at this point now, as we sit. You can file a transfer of land on your own.

The clerks who are working in Land Titles Office are unable, as my honourable coll eague has pointed out, to offer any legal assistance or direction because, if they were to offer some sort of legal assistance and it were to be misconceived or misapprehended by the individual registrant and it was to the loss of that person, then liability might be visited on the shoulders of that particular civil servant. * (1 520) In fact, what the Law Society, I would suggest, and for the purposes of the record I would want to make clear, in Manitoba says that any person can represent themselves.

You can do that in the highest court in our land; you can stand up and speak for yourself. In fact, we pride ourselves that our citizens have that facil ity and ability to do, and we must never forget that. This applies to all the branches of the law, but what the Law Society does insist on is that if you are going to put your services out for hire to your fellow citizen to plead before the courts or to act as a solicitor, then you must achieve certain levels of education and expertise and be a person who is known to the society.

My honourable colleague has mentioned that he does not see the need for solici tors when transmitting land and land transactions. I would suggest with the greatest of respect, however, that the ability to read and interpret all the registrations that are against a particular piece of property, albeit it does not take monumental intelligence, it does require thoroughness and care and regard for all the registrations. One has to know where to look.

One has to know that when one is buying a residential property it is often prudent to have a survey certificate which indicates that the residential dwelling is wholly within the bounds of the property upon which one is purchasing, that there are no encroachments thereto, that the zoning memorandum complies with the use to which the property is put, and often banks require that good and merchantable title be conveyed by virtue of the mortgage document. One thing that I have noticed that sometimes in conveyancing one must be careful of, especially in the country, is the stacking of oil leases by way of caveat.

In the past in my practice I have noticed that oil companies will go through a particular area of the country, they will sign up farmers with oil leases, they will register these oil leases by way of caveat-and you actually pull up copies of these oil leases, and you will see that they are only good for 10 or 15 years.

Often that time period will have long since expired, but those caveats still remain as a cloud on the title, albeit you say, well. they perform no real substance or real harm to the particular landowner, and I would suggest to the contrary, that if there is, again, another land cruiser coming through looking to sign up farmers so that the farmer can gain more income from leasing his oil rights, he will often pass over those properties which have the old caveats against them and say, ah, well, they are leased out to Imperial Oil, so I will just pass over and move on to more fertile ground.

So there is a very. very small point, but, in fact, in conveyancing I have found that sometimes when you get into meets and bounds descriptions of land, that it is very, very usef ul to make sure that you have a good solicitor who is accustomed to either country conveyancing if that is a particular case in which you are involved or- An Honourable Member: Is there such a thing as a good solic itor? Is there such a thing? Mr. Radcliffe: Absolutely. There is a certain persiflage emanating from the ranks here, Mr.

Chairman, but I would suggest that often the skills of a competent and thorough solicitor in conveyancing often saves the landowner, the prospective purchaser, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars which the innocent citizen could fall prey to and lose if it were not for the skills of a competent person.

May 6, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2295 Mr. Maloway: Having employed the services of lawyers on various occasions, Mr. Chairman, I must admit I have been totally satisfied with the results that have been produced, and so I only have the best things to say about lawyers that I have personally employed over the years. We may as well deal with the fundamental issue, and I think the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) will be sitting on my side of the table on this issue, and that is that the member for Turtle Mountain got here the same time I did in 19 86, and he knows that at that time Mr.

Marty Dolin was elected in Kildonan. One of the things that Marty Dolin used to constantly impress upon our caucus was that it was high time that we translated the laws into English because the average person did not understand the law, was cowed by it and fearful of it and would end up going to a lawyer for all sorts of reasons that, if it was made friendly enough, could do himself. Let me tell you, Mr.

Chairman, that one only has to go to Office Depot and you will find little kits for doing your own wills and doing your own divorces and doing your own registrations of companies and doing your own this and that, and probably-! do not know what the percentage is; I do not know whether it is I 0 percent, 20 percent, 30 percent of the legal agreements can be done by anybody with a little bit of confidence in themselves, can be done by themselves, and we should be encouraging people to do these sorts of things. For example, land titles, and this is not really a territorial sort of question, Mr.

Chairman, because, for example, even the Law Society and the lawyers of this province supported us, at least I believe they did, when we made moves to increase the small claims limits to, I believe, the 2,500 range and then to the 5, 000 range, because the lawyers, quite frankly, did not want to be fiddling around with little rinky-dink sorts of claims. Also, the organization known as PO INTIS has made a business for itself largely I think because lawyers just cannot afford to work for $10 or $20 an hour, which is all you could justify for working on something like a traffic conviction.

So the people at PO INTIS work for $1 00 or whatever it is, and they do your job for you. You could not possibly-! mean a lawyer would not necessarily even want that sort of work. So there are lots of examples where we could, with a little bit of effort- the Consumers' Bureau could make a real effort here, if it wanted to, by sending out speakers to the schools and making an effort to demystify the law a bit and explain to people that, yes, you can do this by yourself and you can do that by yourself. Now, admittedly, there are going to be many examples of where it is not possible.

In doing a will, if the will is going to be compli cated and there is a lot of money involved and there are dependents and so on and so forth then, yes, it is not a good idea to be doing that will on your own. There you need a lawyer to be involved in it. But I think the lawyers in many cases add to the mystique and are very territorial in how they want to deal with the situation and want to protect-and that is not just lawyers, that is just any group within society that is trying to protect its turf. I know, Mr.

Chairman, we started here with renovators, and how we got from renovators all the way around to where we have got, I am really not certain. But I want to know what he is going to do about the renovators. Before I forget, Mr. Chairman, the surveyors-! believe the surveyors too in the last few years have managed to get some sort of a rule and requirement through now that if you are selling a house you cannot-it was customary in the past to use the same survey certificate, you know, after houses were changing hands several times.

Maybe a garage was on the first survey certificate, and it might have been tom down or whatever, but that did not stop people from using the same survey certificate. Finally the surveyors' organization somehow convinced the government or convinced somebody to give them the right now-1 belie ve within the last couple of years now, it is a requirement that every time you buy or sell a house you have got to get a brand new survey done. The minister could probably give me more information on that, but I think that is roughly the truth.

So if he could respond to those comments, and then we could go back to the renovations. Mr. Radcliffe: The first issue that my honourable colleague brought up was that of plain language. I can advise that our government, under the able direction actually I believe of my deputy who is here at the table

2296 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 19 97 today, introduced the plain language measures at our Winnipeg Land Titles and Manitoba Land Titles offices. * (1 530) (Mr.

Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) However, as a note of caution, I would put on the table that while the actual document that is registered nowadays is a one-page document, be it a transmission or a transfer of land or a mortgage document, and it is in plain language, it does make reference to, by virtue of number, a standard precedent, for example, with a mortgage, which will be the standard charge terms which the credit granting institution seeks comfort from.

These standard charge terms are registered in the Land Titles Office, and then by direct allusion, not allusion-by direct ref erence every subsequent document includes and incorporates those standard charge terms in the actual terms of the instrument that is registered in the Land Titles Office. I guess one cannot legislate how people think. One cannot legislate morals. One cannot legislate behaviour. One can modify or restrict the top end of behaviour perhaps.

But from a philosophical point of view, if a lender derives comfort from a series of very intricate and complex, sophisticated wording and they understand and know what those clauses mean by virtue of the fact that there have been court decisions that have interpreted them, there have been legal opinions that have been rendered which give them comfort, then it is very difficult for the legislator to subsequently come along and say, oh well, we want you to stop thinking and making reliance upon those clauses and change your thinking to something very simplis tic and monosyllabic.

However, having said that, I must point out that I have taken great pleasure over the years in reading the judgments of the Privy Council in Great Britain and in particular those judgments of a Lord Radcliffe, who often was able to take a very complex subject and make it very clear in his decision. I feel-1 have taken comfort from that-that when people are speaking from the bench, if somebody has a real grasp of the topic about which they are speaking, they do not need to obfuscate it with very complex wording. I, therefore, have significant sympathy with my honourable colleague, Mr.

Chairman, when he makes a plea for plain language, and I think that in every case where we can in society, these sorts of levels of communication should be rewarded and endorsed. One further point that my honourable colleague has raised- while he was citing the different areas where an individual can go on a self-help basis and obtain forms from Wi llson stationery or now Office Depot and fill them out, that is only one aspect of the function that one goes through when one is transferring wealth or effecting and severing one's relationships with one's colleagues or passing on wealth after one's demise.

In fact, there is another very, very significant and important aspect to this behaviour which perhaps is barred from the individual consumer and that is the aspect of objectivity; that when one goes to a solicitor or a counsel, one has the opportunity to consult with someone who can be totally objective. They are working fee for service. They have nothing to lose or gain from the transaction, other than to see that it is competently performed and completed, but you have the sang- froid of a professional. I remember the adage that I think-Db, it was not Lord Denning, but it was another-it was Dr.

Schmitoff who came to speak to us when we were neophytes in law school, and he said that the individ ual who pleads his own case basically has a fool for a client. I have never forgotten that. That is something, I think, a tenet that any self-help practitioner ought to keep in the back of their mind or even in the forefront of their mind when they are approaching the courts or the regulatory offices, and that if there is anything at all controversial, any individual citizen very quickly, because you have a personal stake in it, one tends to lose one's own objectivity and become emotionally involved.

One's emotions overrule or cloud one's judgment. Then I would suggest, with the greatest of respect, that one is beginning to lose the day because I would suggest that thought and behaviour and relationships of the law are rational, and if they become irrational and emotion enters into it and becomes paramount, then the process is tainted. One of the issues that my honourable colleague mentioned, of course, was the aspect of demystifying

May 6, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2297 the law, and I would suggest that in fact a very good place for this plea would be to present this at the Manitoba Bar.

I would suggest that the practitioners at the Bar would be very open to this because, in fact, any function, really, down to the most complex personal property registration with, say, David Voechting at Aikins Macaulay who is recognized as one of the authorities in this particular endeavour in the province of Manitoba, that he can explain these issues in the simplest and most directive terms, if one were to ask him, because he has such a command of his topic. He can explain that to the consumer. Often I have received significant edification from Mr.

Voechting when working opposite him on particular transactions through his command of the Personal Property Registry, which is in its case a very specific and technical field of endeavour. My honourable colleague, Mr. Chairman, has mentioned the aspect of wills, and, in fact, in Manitoba in order to protect the public we have a very specific format for wills and for witnessing wills.

In fact, a typed will must be witnessed by two individuals who are not beneficiaries to the testator in order that they satisfy themselves that the testator was of sound mind, was not under any undue pressure, and, in fact, if one of those witnesses to that document were to be a beneficiary under the will, the law automatically assumes that person has disinherited themselves because by virtue of their signing the document, witnessing each page and being a witness to the attestation of the testator, it would be a conflict of interest. This is to go to the protection of the testator.

One also has the opportunity, of course, to execute a holograph will in Manitoba, and this is more upon the populist approach, I guess, of my honourable colleague. One can execute in one's own handwriting a testament which as long as it is expressed in clear language and with a clear intent is perfectly acceptable before our courts and even to this day is accepted and honoured and respected before our Surrogate Court, which is a division of our Court of Queen's Bench.

I would suggest to my honourable colleague that when one gets into the ambit of the law that there are many, many complex countervailing considerations which one must take into account and which, in fact, skilled solicitors and barristers today in our court system do take into account in a very sensitive fashion in order to make sure that good service is conveyed to their cl ients. Mr. Maloway: I think the mysticism of professionalism is really strong in the larger centres, but when you get to the rural areas or further up north, you find people in towns with maybe a hundred people in them.

The barber is also the insurance agent, also sells marriage licences, is also the liquor vendor, and that is where professionalism is kind of-w here it becomes obvious, that when you are in a situation like that, people just make do with what is reasonable under the circumstances. For example, in the medical field now, I believe that doctors are going to allow nurses to do some of their functions in rural areas.

They are not going to let them do it in the city and downtown Toronto, but if it is way up north, a thousand miles north, then if the nurse is around, the nurse will be allowed to do some of these things. * (1 540) So I think that professionalism is fine and it has a place, but we have to just understand all sides of it. What I am really asking the minister is what specifically is his department doing or going to do about making these rules more understandable to people and about making people more self-reli ant in this whole area of consumer laws, because people are not getting any more educated.

We have been trying to educate them for years, but we are still finding ourselves not really making a lot of progress. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chairman, I believe we touched somewhat on this point when we were talking about Research and Planning, but I am pleased to advise my honourable colleague that the Consumers branch as well does go out to groups of new Canadians, to schools, to aggregations of individuals in the community and explain to them what it is to be a good and informed consumer, what the issues of the day might be that they should be aware of, and basically to bring common sense, wisdom and education to the community and to explain to the individual groups whom they are addressing the meaning and the essence of the particular statutes which the Consumers' Bureau

2298 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 19 97 administers, namely The Business Practices Act, The Consumer Protection Act, The Personal Investigations Act, The Charity Endorsement Act, The Hearing Aid Act and the Bedding, Upholstered and Stuffed Articles Regulations of The Public Health Act. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, back to the renovators again. Why would the minister not work out a bonding system and registration system for the renovators?

Forget the requirement of courses now and forget the requirement that they have to belong to the central self administered organization and that stuff; just forget those two issues for a moment. Why would they not look at bonding requirements and registration for these renovators? Mr. Radcliffe: Well, I guess, first of all, what we have to do is try and analyze the essence of the nature of the question my honourable colleague is asking. He says: Why would we not bond a renovator? You look at the word "renovator," and that means somebody who renews something.

I presume implicit in his question is somebody who renews something for hire, for commercial activity. Basically I guess what he is asking, and I am being somewhat presumptuous I guess but he is saying that any carpenter, any handyman, any labourer, any tradesman who goes out and lifts a hammer or saw or inserts a screwdriver or does anything, that person should be bonded.

The cost alone, just the virtual cost of registering and naming and numbering every one of our citizens in this country who is involved in the activity of building a fence or raising a post or putting a new piece of siding on a buildin g, I think, just boggles the mind. It brings up, I think, even a very ancient Scriptural prohibition which was: Thou shalt not number thy people. The ancient Jews when they were roaming around in Sin ai were aware of the evils of overregulation of their people.

I think that some of that still applies to our society today, that we do not want to make a national industry out of government itself, which would be the logical result if every handyman, every person who were to be employed in a building trade or building a rec room or a cupboard or a shelf were to be registered, numbered and identified and bonded, that we would have a preponderant group of people watching the watchdogs.

I can only look to that excellent tome by John Milton, Areopagitica, which was on censorship, where Milton was speaking to censors and that really what one ought to do is go out and murder all the censors if one were to give any credence to the fact that one ought to restrict knowledge or information or publication to the community because, of course, then the censor would become the most tainted and corrupt individ ual in society.

It was sort of the idea of the watchdog watching the watchdog and that you create an endless line of individuals who would be performing this function, and it would basically cripple society. I do not want to bring the reductio ad absurdum element to the argument, but I think that very sincerely one must watch that we do not want to be overly regulatory in our society.

There has to be some sort of spontaneity, creativity, and I think probably the fact that we are a very self-r eliant people and our experience of the last two or three weeks I think gives testimony to this, that, in fact, we ought not to rely on regulation if there are people in our society who are fraudulent, who are taking advantage, who are not fulfilling their obligations or their promises. There is a system for dispute resolution and that is called the courthouse. We have mediation centres now where people can submit to resolving their disputes.

We have an Arbitration Act in our governance which allows for a very pacific and moderate resolution of dispute, but, beyond that, if we were to resort to trying to define a renovator and then regulate the renovator, I think that the issue would become so complex and insurmountable that government would be brought to its knees. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the min ister then, has he been approached, has his department been approached by people wanting this kind of activity for renovators? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chairman, I am approached by any number of individuals in the community from time to time, and, in fact, I try, bowing to the exigencies of my legislative duties, to be as approachable and open to every element of society. I can advise my honourable colleague that I have had an approach from one of the stakeholders in the industry who was a spokesperson for a group of tradespeople who was exploring the

May 6, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2299 concept of getting a government endorsement for their exclusive group to the exclusion of all others.

Again, I cautioned him that this was something that government itself was very wary to do because as soon as you say that one group is preferred and another group is not preferred, then you, I think, are becoming exclusive and creating classes of individuals and creating barriers which go to the breaking down of relationships in society and commerce and the free flow of wealth, rather than the building up of these elem ents that we want to encourage. * (1 550) Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minist er, what was the name of that organization and who was the representative? Mr.

Radcliffe: I would be loath to give his name because I do not have the permission of that individual to give his name at this point in time. I can consult with him and if he has no difficulty with my releasing his identity, I would be more than glad to give it to my honourable coll eague. I can, by definition, say that it was a group of renovators. It was not just one particular renovator, but it was an individual acting for a consortia of renovators in the province. Mr. Maloway: On page 13 of the annual report under Li censing, there is reference to the seven days for a buyer to cancel a contract.

Now, can the min ister confirm that that is, in fact, now 10 days? The Saskatchewan provision was 10 days, and I recall when we got this increased four or five years ago we put an amendment to increase it to 10 , vis-a-vis Saskatchewan. At that time the most we could get from the mini ster I think was seven days. My understanding is now that it is-because of this interprovincial trade agreement, they have deferred to the provincial authority with the highest standards, which in this particular case would be Saskatchewan which would be 10 days.

So my assumption is that it is now 10 days, but I am not 10 0 percent sure. Could the minister explain what is going on with this? Mr. Radcliffe: I would confirm to my honourable colleague that seven days is still the active status of the law at this point in time. There has been a legislative amendment that was put through in the last session of the Legis lature, and it has yet to be proclaimed, as I think I referenced earlier, because we are working on regulations to support the change in time span.

As soon as the regulations are proclaimed and have gone through the vetting process, then it is our intention to put in the 1 0-day period. Mr. Maloway: Just a matter of interest. Why would there be a complication in increasing the requirement from seven to 10 days? I mean, why would that take excessive time for changing regulations? Mr. Radcliffe: I believe, Mr.

Chairman, that my department people have the wording, but what is involved is drafting the wording for the cancellation in the contracts that has to be considered by Legislative Counsel and has to clear the different hurdles within government, at which time the process is, I believe, that this will be referred to the min ister and if it meets with the satisfaction of the minister, then the regulations will be proclaimed. There is no hiatus or complication with the issue.

It is just the mills of the god grind slow, and in this case due process is working its way through the thrall of government, and we are anticipating that these regulations will be up very soon. Mr. Maloway: I would like to draw the minister's attention to the bottom of page 16 of the annual report. We are dealing with Agape international ministries. I would like to ask the minister what was happening with this particular pyramid scheme. I think I heard something about this type of thing, but I am not sure whether it is the same one. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised by my department that, in fact, the department acted very swiftly on this case. They sought and obtained an injunction against the principal who was behind this Agape international min istries here in Manitoba. There was a similar court process invoked in Austin, Texas where this individual originated from. Criminal Code charges were laid against this individual under

Section 55 of the Criminal Code, the charges being that of operating an il legal pyramid scheme. I am advised that the salient points of that are that if one has to pay to participate in a pyramid enterprise, that is in itself ille gal. There was a conviction obtained by the Crown

2300 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 19 97 in this particular case, and the indivi dual received a suspended sentence from the courts. The effect of the injunction was in fact to paralyze the operation so that he was rendered totally ineffective in operating in Manitoba. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I refer the minister to the top of page 17 and the situation with Carter Toyota I would like to get an explanation from the minister as what in fact was happening here, all the ramifications involved with this car dealership. Mr. Radcliff e: I am advised, Mr.

Chair, that Carter Toyota and a number of individuals named were the recipien ts of charges laid against them by the Crown under The Business Practices Act and that a plea bargain was entered into and a plea submitted, and five charges were sustained. A conviction was sustained in five different situations against these individuals for improper business practices relating to the sale of automobiles and life insurance policies. *

(1600) Mr. Maloway: This case did not also involve, did it, the failure to collect the GST, basically selling vehicles on reserves. This is not the case that we are dealing with? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chair, our department would not be involved in the colle ction or enforcement of the goods and services tax. Mr. Maloway: The PST. Mr. Radcliffe: Oh, PST. That, again, would be, I think, Finance rather than our department. Mr. Maloway: I think we can probably move on a bit now.

I do want to ask, though, before we leave this area of the department about-there was a monument company that was selling insurance on-be lieve it or not there is such a thing. If you have a monument in a cemetery, you can buy insurance from the graveyard. Well, you can buy insurance through a property and casualty insurance company and just tack it on your homeowner's. It was news to me when I first heard of this a couple of years ago, but there is such a thing.

Evidently, one of the monument sellers was, in fact, selling an insurance policy where they collect depending on the value of your marker, so if it was a $5,000 marker, it would be so many dollars, and if it is $1 0,000, it is another amount of money, and it is a self insurance program similar to what we were just referring to here with Carter Toyota. I am sure you do not know about it. Well, actually, I thought you did, but I had a complaint about it a couple of years ago, and I just wondered if you had heard anything about it, whether anything was done. They are not a licensed insurance company or anything.

They are a monument company, so if you buy a monument from them, they will sell you a little insurance package, that if somebody vandalizes the monument, they will fix it for you. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I am not personally aware ofthis individual practice, and if my honourable col league wishes to raise this with me, if it is still a current practice, I certainly have no problem referring this to the Consumers' Bureau for inquiry.

I would just reflect in passing that, oh, my goodness, the vanities surrounding the whole process of death I think are, in fact, themselves something that is unfortunate in our society. Mr. Maloway: I believe it was the Brookside Cemetery where this situation developed, and the woman in question had purchased I think it was a $1 0,000 monument, and certainly her financial means might not have justified that, but certainly it was a good part of what she could afford to do. So she, I believe, had one of these or certainly had the option of buying this insurance package.

Now, where you would buy a monument for Brookside Cemetery I am not sure, but I think there might be one associated with it up in that area on McPhillips or wherever. I do not know anything more about it than that. This was a couple of years ago. I thought that had been referred to you at the time, but, once again, we are going back a couple of mini sters here. Speaking of having gone back a couple of ministers, where we have another example or another case here, the minister's department might be aware of a company

May 6, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2301 called Travel Smart that was the subject of a number of press reports back around, oh, circa 19 90 or whatever. I think by the looks of things or sounds of things you will be reading about it again relatively soon.

So, if you could dust off your old files, assuming that you have such files, but I would think you do have because what essentially was happening in this case was that the person involved in this company, Travel Smart, was selling once again travel franchises, and at the time he was collecting $50,000 or $40,000, whatever the amount was, for essentially the same functions that an outside travel agent would perform for free to a regular travel agency. So there was no real value here in what was being sold. The media, I believe it was CKND but also the print media, carried stories about this at the time.

In any event, it has been brought to my attention that this particular individual is back in operation now and has a company called Futronics. I guess we are not suggesting that there is necessarily something wrong with this company, but I guess we or the media are interested in knowing whether or not the person who is setting up this company has in fact satisfied all the old judgments against him from the last deba cle that he was involved in. So that is basically the tenor of it.

We wanted to know, given his track record in the past with his previous company and what was done there, we were wondering whether the department was aware of this company and the other company. I think it is called Futronics, and I am just not sure what the other name of it is, but it has got a-there is Telesend, I believe. So do you have any records of this, any complaints about this company, and do you have anything on the old Travel Smart? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chairman, in response to my honourable colleague's remarks, I would react and say that, as an even-handed government, one must be very careful to maintain the same visage to all our citizens. Sometimes individuals do fall into unfortunate business practices, and they either innocently or maliciously do take advantage of their fellow citizens. They are caught and dealt with to the full impact of the law.

But our legal system is such-and I would hope that our community regulations and attitudes are such that-once somebody has paid their debt to society for any misdeed that they may have done, they then have the opportunity to re-enter and interact with their fellow citizens, and the book is closed on that particular issue.

We have made some exceptions to this where perhaps there are child molesters or people who have characteristics that do not seem to be remediated, but short of that, especially in the consumers' protection world, the business world, we try our best at least not to bring forward old issues and old news.

Having said that on one side -and I guess in compliance with that sort of concept and background, if someone under a corporate heading has incurred liability and gone broke and these liabilities, these debts remain unsatisfied, they can be either cleansed through bankruptcy or just remain unsatisfied under the guise of a corporate entity, but that individual has the opportunity under our legal system to start up a new enterprise unless they are debts that are incurred on a personal nature. So, having said that, I can advise my honourable colleague that we are not aware of the two names that he has mentioned.

If there is an individual behind them, which I believe we were discussing earlier, I can advise my honourable colleague that my department is aware of the individual who did get some involvement with the department a number of years ago, but there has been no recent involvement with him. Until somebody were to transgress the law or there were a complaint that had to be sustained, I think the old adage that one is innocent until proven guilty is something that must still rule the day in our society. * (1610 ) Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Chairman, I was just checking with the minister to see whether there had been any complaints t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-40
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 40.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6bead0c00434fa3b45945698fb066de6384bfb34

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