Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY..SEVENTH GENERAL ASS.EMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MARCH 30, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Numb er 40

March 30, 1976 The Rouse met at 2:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Tape 1508 PK - 1 Order, please! PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES MR. W. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition. MR. SPRAKER: (DR. COLLINS): Reverting to petitions. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the snowmobile operators in the communities of Norman's Cove and Long Cove and Chapel Arm. There are thirty-eight signatures on this petition. The prayer, of course, of the petition is they are opposing the proposed snowmobile regulations.

Many people,! believe,thought that the proposed regulations were actual regulations. This was the opinion of many people when the proposed regulations came out. I would like to commend the Minister of Tourism on the approach that he is taking to these regulations. For once)at least,the public are given an opportunity to have some input into drawing up of regulations.

As I commend the ~llnister of Tourism, I hope of course that these suggestions and the objections that are drawn by many of these petitions that have been presented earlier, and now today, that these objections will be listened to, and will be part of the actual snowmobile regulations when they are formulated. So, Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of this petition. I ask that this petition be referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. J. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of the petition as submitted by the hon. member on behalf of the communities concerned. And like him,I, in fact, although it has not been said too often,that I frankly appreciate the type of White Paper approach on something like this, because while it is all too often, as had happened in federal matters from time to time,confused with actual legislation 4046

March 30, 1976 Tape 1508 PK - 2 Mr. Nolan: or intended legislation, in fact the White Paper does outline various avenues, outline .. what are possibilities, and only possibilities I would suggest, and it does generate discussion 1•hich is a good and heal thy thing. And I would think also that perhaps as a result of these petitions and briefs and representations and committees that have met with the minister or his officials in the last few months that perhaps he too may have benefited, I know I have from talking to some people,i~ their wisdom and in experience in the use of snowmobiles.

We certainly support the prayer of the petition of the hon. member. And I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, if it is permissible if the minister,who may very well also want to support the petition, might tell if and when we will have legislation coming up soon on this matter? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS}: Are there any further petitions? The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 303 citizens of the community of Heart's Content, in Trinity-Bay de Verde.

Sir, the petition is calling for government assistance for a senior citizens' home in that particular community. Now, Sir, I have been in contact with the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation because no former brief, I believe, has been presented to the government yet. So this may be a cart-before-the-horse type of a situation. But I have been talking to the minister and I will have further consultation with him on this particular subject.

But, Sir, in speaking in support of the petition I would like to point out that there is in Heart's Content at the present time a retired citizen's club and it was formed last October and it has a thirteen board of directors, chaired by the Reverend K.L. Goldsworthy, and it consists of the Mayor of Heart's Content, the welfare officer and the bank manager,amongst other people. The club is a very active one, Sir, in spite of the fact that it does not have any physical facilities to operate out of at the present time.

The proof of its activity is that it has received a New HOrizon's grant, and at the present time it is in the process of 4 ()A~ -.J •• "" I

March 30, 1976 Tape 1508 PK - 3 Mr. F. Rowe: publishit:g a book called The History of Heax-t 's Content, and they hope to realize a profit in e~cess of $5,000 from that particular publication . So this is proof of the attempt and the desire of this particular club to generate its own money. The retired citize ns' club is now in the process of becomb1g incorporated. After incorpo rat ion a formal proposal or brief will be forwarded to the gov~rnment on the proposed senior citizens' home.

I might also add, Sir , that the club is in the process of acquiring a piece of land with a seaside front or back, whatever you want to call it . These three things certainly indicat e the sertousness and the determination and the willingn ess of the Board of Directors and the member s of this senior citizens' club to get something of value for their comrnunity. Now, Sir, the type senior citizenrr club that they envisage is 311 inter-faith type of home- not club,I am sorry, home, an inter-fa ith 4048

March 30, 1976 Tape 1509 IB-1 HR. F. ROWE: type of home to accommodate approximately thirty citizens, to take care of two categories of people; those elderly citizens who are healthy, but who are living alone or without guardians because their spouse has died or their family has moved away, and also these elderly people who are not in good health and need bed care.

Sir, I think this is probably the type of institution that the government should be ]ookfng at throughout the Province instead of the great, large institutions where you take the people away from their homes in their twilight years an~ send them to a strange community and a strange environment js probably one of the cruelest things that we could do hmvever well intentioned. So what is envisaged here is a small senior citizens home which probably could serve as a model for other communities in Newfoundland, small and local rather than large,encompassing a great area.

Sir, I hope the minister will give this his every support, and in closing, Sir, I simply ask that this petition be plac .ed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. ~ m. SPENCER: The hon. House Leader. HR. lffiLLS: ~'r. Speaker, the hon. member has spoken to me about the petition. It is the first formal notification we have received that people in that area are interested in such a home. l~en the application is made, Hr. Speaker, it will be given every consideration. MP. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgee-Bay ~'Espoir. !--!R. SH1MONS: }~r.

Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by my colleague from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe). The petitioners from Hear~s Content, the 300-plus petitioners have set forth a concern which is shared by a number of other communities around the Province. I would first of all like to support the petition insofar as it sets the forth the problem affecting the Hearts Content area. I would like to say to the minister that perhaps the time has come - indeed it may have already been dealt with at the departmental level, 4049

}!arch 30, 1976 Tape 1509 }iR. SIMMONS: there may be some policy forthcoming on it - but I strongly feel that the time has come for the kind of home that my colleague from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) has described. IB-2 I know that the minister would have received by now representation from the town of Burgeo on the very same subject ,and Heart's Content and Burgeo are but two or a number of places where this kind of home could aerve a very real purpose.

I just want to reiterate the point in particular which my colleague made about the particular desirability of a small home serving an immediate local area. In the latter years of one's life I thjnk it is important that even if you are robbeQ of the opportunity of being around immediate relatives by reason of - for whatever reason - because the relatives happened to have moved out of the area,or happened to have predeceased you or whatever the case, it is still important that some of the familar surroundings of our lifetime be a part of your environment.

It is nothing short of cruel what we have done in some respects to pull people out of their environment after fifty or sixty or seventy or seventy-five years and at a time when they need the assurance of familar surroundings, to pick tbem up and put them into a large home in an urban setting away from familar faces and away from familar scenes, I, with these comments, Hr.

Speaker, would just like to reiterate and say how pleased I am to support the prayer of the petition and how much I anticipate the occasion on which the minister will come into this House and give us notice that that kind of programme is not only actively being considered but that he indeed and his officials have a proposal to cater to the need which is so well stated in the petition from Hearts Content. 'lR. SPEAKER: 'lR. NEARY: The hon. member for LaPoile. Hr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition presented by the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Hr. F.

Uowe) on behalf of his consti.tuents in the co:r:mtunity and surrounding area of Heart's Content. I would like to point out to the House, Sir, that the programme referred to by the last speaker has already been 4050

t1;n:ch 30, 1976 Tape 1509 lE-3 '11' . NRARY: implemented. It 1~as e programme that was started when I was l'':i.nister of Social Services end Rehabili tation . The former Premier of this rrovir.ce sent me once to England to look at senior citizens' homes an~ when I ca~e back the rovern~nt of the ~ay a~opterl a programme of huildi ng smaller type homes in various parts of Newfoundla nd . I would think now, ~r. Speaker, that we have reached the stage where we have an abundance of homes for ambulatory people.

Whl\t we really need now,and I think ~<"hat my hon . former colleague hinted at in his support of the petition, what is really need ed in this P rovince, Sir - and I can say this after careful research when I ~<'aS minister of that departmen t in consultation with my colleague of the day, the Leader of the Opposition who was then ~in ister of l!calth - the most desperate need 40 51

''Rrc" 31'1, 1°7(,. !!1<. 'lEARY: 'l'ane 1511'1 RP - 1 in this T'rovincr at thP moment, Sir, is for nursinp.; carP hom<'s. He hRvc :m e~1,,mc1nnce of l1omes fnr amhule~tory pati .ents. l'ut we neec1 nursing c:nre 'wmes, Sir, to tilke ce~re of those peonle, some t,rho are occunving hospital heds nt the present time, some ~~r10 are in their ovm homes, "ut it i'l R rlesnrrate nec>c1, Sir. That is why T can unrlerstand the feelings of the peoole on the ',lest Coast in connection with the 1-'Pstern ''emoria1 Jlospita1. Rnt there :Is lvhere the ne.erl is, '-'r. Speaker.

T uould like to see the pcwernment st11te their. nlans, their intentions of Hhat they are going to clo ahout providinp.; hacllv needecl nursing care "nme>s in this Provi nee, hecaUf;e J thin1: myself now that "e shoulrl sort of t."'kc R lonl• :'It the situation in relntion to huilc1inR senior citb:en's homes. T stRrtcc! the programme. The present p;overnment have carried it rm. T thin!·_ my rlPpctrtment, thr government of the c1Ry, 1vns responsible for hu1.1r1ing <~ 11ome in r::orner Hrook, in r.rand falls, in r.ander. l,le got the nnP on the 1 aunchinp. narl ' in. r:ranrl Tlanl· anc1 in Lewisnorte.

T thinl· tl1c> prPsent f':OVernment are in tl1e rrocess of buiJ din?,: on" i -n Stephenvi Jl,e nnd in Springcale I beUeve there is one. Sir, if I ''ere the p.overnment I Hould take a p.oon hard look noN nt tl-te nE'"!c1. T h:1ve a feelin?. th<~t if they no a ]i.ttle hit of researcl1, i ust r.o dmm anrl check the statistics in the department, thev vi] 1 eli scnver that thr> nePrl fnr nursin?: care homes :in this Province at the presr.nt time i.R ahsolutely rlesperate. ~'1'. SPE.I\KER(nr. r:ollins): The l1on. ~linister of Provincial Affairs and rnvironment. ' ' R . A. '"'rRPl'Y: 11-r.

Spf'al:P.r, if T may, perh'lpS to update tl1e cliscussion tltnt is tald .nr. p1 ncf'. There lms :1 spr>rial cnmm-1 ttee set up dur-tnr: the ~nst year consisting of the ~linisters of the nepartment of Rehabilitation. l'r>nl th a nil Social Services. ThP.re 4J an up- to-c1ate report, J c1o not 1 --nm~ .,_.~1nt: action is hc>:i.n~ ta!:en at the present mnment, hut it shm·m the numhcr n f ,,,.,.-Js th;et nrP TleP.rll"rl for th:f s type of thinr:.

Tl'"" have mar1e a cornpletC' invcntorv of :1nspita1 J->ens,anrl separated in different areas of the Province. ,:o fn llo•-Jing np the niscussion, Sir, I thin1· it is a vf'.rv, verv important 4052

!~arcl-J 3'1, l 0 7r•, '!R, "1!HPFY: Tape lSFl P.JT - z matter. I support t!1e conceT't of these homes and particularly the nursinp; l1omes. I believe that this ,and I knoH that this report is available somewhere ~ut I am not quite sure since I got out of Social Services i ust tvhat action is heinr; taken on this report. llut I am st1re, pe.r11aps the !1i:-tister of Health may not l:le because he is new in the portfolio too, but I am sure that report is there. ~'r. P..eg !1oore nctually was the one I think headed it up in the Department of Pehahilitation. /\ll statistics are Rvailable on this type of tl-,:i,np,.

I am sure that government is in the nrocess of fnllm~ing out some of the recommendations th:1t did take nlace following up on this particular matter . 'rR. SPJ' 1\KllP.: l;ay d'Espoir. 1-'P.. P. SP'H0~TS: . "my furt'1er petitions? The hon. member for P.un>,eo- ''r. Speaker, 1 Hnuld like to present a petition on hel1al f of sane residents of Tlamea in my district, thirty-three residents altoget 11er. Tfte pra~rer of the petition relates to a matter tvhich tvas hcfore this llouse before in at least one petition presented,! believe, hy the gentlern;~n from LaPoiJ.e.

It has to do trlth the kinds of thi.nr,s being seen on television these days. I am aware that this is a federRJ matter, but the pet:O.tion hRving been addressed to me and to t:1e House, I tl-Jtnk it my duty to hring it to the attention of the House and to tal,Je the petition.

In doing soT would like on hehalf of tr.e thirty­ three persons at 'i'amea ~rho signed this petition, I would lil•e to reiterate their concern insofar as the scenes of violence on T.V. are concerned, th~ scPnes involving rlrinkinp. and the consumption of alcoholic beverages ;mrl the serving of those beverages. '{y petitioners express real concern nn this matter and, l"'r. Speaker, with good reason. The Minister of .Tustice m.~y not at all find the matter of interest. MJ? • HI r.KMAN : r~ • SI!11'10NS ; Hhat are ycu talking about? I am talking about a petition, Mr.

Speaker, from Ramea. shouln start again for the minister. ~W. C:ROS!Hl': 'IT'-. sn'1'~nNs: Turn off the set. ,\h! The !"':inister of Mines and fnerp.;y, his solution is to 4053

____ ::J !la-rch 3n, 107£'. t>~. SUt'-!ONS: T11pe 15)0 RH - 3 turn off the set. 't'hat is one way to abdicate vour -responsibility as a govcrnmen t. H-e. Speaker, what we have here is - HR. CROSBIE: What we nee~ here is less of you. HR. SIMl~ONS: :-c. Speaker, H the minister would listen he might learn sometlrl ng. t am not sure of that statemen t but I am willing to give it a try, ~rr. Speaker . l am willin~ to wait and see. He might learn yet. It is difficult for someone who knows everythinp. to learn . Tnere may be - J1L CROSBIE: ~m. SPNO~S : It is a federal matter. I have already said, Hr.

Speaker, I have said for the minister to hea-r _yR. DOODY: Do not waste the tjme of the Rouse. " R. SP'l-!ONS: Ah,~a! I have already said, Mr. Speaker, it is a federal matter. I am shout to make a suggestion which may be of some interest to us h ere in this House. If they do not want to hear the sugp.estion they can turn off their set s riv,ht now. 4054

; March 30, 1976 Tape no. 1511 Page l - mw MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, p~ease. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, it is a serious situation and it is one that we, as the elected representatives in this Province ought to be taking some initiatives on. I am aware we can categorize neatly these days and say that is federal,and that is provincial and that kind of thing, and we tend to compartmentalize as though we can lolk away and solve it by saying it is somebody else's problem. It is our problem It is your problem, Mr. Speaker, and it is my problem.

And if these influences on television are having an adverse effect, which I personally believe they are, and which my petitioners believe, well then the onus is on us as elected representatives to ask ourselves what can we do? If we cannot do anything that is another question. Well let us not decide before we ask, Mr. Speaker, let us not decide beforehand that we cannot do anything. The influence, Mr. Speaker, of these scenes that we have referred to is detrimental. It is negative, it is adverse.

A youngster today,I am told from a study that was conducted in the last four or five or six months, the average youngster in North America spends six to seven hours a day watching television - six to seven hours a day. I am told that t bhe study also indicated - MR. DOODY: Six to seven hours a day? MR. SIM}IDNS: Six to seven hours a day. This was a survey done- I should have qualified by saying urban North America - it was done in a number of cities in the States. I do not know whether Canada was involved. I do not think it was. MR. NEARY: Judy LaMarsh is doing one in Ontario right now. MR.

SIMMONS: Is that right? MR. CROSBii: The Simmons and Judy show. MR. SrMMD ~ S: Ah, Mr. Speaker, the callousness, Mr. Speaker, of this moment,that the Minister of Energy himself over there having no more heart but to dismiss this as being no problem. This is a problem,I say to him. He may not understand it. MR. CROSBIE: It is a problem for the home. 4o55

March 30, 1976 Tape no. 1511 Page 2- mw MR. SIMMONS: Oh, slough it off, slough it off on someone else, eh? Sure, of course. He does not want to hear about it. If it is not having to do with cutback, Scrooge-fashion to cut back financially, he does not want to hear about it. All he wants is gloom and doom, !o1r. Speaker. MR. CROSBIE: It is far wors~ - MR. SIMMONS: No suggestion that we might be able to do something to improve our social lot!. He does not want to hear that. He does not want to hear that. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please!

In the presenting of petitions it is incumbent on both sides of the House not to enter into a debate. The hon. member for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir. MR.. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That same study which was conducted in several cities in the United States, Mr. Speaker, also showed that the time spent watching television is the largest time component in the twenty-four day for children - I am sorry, the second largest time component for children and for non-working adults. Next to sleep, Mr. Speaker, this was the second largest time component in the person's day, the child and the non-working adult. Mr.

Speaker, I repeat for the Minister of Transportation and Communications, in his capacity as Minister of Transportation and Communications mind you - he is hearing this now - MR. MORGAN: What is the prayer of the petition? MR. SIMMONS: I told h~ a moment ago that the prayer of the petition has to do with the showing of scenes. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I shall take my direction from Mr. Speaker, and I would hope also, Mr. Speaker, that I shall have the same protection from the Chair that I help accord these gentlemen over there, namely, to be heard in silence. And I do not think, Mr.

Speaker , it is neces~ary in my presenting what is a very serious subject to have 405;

March 30, 1976 Tape no. 1511 Page Ur. Simmons. this kind of harassment and interruption particularly from the member from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan). SOME HON. MEMB~RS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please! 3- mw The hon. member is certainly within his rights to request that he be heard in silence. J>OME RON. }!EMBERS: Hear, near! MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. member for Burgeo- Bay d 1Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: I do not expect them to want to hear it, Mr. Speaker, If it is not about cutbacks or doom and gloom, they would not be interested in it. That is their language.

But I am concerned about the larger sphere here which is represented in part by this petition. Now it is a federal issue, Mr. Speaker, but I believe we, as the elected representatives, ought to be concerned. It has social implications. It has cultural implications. It has educational implications. Education is clearly a provincial responsibility. Are we going to skate away from it because it is education that happens not to take place in the confines of a school classroom? It is education. Indeed studies also show that television right now is much more effettive than the formal education process.in some respects.

MR. WELLS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE~R (Dr. Collins): A point of order - the hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member is now engaging into debate. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the bon member has outlined what the petition is all about. If he will table it, we will give it every consideration. We will do everything we can as a government for it,whatever is necessary, but it is against the rules, and there is no necessity for debate on it at this stage. 4057

March 30, 1976 Tape No. 1512 NM- 1 MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order; I submit, Sir, simply that there is no point of order involved here at all. My colleague has not been debating but simply trying to state the prayer of the petition .and I further submit, Sir, that he would probably be in his seat now if he was not continually being harrassed by members opposite and any debate that we have heard in this House on this petition has come from government backbenehers and ministers. HR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! r-<R. ROWE: So, Sir, I submit there is no point of order. t-fR. TtOBERTS: Hear! Hear! MR.

SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! In presenting a petition the hon. ·member is limited to five minutes and I would suggest that the House give him his time to present his petition and complete his comments. The bon. member. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now, Hr. Speaker, I do not require leave. I can present a petition in five minutes, if I am accorded the privilege that other members expect of this House, the privilege of being heard in silence, I would have long since have been sat down,as my colleague from Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) has so well said. This petition, Mr.

Speaker, this issue which forms a part of this petition is one that does have educational implications for us and we have responsibilitie!' in that area, and sure t~e can require leave. I can present a petition in five minutes, if I am I want.to suggest in concluding, Mr.

Speaker, and in supporting this petition that perhaps we ought to think,and I say particularly to the minister or ministers responsible, and I include in that the rfinister of Education because I think he has some responsibility here, perhaps the Minister of Social Services, perhaps other ministers, I do not know, that is for them to think about. But I suggest that perhaps the time has come - this is getting out of hand in terms of what is going on in television, what is being shown people of all ages - and perhaps the time has come for the Province to make some representation 4058

March 30, 1976 Tape No. 1512 NM - 2 }~. SI~NS: to Ottawa, to have an official say. I know the terms of reference in the BNA Act and all that kind of thing but perhaps it might be worth our '1>7hile as a people to say, "Look, we are concerned on behalf of a half million Ne~~foundlanders" and to make some representation to Ottawa on their particular behalf, on behalf of this particular sub.:)ect. I suggest that strongly, Mr. Speaker, and in concluding I endorse heartily the prayer of the petition and ask that it he tabled and referred to the appropriate department. SOME HON. MEMBERS! HP.ar: Hear: MR. SPF.&~~ (DTI.

COLLINS): Any further petitions? ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for LaPoile. 'IR. NEARY: Mr. 'lpeaker, I would like to direct a question to the 'Minister of HeAlth, Sir, Would the }!inister of Health indicate to the House why the recommendations of the arbitration board in connection with an arbitration proceeding at the Grace Hospital and one other arbitration proceeding that took place in connection with double time for nurses for call back, why that recommendation cannot be implemented for nurses at the General Hospital? Is there any reason '~hy it could not be done? ~IR.

SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Hinister of Health. riR. COLLI. S: l-lr. Speaker, I certainly do not want to dodge the question but I would presume the question should be possibly addressed to my colleague, the President of Treasury Board, and I am not sure that he can deal with it because the hospital board is involved. 1'11. NEARY: Hell, l~r. Speaker, could I redirect the question to the President of the Treasury B0ard, does he know any reason why it could not be implemented, why should they be forced to go to arbitration again? H"R. SPEAKEF (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: Well these are matters that have been decided by arbitration boards. Now it is certainly not my right or prerogative 4059

!arch 30, 1976 Tape No. 1512 NM- 3 r-nt. DOODY: as the President of Treasury Board to (

a) tell the hospital boards what to do, or (

b) above all tell the arbitration boards what to do when they look to the grievance procedures. The hospital!;! are handling this situation themselves and I think they are doing them rather well. I think it would be most unfortunate and most inopportune to drag . this thing in here now and make some judgements on situations which we are not sufficiently familiar to make judgement -s on. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker; has the minister had any consultation with the members of the General Hospital Corporation in connection with this matter? MR.

DOODY: The officials of Treasury Board and of Health have had consultation, Sir, yes. MR. SPEmR (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Baie Verte- White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Health. Now that the minister has had an opportunity to meet with medical officials and officials of the Medical Association could he t .ell the House when he expects to proceed with the announced programme of cutbacks in 200 hospital beds2 MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Health. 4060

llarch 30, 1976 Tape 1513 IB-1 MR . B. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we had a very good meeting with the Hospital Association and the Medical Association yesterday afternoon, as I indicated in a release afterwards which was agreed to by all parties attending the meeting. l'e discussed the issue. I must say that both parties were interested in co-operating with us to the extent that they can. The purpose of the meeting yesterday was to appraise all of the groups­ or the two groups on what we are trying to accomplish.

It was agreed also then that myself,where possible,and certainly the officials of my department,would be meeting with the various hospitals individually to try and develop criteria, etc. and we will be coming back to the parent bodies at some future date, in the near future,! would say. Other than that I can add nothing. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

I am wondering if the minister could tell us - I believe he commented recently on approaches from farmers regarding insurance and possibly the licensing of vehicles, tractors I am thinking about primarily - what if any progress has he made in any investigations that he might have been involved in since I,and I am sure he,has had numerous requests regarding this matter, one,on the insurance and,two,on even the licensing of a vehicle because in some instances,as I am sure he knows,it is necessary merely for a tractor to cross over even a piece of dirt road.

The only reason it is brought back at night is to attempt to save the equipment from malicious damage, theivery and so on~ I am wondering if the minister could inform the House on, one, m1at approaches he has had on this matter - and I realize in some instances it is a very difficult one - and what if anything they may be in a position to do about? HR. SPEAKER: MR . MORGAN : The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. }fr. Speaker, I have received a number of individual representations from farmers but also some strong representation from 4061

March 30, 1976 Tape 1513 IB-2 MR. MORGAN: my colleague, the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture after his meetings held around the Province with various groups of farmers and organizations. Upon receiving representation from him we had further discussions. The situation is now that the farmer who is not going to use his tractor or farming equipment on the highways,and is going to use it strictly on his private property and his farming property, it is not legal for him, he does not have to even register that piece of equipment. There is no registration required.

If he is going to use the vehicle for sometimes eroasing the road,onee or twice a week or once or twice a month,to go from one part of his farm to the other something of that nature, he can do this by obtaining a plate which will cost him four dollars as permit to do that. If he is going to use his vehicle on the highway or on any part of any road which is under our jurisdiction, on a public road, he has to comply with the regulation which states that he must have third party liability insurance the same as the operator of any other vehicle.

That is if he is going to use his vehicle,for example,like a truck, a farm truck, in trucking materials or equipment of that nature. He must get it registered and he must ha•e third party liability insurance. But if he is only going to use it on his own private property he does not even have to register the vehicle. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I am sure that the minister knows or is aware that in some instances it is not necessary for the owner because the home and the farm and the barns and land is all there in one confined area owned by the owner, but in some instances such as in my district,and perhaps as I know of in the minister's district for that matter, in some cases the land is somewhat spread. It is necessary to cross the road or to go up the road or down the road to reach additional acreages that the farmer may have. I would assume that he has taken all this into consideration with his officials. 4062

!'larch 30, l976 Tape l5l3 IB-3 MR. SPE:ADR~ The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: I would like to direct a question, Sir, to the l'inister of Fisheries. Would the minister tell the House if he has taken any steps to have draggers, especially the draggers that are being operated by the government on an experimental basis, the sixty-five foot mid-water draggers I think they are ca.lled, could the minister tell the Rouse if he has taken any steps to have these draggers diverted to fish plants on the South~est Coast , especially Burnt Island and Rose Blanche,to try and keep these fish plant supplied fish to keep employment at a high level in that area? 4063

'larch 30, 1976. Tape 1514 RH - 1 ~ffi. SPF.AKER (Dr. Collins) : The Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: ~lr. Speaker, as the hon. member is aware we met with the fish plant workers in Rose Rlanche and Burnt Island early in December,! think it was,at ~~hich time we received representation from them with respect to the scarcity of raw material in the plants to provide adequate employment. At that time I promised that we would look into the possibility of arranging for more catching capability to be made available. That is right. Yes. f-IR. NEARY: }!R. CARTER: On March 29 , }!r.

Speaker, we landed our boat, the San Lance ~~hich was a sixty-five foot experimental boat capable of carrying, I believe,around 50,000 pounds of fish. On }farch 2Q it landed 32,000 pounds on Burnt Island. On the 23rd of March it landed 41,000 pounds in llurnt Islancl and on ~~arch 9 some 45 ,000 pounds for a total of 118,000 pounds for the month of March. }!R. NEARY: Hear, hear! }fR. CARTER: He are, }!r. Speaker, interested in landing fish in R.ose Planche hut because of conditions over which the boat skipper had no control he could not land there.

Instructions have ~one out to him that in future that he avail of every possible chance to land whatever fish he can in the Rose Blanche area. Now I might add too, Yr. Speaker, that we are nep,otiating with a large fish plant mm.er in the area with a view to having him acquire a couple of side trawlers. It was no later than last Saturday t met with him in Corner Rrook and discussen the matter. }11\ . NEARY: T .J? }ffi . W. CARTF.R: T. J. Hardv.

Just a day or two ago my Deputy Minister was in contact with the principal of a firm with which that company is affiliated and impressed on h:!.m the need for the acquisition, either by lease or purchasing a couple of boats. We are doing all we can to facilitate the plant in question with respect to increasing its catching capability there. ~!R. NEARY: "ffi • SPEAKER : r.ood stuff, good stuff. Hear, hear! The han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. 4064

Tape 1514 RR - 2 MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing could I ask the House Leader or possibly the Minister of Justice what the p,overnment is intending to do with respect to people tvho live in ~raste disposal areas but tvho worJ, in other incorporated areas who are subjected to double taxation? They h;pre to pay a tmste disrosal tax and also a tax to the incorporated area in which they work. The ~Unister of 'Municipal Affairs had intenderi to look into it.

T was wondering if the government have done anythin~ ahout it or w~1ether they plan to introduce any legislation concerning this? I!R. SPEAKER: llON. R. HYLJ.S: 'l'he Minister tvithout Portfolio. The han. minister is looking into it as the member says. If the member vlill put the question on the Order Paper for him he will receive an ans'Ver when the minister is ready. t<R. SPF..~KER: The hon. member for J1urgeo-Bay d'F.spoir. HR. R. SU'll'tONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Hinister of l'isheries, not like the one he had a moment ago. It is not one that he asl<-er1 me to ask hi:n.

It is one that I have fresh off my own mind. nut I would like to know the answer nevertheless. I wonder would the minister indicate to me, and I would not have to ask the question had he made his statement yesterday in the House instead of out of the !louse, !"lut I did catch a few of his Hords last night about the fact that there 1-1as not money this year needed in the budget because of the ~ear 11P.plac~ment I'ro~ramme was completed or vmrds to that effect. I ~Jill not quote him incorrectly.

But that was the essence,! believe, that there were les~er amounts because of the marine centres had been completed and the Gear Replacement Programme and so on. Can I, }fr. Speaker, do I understand from his statements that there is to be no Gear ~eplacement Programme this year? ~. rAPTER: Or~er Paper. ~1'. SPEAKE!!: (nr. Gall j_ns) The han. member for LaPoiJ e. YP. NEAT'Y: ~tr. Sreaker, I wouln like to put a question to the - 4065

'la r ch 30, 1 rt76. Tape 1514 __:ffi. snrroNS: We will not be asldnr. you questions much long er. HR. H. C/>.RTER: 1f you had aske d the quest ion properly it would have been answered . ~~ . NEARY: Mr. Speake~, - ~m . CARTER: Le~rn th~ rules of the House. :-!R. SlltMO~S: rol"e over and help me , Halter ! PJI - 3 ~!R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, l would like to direct a question to the ?~inister - ~~ · SPEAKER: Orde r, please ! The hon. membe~ for LaPoi le. l!R . NEAR'i: r.o away , hoy! You ~rould have to Ret up on a pair of stilts if you tal-e on the ~fi.ni. ster of Fisheries . SOMF. liON. ~!EHRF.R S: nea r, hear! MR.

NFARY: "r. Speaker, my question is to the Minis ter of Transportation and Communication, Sir. ~'ould the minister tell the House if he has taken anv ~teps to correct the situation at the motor registration office whereby they tlo not h:tve the manpower to collect parking tickets ? lJhat has the minister done ahout this serious situation? Pell , they made a statement recent~y they did not have the manpower to collect parking tickets. They do not have the manpower at the 4066

March 30, 1976 Tape 1515 PK- 1 Mr. Neary: at the Motor Registration Office, the Motor Vehicle Registration Office to collect parking tickets. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: I will take that question under advisement, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon , Leader of the Opposit~on. MR . ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Public Works, the acting minister,in his capacity .as the minister responsible for renting or purchasing accommodation for the government,or leasing for that matter, Sir.

Could the minister tell us when the government will be entering into a contract with the successful tenderer,whoever that may be,as a result of the tender call which was advertised in the newspapers last year for a large amount of office space for the government. That tender, Your Honour, as the minister will recall was issued following the departure from the Cabinet of the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) who told us at the time that he thought there should be tenders called as we all did. Could the minister tell us,please, when the contract will be awarded? ~m. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon .

Acting Minister of Public Works. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, you know, and I do not mean -an honest answer ' is, I have no idea , That is a Cabinet decision. I can say that I have no idea at this point in time. I really do not. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. MR. SPFAKER (DR. COLLINS): A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Can the minister tell us whether the : oontract will be awarded to the lowest tenderer? MR. SPEAKER: (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Acting Minister of Public Works. MR.

ROUSSEAU: You know, right now as far as I am concerned as Acting Minister of Public Works it is an issue that has been, I guess, in Limbo since tenders have been called. I would assume that it will be called-or I am sorry~given to the lowest tender, you know, I have no reason to believe otherwise. Tenders are normally given to the lowest tenderers or vlse they have to be tabled in this House. ·MR. SIMMONS: Who has told you that, 'Joe'? 4067

March 30, 1976 Tape 1515 PK - 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: I do not know who has told me, you know, I had a question as the Minister of Public Works, I am answering the question as Acting Minister of Public Works. Right now as far as I am concerned, you knqw, the thing is not imminent as far as I know. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. I must say for the benefit of the Rouse, Sir, that none of .these questions are prompted. I do not have to be prompted to ask questions, Sir. MR.

SIMMONS: You will vouch for that,'Walter?' MR. NEARY: Yes, I will vouch for it, MR. SIMMONS: 'Walter'will too. MR. NEARY: inside or outside of the House. Sir, my question is to the Minister of Manpower • AN RON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: I want to know if the minister has received any objections from the Steelworkers in Labrador West in connection with the appointment of the Commissioner of Human Rights to investigate problems concerning several workers in Labrador City? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. E. MAYNARD: No, Mr.

Speakr.r, I have not received any objections. I understand from the news media that there are some objections being 'made but they have not received my office Up to this point in time. }m. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The han. member for Bellevue. MR. W. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier, I have a question for possibly the House Leader. Is government satisfied with the performance of the Ombudsman? And perhaps as he answers that question, perhaps the House Leader can tell us what is ~he framework in which the Ombudsman works?

I am sure there are an awful of Newfoundlanders who do not know what his responsibilities are, and when they can go to the Ombudsman for help? 4068

March 30, 1976 Tape 1515 PK - 3 MR. SIMMONS: Who is the Ombudsman? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The han. House Leader. MR. R. WELLS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, The Ombudsman of course is an officer of the House,or is responsible to the House of Assembly, not to the government as such. I might say that we have every belief that the Ombudsman is carrying out his duties in an exemplary manner. He has his office located here in St. John's, I forget the - MR. DOODY: The Imperial Oil Building. MR. WELLS: - the Imperial Oil Building that is right, and advestisements - MR. DOODY: I have been there three times about my salary. MR.

WELLS: - advertisements were placed when the Obudsman was appointed. And he is there and he has a staff, and of course he is ready and there to receive complaints of whatever sort from members of the public. And I might say to the han. member in due course he will provide a report as he is required to do by the act under which he holds the office, a report to the House of Assembly and then of course we will have an opportunity to see what he has been doing and how many cases he has disposed of. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): A supplementary. MR.

CALLAN: Has any thought been given to widening the framework under which the Ombudsman works? MR. WELLS: Well something like that would always of course be under review. When the Ombudsman presents his report, and when he has been in operation for a couple or three years and we in the House can assess his effectiveness and the effectiveness of the office under the act, then, of course, as with all matters of that sort it is something that can be reviewed. 4069

March 30, 19 76 Tape no. 1516 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. member for Tri.ity- Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Education could bring the House up-to-eate on the institution of a province-wide educational television system? MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I do not have any information about that, a province-wide television - MR. ROWE: A province-wide educational television svstem. MR. HOUSE: No, I will take the question under advisemen~, but I am not aware of anything going on now at the present time. MR.

ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): A supplementary- the hon. member for Trintty - Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Is the minister aware, Sir, that this is a stated P. C. Government policy that such a system would be instituted within the very near future? And this promise was made in 1971. You do not, eh? MR. HOUSE: No. MR. ROWE: Same promises during elections. MR. HOUSE: The same answer would apply. I will take it under advisement and give it tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. member for LaPoile. J:IR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice, Sir, if he has yet received any word from his counterpart in Ottawa, the Minister of Justice, in connection with a request from the minis~er from the Government of this Province to have an investigation made into the San Juan disaster involving the loss of two lives? J:IR.SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, my request was not made to the Minister of Justice in Ottawa. It was made to the minister re,ponsible under the Canada Shipping Act,namely, the hon. Otto Lang, Minister of Transport.

In my written representation to him I urged two things on behalf of government; one,that there be a judicial inquiry into the loss of the

March 30, 19 76 Tape no. 1516 Page 2-mw Mr. Hickman. San Juan, that the terms of reference of that inquiry be sufficiently broad to examine into the loss of two other boats sailing off the East Coast of Newfoundland with the loss of life,and that the terms of reference of the inquiry be sufficiently broad to enable the judge so appointed to inquire into the adequacy or lack of same of search and rescue facilities in the Province of Newfoundland. And the second part was to urge the establishment fortkwith of adequate search and rescue facilities in this Province. MR. NEARY: What is the answer? MR.

HICKMAN: I received a telegram from Mr. Lang some days later saying that he was awaiting the results of an inter-departmental inquiry into the loss of the San Juan and upon receipt of that and upon consideration thereof, he would then decide whether there was any need for a further inquiry. And I have heard nothing further from him to this date. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. Does the minister now not think that sufficient time has gone by when he should jog the minister's •emory and try and get a decision on this?

Obviously the report must be in the hands of the minister by now, the inter-departmental report. MR. HICKMAN: I most assuredly do. It is not a question of jogging the mind of the Minister of Transport in Ottawa. If han. gentlemen will read the press,as I am sure they do,they will note that there are two han. members, namely, Mr. Jack Marshall, M.P., and Mr. James A.McGrath, M.P., who jogged the minister's mind almost daily in the House of Commons. MR. CROSBIE: All it does is rattle. MR.

HICKMAN: And to date there has been no indication from that han. gentleman in Ottawa that he intends to respond to the representation of the government of Newfoundland, or the representation of anyone else. And may I aii, Mr. Speaker, that this is not the first representation that has been made by the Moores Administration to the Minister of Transport 4071

March 30, 1976 Tape no. 1516 Page 3 ·- raw Mr. Hickman _. in Ottawa for the establishment of adequate sel!>reh and rescue facilities. The first representation was made fo.llowin,g the strmding of the Cape BrUle 'behind Miquelon in 1973:, and the respo~e _from ~ then Minis -ter of Transport, Mr. Marchand~ was somewhat similar to that as was received and has been received to date froin his success _or in office. But it is the determ!nation of this ll-4ministration to pursue this matter and hopefUlly together with- MR. NEARY: But that is long range, We have to get the San Juan. thing straightened out. MR.

HICKMAN: - the members of Par_li&ll)ent in Ottawa, we will event\Ullly persuade Mr. Lang,or his successor,to establish these very necessary facilities. Insofar as the judicial inquiry is concerned, in my opinion, it should be done now. AN HON.- !,~EMBER: Right. MR. HICKMAN: I:t did not take ••this long to decide to appoint a ju(iieial inquiry foll!)Wing the loss of the Patrick Mortis and the other shJ,p, the seiner. MR. NEARY; Agreed. We are in agreement. SOME liON. ~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The bon. member for Fogo. 4072

March 30, 1976 Tape 1517 MR . SPEAKER: Is it a supplementary? MR. ROBERTS : No,a question if it is in order. Sir. MR. SP.EAKER: The hen. member for Fogo. MR. ROBERTS: Go ahead, 'Earl 1 • CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, a question to the hen. Minister of Fisheries.

Can the Minister of Fisheries inform the House why IB-1 the difference in the advertisement which appeared in today's press which rea~s,"Tenders are invited from bona fide fishermen for four boats construe ted for fishermen at Placentia." The other one, "Tenders are invited from the general public for three wooden boats constructed as part of a course for shipbuilding for fishermen at St. Anthony." Why the difference? Why one for the general public and the other one for the bona fide fishermen? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Hinister of Fisheries. ~~. W. CARTER: I will have to take that question as notice, ~!r. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER : The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary to that. Is the minister aware that the select committee on fisheries last year recommended that all boats produced by the trade schools as part of their courses in boat building be offered in the first instance only to fishermen? In that light would he further answer the question asked by the gentleman from Fogo Capt. H insor)~ MR . H. CARTER: I am aware, Mr. Speaker, and I said I would take the question as notice which I intend to do }ffi, SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would 1 ike to ask the ~!inister of Health - AN HON . }ffi}1BER: Oh, oh! }ffi, NEARY: There is a way to question the Speaker you know. You do not insult him. If you want to question, there is a procedure. ~ · r. Speaker , I would 1 ike for the - ~'Jl.. SU :ONS : ~'R. SPEAKER: ~·r. Speaker, on a point of order. A point of order, please. 4073

March 30, 1976 Tape 1517 IB-2 HR. SH!MONS: If that snarky remark was aimed at me, I first of all reject it and say I know how to question the Speaker and I shall do it if necessary. ¥R. NEARY: Want to rule on that, Your Honour? YR. SPEAKER: Order, please: The hon. members in asking questions occasionally are frustrated because many han. members get to their feet more or less at the same time and hon. members, I think, can quite reasonably show a little frustration by gesture or otherwise. The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

I would like to ask the minister if he would give us an updating on the flu sweeping Newfoundland at the present time. I believe it is called - is it - the swine flu. How many people have died? If ~he minister's department is going to go ahead with proposed inoculation of all the population of Newfoundland? Can the minister give us a pr~gress report on the flu sweeping Newfounlland at the present time? _MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. _l!R. II. COLLINS: The flu that swept Newfoundland. ~IR. NEARY: Swept, okay. MR. H. COLLINS: Hr.

Speaker, the first virus which was identified in recent months was the type B variety vhich as all han. members must know now from reports which have been issued by the Chief Medical Health Officer and myself indicated that it was not a very severe variety. In recent weeks it was thought that the type A variety which is prevalent on the mainland might have arrived in the Province. Some tests were done. Swabs were sent to Halifax and the lab eventually came up with the identification of the type A flu, type A virus.

In the meantime both of those types, type A and B are on the decrease and the experts tell me that there should not be too much to worry about from here on. With regard to the swine type virus in the United States, MR. DOODY: The han. members opposite should swab themselves. 4074

March 30, 1976 Tape 1517 UR. R . COLLINS: We do not know how accurate the information is coming out of the United States, ~~ether there is a panic situation or what but federal health off icials and our own officials have been together IB-3 on this this past week or ten days. I would hope by April 1 or April 2 to be able to make a definitive statement to the House indicating what we might or might not be doing with regard to the swine type . HR. NEARY: 1-!r . Speaker - ~~ . SPEAKER: A supplementary? ~~ . NEARY: I beg your pardon, Sir? HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary? MR. NEARY: No, it is not a supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: I recognize the hon·. member for Fogo. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. CAPT, WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, might I direct another question to the bon. Minister of Fisheries. I do not know whether the - AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! CAPT. WINSOR: She is not on, AN RON. MEMBER: It is on now. CAPT. WINSOR: Cannot hear? ORGAN: ~peak into the ~i~e. That is Vhat i t is there for. CAPT. WINSOR: The mike is suppQSed to piclt up - AN HON . MEI-1BER: Oh, oh ! MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! CAPT. WINSOR: The hon. Minister of Transportation seems to be very ticklish today. 4075

l ....... ~arch 30, 1976 Tape No. 1518 NH - 1 CAPT. WINSOR: A question to the hon. }!inister of Fisheries, I do not know whether it comes under his jurisdiction or whether it was a joint programme, last year there was a programme carried out in Conception Bay to retrieve some of what we call the ghost net fishing, Nowhas the minister received any report as to the effect of that retrieving programme? Did the programme or was it revealed that those gill nets are still fishing and the fish are still alive after a period of time? Has the minister any report on this? ~ ~. SPEAKER (nR. COLLINS): The hon.

Minister of Fisheries. 1"R. 1-1. CARTER: ~r. Speaker, we did last Fall undertake some dragging for ghost nets,and that is what I think is referred to, nets that are left in the water and are allowed to fish,and then when the fish get in them the nets sink to the bottom and then eventually they float back up and they fill up again and sink to the bottom again, and this is a very serious problem. But last year we did undertake to drag certain areas of the Province, I think it was Trinity and Conception Bay, and it was a very successful experiment.

I think the first day out the ship retrieved something like forty nets. We will be undertaking a similar programme this year,and more than likely we will be intensifying it because it is very necessary and I believe that thr. federal government will be undertaking a similar programme as well. CAPT. HINSOR: J)id they last year? t-1R . lv. CARTER: ~ot last year, no. }'11.. SPEAKER (DF. COLLINS) : This will be the final question. The hon. member for Bellevue. ~. CALLAN: }<r.

Speaker, in the absence of the Premier perhaps the Minister of Manp~er can tell me whether or not it is a fact that the mothballing operations at the Come By Chance oil refinery have slowed down or ceased, is that a fact? HR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Ninister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: ¥r. Speaker, as far as I know it is certainly not intended that they slow down and I know of no slow down in the 4076

March 30, 1976 Tape No. 1518 and 1519 Nl" - 2 }fll. CROSBIE: mothballing operation I believe which is supposed to carry on until the end of May or it will take - it is supposed something like eight weeks altogether. There i~ no slow down as I know of, but I will check the matter out. OP,DEP.S OF THE D_AY: l·'R. WELLS: Hot ion 4, first readinss, 't'r. Speaker.

On motion of the hon. i'linister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Wills Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill no. 25) On motion of the hon. 11inister of Justice, a bill, "Ari Act To Enable Extra-Provincial Custody Orders To Be Enforced In The Province Of Newfoundland,'' read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill no. 26) On motion of the hon. Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Women's Patriotic Trust Fund," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No.24). On motion of the han.

Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Keeping Of Dogs," read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 7). On motion of the hon. Minister of Justice, a bill, "An--Act To Amend The Prisons Ac-t," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 27). On motion of the hon. Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Evidence Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 28). On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 4077

~:arch 30, 1976 Tape 1520 IB-1 HR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The hon. member for St. John's East. HR. MARSHALL: ~ir. Chairman, when we adjourned yesterday we were on the matter of Interim Supply which is approximately, well it is actually $134,500,000 Hhich is stated to be for two months of the year. Now, Hr. Chairman, before getting into the main gist of my remarks Hith respect to the Interim Supply Bill, I think I might point out to the Committee that I know of no more critical issue facing this Committee or this House than the financial position in lvhich this Province now stands.

The large amount of the provincial debt, the large amount of the debt service fund that are necessary in order to service this debt, I must confess are matters which are almost becoming, to me anYl'ay, a real obsession,because, Mr. Chairman, of the critical balance between the amount of our provincial resources and the amount that we have to expend on interest amounts. I should also say, 1-lr. Chairman, that I am also very concerned about what lvould appear to be the lack of public awareness.

It seemed to me.anyway,to be the lack of public awareness or appreciation of the effect that this debt will have in the future and is having now on the provision of services for the people of this Province. Now it is not very easy, Hr. Chairman, for a person who is in a position of government backbencher, who traditionally must usually get up and is a supporter of the government - a government backbencher must usunlly, is expected to get up and make statements only in glorification of the government itself or else to keep very mute and very quiet.

Certainly it is very rare that a government backbencher would really get up and make statements with respect to the financial position of the country or the financial affairs of the government lest some remarks may be taken as being misconstrued. Generally speaking backbenchers do not speak or attempt to speak in any kind of an analytical manner about the financial position of the Province. But I feel in this case, Mr. Chairman, my reaarks are not going to be any way criticial of the government. But I fully intend 4078

Harch 30, 1976 Tape 1520 IB-2 MR. MARSHALL: to speak in the estimates and in Interim Supply on every chance I get with respect to the financial position,because I think it is so critical that every member of the government, every elected person, should express his opinion. Now, Hr. Chairman, on this particular bill we face one of the major issues that is going to confront this country today and for many years to come. This is the issue of whether we can afford to continue to borrow at the rate we are borrowing and at the rate envisaged by this Interim Supply Bill. In my view we clearly cannot.

We are not able to continue to borrow at the rate we have been borrowing, and in my view also we are borrowing too much this year.

Whether or not it can be avoided is another question,but I do not think members on either side of the House, on the government side or the Opposition side, would be prepared to disagree with the fact that borrowing $196 million,which we are to borrow directly this year,coupled with the borrowings in the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation which the Budget Speech indicates is going to be $50 million,and Newfoundland MunicipalFinancing Corporation, which is in the vicinity of $26 million, and you add to that - I do not believe these borrowings include the proposed borrowings for the Gull Island - you are talking really about $300 million.

We cannot cut the fish both ways. I have always said that I regarded the Provincial Building Company,l..rhen the shares were held by the government,to be in effect a direct debt of the government of this Province. Certainly the Provincial Building Company was when the shares were held by the government of this Province,before the government ------negotiated its way out of that situation. If the government was liable then, it certainly is obviously liable for debts in Newfoundland Hydro, for Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation and for what we borrowed for Gull Island.

So in effect what really we are talking about is borrowing $196 million for regular government business,but an extra many millions 4079

~rch 30, 1976 T:~pe 1520 :;r.. :·•MS!l.,\J,L: of dollars,in the vicinity of $300 oillion in total, for the needs of this Province. lB-3 ~~. SYALLWOOD: That is the true bill with a large amount going to Gull Island. ~!R. HARSHALL: ~!ell it •.Jould be even more , I believe , for Gull Island by the timeit ~ounted up. _;1t. S"ALLHOOJl: You are not counting Gull Island? I'lL ~:A..Il.SI!ALL : It is my understand inc, ~·r. Chairman, of ~1hat the ~linister of Finance Sllid in his speech.

I do not think the figure of $196 million - he nods his head - the figure of $196 million does not include provision for Gull I~land,which I understand is to be bor r owed by the l!e~<.foundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation or the Cull Island Co!'lpany. 4080

March 30, 1976 Tape no. 1521 Page 1 - mw Mr. Smallwood. Would the hon. gentleman allow an interruption, a friendly one? Would he spell out for us and ask the minister to confirm what the han. gentleman will spell out,if he will, how much is the Province to be liable for, to be borrowed in the coming year altogether, no matter who borrows? How much is the Province going to be responsible for, not counting Gull Island because I do not think there will be anything borrowed on that? MR. MARSHALL: Well, Mr. Chairman, you know, I think it is very clearly set forth in the Budget Speech by the hon.

MinsiSter of Finance where he says that we borrow $196 million this year. There is $50 million on Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. MR. CHAIRMAN: Could I ask that it be quiet in the corridor,please1 I cannot hear the hen. member speaking. The hen. member for St. John's East. HR. ~!ARSHALL: Mr.

Chairman, in response to that question, it is fairly set forth there in the Tiudget Speech, and I know the Minister of Finance would interrupt me if I am incorrect, but he very clearly in his very concise statement in the Budget Speech, indicated that it was $196 million, plus another $50 million for Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation, plus another $26 million for the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation, plus the amount that is going to be necessary for Gull Island. I think that that is the situation. It is all in the Budget Speech. HR. SHALLWOOD: Page? MR.

MARSHALL: Page fourteen of the Budget Speech. Anyway, Mr. Chairman, the solution is not - I heard the han . member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) yesterday give a speech in this committee which was more in the nature of a budget speech,as well as the speech of the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). And they were good speeches in what they said, but I cannot agree with the ' thesis put forth by the han. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) to the effect that what he seems to want to do is to cut $250 million 4081

March 30, 1976 Tape no. 1521 Page 2 - mw Mr. Marshall. off and then put on certain things,like for the polytechnical institute and what have you. MR. SMALLWOOD: No, no! MR. MARSHALL: Well,maybe I misunderstood it. MR. SMALLWOOD: Cut out $200 million. That would still leave you $50 million over the billion, and use the $50 million to start these projects. MR. MARSHALL: Well, you know, it comes to the same thing, Mr. Chairman - MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. MR. MARSHALL: - because really what the hon.member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) was saying was cut down some but add really something on. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. MR.

MARSHALL: This is the effect. And quite frankly - and I do not think this is gl.oom and doom0 I think this is pure.plain realism - I do not think we can afford to have this choice of adding anything on. I think the only way that we can afford to meet the present challenge in this country today is to cut the borrowings and cut them, if not out, almost out,as far as you possibly can. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. MR. MARSHALL: Now the only way to do this is obviously to spend less, and the question is: Can this be done? Can this possibly be done?

The Minister of Finance very thoroughly indicated that in order for this to be done there has got to be certain suspension of programmes. He indicated this in the Budget Speech, and I am afraid, Mr. Chairman, that this is one of the alternatives that we just have to face in this Province today. Now the government,! might say,is in a very difficult job- ":ny government, whatever government is in charge in this Province ·It_ is not a very simple job arranging the budgetary 4082

March 30, 1976 Tape no . 1521 Page 3 - mw Mr. ~1arshall. requirements,responding to the budgetary requirements at best, because the demands in this Province are heavy, and the needs are great, and the demands are really horrendous . So it is not an easy1 it an horrendous problem. It is not an easy thing, and it is very easy if one is in Opposition, or even if one is not a member of the Cabinet, to sit back and say, ''oh, , the budget has got to be cut. There will have to be cuts. There will have to be dramatic cuts in order to be able to cope with the situation ," Because there are very few cholces .

So I kuow when I make these s tat ements that I am asking the government to do something that is extremely difficult, something that is easier said than done, but something that I really feel, you know, has to be done . And the only way, I think, it can be done though, Ur. Chairman, is to cure the lack of public awareness of the situation, that is the financial situation in which we find ourselves enmesh ed and mired Now this requires 1 in my estimation,leadership. It requires leadership in the country, and it requires leadership in all phases of activity . Hr. Speaker , I can give you can example of that.

We have to have an awareness beTe . We have the Budget Speech, and we are inundated . This government is inundated. The previous government was inundated. Every government is inundated when a budget speech comes in by leaders in vari ous sectors of our society saying, 4083

~~arch 30, 1976 Tape No. 1522 m< - 1 ~ '1' • t~A RSHALL : ~~ e have not got enough money for this, and we have not got enough money for that,and have not got enough money for the other thing, blaming the government and using the government really as a whipping boy. And the reason why they are doing this 1 as I say,is a lack of public awareness, They just do not appreciate the nature of the financial situation which we are in.

They do not appreciate the climate that we are in, they do not realize that we have no choice,that there is no choice left to Newfoundland,and the atmosphere that is being created is one that is causing a very ugly mood and ugly feelings in this country today that nobody ne·eds to have any great deal of perception to realize. ~~r. r.hairman, I would cite one particular example of what I consider to be the lack, without sh~ering any condemnation, but the lac k of m~areness on the part of people in this Province, a real dramatic awareness of it, A real dramatic instance of it is the situation with respect to the Clarenville Hospital which the han. member for Trinity North (Mr.

Brett) is so vitally interested in, 1vhich we are all interested in. lve would all like to see hospitals. We all have these dreams,! suppose,for everywhere in ' Ne1vfoundland, but there is not enough money. And there would appear to be, there is definitely not enough money,however much we would like to see a hospital in Clarenville,in order for the hospital to be built this year. There is just not enough money. That is a fact of life. We have not got enough money. The people of Newfoundland have not got enough money.

Now that is the situation that the government has to wrestle with, such an instance as occurred through one of the media here, VOCM, thinking it is doing its duty to the public, in all reasonable fairness ,r suppose,it does it wf.th all sorts of good will, and you hear ads on the radio fTOm time to time, 4084

"arch 30, J.07F. '!'ape No. 1522 NM - 2 l<TI. MARSHALL: or you did hear them up to recently, "Join and s:lgn the petition vrhich is heing circulated in the area and help to show the government that you are determined to get your hospital in this area." So this is the type of thing with which ~,re are faced,and I do not necessarily blame VOCJI1 but I just say that it is a symptom of what what is occurring throughout our society, the lack of awareness of the financial situation. MR. NEARY: They may be telling the government to get their priorities in order.

HR. 'A~Sf!ALI. : '!'hey may be attempting to tell the government to get its priorities in order,but I think it has to be realized by the people of this Province, by everybody, that there is just not enough money to be able to afford everything , And if they want to tell the government to get their priorities in order that is certainly their prerogative,and more pm•er to them,and let them go ahead and do it, hut at the same time when I say I would like to see a little bit more of propagation of the fact that government really does not have, and the people of this Province really do not have the power or the money at the present time to be able to realize the dreams that everyone would like for this T'rovince. •<>t.

NEARY: What about all we are wasting on the ~-~T.l!la and _ 9~ad_ys? t'R. }'ARSHALL: 1~ell, we can get to that when we gf't into the estimates. Because there, obviously,! am, as you will see when I get on farther '"'ith my remarks on the' Interim Supply- MR. SIMW'JNS: Would the hon. member permit a question? ~. KAPSHALL: Well,if it is a question, yes. I mean if it is a - t--'1'1. SHII'<nNS: No, it is not meant to be harrassment. I am interested in what you are saying. I agree very much, Mr. Chairman, with what he has said, and I thank him for yielding the floor just for a moment. 4085

.March 30, 1976 Tape No . 1522 NM - 3 }I'R. SIMMONS: I ~~on~er would he put his comments~ though, in the context not only of the need which 111ay exist, or Which does exist there,and the impatience of the people to which he has referred, but also in the context of the government's responsibility having 111ade a clear commitment on that just a few months previous. Where does the govenu~~ent 's responsibility lie here? MR. PARSHALL:. I think, Mr. Shairman-you know,the question is rationally put by the hon. meinber but it is political in nature.

The fact that the government might have lliade a commitment or a promise with respect to it is one thing. ~overnments ans¥er for commitments that are unfulfllled when they get to the electorate at an election, Now I do not know whether they directly made that commitment or not. I a.m obviously not the member for Trinity North. But the fact of the matter is whatever commitment may have made,and whatever th~ need may be, whatever the commitment may be, the fact of the matter is we have not got the money to realize all of the dreams that the people of Newfoundland dream w.tth respeet to their requirements. 408€

ttarch 3'1, lq76. l·m. Mt\.RSHALL : Tape 1523 RII - 1 l'r.

Chairman, there is no appreciation in this Province of our present financial condition,and the only way that I see that this can be done is if there is full debate and disclosure and it is in this committee, which will shortly go into a Committee on the Estimates,where it must he done. llow, I would like to make a particular plea with respect to the estimates this vear. 1-lhen we came into, when the government came into power we amenden the rules of this House with respect to the estimates so that there are only seventy-five hours for consideration of the estimates. That happenecl to be by the way, Mr.

Chairman, the second longest time in modern history in this Province for consideration of the estimates. There was one year, a special year,that it went on a little bit longer. So we allowen quite adequate time. HR. SNALL\~00D: Is the hon. gentleman, is he saying that since Confederation the fir;ure of SPventy-five hours fixed by the rules is in fact as long as ever the estimates were debated in the budget? MR. "ARSHAU,: "!o, I am not saving 'ever' but I am saying since - lffi . S~~LLWOOD: No, since Confederation. MR. HARSHALL: - since Confederation- I am saying it is the longest but one.

We checked this very carefully, ~r. Chairman, When we set the limit of seventy-five hours with this in view. There was one year that was a particularly acrimonious year,when there were more people in Opposition than there had heen in previous years, that it went on longer. But we set the- or this House, really, set the time of seventy-five hours. I!R . Sl!ALLPOOJ): How 'R'as it timed? How could they measure the time? _!(R. HARSHAU.: Flow could they measure a time? We measured it from the journals that were available in the House, that were kept from - you know, it was approximation.

I would not say that you could get it right down to the minute. But you could get a very accurate reading from the journals of the House as to how much time is actually spent, you know, the minutes read, the House went into Committee and they considered estimates, 4087

March 30, 1976. Tape 1523 RH - 2 MR. MARSHALL : they adjourned, the House ro.se at such and such a period of time. We researched that very, very carefully by the clerks of the Rouse, Mr. Chairman, at the time that we put the limit of seventy-five hours on it. MR. NEARY: You made a proper shag of it, boy • . MR. MARSHALL: So it was quite evident that the seventy-five hours was quite sufficient. It was quite adequate. We checked with other areas of Canada as well and we found this was so.

What happened was this : 1-Te have had this in vogue and the Opposition with then the hon. the member for LaPoile(Mr, Neary) - MR. DOODY: He was the Opposition. MR. MARSHALL: He was the Opposition. I can say the hon. - but I cannot blame - MR. SMALLWOOD: You can almost say he still is. MR. NEARY: I took seventy of the seventy-five hours. MR. MARSRAI,L: \<e can give him credit for any of the qualities we have, hut we cannot blame him for all the faults that the Opposition had, Mr. Chairman. But anyway the Opposition took this as a contest.

So we went on for twenty-six hours, in one c.ase.on education where persons' theories - ·-- \ on education were debated ad nauseam. This is not what the Committee on Estimates is for. The han. member for LaPoile is over there grinning with ~reat glee but we also went on ad nauseam about his favourite topic, the law society and what " have you. This was not what really the Committee on estimates were for. MR. NEARY: .Justice is not on the estimates? ~ffi. MARSHALL: As a result of which we had three, four, five and six departments that have never been debated since we made this rule change.

Public works, for instance, a department that is very dear to my heart, is something that has not been debated and I would like to see its estimates examined. Tourism is another department. Recreation and Rehabilitation has not been debated,purely and simply because people were droning on and 4088

March 30, 1976. MR. MARSHAJ.L : Tape 1523 RH - 3 on and on without asking. The purpose of estimates is for the purpose of asking questions, ferreting out information, getting the information as to the financial condition of the Province. Then,hopefully with an informed press, the financial condition will be promulgated to the country and then ~re will have a better appreciation of what the situation is. }fl\ . Nl'.ARY : That is what you are doing now because the clock is ticking on. MR • MARSHALl. : I '~ill only be a few moments. But this is instructional. This is much different.

HR.NF.ARY: \.Jhen you say it, it is instructional. We say it, H is not. MR. 1-'IA...~SHi\LL: If t'l.e han. member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) listens he mir,ht learn something. I doubt it but he might. NR. CHAIRMAN : }1R . }fARSfiALL : Order, please! But now, Mr. Chairman, at the same time - I will just conclude this part of it by saying at the same time there was a rule change which made it possible for the Chairman of Committees to rule out unnecessary repetition or the House, the Speaker or the Chairman of Committee, to rule out of order unnecessary repetition.

Now if a person desires to be unnecessarily repetitious in the House,that is one thing,but he can use up his forty-five minutes any way he likes. Rut ••here he is unnecessarily repetitious in the Chamber he is infringing on the time of others,and I suggest that one of the ways in which we can have a closer look at the estimates,as well as having the Opposition decide that they are going to debate every department,which they them- sevles can decide really they are the ones in charge of the time spent on each department. Another way 4089

March 30, 1976 Tape 1524 PK - 1 Mr. Marshall: in which it must be done is for the enforcement of the rule of unnecessary repetition that has been put in and also the matter of relevance. t1JI.. NEARY: Who could call that to order? MIL MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, this is important,as I say 1 because of this fact that we have no~ -this factor that we have now,the borrowing, the high~borrowing, because I really feel that the realization of today's dreams with other person~money are really going to be - the money of other people, is really going to be the nightmare of tomorrow.

And I think that nightmare is really fast growing upon us. Now the Minister of Energy yesterday,and the House Leader when the debate was on,asked a question with respect to how should we reduce, how possibly are we going to reduce the borrowing? Now that is a large question and it is a vital one. And at the same time they asked the,speaker, the person who was speaking- I do not know if it was the Member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood),or LaPoile (Mr. Neary), or the member for Burgee (Hr. Simmons~J ,'that would they have us reduce the salaries? \olell I say, Mr.

Chairman, and I say this unequivocally, that unless something is done to wrestle with the provincial dabt of this Province that you are going to come to the day when you are going to have to be making such decisions with respect to current account, and that is why the matter is so deeply urgent.

I know the Minister of Energy understands this when he says " that today, for instance, even if you take the $200 million that the government is borrowing directly~ apart from the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation and the Municipal Financing Corporation where repayment may be financed in another manner. - we will have to consider that. - but even if you take $200 million, well next year obviously at 16 per cent we are going to have to find $20 millions to pay interest on that amount next year. MR. SHALL HOOD: And sinking fund. MR.

MARSHALL: And if we do not find the $20 millions from current account next year, well,we are just going to have to borrow it again. 4090

March JO, 1976 Tape 1524 PK - 2 Mr. Marshall: So that $20 millions in the following year will become $24 millions. And the day is dawning, Mr. Chairman, and the day is coming, and it is just as well for us to face it in this House, and the government and the country to face it, the day is coming when we have got to face the situation as it exactly is - MR. SMALLWOOD: Hear, hear!

MR . }~SHALL : where, no matter how unpalatable it may be, that programmes have to be curtailed, and that we have to meet the real needs of this Province, and to take the direction that this Province so earnestly needs at the present time by reducing the debt, the borrowing of the Province this year. I think the amount is very, very,extremely high. It is easy,as I say, to stand here and make that statement when you are not charged with the responsibility,really,as a cabinet minister would be of shaving it down.

But I think that the debt has to be shaved down, and in order to do this, as I say, there has to be a much greater degree of public awareness, and there has to be a much greater degree of public direction by the leaders of our society in all aspect in doing this. Also, Mr. Chairman, with respect to realization of the financial situation which is so evidently needed as a result of the statements that are made, I mean, the bon. Minister of Finance in his emergency budget attempted, and made a real earnest attempt,to try to bring this forthrightly to the people of this Province, but it has not been appreciated.

And I think one of the reasons why is because all of the financial affairs of the Province are not completely known. Government has become almost too complicated. This House of Assembly itself has become quite irrelevant as far as it being an organ for the examination of the budget, or as far as it being an organ for the examination of the financial situation of the Province. So I say that in addition to a determination to examine the estimates properly,that I would ask the government,in this case,to bring in fully the estimates on Crown corporations.

This Committee may remember that I made this same observation when we were talking about 4091

March 30, 1976 Tape 1524 PK - 3 lir. 'MII.rshall: the emergency budget. I think that was in the Fall of last year.

I think that the Crown coJ:l)orations- Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corpo·ration, Newfoundland and Labrador Rousing Corporation, yes • even Newfoundland Lindrboard Limiteq..:- every single Crown corporation that has a demand on the public purse of this Province 1 that their accounts ought to be bought bdore this House because they have not really been examined except after thefact:in the past through the Auditor G1meral 's report, that perhaps because of the emergencJ of the situation we ought to adopt a special measure of ~£erring Crown corporations to ;e:Omldttees of this House, have the officials of these Crown corporationt~ c0111e1 before the Committee and have them e.xauiine as to every single iota of 1110ney that they are given to spend on the public's behalf.

MR. NEARY: How a'l?out Memarial University'l 4092

March 30, 107~, Tape 1525, Page 1 -- apb MR. Y.ARSllALL: Memorial University comes into it, but I would like to say with respect to Memorial University that I would have a certain amount of fear of pressing Memorial to the extent that the han. member for I.aPoile (Mr. Neary) seems to wish to,and seems to have such obvious enjoyment in so doing. But certainly there has to be an accountability at Hemorial University to this Province and to the people of this Province,if for nothing else but to make sure that the people of this Province are gettinp. their money's worth with respect to Hemorial.

But this does not mean that the hen. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) should uut on my hat of a few years ago and go off on a '~itch hunt against the ~~emorial University '~ith a view to desecrating it and tearing it down. There has to be a certain moderation in all thin~s, •tr. Chairman. l'IR. NEARY: Did they confirm their public tendering procedure, or conform to the public tendering procedure? }m. MARSHALL: Most certainly. Everybody should conform to the public tendering. Everybody should conform, Mr. Chairman,to the public tendering system of this Province. HR.

NF.ARY: 1•ell,Memorial University is not, at the present time. MR. MARSHALL: l·Tell, we can get into that afterwards. As I say, time goes on and we want to keep most of the time for the meaning­ ful examination of the estimates. A couple of quick questions before I sit down though, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the Interim Supply and with respect to my favourite department, that of Public Works. I notice that the han. Acting Minister looks at me, but I notice that the Public Harks Department has $7 million voted in Interim Supply.

I also notice that the total vote for the year for Public l-'orks is some $14 million. It was my impression that Interim Supply was to be for two months, so one-sixth of .~14 million is two million-odd dnllars. I wonder. whether the Minister. of Finance - or the acting 'finister of Public Harks could perhaps give a brief explanation of why the Public Works vote is apparently SO per cent of the year? 4093

March 30, 1976, Ta~e 1525, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: The hon. the Acting Minister of Public Works gave me a paper showing it but I - that is ~ine, he gan show it to me - but I think that. the public - this is the whole point of the exercise - that the public should be made aware of it as well. I would also like to observe from the Budget Speech, Mr. Chairman, that this is the first response I saw in the Budget Speech to the position - I do not think it was a direct response, it was an indirect response - of posi t ion to the government on my position with respect to the Gull Island.

And I note that in the Budget Speech - as fairly and honestly as this government always does in revealing the financial affairs of this Province - it does indicate that no agreement has been made yet with Hydro Quebec and there has been no agreement with respect to the financing through the federal government.

I have to, I would say, reiterate my previous statements that I made in the House last Autumn when I took -a-p"Osit i on on ~he- bill, and I particularly say that in view of the large amount of borrowing of this Province, and I wonder whether we can really afford to continue on with the Gull Island in its present position where the continuance on it is really, in effect, a gamble. As I say, I mention that again for what it is worth. Now there are many items, Mr. Chairman, of which one can speak and which I will go into when the main estimates are considered, but this is just merely Interim Supply.

Obviously, I would hope that the government would be able to see fit, that somehow or other we would be able to see fit to borrow less than we have predicted we are going to borrow in the Budget. I realize that is a tall order. As I say, it is easier said than done, and I would hope that the deliberations of the Committee on the estimates will be fruitful and meaningful and not just rubber- stamped. I mean,it is not a question of having matters put up and having them voted down because a government cannot be defeated on a money matter without being defeated.

I certainly have no desire to see this government defeated because I think it is doing 4094

}!arch 30, 1976 , Tape 1525, Page 3 -- a ph HR. HARSIIALL: the best 1oh that any ~overnment ever has in w-cestling with an entirely, almost, intolerable situation not of its o"'ll creation . It came to po~1er, I might say, at a time when large expenditures were committed by the previous administration in tts desire to keep in power. And it has had ver y little chance to do anything else , because of the lar~e amounts of money that have to be found to even meet th~ public debt. nut be that as it may.

Ab I say, I hope that the government will consider the suggestions that I have made and if at all possible will reduce this horrendous debt t~at we are r,oinp. to accrue ~~ain this yea r. The debt service fund of ~1~8 million, ~r. Chairman, this yeaL will be $124 million next year and it will ascend nnd ascend and ascend accordin~ly. I notice also, Mr. C-hairman, on one of the schedules in the Budr.ct Speech - and I mi~ht say in talkinp. about this debt that T nm talkiOJ; about interest and talking about sinkinp: funds - that therr! ~~ere some 4095

March 30, 1976 Tape No. 1526 NM- 1 ~ .• ~ARSRALL: very questionable 1 as far as I am concerned, decisions made in 1969 and various othar times when there apparently is a large • if you look at appendix2 on page 128 you will aee a large amount of monies which will be falling due in the 1980's,which is not too far away1 for which there have apparently been absolutely no provisions made for a sinking fund either as a result of agreement with the borrower themselves '·or as a result of the government providing its own sinking fund.

And I would draw this to the attention of the government as well, because this is an added expenditure and if1 for instance,the Deutsche mark loan in Germany does not require sinking fund 1as it does not appear to do according to the schedule,then I think we ought to provide ourselves for the provision of our own sinking fund to guard against that day in 1988 when we have to pay out hugh amounts of money to retire that loan. I might state that that is not the only loan; there are others. Now, Mr.

Chairman, in conclusion,as I say I make statements hoping that they will be constructive, hoping that they will be well received because I feel that this is of vital concern to the people of this Province, the financial position in which we now find:ourselves. I feel that this government has done"jas I say , a better Job than any other entity,or otherwise I would not be supporting it, to grapple with this debt and I realize it is a horrendous responsibility.

But I say the time has come and the time has come right now, as painful and all as it may be,to stop government borrowings, to stop them completely before we end up choking up, before we end up choking the future of our children or grandchildren and our children's children for generations to come,because that is exactly what is going to happen. The thing which the members of the front benches of this government,or no member in this House,wish to see happen,and that is the intrusion on current account to the great detriment of the society of this Province,is occurring.

It is occurring now and it is going to occur with even great intensity if borrowings 4096

"arch 30, 1976 Tape No. 1526 N}f - 2 MR. }'A'RSHALL: continue at the rate that they have been progressing over the past years. SOME RON . MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! ·~. NEA?Y: ~r. Chairman, the hon. member for St. John's East (>•r. Marshall) made some very interesting c.otlll'lents in his fct-r ,,rief rel!larks 1 many of ~1hich 1 agree td th, Sir. Yesterday, 11s I 1 istenec1 to the :,on. member for Twillingate ("'r. Smallv7ood), I took note of some of the points that '~ere raised by the 'Jon.

Mel'lber,esped .ally the ,~arnir>p, that vTas thrown out to the ~tovernment,And I think to a certain r\egree . th<' member. for St. Jc>hn's ~ast (IA"r. ''arshall) sort of half-hoisted the red flap: today, sort of flicked on and off the red light that the government should slow c1mm on i.ts harrowing. '!'he hen. Member, Sir, has been noted over the last year and a half or so since '1-te left the Cabinet to be able to stand up M' a supporter of tl'e 3overm'lent :!.n the bad·_ benches, and sort 0f r.riticized the> adminis<;ration that he is helping to keer in power.

T'1MPac1 nf l'tvirw the p,overnment a hobnail boot that you would expect the memher to co, he r:ets up, Sir, and p:ives hi.m a. sort of a kick Fi t1l a J ittlc soft slipper on 1-:is foot. ~lr. Speaker, I am wondering 11m' long more this can continue, that the member for 3t. John 1 s 'lort)1 ("Tr. J. Carter) and the member for St. John's East (~r. "arshall) can stand in their places in this hon. Ilouse and c.riticize the admi.nistration t'~nt they are helping to keep in power. T realize, Sir, the~ are trying to maintain their inter,rity. "'hey are tryinp to l:ecp their credibility intact.

They are tryinp, to lool~ nfter the:l.r puhlic image. But, Sir, they can make all the excuses they lj_ke, "r. Chairman, they either have to do one thing or the otl,er. They have to move or get off the pot. ~'r. Speaker, they cnnnot, Sir, they cannot talk out of both sides of their mouth at the s ame timP. .,,.., .. T~ T . T~~: Like the hen. member . 4097

March 30, 1976 Tape 1527 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: No, the hon. member does not. When the hon. member gets up he gives the government a hobnailed boot, not a little soft slipper kick like we just saw from the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall). It is a serious situation, Sir. If hon. members, back­ benchers or ministers on the government side of the House~do not agree with the government policy,well there is plently of room over here, Sir, to put a couple of more seats.

They do not have to come over and join the old-line LiberalcParty, and I am sure the hon. member is not so ·· much in love with the Leader of the Opposition to do that. They do not have to join the Liberal Reforms. They do not even have to be Independent Liberals. MR. MARSHALL: Would the hon. member permit a question? MR. NEARY: They can come over here and sit as Independent P.c. 's. MR. MARSHALL: Would the hon. member permit a question? MR. NEARY: A question,yes. MR.

MARSHALL: Does not the hon. member realize that this hon. member would be utterly terrified that he might be trampled by the hon. member for LaPoile in his desire to cross over the House and take my seat? MR. NEARY: that, Sir. Mr. Chairman, I am not going to even bother to reply to The hon. member, Mr. Chairman, obviously does not agree with the policy, with the di~ection in which his government is heading. He does not agree with it. If he does not agree with it, Sir, it is not enough for him to stand up in his place in this hon. House and just give his colleagues a little flick on the wrist.

He has to do something more drastic to bring this hon. crowd to their sense. Now I know that·would be even drastic for me, but the hon. member knows what I am talking about, what avenues are open to him. Now, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member in his remarks criticized the way the Opposition handled the estimates for the past couple of years. Well, Sir, we did not put a time limit on the discussion on the estimates. MR. ROUSSEAU: Time, please! 4098

t1arch 30, 1976 Tape 1527 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: It was the -I will -Mr. Chairman, I am coming to the han. member's department in a few minutes 1if he would just take it easy. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: And I am going to try and find out all about Scrivener before we pass this Interim Supply Bill, and talk about that ripoff that is going on over there at Memorial University that the minister and his colleagues are turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to. So the minister,all he has got to do is sit back for a moment now, and I will get around to him.

But, Sir, we did not put the time limit on the debate of the estimates in this House, and I argued against it at the time. It should never have been put on. We should have been allowed complete freedom to discuss the estimates as long as we like. And I realize, Sir, that by tomorrow night at midnight the Interim Supply Bill has to be passed in this han. House. MR. ROBERT S: They can get along for a couple of weeks. MR. NEARY: ~Jell~really~the impact of it, the reprecussions would not be felt for a couple of weeks. MR. ROBERTS: They will have to pay out salaries in a couple of weeks. MR.

NEARY: Except salaries, they might have to pay salaries out in a week or two. But we can go on for the next four or five days, we can go on for another week,if we want,discussing Interim Supply. And I have got a few things on my chest,as I said yesterday, and I only got as far as the Fisheries Department yesterday when my time ran out. But there are a few things that I have been wanting to say in this han. House, Sir, for the last year or so , and I am going to say them now when I have got the opportunity.

And the Acting Minister of Public Works, if he does not want to listen to it he can go out and sit in his Conunon Room and drink coffee if he wants to. MR. J. CARTER: Yes, and he is going. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we have been listening to criticism from the government benches about how we were screaming on this side to get the House open to discuss matters of urgent public importance, matters 4099

March 30, 1976 Tape 1527 PK - 3 Mr . Neary: ' that were affecting the economy of this Province, cine of the issues, the CCIIUI• By Chance oil refinery. Of course, t ,was one of the ones t;hat was shouting and bawling outsid~ of this Rouse to get her open, but when the govenment did decide to op,en the House it wa8 too late ,, the oil refinery had closed. ,And that is why the ho,n. ltinister of Mines and Energy should realize that his reJDarks were not getting the publicUy that he thought they should be getting. If we had come into this hon.

House, Sir, if the gove}:'n111e1lt had gone down to Come By <:~nee and laid their cards o,n the table with the people in the area, and thert invited the company to go down and do the same thing, and let the peop,le look at two sides of the story, and let the people make up their minds, and decide what they could do to try to keep that ~il r.tinery going down there;- because the big problem, Mr. Chairman, the gTeat weakness in the minister's Budget Spe~h the other day~it must have been obvious to anybOdy ~e way he started it off talking about production in this Province, 4100

March 30, 1976 Tape no. 1528 Page 1 - mw Hr. Neary. talking about work stoppages. I have been preaching that in this hon. House for the last three years, and as I listened to the minister start of his budget debate, the first thing that popped in my mind is that the next thing he is going to do is announce a productivity council that I have been proposing in this hon. House for the last two or three years.

The fact is, Sir, that we can talk about doom and gloom, and we can talk about our borrowing getting us into difficulty, and we can talk about bankrupty and how our ~reat-grandchildren are going to have to pay off the borrowing taking place right now, but the fact remains, Sir, that we should take an example of what has happened down in the United States and not take a negative attitude as some of the members are taking. What we should do, Sir, is take a positive attitude.

And instead of trying to cut down expenditures, and to cut salaries, and to cut this, and to cut back services, and this sort of thing, what we should be doing is trying to increase our Gross Provincial Product. I saw the minister being interviewed on television the other night.

He said, in answer to a question from the moderator of the programme.- how much would our Gross Provincial Product increase in 1976?- the minister said, "Oh, it will increase by 2 per cent." And the person who asked the minister the question was rather taken and he said, "Well, is that good or bad?" ''Well,,., he said, "it. is 100 per cent better than it was a year ago. It was only 1 per cent." And the minister says that is right. Well, Sir, there is the thing that we should be most concerned about, production in this Province, productivity. aback Mr.

Chairman, the Come By Chance oil refinery was contributing to the Gross Provincial Product. Now that is being wiped out. I do not know if the minister had taken that into account when he was talking about a 2 per cent increase in our GPP, but if he did, he can wipe that one off. 4101

March 30, 1976 Tape no. 1528 Page 2 - mw Mr. Neary. Mr. Speaker, it is matters like the closing of the Come By Chance oil refinery that is going to have a devastating effect on the economy of this Province. I do not know whether it was possible to keep it going or not, Sir, but the House should have been opened before it closed. It was too late. The hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) says it was his baby, and the baby was dead when the debate started. If we had come into this House man-fashion,heard the government•s side of the story, invited Mr.

Shaheen and the company officials to come in on the floor of the House, had the whole thing televised so that the people of Newfoundland could look in and get both sides of the story, the picture might have been different today, Sir. It might have been. I do not know. I still do not know both sides of the story. I only know what the Minister of Mines and Energy told us a couple of days last week·; and I do not know if all of that is true or not. I am sure that the minister put the best side forward.

I am sure there are little details and little bits and pieces of information that the minister did not give this honourable House. So, Mr. Chairman, the minister cannot blame the press for not getting publicity on what he considered to be a major policy speech. It was not a major policy speech, Sir. It was a postmortem:-- It was. a funeral. It was something like the same thing that happened to the steel mill down at the Octagon. We started up the industr~es and this hon. crowd closedthem down. And I am one of these people, Sir, and I am one of these people in this hon.

House who is optimistic enough to think that that oil refinery could have been saved. Now, Sir, not only is it going to effect our Gross Provincial Product, but it does not take word long to get out in the international business world, in the international financial world. And the next time the Minister of Finance publishes his prospectus and sends it down to New York, to the government's fiscal representatives in New York City or wherever it is, it will not look very nice to have the prospectus contain information that one of Newfoundland's major industries has shut down. 4102

March 30, 1976 Tape 1529 IB-1 HR. NEARY: As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, the thing that amuses me about this crowd, the thing that makes me laugh - MR. CROSBIE: The bon. crm;d. MR. NEARY: The han. crotvd, Sir. I read the prospectus that the minister sent to Ne"' York for the $50 million. You know, }ir. rhairman, all the criticism we get from that hon. side of the House about the previous government's industrial development programme? Well,do you know, Mr.

Chairman, in that prospectus the things, the industries that the government boasted about most to try to convince financers and the money lenders and the money people in North America to loan to this Province, do you know the industries they listed, Sir, as outstanding examples of industrial development in this Province? Does Your Honour want me to tell the House tvhat they were? Number one, the phosphorus plant at Long Harbour. The han. administration holding it up as a shining light to the business world, to the financiers, to try to attract money into this Province!

The oil refinery at Corne By Chance - and God only knows the criticism we got over that! The Linerboard mill out in Stephenville, another example of industrial development in Newfoundland. Every industry, Sir, that my bon. former colleague, the former Premier of this Province, every industry that he started up is listed in that prospectus, the l<arysto~ro Shipyards, all listed in the prospectus to do a PR job, to do a selling job on the money people to try to attract money into this Province so that the government can borrow money to carry on services and whatever else they want to do in this Province.

But now, Sir, can you imagine the repercussions? It was bad enough the kicking out of Brinco. It had serious repercussions in the international financial business world. Can you imagine now, l!r. Chairman, on top of that we have the closing of the Come By Chance oil refinery. Not a very nice thing to have to report in the next 4103

March 30, 1976 Tape 1529 IB-2 .JIR. NEARY : prospectus. And we still have not got the true picture, Sir. The oil refinery is now being put in mothballs and we still have not got the true picture. We do not know whether it should be closed or not, All we have hea~d is what the Minister of Mines and Energy has been telling us for the past couple of days. I have a feeling, Sir, myself that there are a few little details that the minister is not laying upon the table of the House. The minister is appearing to be frank and honest but there is another side to the story, Sir.

Before that oil refinery closed down, before they started to arrange to put it in mothbal1s,we should have gotten both sides of the story, and we should have brought the officials of the company in on the floor of this House,as we did befbre, not to abuse them as we saw happen back in - when was it, in 1969? AN HON. MEMBER: Before that. l!R.

NEARY: Before that, 1968, whenever it was - not to be abused but to come in and give us their side of the story, and then ~ve the whole operation down to the Come By Chance area and let the government stand up on the platform,on the stage down in a hall big enough to hold all the people who are interested,orhold a series of meetings,and let the government tell their side of the story, and then let the company tell their side of the story,· and then let the people decide. That is the only fair way to do it, Sir. That was not done.

That is why the minister is not getting the publicity that he thinks he should have been getting. All he did was give us a lecture in history. He would have been just as well off if he went over and addressed the Political Science-class over at Memorial University or bought an hour~ time on television and went out and gave his side of the story, because that is all it amounted to. So, Sir, it is a setback, a tremendous setback for Newfoundland and a blow to our gross provincial product. This was a local company that was adding to, increasing our gross provincial product. l1r.

Chairman, I will have more to say about the closing of the oil refinery when we get into that debate again,if we ever resume it again. But, Sir, 4104

March 30, 1976. }1R. NEARY: Tape 1530 RH - 1 I have got a question that I want to put to the hon. the Premier,who unfortunately is not in his seat this afternoon,and it concerns contra­ dictory statements, Sir, that are made by the hon. Premier of this Province and the hon. minister responsible for Consumer Affairs. On four or five occasions recently, Sir, the minister responsible for consumer affairs has come out publicly and stated that he is opposed - MR. MURPHY: No! MR. NEARY: The minister, Sir, has stated he is opposed, he is opposed to a separate Department of Consumer Affairs. MR. MURPHY: No.

That is not right. MR. NEARY: Well then I wish the - MR. MURPHY: Provincial Affairs is beefing up the staff to do the job. MR. NEARY: Well, all right. Put it another way, Sir. I am satisfied to put it in the words of the minister, 'beef up' that department and that is quite satisfactory. It still means that the minister is at loggerheads with his leader. !1R. MURPHY: No! MR. NEARY: It certainly does, Sir. MR.HURPIW: Never let it be said. }fR.

NEARY: The han. the Premier has stated outside of this House, inside of this House, stated in the last election, in the Throne Speech,that this Province should have a separate Department of Consumer Affairs. So you have a difference of opinion. I want a statement now from the government - }ffi. • truRPHY : What is the impact on the Gross Provincial Product? MR. NEARY: What is the impact? It is a tremendous impact on the con­ sumers of this Province. MR. MURPHY: Ah! MR.

NEARY: If the minister wants me to give him a few examples I have r,ot a few right here in my pocket that I did a little research on this morning,about the bonuses and the finder's fees and the high rates of 4105

Narch 30, lq76. ~ffi.. NEARY: Tape 153() RH - 2 interest that are charged for second mortgages in this Province. Does the minister want me to give it to him now,or will I save it until I get to the justice estimates and give it to the Minister of Justice right between the eyes? I asked: the minister yesterday in this bon. House about double disbursement sheets and the minister shrugged his shoulders as if he did not know what I was talking about. Well, Sir, I can tell the minister that his collea)!:ue's ner>artment of Consumer Affairs has been down in the minister's office, }!r.

Barter, trying to get the minister's legal counsels down there to move on all these cases that I have in front of me. MR. MURPHY: ~loving very rapidly. HR. NEARY: They are not moving rapidly at all. I can tell the minister whv they are not moving rapidly. ~!R. DOODY: l~y? MR. MURPHY: Name names. MR. NEARY: Yes, name names I will,when I am finished with my remarks on consumer affairs. I am not going to be sidetracked. I will name names and I will guarantee you that I will make the hair on some of the members heads in this House curl up. Twenty per centers!

Twenty per cent finder~ fees, bonuses! !IF!. nannY : Is the hon. member intimating that members of this House are involved? HR. NFARY: I certainly am, Sir, I certainly am. The minister, all he has got to do is dare me and I will just put me to the test. AN HON. MEI'!BER: nare vou? ~111.. NF:ARY: Yes! Well I am coming to it. Do not worry. Mr. Speaker, the government should make a statement before we pass the Interim Supply on its policy concerning a separate Department of Consumer Affairs in this Province. Are we going to have it or are we not? Mr. Speaker, I am not saying whether I am for it or against it.

SOME RON • MEHBF.RS : Oh, oh! MR. NF:ARY: No, I am not. I am not saying that, Sir. 4106

'!arch 30, lCI71\. Tape 1530 RR - 3 HR. NEARY: I might agree with the minister,by beefinr, up the- as a matter of faet, Sir, I tell you if this new Department of Consumer Affairs is goin~ to be as bad as some of the ones we got now I might be inclined to agree with the minister. Yes, Sir, I tell you some of them are pretty bad . The Premier mi~h t be able to sell me on th~ idea of a new Department of Consumer Affairs . But, Sir, the bon . Premie r has made a sta tement on at least three occasions,if not four ,that he is going to reshuffle. There is going to be a mini reshuffle of his Cabinet . I do not know.

I am told the reason he has not done it is because he does not want the minister to be the Minister of Consumer Affairs. !'tiL "'URPRY : fo!ho - me? "ll. nEARY: Now this is the ru1110ur, the reports that are ~oi n$1. around- "'tt' • MURPHY: Is that right? MR . NEA~Y : - that he would have don~ it long ago and he does not want that minister to he Hinister of Consumer Affairs, does not think he is the m.<n to do the 1oh. ~m . DOODY: I guess he is waiting for a man like you. ?-!R. NEARY: Well , Sir, he will be waiting a long time if be is waiting for me. I will wait till things turn around . But, Mr.

Chairman, the people of this Province are entitled to a statemen t of wbat is ~oing to happen . t~a t is going to happen t o the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation? We are told a~ain by the Pr emie r that Rehabilitati on is going back under the Depart ment of Social Services, 4107

Harch 30, 1976 Tape 1531 IB-1 _1'_11, NEARY: orir,inally,the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation. I put the name on it. 'One of the things I did when I found the hon. former Premier in his office.when he was getting ready that night to go out to his tlasonic lodge meeting, one of the things we settled on that night. lffi . SMPLLWOOD: The same time? JIR .• NEARY: The same time. The hon. the Premier might not remember it' but I remember it because it •vas the biggest thing in my life at that time, to bring about these reforms in the Department of Social Services.

The hon. the Premier lmd a lot of other things on his mind, Come By Chance, the Linerboard mill, Churchill Falls. But my little narrow mind - my mind was not broad enough to comprehend all these things. I was trying to do something for the poor old widows,and the cripples,and the orphans,and the sick,and the unemployed of this Province. But anyway ~re did change the name,and now the Premier is talking about putting rehabilitation back under that department. \.Jell,I wish he would make up his mind. Is he going to do it or is he not going to do it,or when is he going to do it?

Has he not got enough manpower over there that he can have a little reshuffle if he wants it? It is time, Sir, for him to make up his mind, and it is also time, ~1r. Chairman, for the Minister of ~Unes and Energy to make his move, to tell us the truth about the tunnel under the Straits of Belle Isle and the transmission line. Last Fall there were no if's, and's and but's. The minister was absolutel y certain, would lay down his life, was satisfied to stand in this House and tell us beyond any doubt that the tunnel underneath the Straits of Belle Isle and the transmission line were going to go ahead this year.

Now in response to questions that I put to the minister over the last couple of weeks all I get is evasive, general answers. The minister, Sir, should stand up in his place in this Rouse, man-fashion, and tell the House and the people of this Province if that project is 4108

}farch 30, 1976 Tape 1531 HR. NEARY: going to go ahead this year. I get the impressions from the answers the minister has been giving me over the last couple of weeks that it is not going to go ahead, and there are members of this hon. House,probably onthat side of the House too, who will say 'hear, hear' to that. The member for St. John's East (Mr. l~rshall) and St. John's North (Mr. Carter) will probably approve of it because they never did agree with it. Mr.

Chairman, in the estimates, page 14 I think it is, in reference to the Churchill Palls development, the $50 million that is supposed to be spent: '1In addition to the financial requirements of the Province,the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation will likely require"- not will require, will likely require. They have got the little key ~ord in there. They have got the out in there- "will likely require approximately $50 million in long-term financing." HR. DOODY: HR. NEARY: They are not going to borrow it if they do not need it. l'fr. Chairman, that is what I am trying to find out.

Are they going to borrow it? Do we need it? Is the project going to go ahead? Or is the government going to weasel its way out of that one, too? }{R. DOOnY: That is not Gull Island, my son. It says so, look - NR. CROSBIE: That is on the Island. }W,. DOODY: That is on the Island, the Hydro bill, Bay D'Espoir and perhaps part of Holyrood. someone to read it for you. Read the speech again or get HR. NEARY: Hell, Sir, I do not need anybody to read it for me . I know what I am talking about. I want the Hinister of Hines and Energy to stand up in this House and tell us - H:P.. CROSiliE : I am going to . ~'!R.

NEARY: If I sit down now will the minister get up and tell us? lT-. CROSBIE: As soon as you sit down,! am shooting up. MR. NEARY: The minister will be shooting up before the next election, 4109 / /

~larch 30, L976 Tape 1531 ~'R . NEARY: I will tell you. Re will be shooting up to St . John's West pretty soon - MR. OOOnY: You are goin& to be shot. ~ . NEARY: - to try to &et a safe berth, to try to get a safe seat - ~m • . ooonY: You do not have to shoot- ~il\ . NEARY: - in Ot ta~o.•a . Hell, Nr . Chairman, the people of this Province are entitled to an ans·.;er . They are down there now, Sir , in Southern La brador in the Straits area, down in my hon . friend ' s IB-3 ~jstrict, the hon.

Leader of the Opposition, ~o.~o asked a couple of questions about it the othe r day. ne keeps trying to cross-examine the l'inister of ~·ines and Energy in between his colleagues jUIIIping up like jack- in­ the-boxes,shooting him down,trying t o get information on the tunnel. So far the hon. Leader of the Opposition has not been able t o get the answers. I have not been able to get the answe r s , nnd I think n011 it is about time. The government have procrnstinated long enough .

The people down on the Great Northern Peninsula and in Southern Labrador, construction work ers all over this Province who are looking forvard to jobs t..oorking 4110

'larch 30, 1976 Tape No, 1532 NM- 1 ~IR. NEARY: on that tunnel and working on the transmission line would like to know now. Their unemployment insurance is runninr out. They are getting desperate. They are going to he forced on welfare and the minister keeps them dangling, suspended in mid-air. Get up, Mr. Chairman, I would say to the hon. minister, in man-fashion and lay lt on the line. Tell us if it is going to go ahead. He was pretty sure last Fall, no ifs, ands and buts, no excuses. I supported it,in case the hon. minister does not remember, ~r. Chairman. I supported it. I was told that I was crazy to do it.

I think it is a great make-work project apart from being beneficial for this Province. TI1e ohvious thing to do, Sir, is to link the Island of Newfoundland up I with the Mainland part of the Province, Labrador. I have said that so I often in this hon. House! I think DJ'.EE should play a bigger role in it. I think there should be a programme put up to Ottawa, Sir, I this government should put a programme before Ottawa, a Northern · Newfoundland-Labrador Programme before Ottawatand make DREE pay the hulk of the cost of the development of the Northern part of this Province and Labrador.

They have it in the l·lestern Provinces, Sir. ~anitoba and 1 Sas~atchewan have northern development programmes. Our crowd here are asleep at the wheel! ~illions and millions of dollars being poured into the Northern part - You are not getting bored are you, Sir? }11'. S'M'ALLWOOn: No, I an not. MR. NEARY: I would not want to put you to sleep. Hill ions and millions of dollars being poured into Northern Manitoba and Northern Saskatchewan and we should have had similar programmes in this Province. MR. DOODY: We will when we get Joe Clarke in. }JR.

NRARY: Oh, when we get Joe Clarke in~ The money is there now on the table, Sir. It is on the table in Ottawa, and we have not had the initiative and the foresight to take advantage of all these programmes. Any my hon. friend the Minister of Industrial Development, 4111

!-larch 30, 1976 Tape No. 1532 N}l - 2 ~ ffi. NEARY: and the }'inister of Fishe;ries,who both spent a considerable period of time in Ottawa,knm ,, what I am talking about. So, ~fr. Speaker, maybe what some of this han. crowd should do is go to Hollywood, Sir. I notice that Richard Little got his own programme. I am sure if he can do' it the Hinister of Finance should be able to do it. They are a great crowd, Sir, great,friendly, sociable, honourable crowd, but sometimes I wonder, Sir, about their competency or ability to govern this Province.

I enjoy their little jokes, little witty remarks, Sir, I enjoy them very much,but I think it is a pretty serious business right now trying to cope with the problems the people are faced \~ith in this Province. So let us hear about Gull Island and the tunnel and the transmission line! No more procrastination, no more beating around the bush! It is cruel to continue to do that, Sir. I \~ant to find out before we pass Interim Supply, I want to find out from the Acting Minister of Public Works and Services just \~hat is going 011 over at Memorial University in connection with the project managers.

Ah,the minister will tell me,but now I am going to try to pry it out of him. He· would not volunteer the information. ~'!P.. ROUSSEAU: I told you - ~~. NEAPY: I have been, Sir, three weeks now- not three weeks~ three years - '"'R. ROUSSEAU: I told you twice in the last ten t'lays. ~. NEARY: The mlnis ter gave me a vague general answer in the last ten days,said oh they have three months. The minister told me,I am expecting a letter.

And they had three months, the government has three months in which to decide ~~ether or not they are going to condone the sale of their contract, the peddling of this contract like you peddle marijuana out on the street. And the minister will answer it now because I am going to provoke him into answering, ' the same as I am going to provoke a few other ministers. 4112

>~arct, 30, 1976 't'ape No. 1532 Nl''- 3 'MR.. NEARY: ~'r. Chairman, let me straighten the Rouse out on a fe~• pieces of rackg round information in connection with the He<tlth Science fomplex and Scrivener and ~r . 'Purdy. Once, Sir, T ~ent to the Pxtent to say that the project manaf,er ov