British Columbia Hansard — Wednesday, April 21, 2004

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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

5th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Wednesday, April 21, 2004 Afternoon Sitting Volume 23, Number 10 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 5TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations ...............................................................................................................Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Deputy Premier and Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................ Hon. Christy Clark Minister of State for Early Childhood Development...................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................................................................ Hon.

Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries..................................................................................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations..................................................................................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services ................................................................................................ Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of State for Women's and Seniors' Services................................................................................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Education ............................................................................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of Energy and Mines...............................................................................................................................................Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining...................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Minister of Finance.........................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests................................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Michael de Jong Minister of State for Forestry Operations.................................................................................................................................. Hon. Roger Harris Minister of Health Services.........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health and Addiction Services ....................................................................................................Hon.

Susan Brice Minister of Human Resources........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of Management Services ............................................................................................................................................. Hon. Joyce Murray Minister of Provincial Revenue.................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...................................................................................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour......................................................................................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Small Business and Economic Development ...............................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Sustainable Resource Management ....................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Resort Development............................................................................................................................... Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection ............................................................................................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition .......................................................................................................................................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole..............................................................................................................................................

Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ........................................................................................................................................... E. George MacMinn Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk ...............................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................................................................Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hans ard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet.

Party Standings: Liberal 74; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 3 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ..........................................................................Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L)............................................................... Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...............................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) ..................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L)....................................................................................North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ..............................................................................East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................... Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).....................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)..........................................

Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L) ........................................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Brenzinger, Elayne (Ind. L)...........................................................Surrey-Whalley Brice, Hon. Susan (L)...................................................................... Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L) ................................................. Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L) ..............................................

Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Gulzar S. (L).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Hon. Ida (L) ......................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ...................................................... Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ..............................................................................Yale-Lillooet Clark, Hon.

Christy (L) ....................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ................................................................................Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ..........................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)................................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon. Gary (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L) ........................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon.

Kevin (L) ............................................................ Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ......................................................................Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Greg (L) ............................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)..............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon. Colin (L) .......................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Hon.

Roger (L) ................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L)............................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L) ........................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ..................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Gordon (L)................................................................... Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) .....................................................................................

Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)........................................................North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L).............................................................. Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L) ................................................................ Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L)................................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)................................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).........................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................... Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L).................................................................... Chilliwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ............................................................. Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) .................................................... Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L).........................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................. Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ............................................................ Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) ..............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ..................................................................................... Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L)............................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L).............................................................

New Westminster Nebbeling, Ted (L)..................................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L) ...................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .......................................................

Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L).....................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L)..................................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Orr, Sheila (L) .............................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)......................................................................... Chilliwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ...........................................................

Richmond-Steveston Reid, Judith (L)....................................................................... Nanaimo-Parksville Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ..................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L)...................................................................Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)............................................................................ Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).......................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L) ..............................................

West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Lynn (L).................................................................................... Langley Stewart, Ken (L)........................................................ Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L)........................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L)..................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L) .........................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L)............................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)..................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L)..................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L)...................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).......................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Katherine (L).............................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)..............................................................................Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)..............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn ........................................................ Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman................................................Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum ........................................................................

Gillian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ................................................................ Dennis MacKay Burnaby North................................................................................ Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds.............................................................................. Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon ........................................................................John Nuraney Burquitlam............................................................................................

Harry Bloy Cariboo North..................................................................................... John Wilson Cariboo South........................................................................................Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ................................................................................ Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas ........................................................................... Hon.

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke .....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .............................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville............................................................... Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .........................................................Hon. Graham P.

Bruce Delta North.............................................................................................Reni Masi Delta South...................................................................................Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .....................................................................................Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin .................................................................... Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove....................................................... Hon.

Rich Coleman Kamloops ......................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson.......................................................... Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country .................................................................John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ...................................................................Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley........................................................................................... Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca.......................................................................

Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ......................................................................Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows............................................................... Ken Stewart Nanaimo .............................................................................................Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville..............................................................................Judith Reid Nelson-Creston......................................................................... Blair F.

Suffredine New Westminster .................................................................... Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast .......................................................................................... Bill Belsey North Island.......................................................................................... Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale .................................................... Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour ..............................................................

Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head.................................................................Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon ..............................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North ...............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South ..........................................................................Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley...................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain......................................................Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood ...........................................................Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast............................................................Harold Long Prince George North .........................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................. Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca .................................................................

Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre ...................................................................Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East ............................................................................ Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ...................................................................Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands..................................................Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South............................................................................. Hon. Susan Brice Shuswap ................................................................................

Hon. George Abbott Skeena .......................................................................................Hon. Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers.....................................................................Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ..................................................................................Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge............................................................ Gulzar S.

Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .............................................................................Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ........................................................................ Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock.......................................................................... Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard .................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview..................................................................Hon. Gary Collins Vancouver-Fraserview .....................................................................

Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings......................................................................... Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington .................................................................... Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway............................................................................ Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara...................................................................... Val J. Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey..................................................... Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena ............................................................. Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill ...............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.....................................................................................Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary ......................................................Hon. Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ............................................................... Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi............................................................

Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .....................................................................................Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Wednesday, April 21, 2004 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 10273 Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ....................................... 10273 Mineral Tenure Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 29) Hon. R.

Neufeld Statements (Standing Order 25B) .............................................................................................................................. ........... 10274 Preparation by B.C. athletes for 2010 Olympic Winter Games W. McMahon Volunteerism in Burnaby R. Lee Lillooet land and resource management plan D. Chutter Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ....................................................... 10275 B.C. Rail agreement with CN Rail and first nations consultation J. Kwan Hon. G. Plant Hon.

K. Falcon Disciplinary action against Bob Virk and David Basi J. MacPhail Hon. K. Falcon B.C. Rail agreement with CN Rail and first nations consultation P. Nettleton Hon. K. Falcon Tugboat and barge operators labour dispute M. Hunter Hon. G. Campbell Independence of Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform E. Brenzinger Hon. G. Campbell Employment transition services for sex trade workers P. Wong Hon. S.

Hagen Tabling Documents.............................................................................................................. .................................................. 10278 Labour Relations Board, annual report, 2002 Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 10278 Land Survey Statutes Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 17) Hon. G.

Abbott Reporting of Bills ............................................................................................................. ...................................................... 10279 Land Survey Statutes Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 17) Third Reading of Bills......................................................................................................... ................................................... 10279 Land Survey Statutes Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 17) Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................. 10279 B.J.

Field Service Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2004 (Bill Pr401) B. Suffredine

Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 10279 B.J. Field Service Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2004 (Bill Pr401) Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ......................................... 10280 B.J.

Field Service Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2004 (Bill Pr401) Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................. 10280 Education Services Collective Agreement Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 19) Hon. G. Bruce J. MacPhail Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 10285 Wildfire Act (Bill 25) J. MacPhail Hon. M. de Jong J.

Wilson Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ......................................... 10287 Wildfire Act (Bill 25) Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 10287 Estimates: Ministry of Forests (continued) J. MacPhail Hon.

M. de Jong Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................. 10298 Pheidias Project Management

(1979) Corp. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2004 (Bill Pr403) V. Anderson Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 10298 Pheidias Project Management

(1979) Corp. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2004 (Bill Pr403) Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ......................................... 10298 Pheidias Project Management

(1979) Corp. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2004 (Bill Pr403) Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................. 10299 Kidd Resources Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2004 (Bill Pr402) M.

Hunter Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 10299 Kidd Resources Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2004 (Bill Pr402) Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ......................................... 10299 Kidd Resources Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2004 (Bill Pr402) Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 10299 Estimates: Ministry of Forests (continued) J.

MacPhail Hon. M. de Jong

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 10312 Estimates: Ministry of Small Business and Economic Development (continued) J. Kwan Hon. J. Les Estimates: Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services (continued) J. Kwan Hon. M. Coell Estimates: Ministry of Management Services Hon. J. Murray B. Belsey J. Bray

10273 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 The House met at 2:04 p.m. Prayers. Introductions by Members Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, in the House today I am pleased to welcome 15 teachers from across British Co- lumbia who are participating in the Legislative Assem- bly's inaugural B.C. Teachers' Institute on Parliamentary Democracy. The teachers will be with us for the remain- der of this week, expanding their knowledge of both par- liamentary and political systems.

They are joined by five of their peers who are acting as facilitators. [1405] I trust many of you will have the opportunity to meet with the Teachers' Institute participants this evening in the Ned DeBeck Lounge. They are seated in the east gallery, and I would ask everyone to please make them welcome. Hon. M. Coell: Visiting us in the gallery today are prominent Victoria lawyer Gerry Sauder and Victoria businessman Ed Kisling. Would the House please make them welcome. Hon. S. Bond: Today we are delighted to have in the gallery with us a number of eminent scientists.

They are all here today as part of an interactive science fair at the Royal British Columbia Museum, which is being hosted by Genome B.C. and their research partners. Our guests today include Dr. Victor Ling from the B.C. Cancer Agency; Dr. Ben Koop and Dr. Harold Coward from the University of Victoria; Dr. Bob Sindelar; Dr. Jorge Bowen and Dr. Steven Lund from UBC; and Tanya Bennett from Science World. I know the House will join me in making them feel very welcome today. J.

Bray: It's with great pleasure that I rise today to in- form the House of the arrival of a new constituent in my riding, as well as another addition to the Legislative As- sembly family here in Victoria. Wynne MacAlpine, who is a researcher at the office of the Clerk of Committees, gave birth to a baby girl, Gabriella Christine Campbell, on Wednesday, March 31. I would ask that we send con- gratulations to Wynne and her husband, Steve, on this very happy occasion and wish them the best of luck. K.

Krueger: Today in the members gallery I'd like to acknowledge 23 thir d- and fourth-year students from Western Washington University in Bellingham, Wash- ington. A unique feature of the school is the Center for Canadian-American Studies, one of the oldest and most established programs of its kind in the United States and one of the few that offers a major and minor in Canadian studies. The students are here with their professor, the director of the centre, Don Alper. I am very pleased to have had the opportunity to meet with them this morning as they further their study on British Columbia's political system.

Would the House please make them very welcome. R. Stewart: It's my pleasure to welcome the region 1 pastors conference of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. They're having a conference across the street, and I had a chance to meet with many of them this morn- ing. Several are here today in the House. We have Rev. Sandra Kries from Washington, and we have Rev. Carol Kyllingstad, Rev. Vicki Maly, Ethel May Nelson, Rev. John O'Neal and Mrs. Debbie M. O'Neal. The association represents the states of Washington, Idaho, Alaska, Mon- tana and Oregon.

Would the House please join me in wel- coming this conference to Victoria and these representa- tives to this assembly. As well, this morning I met a delegation of Rotarians from Mexico on a group study exchange at the meeting of the Victoria-Harbourside Rotary Club. With us are Octa- vio Hernandez, Jorge David Ibarria, Monica Tiznado, Luz Elena Perez Preciado and Jacinto G. Olivera Orozco. Would the House please welcome them to our city and our country. L. Mayencourt: It's my pleasure to introduce a couple of young gentlemen who are very much involved in pro- vincial and federal politics.

Sameer Ismail and David Burnie from Vancouver are here. I hope the House will make them welcome. [1410] Hon. K. Falcon: Today in the gallery we have some visiting Rotarians from South Africa who are here on an exchange program. Joining them from the host Rotary Club in Aldergrove are Brian Thomison and Angie Mac- Dougall. They are joined by our friends from South Africa Rotary. Team leader is Brian "Bugs" Wilmont. Brian is the director of the South African National Festival of Science, Engineering and Technology.

Brian is joined by Robert Dorrington, a farmer and mi neral water plant owner; Mauritz Bester, the police superintendent in the South African police service; Anthony Mpisi, a deputy school principal and Anglican church lay minister; and finally, Bettina Wyngaard. Bettina is a lawyer and teacher at the local justice institute. I would ask the House to please make them all welcome. Mr. Speaker: H o n . m e m b e r s , w e h a v e t w o s p e c i a l guests from Reynolds Secondary School in Victoria as well. This is the school that provides us with our wonder- ful Pages for the chamber and the precincts.

I'd like you to welcome principal John Harrison and a teacher, Mr. Harry Lewis. Introduction and First Reading of Bills MINERAL TENURE AMENDMENT ACT, 2004 Hon. R. Neufeld presented a message from Her Hon- our the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Mineral Ten- ure Amendment Act, 2004. Hon. R. Neufeld: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved.

10274 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 Hon. R. Neufeld: I am pleased to introduce Bill 29, the Mineral Tenure Amendment Act, 2004. The Mineral Tenure Act is a legislative authority for mineral title acquisition and title main tenance. The amendments introduced in this bill represent a significant change to the province's system for mineral subsurface title ac- quisition and management since it was first established in the mid-1800s.

The changes I am announcing today will establish a new Internet-based map selection system for claim acquisition in B.C. and will authorize an electronic mineral tenure administration system called Mineral Titles Online . Implementation of the new acquisition and tenure administration system is tentatively sched- uled for January 2005. Establishing a new Inte rnet-based map selection system will increase efficiency and certainty of mineral claim acquisition in this province. Map selection is cur- rently used in Quebec, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and Alberta.

The move to on-line title acquisition and maintenance through mineral titles on line will help to increase B.C.'s mineral exploration through convenient and up-to-date access to the land resource data. It will use the government e-portal and e-payment process and is fully compatible with the integrated land and resource registry being developed by the Ministry of Sustainable Resource Manage ment.

All clients will be able to access the new system via personal computer and computer terminals in public libraries and other public facilities at 58 government agent's offices located throughout B.C. and at two provincial title offices. These legislative amendmen ts will also streamline regulations while ensuring ce rtainty of mineral claims acquired in British Columbia. Amendments to the act also eliminate 56 regulatory requirements, resulting in a more streamlined regulatory environment to support the growing mining industry.

A more efficient and streamlined regulatory environment will support growth in the B.C. mining industry. I look forward to passing this legislation and demonstrating our gov- ernment's firm commitment to continued regulatory streamlining and deregulation and to building a strong and prosperous economy for all British Columbians. Mr. Speaker, I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. [1415] Bill 29 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Statements (Standing Order 25

B) PREPARATION BY B.C. ATHLETES FOR 2010 OLYMPIC WINTER GAMES W. McMahon: We're six years away from hosting the 2010 Winter Olympic Games. Excitement for all British Columbians continues to grow as the time gets closer, especially for our yo ung athletes. Their dreams of standing on an Olympic podium and hearing our national anthem playing in their honour became more vivid when, last July, they realized it could happen in their home province. Training for the Olympics takes years and is filled with incredible wins and bi ttersweet losses. It takes a toll on the body and the mind.

Three young people from my constituency are ex periencing that now, set- ting their sights on the 2010 Olympics. One of our local Olympic hopefuls is 19-year-old Christina Lustenber- ger. She is an accomplished alpine skier from Inver- mere and is one of five Olympic-level athletes from across the province to take

part in a ceremony in Van- couver to mark the six-year countdown to the 2010 Olympics. Winning the super G gold medal at the Canadian junior championships and two top ten finishes at the 2003 Pontiac GMC Cup Canadian championships are among the honours that Christina has received so far in her young career. She has faced the ups and downs of her sport. As we speak, she's getting herself back in shape after an injury that en ded her season abruptly in December. But Christina certainly has the ambition to succeed, and she's aiming to compete in the 2006 Win- ter Olympic Games in Torino.

Brendan Hopman and Aaron Christiansen from Kimberley are ranked first and second in their sport — luge. Competing in the 16-an d-under age group, these two are among only 30 active athletes of their kind in C a n a d a . I n F e b r u a r y t h e y t o o k p a r t i n t h e C a n a d i a n national development team trip to Lake Placid for training. The experience on this trip has encouraged Brendan and Aaron to pursue their dream of becoming members of the Canadian junior national team next season. There are other stories of young athletes across the province. I have always said the 2010 story is theirs.

Commitment, focus and determination will help them accomplish their goals. Join me in wishing these three athletes and all young British Columbians the best of luck as they move forward in achieving their dreams. I am looking forward to celebrating with them. VOLUNTEERISM IN BURNABY R. Lee: Yesterday my colleague from Burnaby- Edmonds made an excellent introduction to the House of the Burnaby Festival of Volunteers. Today I would like to provide more information about the festival.

Over 40 non-profit organizat ions will participate in this festival, including Volunteer Burnaby, Volunteer Grandparents, Race Event Volunteers of Vancouver, Burnaby Meals on Wheels, Burnaby Information and Community Services Society, Burnaby Family Life In- stitute, Adoptive Families Association of B.C., Big Brothers of Greater Vancouve r, Elizabeth Fry Society, Sunshine Dreams for Kids, Girl Guides of Canada, Burnaby Hospital auxiliary, Burnaby Coalition to Pre- vent Falls, Canadian Blood Services, Canadian Red Cross RespectED, Down Syndrome Research Founda-

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10275 tion, Neil Squire Foundation, Western Society for Chil- dren with Birth Disorders, Seniors Well Aware Pro- gram, Airspace Action on Smoking and Health, YouthCo AIDS Society, Burnaby Optimist Club, Bur- naby North Lions Club, Royal Air Cadets, Scouts Can- ada, SUCCESS, Chinese Culture Centre of greater Van- couver, Burnaby Chinese Parents Association, South Burnaby Neighbourhood House, Community of Artists Helping Artists Cooperativ e, Burnaby Mountain Man- tas Swim Club, Greater Vancouver Table Tennis Asso- ciation, Vancouver Area Cycling Coalition and the B.C.

Special Olympic Society. All these organizations depend on the generosity of volunteers to continue their extraordinary work in our community. The Light Up Your Life Burnaby festival volunteers will give the public a firsthand look at the vast array of services available close to home, and it will allow these organizations the opportunity to at- tract and recruit new volunteers. My colleague in Burnab y and I are extremely de- lighted to be part of the organizing committee to bring together the first Burnaby Festival of Volunteers.

I must also acknowledge the contribution of the member for New Westminster, whose experience in starting a similar volunteer fair last year in her constituency is invaluable to us. I encourage everyone to come to the Burnaby Brentwood Town Centre th is Saturday. I encourage everyone to enjoy the exciting and colourful entertain- ment, as well as to promote volunteerism at the conclu- sion of the National Volunteer Week. LILLOOET LAND AND RESOURCE MANAGEMENT PLAN D.

Chutter: The Wilderness Committee is hosting an event tonight in Vancouver to raise awareness about the South Chilcotin Mountains protected area, which is in my riding of Yale-Lillooet. [1420] The committee likes to claim this part of my riding is being threatened by the mi ning industry, but that is not true. It is very important that the people of British Columbia understand how this protected area came to be under the previous government and also how my constituents have asked me to ensure there is real con- sensus that balances environmental stewardship with opportunities for working families.

After years of negotiations, the LRMP table pre- sented two land use management recommendations to the previous government and asked them to choose one. The Premier of the day ignored both options and arbi- trarily created a protected area — not a park, as the Wil- derness Committee claims — just before calling an elec- tion. There was no consensus. In fact, people in the re- gion felt betrayed that their input had not been consid- ered. Even the MLA for Yale-Lillooet at the time, a cabi- net member in the previous government, condemned this decision, admitting there was no consensus.

The current Premier and I were asked right after the election to review the plan, and that is exactly what we're doing now. We're taking the time to do it right, consulting with all stakehol ders, and I am hopeful we will see a decision on the LRMP very soon. The challenge is to find a balance. It is extremely important that we protect wildlife and our pristine wil- derness. However, it is also important that we keep op- tions open for resource indu stries such as mining, for- estry and tourism. The people of the Lillooet region want opportunities, and they want jobs.

Those opportu- nities can only come from utilizing the land base and our natural resources. Urban environmentalists often forget this. Opposition leader Carole James has falsely sug- gested that a consensus on the LRMP has been reached and wants this House to endorse her plan. That is not w h a t t h e p e o p l e o f m y r e g i o n w a n t , a n d i n l i g h t o f t o - night's event, the rest of British Columbia should know the full facts about the LRMP, where it stands and what the desired outcome is for the people in my region. Mr. Speaker: That concludes members' statements. Oral Questions B.C.

RAIL AGREEMENT WITH CN RAIL AND FIRST NATIONS CONSULTATION J. Kwan: On Monday of this week the Minister of Transportation told first nati ons that there's absolutely no threat whatsoever to abor iginal rights and title as a result of the sale of B.C. Rail to CN, but we now know from a leaked contract that publicly owned land can be converted to private land owned for CN for only $1. As we know, a first principle of land claims negotiations is that private property is not on the table. To the Attorney General: how can first nations in this province have faith in treaty negotiations when the B.C.

Rail deal explicitly contemplates the conversion of public land to private land? Hon. G. Plant: Well, I am very proud of the fact that in the referendum campaign two years ago, the people of British Columbia said they wanted the prov- ince at the table negotiating on a basis that private property would not be expropriated, and we have kept t o t h a t p r i n c i p l e . W e w i l l k e e p t o t h a t p r i n c i p l e . W e will have treaty success in British Columbia consistent with that principle. We will build certainty.

We will create economic opportunities for British Columbians, because we're doing what the people of British Colum- bia want us to achieve at the treaty tables. Mr. Speaker: The member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a supplementary question. J. Kwan: The Attorney General completely misses the point. That is exactly what this government is do- ing — converting public land to private land through the B.C. Rail deal by sellin g B.C. Rail for $1. The Attor- ney General said on the radio this morning that there is no need for the government to consult with first na-

10276 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 tions about B.C. Rail and its deal because it is, accord- ing to the government, a lease and not a sale. But ac- cording to a legal opinion provided to the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs, the propos ed transfers of land from the Crown to a private company could cause serious problems for treaty negotiations. Will the Attorney General now admit that the gov- ernment does have a legal responsibility to conduct meaningful consultations with first nations prior to the conclusion of the B.C. Rail deal? Hon. G.

Plant: Well, I always appreciate the contri- butions of the Union of B.C. I n d i a n C h i e f s t o t h e d i s - cussion about the treaty process — except they're not part of the B.C. treaty proc ess. If they would actually b e c o m e p a r t o f t h e B . C . t r e a t y p r o c e s s , w e c o u l d s i t down and have the successes at the tables in those parts of the province that we're having in other parts of the province. [1425] Let me be clear. Let me be clear that B.C. Rail and the government will discharge the obligations that arise, if such obligations exist, in respect of this transac- tion.

We know that we have the obligation to respect aboriginal rights and title an d not to infringe on them, and as we move forward with this transaction, we will comply with those obligations. Mr. Speaker: The member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a further question. J. Kwan: Court cases after co urt cases have estab- lished that the province has a legal obligation to con- sult with the first nations community. Clearly, this government has not done its homework on this deal. The Minister of Transportation is running around… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Please, hon. members. Let us hear the question. J.

Kwan: …telling people that he's got buy-in in the deal from first nations based on their participation in the $15 million trust. We now know that that just isn't true. Not only does particip ation in the trust not trans- late into endorsement for th e B.C. Rail deal, but the deal itself throws into doubt… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. J. Kwan: …basic questions of aboriginal title. Will the Minister of Transportation now admit that the par- ticipation of first nations in the trust in no way indi- cates their support for the sale of B.C. Rail to CN? Hon. K. Falcon: I'm happy again to… Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Minister of Trans- portation has the floor. Hon. K. Falcon: …provide some facts to the mem- ber opposite. Yes, I can confirm that. That's never been the case. We've never asked for that. That's never been part of the arrangement with the first nations. All we are doing is providing a $15 million first nations bene- fits trust — a benefits trust that first nations can use to create cultural awareness and educational opportuni- ties, to create economic opportunities.

It's perfectly consistent with the tremendous track record that the Attorney General has demonstrated with economic measure funds that are creating opportunities for first nations right across the province of British Columbia. This continues in that great tradition. DISCIPLINARY ACTION AGAINST BOB VIRK AND DAVID BASI J. MacPhail: When asked yesterday by a reporter to explain why Bob Virk continues to be on the govern- ment payroll, this is what the Minister of Transportation said: "He, Mr.

Virk, is innocent of anything in the eyes of everyone." The minister ha s correctly summed up the first principle of our justice system. But if Mr. Virk is innocent, why is he still suspended — if he is still sus- pended — while Dave Basi, who had the same presump- tion of innocence — of innocence — has been fired? Hon. K. Falcon: I've said to this member before and I'll say to this member again: I'm not discussing per- sonnel issues in this House, and she knows that. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplementary question. J.

MacPhail: Just a few weeks ago the Minister of Transportation had to retract a statement suggesting that the reason Bob Virk was suspended and Dave Basi fired for his role in the police raids on the Legislature was because Martyn Brown had evidence to suggest their behaviour was different. When asked about it later, he insisted — like he's just doing now — that he won't discuss personnel matters. That wasn't the case yesterday in the hallway. He declared him innocent. The minister now says Mr. Virk is innocent. If that's the case, will the Premier put Mr. Virk back to work…? Interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. J. MacPhail: Will the Premier, whose chief of staff is the employer — the boss — of Mr. Virk, put Mr. Virk back to work so that taxpayers can get something for the $63,000 a year they're spending to keep him on payroll? And will he investigate the tens of thousands of dollars of severance pay paid to Mr. Basi, now that we know that Mr. Basi doesn't have the same declara- tion of innocence that Mr. Virk does?

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10277 Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. [1430] B.C. RAIL AGREEMENT WITH CN RAIL AND FIRST NATIONS CONSULTATION P. Nettleton: Further to my question from earlier this week regarding the giveaway sale of B.C. Rail and the concerns raised by the CSTC chief, Harry Pierre….

In his letter I quoted, he goes on to say: "You should be aware that despite the recent amendments to the Brit- ish Columbia Railway (Revitalization) Amendment Act, 2003, or Bill 89, a change in control or a transfer of rail tenures in the absence of the adequate consultation and accommodation with CSTC members is not only vulnerable to a legal challenge but will certainly pass a defective title which would become a liability to the acquiring company." My question is: in this government's desperation to push this deal through, no matter what, has the minis- ter considered the consequences of defective title being passed to CN Rail and the implications not only for CN but also for the provincial government, and its cumula- tive effect on the people of B.C.?

Let's face it: the gov- ernment's B.C. Rail deal stinks. From every angle it was a bad deal when the Premier first suggested it, and it's an even worse deal now. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. P. Nettleton: Will the minister now do the right thing and scrap the deal while he has a chance? Hon. K. Falcon: I'm thinking about what he just said, but I will say this. This member should under- stand that the benefits of this deal are particularly enormous for northern British Columbia.

You know, that member only needs to think about the $135 million northern development initiative that will be controlled by northerners and that will be invested in northerners' future. He has only to th ink about the $17.2 million for the containerization of the port of Prince Rupert and what enormous benefits that's going to bring. He has only to think about the new Hythe-to-Peace River grain transfer that's going to make enormous opportunities. He should be thinking about the regional head office in Prince George, which is going to create enormous op- portunities in Prince George.

It's time, I think, that members like that start look- ing at the $5 billion being invested over the next 90 years and think about where they would come up with the money if they're not going to support the CN in- vestment. TUGBOAT AND BARGE OPERATORS LABOUR DISPUTE M. Hunter: The economic consequences of the cur- rent tugboat and barge operators' strike are affecting British Columbia. They're getting worse by the day. They're particularly acute on islands, including this one. I know that this is a federal jurisdiction and that Ottawa has appointed a mediator, but my question is to the Premier.

Can the Premier tell this House what the province is doing to tr y and make sure this situa- tion is resolved as quickly as possible? Hon. G. Campbell: The strike by 800 tug and barge operators, the Canadian Merchant Service Guild, is already having a substantial impact on about 80 per- cent of the tug and barge services along the B.C. coast. Certainly, it has an impact immediately. People can see that in the cruise industry, in the tourism industry and in our ports. It has been critical that we've had the Min- ister of Transportation in touch with the federal minis- ter.

We have encouraged him to do everything they can to bring the parties together to have this resolved. Put in context for you, Mr. Speaker, it is not just the literally tens of millions of dollars a day that we lose economically. But in the coastal communities, the forest community is finally up and running again. We finally have people back at work again in the forest communi- ties of British Columbia. In fact, there are 100,000 jobs that are at risk if we don't solve this problem right away — in forestry, in mining, in cruises.

We will continue to urge the federal government to act on behalf of British Columbia and, indeed, on behalf of all Canadians. INDEPENDENCE OF CITIZENS' ASSEMBLY ON ELECTORAL REFORM E. Brenzinger: On April 7, at a meeting of the Spe- cial Committee on Electoral Reform, the government Whip, the member for Kamloops–North Thompson, and the member for Vancouver-Kingsway both took very aggressive positions against the work being con- ducted by the independent citizens' assembly. Can the Premier tell us if the views of these two members are reflective of the government's position on this issue?

And, more importantly, will the Premier guarantee that the citizens' assembly will be left to do its work in the independent fashion promised by this Premier in the first place? [1435] Hon. G. Campbell: This government and all the members of this Legislature should be proud that we have appointed a citizens' assembly to determine how British Columbians are going to elect their legislators. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that we remain commit- ted to the principles of the citizens' assembly. We remain committed to the leadership of Jack Blaney .

We rem ain committed to the hundreds of people that are, in fact, at work today, who are spending hours and hours of their time to make sure that British Columbia is leading the way in parliamentary and legislative reform.

10278 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. EMPLOYMENT TRANSITION SERVICES FOR SEX TRADE WORKERS P. Wong: My question is to the Minister of Human Resources. Many prostitutes face tough challenges when they decide to leave the streets and seek safe employment. However, there are many issues involved — physical health, addictio ns, security and training. All these make the transition from the sex trade to em- ployment very difficult.

Can the minister tell the House what services are available to help this group of former sex trade work- ers to reintegrate into society? Hon. S. Hagen: This government certainly does recognize that women who have suffered abuse or have been involved in the sex trade may have a num- ber of barriers to employment and to retraining. That's precisely why this government has created… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The minister has the floor. Hon. S. Hagen: …the bridging employment pro- gram.

That program is deli vered to former workers from the sex trade by two groups called PEERS Victo- ria and PEERS Vancouver. PEERS stands for Prosti- tutes Empowerment Education and Resource Society, and they provide these specialized services. The bridging employment program is an important first step to assist these former sex trade workers to develop the life skills that they will need to move for- ward towards employment, self-reliance and a brighter future. The bridging employment program is part of a $300 million investment that this government has made, which provides a continuum…. Interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. Will the Leader of the Opposition and the Government House Leader please save their debate for later. Hon. S. Hagen: The bridging employment program is part of a $300 million investment that this govern- ment has made to provide a continuum of employment training programs throughout the province. [End of question period.] Tabling Documents Hon. G. Bruce: I have the pleasure to table the annual report of the Labour Relations Board for the year 2002. Mr. Speaker: Government House Leader. Hon. G. Collins: Thank you…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Government House Leader has the floor. Hon. G. Collins: You wouldn't know it, though, Mr. Speaker. Orders of the Day Hon. G. Collins: In this House, I call Committee of the Whole for consideration of Bill 17. In Committee A, I call Committee of Supply. For the information of members, we'll be continuing the estimates of the Min- istry of Small Business and Economic Development. Committee of the Whole House LAND SURVEY STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2004 The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 17; J. Weisbeck in the chair. [1440] The committee met at 2:41 p.m. Sections 1 and 2 approved. On

section 3. Hon. G. Abbott: I move the amendment to

section 3 standing in my name on the orders of the day. [SECTION 3, by deleting the proposed

section 3 and sub- stituting the following: 3

Section 73 of the Land Act, R.S.B.C. 1996, c. 245 , is amended (

a) by repealing subsection (1) and substituting the fol- lowing:

(1) The Corporation of Land Surveyors of the Province of British Columbia may make rules under

section 75 of the Land Surveyors Act for surveys under this Part. , and (

b) in subsection (2) by striking out "Without limiting subsection (1), the" and substituting "The".] On the amendment. Hon. G. Abbott: For the information of members, the original

section 3 of the bill amended

section 73 of the Land Act to enable the Corporation of Land Survey- ors of the Province of British Columbia to make rules for surveys under the Land Act. Currently, it is the surveyor general who is responsible for making regulations for surveys under

part 7. The new

section 3 retains this tran- sition in subsection 73(1) and amends subsection 73(2) to clarify that the surveyor general will continue to have the authority to make regulations for surveys conducted for the purposes of the Nisga'a final agreement. Amendment approved.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10279

Section 3 as amended approved. Sections 4 to 64 inclusive approved. On

section 65. Hon. G. Abbott: I move the amendment to

section 65 standing in my name on the orders of the day. [SECTION 65, by deleting the proposed

section 65 and substituting the following: 65

Section 373.73 is amended (

a) by adding "and" at the end of subsection (1) (

a) and by repealing subsection (1) (b), and (

b) in subsection (2) by striking out "and (b)".] On the amendment. Hon. G. Abbott:

Section 373.73 of the Land Title Act relates to applications fo r first registration of Nis- ga'a lands. The original amendment deleted a require- ment for a plan accompanying an application for first registration to comply with the general survey instruc- tion regulation, which is being repealed, and substi- tuted a requirement that an application be accompa- nied by a plan that complied with standards set by the surveyor general. Subsequent to discussions with representatives of the Nisga'a, we are altering the amendment to remove this requirement. The effect of the change is to simplify the requirements of that

section by requiring that a survey for first registration of Nisga'a lands will have to be accompanied by a plan done by a practising B.C. land surveyor and signed by the surveyor general. The requirement in subsecti on 1(

a) that the survey m u s t b e b y a p r a c t i s i n g B . C . l a n d s u r v e y o r w i l l m e a n t h a t t h e s u r v e y m u s t b e d o n e i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e rules of the Corporation of Land Surveyors. The sur- veyor general will continue to have authority to make any necessary regulations respecting surveys done for the purposes of the Nisga'a final agreement under the amendments to

section 73 of the Land Act discussed earlier. The amendment to subsection (2) simply de- letes references to subsection 1(b), which is being re- pealed. Amendment approved.

Section 65 as amended approved. Sections 66 to 76 inclusive approved. Title approved. Hon. G. Abbott: I move that the committee rise and report the bill complete with amendments. Motion approved. The committee rose at 2:44 p.m. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Reporting of Bills Bill 17, Land Survey Statutes Amendment Act, 2004, reported complete with amendments. Third Reading of Bills Mr. Speaker: When shall the bill be considered as read? Hon. G. Abbott: Now, Mr. Speaker. Leave granted. Bill 17, Land Survey Statutes Amendment Act, 2004, read a third time and passed. [1445] Hon. G.

Bruce: I call second reading of Bill Pr401. Second Reading of Bills B.J. FIELD SERVICE LTD. (CORPORATE RESTORATION) ACT, 2004 B. Suffredine: I move that the bill now be read a second time. This bill is to restore the company B.J. Field Service Ltd., which was struck from the registry November 10, 1989, and cannot carry on business unless restored to the registry, where it's been struck for more than ten years. Motion approved. B. Suffredine: I move that the bill be referred to a Committee of the Whole House to be considered forthwith. Leave granted. Bill Pr401, B.J.

Field Service Ltd. (Corporate Resto- ration) Act, 2004, read a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration forthwith. Committee of the Whole House B.J. FIELD SERVICE LTD. (CORPORATE RESTORATION) ACT, 2004 The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill Pr401; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 2:46 p.m. Sections 1 to 4 inclusive approved.

Preamble approved. Title approved.

10280 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 B. Suffredine: I move that the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment. Motion approved. The committee rose at 2:47 p.m. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Report and Third Reading of Bills Mr. Speaker: When shall the bill be considered as read? B. Suffredine: By leave, now. Leave granted. Bill Pr401, B.J. Field Service Ltd. (Corporate Resto- ration) Act, 2004, reported complete without amend- ment, read a third time and passed. Hon. G. Bruce: I call second reading of Bill 19.

Second Reading of Bills EDUCATION SERVICES COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT AMENDMENT ACT, 2004 Hon. G. Bruce: The Education Flexibility and Choice Act put in place an arbitration process to iden- tify which provisions of the collective agreements were no longer applicable. Eric Rice was appointed to lead that process and, if necessary, rule on any outstanding items. Unfortunately, soon after Mr. Rice began the hearings, the British Columbia Teachers Federation withdrew from the process and refused to participate further. Because of that, the process went ahead with- out them.

At the end of it all, the arbitrator developed a list of all the sentences and paragr aphs in those 60 collective bargaining agreements that were in conflict with the amended School Act. The arbitration was challenged in court. However, the court upheld the validity of the legislation that removed class size from collective agreements, of course, which is now in the School Act, and the arbitrator's authorit y to make changes to col- lective agreements. That was never in question. The court disagreed with the arbitrator, Mr.

Rice, who is now a Supreme Court judge, over his interpre- tation of the legislation in amending the collective agreements. It said the arbi trator should have worked with the parties to try to rewrite sections that were only partly in conflict with the School Act. It was entirely on this basis that the court ordered the arbitration set aside. [1450] The court decision left the government with a lim- ited number of options. Government could appeal the decision, probably at significant time and cost to the taxpayers. However, it is unlikely that an appeal would have been heard and decided before 2005.

In the mean- time, it would not be possible to negotiate renewals of collective agreements set to expire June 30 of this year. Another option would have been restarting the arbitra- tion process, would requir e the appointment of a new arbitrator and would also be unlikely to bear fruit be- fore June 30. As you'll recall, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Rice was the fourth arbitrator appointed to deal with this process. Given that one party has simply refused to participate, it's questionable how productive the exercise of going through another arbitrator to deal with these issues would have been.

In the meantime, teacher grievances would continue to create uncertainty in the school sys- tem for parents, administrators, teachers and students. The Education Services Collective Agreement Amendment Act represents the best alternative avail- able to government. It removes those contract provi- sions identified by Eric Rice as being in conflict with the School Act. At the same time, this bill finalizes con- tracts so that the parties can begin working on negotiat- ing new agreements in 2004, if they choose to do so.

In all these discussions, it 's easy enough to lose sight of the fact that what we are here for is to ensure that we have a stable, responsive and, above all, ac- countable public educational system. Finalizing terms of collective agreements be tween teachers and public school employers is one step, but a very necessary step, toward bringing the stability that our children very much need in order to excel in our schools. I would move second reading. J.

MacPhail: Bill 19, Education Services Collective Agreement Amendment Act, 2004, will be voted against in strong opposition by my colleague the mem- ber for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant and me. It was interesting that in question period today, one of the members of the Liberal government caucus stood up and asked a very soft question of the Premier: "What are you going to do about…? Can you update us on the tugboat operators dispute?" Of course, it was easy for the Premier to get up and express hope for a settlement, because it's a federal matter and something he himself hasn't the ability to have any influence over.

It's true that it's very harmful to our economy, the tugboat operators strike, but isn't it interesting how the Premier hopes that other juri sdictions will reach a ne- gotiated solution? Yet this government uses every op- portunity to say to working people, "Your rights are going to be overridden, trampled upon with our mas- sive legislative majority," an d that's exactly what Bill 19, the Education Servic es Collective Agreement Amendment Act, does.

It is just another in a continuing line of examples of the heavy hand of this Liberal government coming down hard and furious on hard-working British Co- lumbians through their use — the inappropriate, heavy-handed, draconian use — of this Legislature. This bill was introduced yesterday, barely 24 hours ago, and here we are debating it at second reading. I

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10281 expect they'll ram it through committee stage tomor- row. Not one single person has had the opportunity to properly examine this legislation. Certainly, educators didn't know this piece of legislation was coming. It is just shameful. I expect the Minister of Labour in his usual facile manner will stand up and say: "Relax. It's only two pages. What's to absorb?" Yes, the bill is only two pages.

It's only a few sections in length, but the conse- quences of this legislation are to delete, eradicate, wipe out over 400 articles and cl auses in collective agree- ments for teachers across this province, to eradicate with the stroke of a pen over 400 negotiated clauses from a collective agreement. Why are this government an d this minister in such a rush? I'm sure it's because they're embarrassed, and so they should be. They don't want this piece of legisla- tion to sit out there too long. Bill 19 is just another ex- ample of this government's conflict-and-confrontation style of dealing with B.C.'s teachers.

It makes a mock- ery out of the Premier's answ er this afternoon in ques- tion period about the tugboat operators' dispute. It makes a mockery out of it. [1455] You know, Mr. Speaker, I thought to myself after the cabinet shuffle, well, maybe now with a new Minis- ter of Education, the government is going to get over its arrogant approach to teachers. My thoughts were reflected in all sorts of letters to the editor expressing relief that there was a new Minister of Education.

Peo- ple said in their letters to the editor that maybe now real discussions and cooperation could break out, could occur in the interests of students. However, we see with this piece of legislation, Bill 19, that the new Minister of Education can't really do anything even if he wanted to. The arrogant approach wasn't limited to the former Minister of Education, who is now the Minister of Children and Family De- velopment. This entire government, including the new Minister of Education, shares that arrogant approach, and Bill 19 proves it.

In fact, the new Minister of Education should be ashamed of the heavy-handedness of this legislation. What does Bill 19 do? Well, it reaches a new high of arrogance by this Liberal government. It erases a deci- sion of the B.C. Supreme Cour t. There's a whole list of people who have had wrath brought down upon their heads by this government through their legislative hammer because the government didn't like the way things were going. But this is a new level of arrogance. They're wiping out our judi ciary system. They're say- ing: "Oh, gosh.

We don't want to bother with judicial procedures when we've got 74 people inside the Legis- lature that can just raise their hands and do the gov- ernment's bidding." That's what we have — Bill 19, a new height of arrogance, giving the old heave-ho to judicial process. Bill 19 says the government doesn't agree with the B.C. Supreme Court, so we're going to legislate the effect of that decision out of existence.

Instead of doing what every other group in society in this province has to do, who doesn't have 74 sheep to follow and raise their hands to support a draconian measure of gov- ernment, and instead of do ing what every other group has to do and go to the Court of Appeal when they disagree with a B.C. Supreme Court decision, the Min- ister of Labour, the Minister of Education and all this government caucus decided they'd just legislate the B.C. Supreme Court ruling as irrelevant. How's that for arrogance?

Bill 19 removes from teacher collective agreements critical negotiated protections for students and teachers related to class size, services for special needs students and specialty services of counsellors, librarians and ESL teachers. Those deletion s will be retroactive to January 2002. Thank God the retroactivity can't take away the benefit that students have had from all of those educator services of smaller class sizes, of ser- vices for special needs students.

Thank God this gov- ernment doesn't have the ability to eradicate the suc- cess that our students have benefited and achieved under those clauses in the collective agreement. I just want to look at a little bit of history here. This contract-stripping exercise began when the govern- ment appointed arbitrator Eric Rice, and Mr. Rice made several deletions from the collective agreement of teachers in August 2002. The B.C. Teachers Federation then took the ruling for judi cial review and asked the court to rule on several points.

The Minister of Labour in his opening remarks said that one party refused to participate. The court took that into account when the Supreme Court looked at Mr . Eric Rice's arbitration decision. [1500] The B.C. Supreme Court did rule against the B.C. Teachers Federation on some points, but the court ul- timately quashed arbitrator Rice's decision. Justice Shaw ruled that Mr. Rice should have used the princi- ple of harmonization to try and reconcile the differ- ences between what the government wanted and what the collective agreements sa id. Mr.

Justice Shaw took into account the procedure that occurred during Mr. Rice's arbitration hearings an d still ruled on that very important principle, the principle of harmonization. Because of that failed application of the principle of harmonization, Justice Shaw stated that Mr. Rice's work was fundamentally flaw ed.

He stated that there were fundamental errors on "points of law that are of importance to the education system of British Colum- bia, including the teachers , the school boards and the students." However, fundamental errors in law don't seem to matter to this government so long as they can get what they want — so long as they can count on 74 votes from their governme nt caucus Liberal MLAs, who just march in lockstep to this draconian measure. Bill 19 will implement in its entirety the arbitrator's fundamentally flawed work. It's right there in

section 5 of this legislation: "

(1) Despite any decision of a court to the contrary made before or after the coming into force of this section, (

a) the deletion under

section 1…is deemed to have taken effect on July 1, 2002." Wow. How's that?

10282 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 You know, Mr. Speaker, in a democracy, the judi- cial system is a cornerstone. Now this government, by fiat, is wiping out a cornerstone of democracy by say- ing not only that the judiciary will be taken into ac- count in previous decisions but that if someone has the arrogance to take this government to court after this legislation, that ruling won't apply either. So much for judicial review. I wonder if this government is willing to give Brit- ish Columbians that right — to disallow this govern- ment the opportunity for judicial review.

I wonder what the families of autistic children would say. Would they like the right to take away the opportunity of judi- cial review from this government? Is this government going to allow the families of autistic children that right so that the court decision upholding their right to services and benefits stands? No. This government isn't going to do that, because maybe that would take away their protection to ignore the promises they made to the families of autistic children.

Maybe then they'd actually have to deliver the services that they promised to autistic children during the last election, if this gov- ernment's right to judicial review were wiped out through legislation. Oh no, I don't expect this government's going to do that. I don't think they're going to say: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." No, no. They're go- ing to use their heavy hand to take away rights from tens of thousands of teachers so that they can get on with having their way in undermining the education system.

Maybe the Minister of Educa tion can take this bill to all social studies 11 classes in the province and ex- plain to them how the executive, legislative and judi- cial branches of government in Canada work. Maybe the Minister of Labour would like to do that. Maybe the Premier would like to do that. I dare him to go to a social studies 11 course and explain, with this legisla- tion, how those three branches of government now work under this B.C. Liberal regime. [1505] The Minister of Education surely should do that, be- cause with the help of the Minister of Labour, he has just said that the B.C.

Liberal government does not care for or respect decisions of the court or the judicial process. It's very interesting that on a day we have teachers here promoting parliamentary democracy — the very day they are here — this government is undermining a ba- sic tenet of democracy like we've never seen before. I know what the Liberals will do. They'll just re- write the social studies 11 curriculum, bring it into leg- islation and pass it according to the Liberal view of the tenets of democracy in this province. "Arrogance over good governance." That's the motto of this B.C. Liberal government.

Bill 19 ensures that there can be no contractual guar- antees of class size limits, no contractual guarantees of services to students with special needs. There can be no support from specialist teachers in B.C. schools. Isn't that a nice contribution to education? They're legislating what can't happen to support our children. Teachers will no longer have the right to bargain for such issues. The government will merely dictate. How's that for a hal- cyon day in education in this province? These contractual guarantees were put in place to protect learning conditions for children. It's not just about class sizes.

Here are some examples of contrac- tual provisions that will be stripped, made illegal, un- der Bill 19. From the Kamloops-Thompson collective agreement: "Clear administra tive procedures shall be established for the carrying out of fire and earthquake drills that expedite the evacua tion and care of students with special needs." That's gone. That's illegal now. I can hardly wait to have the government explain why that's illegal. No provisio ns are now allowed for stu- dents with special needs who may have to do a fire drill.

Gee, I can hardly wait for the member for Kamloops– North Thompson to stand up and explain why these provisions aren't important. Fire drills. This from the member whose community was hit so hard by forest fires last year, where I saw for- est fire devastation come right up to the doors of schools…. I was there. I saw it — right up to the doors of schools. Thank God the sch ools weren't in session. Thank God. We don't have that guarantee this year.

Here's one from the Cariboo-Chilcotin collective agreement: "The placement of a student with special needs shall be determined by the student's intellectual, emotional and physical needs." That's gone. That's ille- gal now — illegal. I can't wait for the member for Cari- boo South to stand up and explain why students with special needs should have special consideration for placement. Here's a good one from the Qualicum collective agreement.

This is now illegal: "Where safety is a fac- tor, the number of students in a laboratory, shop or other specialized class shall not exceed the number for which the facility is designed." That's illegal now. I'm not even sure if the member for Alberni-Qualicum could explain why that is not important, even if she tried. Safety standards are now illegal. I bet you the Liberal caucus is just bursting with pride over this legislation, just bursting with pride — not. [1510] Teachers have worked hard at the bargaining table to ensure services for students are available and ade- quate.

However, this government is determined to make it illegal for teachers to include provisions that protect the education and safe ty of our students in the bargaining process. It does not make any sense for a government that claims students are their number one priority. There is not one aspect of this legislation that makes sense or gives any sustenance to that claim by this government. Not only is this government increasing class sizes, but they are mak- ing it harder for teachers to offer an adequate, let alone improved, learning environment in our schools. Let's just see what a few teachers have to say.

Let's start with a teacher from Surr ey. This is directly from a teacher in Surrey: "As a resource teacher I had a caseload of ten learning-disabled students. Without caseload limits that

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10283 number ballooned to 60 students last year, without rec- ognition of differing learning styles and needs. "Learning-disabled, MID, English as a second lan- guage, behaviour- and learning-assistance students were 'lumped together' in groups for support instruction. The groups were so big, instruction had little more individual focus than the classroom. The variety of needs and learn- ing styles in each group also impacted heavily on the de- livery of service to my students.

"Stripping the contract really messed up instruction for the students I work with." From a teacher in Vancouver: "Five of my seven classes currently have over 30 stu- dents. I have severely learning-disabled students mixed into these large classes with only one special education assistant and a district resource teacher in a school of over 2,000 students. That's one half-time teacher provid- ing support to over 50 identified designated students. "That means each student can expect approximately 15 minutes a week of individualized attention from a qualified special education teacher.

I still provide an ade- quate education to the students who are average stu- dents, but any exceptional student is not getting the level of education they have a right to as set out by the Charter of Rights." Another one from a teacher in Nanaimo. The teacher is addressing the issue of larg er class size. He says that he has 31 children in a room built for a maximum of 30. Mr. Speaker, I met with some teachers at a school in my riding last week, and the grade 7 teacher said that his classroom is so full he gave up his desk. He had to move his desk out. He wasn't complaining about that.

There is no teacher desk anymore because there was no room for it, but the space he had taken over to lay out his materi- als on a ledge also now had to be taken over by a stu- dent, because of his class size. The next quote comes from a teacher in Chilliwack: "Quality teaching has been replaced with quantity teach- ing. There is less time to focus on the needs of children." Finally, from a teacher on the Sunshine Coast: "There has been a decimation of services to special education students. Our teacher assistan ce time has been halved.

More than half of the academic classes in my school are now over 31 students, with some as high as 35." [1515] Not only is the governme nt bypassing the judicial process and ignoring a deci sion of the B.C. Supreme Court, but they are making it more difficult for teachers to negotiate better and safer learning conditions in our schools. This government does not respect the courts, and it does not respect what the teachers do in our province. One can only come to the conclusion, then, that this government does not respect or care for stu- dents. Mr.

Speaker: On second reading of Bill 19, the min- ister closes debate. Hon. G. Bruce: Several things, as I listen to the Leader of the Opposition, in respect to tugboat strike issues and labour relations in this province. It really shouldn't go unno ticed that during the past few years, we've actually had a fair modicum of labour peace. In the year 2000 there were 88 strikes in British Columbia. In 2002 there were 18, and in 2003 there were eight. You can go to the other side of that, and you can take a look at what has been negotiated.

There have been 35 negotiated public sector collective agree- ments in this province. Actu ally, when you go through the whole aspect of things, you find that historically speaking, these past three years have probably been some of the quietest, most peaceful in respect to labour relations. However, there are times when things occur that you have to deal with.

This piece of legislation deals with a situation where you had an appointment of an arbitrator that stemmed from the initial piece of legisla- tion in 2002 to take a look at what was in the legislation that was passed, and then the 60 other collective agreements through the province — I think it was 62, specifically — and to make sure there was consistency in the language. At any rate, the first arbitrator I appointed was one who was actually on the list that the parties in the past had agreed to.

As they started, it became fairly obvious that the British Columbia Teachers Federation was not going to accept the first arbitrator. But they did accept his suggestion of the second arbitrator. So I accepted the resignation of the first arbitrator and then ap- pointed the second individual, who both parties had agreed to. Shortly thereafter, the British Columbia Teachers Federation objected to that individual. Being a man of patience, I said: "That's fine." I appointed a third arbi- trator. It was found that the third arbitrator actually….

There was a concern expressed of conflict because his wife had been a teacher. The British Columbia Teachers Federation objected to that individual to be the arbitra- tor. So over time, I finally found a fourth individual who would accept the job, and that was Mr. Rice. Now, Mr. Rice isn't just any come-by gentleman along the street. He actually now is on the bench; he is a B.C. Supreme Court justice. In working the process through, I thought that I'd demonstrated a fair amount of patience in a process which really was, from the perspective of the B.C. Teachers Federation, being quite obstructive.

But at any rate, we then had a gentleman that was there to hear the case, and the B.C. Teachers Federation refused to take

part in the process. I think they attended the first meeting and then left. The other thing that I think is important to note at this time in the pieces of legislation that were brought in 2002 is that this minister was given the responsibility to try and work with the parties to develop a new structure for negotiating in this province between teachers and the province. As the Leader of the Oppo- sition knows, even with her time in the House in gov- ernment, they, too, had diffi culty reaching settlements with the teachers. [1520] It actually crosses all governments — the difficulty of reaching negotiated settl ements with teachers. In fact, you can see it across Canada. You can see it as a

10284 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 worldwide trend. Regardless of political consideration of the government of the day, there has been a chal- lenge to find a way to reach negotiated settlements. I embarked upon a cour se with the BCTF, the school trustees and the Principals and Vice-Principals Association to see whether there was an appetite to develop a new negotiating structure. The parties told me there was, so I embarked on finding an individual who would best be able to bring the parties together and try and develop a new process.

He was a former Deputy Minister of Educati on the parties agreed to, Mr. Don Wright, and he is doing his work. At that time and in subs equent meetings, the British Columbia Teachers Federation said to me that they hoped my instituting this process of developing a new negotiating structure wouldn't delay or restrict them from being able to move ahead with negotiating for their new contract, which no rmally starts about this period of time in the year, because their contract ex- pires on June 30, 2004.

The Teachers Federation, as the Leader of the Opposition has stated and as I have men- tioned earlier on, took this particular

section — this legislation — to court and challenged it. What you are actually talking about is the interpre- tation between the justice of the day that heard this case, Justice Shaw, and the arbitrator, Mr. Rice, who is now a Supreme Court justice but wasn't then, in how one ought to go about hear ings and the harmonization process. It was Mr. Rice's

interpretation that he had to delete everything that had anything to do with those issues that were in contrave ntion of or not consistent with the legislation. Justice Shaw said that no, he should have spent more time and found ways to har- monize, because as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, there are certain words and things in there that would be deleted and that didn't reflect on the actual legislation. I would point out, though , since the Leader of the Opposition said it was illegal to do so in those situa- tions, that it's not illegal to do so.

The schools can still conduct those types of exercises that are necessary for safety and protection. It hardly needs to be construed or spun out or spelled out in a contract. At the same time, it also can be renegotiated into a contract. It was the determination of this government that class size, as important as it is, ought to be in the School Act as op- posed to being an item that was negotiated each and every time at the negotiatin g table. When we brought in the legislation of Bills 27 and 28, we put the class size in the School Act, so there is protection in that respect.

The options that government and I as minister in charge had to deal with the situation as it is today, I mentioned earlier on. I would just like to repeat. I could have gone to appeal. I could have recommended t o g o v e r n m e n t t h a t w e g o t o a n a p p e a l o f t h e j u d g e ' s decision. That would have b een costly and timely. Fair enough. It would then also have put us in a situation where, when I had the specif ic request by the BCTF to be able to embark upon negotiations in this upcoming year, they would not have been able to do that because the past contract was not in place. So I took that….

J. MacPhail: Why didn't you tell them that? Hon. G. Bruce: I did. I took that into consideration. I even…. Interjection. Hon. G. Bruce: Yes. I even wrote the people at the bargaining table, all of them — the British Columbia Teachers Federation, BCPC and the B.C. School Trus- tees Association — to make them aware that they could go ahead and start negotiations if they chose to. In re- spect to the upcoming end of the collective agreement on June 30 of this year, I took that into consideration. The other thing I could have done was appoint a fifth arbitrator. I don't…. Interjection. Hon. G. Bruce: That's right.

Interjection. Hon. G. Bruce: No, we do. In fact…. Interjection. [1525] Hon. G. Bruce: You have to make choices. You have to make difficult choices. I think this is an impor- tant point. The difference between the Leader of the Opposition's time in government and our time in gov- ernment is that you never made any difficult choices. You actually just gave away the farm. You took this province and actually drove it into the ground. In fact, what this government is doing is making difficult choices. This is a difficult choice. I'm not…. J. MacPhail: You're not making a choice. Hon. G.

Bruce: It's absolutely making a choice. We could have done one, two or three different things, and we chose, at the end of the day, because of the fact that we would have then had to go through an appointment process of a fifth arbitrator. I have no confidence that I would have had any greater success in appointing the fifth arbitrator in respect to a relationship with the BCTF… Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. G. Bruce: …than I did in getting to the fourth arbitrator.

That would have taken time to go through that whole process one more time — of working through all 60 contracts when I know of the eagerness of the B.C. Teachers Federation to get on with negotiat- ing this next contract. Or I could have made the deci- sion, as I did, to bring in a piece of legislation, which is really past history, to put into effect that which the

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10285 arbitrator, through his deliberations, had come to un- dertake. He had gone through the contracts and elimi- nated what he found to have been inconsistent with the legislation and, by doing that, brought some resolution to this — not allowing for extended grievances to take place on past legislation but being able to now deal with the legislation that's in effect today. That is all this bill does. It's not an attack on demo- cracy. It's not disrespectful to the courts.

It is, in effect, actually dealing with reality where you finally get to a point when you have to look at a situation where there really hasn't been the spirit to come through the processes that were made available through this legislation — through an arbitrator, through Bill 28, through this arbitrator — t o b e a b l e t o h a v e t h e p a r t i e s c o m e t o - gether and deal with the issue in a responsible manner. I took a look at what was done here and have ac- cepted the arbitrator's rulin gs on these things.

In hav- ing read the decision by Justice Shaw, I understand very clearly the effect and what, in respect, he was say- ing. With that, we brought in this particular piece of legislation so that we can move ahead and get on with the parties being able to negotiate a new contract. With that, I move seco nd reading of Bill 19. [1530-1535] Second reading of Bill 19 approved on the follow- ing division: YEAS — 41 Coell Les L.

Reid Brice Hansen Bruce Santori Bray Wilson Lee Murray Plant Bond de Jong Harris Neufeld Cobb Jarvis Anderson Hogg Nuraney Nebbeling Hunter Chutter Long Mayencourt Trumper Johnston Bennett Krueger McMahon Locke Nijjar Bhullar Wong Halsey-Brandt Bloy Suffredine Sultan Sahota Kerr NAYS — 4 MacPhail Kwan Brenzinger Lekstrom Hon. G. Bruce: Mr. Speaker, I move that the bill be referred to a Committee of the Whole House at the next sitting after today.

Bill 19, Education Services Collective Agreement Amendment Act, 2004, read a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the House after today. Hon. G. Bruce: I call committee stage on Bill 25. Committee of the Whole House WILDFIRE ACT The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 25; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 3:39 p.m. K. Johnston: I seek leave to make an introduction. Leave granted. Introductions by Members K. Johnston: Joining us behind and just leaving now in the gallery are 75 grade 10 students from Kil- larney Secondary School in the riding of Vancouver- Fraserview. I'm delighted to welcome them here today. They're being accompanied by Ms. Janet Nichol, Mr. Glyn Howell, Mr. Cox and Mr. Truman. Would the House please make them very welcome. [1540] Debate Continued On

section 1. J. MacPhail: Mr. Chair, thank you for allowing me the opportunity on this debate. We have actually exam- ined the legislation, and as I said in my opening re- marks, we support it. I have operational questions resulting from budget that the minister and I are dealing with in estimates, not the legislation stuff. Th e debate around the opera- tional requirements will ta ke place in estimates, and therefore I support this legislation. Hon. M. de Jong: I think there are questions from the member for Cariboo North that might best be dealt with under

section 6, so I wonder if we might go there. Sections 1 to 4 inclusive approved. On

section 5. J. Wilson: On

section 5, the non-industrial use of fires. I'm wondering if the minister would maybe ex- pound on this a little bit. The non-industrial use of fire, I assume, would include campfires. In here it says that unless in prescribed circumstances, you cannot have a fire within one kilometre of combustible material. Could the minister enlighten me on that? Hon. M. de Jong: The member has seized on a pretty fundamentally impo rtant component of this

10286 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 legislation.

Whereas under the previous statutory pro- visions governing fire and fire-related matters under the Forest Practices Code…. Those provisions essen- tially covered industrial forest activity, licensees. This act has a far broader application to anyone in the forest. The first issue that arises from the member's ques- tion is the fact that it does relate to campfires. It does relate to people involved in recreational use of our back country, of our forest resource. That's a key dis- tinction, and it's not just forest companies that need to be aware of these provisions and whose behaviour is governed by this act.

It's all of us who are in the forest. [1545] J. Wilson: Okay, we have the definition sorted out. How will this affect people who go out, say, to recreate for a weekend, and they go into a campsite and wish to have a campfire in the evening? How will this legisla- tion impact those recreational users? Hon. M. de Jong: This is also an important point. At a practical operational level, there should be no dif- ference whatsoever. People will still go out into the woods. They need to familiarize themselves with any burning restrictions that are in place.

They need to conduct themselves responsibly, not be stupid about…. They need to be aware that if they are careless insofar as putting their campfire ou t, there are rules that will be prescribed in the regula tions. There are potential liability issues. All of those are largely commonsense issues that exist now. What this act does is bring them all together under one roof, as it were. The idea is still to provide people with every opportunity to go out, sit around the campfire and have a cup of cocoa, as I know the mem- ber does occasionally — and nothing stronger than that.

All of those enjoyable opportunities will remain.

Section 5 approved. The Chair: Member, do you have any further ques- tions to any part of the bill? What section, member? J. Wilson:

Section 6. On

section 6. J. Wilson: In

section 6 it says "except in prescribed circumstances" and goes on to define where you can light a fire for industrial activity, which includes slash burning, I believe, and agricultural burning. It says: "…within 1 km of forest land or grass land." Now, in t h e C a r i b o o i t ' s v e r y d i f f i c u l t t o b e i n a n a r e a w h e r e you are more than one kilometre away from forested land. Could the minister maybe enlighten me as to what is meant by "prescribed circumstances"? Hon. M. de Jong: The first thing I will emphasize is that the capability to engage in the activity contem- plated by

section 6 still remains, so there's no differ- ence there. What it says, however, and confirms is that in order to engage in that slash-burn type of activity, you'll have to abide by the regulations that will be in place. They will, by and large, be similar to what they have been, although in a couple of cases we have tried to simplify those regulations. They will be available for review. You'll need to get a permit, similar to what you must do today. There will be an ability to get an exemption in unique circumstances where there might be a burning ban in effect. There are exceptional circumstances. You'll be able to get an exemption. The

section creates the authority by which the regulations associated with this activity will be create d, but the regulations won't be appreciably different, albeit marginally less compli- cated to read. [1550] J. Wilson: At another point in my life I spent the better part of a year working with the agricultural indus- try, streamlining the burnin g process. We had some measurable results there. We went from having to have an on-site inspection to….

Actually, over the last four or five years, it has come down now to where there is a set of regulations in place that describe what you need on hand and how far away you should be from combustible material — this kind of thing. In order to enact this, you simply pick up the phone and dial a number. Now, I am wondering…. The minister has indicated that we maybe have simplified it a little more.

In February and the better part of March in my rid- ing, there has been an ad on the radio every day or two stating that anyone burning agricultural debris, wood material or even slash must submit a burning plan for what they want to do, effective in March. As well, when the burning is to take place, they must phone the num- ber they were required to before. These burning plans include all slash burning for small business sales or the timber sale program, and I assume the majors do the same thing. Anyone doing agricultural burning must also now submit a burning plan to get it approved. Is this part of Bill 25?

Is it part of the regulations that the bill has brought in, or is it something different that is being brought into that forest district and not other for- est districts out there? Can the minister help me there? Hon. M. de Jong: I appreciate the member's ques- tion because it does suggest that there is a changed procedure. What I took from the member's question is that something is being requir ed this spring, this year, that wasn't required in the past. He is nodding to indi- cate that is so.

That is of interest to me because it is certainly not a result of this act or the regulation, nei- ther of which has actually been proclaimed into effect yet. So if that is taking place, it is taking place pursuant to the existing legislative regime. It sounds to me as if it is something unique to that district, and if that is the case, then I hope the member will indulge me in trying to ascertain what the specific nature of the change is, the rationale for it and the authority for it. Sections 6 to 104 inclusive approved.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10287 Title approved. Hon. M. de Jong: I move the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment. Motion approved. The committee rose at 3:55 p.m. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Report and Third Reading of Bills Bill 25, Wildfire Act, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed. Hon. M. de Jong: I call Committee of Supply, the estimates for the Ministry of Forests, in this House. Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 3:56 p.m.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF FORESTS (continued) On vote 24: ministry operations $393,292,000 (con- tinued). J. MacPhail: Why is the deputy minister paid as much as he or she is? Just kidding. I just want to outline for the minister where I'm going to go in my estimates. We're talking about the fires now. I'm next going to go to bark beetles and de- foliators, then sustainability , first nations, recreation, and then some letters from various people around the province that are sort of like a bit of casework. My question was on fires.

We'd had a good discus- sion about the money, the announcement that the Pre- mier made on the weekend. I'm wondering whether the minister is aware whether any other level of gov- ernment has made a commitment with regard to fund- ing for fire season preparation or combatting it. Hon. M. de Jong: This will be anecdotal. While I'm answering this, perhaps the officials will investigate whether there has been anything more formal. I know that I have met with communities who have invested in planning around interface preparation. An example I would use is Logan Lake, who have devel- oped a plan.

They are in need of some funding assis- tance to help execute that plan. They have indicated a willingness to invest themselves in the implementation of the plan. They are modest dollars — modest dollars for the overall cost of the plan, but also modest dollars that Logan Lake would invest, obviously, if there were some assistance. They will now, pursuant to what has taken place in the last week, interact with the UBCM to try to access some of the $3 million that has been made available. That's but one example. I know other communities have done similar things.

That's an example of another level of government that has invested. I think perhaps, as I begin to answer this question, the member might have also been referring to federal involvement in this matter. If that's the case, I' ll carry on and talk about that. [1600] It's a timely question, because there are a number of things taking place. In fact , officials are meeting in Ed- monton this day as part of the Council of Forest Minis- ters and the national forest protection service adminis- tered out of the federal Department of Natural Re- sources. NRCan is, I think, the abbreviation they now use.

The provinces have been working, or endeavouring to work, with the federal government to look at a number of features related to our national prepared- ness, and the proposals have taken various titles. Al- most the most recent one was something called the five-point plan. It is a plan designed to address every- thing from air fleet renewal to meteorological services to information exchanges, data exchanges and scientific exchanges. It is a whole package.

It has been the subject of discussion for the three ye ars I have attended meet- ings with the other provinces and the federal govern- ment at the ministerial level. I'll say to the member that part of the frustration at this point is that it hasn't amounted to much. The sums of money are pretty significant — in its original manifestation, beyond a billion dollars over a ten-year period. The biggest component of that relates to air fleet renewal, and that is admittedly a very costly project — I think upwards of $800 million or $900 mil- lion. We're continuing to pursue it. There's a new federal minister.

We met with him. I believe it was February. There have been subsequent meetings. Officials within the British Columbia Forest Service are chairing a committee aimed at trying to coordinate our efforts with the other provinces. We're working particularly with Alberta and Ontario and Saskatchewan, and we're having another go to try to get the kind of support we need across the provinces and with the federal gov- ernment. Anyway, that's a start. We may want to probe fur- ther into the specifics of the proposal. J.

MacPhail: Could the minister direct me to whom I should be asking questions about compensation for the victims of the fires of 2003? Interjection. J. MacPhail: From the federal government. Hon. M. de Jong: Through the magic of technology, rather than guess, I'll try and ascertain who the correct

10288 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 official is coordinating from the federal side. Different components of it are dealt with differently. For exam- ple, as it relates to military involvement, there's the Canadian Forces. I think the member is talking about compensation to property ow ners or compensation to business owners within…. Th ere's a clear line of au- thority provincially. While we 're having this exchange, I'll endeavour to find out who quarterbacks that — even which department quarterbacks that — at the federal level. J.

MacPhail: The corollary to that question is: who does that federal person liaise with on the provincial side? [1605] Now, a brief discussion. We left off yesterday at the end of estimates talking about the Convair air tankers. I just want to clarify this again. The minister has ac- knowledged that it's your standard lease. We're not purchasing them. Actually, I' ve always thought it was better to lease. We will lease two more Convair air tankers. Could the minister explain to me and the pub- lic: how does the protocol work?

If we have air tankers that have been leased to British Columbia, and forest fires break out in both British Columbia and areas where we have a protocol arrangement of reciprocal rights to equipment, how do es that then unfold in terms of access to those air tankers? [H. Long in the chair.] Hon. M. de Jong: Let me start here. In the scenario the member has described, which is a common scenario — that's precisely why the protocol exists — where we are the leaseholder of the aircraft, we have the first option. It's not even an option. They are our aircraft, a n d i f w e n e e d t h e m , w e u s e t h e m .

I f w e f i n d i n t h a t scenario that we are still short of aircraft — and that was the case last year — we make a request pursuant to the protocol to the Canadian interagency forest pro- tection service in Winnipeg, which essentially does a search for us — what's available, what's out there and what we can draw on. The ra tes are set. The cost is known. The opposite is also true.

If we're sitting here and it's pouring rain for three weeks, and all hell is break- ing loose in Quebec, and we've got aircraft on the ground doing nothing, Quebec officials would make a similar request and then have the option of utilizing the aircraft that we don't require. If, however, we get to a situation where the situation changes, we have the right to bring those aircraft back for the use that we need to make of them. J. MacPhail: Who makes that judgment? Who makes that call in the protocol about recalling? Hon.

M. de Jong: That call would be made by the senior fire officer within the protection branch, and there is a 24-hour notifica tion. In the scenario we've described, the province of Quebec would get 24-hour notice from B.C. that we're needing to recall our air- craft. J. MacPhail: The Filmon report states: "The provin- cial government should lead the development of a stra- tegic plan in cooperation with local government to im- prove fire prevention in the interface through fuel management." That's a recommendation.

The minister talked about the UBCM having re- ceived $3 million from the provincial government for various activities. How does that money get used in a way that the Filmon report recommendation is achieved — the one I've just read out? Hon. M. de Jong: I think it's a combination of things. Part of it is the planning exercise. That is not just a function of going out there and burning fuel. It is a function of coming up with a long-term plan as it relates to the interface area for a particular community. That is one mechanism available. I was going to talk about another one, and it escapes my mind just now.

Let me stop there. What I very clumsily tried to do was distinguish between the strategic planning element to this…. I want to emphasize that that's something that the prov- ince is, by necessity, going to have to have a continued role in, certainly through involvement by officials, be- cause that's where a lot of the expertise rests right now. One of the challenges here is to try and spread that expertise around or develo p it elsewhere and at the local level. [1610] The other component, broadly speaking, would be the fuel treatment pilot pr ojects, and some of those have been undertaken.

We do tend — and I'm as guilty of this as anyone — to focus on this issue around the question of burning. It's not the only way you deal with the fuel issue. Th ere are other mechanisms — thinning, cleaning and brushi ng. There are all kinds of things that can be done, and it doesn't all relate to pre- scribed burning. Sometimes, by virtue of how much attention we give to that one facet of it, I and others create the impression — incorrectly — that that is the be-all and end-all, and there are obviously risks associ- ated with it.

The last thing I want to say to the member and members is that this problem doesn't go away in a year, and it doesn't go away because of a $3 million allotment. There is a big ch allenge out there. This has accumulated over the better part of four or five dec- ades. What we need to do is ensure that we're planning on that basis. As I think th is member said yesterday or the day before, the real test for governments today and governments in the future is their willingness to re- mind themselves of what took place in 2003 and, as that memory recedes, maintain the commitment to dealing with these issues. J.

MacPhail: Another recommendation from the Filmon report that I wanted to explore…. I'm not going to explore all 42. These are on es that I am particularly

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10289 interested in. It recommends that the office of the fire commissioner should implement a searchable database to maintain a current and accurate provincewide in- ventory of private and public sector equipment avail- able for fire response. That's the recommendation. What's the progress on that ? How's the database being set up, and what's the estimate of cost? Hon. M. de Jong: I can only help a little bit. That actually is a feature of the report and the subsequent action that relates to the Solicitor General's ministry.

To give the member some notion of what I think it speaks to, when fire on the scale we saw in 2003 occurs, there is a huge draw on resources. A lot of people volunteer resources — everything from the D9 cat to a sprinkler system. Odd as it might sound, one of the things we learned and the professionals within the protection branch told me they learned was how effective, in that kind of a firestorm, something as simple as a portable sprinkler system can be to in- crease the moisture level and wet down a fire guard or a surrounding area.

Having some sense as to where that equipment is, where the hoses are, where th e transportation gear is, where the heavy equipment is, and having done that work in advance is, I think, what Mr. Filmon was refer- ring to. There wasn't too much of this, but occasionally I certainly heard expressions of frustration from people in communities who would say: "I have equipment that is being brought in from 200 kilometres away.

They only had to ask, and I would have gladly made it available." Some of them would have gladly made it available voluntarily or gratuitously — and others, because they saw a business opportunity there. There were different circumstances. I think part of the objective here is to ensure that that database, that inventory, is created. My guess is that creating the inventory is probably the easy part. Keeping it up to date is generally the more difficult challenge. [1615] J. MacPhail: I'll ask further questions on that of the Solicitor General. We have finished his estimates, but I'll write questions to him, Mr.

Chair. This is one for the Ministry of Forests. The Filmon report recommends that the Ministry of Forests should "implement a modern records management system to maintain a current and accurate provincewide inven- tory of certified forest fi re fighters" and "should con- sider some mechanism, othe r than retaking the S100, that allows past experience in the forest industry or firefighting to be recognized…." How does the minister plan on implementing these recommendations, which I think lead to improved access at the local level to quick and early firefighting expertise? Hon.

M. de Jong: I'm actually glad this question was asked by the member, as well, because amongst those issues that garnered public attention during and immediately after 2003, this was one of them. The frus- tration that I heard expressed tended to go something like this. People want to help, and they all want to help in the best way they can.

The anecdotal story I recall was from a number of IWA individuals who had received training, both first- aid training and training as it related to wildfire in the woods, which is obvious, given what their profession was — as harvesters — and there were obstacles to drawing on those individu als as a resource. That would have been frustrating for those individuals at the best of times, made worse by the fact that at the time this was happening, they were out of work. That compounded the issue. The recommendation recognized that, I think, and that's but one example.

It also recognized the fact that there is a training requirement. For the people on the front line within the protection branch, it was difficult at times to say to people: "Look, we're not just sending you out into the woods. It's to o dangerous." When the mili- tary came, they were great, but they went on a specific training course for th ree days in Vernon — both units that came through — so they were trained as well. Now, at the local fire centres that exist around the province, that training is taking place.

In the same way, we're trying to create an inventory of equipment and an inventory of individuals who can be drawn upon in the event of a drastic emerge ncy. Again, my suspicion is that this year and next year, and probably the year after, that will go very well. The challenge will be, be- yond

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	h0421pm-10
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	h0421pm 10
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6d254c777d720767a72543e4fe3515587d2c7e94

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