Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH 'GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, JUNE 10, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 77

June 10, 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 1727 Page 1 - MW PETITIONS: MR.A. M. DUNPHY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of the Conununity of McKay's. McKay's is located approximately fifteen miles from an area where they will receive the laying of pavement in the very near future. This petition is signed by all of the residents of the Community of McKay's. Actually it accounts for one hundred per cent of the residents. The prayer of the petition reads : "We the undersigned of the Community of McKay's, District of St.

George's, hereby submit our names, strongly urging the government to include the one and one-half miles of road in our community for pavement, along with the announced programmes for Highlands and Maidstone which is approximately fifteen miles distance from our community. Efforts were made with the previous administration to no avail." They desire to have this work done and I am hoping the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications can see his way possibly to add this small bit where paving is already proposed to go. One and one-half miles is not that much actually.

It would mean a great deal to these citizens who live in McKay's. They have been after this for quite some time , Actually I think this is the only request of any consequence that they have ever made since I have been the member for that district. I take pleasure in supporting this petition and asked that it be placed ort the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates . MR. S. A. NEARY.: Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a distinguished honour, Sir, and it is a great pleasure for me on behalf of my colleagues in Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition to be able to support the petition which

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1727 Page 2 I believe is the first from McKay's, in the District of St. George's where one hundred per cent of the people in that co111D1unity, Sir, would like to have a very simple matter like one and one-half miles of road paved. As the honourable member pointed out, it is the first time that these people have ever requested anything from a government, despite the fact that the member who introduced the petition could not resist the temptation to stick a little dart in at the previous Liberal Administration. Sir, we are now in the midst of a federal general election.

I am sure that the people in McKay's will have no problem at all to get Mr. Marshall, their Progressive Conservative Member, to use his influence on the Minister of Transportation and Communications and no doubt within a matter of a few days we will hear an announcement out on the West Coast, Sir, now that the Liberal Party has an excellent candidate out there. Mr. Marshall is running scared. Mr. Jim Campbell, the new Mayor of Stephenville - MR. DUNPHY: The honourable gentleman from Bell Island,who is trying to support this petition, is wandering a long way from the petition and going into elections.

Let me assure the honourable member that this member is quite capable of getting things in his district. He does not have to rely on the opposition. In the past, as the honourable gentleman will recall, when I was successful in getting twenty-five miles of pavement, the Hon. Member for White Bay North was mouthing off and not adding very much to my efforts. I would appreciate it if in the future he would keep out of my affairs. MR. E. M. ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. I have no desire to go into the affairs of the honourable gentleman.

Whatever state his affairs are in is his own problem, not mine and not the Houses. I submit my colleague here is within his rights in attempting to support this petition. He is doing it in a very effective way. If the gentleman from St. George's,whom we are glad to see with us once again, out and around and in the best of health once again - 6998

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1727 Page 3 _MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Speaking of affairs. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Name the honourable gentleman? I would not name the honourable gentleman. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROBERTS: What I am suggesting, Mr. Speaker, is that my cqlleague has the right to be heard, according to the rules of the House. The honourable gentleman from St. George's, if he cannot keep his spleen to himself, he would be well-advised to confine it to his own colleagues. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The Hon.

Member for Bell Island may indeed have the right to rise in support of the petition. I do submit that he was certainly wandering very far afield from the prayer of the petition. If he should wish to continue, then he should be relevant to the prayer of that petition. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I understand it, Mr. Speaker, there will be some road paving done about fifteen miles away this year. They are so close to ~cKay's, Sir, that the people there can almost - MR. DUNPHY: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

If the honourable gentleman is going to rise to support a petition, he can at least pronounce the word, McKay's and not McKi's. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker Anyway, Sir, there it is. I have no doubt, Incidentally .the member made the point himself, Sir, that he could well look after his own district. Well, Sir, if he could, I wonder why the people had to circulate a petition and give it to the honourable member to present here in the House?

Why could he not have gotten in there and fought with the Minister of T~ansportation and CoDDUnications and gotten this road paved and saved the people the inconvenience and the trouble of having to circulate a petition? 6999

June 10, 1974 Tape no, 1727 Page 4 MR. DUNPHY: I think I portrayed to the House - MR. ROBERTS: To a point of ~rder, Sir. Does the honourable gentleman have the right to speak again in this matter? If so, there are a number of us who would like to get into it. MR. SPEAKER: If the Hon. Member for St. George's is not rising on a point of order, he does not have the right to read the petition again. MR. DUNPHY: Point of order, Mr, Speaker. The gentleman was misleading the House,to try to convey to the House that I was not aware of the needs nor wants of McKay's. I certainly was.

I asked the people of McKay's, while attending a meeting there just a few weeks ago, to strengthen our case and to add a petition to the efforts put forward on my behalf. I think I will be successful, MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR, NEARY: MR, SPEAKER: of the petition - MR. NEARY: Mr, Speaker, may I finish my few remarks now? Order please! Mr. Speaker, may I finish my few remarks? The Hon. Member for Bell Island spoke in support Mr. Speaker, I had not finished my remarks. There were so many interruptions, I had not finished. MR. SPEAKER: In the opinion of the Chair the Hon.

Member for Bell Island has concluded his remarks in support of the petition and is not permitted to continue. MR. NEARY: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am just going to ask the honourable House if this is a new technique now in getting things done in one's district. A public meeting is called, suggest to the people at the meeting that they circulate a petition and bring it into the House. Is this how one gets things done now, Sir? MR. DUNPHY: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Would the honourable mel!lber take his seat. 7000

June 10, 1974 Taoe no. 1727 Page 5 MR. SPEAKER: This matter has gone on for quite some time and I sense that it is becoming a debate between members of both sides of the ·honourable House and I suggest that we get on with other business. HON. J. :ROUSSEAU (Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations): May I speak in support of the petition, Mr. Speaker, because I was a former resident of the West Coast and knowing how hard and how diligent iv the Hon. Member for St.

George's has fought for every inch of pavement in his district and all the other things that he has been able to accomplish over there, I know that he needs no assistance in getting these small things that he needs. I would like to stand up 11m,, for somebody who has worked so hard for the wonderful District of St. George's, Ile berates the ministers when they do not come across any time that he requests something for his district. He is so tenacious and vigilant in caring for the needs of his district, I think that this whole House should support such a member in his efforts to upgrade the district. MR.

ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, impelled by the eloquence of the gentleman from Labrador West who said that the Member for St_- George' ~ needed no assistance and then proceeded to give him exactly that no assistance, I too want to say a word or t,.,.- in support of the petition so ably and so originally presented by the gentleman from St. George's. I hope the people of McKay's will get the pavement this year. I suggest to Your Honour and to the House how it can be done. All that has to be done is for the Member for St. George's to announce that the paving will be done and in fact it will be done.

I am glad to see the Minister of Transportation and Collllllunications. in good health and I hope in full voice,with us again. We welcome him back. I have no doubt he will confirm this, Sir, that all is necessary is for the Member for St. George's to make a public announcement on 7001

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1727 Page 6 the radio and television stations and then it happens. The mere fact that the minister may not know anything about it or he may say to the House that he knows nothing about it, is of no regard at all. The Member for St. George's, Sir, - I think credit should be given where credit is due. The Member for St. George's has the ability to know what even the cabinet and what even the Premier do not know,and that is to get the roads paved. I think the people of McKay's should have their road paved.

If they do not get it paved right away, after what we have heard in the House today, it is clearly the responsibility and the fault of the gentleman from St. George's. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. F. STAGG: For the second day in a row I rise in support of the petition so ably presented by the Hon. Member for St. George's. It seems as if he is able to create a great deal of discussion on each petition he presents to the House. I think this is the seventh or eighth one he has presented and on each occasion it has lead to protracted discussion on the merits of the petitions.

I agree with the matters that are set out in the petition. I am going to take a new tack of my own. Since we are in adjoining districts, I am going to ask the Member for St. George's to come down and assist me in drawing up some petitions so I can get some of the pavement of the type he has outlined. MR. SPEAKER: It has been brought to my attention that we have in the galleries today The Hon. Allan Grossman, the Secretary of Resources fo the Province of Ontario. It is a great pleasure for me to welcome the honourable gentleman to the galleries today. I trust that his visit here is 1110st interesting.

ORAL QUESTIONS: _MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. Could the minister tell us whether 7002

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1727 Page 7 he has as yet ( lie or the cabinet - he speaks for the cabinet in this matter) have appointed the Chairman of the Advisory Board,which is provided for, I think, under

Section 35 of the Fishing Industry Collective Bargaining Act? MR. ROUSSEAU: No, the chairman has not been appointed yet. It has been under consideration. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, we have been hearing that answer for the last year and one-half. Could the minister tell us when the consideration is expected to come to an end and when the appointment will be announced? MR. ROUSSEAU: As soon as possible, MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, on a different tac k then with the honourable gentleman: Could he tell yet whether the government are going to introduce the amendments to the Fishing Industry Collective Bargaining Act which they first announced two years ago in the House? MR. ROUSSEAU: all I can say. MR. ROBERTS: That is before government at this time. That is Mr. Speaker, could the minister indicate whether (It has been there for two years.

It has been announced as policy, not by him but by his predecessors in that portfolio who had announced that these amendments •~ould be brought before the House) trey will be brought before the House in this current session? In view of the fact that the price of fish will probably drop and could possibly drop severely, surely there is an urgent need for it now, MR. ROUSSEAU: It is now before cabinet; that I can say and I am sure the honourable memb_er can appreciate that. It is before cabinet, Unti 1 cabinet makes its decision,which I hope will be made im­ minently , for everybody's sake.

I cannot say· anthing further until this time. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may: I do not know whether we will be sitting on Thursday (we may or may not) but may I merely no~e that if we should sit on Thursda~, I shall want to raise this matter. 700J

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1727 Page 8 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I just wonder if I could ask a supplementary question arising from the questions by my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition. Would the minister indicate if the regulations that have to be drawn up under this act are drawn up and ready to be implemented? MR. ROUSSEAU: Once the amendment is made or the amendment which is now under consideration is made, what we said in the original instance is that the act gives no power to the Fishing Industry Advisory Board. It is a paper tiger.

It has no right to look into books to try to find the information it needs in order to give an indication to the minister what the price of fish should be. Until these amendments are brought in, in effect, then the Fishing Industry Advisory Board has no power whatsoever to be able to find out the information needed in order to establish itself. MR. NEARY: even drafted yet. MR. ROUSSEAU: understand it. In other words, the regulations are not The regulations would not be necessary, as I The amendment to the act would do it.

Lt is an amendment which would give the Fishing Industry Advisory Board the abilities of the Public Enquiries Commissioners, under the Public Enquiries Act. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have so many questions I do not know where to start. I will start with my colleague, my friend, the Minister of Transportation and Communications. I gave the minister advance notice of this question, Sir. I would like to welcome him back to the House, Sir. I trust that he is in good health, feeling better after his surgery.

I would like to ask the minister if he would inform the House if there is going to be any road paving done on Bell Island this prese~t summer? BON. T. V. HICKEY (Minister of Transportation and Communications): Mr. Speaker, there is approximately one mile of paving to be done on Bell Island. I not sure exactly which one it is. There are a couple of small projects 7004

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1727 Page 9 which were , included or at least ones which we hope to get done. One of them is included in a tender which has been called, I believe, or in the process of being called. I am afraid I cannot give my friend any more detail than that because I just got back today and my deputy minister and assistant deputy minister are in Quebec City for meetings. Until they come back, 1 do not have any further details. I can confirm that there is one mile, I believe, of pavement and it is to be included in another project. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker: Would the minister undertake to get me some more details about that one mile of paving? Could he tell me whether it is going to be Middleton Avenue, the East Track or Scotia No. I, the Green or the East End? In what part of the island is this paving going to be done? the road or what roads are going to be paved? What is the name of MR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: I will. Okay, Sir. Now, Mr. Sl)eaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Public Works what is going on down in the old Daily News Building, down there on Duckworth Street? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: The minister does not know?

Well, perhaps the Minister of Justice could tell us. Has that building been taken over by the government? Is it being renovated by the Oepartment of Public Works? Is it getting ready for the appeal court? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: The minister does not know what is going on? My understanding is by t~e Provincial Department of Public Works. Mr. Harold Duffett owns the building,in case the honourable gentleman is interested. AN HON. MEMBER: 'MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. NEARY: the building. (Inaudible). I will check it out. It is the minister's department that is renovating 7005

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1727 Page 10. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Find out if they have i t rented and what they are doing with it. What is it going co be used for? Seeing m.y friend here today, Sir, the Minister of Industrial Development, who is so cocky and so lippy, can t_he minister tell us if it is true or false that the subcontractors in Churchill Falls are being given forty-eight hours to clear out and take their equipment out of Churchill Falls? HON. W. DOODY (Minister of Industrial Development): That sounds like a very silly question. I do not really know if there have been . I suspect, 708J

June 1(1, 1974 Tape No. 1728 NM - 1 certainly hope that they have not been. It sounds like a kind of a feat that we were used to under a previous administration. It is certainly not the policy of this government. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, supplementary. ls the minister aware that workers that were recalled by these subcontractors in Churchill Falls were sent back home l There is no work there for them and they were told that they were given instructions by the government to get ready to move out of Churchill Falls. ~~DOODY: Is that a question? MR. NEARY: Yes, that is a question. Is the minister aware of that?

I asked him in the beginning. MR • DOODY : No . MR. NEARY: It is not true. MR. OOODY: I am not aware. MR. NEARY: Not aware. Would the minister undertake to find out if it ----- is correct or not? MR. _QOODY:_ Yes, I will undertake, Sir. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the minister there behind my friend there, the Minister of Municioal Affairs and Housing, would the minister tell us what he has done ahout the request for special assistance from the Town of Wabana to maintain essential services and extend water and sewer lines on Bell Island? What is being done about that? ~- EARLE: Mr.

Speaker, sometime ago the minister asked somewhat a similar question. The affairs of Bell Island are being gone over very closely by officials in my department, trying to come to some satisfactory arrangement whereby the council can be enabled to do essential works. At the moment they have not yet completed their study. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, supplementary: Hould the m:lnister irirlicate when he expects the study, the Doane Report I think it is, to be completed and submitted to the minister? The council is threatening to resign. I saw a newsletter the other day they put out. MR. EARLE: Mr.

Speaker, in due course. MR. NEARY: Everythi~ with this government is due course, Sir. 100·1

June 10, 1974 Tape No. 1728 NM - 2 I wonder, Sir, the Minister of Fisheries is back in his seat and I am asking him this question on behalf of my colleague who is attending the opening of the fish market over there on the southside today - MR. DOODY: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: The minister was invited. Why did he not go over to the opening? He might have gotten a codfish. I know they have been codding the minister long enough, he might have gotten a cod if he went over there todav. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Order please! 'IR.

NEARY: Sir, I want to find out from the Minister of Fisheries just what his government is going to do, forget this passing the buck to Ottawa, what is the province going to do to help the fishermen in Newfoundland and Labrador, I assume who cannot start fishing yet because of the ice conditions, especially along the northeast coast. Would the minister indicate what the province is going to do? Forget sending telegrams to Ottawa. MR. DOODY: Why? MR. NEARY: Because it is a provincial matter. I want to know what the provincial government is going to do about it. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: No, but assistance, ls there going to be any special assistance for these fishermen, ~oart from welfarel Will the storm troopers be sent in by the Minister of Social Services when they apply for social assistance? Is the minister going to answeF? MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have been trying to find some people during the last few days to give me advice on how we can improve the weather and how we can get the ice moving off the northeast coast of Labrador and the northwest coast and I have been unable to find anyone.

I checked all parties, including the Liberal Party and the NDP and Social Credit and others.and all of them came up with a blank. Now that does not mean there is not a real problem existing with regard to the fishermen who were unable to get their nets in the water and be able to earn some income. I would remind the honourable member that last year we had a similar occurrence and after a 7008

June 10, 1974 Tape No. 1728 NM - 3 lot of pressure was brought to bear on the Minister of the Environment, they have not got the good manners in Ottawa to have a Minister of Fisheries, after bringing a lot of pressure to bear on the Minister of the Environment,and the Premier on the Prime Minister of Canada, we eventually convinced the authorities in Ottawa that they did have a responsibility in terms of fishermen whose unemployment insurance benefits had terminated in mid April and May, to come up with an emergency programme for compensating fishermen for lost time, the time lost between termination of their unemployment insurance benefits and the time when they could get their nets in the water and obtain some income.

They did come up with a programme. To rive them all credit. they did come up with a programme,which was not administered properly but that is not my faultnor anyone here; that is their problem. I have been in touch with the Minister of the Environment, the honourable Jack Davis. The Premier has wired Mr.

Trudeau and if we can believe all of the utterances from those people during the campair,n now, they are genuinely interested in the welfare of the fishermen of Newfoundland. tie have said to them that in view of the fact that they have not come up with a proper income support programme and in view of the fact that the unemployment insurance benefits have terminated because of legislation and the repulations and so on and so forth, that they introduce an emergency financial programme to take care of the fishermen until such time as they can get their nets in the water.

Now the honourable member for Fogo he wired me a few days ago saying that the province had a responsibility. Pe <lo have some responsibilities but the real responsibility here, Mr. Spe!'Iker. is 1,.i. t h the federal government because the unemployment insurance regulations as they are now discriminate against the fishermen of Newfoundland. Before the elections started, Mr.

Davis was in the province, I met with him, I am sure the honourable members met with him, the honourable member for White Bay South, I met him going in when I was coming out, and there was every indication that an income support programme was going to be introduced. It has not been introduced and until that is done then the responsibility rests 7009

June 10, 1974 Tape No. 1728 NM - 4 with the federal government to come up with an income support programme to support the fishermen who through no fault of their own cannot get their nets in the water to make some money. MR. MARTIN: Supplementary to that one, Mr.

Speaker, , i nee the honourable minister has indicated that the action taken by the federal government last year had some imput from the provincial people, I wonder if he could tell us whether or not in this year's pror.ramme which they are trying to get through, whether the fishermen on the Labrador Coast will be treated equally with the fishermen on the ~ewfoundlan<l Coast, since they were deliberately left out last year. "ffi._C0LLINS: ·~r. Speaker, there is no reason why we should discriminate against the Labrador fishermen.

The situation might be a little bit different there in that normally speakinp. the Labrador fishermen might not be getting their gear in the water so quicklv as fishermen on the east coast. But whatever the facts are, the main thinp which has got to be corrected is the discriminatory aspects of the l'nerr.ployment Insurance regulations. Last year,as I said, the federal governemnt came up with an emergency programme which was not properly administrated because had it been properly administrated the fishermen would have received much more money than they did.

They <lid not have the wherewithal or the intestinal fortitude to carry through and do thin8S like they should have been done,because the compensation should have been made available to the fishermen whose unemployment insurance benefits had ter~inated in April or May. They are the only people who should have benefitted from it, the real fisherman whose unemployment insurance benefits had terminated.

Instead they made the thing available just about on a universal basis and where fishermen should have received maybe $700 or S800 or $900 or $1,000, it ended up that the $2 million that was allocated was divided in so many ways that nobody 11:ot anything out of it. What we are suggesting to the federal government now and we did then is that they look at the unemployment insurance records. It is all available on computer punch- out~, to find out what fishermen in Newfoundland, I hate to say Newfoundland and Labrador hut I will say it for this purpose, all fishermen whose 7010

June 10, 1974 Tape No. 1728 NM - 5 unemployment insurance benefits have terminated, they were the only people to have been compensated to have benefitted from the emergency funds which were made available. I hope that they will do that this year and that the real fishermen will b~ the main beneficiary. MR. ROUSSEAU: I will answer that questions which was a shock at the time it was mentioned I know, I just checked it out and actually we aTe lookin11; into it, which I knew was the case . 11,er : 1 -s nn worK r;eing · aone.

It is an on~oing thin~. ',, hen a 11overnment department ref!uests space we look in the various areas where space mi11;ht be available. There is certainly no work goinp. on and negotiations have not in any way as yet been finalized but we are certainly considering that as a possible site for a government department that has requested it. MR. NEA~'l'..:. Could the minister indicate what government department has requested sp~ce down there in the old Daily News building? MR. ROUSSEAU: The Department of Justice. MR. NEARY: ~r.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Justice could indicate why his department requested the Department of Public Works to rent that space. Was it for the Appeals Court? Is it to take the over­ flow from the Supreme Court and start new offices? Why has the minister requested this office space? MR. J!.ICKMAN1 Minister of Justice: Mr.

Speaker, a few weeks ago lep.islation was passed by this House authorizing the setting up of a Court of Appeals and it may be many months yet before the Government of Canada sees fit to introduce the necessary legislation into Parliament to amend the Jud11;es Act to provide for the appointment thereto. But it is incumbent upon the province to provide the facility to accommodate any courts in the province. The present building that is now used by the Supreme Court of Newfoundland and by the Ma11;istrate's Court and the Family Court is filled to capacity.

We looked at the building that is presently occupied by the two district courts and received a rough estimate that the cost of renovating it would be $.5 million and we thereupon asked the Department of Public Works if they would try and find a building 7011

June 10, 1974 Tape No. 1728 NM - 6 reasonatly close to the law library which is situated in the main c,nurt iwu se building, to accmmnodate the Court of Appeal. I do hope my colleague, the Minister of Public Works and Services.and his officials will succeed in finding a building and findin!! an owner thereof who will be prepared to do the renovations to comply with our requirements and specifications. Thank you for asking me this question. '1R. NEARY: ~r. Speaker, the minister has the cart before the horse in this case. I think maybe he is expecting Mr.

Stanfield to be elected and then the minister will be the new judge of the Court of Appeals, ~ir, I wonder,seeing the Minister of Fir.ance over there is anxious to have a few works today, I notice he J-as the Union Jack draped around him today, Sir. I would like to see the Union Jack draped around him but in a pine box, not around his neck.

Sir, I wonder if the minister could tell us,now that he has admitted, now that the minister had admitted that the eight per cent sales tax on manufactured homes, that is on labour and material and so forth, now that the minister has admitted the eight per cent sales tax is unfair, what does the minister intend to do about it? There was a sur,i?estion of mine made in this House about three weeks ago. MR. CROSBIE, Minister of Finance: Mr. Speaker, that is not a question, as I have not admitted that any tax is unfair.

What I have said is that the fact that the sales tax is imposed on mobile homes, well these are not mobile homes, they are mobile for a while and then they put in the foundation, the sales tax is collected. We are looking at the situation to see whether there are any changes to be made so that the sales tax only applies to building materials in the home. So that matter is being looked into. However, it is not something new. MR. NEARY: lt is not something new, Mr. Speaker, I raised it three weeks or a month ago in this House.

Sir, I wonder if the Minister of Transportation and Connnunications could tell us, Sir, what is happening in connection with the harbour arterial road . Is there anything new on that white elephant over there? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I will have to takp that question under advisement. 7012

June 10, 1974 Tape No, 1728 NM - 7 As I have told the honourable gentleman.I have just gotten back and I have not had a chance to meet with my officials so I am not up to date on what the status of that project is hut I wi 11 unclertake to get the information for him. MR. NEARY: Sir, we are not dragging much information out of him today. I wonder if the Premier could tell us what the government's position is on wage and price controls. What is the provincial governemnt's position on wage and price controls? MR. P«>ORES: Mr. Speaker, that is a question that should be asked in the House of Commons.

I strongly recommend the member for Bell Island have a go at that, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would if I thought it would do any good, Sir, is the Premier aware that wage and price controls can also be a provincial responsibility and are? MR. :t,!OORE!';: No. MR, NEARY: The Premier is not aware of that. The Premier does not have the nerve to say he favours Mr. Stanfield's wage and price controls or not. He does not have the nerve. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect for the honourable member for Bell Island, I made a statement on this.

I do not see what it has to do with the urgency or the emergency in the House or relevancy even of the Rouse. MR. NEARY: Mr. Stanfield thinks it is urgent. MR.

MOORES: I have said, Sir, that I think wage and price controls put in for a very short period of time,until policies have been formulated by a federal government that will deal with the factor of the cost of living, that will deal with the factor of this rampant inflation that we have had for several years, that is increasing, that obviously the Liberal Government in Ottawa has absolutely no means or wherewithal to do anything about, they do not know what policies to put in. the policies are obvious by their absence, I would say if we had wa~e and prier controls for a short period of time until proper policies can be 7013

.June 10, 1974. Tape No. 1728 NM - 8 formulated and introduced then yes, Sir, I am in favour of it but only for a very short period of time. MR. NEARY: What does the Minister of Finance think of that statement? -~ - -- fl!} HONOURABLE ME"'IBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I heg your pardon! He does not know what he said. '-W. ~-~OHE : No, and nobody else knows. 'IR. N_F~~::,:_: That is true, Sir. Nobody else knows what the Premier said either. Slr , I wonder if the minister - J\N HrJ~TOURABLE '~MTIER: Inaudible. l~R. SPEAKP.R: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: ------·-- If he should want me to go and ask the Premier that question. If T _iust asked him about Churchill Falls I mip;ht p;et a different answer, like l did the other day. "!R. SPEAKER: l)rder please! "ffi. NE.AJ!Y: I have a note here for the Premier. r want him to read it after. - - ---- Sir, I wonder if the Minister of .Justice could inform the House what his government is doin<'. about proposed increases in this nrovince in automobile insurance? ''II. HTC.K"IAN: !~ell, )Kr.

Sneaker, J cannot tell you what mv ll"OVernrnent is doing but J can tell you what the honourable Premier's p,overnment is doinq. '1R. ROHERTS: The Queen I s Government. !KR. HICKMAN: Well, the 0ueen I s Government. The superintendent of insurance. who is with the Department of Provincial Affairs and the Environment, has been asked co inquire of the industry as to the basis from which they are now seeking to increase or have announced the increase in premiums.

The only information we have been able to receive so far is that this is attributable primarily to the increase in the cost of repairing vehicles that are insured. The no-fault: Does the honourable member want the no-fault? 7014

June 10, 1974. Tape No. 1728 NM - 9 MR. NEARY: Yes. I was going co ask a supplementary question about the no-fault insurance. 'lR. HICKMAN: The position on no-fault, Mr. Speaker: How much time do we have to answer this question? AN HONOURABLl MEMBER: We have a no-fault 1t1inister. ~- HICKMA.~: How much time, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Approximately ten minutes, MR. HICKMAN: I have a ten-minute answer on no-fault insurance. MR. NEARY: No, table it. I can read. I can read. MR.

HICKMAN: In view of the fact chat honourable gentlemen opposite do not wish co have the details of what is going on with respect to no-fault - MR. NEARY: Does the honourable minister havP. the report of the subcommittee of cabinet? "R. HTCK'-!A.~: ~av I simply say that the subcommittee of cabinet has met on several occasions since I last reported to this House. We, together with representatives of the other provinces, excludin!_' the three provinces where they already have a state insurance, have met.

We have told the insurance industry that the submissions they have made co dace with respect to a proposed no-fault insurance scheme are not satisfactory, that they have not given us figures to indicate that the present proposed scheme will result in either a reduction in the insurance premiums and/or maintaining them even at their present level. We have sent them back as well and told them that we want a proposal with respe~t to property damage coverage under the proposed no-fault scheme.

We·have asked them to submit to us and also the firm of chartered accountants who are doing a cost analysis of this, a proposal whereby there can be some covera~e for a motorist under the no-fault scheme, for property damage loss; because the no-fault proposal and the no-fault scheme as in force in some other jurisdictions prohibits absolutely the right of a motorist to sue a third party for property damage to his own vehicle. 7015

June 10, 1974. Tape No. 1728 ~M - 10 ~any motorists in Newfoundland, I think the fi~ure is about fifty per cent, do not carry collision cove rape on their vehicles. They say · "If I am involved tn a motor vehicle collision , th ere is a fifty-fifty chance chat the ocher person will be co blame, therefore I can recover f x:om him under his property damaj?e cove rape.· • Al cernati ve_ly, Ta~ a very prudent driver and if I can ~ec by with one collision every ten vr:-ars I will be money in -pocket." So, they have noc been carryin ~ collisi on insurance .

To suddenly wine out a cau se of action for property dama~e a~ainst a third party. 1n my opinion and this ooinion is shared by mini~ters fro m other nrovinces, would he wuch coo drastic. We havr,, also noted wit h sol'le interest the rather tra~ic results that have emanated f rom the :lmposicion of state insurance in the Prnvi.nce of 'lanit oha, known as AUTOPAC. This year there was a j?enera l nremium increase of nine oer cent and in some instances u~ as hi~h as ninet een per cent.

There wa·s n very substantial loss co the '-'anito l·•a Treasury lase vear . which had to be made up ou c of the net deficit of annroximately $10 . l mill ion which had co be made up by the caxoavers of "anico t>a. to allow the mocorine public the luxury of 7016

l•mr: Jr) . l'l74, Tapr, 172rJ, Pa;,c• I - - apb (Afternoon) what in the beginnin?.; w.as suppose.-J to be a rate below industrv. 1./e I-now that '.-!anitoba's is not workin,'. so, 'fr. Speaker, •,;hen we re ceive bacl- from the i nrlw;try anrl fr~m the firm of accountlints - whose name l have been lool-in~ for here anrl cannot find - Peat, Marwick'! MR. JJrrr1A:;: No, it is not Pe;it, !>farwick it is - MR. !!_ .. :-i_. KO\-I_E_: Tloane? MIL ll!CK!'1AN: No. /lo ir. is not. The government will decide whet'ier it is in the best interest of the Newfoundlanrl motorist to have no- fault insurance.

The hope is that we can find a scheme that will result i ,. no-fault insurance bein~ iranlemented. 11R. :JJ.Af<Y: '.fr. Soeaker, I wonder if the honourable the Premier coulrl -- ·- . el;ihorate on ,; public statement that bP. made outside of this i!ouse in connection with his recent trio to Europe and to Grf:at flritain with regard to the negotiations and inLerviews with people that he boned would come over and worl- for the r~urchill Falls Corporation? HQ_N...:_ f.D.M<JORF.S (Pr:c_"!_i"rl_: Mr. Sneaker, that is not quite accurate.

Thr· position will he outlined lat<'r today when the debate resumes on the IIHlNCU - Churchill Falls Labrador Development hit and piece and it will he tGtallv clarifiP.<l ~t that time when I speak. !'1R. Nl•:ARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Wil 1 the Premier indicate then if these are replacements for people who have resiP,ned at r.hurchill Falls? l asked the minister earlier, before the Premier came in, about the suhcontractorl,i down there. Have they heen kicked out? 11R. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, I tried to mention that I will be clarifyin~ this later this afteIT10on, I hope evP.n to the honourable member's satisfaction. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, iust to change the subiect: I wonder if the -- -- - - Premier could tell us - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Yes they have resigned, Sir. AN HON. MF:MBER: N'o! No! No: MR. NEARY: "That ain't the way I heered it.•· honourable the Premier - to change the subject I wonder, Sir, if the could tell us what is 701J

June 10, 1974, Tape 1729, Page 2 -- apb Afternoon happening to the buffalo population on Brunette Island? MR. MOORES: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker. Maybe we should send the honourable gentleman, "The Reddy Kilowatt from Bell Island", to check it out. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs: I wonder if he would bring us up to date on the proposed road for Gaultois. I have been having some difficulty getting information.

I have tried a number of ministers hut I understand now that it is the responsibility of the Department of Municipal Affairs. Could the minister bring us up to date on what is happening on the Gaultois road? MR. H,R_:_v_.EA_RLE (M.inister of Municipal Affairs and Ho~sing) :_ Mr, Speaker, at the moment I am not in a position to give a correct answer. I will check it out and see where we stand. MR. SIMMONS: I s ee the Minister of Transportation. Perhaps he could also indicate to me or to the House, what is happening on the ferry for Gaultois. He undertook a couple of months ago to pursue this matter with all haste.

I have been having some difficulty getting reports since, so perhaps he could brief us on it. MR. T. V. HICKEY (Minister_oLix:an:;p .or.tati~m sm.c!.J&.mgiunicatiom;): Mr. Speaker, all I can tell the honourable gentleman is that subsequent to his meeting and that of the delegation from Gaultois, I passed on that request to the Director of Transportation. I have not had the chance to get together with him but I have asked him to give me some details in terms of what was required and so on. As soon as I get the report from him I shall be glad to pass it along. MR.

SIMMONS: A supplementary: Is the minister indicating that a feasibility study is being done now? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure whether I would term it a feasibility study. I have asked the Director of Transportation to indicate to me, for example, what type of vessel would be required and some further details before we get into actually talking about the service. At the present time it is not clear to me what kind of service would be required norindeed what kind of a vessel would be required. 7018

June 10, 1974, Tape 1729, Page 3 -- apb Afternoon MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary: When does the minister expect to be able to have this study at band and the findings? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have no idea. As I indicated I have just gotten back and I have not had the chance to talk to my officials yet. I do not know how long it will take. All I can say to the honourable gentlemen is that as soon as I get it, I have no reason to keep it from him, I shall be glad to contact him and pass on the information. MR. SPEAKER: The time for the question period has now expired and we shall proceed to Order of the Day.

On motion,that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions relating to the raising of moneys required for the purchase by the Province from Brinco Limited of all the interest and title of that company in and to hydro electric facilities and water rights in Labrador, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order! I think the honourable the Leader of the Opposition had the floor when we finished on Friday. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you! Mr. Chairman, I had said a few words on Friday by way of introduction.

I would like to say a few more by means of closing phase (1) of our remarks on the resolution before the committee. The basic point, I think which I had made on Friday, Mr. Chairman, was the point that the government have not yet given the committee nor for that matter the people of Newfoundland any real information about the financial aspects of the Upper Churchill pro.1ect itself. They have not told us how much money the Churchill Falls Labrador Corporation is expected to earn in a given year.

The corporation's income should within the next year, I should think, be at its peak or at least have reached a very high level. The only product of the company will be the electricity which comes from the Upper Churchill. The only source of revenue will be the money they will get from selling that power. As we all know,the power has been sold for many years forward and for many years forward at a fixed price. That means that it should be relatively easy to foresee the 7019

June 10 , 1974, Tape 1729, Page 4 -- apb Afternoon revenue of the company. The expenses I would think are nearly as easy to foresee. The cost of the money that has been borrowed to build the project is foreseeable. Most of the money in fact has been borrowed. The only variable cost I would assume would be staff, operations and maintenance costs,and they are surely a very small part. I suspect the government have this information. Indeed, I am- quite sure that they do and I would like them to make it publ1c.

I also made the point on Friday,which I think is worth making again just to put the thing into perspective, that to my colleagues and me the question with respect to the Lower Churchill is the destiny of the power and the price which shall be paid for that power and above all the involvement of the province in providing that price and in consuming that power. The Ministe ·r of Energy made the statement (I am putting words in his mouth but I think I am accurately reproducing his thought) that an aluminum plant or some such high-load factor, high-volume consumer of energy was not necessary.

I was glad to hear him say that because,as I said and let me say again, an aluminum plant I think is of debatable value to Newfoundland. It is a very expensive proposition. It would take a great deal of money to put one here. That money would not be put up by us but we would have to put up the money to provide the power supply. If an aluminum plant should use one-third of the Upper Churchill power, as it easily could, then we are putting up, if the cost is say $1.2 million, and it is more than that as I will come to, we are putting up $400 million for power for an aluminum plant.

I say that if industry should want to come and it cost us $400 million,we have a right to expect a good deal in return. I am not sure that an aluminum plant represents such a good deal at all on those terms. I think it should be borne in mind that alUlllinum in particular and it is the one that everybody talks about when we come to talking of energy consumption, aluminum consumes a very great deal of energy for a relatively low return in jobs. Our interest in these projects is surely largely, not totally but largely based upon the number of jobs 7020

June 10, 1974, Tape 1729, Page 5 -- apb to be produced and the amount of money that will be put into circulation. Afternoon We must be concerned as well with environmental considerations and with the general social factors. The aluminum nlant bv that measuring, by those standards then comes off at least as badly as any other large, heavy industry, anv other large industrial process. I hope that we will not get locked into the position where we have to take an alU111inum plant.

I would think that as we look at the Lower Churchill - there was an editorial in the "Telegram" on Saturday if I may be permitted to refer to that "yellow rag of journalism" or whatever it is. The"scurrilous dogs". I forget the current epithet that is being used,but it made a very good point. Sometimes the "Telegram" editorials make very good points and this is one of them.

The point was that the deals which the government shall be making in the next little while, the next year or two,whatever it is with respect to the sale of the power from the Lower Churchill, the energy from the Lower Churchill, that we will really not know the value of those deals .or not know the social nor economic worth or otherwise for a number of years. The "Telegram" said that some of the present cabinet may not be in office,and I believe that to be correct. Indeed, I believe none of them will be in office by 1979,the date that they mentioned. It also said that some of them would be dead.

I hope that that is a little optimistic. The only demise I wish for gentlemen opposite is political and the sooner that comes the better. Mr. Chairman, there is an important point: We are going to have if the Lower Churchill development is brought to the island, as the ministry say they intend to do, we are going to have a very large block of power, 1,800 megawatts,in round figures, twice as much as we are now consuming on the island,for all purposes. MR. DOODY: 1,400. MR. ROBERTS: Well the Teshmont Report is 1,760. MR. DOODY: That is up there. 7021

June 10, 1974, Tape 1729, Page 6 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: MR. DOODY: That is up there. How much comes to the island? 1,400 firm on the island. Afternoon MR. ROBERTS: 1,400 firm on the island. We are still talking one and a-half times as much as we are now consuming on this island. That is a lot of power, Sir. The Minister of Industrial Development is playing his usual role of being a "Yes" man. HR. DOODY: I always agree with the honourable Leader of the Opposition, Sir. MR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman does always agree. MR. DOODY: Always. MP-.

ROBERTS: Unfortunately he agrees not only with me but he agrees with others and that, Sir, is his problem. Mr. Chairman, the position is that the government are going to have to find a customer for that power. Until they have a customer at commercial rates for a long period of time, then there will be nobody willing to put up the money needed to finance the whole development. That includes the Government of Canada and that includes the money people,be they in London or in Montreal or in New York or wherever the money of this sort comes from. The Minister of Industry shakes his head.

Well, I say that for once he is wrong.

For once he should agree with " me that nobody will len<l the province, whether it be the province directly or whether it be Gull Island Power Company Limited, I do not care what they call it, if they set up a corporate entity to deal with the development of the Lower Churchill nobody is going to lend 0 the money needed, over $1 billion, it will be close to $1.5 billion by the time ~e are done, nobody is going to lend that money without take-or-pay contracts for a very large chunk of the power to be produced and at rates that will generate revenues sufficient to amortize the debt, to repay the principal and to pay the interest.

We have two choices for that, Sir. We do not have to have industry. We do not have to,but we have to have a customer. My fear is and I think the government are on the brink of this now, I think they have made a political commitment and now they are going to have to chop reality to fit into it. I think they may be in the position of Procrustes, Procrustes 1 bed, who took travellers in and made people fit his iron bed.

June 10, 1974, Tape 1729, Page 7 -- apb Afternoon If they were too short they were stretched and if they were too tall they haq their feet chopped off or their heads chopped off. It goes way back to classical times. I might also remind the honourable member of another classical simile that he for one would do well to remember. It is the story of Icarus, a man who on wings of wax and fea~hers flew too close to the sun. When Icarus got too close to the sun the wax and the wings melted. I would remind the honourable member that those who get too close to the radiance of high places often wilt and suffer. AN HON.

MEMBER: That happened to the honourable Leader of the Opposition some time ago. MR. ROBERTS: No, Sir. My fall from grace had nothing at all to do with that sort of thing, MR. DOODY : That was not the sun then? MR. ROBERTS: No, Sir. In Newfoundland it was not. The Minister of Industrial Development would do very well. He has a chance here to do somethinp, worthwhile for Newfoundland or he has a chance to particip'ate in what could be one of the great disasters in Canadian History. I must say, on his record he is equally competent to achieve either.

Now, Sir, we are a long way ahead of selling beans or whatever the honourable gentleman tells us he has done. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: Of all the things he has done so far,I do not krow of one mistake he made. MR. ROBERTS: I realize the Minister of Finance does not know of any mistakes but that in itself, Sir, - MR. DOODY: I am as good at selling beans as the honourable member is at practicing law. That is the way I look at it. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.Chairman, they are all great tenders of the fact that I have not practiced law. At least let me say this, Mr.

Chairman: I am able to go back to the practice of law,which is more than I can say for the honourable gentleman going back to the selling of beans. The standard of the bean industry has improved considerably since the honourable gentleman sold them. MR. DOODY: They would love to have me. There are thousands of them 7023

June 10, 1974, Tape 1729, Page 8 -- apb Afternoon screaming outside the building now; "Doody leave the government and come back to the beans." MR, ROBERTS: Yes, Sir, I agree. There are thousands outside the building screaming; "Doody leave the government." Most of them are the honourable gentleman's constituents,as he will find out. MR. DOODY: That is right for - MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Chairman, SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR. CHAIID-[Ai~ (Stagg): Order please! Order please!

Being the first day of the week and the honourable gentlemen have now gotten some of their more intemperate remarks out of their systems, maybe we can resume this debate; I'. relevant debate and a courteous debate. HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, as I was saying,the problem is that we are going to have a great quantity of power. We are goinP, to have to find a customer and there are only two possible customers, two possible ~roups of customers: (1) is the government themselves through the Newfoundland and Lbardor Power Commission or through some other agency and the other is industrial development.

In the latter, if one wish, underlying it all is the domestic load growth. I am told that by 1990 predictions are that the present domestic load will have grown to the point where it will absorb all of the extra power which could he produced from the Lower Churchill. That is fine, Sir. That is .iust Jim Dandy. In 1990 all of the power which would come to the island would be used up in normal domestic use. Well and good, a customer. Not a VPry good customer in economic terms, because you are Jocking at load factors at fifty per cent, but a customer, somebody to use the power.

At least half of the power that will be produced from the Lower Churchill would be paid for. Who would pay for the other half? We the people would. What do "'e do for the eleven years in between? They are talking of this power coming here to the island in 1979 but 1990 is the earliest date at which, under present predictions, the domestic load growth will have grown sufficiently to absorb all of that power. Yet, Sir, the power must be paid for the moment the money is borrowed,which means at the very latest 1979. The interest during construction 7024

.June 10, 1974, Tape 1729, Page 9 -- apb Afternoon will be capitalized in accordance with the nonnal technique. I say there is a danger. I am not saying that it 1'411 happen, I hope it will not but the danger is there and the ministry are being intellectually dishonest in attempting to mislead the country.

If they do not point out that the moment we the Newfoundland people decide through the government to go ahead and develop the Lower Churchill, we take upon ourselves the borrowing of all the money involved, $1 billion, $1.5 billion,and consequent upon that we take upon ourselves the obligation to repay that money. The money to repay that debt can come from only two sources: It either comes from the sale of the power or it comes from us the taxpayers. The burden of repaying that could be extremely heavy. It is estimated at the best level in this report, this Teshmont business, at over $100 million a year.

That is a lot of money. If we sell all the power all is well and dandy, If the ministry can show us where they will sell the power and show us how it will be sold at commercial rates for desirable industries, then I would be the first to stand and say; Hurrah: and Well done: They have made no such efforts to show this. There is vague talk. The Premier goes to Corner Brook and speaks to his own riding association at a mass meeting. He talks about four, five, six or seven types of industry which will come.

These are essentially the ones outlined in this report (I forget the page) a caustic soda plant, a chlorine plant, a cement, an aluminum reduction plant; all of them fine and all of them pipe dreams. The cement plant may be close to reality; really through little achievement of the government hut through the normal - MR. DOODY: They laughed at the mine. MR. ROBERTS: What mine? MR. DOODY: The tech mine. MR. ROBERTS: I did not laugh at the tech mine. Mr. Chairman, the honourable gentleman is attempting at the very best to twist and to distort. MR. DOODY: Not at all. MR.

ROBERTS: The tech mine was made possible by grants. 7025

June Hl, 1974 (Afternoon) Tape No.1730 KM-1 MR DOODY: They refused to build the northern highway. What a joke! '1R ROBERTS: No, Sir. What I do say again is that the government are, to use David Lewis's phrase, taking part, taking

part in a giant corporate rip-off lv giving a great, rich company, a great rich corporation that can develop a mine and will make great profits out of that mine, depleting all resources, they will give them a free road. ~ice crowd! Another coroorate rip-off! AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: DREE Road. MR ROBERTS: Free road! Free and DREE! I would rather, Sir, if we are going to have DREE roads, let them put the road where the need is. Let the Premier get in his car and drive with me, or without me if he prefer, from Deer Lake to St Anthony, and let him then see where the road should go if they have nREE money. It is going in the Daniel's Harbour

section because the province insisted upon it , because the province insisted unon it, asked for it, insisted upon it and said ap,ain and again that it must go there. Their interest was not people, their interest was the zinc mine. That was their interest. No, Sir. thejr interest in puttinp. that DRF.E money and that free road for that great mining company - MR SPEAKER: Order please! I would like to hear the end of it. It will nrobablv take some time. I suggest it is stretching the bounds of relevancy to the resolution under discussion. !'R ROBERTS: I can understand Your Honour's ruling.

I only hope the ~inister of Irdustrial Development does as well. The point I was making was that the Premier,in Corner Brook, and it was based upon a statement in the Teshmont Report, the Premier announced a great range of possible energy users, possible industry could come to Newfoundland to use energy. (I will be at least ten minutes, yes.) The Premier is dving for a 911loke. The Minister of Health would take umbrage to that, and so he should. The industries are only pipe dreams, except for the cement plant.

The cement plant is a very real possibility because we have the resource~ and the economics of it in the world market and particularly in the American market are now such that our resource - it is down in Your Honour's district. Your Honour doubtlessly knows all about it. 7026

June 10, 1974 (Afternoon) Tape No.1730 KM-2 Your Honour will doubtlessly be there laying the first cement or whatever it is one does to open a cement plant: and the gentleman from St George's will be a good second, which is his normal role in life anyway. Now, Sir, the government are embarking upon this plan. They realize that the island needs power. There is no doubt at all that Newfoundland is going to run out of power, the Island of Newfoundland and the Mainland of Labrador are going to run out of power very quickly and very soon and very shortly. So, we must have power.

If the Lower Churchill he the way to do it, they have not yet shown us that. I am not opposing it, I am not endorsing it, I am merely raising the question. They have not yet shown that the Lower Churchill is the best means of providing the power that we must have in Newfoundland. They have come up with all sorts of airy-fairy statements that sound magnificent until they are examined. They have talked, for example, of exporting power to Quebec. The Premier has said this a number of times. The gentleman from Placentia West, the Minister of Mines and Energy, said again in the House on Friday, when he spoke.

Quebec, I have no doubt, will purchase our power. They will purchase it at a damn cheap price. The Teshmont suggestion is five mils; but it costs us fifteen mils for the island - and thev are proposing to sell it to Quebec for five mils, short term, short-term recall. First of all, there is no evidence that Ouehec will buy power on that basis and, secondly, there is no mention anywhere of the cost of providing the means of transmitting that power from the Upper Churchill - the inter-tie is provided for from the Lower Churchill to the Upper Churchill: from the Upper Churchill West. I am tnlrl, Mr.

Chairman, by an engineer and I must go on what I am told, that the lines now there are not adequate to handle any significant extra amount of power. There are three lines there. Two of them are used to carry the full capacity of the Upper Churchill and the third is a spare to get an extra amount of power. IN HONOURABLE ~ER: The word from Hydro Quebec says that - MR ROBERTS: The word from - I would like to see somebody a little more authorative than the minister speaking off the cuff.

I would like to see a statement, I would like to see a proposal, I would like to see something behind, beyond airy-fairy statements. The Premier's statement 7027

June 10, 1974 (Afternoon) Tape 1730 KM-3 in Corner Brook again was that airy-fairy when it came to this. fine and dandy! But where are we going to get the money? We are on the back of the note and Quebec know it. The Minister of Finance was so eloquent the other day when he talked ar-out the bargaining power of 0uehec or the one-sided relationship which existed between Newfoundland on the one side and Quebec on the other, or Brinco and Ouebec,when it came to selling Churchill power. Well, what bargaining power would we have here? Short-term power going west to Ouehec, Sir, is a pine dream, an absolute pipe dream.

The danger is that the ministry will go ahead and build this project and then go looking for power consumers, then go looking for somebody to pay them for the energy: but meanwh:tle we mll he nn the hack of the note, Sir,we wil] he lashing out the money each year. That is the danger. Then too when they come to talk of industry,there is another noint I would like them to elaborate upon when thev speak and that is the liability factor, the back-up factor. lndustrv, the heavv user:e;, narticularly an aluminum plant insist upon a great degree of back-up~ thirty or forty per cent I am told in aluminum plants.

If thev normallv have a million units of electricity they want an assurance that at least three hundred thousand to four hundred thousand be available from an alternate source of supply, should the main source of supply for some reason cease to produce. And we are proposing to build an aluminum olant on this island, and one suggestion, proposing to build it at the end of a six hundred mile power line across some of the wildest country in North America. What are we using for back-up? Are we going to use Bay D'Espoir? That is terrific, just magnificent!

We are all sitting at home some evening, watching our television, and a little notice comes on: "The main line is in trouble, therefore we are going to have to cut into the alternate supply. Therefore, ladies and gentlemen, your power is going to be cut in half so we can keep the pot line warm on the aluminum line." Where is the alternate line going to come from? Thermo plant? Possibly. Maybe Holyrood. Holyrood is already being used for hack-up. 7028

June 10, 1974 (Afteroon) Tape 1730 KM-4 Is it enough? If not, what is the extra cost? Another matter the ministry haA not dealt with. On the quasi-technical thing, let me add something to the remarr.s of the ~inister of Energy about crossing the Straits: The Teshmont people have recoaanended there are two possible way of getting no~-1er across the Straits. It is a startlfn~ imput into the obvious. They either run it in a submarine cable laid along the floor or they dig a tunnel and put the power cables through the tunnel.

They recommend that it he laid on the submarine ceble route, that tunnels be driven down at each end and out a little bit under the Straits and from then on it just follow the course of the bott01T1 across the way. Well, it is known that power to cross the Straits it will have to be a tunnel. There is no other way around it. The Teshmont Report makes a ·great point of saying that the depth of the water is two hundred and ten feet and that there is a central hank protecting it and that no icehergs can get down beyond that to destroy the cable. ~r.

Chairman, on last Thursday, when I checked this when I thought I might get to Speak in the debate on that day, Thursday I checked this and there was an iceherg aground south of the Central Bank, directly on the route of the cable route, the proposed cahle route across the Straits, in three hundred and ten feet of water. It was just off Point Amour on the Southern Coast of Labrador, and if there had been cables in existence that iceberg would have in all probability damaged those cables and possibly cut them. So much for the Teshmont Report.

But the fact remains that on last Thursday there was an iceberg, and it may still be there for all I know, aground in three hundred and ten feet of water. It was observed by the University Iceberg Report Spotting Station at Point Amour. They bought the lighthouse from the Government of Canada, the Transport Department. They have a team there. They have been studying it for a number of years. So for them to put the power across the Straits it will have to be in a submarine tunnel.

We cannot take a chance because if the power should be interrupted it is not just a matter of replacing a fu~e or of ge~ting a new cord and splicing it on to the appliance, it is a matter of getting new cable and new cable laid. I am told that unless one be willing to carry 7029

June 1n, 1974 Tane 173() KM-5 a very high inventory of twenty or thirty millions to have the cahle just spare, ready on the shelf, that if one were not to do that one faces a wait of a year or two years to get new cables made to specifications. It is obvious that tf we are going to come across the Straits we are in for the extra cost of the tunnel whatever it may be. That will be $50 million or $h0 million or $70 million.

I think if the ~inister of Energy were to be frank with the House he would tell us that the technical peonle at Ottawa have expressed the same doubts as well, the very serious doubts about anv possihility of bringing the power across the Straits by submarine cable, with the degree of reliance and safty and effectiveness which is needed, If we are going to bring it across the Straits, we are going to put it rock tunnel across underneath the bottom of the Straits and bring it down to Forteau somewhere and bring it up on the other side to Salvage Cove or somewhere on that part of St Barbe North.

I have already touched upon the reliability, the factor that again has not been dealt with by any of the speakers for the ministry nor, as far as I can see, with the rePort. What do we use for back-up sunplies? Are we goin~ to put the whole orovince's energy position in as hostag.e at the end of a s:fx hundred mile line? Obviously that is unthinkable. We have some supplies on the Island, but are we going to have enough?

If our domestic consumption is going to increase from nine hundred megawatts a year or gigswatts or gigawatt howe" ver that turns out to be - if it is going to increase from a capacity of nine hundred megawatts a year to a capacity of twenty-three hundred or twenty-four hundred mepawatts a year, obviously the back-up supplies that we now have are not adequate. We shall need others. Where are they to come from? Where are they to be and what are they to cost? Because if we are to build thermo plants, these are very expensive,as we all know. They may be the only solution. What else?

But again, what are the government thinking? On the subject of cost, ~r. Chairman, I would like to know just what effect all of this is goinp. to have on the debt of this province. The Minister of Finance pooh-poohed and scorned and got off with all his usual cheap clantrap which to me is dead certain proof that he is concerned, that he l<nows,that he is worried that th:fs proposal to borrow over a billion

·"" June 10, 1974 (Afternoon · Tape 1730 KM-6 dollars, every cent of ,.,,hich, '-fr. Chairman, will be directly on the credit . of this province. It may not show in the direct debt but it will certainly show in our guaranteed debt: and in one blow we are going to double the debt of Newfoundland, from a billion and two hundred million dollars, a billion and three hundred million dollars, whatever it is today, to over two and a half billion dollars.

I would think, ~r. r.hairman, this is something that should be looked at and examined and thought about by all the neonle of Newfoundland, because we need roads and we need schools and hospital and water and sewer svstems and we need a great deal else in Newfoundland: and our capacitv to get those things depends upon our capacity to borrow money with which to build them and our canacity to repay that money we have horrowP-d. But if we increase the debt of the province, if we double it with one shot, what does that do to our canacity to borrow?

The Minister of Finance has already, time and time again,lectured us with his tales of woe about how much we have borrowed and how we cannot go on borrowing as much. And we saw a savage tax increase this vear, brought in for one purpose only, to annease the bond market, to try to convince them that they should lend them more money. What is going to hanpen when we add on a billion dollars to a billion and a half dollars? Let there he no doubt that everv cent of it will be on our debt, every cent of it.

That includes Ottawa because even if nttawa put un the five hundred million dollars or whatever the trans­ mission lines will cost, and I believe they will and I hone they will and I think they should, that shows on our debt. We have to undertake to pay off that debt and it is as much a part of the debt of this nrovince as is the Confederation Building, the lease-hack here, or the linerboard mill at Stephenville. If anybody think the Government of Canada are going to nut up a trani;mission line and give it to us, he has another think coming.

Five hundred million dollars even for Ottawa is a very great deal of money and they will do it only if they can be shown how it is to be naid back and given some security so that they get their repayment. They owe nothing less to the taxpayers of Canada and the people of the country who put up the money. 7031

June 10, 1974 Tape 1730 J0<-7 The total cost we are told, according to the report, twelve hundred million dollars: five hundred million at Gull Island, in round figures, five hundred millions, in round figures, for transmission, fifty millions for the inter-tie to the Upper Churchill: one hundred and fifty millions extra capacity on the Island, twinning or tripling,or whatever the technical phraee,of our power lines on the Island. I say, Sir, that is not the true cost. I say that if we come out of this with less than one and a half billion dollars we will be doing well.

The ~inister of Energy can say anvthing he want , he can produce all of the fancy figures he want but anything less than a billion and a half dollars, $1,500,000,000. AN H0NOURABLE ~EMBER: He is using his glass ball. MR ~nRERTS: I am not using my glass ball, I am merely saying what has hapnened to every project that ever was started. I am also relying uoon Mr. Jamieson who made some very good statements which have not been critid.?.ed - Oh, they have heen criticized, of course, hP.cause they are unpalatable hut they have not heen ccrntrarlicted.

This Tes!,mont Rep,..,rt is based on money at seven and a-half per cent, eight and a-half ner cent. Money today is eleven ner cent and twelve per cent. I was at a luncheon, so was the ~inister of Finance, at which the chief general :malyst of the Bank of Commerce was present. He was here and took out a number of nrosperous oersons and a number of us de~tors, bought us all a lunch. He said, and it was not a orivate affair at all, that he could not see any real change in interest rates.

He did not know ~•hat Pas goi.ng to happen, but he said that they might go down a little hit in the next little while, but he certainly would not het a lot of money on it. Well, we are betting a lot of money on an interest rate. The maior cost of a hydro-development is the cost of the borrowed money. When the Minister of Energy speaks, and he can speak again and again and again, let him deal with those facts. What is it going to cost at eleven per cent interest or ten per cent interest? MR BARRY: It is still the lowest cost.if the rates are anything less than thirteen per cent - 7032

June 10, 1974 Tape 1730 KM-8 MR ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman says "lowest cost". I shall come in a minute to lowest costs, compared to what? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The other alternatives. I am sorry? MR ROBERTS: What I want to know is what it is going to do to the credit of the province and what effect it is going to have on our borrowing power. I do not see how and I do not think anybody can see how we are going to be able to borrow another billion dollars without it affecting our credit. That is six year's borrowing.

Add on the $160,000,000 we are borrowing in the bill before the collDllittee; project financing. Of course it is nro .1ect financing but it still has to be borrowed and paid out. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: There is a lot of difference in the borrowing. MF. ROBERTS: Yes, that is true. That is true. The difference, Mr. Chair111an, the difference is that the ~roject nays it back. That is why I kept asking when will the nroject, where are we going to get it paid back? That is the information we have not had. That is the information we have not got. That is the important information. Of course it will affect it.

The Ray D'F.spoir was nroject financing. If one heard honourahle gentlemen when they were on this side talking about the debt of the province, a quarter of a million of which includes Bay D'Esnoir. We did not hear any talk about project financing then, ~fr. Chairman, nor did we hear any talk about pro _1ect financin,-- when we came to look at the guarantees for all the other things shown in exactly the same way, F.PA, all the other industrial developments which stand to the debt of this province, the fish nlants and what have you, all of them project financing.

But the only person in this project is the Government of the Province and the only peonle who stand behind it are the taxnayers of this orovince. So that is why the ouestion must be asked and it must be dealt with. In the Testmont Report, page 26:- "Even given fast energy growth, even given the )?'overnment's optimistic forecast .•• " and I suspect they are more than optimistic - " ••• the power will not be used until 1985, in full." Who pays for the surplus energy?

This year in the estimates of the government there is provision for about ten million dollars for surplus energy, and that is in connection with the Holyrood thermo plant and the surplus capacity we have on the Island, about one-third; thirty-three 7033

June 10, 1Q74 '!'ape 173(1 KX-9 oer cent accordinp to the Teshmont fiJ<Ures. Who fa p,oing to pay for the surplus energy from 1979 to 198-5? The answer is we, the peoole. Sure we are! Sure we are : It is going to come ripht out of our pock ets , anot her two per cent or three per cent or four ner cent on the sales tax, that is what we will oay . That ii; what 1,ie will nay. f'ne po;!.nt is nine mill ion dol lars or ten trillion dollars . !lo,., many ooi nts to nay for that ?

Well, we will come back to the question of other thenn .o olants beside oil plants or coal plan ts or nuclear plants , the three sources of the=o oower. Nobody has ever used wood that J knov of to make thenno power, al thou,i;h to hear the forestr y neonle talk r,erhaos that is going to come next. If we ,r.o on the «low 17.rowth. whatever that me.ans, 1988 : So we arP stuc at the heat w1ch six years of paying for power that is not bei.nS?. u!=:ecl and stuclr as well with the grave danger that even 1n a fa:st ener~v ~rowth we wi,Jl see loss leaders.

Let us put this to the ministry: They say n·ow ,md thev orohahly mean it, I think they mean it: "Oh well, we are not ,r.o1.nit to h:ive ;rny givea ways of power. " And they will all. stand and say to me: '"We will all s tand and believe it!" Well, I ask them now recause l have seen the situation where honourable and honest inen, honourahle !(entlemen opposite are honourab le and honest, ii:et tranped. I can see it now; they have to i:ell a certain !.'rnnortfon 7034

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1731 Page 1 - MW of the power. They have only one, two or three possible customers. That is all they will have, only ,a limited number. They will have ·to take any terms they can get. The customers know that just as Hyd·ro Quebec knew full well the situation with res1>ect to the power on the Upper Churchill. The Minister of Finance went on at some length and he was quite right. I invite the ministry now (They may laugh at this but I think it is an idea that is well worth looking into.) to put

an act on the books of this House, on the Statutes of this Province. that no power can be sold at less than cost. Put it on the Statute Books so that no minister or no cabinet have any power to do it. If there should be a case to do it, come back to the House and the House can change any law that the House has ever made. It would be statute barred. Then when the industries come in, a cost can be defined. It could be worked out. It might take a few words but it could be done. It worked out with John Shaheen a number of times. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Right, using the same

definitions that we worked out the first time around, word for word. They are written by Mr. Fred Woolgar and Mr. Larry Johnson of Peat, Marwick,and checked by all sorts of people.but good

definitions. Put it on the books and then a company fir;ures: "Ah, ha! 'fo p.ot 1\Jewfound1 and now, boys: She has got to sell 300 or 400 megawatts of power and we are the only possible users." Give the ministry the ability to say, 11well, we are statute barred, we cannot go into the House. Unless we go into the House, we cannot sell it at less than the defined rates; It is a suggestion well worth thinking about because believe me, Mr. Chairman ; I can see the day coming when the ministry, be it this ministry or be it their successors, will be faced with the alternative of, "Boys, we got to sell the power.

The only customer is a crowd who will buy it at a fire-sale rate, at a cheap rate. Are we going to do it or are we going to start digging into our own pockets to pay it out?" The Minister of Energy shakes his head. The Minister of Energy, Sir, is not much older than I am. Indeed, he may not even be as old as I am. 7035

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1731 Page 2 We are approximately the same age. I am afraid that I have seen more for good and for bad government than he has yet. I would suggest to the Minister of Energy that that suggestion is well-worth - MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: If the minister he genuine in his protestations that the province will not sell power at uneconomic rates, then let him bring in such legislation and put it on the books. It could always be changed if time should show the necessity to change it. It can always be changed. The House can change any law that the House has ever passed.

We have that right under the constitution. I suggest that, It would be a good, earnest - AN HON. MEMBER: Define cost. MR. ROBERTS: Of course, one has to define cost. It might take a hundred pages to define cost. That would be a lot cheaper and a lot easier than selling power ac less u1an che cosc. of co•ir~c,, cost can be defined. It is defined in the Teshmont Report and it is defined in even document the minister has. If it is not defined, he is working with less than the full information. This is not going to be cheap power, Mr. Chairman.

Even giving the federal financing a"lternative, which is the cheapest alternative, the cost at the bus bar, 1985, is supposed to be 4.3 mils: 01·,-l ,mother 4.3 mils to move it to the island. Mr. Chairman, you are looking at 8.5 mi] power. Given the federal financing of the whole picture, 1980, Hr. Chairman, you are looking at power of 13.9 mils . Given the base case, 1980, the base case is the most expensive, it is the private enterprise group. Mr. Chairman, you are looking at 13 mil power in 1980, you are looking at 14 mil . power in 1985.

That is even with federal financing, the former figures of 14 mil s in 1980 and 9 mils in 1YH5. Mr. Chairman, the difference between them, of course, is that the base case includes sending power west to Quebec and the other case does not take that, The figures can be found on page ninety-four of the r~port, ninety-four and ninety-eight were the figures I quoted. The minister can look them up. 7036

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1731 Page 3 As for the federal role, there is an interesting thing which seems to be developing. The ministry seem to be taking the position now that if this thing shou .ld not go ahead it shall he al ' the fault of Ottawa. I have no doubt,'Sir, and I have no authority to speak for Ottawa on this but if the problem,if financially sound and if there are sufficient customers located and signed up with sufficiently proper contracts, then Ottawa shall finance it . I want to know if we have to choose between that financing and something else.

Ottawa has a limited number of dollars for all of Canada. Any government does, whether it is Mr. Stanfield as Prime Minister, Mr. Trudeau, Mr. Lewis or Mr. Caouette. If we get five hundred millions put into a power line,will that mean that 111Uch less for a highway or will it mean that much less for the housing funds from Central Mortgage or that much less for roads from OREE or that much less for resource development, fishery and forests? These are questions which should be answered. They have not been answered.

I find it passing strange,while on Ottawa's involvement,that after the government buy the Upper Churchill, they go to Ottawa and ask to set up a study of the various financing methods and what they will cost. I would have thought that that would have been a preliminary step. Finally, Mr. Chairman, I would like to say a word or two about nuclear power. The Teshmont Report on nuclear power deals with it in a short paragraph. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: No, it has not been tabled. That is why I have not read it. When I checked for it, it was not here. It may have been lost.

The Teshmont Report deals with the nuclear alternative in a very short form. I think it is a paragraph. It may be eight or ten lines. I do not have the page reference here. I could find it if one wanted to look it up for a minute. I am sure the minister knows the report intimately. 7037

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1731 Page 4 I do not know what nunclear power will cost, The International Atomic Energy Agency, which is a UN body, convened a wo r 1.«w , 11c· symposium, which was held in Instanbul, an interesting place. The information in that was that the total for nuclear power was 2.81 mills. That would be on site, There would have to be a transmission charge. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I am merely reading what is put out in this great marvelous book. The Government of New Brunswick are putting up a project to produce 1,200 megawatts, which is about the same size as the one we have here.

They are talking of $900 million in 1979. It is not far out from what we are talking about. That is going to have in addition,off that figure will have to come the federal contribution because Ottawa I understand it has offered to pay half the cost of the first nuclear installation in each province . That, of course, really does not enter into it. The point I was going to make is that they will obviously have to do the same sort of thing for Newfoundland whether we go hydro or nuclear. There will be federal involvement and that is why there is going to be federal involvement at Churchill Falls.

The point is that the nuclear alternative is not as unthinkable as is so gaily and cavalierly said. The nuclear alternative has to come on I am told in blocks of 600 megawatts. One either builds a 600 megawatt unit or one does not build any. We are talking of building an 1,800 megawatt unit or building none at all. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBER7S: The Minister of Energy shakes his head. What is he going to do, Mr. Chairman! Is be going to put a plant down there with an l,800 _megawatt capacity and not turn on half of it? MR. BARRY: We will have different lines. 7038

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1731 Page 5 MR. ROBERTS: Oh, we are going to have different lines. Well given 600 megawatt reactors, nuclear plants, we could have three. We could put one in Labrador, if we needed one in Labrador. We could put one on the West Coast and we could put one on the East Coast and not even have to build the transmission lines. Mr. Chairman, all I am saying is that the ministry, at least, to this pain~ - MR. BARRY: is saying. MR. ROBERTS: I do not believe what the honourable gentleman Mr. Chairman, the fact that the Minister of Energy is unable to believe it only strengthens my belief.

The honourable minister can get up and destroy me or disappoint me or anything he wants. He can try. Mr. Chairman, all I am saying is that the nuclear alternative is not unthinkable. It may be unpalatable and it may well be undesirable. The ministry again, Mr, Chairman, have no·t made any convincing case. All I can say in summation, Sir, is that the government have made a political decision. That is neither good nor bad. They are now trying to get the facts to fit that decision. They have announced they are going ahead and now they have set up the financing study group after they commit us publicly to it.

They have not sent any legal documents for the Lower Churchill. Then they commit us publicly to go ahead. I fear they are placing themselves in a position where they will have to go ahead whether the facts justify them or not. That is all I am saying. That is all any of us are saying. That is all any of us can say in Newfoundland. The government have not been very free with information. They produced one copy of a report for the committee and then there is the one copy here of the

summary volume which was llade available to the opposition. That is the sum total of the information which they have made public. The two speeches by the two ministers who spoke here in this debate have given us no information that we did not have before. 7039

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1731 Page 6 I say to the ministry, Sir, that they have a duty to tell the people of this province what it is they propose to do. Until they do, the people of this province cannot judge properly, cannot judge on the basis of all the evidence. All I have done throughout an hour and one-half of talk is raise questions, questions which I believe should be answered. I see no reason why they cannot be answered. The ministry have not answered them. I hope they will. Mr. Chairman, let me just touch on one other point, Sir, the effect on Labrador.

My colleague, the Member for Labrador North,is not here but he will be shortly. He doubtless will have a few words to say on it. I would assume that the gentleman from Labrador South will have a few words to say. In Labrador, Mr. Chairman, it is terribly relevant to this proposal to develop Churchill power. I feel and I fear that for the first time we may be seeing some substantial weight being given to a quasi-separatist or to a separatist movement. I am glad to see the gentleman from Labrador West back in his seat because I know he is as concerned about this as we all are .

There is a feeling in Labrador, it has been there for a long time and it is becoming more articulate, it is becoming more coalescent, it is becoming more vocal, it is becoming more of a political factor,and that is that Labrador is not only getting the short end of the stick, it is not getting any end of the stick. The Snowden Report, which admittedly contains nothing new, is a good

summary of many of the reasons why that feeling of discontent exists. It will be a mark of what can be achieved and it will be a test of what is achieved and 5o will this proposal to develop the Lower Churchill. There is a feeling of anger building among people who say why should our power? They took all of the Churchill power and 7040

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1731 Page 7 sent it west; they took all of our iron, ore and they are shipping it out; they are taking our forests and shipping them out to Stephenville; they are going to take the rest of the power and ship it off to the island." It is true it is part of the same province but that does not answer the questions which the people of Labrador raise. Mr.

Chairman, I think the government have a duty and a very heavy responsibility to ensure that if Churchill power is going to be used for industrial development that as much as possible of that industrial development take place on the Labrador itself. I know of all the problems, the difficulties of climate, the difficulties of shipping. the difficulties of distance and so forth. Run a line to Happy Valley and possibly to the coast to hook-up the domestic use, domestic people, the people who are there now.because what they are using in their homes now is not enough.

The iron ore mines in Labrador West and the great pelletizing plant in Labrador City are being fuelled and run on the power from Churchill Falls, Twin Falls originally. It is now all coming from Churchill. That still does not meet the feeling (We are not dealing with tangibles, we are not dealing with the types of things that can be put in a report and quantified. We are 4ealing with very real, very genuine and very deep feelings.) of 35,000 or 40,000 of the citizens of this province. The Lower Churchill will be the last great resource development.

There will be other hydro developments _presumably and other great mineral developments. It will be the last great hydro development. It will be the bench mark. Mr. Chairman, I must say that in the last few months I have been having ever greater fears that the quasi­ separatist movement for the first time is beginning to attract sympathetic attention from people of substance in Labrador. I think 7041

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1731 Page 8 it is fair to say that up until recently it had not become part of the political firmament but now it is a fact with which we must deal. One of the political parties of this province is studying it quite seriously and with an intention to make a study of it with a view to seeing whether the separatist option would work and whether the Territory of Labrador should be a federal territory as in the Yukon and Northwest Territories or whether it should become part of the Province of Quebec or whether it should attempt to achieve some other status separate from Newfoundland. AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: No, Sir. It is obviously not the Tory Party because they gave up studying some time ago. If the honourable gentleman do not know, I shall tell him. The New Labrador Party quite publicly announced that they have a coDDDittee or a number of committees at work studying this. It is a factor. It is something with which we must deal. We are not in this House of Assembly to take part - MR. BARRY: (Inaudilbe). MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, that is not worthy even of the usual despicable tactics of the gentleman from Placentia West.

I am saying, and I shall repeat it again and I shall answer to anybody in this province for what I say in this coDDDittee or outside.that the feeling is there. It is the attitude of thE Yahoos like the gentleman from Placentia West, that is leading to it. To ignore it, to pretend that it does not exist, Mr. Chairman, is to court disaster. The way to deal with it is to meet it head on, Mr. Chairman, There is a legitimate basis for that feeling. It took Don Snowden one-half million dollars and God knows how many man-hours of work to tell us what everybody knew.

He did do the service of cataloguing it all and listing them all down. Just to pretend, ignoring ;im.l it wl ll go away, is to court disaster. The way to deal with the problem is to bring it out. It is all over Labrador. People are talking seriously, maybe not the toadies with whom the Minister of Mines and Energy 7042

June 10, 1974 Tape no, 1731 Page 9 consorts with when he goes there. I say the people of Labrador, Sir, for the first time in my experience of politics, brief as that may be, as long as anybody in this committee, there is some weight being given to it. I say that is a factor which must be taken into account in shaping the policy of the Lower Churchill. I do not believe that this province should be turned over to the technocrats.

This province should be run by the elected politicians, the men who have been sent here by the citizens of this province and the men who will answer for what they have done and not done, not the technocrats. It is all very well to get Mr. Teshmont and pay him God knows how much to do a study . Well and good and useful! They do not make the decisions. They do not answer for the decisions.

The people who answer for the decisions and the people who take them are here in this House of Assembly, They have to take into account the flesh and blood and the heart and spirit as well as the dollars and cents and the gigawatts, the kilowatts, the megawatts and the millabars and the mill rates and the whole bloody works. That is all I am saying. I say the feeling is there in Labrador. The Minister of Energy's attitude is typical of the attitude of his colleagues. I hope and I believe it is not what I fo 1 one fear.

I know it is not the attitude of the gentleman from Labrador West, who is as responsible and as concerned as the gentleman from Labrador South or my colleague from Labrador North or myself or any of us in this House! Anybody who has had the least thing to do with the people of Labrador in the last six months has seen that change. It is becoming quite obvious. It is becoming quite open for the first time, For the first time ever I have noticed it of that magnitude. Up until now it was always sort of, well not quite an oddball fringe but it was a radical group.

I think the Minister of Manpower would agree with me that now there is beginning to be some solidity to it. It is not to be encouraged but 7043

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1731 Page it will not go away if we just pretend that it does not exist. The place to discuss it is here in this House of Assembly. Since the ministry have not put down a motion on the Snowden Report and have not stated their policy on it, the appropriate place is here in the discussion of a motion which will affect Labrador and affect it very deeply. It is something which the ministry must take into account. If I have said little else in this debate that the ministry pay any heed to, I would ask them to pay some attention to that. I am deadly serious and I know what I am saying.

It is a despicable tactic of the Minister of Mines and Energy. He should know better. If he do be silent. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). not, he should 10 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, it is not encouraging a fact to mention it • One does not encourage crime by mentioning the fact that there is crime in this world. MR. W. N. ROWE: We are supposed to hurv our 11.;ads in the sand. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the Minister of Energy would have us bury it and pretend it does not, the reason the problem is as bad as it is is that for too long it was ignored; for too long the ostrich like attidude of the Minister of Energy prevailed. MR.

BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Mr, Chairman, the honourable gentleman's conduct and words are equally despicable so I will not deal with them. Now, Sir, in closing, all I have said throughout the 7041

June 10, 1974 Tape No, 1732 NM - 1 hour or so I have spoken in this debate that I have asked for more information, I said we shall support this b{ll, The bill itself is fairly straightforward. It is a bill to authorize the government to borrow $160 million. We shall support it. I would assume, I do not want to speak for the gentleman from Labrador South, he will do that for himself, I assume he will support it too and every member of this House will support the bill. What we have not been told, and hopefully we will be told the financial details.

I can only assume the reason we were not told was that the Minister of Finance, through no fault of his own, is not in the best of health these days. I am sure otherwise he would have mentioned it. Perhaps when he speaks at some later point in the committee debate, and it is a committee debate, we can all speak again, there is no rule of speaking only once in this committee, that the Minister of Finance or one of his colleagues will spell it out in sufficient detail. It does not have to be great detail but it has to be sufficient detail. Then the other points which I have made are worth answering.

The questions deserve an answer, No answer, or sarcasm or scorn, -all the tactics which anybody can use. It does not take very much intelligence to use them, anybody can use them, a loud noise and a lot of scorn and sarcastic talk, We are just as capable of it on this side.I can assure Your Honour, if those questions,if they are answered by that sort of tactic, that in itself is revealing. That will show that the government have no answers, that they have not thought through the problems. I could be wron~. Indeed I might very well be wrong on most of the things that I have said.

I am not the least bit concerned about being wrong, what concerns me is if these matters go through the House without any debate, if th~y go through without questions being asked. I do not assume the ministry are the fountain, repository of all wisdom. Maybe they are. but thev have to establish that thPy are.I must say, the more I see of their performance, the less that I am convinced that they are the repository of all wisdom and knowledge. Indeed the more 7045

June in, 1974 Tape No. 1732 NM - 2 T see them the mo r" I am convinced that they have very 11 ttle knowledge or wiscom at all, lt is not enough just to fling down a report and the other volumes which have beet! tabled,bllt which only one copy of which is available, and say that is the answer. We are talking of $1.5 billion, more than that we are talkin.P .,r,011t the fntur<' of this province and that is too imnortant to be dealt with hurriedly. It is too important to be dealt with hv airv-fairv nl,c,tit11r les . with emi:,tv phrases and generalities.

The ~overnment have already committed us to a ~20 million gamble this year. We are on the hook now for ~20 million and if it work out well and good and if it do not we are out-of--nocket S.20 million. That i,; the $14 million that is in the Lower Churchill, going ahead this ye~r on surveys and what have you and another $5 million which would have to he paid out if the project were to be cut off this smmner or cut off this fall,if it were not to go ahead. l suspect the government rushed into that decision.

I suspect they rushed ahead on the basis of the Teshmont Report which they got in February and which laid down that they had t,, act. 6}· April 1, "'-'"' it'? T. t is here on the first two or three pages. Here is a report the government get, dated I believe February 1974, ff ti\? feasihll lty of bringing Gull Island power to the island by January 1, 1979,is to be protected,a decision must be made by April 1, 1974, authorizing an immediate programme of field investigation and engineering work during the sprini:t and summer of 1974. The costs of the preliminary work will be Sl4 million. To maintain the

schedule a full project releaese would be required hy October 1, 1974. If for any reason a full project release was not given on October 1, 1974 and all work was susoende>d at that time, there would be an added cost of $5 million for cancellation of contracts, demobilization and general wind-down expenses." So that is the $19 million or $20 million we are gambling now. It may be a very good gamble. But I for one am quite prepared as a Newfoundlander to see the government of our province gamble $20 million on this pro_1ect. The stakes are worth it. The gamble is either a 7046

June 10, 1974 Tape No. 1732 NM - 3 good one or a bad one and only time will tell,but it is a good risk to take. But, Sir, until and unless these other questions are answered we will not know. I think it is up to the government, particularly up to the Premier who will speak now. I assl.Dlle he will speak now. I hope he will speak now. It is up to the government to ~ive us as many of these answers as they can and where they do not have answers indicate what they are doing to get them. We have had precious few so far. The Minister of Finance was well off his usual form. He is not well.

It is not his fault and we hope he will soon be back in full vim and vigour and full of all the many marvellous things which he is usually filled with. The Minister of Energy was in his usual form,and as a result of the two speeches together we were not given a great deal of information, Well I hope we will and if they want to crack me or criticize me then they should feel perfectly at liberty to do so. It does not particularly bother me, as lon~ as we get the information. That, Sir, is where we see it now. The government have not as yet produced enough information.

They have not produced very much information of any sort and I would hope and I would ask the Premier, and that these be my closing words at this stage, to assure us that he will produce . the information,that as much of it as possible will be given before this session ends and that the questions that are in my mind and in the mind of all sorts of people all over this province will he dealt with and will be dealt with satisfactory. They have not been as yet. MR. MJORES: Mr.

Chairman, unlike the Leader of the Opposition I will try to be somewhat brief and answer I would hope most or all of his questions, certainly either directly or by taking a position whereby they will be available by one of the ministers in this debate. Certainly it is not the intention of the government to become involved on an individual basis at this time 'Whereas the Leader of the Opposition says that you can go after him the individual.

I think this bill we are debating in the House now is probably of such importance that certainly the parochialism and partisanship that has been practiced many times in the 704/

June 10, 1974 Tape No. 1732 NM - 4 past should be something that is put aside because we are talking about the largest industrial development, the largest responsibility I suppose than any government in this province has up until now ever taken on. First of all I would like to say, Sir, that the bulk of my remarks will be involvjng the corporate structure, how it is envisaged for the development of Labrador energy, what will happen to the power from that development and also later the technicalities and various financial figures will be made available by the Minister of Finance.

I might say that the Leader of the Opposition has, I am sure not intentionally but he has used a great many wrong facts when applying them to this particular project,in giving illustrations from Venezuela or whatever part of the world he got his latest brochure from, Tl1e . fact is that we are talking, Mr, Chairman, about the development of Labrador. We. are talking about the development of hydro power in Labrador and hy talking about this I think we should stay with that particular subiect and exactly what it means to our province in the future development and also in cost to us the people.

The Leader of the Opposition did say one thing which I can certainly totally agree with and I think all members of this House agree with, that is to pay a tribute to the BRINCO people for a job exceptionally well done from the time of initiation. When I say'well done' I am talking about being pioneers in the fields of engineering and financial achievement.

I agree that when the Upper Churchill was commenced, I suppose it was a very difficult time for people in an area such as remote as that part of La~cador was, it was very difficult for financiers in New Yerk, for the people who put the engineering studies together, to make it a real thing. The sales contract which sold the power that qualified the financing at the time certainly is a matter of debate. Hingsight is not what is important now. although I am sure that most of us feel that Newfoundland did not benefit to the degree we should have at the time that power was sold.

Certainly with hindsight we know we should have henefitted more. However, I will grant the opposition or anyone else 7048

June 10, 1974 Tape No. 1732 NM - 5 the fact that at the time the engineering and the financial performance of the principals were indeed magnificent achievements. The individuals involved, the late Mr. Don McFarland, Donald Gordon, Henry Borden, all the other gentlemen_who headed this great organization deserves every credit in ·the -world, Anyone who has had the fortunate experience of visiting Churchill Falls realizes that the engineering achievement taking place in our province is something physically in itself literally to be very proud of. However, that is not what we are discussing here today, Mr.

Chairman . We are talking about what this particular development will mean to the future of our province. Before going into that I would like to reply to a few of the points the Leader of the Opposition brought forward. He talked about the price of money being the criteria on what the price of power will be in the future. Hell, that of course is absolutely accurate. But also what he failed to say is that the price of money is relative to any source of power, not just hydro but also nuclear, thermo or any other.

When we talk about the price of power or the price of mone1,,we are talking about the price of any source of power. So as long as the world needs energy, Mr. Chairman, the price of monev is relative to any source of power itself. Before this debate is over the Minister of Finance will establish the price that has been negotiated with the Bank of Nova Scotia for the cost of money in the terms of that loan. That will be done when he speaks next. That was one of the questions the Leader of the Opposition was very concerned about.

Also the generation of revenue, repayment possibilities,will be discussed by the Minister of Finance. The other point that the Leader of the Opposition made,that we paid too much, well that Mr. Chairman, has to be quite a ridiculous statement because it is very difficult for anyone at this point in time to say that we have paid too little, too much,and given without the information it has to be an opinion only. Where did the figure of $160 million come from? That will also be explained by the Minister of Finance in his wind-up remarks when we break down exactly how we 7049

June 10, 1974 Tape No. 1732 NM - 6 arrived at that figure and why we were prepared to pay it. During this debate we have heard a great deal aho11t the Lower Churchill,,necessary for the development of our province, when I say the development of our province I am talking about the island part and Labrador. The one thing that seems to have gotten totally out of wack, Mr. Chairman, is the cost of alternative sources of energy. Now energy is the life-blood of any society, industrial society or with any aspirations to be an industrial society.

The alternatives are very simple, 'l.- have three : Tht:rmal oower, based on oil supplied,and we know what that is in world cost today. l-/e cannot possibly depend on a source of fuel for a thermal plant based on the middle East philosophy, the OPEC nations.without some degree of skepticism, possibly worry because we have absolutely no control over what the oil producin~ countries of the world are going to charge for their product. Secondly,the other possibility in the thermo field is through coal, fire furnaces.

With the amount of coal that would be required to supply Newfoundland in the future, I think twenty ships would he needed, at 50,000 tons,regularly supplying coal. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, the area required to land coal to fire the thermo plant would be bigger than any industrial base that could possibly be seen for the province. I suppose it is a great labour-consumer,unloading coal. The arithmetic of it, in the analysis, just does not add up. The third possibility, which is a possibility, is a nuclear installation.

A nuclear plant, unfortunately because of the size of our province and the size of a nuclear plant, the minimum size is 1,600 megawatts. That is just too big as a one-shot element into the system because if anything happens to anything as large as that, it means that the whole system goes out of whack.

There is no flexibility, there is no regional grid, there is absolutely no security in establishing a nuclear plant and it has been proven by authorities.outside of government and inside, both governments for that matter, that a nuclear plant of the minilllUIII size is,unfortunately I suppose, too large for our province. 7050

June 10, 1974 Tape no. 1732 Page 7 Also nuclear plants are open to the varying costs that happen throughout any area where one has to have uranium mined, where one has to have labour involvement, where one has to have any­ thing that can escalate, factors that can esclate. A nuclear plant is a much more susceptible thing to this than hydro would be, which is probably the most secure and stable of all the sources of energy. Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition also mentioned that we have not explained what we have done. I suppose in infinite detail, this is true.

There is one thing that we have explained and the people of this province know it and that is that we have taken back a resource which is critical for the future development of our people. That does not need any great specific detail. We have taken back a resource which is the birthright of our people. We have taken back a resource or we have negotiated to get back a resource which is probably the only tool that can develop our province for our people in the manner which they deserve. If the opposition do not realize that, I would say, Sir, that they are one of the few groups in the province who do not.

I would like now to review what the plans of this government are,in general- in some cases and specifically in others. I I think the past has been ably reviewed by the Minister of Finance, leading up to what happened at the Upper Churchill with the Government of Newfoundland, Quebec Hydro and others. The technical review was made, I believe thoroughly,by the Minister of Mines and Energy, outlining the various ways and means that energy can be delivered to our province and also in spelling out the alternatives·whicn are unaccep~aoJ.e.

Sir, I would like once again to mention the basic principle underlining this government's decision to purchase the shares in the Churchill Falls Company and also to take over the future hydro development in Labrador. As I have said 1 we want to control our own resource, a resource which is so vital that it has as a matter of policy to be implemented and developed in the best interests of our people. Our future, our total heritage in 7051

June 10,1974 Tape no. 1732 Page 8 this province is one where we cannot allow that one article, energy, which is so critical today, to be used for any one other than for ourselves. As I mentioned previously, it is our birthright. Energy in this province is vital for our survival. Energy is probably the one single factor that is a tool that can be used for the future development of our way of life arid for a better way of life. By developing the hydro electricity in Labrador and using it throughout our province, it gives assured security and prosperity by the power coming to this island.

I think we should make one thing very clear here, and it particularly concerns the Members for Labrador South, Labrador North and Labrador West,and that is that it is not the intention of the government that power should come to the Island of Newfoundland, that Labrador should be the Saviour of the island part of the province without any of the benefits themselves. That would be totally wrong. I am sure it would be totally intolerable for the people of that area.

Labrador has to be developed and be the beneficiary of its own resources as much as is possibly able to be done,taking into consideration the shortage of population in one context, if we are talking about massive development and the economics of the winter season for shipping and the other things that go with it. However, I think it can be said and said very clearly that the energy rate that would be available in Labrador would be such as to attract industry which would more than compensate the people who are 7052

June 10, 1974, Tape 1733, Page 1 -- apb Afternoon I suppose presently living in that part of the province and also probably a great many more. I think the economic future of Labrador is probably more · secure than any other part of our province. The Burin Peninsula with its fishery has a secure future. Labrador with its resources, I would say probably has a much more outstanding future. I think it ~sour responsibility as a government, Mr. Chairman, to accept that challenge and to make sure that it comes about. The people of our province I suppose in the end analysis are the chief customers.

That is not a very glamourous group to pick off megawatts. That is not a group who I suppose hy the economic index in Ottawa can be classified as a triple ''A" rating when it comes to paying their bills but the fact is,that one and probably - well not probably, it is the major reason, The major reason whv the energy has to come to this province is:

(1) To create jobs through economic development so that people can go to work but more importantly and much more importantly is so that the people themselves can have a secure source of power in their homes,for light, for electrical apnliances, for all those amenities that go with modern society,so that these people can have these things at a staple secure rate when other places in North America and other places in the world cannot possibly hope to have the same thing. That may not be a very glamourous customer but that happens to be a very important customer.

Of course it will attract new industries to our province,which I shall talk about in a moment. If we do not bring it here, Mr. Chairman, what is the alternate for our people? Out at Holyrood now, the thermal plant we have there is producing power well in excess of twenty mils. Our alternative is to add more of the same. First of all the customers. as I said, will be the people first, new industry second.' Surplus power will be sold to Quebec• I will talk about that in a moment.

The fact is that if we have to hang our hat on developments such as the Holyrood thermal plant,we have no future in this province economically to combat inflation, to combat the cost of living, ne just do not have anything that will give our people a better deal from the resource we have. 7053

June 10, 1974, Tape 1733, Page 2 -- apb Afternoon The customers which the opposition and others are worried about and I think justifiably, are the people first, new industry second. Surplus power for a short period of time will have to he sold to Quebec Hydro. I think that is indentified, accepted and in our talks with ~uebec it has been accepted by them. It has been established, by the way, Mr. Chairman, unlike what was said here today, that the present lines going into Quebec can accommodate surplus power, certainly to the amount that we are talking about.

The opportunities that are going to be available to our province economically will take time. No one is saying they will not. They are not going to happen tomorrow morning. These examples that I have been told that I have given in Corner Brook are examples only, Mr. Chairman. They are not announcements of specific industries. There will be many opportunities,given the power available to our province. New industries will come here. There is no question whatsoever about that. When new industries do come here,for the benefit of thP opposition or anyone else who is listening, they will pay the full rate for power.

There will be no giveaway power, there will be no subsidization of power, there will be the development of an economy, the development of a province. The full rate will be charged bt>cause with our deep water, icefree ports, with the geographic location, not exactly midway between Europe and the Northeastern United States but very close to it, with a comparatively secure poljtical climate, with secure power, with the geographic location that we have, with having several of the very few icefree, deep-water ports in North America, there is no question, Mr.

Chairman, that the poWf,r and the development will take place. There are a great many things that one can talk about on this suhject, The fact that we will sell to Quebec, I suppose, at a lesser rate than we could if it were on a long-term basis,is not to me as important as probably to others. I think what is important is that we have a recall right so that as soon as we need the power in this province we can recall it. I think that is critical. 70 5-1

June 10, 1974, Tape 1733, Page 3 -- apb Afternoon The aluminums that have been mentioned: if they pay the rate they are welcome. If they show that they are going to be a good corporate citizen;employing Newfoundlanders,that can pay the shot, fair enough! But there is going to b~ no great subsidization of aluminum just as a means to an end,because our heritage and our future are too important for that, A lot of talk has gone on about the original deal between Churchill Falls, Quebec Hydro and the Government of Newfoundland. I think it is true to say now that it has little lasting benefit to our province.

I think the greatest thing that comes out of the original deal is the message that we cannot ever do it again. We should not be allowed to do it again and we do not intend to do it again. Energy has become identifiable as an important factor in society, probably the most important factor when it comes to economic development. It is not the. intention of this government or any members of it to do anything that will jeopardize the full benefit, the absolute benefit to our people in the long haul.

It has been explained by the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Mines and Energy, I think thoroughly, but I shall repeat it, that without the hydro power of Labrador being distributed throughout our whole province, without the stability, without the cost, without the availability of that power we do not have any future as a people economically. Anything based on energy must be developed from within for the stability of it,for to base