VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, MAY 27, 1981 NO. 47

May 27, 1981 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Harbour Main - Bell Island. MR. DOYLE: Tape 1852 EC - 1 Order, please! The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I rise on~ point of privilege. I rise at this time, Sir, because it was not until today that copies of Hansard were available to me concerning this particular matter. Mr. Speaker, I wish to bring to the attention of the hon. House what -I consider to be a very, very serious breach of the privileges of this House. I refer to the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and the accusations made yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, against my honesty and integrity. Now, Mr. Speaker, I refer to Hansard, Volume 3, No. 46 for Tuesday, May 26th and it is on Tape 1841 in which the hon. member statPs - "Mr. Near:y·o I know where it was printed. How does the hon. gentleman think I got a copy of it?" Of course, I am referring to this government pamphlet which the hon. gentleman says was printed at government expense down in Printincr Services. He goes on to say: "Mr. Neary: T can tell the hon. gentleman it was not paid for by the hon. gentleman." Some hon. members interject and Mr. Neary goes on: "Mr.

Chairman, it was not paid for by the hon. gentleman." Hon. members interject again and say, "Prove it." At this point, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Neary comes back with: "I can prove it. Sure I can. I am making a statement now and I am accusing the hon. gentleman of mi~using taxpayers' money to have this brochure printed in Government Services." Hon. gentlemen interject again with "No," and Mr. Neary says, "The hon. gentleman had better be careful. 5104

May 27, 1981 Tape 1852 EC - 2 MR. DOYLE: '' We already know about people who lie in this Rouse . " Now, Mr . Speaker, I feel that these accusations are very, very serious indeed and I further maintain, Mr. Speaker, that when the hon. gentlema .n said he could prove it, and he says righ~ here, "I can prove it. Sure I can . I am making a state ­ ment now and I am 5105

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1853 SD - 1 MR. N. DOYLE: ''accusing the hon. gentleman of misusinq taxpavers' money to have this brochure printed in Government Services.'' When he made tha-t statement., Mr. Speaker, I maintain that he could not have had that proof available to him and as a result it is a breach of privilege of the House. SOME HON.. MEUBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. DOYLE: And I maintain further, Mr.

Speaker, that the hon. gentleman could not have this proof available to him because I have . the proof riqht here in my hand,which I will table for all hon. members to see, the Jesperson Printing invoice and the receipts and everything else associated with it. But I feel, Mr. Speaker, that a prima facie case of breach of privileqes of this House has been establ~shed and at this point, Mr. Speaker, I will leave it in your competent ,lall::lS to make a ruling on it. MR. NEARY: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: To the point of privileqe, Mr.

To the point of privilege, the As Your Honour knows that is not a point of privilege, it is a matter of a difference of opinion between two hon. members. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: I thought the matter was ader.ruatelv taken care of yesterday, Mr. Speaker, but if the hon. qentleman, you know, if it would make him feel any hanpier - I know Your Honour will rule there i~ no prima facie case - hut if the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) gets his jol l ies out of this sort of thing,well,then ,I withdraw it.

I told the hon. gentleman yesterday I acce p t his word for the statement that 5106

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1853 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: He made. But the only explanation I would like from the han. gentleman,or from the Premier when he gets back ,is why these pamphlets have been passed out in the Premier's office to deleqations of school children goinq in the Premier's office and why thev are being passed out at the booze stores in this Province? MR. MARSHALL: To the point of privilege, Mr. SPeaker. r1R. SPEAKER (Simmsl : To the point of Privilege, the han. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, iust a few words to the point of privilege.

That is not good and sufficient as the han. member has gotten up and made these statements. There can be no greater breach of privilege than. to accuse an han. member of this House of misusin~ puhlir. funds~as hP. di~;of nor. telling the truth and, Mr. Speaker, aporopriating and, as I say, using for his own personal purposes the facilities of the qovernment of this Province. be, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That cannot MR. MARSHALL: - that goes right to the root of privileges of the House and the privilege of members if anything ever did. SOME HON. lJ!EMBERS : Oh, oh. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, nlease! MR. MARSHALL: Now the han. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, i:=; wont to think that he can make uo the rules in this House and he thinks he can make all these accusations - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: - and qet up and make statements like he did make. I think it i~ time, Mr. Spe~ker, that this House dealt with the han. member. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 5107

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1853 so - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Well , with respect to the point o£ privilege ,I will reserve ruling on it to give it some consideration, I have to review Hansard. I do not know exactly what was said. MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinnl. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh., oh.. t-1R. SPEAKER: SOME RON . MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Oh, oh. Order, please! 5108 t-

May 27, 1981 Tape NO. 1854 EL - 1 MR. STIRLING: The question, Mr-. Speaker, i:; yesterday in the Question Period it· was indicated that the minister had not discussed his letter to the Board and the letter that the Board sent back to him. I would ask the minister has he now discussed this matter with any of his colleagues in Cabinet? MR. SpEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, certainly I have had general discussions with my colleagues, both in Cabinet and outside Cabinet 1 about the items that were tab­ led in the House. and the explanation I made yesterday, certainly I had discussions. Everybody is talking about it apparently. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the people in the labour movement, people on this side of t:1e House, and every person on the Labour Relations Board felt that the minister did something that he should not have done, has he now been given the opinion by other min~ isters that the ministers .tgree with the opinion expressed by the Board and that in fact he should not have written the letter? Has he now been given that advice? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the people who I talked to concurred with the actions that I have taken.

I have not heard any­ one outside of the han. member for LaPoile (S. Neary) and a few members from the Opposition 1 and I understand there was a 5109

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1854 EL - 2 MR. DINN: press conference this morninq I got that secondhand, I believe, i~forrnation-that there was an hon. gentleman in the labour movement who disagreed with my actions. Obviously, there are people who disagree but I will continue and I will maintain that whenever some­ thing in the public interest is brought to my attention, whether it is done by a union group or a management group, then I will take appropriate action - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. DINN: - I will write letters. I will communicate to the appropriate people - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DINN: - if accusations are made by people about boards,then I will have those investigated and find out and reply to any people who communicate with me. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Minister of Justice (G.Ottenheimer) who,in reply to a question from my colleasue from LaPoile(S.Neary), said, "To my knowledge, I have absolutely no knowledge of anything improper done by the hon. minister with respect to any representations he may have made to the Newfoundland Labour Relations Board or any other board , absolutely. I have total confidence that he has done nothing whatsoever improper in anything. " And my side comment was, 1 Be care:gul. 1 I 511 0

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1855 DW - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: would ask the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) in view of the letters that have now been tabled, the one to the Board and the one from the Board , if he had that informa­ tion at the time 1 and now that he does have that information, does he still make the absolute statement that in his opinion the minister done nothing improper? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, ob7iously I made that answer, that was a couple of days ago.

So what the hon. gentleman is really asking me now is vou know, in light of matters discussed yesterday am I of the opinion that anything improper was done. I am certainly not setting myself as judge over other people. Obviously it can be argued - the hon. member opposite has argued that he thinks it was improper interference. The hon. minister has made the case that he does not regard it as improper interference, that he was making representation, he was passing along a representation which had been made to him to the foard,that he was transmitting a representation.

So if hon. members opposite wish to set themselves up as a Solomon and be the judge of - put them­ selves forward as the great judges,that is obviously their privilege. But it is an area in which different people could honestly hold different opinions. The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) has stated that he did not regard nor was it his intention to interfere in any imoroper manner with .the Newfoundland and Labrador Labour Relations Board and he regarded what he did as a matter of representation, a legiti­ mate representation where he was transmitting a representation made to him.

And I am certainly, at least, equally prone to accept the explanation of the hon. minister as I am of hon. gentlemen opposite. SOME RON. MEHBERS: Hear, hear! 5 1 1 1

May 27, 1981 MR. L. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. L. STIRLING: Tape No. 1855 OW - 2 Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, that question was asked to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) - SOME HON. ~~BERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . L. STIRLING: I can understand the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dino) who was not knowledge­ able or learned or sought any advice, I can understand him blundering into this situation , but now I must ask the Minister of Justice if, in fact, now that this m~tter now has been brought to his attention , does he think that the Labour Relations Board made the prop er response in saying that they viewed with alarm the letter from the - the very fact that the minister wrote a letter? The Minister of Justice, can he tel~ us whether or not he believes that the Labour Relations Board response was approPriate or inapproriate? 5 11 2 .-.i •

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1856 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I think in matters like this obviously there are different perspectives. I am not going to say either that the Ne~fnundland Labour Relations Board was wrong in its reply. From the perspective - things are not always black and white obviously - from the perspective of the hon. minister,it is my judgement that he honestly and reasonably believed that he was doing the appropriate, correct thing by transmitting to the Newfoundland Labour Relations Board - MR. NEARY: MR. OTTENHEIMER: SOME HON.

MEMBERS : MR. OTTENHEIMER: Leader of the Opposition and SOME HON. MEMBERS: NR . :oPEAh.t.R: MR. OTTENHEIMER: 'Is this government policy now? The hon. member will - Oh, oh! I have a question now from the Oh, oh! Oruer, please! - and it is not my intention to - I usually do not avoid questions. I try to give as honest and forthright an answer as possible. But I cannot do it with con- stant interruptions. I certainly accept the position of the hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) that in his opinion he was legitimately and correctly acting upon a request made to him to transmit certain concerns to the Newfoundland and Labrador Labour Relations Board. I can also, from the perspective of the Newfoundland Labour Relations Board, they were collectively, together, as a board, of the opinion that it was improper.for the Minister of Labour to transmit this concern, and from their per- spective it is quite reasonable and understandable that they would take that position because there are two quite different perspectives there. MR.

NEARY: It never happened before in Newfoundland history. 511 3 r•

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1856 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Order, please! Order, please: A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. minister is giving a response· to a question, Mr. Speaker.- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: - and all t~e time through the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is interjecting. Now there are rules that a member answering a question, or giving a question, is permitted to be heard in silence. ·The hon. member is disrupting the House. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

MARSHALL: (Inaudible) . Order, please! Now, Mr. Speaker, I think the time has come for the hon. member for LaPoile to be told in no uncertain terms to comply with the rules of this House - MR. NEARY: MR. S.PEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: remedy available - MR. NEARY: but you do not own it. MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: You do not own the House. Order, please! - or else, Mr. Speaker, there is a You would like to have the power Order, please! Order, please! - whereby people who disrupt the proceedings of the House can be named and put out until they learn parliamentary behaviour. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, to the point of order. 511 4 !/

May 27, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for LaPoile. Tape No. 1856 NM - 3 To the pnin+- of order, the hon. MR . NEARY: That is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Your Honour knows full well the traditions o£ this Bouse. The hon. gentleman would like to own the House. He thinks the government owns the House. The hon. gentleman thinks he owns the House. But this is the people's House and all ~he hon. gentleman is trying to do is to consume time in the Oral Quest ion Period to protect. a minister - ·soME BON . ME!1BERS: Hear, hear ! MR.

NEARY: ~who is guilty of interferring in th.e judicial system of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: With respect to the point of order, I have said on nurrerous occasions that there are certain interruptions and it is outlined in Beauchesne £or all to see and to adhere to. The Chair has a responsiblity to try to keep order but members have a responsibility as well to try to adhe .re to any rulings that the Chair gives in order to keep the Bouse in order.

I must say that insistent inter- ruptions and loud shouting are things that all of us at least should not accept in this House and the Chair will be observing the •11ay that members react 511 5

May 27,1981 Tape No . 1857 AH-1 MR.SPEAKER (Simms) : to various things that are being said. There are certain things that are allowed to be said,but constant interruptions, loud shouting and so on are things that cannot be tolerated and will not be tolerated to any great extent. Leader of the Opposition. MR.STIRLING: A supplementary. The hon. A new question ,Mr. Speaker, to the President of the Council,who is anxious to get into this. I would ask the President of the Council - I understand the Premier is away.

Maybe he can tell us where the Premier is and how long he is going to be gone because this is a very serious matter that has to do with the credibility of the government as far as both employers and labour are concerned. So I would like to ask the President of the Council where the Premier is and when he will return to de.al with this very serious problem? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the seriousness of the problem can be measured by the capacity of the mind which asserts that it is a serious problem. Mr. Speaker, there have been - SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

MARSHALL: been - SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Oh, oh~ Order, please! Mr. Speaker, there have Oh, oh! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentlemen want an answer I am prepared to give it but I am not prepared to give it in this particular setting. I mean,if the House is going to operate as a House I wil l give an answer but if it is going to operate like a bear pit, Mr. 511 6

May 27,1981 MR. MARSHALL: seat. Mr. STIRLING; MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Tape No. 1857 AH-2 Speaker, I will take my Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. Mr. Speaker, I really take that as a reflection on the Speaker. I think the Speaker is keeping control of the House and I would repeat the question- SOME HON .MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.

STIRLING: -I would repeat the question and ask the President of the ~ouncil to stop pouting like a little· 'child and get up and answer the question; where is the Premier and when will he return to deal with this very serious matter of the credibility of his government as it relates to both the employers and the employees in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The Premier , Mr. Speaker, is about very important public business with respect to the development of this Province, the possible development of this Province. I will not say exactly where he is,but I can say 1 Mr.

Speaker, that he is engaged in one of the many struggles that this government has had to engage in over the period of time with respect to such issues as - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh1 oh~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: - our rightful ownership of resources, our right as Canadians to transmit electrical power, etc. 1 in that particular area. And anyone, Mr.

Speaker, observing the way in which the Opposition is asking questions and carrying out the proceedings of the House,whether he is successful or not in his endeavours,will realize that he could not if he were back here no matter what he is doing where he 511 7

May 27,1981 Tape No. 1857 AH - 3 MR. MARSHALL: presently is,he would be more effectively attending to public business where he is because you cannot attend to public business effectively with the type of inane and small-minded questions that the Opposition is voicing across the House. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I have a que=~ion for the Acting Premier. In view of the fact that the Premier is not here,would the Acting Premier tell us-and in view of the fact that he does not consider employee/employer relations 511 8

May 27, 1981 Tape 1858 EC - 1 MR. STIRLING: important, would the acting Premier tell us whether or not he has had discussions with the Premier about this involvement by the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) in what the Board considers interference and what the labour movement considers inter­ ference? Would the a~ting Premier tell us whether or not he has had a discussion with the Premier and was the resignation of the Minister of Labour and Manpower discussed? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker, it is not really worth a reply, but let me say this, Mr.

Speaker. We have many qiscussions with the Premier. Every minister in the Cabinet has discussions with the Premier regularly, daily, as opposed to the way that the governments that . the hon. gentlemen were members of were used to. Now, Mr. Speaker, with reference to this, we have already indicated what our particular view of - and I think the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) has admirably given the view of the government with respect to this. particular matter.

But I can, just to allay any doubts, say that it was never in anybody's contemplation except in the small minds of certain people opposite that there would ever be any question whatsoever of the Minister of Labour and Manpower resigning. The Minister of Labour and Manpower will be a member of a Progressive Conservative administration for many years yet to come. SOME' HON . MEMBERS : MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: on a supplementary. MR. LUSH: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. The hon. the member for Terra Nova Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour and Manpower.

In reading over the letter which 511 9

May 27, 1981 Tape lBSB EC - 2 MR. LUSH! was written to him on, I believe, the 3rd of April from the Vice-Pr~sident of Newfoundland Light and Power, Mr. Templeton; I see nowhere in that letter where the Vice-President asked the minister to maf>e any representation to the Labour Relations Board. Can the minister specifically ROint out to bon. members wh~re the Vice-President of Newfoundland Light and Power specifically asked the minister to1one, transmit information, or to make representation - to transmit representation, which was wbat the Minister of Justic.e (Mr.

Ottenheimer) was saying, which is a difference - to transmit representation or to make representation, either? MlL FLIGHT: Or to interfere. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minist~r of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I am delighted that somebody in the Opposition took time to read the letters. Because the letter that I received from Mr. Templeton basically makes inferences with respect to how they were dealt with before the Labour Relations Board. And at the bottom of page one of the letter, it says - "We believe," he says . "that specia .l circwnstances concerning the service that we supply 5120

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1859 EL - 1 ' MR. DINN: "to the public should have been of concern to the Board - MR. FLIGHT: That is right. MR. DINN: " and that a hearing should have been held!' Now, that to me is - AN HON. MEMBER: So what? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DINN: Now,that to me is an allegation that the Board did something - MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. DINN: That. to me is an allegation that one side of this applic:ation : before the Board believe that they were · not :treated right·. SOME HON. MEM~ERS: Oh, oh! MR. DINN: And I had to find out - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DINN: And I had to find out from the &card exactly what had happened. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WALSH: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. member for Menihek. MR. WALSH: Mr. Speaker, I rarely interupt any member in this House when he is speaking and a few minutes ago you got up and you made indication that all members of the House should .abide by the rules and I think that the hon. gentlemen should have the decency to go by your ruling. Mr. Speaker. HR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Sit down and shut up. Order, please!

To the point of order, I rule there is no point of order, but hon. members are aware of what 1 said 51 21 '.

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1859 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : will observe. a few moments ago and the Chair The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to let that stand on the record ' anywhere, that the Labour Relations Board there is an allegation,in my opinion,in this letter and I am not going to allow that to stand on the record ana therefore,in order to find out how the ruling was made and why it was made,and knowing that the Labour Relations Board has. made excellent, excellent rulings in the past,! wrote a letter to the board so that I could get an explanation so that I can reply'to this. MR. THOMS: (Inaudible) SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DINN: I could not leave this on the record.

As a matter of fact, if I got a representation from a union alleging anything, alleging something else, I would do ex­ actly the same thing. I would do exactly the - MR. THOMS: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DINN: I would do, Mr. Speaker, exactlv the same thing. Now if the hon. member for Grand Bank - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must ask the hon. member for Grand Bank(L.Thoms) please to restrain himself. I will not tolerate excessive shouting like that. If members want to pass along comments, that is acceptable but I think we all know what kind of comments are acceptable.

But certainly not loud shouting across like that,especially when you have asked a question and you want an answer because it is impossible to 51 2 2

May 27, 1981 Tape NO. 1859 EL - 3 MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : get an answer if there is loud shouting like that. The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower . MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, there is nobody over there who can out - shout me or QUt-speak me.

The fact of the matte~ is that i£ I got a representation,as I got in this letter 1 that says certain t hings about the Board,that somebody felt, whether it is the Labour Standards, the Labour Standards Tribunal, whether it is the Labour Relations Board, I would not let that on the record and I have to get back.And after the Supreme C~urt deals with this ,or after the courts deal with this Certiorari, then I will reply to Mr . Templeton because I cannot allow that to stand. I cannot allow that to stand. · I did not make it public in the first place. Hon. members opposite saw fit to make it public and - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DINN: -it wou~d not be here before the House unless hon . members made it public. While it was 5123

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1860 DW - 1 MR. J. DINN: before the courts. They had the letters in their possession. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKBR (Simms): Order, please! MR. ,T. DINN: - while it was before the courts and they brought it U!) before this House circuitously as it was and they made it public in a - MR. S. NEARY: You brought it up. MR. J. DINN: ·: I had to. I had no option but to defend myself.

I certainly would not have brr,uqht this up before the courts had dealt with it1 but I had no option but to defend myself in this Hous .e as all hon. rembers find in this House - the hon. member for Harbour Main - Bell Island (Mr. Doyle) today had to do exactly the same thing - when accusations are made against their operations, the way they operate or conduct business,when accusations are made you have to defend yourself. -And I will continue to do that too, Mr.

Speaker; I certainly will not allow any hon. member over there - I have a Mifflin report here on my desk how you should not operate, how you should not operate in this Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. T. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: for Terra Nova. MR. 7'. LUSH: Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member Well, Mr. Speaker, despite that heavy explosion 1 the minister has not convinced me that the Vice-President asked for him to make representation. But personally, Mr. Speaker .. if I were the minister and had received this,I would have transmitted the representation.

I would simply have forwarded the letter to the Labour Relations Board saying, 'This was a letter that T had received' which ~·nnld hav~ heen transmitting but not interferring - that is what it would have been. 5124

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1860 ow - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, ·hear! HR. LUSH: So if the minister is saying that the letter he wrote to the Labour Relations Board is not interference,could he indicate to the House what is inter­ ference? MR. G. FLIGHT: 'Nhat he would have considered interence? MR. T. LUSH: What he would have considered interence if this letter that he wrote after receiving this letter from the Vice-President, if that letter was not interference 1what is interference? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J.

DINN: It is not normally my ;ob to indicate to the hon. member what is interference, but I will give him an example of what would be considered inter­ ference. For example, in 1970 / 71 on Bell Island hundreds of letters were transmitted to welfare officers on Bell Island saying to do this or do that or process this or process that, hundreds of letters! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. J. DINN: The hon. member asked for an example, .Mr. Speaker, and I want to answer the hon. member because I like to answer questions in this House.

Hundreds of letters and directives were given to the welfare officers on Bell Island,to a point where the welfare officers thought that their jobs, the security of their jobs was in jeopardy if they did not do what a particular minister indicated that they should do. That to me, these hundreds of letters and this oressure brought to bear by a minister would,in my opinion,be considered interference. MR. NEARY: I was doing my job, my duty. 51 2 5

May 27, 1981 MR. J. DINN: edification , Tape No. 1860 And the hon.member, for his ~1 e hon. member who brought this up in ow - 3 the first place was the minister of the day at that time. There was a whole book written on him. The hon. member should read a book as to how not to operate. It is called the Mifflin report. I read it many times and I do not ·operate that way. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order , please! MR. J. DINN: And the Labour Relations Board, Mr. Speaker, has no fear from the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) as to the security of thP.

Board or the security of their positions as a result of a representa­ tion by me . MR . T. LUSH: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . 5126

May 27, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) for Terra Nova. Tape No. 1861 so - 1 Supplementary, the hon. member MR. LUSH: So again, Mr. Speaker, a rather convoluted answer to a very serious question and carryina on from there, Mr. SpF>aker, the mfnist~r makes representation on behalf nf Light and Power to the Labour Relations Board when they, in fact, did not ask. He sees fit to make representation.and in the last paragraph of that letter to the Lnbonr Relations Board, makes some statements, Mr. Speaker, which had placed him, I am sure, in a most unfavourable light with the labour movement of this Province.

Now , I will ask the minister- he answered yesterdav that he thought that IBEW was a wonderful unior'. - now I will ask the ministF>r how he cnn justifv that with a statement that says that these people were holding the people of Newfoundland up for ransom? Now if a union is that aood,how can the minister justify that kind of a statement to say that the IBEW is a good union, in one case here vesterday, and yer to make this statement in the letter here to the Labour Relations Board that thev were holding the oeonle nf Newfoundland un for ransom? MR. SPRAKER: and Manpower. MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Labour Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member may not recall but I think that most members in this House can recall that in 1980, during a strike we had a very serious situation in this Province with respect to, for examole, letters I received and telenrams that I received from different: districts throuahout this Province, representations made by MHAs in this House today as to what I was goinq to do about certain thinas, representations made by, for exnmple, the Mayor of Port aux Basques as to what I wasr ·aoinq to do with resoect to a power outage out there and a serious and emerqencv situation that existed - MR.

NEARY: How long was the J?O"M3r outage? When was it? 51 2 7

Hay 27, 1981 Tape No 1861 MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, olease ! MR. DINN: - that •these were the people who were suffering and I received those representations,and here we have another representation made to me with respect to the fact that there were an indication that the company could not ooerate during those conditions in 1979 - 80 and with 95 .oer cent of their emolovee!'l certified they woulo not be able to operate at nll. And they fPlt ~ha~ they s hould have a hearing and I asked the Labour Relations Board for an exolanation . The last line , Mr.

SpPaker, of my letter to the board is a very important line . It is not 'do this or else'. MR . LUSH: Let us hear it. so - 2 MR. OINN: "I would be pleased to hear your reaction and re~oonse to this important questio n. " MR. NEARY: What important question? MR. DINN: it is important? S0?-1E HON. MEMBERS : MR. HANCOCK : MR. SPEAKER: for St. Mary's - The Capes . MR . HANCOCK: The hon. member does not think Oh, oh . Supplementary, Mr . Speaker.

Supplementary, the hon . member Seeing that the minister considers the IBEW a great union vet t .hey heid tl-te people of Newfoundland up to ransom, could he indicate on a scale of one to ten how he considers 5128

May 27, 1981 Tape 1862 EC - 1 MR. HANCOCK: the other unions in this Province? I am sure they are anxious to know where they stand with the minister. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : and Manpower. MR. DINN: The hon. the Minister of Labour The hon. the member for- St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hancock) obviously does not understand what goes on in labour relations. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DINN: The fact of the matter is that somebody has to suffer during a strike situation. In the case of 1979 - 1980, I do not believe that the Light and . Power suffered a bit.

I do believe that the employees did when they went on strike because they did not get salaries, they did not get wages. But the fact of the matter is somebody did suffer very seriously and that somebody, as an example, were all the people between Rose Blanche and Port aux Basques when there was a power outage and so on. These are the things that happen during strikes. We have the right to strike in Newfoundland. We have it in the public service, we have it in the construction industry, we have it throughout. And I will stand here day in and day out and defend that as a right.

Now, the fact of the matter is that has nothing to do with the situation. The situation is that I received a letter. Along with these other things that are in my mind with respect to what happened before, I received a representation that,to me, questioned what a Board was doing that comes under my department. Now, in order to reply to that - MR. NEARY: You are answering the last question now. MR. DINN: In order to reply to that, I had 51 2 9

May 27, 1981 Tape 1862 EC - 2 MR. DINN: to get information. Now, the Board did not think that the way .I asked for the information was appropriate. That is unfortunate to say the least. And I can understand the Board's reaction. I have no qualms with that. I can understand their reaction. MR. NEARY: You had no choice b~t to accept it. MR. DINN: The fact of the matter is, you know, it was just necessary for them. I ~ean, I can understand them pointing that out to me, but it was also necessary for them to answe 'r the question to find out how I was going to reply to these things.

Because I do not think they should be on the public record. Now, I will do that when the courts and after the courts deal with it. I would not have brought this up in the first place. The hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary},knowing that this was before the courts - because it is indicated in one of the letters he tabled - knowing that, made a public issue of it, while they were before the courts. I had to defend myself and . I will continue to do that. There is no problem with me defending myself against accusations made by the hon. the member for LaPoile. He should read his own book.

No minister on this side operates that way. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms}: Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: The hon. the member for Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is becoming increasingly clear that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Dinn} has no conception whatsoever of what natural justice is about in this or any other province. I have a question I would like to direct to the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) in the absence of the Premier. 51 3 0

May 27, 1981 Tape 1862 EC - 3 MR. THOMS: In view of the fact that the Minister of Labour {Mr . Dinn) has. interfered with the Board and it is considered that he has done nothing wrong , and in view of the fact that the Minister of Justice (Mr . Ottenheimer) now agrees that he has done nothing wrong, and then looking at the third paragraph of the letter which has been tabled, the expression therein that 51 31

May 27,1981 Tape No. 1863 AH-1 MR. THOMS: the labour union in this particular case was in effect holding the innocent third party,meaning the Newfoundland Light and Power,up to ransom,I would like to ask the President of the Council in view of this, in view of what the Minister of Labour (Mr. Dinnl and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) said,is this or is it not now government policy? MR. NEARY: This letter. MR. THOMS: This letter . This statement by your minister. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. President of the Council has a very short time for an answer, about ten seconds. MR. MARSHALL: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it was quite a long, long question and I cannot answer - MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: agree to give leave? 1y leave, i-tt . Speaker. Do hon. trembers wish to MR. MARSHALL: I hesitate, Mr. Speaker. I will speak by leave of the Speaker. MR. NEARY: Yes or no. You need no rrore anS\\ers than that . MR. MARSHALL: watch his blood pressure, Speaker. The hon. gentlen>an should keep his blood pressure down,Mr . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I understand the time has expired. Is there leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS : SOME HON . MEt-ffiERS : MR. SPEAKER: distinctly heard a no. No. Oh, oh ! Order, please! I think I

May 27,1981 Tape No. 1863 AH-2 MR. SPEAKER (Simm s ) : This being Private Member's Day, Wednesday, I now call Motion No. 6 which was moved by the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr . Flight). member for Windsor-Buchans . MR. FLIGHT: SOME HON.MEMBERS: Motion No. 6. The hon. Thank you, Mr. Spe~ker. Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the motion calls f·or · an immediate start on the Lm~er Churchill, specifically the Muskrat Falls hydro electric site.

And , Mr. s~enYer, I cannot think of a more appropriate way to start off these few remarks I intend to make than to quote from an editorial in today' s paper and ,t>tr. Speaker; I quote. "What was the self­ styled crowning achievement of the Moores administration" - referring to the Moores administration dealing with the Opper Churchill. MR. MARSHALL: What paper was that? MR. FLIGHT: That is the people's paper, the people's paper. But it is significant what was said, Mr. Speaker; what was said is this·.

"What was the self-styled crowning achievement of the Moores administration may yet become clear to all as one of the great blunders in Newfoundland history." Now, Mr . Speaker, this administration started by the Moores administration in 1972, the handling of 5133

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1864 NM - 1 MR. FLIGHT: the Lower Churchill power, it will become, Mr. Speaker, the biggest blunder and be seen by people, is being seen every day, Mr. Speaker, by people as being the biggest blunder in the history of this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us take a look at the history of the Lower Churchill, this administration's approach -to development of the Lower Churchill.~d 1 Mr.

Speaker, before I do let me say that I believe that the people of this Province, there has been no issue ever, political or otherwise, anyone within living memory will ever be able to say that on any one issue . that the people of this Province was more confused, lied to more often, cheated more often, fooled more often, and used more often politically than they were on the issue of the development of the Gull Island, Muskrat Falls, the Lower Churchill power site. Never, Mr. Speaker. Now let us trace, before we get into the substance of it, Mr.

Speaker, let us trace the career, let us trace the events of the Lower Churchill development. Mr. Speaker, in 1974 the Moores Administration, made up of all the people present now, Mr. Speaker, made up of the present President of Council (Mr. Marshall), made up of the present Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry), made up of the present Premier, paid in excess, Mr. Speaker, of $200 million to BRINCO to buy out BRINCO, to nationalize BRINCO, and of course in nationalizing BRINCO they took over CLFCo. And les~ there be any doubt, Mr.

Speaker, that CLFCo is a Crown corportion and that there is a Crown coporation today suing Newfoundland; for anyone who wants to check the records, in November of 1976 CFLCo became a Crown corporation, ~ :rown corporation, Mr. Speaker, that counts as one of its members the Chairman of Hydro-Quebec, its Chairman and Chief Executive Officer is a member of CLFCo, Mr. Speaker. Now that must confuse some people, that the Board of Directors of CFLCo, a company that this Province paid in excess of $200 million for, that this Province C 1·':) I ..J ..J"' ,,

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1864 NM- 2 MR. FLIGHT: stretched their credit on, that bled the people of this Province financially- $200 million may well have gone to in excess of $300 million today, Mr. Speaker. That is the price paid in 1974. For what, Mr. Speaker? What did they tell the people of Newfoundland they wanted to buy that - what did they justify that kind of shenanigans with? To make an immediate start on the Lower Churchill, Mr. Speaker, they needed to buy BRINCO, they needed to pay BRINCO in excess of $200 million to make an immediate start on the Lower Churchill; 1974. Now, Mr.

Speaker, it is now 1981 and there has been no immediate start made on the Lower Churchill and there will be no immediate start made on the Lower Churchill, Mr. Speaker, for a long, long time. And the reason there will be no start made on the Lower Churchill, Mr. Speaker, is because of the way that the administration of this Province, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, the present government -ltt. Moores in the first instance propped up by the present Premier, propped up by the present Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry); in 1974, Mr.

Speaker, and 1975 the present Minister of Mines and Energy was going around this Province convincing people 51 3 5

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1865 EL - 1 MR. FLIGHT: that we should have a hydro electri9al programme in the Prov­ ince as a stopgap to 1981 when the Lower Churchill power would come onstream,and we were talking about a tunnel.And then the next event, Mr. Speaker, was 1975 when· the then Premier of the day and hi.s Minister of Mines and Energy started the tunnel. They blasted, Mr. Speaker, in August of 1975, set off the blast that would start the tunnel to bring the Lower Churchill power into Newfoundl.and. MR. HODDER: How many millions did that cost? MR. FLIGHT: In . l975, Mr.

Speaker, a couple of months after the election, the Minister of Mines and Energy of the day, the then Minister of Mines and Energy, Mr. Crosbie1 stood up and said that there would be no more expenditure on the Lower Churchill, that it was being stopped. And then, Mr. Speaker, here is where we get into the politics of the LOwer Churchill. Prior to 1975,there was never any mention, in talking about this Province's ability to develop the Lower Churchill, there was never any mention of the transmission of power.

We never heard that one of the problems with the transmission of power was the constitutional rights to wheel power across Quebec. We were told the reason we could not develop the Lower Church­ ill was because BRINCO owned the Lower Churchill; because BRINCO had the water rights, we had to buy out BRINCO. Never any question, Mr. Speaker, of constitutionality or the right to ship our power across Quebec or ship it anywhere, for that matter. And then, Mr. Speaker, the politics started to come into play. Recognizing that they did not have the ability, Mr.

Speaker, the financial ability, the political will and probably the expertise to develop either of the Lower 51 3 6 ,_

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1865 EL - 2 MR. FLIGHT: Churchill sites, t'hey had to find a way out. They had to find an excuse, Mr. Speaker, to give to the people of Newfoundland to justify their spending what today may be in excess of $300 million or $400 million with the buying out of BRINCO, the giving to BRINCO of $300 million or $400 million, Mr. Speaker. They had to justify that because that cost this Province miles and miles of road. It cost them hospital extentions, it cost them schools, it cost, Mr. Speaker, this Province - there is no telling what that expense might have cost this Province.

And it served no purpose at all, Mr. Speaker. So, they had to justify that. And then suddenly they raised a spectre of not bei~g allowed to ship our power across Quebec, not allowed, Mr. Speaker, to have a corridor through Quebec. And they wanted to give the people of Newfoundland the idea that they were talking about a des­ ignated power corridor across Quebec, another power line down through Quebec to wheel out the Lower · Churchill power. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are 1,700 megawatts available on the Lower Churchill, 1,700 megawatts of power.

There is presently 450 megawatts of power being gen­ erated in this Province by burning oil. So, Mr. Speaker, if we develop the Lower Churchill tomorrow and we brought the power we needed into this Province, the 400 megawatts to close down Holyrood and to stop any dependence on oil, we would then have around 1,200 or 1,300 megawatts to transmit. I mean, the President of the Council (W.Marshall) is sitting taking notes, Mr. Speaker, and I would like for him when he stands up to 51 3 7

May 27, 1981, Tape 1866, Page 1 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: when ·he gets up to answer this question. He spent his political career, Mr. Speaker, the last four or five years, crucifying people on the whole Upper Churchill Falls problem. And he, Mr. Speaker, and most of his colleagues and anyone who knows what they are talking about will agree that the problem - the present Premier, Mr.

Speaker - indicate the problem with the Upper Churchill is the time, the sixty-five years in the contract; th.at the original contract for 2.5 mils was not a bad deal, given the economics of the day 1 but that the sixty-five years is our problem. Now, Mr. Speaker, maybe the President of the Council(Mr. Marshall) will tell us when he stands up if he believes that having 1,000 megawatts of power to move out of Quebec to any market through Quebec, would that justify the capital cost of building a corridor through Quebec? And furthermore, is he prepared, Mr.

Speaker - let us assume if we were to agree on a long-term take and pay, let us assume we were prepared to accept a long-term contract -would he be prepared to sign with PASNY in New York or anyone else? Would he be prepared to sign a long-term contract? Would he be prepared to ship the power out of Labrador now the same way as it was shipped out in the Upper Churchill deal? Would he be prepared if - say, if a long-term contract on the total output of the Lower Churchill was required, would h.e be prepared to sign? That is what the people of this Province are interested in, Mr. Speaker, ,will we ship out?

Are we prepared to develop Gull Island and ship the surplus power out over a designated corridor with no recallable rights, with no recallable rights? Because, Mr. Speaker, only a fool, only a fool would think about the possibility 51 3 8

May 27, 1981, Tape 1866, Page 2 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: of building a corridor down through Quebec to ship out the Gull Island power, 1,000 megawatts the Premier talks about. With - recall rights ., Mr. Speaker, we would end up in ten years with a line down through Quebec that probably cost in excess of billions, I think $1.5 billion was the last figure put on it, with nothing to ship over it. So, Mr.

Speaker, when he stands up why does he not admit to this House that in the past seven or eight years there has been nothing but politics played with the Lower Churchill, nothing but straight, pure politics played with the Lower Churchill. And the general public is starting to see, they are starting to recognize the politics. We talk about cheap power, Mr. Speaker.

LCDC - now'"'" let us look at the next event in the Churchill Falls power situation: The government,recognizing that they were not capable of developing the Lower Churchill on their own, set up the LCDC, the Lower Churchill Development Corportation to recommend whether or not - five years after they had spent in exces& of $300 ~illion, five years later they realized they could no-t develop the Lower Churchill on their own so they went to Ottawa and they had the LCDC, the Lower Churchill Development Corporation set up - 51 per cent Newfoundland, 49 Ottawa. 51 3 9

May 27, 1981 Tape 1867 EC - 1 MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, that Lower Churchill Development Corporation made a lot of recommendations. One was that they make an immediate start on the Muskrat power development. There were no problems with transmission, there was no surplus energy. If the court case with Quebec that is ongoing down here now worked out,we would have 8GC megawatts recall, we would have 600 megawatts at the Lower Churchill that we could bring into Newfoundland. But, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that whether the court case worked out or whether there wa~ transmission mattered not.

The LCDC, the most qualified people in Canada, recommended to this government that they make an immediate start on the Muskrat Falls power site. Now, having created the corporation, they refused to take the advise. Instead we are gone with Cat Arm, Mr. Speaker, a $300 million project, a project that has all sorts of dangers and threats to the environment of this Province, that is only a stopgap measure, that will only produce power for two years anyway. Whether we like it or not, Mr. Speaker, the Muskrat Falls project is a five to six year project.

From the commencement of construction until it is completed, until the power is onstrearn, is six years, Mr. Speaker. We will be short of power in this Province. After Cat Arm is onstrearn, Mr. Speaker, in 1986 there will be an energy shortage in this Province. Now, the minister might stand up and tell us where the shortfall is going to come from. That was the reason, by the way, that LCDC recommended Muskrat. The recommendation was that we start Muskrat now and continue on with Gull. Now, let us talk about the cheap power, Mr. Speaker. LCDC has told the government of this 51 4 0

May 27, 1981 MR. FLIGHT: power would cost 85 mils. Al.'l HON . MEMBER: Tape 1867 EC - 2 Province that Muskrat Falls What? MR. FLIGHT: Muskrat power, 85 mils delivered to Hydro; Gull Island power, 65 mils; and the Upper Churchill power excess to Newfoundland, 45 mils. Mr. Speaker, the cheapest Labrador power available to this Province, a blended price for Labrador power, 65 mils, Mr. Speaker, 4 mils more expensive ~~an the Cat Arm development and the cheapest we could supply in this Province. MR. NEARY: If they were doing their homework there would be no need of Cat Arm, no need of it at all. ~R.

SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, we sell Quebec our power for 2.5 mils per kilowatt hour. LCDC suggests, Mr. Speaker, that we find a market that will pay us 30 mils for Gull Island power. But Gull Island power is going to cost us 33 mils to produce. LCDC suggests that if we could find a market for 30 mils - what they are suggesting, Mr. Speaker, is that we have to market the surplus energy developed at Gull Island for less than it costs us. Now, Mr. Speaker, is there anyone in this Province interested in developing Gull Island or Muskrat to sell at a loss?

You know, if the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) were here, Mr. Speaker, he might want to talk about this. LCDC, the experts in this area of Canada, Mr. Speaker, have told us that we may have to market - if we can market - Gull Island power for 30 mils. It will cost us 33 mils to generate. The people of this Province have to make a choice, Mr. Speaker. Are they prepared to market Gull Island power for less than it costs us to produce it? Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of question that the 51 4 1 .....

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1868 SD - 1 MR. FLIGHT: the kind of question that the House Leader (Mr. Marshall),when he stands up,is going to have to address himself to. And he is goinq to have to start acing around this Province, Mr. Speaker, it is more and more becomina apoarent to evervonP in rhis Province that we:have been done in on the Lower Churchill. Mr. Speaker, in 1975 the Lower Churchill had been estimated at $2.3 billion, that was th~ total cost including tran~mi~sion. "T'oday it-. is four point something billion dollars, twice as much in fou~ years. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the Lower Churchill may have been at one point - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order. please! MR. FLIGHT: - a cheap source of power for this Province, it may have been, but, Mr. Speaker, the r.vay that this government have dealt with the Lower Churchill development from 1971 to this day has denied Newfoundland and very effectively made sure that the Lower Churchill,or the UppPr Churchill for that matter, but certainly the Lower Churchill will never be a cheap source of power for this Province. Delivered to Newfoundland Hydro, Mr.

Speaker, Lower Churchill power has aot to cost .1s in excess of 65 mils - that is blended price, that is recall from the Upper Churchill, Gull Island and Muskrat, the cheapest and most expensivP- Labrador power blended have aot to average 65 mils, Mr. Speak~r, thanks to what this government have dnne this past ten year~. And that is the price delivered en Newfoundl ann Liaht and Power, Mr. Speaker. When Newfoundland T.ight and Po,..r"!r put- on t-h.eir profits. Mr.

Speaker, and all th.e rest of the escalation is added, for Labrador power,oeriod, if we are going to develop the Lower Churchill sites, we will be looking at 100 mil power, Mr. Speaker. this Province will be 100 mil Labrador power delivered to power and it will be 100 mil power, Mr. Speaker, because this administration did not have the political will over this past ten vears to develop 5142

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1868 SD - 2 MR. FLIGHT: the Lower Churchill. It was sickening - he is not in his seat now and I am sorry he is not, Mr. Speaker - to hear the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) iustifying a few days ago the Cat Arm development, and he sain what a areat economic boom to Newfoundland, 700 jobs for two years. Well vou know what the Muskrat would hAve been five yP.ars ago or today? - 5,800 iobs for six years. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIGHT: great economic boom? benefits? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear.

How does thAt compare for a If we are . looking at the short term Oh, oh! Mr. Spe~ker, I am prepared to talk about: th"' T.ow<>r Chur,..hi 1 1 in th"' long term ,not prepar"'d to talk about the Lower Churchill for the short term benefit. And, t-ir. Speaker, look v1hat has hapoened to this Provi nee this pAst ten year. Because this Province would prefP.r to play politics with the Lower Churcill isssue starting in 1971- and that minister. if there is anvone in th.is H.ouse. Mr. Speaker, more well aware of what I am ralkin~ aboutit is the hon. PresidP.nt nf the Council (Mr. Marshall). Ee pulled out of CAbinet, Mr.

Speaker. because he did not agree with what was goina on financially in that administration and he sat therP. for five or six years and he watched, Mr. Speaker. the same actors that he is propping up todav, the same Minister of MinPs and Eneray (Mr. Barry), the PrP.mi"'r when he WAS the Minister of MinP.s and Enerav. Today, Mr. Speaker, we have a situation in Labrador where it is becoming questionable as to whether or not we have the ability to develop the Lo<.rer t:hurchill, whethPr or nor thP. Lower ~"hurchill will be fea~ible. Ann, Mr.

Speaker, all the time, remembP.r this, we have paid an awful price not only in dollars and cents for r.his governme.nt' s procrAstination on the T.owP.r Churchill, 51 4 3

.May- 2.7~ ),98l Tape No. 18 6_8 so ~ 3 MR. FLIGHT: but since 1973 , Mr. Speaker, we have had to double the capacity of Holyrood oil base, we have had to develop Hinds Lake, we have had to develop the Opper Salmon with the i _rreparable dangers and damages and wipe - out to the environm ent ,and now, Mr. Speaker, we are wiping out the last Qiece o( real estate of this Province worth retaining.That does not bother ~he minister that t-o pAy fnr their deF;il;P to plav noli tics with. t-he r.abrador power th.at we have ~ped out, that we are doina unbelievable destruction in this Province, Mr. Soeaker.

That does not bother him at all. Butit- bot-hers a lot of pPople. And, Mr. Speaker, the orice that we have oaid, the price that this Province has oaid and the people of this Province have paid for this aovPrnment- ' s nreformanr.e and hAndlinn of the LowPr Churchill 1 Mr . Speaker, may well indeed takP years, it wrll take a long time ,but surelv as sure as the President of the Council tMr . Marshall} is sitting there one day - MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please ! MR . E'LIGHT: will realize- SOME HON. MEMBERS: - the people of Newfoundland By leave. 5144

May 27, 1981, Tape 1869, Page 1 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: -the p·rice we paid because of this administration's handling of the Lower Churchill. MR. SPEAKER(Butt): time has expired. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIGHT: more minutes. Enough is enough. Order, please! The hon. member's By leave. No, I have twenty MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the member did not want to take the leave because the hon. gentleman was struggling, I think, not just at the end but really at the beginning of his statement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman has brought in a resolution,into this Eouse,which is a Private Member's resolution which he put on the Order Paper of this House at the opening day of the House.

The operative part of it reads: "The government accept the recommendation of the Lower Churchill Development Corporation and make an immediate start on the Muskrat Falls Project, the short-term benefit being the jobs and general boost to the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador, and the long-term benefit being a stable, relatively low­ cost source of electrical power for this Province." Now, I think it is very significant that when the hon. gentleman brought in a resolution at the time which contained a suggestion - the energy critic for the Opposition - a suggestion of what was to be done in the future and what he would recommend, that he choose to consume 85 per cent, if not 90 per cent of his time talking about his impression 51 4 5

May 27, 1981, Tape 1869, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: of mistakes that had occurred in the past in the acquisition of BRINCO shares and of the premature development of the Lower Churchill site. He did not get in, Mr. Speaker, to the - you will note that he did not get into the main part of the resolution, and I am afraid that the hon. gentleman there opposite is infected, affected and effected by the· disease that has long since wormed its way into the Opposition, of talking about things, their impressions of things in the past and that, and not being constructive but, in other words, being destructive. Now, Mr.

Speaker, here is an example, too, of the energy critic. In the recitals in this resolution he starts off: "WHEREAS the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador will experience a serious electrical power shortage by the year 1985, that such shortages will increase ~ignificantly each year thereafter." Well, the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, this government has already taken a very dramatic and positive step to alleviate any possible shortages in the year 1985, as already indicated by the commencement of the Cat Arm project. MR. HANCOCK: That is not the point (inaudible) . MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, we are debating the resolution and the recitals and this is incredible for an energy critic. The energy critic of the Opposition said this, lo and beh_old: "The only on­ island sourc~ of available electrical energy to offset these shortages is by adding oil-fired generating capacity to the Holyrood Generating Station, thereby subjecting our people and industries to unbearable electrical energy costs." Now, can you imagine that? The energy critic on the opposite side of the House 5146

May 27, 1981, Tape 1869, Page 3 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: did not even know that Cat Arm existed. I make no wonder he is against it. At the time he brought this in, Mr. Speaker, he thought that the only source of generating power in this Province was the oil-fired Generating Station at Holyrood. He was obviously unaware of the Cat Arm project, he was obviously unaware of Cat Arm. He said the only source of ·electrical energy was the oil-fired Holyrood Station. Now that is the erargy critic, Mr. Speaker, in the Opposition. Can you imagine it? Now, make no wonder, Mr.

Speaker, that in their abject embarrassment the hon. gentlemen put a resolution up like this without thoroughly researching it. They have obviously put it up without researching it. And they get so embarrassed when they see that what they have said is untrue, they get up and do not talk about the resolution. Well, Mr. Speaker, I am going to talk about the resolution because it is very interesting. The operative part of the resolution talks about the recommendation of the Lower Churchill Development Corporation.

Now, as everyone knows- I say everyone, everyone on this side and most people in Newfoundland; I cannot say for the hon. gentlemen there opposite - the Lower Churchill resource is divided into two main parts, Muskrat Falls and Gull Island. And the hon. gentleman, when he talks about this recommendation, and there was a recommendation made by the Lower Churchill Development Corporation, did not want to tell us why they said the Muskrat Falls project was preferable, what the reason for it was. The Muskrat Falls has around 700 or 800 megawatts, Gull Island has about 1700 megawatts.

We cannot use in this Province 1700 megawatts. So in order for the immediate future to develop Gull Island, Mr. Speaker, to make it 5147

May 27, 1981, Tape 1869, Page 4 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: economically feasible, we would have to be able, obviou~ly, to use 1700 megawatts. Even with an aluminium smelter, Mr. Speaker, 5148

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1870 DW - l MR. W. MARSHALL: we will still have such excess power from developing Gull Island that it would make it economically infeasible. So the only way in which Gull Island can be developed, Mr. Speaker, is if we have in the short terrn,until we need it ourselves,the ability to sell the power outside. Now where do we sell it, Mr. Speaker? Do we sell it to England? No, the hon. gentlemen there opposite may be a little bit surprised to know that we cannot sell it to England. So we will tell them that we cannot sell it to India and we cannot sell it to Australia.

The only places where Newfoundland can sell its power are to our sister provinces of Canada oi to the United States of America. The ·Power Authority for the State of New York has already indicated it is willing to buy it. And why then was this recommendation that the Muskrat Falls site be used? It was because it said in the report that they did not see an immediate resolution to the problem of transmitting electrical power generated on this Province outside. They did not see, Mr. Speaker, but we see a resolution of it and we feel that that resolu- tion should be there.

But the reason, of course, when the hon. gentleman there opposite, because this has become such an issue since he brought in this resolution and did not mention it is he would have to get up and he would have to talk us through the reasons why we cannot transmit our electrical power. And the reasons we cannot transmit our electrical power, Mr. Speaker, is because we are pre­ vented from doing so bv the Government of Canada, by the Government of Canada which is controlled by the friends of the hon. gentlemen there opposite. And rather than stand up, Mr.

Speaker, as true Newfoundlanders and say, 'We have the same rights as all other Canadians to transmit our resources, our electrical power in the same 51 4 9 -.

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1870 OW - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: way as oil and gas·; tbe hon. gentlemen there opposite are too embar,:~ssed to get up because they do not want to stand up and speak out as true Newfoundlanders. Instead they want to side with their political friends in the federal government in Ottawa. Now that is the reason - MR. T. LUSH: Do not be so silly, boy. ~it down. Do not be so silly! SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! Order, please! The hon. President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: The hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) is not a very vicious man, Mr.

Speaker, but I wish there was something in the rules where ~our Honour could eradicate the vicious look on has face because it is rather awesome and frightening. It really is something, you know! SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. W. MARSHALL: He makes me virtually quiver in my shoes.But that is why, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman, the energy critic,that is why he did not deal- SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W. MARSHALL: -ehat is why he did not deal with the resolution, Mr.

Speaker,and that is why the hon. gentle­ men there opposite are choking over there now and interrupting and interjecting. The fact of the matter is it would have been much better if the hon. gentleman had brought in a reso- lution, something to the effect that this House demands, begs, implores, or whatever wording you wish to use,the federal government to recognize the basic rights of Newfoundlanders as Canadians and permit us immediate access to the transmission of electrical power r Mr. Speaker, we ~uld not only take - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 51 50 I• f.'

May 2·7, 1981 Tape ,No. 1870 DW - 3 MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, we would not on~y take the recommendation of ·the LoNer Churchill to develop the Muskrat Falls, but we \vould be able to take the recom- · rnendation to develop the Lower Churchill including the Gull Island site. And think what that would do foi the people of this Province. SOME BON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HISCOCK: (Inaudible) export it to New York. MR. w. MARSHALL: Listen to the han. member! 1 Export it to NeN York! 1 Mr, Speaker 1 Export it to New York! 1 I will tell you what, Mr. Speaker - SOME H.ON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR. HISCOCK: (Inaudible).

MR. SPBAKEiR{Butt) : I ask the hon . member for Eagle River {Mr. Hiscock) to restrain himself. Order, pleas _e! 51 51

May 27,1981 MR. SPEAKER (Bu;tt ) : the Council. MR. MARSHALL : you what we will do. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Tape No. 1871 AH-1 The hon. th~ President of Mr. Speaker, I will tell Oh,oh~ Order, please! Methinks they do protest to mu.ch, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, look we exoort it to New ' ~ ork and , you know, that is another point. If we manage ,as we will manage the affairs of this Province, we cannot use all that power immediately.

I guarantee the bon. gentlemen there opposite when this government enters into an agreement to develop the Lower Churchill and,if it has to export some of the power as it will in the short term 1 it will have adequate clauses in the contract to be able toreclaim it when the people of Newfoundland need it. And furthermore, Mr. Speaker, the hon.gentlemen there opposite might like to know that that aspect of the ~atter has already been discussed with the Power Authority of the State of New York in our discussions with them, they are aware of it and they are agreeable with it. There will be no longer, Mr.

Speaker, and hon. gentlemen there opposite need not fear about a sixty-five year contract or what have you. We will look after the interests of the people of this Province. MR. FLIGHT: FoN much is Labrador power going to cost on the Island, 'Bill'? MR. SPEAXER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon .. gentleman called me by my first name. In the parlance I am suppose to be know by the seat which I occupy,and in any event even outside I have not given the hon. gentleman liberty to use my first name. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 51 52 !'"

May 27,1981 Tape No. 1871 AH-2 MR . SPEAKER (Butt) : That is quite correct. MR. MARSHALL: Let us look at the other aspect of the resolution. Now this is the real gist of the resolution. You know,if you talk about the past we will revisit the past. The next part of the resolution says - now this is why , Mr. Speaker, they want the Muskrat Falls developed. They want the Muskrat FallP Qeveloped because Of - nOW listen and let US emblazon thiS - I the Short-term benefit being the jobs and the general boost to the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador.' Now, Mr.

Speaker, is that not true Liberal philosophy, the short-term benefit being. the jobs. They have not changed, Mr. Speaker, and that explains why - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: - the Upper Churchill was given away for sixty-five years. There were short-term jobs in 1960, Mr. Speaker, and 1970 and now the people of Quebec rather thaP the people of Newfoundland are enjoying our birthright .

We would be a have Province instead of a have­ not Province but for the zeal of the hon. gentlemen there opposite to provide short-term jobs so for the short-term they would be re~arded by the public and returned to office. This government, Mr. Speaker, governs in the interest of the people today, tomorrow and in the years to come and is not prepared to give away the birthright of the future for the short-term jobs and the political return of tomorrow. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: This is a true Liberal resolution if there ever was one. It shows, Mr.

Speaker, that the Liberal party is the same now as it was before. The member for St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr. Hancock) is embarrassed. He embraced the party, that particular party 1 if you can call it a party, he embraced the hon. members there opposite 51 53

May h ,1981 Tape No. 1871 AH-3 MR. MARSHALL: thinking that they had chanqec'l their spots and he must, Mr. Speaker, be today writhing over the fact that this has gone through caucus - oh, yes, it went through the caucus. And not just the member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight), it was not just the member for Windsor-Buchans who did not know that Cat Arm existed. These went through their caucus. The caucus did not realize, ME. Speaker, it existed.

Now, I will deal in the few moments available to me, Mr Speaker -in case there is any doubt as to what the government's intention is,I will deal with the spurious remarks made - I wish the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) would stop frowning at me, Mr. Speaker. It is reall ·y disconcerting. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HISCOCK: $25,000 to do it. MR. MARSHALL: He is not getting paid But, Mr.

Speaker, just so we will know on the record what the government's position is, !. s not surprised that the government could not possibly vote for a resolution which is going to take the development of Muskrat Falls and in effect ignore the rights of this Province to transmit electrical power through our sister Provinces in Canada. Neither, Mr. Speaker, will this government ever embrace a resolution which calls on a development to give away our resources for the purpose merely of short-term jobs. We are a long-term government. the members are short-term 1and even in their short-term, Mr.Speaker SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Oh, oh! 51 54

May 27, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) MR. MARSHALL : Tape No. 1872 NM - 1 Order, please~ - they are going backward, they are showing they are going backwards by this resolution, and they are also showing - MR. STIRLING: The Opposition (inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. MARSHALL: - they are also showing, Mr. Speaker, that they do not know - how can the minister - the member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr.

Flight)- that is a Freudian slip, minister­ how can the member for Windsor-Buchans possibly, is he going to resign as energy critic of the party, getting up and saying in his resolution that the only available electrical energy source is oil fired generating capacity, when we have come in with this great - MR. STIRLING: He will make a great Minister of Mines and Energy, one who knows something about it. MR. MARSHALL: - with this great proposal for the development of Cat Arm. Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. MARSHALL: House today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: if I can a few other - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: So we are not going to vote for it, Oh, oh: There will be no unanimity in the Now, I would like to - Oh, oh! Order, please: - I would like to go over, Mr. Speaker, Oh, oh~ I know the hon. gentleman is very disappointed of his choice of parties and he is smarting under his choice of parties. He wished he had not and he sees - 5155 r:

May 27, 1981 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. DINN: application. MR. MARSHALL: Lower Churchill - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tape No. 1872 NM - 2 Oh, oh! We are considering his Now, Mr. Speaker, on the Oh, oh! Order, please! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) MR. MARSHALL: Let me just deal very quickly with his remarks about the .Lower Churchill. He did go back into history, as he did, and he ignored his own resolution because he was embarrassed by it, because he did not want to stand as a Newfoundlander, and because he did not want to embarrass his colleagues in Ottawa.

But the fact of the matter is he went back in history, and he talked about the Lower Churcill. Well now, Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province were supposedly done in by the Lower Churcill. What happened on the start-up of the Lower Churchill is a matter of history. I remember, Mr. Speaker, when it was started up and it was not a matter of - -MR. FLIGHT: A real bluff. MR. STIRLING: so high. MR. MARSHALL : MR. FLIGHT: MR. MARSHALL: that I - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: How come the lawyers fees are There you go, you see. The biggest bluff ever - It is a matter of record, Mr. Speaker, Oh, oh!

Order, please! - that I did not agree with it, I thought the start-up was premature and subsequently, as happens from time to time, people I disagree with occasionally have to admit that they were incorrect, so they cancelled it. But what happened? The monies that were spent are unlike those spent on rubber factories and what have you. 51 56

May 27, 1981 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) Tape No. 1872 Oh, oh~ Order, · please~ NM - 3 MR. MARSHALL: What we do, Mr. sp·eaker, what this administration and what this party does, what the PC Party does, is occasionally in its zeal to develoF it does something a little bit prematurely and makes a mistake;it capitalizes on its mistakes. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Because all of that mo.ney is there today, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman knew it. The money is there in this very Lower Churchill Development Corporation that he refers to. MR. FLIGHT: What have we got? MR.

MARSHALL: It represents, Mr. Speaker, it has been capitalized and it represents the capital of this government in the Lower Churchill Development Corporation. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A point of order. A point of order, the hon. What the President of the Council is giving in the way of information he knows should be corrected to say that it is up to the federal government as to whether or not when all the agreements are put together, whether the federal government will agree to recognize that $100 million. It right now is a debt of this Province.

It still is a debt and if_they , are not careful in the next two or three days it will continue to be a debt. MR. SPEAKER: Well, there is obviously no point of order. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: took the opportunity to - MR. STIRLING: No point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition To correct him. 5157

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1872 NM - 4 - to clarify -MR. SPEAKER (Butt) MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: No point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. President of the Council has about one minute left to conclude his remarks. MR. MARSHALL: Just information given by the leader of the agents of the party in Ottawa. So, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman knows that this has been capitalized in the Lower Churchill Development Corporation. All he has to do is read the - MR. STIRLING: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman does not understand. MR. STIRLING: A point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: That is not, as the minister knows-maybe he does not know, maybe that is the problem. The problem is that it has not yet been capitalized into the assets of the Lower Churchill. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ The Chair has just ruled that that is not a point of order. The hon. President of the council has about thirty seconds left to conclude his remarks. MR. MARSHALL: All the hon. gentleman has got to do, Mr. Speaker, is read the agreements. On the takeover of the BRINCO assets, Mr.

Speaker, they complain about us reclaiming our resources by buying back - Mr. Speaker, we would not have had to do that if they had not been given away by the hon. gentlemen there opposite. Very sadly in this resolution they show a penchant to do the same.s 0 we are voting against it,if there is any doubt in Your Honour's mind. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 5158

May 27, 1981 Tape No . 1872 NM - 5 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please~ Order, please~ The hon. member's time has expired. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. 51 59

May 27, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Butt): SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: Tape 1873 EC - 1 The hon. the member for LaPoile . Hear, jlear! Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not envy Your Honour's position sometimes in this hon. House ,. but I want to congratulate Your Honour on the way in which he handles the various situations that arise in this House. Mr. Speaker, we just heard a typical St. John's East cocktail speech in this House. Nobody is a true Newfoundlander except a member of the St. John's East cocktail set, according to the hon. gentleman. The hon. gentleman obviously believes in class distinction.

The hon. gentleman, because he says that you are not a true Newfoundlander if you do not do this or you do not do that or you do not conform to the hon. gentleman's philosophy or his way of thinking, you are anything but a good Newfoundlander. Mr. Speaker, coming from a member of the St. John's East cocktail set, I would say that we would look at that kind of a statement rather askance. The hon. gentleman is still fighting Confederation. The hon. gentleman was an anti­ Confederate and he has not acknowledged the fact that Newfoundland is a part of Canada and he is still fighting Confederation.

And the hon. gentleman is living in the past, Mr. Speaker. He continuously lives in the past in this House. Every opportunity- he hates Joey so much that he cannot resist the opportunity to get the knife in and give it a twist whenever the opportunity presents itself. And if the opportunity does not present itself, then he will make his own opportunity to get at Joey. But, Mr.

Speaker, let Ee say this at the outset, that the hon. gentleman who just took his seat and all hon. members on the govermnent side of the House should get down on their hands and knees this very day, get down on their hands and knees and thank Joey Smallwood and the Liberals of this Province for one thing. 51 6 0

May 27, 1981 Tape 1873 EC - 2 MR. HANCOCK: More than one, brother. MR. NEARY: No, but there is this one thing I am aoinq to mention. MR. HANCOCK: Three hundred and thirty-three. MR. NEARY: Yes, there are three hundred and thirty-three, but one that came up yesterday in the Supreme Court.

Hon. members know that the government are spending $500,000 and it will probably go to $1 million - I am told at this moment it is $500,000 of taxpayers' money that·is being spent on legal fees involved in this case before the Supreme Court on the recall of Churchill Falls power; $500,000 spent on legal fees so far, when all the government had to do, by the way, was to send a letter to the yhurchill Falls Corporation and say, 'Mr.

Churchill Falls I Corporation, we want to recall BOO megawatts of power.' And if the Newfoundland Government could show that they needed that 800 megawatts of power, then Churchill Falls would have no recourse but to deliver that power to Newfoundland Hydro. It is just as simple as that. That is

an act of this Legislature. MR. HANCOCK: That is right. MR. NEARY: That supercedes all the law. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, what did the Supreme Court say yesterday? They said the most significant thing that they could have said, that the whole case of this government hinges on a clause in the lease agreement. And what is the clause in the lease agreement? That when Newfoundland needs the power, it can recall the power because it belongs to Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: The government's whole case - this is what the court said yesterday - the government's whole case hinges on one clause. Now, who put that clause 51 61

May 27, 1981 Tape 1873 MR. NEARY: in there? for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall)? EC - 3 Was it the member And incidentally, I might say tha t the Tories in the House at that time voted for it - it was a unanimous vote of the Hous e - the Tories voted for the development of the Upper Churchill. To a man, every member .of this House voted, including the T0ries. So the hon. gentleman is condemning his predecessors in this House every time he talks about the agreement. But, Mr. Speaker, let us not get sidetracked. It is a very, very important point that the Supreme Court when it hands down its decision - I will make a prediction now- 51 6 2

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1874 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: their decision will be based on the. clause that was put in the agreement by the Liberals when they were in power in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: That is the only hope the Province has of winni~g its case. It is the only hope and the truth will win out in the end when they hand down their decision in the Supreme Court. And that needs to be said over and over again. It n.eeds to be repeated over and over and over again so that it will sink into the thick skulls of hon. gentlemen opposite. Let me repeat it. Let me repeat.

In the case now before the Supreme Court, when the government - ' MR. STIRLING: And the whole basis of their attack is to take back the water rights. MR. NEARY: That is right. The whole case hinges, so we are told by the courts, hinges on a clause in the lease agreement, Mr. Speaker, and that clause clearly states that Newfoundland owns the power, the power has not been given away.

It belongs to Newfoundland, that we can have every kilowatt of power from the Upper Churchill by merely writing a letter to Churchill Falls Corporation, under a statute of this Province, under a law of this House, a law passed in this House 1 send a letter to Churchill Falls Corporation and ask to have the power delivered to Newfoundland Hydro. It is just as simple as that. The legislation of this Province supercedes everything else, agreements and anything else that you want to talk about. And so, Mr.

Speaker, I hope that when the Supreme Court hands down its decision based on that clause that was put in there by a Liberal Government that we will not hear the member from St. John's East (W.Marshall) or the Premier of this Province rant and rave and say, oh, another 5163 r:

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1874 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: victory. It will be the same kind of a victory as they had in Bellevue, that is the kind of a victory it will be. There will be no victory, Mr. Speaker. It is a sheer waste of taxpayers'money, it is a bonanza for the lawyers and if the government had not made the colossal blunder that it made back in 1974 we would not be in the dilernrn~ that we are in in this Province as far as the recall of power is concerned. Mr.

Speaker, as near as I can ascertain, that gigantic blunder,which will probably turn out to be the biggest blunder -in Newfoundland's . history, the nationalization of the Churchill Falls Corporation, as far as I can estimate at the moment has cost the taxpayer of this Province so far over $300 million. Now, how do I get these figures, Mr. Speaker, how do I arrive at these figures? Well, based on the information given me in an answer to a question that I put on the Order Paper to the Minister of Mines and Energy (L.

Barry), the government had to borrow $165 million to purchase the shares of Churchill Falls Corporation and another $30 million had to be put up for the water rights, the repeal of the water rights, that is $195 million back in 1974. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if you take an average of 10 per cent interest on $195- $165 borrowed from the bank and another $30 million to pay for the water rights - $195 million; if you use an average of 10 per cent interest a year - and I see my hon. friend has a pencil there; do some rough calculation and the hon. gentleman will see - let us use round figures, $200 million is what it cost, the initial cost of taking over the Churchill Falls Corporation. Ten per cent at average interest,which is low, very conser­ vative with a small 'c' that would be $20 million a year for seven years is $140 million.

So, you add that on the $200 51 b 4 ,. ,,.

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1874 EL - 3 MR. NEARY: million and that is $340 million it has cost so far. Approximately . $340 million it has cost the taxpayers of this Province for that colossal blunder that will go down as the biggest blunder in Newfoundland's history, the nationalization 5165

May 27, 1981, Tape 1875, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: of the Churchill Falls Corporation. And as my hon. colleague so well put it when he was speaking, the reason given this House, Mr. Speaker, the reason that we were given in this House, and you talk about a House being misled, and members being misled, the reason given in this House, and _ Your Honour was not here, but I was here - MR. TULK: ashamed to come back They should be again should they not? MR. NEARY: Who should be hanging their heads in shame, Mr. ~peaker? Who should be hanging their heads in shame?

The reason we were given was because they had to have the water rights back in order to develop the Lower Churchill, back in 1974. And then before the '75 election, just to put the icing on the cake, just to show you how sincere they were, just to show you how far advanced in their plans they were, just to show you all the markets they had for the power, BOOM: on both sides of the Strait of Belle Isle, another $210 million. MR. TULK: $210 million? MR. NEARY: $210 million, not $100 million.

I am adding the interest on to that too now, by the way. $100 million which had to be borrowed, $10 million a year interest on that, that is $550 million added to the indirect debt of this Province. That is only a 10 per cent interest rate I am using. A half billion dollars, $500 million, added to the public debt of this Province. Why, how the taxpayers ever tolerate it, I will never know. Obviously they do not know the facts, the facts have not filtered out to them. MR. TULK: And that was done with the financial genius of Crosbie. MR.

NEARY: Well, Bully Boy was one of the culprits, but a couple of the culprits are 5156

May 27, 1981, Tape 1875, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: still. over there. $550 million down the tube, down the drain, wasted, Mr. Speaker. And,now, when they had an opportunity to develop the Lower Churchill, back in 1972 and 197.3, it would have cost about $1.5 billion. No, not $1.5 billion, it would have cost $1 billion to develop the Lower Churchill. The plans were in place, the development was · ready to go ahead, all they needed to do was call public tenders. That was nine years ago.

Hon. members surely must know that nine years ago the development of the Lower Churchill was in place and ready to go ahead for less than $1 billion. Now what is the cost of developing the Lower Churchill? MR. HISCOCK: MR. NEARY: MR. HISCOCK: MR. NEARY: MR. HANCOCK: $500 million that it cost. MR. NEARY: $550 million and what have you got? About $4.5 billion. How much? About $4.5 billion. $4.5 billion. Not counting the Add that on to the MR. HANCOCK: $4.5 billion. MR. NEARY: No, I cannot be hypocritical about it, they ~ve not spent the $4.5 billion but that is what it would cost.

And if they do go ahead with the development, they have added a further burden to taxpayers of this Province of $3.5 billion, wasted. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not going to get into high financing, but these are the facts of the situation. These are the facts. And if there is anybody who should hang his head in shame in this House - at least Mr. Smallwood got a development going. At least he got it going, whether it be good, bad or indifferent. But this crowd cannot point to one industry 51 0 7

May 27, 1981, Tape 1875, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: that they have started in this Province since t~ey took over ten years ago, not one industry. And I would submit, Mr. Speaker, that pretty soon the oil better start flowing or Messrs Premier and Company are going to be in serious trouble. I forecast the other day that pretty soon, at the rate she is going in this Province, with the high cost of living, with record unemployment, with a housing shortage, with the vandalism and crime increasing in this Province, with the cost of living and the taxes in this Province, there will be rioting in the streets.

It is worse now - we are passing right now through a recession in this Province that would make the dirty thirties look like small potatoes. Never before have I seen and heard so much discontent in Newfoundland and so many people looking 5168

May 27, 1981 MR. S. NEARY: frustrated. Tape No. 1876 for jobs and so many people Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province felt,ten years ago~when this government took over, they felt that the Lower Churchill was going to be developed and that there would be a reduction in electricity rates in this Province - their hopes and expectations were built up - and that there would be employment resulting from the development of the Lower Churchill. But no, it has not ·. happened. O:Che people have been let down.

And this very ' day . while we are debating this wonderful resolution brought in by my colleague, by the way, the Premier is down in New York trying to negotiate markets, markets for the surplus power from DW - 1 the Lower Churchill. Negotiating markets! I thought 'Joey' was the only one who did that. The only difference now is they say, 'Well, we will not make the same mis­ tak~ that 'Joey' made. They have not got a contract yet.

There is no hope of their ever getting a contract with their attitude, nobody will touch them with a barge pole, no bond houses or no industrialists will touch them with a barge pole, Mr. Speaker. And so I would say if anybody in this House should hang their heads in shame,it should be the hon. crowd who sit opposite. It is amazing, you know, how they can jump over the mistakes of the last ten years. They jump over all the corruption and the mistakes of the last ten years to get back at 'Joey' . And that is not goinq to help '\;he situation, Mr. Speaker.

That is not going to put bread on the tabl~ of people in this Province, that is not going to solve the unemployment problem. 'Joey' is gone, he is out of politics and that defence is very weak. It is not going to work. It does not wash I•Ti th the people of this Province anymore. The people want action. They want 51 6 9 r:

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1876 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: performance. They want to know what the track record of this government is since they took over. Are you going to develop the Lower Churchill? When are you going to develop it? How much is it going to cost? What benefits will Newfoundland get? What time is the oil going to start flowing? That is what they want to know. They are fed up with all the talk about oil and gas, they want to know when will the oil start flowing? And if it is not flowing pretty soon, Mr.

Speaker, you are going to see an awful lot of trouble ahead, an awful lot of trouble ahead for this administration. . You are going to see riots in the str~ets before this is all over. So I am glad to have an opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to have a few words on this resolution. I support th~ resolution. If the government votes against it,! do not know but we should do the same thing that the government is doing themselves. We had another resolution in this House last week or the week before last,and it boiled down to a political decision, a decision taken along 9artisan political lines and the vote was taken.

And now the government are buying ads in newspapers, a new low in this Province, buying ads in news­ papers to say the Liberals voted this v.ray and the Tories voted this way. And they have the resolution manipulated to try to serve some political purpose for the administration. I am surprised the hon. member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey) tolerates that kinds of politics. So, Mr. Speaker, the only thing that I can say is that,having listened to the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), I hope he was not stating government policy.

I hope earlier toda~ when he was defending the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn 1 who interfered with the judicial process in this Province, I hope he was·. net ~sta.ttng government policy. I would be very disappointed, the people will be awfully discouraged and disillusioned if the hon. gentle- 51 7 0

Hay 27, 1981 Tape No . 1876 ow - 3 MR. S. NEARY: man was stating government policy. What the government shou~d be doing , instead of trying to critic ize poor old 'Joey',who is trying to write an encyclo­ pedia on the history of Newfoundland 1 what the government should be doing, Mr. Speaker, under this resolution,is telling this House and telling the people of Newfound~and what their plans are to develop the Lower Churchill. That is what they should be doing .

They should be taking a positive, constructive approach to this, not play politics with it, as they have been doing for the last ten year s, and tell us what their plans are, 't:~ll us what they are going to do . The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, they have no plans, they have not done anything and they cannot point a finger to one new industry or one new project that they have started in this Province in the last ten years. MR . J . HODDE:R: Mr. Speaker, there is no 51 71

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1877 SD - 1 MR. HODDER: quorum in the House. It is my understanding that: government is charged with the responsibility of keeping a quorum in the House and formuch of the speech here therewereonly three members in the House, Mr. Sneaker. MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : We will have a quorum call. But I think when the House Leader for the Opposition (Mr. Hodder) rose there were fourteen but we do not have fourteen now~ We have a quorum call. count the members. DR. COLLINS: I will ask the Clerk to please There is a quorum present. The hon.

Minister of Finance I r.hink we have just seen a moRt incredible thing, Mr. Speaker. Todav is Wednesday.You know, the rules of this House sav that for four of the five sittincr days there shall be government measures, that is essentially what the rules say. On the fifth dav 1 which happens to be Wednesday,that will be for the Onposition, that will be their day to bring forward concerns of theirs. Essentially it is Private Members' Day ann a~ least that gives the opnortunity for the Opposition to call the order of the day.

And in actual fact that is what happened todav, the Opposition called the order tonay. it is an OpPosition resolution. And what dn we find, Mr. Sneaker? We finn that they aim to close up the House. Now,is that a responsible attitude for the Opposition to take? The very nay when they can brinrr forward something that they say they have on their minds, they have great concern about, at the slightest opportunity they want to close up the House and prevent t:he neonle's House from operating. I think it is increnible, I think it is absolutely astounding that this is the approach that the Opposition should take.

I am not surprised, Mr. Sneaker, because I think we have a verv ineffectual Opposition at 51 7 2

Mav 27, 1981 Tape No. 1877 SD - 2 DR. COLLINS: the present time, I think the leadership of the OPposition is very. -very strange. I have onlv bePn in this House, say, five or six years, I think, but I have seen a number of Leaders of the Opnosition and I can say 1 from mv certain knowledcre, that the leadership of the Opnositinn at the present time is the strangest leadership of the Opnositi_on I have ever seen. It does not have the vigor that was thP.re when the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Roberts) was in place. it does nor. have, shall we sav, the intellectual capacity as when the hon. member for Twillingate (M'r. W. Rowe) was in place MR. HODDER: · A point of order, Mr. Sneaker. MR. SPF.AKF.R (Rarid): Leader for the Onposition. ~1R. HODDER: St. John's Centre - is it? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HODDER: A point of order, the House Mr. Speaker, the member for South. South. You hardly know which district hP- is from because he is so ·insicrnificant in the House, Mr. Speaker. But, Mr. Speaker, his comments are not relevant to the bill whirh we are debating.

He has not menr.ioned the LOWP-r Churrhill or thP re•oD•tinn sincP he starte~ spPaking. I mighr. point nut.~s WPll, Mr. SpP-akP.r, t-.hat- it is the dnty nf the Hnuse and the House Whip on the government side of the House to keep a quorum here. And any member may direct the Sneaker's attentinn tn thP fact that t-here is not- a qnornm. When only threP members of thP govern­ ment side, thP governincr Party of this Provinre,arP. sit-ting in this HnusP ona Bill which is as important as this one, you know, Mr. Speaker, I feel that the government should hang their heads in shame. But, Mr.

Speaker, my point of order is that the member is not being relevant. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker,, 5173 , -

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1877 · 50 - 3 MR . SPEAKER(Baird) : To the point of order , 'the hon . t .he Pr esident of the Cou nci l . MR. MARSHALL~ The member is obviously beinq r elevant, ne was talking about the lack of any denth.. in the. Ooposition. And it is been shown - it is all very relevant, because the hon . membe r is going to 51 7 4

May 27, 1981 Tape 1878 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: get on to the fact that there is ~ resolution before this House right now by the Opposition,and the energy critic, which does not even acknowledge the fact that Cat Arm exists, let alone discuss whether it should be developed. So they are very relevant when he is talking abou~ the lack of quality, Mr. Speaker, in the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : To the point of order. There is no point of order. I think the opportunity was taken to - remarks made by the hon. the Minister of·Finance (Dr. Collins).

While some degree of flexibility is allowed, I would now ask the hon. the minister to get on with the subject at hand. DR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As you say, there was no point of order. I was merely pointing out that we are supposed to be debating today a very important resolution and the Opposition, through the type of leadership it has, was trying to scuttle that opportunity for the House to do that. It was trying to close up the House so that we could not debate this very important resolution, and I was making that point. And that is very relevant to this resolution.

Just to finish off the remarks I was going to say, we also had a Leader of the Opposition here, who took a very responsible view - I am talking about the former member for Bellevue, the hon. Don Jamieson. His image was implanted on the Opposition and I think it was a very good image, but I am afraid the Opposition now has sadly fallen down from that. I hope that the Opposition will not get into the habit of trying to undermine important business in this House as they tried to do today when they tried to close up the House just as 5175

May 27, 1981 Tape 1878 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: the debate on this ~solution was going forward. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is a very important subject. I think the wording of the Resolution leaves a great deal to be desired. It is very sloppily written. It has not clearly been thought through,_ obviously. It says here that 'Newfoundland and Labrador will experience a serious electrical power shortage by the year 1985.' I am not certain where that information carne from. The information that I have is that there is no real danger of a serious shortage until 1986.

And I have read quite a number of relevant documents to this effect, that we can survive until 1986 with proper management, and that is what this administration continually gives. My hon. colleague, the President of the Council (Mr.· Marshall),has also pointed out that in the second

WHEREAS paragraph, the person who brought in this resolution apparently was unaware that there is, in actual fact, another site for development of hydro-electric power on this Island. So that is a rather sloppily-worded section. Muskrat Falls - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Baird): DR. COLLINS: supply - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: The next one there says that Oh, oh! Order, please! - will give a stable, long-term Oh, oh! Order, please! The Chair has to hear what is going on, and I am sure all hon. members would like to hear what is going on. Whilst we allow some discussion back and forth across the House, the Chair is having 51 7 6

May 27, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : for order, please. DR. COLLINS: MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Tape 1878 EC - 3 difficulty, so I would ask The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker - On a point qf order, Mr. Speaker. On a point of order, t~e hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: I am glad that the Speaker brought it to the attention of the House. We are having problems hearing him too.

I wonder could you ask him to speak up or turn up his microphone b.ecause he has sort of been mumbling through his beard and muttering and, I mean, they are such pearls of wisdom that I would like to hear it as well, up and speak DR. COLLINS: MR. SPEAKER: the Minister Mr. Speaker. up. of Finance. So could you ask him to straighten Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. To the point of order, the hon. DR. COLLINS: I could hear myself perfectly well over here, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: My volume, Mr. Speaker, is no match for the Leader of the Opposition.

It has often come to my mind, with his great volume, his loud laugh - it often comes to mind that old saying, 'The loud laugh bespeaks the vacant mind'. So I would just like to throw that pearl of wisdom out. But, Mr. Speaker, to the point of order, I would suggest that if hon. members opposite wish to hear what I have to say, if my volume is a little low, if they maintain a modicum of silence, perhaps that will help. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. However, all members of the House have the right to be heard in silence and evidently - 51 7 7

May 27, 1981 Tape 18.78 EC - 4 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird ) : Order, please! Evidently, we are having some difficulty in hearing the speakers. I would ask everybody to adhere to the House ruling. 51 7 8 I• (."

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1879 EL - 1 DR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And I am glad that you made that very forceful remark there. I do not know if the hon. members opposite are aware of the fact that when the Speaker stands, when the Speaker is speaking, no one is supposed to talk, make noice or, indeed, laugh. The hon. members opposite, - apparently - MR. MARSHALL: Jackasses. DR. COLLINS: - are not aware of that fundamental rule of parliamentary procedure. MR. NEARY: On a point of order. The hon. gentleman just made a statement and now he is running out of the House, Mr. Speaker. AN HON.

MEMBER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: AN HON . MEMBER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Baird): for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I am on a point of order. You are not in your seat. Oh, oh! A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. member Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman who talks about the decorum of this House, who is so sanctimonious and pure, the image he tries to portray in this House, just made an unparliamentary statement by referring to the Opposition as jackasses. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has no choice but to withdraw that statement. It is unparliamentary.

It is unbecoming of the dignity and decorum of this Kouse and the bon. gentleman should have the courage and be man enough, if be is a roan and not a mouse, to withdraw that unparliamentary remark. DR. COLLINS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the Minister of Finance. 51 7 9

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1879 EL - 2 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. I think Beauchesne outlines the particular nouns which are unparliamentary and, as far as I recall, that particular noun is not in that group. Now, I think a jackass is an animal. I think it is a very noble animal. I think it is a compliment to the Opposition to be compared to a noble animal like a jackass. MR. MARSHALL: them, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAXER (Baird) : As a matter of fact, it elevates To that point of order, I am sorry I did not, because of the noise that I have previously spoken about, hear what was going on and I reserve judgement until I check Hansard. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: Thank you, Your Honour. The Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, we have had quite a number of interruptions since I started to speak, and I think that underlines the first point I was making, that is, that the Opposition have no interest in this particular resolution.

Now, this resolution deals with one of the primary industries and one of the resources of this Province that is going to shape our future. And I think the Opposition, in a number o£ ways, is showing that they either have no interest in it or no concept of the importance o£ this particular resource. The fact that they tried to close the House, the fact that they are interrupting and preventing debate from going forward, the fact that the only cogent comment that the Leader of the Opposition seems ,to be able to make in terms of this resolution, because I ao not think he has spoken yet, is a rather braying noise.

I think that all these points show that the Leader o£ the Opposition and the Opposition, generally, have really no concept of the importance o£ hydro electric power as a natural resource in this Province. 51 8 0 ,,

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1879 EL - 3 DR. COLLINS: To get back to the points that I was making, Mr. Speaker, the third paragraph - it speaks of 'stable, long-term supply of relatively low-cost electrical energy'. Now, that is an incredible statement, Mr. Speaker. And it was presumably written by the energy critic opposite. Muskrat Falls is not going to give us relatively low~cost electrical energy. That is an incredible misconception of the development, the hydro-development that is going to go on in Labrador. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). DR. COLLINS: Relatively low cost of what? Relatively low cost to Bay d'Espoir?

Relatively low cost to Gull Island? Relatively low cost to the Upper Churchill? Relatively low cost tc;> the power that is being generated at Holyrood? The Muskrat Falls power will be more expensive than all those sources I have just mentioned, so that there seems to be a tremendous lack of knowledge, or lack of any sort of insight into hydro electric generation by members opposite. It is very difficult to speak to this resolution, it is so poorly written, it shows such abyssmal ignorance of the whole subject. And to go on to the last thing there, Mr.

Speaker: And resolve that the Lower Churchill Development Corporation - 'and make an immediate start on the Muskrat Falls project', make an immediate start on the Nuskrat Falls project. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER CBaird) : DR; COLLINS: opposite - MR. NEARY: Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I do not know if Jlleznbers (.Inaudible) . 51 8 1 r:

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1879 EL - 4 MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! I will ask the member for LaPoile (S. Neary) to restrain himself. DR. COLLINS: I do not know if, Mr . Speaker - he does not bother me, the member for LaPoile does not bother me, few of them do, actua~ly. I do not know if members opposi~e ever read the book, BRINCO, which outlined the development of the Upper Churchill. 5182

May 28, 1981 Tape 1880 PK - 1 DR. COLLINS: The Upper Churchill did not have the federal government standing in the way of its development. The Upper Churchill did not have the financial costs that are presently in place with interest rates and inflation that we see now, did not have these in place at the time. They -did not have the same diff-iculties with marketing that we have at the present time. Despite all of that, Mr.

Speaker, it took from 1962 to 1967, I believe, perhaps late 1966 or early 1967, approximately five years to get that project in place,to get the technical sid~ of it worked out, to get the financial packet put together, to get the details of the marketing done. And now to talk of making an immediate start on Muskrat Falls is an incredibly abyssmally ignorant view of how these things are done. It is laughable to think that this can happen. They give the impression that all you have to do is go and take a oickaxe, run up to Labrador and start building a dam up there and away you go.

I mean it is a_ most naive , it is a most juvenile attitude and opinion to take about the development of a major hydro electric resource. Now, Mr. speaker, there are a number of other things that are not written in here that show how abyssmally behind the times, shall we say, our friends opposite are in regard to this whole thing. implied in here. It is not written in here, but When the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) spoke, when he opened the debate on this resolution, he seemed to indicate that there was no place for a federal guarantee in this., Mr.

Speaker, LCDC cannot operate, LCDC cannot develop Muskrat Falls without a federal guarantee. It requires a federal guarantee to put a financial package together. It is impossible otherwise to do it. 5183

May 28, 1981 Tape 1880 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: Now, Mr. Speaker, why should that be so? The reason for it is that the Province itself does not have the financial capability of putting together a financial packet to develop this on its own. Now,that comes as a surprise - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: That comes as a surprise to the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling). A smile spreads over his face. It is the firs-:. time he has ever heard of it. Now, Mr; Speaker,- the most casual student of politics and development in this Province knows that that has been so for years, everyone knows that.

That has been so for years. The Province on its own cannot finance the Muskrat Falls development, it needs federal guarantees behind it. That is common knowledge. It is nothing new. I mean,the Leader of the Opposition,obviously the thought just occurred to him, but I can assure him that that is common knowledge,that everyone has known it for years and years and years. Now,why is a federal guarantee needed? The reason why a federal guarantee is needed is the output from Muskrat Falls will only satisfy the needs of the Island, and the relatively small amount that also would be required in Labrador.

There is no surplus for export, so there is no customer who is going to come along and help to finance this. It has to be done either by the Province itself, and the Province has not got the financial strength to do it, or as a Province of Canada it has every right to look to the federal government for assistance in development matters like this. It will require to have a federal guarantee. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing firmly in place to suggest that the federal government is willing,despite the fact that this will be of such great benefit to the people of this Province, despite the fact that 5184

May 28, 1981 Tape 1880 PK - 3 DR. COLLINS: this is one of the most studied sources for electrical energy this Province has, despite all of that, the federal government has not come forward and put firmly in place _its intention, its undertaking to 51 8 5

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1881 DW - 1 DR.J. COLLINS: give a federal guarantee over this. · Now that, Mr. Speaker MR. L. STIRLING: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : A point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, it appears that the government has decided to develop a policy of giving the most incarrect information. And the information is that there is a Board of Directors controlled by the Province of Newfoundland. And having the Government of Canada, that Board of Directors - now, the Board of Directors here may not report back to the Government - DR. J.

COLLINS: MR. SPEAKER: Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. A point of privilege, the hon. 'the Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) has clearly not pointed out in any way that I am in disorder in regard to my actions in this House. He has not pointed that out at all. What he is doing is he is interfering with my privileges in this House, that is,my privilege of being recognized by the Speaker and entering into debate. Now he is getting up on a point that he calls a point of order,which is not a point of order.

He has not made any point of order after seven or eight sentences there,and the whole line of those sentences do not point to any point of order. He is interfering with my privileges and I would ask that he be reprimanded and be informed that standing to speak, claiming it to be a point of order and not making a point nf order, is an interference with the privileges of an hon. member. MR. L. STIRLING: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. 51 8 6 .. .

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1881 ow - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Butt): To the point of privilege,the hon. Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. L. STIRLING: To the point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, and that is what we are dealing with, the point of privilege, for him to get up and to interrupt when _I had not finished my point of order is,in itself,an abuse of the privileges of this House beci'l"'" ~ 1e knows a point of privi­ lege is very serious matter. It has been referred to by the Speaker many times,that a point of privilege ought rarely to be introduced in the House. And all of the re~~r~nces, Mr.

Speaker, that you are quite well aware of- a minister who abuses the privileges of this House,because he knows a point of privilege takes precedence over every­ thing else,gave him the opportunity to get up because he did not have the patience to wait until I had finished my point of order'. Mr. Speaker . tt,~t is clearly the most flagrant abuse of the rules of ·Jrivilege of the House and he should not be allowed to get away with it, MR. HODDER: And he a fonrer Deputy Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of privilege, let me say that I was about to call the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Stirling) to order because it is certainly not proper to get up on spurious points of order. And the hon. Leader of the Opposition was not making an accurate point of order and,therefore, he was indeed interrupting the hon. minister. You know, I do not think we should,as hon. members in this House,continue to do that. The hon. Minister of Finance has about one minute to conclude his remarks. DR. J. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 51 B 7

May 27, 1981 MR. L. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: Tape No. 1881 DW - 3 A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. Leader Just to get this correct. I have absolutely no objection to the Speaker ruling on my question of order. But it was the minister who got into it on a point of privilege and I do not believe the Speaker has ruled on whether that was a point of privilege. I 11J•VP. nn ,.,,__.;~,..,+:ion to the Speaker calling me! to order, but I could not anticipate that the Speaker was going to call me to order because I had not finished the point of order.

So I would like a clarification, Mr. Speaker, I have not heard your ruling on the point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: WelJ, there is no point of privilege. As was pointed out earlier 1 and.-,rivilege is a very serious matter and it is not very frequent that it would come to the floor of the House. But the whole matter of the hon. Leader of the Opposition's(Mr. Stirling) point of order _interrupting the hon. minister, you know, I dealt with it in the best way I could under the circumstances. Now the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) has about thirty seconds to conclude his remarks. DR. J. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. Mr. Speaker, to finish off then, we need a federal guarantee if Muskrat is to go ahead. If hon. members opposite can use their influence to have Mr. Lalonde,who has not - as a matter of fact,to my knowledge, he has leaned in the opposite direction. He has leaned in the opposite direction to giving a guarantee to the Province for the development of Muskrat Falls. If our friends opposite 5188

May 27, 1981 Tape No. 1882 IB-1 DR. COLLINS: can entice· Mr. Lalonde to take a positive view,! think that there is some value to this resolution. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER (BUTT) : Order, please! The hon. minister's time has expi~ed. The hon. member for Terra Nova. SO~~ HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, it is absolutely amazing how hon. members on the other side can wiggle their way out of difficult problems and difficult situations. They have two approaches, Mr. Speaker. When the Opposition sort of corner them they have two approaches. One is to blame Ottawa for anything they cannot do, For any lack of action, any lack of positive activity on their

part it is because of Ottawa. And secondly, their other approach is to condemn the Opposition as having no concept of the matter, no under- standing of it at all. Mr. Speaker, to hear them talk you would think that each one of us should be in special opportunity classes. You know, it is something! It is absolutely fantastic! You would not know but one had to . pass an IQ test to get on the other side. And as I have said before they have got so many over there whose IQs and neck size are the same. There are three or four of them over there in the Cabinet whose IQ size and neck size are equivalent.

They have the same numbers. MR. DINN: (Inaudible) the hon. member. MR. LUSH: So, Mr. - and the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) fits that admirably, fits it admirably, Mr. Speaker, to hear the w