Volum e 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THlRTY"SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBt.T OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, MARCH 8,1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 25

March 8, 1976 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 958 Page 1 - mw MR. J. CARTER: On February 16,1976 1 received my member's allowance which I am refusing. I, therefore, have a draft dated February 17,1976 for $1,050 made out to the Newfoundland Exchequer which I am placing upon the table of the House and directed to the department to which it relates. MR. NEARY: Send it over to me, will you? MR. CARTER: No, you will have to get in line. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CARTER: MR. SPEAKER: It does not prevent the rest of you from trying. The han. Minister without Portfolio. HON. R.

WELLS (Minister without Portfolio): Mr. Speaker, I am sure that members on both sides of the House were saddened on learning of the death over the weekend of Mr. Robert Wilson Shepherd who served ably as clerk of this House. Mr. Shepherd was born in Rose Blanche in 1895. His wife Margaret survives him as do his sons Reginald of St. John's, Lorne at Gander and Harry at South River. Mr. Shepherd began his working career as a schoolteacher and he taught at Bishop's Falls, Bell Island and St. John's and was appointed assistant clerk of the House of Assembly in 1953 and became its clerk in 1956. I knew Mr.

Shepherd quite well, as I am sure did many of us, and in his ten years of service to this han. Hous-e he served in a most exemplary fashion. He rettted at the end of the 1966 session. His interests were very wide, and he served in high offices with organizations of the Anglican Church and with other organizations such as the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. He was associated with the Masonic Order as well as a number of other clubs and organizations and as his hobbies he enjoyed, gardening, fishing, shooting and,in his earlier days, tennis. 250'2

• Harch 8, 1976 Tape no. 958 Page 2 - mw Hr. Wells. I know on behalf of all members of the hon. House of Assembly, who will join with me in moving that a letter of condolence be sent to Mrs. Shepherd expressing the great sense of loss felt by the House of Assembly. In add i tion to the general expression of condolence, I want to add my sincere, personal regrets, and on behalf of all members of the House, to the Shepherd family, because in losing Mr.

Shepherd this House and Newfoundland has lost a devoted and able citizen, and I am sure all members of the House will join with me and with the government in this expression. _MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HON. E. M. ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my colleagues and I would wish to associate ourselves with the motion so eloquently moved by the House Leader for the Government. Mr. Robert Shepherd was a magnificent servant at the table of this House .

And many people, Sir, in reading of the House of Assembly or coming to see us from the galleries ~ or reading and watching reports on the television and in the press, are not aware of the fact that the efficient functioning of the House in very large measure is the result of the very effective, and very, very helpful service which not only Your Honour receives, as our Speaker, but which every member of the House gets from the clerks who sit at the table. They are not often recognized. 2503

March II, 1976 Tape 959 IB- 1 }'P. rDBKRTS : They sit bet,~een the Opposition sine and the government s1.de and they ore in the midst of the debate but they ar.e not part of the debate. But, Sir,we have a very prouo tranition in this llouse of very fine service from the table. t-l'r. Shepherd durjng, M s ten ye10rs as clerk of the Rouse 1 added greatly to that tradition, anded rreatly to the very fine parliamentary tradition of the clerks and of the officials of the Rouse of Assembly. Sir, my colleagues "nd I 10re saddenerl by the neVls of his death.

He would wish to be associated "'ith the tributes \•rhich have been paid to him by the gentleman from Kilbride (Yr.. Hells) on behalf of the government. He would like to ac1d our personal condo] ences. Nany of us on this s:ide, Sir, lme~r llr. Shepherc1. lle «as a p,entleman, a Ne~rfoundl.ander j_n the hest sense of that ~10rd ,and we ,;ill all mlss hlm very greatly • ._l'R. SPEAKEP: The hon. member for T~villingate. '1~'. St-'ALLHOOD: l'r. Speaker, I join my voice to those who have spoken on the death of Bob Shepherd.

He ancl I "'ere sc.hool chums at Bishop Feilrl r;oller;e and remained personal friends throughout most of hi.s life. I had the pleasure and the honour of proposing him for h1s various posHi.onB at that table. I am proud of the fact th10t ,,,e •·Tere very cl oBe, W'lrm and 1.nti.mate friends. Bob Shepherd was truly a very puhl i c-sp:l.rited man. He was a man of r,reat ideal i.sm. He ~Jas a very keen-r.dnoec1 man. Re was n f'lan tmo hac1 h'lp:h principles and a great sense of personal honour. 1 lme'" his father,too.

His father was, I think, a head constable in the constabulary, and he Has stationed for a good '!!'any years at Bell Island. If I 11m not mistaken Bob Shepherd taught ot Ppper Island t;ove for o nuMber of years, and I think it '"as ,,nile he tauf'ht at l'pper Island t;ove,after tJe both had left Bishop FeUd College ~s students,th~t I p,ot to know him most intimately up to that time. This J-Tou!'e has lc>sr a good former servant, and Ne~rfoundland, ;~s the Leader of the Pouse has said,has lc>st a p;ood Ne,,,foundlander. 1 _ioin n1 so 1n the expression of condolence to go to hi.s famD y. 2504

rarch fl, 1976 Tape 959 l'T'. SPf:.Ai':E" : It has been moved, seconded and agreed that an appropriate letter of sympathy he extended to the family of r•r. Shepherd. The hon. ~'inis ter vHhout Portfolio. IB-2 ~'1'1. HELLS : ~·r. Spe<1.ker, I know that T speak for all 111embers of the l'ou!le Hhen J extend congratulations to ~·r. Hilliam ¥arshall, q.r. our colleague, member - sn~~ J·!ON. !'E}'BR~S: Jlear, hear! 1'-'1'. HELLS: -~ember for St.

John's East, on his appointment to the position of beinr; the first r'hancellor of the ne~1 Anglican diocese of Central Ne"•foundland. lfembers wi 11 recall that in the session, the earlier part of this session which took place i.n the FRll ,this House passed the act which separate<:~ the Anglican ciocese in Ne"•founrll:md i.nto three separate dioceses and of course that act carne into force, as I recall jt, the first of January of this year. This is the first Chancellor, r-·r. }1arshall is the first Chancellor, the member for St.

John's East U'r. r•arshR.ll) vho has been appointed under the ne>r act, and,as I say~••e certainly extencl congrntulations to him. His contribution, of course, to th:l.s l.~ouse and to the community has been very great and is very great 1 and has been over the years. I kno>r that all members wUl join ••ith ~e in expressing congratulations to hi~ at having attained this most deserven honour. HR. SPEAKE"P: l-'1' • l'ClBEP.T S : Hear, hear! The hon. Leaner of the Opposition. Mr. Speake-r, although ~'e on this side have certainly hacl our differences l-lith the hon. gentleman fron St.

John's East O'r. r•arshall), and p<lrticularly when he filled the office nov held hy the r,entleman from Kilbr],l .e (r•r. Wells), that of House Leader for the govern!'1ent, still we all learned with celight of his selecUon, his appointment by ~ishop-elect Genge and the Synod of the new c1iocese of rentral Ne~·foundland as the first Chancellor of that rl:l ocese. He 1-1ish h]rn well. T fpel that the diocese in a legal sense ls ln p:ooc1 hands as it is in a spiritual sense with Bishop- 2505

''arch S, 1976 IB-3 !'r.. POBErTS : elect r.enge 3nd his brethren in the clergy. All that I need a<l~. J feel , other than my personal congratulations to the gentleman from St. John ' s East (Yr. }'arshllll) wlshinp, him well , is to expreRs the thought that the restructurin g of the Anglican diocese has olwiously f\One ahe ad Hith Much more expedition llD<'l nuch happier result,; than the -restructurinA of Her l'ajcsty ' s Covernment four vears raRt . He:'lr, hear ! 2506

March R, 1971' Tape 9fi0 PK - 1 11R. __ ~EN<ER: The hon. member for Twillingate . HR. Sl~ALLWOOD: Mr . Spenker, I had intended to raise the matter that the Leader of the House has done. !:!'.~ JlON_:_ '-mMBF.R: You can not help it. ~HL SI1ALLHOOD: I ~10uld like to add my voice to the congratulations that have been extended to the hon. member for St. John's East (Hr. Marshall).

Now that we have in the House as one of us an hon. member ,.,ho is the Chancellor of a Diocese, of a great church, T hope that his influence on all of us will be benign and that we Hill he more readily behave ourselves here, and that we will not earn his displeasure . I am sure the good wishes of all members go to the hon. memhC'r. ~1 P, . NEARY: i!e will have the Our Father. Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS Before recognizing the hon.

Leader of the Opposition, or indeed anyone on petitions, I 1~ould like to call to the attention of all hon. members the Standing Orders with relation to petitions and th~y are Standin~ Orders 90 to 97 on pages forty-seven to forty­ eight, and particularly Standing Order 92 Hhich starts off by stating "Ever y member offerinp; a petition of the House shall confine himself to the statement of the narties from whom it comes, the number of signatures attached to it and the material allegations it contains." The Standing Order goes on to say, "In no case shall such a member occupy more than five minutes in so doing, unless by permission of the llouse upon question put." It will be recalled that Thursday there ,,,as indeed a motion from an hon. member that that Standing Order be relaxed or not implemented for the t]me being.

That was done essentially in relation to the time element ~'here an hon. member wished to go beyond five minutes. It is my understandtng that in so doing the House wished temporarily and for that day to relax that particular rule, but not to repeal it, and that rule is still operative. Now I point that out because if not ~1e would all be in great danger of not knowing ~<hat the 2507

March 8, 1976 Tape 960 PK - 2 Mr~ Speaker: rules are or if there were any rules with relation to a petition. Certainly the House is master of its own rules, and the House can put in a different rule, but to repeal a rule and to substitute for it nothing else would leave hon. members in a difficult position knowing what was in order and what was not, and the Chair in an impossible position because there would then presumably be no rules.

So I draw this to the attention of hon. members and unless there is a motion to the contrary,or unless the House exercises its right to change the rules,then I will request and require that the rules pertaining to petitions be adhered to. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like, Sir, to present a number of petitions,four in all~from citizens of the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland. One of them is from my own constitutency,the district of the Straits of Belle Isle, three of them are from the district of Baie Verte-White Bay.

The member for that district is at home with the flu, as I gather there are a number of other members.'! am told the Minister of Finance is under the weather or under the influence of flu, and a number of other members I know, and public servants also come down with it, so I am presenting them in his behalf. Sir, the point of the petitions is the same in each case, the petitioners are protesting against the proposal by the government to increase by 40 per cent the rate which the Hydro Corporation, the governmed owned corporation,charges for the power which they sell to the Newfoundland Light and Power Company.

Mr. Sp~aker, the petitioners, there are about 150 from the community of Conche, in my district led by Mr. Michael Byrne,the Chairman of the Community Council in that community; from the community of Englee,which was formerly in White Bay North, but is now in the district of Baie Verte-\~ite Bay, a petition of 2508

'larch 8, 1'176. HR. ROBERTS: ... "l~ - ~ .. - .,. Tape 961 RH - 1 ahout 250 names headed hy Mr. Edgar 1-1. 1'illier,who is vice principal of the integrated school there and is the Deputy Hayor of that comml!nity, the mayor heing absent;and then two others from further south in the district of llaie Verte-1•1hite llay from Fleur de Lys and from LaScie in one case 1nn names and in the other case fifty names, making in all ~fr. Speaker, hetween ssn and 600 names on these four petitions. ~!r.

Speaker, in supporting the petition perhaps I could add a worn that is particularly relevant to the people of F.nglee and to the people of Conch. They have even a greater case, Sir, against electricity increases,in my view, than do anybody else because their electricity,as with so many of the people in Northern Newfoundland, in all of Labrador except Churchill Falls and the communities to the lvest, Labrador City and the city of Hal:Jush., all of those people have electricity provided for them that is generated by diesel power.

The rates are significantly hir,her to begin with than are the rates which are charged for hydro power. Of course, the rates - I think they are eoualized to the first 500 kilowatt hours but after that they climb very rapidly. It is, I think, very unfair to these people. They are being heavily subsidized now by the Government of the Province. I do not have any figures, but diesel power is not being sold on a cost recovery basis ~rhereas hydro generated power, I believe, is t or at least that is the theory which underlies the rate structures.

Even given that fact, Sir, these people in Northern Neorfoundland and in Southern Labrador, many of '~hom have lo,~er incomes - they have a limited season for the fishery: they have limited access and alternate means of employment and they are being asked to pay a higher rate for electricity to begin with. Now if this increase goes through, an increase will be even more burdensome on them. Nr. Speaker, I support the petition. The prayer of them is tl1e same as that which have been presented in a number of petitions presented in this House in the last two or three days.

I would urge the government to give them every possible consideration and I \Jould urge the government to insure that insofar as possible the prayer of these petitions is heeded 2509

March 8, 1976. tiR. ROBERTS: Tape 961 RH - 2 and that these people do not have to face even greater increases in electricity costs than they have had to live with in the last year or so. I present them, Sir, to the House. ~IR. SPEAKER : Are there any further comments on this petition? The hon. llinister of Hines and Energy. HON. J.C. CROSP.IF: 11r. Speaker, we of course will be glad to receive this petition and give it every consideration.

As the hon. gentleman men­ tions, in places like Conche and Englee and others where there is diesel power supplied by the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commissions through the Rural Electricity Authority,there is already a very, very large subsidy. I believe when the estimates of the House of Assembly for the year that is just concluding now, the cost of the subsidy in the rural areas where they now have diesel power is something in the order of $8 million to $9 million. In the estimates to come before the House for next year this will be in the order of $11 million. So that is - }IR.

SHALLWOOD: Can the hon. minister say how many communities are left on diesel power? }IR. CROSBIE: I cannot give you the exact number of communities, Mr. Speaker, hut there still are a considerable number of communities supplied by diesel power, such as Ramea, Gaultois, Burgeo, Englee, Conche, Goose Bay-Happy Valley area and there are a large number of others. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I said there is already a large subsidy. The rate in these areas for the first 500 kilowatt hours of energy used a month is the same as that in hydro areas.

Hhen the usage surpasses 500 kilowatt hours a month the rate increases as it must, Mr. Speaker, if we are not to run into just fantastic expenses in buying new diesel generating plants and in meeting the operating subsidies. The amount of 500 kilowatt hours a month is the amount normally used to heat a house and provide hot water. ~-'J HON. ~IBER: To heat? '!R. CROSBIE: I am sorry, not to heat, to provide light and hot water 'H~ating and not electric heating for a house.

If the rates do not increase as you g0 heyond the 500 kilowatt hours a month, the usage in these areas ~ill simply go un hy a tremendous amount because of the subsidy and there is no ~~ay we can keep up ~dth the increase in diesel units and the like that :_s re<]uested. This whole matter, I am sure, will be debated in great detail 2510

Harch 8, 1976 >n'\. C'ROSRTI': Tape NO. 962 NM- 1 later in the session. llut I _iust want to point out to the House, Hr. Speaker, there is already a very extensive subsidy. I believe that the cost of providing energy from diesel plants is certainly well in excess of twenty-five mils a kilowatt hour, In fact in some areas it is up,I believe, if I am correct, it is around 100 mils per kilowatt hour- MR . ROBERTS: You have got to be thinking about Rogan's Pond. ~ .• CROSBIE: - because of your using diesel plants and oil and this is being so1d at very subsidized rates. So it is a question of who can bear the cost.

Is the taxpayer to bear all these costs, or is the user? Is the user to be encouraged to consume as much as he likes at subsidized rates or should he be encouraged to try to conserve energy by having to pay at least some significant part of its costs? These are some of the issues. But we will certainly consider these petitions, }fr. Speaker. But?you know,there is a limit to what any government can do and a limit to what the taxpayers can be asked to bear. ·~ . SPEAKER: Are there any further comments on this petition? The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, I have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve petitions to present today, Sir. This particular petition with the wording, "~~e the undersigned wish to protest the continuing increase in electrical power by the Newfoundland Light and Power Company in Newfoundland." It is just signed by miscellaneous people from no particular part of the Province, mainly in the St. John's area. Then we have one here from Small Point, "lol'e the undersigned do stronly protest the electrical rates and request that these rates be rolled back." There are sixteen names on that petition, Sir.

Another one with eighty-four names, mainly from Shea Heights, Hr. Speaker. All originals I might add, Mr. Speaker. They are subject to scrutiny by any member of the House who may be interested in going through 2511

March 8, 1976 Tape No. 962 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: them. Thirty-eight signatures and addresses here from people - AN RON. MEMBER: We believe you, }m. NEARY: Well they are here. All the others are inside. From people in St. John's mainly, right up to my hon. friend's district of Conception Bay South (}~r. Nolan), Manuela, Portugal Cove Road, ''We the undersigned protest the rapid escalation of electricity rates." Then I have an unusual petition, Mr. Speaker. It is one of these organized ones that have been sent out, petition against electricity rate increases, to the han.

House of Assembly, the petition of ''We, the undersigned, being residents of and electors of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador humbly showeth that we protest in the strongest possible terms against the government's decision to increase the electricity rates charged by the government owned corporation by forty per cent, making a total increase of more than 100 ·per cent in twelve months.

We realize that this increase will be passed on to us whether we buy our power from Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation or whether we buy it from Newfoundland Light and Power Company,that many people will suffer hardship if this increase is permitted and we therefore petition the government not to permit this increase. And your petitioners as is duly bound will ever pray," This is rather unusual, Sir, in as much as it is signed on behalf of the people of Burnt Islands, in the district of LaPoile, by a eommittee of Concerned eit.izens, and it is signed by Chairman of the Committee, Gerald Farrell.

It is one of the petitions sent out by the Leader of the Opposition,! understand, returned to me. I have another one here, Sir, 'ldth eighteen names, forty-three names, forty-three names, forty names, but anyway, Mr. Speaker, I am not going to delay the proceedings of the House. The petitions are still pouring into my office, Sir, the letters, postcards, telegrams are still pouring in as a result of this great crusade that I started several weeks ago and I am very happy to present these petitions.

Sir, I must say that I am not encouraged by the remarks made by the ~inister of Mines and Energy, It may also interest the Rouse, Sir, 2512

'larch 8, 1976 Tape No. 962 NM- 3 lo'l!. NEARY: to know I saw one member being astounded recently by the fact that the Public Utilities Board, any decisions that they make, any of their preceedings do not come under the An·ti-Inflation Board . Well, Sir, that is ~ritten into the legislat~on that was passed by the Government of Canada, that no Crown Co~oration, no Public Utilities Board come under the Anti-Inflation Board. I do not know if members are aware of that or not.

That is why, Sir, that I say that we should keep, I agree with Wick Collins, ~e should keep the power in the hands of the politicians and not pawn it off on some Crown Corporation or the Public Utilities Board. ~~. WELLS: Point of order, please. This is now a debate. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been made. Order, please: The bon. minister has raised a point of order that the hon. gentleman's remarks are tending to debate and that in fact is the case. 2513

March 8, 1976, Tape 963, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further comments on this petition? The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. 'IR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, we are positively delighted to ~ccept these petitions also submitted by the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary). We do not discriminate against any of these petitions because they come in on a form that supplied to the public by the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! MR.

CROSBIE: We know that he was bery busy during the interregnum from December to now sending out a standard form petition to every community requesting that the people write in and protest the increase in power rates, and we are glad to see that his actions are bearing fruit. As far as the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is concerned, Mr. Speaker, this great cause that he is leading is not a new cause. I think this is a cause which originally came in with Adam and Eve. when they struck their first cold season. They had exactly the same point of view as the hon. gentleman.

They did not want to pay for the cover they needed for the cold weather. ~IR. MURPHY: Make the announcement. MR. CROSBIE: So there is nothing new. I have an announcement to make, that 1Mr. Neary' leads in petitions 79 to'Mr. Roberts' 68. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CROSBIE: I am sure this is going to be a very hot • compet\tion. I am glad also to see, Mr. Speaker, that the poor member '.l for L~Poil' (Mr. Neary) has now to hide behind the well-known columnist, Wick Collins. Any member in this house who has to depend on Wick for an argument is in sad and slack shape indeed, MR. SPEAKER: Order!

Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. HR. SDIMONS: Mr. Speaker, I should like to rise in very hearty support of the petitions so ably presented, so ably counted4 2514

"'. I r ·~·I ('· ·r - March 8, 1976, Tape 963, Page 2 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: by the member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary). We know he can count to at least twelve. That has now been verified without doubt. There is no question about it. We also know that he has a petition from his own district,and that should be one for the record too, Mr. Speaker. I waited for the unusual punch line as to what would be unusual about getting a petit i on from Burnt Islands, but I think that is what is unusual, the fact that he got one. Well,he did, Mr. Speaker, and I particularly want to support the petition from Burnt Islands. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there has been a lot of talk about prepared and unprepared petitions and so on. Let me say that to my knowledge I presented a couple of thousand or three thousand or so names altogether here on behalf of the persons who had signed those names. To my knowledge there was no shotgun approach any- where. They all signed quite freely without any arm twisting whatsoever. I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition made it easy for me by preparing the petitions and perhaps in that respect, Mr. Speaker.- MR. CROSBIE: Someone had to make it easy for you. MR.

SIMHONS: Yes I agree with the Minister of Mines, someone has to make it easy for me. It is very hard for me. It is all right for him, He has a staff of people to back him up and do his work for him. I have to do mine for myself. MR. CROSBIE: Count them every day and the like. MR. S IMHONS : Mr. Speaker, I am rather happy that I had the petitions prepared because you see it made it a lot simpler for my people who want to protest this outrageous increase to do so.

Whether or not our form of solicitation - if you want to introduce that term - was by the printed word as opposed to the open line programmesw Well, you know, I cannot see the merits or otherwise of either but they both achieved a purpose, and the purpose was that people who very much wanted to protest the outrageous decision by Cabinet in December are tieing it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to the hon. gentleman that he is now getting into the area of debate. 2515 '8 t{:l~l!W

March 8, 1976, Tape 963, Page 3 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: I shall try to restrain myself, Mr. Speaker. I heartily support the petitions, the prepared, solicited and unsolicited versions, even the surprise petitions that he has from his own district. I heartily support them and I hope that the net result of their haYing been presented so ably by him today will help wake the government up, shake the government to its senses. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: Are there any .further comments on this petition? Are there any further petitions? The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present a petition on behalf of 341 voters in the community of Port au Port West, Aguathuna, Felix Cove. The prayer of the petition is as i6llows: "We the undersigned taxpayers and voters of the community of Port au Port West, Aguathuna and Felix Cove humbly pray that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador rescind the previous decision to incorporate the above mentioned communities into a town council and initiate procedures ~ich will culminate in the election and establishment of a community council." Mr.

Speaker, this petition is signed by a staggering 82 per cent of the voters of the above mentioned community. At present the town of Port au Port West is a Local Improvement District. Last Fall the councillors of this town asked the Department of Municipal Affairs to give them elections and the department decided to incorporate the area into a town council. None of the residents in the area knew that this had happened until the Minister of Municipal Affairs wrote to a resident of the area, Mr. Max Snow, in response to a earlier petition from that community. He told Mr.

Snow that the trustees of the municipality had requested that the status of the area be chanRed to a town with an elected council. The minister further informed Mr. Snow that the request had been approved by the Lieutenant Governor and arrangements were being made for the election. The 2516

March 8, 1976 Tape no. 964 Page 1 - 1IIW M:r. Hodder. residents had heard nothing until this point, and they were alarmed, because they were not consulted about the decision either by the trustees of the Locai .:Emprovement District or by the department of Municipal Affairs. As well, Mr. Speaker, the people felt that a town council was not what they wanted. In an attempt to inform the residents about town councils and other forms of local government, I contacted the Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs, and he sent Mr.

Colbourne of that department to explain to the residents about a town council and to explain the alternatives. This meeting was attended by 126 voters of the community, which is a very large turnout for such a small community. Mr. Colbourne explained the various forms of local government to the residents and answered their ·questions for some two and one-half hours, and at the end of that time the people asked for a vote to show their preference, and 112 people voted for a community council rather than a town council. After that they circulated this petition. Mr.

Speaker, the residents of Port au Port West, Aguathuna, Felix Cove, understand the alternatives open to them. They feel that the community council concept is the most managable and democratic. Mr. Speaker, it is my sincere belief that no other type of council will work in this area at present as the citizens are determined that this is the best form of local government for them. It is of great concern to me that the community get the type of government they want. At the moment the situation there is far from desirable.

The residents want a form of local government where they can participate in the decision making and one where they· will be better informed as to what is happening in their area. I wrote the minister to this effect on January 27, but I have not received an answer. The meeting mentioned above was held on January 25 and the people have not received an answer. A copy of the petition was sent to the Department of Municipal Affairs on February 2, 2517 .

Harch 8, 1975 Tape no. 964 Page 2- mw Mr. Hodder. and no answer has been given yet. I urge the Minister of Municipal Affairs to go out and meet the people of Port au Port West, and I further urge them to give them an answer quickly. I ask, Mr. Speaker, that this petition be referred to the department to which it is concerned. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. B. PECKFORD (Minister of Municipal Affairs): Mr. Speaker , just a few comments on the petition presented by the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder).

I should point out that a number of comments mentioned in the petition as to responses to the petition sent in or to letters and so on, I think some of the comments made are not correct and valid ones. Response has been sent out to Mr. Snow and other people involved.

Members of the Department of Municipal Affairs have been out in that area since the dates that you have mentioned in your petition, that the hon. member mentioned in his petition. aad also to point out that under the legislation governing incorporations or changes of municipal status from a local improvement district to a town council or some other form of local government, it is not necessary, and there was no illegal manoeuvres attempted or done by the Board of Trustees of that Local Improvement District.

Under the act the Board of Trustees have the right to apply to the Department of Municipal Affairs to have their municipal status changed to a town council. If that then is approved the Board of Trustees are notified and then proper election procedures are implemented by the Board of Trustees in line with the Local Government Act, which, I think, stipulates that six or seven public notices must go up in the community, nominations are held and an election of seven town councillors ensues, and you have a town council.

There is some implication in the petition that the people were not informed that the Board of Trustees were going to change the municipal status. Well,technically and legally speaking the Board of 2518

March 8, 1976 Tape no. 964 Page 3 - mw Mr. Peckford. Trustees, under the act, d:id not have to inform the people. It would be better for them to :inform the people that they were goin.g to change the municipal ata .tua. I-t would be :in keeping with all common sense, I suggest, that they :inform the people that they intended-to change the status of the municipalities from one of an LID to a town coun~il. But legally they were not obliged to do so.

It was in their own beat interest to do so, but if they d:id or if they did not, you know, ~egally they were okay, The whole question of change of municipal status from a local improvement district to a town council as it relates to the Local Improvement District of Port au Port West, Agpathuna, Felu Cove, as it relates to Summerford, a11d as it relates to a number of other LID1 s who are now petitioning for other kinds of municipal councils other than ·town councils, will b.e cleared up within the next twenty-four hours, and I will be informing by telegram the peaition of the Department of Municipal Affairs, the position of the government, on this very current issue. 2519

}'ar~h 8, 1976 Tape 9fi5 >m SPEAKEr: Are there any further comments on this petition? Are there any further petitions? The bon. mewber for Terra ~ova. YP. Ll'SR: }'r. Speaker, I beg leave to present two petitions IB-1 from two communities in my d:!.strict, the ~ommnnit:f.es of Port Blandford and Terra Nova, 117 people, again protesting the recent a~celerating costs of e]e~tri~ity. In supporting this petition, ~r. Speaker, I ~7:1sh to point out that I do. not think the people of this Province can absorb further increases in the cost of ele~tri~ity.

The prayer of this petition is that the government refrain from imposing further increases on electri~ity in this fis~al year. I ask that this petition be placerl on the table of the House and be referred to the appropriate cepartment. 1"1'. SPEAKE!> : Are there any further ~omments on this petition? Are there any further petitions? The hon. meMber for Bellevue. NR. CALLAN: ~·r. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the voters, the people of r.hapel Arm in the district of Bellevue. This petition is not unlike the dozens of others that have been presented over the last couple of days.

The prayer of this petition has already been read by the member for LaPoile (l•r. Neary). However I wHl read it. 11 To the hon.

House of Assembly, the petition of we, the undersigned teing residents of and electors in the Province of Ne~.rfoundland and Labraclor humbly showeth that we protest in the strongest possible terms ap.ainst the government's clecision to increase the electricity rates charged by the government-owned corporation by lf0 per cent making a total increase of more than 100 per cent in twelve months; that we realize that this increase will be passed on to us whether we buy our power from the Newfoundland and Labraclor Hydro Corporation or "-hether we buy it from the Newfoundland Light and Po~7er Company; that many people will suffer 2520

~~~rch ~. 1976 ~lr. Callan: Tape 965 har~ship if thjs increase is permitte~; and we, therefore, petition the government not to permit this increase, and your petitioners as in duty bouncl 1-dll ever pray. 11 This petition, Hr. Speaker, is signed by 117 voters RI!d electors of the comunity of rhapel Ann. I ask that this petition be referred to the department concerned. ~'R.. SPEAKE!' : Are there any further comments on this petition? The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay D 1 ~spoir. !<T>. SJ~?-'ONS: Just once ;tgain, ~'r.

Speaker, we in the official Oppositjon want to go on recor~ as heartily supporting the petition so ably presente~ by t~e member for Bellevue (''r. rallan). ~~. SPEAKEP.: Are there any further petitions? The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay n'Espoir. ~·r. SP':MONS: ~'r. Speaker, I have several petitions aga:!n on the subject of electricity rates which T would like to have tabled. The covering letter which accompanies the petition from Corner IB- 2 Brook says in part~'I am pleased to submit the attached Jjst hopin!!

H ~r:Ul help your most thoughtful attempt in not permittin!! the government to ~rant this ridiculous increase in electricity rates!' The petition itself ar;a:ln is :l.n the wording similar to that reaC. by !'lY friend from Bellevue (Yr. rallan), a.ddressed to the House of Assembly in ,,,h:fch the prayer of the petition is that they are hoping povernment wil J. rlo something about th:ls increase in electr:l.city rates. It is signed by 241 residents of Corner Brook~ Aspen road, 55: Ei3>\; EiS; etc.

Nm·rhere in it is there any indication that they vere forcer'! to clo :It by open J f.ne hosts or anything of that nature. I think again they ~re all,one,originals, red ink, blue ink, green ink and all that. Secondly, I believe, we can assume that they did it quite spontaneously, Yr. Speaker, without any harassment from the Leacler of the Opposition or any other person who might have been leantng over them the ~ay they s:lgned those peti.tions. No, Yr. Speaker. It is time for us to get serious about this particular matte!. These are people 1vho are very seriously protesting. They are not at 2521

~'Rrch 8, 1976 Tape 965 IB-3 Hr. Simmons: -- ---- - all interestec1 in the pol:lt:lcs of the situat:ic-n. They are very O'ler:lousJ~· protest:lnp.: 1\ situation that is af.fectinr: oisaster.ously the1 r pockf't hooks. They are asking that this House take them serious] y, ancl that this House and the government in particular rlo someth:lng ahout the issue ~'hich forms the prayer of this petit:l.on. 2522

March R, 1976 Tape 966 PK - 1 Mr. Sii1Uilons: Mr. Speaker, it is also my pleasure to present a petition a~ain from Corner Brook on behalf of the Bay of Islands-St. George's Integrated School Board signed by Frank Janes, Chairman,on behalf of the Board, again protesting the electrical rates. A petition bearing a number of signatures from the St. John's Lionettes;again for the record, all original signatures as far as I can determine. A petition, Mr. Speaker, from the Kinette Club of West St. John's bearing quite a number of names)twenty-six in all, once again protesting the electricity rate increase. And the covering letter reads in

part 1 "Our club gives you every support, and hope it can help to keep this increase in electricity rates from being realized.)) Then a petition from one of the CBC locals, ~fr. Speaker, again protesting the increase in electricity rates. I do not have it totalled here, but it would look to be about probably thirty or thirty-five names. The prayer of these petitions, Mr. Speaker, is all the same.

It all relates to the outrageous electricity rates which the government gave its stamp of approval last December, has temporarily frozen it, and all of us together with these petitions are waiting to hear ~vhat the ultimate outcome of this matter will be, and whether or not the freeze will be allm.red to continue for any extended period beyond April 30. We certainly hope so. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further coi1Uilents on these petitions? Are there any further petitions? PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR.

SIMMONS: I am sorry. Is it too late for petitions? I had a petition on another subject. HR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. gentleman have leave to revert to petitions? 2523

"''arch 8, 1976 Tape 966 PK - 2 SONE HON. }\EMBERS : No. ----- ---- - HR. SIMMONS: ___ .,.. __ _ Thank you, we 1vi.ll remember that. }1R. vnliTE: We will remember that. Okay. HR. SIMMONS: Do not be so chi.ldish, boy, for Cod's sake. PRESF.NTU<G REPORTS BY STANDING ANL SPECIAl. COMMITTEES MR~___:C::R!'.:.AKER: The hon. Minister of Hines and Energy. MR. J. CROSBIE: Hhat is the matter with the hon. gentleman from wherever he is from? The hon. P,entleman should have had some help from the Leader of the Opposition there, }lr. Speaker. HR; SIMMONS: Bunkum! - -·----- }1R.

CROSBIE: I would like to table a document that outlines ------ Newfoundland's action on energy conservation, Mr. Speaker, which ~'<' presented to the Energy Hinister 's Heeting last Friday, and which I •rill not read in detai 1.

There are copies for members and for the press ,It's an Energy Conservati.on Programme adopted by the government itself which includes the revie \• and amendment of housekeeping practices for all provincial buildings, including schools and rented a ccoll'Jnodation, to examine areas ranging from cooling and heating levels, heating plant efficiency and lighting of unoccupied space, the wastage of paper and the possibilities for paper recycling, review and restructuring of purchas:!ng policies to emprasize energy conservation and lifetime cost · actually I should have read this in answer to one of the petiti.ons - becmtse ener7 y conservation is very important in view of the cost of energy.

Also consideration of new policies with respect to the purchase of compact or s~aller cars, unless there is specific justification for a larger size, Inclusion of energy costs in consideration of new building leases, so that the developers will be encouraged not to skimp }n insulation.

Issue of clear instructions that all nrovincial employees are to practice energy conservation, including observation of a maximum fifty-five mile per hour speed limit for provincial vehicles; that is, the drivers of our vehicles owned by the government are not to drive them in excess of fifty-five miles per hour. }fR. _ _B_@.f.RTS: On a point of order. l'R~EAKER: A point of order has been raised. 2524

March 8, 1976 Tape 966 PK- 3 ~!R. ROBF.RTS : '1r. Speaker, to a point of order. I understand we are now on the order of the day which is presenting reports. I have never before heard a minister refer to a report at quite the length that the hon. gentleman, the tlinister of Mines and Energy is . I would ask if it is ir. order. And I might also suggest that perhaps one way to conserve energy would be if the hon . gentleman would table the report and let everybody read it, and it will speak for itself .

If not, Sir, I submit it should have been a ministerial statement at which stage members representing groups in the Rouse would have been allowed to make a few brief comments. I would ask if it is in order for the hon. ~entleman in tabling a report to read either the report itself or a precise of it? N'R. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister without · Portfolio . MR . WELLS: It is customary 2525 I I

~'arch !l, lq7fi. ~W. • T·TF.LI,S: Tape qfi7 ~H - 1 in this House that when a minister presents a report that r.e is allowed hy courtesy and custom a few minutes to explain and to eluc:ldate the matt~rs that are in it. ~ow the han. minister this afternoon up to this point has taken no more than two or three minutes at most and I would sup.p:est that that is not an infringement of the rules in any sense, }~r. Speaker. /\~1 !TON. ~'F.l'llER: Hear, hear! Carried! ~!R.

SPEAKER : Now the point of order raised is when a minister is presenting rt report to the llouse, to what extent he may C01Tlll1P.nt on the content of that repr1rt. ~!y understandinr: is that in tablinp, the report he may give an explanation of the report, of its contents,of rJhat hon. members will find in it,hut that he may not make what would be regarded as a ministerial statement of government policy. So I will certainly recognize the bon. minister and Tvill just reiterate that the remarks in presenting a report should be one of explanation as of the contents and nature of the report.

The bon. }\inister of Mines and Energy. HR. CROSBIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In conclusion we are requesting energy conservation suggestions from all departments and employees of the government. So there are copies here for the hon. r,entlemen to peruse. ANSHF.RS TO Olll'STIONS FOR m!ICH NOTICE HAS BEPI CIVF.N: (See index) HR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Transportation and Communication. ll0N . J. }fORGAN: l"r. Speaker, to prove I took seriously the comments made by the han. p,entleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) last Friday - ' !R.

SMALLWOOD: Kindly remarks. lffi. ~!ORGAN: - today I h.ave some information for the same bon. gentleman, in reply to questions 440, 445, 434, !133, 412, 423, 446 and 444. ~ffi. ROBERTS: Hell done. SOME RON. ME!·IBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. 2526

. \" "'\l'" Harch il, 1CJ7fi. Tape 967 RH- 2 HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I want to refer to t1•o questions that were on the Order Paper,Thursday, }~rch 4 asked by the hon. member for LaPoile, question 709 and question 711. These two questions, Mr. Speaker, have absolutely nothing to do with the Intergovernmental Affairs agency listing houses sold by Memorial University and the like. We have no knowledge of that and no responsibility for it.

So if the question is in order it should be directed presumably to the Department of Education,! suppose. f)uestion 711 which asks about contracts with a certain company.· There have been no contracts by that person with Intergovernmental Affairs or even the government,as far as I know. Presumably that question should be directed to the Department of Public liorks. The hon. gentleman should table those two questions again and direct them to, as I sugge~<ted, those two departments. MR. SPEAKFR: The hon. member for T~1illingate. Hr.

Speaker, on a point of information. \~en an hon. mernher directs a question to an hon. minister and he misdirects it, it really does not apply to that minister, is it not the normal course for the minister in question to fo~•ard it to the minister to whom it does relate so that the member of the Rouse who asked the question is not put to the necessity of tabling the question again? Would that not be a simpJer method? I think that is 1•hat always was done in the past. Could that not he done a~ain? }IR. 'IUTIP!TY: Mr. Speaker, if I may respond to that point. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Hinister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. ~IR. ~'TTRPHY: PrPcerlent has established that when we did ask questions in previous years "e were answered that it did not relate to that department, we shoulrl readdress it. HR. h'ELLS: To the point of order, Hr. Speaker. '!R. Sl'EAKFR : !-/ell, actually VThat is before us now is, I think, a question from the hon. member from Twillingate. }~. h'ELLS: l<ell yes, it is the question. My understanding as the way things have been done in the past is that if it was a different department 2527

?larch P., l'l76. 'In. HJ'T.LS: 'rape 967 RB - 3 the <]nesti.oner simply addressed his question to the correct department. lifter <Jll ,it is not <1 lengthy or time consuming process, and that the 11uestion 1ms in clue course answered. Now if that is unsatisfactory, He could thinl-- in terms of another procedure. llut I think that is what has been don<> in the past. He wilJ endeavour to provine> answers ST'eedil'l'. 2528

March 8, 1976 Tape No. 968 NM- 1 ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPF.AKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR . ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, in view of the statement made by- my question,! guess,in the absence of the Minister of Mines and F.nergy- here he is. In view of the statement made by the General ~lanager of CFLCo at Churchill Falls, Mr. Burlington, that the fire '~h:l. ch occurred there on the weekend ~ras deliberately set and was an instance of arson, could the minister tell us, to begin with, J·'r.

Speaker, .1ust what steps the government are taking to protect the property there,and then,secondly,what steps are going to be taken to enquire into this incident which,as I say,the General ~·anager has termed as arson. Now it may well be the }!inister of~stice should be asked as well, or perhaps I could ask it of the Rouse Leader and one of the three of them, Sir, could give us the answers. ~·!R. SPEAKER: The han.

Ninister of Mines and Energy. }ffi .• ~: The position with CFLCo is that CFLCo is a company jointly owned by the Province of Newfoundland, sixty-five per cent roughly, and the Province of Quebec or Hydro Quebec owns approximately one-third of the company, and. it is operating under an independent and distinguished Board of Directors. The Chairman is }~r. Dennis Groom, and I think the members are, the three members representing Hydro Quebec, Mr. Roland Giroux, Mr. Yvon neGuise, another gentleman, Yr. Hanbley from Ontario, ~'r, Tompkir;s from ~!organ Stanley, Dean Angus Bruneau , Mr.

James Greene, Q.C., and, I thin k , t'r. Roland }1artin. So it operates under its own independent Board of Directors. No•' with respect to the recent troubles in Churchill Falls, we understand there is some suspicion that the recent fire on the weekend at Churchill Falls may have been caused by arson. I believe the company has brought that to the attention of the RCMP and my colleague the Minister of Justice will have some more information on that and he can give it now. But other than that that is all that we ourselves know about it, 2529

"March 8, 1976 Tape No. 968 N¥- 2 }ffi. ROBERTS: A supplementary,! guess,would be more appropriate, in view of the fact that tve are the major shareholder,and in view of the fact that our shares have cost us $160 million, will the minister undertake to make some enquiries as to whether or not steps are being taken to ensure that the property is being protected~ }"R.. CROSBIE: ~~r. Speaker, I just said that the management of Churchill Falls has brought this to the attention of t~e RCMP, and the }!inister of Justice will have more attention on it, naturally.

It is their responsibility as the managers of the Corporation to look after its property and you can rest assured that they have asked for this to be investigate and the Minister of Justice will explain what information he has. ~~. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. }"R.. HICK}~: ~r. Speaker, in further reply to the question by the bon. the Leader of the Opposition, I am advised there are thirteen members of the Royal Canadian MOunted Police presently in Churchill Falls. MR. ROBERTS: That is an increase? }ffi. HIC~Ulli: That is an increase.

The normal detachment, the normal Churchill Falls detachment carries two, sometimes three men, not more than three men. The investigation into the allegations of arson is ~eing carried out under a Staff Sergeant who has expertise in that field and also a man from the Identification Division of the. ll.CMP. I am also advised hy Chief Superintendent ~.B.~!. Fraser, the officer commanding the RCMP in Newfoundland,that the force are maintaining twenty-four hour patrols in Churchill Falls and are checking all persons in and around the site an~or property of Churchill Falls Corporation. MR. ROBERTS: And the site? 2530

~larch 8, 1976 Tape No . 968 NM- 3 MR. lUCKMAN:· And the site. MR.ROBERTS: The Corporation O'WtiS the Town. MR. HICKMAN: I realize that. And I have also ins.trueted that :rire (:ollimissioner Frank Ryan go to churchill Falls to give Whatever professional advice and assis -tance may be required in investigating the two fires. li1R. ROBERTS: The t~.•o? Mt. HICI.Ob\N: Well,there was al_so a fire in a trailer or a l!K1bile home some time ~go. 'MR. RQBE'RTS: How long ago? }{R., HICKMAN: I have forgotten how long, not too long, between two and "three weeks. The hon. member for LaPoile. 2531

~·.-.r.c.h R, 197fi Tnpe 969 TB-1 !-IT'. NEARY: ¥r. ::;penker, T "ouJ.<l like to Clirec.t a questi.on to the ''inir.ter of .lttf;tiec, S·ir. Ponlc'l the m:ln:l~'<tcr inforTI' the llo\JSe if he h.-.1': been rP<]ttf'~ter1 or if he l·nmrs if any nr1<1ition<>J r.r..Y.P, poJ ice 1-Ja,•e hr>en sent to ~t . . \nthony to protect the p.rnup from the r:reenpPac.e <·rhen they arri.ve in that Northern c.on>TI'unity? "'l'e hnn. '':lnister of Justice. "r. Spe,ker, ar;ain I rec.e:lv0f' a report this 111ornjn~ fro!'! Chief Superintenr1ent Y...TI.r'.

Fraser that there are presently seven or ei.!!ht poljce of:fic.ers stationed in St. Anthony. J'R.

T'OBEP.TS: Normally there are only three. l'T', ITJCXMAN: !le r1oes not antidpate that af'c11t:!onal men \dll be requirer1 but there <1re men in the are<t a]onr; the Hest Coast as f:1r ~onth as rorner llrook ,,,hn have been ale<ter1 ancl the necessary trnnsportntinn :Is st;m<l:lnr, bv,:lnc.luding that !!re<1t helicopter that vns presentee' tn the Province of He,,•founc1land hy the Sol :f c.~ tor C:enernl as part of the r.r.Y.P. equipment, and that they are able to transport the!" to St. .A.nthony shoulc'f this be necessary.

The Flm,•er's rove cletnchmmt and other rlet11c.hnent8 c.an be surnmonec' speedily and will he su11'1:'oned speedily if and "'hen they are required. I \vonld hope that thev uill not be reouirer1. ThC' reports that I have seen in the press indicate that the people of St. Jlnthony have absolutely no intention of hrealdnl! any lal<' but that \·lithin the confines of the la~<• and also of <lecency they intend to inc'fjcate to those Hho have proposed to col"e amonpst us that they c'o not approve of their nefarious schemes.

"-"' SPEA.l(E!': The hon. 1T'emher for r:onc.eption Bay South. ' 'r. ~pe11ker, a qnest1.on for the }ljnister of Forestry anrl Agric.uJture, nn<1 pr>ssibly this is tied in,~<•ith your pernission, ,.,ith the "inister of 'l'r;~nsportation. Either one of them perhaps •·'nu]d like to answer thjs, It is in reference to the licensinr l"f fnT!":Inr: et:u1pi"ent. T 111'1 th:!.nk:lnp- primarily in th:ls c<tse as appl ie» to my mm area •··here in some cases it is necessary for a const5tuent to bring their equipment, say, across the road to carry 2532

... .,. .-· ~·Rrch 8, 1976 Tape 969 IB-2 MR. NOLAN. on their agricultural business there and in some cases they are finding it very, very difficult because of the imposition of licensing and so on. I realize it presents a real problem in sol'te areas, and T would appreciate any consideration, representation that they might have receivec1 or any infonnation they could give us at this ti.Jne fro~ either source. P?. SPEAKEr .: The hon. l'inister of Transportation. ~il'. 110PGA.111: Yes, ~'r. Speaker, I have received a number of individual representations from farmers around the Province.

Not from organized groups but from i.ndivic1ual famers expressing their concern over the fact that they ~1ere forced to purchase third party liability insurance on tractors or equipment of that nature that they would not be normally using on the highlvays or sometimes, for example, l!'aybe once or twice a year just to use their vehicle in crossing a highwa)'· So I will be 1 over the next number of days,in consultation with yr,y collea~ue, the ~'inister of Agriculture, discussing this matter in the hope that "'e can arrange some means of where only the vehicles they are going to use, for exa!'lple, in haul:!nr in their fertilizer of trucking out their product, only these 1:.7 ill be forced to have third party liability and not the vehicles used on their own property, providing they couJd,of course,indicate to us that the equipment that He license, they must indicate to ns that they tvill not be used on the hi.gh,,·ays.

HT>. SPE/' .KET' : I' supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. !'11. POBEPTS: ~·r.. Speaker, a question for the Yinister of Tnmsportation. r:oulc the minister give us an assurance - ;mrl I have had representRtions,as have he - that in view of the fact that it is the thirty-first of Yarch that is the deadline for Jicensing vehicles in the cominf: year, could the minister give us an assurance that this administrative action which he and his colleagues propose to take,or ,,,hich he proposes to his colleagues that they jointly take, ldlJ in fact, some decision wjlJ. be taken before the end of )<arch 2533

~·nrch 3, 1976 T;~pe 969 IB-3 MR. ROBERTS: bc-cau!\e the que!\t:lon is now ur~ent. '1e havr only n.·enry-three cl11yS left for thcr.e !!'en e1trer to !>ave the prohlem resolved or else they vHJ he in hreach of the l1w liS :It no\.· stancls. !'hP. hon. "in:!ster of Transport:ltion.

"r. ~ne~ker, t here will be no urrency ~·i th rerarc•s to f:l!T':Inr cruiprnnt hl'c-an5c I aM sure there ~·il 1 nl'lt he too ll'ttcl-> f:~Tt"jnr <'Ouipr:ent in usP. pdo r to the end of !'arc!• . '"~'~ thc equipment that ,.-; 1 1 not he 1 i ccn1H~r td 11 not he f.orced to h<wc , or li cense(l t·~i thout the cm:pulsorv thirr p:trty li;~bili ty i.nsu1::rnce c r equipment th11t will probably not eo jnto tiSl' unt11 early ray t:K~Dth. But 1.n the r.-e::~ntime ve ~·ill hP tlealinst with rhe matter in the next 1\umber of 2534

~ . March 8, 1976 Tape no. 970 Page l - mw MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct this question to the Minister of Highways. Would the minister advise the House as to what plans the Department of Highways has for the reopening of that

section of the Trans·Canada Righway.in the vicinity of west of Grand Falls? A firm plan of when we ean expect it to be open and what the programme will be that will bring about the reopening? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Highways. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, funds hopefully will be approved in the estimates, and the estimates, of course, will be approved when the budget is brought before the House of Assembly, and it is a priority with my department now, and as soon as the estimates are approved and the funds allocated the work will be commencing in early Spring, very early Spring. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary question? The bon. member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Would the minister advise the House as to what the estimate cost of repatts are and whether or not the Province is assuming all the cost of the repairing of that

section of the highroad? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Highways. MR. MORGAN: The first part of the bon. gentleman's question I will take under advisement, but the latter part of the question, unfortunately the Province will have to bear the total cost of that repair to the Trans-Canada Highway. We have held discussions with the company, and they will not assume any liability for damages to the highway. MR. FLIGHT l: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: I will allow one further supplementary, and then I will recognize another hon, gentleman. MR.

FLIGHT: Would the minister indicate when that road will be open in as far as he can? At what point in the Spring? How long will it take to reopen the road? I am not being petty here, Mr. Speaker. 2535

March 8, 1976 Tape no. 970 Page 2- mw Mr. Flight. That situation right now is causing more concern in Central Newfoundland than any other issue that I can think of. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Highways. MR. MORGAN: Well depending on two things: (1) the approval of the estimates; and (2) the weather conditions which will allow the commencement of the construction season. Work will commence at the very earliest possible date at the construction season this year. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Fisheries.

Would the minister tell the House if the government or if the minister himself has made an official protest to Ottawa over the appointment of Parzival Copes to make a study of the Newfoundland fisher}'? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, we have not made an official protest but certainly through the news media we have expressed some concern with respect to Dr. Copes' appointment, and that is as far as it has gone at the present time. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgee - Bay d 1 Espoir. }fR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question really for the Premier or the Minister of Finance, and in their absence, I would like to addr.ess the question to the Government House Leader. I wonder would the minister indicate to the House whether the EPA aircraft which carried a number of government personnel from Gander to Montreal, I believe in January or early February, was it charged out of public funds, and if so if he could indicate how much was the cost and also who travelled on that aircraft trip from Gander to Montreal? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister without Portfolio. MR.

WELLS: My information is, and the hon. member is quite, of course, at liberty to check with the Premier when the Premier returns, but my 2536

March 8, 1976 Tape no. 970 Pf!ge 3 Hr. Wells. information is that that was not a charge out of public funds. As to who travelled on the aircraft I think it has been made public that the Premier travelled and one or two other public servants or ministers, I am not sure, but there is no great significance at any rate as far as I know to who travelled on the flight. And my information is that it will not be a charge out of public funds. MR. SPEAKER: Asupplementary. The hon. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary for the minister.

I wonder to his knowledge or if not to his knowledge at present, would he undertake to find out whether this transportation on the occasion we are talking about•to Montreal by EPA aircraft,- it was understood at the time the trip was undertaken to be a gift or understood not to be a charge on the public treasury at the time the trip was taken? MR. SPEAKER:The han. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: It is completely outside my knowledge and the question should be directed to the Premier. MR.. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker_, _a furthe; supplementary to the minister in the absence of the Premier. I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, if the minister would indicate to the House whether the Premier and government ministers make a practise of accepting such a gift as transportation and other similar gifts? And if so, whether this does not constitute a fairly brazen conflict of interest on the part of the Premier and the minister's concerned? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: That is not a question, Mr. Speaker, and I have no intention of answering it. MR. SIMMONS: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Order, please! The han, minister has refused to answer the question, and the han. gentleman cannot debate that point. MR. SI}fMONS: I am asking the minister to answer a supplementary. 2537

Tape t)71 RH - 1 ''R. SPEAKER: I recoRniZe one further supplementary and then Annther. hon. memher. "'R. SIMMONS: !!r . Speaker, I ~•auld wonder whet "I-ter t 11e minister would in eli c;~te to the House ,,hether to his know] Pclp.e it is a practice for the rremier and ministers to accept such gifts from private industry? "ic. ST'f.AKER: Order, please! Order, please! That is a repetition of tl1e rrevious question 1~hich the minister h~s ref us eel to answer. ' !R. SHO.!ONS: the answer. tlo way. Pave they p;ot somethinp; to cover up1 We got !~. SPEAKFR: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~m. ~TEARY: ~ l r.

Speal:er, I have a question for the Hinister of Health. Hould the 1-'inister of Health tell the House what he knows about this fake doctor who was brought into Newfoundland and then later went to the Northwest Territories? lrould the minister also tell the House if he searchecl throup.h his records to see if the work that was done I believe in the Placentia Cottage Hospital hy this fake doctor was satisfactory or what damage was done hy this fake doctor who was recruited and hroup,ht in here into lle~Vfoundland? The hon. 'linister of Health. " r.

Sneaker, I went through the files some two or three, threP or four '''""'ks ar,o. As T recall it thC' p.Pntleman to which the hon. membPr refers did indeed practice in Newfoundland in the hospital at Placentia. There was some minor work done during his term of tenure in the hospital. There have heen no complaints. He practiced for two months anrl took off to what he thought was greener pastures. t111 . SPEAKER: A supplementary question. I recognize the hon. member fo r Laroile. A supplementary question.

Could the minister indicate to tlw Tlouse 1.;hether this fake doctor did any surgery, whether it was minor surp:Pry or maior surgery,while he was on the st a ff of the Cotta7,e Hospital in Placentia? Tlicl he actually perform surRery? 2538

~1arch 8, 1976. Tape 971 RH - 2 The hon. ltinister of Hea.lth. tffi . SPEAKF.R: tffi. COLLINS: Hr. Speaker, there was some surgical measures taken of a very minor nature under the supervision of the medical officer,as I under­ stand it. MR. SPF.AY.F.R: The han. member for Windsor-Buchans. 1·\R. G. TI..IG!lT: t!r. Speaker, this question is for the han. Minister of Transportation and Communications again. Very recently the minister made a public statement that he would be visitinr, Buchans with his Deputy Minister to familiarize himself with a route, proposed route of the Buchans-Howley Jlighroad.

The question is twofold: Hhen does the minister intend to make this trip that is taken for granted that he will be making? The second part of the question is the fact that he has committed himself to do this, is this an indication that the government is indeed looking at the con­ struction of that road as a viability? Are they indeed prepared to recognize that as a viable route and will construction be considered by the government for that road, Buchans•Howley? l~. SrFAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communication. HR. !fORGAN: Hr.

Speaker, the only commitment given to the sub-committee of the ~uchans ~ask Force, comMittee on transportation, was that I would travel to the area to make myself familiar with their proposed route. l told the Task Force approximately the middle of I think it was January month I would be over in the area. The reason why I have not been there to date is because my engineers advise that it is more practical to do t!-Jat study of the area and to meet with the committee when the snow is removed from the ground hopefully by mother nature. •m. FLir-:HT: The second part of the question, Mr. Speaker. ~·nt.

SPFJ\KER: Ts it a supplementary? HR. FLI(;TIT: Yes, the supplementary is that I did not get the second pnrt of my question answered,and that is whether or not the minister is interested and the minister is indicating publicly that he would look at the route. I am asking if this is an indication that the government are 2539

'lllrch R . 197f.. "!' • 1'1. If. liT : Taoe 971 rrrcptivc t~ ti~t road, r~ the ~uilding of thnc roan? RTI - 3 ''"! . ~rfA' .. Er.: 'Ml.P. hor. . "inister of Transporratjon 11nd r.otnl'lunic~tion. '!IL HORGAN: tr . Speaker , if the decisions were all made there would be nn ~oint in ny cravetlinr. to the area to discuss th~ ~~tter with the proptc 1n th~ AreA concrrned. rm. SPJ\IIK.f'R: The hon. memher from Pogo . ~·r . ~peaker, may I direct a Qurstion to the hon. llinister of fishe ries. ~~es the minister intend to travel t~ ~t.

Anthony tomorrow to shoN the P,overnment ' s objection to this Creenpeace Foundation? 'Ill . ROIIT:RTS: H~ar, hear : l!R . SPr.AKI'.R: Th4." hon. Xinister of Fisheries. HON. H. CARTFR: Mr. Spe~ker, t have no intention of p.oin~ to St. Anthony to meet the bunch from llritish Columbia. t believe we nrohably 110ulrl he all well advised to ~ive ns little publicity to this group as possjhle becAUSP. they feed on i.e. Without puhlicity ~iven to them by the media and hv the hon . memher, T am sure that the crusade will die before It r.ets startetl. llP.ar, hear! ~11: .

SPf'.I\Kf.l'!.: TI'c hoo . member for Concepti on P.ay South . t1lL J. NOLAN: 'lr . Speaker, 11 question 2540

~'arch 8, 1976 r'l'. NOLAN: Tape 972 IB-1 fnr the hon. House Leader. Is there any consideration being given by the government,or wHl you g:f.ve cons:f.deratfon to a provincial enquiry concerning the reports given to a board within recent days concernjng optometr:fsts, ophthalmologists and so on indicating rip-offs here in Newfoundland and particularly since this has been ~oinr on for IT'ore than ten years, and table the names of those that «re at fe~11l t! ~~ . ,'OLAN: provincially. HR. SPEAKEF: ~'P . lVELL S : That :f.s the federal government.

Never mind the federal government, you can do :f.t The han. }finister •.~ithout Portfolio. Of course th:f.s is a fec'leral enquiry. In due course I suppose, }1r. Speaker, the results of it ~Till be made available to people in this Province including the government. As things stand the only thing that we have is lvhat has come out of the press reports unless some of us attended the hearing, and that is - l"R. CROSBIE: I.ike Neary. }'Jl. NEARY: I am the only member interested. HR. WELLS: That is right. That is to the effect that there have been certain payt'lents macl.e, but these ended in 1972;so we are told.

So I c'lo not think that the provincial government, that any public good would be served in the provincial government going back before 1972 to see what people clid in that particular profession or industry, ,,,hatever it :Is. But :If things are correctly being done now that is much more to the point and much more important. ~. SPEAKE~ : The han. member for Conception Bay South. }Ill, NOLAN: ~·r. Speaker, a supplementary. Would the han. minister cons:l.der the fact that perhaps the Newfoundland public should know :If they were being ripped-off before 1972 and expose the names of those responsible1 Y" .

CrflSBIE: . rp . SPEAKET': What about the federal enquiry1 The hon. r<inister without Portfolio . 2541

}~areh 8, 1976 Tape 972 IB-2 MR. WELLS: I think there is a feC.eral enquiry into this and if something is going to be shown of this nature and come out of the enquiry 1 well and good, but I cannot see any point aetually if things of this sort took place prior to 1972 I still cannot see any point in our initiating some sort of enquiry whieh would embarrass people for somethin~ four or five years, six, seven, eight, ten years past. I do not believe the puhlie interest would be served.

Hhat I think is more to the point is that whatever steps that are necessary from here on be taken to make sure that people receive proper service for the amount of money that they pay. ~!ll • SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir and afterwards the hon. member for T.APoile. !'I'. SI}'}'ONS: ~r. Speaker, J have a related question bnt for the "inister of Justice.

I lJonder would the minister indicate to the House lJhether his department contemplates any plans to introduce legislation perhap~ similar to the Ontario legislation, for example, to l'lake the l:jckl'<lcks in the eyeglass industry illej>'ll in this Province? ~!1'. SPEAKE!': The hon. ~ ·'inister of Justice. MP.. HICD!k": \.Jell, numher one, J'!r. Speaker, that would not be the preropative, I suggest, of my ministry to recommend that kind of legislation.

Secondly, ordinary prudence would dictate that before introduce any legislation we should await the outcome of the enquiry that is heing conducted by a very able eommissioner appointed by the Government of r:macla in tl1e person of Mr. Robert 1'cLellan, Q.C. '' R . SPEAKER: A supplementary? The hon. mf'ml>Pr for 1\nrreo-lll'l~' "'l'.spoir. ~'1'. SH1H0NS: Yes. I ,,,c>uld like to direct a question then to the l'inister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment.

I wc>uld like to a~k h~m whether his department is presently contemplating any such 1eg1sl<1tion to make l:jc ' " '' cks with referenee to the eyeglass inclustry ille?,al in this Province'? ''It . SPEAKEl': '~. YT'RPJIY : The hem. >'inister of Provine tal Affairs. Not to T".y knowlec'l!(e. M.y grour d:td attenrl and present 2542

~<arch 8, 1976 Tape 972 IB-3 'fT". " rrrnv: numerous briefs on behalf of people who felt they were being overcharged for eyeglass e s. nut did \~e use the worcls kickh«cks and Joan sharks and all this type of th:l.ng'? If someone could define just what a kickback is, and in lolay is it a discount that someone gets on something like this. ft~d as he quoted it,it happened before 1972. l.Je are following, we are ~-raiting the report of the full hearing.

We have presented our olJil brief, and if we feel that there are any actions that our department could take naturally we will go to the proper channels of the Justice Department to do so. ~·'P.. SPEAKE!': I will allm~ one further supplementary . Yl'. SH'J'10NS: A supplementary, ¥r. Speaker. no I gather from the minister's comments and particularly his wonderment about what I meant about kickbacks, that he has not heard the discussion that is going on in the hearings? Does he want me to elaborate on kick­ backs so I can get an answer from him? 1"11. SPEi\KEP: ~'R. sn~N s : ~IF.

SPEAKER: t1P • t-'Plll'HY : Order, please! Order, please! Is the minister - Orcler, please! Sit down Roper, go on, like a eoocl boy. Do not be making a nuisance of yourself. ~~ . SPEAKEO: Order, please! The hon. gentleman's ~uestion is not in order. The hon. member for LaPoile. l!r.

Speaker, I believe that thi.s question should be d:l rected to the t'in:lster of Intergovernmental Affairs. vlould the minister tell the House what repercussions the cutbacks, the nr-EE cutbacks are going to have on roads in Bonavista North, especially the one called the Loop Tload; what effect the cutbacks are going to have on the road construction and reconstruction on the Great Northern Peninsula, and the road in the Bay D'Espoir area? Hhat result will these DFEE cutbacks have on these three pieces of road? 2543

March 8, 1Q76 Tape 973 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of }lines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: ~r. Speaker, this matter is still under discussion with the representatives of the Government of Canada.

And, of course, we take the position that there should he no cutbacks in the amount of DREE funds made available for highway purposes in the Province during the present year, and,in fact, our submission was that the DREE cash flow in this Province during the present year amounts to some $65 million, and that is if we were just to keep up with inflation alone that the amount required for next year would be at least $80 million. The Minister of DREE was down here about two weeks ago.

He says that his budget is frozen, and he cannot spend any more than he has spent last year, t~at the most that they would spend in Newfoundland under DREE programmes in the year starting April 1, would be $65 million, and that therefore they have suggested that there should be a cutback in the amount of money they are spending under the DREE Highway.'s Agreement in Newfoundland. Well,if they maintained that position, Mr. Speaker, we will then have to deal with that situation.

But our submission to DREE is for work to continue on the Bonavista North Loop Road, for work to continue apace on the r.reat northern Peninsula Road, included in our submission was work on the road- certain paving done on the Bay d'Espoir Highway, that continuation of the road from Bay d'Espoir to Harbour Breton, certain ~oad work at Stephenville -vrhich is related to industrial development, the linerboard mill there. AN HON • f1EMBER: -------- Burgee. HR. CROSBIF.: And further work on the road to Burgee. Yes, the Minister of High~·ays is telling me - I think that is - l!R.

MORGAN: And the I.aScie Road. ----- ~m. r.ROSBIE: And certain paving on the LaScie Road. Now all that v10rk cannot be done, Mr. Speaker, unless DREE is willing to provide the amount of funds necessar y which is in excess of what was spent during the present year. So this matter is still under discussion with them. If they adhere to their position that they cannot spend on roads in this Province next year even what ~hey spent 2544

~!arch 8, 1976 Tape 973 PK - 2 'fr. Crosbie: rluring the present year, obviously some of that ~vork cannot be done, and it ~.rill have to be agreed ~dth DREE just what work will not be done despite our request that it should be done. So we are requesting that all that work be done. If it is not all done it is because the Government of Canada will not provide the funds for it to be done. It will be over our strong protest. We will be urging that it all be done.

And our decisions on what will or will not be done will be made in the next few weeks as we see whether we can encourage them to spend more rather than less in this Province. SO~ RON. MEMBERS: HeRr, hear! }ffi. NF~Y: A supplementary. }ffi. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile on a supplementary. 1-'R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the minister tell the House what form these negotiations, these protests are taking? Are they face to ~ace correspondences, telegram, telephone? Just what form these protests and these discussions are taking? MR. SPEAKER: ~lR. CROSBIE: The han. Minister of Mines and Energy.

These discussions have taken place face to face, cheek to cheek, .1owl to jo1-rl, belly to belly-with a table in between. They have taken place like that, Mr. Speaker, heart to heart, ' except l~r. Lessard's heart is little on the cold side this year because of his estimates. ~m. N E~RV: Dollar for dollar. •m. CROSE IF.:_ Dollar for dollar. MR. S ~ALLHOOD: Did the minister - 1~. r.ROSBIE: They are taking place between officials. HP. . S'-IALLW10D: Did t~e minister at one point tell ~hem to go to hell? MR. ~OSBIE: nh, no, ""r. Speaker. I am too careful, and too dipolmatic to do that.

One cannot bite the hand that partially feeds one. So­ !:~_.___BE:ARY: You should have told your Premier that when he was on national television at the Tory Leadership Convention. 2545

'ft~rch 8, 1971\ Tape Q73 PK- 3 ~· . .Q!_MRlf.:_ ~<>, llr . ~rNtl<.er. therP. are discussions goin~ on now h<>t ween our offi.cints and we hope to be able to tell the Bouse in t hP I"I!Xt - you know, with some luck to be nble to tell the J:nusc early in April just what will be clone . m. <;J'FA'{r"P.: T will allow one further question and answer. The hon . member for Conception Bay South . ~ ... 2_._ NOLAN: '·lr . Spea ker, a question for either the N.inister of T~:anspo rt at1on 01: possibly the ~lin.ister of lnt er~overnmental Affairs relatinr to the proposed road from Manuels Bridr,e up to the Arteria~ Rond.

T nm sure be>th ministers !-.now the very serious situation there on traff:lc flow 1\nd so on at various hours of the day, particularly in thl' me>rn i nr :~nd I'VC'Iti nr. T nm 140nderinr. if cj ther one of thC' minister's h:w<' any infomat1on tltey could provide on this road or if thev •·•ould perhors a~ree to provide some infomati on in the nex:t day or se> if there is any available? >'R._£ROS!liF.: It has nothinr. to do with nREE. ORDF.RS OF THE DAY 11R. IWllS: ~otion 2 , Mr. Speaker . 2546

'· ~larch 8, 1976 Tape No. 974 m~- 1 On motion of the hon. Ninister Without Portfolio, a bill, "An Act To Provide Retiring Allowances On A Contributory Basis To Persons Who Have Served As Members Of the House of Assembly," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (No. 14). On motion of the han. ~1inister of Justice, a bill, "An Act T.o Amend The Nelvfoundland And Labrador Amateur Sports Federation Act, 1972," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (No.23). nn motion of the han.

M:inister of Justice, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Quieting Of Titles Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (No.20). ()n motion of the han. Hinister of Social Services, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Child Welfare Act, 1972," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (No.l7). nn motion of the han. ~!inister of Health, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Medical Act," read a first time, crdered read a second time on tomorrow. (No .18).

On motion of the han. ~Unister of Health, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Pharmaceutical Association Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (No. 22). nn motion of the han. ~~nister of Forestry and Agriculture, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Crown Lands Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (No.2!). On motion of the han. }!inister of Forestry and Agriculture, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Development Areas (Lands) Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (No.lq). ~m. SPEAKER: Order 1, the adjourned debate on the Address in Reply. The han.

Leader of the Opposition. }m. ROBERTS: Thank you, Yr. Speaker, and may I begin my remarks this afternoon, Sir, by asking Your Honour for a ruling. It is not a hypothetical point. I suppose in effect I am raising a point of order on my own speech, a ruling with effect to the amount of time I have left. The precise point,I suppose,Your Honour,would be the Rmendment lvhich we are now debating'which I have put down as a motion of lack of confidence in the government, although it is not the usual 2547

''arch 8, 1976 lape No . 974 ''R. ROBET'TS: '1-:0t:dinr, and I went into my reasons for that at some length . It is not the usual wording of condemning the government for a number of reaso ns and sins of omissio n and commission but I submit it i s a motion of non-confidence and I would ask for a ruling because if it t s,of course,as I understand it I have an unlimited amount of time accordirg to the rules of the House. If it is not I have only nine ty mj nutes whic'h ~~ould have begun as of t he moment I moved the amendment . So the matter is not 2548

March 8, 1976 Tape no. 975 Page 1 - 111W Mr. Roberts, entirely academic. I think it is quite practical. I do not know if hon. gentlemen opposite wish to speak to the point, but I am not sure that I made it entirely clear on Friday. At least, reading the weekend papers, I am not sure whether they grasped the point. MR. WELLS: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Certainly, and the Leader of the Opposition will have to clarify this, I took it to be a motion of non-confidence. This is what I took it to be. Maybe I was mistaken. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member.-for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order.

In my opinion, Sir, the amendment or so-called amendment put by the Leader of the Opposition is in actual fact not an amendment at all . An amendment, as I understand it, Sir, is supposed to do something. This amendment, Sir, is completely meaningless and empty and it does not do an~thing to the Throne Speech. It does not - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. gentleman is now commenting upon the import or his opinion of the amendment.

The point of order which has been raised is in effect whether the Leader of the Opposition has unlimited time and that is related to whether his amendment is an amendment of non-confidence. The bon. gentleman's opinions on the amendment are separate from his opinions on whether the thinks the amendment is a motion of non-confidence. If there are no further points to be made, then I will rule on it. It is an important matter. If any other hon. member wishes to make a submission, I will hear it. The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, I have just been thinking over in my mind what kind of an amendment could be made to the motion

Narch 8, 1976 Tape no. 975 Page 2- mw Hr. Smallwood. that an Address in Reply be presented to His Honour for the gracious speech~ That is the order before us. Now any amendment at all made to that is surely automatically,or almost automatically,a motion of lack of confidence in the government. HR. ROBERTS: ~ ffi. SHALLWOOD: That is as I understand it.

Oh, any amendment - that our words brought in here, in effect, by the government, in effect, not actually, but in effect brought in by the government that so and so and so, that all words after the word 'that' be striken out and that there be substituted certain other words. Surely 'that' -no matter what follows after the word 'that' then, no matter what words are in the amendment, it is a motion of lack of confidence in the government. MR. NEARY: If you vote for the amendment, you are voting against the government. MR. SHALLWOOD: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: I thank han. gentlemen for their submissions.

It is my opinion that the amendment is in fact, a motion of non-confidence . I agree that practically any amendment to the Address in Reply would be by its nature a vote of non-confidence, certainly one which replaces all the words after 'that'. One could conceivably perhaps think of an amendment which might add something, which may or may not be, but that is not the case before us here.

This amendment, which asks the House to replace all the words after 'that' and substitute something else is, in my opinion, an amendment of non-confidence and this, of course, means that the Leader of the Opposition does have unlimited time in debating it. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~ffi. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It was an unusual way, I guess, to establish the point but I think it had to be done. I am not sure whether you could ever move an amendment that would be an amendment that would not be one of non-confidence as the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) pointed out. The only one 2550

Harcb 8, 1976 Tape no. 975 Page 3 - 1IIW Hr. Roberts. I cduld think of would be, you know, to add the words in sgmething like, "This House co.mmends the ministry for their wise or beneficent a~stration of the Queen' ·s affairs." But tlle point I wanted to make, Hr. Speaker, is that this is a non-confidence ·matter.

I .t is phrased affirmatively and the paint which I made when I spoke on Friday - and I have had a look at the R:ansards and, the Hansa:i:ds bear me out - is that . it is not in the usW;tl form, and I explained at some length w4yt in our opinion on this s1.de, an amendment in the usual form but not the right and proper amendment at this til!)e. But let it be understood that if this amendment were to carry, the gover~nt wo.uld be forced, the Premier .would be forced to wait upon His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor preswua.bly to advise a dissolution, but in any event the gove~ent would have to leave office 2551

~larch fl, lq7(:i. ·m. r:onpn:.: RF - 1 ~e~AnRP it ts a mAtter of confidence. Mr. Spen~er, on Frtday I her:an a few rt'marks on tl,e suhiect of the financi;tl trouhles at Come l'y Chance. 7 h<' <cent1 eman from St. John's r:ast ('lr. Harshall) raised a point of nrnE'r l'tnn t,ere ~·Te>re some suhmissions to t11at nc>int. Tl,en Your Honour n:.cle :1 ruUnP to the efff'ct that 1 cou]rl speaY. .~hout ro.,...e P.y Ch<mce even in the li.r:rt of tl1e filet th'lt thP. hankruptcy netitinn lly the flta!<a firm js new this clay, T heJievP., hefore the Supre>me Court. Tn fact T would r:uPss the he:.rin" is nm·• on.

It T->egan, 1 hel.ieve, 11t thre>e of the clocJ.· :mn [1rc>sumably carry on nntil fivP. or five thirty, hoHever long the ;urlP,E> l•f'e!'r; court and presumah 1 y continue tomorrow ann may he even tl1e day after. P.ut my understanding of tl1e situation is that I am not hreachinr: the sub­ ;uclicP. rulr> if J mak~> comments on it provi<1ed 1 do not p,et into the merits of thf' m:qtter 1,efnre the courts.

The merit of the matter hefore the court .~s J understand it is ,.rhether or not the petition of the Atal·a firm is a snnnd nne <mel 9hetJ,er or not th"t their request ,,.hi ch is that the Provincial P,<"fi,.,Jnf'; "nd !JP.,•founc11and F.cfi ninf';, t~m companies mmen hy the Sl-taheen '1.:1 tural Resources lnterests, that companv be de>clared T->an~-rur>t. Fell, I cxpressC'cl no opinion at all on that, Sir.

The court are chargecl '.rith rleci clin<> th;~t issue> "nn tl,ey '.ri] J clecirle T lHlve no douht after full an<\ cxhaust1ve r>xrtmination ,,,, a1J p~rties ,.,,,o ''ave a right to appear and vii)] thE'n r.C'm!C>r tl,rir ckcis:ion accordinp. to the statute ]m<T and according to thr prE'ceclen ts v.'hich govern in this case. f.ven so, ~!r, SpeaJ.:er, 1 think there j s a part of a portion or aspects of the Come Tly Chance financial problems which are relevant to the Throne S;>e<"ch o:lehatc pArti.cularly in ] ight of the amendment which I h:we moved. The amendment whic, I have moved, ~'r.

Speaker., calls for two actions by thE' government. It cal] s for the p:overnment to reaffirm their faith in thr Province. I think that is Harranted and merited p11rticuJ arly in vie~., of t lw statemc>nts l•l'~ic'T leadinR memhers of the Tl'ini strv have made of late~ <md f:econdly, "nd nuch more im,..,nrtantly because I heli .eve everybody will agree on tl1e first p:~rt of the motion that is SOT'lethi_np: to which we can al J sul--scr1he, we shoulcl all subscribe, secondly and more importantly in that sensr, t~e sense J h11ve ·h1st 'lpoken out, to Jay he fore the House a statement 2552

:Varch S, l'l 76 . HP.. l'Ollf.!l.TS: Tape C)76 Rll - 2 of their goals for the economic developments of this Province and a statement of the plans by which they hope to attain these goals, both in economic development and of course in all other aspects of development.

"O"'• Sir, 1 had on Friday made mention of the fact that one of the issues thilt is puzzling about the Come Ry C'hance situation is the fact that in at least thrP.e important aspects of it we have directly conflicting state­ ments hei.np.; made on the one hand by the Shaheen Interests and their spokesman, and on the other hand by people representing the government or representing some of the secured as opposed to unsecured creditors. In fact the unsecured creditor, the principle one being the Ataka Company, I do not believe has made a statement, publicly. If so it has not come to my knowledge.

There have heen a number of statements made primarily by the government who appear on this interest of course as the second mortgagees holding, I believe, about $41.5 million worth of secured debt. I believe the F.CGD people have also m~de a statement. Hr.

Speaker, the three statements which are diametrically opposed, and I think it is worthy of bringing them to the House and I believe they must he answered and in my opinion none of them really affects in any way the matter nm·• before the court - the first statement was whether or not thP holders of the first mortgage ~~o are Klienwort,Eenson and a syndicate of British banks I believe they are all Rritish - hut a syndicate of banks hE'arled up hy the Klienwort,~enson firm operating under the protection of a guarantee hy the Export Credit Guarantees Department, the ECr.D, the Export r.redit Guarantees Department of the Government of the United Kingdom, whPther they had offered or had agreed to share their position under the first mortgap.;e with any person advancing more funds to the refinery.

On one hRnd we have a statement that that offer was made. HR. SHALLHOOD: Not any person, Specifically A taka. MR. ROBF.RTS: The hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) says ,\tal:a. Hell , T h~ve to he careful, Hr. Speaker, hecause I do not want to p,et Into the merits of the matter which is now hefore the Supreme Court. The ECG]) ~eople have been nuoted in the newspapers as saying that they h>1n never 2553

}larch 8, 1976, Tape 977, Page 1 -- apb ~iR. ROBERTS : made such an offer. I sent a cable to the head of the F..r..c.ry. about ten days or two weeks ago and to date I have not had the courtesy of a reply or even an acknowledp;ement. I can only assume that in the press of events in London they have not found time to dPal with this. But in any event, for whatever reason, I have not got a reply. That is the way it stands right now. TI1e Recond question - MR.

S"'ALLI:I00D: It may be because the British Government normally does not communicate with sub governments as the government of this Province l·rould be,or the hon. member who is the leader of the o~ponent to the gove~ent. The hon. p;Pntleman from Twillingate ('fr. S~allwood) has his theory as to why they have not replied.! have mine. All I can say is that my cable w~de it quite clear that I was the Leader of the Ooposition,as I would not want any spokesman for any branch of the Government of the United Kingdom replying to me under a misapprehension.

T made it quite clear that I wanted the 1.nformation for the public record. It was subseouent thereto that the snokesmen for F.:C.r..TJ. were quoted in the newsnaper, I believe in The Telegram. Whether or not my query had anythinp; to do •rith it I do not kno~r. Rut the fact remains we have two statements diametrically opposed to each other. Only one of those statements can he correct. nnly one of them is correct. I think it is very much in the nub lie interest, 'fr. Speaker, that we know which is correct.

I submit the only '~ay we are really going to know is to ask all of thE' neople concerned - and accordingly that was a suggestion I made and make again - that all the principals in this situation he invited - not commanded, we have no such power and even if we had we should not exercise it in this case - but invited to comE' before this Rouse and to respond to enquiries and questions put by members of the House. A second example of diametrically conflicting statements has to do with the third mortgage. Again we have statements on one hand that the Ataka firm, who are the major unsecured creditors as I 2554

March 8, 1976, Tape 977, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: understand it, were not interested in a third mortgage. They are not at this stage. I would think that is a fair inference. On the other hand we have statements that they were interested. On one hand they were not,on the other they were. Well, Mr. Speaker, again only one of those statements can be correct. Either the statements coming from Mr. Shaheen and from his associates, his spokesmen, his employees and what have you, are correct or they are not correct.

Either the statements which have been made by the ~inister of Mines and Energy, who I believe spoke to this point in his press release, either they are correct or they are not correct. Then thirdly - MR. CROSBIE: They are correct. MR. ROBERTS: Well the Minister of Mines and Energy says they are correct and he has said that before and I do not doubt his word. All I will say is I point out again that there are diametrically opposed statements wh,ch have been made publicly and repeatedly and only one of them can be correct. The third - MR. CROSBIE: ~m. ROBERTS: I told you whatwa~ going on.

The hon. gentleman has given us his opinion and belief. He has produced nothing to support his opinion or his belief. MR. CROSBIE: Those statements were correct. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman was not in the House Friday. HPwas in Ottawa agreeing to increases in the price of oil. But at that point a question was asked to the Premier, I believe, - MR. CROSBIE: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: MR . ROBF.RTS: Mr. Speaker, that is going too far. What is the - I object to the statement - Mr. Speaker, is the hon. gentleman rising on a point of order or is he just rising out of tenderness? MR.

CROSBIE: On a point of order 1 Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (COLLINS): Order, please! MR . ROBERTS: Well then, say it. MR. CROSBIE: My point of order is that the hon. gentleman is making 2555

~larch 8, 1976, Tape 977, Page 3 -- apb ~ffi. CROSBIE: a false statement that T was in 0ttawa on Friday agreeing to increases i.n the price of oil. I was not in Ottawa 11p,reeing to increases in the price of oil 0 I was in Ottawa urp;ing the Government of Canada not to increase the price of oil. HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, that was no point of order. That is just the hon. gentleman. My statement was correct but the hon. gentleman, I submit,is not raising a point of order. He is merely trying to debate. Let him make a little note of it.

When he gets his opportunity to speak in this debate, as I hope he will, perhaps he will deal with this point as well. Does Your Honour wish to rule on that point or shall I carry on~ MR. SPEAKER (COLLINS): I would take it that it was a difference of opinion more than a point of order. 1-'!R. ROBERTS : I thank Your Honour. I thank Your Honour very much for the - it was certainly a difference of opinion and there are two diametrically opposed opinions on the point. Mr. Speaker, the third area where we have a complete confli.ct of statements is with reference to the local creditors.

I think this house should pay more attention to the needs of the local creditors than almost to any other aspect of the entire Come By Chance situation. On one hand we have statements that had there been a third mortgage arranged all of the local creditors would have been paid off as a matter of preference and by agreement with all the other unsecured creditors. All of the local creditors to my knowledge are unsecured with the exception, of course, of the government. On the other hand we have denials that that was so.

We are led to believe that the unsecured creditors local,and the unsecured creditors other than local~would have stood pari passu, the position which presumably they are now in. Ap.ain, Sir, we 2556

rtl , \ Marc.h 8, 1976 Tape No. 978 NM - 1 MR. ROBRRTS: have diametrically opposed statements. Again, Sir, only one of them is correct. Now, tA'r. Speaker, the }finis ter of Mines and Energy just said, he indicated, I supposed I could say he undertook to table some documents in the Rouse in connection with the Come By Chance situation. I would hope very much that he keeps to that undertaking.

He may not be aware that on Friday when he was away in Ottawa, agreeing to certain nameless acts, that a quetion was asked I believe of the Premier, it may have been the Minister Without Portfolio, but I believe it was asked to the Premier and the Premier refused to table any documentation at all. That was the answer he gave to the question.

Well I hope we get all the documentation tabled because presumably once the Supreme Court decides this bankruptcy petition there is no longer any sub-judice matters to be dealt with, the matter has been dealt with by our courts because it is the only application to our courts of which I am aware. I am not aware of the difficulties of the Come By Chance Refinery have come or are about to come before our courts in any other connection. Mr. Speaker, we should know the answers to these questions, the people of this Province should know the answers to these questions. Because, Mr.

Speaker, in my view, and I know I speak for many on this, the Come By Chance difficulties are important for far more than just the $41 million which we as a government, as a Province are owed. Now that is important. $41 million is a lot of money. And we are secured under a second mortgage, we are protected under a second mortgage and we have whatever protection that affords us,but that is not the only importante and I submit that is not only the most important fact to be drawn from the continuing difficulties at Come By Chance. What concerns me, Mr.

Speaker, and what relates directly to this amendment is I want to know what effect the apparent collapse of the refining venture at Come By Chance will have upon our standing as a Province in the financial markets and upon our development as a Province. 2557

~'arch 8, 1976 Tape No. 978 NM- 2 ·~. ROBE~TS: Mr. Speaker, I am not at this point condemnin~ the government over the Come By Chance situation. There will be an opportunity. we ar~ told, to debate Come By Chance and debate it at some length and I will be able to speak then on those points. !-/hat I 1vant to kno••, Hr. Speaker, what I ~rant to know and .what I thinl' we must all ask is what effect it will have on our future d~Cvelopment. Nm1, Sir, the j_nternational financial community, I am told, is a very small 1•orld indeed.

I do Pot know holv many men there are ,,,hose opinions move millions but there are not a lot. There may he 200 or 300, 500, 1,000, they are all interconnected. They do ~usiness with each other. They meet frequently in this era of the iet aircraft and telephones and telex, instant communications, they are in close and intimate touch the one with the other each and every <'lay of the week. 1fuat one knm•s they all know, and what one believes they all believes,and what effects one effects the other. It is these men, very few women,but these men who control the pools of capital that there are around the world.

There are large pools of capital in the United States,and we have borrowed many millions of dollars there. There are smaller pools of capital. in Canada,and He have horrm>ed many millions there. "hen I say we have borrowed, '!r. Speaker, I speak not only of the government of the Province going •·•1 th thei.r hond issues and their debentures and their notes and the various other forms of paper on which we raise money, but I speak of "ndustrial development projects.

I speak of industrial development projects running all the way from a fish farm that might need $50,0~0 or $100,000 in capital to something as large as the Churchill Falls project which will require $2 billion or $3 billion in capital. Jt all comes out of the same pool, Mr. Speaker, or the same capital pools and money 1s the most liquid and the most mobile commodity in the 'mrld. 'e are all seein[< Hhat is happening today 1-rith Hhat amounts to a fight against the British pound and the great fear is that the 2558

)'(arch 8, l'l71' Tape No. 075 N¥- 3 I'll'. ROBERTS: Arab coun.tries who hold large balances in sterling will decide to take their money out of the sterling block and put it into some other currency and the effect of that could be quite easily to knock the British pound far "below even its present level which is the lowest it has ever touched. 1 can remember when the pound was $4 .80, $4.83 was it? - $4 .83~. It was alvays the gYeat measure. ~'Jt . S~!ALLWOOD: t!R. ROBERTS : MR. ~IURPHY: ~. T'.OBERTS: $4 . 83 2/3 .

The hon. gentleman whose memory - $4 .83 ~/3 , that was the standard. ~Tell I would bow to the gentleman hom Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) over the gentleman from St . John's Centre (Mr. ~lurphy ). It was well over $4. 80 and today it is $1. 90 or $1.95 or -you know obviously going up and do~rn . But it is only one pool 2559

~'arch R, 1976 ~"T'. T!OBF.nTS: Tape 979 IB-1 of capital. hThether :it is American or Japanese or European or Euro dollars or the l'nitecl Kingdom or Canadian does not essentic-.lly matter because it is all hooked one to the other, linked one to the other. \Vhat concerns me over the Come By Chance difficulties is that this Province - and I do not mean the government of Newfoundland and Labrador. I am not suggestinr- that. lihat I al11 suggestinp. :Is this Province, this Island of Ne,.rfoundland and this mainland of J~abrador, P:!ll acquire a very h] ack marl<: against our standing. Not that anybody wHl. blame us.

It :! s a coTT111lerc:l aJ venture which has got into difficul t:f es. There are reasons for it and we will have an opportunity to exam:!.ne those reasons and to comment upon them insofar as they are valid to the purposes and the business of this House. What concerns me is that the average man - and it all comes dmm, J.rr. Speaker, to one man or two or three men sitting :in a room some,~here saying, all right 1we will buy $50 million worth of bonds for the Lo~rer Churchill,or we will buy $20 million worth of bonds in this or we will lend $50,000 for that.

It always comes down to one or t'O'O men or a conuni ttee of Men. There is no magic over it. There may be a lot of numbers, a lot of zeros behind the integers at the start of the sum, hut it comes down to indivicluals who take ded.sions. They may he chargecl with controll:f.ng great pools of capital, great funds of cap:f.tal or they may he charged with controlling and guiding small funds of cap:f tal. But 'vhat will that individual or that group think of our Province?

Th11t is Hhat concerns me, because we are going to need as a Province and as an economy,whether :it is government or pr:fvate,to borrow millions and more millions to develop this Province. J am not speakinr just of large projects such as the Lo,·rer rhurchill. If that :is to go ahead it 'vlll need $2 billion in non­ equity capital, you know, immense sums of money. But even if ,,•e are to get smaller :industries going and smaller ventures and smaller projects, in each case we will be talking of $1 million or $2 million or $552,000 or $829,000.

In each case somebody must say aye or nay to the request t0 horrm-r that much money. That is what concerns me 2560

March 8, 1976 ~~. I'ODEl'T$ : Tape 979 about the Come Dy Chance situati~. I think we must meet it head- on because the international financial communities will certainly IB-2 hear of this. It is a very large venture, spectacularly large. I do not know how much the Ataka firm are owed but I believe it is of the order of $300 million.

I think that is the figure Which the ~'inister of 1'ines and Energy has given out in his press statement. ~ncredibly large sums of money: It is bound to be commented upon, bound to be talked upon involving particularly as it does a Japanese firm and American firms and British firms and the people who supply the oil, the Iranian firms and of course r.anadian firms and then the p;overnment of the United Kingd.o111 and the government of this Province and the government of Canada who, of course, own the wharf out there anc have a security in that, and also, I believe, only accounts receivable after mortgage one and mortgage two have had their bite at the accounts receivable.

All of these people will know 6f this problem and I want to know what effect it will have. I think, if anything, it makes it even more urgent and more important than hitherto that we as a Province when we go to the financial communit:!.es have our house in order and know exactly Where we are going and what we are going to do with the money. Because my fear is, Sir, that - and I do not think that I am exagerating - is if that is not done, if the government do not take some positive and some meaningful steps - and I do not mean the odd luncheon.

It is all very well to go off to Boston or Los Angeles or wherever they have been and have a luncheon and have a group of businessmen in and give them a good time and make a speech to them. That is fi.ne and danC.y and it serves a certain purpose. But I am talki.ng now of the realm of hard facts, not just the four volumes that the Minister of Finance and his officials produced in support of our request for a re-evaluation of our debt rating, a request which \Jas not grantee whatever the pros and cons of it. But we need a positive prograuune, a very positive and detailed progratnme because 2561

l':.rch ?.,1976 Tap e 979 IB-3 ,,., . "nREl'TS: from nat> on when '~e go in as a ~overnment or when some businessman froll' NevrfouncUanc1 or some international company thinking of cominr. :Into this Province to do business, the Come By rhance quest:ton '":Ill be rai.sec1, and peop]e must be satisfied on it because it :ts ;o, valid <"ne to raise. Ph at went 'qronp, and "hat can be done to prevent :1 t happeninp, again? Those are the questions. 2562

March 8, 1976 Tape no. 980 Page 1 - mw Mr. Rober ts . I am not going into the merits of why did the Ataka Company move, by petitioning on Friday 13, petitioning the courts for a bankruptcy proceeding against the Shaheen interests. There will be an opportunity to debate that, and that will be a very relevant question. Mr. Speaker, we in this Province have a right to know, a right to know, what has happened,and more importantly what has happened is only of interest in that it relates to the second thing and that is,what affect will it have?

An assurance from the Minister of Finance, while I accept it, is not good enough. It is not enough. It does not deal with the central problem. I am not particularly worried about our bond issues as a government.

I do not think it will directly affect those, but I am concerned about the standing of this Province in the eyes of the financial community, the international financial community, in the light of this, in the light of the fact that we have difficulties with the Lower Churchill .-they are well-known- in the light of the fact that we need large sums of capital, whether they come for one project or for many?rojects. We cannot develop this Province without access to large sums of capital. We cannot generate them in Newfoundland. There is not enough money in Newfoundland to provide the capital we need.

There is not enough money in Canada to P!ovide the capital that we need. There may not be enough in the world takin~ all the demands into account, but we are competing in a very tough international market against very great demands from other countries, other provinces. We must put forward the best possible case. And I would think that that is something to which the ministry should be very much addressing their thoughts, because that is what concerns me about Come By Chance. The creditors, they can stand to their own rights.

I am particularly concerned about the local creditors, but I do not want to get into that now, as I think that may be unappropriate , but when we discuss this on the motion, or whatever proceeding the government intend to use to bring the matter before the House, then I will have • 2563

March 8, 1976 Tape no. 980 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts. something to say on the local creditors, because I believe they have a special claim on the good offices of the government and of the House. I am very concerned about them, because I think the affect on them will be far greater, because I think they were encouraged, knowingly or unknowingly,by government's statements particularly statements made throughout the Fall by the Premier. I do not want to get into it in detail, but I do not think the Premier made the statements he ought to have made given what he ought to have known and did in fact know. Mr.

Speaker, at this stage I will not ·say a great deal about the employees at Come By Chance. These are the people who will most directly and most dramatically suffer. It is not enough just to find them other jobs. 11any of them will get other jobs. Many will not. The ones with skills with get other jobs, and they may even get them at the same rates of pay. But to take those jobs they will have to leave this Province. That in itself should be a cause for sadness and a cause which should make all of us rebel. Mr.

Speaker, even more so than that all of them, any of them who will have to leave, will lose whatever or just about whatever they have invested in their homes.

I am told that it is the real dimensions of the tragedy, that many of those men, all of whom have been making - what? - $10,000, $12,000, $15,000, $20,000 a year, I mean, very good rates of pay indeed and have the benefits of an urban work situation with the even greater benefits of rural life or small community life, those- men have built magnificent homes, have invested many thousands of dollars, have borrowed many thousands of dollars which they have committed themselves to repay most of them on mortgages,and if they have to leave Come By Chance, if they have to leave Clarenville or the whole area - I notice that the gentleman from Trinity North (Mr.

Brett) is shaking his head in agreement - I think that is the dimensions of the human tragedy. The creditors and the businessmen that is millions or many millions, but that is an entirely different world than the one I am talking about. I am worried about men, many of whom have been 2564

March 8, 1976 Tape no. 980 Page 3 - IIIW Mr. Roberts. t()- see me, many of whom have telephoned Gl' written, men who can see losinR their h0111es. I am· sure down in Placentia,and. in DUliVille iR the district of Placentia,there are many people in the same position. They thought they bad a se~ure future, and they lu!.d planned for H, and they had built on it ud Wl;!l!e wotking towards it, and now it seems that their future is shattered. Well I think we should pay a lot of attention to that because, Mr.

Speaker, the point which bas not been made in talking about the troubles at that refinery is that when it starts again, as U will, whether it is - I have beard the Premier say it could be three months to· tbree years - but whether it is thJ;"ee months or three weeks or three year.s or what, the refinery will start again, whether 2565

Tape 981 PK - 1 ~{r. Poh.,rts: --------- Shaheen and his company are in control of it,or 1.Jhether it is some otl-)er company is another ouestion. But the refinery will operate. That must be our belief. And I believe it is a belief founded on r£-aUty. \.Jhen it starts, Hr. Speaker, that refinery without ~ Horl: force is just a very expensive and a very elaborate and ~very technologically compl~cated,but it is just a pile of metal ann of hoses and pipes and tanks and valves and all of the thinr.s that l'lake up a refinery. nnce that work force goes - its a good 1vork force.

It is largely Ne•,foundland - once that work force goes it •>i ll be not just difficult to get another tvork force to get those men back, hut I would say almost impossible' because once burned is ttvice warned. And I would think the government, Mr. Speaker, should put their minds to that in an active way. It is not serving Nev1foundland, it :is not servinr, th<1t industry if we find jobs by moving people away. Xo1v mayhe that is the on]y alternative. I do not believe it is• I think there are other alternatives "'e should look at, and I would hope thnt when we r:et to the debate we will look at those.

Because, Sir, any company that vmnts to come in and open that refinery again,- and I have no doubt there are, and the receiver has said publicly that there ~re at least two reputable col'lpanies that have indicated a dep,ree of interest. Jle has not named them, hut they have indicated a degree of interest - that that refinery 1.Jill need a work force, and it should be 11 N e~<foundland work force. And l" am sure a lot of Newfoundlanders are p.oing to sit hac'!< and think t•dce if they look around and say, boy, the lao>t crovd that ~Vere here lost their shirts.

Because that is what '\ole arf:' talkin!l: of. l"en who have socked their life's savings, their life earntn~s into a home, and still owe $20,000 or $15,000 or $25,000 on a rnortgap:e, and then end up having to !'ell that house at a distress nrice or forfeit it under the terms of their mortgage indenture. I think the p;overnment should take a very long look at that wHh n vie'' to hrin!!inf' in somE' positive proposals. I believe that is ahsolutely essential, not In the interest of Hr.

Shaheen and his creditors, I have no brief for either, except the local creditors, hut I do have a urief for the men "'ho work there. I do have a brief

Harch 8, 1976 Tape 981 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: for the futore of that refinery. Mr. Speaker, I would like to say much, much more on the Come By Chance situation, but we are under a quite legitimate and a quite proper constraint. I do not want to get into the area that falls under the rule, the prohibition against discussing matters before the courts, and we will have an opportunity within the next two or three weeks. But I would think, Mr. Speaker, that the points which I have made are points which should concern every resident of this Province; What affect will it have on our international standing?

Because we have got to go to those markets again and again and again to raise money. And what affect will it have? People probably will say it is not the government. Well, that is fine. At this stage I am not blaming the government. But what affect ~~ill it have? If in fact it is a bankruptcy, one of the most spectacular actions of its kind,! would submit in, certainly in Canadian history, and possibly in North American or in international business history .

I must let somebody to find out whether there have been any - I suppose the Atlantic Acceptance failure was a larger one than the difficulties that they have had at Come By Chance. The amounts involved are staggering, Mr. Speaker, and it is bound to come to the notice of everybody anywhere in the financial world, anybody the least bit interested. And I want the government to let us know what steps they are taking to make sure that the difficulties at Come By Chance do not become the difficulties for this Province.

The difficulties which that industry, at present a private industry started with substantial government help, but a private industry at this time, that :that industry ,- the difficulties they are having - do not become equal difficulties or do not affect any other proposal private or public to develop this Province further. Mr. Speaker, let me say a few words on the fisheriJ to change to another topic altogether, because the fishery obviously is an integral part of any plans to develop this Province. And it should be an, not 25o7

larch A, 1<176 Tape 981 PK - 3 only an integral part, but rerhaps the crowninl? part. It is a cliche, t yue~s,to say that the fisheries are ahso1utcly vital to our future. Pvery poli tican that ever has spoken on it to rny knowledge ha~ ,~;nid that phrase or words to that affect, that it is absolutely vi.tal to ou r future that without the fisheries we have no future, that witJ1 the f isberies '"e can have a elorious future. And then everybody 2568

; \' ·-r March fl, H76. Tape 982 RH - 1 1ffi. R0RF.RTS: rroes on to talk about development of the fisheries. What strikes me, Mr. Speaker, is hov7 little has been done. A lot of money has been spent, most of it government money. I noticed today the ~linister of Fisheries for this rrovince ~uoted in the paper as saying that $44 millions was a little enough money. It is about ten or twelve times what his department, his administration are spending on the fisheries in this Province this year,net. It might not be enough but it is a devil of a lot more than the government of this Province have ever put in. !IN HON.

MEMBER: They cut back this year. l'!P.. ROBERTS: The government of the Province cut back. Yes,they have. Sure they have. They have slashed it savagely. The Minister of Fisheries has not even heen heard to peep about it. In fact he entered the Cabinet after this had been done presumably indicating his acceptance of this and his desire to worl' within that type of framework. 1-lell I am not going to say that what Ottawa are putting into the fisheries is enough. But what I will say is that $44 million is a lot of money. It will do a lot of good.

May- he we need more and I would vote for that and I would vote - I am sorry 1 the Minister of Hea]thi ~1R • COLLINS : It is not only for Newfoundland, the $44 million. 'MR. ROBERTS: That is true; It is not only for Newfoundland. But I am only for Newfoundland. If I were interested in more than - the hon. gentle- man was the Hinister of Fisheries for a year or two and he has now said more on fisheries in this interchange in the House this moment than he has said in all the time he was Minister of Fisheries and he has made more sense. SOHR HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR • RORERTS: Mr.

Speaker, it is for the groundfish jndustry in Eastern \.an.:1da. Newfoundland and Labrador is a very large part of the groundfish industry j_n Fastern Canada. The Minister of Fisheries tMde no distinction. The }linister of Health feels he should have ,to which I say the Minister of l'1isheries and the Minister of Health should get off and have a chat top,ether. Now, Mr. Speaker, the point I am making is that the government, all governments,and I am talking about the present government, the gentlemen 2569

!1arc1, ,q, 1"7fi. Tape <!32 Rll- ~ HR. r.Olll'RTS: 1-1ho 11:'\VP 'been in office now for four years, hl'lVE' talken a great neal about the fisheries and they have done next to nothing. As a matter of fact T am not sure anybody can speak to fifty ext~a iol-.s that have l>een created in thE' fisheries of this Province as a direct result of any action taken or any action refrained hv the government of this Province in the last four years. I am not sure they can point to fifty jobs. 1-fR. CRC1Sl\ If.: Thousands! HR. ROP.F.RTS: The han. r~inister of 'lines and F.nergy,who ~;as one o