Volume XL Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 17 23 M ay 1 985

The House met at 3:00 P.M. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to inform the House that approval has been granted to the United Church Regional Council to operate a hostel in the city for people who are homeless. The hostel will accommodate ten to twelve individuals.

It will have a full-time social worker so that not only will accommodations be provided, but also, counselling services, with a view to assisting the individuals to live more independently in the community and avail of the services provided by my department. I wish to express our appreciation to the United Church for their co-operation and effort in developing such a worthwhile service in partnership with the department.

In addition, my colleague responsible for Housing and his officials, are actively involved in the process of securing a facility that will serve as an emergency hostel for people who are homeless and experiencing difficulty in securing adequate accommodations. The facility will be operated by the Salvation Army and would accommodate forty to fifty individuals. We are very appreciative of the . co-operation L812 23 May 1985 Vol XL and support we have received from the Salvation Army in the development of this facility.

The Salvation Army has considerable expertise in the operation of such facilities, as a result of their experience throughout Canada. I anticipate that ·my colleague, the Minister responsible for Housing (Mr. Dinn) and I, will be in a position to make a joint announcement concerning this facility in the near future. It has been decided that in view of the development of these two hostels, the department will defer participation in the residential rehabilitation of boarding homes in the city.

The two hostels referred to earlier should be adequate to respond to the ongoing problem for individuals who are homeless in the city, for the reasonably near future. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): . The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, inj the context of that Ministerial Statement I do not think there is much that can be said in a negative sense. We on this side welcome what the minister has announced today, and what he was supposed to announce yesterday but could not because of the furor. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, the fact that the United Church and the Salvation Army are both interested in and plan to operate these homes is excellent, we believe. However, I am not sure that it is necessary for the minister to defer the plans that apparently his department already had for the residential rehabilitation of homes around the city. No. 17 [UNEDITED] R812

The minister says that what the United Church and the Salvation Army plan to do will be good for the interim, for the short-term. We hope that the deferral that the minister is talking about will, of course, only be for a short time, and that adequate accommodations will continue to be provided, in addition to what the United Church and the Salvation Army plan to do. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. MR. BARRETT: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to announce today that approval has been granted for funding of various tourism-related projects valued in excess of $525,000 under the new $21 million Canada/Newfoundland Tourism Development Subsidiary Agreement. These projects will be covered under the two program elements of Marketing and Incentives as set out in the agreement and represent a considerable effort on behalf of both the federal and provincial government and the private sector to promote and further develop the lucrative tourism industry in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Under the Marketing Program of the agreement a total of $377,000 will be provided for 12 projects. The overall objective of the Marketing Program is to co-ordinate marketing activities in the areas of research, promotion, communications and tour development. Marketing activities are directed to those areas with a high potential for Newfoundland and Labrador and will enable the Province to compete effectively by responding to changing market requirements. These marketing initiatives represent a three-fold increase in L813 23 May 1985 Vol XL the amount of money spent on tourism advertising and promotion.

Some of the major projects will include a co-operative effort between Eastern Provincial Airways and Conquest Tours to promote non-stop flights from Toronto to St. John's every Saturday until September which will call for $150,000 to be funded equally by the provincial and federal government and EPA/Conquest at $50,000 each. A co-operative effort in Atlantic Canada between CN Marine and Budget Rent-A-Car to provide low cost auto packages including ferry passage and accommodations valued at $225,000 in total.

And a further $150,000 will be used to promote bus tours and charter services from the Northeast United States market to Newfoundland. Funds have also been set aside to develop package tours as well as newspaper and radio advertising campaigns in Newfoundland. Under the Incentives Program of the agreement in excess of $148,000 has been allocated for 13 projects.

This funding is being provided in recognition of the need to improve the quality and range of the tourism product being offered by the private sector tourism operators in Newfoundland and Labrador, and the need to upgrade the services associated with that product. Some of the projects approved included a $21,000 grant to Goose Bay Outfitters to assist in the upgrading of fishing camps in Labrador. In excess of $10,000 to the Plum Point Motel for upgrading and some $15,000 for upgrading at Mackinsons Lodge in Clarke's Beach, among many others.

The majority of projects covered under this program will be geared towards the upgrading of existing tourism facilities including No. 17 [UNEDITED] R813

motels, hospitality homes, fishing and hunting camps, and the upgrading of specific attractions. I should also mention that these projects represent only the initial thrust of the Tourism Agreement. The projects also represent additional jobs created both in the construction phase and in the service sector. We fully expect an increased level of tourism activity and development based on the availability of funds under the agreement. And I will undoubtedly have further announcements of funding for tourism-related projects in the near future. They still managed to do real damage to the economy. However, Mr.

Speaker, let us see, as my friends on the other side have been suggesting, let us see the positive side in this, here are some good Liberal federal dollars to give a little shot in the arm to an economy that needs an awfully big shot in the arm. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, this is part of an ongoing policy that we have to keep the House informed of highroad construction and improvement projects. As you will recall on February 26 of this year, I announced early tendering of approximately $11 million in highway improvement and construction projects.

Early tendering has been a philosophy of my department for some years. The Province was near the end of its cost shared agreement with Ottawa and funds remaining were designated to complete . ongoing projects with no funding in place L814 23 May 1985 Vol XL for new ones. Consequently, the provincial government allocated $11 million to carry out the announced projects, and in the p·rocess, help stimulate the vulnerable construction industry. As in other years, Mr. Speaker, this early tendering process .has worked very well.

In mid March, government announced that an extra $13.7 million, under the Road and Bridge Rehabilitation Programme, would be tendered. Under this special programme started last year, government is ensuring that all existing paved roads and bridges in the Province are returned to standard condition. Over the next seven to eight years, we hope to have completed this process for all roads and bridges in the Province. Mr. Speaker, I am extremely pleased to further inform- this hon.

House today that my department is calling tenders for three major road construction projects in this Province totalling approximately $7.6 million. Other tenders will follow in the days ahead. These three major projects, along with other road work to be tendered under the federal-provincial agreement this Summer, will result in capital expenditures of approximately $15 million.

This construction work falls under the recently announced seven year, $180 million agreement between the Province and the Government of Canada, which, as all hon. members realize, is the largest roads agreement ever between the two governments. This agreement confirms a major long term commitment on the part of both governments for improvements to the Trans-Canada Highway and continuation of construction of No. 17 [UNEDITED] R814

the Trans-Labrador Highway between Wabush and Goose Bay. Although this agreement will not formally be signed for a number of days, our governments have agreed to proceed with tendering these projects to take full advantage of our relatively short construction season and to create employment opportunities in the Province. Mr. Speaker, I would just like to very briefly outline the three projects which will be tendered in the next few hours. There will be the recapping of the Trans-Canada Highway from Riverside Drive Intersection to the Corner Brook Stream for an approximate distance of 9.5 kilometers. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. DAWE: Upgrading and paving of the Trans-Canada Highway from Bishop • s Falls West Access to Grand Falls of a distance of approximately 9 kilometers. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DAWE: And the upgrading of the Trans-Canada Highway near Port Blandford from the junction of route 233 to the National Park boundary for a distance of approximately 6.4 kilometers. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: L815 23 May 1985 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, at last at last.

This is what the people of Newfoundland have been waiting for because I believe, Sir, there was some question as to whether or not the Department of Transportation still existed in this Province anymore or not. We have been waiting for the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) to at least make some announcement. He is talking about the repaving. We all have to agree that a lot of our roads in this Province need to be repaved. But there are a lot of people in this Province today, Mr. Speaker, who have not yet had any paving, or any upgrading.

I think of Great Harbour Deep, I think of Burgee, I think of many places in this Province which now will probably never ever be paved. The minister•s statement is extremely presumptuous, Mr. Speaker. They are making plans for the next seven to eight years. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to ask for silence. I have the microphone. When other members are speaking I do not shout across. There was a time, Mr. Speaker, when I might have done that, but when I was a child I spake as a child and I thought as a child, but when - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR.

DECKER: I became a man, I put away childish things. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DECKER : No. 17 [UNEDITED] R815

~ I am pleased, Mr. Speaker, to see that the hide and seek days of the Department of Transportation are passed. The peek-a-boo campaign is over, and now we are beginning to see released, albeit, one measly little step at a time, the department is gradually beginning to release some of the things that they will do. And I am extremely pleased to do that. ., I wonder though about the third announcement of this big roads agreement. First, it was a press announcement. When the minister was down from Ottawa- AN HON. MEMBER: A press conference. MR. DECKER: A press conference. Thank you.

Then it was announced by the Premier in this hen. House that this agreement was about to be signed. Now I learn that it still has not been formally signed, but no doubt in a matter of a few days, Mr. Speaker, it is going to be signed. I am longing - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DECKER: to hear the ministerial statement which says, it has now been signed. A fait accompli. It is done. When, Mr. Speaker? When will this agreement be signed? Someone is soon going to have to sign this thing, because all those contracts are being called, Mr. Speaker, and the agreement is still not signed. Well how much longer?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. DECKER: L816 23 May 1985 Vol XL And again, Mr. Speaker, in the spirit of fair play, which was so gallantly expressed a few days ago, we have three projects announced, two ·I am told are in Tory districts and one is in a Liberal district, I believe. Am I right? AN HON. MEMBER: No, no. MR. DECKER: All three Tories. AN HON. MEMBER: Never, never! MR. DECKER: Guys , how can I you do not give you are going districts. be positive, if me· a to do chance, if all Tory A few days ago it was said in this House that the worst

section of the Trans-Canada Highway is between Gander and Glenwood. AN HON. MEMBER: The Minister of Transportation, that is right. MR. DECKER: Is it being done on need, Mr. Speaker, or is it not? Of course, you have to say something positive and if someone can find something positive in this statement, then you can put me down as supporting it, Mr. Speaker. I will support everything that is positive. I find it extremely difficult to find something positive in this statement, Sir. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order'· please ! No. 17 [UNEDITED] R816

I would delegation like to welcome a from the town of Victoria, Carbonear Deputy Mayor, Fred councillors Harold Ross Cole. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! with their Baldwin and Priddle and Oral Questions MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: early. I think the question will be more appropriately asked after the royal commission has had an opportunity to have public hearings all over the Province, then we will have a good assessment as to whether in fact the royal commission was an effective instrument to get people involved and how we could create more jobs or whether it is not.

So I think it is a bit early, a bit premature to condemn the commission at this point in time. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier why did they call a Royal Commission on Unemployment and nobody came?

I would like to ask the Premier whether he feels that the credibility of his administration and of the royal commission has been enhanced by the meetings on the South Coast where nobody showed up for some of the meetings, others had to be terminated early, and rarely has been the instance where any of the 60,000 unemployed in this Province have come out? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I think it is a bit early to judge the effectiveness of the royal commission that has been established to look at employment and unemployment and various educational programmes presently in existence in the Province. I think it is a way too L817 23 May 1985 Vol XL The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. I would like to ask the Premier, since the Chairman of the Commission has stated publicly that many people are intimidated by the name Royal Commission, has he thought of calling it something else, like a waste of time and money? SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not think that really deserves a substantive answer, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Leader No. 17 [UNEDITED] of the R817

Well, then, J'!r. Speaker, would the Premier indicate whether he feels that it is justified to spend the $500 to $750 a day to the five Commission members to have them tour the shipyard at Marystown because nobody showed up for their scheduled hearing the previous day? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: ·Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it is worthwhile for a Royal Commission charged with the responsibilities that this Royal Commission is, to survey and visit various employment opportunity developments around the Province like the Marystown Shipyard.

I do not see anything wrong with that at all. As it relates to the amount they are getting paid, I think the hen. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) would know from his experience of getting paid on various things over the last couple of years, from the Labour Relations Board to other work that he has done, that the amount that is being paid to these various Commissioners, which varies, by the way, depending upon whether you are chairman or vice-chairman or a member of the Commission, that they are in line with the payment that is being paid to other inquiries and Royal Commissions, very much in line.

And I am sure the hen. the Leader of the Opposition, as a member of the legal profession, will readily admit that from time to time when lawyers get work around this Province, that there fee charged by all is a certain of them for various work they do, which becomes a standard for everybody and, you know, they are getting paid in the same way • • L818 23 May 1985 . Vol XL MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: the Mr. Speaker, this is another question rather than a supplementary.

The Premier is absolutely right, the $750 a day would not come close ·to covering the legal fees that would be . involved in a day's work, that is a function of either supply and demand or the quality of the service that is provided, I ~ not sure which. But, Mr. Speaker, what we have in the case of the Commission on Unemployment, of course, is a boycott by the unemployed, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: By those in demand. MR. BARRY: Yes, it is a boycott by the individuals who are supposed to be helped by this Royal Commission. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we are prepared to co-operate with the Royal Commission on Unemployment AN BON. MEMBER: Is there a question here, Mr. Speaker? MR. BARRY: I would think that a reasonable

preamble is necessary. Mr. Speaker, I suspect it is because the unemployed in this Province see that the Premier is not approaching the creation of permanent jobs in any realistic fashion and that is why they are boycotting the Royal Commission on Unemployment. I would like, with respect to the No. 17 [UNEDITED] R818

creation of permanent jobs, to ask the Premier whether he has had a:q. opportunity to consider the bids that have been put in by various companies to Petro Canada and whether the provincial government is going to ta ke a position in favour of those bids that will see a reactivation of the Come By Chance refinery, the bids that will see permanent long-term jobs in this Province? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I note with a great deal of interest the way the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) gets up to ask another question.

First of all, he says it is not a supplementary, so therefore, it has nothing to do with the previous subject matter, which was the Royal Commission, and then he goes ahead and commments at length on the Royal Commission again, and then he asks a question about bids in Come By Chance. I do not know, Mr. Speaker, whether the rules of the House are - in any case, just let me say, I also note with a great deal of interest the way he tried to respond to the comments that I made as it related to how much lawyers were getting paid in the Province.

It is now all a question of supply and demand, it is all a question of quality. Is the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) saying that Dr. Douglas House is not a very qualified Chairman of a Royal Commission in Newfoundland, that Dr. Linda Inkpen is not a qualified - I mean, the implication is there that the Leader of the Opposition is saying that in things that he has been involved in has been supply and demand and quality, and by implication that the people on L819 23 May 1985 Vol XL the Royal Commission are somehow not as well qualified as he is.

Well, the people of Newfoundland knew how qualified the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) was, because that is where they placed him after the last provincial election. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: The people of Newfoundland did not think that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) was qualified to be Premier of this Province, Mr. Speaker. Talk about people coming out to the Royal Commission, quite a few people came out in the last election, Mr. Speaker, and spoke very loudly and clearly about the Leader of the Opposition and his party. Now, Mr.

Speaker, talking about employment it is really appropriate that the Leader of the Opposition should bring up the whole question about the Come By Chance refinery, the Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment and this whole issue today because today two ministers stood in their place, in Ministerial Statements, one, the Minister of Development and Tourism (Mr. Barrett) concerning incentives for the tourist industry to create permanent jobs in the Province and the other one by the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) when he got in his place and announced three tenders being called as part of the $181 million roads programme for the next seven years. Now, Mr. Speaker, to me, just in the last five or ten minutes, that is performance on what we are trying to do to create jobs in this Province. No. 17 [UNEDITED] R819

MR. BARRY: "" Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the Premier totally ignored my question with respect to the Come By Chance refinery and whether the Premier intends to support the three out of the five bids, the best bidder there that is likely to see the reactivation of the refinery as opposed to the two bidd.ers that are proposing to dismantle the refinery. Would the Premier indicate is the government of this Province going to come down on· the side of reactivation as opposed to dismantling? The Premier took the opportunity to refer to Dr.

Douglas House, the Chairman of the Royal Commission on Unemployment. He is a great Newfoundlander, an excellent academic, Mr. Speaker, I am not sure he is a very good reviewer of books, I am not sure he is a very good reviewer of Newfoundland literature. I notice that he was high in his praise of the Premier's recent literary effort _and I wonder if that had anything to do with his appointment, the fact that Dr. House was prepared to go on the back of the Premier's book and testify that it was great reading. Now, I have to confess that I have great respect for Dr.

House in his particular field but literary criticism is not his forte, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Order, please! MR. BARRY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I wonder would the hon. the Leader • L820 23 May 1985 Vol XL of the Opposition like to ask his supplementary? The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate that invitation, Mr. Speaker. My supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, is, is the Premier going to answer my first question, and, secondly, will the Premier take and accept responsibility for influencing Petro Canada in its approach to these bids with respect to the Come By Chance refinery? Will the Premier together with his good friends in Ottawa tell Petro Canada which of these bids are of most interest and of most benefit to this Province and will he come down on the side of reactivation of the Come By Chance refinery? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.Speaker, if the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, like many, many other Newfoundlanders and Canadians, had to read my book he would know the answer to that question. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Menihek. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. No. 17 [UNEDITED) R820

MR. SPEAKER: I have recognized the hen. the member for Menihek but if he does not mind just waiting for a final supplementary, fine. MR. FENWICK: No, I am sorry I am not going to yield. He had five supplementaries already. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARR Y: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hen. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I know how easy it is, Mr.

Speaker, for all involved in the House of Assembly to become wrapped up whenever the Opposition starts coming too close to the nerve of members opposite and starts getting into areas .that are too sensitive, but, Mr. Speaker, there is, I th ink, an accepted procedure in the course of Question Period. I think it is normally accepted that a member does get a couple of supplementaries, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to have the opportunity and the benefit of completing my series of questions with respect to the Come By Chance refinery which is a matter of some significance to many Newfoundlanders.

PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of order the hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: L821 23 May 1985 Vol XL The hen. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) has had an opportunity in this House in the last ten minutes or so to ask a number of questions and supplementaries, and then he started on a new series of questions. And, Mr. Speaker, we have the member for Menihek (Mr.

Fenwick) there who has been trying to get the eye of Your Honour for some time and who, no doubt, wishes to ask a few questions of the ministry, as well as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry). The Leader of the Opposition cannot carry this House on his back. There are rules that have to be followed and I would refer the Leader of the Opposition to page 11 in the Standing Orders. Standing Order 3l(b), "In the discretion of Mr. Speaker, a reasonable number of supplementary questions arising out of a minister's reply to an Oral Question may be asked by any members," so it is up to the discretion of the Speaker.

The Speaker has by acknowledging the presence of the member for Menihek for a question, when he stood in his place, has therefore, in his discretion,.indicated to the Leader of the Opposition that he has had enough supplementarie~ and that he wishes to hear from another member for a question. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order. I have recognized the hen. member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick). I have not intention, whatever, of trying to restrict any member. I asked the hon. member for Menihek, when I had recognized him, if he would yield.

So the best I can do now is when the hen. member for Menihek has asked his question I would be more than pleased to recognize the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry). No. 17 [UNEDITED] R821

The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Development (Mr. Barrett). Over the last week or so we have heard the •announcement of two new officers being appointed to his department, two industrial development officers, namely Joe Goudie and John McLennon. My question to the Minister of Development is, would he assure us that these are not just pork barrel appointments on the part of his government and t?at indeed there is work there for them and positions that they will be fulfilling and doing a useful job for the government? MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. Minister of Development. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the member was given the opportunity to ask such an important question. I think that it is very appropriate that this government has recognized the particular need to provide people of quality and of great understanding and sensitivity i~ areas of this Province which requires a great deal of special attention.

This government has gone on record for quite some time that it has desired to put in place in Buchans and in the Labrador area people who have specific responsibilites and specific talents to advise government with respect to some of the concerns and problems that exist in those areas. So I would like to acknowledge, Mr. Speaker, with a great deal of pleasure, that we have been able to enlist the services of such fine people to perform this task for us. L822 23 May 1985 Vol XL SO¥E HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Menihek MR.

FENWICK: Quite frankly I have no doubt whatsoever that those two areas do need a considerable amount of attention but that is not really the direction that I would like to enquire on. I have just recently checked with the Public Service Commission and they assure me, at this point, there are no positions in those particular locations.

So what I was trying to ask the minister was, was this an appointment as a port barrel appointment, which it certainly seems like, since there has been no clearly defined need for these people in either of those areas in accordance with the requirements that are usually put forward in order to do it?

And the other part of the question I would like to ask, because I have not been able to get an answer from his department today, is that I understand it they are both classified as Industrial Development Officers and since there is a lot of variety in those particular positions, going from Industrial Development Officer 1 at $19,000 to $22,000 a year up to Industrial Development Officer 5 from $40,000 to $51,000 a year, I would like the minister to tell me, first of all, why nothing was put through the Public Service Commission in terms of a public advertisement for the job and a competition for it?

And, secondly, would he give me some indication of how much the government is now forking over for what may or may not be necessary positions? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): • No. 17 · [UNEDITED] R822

The hon. Development. MR. BARRETT: the Minister of Mr. Speaker, it has never been the role or responsibility and I think we would be very concerned if this government allowed itself to be dictated by the Public Service Commission as to which jobs and which positions it should have to carry out its responsibilities. It was not felt that these two specific positions should be filled in that particular perspective. What was felt was that these were two special needs that had a possible limited time frame in which the work necessary to perform these responsibilities could carry out.

If one goes to the Public Service Commission it becomes a permanent position which must be carried on even though there might or might not be a necessity to carry on with the position in that particular region. We had the sensitivity of two specific regions of the Province which we have a great deal of interest in, and a great deal of interest in trying to help and preserve and I would like to suggest, ·Mr.

Speaker, that it was in that issue and that concerns that we had that we addressed this particular position and that we in fact created these positions on a contractual basis and· therefore government had the options to either create permanent positions but it would be done at its discretion, not at the discretion of the Public Service Commission, and certainly not at the discretion of the member for Menihek. With respect to the salary or the remuneration package responsible to these positions I will confirm L823 23 May 1985 Vol XL that it is between one and four but it is not either. MR.

FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, now that the minister has confirmed that the Department of Development is now serving the same function in our system as the Senate is for the federal government, I would like to ask him if he has any plans now to set up additional positions in - well say the district of St. Barbe, perhaps a couple on the South Coast, in Fortune-Hermitage, and Burgeo, how about in Twillingate or Bonavista North, or in Gander or in Stephenville?

In other words, Sir, can you assure us at this time that you are not continuing to pad the Civil Service with all kinds of defeated Tory candidates in the next little while? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I think it will be the decision of this department and this government as to what position it intends to fill in any sector of this Province in the future and if my department so wishes then the member will receive the information as he did on this particular appointment. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage. No. 17 [UNEDITED] R823

MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is for the Premier. It is on the same subject. Specifically and simply put, do these appointees have to do anything to receive their salaries? And I ask that having in mind, the Premier will know the case I am talking about, that there is another incident, another instance I ought to say, of a former Tory MBA who for an extended period of time, going into a number of years, received a stipend and did absolutely nothing for it. And that is not a matter of my opinion, that was the terms of reference of his appointment, that he was to do nothing.

Now I ask the Premier, in all seriousness, - AN HON. MEMBER: Who was it? MR. SIMMONS: No, the Premier know who I am talking about and I do not think, Mr. Speaker, it is needful - I can give the Premier the name privately, but I do not think it is needful to bring that person' s name into play here now. The person is no ·longer on the payroll of the government to my understanding so I do not think it is fair to raise his name, but I am prepared to give it to the Premier privately.

But I say to him since these two names are on the public record, and since the minister put them on the public record, do they in all seriousness, do they have to do anything to receive this stipend, do they have to do anything, and if so what is it they have to do and what are their credentials which entitl them to perform these functions? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. L824 23 May 1985 Vol XL PREMIER PECKFORD: ~ Mr. Speaker, in both cases that the member for Menihek (Mr.

Fenwick) brought up we had a request at a number of meetings over the last six months or so with the Buchans Action Committee, and a number of things arose out of that Buchans Action Committee. One was a request to ensure that either the hospital remained open or it got converted to a nursing home care institution. And we have - implemented that recommendation from the Buchans Action Committee.

They also indicated that they would like to move in the way of a development corporation and they had meetings with the Resource Policy Committee of Cabinet, and meetings with me, and they amended that recommendation because we had indicated to them that very often a development corporation does not seem to be the way to go, that we were in the process of regionalizing the Department of Development, and that we would be more inclined to approach the situation by giving the Buchans Action Committee for a period of time a development officer who could assist them in meeting with the various governments and so on.

In the case of Mr. McLennan, he has been appointed by the Minister of Development (Mr. Barrett) to be the Development Officer from the Department of Development to co-ordinate the activities of the Action Committee, the town council, and the other people in Buchans as they pursue, through the provincial government and through the federal government, the various programmes to assist Buchans in sustaining its life, and enhancing its life. I think Mr. McLennan, being a former businessman in the area, being a former member in the area who .. No. 17 [UNEDITED] R824

helped that Action Committee a fair amount over the last three or four year, and who is familiar with government, is in an excellent position to assist the Action Committee. That is the position there. As it relates to the Happy Valley Goose Bay situation, when we started to regionalize the Department of Development we, first of all, after we established the new department, established an office in Corner Brook and in Gander, because the Gander Development Corporation was phased out from provincial involvement, anyway, and we also established an office in Labrador West.

Now, if you look at what is going to happen in Happy Valley - Goose Bay over the next while, and they had been upset that they did not get a regional office at that point in time, if you look at Mr. Goudie's credentials and his familiarity with Happy Valley Goose Bay - North West River, the whole Lake Mel ville area, then I think one would have to conclude that he would provide a very valuable service there. So they are development officers, one, community specific to Buchans, the other one area specific to Labrador East.

That development officer is going to be reporting to a director, to an assistant deputy minister, who reports to the minister, to carry out and to assist all the local groups in the Lake Melville Labrador East area, in bringing forward programmes and activities to create jobs and to do what all development officers do for the Department of Development. So both of them will have specific job classifications and reporting procedures to follow in the same L825 23 May 1985 Vol XL way as the exisi ting development officers do, who are already employed by the department. MR. SIMMONS: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I thank the Premier for confirming that these two guys are supposed to do something. I construed from the sobriety of his answer that he knew all too well of the other case to which I alluded. I want to go back to the Minsi ter of Development (Mr. Barrett), because, in fairness perhaps, the question is better put to him than the Premier, he perhaps having a more direct knowledge of the cases we are discussing. Could the minister indicate to the House what particular credentials Mr.

McLennon has for this particular job - a fair question - and whether) in particular, in light of what the Premier has said about the Buchans Action Committee's desires to have some assistance on this matter, is it not true that the Buchans group were not consulted on this appointment at all, it was dropped on them, they were informed that this was the man they were going to work with whether they liked it or lumped it, that in no way did they have an opportunity to have any say or give any input to the minister on the issue?

To the first part of my question, since I raised some heckles, the credentials question here, Mr. Speaker, is very important. I do not argue the fact that these guys No. 17 [UNEDITED] R825

are Tories, that is a credential, given that the Tory government is in power. We are all used to patronage. SOME HON. MEMBERS: You can say that again. MR. CALLAN: Especially you with the student Summer jobs. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a patronage system requires, in addition to having the right party label, that you have some other credentials of competence to do the job. And in view of Mr. McLennon' s well-known business success, or lack thereof, we seriously ask the minister what in the name pf goodness can he bring to this particular job other than fill a patronage appointment?

Why does not the minister and the Premier come clean with the House and say they have just taken a page out of Governor Mulroney's book. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: He is giving a patronage appointment every three hours - MR. W. CARTER: Now you are hitting the dirt. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Every three hours he has given out a patronage appointment in Ottawa, since they have been appointed. L826 23 May 1985 Vol XL PREMIER PECKFORD: ~ On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier, on a point of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, Mr. Speaker, there have been a number of questions on this subject. As I understand the Standing Orders, supplementaries have to be very brief, and have very little

preamble, and the hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) is going on on a supplementary. I recognize that he does know a lot about patronage, because his former leader in Ottawa, just before he got out, did a fair job on that, did he not? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I can understand, Mr. Speaker, the Premier said 'sensitivity'. Apparently, we are seeing a few dark stains on the underbelly of Mr. Clean. Now, what we are talking about, Mr.

Speaker, is whether or not we have now a new era of patronage on which we are embarking, consistent with the approach taken by the Prime Minister? Or, Mr. Speaker, is there some special qualification that these gentlemen, who have recently been rejected by the electorate, have to bring to their positions? That was the member's question, and it is a question that the Premier should answer. MR. SPEAKER: • No. 17 [UNEDITED] R826

Order, please! To that point of order, there should be no need in a supplementary question to have a long

preamble, and I was just about to draw the hon. member's attention to that fact. I would ask him if he could put his supplementary directly now. MR. SIMMONS: I would be glad to, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. My question to the Minister of Development is whether the overriding consideration here in making these appointments, where the credentials of the individuals involved are credentials in terms of the jobs at hand, or whether or not it is just not part of an unfolding patronage scheme, practiced at will in Ottawa - they have made a patronage appointment every three hours since they took office last September.

Is this what we are seeing here, or can I invite the minister to get up and assure us that these appointments were made on their merits and, in particular, in lightness as to what their merits are insofar as Mr. McConnell is concerned? MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to acknowledge that the reason the appoints were made was to fulfil a specific need in the areas which we have addressed. I have already answered that question, I think, quite adequately.

With respect to the of the individuals have absolutely no them, and they responsibility, so I make them if I so are both arrangements, as L827 23 May 1985 qualifications concerned, I problem with are my guess I will choose. They contractual I have also Vol XL indicated to- this House. They are not permanent positions. We feel it is a specific job to be done and, to the best of my ability, I have selected two individuals who I think can perform those jobs adequately. MR. FLIGHT : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: the Mr.

Speaker, I want to address my supplementary to the Premier because he is aware of the situation in Buchans as it unfolded over the years. Would the Premier confirm to this Bouse of Assembly that the first request from the town of Buchans for an industrial relations officer came in 1976 through the Buchans Task Force report and that every year since 1976, the Buchans Action Committee have been requesting an industrial relations officer? Would the Premier confirm that that is a fact? And then, in confirming that, would he indicate why it is taking so long?

Is it a fact that there was nobody around with the kinds of qualifications required until Mr. McLennan got defeated on April 2, 1985 in Buchans? Why, after ten years, did we have to wait for a defeated Tory to take that position? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, the recommendations from the Action Committee in the Council has changed over the years. It was an industrial relations officer, it was a development corporation. In the last year or two, the Action Committee was No. 17 [UNEDITED] R827

moving towards - and put it in writing to me and to the various ministers - establishing a development corporation. That has been their most current request. We had long meetings with them over that and we had indicated to them, because of the new Department of Development, because we were trying to regionalize and because there are a lot of programmes now under the Department of Development, they would be better served by having a development officer attached to the Department of Development available to them on a day to day basis in Buchans over the next year or so to see what they can put together.

So, to answer the hon. member's question, there have been various recommendations coming from Buchans and the Buchans Action Committee, some for an industrial relations officer, some recommendations for a development corporation, some for a development officer. They have not been consistent in the sense that: _it has always been the same thing. But they did, in the last several months, indicate their desire to have a development officer.

I indicated to them in writing that we were prepared to provide a development officer to them and now we have kept our commitment to the Action Committee and the people of Buchans in providing them with a development officer whom they know, who has been in the area over the last three years and who has co-operated with them on many, many occasions. MR. FLIGHT: What was their reaction to the appointment? PREMIER PECKFORD: Go ask them. The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans should know L828 23 May 1985 Vol XL that better than I.

All I know is that we promised the people of Buchans and the Action Committee and the Town Council that we would provide them with a development officer to assist them in preparing briefs in seeing what could be done for the future of Buchans. That we have done. That we are very proud of, Mr. Speaker. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

At this stage I would like to welcome to the galleries a group of students from the schools at South Brook and Little Bay/Green Bay, accompanied by their teachers and chaperons, principals Edward Pitts and Jim Starkes. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Bear, hear! Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I have an answer to a question asked by the hon. the member for Twillingate (Mr. w. No. 17 [UNEDITED] R828

Carter), the question was; the number of vacant houses owned by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation in the St. John's area? And the St. John's Metropolitan area? The answer is; ten. The dates on which these houses have become vacant? They are listed in the answer, most of them September 1984, on six of them; seven - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. DINN: The appraised value of these houses, the total appraised value of these houses $173,900. The outstanding liabilities on each house? The answer is, none. And, Mr.

Speaker, these houses which were bought by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation six of those houses will be used for infill, they have already been assessed and will be going to contract or tender on them. TWo houses are not suitable for infilling, so they will be sold or torn down or whatever. There is one under consideration for refurbishing. Mr. Speaker, I would like to table these answers for the benefit of the hon. members. Petitions MR. FENWICK: Mr. ·Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I essentially two rise to petitions L829 23 May 1985 present but I -Vol XL think I will concentrate on one because I think it is the one that is more appropriate. The prayer of the petition is, nwe, the undersigned, fully support the endeavours of parents to have their children enrolled in French Immersion programmes.

We urge you to take whatever action possible to ensure that this programme is available to all people ~ who wish to avail of it and that arbitrary criteria for acceptance be eliminated through the process of accepting all children.' I am not sure of the exact names or number of signatures but I am sure that they can be counted. Mr. Speaker, in supporting this petition I think I am in probably a unique position in the sense that of my six children, five of them have been enrolled in French Immersion programmes, the oldest for the last ten years n.ow.

And I am in an immediate position to be able to verify or testify - it sounds like a revival meeting or, at least, to witness - that sounds even worse - to, at least, say something about how valuable I think those programmes are and why I feel that whatever kind of action can possibly be taken on behalf of these parents be taken right now. One of the problems that I had was that two years prior to the French Immersion programme starting my oldest daughter started school and unfortunately has not been able to take advantage of the immersion programme.

For those of you who are historically orientated, the first French Immersion programme in the Province, I believe, was .established in Cape St. George at Notre Dame de Cape Central High School in the Port au Port No. 17 [UNEDITED] R829

district in which I lived at the time. It was, in my opinion, a very fortunate occurrence primarily because we did have one of the largest concentrations of francophones in the Province at the time. Both my wife and I felt that it .was probably one of the most fortunate things that could happen that we -were able to get our children educated in French so that they would become functionally bilingual. I would like to tell the House now that that has occurred, that they are functionally bilingual.

They are at a point now where they have a considerable edge in seeking employment in something like 500,000 present federal positions within the civil service. I think that most parents, when they see the kind of advantages this programmes would bring, are very much concerned that they can give this kind of an advantage to their children. I can also say to_ you that the experience that we have had with our children is that they have not suffered at all in terms of their English education.

They have been able to keep their marks up in the English language courses that were introduced after the third or fourth year to the point that they have been able to extremely well in both both written and spoken. function languages I am fortunate now to represent a district that probably has the second largest concentration of francophones and I am not entirely sure why this continues to occur to me. In Labrador West we have, I think, something in the neighbourhood of 800 francophones.

These are essentially the pioneers of Labrador West, people who L830 23 May 1985 Vol XL originally who still came from Quebec and speak the French language to a large extent, and quite frankly, are every bit as much now loyal Newfoundlanders and ­ Labradorians as anyone else in the Province. They themselves actually have a French high school up in Labrador West and I am looking forward, this Fall, to bringing one of my children up to Labrador West to enroll in the French high school because I feel that that would be a nice rounding off to his education prior to going to post-secondary education.

I would like to say that I endorse the petition which I think is an important one. I would like to urge the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) , who I know has taken a lot of time dealing with this particular issue and I hope he responds to it, to - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. FENWICK: I have three real signatures on the front. Do not worry. I would hope that the Minister of Education could respond to the petition, and let us know what is being done now that we know that discrimination did occur there, in terms of meeting the real problem. There are a large number of children in the St.

John's area, as I understand, whose parents are quite eager to have go into this programme. I think it is an important programme and I think we should be doing everything we possibly can in order to make it go. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. No. 17 [UNEDITED] R830

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: I would like to thank the hon. member for bringing the petition to the House of Assembly. I have discussed the problem with the parents concerned and with other representatives of the parent's group. The issues mentioned in the prayer of the petition, the concerns mentioned, they are certainly well in hand. Since coming into the department we have met with all the various agencies involved. We realize the interest that is there in French Immersion, in fact, the programme has drawn significantly. We now have in St.

John's a number of schools who are French Immersion·classes, in fact, in St. John's alone in the RC Board, we have 436 students in French Immersion; in the Intergrated Board we have 376. That is a total of 812. We have twenty-seven classes in French Immersion and twenty-nine French Immersion teachers.

So since the advent of the programme just a few short years ago -it has grown in leaps and bounds, perhaps it has grown so fast that it is relatively hard for the boards to keep up with the demand in relation to space and teacher allocation, etc. especially when they have to apply for funding separately to start up new class. Right now in St. ·John's we have twenty-three students who, at present, are not yet placed for September in the French Immersion classes. That problem is presently being addressed. We are receiving very, very positive feedback from the various agencies involved.

And now that we have gotten all the groups together to L831 23 May 1985 Vol XL work on the problem instead of working in different directions, I think, perhaps, that positive solutions can be found. So once again, as I said, I would like to thank the hon. member for bringing it to the House. I assure him and the people who signed the petition that we appreciate the concerns. We agree that French Immersion is very, very important as - if French, generally, in our schools. I would like to add to that perhaps, Mr.

Speaker, that not only are we looking at the French Immersion problem as it presently exists in relation to some people not being able to get in but we are addressing French in our schools generally by setting up a committee that will investigate the whole French input in the whole educational system so that we will end up, undoubtedly, with a beefed up core that will help other students, not only those in French Immersion. So the situation, as I mentioned, is well in hand and all agencies involved are now working together to come up with, what we hope will be, a very positive and practical solution. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicho las): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak in support of this petition. I am not satisfied with the position that we are hearing from the minister. I heard him on the No. 17 [UNEDITED] R831

radio this morning and it would seem that from the minister's perspective all is well. Now I have to tell the minister all is not well. I have a petition that I will present in a minute which, I believe, is on a similar line to the one just presented.. I wonder if I could have a copy of that one that was just presented so I could see it, please. AN BON. MEMBER: It was a copy. MR. BARRY: It was a copy, I have a copy as well which I will deal with in a moment after this one.

We have some original signatures on it to . comply technically because people, when they prepare petitions, are not familiar with the technicalities of the House. I see some of the names are similar, I have some additional-names. Mr. Speaker, what the minister is going to have to tell this Province is he satisfied with the fact that apparently members of the public, parents of students, were given reasons by school boards that were not accurate as to why their children could not be admitted in the French Immersion courses.

Perhaps he can do it on my petition seeing that he has slip slided that question on the petition of the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick). Is the minister satisfied or is it not a fact that there should be an investigation of what has gone on where parents are saying they were given reasons of overcrowding, they were given reasons of being in the wrong area, they were given every reason.

But what has apparently been now established as the correct or actual reason namely that the child was either not of a recognized or professed L832 23 May 1985 Vol XL denomination, had not taken a position with respect to what denomination it was adopting or, Mr. Speaker, because it was of a different denomination. Now I do not think it took any great legal knowledge, Mr.

Speaker, to establish that for a school board to say that it was going to discriminate against pupils on the denomination of the pupil when it came to whether or not there was going to be room for that pupil who was going to be in the classes of that school board system that they were going to decide on the basis of religion as to whether or not that pupil was going to have the advantage of a French Immersion course. There is something rotten, Mr. Speaker, there is something smelling in that type of situation to develop.

And the minister is going to have to stand up in this House and tell members of this House what he intends to do about that. Is that sort of thing happening in other areas of our school system today? We now have an example of one privilege which is being denied, children, in our schools, on the basis of denomination. Is that same sort of thing happening in other areas? Now, also, Mr.

Speaker, the minister is going to have to inform this House whether he is prepared to support the provision of additional classrooms, additional teaching facilities for the apparent excess numbers of students who want to go into French Emersion Mr. Speaker, the indicate whether any problem with appears to be a English classroom classes. Also, minister should in fact he sees respect to what shift from the to the French Emersion classroom and what is the impact of this on the teachers that we have in the Province No. 17 [UNEDITED] R832

because I understand there are school systems - and the member for Menihek, I think, has probably the most obvious situation in Labrador City and Wabush but it is occurring in other parts of the Province as well - that because we have so many people seeking to get into French Emersion classes we are having teachers who are Anglophone, English speaking teachers, becoming redundant. They are becoming redundant, Mr. Speaker, because they do not have the qualifications and the training to teach in the French Emersion course.

So we have a problem right now in terms of the qualification of teachers which the minister is going to have to deal with. All of this stems from the same issue and I have never heard such a wishy-washy response in all my life to a petition · of such an ignoring of these basic issues and the minister is going to have to do better than that before his estimates are passed in this House. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave present a petition signed twenty-eight residents Durrell.

The prayer of petition is as follows: •we, undersigned, petition to by of the the the provincial government for the installation of water and sewer on Farmers Arm Road. In addition to already committed funding for 1985 we request that additional funding be allocated so as such services can be installed to the end of that road. • L833 23 May 1985 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, this problem is common in the district of Twillingate.

A great many communities in the district do not have water and sewer services and of course, Durrell, which is one of the largest communi ties in the district, or at least a community that is making a very substantial contribution to the economy of the area and indeed to Newfoundland, is without adequate water and sewer facilities. In fact, Mr. - Speaker, Durrell accounts for the landing of approximately 4 million pounds of fish a year and that fish is sold to the Twillingate fish plant.

Four million pounds of fish would account for a half a million dollars a year being paid to people in direct wages not to mention the benefits that accrue to the fishermen that serve on that boat. Mr.

Speaker, I make that point because I think it is important that a community like Durrell, like other places in the Twillingate district, and, in fact, I suppose all over Newfoundland, that are making a very worthwhile contribution to the social and economic life of the Province it is rather sad that these communities should be without what is looked upon by most people in this century, this day and age, as being an ess~ntial service. I support the petition, Mr. Speaker, and I ask the government give some very serious consideration. There is an added feature, Mr.

Speaker, to this petition in that the road in question is one that leads to and passes the Marine Service Center in Durrell. It is rather strange that a facility built by the federal government with some provincial funding would be built there at a cost, I No. 17 [UNEDITED] R833

suppose, of $3 million million without putting and sewer facilities. or $4 in water I am told that the only source of water now in the Marine Service Center is salt water. That is not adequate as we all know. So what the people are asking, Mr. Speaker, is that if and when an agreement is made between the federal and provincial governments to install water and sewer facilities to the Marine Service Center, as indeed it will, I .hope, as indeed it should be, then they are asking that the houses on that road where the water and sewer will go be connected up. They are not asking too much, Mr.

Speaker, in light of the situation and inconvenience, indeed the hazards, to the health and safety of those people. I request that this petition, Mr. Speaker, be tabled and passed on to the department to which it relates. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I rise to have a word or two about this petition that was presented by the hon. member. I guess we can all, Mr.

Speaker, easily identify with the request that is being made by the twenty-eight residents of Farmers Arm with respect to water and sewer services because as the hon. gentleman is probably already aware each year we have quite a number of requests that come in from various communities all around the Province looking for water and sewer services. I do not imagine anybody, Mr. Speaker, woulq disagree that there is quite L834 23 May 1985 Vol XL an amount of money needed to address all the requests that we get on an annual basis in my department for water and sewer services and also for road paving projects. .

Now to give the hon. member some indication of the number of requests that we do get on an annual basis for this type of service, this year alone and last year my department received requests in the neighbourhood of $160 million for water and sewer services and road improvements as well. As the hon. member is also probably aware last year we had a capital programme of $25 million to $30 million to try to address these requests.

So that should give them some indication of the problems that we do have in trying to address every single request that we get from municipalities around the Province for water and sewer services. However, Mr. Speaker, we will take this petition and I will have a look at it, pass it on to my officials to see if anYthing can be done in this regard. I do not know if these people have an application in this year for water and sewer services but in any event we have not dealt with our ·capital programme for this year, Mr. Speaker, and I will certainly have a look at the request and see what can be done. MR.

CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak in support of the petition so ably presented by my colleague for the district of Twillingate (Mr. w. Carter) • Mr. Speaker, as I have No. 17 [UNEDITED] R834

said in the past in this House of Assembly when anybody presents a petition in this House pertaining to roads, road improvements, pavement and also in connection with the need for water and sewer projects I am tempted on each occasion, Mr. Speaker, to stand and support the petitioners because, Mr. Speaker - now I do not always do it, I am always tempted, sometimes I get a chance to stand and support it - Mr. Speaker, I find it very easy to be able to stand in support of these types of petitions because, Mr.

Speaker, over the years, it is over the last ten years now, eight when I had the opportunity to stand in this Legislature personally, the hon. Don Jamieson, brother of Bas, represented the district of Bellevue for a year and a half, then, of course, there was six months before a by-election was called. But anyway, Mr. former Minister of not sure what his now, but he is also interrupt me. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CALLAN: Speaker, the Justice, I am portfolio is attempting to But what I would like to say, Mr.

Speaker, in supporting this petition that I know, I am surprised actually after the district of Twillingate has been represented by the former member, the lady, it was started. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CALLAN: It is rocky. Well, Mr. Speaker, there are towns and communities in the district of L835 23 May 1985 Vol XL Bellevue which do not have that problem. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) knows full well that the town where I live, the town in which I live, where I was born and raised. AN HON. MEMBER: Whitbourne. MR.

CALLAN: No, ·the Premier was born in Whi tbourne, and raised in a beer tavern out there, and that accounts for his actions on certain days. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, I was born in the town of Long Cove, I now live in Norman' s Cove, and there is a municipal government there which is called The Town Council of Norman's Cove/Long Cove. These two towns together make up one municipal! ty is second only to Clarenville, in Trinity Bay, in size. In size, I am talking about the population figures, 1,300. Mr. Speaker, there has not been one cent spent in that town for - AN HON. MEMBER: There is money being spent for water.

MR. CALLAN: There is money being spent for water, yes, because they have been able to get Canada Works programmes to drill several artesian wells. But, Mr. Speaker, I hope that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) is listening. He is talking to one of his colleagues, but I am sure he is listening. It was only a week or two ago that the town council from that municipality came in and met with the minister. MR. DOYLE: (Inaudible). No. 17 [UNEDITED] R835

MR. CALLAN: The minister does not have to question whether or not there is an application in from that municipal! ty. He knows ·that there is one in this year, it was sent in last Fall, it should be, and it was sent in the Fall before that and the Fall before that. Actually, Mr. Speaker, water and sewer, phase one, was approved for the municipality of Norman's Cove/Long Cove back in 1975. It was approved in the Spring of 1975 before I became a member. And some members likes the member for St. John's North (Mr. J.

Carter) will remember that we had an election on September 16, 1975, and following that election then we had a mini-budget, it was. then that the mayor and the councillors, the municipality of Norman's Cove/Long Cove were told, we are sorry, but the water and sewer that was approved in the Spring - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CALLAN: That is right. cancelled. It is now being Ten years ago, Mr. Speaker, it was approved- AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CALLAN: No, the member in 1975 was the bon. member who now represents the district of Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Reid). MR. SIMMONS: Hear. hear! MR.

CALLAN: It was before redistribution, see. you L836 23 May 1985 Vol XL MR. SIMMONS: A good man. MR. CALLAN: The first election that was held after redistribution was September 16, 1975. MR. SIMMONS : Now I hope you are going to come (inaudible). MR. CALLAN: Now the member who now represents Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Reid) was the member then. A lot of strange things happened during that year, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: Hear, hear! AN HON. MEMBER: Tell us about (inaudible). MR.

CALLAN: I am not going to talk about Joe Smallwood or the savoury patch or landslide Simms in Gran~ .Falls, I want to talk about water and sewer, and I k_now, and the minister will concur, Mr. Speaker, that in a place like Durrell, a place like Twillingate where phase one has been started, then it should be automatic that they get phase two and three in subsequent years. And I want to say to the minister that I hope that this year that the minister will not be like the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) who is blatant in his pork-barrelling and the way he distributes taxpayers money - MR.

SIMMONS: The way he admitted today. MR. CALLAN: out of his Transportation. I Department hope that of the No. 17 [UNEDITED] R836

Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) who should drop in and see Mrs. Legrow more often, but I hope whether he does that or not, he will make some funds available this year for phase one of the water and sewer in Norman's Cove and, of course, whatever phase it happens to be in Twillingate, if it is phase two or three. I hope that comes - MR. DOYLE: (Inaudible). MR.

CALLAN: The minister is on record, the minister knows that there are no more than three towns, municipal! ties in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, there are no more than three larger than Norman' s Cove who do not have at least phase one or some phase of water and sewer. Norman's Cove has not any at all. AN BON. MEMBER: Which one do you want? MR. CALLAN: I want out of the minister's chunk of money this year- MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): ·Order, please! MR.

CALLAN: - I hope that he makes some funds available to the good people in Twillingate, very intelligent, they voted for this gentleman, and, of course, also - AN BON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: the good people in the municipality of Norman's Cove/Long L837 23 May 1985 Vol XL Cove. I thank you, Mr. Speaker. I support the petition. Orders of the Day MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, privilege. on a MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Oh, I beg your pardon. point of The hon. member for Fortune Hermitage, on a point of privilege. MR.

SIMMONS: I refer to the proceeding of the Privileges and Elections Comm.i ttee of this Chamber. I was slated to have been a member of that Committee but because of a domestic circumstance · I was not here, so my very able colleague for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) is the member in my place.

I was somewhat relieved in the knowledge that I would still have full access to the Committee except in terms of voting • And I have attended, I dropped in to the Colonial Building the last couple of nights, and, Mr. -speaker, in case you have not been there, it is really worth your whl.le to go, if you like charades, circuses, and insults to the people who sent us here.

It is an absolute galling charade what is going on there, to see a member of this Chamber elected by the people of Bonavista South, in this particular case, to come here and represent their best interest, have to write his notes on paper and have another member ask them for him, and have them corrected and being sent back to him and told the spelling is not right, or could he rewrite and could he be more eligible and that kind of nonsense. No. 17 [UNEDITED] R837

Mr. Speaker, we are told in related matters that were raised in the last day or so in this Chamber, we are told that somehow all that is happening down there is technically correct. The history books are chocked full of autocrats who were technically correct in their pursuit of muzzling people's rights, of shutting people up. So I am not concerned, Mr. Speaker, one iota of whether what is happening down there is technically correct. In realistic terms it is absolute abominable, and we are less than men and women, if we allow it to go on one more second down there. It has to stop.

Not only my rights, but the rights of the people who sent you here, Mr. Speaker, and who sent me here. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Now I do not particularly blame the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter), I pity him a little bit. But let us understand, Mr. Speaker, he is just the water boy, the carrier ·pigeon in all of this. He is just carrying a message. He is carrying an instruction to that Committee. The government set out- MR. J. CARTER: Would the hon. member permit a question? MR. SIMMONS: Yes, I will in a moment, I am on a point of privilege.

The government set frustrate the efforts out to of this investigation from the beginning, and they are having a lot of success because we are sitting on . L838 23 May 1985 Vol XL our rights over here and over there. We are sitting on our rights. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is not a partisan issue. This is an issue that affects the rights of every person in this Chamber and the rights of every person who voted in the last Provincial election. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr.

Speaker, let us call off that charade down at the Colonial Building, let us instruct the Committee that we intended is not happening, what we intended in the House is not happening, but the government intended it is happening down there. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us call off the charade, call it off. I hope in the process in saying this I do not in any way obstruct the opportunity of the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) to have his case properly aired, that is not my intention, I say to him, that it is not my intention. But we have to find another vehicle or we have to see that this vehicle is on course.

It is not on course now, because she is being frustrated by what is justified under the term •technically correct•. Mr. Speaker, it would be technically correct for us to say to everybody in those galleries now, 'Get out! ' Because Standing Order 12 says that all I have to do is say, 'Mr. Speaker, I recognize some strangers, ' and, according to the rules, you are supposed to order them to withdraw. But surely, Mr. Speaker, that is put there for some extraordinary purpose. And I submit to you, Mr.

Speaker, that the provision that a Committee may prevent members other than Committee members from No. 17 [UNEDITED) R838

participating in the Committee, that Standing Order is put there for use in extraordinary times. So, my question to the Acting Government House Leader is this: What is particularly extraordinary about this? The Committee, itself, Mr. Speaker, is provided for in House rules, not as a Select Committee that just came out of nowhere because of the allegation or the submission of the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan). It is a Standing Committee, and for very good reason. Because we recognize that from time to time, we will require such a Committee to adjudicate various grievances that come before this House.

So there is nothing extraordinary about the Committee. There may be something extraordinary in that a member's or a former minister's files are being shredded under particular circumstances, but I do not want to get into the merits of the case. What I want to _put to you, Mr. Speaker, is that my privileges, as a member of this House, and therefore, and more importantly, the privileges of every person who sent me here and every voter who sent you here, Sir, and every voter who sent the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr.

Flight) and every other member of this House, our privileges are being breached, breached absolutely and without question. And the only way to undo that - there are one or two options, call off that Committee, because it is an absolute charade, it is making us all look an absolute laughingstock, call off the Committee altogether, or get it back on track and allow it to conduct itself as every other Committee of this House has conducted itself. There is no precedent anywhere, Mr. Speaker, not in Ottawa, not here in St. L839 23 May 1985 Vol XL John's, not in Westminster.

There is no precedent whatsoever for what the government majority foisted on that Committee in terms of procedure, no precedent for it whatsoever, and the only explanation I can find for it is that the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) has been, in this case, a very able carrier pigeon. He has carried the message well to that Committee, he has done his job. It is a despicable job he has done, a despicable job, and we are party to it if we allow it to go on, Mr. Speaker.

So I appeal to you, Sir, to allow us - I am prepared to put down the motion - to instruct the Committee to get back on track and to conduct itself as every other Committee in this House conducts itself, i.e., allowing members to participate, except in terms of voting, and as every other Committee in the British parliamentary system, whether in Australia or New Zealand or Westminster or Ottawa or Edmonton or anywhere else is operating. This is an absolute travesty and it should not be allowed to go on another second. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. J. CARTER: Mr.- Speaker MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of privilege, the hon. the member for st. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of points here to be considered. First of all is that I trust that the hon. member is able And if he is able to should re-read

Section Your Honour, I believe No. 17 [UNEDITED] to read. read, he 86 (b). this was R839

.. .. handled adequately yesterday in Your Honour's decision, to allow

Section 86 (

b) to stand. There is no requirement for this Committee, I would add, to hold its hearings in public, yet, because of the public nature of the point of privilege and the amount of publicity that it received, the Committee felt that the interests of the House and of the people named and of the member claiming privilege would be better served if the hearings were to be held in public.

It was further decided Committee to restrict members only, largely that the deliberations by this it to in order could be concluded in this present century, and I say that with full knowledge of what I am saying, that this could become an endless procedural wrangle that I do not think anybody wants. There are civil servants who have been named in this point of privilege and I think that their interests should be looked at, and I think that the matter of handled possible. privilege should be as expeditiously as I think that the stand that we took was a reasonable one, a considered one.

The proper procedure was- followed, it was voted on in Committee and it was minuted, and I believe, Your Honour,_ the appropriate sources have been quoted. Also, Your Honour, having been decided by Your Honour, I do not feel that it should be able to be raised again. However, that is a matter for someone else to decide. MR. SIMMONS: Would the member say what he quoted, Standing Order 86 (b)? MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. L840 23 May 1985 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, to that point of personal privilege, I would like to add a few comments to it and I agree, of course, with the remarks of my colleague from Fortune Hermitage (Mr. Simmons). I had occasion last night to visit the old Colonial Bl,lilding and to take in the session that was taking place there. I must say, Mr. Speaker, it was almost embarrassing, . Sir, to see the way that that hearing was conducted. And I am not casting any reflections on the Chairman of the Committee. Mr.

Speaker, the whole scenario, Sir, was wrong, notes being carried back and forth between the former minister and the Chairman, notes being sent back to be clarified, to be rewritten, and it it was not so serious, Mr. Speaker, it would be laughable. MR. SIMMONS: It was laughable. MR. W. CARTER: Yes, it was laughable. I agree, Mr. Speaker, that that is a Standing Committee, and while the Committee ·might have been right in deciding that members would not be allowed to question witnesses, certainly, there are no special circumstances that would warrant that kind of action.

I have had the privilege of serving on a number of Standing Committees as a member of Parliament in Ottawa in the Opposition, where we travelled to almost every major city in Canada conducting meetings and hearings on certain issues • No. 17 [UNEDITED) R840

Mr. Speaker, I can tell you now that never in my experience was that kind of a situation allowed to prevail. At all of the Standing Committee meetings, naturally there are just so many members appointed, made up from government members and from Opposition members, but certainly, other members were entitled to attend and, in turn, ask questions. Now, they were not allowed to vote, they could not form part of a quorum.

They had to stand in line, as it were, and wait to get their questions on, they could not just jump in ahead of a properly appointed member of that Committee, but certainly, they were allowed to question the various witnesses that came before these Committees. It is a very serious matter, Mr. Speaker, that is being considered by that Committee. Certain allegations have been made, allegations that, in some cases, reflect on certain people, and I believe it would be in the best interests of all concerned if members who care to attend those sessions would be permitted to question the witnesses.

As a former minister of that department, knowing something about the structure of the department and the way files are handled and stored, I believe I could have made a worthwhile contribution last night to that meeting. But I was muzzled. I could not, in fact, I dare not ask a question. That is why I would support the comments of my colleague and request that the House Leader - or whatever has to be done to broaden the hearings and to enable others other than the appointed members to question witnesses as they appear. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): L841 23 May 1985 Vol XL Order, please!

I would like to rule on that matter now. we had a full discussion on this matter yesterday and I ruled that there was no prima facie case, because we are going strictly according to our Standing Orders, and they are there in the one that was quoted by the hon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) •. I will quote again, which I did yesterday: nprocedural difficulties which arise in committees ought to be settled in the committee and not in the Hausen. That is from Beauchesne, Paragraph 608, Page 196. As far as I am concerned, my hands, as I said yesterday, are tied.

These are the Standing Orders of this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Committee is master of its own rules and there is no prima facie case. MR. MORGAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. member for Bonavista South. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I fully agree with your ruling and having interpreted clearly yesterday as well on your ruling, but my · point of order is this that the rules of the Committee are changing and I think my colleague, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr.

Ottenheimer) will understand what I am saying, the rules changed No. 17 [UNEDITED] R841

from yesterqay in the House when we agreed I could not as a member ask questions of any wi tne~s. In the middle of last evening's proceedings I received a note from the Chairman saying I could then, or now, ask questions but I had to write them out, deliver the questions to the Chairman, and he would ask the questions for me. Now that is a different ruling from what we understood in the House yesterday afternoon • . Yesterday afternoon the decision was, I understood Mr.

Speaker, that the Committee had made a ruling, I disagreed with the ruling so did other members of the House, that no member could ask questions but now last evening that rule is changed. Mr. Speaker, the point of order I am making, if I can ask questions by writing them out and giving them to somebody else to ask why can I not ask them directly myself by sitting in on that Committee as a member of the House? MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, while it is true that as the member for Bonavista South (Mr.

Morgan) says that yesterday evening you did rule on this point of privilege, the member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) is perfectly correct in that he feels that his privileges have been breached and it is up to the government to stop that kind of nonsense that went on down there last night. I concur, Mr. Speaker, with the member for Bonavista South, that it was nonsense. As a matter of fact as a member of the Committee at one point I had to ask if I could be • L842 23 May 1985 . Vol XL recognized to get ahead of him.

It is confusing to see a page running back and forth between a member of this House, a member accused, a member making accusations or whatever the case might be, running back and forth with questions to be put through another party. That is absolutely wrong.

If there has to be some method worked out in this House with the Government House Leader, with the government side, whereby there has to be certain controls . put on the Committee well let us do it in this House so that members of this House feel that their privileges are not .being breached, so that they feel they have the freedom to ask questions because they have been elected by a certain number of people. So while the member for Fortune-Hermitage is probably right when he stands and says, •technically everything is above board," you have to ask yourself the question, why is that charade going on down there?

Why is it that we have to see members, and I suppose the member for Twillingate (Mr. w. Carter) if he had so chose to lower himself to that extent, could have put a question on paper to the Chairlilan and then perhaps would have been told that he could not read his writing. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is just not good enough. And I call upon the government side of this House, the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) or whoever happens to be acting for the Government House Leader, or the Premier, to come in here and straighten this matter out, let us get it straight so that members of this House can ask appropriate questions. MR. SIMMONS: To that point of order. No. 17 [UNEDITED] R842

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the point of order that the member for Bona vista South has just raised, the substance of it puts the lie to what the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) said less than five minutes ago. Remember that he rested his whole case for his decision to exclude members of this House, others than members, he rested the entire case on two items, one, that he could get away with it under the rules; and two, that it was expeditious. That was his term. Now · I ask him, Mr.

Speaker, through you, how can you construe that it is more expeditious to have the member for Bonavista South sit down and craft his question and have it come through the mouth and the lips of the member for . St. John's North, or have the member for Bonavista South ask it himself. Does he talk faster than the member for Bonavista South, is that what he is saying? MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, that is what I meant in using the term charade. It is an absolute charade. There is nothing expeditious about this. Expeditiousness had nothing to do with this.

Muzzling is what was behind the whole thing. Refusing members of this House the opportunity to get to the root of the matter, that is what is behind it. They have a carefully managed Committee, they get a government majority that rams it through, that is what it is all about. Let L843 23 May 1985 Vol XL us call spades spades. That is what is going on let us get rid of this Committee, it does not deserve to be called a committee of this House. The member for Bonavista South in his point of order makes a valid point because it has nothing to do with expeditiousness, if that is a term, expeditiousness. MR.

CALLAN: Expediency. MR. SIMMONS: Expediency, my teacher friend from Bellevue (Mr. Callan) helps me, because it takes the same time whether he reads the question or the gentleman from St. John' s North reads the question. So let us call off the charade and if he uses that term again we will have to get up on another point of order, if he uses that excuse again, and accuse him of misleading the House. Because it has nothing to do with expediency. That is not why he is doing what he is doing at all. He is doing it because he is under orders to do it, because he is a carrier pigeon for the government. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is a perversion of the rules of this House. It is a perversion of that Committee process, that Standing Committee was put there for a good purpose, not to be frustrated by a government majority, but to allow members on whatever side of the House they sit, as an independent, a budding independent, Tory, aspiring Liberal, a Liberal, whatever. Every member of this House has got to be assured, and the people who sent us here have to be assured that there is an impartial court of last resort, the Privileges and Election Committee, that we can put our No. 17 [UNEDITED] R843

grievances before. DR. COLLINS: (Inaudible) rules. MR. SIMMONS: .. Mr. Speaker, I do not claim to know the rules so skillfully as those who pervert the rules. I do not claim to know them that skillfully, but I see a perversion of the rules here, Mr. Speaker. I see my rights being breached. And I understand this matter was dealt with yesterday but one of the rights we still have in this House, until the government moves in on us · with their majority, one of the rights we still have is that each single one of us in turn can get up on exactly the same point of privilege.

Because I did not get up on the matter of whether the Bonavista South member's privileges were breached, I got up on my rights being breached. And when the Speaker has ruled on that, my friend from Bellevue (Mr. callan) can get up and make the same point. Mr. Speaker may well have the same ruling, of course, but Mr. Speaker, if we have to stay here until Doomsday, if we have to stay here this thing is g_oing to be cleared up one way or the other. We are not going to continue to be a party to that circus down there, that charade, that insult, that absolute insult that is going on down there now.

The structure of the Committee is a good thing. It has been perverted by government clout, by a majority that went there with instruction to frustrate the will of that Committee to see they do not get to the bottom of things, "Do not let too much air in boys. Do not let too much light in boys. Do not let too many members in asking questions because the truth might come out, the truth could just • L844 23 May 1985 Vol XL come out." Now, Mr.

Speaker, if you cannot - and when I say cannot I do not mean lack of ability but lack of authority in terms of the rules which you are constrained by, and I appreciate that, if you cannot, Sir, because the Comm.i ttee is the master of its own rules, if your hands are tied as you said in some other words a moment ago, perhaps we could just get for thirty seconds a little informal, let me appeal to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs who I assume at the moment is the Acting Government House Leader, is that correct? Yes.

Let me appeal to the Acting · Government House Leader, and say, "Look, in view of the dialogue, the concerns that he has heard in the last twenty-four hours in this Chamber, in view of the perception that is being conveyed out there, and you heard my very esteemed colleague for Twillingate (W. Carter) who draws a lot of experience in Ottawa and here on committees in opposition and governmental experience.

In view of the concerns that have been expressed, in view of the perceptions that are going out over the public airways about this process, I am sure the government, whatever its motives, however honourable its motives, I am sure it never intended that it would be portrayed as this kind of a circus. And I submit it has become a frivolous set of events down there. And so let us find the mechanism to instruct the committee, a motion, it does not matter what the mechanism I am sure we can find it in the book. I guess the appropriate one would be a motion. AN BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) No. 17 [UNEDITED] R844

MR. SIMMONS: Or the leave of the House itself. All I am saying to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Ottenheimer) is listen to what the concerns have been, have a second thought in terms of the perceptions that we are conveying to the public. The old cliche about justice not only being done but seeming ·to be done is pertinent here. And at the moment this Committee is not serving the purpose that is intended under the Standing Orders. And I would submit, Mr.

Speaker, it is not serving that purpose because of the action of the government majority in excluding people who are not members of that Committee. Now, that is the crux of the issue. We can stand on technicality, we can brazen it through, or we can do the sensible thing and say, 'Fellows let us get this back on track.' And it seems to me that would be the appropriate course. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, briefly on this. The first point I want to make is obviously not central to the issue but I do want to make it.

The hon. members refer to majority, the government has a majority on the Committee and therefore things can be perverted or just not done because of the majority, and, of course, the government has a majority. No matter who forms the government they have a majority in the Bouse. I mean things work by majority. Every hon. member opposite got in because he either got a majority or if he did not get a majority he got the largest plurality in a three-way fight, so there is nothing so wrong about L845 23 May 1985 Vol XL majorities.

Hon gentlemem opposite all wanted their majority, so this word majority is as if it were something unparliamentary in itself. However, on the substantive matters, Mr. Speaker, this matter, whether it comes up as a point of privilege or a point of order, whether it comes up from whatever member it comes, is the same point which has been ruled on more than once. And it is not accurate to say that when a ruling has been made with respect to one member you can then go through all the other fifty-one members and make the same ruling fifty-two times. That is not accurate at all.

Once a matter is decided then it is decided. It is what is called (inaudible). This matter has been decided, has been decided as a point of privilege, has been decided as a point of order, and when the Speaker rules on it again that does not mean that everybody who has not got ten up to originate that point can then do so. That would be totally ridiculous. So the matter has been ruled on. There is only one other point I wish to make and that is, I think, hon. gentlemen probably view .this Committee totally out of context. You would not know but it were the last judgement or the trails of Nuremberg.

I mean with all due respect to the Chairman and the people involved, the members who are on it, those who are testifying before it, those who are going down there and those who are subpoenaed. I understand the Chairman even offered to subpoena the CBC if they wanted to come. In due respect to everybody what does this Committee do? It enquires into and reports upon. And what does it do? It reports to the Bouse and it reports to the House by way of a motion. That is No. 17 [UNEDITED] R845

a debatable motion and every hon. member can get up and agree or disagree or make whatever points he wants to germane to it. So it comes back to this House when it is completed in the form of a report which is made available to the House by a debatable motion. And if hon. members then feel that the Committee did it improperly, its findings are wrong, its methodology was wrong, or whatever, that is the time that the House deals with it, when it comes back into the Legislature by means of a motion which is a debatable motion. So all I say is that this matter has been ruled upon, Mr.

Speaker, and I would suggest that it would be appropriate, parliamentary practice not to allow the same matter to keep coming up time, after time, again, under a different guise or just because the same matter comes up by a different member. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. member for St. John's North. · MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, qne further point should be made. I have no objection to a procedural wrangle. It perhaps can be upsetting but it does not bother me at all. It is where the procedural wrangle takes place.

If the procedural wrangle takes place in this House of Assembly that is one thing but it is cruel and unusual to have a procedural wrangle take place at the meeting of a Committee where there are civil servants, people who do not have the same right of reply and of recourse as the rest of us members in this House. And, as Chairman, I think it would be utterly irresponsible for me to L846 23 May 1985 Vol XL all$w the kind of procedural wrangle that I am sure would take place if I had not insisted upon 86 of

Section (b) • And the more members jump up and down and talk about their rights being trampled the more I am glad that I spotted this particular rule and was able to have it passed. I think that as a Committee we are doing the right thing and every time the members opposite jump up and down it is just a shadow of the kind of things they would like to do down in Committee, and I am very glad they cannot do them. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday in discussing the point of order I indicated that I really resent whether or not we should permit people to cross-examine. When you think of cross-examine you think of frightening people, who cannot protect themselves, literally to death. I am not talking about that, Mr. Speaker, that can be worked out.. What I resented was the right of members of the House of Assembly being denied their right to question · a Standing Committee, to take

part in a Standing Committee. The Chairman of that Committee, if he wishes to restrict any member of this House to one or two questions, he can do that as the Chairman. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. acting House Leader contradicted his own argument in a sense when he said, well who is this Committee, they are not the last word. Well they must be awfully important because they are important enough, Mr. Speaker, for this House and the government to refuse to allow members to appear before them, the first time, ever, in a Standing • No. 17 . [UNEDITED) R846

Committee it happened since this Legislature was established. So, Mr. Speaker, if the Committee is so insignificant and so unimportant, in a sense, why is it that we take this drastic measure of denying the rights of members of this Bouse of Assembly? And I want, also, Mr. Speaker, to set the record straight in as far as this member is concerned, and I am sure I also speak for my colleague for Fogo (Mr.Tulk), Mr. Speaker. The Committee made this decision. Well, let me tell this Bouse of Assembly and the media and the general public that this member was not part of that decision.

Be was a part of the decision but he voted against denying members of this Bouse the right to appear. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Bear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: And that also applies also to the hon. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk), Mr. Speaker. It is a charade. We are making fools of ourselvess. The hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) piped across the Bouse that this Bouse is the · last resort. well, of course it is and this is the second day we have come back to the last resort. We have come to this Bouse of Assembly, through you, Mr.

Speaker, we have come to this Bouse of Assembly and asked to stop this charade, to stop this foolishness. The Bouse of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, has been held up to ridicule in this Province. Not necessarily individual members but the whole Bouse of Assembly is being held up to ridicule and members opposite will have to answer to their constituents. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): I allowed the hen. the member for L847 23 May 1985 Vol XL Fortune - Bermi tage (Mr. Simmons) and the hen. the member for Twillingate (Mr. w.

Carter) to speak at length, but this whole matter was discussed at length ysterday and I ruled at that time that there was no prima facie case. Now, my job is to see that the Standing Orders are carried out. I have read the Standing Orders and the Standing Orders are perfectly clear. This Committee was formed by this Bouse and the procedure in that Committee is determined by that Committee itself. So there is no point of order. MR. SIMMONS: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege, the hen~ the member for Fortune - Bermitrage. MR.

SIMMONS: A point of privilege, and it relates but it is not near the one I raised a moment ago, it arises out of the comments that were just made by the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) • When he says, Mr. Speaker, that part of the fount of wisdom he drew on in allowing that motion to go through the Committee was that he foresaw that it would be cruel and unusual punishment, or something, he is misleading the Bouse.

Because all of us know - he is not misleading because we know better, but he is trying to mislead - that the rules of committee can and were established, I presume, in camera, certainly before the witnesses were called. So this nonsense about there being a procedural wrangle, had there been a procedural wrangle, it would have been put to bed before the witnesses were called. That is No. 17 [UNEDITED] R847

·~ point number one. Now, Mr. Speaker, my real point of privilege is this: He has just insulted every member of this House. Because what he said, in effect, is that he could not trust us to go down . there and ask questions. The people of this Province trust us to come here and ask questions and make speeches and make representations on their behalf, but he, is his wisdom, could not let us loose down there, Mr. Speaker. Afraid we would ask the wrong questions. What and insult! I believe, Mr.

Speaker, you should ask that member to withdraw that insult to every single member of this House, the suggestion, the gall, that somehow if we were let loose in the Committee we would not ask the right questions. Is that the real reason, I say to the member for Bonavista South· (Mr. Morgan) he is making you write your questions out, so he can screen them? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Censor them. MR. J. CARTER: Good point. MR;. SIMMONS: Shame! Withdraw! Withdraw! Apologize to the House. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! There is no prima facie case of privilege.

This is a matter which has been discussed at length if the matter is going to be changed, it is up to the House, by leave, or change the Standing Orders. But the Chair has not authority to say that there is a prima facie case. The rules of the House are being L848 23 May 1985 Vol XL ----· ----- obeyed, and strictly obeyed. MR. SIMMONS: With leave of the move that we Committee - House I would instruct the SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave. No leave. MR. SPEAKER: No leave. MR. SIMMONS: Muzzled again. Who said the government was not behind this?

Before going to the budget debate I wish to move, just to remind hon. members what this is. As hon. members will recall, the composition of the committees which examine the estimates have been identified, and this is the motion which establishes which departments go to which committee. I would there move that the following Heads of Expenditure be referred to the Resource Committee: Mines and Energy, Fisheries, Development, Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development, Forest Resources and Lands, and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

Furthermore, that the following Heads of Expenditure be referred to the Social Services Committee: Justice, Health, Environment, Social Education, Services, and Youth, and Advanced Culture, Recreation Career Development Studies. And, finally, that the following Heads of Expenditure be referred to the Government Committee: Municipal Services Affairs, Public Works and Services, Labour, Finance, Transporation, and No. 17 [UNEDITED] R848

Consumer Communications. it. I so move. DR. COLLINS: Afairs I think and that is Well done! An excellent job. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I wonder if the Acting Government House Leader (Mr. Ottenheimer) would indicate whether members are going to be allowed to ask questions at the Estimates Committees? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: To the best of my knowledge, this government is one which encourages full participation ·, as our record over the past number of years has shown, and no doubt these will be very stimulating, and there will be questions on top of questions. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Would the Acting Government House Leader explain to this · House, then, what the difference is between this Standing Committee, that there has been so much talk about, and the other Standing Committees that he is now proclaiming in this House? What is the difference?

He will not answer the question. L849 23 May 1985 Vol XL MR. FLIGHT: He will not answer it. MR. BARRY: He cannot answer it. Motion, that Heads of Expenditure be referred to the various Estimates Committees, carried. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 1, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to get too many of my - MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Could I just leader before interrupt he gets the hon. started? There are three questions to take up the adjournment. One is by the hon. member for St. John's East Extern (Mr.

Hickey), a question asked on Thursday in reference to the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett). He is not satisfied with the answer about boarding houses. MR. BARRY: I do not blame him. MR. SPEAKER: And there are two questions asked by the hon. the member for Menihek. One, he is not satisfied with the answer given about the appointment of the two development officers, one for Buchans and one for Goose Bay, and the second one is by the hon. member for Menihek who is not satisfied with the Premier's answer to his question about the percentage of Newfoundland workers in the offshore oil industry.

The hon. the Opposition. Leader No. 17 [UNEDITED] of the R849

MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I started off in the budget debate pointing out that we have a government that is failing to'set any objectives with respect to the reduction of unemployment, or the creation of jobs. We have a government that is seeing the deficit increase, but the deficit is increasing in an uncontrolled, unplanned fashion because of bad management, bad planning by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and tne Premier and Cabinet, rather than being imcreased as a result of a determined effort and a specific decision to stimulate the economy in order to create employment. Unfortunately, Mr.

Speaker, we have a business-as-usual budget at a time when we do have a serious crisis of unemployment. The Minister of Finance says we do that, i.e. , we stimulate -the economy by our capital budget and that tells you something about the mentality of this government. The mentality of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is that it is enough to create short-term construction jobs.

That is the minister's answer to dealing with unemployment in this Province when every month we see more and more of our neighbours, our friends, our relatives, unemployed, we see more and more young people walking the streets desperately looking for work and the answer of the Minister of Finance is, 'Well, we deal with that by increasing our capital budget.' That is not good enough, Mr. Speaker. That indicates a government and a Minister of Finance that is bankrupt of ideas, bankrupt of new policies. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am afraid it indicates some bad times for this Province over the next several years if this attitude continues. L850 23 May 1985 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, not only is it wrong in the short-term, we are seeing the groundwork laid, we are seeing the foundation laid in this Province for serious social problems. I do not know if anybody saw the television show, The Journal, on last night on unemployment in Britain and it - DR. COLLINS: There was one view reported in that document. They only showed one aspect of their society. (Inaudible).

There is much more to it than that narrow image that that programme showed. MR. BARRY: Oh, yes, Mr. Speaker, again that is very revealing. The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) will have us put on the blinkers and look elsewhere than at the 1 million youths unemployed, double the population of Newfoundland. One million tales of heartbreak and hardship and the Minister of Finance would say, 'Put on the blinkers and let us look instead at these rustic country lanes. Let us look at the bear and bull, the cock and dove.

Let us look at these quaint British pubs and let us look at the changing of the guard at Buckingham · Palace. Let us look at the Bentleys that are drawn up on Fleet Street. Let us look at the few big business individuals that are still there still able to earn a living and have ·their chauffeur standing by their Bentleys and their Jaguars and quite a large number of Rolls Royces and an occasional little Mercedes thrown in there as well.' That, Mr. Speaker, is what the Minister of Finance would have us focus on.

Ignore the 1 million unemployed youth because if we looked at what was happening in Britain with respect to the social problems being generated by the No. 17 [UNEDITED] R850

Thatcher Tory policies we might learn from those mistakes. We might understand what goes on in the heart and soul of that young fellow who spends his time lying in bed because he has been totally crushed by the burden of unemployment and gets up as the sun is going down to open up his tin of homemade cigarettes getting his two pounds a day - what is that worth around $4 a day living in the YMCA. Now he is really going to be making a contribution to Britain. Mr. Speaker, the same thing is happening up here.

We have to refer to television in Britain because I know the Minister of Finance has no concept of what is going on beyond the overpass. He has no . concept of the many communities in this Province. We had the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) come back from his last visit to his district and list communities. One community, where out of 118 people under 25, 116 are unemployed. Would the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) have us look elsewhere on that? If it has not been on television yet believe me it will be. Mr. Speaker, we have other communities in this Province not just the district of St.

Barbe, go out to the Port au Port Peninsula, go down to the Bay d'Espoir region of this Province. MR. SIMMS: Where is the member today? MR. BARRY: The member for St. Barbe had illness in his family and informed the Speaker to effect and will be back in House today. some has that the The member for st. Barbe, Mr. Speaker, has been doing a magnificent job and is very much L851 23 May 1985 Vol XL on top of the social problems that are being created in his district and the same is true of many other districts.

Just imagine what we are going to have to deal with in another ten or fifteen years when these same people, these young men and women, who are now seventeen to twenty-five in ten years time are from twenty-seven to thirty-five and still have not been working. Can you imagine, Mr. Speaker? They are not even goi ·ng to know how to work. They will have lost the discipline that is one of the real reasons that we have a school system, to get people used to meeting deadlines, used to disciplining themselves, used to disciplining their way of thinking, and, Mr.

Speaker, in ten years time we are going to have lost an entire generation. DR. COLLINS: (Inaudible) Newfoundlander. Have faith? Doom and gloom. MR. BARRY: resourceful you lost The minister goes · by the old Biblical, 'Consider the lilies of the field, they toil not neither do · _they sting that even Solomon in all his glory. ' That is the philosophy. Now there are a few lines in the Bible that I have had some difficulty understanding and I will be interested in hearing the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Decker) get up and give us a little explanation of some of this. Another one, Mr.

Speaker, that I am sure the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) understands full well is the parable of three talents, he would go along with that too, where the guy who hoarded his talents, buried it to No. 17 [UNEDITED] R851

keep it safe because he did not want to abuse the money that had been placed in his trust and lose it, was the guy who got the worst of the deal and the ones that went out and took a little high risk speculation were the ones that the Lord favoured. I always had a lot of difficulty in understanding that particular parable and I want to have the member for the Strait of Belle Isle explain that to me. I am sure .the Minister of Finance with his warped an4 distorted perspective, Mr. economic matters - AN HON. MEMBER: Let them eat cake. MR.

BARRY: Speaker, on Yes, I am surprised he has not jumped up and said, 1 Let them eat cake. 1 Mr. Speaker, we have a Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), who, regrettably, is becoming tired. Still a young man but tired. Tired in thought as well as deed, Mr. Speaker. The budget is a product of Tim Horton. MR. SIMMONS: They should retire him and make him a development officer. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would not inflict the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) on any industrial development district, or industrial development association.

MS VERGE: I thought you were going to keep debate on a higher plane, this time. MR. BARRY: L852 23 May 1985 Vol XL I thought we were making a very effective point, were we not? MR. PATTERSON: You will have to get a new speech writer. MR. BARRY..: Mr. Speaker, this gives me the opportunity. The Minister of Justice (Ms Verge) is concerned because she feels that my comments are personal. And, I must say, the press tends to slip into and to buy that old adage. I must say, I slipped once when I referred to the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) as Newfoundland 1 s answer to the Care Bear, but that was an affectionate reference, Mr. Speaker. That was the only personal comment I made about the Minister of Finance, and the Minister of Finance knows that was done with affection. Even the Miniser of Justice smiled about that one. But, Mr. Speaker, there is a difference in pointing out that the minister is a failure as minister in the responsibilities given him in trust · by the people of this Province, by the Premier.

There is a difference in pointing out that the minister is an abject failure in his portfolio and in talking about his family, or his personal lifestyle, or his automobile. MR. TULK: The Minister of Finance is just as big a failure in his job as the Minister of Justice was in hers as Minister of Education. MR. BARRY: Maybe that is why the Minister of Justice is a little touch. Because she is going to want to get up and protest that we are being personal when we start to look at her tenure as Minister of Education, as we will during the No. 17 (UNEDITED) R852

course of the estimates. There is a real difference, I can tell the Minister of Justice, between calling ministers of the Crown to account for the way in which they have conducted their affairs as minister, and their personal lifestyle. MR. TULK: Another one gone. left. MR. BARRY: Another one We will have them all driven out in a minute, and we will have to call a quorum. MR. TULK: They cannot take it. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we are going to continue to point out teh failures of the administration with respect to the responsibilities entrusted in them in their official capacity. We are going to try, Mr.

Speaker, and I am sure sometimes in the heat of debate we will make a mistake. We will try and not do it too often, but I am sure we will slip into some personal reference. But it is not a personal reference, Mr. Speaker, to question whether the Minister of Finance is doing the job that the people of this Province want him to do when he says, Do not look at the million unemployed youth in Great Britain, do not examine the social problem that is being created in Great Britain by that great Tory policy of increasing the number of unemployed in order to deal with inflation. Well, Mr.

Speaker, we on this siode of the Bouse said we must look at that million unemployed, because from their torture, from their hardship, from their torment L853 23 May 1985 Vol XL we will learn what is going to happen to the unemployed young people of this Province. And we do not want to see those social problems ingrained in our social fabric that Britain is now experiencing. I know we are getting the occasional skinhead around here, and the occasional punk, but, Mr.

Speaker, we do not have a high violent crime rate, we do not have a society of young people who are alienated, not have streets that are we do unsafe to walk because of class tension, because you have a whole segment of society that is left out of sharing in the benefits of society. That is the sort of thing, Mr. Speaker, that we do not want to see happen to this Province. We do not want to see those thousands of young people under twenty-five say, To hell with it, what is the point of supporting a system that has nothing for us? Mr.

Speaker, that is what is being created out there by members opposite, that is what the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is going to have to answer to and · answer for. He ·is going to have to explain how . he feels when he looks out and sees those - how many unemployed young people do we now have in this Province under the age of forty-five? MR. TULK: Forty-four per cent. MR. BARRY: We have over 40 per cent of them unemployed. In numbers we have close to 60,000 unemployed, we are probably talking 20, 000 to 25, 000 young people under twenty-five. Now, it is not a million, Mr.

Speaker, it is not a million, but when it comes