PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT irouse of Assembly For the period: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. February 8, 1977

February 8, 1977 Tape no. 76 Page 1 - mw The House met at 3:00 P.M. Nr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order! STATEME~TS BY MINISTERS: The han. Minister of Justice. HR. HICKMAN: }rr. Speaker, there have been three industrial accidents at Labrador City causing deaths during the past two weeks. This is indeed regrettable and of great concern to government, and,in my opinion, warrants a full enquiry. The Industrial Accidents Enquiries Act,

Chapter 165 of the Revised Statutes of Newfoundland provide that where it appears to the Attorney General that an accident involving loss of life or bodily injury is of sufficient importance to require a formal investigation of the accident and of its causes and circumstances, the Attorney General may by order direct such investigation to be held. The act also provides that the Attorney General may appoint. a competent person to hold such investigaticn and may appoint any person possessing legal, medical and special knal<ledge to act as assessor in holding the investigation. I wish to inform this han.

House that pursuant to the provisions of the Industrial Accidents Enquiries Act, I will, at the earliest possible date, appoint a competent person to hold an enquiry into these three fatalities. It seems clear to me that the Industrial Accidents Enquiries Act envisages a full enquiry in this type of case which will be a public enquiry with the commissioner having very broad powers of investigation. I have reached this conclusion after consultation with my colleagues, the Hinistc.r of Hines and Energy, the ~nister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, as well as the Director of Public Prosecutions.

I hope to be in a position to announce the name of the commissioner so appoi,.ted to conduct such enquiry \olithin one week. ') ') : - lo.l '~

February 8, 1977 Tape no. 76 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, we on this side welcome the announcement of the government's decision. We have all read with regret of the three separate accidents which have claimed lives. It is a matter of great regret that all three have occurred within the one industrial operation, the Iron Ore Company of Canada's operation at Labrador City. There has obviously been considerable public pressure, and pressure from the union,to have an enquiry into the circumstances of these three accidents.

And I would hope as well - or let me deal with that. The government have made the right response by undertaking to have this enquiry carried out. I can only say that I hope the commissioner is appointed quickly. I hope he holds his hearings quickly after his appointment, and that his report is presented quickly. These, I realize, are not matters within the control of government. All the government can do'is appoint a commissioner.

But I would hope that in appointing a man or a woman to carry out this task that they would ask - I think it is a proper thing to ask of a commissioner,- ask irideed before his appointment to get an assurance that he or she, as the case may be, will meet quickly with those concerned, will undertake the enquiry quickly to expedite it, and then get us a report. Because it is obvious that there is a great deal of public concern.

In fact this morning's issue of The Daily News has in 'it a story quoting - I am not sure if it quotes a gentleman by name - but quoting union sources within the SteehlOrkers Local that represents the men at this operation saying, "They want the whole operation closed dmm because of this." \{ell that obviously is not, to my knowledge, justified. I do not see any case for it at this stage, but it is obvious that we must have a quick investigation. That operation over the years, I think, has been relatively safe. I am not aware of very ~any fatalities. It has had a very good record.

And all of a sudden they havE three within a pe~iod of -what? - ten days, a fortnight. ~lR. ~EARY: Ten days. lIT\ RCBI:RTS: Ten days. (.1 :nean ' . :.·~r\ e k•

February 8, 1977 Tape 77 IB-1 1-'R. ROBERTS: may or may not indicate something seriously wrong. It certainly is extremely unfortunate. If there is some serious problem with the administration or the operation of the Labrador iron ore, the IOCC operation at Labrador City, then it should be made public speedily. So really all we say is that the investigation should begin quickly.

I hope it will not be restricted to simply the circumstances surrounding the deaths of these three gentlemen, that it will be a broader one in looking into at least the "hole IOCC operation and possibly even the Wabush Hines operation just across the lake which is so similar to the IOCC operation that really if there is a problem with one, the odds are the same problem occurs at the other. But we ,_ welcome it. I hope the comn\issioner 'dll he appointed quickly and I hope the report will be brought down speedily. HR. SPEAKER: Are there any ~urther ministerial statements? The hen. Minister of Social Services. MR.

BRETT: Hr. Speaker, I would like to explain how my department is planning to carry out its share of the special job creation programme that was announced in the Thron~ Speech. The House is aware that $2 million has been provided for this purpose and of that amount $702,000 has been allocated to the Department of Social Services. This money will be spent by my department on jobs for able-bodied social assistance recipients. This means that there will be an immediate saving in social assistance expenditures for every person we put to work.

Specifically our plans call for undertaking t'ceaty-seven labour· intensive community dev~lopnent projects in various parts of the Province. These projects will be relatively small and thus easily manageable. Each project Hill employ an average of fifteen persons. In total we plan to create approximately 400 jobs. As indicate.d this will result in a correspo~din:; reduction in our able-bodied so~.:ial assistance ~ase load. These projects are already plan!:ed and work on ') ') p - ,. \ l

February 8, 1977 Tape 77 IB-2 HR. BRETT: them ~ill commence almost immediately. Many of the projects ~ill have lasting value to individuals in communities. For example, repairs to houses,and somebody has ~ritten here, improved fishing facilities. That is a vety poor example. Actually ~e only have I think it is t~o very small projects in this respect and it is only ~here our own Department of Fisheries or the federal government could not or ~ould not get involved. Sir, I ~ill be the first to concede that this effort in job creation is not a cure-all for the "hole unemployment problem in the Province.

But at least it is a positive step in the right direction. By employing social assistance recipients He are striking at the most stubborn aspect of the problem. MR. NEARY: ~~ere is the money coming from to provide the employment? HR. BRETT: Sir, there are several distinct advantages to b~ gained by allocating job creation money to a Social Service Department. I have already ~entioned the most important advantage.

It is namely the prevision of gainful emploj~ent to able-bodied social assistance recipients. ~~ile this fact alone almost justifies the expenditure, there are a number of beneficial side effects "hich should not be overlooked. For example, many of those >>ho "ill be employed >Iill be given hope and incentive from the '"ork experience and will go on from there to other jobs. We know from experience that this is what happens when these people are given a chance.

As a matter of interest we have observed as a result of our employment opportunities programme that approximately one-half of those who participate in these projects 10ove on from there to independence and do not come back on the welfare rolls. From the beginning of our e~ployment opportunities progra~me there has been a steady decrease :i.n the number of cases of able- bodied social assistance. For example, in Decembers lCJ71 - that is before this government came to po·h~er - the:-e ~~rere 9, 206 .:.ble- bodied social assistance cases on our payroll o.nd in tl1c L"1t£:.!'ve:li_ng

February 8, 1977 Tape 77 IB-3 MR. BRETT: five years we have cut this in half. For example,in December of 1976 "'e had a total of 5,196 cases. SO!!E HOC~. ~!E~ffiERS: _MR. BRETT: If I may, ~!r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! _MR. BRETT: This is not supposed to be a debate. I do not want to explain it here but I am sure I will get the opportunity to explain it at a later date. I am not suggesting and neither is anyone over here that we have taken 5,000 people off the welfare roll and that we have never seen them since. This is not what we are saying. But •

February 8, 1977 Tape 78 PK - 1 Hr. Brett: what we are saying in effect is that we have been responsible for putting at least 5,000\maybe more,people into jobs such as LIP and so on that would never have been there but for our effort. SONE HON. MD!BERS: Hear, hear! MR. BRETT: For this very reason,that nobody ever went out to try to get these people to work. I am not suggesting that ·we created the jobs, but I am suggesting that we got them to go to work. That is what I am saying, and this is what we are saying. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BRI:TI: Sir, let me digress for a minute to tell you a little - MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! The procedure under l!inisterial '>ta.tements is being somewhat strained,. and the hon. minister should obviously stick to his statement of government policy, and there should really be no interruptions, and any hon. member entitled to speak thereafter of course have to abide by the same rules. The han. Minister of Social Services. HR.

BRETT: Okay, Sir, let me digress. for a minute to tell you a little about our Employment Opportunities Division "'hich ,.;as set up in the Department of Social Services ~vhen this government took office. !::e ·division is small bYcomparison with some of the big money spending divisions in the department; in fact, it is a money saver. ?~d its mission is the vocational rehabilitation of abled-bodied social assistance recipients.

And the House ~<ill be i:l.terested to know that, as I said before 1 something like 5,000 recipients have been placed in gainful employment and/or in training and upgrading through the efforts of this particular division. And of cot!rse the division works hand-in-glove ~<ith the field social workers who refer the people ~,d provide support and encouragement tc the man and tc the family in keeping them on the job. And in short, Sir, it is a team effort, and a truly worth-t.Jhile social service. Let me ~ow mention another advantage in allocating job c:r;eation money to social sen'ices.

Very little of it is spend on administr-ation and he2.vy equipment. Actually the planning and the oversight of the projects \,rill be carried out by the per::r.:ment

February 8, 1977 Tape 78 PK - 2 Hr. Brett: staff of my department, mainly by our special project's officers, and we have five of them attached to regional offices across the Province. These special project officers are fully occupied with creatL,g employment opportunities for social assistance recipients. And we also have our ow~ accounting and our own payroll staff to handle this t)~e of work. Sir, later on in the session I hope to tell the House more \ about the plans of the'department for this kind of endeavour,this special kind of endeavour,during the coming fiscal year.

As for the projects, Sir, they will be tabled in the House hopefully tomorrow. I found out today that maybe one or two of them could overlap with LIP, and we were not aware of this when we started. We checked very thoroughly with LIP, because we did not want this to happen. But we found out today that one or two of them may hav~ overlapped and we have to correct that. Also we have some funds for Labrador. And for obvious reasons the projects have not been named as yet. There are· also one or two projects in the East Coast that have not been named.

So the list is not actually complete right now, but it should be by tomorrow or at least before Friday, and I will table it in the House. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: HP.a.r .. hear! HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. ROBERTS: I am not allowed to debate the minister's statement so I shall not, although I must say it is unfair, and I venture to suggest improper~ in the best sense of that ,;ord, of the minister to try and sneak in a statement that is a form of debate in a procedure· YThere we are not allow to debate it.

Hm;ever, I have a few minutes left in the Throne Speech, my tal1-:s on the Throne Speech debate, and so I shall have an opportunity to expose some of the fallacies in the minister 1 s statement_ I shall deal with it there at some length, because I think hi.s stntP~:tent .. vlhi.le I accent the words he uses as being correct and ,:..;. '! " '\ L. ,) \

February 8, 1977 Tape iS PK - 3 Xr. i\.oberts: accurate~of course, his statement is misleading, inaccurate, I cannot say malicious, mischievous I think I am allowed to say within the rules. And I suggest an example of the fact that this 500 job programme we have talked about is no programme at all. All he is doing here is taking 400 people off the social assistance roles and putting them to work, If they get $100 a week, they only get eighteen weeks work each. MR. BRETI: Are you against that? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am against any policy that does not represent a proper job creation programme.

I will deal with the minister a little later at some lengch, and then we will have an opportunity to debate it. All I want to say now is that I think his statement,while it is welcome, and any job is a welcome one, that his announcement of programme is incomplete, mischievous, misleading and, I think, it is somewhat co<Jardly in the parliamentary sense of him to make it as a ministerial statement when he cannot debate it, Sir. S OHE EON. MEHBERS: Hear, hear!

February 8, 1977, Tape 79, Page 1 -- apb PRESENTING PFTITTON~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of the community of Kippens in the district of Port au Port.

The prayer of the petition is as follows: "We the undersigned residents of the community of Kippens in the district of Port au Port, beg that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador take immediate steps to provide a water and sewer system for the community of Kippens, and furthermore we request that immediate and,short term action be taken to alleviate the distress of those families in Kippens who are completely without water at present." Mr. Speaker, the petition is signed by 486 residents of the area, all, I believe , who are of • voting age.

The historic community of Kippens is one of the largest communities in the Province at the present time without water or without a sewer system. Tite community has experienced a rapid growth in the past three years as it borders on the tow~ of Stephenville and has grown in a similar fashion as has Stephenville. It is also a natural growth area and it has suitable land. Hany people who have arrived in Bay St. George, newcomers to Bay St. George, and people who lived in Bay St. George before,have moved to this area and have built their homes there.

I believe it is certain that the community "ill continue to grow in the future because it is an area '.lhich is admirably suitable to develop in the Stephenville area. The conditions that people must endure because of the lack of ~<ater and sewer in the area is both cruel and tragic. During the past two Sunners soze residents of the com...~unity have had to hring water to tl-.eir homes by truck from nearby R.or.1~ines Rive'!:'. The c.o!!!!1mrdty f.s quite~ lcng one and that entails,sometimes, bringi~1g \Jate'!:'

February 7, 1977, Tape 79, Page 2 -- apb HR. HODDER: as much as three miles. Others have spent hundreds and in some cases thousands of dollars drilling artesian wells and have not been able to get any water because of the type of soil and the type of rock in the area. There are other residents of which I have personal experience who are getting their water from a local brook which is situated near an asphalt plant and I have been in homes in the district where people have their wells in the basement and with people living behind them I do fear, Mr. Speaker, that there will be a health problem in the area. Mr.

Speaker, I do not think that those conditions can continue to exist in a modern community in this day and age. An engineering study was carried out prior to the last election. I believe it was done by Alexander Engineering. MR. ROBERTS: Right. MR. HODDER: But nothing has been done about it since even though there has been pressure from the community in question. I am told by people ;1ho know more than I do that the water level in the area has de~reased because of new construction and many surface wells.

There have been two pub lie meetings recently; one was called by a concerned citizen and that led to this petition. And as well, the public meeting which was held to elect a new council, there l'ere some 200 people there ;,ho made their feelings quite clear that they feel as I feel that this is a major step for a community but that they are prepared to do everything that they possibly can to get "ater and sewer and to co-operat_e in any l'ay that they can. The people are upset. They are very upset, Hr. Speaker, and I believe that they are upset and rightly so.

I do hope that the Minister of :·!unicipal Affairs wiil hear their plea and I ask that the petition be laid on the table of the House and referred to the denartmr-T")t tn vhi r.h it relates. ..L-;.

Fe~ruary 8,1?77. Tape 8() AH-1 ~ffi. \.'!liTE : Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition as presented by the member for Port au Port~and I am fully aHare that there is a water and sewer problem in Kippens as well as there are in a lot of other ~ommunities throughout Newfoundland. Mr-. Speaker, while we hear a lot about government ~utba~ks and so on , and '·7e are generally sympatheti~ with taat, but we must remember that there is a serious ,.ater situation in many ~onununities in Newfoundland •. And Kippens is one of those conmunities.

I have several in my own district and I suspect that there are eight or ten members on the other side who probably have problems in their distri~ts. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. HIC~fAN: Yesterday,Your Honour ruled and very properly so that under the rules governing the presentation of petitions,that any hon. gentleman must confine his remarks in supporting su~h petitions to the mat~rial allegation contained therein and cannot under any ~ircumstances enter unon any debate. And I do suggest that the hon. gentleman from Lewisporte is doing .iust that at this time, ~ffi. SPEAKER: A point of order. HR.

ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman who leads the House on the government side is falling into the error of all House Leaders in trying to restri~t debate. My friend from Levisporte was not entering into debate· He 'vas speaking in support of the petition presented by the gentlemen from Port au Port 1 and in speaking to the material allegations contained in that petition, which I submit have to do with the desirability and the necessity of providing <·later and sewer systems to the residents. of Kippens , was drawing an analogy. I do not kno>-~ what point he vas atte2pting to make.

He had not the opportunity to tell us before the House Leader arbitrarilv and almost arr 0gantlv intervened in an at~emnt to cut him off and restrict his remarks. My colleague >;..Tas simply, the gentleman from Let\~isporte tvrts simply making an analogy to support ') 3 I ...... { i

February 8 )1977 Tape 80 AH-2 }~. ROBERTS: his suoport of the material allegations in the petition. And I t.wuld say further, Hr. Speaker, that if we are, every time we are to have a petition presented, if we are to have this kind of exhibition by the Government House Leader then, Sir, the entire process of presenting petitions will be immeasurably slowed up. Your Honour made quite a clear ruling yesterday which said that we are not to debat~ petitions.

If there is any debate on a petition, I am sure Your Honour >Iill not hesitate, under Your Honour's general authority and plenary jurisdiction to enforce the rules,and not hesitate to interrupt a member and say1 "I <Jill remind the hon. gentleman that debate is not permitted~' If «re are to have these points of order 1 which are really only brought up by the government House Leader in an attempt to harass people, Sir, All itdoes is delay the matters of the House, and I would suggest my colleague from Lewisporte was completely in order.

He had said nothing that was in the least bit offensive or out of order and he should be allowed to proceed. SO~·fE RON. Y~-fBERS : Hear,hear MR.. HI CK1'·tt~2~ : If I may respond to the imputation of false and unavot<ed motives by the hon. the Leader of the Opoosition, tovard the hon. House Leader SOHE ROll. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! }lR. HICI0'1'L'I: -may I say without any that this is not a attempt to stifle debate. Rule 97 says clearly " There shall be no debate on a petition;· That debate was not made by the government House Leader.

And I submit to Your Honour that any hon. gentleman in this House has a duty to call to the attention of the Chair any straving or breach from or breach of the rules. Fhat I. as the government House Leader ;.rould like to see is the presentation of the ;oetitions to this House expeditiously, clearly and Hith very firm and clear reference to the material allegations contained in such petition. That is all that I ask. ~- ') ') ; ~ ,.J 'l

February 8,1977. Tape 80 A!l-3 SO'IE HO~. ~!E~!Bl'RS : Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: I will hear one further submission and then I should be in a position to make a ruling. MR. ROBERTS: I made no allegations of any faults or un_avm1ed motives in respect to the government Rouse Leader. I made a statement as to what his clear motivation >ms. I did not saY attemutin2 to ~rif1~ debate,because if the House Leader ,;ould think for a moment,Sir, the whole point of this, if there is a point, is that you may not debate a petition. And for once he shoa1.d have attempted to stifle debate.

I said that he is attempting to harass the hen. gentleman opposite Hho are doing their duty, and presenting a petition according to the _rules.

Your Honour yesterday 1 the first occasion, I guess,that petitions have ueen presented in this session~ m3de quite a clear and straightfo~1ard ruling that said we are not allowed to debate petitions Yell that is fine, ,;e accept that• But ,Sir, we are certainly allowed to support a petition according to the rilles of this chamber, this House~ and in supporting the petition, surclyit is not the least bit improper to.makc an ana!ogy 1 to refer to the fact that this may not be the only such need in this province.

This, Sir, is a practice that is hallowef by tradition,it has been hallo,;ed by_ the precedents l.·n th H e ouse. And all I can say that is if the hon. gentleman OPposite does not n:1Tti:""TT1!:!-rJ~7 1.{1 .. , ... ~e way in which we carry out our duties .. aS long as they are subject to ' the rules of the House , Si.r, I say to him, "Tough~' And he can go look elsewhere. Let him discipline his oHn members, let him discipline the Hinister of Social Service for .abu?ing, the :·finisterial Statement before he attempts to lecture us. Si)llfE HON. ~·E:·'Bl'RS: Hear, hear! ') '1 ;" -,1 ll

February 8, 1977 Tape ~ro. 81 NH - 1 'lR. SPEAKER: There are two matters referred to in argument on this point of order which are quite clear. One is what the rules are with respect to petitions. That is very clear. Standing Order 97, there shall b~ no debate. Standing Order 92, a member speaking in support must confine himself to a statement of the parties, that is the petitioners, the number of signatures or the material allegations. All of that is clear.

It is also clear that any hon. member does have the right and under certain circumstances perhans a duty to draw to the attention of the Chair his opinion that there has been a breach of order. With respect to the actual comments of the hen. member for Lewisporte (~r. White) as I recall them, a few minutes have transpired, he was speaking on the request of the people of Kipnens for water and the need for a water sunply 'in Kippens and was referring to the fact that there were other areas in ·the Province as well in various districts which also had such a need.

That type of reference I would not rule to be out of order. XR. ROBERTS: Hear~ · Hear! MR. SPEAKER : If the hon. gentleman's 1vords would develop a speech criticizing the government's financial policy for net making enou~h money avail~blP for water services or related issues. 1 although related t'1ey would not be nart of a material allegation of a petition. But to the extent that he did speak, I am not aware of any matters which would be ruled out of order. snME RON. ~!f.'<!W"S : Hear! Hear! }fR. YlHITE : Thank you; ~r. Speaker. I did rise to support the petition of the mesber for ?art au Port C·1r. J.

Fodder) with re?,ard to the request of the neople in Kippens and I did refer to similar probler::s around :!e':.Jfoundland. And Hhat I ~\·as r,oing to do, ~r. Speaker, 1vas make a suggc>stion to the r.overnrnent ministers, those wno are ccncernerJ aoour. \olat:er an11 se'.ver ~ann 1:naL 1"'1 ') .... ,~ .. )

February 8, 1977 Tane ~~o. 81 NM - 2 '!R. HHITE: and sewer quite a bit and I think that l<e should look in terms of getting away from the old system of multi- million dollar water and sewer syste~. And it is about time that we looked at some kind of chea!Jer method and Maybe an extension of the l<later Services Division which I think is one of the best divisions that has been set up in the Department of Municipal Affairs,and that is basically what I wanted to say.

In supporting the petition on beh~lf nf the people from Kippens,I would like to say that we as a group should put our heads together and see if there is not some other ~ay we can develo~ water, at least proper water facilities, for people because there is an urgent need for that throughout Newfoundland without getting into the expense of syst~~s that we have seen throughout the years. SOYE RON. MEc·ffiERS: Hear! Hear! • MR. ROBERTS: Well supported. ~\Tell supported.

I ~,.reswne bot!'!. hon. ge!.!tlernen are risi!'!g on the petition presently under consideration?If so I will hear the hon. member for Bay of Islands follol<ed 'oy the hon. menber for Conception Bay South. Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that I '"mt to give my full hearted support to the petition presented by the member for Port au Port (~!r. J. Hodder), primarily for the reason that I come from a district nrimarily rural and one of my top priorities has been and 't·7ill be as long as I am in this han o House,. to have ~1 ater brought to every home in. the district ..

There are many places in fact in ~re~,.foundland, and even in the Bay of Islands district~ uhere necple cannot find a clean sarrmle of water in the Sur:-:mertime. And for that ruatter throu?,hout the whole year4 So I not only suoport the TJCtition fro:a t~e r;:.e::J.ber for Port au Port ('dr. J 4 Hodde::-) hut I .:1lsn suryport -:.:h2t Lhc hon. _____ ,_ -- t: __ ,. --~~ ~·· '"·'·· •-... . • ' ..... _, •• '--···<...... -v.o.. .:·

February 8, 1977 N'! - 3 ~!R. 'VIJODROH: us to get away from the multi-million dollar programmes,and get down to something that is,say,modest and something that is going to bring a good •·•at<'r supply to all the neonle of the Province and I think all of us i~ this hon. House should be concerned about this, esnecially those of us who come from the rural areas of the Province. SOME HON. ME~ffiERS: Hear! Hear! ~!R. NOLA.. 'I: ~!r. Speaker, very briefly I rise to sul)nort the petition from the member for Port au Port (Mr. J.

Hodder) and to certainly agree with the hon. member for Lewisporte(}~r. lo.'hite), and also our han. friend opposite. There seems to be something in this Province that hanpens from the time you get a piece of raw land and until the time you get water and sewer services into a home,and the former Minister of '!unicipal Affairs and I have certainly discussed this nrivately in the past. For exaMple,when the land was bought, raw 1 ' 1 i • t" N·'ewtown in an'l at very, ver:_;r .... c~ pr ce .... or ne ') ·~ '1 .... ~' .

February 8 , 1977 Tape no. 82 Page 1 - mw Mr. Nolan. in St. John's West, it was bought at a verv, very low price. But look what happened in the interim because of the installation of services. Now there are gentlemen of good will and some knowledge on the opposite side of this House who know what I am saying is true, and not only that, but some who have had some personal experience, who have actually worked in certain areas. And I think that it is neglect on our

part if we do not apply ourselves to this problem. We are very suspect, very suspect, all of us in this House, because of what happens from tl•e time a developer buys a piece of land, until the time some poor, unfortunate devil moves in and is mortgaged for the rest of his life. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I do believe the hon. gentleman in,.,eaking on the . costs of servicing land, the matter has strayed from the allegation of the petition,which is with reference to the .provision of water for Kippens,and by analogy certainly a reference to other places, but really not on the acquisition or servicing of land or the cost of land. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: As one of the spokesmen in this hon. House for Western Newfoundland, it gives me great pleasure, Sir, to support the prayer of the petition presented by the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder). The member, Sir, made an excellent presentation.

He made a very strong plea on behalf of his constituents who applied their signatures to the p~tition. And I believe, Sir, thGt all han. members of the House, according to the discussion that followed~ were -impressed with the presentation and the need for this project. \-le have heard a number of suggestions, ~fr. Speaker, and concern probably on the part of members as to how this project ar ... d other projects C.ciU be financed in these inflationary times. Hell, Sir~ I have a suggestion to thrm\7 out to the members cf the han.

House, and that is, Sir, that He have no--:;.; in this P::ov!.nce for the first tine. a job c:-:-eation ?rc;:-amr:le, and ' ~·

February 8, 1977 Tape no. 82 Page 2 - mw Nr. Nearv. we have the feceral job creation programmes, the federal works programme, and the young Canada Works programme, and the federal works programme is now going to be on a year round basis to take the place of LIP. And I do not see, Hr. Speaker, why this Province could not join with the Government of Canada in joint ventures of this kind for installing water and sewerage.- I am not talking about the fisheries -joint ventures in installing water and sewerage, especially drinking water, Sir, in the rural parts of this Province.

And the other point I want to make before I sit down, Hr.

Speaker, is that it seems to me that a lot of these requests are coming from Western Newfoundland, which must be obvious to the House that a lot of the communities in Western Newfoundland, in the rural areas and Bay of Islands - my han. friend just mentioned them - and down in Port au Port, Stephenville, down in my own district 1where you have the smaller communities, thev have been overshadowed in the last fifteen or twenty years by the larger communities, and I think it is about time now that, if we have any money to spend, if we can do some of these projects, that they should be done in Western Newfoundland and in Labrador.

SOME RON. ME~ERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: The han. member for St. George's. MRS. MACISAAC: !1r. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by the member for Port au Port (:-!r. Hodder). for a water and se<·;erage system for the community of Kippens. Kippens is a steadily expanding area, and for health reasons, as ,.,.ell as convenic.ncereasons, I feel that this community should have a proper water and sewer system. Water and sewer in this day and age is certainly not a luxury. SOHE RON. }.EO:BERS: He~r, hear!

MRS. ~IACISA.".C: The people of r:ippens and the people of my dis tric.t, where I h.e.ve at least twenty-three comnuni t~_.:;;s ~,·:w are hauling water from brooks and strearr:.s and -r.vherever possible, I think it is ti:!ll.e that. "this han. house took a look :tt. the \.later that have complete syste!:!.s,. ~\r.d there c.re ,:1n encrr.~ous n:...:n:Der of cm:::::'...;.~:itie~> ~' ')

February 8, 1977 Tape no. 82 Page 3 - mw Hrs. Nacissac. who have no water whatsoever, other than what is hauled, as I said, from brooks, streams and other communities, from council offices who have put a hose outside for the convenience of surrounding communities. And I do not think that in this day and age that this should be considered a luxury. And I fully support the petition presented by the member for Port au Port (¥J. Hodder). SOME HON. MD!BERS: Hear, hear! ') ' . ) .... t .

February 8, 1977 Tape 83 IB-1 ~!R. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. l'R. ROBERTS: Your Honour, I have another petition. I think this one has been ''ell supported. If there is nobody else who wishes to speak in respect of the one which my colleague from Port au Port (Hr. Hodder) presented, I think enough of us have spoken to indicate the feeling of all of us, Sir. Did the minister wish to speak on that? He has been conspicuous by his absence. Hr. Speaker, the petition I wish to present is one which is from the citizens of Goose Cove which municipally is known as Goose Cove East.

But since there are only one or two families living in Goose Cove \vest the whole area is now called Goose Cove. It relates to transportation. I am sorry the minister has not returned from Prince Edward Island where he nas been apparently achieving great things,we are told. I guess he will be back because I sent him a copy of the petition when I got it eight or ten days ago, and I had hoped he would be able to respond. But in any event, Sir, l€t me present the petiticn. I. think it is su=ed up by the typed portion of it.

"He the undersigned residents of Goose Cove are dissatisfied with the snow clearing service on the road between St. Anthony and Goose Cove.,especially the road through the corr~unity. The road has been impassable for almost two weeks and seven to eight foot snow cuts are making crossings in the co=unity almost impossible. This is especially dangerous for children walking to school.

Road conditions of this nature are also interferring with oil delivery services, mail ser7ice) telephone and hydro pmver services and causing many other inconveniences. \.ole 't•muld like to see this service improved to the point "tvhere these- other essentiai services are not disrupted. 11 - It is signed, Sir, by approximately 150 resiJents of the coTIU:mnity and that would be just about every citizen in Goose Cove of t~1e age of eighteen years or older. I surport the petitio~, Sir. Ti1e particular ~)rcblcrr. on the day •.

February 8, 1977 Tape 83 IB-2 HR. r..OBERTS: the general problem is still there, Sir. We have had a lot of snow in Northern Ne~efoundland this \Enter, much more so than the last few \-linters. In fact the last few Hinters have really been quite mild~particularly in the sense of snowfall. The snow clearing facilities have been improved. For example, there is now a second snowblower in the area where fo~~lly there was only one.

Snowblowers are really the essential piece of equipment, Sir, because a bulldozer and the other type of machinery used to clear snow can only push snow a certain height. 'men you get the types of snowfalls that we have been experiencing in the North these last few weeks,and you get banks of snow seven or eight feet high, then the only alternative is to supply a snowblo"er which can blow the snow up and over and keep the roads open.

But, Sir, even with the difficulties that are encountered because of the fact we have had additional snowfall,the fact remains, Sir, that the opening of roads and the maintaining of roads in drivable condition is absolutely essential. I do not need to go through all of the reasons. They have been well rehearsed in the House in the past. But let me say that in the type of civilization, the type of life we have today if the road is closed for a day or two or three in a co~unity in Northern Newfoundland or in Southern Labrador it has exactly the same effect as if the roads here in St.

John's are closed for a day or t\\TO or three. The whole of life is seriously inconvenienced. If it is closed much longer, people experience very great difficulty as well as inconvenience. One fact Hhich may shoH the type of snowfall that has been experienced this year) H;-. Speaker, is that the schools in my district­ up until the first of January, the Christmas break,had already been close.d for more days because of \.;eather than they had in the \Vhole of last Hinter or the <tvhole of the r,-Jinter before. In fact the schools in St. Anthony are closed agai!l today~ Sir, because of the ~·.>e:athecr conditions.

February 8, 1977 Tape 83 IB-3 MR. P.OBERTS: So in presenting the petition I regret the minister is not here to respond to it. The government have made some response but I say, Sir, that the response is not adequate. It is an improvement but it is still not an adequate response and I would hope, Sir, that the government in considering this petition will agree to put still further equipment in the area. It is needed and I think, Sir, it is justified. SOHE HON. }'EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. NE..A.RY: Hr.

Speaker, I support the petition presented by the Leader of the Opposition on behalf of his constituents in Goose Cove on the Great Northern Peninsula. I suppose, Hr. Speaker, that: over the past several weeks members, especially members who represent districts in the Western part of the Province and on t~e Great Northern Peninsula have receivej - and my hon. friend, ~he member for St. Georges (Mrs. Macisaac) can vouch for this -have received numerous complaints in connection with sno" clearing in Hestern Newfoundland and on the Great Northern Peninsula. The main reason, Mr.

Speaker, for the complaints are the obsolete equipment, the equipment,say,west of Grand Falls that is obsolete and should be taken out to the scrap pile. I have seen some of this equipment, Hr. Speaker. I have seen trucks that are practically rusted out and falling on the ground. They cannot even get them started to go out to put salt on the icy roads. I am seen graders twenty years old. It is a miracle that the operators can keep the~ moving at all.

February 8, 1977 Tape 84 PK - 1 HR. l<EARY: I brought this matter up with the Minister of Transportation and Communications on two or three occasions, Sir, and was told by the minister that he was in the process of moving new equipment down the Great Northern Peninsula, in the area that my friend spoke about in the petition, and in Western Newfoundland generally. But, Sir, the irony of all it all is this,that out in the l>'es tern part of the Province where you had the most snow, you have the worst equipment. You have obsolete equipment.

And on the East Coast,where you had very little or no snow this Winter, you had all new equipment. HR • HI CKMAl'l : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. HR. HICKMA."l: On a point of order. The hen. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Near;) most assuredly is offending against Your Honour's ruling about twenty minutes ago with respect to debate on petitions. Tnis is not at all associated 'dth the petition that is presently before this hon. House. AN HON. HE!-ffiER: Goose Cove East. MR. RIC~~~: Which is Goose Cove. HR.

SPEAKER: On this particular point of order, certainly the allegation in the petition related to or concerned the desire. th? necessity of keeping the road open in \-linter between point A a.rtd point B. 4\nd any co~~ents in support of the petition must be on the need to keep this road open> and b:.,r some comparison, roaGs by comparison. Certainly a reference to the condition of the machinery which is suppose to accomplish that objective could well be very closely related to the material allegation. But obviously it is not the subject or should not be the subject of the hor.. gentlema.~'s full support.

Presumably it is supple~e~tary ~ate~icl,' something he is ~aki~g in reference, in pGssing refere~ce. HR . nE.l:. WI : Thank you, Your Honour. I might say, Sir, tl:c..t: I hsd a conversation with a ge~tleman fro~ my hon. friend's distric:, :ro:-,l ... ') '. ,, ..... -: ; l

February 8, 1977 Tape 84 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: Goose Cove who told me that, in his opinion, all they did was paint up the equipment and sent it out there to make it look like new equipment, when in actual fact it was obsolete. It should have been scrapped. And, Sir, this situation is typical of what is happening in practically every district West of Grand Falls this past Winter. SOME HON. }!EMBER: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: West of Terra Nova,rny hen. friend says. But I know once you get outside of Donovans Overpass the equipment, Sir, is hardly fit to put out on the road. And as I said a few moments ago, Mr.

Speaker, here you have the heavy snowfalls in Western Newfoundland and on the Great Northern Peninsula, obsolete equipment, and on the East Coast in the Avalon Peninsula area where you have no snow or very little snow this Winter,all new equipment. And the minister told me only about ten days ago that he was then in the process of transferring some of the equipment out on the West Coast. Just another example, Sir, of locking the barn door after the horse is stolen. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further petitions? PRESENTil'!G REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COHMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: Mr. Speaker, we have a few little goodies to present to the Rouse today. We table t:1e Orders and Regulations of January 31, 1976 to February S, 1977 from the Department of Finance. We have The Province of Newfoundland Public Accounts for the year ended March 31, 1976, which I am sure will arouse some MR. ROBERTS: And the Auditor General's Report• MR. DOODY: And we have the much awaited Auditor ·General's Report for- SOHE RON. NENBERS: Hear, hear~ HR. DOODY: -the financial yea!:" ended 31 Harch 1976.

I ar.1. sure that the government Nill be applauded and lauded for the promptness in bringing forth, as -;;ell as these presented and prepared jointly by

February 8, 1977 Tape 84 PK - 3 Hr. Doody: the comptroller and t:oe Auditor General and then presentee! tor tne - persual of the !louse. MR. ROBERTS: I hope the Auditor General getsthe message. Sm·!E HO:l. t·lE''llER: Are we going to have him in the House aga.in.? MR. DOODY: No, no, we believe in having the House open. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Are there any further Notices of Motion? The hon. member for the Bay of Islands. MR. L. WOODROH: I have a resolution, Mr. Speaker.It reads as follows:

Whereas the number of trailer courts are continually increasing throughout the Province of Ne\<foundland and Labrador; And

whereas many tenants occupying these trailer courts are greatly dissatisfied; Therefore

Be It Resolved that a debate be held involving every phase of mobile homes, especially in the field of insurance and th~ collection of commissions by trailer park o~~ers whether the person decides to move from the trailer court and thus places nis trailer on the market. SOME HON. ME>lBERS : Hear, hear~

February 8, 1977 Tape No. 85 NM- 1 'ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. member :or Exploits. DR. THO~: I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to move the following resolutions:

WHEREAS the Government of Canada has recently concluded an agreement with the Government of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, providing for a twenty-five - seventv- five per cent division of revenues from oil and gas discoveries off the Coast of these respective Provinces; AND ~~REAS the Government of Canada has used tactics of pressure and intimidation in an attempt to force the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to accede to this same formula for the division of offshore oil and ges revenue; NOH THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this House reaffirm this connnitment to the principle that one hundred per cent of the revenues from offshore oil and gas should be paid to the Cpverm:Ient and the people of Newfoundland and Labrador in order to attain that A:-.'D BE IT FURTHER &':SOLVED that this House view the attempts of t!oe l;overnment of Canada to obtain a percentage of the rever.ues from oil and gas discoveries off the Coast of this Province as not~ing short of an attempt to rob the people of Newfoundland and Labrador of their rightful heritage; AND BE IT Fu~THER RES01VED that this House reaffirm its support of the efforts by the Government of ~!e\vfoundland and Labrador to retain full administrative control over che dev~lopme~t of the offshore oil and gas in the ~>aters of£ our Coast.

SO~·ffi HO~!. ~'fE:-~BERS : Hear! Rear! MR.. RIDEOUT: This land i.s our land. Any further notices of motion. T!le hon. ~~inister of Finance. HR. DCODY: ":1r. Speaker, could I ask leeve of tl:e House to tGble one furt:1er !:"eport. It is not a serious one. It Is the anr..ual ,, ,..., ________ ~ . .: -···' • -'-.! - t. ,. .l.ttJ\..J.I.<.. V.I. L-Lo<.- ··'-'·'-V .... uU . ._'-oU'- '-~'-t'-"'-'6.. '-'"-''-!J'-''-'-"-~~--•

Feburary 8, 1977 Tape No. 85 Nl1 - 2 ANSI-IE!'.S TO QUESTIONS F0R '-n!ICH XOTICF. EAS EEI::l GIVE'!: 'lR. SPEAKER: The hon. 'Unister of 1-'.anpoHer and Industrial Relations. ~fR. ROUSSEAU: ~r. Speaker, yesterday the bon. nember for Concention Bay South (~r. Nolan) raised a point that I was not at<are of when I gave my undertaking to look into it. That was a question of some layoffs down at Dominion Stores. I think the hon. member named the Comnany. We were not aware of them yesterday. We had the matter checked out. He met this morning with the gentleman involved.

He of course connnunicated our concern that in the event that Dominion Stores, or indeed any company in this Province has any indication of impending layoffs that }mnpower officials should be notified in the event that retraining is or would be helpful or necessary. l-Ie were quite disturbed by the fact that that had not been communicated, not only by Dominion Stores but whoever might do that sort of thing. The hon. member yesterday gave a figure of twelve to fourteen people.

As 1;-.re understand it, the t-ray this info~ation came I would assume is because Dominion Stores talked to their employees and unofficially of course somebody probably anproached the hon. member. The decision has not been made 1-1hether these layoffs would indeed take place. If there are layoffs, if there are~nd the decision has not been taken-it "tvould be more like half of the number that the hon. menber 1-1as told.

Hor-1ever, Dominion Stores has indica~ed that it is prepared to gi·ve us a report on it. t\nd again in the meantime it is our intention now, T.Ve are the midst of drafting a letter to Dominion Stores to give our vie"t-7S en it because >Ie feel that any_ national chain that sets up business in this Province o1·1es a certain res11onsibilitv as a corporate citizen to the ?ro .. ~Tinc.e and this gcYcrn:r .. ent is not 3.t all haouy >:·lith the :novement and the concentrat:!.on of mnny of the administrative t};inr;s belonging !:O these comnanies i.n Halifax. That is a matte:r of ~!'"e?.t concern~ ') ,.~ n l..... ,, ••

February 8, 1977 Tape No. 85 NM - 3 H'<. ROUSSEAU: Dominion Stores has given an undertaking to the deoart~ent that should they decide on the course of action suggested by the hon. member yesterday that he would certainly inform us previous. MR. SPEAKER: He are on Answere to Questions for which Notice has been Given. ORAL QUESTIONS: 1-lR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Sneaker, my question is for the Premier.

Ee has doubtless heard the announcement, Sir, today by Statistics Canada that the actual number of people unemplcy.ed in the Province has risen by 5,000 between the month of December and the month of January, from 24,000 to 29,000, IVhich means by Statistics Canada ,.,e now have 29,000 out ' of work in this Province. The actual number is probably far greater,but in the light of that would the Premier tell us llhether the gov·err~-rr..ent are going to increase the $~ million they have allocated to provide jobs? 'l - ,: • . I

February 8, 1977 Tape no. 36 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Premier. PR.ENIER ~!OORES: The answer is, Mr. Speaker, that we obviously do not intend to increase the $2 million which will just provide a very few of the jobs that we are talking about, 500 and poss~bly more than that, probably as high as 700. But that. was done foreseeing 1kat was going to happen. And I think it might be of note to say, Sir, that the unemployment in Canada has approached virtually nine per cent, which I think is a very serious national thing, and not just a provincial thing.

Our unemployment is very serious,as is the unemployment in New Brunswick which has approached virtually fifteen per cent. It is something that nationally we are going to have to have programmes to cope with. We, provincially,are going to have to do everything possible to cope with it. But in the interim, Sir, until such times as the programmes take effect, it is indeed a serious situation and one that we have had before, but I do not think ever more dramatically than at the present time. t1R. ROBERTS: A supplementary. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. ROBERTS: }!r.

Speaker, you knm<, really the experience in New Brunswick and the experience across Canada are of limited concern to the House of Assembly for Newfoundland and Labrador. But may I say to the Premier in growing out of his comment that this 5,000 jump in unemployment in this Province, and of those unemployed, the number unemployed, was - and I think he used this exact word - foreseen, and this led to the 500 job programme - PREHIER }lOORES: I did not say foreseen. HR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? PREHER }!OORES: I did~not say foreseen. HR. ROBERTS: The Premier, I am sorry, ~1r.

Speaker, did say foreseen. ! distinctly hearC him, and it strvck me as being a very important ·.vord and that is what led to the supplementary. In viev: of the fact that it is foreseen and governr~ent r s response was a 500 job program .. ,·.~e, could the. Premier tell us ~rhat he foresees for the next fe'",..r months \..~ith respect to the unemployf!'!cnr. si tuntion in Net .. n:ounalan~~ a.':"'!.d La.brador·c

February 8, 1977 Tape no. 86 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PRD!IER }!QQRES: I have no more idea of what the situation will evolve in any more than the Leader of the Opposition would the policy conference for Gander, Hr. Speaker. But the fact is he talks about these things here in this context, and he is making - when 1 say, foresaw a problem, 1 certainly did not foresee the figures. 1 do not think anyone could. But if he looks at the adjusted figures he will find that it is 1,000 less than there was last year. So let us not play games with figures, Mr. Speaker.

Let us identify that there is a serious problem, and serious steps have to be taken. But as the Leader of the Opposition has said often before, it depends on which figures you use. If you look at the adjusted figures, it is 1,000 less than this time last year; If you look at the unadjusted, it is 5,000 more. But, you know, you can play games forever with statistics. But the fact is, Sir, that it is a serious problem, and we are cognizant of it, and we will do out utmost to do something about it. HR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Terra Nova. HR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, 1 would like to ask the han. Premier if he could tell the House how many joint venture projects have been approved in Newfoundland in this calendar year? PRE!IER ~!OGRES: Hr.

Speaker, with joint venture projects as such, there has been one pilot project which was talked about wi.th the Government of Canada, which the Government of NeHfoundland was partially responsible for initiatin2;.,or responsible,which was in fact ';Vith the West Germans and Ocean Harvesters and Fishery Products as the two recipients to this end. ~But rather than get into it in a verv short period like this, I would, Sir, at any time be prepared, if this House is r.eady, to discuss this in full detail, because I think it is terrib2.y important th~t the information regarding ·what the potential is in the fut;.;r.e, vrhere \,.~e sit now in ;:;;_ewfoundland as far- as our rcsaurce is concerned, \·;~~2t it is going to be necessary to Dee£ up the inshore fisherv to 1>roject ou:-selvet= f) ;" r) !- . ) .l

February 8, 1977 Tape no. 86 Page 3 - mw Premier ~!cores. into the offshore fishery. I think the knowledge that these decisions must be based on,I think it is terribly important that it get before, not just this House, Sir, but, as I said the other day, I would suggest that the federal government officials, provincial government officials, industry representation, union representation, press representation, this sort of group, sit down informally so that all the figures can be gotten out, and all the facts can be identified.

And after that is known, then I think opinions and so on that can help formulate the policy for the future, can be made, and I think that should be done. That meeting by the way is hopefully for the week after next. And any time the House wishes for us to have a debate in the House on the whole subject, I think it is very important that we do so, because I think there is alot of misinterpretation of what . is happening right now. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: ar. Speaker, a supplementary question, and I thank the hon. Premier for the information that he has given the House. But would the hon.

Premier indicate whether or not the original 6,000, the pilot project, 6,000 metric tons I think it is, if that has now been increased to 20,000 metric tons to come from the Hmnilton Banks? !'REmER ~!OGRES : To my knowledge, ') :-: } ~'I 't

February 8, 1977, Tape 87, Page l -- apb }fr. Speake~, the co:::~c..::i:::.s ~.;ere advised that the 6,000 tons had been approved,but that was some time ago. There is nothing officially being confirmed, to ~ knowledge, yet, and certainly there is absolutely no indication that it be projected into 20,000 tons. As I understand it now,there is some complication about whether so much tonnage should go to Nova Scotia and so much tonnage to Quebec and so much tonnage to here. HR. NEARY: Of the Canadian quota. PREMIER MOORES: Of the Canadian quota.

But I think, Sir, it is very important, and that is surplus Canadian quota, I should say, I think it is very important to mention that-· MR. NEARY: That is what we will not catch, not surplus, what we will not catch. PREMIER HOORES: That is su-rplus to ••hat we will catch, that is right. That is what it is really, and that is where the 20,000 ton figure came from that the Leader of the Opposition referred to yesterday.

Hell I think, Sir, it is impo-rtant to say at this time that our position as a government has been that whateve-r project goes ahead this year should be done with the intention of establishing new technology, and the information for that; training potential for our o~~ people; the expansion of markets fer Canadian/Ne,.foundlar.d fish. It is basic to it to get that knowledge and to start opening up these ne" avenues is the only reason for any pilot or experimental project.

I think.it would be wrong at this time to have a col'llllercial venture because I do not think we,nor the Gove-rThuent of Canada, nor the Government of Nova Scotia knmv enough about it. I think we should handle it very carefully,and this is hopefully the way it will go. HR. NEARY: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. om.. SPE,\.'ZER: A supplementary. Hould the hon. the Prc:nier indicate to the House if the Province of Newfoundland, the Government of

February 8, 1977, Tape 87, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Newfoundland was invited to supply any input into the joint venture projects that have been approved for Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Quebec? If not, would the Premier indicate to the House why Newfoundland was not asked for its opinion,and would the Premier indicate to the House also if the hen. the Premier-has had a telephone conversation with Mr. Romeo LeBlanc the hen. Romeo LeBlanc recently in which Mr.

LeBlanc took a very arrogant attitude towards this whole matter of joint ventures, took the position that Canada would approve these without consultation, if necessary, with the various province~ that are involved in these joint venture projects? MR. SPEA..'<ER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : That is a very difficult but four- part question, Mr. Speaker. We were not asked to go in, consulted on the Quebec or Nova Scotia potential joint ventures, and I do not think we should have been anymore than we ask Quebec or Nova Scotia to be involved in the Newfoundland ones. These are provincial matters.

But regarding the federal government, Sir, we have stated our position as to what we think is the right approach. I have had several conversations with Mr. LeBlanc. They have varied from being very friendly to being, I suppose one could call it, quite difficult. But certainly it is not the time for me to say in definitive terms what the various aspects of those conversations were. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: }~. Speaker, is the Premier then satisfied with the co-operation and with the liaison and with the relationship with Mr. LeBlanc and the Government of Canada?

Is the Premier satisfied with that relationship at the moment or is there room for improvement and more co-operation on the part of the Government of Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, there is always room for imporvement. But I think it is fair to say at this time until 25G

February 8, 1977, Tape 87, Page 3 -- apb PREHIER MOORES: we have heard the official federal government's position our attitude as to what degree of co-operation and respect we should have would depend a great deal on what their final decision is. NR. SPEAKER: MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. the member for Twillingate. Would the Premier say in view of the fact that this is experimental, and for one year only, is it realistic to suppose that we would learn a lot from this one year experiment that would be useful to us,and that after that one year we could dispense with the Germans or any others in a joint venture project?

Is it enough to have one year, learn what we can and then dispose of it and go on our own from there on? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, that is - I am tripping over the }linister of Justice here, Sir, but - MR. HICKK~~: Everybody else does,why cannot you? PRE}ITER MOORES: No, everyone else steps on the Minister of Justice as a rule. If you ~1ill excuse me. No, this is one of the difficult problems with this particular discussion, because there is so much information that one has to make available that it is very difficult to have defined positions.

But we are talking about a one year joint venture or experimental project or Whatever the case may be. And the reason for that is because - HR. SMALLWOOD: It is all cod. PREMIER MOORES: Yes, but in a distinct are" of fishing and for cod only. The problem is, Sir, that Newfoundland or Canadian boats have never fished those waters extensively,if at all. 2:i7

February 8, 1977 Tape 88 IB-1 PRE!-!IER ~:OORES: I think the han. member for Fortune (Mr. J. lHnsor) will vouch for the fact that there are very few Newfoundland trawlers that have ever fished North of Cape Bonavista in the Hinter. -That technology has to be acquired. Observers will be on these boats this year. Now whether the ability of our people, the fishermen's union, the Province on a propaganda campaign or an educational campaign or what have you, whether we will be able to get our people to take on that same function is a very debatable point. Whether we should even try is debatable. The options are - MR.

SHALLHOOlJ:- Ever? PREMIER HOORES: Oh, ever yes. But you talked about one year, Sir, at the time. But the options are an increased inshore fishery, Which is by far the most economic method of fishing for capital invested and should be encouraged most. You are talking about middle water fishing as they have in Europe or in the UK,which gives more flexibility, less cost than distant water fish. And then you are talking about the bigger ships that go out for forty-five to sixty days. Now what is the combination of all that that can be maximized best· and to the most advantage by Newfoundlanders?

It is something that has to be identified. It is not something that certainly has been decided, It is something that, I think, all those who are concerned should be involved in, given all the facts, sit down, work out a plan for the future. A lot of training will be required. A great deal of encouragement and understanding is going to be required, But, as I say, I would much rather have a full debate on it in the House because there is so much to bring out to be discussed. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

SHALLWOOD: ~~y I ask the Premier where exactly the permission_ is to be given,if it is given,for the Germans to take this quantity of 2~8

February 8, 1977 Tape 88 IB-2 HR. S!-!ALLHOOD: fish whether it be 6,000 or 8,000 or 10,000 tons? I am not - }ffi. NEARY: It is 6,000 metric. MR. SMALUIOOD: Si.x thousand metric tons ,the hon. gentleman says it is. The area from which they are to be permitted to take that , is it the actual Hamilton Banks only,or is it a much larger geographical area that starts on the Southern end somewhere off St. Anthony or even South of that and then goes North to include the Hamilton Banks? PREMIER NOORES: The area is ICNAF areas primarily, 2GH and 3KL which in fact are from Cape Chidley to Cape St. Mary's. That is Cape St.

Mary's off into the Grand Banks just east of the Gullies, east of St. Pierre Bank, off towards the Flemish Cap including the Virgin Rocks, north on the Trench, up and including Hamilton Banks, North as far as Cape Chidley. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPE&XER: Is this a supplementary. I must ask the hon. gentleman whether he is asking a supplementary question? MR. NEARY: When the hon. the Premier returned from Europe when this deal was made with the !<est Germans, the hon.

Premier indicated publicly to the people of this Province that Newfoundlanders would be on some of these, or Newfoundlanders would have the opportunity to man these boats, to join with the West Germans as crew members on these boats. Was the Premier serious about this or did the Premier make that statement with tongue in cheek? PREHIER ~!OORES: No, there was no tongue in cheek at all. The offer was made that any or all of the crew membe"'s could be Newfoundlanders. With the short notice of time the union, I think quite rightly, could not mobilize the forces to do it.

I think they are getting observers on for this year and working on plans for the future, whether these boats are chartered, whether we build, whether we buy the ships, whatever the mechanism is. One of the points I think that should be recognized is that in order to catch the European quantity even at the reduced conserved 259

February 8, 1977 Tape 88 IB-3 PREl·!IER ~'OORES: level of fishing, if you know 1-1hat I mean, at the very lowest level like it is now, even at that level in order to fish that amount if we were catching it all ourselves,it is going to take something between $700 million and $1 billion investments in ships alone. - So obviously there has to be a mechanism of chartering, prying, renting, stealing or whatever the case is to get these boats because obviously we cannot do it out of Marystow-n Shipyard even though we can do some of it.

But certainly the big emphasis is going to have to be to get access to the present fishing capacity to be brought here to be operated by our people. HR. SPEAKER: I ~~11 permit an additional supplementary,and then there are some hen. members who are endeavouring to get questions, I presuree on different topics. So I think after this supplementary I should recognize them, Then of course the House may wish to revert to the subject. It is difficult to know to what extent to allot·7 supplementaries .,because it is difficult ::o know the matters on which other members wish to ask questions.

One can only assuree that these are quite important matters and if at all possible they should be given the opportunity to ask them. The hen. member for LaPoile. 2 ;; 0

February 8, 19 77 Tape No, 89 NM- 1 :·!R. :-..'F.ARY: ~!r. Speaker, I think Your Honour is quite right, This is probably the most i1'1portant matter to come before the people of this Province in a long time and we are getting some information today and I thank the hon. Premier. ~ait until the debate. HR. NEARY: Yes I know. I realize that hut we are trying to get information before we get into the debate. The Premier just raised a very interesting ~oint about the shins, the capability to catch the fish and so forth.

Now could the Premier confirm or deny that his government are negotiating • with foreign nations to acquire, to charter, buy, or lease- well charter or buy I guess - A'< !ION. >!F::·!BER: Beg, borrow or steal. '!R. ~ARY: beg, borro" or steal ships that '"ill give Ne,•foundlanders the canability 1:0 catch t!le fish ,and if so '-muld the Premier indicate 'l:·.?hich countries the government iS dealing with and r.vould the Pre.rnier also indicate while !le is on his feet what plans the fOVernment have or the private sector has,to build draggers or trawlers to give '<e,.foundlanders the - the ~re,foundland fishermen, Newfoundland trmvlermen the canabil Hy to catch the fish, our quota in the 200 mile management zone? :·fR.

SPEMZER: The hon. Premier. P~'TER HOORES: Cnce again, :1r. Sneaker, it is very difficult. There is quite a fet.v questions in that one. '!R. "WARY: I h2d that one for a while; it was sunuosed to be a surplementary. PRl'"If:R '·'00RES: Bur: the fact is~no,'-.1 € are not negotiating with any0nc <1t the nrcsent time. ':•!h,'lt ~\re are dainP: rtt the nresent time is cstahlishin~ nn inventory of ~1nt shins ~rp ~v~i1.nhlc in all the countri.rs t:!nt fish in t!1e :.Jort1Jt·.'t.:st .'·t1:n~t ic:. on invl?ntory of what to anpro<1.ch tc, find sh.i n av.::iJahil itv. 21i I

Fcbru"ry 8, 1977 Tape tlb. 89 NM- 2 PRF."TER "fl()Rf.S: An<\ for the inforr.u:ttion of the House I think it is ~ro!J~l,lv si~nifi~nnt tl1at iil Great Britian last year one-third of their fleet was retired for scrap because of lack of fishing grounds. This year the second third is being retired for scran, t·Thich ~eans there is onJy one-third of what was a verv large fleet just two years ago 1 in existence today. I suggest that this will be hannening, or the equivalent,in other f.nronean countries.

T think not that we are buying old boats or this sort of thing but T think it is very imnortant that we have an inventory of exactly what is available if in fact t<e are going to require it and that will he the decision of a lot of peonle. '1R. S'!ALLHOOD: That one-third is one-third of the entire fleet. PREmER ''00RES : Ttm-thirds of the entire fleet. Incredible. 'ffi.. SPEAKER: The han. member for Terra ~!ova indicated that he has a auestion next, followed by the hon. !"el!lber for Bellevue. '!R. LUSH: Nr.

Speaker, I would like to direct this question to the hen. ~·1inister of :·1anno1;,7er and Industrial Relations. I ~;vender if the minister can infor'"T! the Eouse if the ~overnment of this Province, the Gcvernmer·.·. --f ~Je~~Tfoundland and Labrador, has anv mechanism of its o<m to ,·,onitor the unemnloyment in this Prcvince~.-.~~c: I am snecifically concerned as to l;·:hether or not t 1le ~ir- · :·cr c;1n identify areas in the Province t._rhich are exneriencing the highest .level of unemployment? '!1' .• SPEAKER: The hon. 'finist<>r of ''annm,er and Industrial Relations. '"'.

R.fll'SSEAl': sav wo clo not ~ave th~t lcinrl of stnf( t0 ],c ~hlc to do thnt,hut i :• is t rn t l V(' and ~tntisti.cs :• .. :1'·-':: :t\',:[~."1:\:t· tn tl~. ') I .. ) '-" I .

February 3, 1977 Tape ~o. 89 NH - 3 left the rlen~rt01ent in 197t.-, in 0ctober, and 1 r€'turrot'd :1 ..... ,tin rhfs :~::.st 1 lctn!H:~r anO in that tuo vears that c!enart"':"!C''!:::.. '.·!hiC'.h h.""!~~ just hccn involved in restructuring:, has grm,:n trcncnrl0usly.

I think in the future it will he and I thin!~ the PepnrtMent of :~:tnnm.:er has ccrtninly grown but it has not groPn - it h:1s .l""';rmvn through ~fanpO':.Jer consultingJ that is a sort of defin<.te thinr i Right no~<. from a statistical point of view, \Ve h.qve not reached thnt perfection yet. l-Ie certainly do hone to but as I say ~<e can rely on the. Federal ryenartment of ~ .. !"annm·?er and our limited resources to give us some indication. "R. SPEAKER: A sunplementary. "? .. LUSH: Again a question to the ~<inister of ',~anpower and Industrial Relations.

I wonder if the minister has anv information related to the character of the unemplo~ent in Ve~·rfounc11and, t:1at is related to the kinds of occupations . th3.t neonle are unemnloyed in or educational level, a~e and that sort of thing. 'fR. SPEAKER: The hon. ''inister of Nanno~<e.r and Industrial "Relation. ""-. R0l'SSEAU: :rr. Speaker, som2time in 1974 :'II believe it 1;vas, I asked a very simnle auestion to the Federal Minister of :fanpmver as to <<hat the profile ~;as of ~<ho ~<as unemployed, <;here ~<ere they une~mlo;Ted and so on and so forth.

It was a sab_4ect of more discussion and articles but nobody gave r1e any figures then and I d.o not think anvhody ~vi.J.l Rive rne figures nmv. For example., the r·1c list is different than the ones 1A1o are listed v;ith may lH? J i.stcd toriav. f.l.1.v Move out of tm·'TI ~:nd t:l.f'V _. . .,..(> listed in t\vo or three different offices.

February 8, 19 77 Tape 90 PK - 1 Mr. Rousseau: It is an extremely difficult thing to get. I asked for it,as I say, a couple of years ago. You can get some generalities.! found out I think at that time, as I recall, there t.;ere about a couple of hundred canners in Gander, you know, people who just put their name d01m, and very seriously who may have moved out of there into some other area. But we have a lot of difficulty trying to examine a profile. I think they have perfected it to some extent now.

Of course, it is all done on the basis of statistics, and random sampling, and addition and multiplication factors involved so it is not really a count of the actual number of people, and I guess you could just interpolat it beyond that. But we t.rould have a very difficult problem trying to identify the total number in respect in which area each one was, and in tvhich job occupation they were able to comply tdth if there was a job open. But we could get some generalty, some interpolations of the figures undoubtedly from Canada Nanpower or from UIC. MR. SPE..A.KER: The hon. member from Tiellevue.

MR. lL CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. Would the Premier inform the House whether or not the Come By Chance Refinery is likely to be re-activated in the very near future? And/or what efforts are government making to re-activate and possibly expand the refinery when it is reopened? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Yes, I have had - and I tmuld thank the hen. member for giving me notice that he was going to ask this question, :1r. Speaker.

TI1e fact is that even though there is no clear response, as we understand it, and it is the receiver who is. making the basic judgment, there are three groups active at this present time; one being :!r. Shaheen's group who still remain active, another froup that is in touch •i th the receiver ,and another group vho are represented through Morgan Stanley as another client. Now the British and ourselves are in constant communication as to t.:hat is the best thing to do. !u1d l c~n assure the House, and unfortunately I cannot give any of the details

February 8, 1977 Tape 90 PK - 2 Pre.'llier tloores: of how these things have progressed, because I genuinely do not know, nor I might suggest do the principals involved. I mean they are all going in their own way to try to bring it to a head as quickly as possible. The receiver is working very hard on it. And the one thing, I think, that can be pointed out is that:another Winter in mothballing will be severe and could cause severe problems. And I think that has to be recognized by the receiver, ourselves, the first mortgagee or whoever. That is all taken into consideration, and hopefully, Mr.

Speaker, by early Spring we will be in a position to have a much more definitive answer. And I am only sorry now I cannot give a more definitive answer, but unfortunately I cannot at this time. MR. SPEA.tzER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. HR. ROBERTS: A question for the Minister· of Public Works. In view of the very serious potential abuses of the Public Tenders Act revealed by the Auditor General, and specific paragraphs which I am sure the minister is familiar with, specific paragraph (96) pages - Al{ HON. MEMBER: You got it? MR. ROBERTS: Yes, just got it.

The government have apparently had it for a week - page 107 on. Can the minister tell us - SOME HON • :1EMBERS : Oh, ch: MR. ROBERTS: Well it is dated the 31st. of January, that is why I say the government have had it for a week. MR. PECKFORD: Does it say dated, the day the government got it? HR. ROBERTS: --·--~- Mr. Speaker, the report is dated - HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: ---- - the 31st. of January, addressed to the Hon. C. W. Doody, Hinister of Finance. Hr. Speaker, my question is for the !'inister of Public Horks.

In view of the serious and apparently deliberate abuses of the Public Tenders Act,could the minister tell us Hhnt steps he hns taken, and if he only got the report tOCily the L>t.~verB should be nt it today.

February 8, 1977 Tape 90 PK- 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works. HR. ROUSSEAU: o!r. Speaker, if the report was out today I had a- and the Auditor General of course writes the departments for their views on this sort of thing. A letter was written back, and I had a statement I wanted to give, I did not know the report was going to be given out today. And I will make that statement within the next day or so, it .is do=. in my office. In the meantime, I can assure the hon.

Leader of the Oppcsition that all steps are being taken, the department in consultation with Treasury Board and the Organization and Hanagement Division to atteml)t to make sure that this sort of thing does not happen again. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member from Port au Port, followd by the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. J. HODDER: A question for the l1inister of Social Services. I wonder if he can tell me what criteria was used to decide the areas where the seventy-seven labour intensive projects are to be carried out, concerning the $2 millions for the eml)loyement? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Social Services.

MR. C. BRETT: Yes, Hr. Speaker. All of the projects, every single one of them,were thought out, drafted and so on by the special projects officers, the five special projects officers across the Province. As far as I know it was based strictly on the number of people that were receiving assistance in any given area. MR. HOODER: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. HOODER: Does that mean that where there are large concentrations of social services recepients,they will receive Priority? HR. BRETT: Yes that is exactly true, Sir. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary there, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Would the ~!inister of Social Assistance - AN !ION. ~!E)fllER: Social Services. '> I' ~' "-" ltl

February 8, 1977 Tape no. 91 Page 1 - mw MR. FLIGHT: Could the Minister of Social Services tell the House or spell out where the jobs he referred to are? Where are they located in chis Province? MR. BRETT: I, indicated in my statement, Mr. Speaker, that I would table the list of projects later this week, certainly before Friday. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Finance, Sir.

I would like to ask the minister what is going to happen following the termination of the three week shut -down at the Linerboard mill at Ste;:>henville? 1-.'hat will happen following this three week period? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: You know, I honestly cannot answer the question, Sir. I do not know what will happen after the three week shut-down. It has been our hope that the Linerboard mill will not have any shut-downs. But the position out there now is dictated by the marketplace.

My understanding from the chairman and the chief executive officer and the president of the company, Mr. Sweeney, chat as soon as they get sufficient orders to get the operation going, then the operation will go again. Whether these orders are in place at the present time or not, I have not been informed. I would think that if they were, then I would have been. So, you know, I honestly cannot say. I would hope that the mill will reopen again after three weeks. If they do not have the orders, quite honestly it will not open again. The marketplace is in a desperate state. It has never been worse.

It has not improved. And the mill's close down is as a result of the marketplace. ~JR. SPEAKER: One supplementary. MR. NEARY: Nr. Speaker, do I understand the minister correctly then that there are no orders at the moment so there is no indication that th<· Linerboard mill will reopen after this three week close down? And would the minister also indicate, when he is answering me, if the government have received any proposals to dispose of the Lincrboard Qill for $1 to any company across Canada? ') ! ' . ' '"' ll i

February 8, 1977 Tape no. 91 Page 2 - mw HR. SFEAKL"Of{: Yne hon. minister. MR. DOODY: The first question, I will keep a straight face on me, because I know it is a serious question~ To the best of my knowledge there are not sufficient orders in place right now to reopen the mill, and to have it activated again. As to whether we have had any offers for $1 to buy the mill, the answer is, yes. I, myself, my daughter and my son have all thrown in offers, and they have all been turned down. We have not had any serious offers to buy the mill. HR. NEARY: I am thinking of the Power Corporation of Canada mainly. cffi.

DOODY: No, they have not offered us $1 for the mill,to my knowledge. They had more sense than either I, my daughter or my son. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Ferryland. ~ffi. O'BRIEN: Yes, ~tr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier a question,if I may, concerning the joint ventures. I am curious as to when they speak about 6,000 tons, are we talking about 6,000 tons of fish or fillet? Because my understanding is that this West German ship will be bringing in bone-in, skin-off fillet, and that makes quite a difference to the amount of raw fish that may be taken. ~ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier.

PREMIER MOORES: Six thousand tons from the quota, Twenty-four hundred tons of landed product. ORDERS OF TilE DAY: HR. SPEAKER: Order

(1) The adjourned debate on the amendment to the Address in Reply. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. SOHE HOI/. HEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~!R. ROBERTS: Naybe I should quit now. offi. PECKFORJJ: That is a good question. HR. ~-lEARY: Sock it to tltem. That is very valid. c!R. ROBERTS: It is certainly more valid than anything the hon. gentl~m<:Hl from Green Bay (:·tr. Pcckford) would say, "!r. Speaker. ') l' 0 1...1 } ~..,

February 8, 19 77 Tape no. 91 Page 3 - mw Hr. Roberts. Let me resume where I was cut off in the debate yesterday when the clock had run out, as it were. Let me begin by extending to the gentleman from Green Bay (Hr. Peckford) an invitation to participate in this debate early on. I understand he has been assigned the enviable task of responding for the government: in respect of my rem,.rks

FebruGry S ,1977 Tape 92 AH-:1. ~lR. ROBERTS:. Hr. Speaker, yesterday I had oc.casion on a number of occasions to ask hon. gentlemen opposite if they Hish to carry on their little chats, to have them outside. The Premier may not often see his colleagues in the Cabinet, but if the Premier Hishes to have chats with them I wonder if he could either have the chats. in a very lm• tone of voice.

And indeed anything discussed ~<ith the l!inister of Tourism should be done in a lmv tone of voice,or could he leave the chamber , as '>e had nmv done.'md I ~<auld say to the page ~I have already three copies of that bill, and the fourth-I thank you very much Hhile '•e are at it ,!!r. Speaker, as well I >·Ionder if perhaps the pages could be asked not to put tpapers in front of the ~ember who is speaking. Host of us ,_ Sir, have some notes, and the notes may be improved by reading some of the documents tabled in the !louse. but, Sir, it does not make things go any easier. Hr.

Speaker, as I ~<as saying I hope the gentleman from Green Bay will enter in the debate early on. Ile obviously has dra>m the enviable assignment of replying to my fe>J h~b~e and brief remarks. And I would listen with real interest to what he has to say. And I would say to him, he would be on shortly. I am getting ~<ell through the introduction to my speech and shortly will be getting into the major points I wish to make by ~<ay of comment upon the Throne Speech.

And I would say as well, Sir, that the gentleman from- Green Bay 1 I can write large parts of what he will say nmv, because I invite him to get up and sav I have been negative, and that I a"! being destructive,and that I am not putting forth positive proposals. And I hope he will say all those things, because of course , Sir, not only is that not correct ,even thou~h it rna"' tvell be his opinion. I ,\rould say to him chat it is incumbent upon him to govern and upon us to oppose. And if he wishes he may cross the !louse, I hope he is now about , Sir, to cross the Jlouse 1 to sit as yet another independent.

Hear, hear!

February 8, 1977 Tape 92 AH-2 HR. ROBERTS: . As one of a number of independents. I am glad there arc some members who can resist temptation. From Hhat I hear there are others 11ho cannot. And I may add the Auditor General's Report on a quick look through appears to confirm that,Sir. There will be fertile ground in there for questioning and debate. There are many. items in there which appear to ae on the verge of illegal as opposed to simnly improper • It is surprising how often,just looking it through, consultants 11ere given money under contracts that did not exist or in excess of ~mounts authorized by contract.

The Auditor General being a gentlemen does not name those consultants in most cases,but I would assume there would be questions placed on the Order Paper and that in due course t-re will get the information so that the House and the people of the province can judge for themselves the merits of the governments actions. Th b 1 . h ' .ere seem to e an unseem y anx1ety on t e governments part to aid consultants to balance their balance sheets even if the result was to unbalance the talnncc sheets of the province Newfoundland and Labrador. :-:r.

Speaker, when I spoke yesterday I had touched upon some of the major points I would wish to deal with. I had talked at so:--·e length about the economy of the province because I believe that is the major matter which must concern us in this session. I had snoken of some of the deficiencies,as I see them:in the economy of the province. And I had said again,as I had said before,that it is the governments duty to produce for the Hous~ some proposals and snf'1e sug-gestions as to ways in ~ ..

Thich our econonic situation can be i.:nl')roved. :'!o~v , Sir, I do not nropose to stand here .an<i to make a <:,·wec.h from the T;•."rone or a mini Speech from the Throne, and I do not r>ronose to offer a series of plans right here and nm·; that eould be considered the solution to all t~e proble~s facing this province tod:-;v. The rovernment have had t·uelve r:tonths ) ~ir, since the House i~~t assemhled. TI1ey i1nve !1nd six or seven montl1s since t!1c l~ousc ') ~ 1 '- I

Fehrua:ry R ,1977 Tape 92 A!!-3 l!R. ROlJFRTS: last met. There are sixteen or seventeen ministers in the r.overnment. They have access to all of the public s~rvice 1 '/ery intelligent who 'tvork in the public service, very hri ght and knowledgeable men and uomen who are available to assist the ministers. They have the advantages of information from the Government of Canada. They have all of the expertise and knowledge that could possibly be made available to any government. It is their job to produce for the House some plans.

And vhile I expect we ,yill hear from the ;f,<"ntleman from Green Bay, and I have no doubt the f,entleman Grand Falls 1 probably some others, but they will he the tx;o because they are trying to make their name. r.re expect they ~Jill be getting up and whining and trying to defend themselves by attacking the opposition. And if they want to do that, that is a perfectly proper tatcic •

February 8, 1977, Tape 93, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: But I shall say, Sir, and I say now on behalf of us all, that it is a waste of their time, a waste of our time,and a waste of the Province's time because they will not convince us, they cannot convince themselves 1 and the people of the Province have already judged for themselves the spectacle of a government that after five years in office has produced no plans and is still acting like they are an opposition. I would like however, Sir, to talk briefly about the fishery.

I was just getting into this yesterday and the Minister of Fisheries and I lvere developing a little bit of a colloquy back and forth. I think that the fishery is something which is very important to the economy of this Province. It is not all that significant perhaps in terms of overall dollars, dollars spent or dollars earned, if you wish, but it is supremely important in terms of the numbers employed in the fishery and in the terms. of the impact that these jobs have.

Because, of course, they are spread throughout the Province, particularly in the rural areas,and in many of the rural areas the fishery or fishery generated and related jobs are the only really possible source of employment, certainly employment to any significant extent. Now, Sir, if I tvere to fault the government for any one area more than any other it "ould have to be in the fishery,because this government carne into office back in the early Hinter of 1972, it was !n January,1972 as I recall it, professing great plans for the fishery •.

In the previous campaign which had been held in October of that year, the Premier went about the Province and made a number of speeches which sounded very good indeed,and I have no doubt were meant to sound very good indeed, speeches in '-"hich he said l<hat would be done to develop the fishery. The people, I think, believed that. They wanted to hear this, the people of the ProvincE' did, and because the Premier had worked for a numher of years in the fish ') ., . ) '-' I .l

February S, 1977, Tape 93, Page 2 -- apb '!R. ROBERTS: business, the family enterprises, the ~ortheastern Fish enterprise at Harbour Grace, they felt further that he obviously had some expertise. Hell I will not say anything about that except that what seems to ce so often is not so. But I do want to look at the sorts of promises they made because they have not been kept,nor have we had any explanation as to ,;hy they have not been kept or possibly ~<hy they cannot be kept.

So I ask the Minister of Fisheries ,,hen he speaks in this debate, as I hope he will and I am sure he will, to talk for a few minutes - he will have forty-five minutes according to the rules, more if he chooses to put down a motion of nonconfidence, then he· gets unlimited time and he will need it,I would think, to explain a motion of nonconfidence coming from a minister,although there is a precedent. I was reminded the other day by the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) that at one stage the Premier of the Province did second a motion of nonconfidence in his administration, Sir William Lloyd back in 1919 I believe it was. A motion of nonconfidence was made by the opposition side, there seemed to be no seconder so the Premier stood up and seconded it and in due course the motion carried. But I ,;auld invite the Hinister of Fisheries to tell us about the goverr~ent's fishery plan with some specificity - I think I got that correct - with some specific detail. \{e heard from the Premier. back in 1971 about the Dutch auction system,and we heard nothing since.

I would like to know ;1hether it is proposed still to implement th~t ~nd if not, why not? And if the reasons whv it is not ~inistpr squ,tre that with the Premier's public commitment? liP ~-:.:<~ nnt. Pn·rni0r .1t that point~he was lenrlcr of a party, a man Sr'f'V inP to 'he> Prf>mi..cr, hotv he squnres both positions? ') '"' !. c. I !

Fehrunry 7, 1977, T.:1pe 93, Page 3 -- apb HR. ROBERTS: Because I suspect the reasons why that system to dRte has not been implemented, and I assume the fact th<1t it has not bcc~n i.nplP-!"lf'ntPd is evidence of the fact that it is not EOing to he implemented, that the evidence of that, or the reasons why were as well known in October of 1971 as they are in February of 1977. I would also ask the minister please to tell us a little about further processing of fish. Nmv this is something Phich has cropped up - perhaps the goverr.ment Whip could whip away for a moment or two.

I will not be long with the ~!inister of. Fisheries and then the gentle.'ltan from Bonavista North (Hr. Cross) could have whatever converse he needs to have with the minister - but I would ask the minister to talk to us about the further processing of fish because this is a bit of a hoary perennial. It has been around, I guess, as long as there has been fish. The onlv one that is more ancient or more ~iidespread is the smoking of s.almon,and !!!)' friend and colleague from Eagle River (Hr. Strachan) last year, I think, laid this one out in some detail and showed ,,•hat could be done and what had to be done.

Of course it is a matter of regret that nothing has been done by the government with respect to the smoking of salmon. But the further ') r .. ( '·· I . l

February 8, 1977 Tape 94 PK - 1 'l r, Roberts: processi.ng of fish: N01; yesterday, it was yesterday, Sir, I read the words from the Throne Speech,rhe same words were used in 1972 as in 1977, or almost the same words, certainly the same ideas. Why has nothing been done; I am assuming nothing has been done, and that is a valid assumption. There may be a little that has been done, I think, Fishery Products,in particular,are doing some- 'Pat' are they doing some breading up at the plant in Burin now and in Marys town? HR, CA.L'INING : They have been doing it a long time. HR. ROBERTS: Yes.

That is just it;they have been doing it for . a long time, and they are not doing it as a result of any government program.'lle or any government encouragement, They are doing it because in their view, as a connnerical operation, and very shrewd operators indeed the men who run Fishery Products Limited, you know, that there is a dollar to be made in it. Well,I would like to know what the government intend to do? And the lvords are here in the Throne Speech. They were here five years pas~almost the same words. Nothing has been done by the government. Nm•, you know, why not is an important question.

But that is essentially dealing «ith the past, and I am not terribly interested in that. l.Jhat I am interested in is what is going to be done? Are these just more empty words? ~.Jhat specifically can be done? What are the goverrmlent proposing to do·? \{e export from this l'rovince each year millions and millions and more millions of pounds of fish fillets, many of them go out in the form of five pound blocks or fourteen pound- is it fourteen or sixteen? fu'l HON. 'lE-'lBER: Sixteen and a half pound blocks. 'lR. ROBERTS : Sixteen and a half pound blocks.

I th;:mk my - there is an awful lPt of expertise in the fishery bus:ness over here, in all aspects of the fishery business; men who have run large plants, as my frienJ from fortuno-!1ermit.J.ge (:-!r. J. h'insor). :tv friend from Ferrylan<..! (:'·1r. o'grien) tvho has Guilt anJ run~ a very succC's~:;ful in the business. ify friend from gurin-PlaccntLJ \\est (:lr. C.:.mninl:) " ., I' "' I 1

February 0, 1977 Tape 94 PK - 2 Hr. Roberts: '"ho has .J lonr, cxpc~riPnce Hith the fishery, and uith the operation l~ut •.-·c export :::.illions of pounds of fish, much of it in the form of sL,teen and a half pound blocks, some of it in the form of five pound blocks, some of it in the form of IQF, individually quick frozen fillets. l>hat are we going to do for further processing? lihat do the government propose? Is it just another pipe dream? Or do they have something specific in mind? You can only do so many things t<ith a pound of fish, Mr. Speaker.

You get it from the wat~r, and you cut the head off, and you take the gut out, and then you fillet it, and you are left with about a third of the landed tceight of the round fish. It varies, the recovery varies significantly from time to time, and from plant to plant, and even, I guess, f ::om <vorker to worker within a plant. But as a good tvorking average you are left with about a third, and that is the part that He eat. Host of it is edible if it were made into fish nrotein concentrrtte.

That Has the great answer, I suppose., ten or twelve years ago; fish protein concentrate <vas going to be the answer but it did not work out fer one reason or another. But nm< Hhac do the government propose to do with that pound of fish? Just what can be done to add labour to it? Can it be breaded , and made into breaded portions? Are they going to make it into fish and chips? You knO'«;·ls just t..rhat do they propose to do? And hmv much additional labour will it produce·? Obviously the government has some detailed plans. They must.

There are specific t·!Ords here in t~1e Throne Speech, but they are no: specific programmes.· Let me say if I c<:m find the words, ~lr. Speaker. There are so many 'wrds here, and so little information, it is sometimes hard. Well, thev do not spring readily to mind, Sir .Hy indexing system concentrates on the realistic ide<.>.s. Hut .1~:'''··':n·, the reprocessing is back in here . ~lf'.<i.in, and I ~..rould }i;ze LI!~..' min_;~;tcr to tell us specifically what ::hey

Febru3ry 8, 1977 Yape 94 PK - 3 Hr. Roberts: \Jords or the statements of intention; empty or not, we have had all those. Exactly \,'h.:tt do they see? And I would like him as well to talk to us about the 5,000 jobs in the joint ventures which the Premier promised us fo_llouing the German trip some months ago. I believe the minister accompanied the Premier on that particular excursion. And while I do not have the press cuttings in front of me, the Premier announced in behalf of the government on the way back that joint ventures could provide 5,000 jobs. I would like for him to talk to us about that.

My understanding of the 6,000 tons which we spoke of, and my friend from Ferryland (Mr. O'Brien) has asked a question which made it clear that, that is '! .• " :... l !"'

February B, 1977 Tape ~~o. 95 NH - 1 'R. Hn RERTS : 2,400 tons of filleted bene-in prodt~t that t.Ji ll f.O .:1shorc in ~ 1 nrvstov:n or Jiarhour Grace, if tlv: nronosal is acceptccl~and will then he further filleted, and that may nrovide betueen 300 and 4'10 jobs at each plant for three to four months. Nm• if that is so we are talking of possibly 300 to 400 jobs for six to eight months.

If you uork that out that is about 400 to 500 jobs for a year, which is one- tenth of the number of jobs whid1 the Premier spoke of in his public statements.And given the fact that that 6,000 tons is one-third of the allm>able harvest in the scientific sense of that - the minister shakes his head. 6.000 is near enough to one-third of 20,000 which is the alloHable harvest of the Canadian portion reserved fer deep sea of that particular H.am.iltcn Banks stock. There may Hell be other stocks.

There are other stocks,but I am speaking of t,e only stock in resnect of \·7hich joint venture oropsals to my kno"~:..rledge. ~!R. 1'1. CARTER: You are speaking of 1977. I am talkinR of 1977, yes. Yes. Today. Yes. As Lor•' Keynes llsed to say, in the long run we will all be dead. So we prefer to S'11eak of the short tem. \·7e have to live through 1977 before 1oe apnroach 1973. He must think of 1973 but we must also be some~\rhat conscious of 1977. :'!R. PECKFORD: Fantastic. 'fR. RO!lf'ZTS: Yes. It is fnntasti.c. t\nd if a min"Lster Hould onJ v grrtsn that fact ~·Ie T'1i<;?;ht he a long t.·:avs ahend.

T.f the ~!i.nister·of Energv coul.d onlv ~rasn the fact that before his dren~s comes to fruition we are all ~oin~ to he rnvin~ so fri~!1tfullv .. ~' ',, '': . : ·:· ,.,. •'' ' .. :·,,!-: , .. ') .. q I . ,

Febru:trv 8, 1977 Taoe ~o. QS f\l}f - 2 '·~. R0DEPTS: :tnd verv relavant, very much to the point. And I think the !!linister 1wuld ap;ree that, Hhether he agrees Hith I·Jhat I sav or not ,th<'.t these points are matters which !!lUSt be discussed. So I 1.rould like to know vhat hapoened to the 5, 000 jobs~or more orecisely,if the minister still helieves we will get them, when He Hill get them, Hhere lve Hill get tfJem, and holY we <Vill get them.

I 1-muld like him also to tell us of the goYermnent 's plans to exoand the catching canacity of our fishermen because it is obvious, Sir, that the catching canacity is the key. The real reason <>e are• in this bind over the .ioint ventures, or I think there is a new term on them no<V,co-nartnershins, the real reason is that we do not have the catching canacitv. And yet at the same time paradoxically almost all of our trawlers and draggers are going out and catching far less than they are designed or actual catching capacity.. \.Jhat are thf'y averaging, I ask mv friend from Fortune- Hermitage (Hr. J.

Winsor), a third or a quarter of what they could be taking? ''R. J. HINSOR: Now? '·!R. !WEERTS: Yes. Forget the quotas, because the quotas do not restrict the amount of fish as much as they say so many trins a month. A quarter, a half on the Banks? 1!R • .J. :-n~sOR: Less t!'an a half. !'-!R. ROBERTS: Less than half. ~y friend from Fortune-Hermitage ('·1r. J. ~Vinsor) says s0tT1e have been catching next to nothing. So T mean 1:ve have a tra":vler fleet that could be catching t~vo or three times as much as it is catching now.. .:'\m I r-ight?

H:lvhe if the fish w,1.s there. ~·!'e \~~ill cor:1.e back to that po.int. 3ut ~.,.~ h~ve n canacity and vet in the li~ht of that cnnacitv we are t~lking of ioint vcntttrcs. '·H~. u. (' \P1TP : ' 1 r. Spc:::;.;r. c<'n I - 2 'll

February 8, 1977 Tnre No. 95 NH - 3 !-\"{. W. CARTER: I thank the hon. member, I do not thin!·. he deliberate]:, means to mislead the :'ouse but obviously what he is s<1yin~ is. The present catching efforts is catching about half,I think. I think the average stern dragger is ~apable of landing 7.5 million pounds of fish a vear.They are landing about half that much. \ole are not talking about the co-operative fishing ventures, Hr. Sneaker. l-Ie are not talkinf! about shins that would fish in areas that are traditionally fished by our ehisting fleets.

We are talking about co-operative fishing ventures in the ice infested, inaccessible areas, the Northern areas, where these ships ,.,ould not be' capable of fishing at this time of year because they do not have the ice re-enforcing capability. MR. SMALL\VOOD : They certainly would. MR. ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, before my friend from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) and my non-parliamentary friend from St. '!ary 's - The Capes (Mr. W.

Carter), we may be friends in the nersonal sense, indeed I hone we are, but in the parliamentary sense we are not now friends, before they get into too much of a debate let me carry on and say that both these gentlemen in their anxiety and desire to dispose of the thing have anticipated points that I was going to make. '-"~ f '-·

February 8, 1977 Tape 96 IB-1 HR. ROBERTS: I must be allowed,subject to the rules~to make them in my own way, to develop the line of argument. Because the gentleman for Twillingate (~\r. Smallwood) of course brou;;ht out the fact, as he did today at Question Period,which completely explodes the government's whole case with respect to joint ventures.

I mean it is the pin that pricked the balloon of hot air,and the fact that these joint ventures are now,according to the Premier, restricted to the area bet1<een Cape St. }fury's in the South and Cape Chid ley in the Northl which is the whole area that we have ever fished other than along the Southwest Coast and· up into the Gulf and thee1 down the North1:est Coast, the whole area we have fished,particularly the deep sea area.

But let me go on, Sir, because as I said we have - and I had drawn no conclusions, I had merely made the statement that we have the paradoxical situation where on the one hand there are stocks that ~ve cannot catch. Now whether we should catch them or not is a matter that must be discussed. But we can agree that He cannot catch those stocks with our present ships. We do not have the ships that are necessary to fish at this time of the year 1 or in the next month or the month after, in the waters off the Hamilton Banks which is, by the way, the nursery of our fishery.

At the same time 'h1e have ships that are not paying their 1;ay in the sense they are not catching anything like the fish they are designed to catch or capable of catching and could catch at really no additional cost. I nm referring to the tra1;ler fleet, the ninety- five or one hundred ships 1-.'llich supply our fish plants around this Province. Now, Sir, I think that this question of catching capacity I'1Ust be at the heart of the whole fishing policy, the ,.,hole policy on fisheries. 1.-Je have talked for years about stocks as i.f it were the only prohler.~.

It is a problem hut that is no·h~ cominr: :.mder control. We l1nvc n 2(}0-milc li~it. It i.s in force. It is in effect. Tl1is year we_ nre us inr; the ouotas tlw.t h.:1ve been set by ICNAF. ~ext yc.:1r ') s ') 1-o I ... ~

February 8, 1977 Tape 96 IB-2 HR. ROBERTS: we ~<ill be setting our omt quotas. They ll'.ay or may not be different. I mean,I have no way to know that. But next year the quotas will be developed by Canadian officials, Canadian ministers as well~and presumably on the basis of Canadian scientific data. Tha quotas may or may not be significantly different and of course we do not know whether any or all of any particular quota will be allocated for the foreign fishermen, the foreign fisheries fleets.

Indeed I think it can be said that if we do not have the capacity to catch a stock "'hich ought to be caught, then,you know,our case in world public opinion, in the world of international law 1 is very weak. If we cannot catch it, I suppose we are obligated in the moral sense, in the very real sense as well,to allow some other nations to catch it. HR. SPEf\J{FR: Did somebody say no? I am Borry. it was 6outeUuU.y out _;_n tile g2 llery . l"R. Sl·~LVOOD: l~e could decide to just hold it as a nursery. HR. ROBERTS: The hen. gentleman for Twillingate (Nr.

Smallwood) is again anticipating a point I wanted to make because, cf course, we could - the question is whether we should or should not catch any particular quota. It is worth looking at the quotas. The information is quite public, but I suspect many hon. gentlemen have not had the opportunity to look at it. If '"e look at the area to which the Premier adverted today ,,,hich is IC~lAF 2J3KL - that essentially, Mr. Speaker, for those who like myself are not intimately familiar with the. ICNAF area, that is the Cape Shore to the Cape St. ~!ary 's. It is our Northeast Coast and our East Coast.

And the ~outhem Shore. The total quota for this year, the total allowable catch, is 160,000 tons of fish. Now if you want to compare that to other areas, ICNAF area 1 was 31,000, area 2 "~;Vas 20,000, area 3lf- "-'e are coming around the South Coast new, around Cape Race and. goinr, \.Jest - was 25,000, 3NO "12S 30,000, 3PS "t>'as 32,000. ~·;'e are getting up; I think: on the St. Pierre Bo.nks are ,\·e not nov.'. The JPS Y.Y:J.S coming Hest alonr:, the Sout!n.:est Coast into the C:ulf. 4TV:-\ is 15,000, 1•\'N is 3,500, 4\'SH Is 7,000 and then there are three other areas, 2 x .l

Feb!"uary 8, 1977 Tape 96 IB-3 c!R. }:OBE!'.TS: 4,000; 5,000 and 20,000. So in other words that 160,000 tons is possibly - I have not added them up here, Sir - half the total allowable catch within the 200-mile limit this year. And Canada 1 s 70,000 ton allocatj.on is by far and away the largest allocation Hithin that. The other allocations in

Fcbru:Jry 8, 1977 Taoe :~o. 97 N~ - 1 ~11\. ROllERTS: that bi~ area, the 2J 3KL area, Canada - 70,000, Cuba - 1,810, Denmark- 1,690, France - 5,630, the Federal Republic of Germanv - 300, the German Democratic Renuhlic - none, Iceland - none, Italy - none, Japan none, ~lor"ay - 800, Poland 850, Portup,al - 5,950, Spain - No, Portugal, I am sorry - Norway- 1,610, Poland- 7,430, Portugal- 21,100, Snain 16,270, the Soviet Union - 18,880, the United Kingdom- 1,330, the Americans - none, others - 1,200.

So~you know,the 70,000 ton allocation that Canada retains out of that 160,000 tons is larger than any other nation and it is just about half the total.

And it is interesting, Sir, when ~<e talk ahout stocks and we talk about quotas, very often we do not realize just what is involved. >fuat I just read are the allocations that have been made this year for all of the cod stocks,2nd they are here for all the other snecies of course in the entire 200 mile limit area, beginning bet~<een the Coast of Greenland and ~!orthern Labrador and coming right down around to where our 200 mile limit comes up against YJhat will be shortly the American 200 mile limit.

Now, Sir, as I ~<as saying,the catching effort is at the heart of fisheries policy. l.Je have control. of the stocks no<·? and what use tve make of them remains to be seen. We hone it is a wise use. He try to make it wise but we have control of the stocks. The question nm>' is "'hat are we going to do to make sure ~-.re can catch the fish. There may be areuments over ho"tv much fish should be caught, that hon. gentlemen 1I knm·J~will he interested to knm..., t~at that 160,000 tons ·is abottt one-auarter nlJor.v.1.hle cntch in t!1at s i f•.n i r i e :-·:. n t ~ -.·. ll(L area. ') '-' r· \,... ."!.)

February il, 1077 Tnpe No. 97 ~·R. ROllF~:rs: ':ell the minister tells me it is 180 next year. I have no ivay to kno~v. I mean I de not have access to that sort of knowledge, l-n1at I want to know is what plans the government have to fit our fishermen to take that fish. Because, Sir, it seems to me that the answer to th~t question has in it the ans«er to the «hole policy on the joint venture idea 1and has in it the whole ans>;er to the future of the fishery, particularly the Northeast Coast fishery.

And this is the big fishery in employment terms, the inshore fishery, the deep sea fishery, the fishery which begins essentially here at St. John's. I suppose «e could go to'Catalina really, a year round plant, thanks to the Smalh10od Administration providing the ships that vent in there. ~. BRETT: I beg your pardon. ~R. ROBERTS: The gentleman from Trinity ~orth may beg all he «ants~but I can assure him,and the records 1·lill support me, that the Smallwood Administration arranged with Fishery Products the finance arrangements to allow the three extra trawlers to go in. MR.

BRETT: Into Catalina. '!R, ROBERTS: Into Catalina, yes of course 1Ve did. )ffi. BRETT: The fir~t ship, what about the other four? ~. ROBERTS: Those who go - the uioneers are the ones who count. The plant had to be shmm to be economical and to shov it could work year round. ~. BRET7: Poppycock. MR. ROBERTS: But, Mr. Speaker, the fact remains that beginning at Catalina we get into the year round plants, cominr, around r;oing- up to Port nux B~sques. I) \.) '\ J.., • ' 11

February 8, 1977 Tape no. 97 NM- 3 '!R. Ri1BF.RTS: Hell sure it does, yes. Sure it does, yes. Yes. Of course they can. Of course they can. He will come to that in due course. I am quite hapny to debate anytime we wish the government's record on Lab-Linerboard. He can talk about that. He can talk about fishery gear scandals,too. You know and the minister's record in Rural Development. He can talk about a lot of things if the minister wants. Nm; let me come back to the fishery, Mr. Speaker. Let me come back to the fishery.

Because the year round fishery is very important,but so is the inshore fishery and this stock • is not only of value to the offshore fishery but it is of - not just of value to the inshore fishery, it is the survival of the inshore fishery. And I want to know from the minister what plans he has to fit our fishermen to get those stocks. I do not 1-1ant him to blame Ottawa. As I said yesterday, the minister served in Ottawa for six or seven years as a Hember of Parliament and he came back here allegedly because he could do nothing in Ottawa and now that he gets here he has a tendencv to blame everything on Ottawa.

Hell that is the reason ~;hy, you knmv, he gets not·7here, or gets so little done. Let him be a little more positive, a little more forthcominr: and let him tell us exactly ~;hat they pronase to do with resrect to the catching effort. Ho~; are

fehruary 8,1977 Tape 'lR All-1 ~fR. ROnE~TS: tve are going to get more lonp.liners, more inshore boats, because the inshore boat still has 1 and the minister I think, 1-lill admit this, a verv real future. The longliner is important but it is not the only ans~Ver. l·:hat are ~Ve going to do as well to replace our tra~Vler fleet and to acquire the trawler capacitv that is necessary to catch whatever ~Ve should catch?

Furthermore I t>•ould like to hear tiJe ministe:;-, Sir, ~Vhile tve are on this subject of taking the fish stocks of tiJe e<orth East Coast, I tvould like to have him say specifically tvhat he thinks tve can take from the allocations. The seventy thousand tons that tve have he en alloted up in that area, the Hamilton Banks Fishery, ' that great mother stock , the nursery of all our fishery, what does he • think <ve should take , tve can take? Scientists say «e can take seventy thousand. Fiftv thousand has been allocated to the inshore fishery on a more or less arbitrary basis.

I believe it is related to the amount that has been caught the last fe•• years. But it: is purely arbitrary I think >7e could increase the inshore fishery very significantly,, and I \Vould like to hear·the minister tell us «hat he thinks «e can take and should take from that stock. filld the question is of great importance, Sir, and great urgency. t\Th.ile v1e are on joint ventures, Sir, or grow·ing out of tvhat I said about the need to increase the catching capacitv, could the minister tell us exactly tvhere this government stands on joint ventures ?

Because every time a question is asked in hhe !louse or a statement is made or the Premier makes a sneech- I do not think the minister has made a speech on it. I have not come across it or have not heard of it if he has -every time this aaooens tve get another different slant on it. So will the minister quite categorical tell us where tve stand, Hhnt he proposes. I understnnd that the minister and the Premier have at one stage asked Ottava to approve oroposals for tt·rentv thousand tons. Fell the m:inister sA.vs no and I must accept ~1·i s ,,1 ord.

Bnt my sources u!:'c ;ust .:"!S acc'...tratc l"~ec;:tuse they Here nt the meeting. T '\V<l.S not at 2" ,, '' ,')

February 8,1977 Tape 9il AH-2 HR. Ronr:RTS: the meeting. Hell,the miniscer Has but the people l<ho told me this were 1 and all I want is the minister to stand 1-'hen his turn comes and to do something he has not done: To state categorically exactly 1-'hat is proposed. Hr. Speaker, I also would like the government to tell us Hhere and ho"' long they think any joint venture should last. Are we going for a one year period? Are we going for a longer period? >fuat are 1-'e going to do to make sure l<e get the maximum returns from it? Just where do 1ve stand? I could list question after question.

The significant paint though is where- this government has given us next to no information on Hhat could be one of the either most promi~ing, there are those Fho h•elieve that, I am not one of them) or one of the most threatening, "vhich I think is the cawp I am co::iiug into, developments ever to. affect our fisherJ. After a long, long time the idea that Canada should take control of her stocks out to the 200 mile limit has been accepted and made law 1 and oolicv has now founded on.

Here l;·te are into it, into this ne':v era and what are v1e talking of? }fore than anything else we are talking of asking the people from outside Canada to come in and catch our fish. Hr. Speaker, I very much hope the government 1.rill deal with that and the minister will give us a full explanation. There are two or maybe three, at least t<m motions on the Elrder Paper, private members motions >one of lvhich should be called fairly early because it is No.2, fue gentleman from LaPoile. P.e taT:hs a position or suggests a position. Hine is further dot.;n. It takes a different position.

I 1-'ould suggest ~Ve get all the facts before we tal'e a position for or against the joint ventures. But I must say the more : 'lear about them, the less I like. And I think I reflect the : et\YS of mv colleagues. ''i\.. CARTF.R: I do not want to interrupt the hon. member. HR. ROBERTS: l<ell then do not. Mr. Speaker , if the hon gentleman docs not t·mnt to interrupt me , let him not interrupt me. ~tR. CAP-.'TTR: Ohvj ousl v, ''r. Speaker -

l'ehruarv 8,1"77. All-3 ~fR. I~OnERTS: Hr. Snenker, I have the right to speak, suhj ect to the rules of the l!ouse. "R. CART!':R: You "ant to know the facts. ~-~r,_. ROUr.;;.t8: Hr. Sneaker, j_f the hon. !'entlem;m 1-1ants to mal·.e a speech then let him make a sneech. He stood up earlier to ask a question , he said. And all he did •ms to get off a three or four r.~inu!!e speech, >lhich made more sense than many of the ministets speeches. I am desperately anxious to know the facts. Tee minister, Hr.

Speaker, the minister has had months , he has had months and trips to Germany and ever)"·•here else to work out some facts and to make them public. He has not ma!le them public. Indeed one Hould almost think that he has been ordered into silence by the Premier. And nm; he wants to interrupt the one chance I get. '

February 8, 1977 Tape no. 99 Page l - mw Hr. Roberts. So I say that the minister should make a statement. If he wants to make it as a ministerial statement, let him. If he wants to speak in the debate, let him; but let him not attempt in-guise of asking a question to interrupt the few minutes at my disposal. Now, Hr. Speaker, I would like to turn briefly, because that is all it really requires, to deal with the hon. gentleman from Trinity North (Hr. Brett), who earlier today made a ministerial statement, and in my view abused the privilege, because he knew that he could not be challenged on debate.

He knows you cannot debate a ministerial statement. It is improper, and it is against the rules. But he made a statement, significantly not tabling a copy of it. HR. BRETT: I did table a copy of it. MR. ROEERTS: Well, the minister indicates that he did table a copy. I apologize to him. All I will say is that it has gotten no further than the table of the House, because the pages for one reason or another have not brought it any further than the table of the House.

Indeed, perhaps, the gentleman who is at the table, if there is a conv of the statement, could let me have a copy of it, or if the minister had one, because I wish to refer to some points the minister made, and I would just as soon quote him accurately if I am to quote him at all. Hr. Speaker, the thrust of the ministerrs statement dealt, of course, \vith the government's prograrrnne ~or part of the government's $2 million programrae~ the Band Aid. And I want to refer specifically to one or two statements the minister made, and then r,.,;e can go on from there. ~ow I am perplexed by ti1e rninister's statistics.

T~:.e raini~tcr said on p~tge J o[ i1is state::~e:1t that\\in U!2cc!r.bc:r l~J;l Lcfore tl:e present .1C:~du.L:-;trativn came to pm ... ·t..:r - there were tJ ,~OG 2 ~l I

February 8, 1977 Tape no. 99 Page 2 - mw ~lr. Roberts. able-bodied social assistance cases on our payroll. However, in the intervening five years we have practically cut this caseload in half.

For example, in December,1976 there were only 5,196 able-bodied social assistance cases on the payroll." And t.hen he goes on, "These are facts which cannot be refuted." Now I do not pretend to refute the minister on facts <:hich he says cannot be refuted, but he says, "In December,1976 there were only 5,196 able-bodied social assistance cases." His office refused to reveal the figures to our staff when we called, and yet the - I am going to make sure that I have apples and apples here - government's o~~ statistics, as put out- the date is actually January 21, 1977 -the flash sheet by the Central Statistical Services Planning and Priorities Secretariat 1 Executive Council show that the number of people- and it is for November, it is the last month made public.- heads of families and/or single persons in receipt of short-term basic social assistance were 10,441, which is an increase of 14.7 per cent from the number, the same category receiving assistance in the same month the year before.

And over the year we have had an increase of 10 per cent from January to November inclusive. Now I do not have the December figures, because the minister's officials declined to release them to the press. The word I got was to the press or to the House of Assembly.

But I am unable to understand why in November,l976 we had 10,441 people, heads of familes and/or single persons - this might be 30,000 or 40,000 or 50,000 people but we are talking units, and a unit is a head of a family or a single person in receipt of short-term basic social assistance - how it can be 10,441 in November,1976 and only 5,196 in December,1976. And I am assuming that able-bodied social assistance cases are essentially the same as heads of families and/or single persons in receipt of short-tcr;n basic

February 8, 1977 Tape no. 99 Page 3 - mw ~·!r. Roberts. social assistance. ~ow if the minister would like to speak to that, I would gladly yield only for a second on the understanding that I can resume my remarks. But I am genuinely perplexed at that, Sir. MR. SPZAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. Minister of Social Services. HR. BRETT: If the hon. member would yield, Mr. Speaker, yes, I can explain that very clearly. First of all there ••as a decrease in the month of De