Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 73A (34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-73a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 73A - 1:30 p.m., MONDAY, NOVEMBER 7, 1988. ISSN 0542- 5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANI TOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTIT UE NCY ALCOCK, Reg Osborne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHTON, Steve Thompson BURRELL, Parker Swan River CARR, James Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CHARLES, Gwen Selkirk CHEEMA, Gulzar Kildonan CHORNOPYSKI, William Burrows CONNERY, Edward Hon. Portage la Prairie COWAN, Jay Churchill CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNE Y, James Hon. Arthur DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, L. Niakwa DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon.

Riel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry EVANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen Hon. Virden GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Ellice HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWE R, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. lnkster MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANDRAKE, Ed Ass iniboia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon. Brandon West MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon.

River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Glad stone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gill es Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, November 7, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS ANNOUNCEMENT Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I have a statement for the House. I should like to inform all Honourable Members that I have received a commun ication from the Honourable Hugh Edighoffer, Speaker of the Ontario legislative Assembly, with respect to the proposed Constitutional Amendment 1987. In addition, Mr.

Speaker Edighoffer has been kind enough to provide me with a copy of the report of the Ontario Select Committee on Constitutional Reform � regarding the Constitutional Amendment 1987, which ' was adopted by the Ontario House on June 29, 1988. I am pleased today to table both of these documents. Members wishing to examine them may do so by contacting the Clerk of the House (Mr. W. Remnant). INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct Honourable Members' attention to the gallery where we have, from the West Park School, seventy Grade 6 students under the direction of Mr. Ken Doell.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources (Mr. Penner). On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD CN Rail Layoffs Manitoba Employees � Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my first question is to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger). Wescott Fashions, Doerksen & Gronau, and now CN Rail-last week was quite a week for Manitoba's labour force. Thousands of Manitobans earn their living in this city and in other commun ities like The Pas from CN Rail.

Already many have been put out of work. As for the others, for years they have been haunted by constant speculation that it is only a matter of time before they too would be out of work. Recent reports of 17,000 being laid off does little but aggravate the situation. CN employees have a right to know what lies ahead and not from leaked memos or memos otherwise received. They need to hear from Government and CN representatives. My question to the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Albert Driedger) is what assurances is he able to provide 2817 today that there will not be this massive layoff that an internal memo said would be created at CN Manitoba? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minis ter of Highway s and Transportation): There seems to be conflicting stories as to what is going to happen. Senior officials from CN have indicated that there will be no layoffs. *

(1335) Future Job Losses Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, that is not quite what they said. They said that in five years, between now and then, there would in fact be 4,000 layoffs. Can the Minister tell us how many- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Order! Mrs. Carstairs: Mr .. Speaker , according to the report given to the House of Commons by CN Rail, there will be 4,000 fewer jobs in the next five years. How many of those jobs will be in Manitoba? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Mini ster of Highways and Transportation): lt was my understanding that there would be no layoffs, that they will use attrition in some cases to allow some of the jobs to elapse. I have indicated already at a time previously that I have made an arrangement with the CN people from Manitoba here that before any changes will take place in Manitoba that will affect the employment factor, that I will have an opportunity to discuss it with them because I am as concerned as anybody else that there be no layoffs, that there be no jobs lost.

I will do whatever I can in terms of negotiating with CN and discussing this with them. Mrs. Carstairs: With a supplementary question to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger). The memo talks about 5 years to 10 years and it talks about 17,000. Has this Minister met with CN national officials or will he meet with them, not local but national, and will he find out how many jobs in this province are forecast to be lost? Mr. Albert Driedger: I can indicate that I will try and find out exactly what impact it will have.

I will also try and have written documentation based on the comments made by CN officials that there will be no layoffs in Manitoba. Awasis Agency Meeting Government Officials Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, with a qu estion to the Mini ster of Commu nity Services (Mrs. Oleson). Once again, and

Monday, November 7, 1988 tragically, the Awasis Child and Family Service Agency has made the news. The incidents that have been reported over the past months are tragic and I am certain that the Minister would agree that everything must be done to improve the level and quality of services that this agency provides to our Native children living throughout this province. My question to the Minister of Communi ty Services is: has she met in the past weeks with Awasis officials to discuss the problems in the agency, and if she has, what resolution has been reached? Hon.

Charlotte Oleson (M inister of Commu nity Services): Yes, I share the Member's concern with another tragedy in that agency. I should indicate to the Member that I had recently met with officials from Awasis last month, and after that meeting I indicated to my staff that they should meet with officials of Awasis, plus the officials from the federal Government, to review the operation of the agency and any help that can be given it. New Protocols Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a supplementary question to the same Minister.

Can the Minister table in this House today new protocols which have been established for the Awasis Agency so that events that we have learned about in the weekend and previously cannot occur again? Hon. Char lotte Oleson (M inister of Communi ty Services): We are all anxious that these events do not occur again. My concern is that the problems at Awasis Agency be resolved and the care and protection of children, of course, is utmost in our minds. I have not with me anything that I can table today with respect to the Member's question, but I can take it under advisement. Standards Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a supplementary question to the Minister of Commun ity Services (Mr s. Oleson). Standards of service, training of workers, training dollars, appropriate staffing: all are required, and everyone knows that. Will this Government, under this Minister, commit themselves today to meet with the Department of Indian Affairs, who are the primary fun ders of the Awasis Agency, to ensure that those standards and training dollars are put in place immediately? Hon.

Charlotte Oleson (Min ister of Communi ty Services): As I had indicated in my first answer, that is part of what is going on at the present time. We are reviewing and recommendations will come from those meetings with federal officials. *

(1340) Manfor Ltd. Negotiations for Sale Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is for the Minister responsible for Manfor. Certainly, Manitobans have been concerned over the last period of time with the negotiating style of the present Government-the evaluation of the Manfor plant down to $1, the lack of any specific information on the forestry cut area, the highway weight size and other important factors for Manitobans.

My question to the Minister responsible for Manfor: can he advise the House on the status of negotiations in light of all the rumours that are in the North about an imminent sale, and can he also advise the House whether there is any federal funding involved in the modernization and capitalization of the Manfor plant as part of the negotiations for the sale of Manfor? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister responsible for Crown Corporations): Negotiations with interested parties continue.

As I said the last time that I discussed this issue on the floor, we will not disclose the specific items working towards divestiture of Manfor. We are still fully committed to seeing a major infusion of capital that will guarantee the long-term viability of the operation plus the long-term viability of the jobs. With respect to the other matters, we will not talk in an open fashion about them. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the Member should realize that the forest area, the highways, many of the other important decisions that he is making are Manitoba assets and Manitobans have a right to know the status of their assets, not be left in the dark by this "open Government.'' Federal Funding Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question to the Minister is in light of the fact that Domtar received millions of dollars in federal funding for modernization by the federal Government of a plant located in the Province of Quebec, and in light of the fact that all evidence is clear that the Province of Quebec is receiving close to 34 percent of federal financing, up from 29 percent under the former Liberal Government, almost three times more than the western provinces, can the Minister confirm whether any federal funding has been obtained as part of the deal in light of the precedent that the federal Government has established with Quebec with the Domtar plant?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Min ister responsible for Crown Corporations): lt should come as no surprise to anybody that this Government is pursuing a course whereby, hopefully, there will be federal activity with respect to an increase in the activities within the paper industry that might occur within The Pas region. I say to the Member opposite, though, he kn ows fully well nothing has changed. We will not discuss in public the private matters and the private discussions that we have with people interested in the purchasing of Manfor. Indeed, his colleague, the former Minister responsible 2818

Monday, November 7, 1988 for Manfor, would not discuss in public those types of discussions. We will not either. Mr. Doer: The former Member did discuss the criteria and the conditions for sale, Mr. Speaker, and I believe that those are rights that Manitobans have. Our forestry cut area is a right of all Manitobans, not just the purview of a particular Government at a particular time. Work Force Size Guarantee Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question to the Minister responsible for Manfor: is the Minister, as a part of a condition of the sale, obtaining the same cut area in terms of the Manfor plant; and (2) is he requiring from his negotiators a guarantee, in contract, in written form, of the work force size, including the work force at the sawmill, in writing? Hon. Clayton Manness (Min ister responsible for Crown Corporations): Yes, and yes. Contracting Out Employees Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): A final question to the Minister.

Is there any change in the policy of the Government in regard to the work force operating in the woodlands area? Is there any truth to the rumour that two-thirds of those staff may be potentially contracted out in terms of the work force in the cut area? I said rumour, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister responsible for Crown Corporations): I will not respond to any rumours. I expect to respond to questions of fact. • (13 45) RCMP Protection The Pas Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): My question is for the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae).

In the Speech from the � Throne, this Go vernment made a comm itment to strengthening police services, and in particular rural police services in Manitoba. Just Friday of last week, the Attorney-General cited the work on improving rural RCMP services as an early accomplishment of his department. Again, unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, we see words without action or, in this case, words and then action to the contrary.

My qu estion is, why have six RCMP telecommuni cations officers been ordered removed from The Pas, a town with a violent crime rate over 3.5 times the provincial average which we know is already the worst in the country? What will this Attorney General be doing to replace the 24-hour availability of police at The Pas police station, if anything? Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): The telecommunications personnel to which the Honourable Member refers are being redeployed. lt has absolutely no effect on services provided to the people in the The Pas area. 2819 Mr. Edwards: I beg to differ with the

interpretation of the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae). lt does not meet with what the mayor feels. 1t certainly does not meet with common sense. The police station will not have police officers for 24 hours. My further question is, given that the overall crime rate in The Pas is 2. 7 times the provincial average and the Town of The Pas has had its provincial grant capped at $10 0,000 and will be required to employ two further clerks to do some of the work that the six officers did, will the Attorney-General (Mr.

McCrae) reconsider his decision to strip The Pas of these officers and at least reconsider his decision to not listen to the request by the town council to at least keep three of these in The Pas? Mr. McCrae: I could tell the Honourable Member that I have had one meeting with the mayor of The Pas about this issue. I can also tell the Honourable Member that the crime rate in The Pas will be unaffected by this move. Mr. Edwards: I am certain the crime rate will be un affected. lt is crime prevention and dealing with the victims of crime that the police are concerned with and that the loss will be felt in. Mr.

Speaker, to add insult to injury, crime prevention in The Pas- Mr. Speaker: Order. Does the Honourable Member have a question? Mr. Edwards: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Would you kindly put it now? Mr. Edwards: Yes, Mr. Speaker . Crime Prevention Programs The Pas Mr. Paul Edwards (St.

James): My final question is: when will this Attorney-General fulfil! his commitment, given again just a week or so ago at the crime prevention breakfast to make crime prevention a first priority, and come through on that commitment in particular, for the Town of The Pas, which as of today has zero full time officers working in the crime prevention, yet has the highest crime rate per capita in this province? Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): I appreciate the comments of the Honourable Member.

I see that he has come around to agreeing with the Progressive Conservative Party of Manitoba with respect to crime prevention. I really have to tell the Honourable Member that these commu nications pers onnel, the services of communi cations are still being provided and will still be provided and there will be absolutely no reduction in service whatsoever. The Honourable Member might be able to assist, if he wants to have a discussion with me, about how the communi cations officers have taken

part in crime prevention programs that are sponsored by the RCMP.

Monday, November 7, 1988 Royal Order of the Buffalo Hunt Governor of Maryland Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the First Mini ster (Mr. Filmon). Some years ago, we established an order in this province called the Royal Order of the Buffalo Hunt. lt was an award to be given to Manitobans who had given dedicated service in a variety of fields. In fact, the most recent beneficiary, to my knowledge, was one Eric Wells who was given it in recogn ition of his inc redible contri bution to the broadcasting industry here in the Province of Manitoba.

Can the First Mini ster tell us why he has used it as a wager with the Governor of Nevada? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I made no wager with the Governor of Nevada. * (13 50 Undignified Use Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): We, on this side of the House, have been issued with a press statement that says Premier Filmon will award and accord Governor Schaefer with a similarly rare honour of becoming a Scout in the Royal Order of the Buffalo Hunt. This side would like to know why all previous recipients have been demeaned in this manner. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, Governor Schaefer of Maryland last week approached my office suggesting that we have a friendly exchange whereby, depending on the outcome of tonight's battle between Donny Lalonde-and I hope that the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) has some support for the efforts of Donny Lalonde because of what he has done as an individual in support of, for instance, the fight against child abuse and many contributions that he has made to the commun ity. Therefore, I might correct her on a numb er of counts. She said that it is only awarded to Manitobans; indeed, that is not the case.

There have been many people from outside Manitoba who have been given this award. If she would go through the list of recipients, there are many people who are visiting dignitaries, governors or other levels of people who have visited this province who were accorded that award by previous administrations. There are various levels within the Order of the Buffalo Hunt, some of which are more distinguished levels than others, I might indicate.

Since the Governor was offering to have the Premier of Manitoba made, I believe, Captain of the Chesapeake, which is their equivalent of the award, on behalf of the province, we offered to have the Governor of Maryland made a Scout of the Order of the Buffalo Hu nt should their state's representative be victorious in tonight's fight. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, this has nothing to do with Donny Lalonde and everything to do with a Premier who has no sense of dignity for this province. This is an award of dignity and should not be awarded on the basis of a wager. Why did this First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) wager away and put on the line an award that many Manitobans think to be of significant value? Why did he eliminate its significance? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the significant value of such an event is to call attention, for instance, to the work that Donny Lalonde has done in the fight on child abuse. As a matter of fact, I might indicate that I publicly announced three or four weeks ago that Donny Lalonde was being initiated into the Order of the Buffalo Hunt, and that is win, lose or draw, because we believe that he has done a great deal on behalf of Manitobans.

Whether or not he is successfu l in this particular event, we believe that what he has done in terms of recognizing the importance of the fight against child abuse is important. The attention that he has called to it regardless of the fact that he is a prize fighter is important to the people of Manitoba and indeed to the abused children of this province. Donny Lalonde is going to be here to receive his Order of the Buffalo Hunt in a matter of days and that was announced some three or four weeks ago. * (1 355) CN Rail Layoffs Minister's Awareness Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, my qu estion is to the Minis ter of Hig hways and Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger). I was surpris ed to hear earlier in Question Period today the Liberal Leader (Mrs. Carstairs) raised the prospect of employee reductions of some 17, 000 by CN across the country because it was her co lleague, the Min ister of Transportation at that time, Lloyd Axworthy, who pushed forward with deregulation in this country with undue haste, pushed forward with deregulation in the rail industry, followed, without losing a step, by Don Mazankowski and John Crosbie with the same plan.

I find it very strange that the Liberal Leader now is taking the other side on this issue. In view of the fact that the Minister said earlier in the Question Period that CN would sit down and review their plans before making any reductions or change in the work force in this province, I would ask, in honouring this request, did CN share with the Min ister of Transportation their plans to reduce their work force by some 17 ,000 workers across this country, or indeed, Mr. Speaker, does he only get the information after the fact? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Min ister of Highways and Transportation): I would like to indicate, as I did before, that it is my intention to meet with people from CN to discuss if there is going to be a possible impact on the workers in Manitoba. I find it most interesting, Mr. Speaker, that the Member who had a press conference, Mr. Blaikie, 2820

Monday, November 7, 1988 indicating a leaked memo, and he was critical of the Conservative Go vernment about the deregulation aspect of it having impact on it and the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) was involved in signing the deregulation aspect of it. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, I would appreciate if this Minister would get his facts straight. He has been known to get confused and mixed up on issues before and he has done it again. I would ask that he withdraw that allegation because, in fact, rail deregulation is strictly a national issue at the federal level.

The National Transportation Act is a federal Act and we protested that action every step of the way. I ask that Minister to withdraw that allegation. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. A dispute over the facts. Government Intervention Mr. Speaker: The Honou rable Member for Dauphin, � with a supplementary question. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): lt is fine, Mr. Speaker, if the Minis ter engages in that kind of innuendo which is not correct in this House. I do not think that is becoming of a Minister. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Plohman: In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker- Mr.

Speaker: Would the Honourable Member please put his question. Mr. Plohman: In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the federal Conservatives and Liberals have been forcing CN to act like a private company concerned not with the employees, concerned not with their social and economic responsibilities as a Crown corporation, what action has this Minister taken in view of this startling revelation of some 17, 000 employees facing the loss of jobs in this coun try? What action has he � taken in contacting the federal Minister to have a stop , put on this insanity that is taking place there? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Min ister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated before, there are two lines of commu nication that seem to be coming forward; one from a leaked memo supp osedly, and the assurance that we have from top CN officials that there will be no layoffs in Manitoba. I will undertake to make sure and find out what impact there will be, if any, because I am very concerned that there should be no layoffs in Manitoba from CN and I will have discussions along that line. Transportation Minister's Removal Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Dauphin, with a final supplementary question.

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, this Minister should be erring on the side of caution, not 2821 saying there is not going to be any layoffs, because, in fact, they are reducing by 17 ,000. I ask this First Minister (Mr. Filmon) if in fact he is going to allow his Mini ster to sit idly by without contacting the federal Government, or will he remove this Minister from his portfolio, and will he commit to contacting the new Prime Minister after November 21 and have a stop put to this insanity at CN? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I might indicate that the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Albert Driedger) has been doing an excellent job in all of the responsibilities. Long before the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), who speaks out of both sides of his mouth-on one side, he enters into agreements on deregulation; on the other side, he calls upon our Minister to do certain things-our Minister has been in contact with CN officials. Our Minister has said that he wants assurances that Manitoba will not lose employment.

Our Minister has set up lines of communication so that should CN have any desire to make changes that would affect their employment here that he would be made aware of it, he would have an opportunity to meet on it and he would be able to express the co ncerns of Manitobans. Our Minister is doing a good job unlike the previous Minister, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order, order. * (14 00) Free Trade Agreement Hydro Legal Opinion Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, while I am on my feet, I wonder if I might table a matter.

While I am on my feet, I wonder if I might respond to a question that was asked of me on August 31 by the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie). An Honourable Member: August 31? Mr. Filmon: Yes. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Filmon: We are responding with full and complete information and a desire to be open with all the Members opposite. On August 31, the Member for Flin Flon asked - (Interjection)-If the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) wishes to say something, he can do so when he is recognized. On August 31 -(Interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please. Mr.

Filmon: On August 31, the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) asked me to table any legal opinions that outlined the position that the Free Trade Agreement would put Manitoba Hydro in vis-a-vis a number of issues. At that time, the Member for Flin Flon quoted from an earlier opinion by Cassels, Brock and Blackwell,

Monday, November 7, 1988 a Toronto firm that had been hired by the former NDP administration with respect to opinions on how the Free Trade Agreement would affect Manitoba Hydro. As a result of those questions, Manitoba Hydro sought to have all of the points that were raised by the Member for Flin Flon and others vis-a-vis Manitoba Hydro's ability to sell its electricity under the Free Trade Agreement. A comprehensive -(Interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Honourable Members, I am sure, are aware we have 40 minutes in which to do Question Period.

The Honourable First Minister is trying to respond to a question which was taken as notice. The Honourable First Minister. Mr. Filmon: A comprehensive response has been prepared by that same Toronto legal firm of Cassels, Brock and Blackwell. They have responded to the questions that were asked by the Member for Flin Flon and others.

I would like to table that opinion today because it says in summ ary that specifically a two-tier pricing policy approved by Manitoba Hydro's Board, providing that prices charged to Manitoba customers will be at cost while prices to U.S. customers will be at the best market price available does not contravene the Free Trade Agreement. As a matter of fact, this distinguished law firm believes that Manitoba Hydro's policy of using revenues from all export sales to keep electricity rates low in Manitoba is not limited by the Free Trade Agreement. lt further says- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please.

May I remind the Honourable First Minister that answers to questions should be as brief as possible. Mr. Filmon: There were a series of questions. I would like to respond to them in terms of what the legal opinion says. I will- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Filmon: -just be three more sentences, Mr. Speaker, if I may. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable First Minister, to wind down his answer now. Mr. Filmon: If I may, just three sentences- Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): A point of order. Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Member for Concordia, on a point of order. Mr.

Doer: You have mentioned to all Members of this House that when you stand up we are to stop speaking, not have three or four or ten more seconds. I would just raise that in terms of our point of order. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. The Honourable First Minister did make reference to the fact that it was a legal document and he was just going to finish explaining. The Honourable First Minister. Mr.

Filmon: The opinion further says that the provincial Government appointment of the Hydro Board will not undermine Hydro's status as a commercial entity because the sale of power is a commercial activity, not purely a Government activity. Also, that neither The Manitoba Hydro Act nor The Manitoba Energy Authority Act requires amendment to comply with the Free Trade Agreement. Port of Churchill Continued Use Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): This year an all-Party committee was struck to lobby on behalf of grain shipments to Churchill. This year, Churchill received only 51 ,417 metric tonnes.

The average of grain shipments was 500,000 metric tonnes in previous years. My qu estion to the Mi nister of Hi ghways and Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger) is: what efforts has he undertaken to ensure continued use of the Port of Churchill? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minis ter of Highways and Transportation): I would like to first of all take this opportunity to compliment the all-Party committee that was struck that worked on that very diligently.

I think his counterparts were involved in a very good discussion and I think if it had not been for the lobby efforts of the all-Party committee, that possibly no grain would have moved through the Port of Churchill this year. So I think it was a very positive action that the all-Party committee had and I would hope that we can continue working in that direction, hopefully, with a better crop and not having a drought next year, that we can have an escalated program.

Also, I would like to indicate my department is working on a variety of initiatives to try to make the Port of Churchill as well as the community a more viable operation. Some Honourable Members: Hear, Hear! Diversification Plans Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): To the same Minister: I would hope that he would table those plans in this House. What plans are there for the diversification of Churchill's economy being implemented today. Hon. Albert Driedger (Minis ter of Highways and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker, I may have trouble implementing them today but I have indicated to the Member already that there is a list of 41 initiatives that my department is look ing at. We have an interdepartmental joint committee that is working and looking at all the aspects of things that could enhance any activity that could take place in Churchill. We are working on that. 2822

Monday, November 7, 1988 All-Party Committee Meeting Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): To the same Minister, in a letter from Charles G. Constant to the Minister of Highways (Mr. Albert Driedger), dated November 3, it states that the next meeting with regard to Churchill should be held at Churchill. No such meeting was held. My question is: will this Minister today reconvene the all-Party committee to lobby, even during the federal election, on behalf of Churchill to get a commitment from Ottawa that will stand the test of time and listen to other interested groups with regard to Churchill? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): I would like to ind icate to the Members of the House that I am prepared to call the all-Party committee together to review what next steps could be taken in that regard. As far as having the committee meet in Churchill, I would just like to indicate that the cost would be pretty prohibitive in terms of having all Members fly down � and having a meeting in Churchill.

I would encourage , anybody that has special interest for the Port of Churchill, that they take the opportunity, get down there and acquaint themselves with exactly what is happening in Churchill. Any suggestions that they have to make, I will certainly take them under advisement. Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): My question is to the Minister of Culture, Heritage- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Brandon East, on a point of order. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I believe it is the turn of the New Democratic Party. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Leonard Evans: You were up twice. Mr.

Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable � Member. That is my mistake. , * (1 410) Free Trade Agreement Impact Campbell Soup Ltd. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, there have been media reports that Campbell Soup of United States is ready to put on extra shifts at their Chicago plant to produce more output and ship to Canada if the Free Trade Agreement becomes a reality. I would like to ask the Minister of Industry (Mr.

Ernst), has the Minister received any information from his department on the negative impact of the Free Trade Agreement on Campbell Soup Limited in Portage la Prairie where 350 people are working? Will there be any layoffs in Portage? Will there be any plant closures in Portage by the Campbell Soup Company? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I am rising to respond to that question because it just happens that approximately six weeks ago I met with a number of people from Campbell Soup in the regional management area, their sales manager for western Canada and their vice-president from the East, who were here to speak about a variety of opportun ities that they were pursuing in terms of diversification that they might be looking into that might involve some further investment in Manitoba. I had the opportunity to ask directly what Campbell Soup Company's position was on free trade.

They are supportive of the Free Trade Agreement and indeed look upon it as an opportunity for expansion and growth in Canada. Impact CSP Foods Ltd. Mr . Leonard Evans (Brandon East): A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Industry (Mr. Ernst). Has the Minister been in communication with CSP Foods Limited of Altona with respect to the negative impact of the Free Trade Agreement? That company which employs 85 people has stated that it will lose millions of dollars in sales and generally will be hard hit. Will this Minister, will his department, be able to help CSP Foods Limited of Altona in any way? Hon.

Jim Ernst (Minis ter of Indus try, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated dur ing my Estimates, I was going to meet and have in fact met with a wide variety of people from various indus try sectors in Manitoba. On the day that I met with the food processing people, CSP Foods was present at the meeting. They did not indicate anything of the like that was reported in the newspaper

article the other day. As a matter of fact, they indicated to me that they had every confidence that they were able to compete in the oil seed sector. I do not know where that

article came from and I have not yet had an opportunity to contact CSP Seeds to determine whether that is an accurate statement or not. The indication to me during the public meeting was, in front of any numb er of other people also associated with that sector, that they were not fearful of free trade; as a matter of fact, supported it. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, for the information of the Honourable Minister, it was a Mr. AI Hoffman of that company who was quoted in that respect. Impact McCain Foods Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): My last question to the Min ister, again in the food processing industry and leaving marketing boards aside, Mr. McCain of McCain Foods Limited has stated categorically that they may be forced to close the plant in Portage la Prairie if the Free Trade Agreement becomes a reality. Again I ask the Minister of Industry (Mr. Ernst), has his department any contingency plans to offset such a closure in Portage la Prairie? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I find that strange because last night on the news I watched an indication-as a 2823

Monday, November 7, 1988 matter of fact I believe it was Venture which followed the national news last night, the fact that McCain Foods signed a $45 million contract with Burger King, U.S., to provide french fries to that market. They also indicated at that time that they had acquired a plant in South Dakota to also service that market, the fast food market, as well as one in Washington State in the United States. The plant in Portage la Prairie provides french fries for two major suppliers: one is McDonald's in Canada; and the other, about 50 percent of their exports go to the country of Japan. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. The time for oral questions has expired. SPEAKER'S STATEMENT Mr. Speaker: First of all, let me thank the Honourable Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) for bringing that point forward. I would like to remind all Honourable Members of our Rule 38.( 1) which states quite clearly, a Member addressing the House, if called to order by either the Speaker or on a point raised by another Member, shall sit down while the point is being raised. I am sure that all Honourable Members would like to be aware of that rule. NON- POLITICAL STATEMENTS Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I might have leave to make a non-political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable First Minister have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, at least I hope this is a non political statement. I will leave the others to judge it. Tonight, Winnipeg's Golden Boy, Donny Lalonde, will face Sugar Ray Leonard in a 12-round bout for the World Boxing Council's Twin Championship in Las Vegas, Nevada. At stake is the WBC's Light Heavyweight Championship as well as the vacant Super Middleweight Title.

Manitobans, of course, are all rooting for Donny Lalonde and wish him well as he enters the ring this evening. We know that he will bring honour and attention to his home town and his province; and as a matter of interest, Mr. Speaker, I would indicate, as I think it has been raised to public attention previously, that I have made a friendly wager with William Donald Schaefer, the Go vernor of Maryland, Sugar Ray Leonard's home state. If Mr.

Leonard loses, Governor Schaefer will bestow upon me the rare honour of "Adm iral of the Chesapeake" and present me with a bushel of famous Chesapeake Bay softshell clams; and, if Lalonde loses, I will accord Governor Schaefer the honour of becoming a "Scout in the Royal Order of the Buffalo Hunt" and I will treat him to a dinner of Manitoba buffalo steaks. We have indicated as well, very recently, our support for the tremendous work that Mr. Lalonde is doing in calling attention to child abuse and a project by New Faces.

Northeast Winnipeg Family and Child Welfare Agency is undertaking a project under the Victim Impact Assistance Fund to fight the incidents of child abuse and to support the people who are unfortunately victims of child abuse. That was a decision of the administration just last week. I know that Mr. Lalonde will have the support of all Manitobans in this endeavour and that win, lose or draw, he will bring very positive attention and credit to our province. So, on behalf of all of us, Mr. Speaker, I extend a message of congratulations and best wishes to Donny Lalonde. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Mr.

Richard Kozak (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, if I could have leave to make a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honour able Mem ber for Transcona have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr. Kozak: Boxing has a proud history, Mr. Speaker, but in recent times it has been a controversial sport. Non ethe1e ss, Canadians recognize the su perb achievements of our boxing team at the Summer Olympics in Seoul and there is no controversy about Manitobans' pride in one of our native sons, Donny Lalonde.

Don has brought honour and recognition to Winnipeg and Manitoba by winning the World Boxing Council Light Heavyweight Championship in a bout against Eddie Davis last November. He successfully defended Manitoba's first World Boxing Title against Leslie Stewart in Port of Spain, Trinidad, earlier this year. Manitobans honour Donny Lalonde not only for reaching the pinnacle of his physically demanding and character building sport but also for becoming an inspiring world-wide advocate on behalf of abused children. Don Lalonde is Manitoba's athlete of the year.

I am proud to count him among my friends and the Liberal Opposition wishes him success in his title fight this evening against Sugar Ray Leonard in Las Vegas. Thank you. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I would also request leave of the House to make a non political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) *

(1420) Mr. Doer: I will not make my Bur gess Meredith statement. I want to add our words, and I am sure all of us have the same idea-and perhaps the Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery) would like to get into this non-political statement, too, Mr. Speaker. I hear he has had some history in this area before. I would like to add our words, and I am sure all Parties have had the same thought today with joining 2824

Monday, November 7, 1988 Canadians, Manitobans and Winnipeggers on the fight tonight taking place in Las Vegas, Nevada. I know a num ber attended the event last week that was held in honour of Donny Lalonde. I had the opportunity to attend it as well, an event sponsored not only for Donny Lalonde's fight but also sponsorship for the Jets for Kids Program, and the child abuse, Donny Lalonde's fight against child abuse. Those of us in northeast Winnipeg know first-hand the work with Donny Lalonde with the agency directly. He has been a speaker at various fund-raising events in our area.

He has worked with Ellen McConachy on programs for child abus e and getting in to the schools, the commun ities, the areas at first-hand where the child abuse problem can be identified at its earliest stages. I am sure that Donny Lalonde will do well tonight. I know his friends from Fort Rouge particularly are all down there this evening as well as other Winnipeggers. I know we contributed some Golden Boy pins and I hope they find themselves on our American friends this evening in terms of a good-will gesture.

We have no problem giving Americans our friendly pins and inviting them back to Canada, but we do not want them to take our water with them-but that would be a political statement. I know that he will do well tonight. I know all Manitobans wish Donny very well. The former Minister of Sport had the privilege of presenting the last award to Donny Lalonde. He did so in his own community refreshment area in Fort Rou ge. I am sure that Manitobans and Canadians will want to join with Donny Lalonde when he returns in having one of the greatest victory parades worthy of a great person and a great fighter.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I have a non-political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Minister have leave to make a non-policital statement? (Agreed) � Mr. Derkach: One of the finest investments that , Mani tobans can make is certainly in the field of education and in providing our youth with a vital education that is going to make our province a strong province and is also going to contribute to the strength of our nation. However, it is recognized that a child does not learn in isolation, but rather from a total life experience.

An understanding of a joint venture in this area of education between parent and educator ensures that we are able to provide for the youth of this province the finest education system in the country. lt is in the best interests of the child that the cooperation of parents and educators is so important. The Home and School Parent-Teacher Federation has done a great service in providing and encouraging the promotion of cooperation between educators and parents.

The Home and School Parent-Teacher Federation has also provided information to parents on such important issues as literacy, child abuse, family life and AIDs education. 2825 Because of the ongoing contribution that the Home and School Parent-Teacher Federation has made, as Minister of Education, I would like to proclaim this week, November 7 to 12, as Home and School Parent-Teacher Federation Week. COMMITTEE CHANGE Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a change to the Public Utilities Committee. I move, seconded by the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Praznik), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: Findlay for Cummings. * (1 430) ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Honourable Mi nister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr.

Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Education; and the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) in the Chair for the Department of Health. CONCURRENT COMMIT TEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-EDUCATION Mr. Chairman, Harold Gil leshammer: I would like to call this meeting to order to discuss the Estimates of the Education Department. We are on item 4. Program Development Sup port Services, (

b) Cu rriculum Development and Implementation:

(1) Salaries-the Honourable Minister of Education. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I have some responses to hand out this afternoon for questions that were asked and that we took as notice, or said that we would provide information. First of all, copies of the AID S curriculum for Grades 7, 8 and 9 are attached to this information. Copies of the AIDS Bibliography available from the Department of Education Library are also attached, and copies of comp leted writing and science assessments are attached.

There was a question asked of the number of teachers who will be attending the AIDS in-service meetings in the current year, and we are estimating 194. There was also a question asked, Mr. Chairman, about the average age of retiring teachers prior to the implementation of the age 55. In 1984, the average teacher age was 39.5 years; in 19 87, the average age of teachers across the province was 40.2 years. Mrs. lva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Just a comment, I was somewhat taken aback when we met last Thursday

Monday, November 7, 1988 evening by the Member for Flin Flon's (Mr. Storie) statement that he had allowed the Member for Sturgeon Creek some latitude in questioning. When I heard that, I must admit I was sort of surprised. This morning, I looked up the word "latitude" in the Webster Dictionary, and it means freedom of action or choice. I am just wondering how the Member for Flin Flon could say that he had allowed me some freedom of action or choice when I felt that I was participating as a duly qualified Member of the team to use whatever latitude we are allowed within the parameters of the commit tee meeting.

The other comment that rather surpris ed me was last Monday when he asked me how much longer I felt the committee would be sitting. He wondered if we could aim at finishing all questioning next Monday, meaning today. I must admit that I found that rather surprising in that he chose to take some one to two hours to question the Minister with regard to teachers' retirement, and then another one to two hour s questioning on the teaching of AIDS.

I feel if he, in fact, did want to speed up the process, I certainly do not feel that I have been at fault in slowing the process down, being that we now have gone some 19.5 hours. I did not sit down because I felt it was a fruitless exercise to indicate the num bers of hours that I had spent in questioning and the number of hours that the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) had spent.

At any rate, I am certainly pleased that the Member for Flin Flon has allowed me the latitude, and I can assure the committee members that I shall continue to take whatever latitude I feel is necessary in order to get the answers to the questions that I might have. I was asking questions last Thursday with regard to the home ec, phasing out of the home economics from school divisions because that had been a concern that had been raised with me. I was certainly pleased by the Minister's response with eyeballs protruding to say that, yes, he was emphatically in favour of the home ec continuation.

The schools-and I did promise that I would refer to the various schools that were mentioned to me-one of the schools was Lindenwoods, a K to 9 school. There may even be two schools, K to 9, in Lindenwoods, both of whom are in the process of developing their architectural plans and both would very much like fairly swift response as to whether in fact they will be able to have home ec rooms in their new facilities. Another school that I have been told has been denied the building of a home ec room is a K to 9 or certainly a junior high school in Transcona. Another, I understand, is Fort Garry, the Arthur A.

Leach Junior High School. lt is my understanding that there is a new French Immersion high school to be built in St. Vital, and they are hoping that they will be given permission to build industrial arts and home economics rooms in the new French Immersion high school in St. Vital.

Those were the ones that were mentioned to me, and I am hoping that the Minister will fairly promptly have someone in his department notify these particular schools if in fact the denial is there and the Minister is saying that these schools should be permitted to go ahead with the building of home ec and vocational arts or industrial arts classes. If I am to ask that in the form of a question, I can certainly phrase it in the form of a question. * (14 40) Mr.

Derkach: With regard to the Member's comments in her opening remarks and the amount of time she has spent in asking questions, I would have to say that I have appreciated the questions that the Member has asked because certainly they have been for information purposes. That is what we are here for is to try to provide as much information as possible. I must express a little disappointment in some of the areas that we have spent a great deal of time, where I think we could probably have invested it more wisely in some of the other areas.

However, I am prepared to stay here as long as necessary to complete full discussion of these Estimates, regardless of the number of hours. With respect to the home ec facilities, there was a moratorium as I understand it, put on but that was for the conversion of existing facilities. lt is not at least my intention to have a moratorium on supplying those kinds of facilities where they are needed for a new building. Certainly, I will take the comments that the Member has made under advisement and research this whole area to get a better understanding of what really has transpired in the past.

Then I will be able to report back in a more informed way. Mrs. Yeo: lt is because of my concern and the fact that, to me, home economics does not just mean when the Home Ec Faculty at the University of Manitoba change their names from home economics to human ecology, my children and some friends of my children and I attended an open house at the un iversity. One of the signs intrigued me that said something to the effect that home economics ain't just cooking and sewing, which maybe it ain't just English as well but it was trying to make a point and I think it did.

Home ec means family life style, family living, instruction in family violence, that sort of thing. I am certainly pleased. I understand that home economics in December of 1985 was given the accreditation as a 00 standing and was also given permission, if you will, to be used as a university entrance course. This was given by the Curriculum Policy Review Committee. This decision was then revoked, I believe, in February of 1986 when the High School Review Committee was announced.

Again, I emphasize my desire, along with many others in this province, for a fairly hasty review of the High School Review's recommendations. I was asked just yesterday by an individual who called with concern actually in relation to the 18 Program who said, what happens to the High School Review Report when it is submitted. My response was, I assumed that it would be tabled in the House by the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach), and I hope within the next couple of weeks at the most. Tomorrow or the next day would be fine.

Once it is tabled in the House, I was not sure what would happen to that particular report. May I ask the Minister today what will the next steps be with regard to the High School Review Report, 2826

Monday, November 7, 1988 being that it seems to me every fourth or fifth sentence that any of us utters says, well it depends on the results of the High School Review Committee? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I think we are all waiting in anticipation of the High School Review at least being tabled. Certainly, we understand that once that process is complete then we have to embark on the next stage, which would be a thorough reading or review of the report itself.

From there, we will have to develop a strategy as to how we are goin g to embark on implementing those recommendations of the report that we accept and then what we will do with those that perhaps we reject. I am not speculating on accepting some and not accepting others. I simply think that we have to do a thorough examination and evaluation of the recommendations that will be made within the report and then proceed from there. Hopefully, we can embark on that task very quickly after we have had the High School Review tabled.

Certainly I intend to, in tabling the High School Review, � give some indication as to the direction this department , will take with the High School Review. I do not intend to leave Manitobans and the Opposition Parties sort of wondering where we go from here. I think it is important that as a department and as Minister we do embark on a direction which is going to indicate some positive direction with regard to the implementation of those recommendations that are accepted. Mrs. Yeo: Mr.

Chairperson, I have not had a chance obviously to review these responses to questions that were raised but, No. 3, "the copies of completed writing and science assessments are appended." Is that the results of the science and writing assessments that are done of the young people in our schools? Is it just for 19 87? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the science was the 19 86 final report that you have in that package of material that has been handed around. The writing assessment was the 19 87 writing assessment, and that is the preliminary report of the writing assessment that was � done in 19 87. Mrs.

Yeo: Not having had the time to read through them and without taking the time right now to quickly read through them, can the Minister tell us whether the young people in our schools are getting better in their responses? Are the results of the testing increasing or are they decreasing since, say, 19 80, 19 82? Mr. Derkach: The final assessment on the science assessment test indicated that there was no significant change from the science assessment that was conducted previously . I believe that was 19 80 and that was in the Grade 5 area.

In the Grade 8 area, the overall performance seemed to decline a little bit in terms of the six topics that were tested. The Gr ade 11 students, the overall test results indicated that here again there was a decline in the performance on the six topics and there was a bit of an improvement on three topics. So therefore, there is not any real significant change over the previous test. The writing test is just a preliminary test, so we will not know what the overall is until we get the final report in. Mrs. Yeo: What about the comparative results for mathematics, and I am thinking more in the high school level?

What is happening to our assessment of our students in Grades 10, 11 and 12 in mathematics over the past six, seven, eight years? Mr. Derkach: The overall performance was somewhat disappointing in that the results generally indicated that there was a decline and the results therefore were somewhat unsatisfactory both in the 300 and, to a lesser degree, in the 301 math. Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister give any rationale for this drop? Can there be some sort of reasoning developed around this drop? * (14 50) Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, I do not know how you can quantify this but most of the students who excel in mathematics and especially those who in the semester system-! guess just those in the semester system will take mathematics in the first semester. The weaker students or the students who find math a little more difficult will take it in the last semester. That is sort of a general rule.

Because the assessment was done in the latter part of the year, it may have been that those students who were tested were the weaker ones and so, consequently , the results were somewhat lower than expected or more disappointed than were expected. Mrs. Yeo: Is there any research done or any attempt made by this department to try and correct this drop? What sorts of things are being done that will hopefully correct this situation? Mr.

Derkach: I guess two significant things that are being done are: one, there has been an increase in the amount of professional development work that is being done with teachers across the province in mathematics; and, secondly, the staff in the department are now working on revising the math curriculums to ensure that in fact we do have a greater emphasis on the skills that perhaps are lacking. Hopefully, through the High School Review, we will get some indication of where the weak areas are and where we need to be concentrating more of our efforts. Mrs. Yeo: What about reading?

I supp ose that comes under language arts, but I am wondering what the results are. Are the results similar to those of the assessments in science where they remain fairly steady although there has been a little bit of a drop or are they similar to those of the assessments in mathematics where there has been a drop? Mr. Derkach: In this area the results were considerably improved over the results in the math area.

As a matter of fact, in a general sense, in the Grade 3 area, right through to the Gr ade 12 area, the results were satisfactory and that includes in the Grade 12 area both the 300 and the 30 1 areas. 2827

Monday, November 7, 1988 Mrs. Yeo: I have had a couple of concerns by individuals from various parts of the province actually asking if there was any thought to doing a study on the relevancy of the new curriculum for language arts as a teaching guide. There have been statements made that it is in part poorly written and anti-literate for its lack of commitment to the teaching of literature, but it tends to take a fairly singular approach on how to teach and tends to be a tool used by administrators to manipulate teachers.

Those are pretty harsh words and they were copied from one particular phone call that I received and since then, and that was early on, since then I have received a few other concerns raised by parents and by teachers about the new language arts curriculum. Mr. Derkach: I dare say that the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) is not alone in the kinds of concerns she has heard because I too have heard concerns across the province about the language arts program and certainly that causes me some concern.

However, I can say that the approach is somewhat different than the traditional approach in that we are dealing with the whole language approach to teaching language arts and I can say that the language arts committee, the English Language Arts Committee, is continuously monitoring the program and hopefully in the next few weeks I will have the opportunity to address this area and talk to the committee and see what kinds of results they have found from their meetings and then we can embark on addressing the concerns of the people that we have heard from.

Also, I think, try to substantiate whether those concerns are really out there or whether it is just isolated in a few areas, but I have heard those as well. Mrs. Yeo: I believe that the children starting in kin dergarten, I think it was this year, will graduate in the year 2000. I am wondering if there is any projection or any possible type of data that would indicate of the number of children that started this year, in September or late August of 1988, how many are expected to successfu lly complete Grade 12. Mr. Derkach: We do not have that kind of data available right now.

Certainly that is something that would fall into the category of Planning and Research. I have not discussed it with Planning and Research to see whether or not they are intending to embark on that kind of an investigation or survey or projection? Mrs. Yeo: I realize sometimes it maybe difficult to follow these students too because we are a transient society and there are students who move from one part of the province to another part, from one part of the city to another, from school to school, from province to province, and even from country to country.

Is there some form of numerical system utilized to identify students to follow them as they move in this way from school to school? Mr. Derkach: This is a direction I think that the Canadian Ministers of Education Council had suggested that we perhaps move in terms of trying to get this kind of data. We have a system that is now present in 85 schools which is a computer sys tem. The school administration system is capable of getting that kind of information and storing it and then we could be able to share it.

So therefore, with the new computer systems being installed in schools across the province, certainly we will have the capacity to do that in the near future. Mrs. Yeo: We are living in a numerical society where we are tagged with num bers for every darn thing that we apply for, credit cards, etc. However, we are all issued a Social Insurance number. Is there any thought or would there be any merit in utilizing the Social Insurance numb er instead of having a student number sort of thing? This is something that an individual has and carry with them hopefully for the rest of their lives.

Would there not be some merit in considering the SIN number? * (15 00) Mr . Derkach: I think two things, Mr. Chairman. First of all, the Social Insurance numbers are not issued to children at a very young age, so therefore we cannot use that. Where that system is used, school divisions or provinces are moving away from that system to the student number rather than the reverse. There is no thought of going in that direction at this time. Mrs.

Yeo: I can certainly appreciate using the student number-kids in un iversity and kids in high schools have them, but I do not think that properly addresses the transiency of our society. Certainly it is fine to say that a young child is not issued a num ber. My son, at the age of seven, was told he had to have a SIN number if he wanted to continue playing hockey. Surely, a child at the age of five could be issued a Social Insurance num ber. For goodness sake, a child at birth could be issued a Social Insurance num ber.

I think there must be something, and I realize this is a bit away from the Curriculum Development and Implementation, but we got on the line and I am concerned about losing records of students or not having records follow students with any relative ease. I have seen students who have come from Ontario, who have had difficulty getting their records after having been in Manitoba for two, three years. I really think that this is something that could be addressed by the Council of Ministers far more effectively than it has been. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, I think there are several problems in terms of trying to use the Social Insurance num ber. One of the problems is that it has been found that there is a problem of duplication of numbers, and the fact that every time you use that number or want to get access to that number or whatever, you are involving the federal Government. Now the Council of Ministers have pointed to a direction that is different than using the Social Insur ance num ber.

As a matter of fact, there has been a meeting of the western Education Departments in coming up with an approach using a student number, not the Social Insurance number but a student number whereby it 2828

Monday, November 7, 1988 would be easier to track students as they move from one jurisdiction to another. Hopefully, in the future, we will be able to come up with a system that is going to be adopted nationwide whereby we can then keep easier track of records of students who move from one area of the country to another. Mrs. Yeo: lt is rather sad to see that Big Brother even makes mistakes in recording num bers, but I am pleased to see that the Minister and his counterparts across the country are looking at a better method.

Just a couple of quick questions with regard to and again I think it would come under Curriculum Development-the teaching methods, the types of strategies that are used in teaching reading. I think it is appropriate to have some concern raised that I have had for a number of years actually, especially seeing that the Minister has allocated such a tremendous amount of money to look at the problem of illiteracy.

When I think as Mary Johns on said in her book, "there is some programmed illiteracy in our schools," is the � phonics method utilized today in teaching of reading , in our early education by children? - Mr. Derkach: I think over the last few years we have heard a considerable amount of controversy over the phonics method as opposed to the whole language method of teaching reading. I can honestly say that there are still some areas in this province where the phonics method is preferred to the whole language approach.

However, the whole language approach that is used today in the teaching of reading is not the pure whole language approach, I do not believe. I think that within it we have the areas of phonics and of spelling and of grammar and of all the components that make up the reading and comprehension aspects of reading. But certainly I have to say that we have heard some concern about preferences being given for one system over another. But right now in the province, the language arts curriculum does use the whole language approach, but within that it also uses the method of phonics and sight reading and so forth. Mrs.

Yeo: I think we have lost a number of children down the pike because of this word recognition type of attack. I can well recall-! have four children, all who have graduated from high school, none of whom I hope are illiterate in the broad sense of the word, but each one of our kids, although they have done quite well academically, have had a very tough time with English literature, language arts, whatever it is called at un iversity. In Grade 7, we raised the concern with the principal of the school. I am not a single issue parent in any way, shape or form.

I believe wholeheartedly in our school system, in our public school system in particular. But I was concerned when we raised with the principal of our daughter in junior high school the difficulty she was having in reading, etc., and the lack of love of reading. Although in our home we have had books since Day One, I have read to our children from the time they were a few months old, we were told, well, just have her skip over the words that she does not 2829 understand and the meaning of the sentences will come to her.

That child, the oldest of the four, and each one of our children who have been taught in the same methods of teaching have had difficulty with English. I am concerned and it is a concern that has been raised with me on several occasions, and I would hope that the Minister would look very carefully at the method of teaching reading. Certainly, there is stress on the need for parental involvement.

However, I feel badly, in homes where the parents have not had the opportunity or the desire to obtain the books for their children and these parents rely solely on the school system to build up the ability of their children to read. I would suggest that the Task Force on Literacy should, in their research and in their investigation, take a very good look at how our children are being taught throughout across the province in their methods of teaching of reading. Mr.

Derkach: I can honestly say that I am and so is the department aware of the problems that are associated with the teaching of reading, and we are dealing with that in terms of addressing the issue by taking a look at what is happening in the school divisions. Certainly, I am going to be very emphatic that we in fact address this very directly . I have to indicate to the Member that I was a chairman of a school board when controversy broke within our school division on the approach to reading.

The school division was using the phonics system of approach, and there were a group of parents who thought that perhaps we should be moving in the whole language direction and so, therefore, the controversy started. Certainly, it is an issue where parents are aware of problems associated both with using one system as compared to the other and one that we are going to have to involve parents when we start talking about developing a program. But I do not know that it is an easy solution, but it is certainly one that we do have to address. *

(1510) Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): In committee after committee that I have sat in, when we have spoken of affirmative action, most Ministers will respond that it is a need in the educational system to bring the awareness front and forward with our youth so that when they come out into the working society, they will be aware as women or as handicapped people or as minorities that they have as many equal rights to have employment wherever they wish, whether it be as a plumber or whether it be as an engineer.

So my question to the Minister is: is there any program or process established whereby, in the educational system of Manitoba, affirmative action is being employed within the curriculum itself? Mr. Derkach: Within the new curriculums, that is sort of emerging in the new curriculums that are coming out in that there is an emphasis on making sure that affirmative action is addressed. I can tell you that an example of that is the recent announcement by the

Monday, November 7, 1988 federal Minis ter that the science scholarships, for example, will be going to those students who want to enter the science and technology area, but 50 percent of those will be going to women. Both in the curriculum itself-we also addressed that-and the new curricula do have that woven into the curriculum. Mrs. Charles: I just want to go a bit further on that. I was not particularly speaking of what is available as to courses.

I am more concerned with how it is portrayed within the study process itself, whether the readers portray handicapped people, whether the readers portray minorities, and whether they have roles that are established roles or whether they indeed have roles that we would like to see as a future development for equality. Mr.

Derkach: Within the content of the materials that are presented, certainly those areas are included to ensure that those people are fairly represented, whether it is the minorities or the handicapped or the women, to ensure that there is an awareness by the student who is taking that particular program and that there is an attitudinal change perhaps towards the way that we perceive all people of society and the need for affirmative action to be part of our normal living world. Mrs. Charles: Indeed, this su bject often brings up reactions in people and they feel as though they almost have to excuse themselves.

I am certainly not trying to put anyone on the spot, because I think it is all of society's errors in the past that have allowed these roles to continue. I would ask the Minister if there is any means whereby there is perhaps a crediting system. When they review what texts are going to be used for the year, is there any way that they may score points as to the content as to the affirmative action process within the books that are used? Mr. Derkach: Jus t a clarification from the Member as to what she means by "score points." Mrs.

Charles: I am just wondering by which means the texts are decided upon and if, in this manner of deciding upon which text is being used, they are weighed as to the value of affirmative action goals. Mr. Derkach: I am not going to sit here and say that we have got a perfect system in terms of the way that we approach the whole issue of affirmative action. I am not going to say that in each and every program we address the concept of affirmative action in a complete form.

But I have to tell you that within the department there has been a selection committee in place which, in selecting the materials, has looked very closely at ensuring that in fact those kinds of areas are addressed when materials are being selected for the curriculum. Mrs. Charles: Can the Minister tell me if there have been any in-service programs on affirmative action goals within the curriculum? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, in the list that we handed out of the in-services that we are providing this year, I think the Member will notice that there is a

section there on affirmative action in-services or sessions that will be offered. Certainly, those are addressed at such things as women in science, women in math and so forth. Mrs. Charles: Just to stress again, I realize what the Minister is getting at and I do not want to be defensive because, as I point out, I think it is awareness that is just becoming part of our lifestyle. I wonder if these in-services also are planned to bring awareness as within the roles and the study areas within the schools that affirmative action should be given more priority than perhaps it is at the moment.

Through awareness, we can allow our children to be raised and seek equality for who they are as people, not perhaps what sex or what handicaps or what race they may be. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, this is not new to the department. Certainly, the department has been working on this for a number of years. As I indicate, it is not perfect. Certain ly, as we move along, we are endeavouring to in fact improve as we go.

Hopefully, as time moves along, we will get to a point where in fact we will have done all we possibly can in ensuring that there is no discrimination against minorities or against women or against handicapped people, that we are all equal in terms of the workplace, in terms of the world itself. Mrs. Charles: Just as a closing remark then, I would urge the Minister to maintain a priority in this manner because I think, if we are going to have our youth develop in the world where there is equality, that they have to be taught very young, not only by their parents and by society but indeed within the classroom.

I guess my question to the Minister, is this an ongoing priority and where would he rate it as into the priority of curriculum development? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I would have to say that this department itself is one of the probably leading departments in terms of providing opportunities for women. I would have to say that some 40 percent of our administrative staff right now are women, I think. In this particular division, I am told, 50 percent are women. In the Finance area itself, I think we have got about 70 percent. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr.

Chairperson, just have a few areas that I would like to cover fairly quick ly. Could the Minister give me some idea of what the status of the peace education curriculum is? Mr. Derkach: In the spring of this year, Mr. Chairman, the materials I understand for Grades 7 to 9 and 10 to 12 were distri buted, and it is all apparently incorporated into the social studies program. Ms. Hemphill: Mr. Chairperson, then is this something that all students that this is part of their regular curriculum, or is it an optional program that may or may not be taught in the schools? 2830

Monday, November 7, 1988 Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, it is an optional

section that teachers may select if they so choose. Ms. Hemphill: Can the Minister tell us what, if any, information he has about how many school divisions are choosing to implement peace education? Mr. Derkach: lt is an integrated kind of program so, therefore, we do not have an accurate indication, but a ballpark figure would be, I am told, about 30 percent. Ms.

Hemphill: lt is a bit difficult to try and figure out just what kind of an animal it is then if it is integrated into a regular curriculum and they are all receiving it in the regular curriculum but it is optional so that they can choose whether or not to cover it. lt might be a little hard to understand whether it is optional or regular . Is the department doing anything to encourage the promotion of the peace education program and are they doing anything to help teachers prepare them, since this has not been part of the curriculum before, for handling the unit and the curriculum? Mr.

Derkach: There have been some requests for in services in this regard but certainly not an overwhelming num ber. To date, we as a department have no t structured any in-services that would zero in on this particular issue. * (15 20) Ms. Hemphill: Could the Minister give me some idea, when a program goes out like that and it is a new program and it is an optional program and school divisions can decide whether or not to use it, is the decision a school division's decision or is it an individual teacher's decision, as the first question, and the second question is, what are you doing to follow up?

How do you follow up then to find out how good the curriculum is, how it is being used, what deficiencies or problems it has and what improvements should be made? Mr. Derkach: In terms of the implementation of the program, it is entirely up to the school and the teacher as to whether or not they will incorporate this within the program if it is an optional program. With regard to this particular aspect, the social studies assessment will cover some evaluation of the program in that there will be some questions asked with regard to this particular portion. Ms.

Hemphill: Just in another area but along the same line, could the Minister give us some indication of how many school divisions are using the optional unit in the Family Life Program, the sex education unit? Is this a school division policy or an individual school policy, and how many school divisions in our province are now utilizing it? Mr. Derkach: There are 450 schools presently using the optional

section of the Family Life Program, and 33 school divisions have now incorporated it into their program. Ms. Hemphill: Does the Minister have any plans in the near future of making it mandatory and, if not, why 2831 not?

I would wonder, I think when you bring in a new program like that initially and it is very sensitive, teachers are not prepared to handle it, may need training, may not have enough qualified staff to handle it in a short period of time, that it is a program that needs time for implementation and for people to adjust to it, but at some point I think you have to make the decision of whether or not you think all the children in Manitoba of those ages are entitled to receive that information, and, having given them a reasonable period of time to prepare themselves, require it.

Do you have any intentions of doing that and, if not, why not? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I have no intentions of making it mandatory at this time, and I think by and large we have to respect the fact that parents have some say in the education of their children and certainly it would be moving in an opposite direction if we, in fact, imposed this on the children and said to parents that you have no say in this matter and your child "must" take the program.

I think it is important that parents be involved and certainly we feel that by using an optional approach more schools, in fact, and more students will eventually become involved and will want to take it, and that is an approach that I favour. I, at this time, do not have any intentions of moving in a direction which would make this a mandatory program in the schools. Ms. Hemphill: Mr. Chairperson, to the Min ister. I quite agree with all of his principles and all of his goals, but not his conclusions.

I agree with choice, parents being involved and parents having choice and no child or no parents being obligated to have their children take the program if they do not want to. But you do not have the choice if the program is not available, and the freedom is in the right to opt out; in other words, any school that has the program, that has parents who do not want to participate, all the parents have to do is say they do not want their children to participate. But, on the other hand, if parents do want it and the program is not being offered, then they in fact are not being given the choice.

So I am wondering how the Minister feels, since he supports choice for parents in this matter, about those parents who would want their children to have the program, but do not have the option because the school division is not providing it. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I think, as an education process in Manitoba, we have to allow parents and school divisions some autonomy, in some instances, and this is one of those programs I think that we have to be very careful and very cognizant that there are differences, community and individual differences, throughout our province which have to be respected.

That is why parents elect school board officials to school boards, because they are representat ives of the commun ity. If a commun ity, or if a group of parents want to have a program which is available offered to their students, certainly it is their responsibility then to approach those people who have the responsibility in the community to make those decisions and ensure that program is offered.

-- ··---�--- Monday, November 7, 1988 But I have to reiterate, once again, Mr. Chairman, that at this point in time I do not favour moving toward a mandatory system whereby we are going to impose on each and every student in each and every school to have this particular program taught.

I must say we are always in a changing society today and so therefore I qualify that statement by saying that is the position at this time and when further evidence comes that indicates perhaps that there should be a change, I am not going to have a closed mind to it at all, but at this point in time I favour making the choices available to school divisions and to parents. Ms. Hemphill: Mr. Chairperson, just one other area. I am wondering if the Minister can tell us what the status is, if any, of the integration of some of the courses in the high school curriculum between the 00 and the 01? Mr.

Derkach: I think there was a move a few years ago and I remember bringing this very same point to- 1 think the Member for Logan was Minister at that time, as to the move towards a unitary type of language arts program in the high school area. My understanding is that in fact even in the term of her being Minister, that was a move that was initiated at that time and is still prevalent. There is a difference in terms of the 300 and 301, in the content, in that the 300 course would be more of an analytical kind of program

whereas the 30 1 program would be a more practical approach to the language. But in terms of the course, it is basically the unitary. Just if I may at this time, Mr. Chairman, go back to the number of school divisions that are offering the Family Life Program. I said 33 were. The correct number is 37, have implemented the program. There are 12 school divisions across the province that are now considering the program and will be hopefully implementing it in the near future. * (15 30) Ms. Hemphill: Those are pretty good figures.

Just to see if I understand the answer to the last ques tion, does that mean that there is not any integration between 00 and 01 in language arts? Did we scrap it because people were having a problem with it or does it still exist? Mr. Derkach: No. I guess the objective of the language arts program is to ensure that both 30 1 and 300 students have a good knowledge and a good basis of the English language and of the reading, writing comprehension and so forth. However, the expectations perhaps of the 300 as opposed to the 301 would be somewhat different.

Perhaps the activities, in terms of what we expect of the student who is going to get a 300 standing would be somewhat different than of the one who would be taking the 301 program. Ms.

Hemphill: Just to get at one of the reasons that there were recommendations in the department to look at that was the concern that has been going on for a while, that when we are streaming kids into 00 and 01, that they in fact rise to the level of the expectation of the program that they have been put into; and that the original idea, which was that there could be a lot of movement between the two streams and that there would be nothing to stop somebody who had been put into 00 from climbing up and going into 01 never became a reality.

The concern is that some kids, for any number of reasons, and we know how easy it is to label kids and how easy it is to label them inaccurately, may be put into a program below their capability or the level that they are achieving at that given time can be sort of doomed forevermore to achieving at that level which rules out all sorts of opportunities down the road in terms of higher academic training. Are there st ill concerns about that? How are we trying to deal with them so limitations are not put on kids that are not real and should not be there? Mr.

Derkach: There are no concerns or limitations in terms of allowing students to move upward. As a matter of fact, it is far easier for a student who is in a 30 1 program to move upward and to be able to gain that 300 credit today, I sup pose than it was several years ago. lt is easier for that student to move upward than it is for the 300 to take a second credit. Ms. Hemphill: Is the Minister telling us then that there is movement from between the two streams that children put into 00 are moving into 01? Mr. Derkach: I think the Member is asking from 01 to 00? Yes, that is correct. Mrs.

Yeo: Just in response to a statement made by the Minister to the Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Charles), we have searched through the list on the workshop seminars, etc., and the only thing we could find with regard to women was a title "Women in Trades." Now I assume that this is not affirmative action. Also, in light of the fact that other material that was provided to us show that despite the fact that there are 557 more females than males in full and part-time positions, I think it is under Professional School Personnel, that there are still, assistant superintendents, 85.4 percent of them are male.

Directors, down here, department head for directors, not department heads, directors, 77.2 percent are male. What is this one here? Superintendents, 92 percent are male; vice-principals, 75 percent males; despite the fact that there are quite a few more females than males. So I do not know if the Minister can point out to me where the affirmative action aspect is und er the workshops and seminars presented but, as I said, we respectfully suggest that we could not find it. Mr.

Derkach: Just to give the Member some indication, we are just looking for that information right now, but some of the workshops that have been held or are being held, one is entitled "Math -Who Needs lt?" and that is in the affirmative action for women; "Science for Girls" is another and then there is a conference at the University of Winnipeg as well. 2832

Monday, November 7, 1988 In terms of the hiring of women in the various occupations or in the various positions in education, first of all, it must be mentioned that school divisions have the responsibility for their own hirings so therefore the department cannot get physically involved in who they hire for their principals or vice-principals or so forth. I think there are some inherent problems in school divisions with women taking on responsibilities of principalships and superintendencies.

I kno w that when I was teaching in school, women would leave their profession to raise a family and certainly an interrupted career like that has its own problems in that person being able to come back and all of a sudden fit into a principalship. Sometimes these principalships do not come along that quickly as well, as the Member kno ws, especially in rural Manitoba. With regard to the department, I think we are trying to do everything we can, in the short time while we have been in Government, to ensure that in fact we do embark on an affirmative action kind of program.

I might say that we have, for the first time, the chairman of the Board of Reference is a woman. The vice chairperson of the Public Schools' Finance Board is a woman. We are endeavouring to ensure that there is good representation of women on all our boards, and in addition, the other affirmative action groups as well. Certainly, we are cognizant of it and I guess I can assure the Member that when we do our Estimates next year certainly those num bers, at least on the boards and commissions, will be better represented of affirmative action groups than they are today. Mrs.

Yeo: Maybe even the Minister of Education might be represented by an affirmative action group. Mr. Derkach: I do not intend to have a sex change, Mr. Chairman. Mrs. Yeo: Now I have lost my train of thought. Mr. Derkach: You should have. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? The Honourable Minister. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I can provide a little more information on these workshops. On the workshops that are being proposed, one in Career Development, there is one in Women and Science, and also the Multiculturalism workshop. There is one being planned which will take in a variety of areas, the northern, the St.

Vital and the Morris-MacDonald area. Hopefully those will, at least be a stab at affirmative action. Mrs. Yeo: I am aware that the deadline for applicants for the Deputy Minister's position was, I believe, October 24. I wonder if I might ask if there were any women applicants. Mr. Derkach: I am sure there were, Mr. Chairman, but I have not seen the list yet, so therefore I cannot answer that. * (15 40) 2833 Mrs. Charles: Just to once more time try this again. Are there planned any in-services on the discussion of the topic of role models as portrayed in the curriculum of the educational system in Manitoba? Mr .

Derkach: This is not a new concept. Anybody in the education field will know that through the Manitoba Teachers' Society and through the department there have been a series of workshops throughout the province for the last number of years on this specific concept. Mr. Chairman: 4.(b)(1) -p ass. Item 4.(b)(2), Other Expenditures, $1 ,19 5,700-the Member for Sturgeon Creek. Mrs. Yeo: I just have, I think, one question. For this whole area I notice that the total amount is down. The total Other Expenditures is down and the statement at the bottom of the page concerns me.

I am wondering if there is a reduction in the number of committee meetings, the number of times the committees get together. Is this going to retard the evaluation of the curricula in any way? Mr. Derkach: No, there are no cuts anticipated this year and certainly it is not affecting the work of the committees. Mrs. Yeo: Just to follow up on that. lt is felt then, I gather from that statement, that even though there is a reduction in the num ber of committee meetings, that the work can be carried out effectively and the evaluation will not be hindered in any way, shape or form? Mr.

Derkach: Most of the development work has already been done, so therefore we have steering comm ittees in place now that are looking at the implementation, which does not require the intensity of meetings that were held before. That is why there is a reduction in that particular area. Mr. Ch airman: 4.(b )(2)- pass. Item 4. (

c) Native Education:

(1) Salaries, $531, 600-the Member for Sturgeon Creek. Mrs. Yeo: Mr. Chairperson, in this area is there a good deal of cooperation between this

section and the Curriculum Development and Implementation

section so that the appropriate materials can be included in standard curriculum which create a very positive need of awareness? Mr. Derkach: Yes, there is a lot of positive cooperation between those two branches. Also I might indicate that there is a good working relationship between the Inner City Branch, the Regional Services Branch as well. So certainly, it is not a branch that works independently. There is a good working cooperation between other branches. Mrs. Yeo: Well, I am pleased to hear that it is not an island unto itself, that there is a lot of communic ation and liaison. I am wondering too, if the term "Native"

Monday, November 7, 1988 includes Metis, or is there a coordinator department or whatever with BEF. Mr. Derkach: No, the "Native" does include Metis as well. Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): I wonder if the Minister could indicate who is currently director of the Native Education Branch. Mr. Derkach: The acting director is Dianne Cooley. Mr. Storie: Is the Minister currently looking for a permanent director or what is the status of that position? Mr.

Derkach: The position is an acting position at the present time and the department will be reviewing this whole area in the next while, and certainly will be embarking either on a full-time director or perhaps the acting director may become a full-time director. That decision has not been made at this time. Mr. Storie: The Minister is indicating that he may be reviewing this matter. Is he talking about reviewing the acting status of the position, or is he reviewing the branch or the position itself, or what specifically is the Minister- Mr. Derkach: Both. Mr.

Storie: Then from that can the Minister indicate whether he has any concerns with the approach that has been taken by this branch? What creates the necessity for a review in the Minister's mind? Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I have no concerns with the branch per se, but certainly this is a new Government and before we fill positions indiscriminately we want to take a look at the branch and the way it is structured and satisfy ourselves that it is the best way of approaching the needs, and also have an opportunity at that time to explore whether or not we can better meet the needs of Native people or of any branch that we are examining. Mr.

Storie: I think that we are heartened to know that the Minister is interested in improving, developing the services this branch provides because it is an important area, and certainly to a large number of students in a significant portion of Manitoba. I am wondering whether the Minister could indicate whether there is any current supp ort from the Department of Education, either through this branch or otherwise, to the development of Metis education in the province. Mr. Derkach: I have to say, yes, there is consideration given by this department to the support of Metis education.

I have met with the Manitoba Metis Federation. On one occasion I have also met with the group that is organizing a conference on "Metis people in Education"-! think is the right title-and certainly we are going to be supporting the education conference that is coming up on the 17 th and 18th of this month, I believe, and yes, we are interested in ensuring that Metis people in Manitoba have their rightful place in the history of this province. Mr. Storie: Could the Minister indicate whether there continues to be a grant to support the work of a Metis education coordinator within the Manitoba Metis Federation? Mr.

Derkach: The funding for that coordinator came to an end, I believe at the end of August, August 31, and we have not continued that funding to date. However, as the Member probably knows, the Manitoba Metis Federation did approach me with regard to funding the Louis Riel Institute and providing some support in that regard. The decision on that has not been made yet and therefore when we consider the overall funding, of course, that will include this particular position as well then as an overall core funding area. Mr.

Storie: So if I understand the Minis ter correctly, the decision has been made to cut the funding to the only pers on, in effect, who was specializing in development of and support of Metis educational aims and objectives and has not made a decision to support in a financial way the Riel Institute. * (16 50) Mr. Derkach: lt is not a simple matter of saying yes, we are going to support this particular position and then later try to rationalize it or try to duplicate funding when you are addressing the funding of the Louis Riel Institute or the Manitoba Metis Federation per se.

When we were given the presentation, Mr. Chairman, I think what was required was some time to examine how our approach to funding of Metis people in Manitoba, and part of that is not only the funding of the Louis Riel Institute and the Manitoba Metis Federation, but also our approach to funding the Metis Conference on Education. I think that instead of trying to approach it on a piecemeal basis, we want to take a look at the overall aspect of Metis people in Manitoba and ensure that we are doing the correct thing in a funding aspect. Mr.

Storie: If memory serves correctly, the support that was provided from the department to the Metis Educ ation Conference was somewhere in the neighbourhood of $10 ,000 in previous years. In addition, some $48,000 I believe was used to support the education coordinator. I am wondering whether the Minister could indicate whether that amount is likely to be reduced through this exercise or are we actually going to see additional support going into the area of developing the aspirations of Metis people. Mr. Derkach: That is a very hypothetical question.

As I indicated, we are going to be supporting the Metis Education Conference that is coming up and that will be suppor ted in the same way that it was last year. With regard to the overall funding, that decision has not been made yet and I am not going sit here and speculate on how far we are going to go or what approach we are going to take. I just can tell the 2834

Monday, November 7, 1988 Mem ber for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie) that we are approaching this in a positive light and certainly our intent is to do everything we can as a department to ensure that the proper approach is taken in terms of the funding or the support for Metis education in Manitoba. Mr. Storie: We are in the Estimates of the Department of Education. I thought one of the most appropriate questions would be to ask directly how much the province intends to spend to support the activities of those interested in the development of Metis education?

The Minister can say well we have not made that determination. I guess it is rather late in the year to have a group still considering, still uncertain as to what amount of money they may expect and what objectives they may be able to meet as a result of funding arrangements with the province. Can the Minister not indicate are they going to get something? Are they going to get half of it? Are there any major concerns with the objectives that the Metis Federation set up for the education coordinator? Mr.

Derkach: As I indicated to the Member for Flin Flon, we will be supp orting the Metis Education Conference to the same level as we supported it last year. With regard to the other issue, and that is the Louis Riel In stitute and the funding for the educational institution, I think the Member should know that we support Metis education and that this issue itself is not one that is simply addressed by the department in a single way. The approach to support is going to be one that is federal. Also the Department of Northern and Ind ian Affairs is in volved in that, along with the Department of Education.

I have met with the MMF maybe three weeks ago, at most I guess, and certainly we have not had the opportunity or the time to be able to meet with the federal people, the representatives, and the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs for Manitoba to discuss this in full detail. Once that happens though, certainly we will be in a better position to make a decision. Mr. Storie: I am moving along to another issue. I am wondering whether the Native Education Branch is still providing significant support to both band operated and Department of Indian and Northern Affairs operated schools in the province. Mr.

Derkach: I guess the area that is most sign ificant is the fact that the Department of Indian Affairs and band operated schools are in vited to send their representatives to our regional in-services that are organized in the provincial school divisions. Also, all Department of Indian Affairs and band operated schools receive initial copies of new provincial curricula and we do not charge them for that but additional copies must be purchased from the Text Book Bureau. I might also add that the department does provide in-services when they are requested by the band schools. Mr.

Storie: I am wondering whether the Minister has followed up on concerns that were raised by the 2835 previous Min isters of Education with the federal Government, and that is the impact of the devolution of previously supported activities by the Department of Indian Affairs to band controlled schools that have subsequently fallen in the lap of the provincial Government. If I recall, I directed a letter to Mr.

McKnight almost two years ago, with respect to the funding that the province was utilizing to support the objectives of Indian education on reserve and in the urban centres, that should rightly have been the responsibility of the federal Government. I am wondering if he has this issue raised with him. Is he aware of the offloading that is occurring? Has he addressed it with his federal colleagues? Mr. Derkach: I guess all of our problems are not resolved with regard to this area.

Certainly there has been some good progress made in the province in that discussions and meetings have gone on with officials within the province and some of the issues have been resolved. But certainly we cannot boast that we have resolved all of the issues that are outstanding. I can say that although the branch does provide and handle in-services, it cannot begin to address all their requests, and there is a cost recovery for that. So certainly the issue is an important one that has to be addressed. Officials are dealing with it at the official level.

Also the Canadian Council of Ministers has addressed this issue with regard to cost sharing and responsibility. So it is an ongoing situation, and I guess we cannot claim that we are totally satisfied that the situation is resolved. * (16 00) Mr. Storie: Just so the Minister, who may not have had the same kind of experiences I have had or had an opportunity to meet with the groups that I have met with over the years. But to put it in perspective, Frontier School Division spends approximately $7,000 per pupil in Manitoba. The Department of Indian Affairs spends more like $2,700.00.

If you can imagine the difference between the quality of education that can be provided to Native students with those two discrepant num bers, you might have an idea of the dilemma that a lot of band control in the Department of Indi an Affairs controlled schools we have in the province.

The difference between the quality of education that is being provided in two commun ities, where one is band controlled and the other is provincially controlled is astounding, in some cases frightening, making it clear that this is no reflection on the personnel that work in the Department of Indian Affairs schools or the administrations, whether they are from the department or band control. lt reflects the fact that they get sign ificantly fewer dollars to deal with the same number or more problems than the average, Frontier School. lt is a major issue, as far as I am concerned, that the province is continually being requested to provide support to band controlled schools, and Indian Affairs schools, both in in servicing and curric ulum development by way of special needs services.

I know this Minister may not be as likely as some other previous

Monday, November 7, 1988 Ministers to attack the federal Government, to object to the offloading of services onto the Province of Manitoba. But I think that it requires some action on his part, not only because the taxpayers of the province may be picking up financial responsibilities of the federal Government, but because un less the province voices its concern, I think the problem is going to deteriorate.

The new funding structure for reserves, both in terms of capital and operating that are being put in place, make it more obvious all the time that these groups are going to be less and less able to deal with the imp rovement that is required in their educational sys tem. Now the Minis ter may feel that it is not his responsibility.

I recognize that it is not directly, but the problem is that we are being requested, if not required, to assist in some cases. lt is very difficult as a professional teacher, as a professional in the Department of Education to know that there is a crying need with respect to a school, or a school's development educational need, and not respond. In the past, they have been quite generous and I think with the consent of various Ministers of Education.

But I would certainly encourage him on behalf of the 30,000 to 40,000 students that are currently under the jurisdiction of the Department of Indian Affairs federally and band controlled schools, to make the argument with the federal Government that they need additional support, that the amount of money that is being spent per student is simply not adequate in 19 88. To give you an example, the Federal Government recently implemented a new Special Needs Funding Program. They provided $300,000 for the province, for the region.

That amount is so inadequate it is barely describable when you consider the money that is spent by the province to support special needs students. Anything that this Min ister can do to encourage a healthier attitude towards education in our remote communit ies and our reserve communities I think is something that he should do and, to the extent that he spends time on it, would be time well-spent. I am wondering if the Minister has actually met with the Minister of Indian Affairs and expressed his concern about these issues. Has he written a letter?

Has he informed himself of the current deteriorating situation on some of our reserve schools? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I guess the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) says that I am not as apt as other Ministers were to attack the Federal Government, and he is quite right. We do not use that particular tactic and I am not about to attack any federal Government or any federal Minister as he would maybe be inclined to do. Rather, Mr.

Chairman, we have been discussing this particular issue, which is an important issue with the federal Government with federal officials, and certainly through the Canadian Council of Education Ministers there has been-and when I was chairman of the council I might add, Mr. Chairman, that we initiated an intention to meet with the federal Minister. And I understand that under the new chairman, who is Mrs. McLeod from Ontario, that meeting will take place and I guess it will take place after the election on November 21. But, Mr.

Chairman, we un derstand and recognize the problems that are prevalent in especially the Special Needs area with regard to support to the Natives of Manitoba. But as the Member well knows, this is an area of federal jurisdiction and we are not washing our hands of it. I just can reiterate the fact that the officials from my department are continually working and pushing to ensure that those band operated schools are receiving the attention so that those students can get a fair opportunity for education in the province. Mr. Storie: I appreciate the Minister's comments, Mr. Chairperson.

I would indicate that "attack" may not be the right word. lt was an inappropriate use of the word. lt certainly felt that sometimes that was the approach that was required to get attention from the federal Government to address some of those issues. I cannot say that I or other Ministers have been extremely successful to date.

I make the point that the situation is deteriorating and the gap between what the province is spen ding and what the federal Government is spe nding is the widening and the arrangements that are currently being made to fund social services, including education on reserves, is almost certainly destined to increase that discrepancy further. lt is a concern. On the other side of the coin is the question of what is being done in the Inner City to support not only Indian and Metis children who live there but those who are currently relocating from remote communities to the City of Winnipeg.

I am wondering whether the Native Education Branch has anyone particularly focusing on the problems of urban Native students. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, as the Member knows, the Inner City Branch is certainly responsible for this area. In addition, the Native Education Branch is involved there as well. There is a cooperative kind of programming and work that is being done in the Inner City with the Natives that are there and those that are moving in as well. If the Member would want to wait, in (XVI) 4.(j), we cover the Inner City Initiative. We could probably address those questions in a more specific way. Mr.

Storie: I recognize that there is an Inner City Initiative. My question was what specifically is the Native Education Branch doing to support the activities? Is there a particular curriculum being developed? Are we in the process of developing new material for use in the Inner City schools? * (1 610 ) Mr . Derkach: First of all, the branch does support the Inner City area through program development. I can indicate that there is a draft report before me now of Native studies in early years. Also there is one for the senior years and one for middle years. That is for the social studies area.

So in terms of the involvement of the branch, it is specifically through program development. 2836

Monday, November 7, 1988 Mr. Storie: Perhaps the Minister can direct me to which

section he would like to discuss the question of local control. I have got some questions relating to Frontier and some other Inner City questions dealing with that question. Would it be appropriate to discuss the Frontier questions here? Mr. Derkach: I will not know until you ask the question. Ask the question and we will see. Mr. Storie: The first question to the Minister is that several years ago there was a intention to begin to expand the level of control of Frontier local school committees.

It was made clear to Frontier communities that if they wished to broaden the scope of the mandate of the local school committees that they could do so. At present, the school committees do things like approve hiring and establish school policy but, if they wanted to become more intimately involved, they were allowed to do that . Very few communities actually indicated an interest at that time , and I am wondering where that initiative is, whether we have communities interested in becoming more directly involved in the delivery of education. Mr.

Derkach: I have met with the Frontier School Division council or members of the board on one occasion, and I met with Mr. Zong on a couple of occasions now , and certainly they have a desire to be treated like any other school board in the province so that they could have some say in the matters that go on in terms of the Frontier School Division. They recognize their differences as compared to other school divisions and the unique situations that they have in northern Manitoba .

Certainly, there have been meetings with Gillam, Wanipigow and Norway House in terms of community schools as opposed to the band controlled schools. So all of those kinds of situations are being considered, and certainly we have not been able to make any very hard decisions at this time because it does involve a lot of meetings and a lot of discussion . I think that once the House does adjourn and where I have an opportunity as Minister to be able to travel and to be able to have those groups in and discuss these issues, we are certainly going to embark on further discussions and consultations in that regard .

Mr. Storie: Recognizing that Frontier School Board has delegated some of its responsibilities to school committees, I think one of the concerns that I have raised with this Minister before was the question of, I guess, the involvement of the Minister in decisions which have traditionally been left up to local school committees .

The Minister will recall that earlier this fall several of the schools in Frontier School Division, which had adjusted the school day over a period of time to allow for an earlier dismissal in June, complained quite bitterly because the Minister had arbitrarily decided that they would be no longer allowed to continue what had been a practice for some 10 years . I am wondering whether the Minister can indicate what has been the final resolution. The communities obviously were concerned about it and, I believe, set forth a fairly good case to the Minister for maintaining the practice as it had existed .

What is the outcome? Mr. Derkach: I have to tell you with some pleasure that there has been a change in the way that we are approaching the early dismissal in June. That is that the former Government through neglect, I might add, allowed the situation to occur where there was a deterioration, almost an abuse in the way the situation was handled, and there was no meaningful time allotment given to compensating for the time that would be lost when students were dismissed early in the spring.

Because of recognition of the fact, we were able to, along with the Frontier School superintendent and the concurrence of the board, establish a process where those northern schools which have a unique situation where some families move away from the area where the school is located, in those particular communities, they will be allowed to dismiss school early, as they were in previous years . The time will be made up in a minimum of half-hour slots rather than 10 minutes or 15 minutes or whatever the case may have been before.

So there is a consistent approach in that, if they want to make up the time, they will have to make it up in a meaningful amount of time so that students in fact will not lose the number of contact hours they have with instructors and the amount of instructional time that they spend in a school. Mr. Storie: Well, Mr. Chairperson, it has never been made clear to those communities or to Frontier School Division Board, I believe, that in fact that those irregularities were occurring . Certainly, the intention had always been that there would be no deficit in the number of hours that the students attended school. Mr.

Chairperson , we have another example of the Minister's rather arbitrary use of his powers as a Minister in a more recent example. I understand that the Minister has indicated there would have to be a change in practice in Flin Flon where teachers for some years now have been dismissing students early by a number of minutes to accommodate team meeting and school planning during the week . I understand that the Minister has now indicated to them that practice, in his view, is no longer acceptable. Can the Minister comment on where that issue is at? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, I guess the Member knows that within the School Act the Minister does have the responsibility for the school hours in any particular school in the province . Therefore, my entire objective is to ensure that students in fact have as much contact time as is required under The Public Schools Act and is necessary. Now, yes, I found that it was inappropriate to have 15-minute extensions on a school day, because that kind of a request is going to be made right through the province if it is allowed to go from one school to the other. Therefore, there are 11 in-service days.

There are after school hours that teachers can plan their working day and can have their team meetings. For those number of reasons and to ensure that students in fact get the required and the appropriate instructional time, the decision has been made that they will not be able to cut school short by 15 minutes in order to have their team meetings . 2837

Monday, November 7, 1988 Mr. Storie: Well, if that is the Minister's un derstanding of what has happened, I can see why he has erred in his decision- Mr. Derkach: I have not erred. Mr. Storie: -because there was no shortening of the contact time. There was no shortening of the contact time. lt was an adjustment of the lunch hour period to accommodate an extra period where team teachers could get together and plan and where intergrade meetings could be held and schools could plan. The Min ister, it is quite obvious, has arbitrarily interfered in

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-73a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 73a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6c2ad8623cc5f9ead6956f61351026f77b145248

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