PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 60 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MAY 21, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

''ay 21, Fl71 The J!ouse ' 1ct at 11 :nn A.M. ~'r. r,pt'nkcr in the Chrtir. Tnpe 718 (norninr,) PP.FSf)ITI::c PFTITION~ rl: - l tT. W. --- ~--·- ~fr. Speaker, I have the honour to present a petition fron the fishermen of Lower Island Cove, or I can say mostly from. Althour;h the naries are from Lower Island Cove, I can say it is mostly from the fishernen of all of i-'.m-~foundland. It concerns this new regulation that the Federal Government have ir.iposed on the salmon fishery. t'r.

Speaker, those f ishernen concerned have fished alJ their li fetine, Hith their ~randfather,; havinp; salmon nets, their fathers and now themselves. But all of a sudden,this year, they have been tolil hy the Federal Fisheries that they cannot put out a salmon net. i:ow this is not hearsay, I have heen down among those people.

I know the people, I knov.~ then for thirty years, knouing that they hnve been salmon fishim,. nut, because they did not have a licence last year,throuph sickness or ::hroup_h the fishery officer not being coning into the settlement and !:::;. uinp­ a lic~ncc to them, t.hey have been deprived of a livlihood that they have earned all their lifetime.. I do not know who drew up the regulations. It is one of the silliest rer:ulations in this world.

I can agree that lte must conserve salnon, but I think, in all fairness to the fishern,en. they should h11.ve been riven a years' notice of what they could do, ::ot all of a sudden when a man, this present winter, because he lost his nets last yenr t:ith the ice, uent 'and boup:ht the new nets, got them ready, he had six nets - that man has a licence for one net, hecause that was all he had at the end of the yearf he lost the rest of then with ice. Jh;it r.;m harl a partner~ the two of them fished together.

But, this year their sons grew u:1 1 The partner decided he W{l.S f!Oinr, out hy himself "t-dth his son* That r;m has heen denied a l:icence. That man cannot even catc!1 a salron. l!e hns rot to w,1.tch 1 I l-."ill not call certain people v:,hat ti,, ... ::irr' 1 but tl--:ey are not fi:f'iheTT1en, T:1ey arc- not dcrlvint:': their 1ivinf'" 4298

1" 71, 1'1 71 Tapr. 7JH (rnrnln,.,.) 11 1• (.'All:1nr"S · hy fi;,hinr>-. They are derivinr, their Uv:inP: r. .. , some other f;ntir,e. Eut thcv have s,1ln0n nets out, and they nre tBkinl" the hre.:i.CT nnd hott;,r rir•l\t nnt of tf-iat fisllcr~en 1 s J'TlOUth">, l'fl':. 'T" .,,.,,,: "onn1 i f'htf'.TS, dH~rr ,1 T"an 1nst year 1,ad to r.o in hospit,11 and did not ro fishinp. I 11ad n <lnctor's certificnte sayinP that the ~an could not ro fishin~. That nan v.1:, rlenir:,d .'.l Jiu~ncc. 1 appealed iL t hnrmcn to r,et that one throm~h for th;it rnn to ro fishinp. J'f'''.. Tnn.uclfhk.

Lfvinr in the outrorts lil-:c I do, rnixinr with rr:y fisherrrm. f>'-'f'r\' 11,1r {' (>n th,1t ,~f"'ti tion T :in thP:ir personal frii=>n0s. T do not ro ct1H1 11:1vr tn 1·nn('.cr ,,;J;o t!"'.f':Y :trc. I knm-: hci" nnc 1~ fish the:, rot lnst ::rn7r'rr. 1 h~c1· 1101-• nur::h r,nlron thcv rot. I !·now how nuct1 they earncrl h,rry rdcl·i1;'"'. I knot,' everytb"inp ahout the,,.,. They are Solid citizens. r11t tc, be 1l~ni0~ t~c rirl1t, j11st tn he denied t!1e rirht to earn n 11vinr 1 1,v s0rr( 1nf•, 1 do nrt hla,,e on n top Governrent. I hlaf"!e it on someon~ n tliJ':'. 1'1ttl0. circ]c.

Soreone says~ 1-.·e ;ire r:cdnr. to rerulnte the s.11.-,on fj s 1-:c.r:; rmri this is the lo.P. ''.o'.' 1 thin!-. i.t is tine for us, as reriresentinr t~e people of ''r,•·f01..mdlcmrl, t~e fif1.11 eri,..cn of !:ewfoundln.nrl. T thinl: it is ti.Fe for us, 1•Jtb our rrn.,rtrrrnt of Fisb~riP:s.to sit r.m.'"11 ~•ith soreonr and s;,:,1)00 1· JC't us pii:c th~ rovs n c!wncc this year ,rnd next yenr. tell t11er vl1.cit is r,0,irir, ;ihcnt 1 fr,r n0xt ve:ir, riv£' the~ a vedrs' notice. TpJl t'.:crn •·h,1t is roipr nL0:1d fC'lr next ye:tr.

Let thP-r povcrr: tliPr-s<:lvcs nccronli.nr1y. h,1t for 1·cul · s s.i! <'. loo\.: nt uh:1t Fe .1rP f'ivi.-,r- ther ~ncl ~ny 1•!1;,t PC ,,r0 thf' nr:J.vcr of tls:i.s nct1tion. hut I vish to sav th:1t in thf' tire th,,t 1 'f:. h,....,\'C' h0rn ;"I l'r0vincP of Cnn.11"1.:1 this is the rrst sturdrl thinfl' ()tt.1.~·,1 i,;is c:nr.c "PL 1 t Jst:;-_,~ars dlscri...,•tion. Tt baffles t 1 ie hur:1:1 rind to 1:~·'crc;t:1ri1 1 42D8

Tapp 71R (morninp,) PK - 3 fishC>rr 1 cn jn tit:Pfotmdlnnd vould defy this Otti'ma rule and r,o and fish anvhov. the ~lA.t!f ound1 and l>overnnent uould he most proud and hanpy to dr,fcnd tlv:''."' nll in the cnurts, if 0ttawa is sturdd enourh to tak0 thf'ri into court. It :is tb:, rrost stupid thing that butnbledom, officialdom. h1:I"\.gling officin1do ... 7ne- ever clone. It is scam]alous. It just bPggars description. ~~r. ~nC'nkcr, if you -vere sick l;lst year, you did not and could not fish~ youdidnot pl't a licence this year.

If you 1.-:c.nt in for uprradinr, unrlC"r n rerlcral schPnc 1nnn <lid not po fishin~ lnst year, you do not rct n li crnce this ycnr. Last year, if you were a si·iriper rr!an, you rot a licence. If you t.10re n shipped man, employed hy a skipricr-rnn, vou were tnlrl vou <lid n0t n{'cd n licencP., so you did not pct one. ft11t this yC'nr. you do not pet one. if you did not have one last year. Ynu l7ere told lnst year that you did not need one if you were fishin~ with a !':kipper~ the ski.r,ncr had a licence. You were fishinr vith hin, you did not need a licence.

This year, because you did not have a licence last year, ym do not rct nne. Pov stup:J.cl can they pet? ::m-:• everyhody Y..nows thnt Jack Davis is an ablf' and conscicnti.ous man. l believe he has heen a rood minister. Ee has heen one cif the t'cst ninisters of fis~eries, if not the hest,since Confederation. nut, nnd he cannot knnv what has h.:.ppened. Pe cannot be aware of it. I do not think for a f"linute he would - ::I',:._ _ _;_'tT'_~_:,·-_:_ T!•cre is no one to tell him vhat has happened 1 only tlie six '!!!. ~U.\J,L'TH'>f): The ~ix nuis:1nces. The six nuiti;mces. That is Phnt they nrc.

Tl-nt i!', l+at they are. Pe are riot tnlkinr nl--out th::>r1. Pe inr: not there. A''.. 1w1::. 'T"n:7r• !n,:rndi11le. -~---»-» - - » » ----- 1,.3GO

;1v 21, 1n71 Tape 71R (ni.rht) PK - 4 S'~':-_l~~'!_~':J~: tn1ktnr ahout the hon. Jnd' Davis, Canada's ~anister of F1sl7f•rirs, ,1nrl T aM s:iyinr> thnt I think he cannot be aware of it. But surclv his ilr>nuty "inister is ;:mare of it. Surely his officials are aware of it. ~11r0lv, surely, the l'f'1'5 rust core to him somehow. '.!ow, "r.

Sprah;r, I nr. prcnared to a<lnit this. t v_•ill admit this, that corsC'rv«tions me:1.surcs have to te t;i.ken. 1 would rather see then 1 put :1. c1or:r ~r.,"on on ;':i,tlrnn tLltorether th.nn restrict the catch in the stupid vnvs .1ncl t11e unjust vnys that they t'\nve adopted, the ways that tl:p•: hnvc ;u\n: 1 tf'tl. If vou h:we n rood purpose in mind. you are tryini:c to rN1ucr the. ;mount of s:ilf'lon t<ll".en. That is a good purpose. It is consf'rvntlon. ··aybc, if it i:s not done very quickly ,there will be no s.1J rnn. f, 11 rj r-ht !

So you are out to nccor::p 1 ish a r,ood purpose J l,ut 1"\,Jy UBIJ' stupirl ,·nys t0 clo it; I think our people would accept a corplete closdsenson in preference to this unjust, this unfair ,my in which tlwv are doinr it. Look. I hmH' th1s word pets to Ottnwil. I would like to sr>P 1, 00n ~« lrnn f i sh~rrf'n defy the law, hreal: it and ro out and ,:o fl~hinr withn11r ;} 1:fcence. ,\l"!rl if nttm:a rlarE>s to arrest t!~e~. the : 1f't-rfoundl.:tm! CnvPnir"ent viJ1 dr>fe:1~1 theri. to the lafit inch. It is scandnlou;:;. "2'"·~ n"l'._T_!'}1}'• •1r.

Spe;1J:,cr, if I nay, of all the balderdash I have ever he«rd i.n r.y life, in sunr,ortinP this petition t:as the Premier just not-.'. This Covernncnt. ~ir, !~ave cr;it-1led on their bellies to Ottawa for years. •:011 I vould 1 ikc to support this petition and I would urge the f'.ovcrnr•cnt !"'Im:. ns we have l>ecn urpinr. them, Sir, to wake strong rP!)n::scntati.nn to nttrwa on behalf of our fishernen. < " I just rr3tle it. ·•r, '·'i'!"'P!'Y: You Just 1:1n.de it. I thoupht i:e r.iade it on February 19, "'301

PK - 5 ~m~':!_ 12tPllY~. I know a r,cnt)Pman, Sir, who was in my office the other day, broupht in 120 s,llmon nets for fishemen on the Southern Labrador, This rian is in the snlron hu~iness. What can he do tdth tlw.r.1? He cannot sell then. Pe c.nnnot expect the fishcrnen to pa~1 for them, hecause they are not al1rn-Td t0 put then in the ~~:tter. 'fi:is Government r:oes alonr. u,ith a lot of halderdn!".h and everythi.n1 7 else. And they stnnd up here in this llottsr> un:i.n:r fishemf>n to t-reak the lau, where the law should never be there. Jt is a scanrlnl, that is what it ii:;.

Hr ' 1YJ',I'J~-·- llut, I say now that this Government irrimediately, instead of roinr. of to Tennessee nr d1erever they are voinp. fO to rttaPa and do ~orrethinrr constructive for this Province. Fir.ht for the fisherr.en.

That is Ph:it is t-:ronr ,,1th this Pause, Sir. tncause th:i.s Governr:cnt on thP. other side 1:noPs nothinp. of vhat is happenin~ in Ottawa and the only hit of net·.'S ~•care rettinr is vrhat is corrinr: out of the Federal >.t.P's. ,\ml T. say tl1at, Sir, and I h;,.ve rreat pleasure , and the hon. rr:er..bcr 1 l·no•.' is faccJ '7ith tl1is thinr that is a crisis in his c!istricL 1 h;,ve verv rrent nleasure. Sir, in 1=;unnnrti.nr the re titian. rJe;i.Be Gorl ~OT'lPone on t!w otlicr s:f 0.e ~.;ill have p_uts enour:h to tell Ottm:a where they stancl, ns far as our fishemen arc concerned! ·~.

J.-c., cr0~r.1r: '.'r. sreah:•r, I t.Yould lU·e to support t'.1e prayer of the petlti.on riovc<l i,v thr :-'on. the ner:iber for nay Ge Verde. It is very necc:::snry that cf'nnrcs 1->e r1a<lc. Phat is not nr>cessary, Hr. fneakcr, is adv!s1n(' l,'l;)<l ·:e,·~our, 1lnn,l fis7ernen to rlisreizard the. lm-1 and challenr:e. the :~cr'.cral Covnri:r.ent in court .:md thP; '.'.ci·founcUand Government will su"':rinrt t'.,C'r nnd 0.11 t}>-; rest rif th,'1t bunla:ur,. 1narine the Leader of l!hat the Governrent should , 3 (J 0 ~ ""

Tnpc 71S (nnrnirr) "" 1'e rlnin; is prc-sun<linr the r:overnr::ent of 0tt;:run to cbanre the TP>'o1:itlons. If tlif' rrc,-ri,er nml the Govrrnrent h,::ive rot snch influe.ncPS Jll fltt;iP:, ns ti:r;, ]P.t on, as thry int1nntc in thi!; Fonsc day nfter dny ;f he is :lcart to heart :i.nd r1nrl to ninrl ,·i_th "r. Tru<lenu,surcly it Pould only require a sn;dl .,mount of influence or rressure to h:ive the salnon rer,ulations chanr;ecl. The Ln·.' docs not nee<l to be chanpcd hy the Pouse of C:ormons at f't to.Pa or Thr- thin,. to do is not to r.et up in this JJousc and r,11--e a rrnr.datand :11'.

S"J\LL' TV10: Defy tl1c lm-:. . - . - . - -"-. you. if you do.'' 1-.'hat J:in<l of an atti.tude is that of the rovernrent~ IT'.. S'.',\LJ},'(V'IJ): It is ;, rip ht: attitude. ----~------·· ·q~. CT'.(lf'.I;Tf:: Cnn Pe J"'O ahead now and defy any law tlrnt we do not npree in Nc,trfoundland he invited to defy nny lows they do not lite~rassed t-y the ::etJfoundlond GovernP'cnt? And there are certainly soP'e,passcd hy this Goverrrcnt, we do not J ikc. Fill FC J:-.e justified in r.oinr: out nnrl sayinr: ue nrc roinr-: t0 drfy t½cr? That is not the thinr.

Fhnt is necc1ed is the '·'in:!ster of rishcries and thf' i'rerd.cr to r.o to 0ttaViJ nnd see 11 r. Pavis and see. the Prir:c flinister, ,,•hen he ,:.ets hack ,or tl--e ,'\ctinp rrine. "i.nistcr n.nt:1, say; ''this c;innot be perritterl to cont:!r110. If you pcrr•-tr t 11is to continue you are ruininp the salron fis!·0ry ;ind the ~:1.Jrnn these c!:;irH'PS rnde. And, if you do not r:1Lc these ch.tnPcs, •·c nre rcdn~ to r.1.ke n stronr. public attn.cl<" ur,on you, t,.'hich vou uill not ~-•,mt. is the ,ray to r.et a ch,1ncr>, not to nsk our rnnr fisberr,,rn here 1n That

Tare 718 (rorninr-) r1: - 7 ·11:. (:1~n~·1n r · vorst st:,tf'l'tPnts I hnvc ever heard the Pret'11Pr mnke in the 1'0 cert~!nlv s11nport tl115 rctltion. ~•r. Srcnl:er. it i~ not the flshet"T"c-n of :·e,;frnm,!lnnd,1-ho catch snlron,thnt nre i!cpletinp, tl;e stod'.S of srilron. 1. 1 h1t is d0nlr>.tJnr, rrnlron stod:s, ,,,h?.t rm all know, i.s the c,,tc:hinp: of the salr'on 1 hy the Danes I of/ Greenland. They dj scovered whcr~ the s:tlTT'on ro durin;' the winter, or whatever the season is, before they cornf' b7ck to our shore;:: anrl the shores of t:et-!

Tinmsuick nnd the rC'~t of it tmd they nrc tal~inr, al] the salmon there, before our fisherren ret ;i elm.nee to catch them. So instr.:i., 1 of the Prenier IT'a1dnp his statenent, I would sooner he said that thr ''iPtster of Fishcrjes is roinr: today to Ottnva to see Pr. Davis .1nrl hi.co: officL1ls rmd he uill not he 1-,nck until v:c pet the rep,ulntions chnn<-f'rl. •;·Ji.it is tl:e kind of statenent I would li:-:e to hoar. !'IS: ~•r.

Chairr:::rn, I want to speak very stronply in SUflport of this petition~ 'Three 1-'ec?~i.., AP,O, I hrourh a SiF!:Uar petition from the fislwrr.eP of f;nrnish ,.1.hout rroi,lerio:; they were havinp over thcre 1 the salron ;,nd c;mnin..,. rPf'Ulati0ns ;mrl so on_ T asl:ed at t'rat ttrse,nnd tl•at was three Keeks npo, where is the contact, t1here is thf' liaison hetween the Provincial <::overnrrent and the Federal Cc,vcrnrc>rt :fn Pntters of this sort? Are tJ.e fishenrE>n of !'m-.•fotm~lanrl livinr-- in nuter :•onpolia?

If t 11e Prer.der of th1s Province wants nn;·t:linr he i~ on the rihonc :in ten seconcls fiat to nttn,:a. And a thin" of such irflnrt;irce :J$ this. tht"' first th-inf' ,,:e he;:ir ar'out is u protest corinP frrw1 ;t}1 over t!ie Isli1nd, n~ ,1 f;dt accorr,li. The fi.shcrr>Pfl nre hcin; derrived of a n-~nns of Mal'inr- t½eir l ive-1 iliood and the Government nrf' nm· only v•nl·in,;- un to tlH.:ri. no not tfir- rcderal nerartnent of Fisheries in ritt,11;;-i I--ett,rf'en thr,r? T!,Js 1s so stupid,:md then to have the Prm.,ier nf tliis l"'rnv-ince rct up ,m,;-l ttr,rP th'! f'ish('rr·en to Ccfy the 1av.

T nev,:,r hc,1.r<l

•·,,,• ''J, 1"71 Tap(' 71." (norninr.) th• J':Jff 0f .n)1 of this. TL,:,y Hou)d be the one~ Pho wrnlld suffrr. not the l'r('r·!('r. He Pon1d innh~ rn,-:1t po] ltica) iv1;' ;;.nd this is 1-•h;it he is cioinf nm:. rctttn{'/ the h.::,ckinr: nf the ftshrrren ~nnd let them suffer. This is s0 dnrn c:raz:,', the stup:idr,;t staterr>f'nt thnt ·vas ever r;idc in tl:is !ic,ns". I thtnk the Premier 011p:ht to be jo]ly Pell ash.fl.med of it. /'rnyhm•, '!r. ::=;waJ:.er. I support this petition nost heartedly and no:c;t str0nr]y.

T!-ic only t1'.inp abrnt it is, it is so lote, it should have he.en donf' so lonr nro, If the local Departrcnt of fished.es, the Provind.:il Depnrtrent of ris1wri.es anri the Premier vere on th£>ir toes this vou}d never h,1ve occurctl. f'.ow they arc trying to shove off th~ l1lame on Ottm•a. Tt is nur fishedrs.

The dchate \-!ldch we hod here on i1edr.;''sday, which the Prer'ler~ on h:is opf'n-.1ine prorrm:imc 1 said was the ;c.reatest ,,n:::;te of tir~r, possihlc, •.ias the best dcho.te we had i.n this nouse on the consrrv::ition of our fisheries. ::ow when a SC'Ps1ble discussion of t!lis sort takes place it is hrnndc.d as being senseless in aim anrl. foolish. t-ioH this is thf' t::pc of discus;,ion we t..rnnt in defense of our fishc~cP ,1nd not thi.s sort of foolis!mPs;, th;1t COTT'f'S across in this rouse. T have heard pC't:ltions from all over the country, Conlnp; in this r,ornin;> in my car.

T he.1rd one fron Bide Arm ,the same thinr.. The fish::IT'en are up in arms, and it is tirr.e the r.overnr.•ent woke up nnd in fact it is lonp: pass!'d tine. _!;;"__:TI!:!:~_:_ ~•r. ;:rwaker, I rine to surport the petit:f.on hut I hive never heard so nuch riCicu]ous h::11:, 1;ash talk in my J.ifc, as 1 ho.vc beard f ror, the nnposi t inn th 1 s rrnrninr:. Tfle Pref'.'li.er r-,we a very j nte.l lir.r 1 t. sunport,l1?cture jn s11prort of th:> hon. r.ernt>er's petition. ''r.

Speah:ar, I can ro n step further to s:1y this, the rer:uL1tions s:1y that if I hnvr fish1nr fCCJr thnr T put into th<: vater last vi::nr. and I r,P.,t zet f.isldnr: r:enr t 1~ts vear, T cnnnot put rtoth into the t:ntcr. I must see th,1.t T have to rl1f;c;ird thP n1d fishinr rr0ar, pot in the nc1•· or pork the old nrHi not

Tape 71R (norninr:) Pl'. - 9 :•n. F\rr,P!lP: The salmon fishery is now started; the salr:1on nrc on the run. 1'he flsl1cr~cn t1nvc to make a livinP. If so"cthjnr is not done ,Lt is roinr to he too l.:1tf' t'ecause not every day is n salnon fishing day~ hecau,;,e of th0 adverse worl:Jnr, conditions. I think that we should do sorethinv ;;l,out it. I knov for a fnct that certain hon. rrer:iters on this side of thr- Pause have tried to do something about it. Fhen 1 t.tas in Ponavista ~outh.,n couple of Saturday nil!hts aro, I spoke to the fishemen and this cnrw on the carpet.

I assured them that when J i.:ent back to St. John 1 s J ,•otild do the hcst 1' couid,nnd J have done that. I have done that.

So ;ic; fnr ilS I af'1 concerned, we should folloP it up, before th,:, season c:rn1aes to an end, and at least i?1ve the fishemen a chance to r:et their fishin? p_C'nr into the watQr nnd catch their salnon. ~;o I have r.mcl-; pleasure in supporting the hon. ncmr>cr' s petition so ahlv pre~ented hy hjr1. ~'£~•-: 1 :"Y£!1Al.L: I 1,ou1d support 1 ohviously,as well, this retition 'hourht by the rerhcr, hut I t:ould also note that thfs sui.tation h::ts been Vnm,Tl for qu1tc some neriod of tire, and I wonrler ,,.hy somethinp has not 'been don•?. ,1-out it hcfore. 7~wr0: is n Jnd· of co-on1inriti0n,obviousl::,hct,:cer ~ r, Province and Ottm-•01.

I would 11.l"c to l:nov Phat rreasures h;;.d heen tal'.cn before and d:ut direction i.s ro:inr: to be tnl:en nm,~. Rather than just histrionic\ sho1,m in this J'ouse of .\sscmhly, what positive steps are roinr- to re tnl:en to :,rotect the fi.sherr:cnJ "01· thi.s shou1ci nrvcr '.-ave nr:isen in t:lc first nlncr.. This situ;ition. this type of rerulnti0n that affects the livlil-;ood of ;:;o ,,,mv peorilt> shouli 1 nc>vcr. never ::.rise .,~;iin.

The Covcrnrent shou}c 1 ace th;,t it •.dll not ;irisP. /1.lso the whole situation .s 10 ou}f' not !·c in (]i1c~tion. ,,..;~e 1:tin. r,er,bP.rs on this slrlr; h:tVP, rointP.rl out .1. rc,1s.on for any c:0nsPn.•~t40n rraFur,:;s ;;nd strict c0n'.~Ct'V/etir0 i-0t 1m! 1c; t1..,.1t 1-;ive '."0cn r'nw-½t ir }-•; t¼c f'r~··0rnrn-rt nf

Tane 718 (r-orninr•) PY: - 10 im f'/1J'Enl'F, ntti'F.-', 1 1-,nve f'er,n hecau:ie of depletion of the s<11non stocks -~ ~~ ' - ~ - ~----- re,11i.zcs the nf'solutf' necnssity of ta1'.inr; steps, takinp: stron.rr steps to 0ttm·;:1,1.•ith respect to conserv:-ition.

I do not believe it dnes hecnuse, after n.11,a f;overnrr-ent v:hic:h r,"'fuses and is afraid in effect to npnroach thP: Covermnent of our i'?ation and merely to ask that it take stronp steps in order to arran_0'.e for conserv;:i.tion not only of the snlMon stocks but every fi.si 0 in!! stock that we have 1 our basic natural resources, the r.ovcrnrwnt that obviously turns <lown a request to have this i'.ouse of Asscn+lv put its seal of approval on such an npproach, ;md n Leader of the Governnrmt uho c:a\ls .... such an attel"lpt "a 1,:CT-ste of ti-re,· surely cannot "be too conccrne<1 ;iJ·out conservation or, 1. f it is concerned ,certA.inJ.y does not ]mm,. '\o."hat to do about it.

"P._,S. 1 '!:Ari:r-- This vholc debate, which is a debate, has been irrer:u]ar, to say the least~ t'nder the guise of sur-portinr: a petition, ve have entere>d into a p:eneral debate on a particular suhject,wh::i.ch Pas introduce.cl by n petition to the !louse. To dehate the matter is not rerular.

It is remitted to suPr-ort a netition hut to hnve a r,ener.n.1 deh.:1te on 1. particuli1r suhject,t,..•ith no notice of Motion rtven, and a r-cneral debate in this m;mner should not he held this way~ If the Pouse is satisfied, I hnve no o!",Jection to the hon. renber riving nn explanation of ;-1ny roints he wishes to do, but he has to have le,we of the Fouse to do t7is.

Yotion arreed. don~ t'efore? i'c.11, if He ,dll lool· bncLno one harl 'been notified tf'ctt th:is thinr ~-·as roin,r; to hr111r,c>n, not hy -press, rn,Ho·or ;my re1Pascs. so this is tht~ thinr thi1t has ca11scd all thi;:; trouhle. 'P1c fishrrren nor wr ourselves hnve not hcl?:n notified thnt t'.7is v;1s ;oinr'. to hnppon. •"rw if you i.307

Tape 718 (rrmrninr:) just roinr: to hrinr in a rPr:ulat::Ion and next year nnyone t-.·ho was not a sablon fi;:;hemen t:ould not ret a licence. ~1r. Bpeaker, there iB the cxp]:wation. They dirl not l~now. ''r. I Pould 11.ke to suprort the prayer of this Pl:~ 11 petition, hccause T tldnk r:iy di:stri.ct is as r;reatly effected as any other distrjct i.n this Province. In fact it affects ;lll the fishcrr;cn of this Provir:ce. This is a recurrinr: problem.

There are six hoc1ts in my district which are un;1h1e to eet a licence to :Jrosecute this salmon ,f1slwry. nne of the pPrson1 d-w m,7"\";one of the 1~oats, Georpe l:.olles from f;urrco, has appealed the decision 1dth the Federal Governnent and F.:1S turried CTm:-n on the nrincip]e th.nt he had Pever had ;i 1 icencc. T''lis ,0.cntlN 1 rm lrnd a shorr li.cenc.P for fifteen years, he 1,•as one ycnr in his bont,'tlriftinr; Tt:e foll0,•inr yenr he vas sick ,m,1 dirl not rct n licence~ The next year he lic.enced his boat under another s1'.inpcr an<l the hont VilS lost.

Since thnt tine he hns· been unnblc to pct a 1 icenc~. Fe has defied the rules-. he hns fished am heen ordered to ston. Fe ts still rivs<'l f, to the hon. J,1c1-". T\wis, and I feel sure nany others have done the be tlore to relieve th1s siturttion. Pfl!l. "r. Spenker, i.n sunnortlnP:: the r>rti tion. I i'!t1st snv, Sir, nt the outset 1 t;-'nt it is not fair to he T st:itcd t~·js in tr':is Fouse

May 21, 1971 (morning) Tape !lo, 719 NC - l HON. E. WINSOR: before, that we made strong protest to the hon~ Jack Dnvis,objecting strenuously to the regulation that they proposed bringing in rcr,arding the salmon. We all realized~ There is not one member in this hon~ House 1 if he is connected Yi.th a fishing district 1 that did not know what this would menn to the fishermen of his district.

Sir, there have been so many different complaints from the fishermen and, on every occasion, I, myself, have been on the telephone with Mr~ Davis' office~ trying to use what little persuasive power 1 have,as Acting-Minister of Fisheries ,to change the regulation~ I also requested him to send an official from his Department down here so that we could slt down and he could get around among the Fishermen I s Union and the fishermen and find out for themselves. This the7promised to do and noi..hing happened.

Nov it is difficult for us to go to Ottawa and force the Federal Government into nnything,if they do not want to listen to us,but as far aL I can gather the Federal Government is bent! on bringing in conservation measures. On one hand we are crying out for the Federal Government to br~ng connervation measures into the inshore fishery and,on the other hand.we ~re telling them not tr, do it in the salmon fishery* So you cannot have your cake nnd eat it too.

But realizing that, I strongly object 1 and Mr~ Davis is aware of this, that the regulation should not be enforced in one year~ It should be done,if it has to be done,over a period of years,to give the fishermen who are engaged in the salmon fishery - Mr. Speaker, in some areas of this Province , and I am thinking especially of Labrador} the salmon fishery ls the only source of fishermen making any money at all,to support ther.~elves and thelr family.

If they are not permitted to salmon fish they have to go ashore and the Government will have to feed them •• All this we brought to the attention of the Federal Department of Fisheries and without going and putting the gun to their heads, I do not knov vhat else we can do. But Sir, I strongly support the petition of the hon. memher for Bay de Verde and if there is anything else we can do, I can nssure you, ~1r. Spenker, that we will leave no stone unturned because we all rc:ilizP what a hardship this is going to mean to our fishermen. 430S

May 21, 1971 (Morning) Tape No, 719 NC - 2 On motion petition received. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. C.!!,O]_BIE: On Orders of the Day, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the Premier - does the Premier realize at Moscow there were not to be any specific discussions with Russian fishery officials during the Prime Minister's visit;' It was reported by Mr. Davis yesterday that there would not be any specific discussions with Russian fishery officials during the Prime Ministerts visit.

Mr~ Davis said the Prime Minister had been fully briefed on the Canadian problcms,on both the east and west coast but particularly regarding the North Atlantic,but there would not be any specific discussions with Russian fishery officials during the Prime Minister's visit. If the Premier was aware of it; why did he mislead the House in the deLate on Wednesday? MR. SPEAKER: That question also should not be prefaced by reading articles f1~m newspapers or magazines. ~ ._ §MALLWQOD (J. R.): Hr. Speaker. ~.,p was so completely and hopelessly out of order.

However, I never sAid that the Prime Minister of Canada in Moscow was going to talk to fishery officials~ never gave any hint of it, never suggested it and did not think he was going to~ I knew that the Head of the Government of Canada was going to talk to the Head of the Government of the Soviet Union,not fishery officials. MR. CROSBIE: The Prime Minister is not discussing specifically 1 in Moscow 1 on his visit, fishery problems whatsoever. MR. SMALLWOOD: I do not know any such thing. He did not discuss it with fishery officials in Moscow. He discussed it with the Government of the Soviet Union. MR.

CROSBIE: Not according to Mr~ Davis. On Orders of the Day, Mr. Chairman, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries. i.'ould there be any harm in this House today passing a resolution and wiring the results of the resolution to Ottawa 'i310

May 21, 1971 (Horning) Tape No. 719 NC - 3 MR. CROSBIE: in connection with the problems of the salmon fishery? That is the question. !:!_R. MAR~HALL: I would like today, Mr~ Speaker, to question the hon. Minister of Health. It is reported that there are problems over in the Port aux Basques area with respect to the hospital facilities there and certain doctors are going to resign as a result of same - MR~ ROBERTS: I will have a statement on it when we go into Committee, if we ever get into Committee. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chntr.

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY: MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, on page 40, subhead 1011, and we were debating 04-01 when the Committee arose last evening, the vote for the University School of Medicine: Before we go on with 1011, may I make a brief statement of - MR. CROSBIE: If the Minister wants to make a statement on the Port aux Basques situation, I would prefer he wait where we can discuss it under District Medical Care. MR. ROBERTS: Well,in view of the fact that the report was irresponsible, inaccurate, unfounded and incorrect, perhaps I - MR. CROSBIE: Well District Medical Care is the next item. MR.

ROBERTS: Oh all ri~ht thenjif we pass this, but I had the impression that w-e were going to have more talk on that. ~ CROSBIE: Well if the Minister prefers doing it. MR. ROBERTS: Well I do want to do it before lunch,because the statement was completely inaccurate 1 as it was reported on the CBC last night~ MR. CR05ll1E: All right,go ahead. MR. B.Q.~_R}S: Very briefly, Mr.

Chairnan, we can debate it or discuss it then·, of course I have copies, there are three, enough for the hon~ gentlemen~ Last night on the enc, and I am told it was repeated this morninr, on their morning newscast, it W'as said that the four doctors on the £311

May 21, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 719 NC - 4 ?-ffi. ROTIF:RTS: staff of the Channel Cottage Hospital hnd resigned. I found this very hard to understand and I did some checking this morning and as I knew already the Senior Medical Officer 9 Dr. John Ross 1 resigned He submitted his resignation several months ago 1 to take effect;, I believe the end of July. The true, situation is this 1 and really Mr. Chairman, the CBC; to my knowledge,ni8de no effort to check this. They did not say there is a report to this effect.

They merely made a statemenL The situation ls this - presently on the staff of the Channel Cottage Hospital are Dr. John Ross, the Senior Medical Officer, Dr. J. C. Rny, Dr~ teveson Roberts ( who is no relation of mine) and Dr. David Sansome. Dr. John Ross~ the Senior Medical Officer, informed us some months ago that he would be resigning. He is being replaced by Dr. Seushill Mallick, who is a r,raduate of Glasgow University. He also holds, Dr. Mallick this is, th~ diploma of the Royal College of Obstetrics and Gynecology of London. Dr. Mallick's references were Professor R. F.

Slater, Surgeon and Chief of tPe H...:~pital for Sick Children in Toronto, and Professor H. t-L Baine, a Profissor and Head of the Department of Pediatrics in Toronto~ From 1950-1956,Dr. Mallick worked in various hospitals in Great Britain, from 1956-1970 he worked as a Medical Officer with the Department of National Health and Welfare, beirg in charge of the hospitals at Norway House, Manitoba, later was Zone Medical Director at Sioux Lookout, Ontario, where there is a seventy-five bed hospital. During the past year Dr. Mallick ~as doing a refresher course in general surgery at Dalhousie University in Halifax.

The Assistant Medical Officer at Channel, Dr~ Ray, is remaining in our service. Ile is hir,hly qualified nnd he has requested a transfer elsewhere in the service and that,of course 1 is going to be done. MR. CROSBIE': He has asked for a transfer. MR. ROBERTS: And we have ngreed to move him •• Dr. David Sansorne, also an Assistant v •. ·dicnl Officer, l.asrNovember asked to be moved to Gander and again we have heen able to comply with his request there. ':.312

May 21, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 719 NC - 5 MR. ROBERTS: Dr. Leveson Roberts has applied for a position elsewhere. I have the feeling, on the advice I am given by my officials? that Dr* Roberts will be leaving our Service in July, although we have no formal notice of it. Dr. Roberts is a Newfoundlander 1 who is a very fine doctor indeed, but I think he has a bit of the wanderlust. He has been, to my knowledge, in Bay d 1Espofr, Buchans and Channel,within the past year or so~ The two junior positions in the hospital will be filled by Newfoundlanders who have just graduated from medical s'chool.

One of them is Dr~ John Rahl., The other appointment we have not settled but there are a number of doctors in positions and we will be moving one of them in. I may add as well, that Dr .. McSea.rraigh, I think that is his name, the gentleman who has been up in the Codroy Valley for many years 1 is now retiring because of illness. We have appointed a new doctor for that practice, Dr~ Leigh Clarke,who is presently at Brookfield. He has been th~re for two year.

He now wants to try his hand at District Medical Practice~ The other point I make is that it is quite true to say that there was once a doctor at Rose Blanche but since Rose Blanche is twenty-eight miles from Port aux Basques and there is now a good road between the two communities, there is no longer a doctor there, people look to the hospital.

Now 1 realize it is a little unusual to make a statement like Your Honour, but 1 in view of the fact that this report did receive wide publicity and in view of the fact that it is such an important matter and in view of the fact that the report was just not correct, I am grateful the Committee has given me the opportunity~ If we want to discuss it, I would be happy to, under District Medical, strickly speaking it should come under the Cottage Hospital Vote,which is a little further down the shelf~ I do have some copies)if the hon~ gentlemen would like them. MR.

J:!..~RSHALL: The whole situa tio.n 1 of the resignation of the doctors itself is concerning~ but renlly the main concern to us would be the expressed reasons for their resignation. Now whether those actually are the re.asons ,, 31" ,,. .:,

Hay 21, 1971 (Morning) Tape No, 719 NC - 6 MR._MARSH~LL: or not is material but not as urgent~ But the urgent matter is really the statement that I heard reported to the effect that the doctors, these four doctors, had apparently voiced the opinion that the facilities, the medical facilities in this area;were inadequate for the population of some twelve to fifteen thousand people and as such this is one of the reasons why they were tendering their resignations~ Now that is a matter I ~ould like the Minister to comment onJ because he will agree that it is a very, very serious matter; not so much the fact that the four doctors resigned from the hospital, which is serious in itself, hut if they resigned, with their medical knowledge, saying that the facilities in this area are not adequate, then it is a very, very serious matter.

M1l, ROEERTS: Mr. Chairman, I can only say that, to my knowledge.the only one who has resigned is Dr~ Ross. I have a long letter, or one of my officials does, from Dr. Ross. why he resigned, I can assure the hon. gentleman that inadequacies of the facilities were no•; the reason why Dr. Ross is resigning~ Dr. Ross is leaving Channel 1 I think : t is fair to say, a very unhappy man~ His cornplaint,as I understand it, is not with us. He is not entirely happy with everything we have done 1 of course. His complaint is not with us~ It is not with the physical facilities.

I do not want to go further~ The other threcJto my knowledge,have not resigned. Mr. Chairman, I really do not want to comment upon a hearsay report~ I have heard the same report but it is quoting somebody. I am meeting a delegation from Channel this afternoon, a meeting which was arranged some months ago or some weeks ago$! believe Your Honour would be aware of it, see what comes up then But I can also say that)to my knowledge,the medical facilities at Channel, Port aux Basques are comparable to those in any comparable area of the Province. They really are. The hon. member for St.

John's West wanted a question 1Your Honoura He asked the number of Newfoundlanders in the medical school and was told as follows: the present first year class -has thirty-two students and twenty- 'i 314

May 21, 1971 (Morning) Tape No, 719 NC - 7 !1R. ROBERTS: six of those are Newfoundlanders by birth, three are from other parts of Canada, two are from the United States, and one is from another Country, I do not know the Country* In second year there are twenty-four students of whom fourteen only are from Newfoundland but,as the Committee will see 1the ratio is rising very_ very quickly~ Twenty-six out of thirty-two in one case, fourteen out of twenty-four in the other6 Of the present second year class, twenty-one are Canadians, fourteen of them are from the Province of Newfoundland. MR.

MARSHALL: With regard to 04-01 there is one other pointi to which I referred last night,that I would like to bring up to make some clarification on the medical school. rt relates to an answer to a question that was asked with respect to the control of the medical school itself. Now first of all, before I get into the answer on that, may I just outline briefly the reason for this enquiry.

As we know,the Brain Commission Report strongly recommended,initially,in its first volume that the University Hospital should be managed by a governing body appointed fy t'1e Minister, that is the Minister of Health, after consultation with appropriate authorities nnd bodies and that the financing of the Hospital should be the responsibility of the Minister. But it is the control to which I want to direct our attention right now.

Subsequently the Dean of Medicine, Dr, Ian Rusted, and other members of the faculty at Memorial,",1ho were presenting a brief to Lord Brain,on the Commission, actually travelled to England about this recommendation, as a result of which volume two was written. In volume two, Lord Brain changed his position completely, as a result of the representations that were received from Dr. Ian Rusted and Memorial University,about control. Because control of the University hospital, as control of any University facility, is a matter of great concern to anybOdy in the University community and this is what they wanted.

After reyiewing this recommendation as well as re- viewing the report of the Mcfarlane Committee, the recommendation was changed 1 In vrlume two ,to state that the University hospital would be under the direct control of the University,which shall be responsible for .ull matter<J of 4315

Mny 21, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 719 NC - 8 MR. ROBERTS: policy and expenditure. !hen this was the main reason or the main content of volume two. It was thought, by the medical faculty nnd people at Mcmorial,~f sufficient import to actually go to London and bring this up with Lord Brain. I asked the hon~ Minister a question as to who would have control of this Hospital and we nre told that it is going to be a University Hospital and General Hospital.

Obviously it has to be the Government that has control and he assured me that the Government would have the overall control, with people from ·.the University on as well as the Govemment 1 and that this had been okayed by the Board of Regents.

Now.although we do not enquire into University affairs, beyond the Roard of RegP.:nts, I appreciate the fact, I questioned whether or not the faculty of medicine is completely and absolutely satisfied with this because, if :lt is not, well it is important, It was important enough for Lord Brain to Mritc volume two and if there is going to be any dissatisfaction 1we could find ourselves, certainly,in the situation,in the one case,of their being discontent in this medical school, because this is a very important te~ic to these people, these Universf~v types. We could (

a) either find ourselves with a huge plant in which there is discontent and (

b) ultimately it could so happen that we would have to have then a University Hospital and maintain the General Hospital as another source or avenue. So~apart from the fact, I realize what the Minister has said,that the Board of Regents has agreed but I think that,in view of the strong stand taken by the Faculty of Medicine.with respect to Lord Brain's Report,which motivated the writing of volume two of the report and a complete switch in change of his position, Lord Brain's position.

In view of the tradition of the University,people who ~ant independence in their own affairs, I think that,in addition to the Board of Regents,! would like the Minister to be able to assure that this policy of the Hospital being under the ultimate control of the Government, regardless of what representatives are on it from the University, sits well with the Faculty of !'ledicine and that we. are not going to get in any difficulty~ I would like him to reply to that and if he has not checked directly, if he 431G

Mny 21, 1971 (Horning) Tape No, 719 NC - 9 MR. MARSHALL: could check and inform the House afterwards. -~------ }TTL ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I can say this about that~ I guess the hon~ r,cntlemnn says correctly that I cannot enquire beyond the ReszentR,that they arc the body who have be.en entrusted with the University I hnve a resolution of the Regents accepting our plan that the General Hospital, which vmuld also be a teaching facility so that it would be under control of the Board of the present General Hospital on which the University is represented.

I have not told the Medical Faculty anything., but I think the hon. gentleman hns a point~ I can say that in my private and informal and relatively formal communications with both Dr. Rusted nnd Dr. Ken Roberts (again no relation), who is the Associate Dean of the Medical School, each of them understands why the Government takes the position we do take I think I am quite safe :tn saying that neither of these two men have indicated to me nnythine other than complete acceptance.

I have not-you know, some of the other persons 1 may run into on a social occassion or otherwise 11 'fhe only other thing I can add is that we have a four-man committee 1 which supervises the detailed work on the project and my own Deputy Minister and 'the Deputy Minister of Public Works nre members of that, Mr. Ralph Moore, the Administrator of the General, who is a very strong and knowledgeable personality in hospital mattcrs,:ts a member and Dr. Ian Rusted is the fourth member, representing the Universj_ty. So I think that shows that the Dean,presunably he is okay with the feellng of his faculty.

The other point I would make is that almost all of the hospitals Jn St. John's now,Your Honour, are closely linked to the Nedical School 1 in any event. We snw in the papers the other day an announcement,jointly 1 by Dr. Gary Brmmrigr,, acting as Chief of Stoff for St4 Clare's and Dr. Rusted as Denn of the 'Medical School,in which a further integration of the Medical School with St. Clare's, the Roman Catholic Hospital 1 is now agreed~ I think this is the pattern.probably every Chief of Staff,- the present General is chief of a Department at the University Medical School.

I knov that Janeway is closely integrated. I am not so sure about - well most of St. Clare's, most of the Grace and I know we are working out an ar,reemcnt for the ~!ental ilospi tnl I with reference to the teaching of L. 3 .i 7

, Hny 21, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 719 NC - 10 HR. ROBERTS: most of St. Clare's, most of the Grace and I know we are working out an agreement for the Mental Hospital with reference to the teaching of psyciatric medicine. So you know, this is going to be a problem in years to come. I do not want to go into it now but de facto we could be on the verge of a full blown problem here in St~ John 1 s of because,more nncl more general practic.ioners, Your Honour, when my father started practicing medicine thirty years ago he had P,riviledges at each of the three hospitals, St.

Clare's, the Grace and the General, most doctors did, Now,more and more, it is becoming the practice that doctors have pdviledres nt only one hospital and I think the time will come when many doc.tors or some doctors in St. John's will not have hospital priviledges at all. This is what seems to be coming on the Mainland and I can see the prospects of it here. But all I can say,in reply to the hon. gentleman's point.is th.:_.t to the best of my knowledge,and I have not told every member of the factu~ty but I keep in close touch with Dr. Rusted. I had dinner with Dr. Robertr t·-•o or three weeks ago.

We spent an evening together at his home. My understanding is that they are in agreement with our approach, their anxiety is to get the facilities underway and the Government shares that anxiety in very full measure. MR. CROSBIE: Now doubtless the Minister knows this but it is certainly a fact that the Medical Faculty .at Memorial University is gradually acquiring control of the Hospital.

I will say that the Faculty at 'Memorial University School of Medicine controls the Janeway, controls the General Hospital, how much it controls St~ Clare's and the Grace I do not know~ The new Hospital the 'Minister is discussing, this General Hospital which will be used as a University Hospital will be even more closely under their control. Now it will either be the present Minister or some other Minister in the future. in the next two or three years, is going to have a showdavm with those gentlemen because, in my view, what happens in the hospital services of St.

John's should be decided by general considerations of public health r) 1' ,, ,, ... , 0

Hay 21, 1971 (Morning) Tape !lo. 719 NC - 11 MR ._RQ!l.fJlTS: and Government policy not by what a group on the Faculty at Memorial Medical School may 'Want t:o see happen to them .. That is the great clanger with this General Hospital being also a University Hospital. It is r,oing to be administered by Memorial 1rniversity School of Medicine, naturally to suit their requirements for teaching medicine nnd research,

whereas what we will need is more beds for the care of the people who are sick and members of the general public. There is going to be a difference in the interests of those who are administering the Medical School and in the interest of the p,eneral health services of this Province, not just in the Hospital that is going to he built and called the University Medical Hospital, the new General, but in these other hospitals as well.

I think that that is something that is going to be watched very, very carefully~ As the Minister knows, the Medical Faculty is now the site of policy at the Janeway and I would say che same is true of the General and it may become true of the others, for reasons that the Minister well knows. But at some point there is going to be different interests between those who want to run these h,,spitals to benefit the Medical Scl,0nl and the Government which should run them to benefit the general health o( the people of Newfoundland .and that time is fast approaching and will be on us within the next two or three years.

~ay 21st, 1971 Tape 720(Mnrning) ?o-~_:.___f:._A_R_L}i= !"fr. C.:hairnnn, nn (02) just a short question: Will the Mini~ter inform the House ~hnt the subvention amounts to in the cases of doctors an<l dentists and hns there been any chan~e in recent yeRrs and is there sti]l n requireMcnt thnt these Pentlemen serve part of their time Pfterwards in Newfoundland? MR. P,()TIP.RTS: ---- -·-·-, -- The subvention, Your Honour, is $2,500~ a year for students t!Oinr to f;Chnol outside their homes i"'nd $1~050. a year in their mm home, in othr,r words ;in effect,if a student frore the St.

John 1 s nrea is ~oinr to !-'cmorial. It waf. incrertsed, I f'clieve, about three yenr.s nPn\from $2~non. to $2,500.

There is ;i remdrcMent that for every V<'?r ue PS!:dst ri student he nwcs us a year in Newfoundlancl. lfalf thf' time Must bC' spent at riv discreti0n,which TT'~nris e-Ffectively the rottnrc Hnspitnl District "fe<lic:al Practices, nnd the other half the tin,e is jn :"-1cwfounrlJ.=rnfJ,at h:is optior~ I rnipht add that last year we had three younf! gentlerre.n anil a youm; lady who canceller1 out ,;md leF!ally we have no nC'lt-rer to rJo anythiPp a.bout it but I think the l"lcclical proft>ssjon 1at all levels in this Province 1let these younr>:cr peon le 'knnq· that th!'y took a very, vcrv <lir-i view indeed of this fnilurc on their part to honour n wornl comP1ittment, and I think SO!",C corrective ;,ction "-TaS tnkrn.

As far as I know ,the nineteen students we expect to r-rndtmte this venr ~under our prortraf"'Ine ,.nll intend to hono11r their oblip-rttion to us. there not? Then:• is nn ar;reerrient signed hy thPsC' stm:!Pnts wtth the r,overnmpnt. Nnw vou c:mnnt force the!'l, you cannot 1?et an in1unction anrl force them~ MR. PJlRL"'RTS: T .1m not ,;-,oinp: to lecture the hon. gc.ntlenan on lf!W hecause he 1:nows ner?rlv as tT1t1ch as I do. ~- r:rnsntr: I .:!.F.I. not finished 0n th~ imhiect vet.

May 21st, 1971 Tape 720(Horninr,) with an in1unction. sentence. Ve al] Vn0w, anybody who is a lawyer here knows that you cannot ret an iniunctton to force a man to wor~ for the Governrent- but actions can he taken against them for damages. MR. RORPBTS: Can I deal with that? ·----~-- MR. CROSflTE: Never Mind the TV now. MR. CROSRTE: Yes.

Actions have been taken against people,who sivn ~-----,,--·--- these avreer;ents and left Newfoundland and breached,them for damages. ~-:...J:~.0J~F:-~T2: L,1.st year~ Your Honour, we did collect frorri one younr, Jady who got married.She paid back her entire indebtedness,with interest, SR.onn. ,\nether vounr: doctor,with interest ,at ten per-cent,paid his iudebteclnf:'SS over a period of twelve months. T:wo other doctors worked in Cottnp.e Hospitals for months and months and then ,finally ,that was not sntisfnctorv to the~ so they e.re payin~ us back their in<lchtedness top,ethc,r with ten per-cent interest.

But that is all we can do. We cannot ret an in,iunction, lfot we hit them hard and we told them we would sue them unless they repaid the Money and they apreed to repay the money. ~m. !:_~O<i_!!,,~: t~ow this is payable at Memorial too, is it not? NR~ CURTIS: t'ould it not be better if we cut out these subventions ___ , _____ _ nltoPether and rnat'"e these loans?

If a doctor can corie in private practice ancl v.et SJ.42,0110. a year 1 he should be able to pay back his loan and it should be ,1 loan and not a st1bvention~ f!R_.: __ _P:_0tr .. ~T.2_: Yes, hut T do not nropose to deh;,te policv with ny collenrue in the rahinet. MR. F0RFRTS ! Yes~ thrre :ire -

Mav 21st, 1971 }fR. f:HA1RMAN: - - ~ ~ -" HR. CR0SRTE: - • - • ❖ - ❖ HR. ROBFRTS: Taµe 720(~orning) Shn11 the item cnrry? No. not until, give the Minister a chnnce to answer me. Pell. do vou want to know how many there are at Ner10rinl? I have it here !iOT'lr>where. Twentv-six students at Memorial are now receiving assistance under this4 :tt!1':_· ... r~9..:c:.1·-\1E • 1 mP.an I i f you are adni tted at Memorial, there is no probler petting these loans. You just enter into an arree~ent at the Department of Henlth/ MR. ROP.r.:RTS: Yes, sure. JH - J HR.

CROSBIE: As Jong as you :ire accepted at the medical school,you can po to the flcpnrtrrient of P.en}th and you have no trouble fina.ncinr your way'? MR. MARSHALL: With resoect t:n all the subventions that have been rrnif 1 -·~- ----~---- to pconle who are now gradttated. hr>ve these people either served their term or else in a few minor~they all have either n,ade cnsh settle:rents or are making nayments rep~yinr it? HJ<. ROBERTS: The answer, Sir, is yes. There was one rentlernan in 0 -- --• _,_ --- - Kitchner, Ontario, nawed r.eorrP J. ChristJvhom we actually had to tn.ke an action against.

It was settled out of court,on the advice of our solicitors, ancl we rot n verv rood settlctrent, ,lt rm.de an un11suaJ cnsc, the Attorney GPneral vs. J. Christ. It was an unusual referencc,you l:now. On motion, iten carri~d. 1012(01) - District '-'edical C,,re: NR. r.ROSIHF,: On this item, tfr. Chairman. I 't.mulcl like to Oiscuss t 11e situ:1tion at Port au::: flasoues or to pet n bit more infom;ition on it.

The reoort that I hevrd on the radio, that and that report that the Minister made here were not all that much different. \.'hat I heard on the radio newscnst was that there were four doctors in the Port a1L"!: Basnucs-Chnnnel Hosoital and thnt all of the.rn had either resirned or would he resi~nin~ and leavint hv July. ~Iott whnt the i,.322

Mny 21st, 1°71 Taoe 720(?-'orning) "R. CPOSRTE: --·-> ,-- -~~-~ Minister fHtvs :1.r: that nr. Foss had resi~ncd anrl is leavinr in July, that Dr. Sansone wants to ~ove to Garnier anrl will be leavin? in July, thvt Dr. Roherts wrmts a transfer And will be leaving in July and that nr. Rav, T think he saJ.d Dr. Rny ,is reniaininr_ but that Dr. Ray has nsked for a transfer. So you hnve four doctors now, Mr. Chairman, at the Channel-Port aux flnsnues J!ospitnl. Dr.

Ross,who is a very, very fine doctor and d:!rl terrific service nt Placentia, I do not know for how nany years but ccrtninly six or ei~ht vears, one of our finest ~enernl practitioners. The Minister says he hns resir,ned all to!!ethr.r but the Hinister has not snid whether he is leavinf the Province ~nd I would like hirr, to. MR. R(ll'ERTS: 1-le is. He is imin1? back to University. !f.!._..f.RS)SB_!J~: Well, I hope he is going to come back to Newfoundland eventually,if he is returninr, to University. So that the report is ".;1 substance correct, Mr.

Chnirnan, that you have four doctors there '10W and hy July all of those four zr,e either going to he resipned from the Ne'Wfoun<llanP service 1 as Dr. Ross.or transferred. ~ow surely this ~ust indicate that all is not well in the cottage hosnit~l at Channel- Port au::,,: Basoues. You 1-,tould not have four doctors all at the same tine resirninr or askin~ for transfers if everythinp. was satisfactory at the Ch:mnel-Port atrx Bas(lucs Hospital.

Now wlwn T was Pinister and that was three years ago.I was down to Ch;mne]-Port attx Bn.soues m,d they we.re vastly overcrowded, their outpatiEmts facilities were very li'mited and obviously sof'lethinr needed tn be don£> there, ;md I wnult 1. have done my best to see that sor:ethinr­ was donr there ;md I think th;;t rroney was spent there but the Minister can tell us wh;'"!.t wns <lone after that. I know the>t thC'rP have been renov,'".ltions c:1rri.ed nut down there since then but,obvinuslv ,all of those doctors t-1011ld not be nsldnr- for transfc>rs to other hosoitnls or t,;;323 JM ~ 4

M:w 2l~t, 1Q71 Tare 12n(~orninr) MR. CROSRIE: ~ -- ~ -., -- ~ lrnvi.nf' the service if ev£>rythinp: wns all rir;ht at Channel-Port aux f\nsqoes. Now the hospital is bnsicn1ly, its facilities are too linited fnr the 1 nrr,e m1IT1ber of peop1 c they have to look n fter, That is one thin 1:. As I ref"enber it,the hospitnl wa.s all rirht, the operating rooms were ~11 ri~ht for just an ordinarv operntion hut if anythin~ cowplicated came up,-as I n:•nenber it, Mr.

Chairrmn, they could carry out sirriple orierations at Port mm Bnsriues but their operating room was not larpe enouph and dicl nnt hnve- the proper fndlities to don.ore th;m that. Therefore 1 if a patient h;id to have n rliffic.ult operation or let us say there was sonethino; wrcino- vith ,1 childhirth,then the patient hne! to be t,q'ken fron Port nmc R':'lsouf'S nnrl rlrivcn un to Stephenville or Corner Brno'!<- to bf' operntPd on.

Nmt this was cc1usinf! a lot of worry in the area and I know that the>re hns 'been tremendous ,t1fssatisfaction in the Chnnnel-Port aux BasquC's area,with their medical u.nd hospital facilities there. ~o 1 woul<l lih~ the Minister to outline for the l!ouse what 'Wor\.r h.os hec-n carried out at the Port aux Rasques hospital durinr> the ln!'>t two or three ycors and uhnt the facilities now are there and whether or not the Den:1rtmrmt has any plans to make further iT:'nrovemcnts down thPrc?

Eecause after all,if the Government hns the noney now to huild a hospital at Carhonear, a new one,and one at 'Port aur. lkrnoues. Ttti 11 tnrate nnd T,festern Memorial, obviously the r1oney can be foun<l for Port aux Pa5nues,if it is needed~ So could the Minister tell us what has been done there to i~orove facilities,for the last several yenrs 1 and rive us some more inforrriation on it? }f:R. ROBERTS: Mr. ChAir1:1an -_____ * _____ _ a J?rant of four million soriP odd.,and this is District }fedical.

Does the Committee want to rlo nistrict Medical Care and Cottar.:e Posr<i trtls now or do vou ~vant to do District ?>fc<lical Care and uait for Cottar-e 11o!:ipitu1s

Hny 21st. 1'°71 Tape 720(Morninr) MR. CIJAIRFA'l ! to come up? MR .. CROSBIE:_" I _iust want to discuss it now because it was already discussecl a few rriinutes aro, thnt is all. MR. ROnFPTS: ----- ---•- - If it is in order then, Your Honour, let 1:11z mnke a ver:v hrief statement. 1 hnve here a copy of Dr. Ross's letter of resignation, T do not want to rend it to the House but I will r,ladly let hon. rent1c>man see it nncl 1 think when thf:Y read it they will know why. I can assure the House thnt Dr.

Ross's resignation,.as senior medical officer, and he asked to f',O back to Channel ,that his quarrel is not with ~he Government. He is unhappv about some aspects,yes, of course. The hon. pentlernnn,hnving heen :Minister of Henlth,knows that that is alwnvs so, and I do not Yant to make it public. I think it is for a rood reason, but 1 nm ouite willinr, to let any hon.. r,entlenan see it as a private document. My collenpues in the Cabi.1et hnve seen it as well, because it is not mar'ked private. It is a 1Btter addresscrl to Dr~ Collin;:wood, ~y medical director. So I will ~laCly let you look at it.

Let me say one or two othPr thin~s, Your Honour. The Channel Pospitnl h;is unclerrone sore very difficult davs. The wan vho was there for fT!any years. Dr. LeC.rm,?, a vcrv fine doc tor, a very fine persnn,became sick laterally anrl eventually retired at a relRtively younr- ar:e,on a medicnl pension. f.7e then had a yenr when he w.n.s on leave of ahsence medi.c:illy and thi? hospital was without a full-titr)e SMn and then we had a vear when we had no nerranent person an<l t'wn John Ross asked to go hack to Channel,as he had served in ChAnnel hefore. Dr.

Ross wns thet'e for a vear ;mfl hns now rcsivned and hns ·vtritten, as I said. a four n:i~e letter nuttinr- m1t his frclinr.s. Tn thnt perin<l since 1 have hcen ¥inister.we hnve <l{snisserl t110 secretaries at the h0snital or sh.n.11 I sav t~o hnve resirncd, two sccrctnries at the hospital h~ve resipnerl. T w-ill not s:w they nr~ disriissed,as 1 said thnt in error nnii ,;325

Hay 21st. 1971 Tape 720(Hornine) JM - 7 1'fR. ROP,.FRTS : --~ ---- ~------ I want to maVe it cle~r that they were not disnissed 1 as they did resi~n. We have now unpainted a new secretary. Mr. Brvson Webb. We had a cornpetition,as we h.1d a ~ood nunber of good applicants,and f!r. Febb was reconmenrlcd to rre hv mv officials and we had to give him soAe specinl consideration as he is the chief lahratory technelogist at the Grand F8lls l!osrital and a verv superior nnn indeed, I am told.

He is taking a snlnry cut, PVen thoup-h we are nayin.r; him a little rr.ore than he would normally ret,startinp, ns a $ecretary,nnd the secretary is the Chief Administrntive Officer in the Cottagl? Hcspitals. Ve h,ctve a new senior nedical officer, as I oentioned earlier. Dr. !'-fallick, and we think thnt cor:thination will be a very effective one. The only other thinr ! can sny is that we have spent, 1 do not hnve the fir.ure, but it is a couple of hundred thousand dollars ad.dint! .a pediatric ward, inprovini:r outpatient facilities and so forth. }l!L CROSRIE: t<'ha t ahout the operating room? ~ffl.

RO'P.F'.RTS: I aw nnt sure nhout the operatinr rooP1. t think we v:ould not l?xnect a p-r<>at ,1eal of surpery to be done in Channel ,with the redonnl centre at Corner Flrook,which is ahout one hundred and twenty I do not lrnoH in det;dl what has been done with the npen1tinv room hut 1 1dll see if 1 can get thnt infornmtion.

The oth;:_,r point I will nake.tin sur.nary, NL ChairT1an~ is that the rhnnncl Fosnitnl,throurh ,1. corhinntion of circumstances.has not hnd thr conti.nning medical cnre,nt;;. senior level of direction,thnt I would 1H·e to sec and alf.o it has not hnd the ad:rdn:istration that I >.:auld like to see. In e,1ch case I thin!: we have t:1ken stens ;ind they did n0t W(lrJ,-. T think we h;,ve tahm other steps r.:hic:h I think w:ill work.

T should nCrl thnt T think thnt. anrl this is a nnint 1 will ri;,}·e this afternoon t.1'1en T Feet a larfl'e d.cleration frnrn the comrmnity. that I thinl,- the ncorile 0f t½e CC'l"".l!ltmitY can dn :nnrc, ! thinl-: thev con do

}'nv 21st. 1971 Tape 72D('lorninp) MR. RORFRTS: ·-----~-- Milch more to nnJ·e 1 ife and work for the doctors in Channel attractive and worthwhile. T do not want to izo beyond that,but I clo think that th;it: is a fair stnternent to make, Your Honour, and I do think thnt.if the people of that area would perhaps work in a little different spirit with the doctors 1 it mirht ~ake it easier for us. I am not so much concerned about the junior medical officers turnover as we have n very hir:h turnover and always have had. The hon. rremher from Gander,I am sure, has seen doctors come and go, at a junior level.

JM - 8 !-<R. ROTIERTS: Well, thnt is a matter of opinion. We will resolve that -~----------- in due course. nut the hon. rentler,an I am sure has seen junior doctors com<> and go. That is the nature of tl-e service but we have had real prohlems at Channel. The ouite irresponsible statement nade last night, as it was reported, has not helped 1my but it h;is given the Committee an opportunity. at least, to hear a stateBent from me and there ~aybe questions now froM other hon. members and I will try to deal with them. Meanti~e,if someborly woulrl cnrry this across to the gentlenan from St.

John's West~ Oh"y,ny colleague the ~1inistcr of Finance is doin? it. That is rill T need to srty right now, Sir. MR· f'ARLE: Mr. Chairman, on this District Met:lical Service. I think this is the annrorriate nlace to ask the ?finistcr so~c nuestions on the doctor's residence. I notice there iR a vote here for rental for doctor's resi~cnce~. ~y onlv co!"fTT1ent is this~ I ?elievP,in answer to a ouestion which 1 ask n short time aro,there is reference to a number of prPfahricater 1 ho11e;cs or these houses which nre nre-bnilt at Stephenville.which have been provirerl for welfare officers, rrapistrntes :ind doctors.

T w:is in one of these a couole of Wf!e.1--s ar-o ;mrl.when 1 F.:ldf' the 1nm1irv ,1 found out th:it the laid-dm'TI CO!';t of the thinr- 4327

Hny 21st, 1971 Tape 72/J(Morninr,;) MR. EARLE: - ~--- , ~--~ finish('d was approxi~ately $25.000. Now in my opinion, and I am e,rpressing a nersonal opinion that these buildinPs are not entirely snitnhle for the -purpose for which they are bcinr rirovirled 1 11nrtin:L1rily :in the case of a doctor. In entering one of them vou get th£> impression that you are poinp into a p:lorified trailor.

Tt is not by ;my Me<ms ,'1 substcntial hoMP1;md to cost $25,flDfl. for such a crention to F!C is outrac:eous because I have seen far hetter hores lmllt by local 1ahour 1 in the outports 1which cost half that fi_rrure,even at t0dnvs cxhorhitn.nt cost. For :i bui=;y doctor,vho has a nuri'her of patients c:d.linr on hin all the tine,if he is R family mm,his f;mjlv ,irc n11 nhout his e2rs: in a residenre of that sort/ the th1nr is wide open.

Tt is somcthinr like a one ... level place where evervhoctv is on top of rnch c,ther and to provide that at a cost of S:25,000. for a doctor,in mv way of thinking is coMpletely unsuitable. A younp. welfare offic<'r, yes nerha.ps, who has no family or just his ·wife and himself; it is irtcnl RCCOMCHlnti.on or for anvone else in that particular nositi.m1~ But very often,in the case of a doctor,ynu pet a senior man with a fa'!:!ily and a resirlence of that sort is not in any t,•av suitable for then.

I hnve ~een some of the doctors resirlcnces which are old but very 111uch r,ore suhstnntial and I cannot for the life of me see then replaced by this type of thinr, at such a tremendous cost. I would like the !-~inister to comnent as to whether or not those that h:1Ve been insta1]ed are satisfactory to the ~erlical nen and are they plea5ed with theM and does the Govern!!lent think they are Rettinf: good value for t~fdr money? MR. ?DfJrRTS: Hr.

Chairn;m~ as far as I know.and 1 h;we talJ,ed to nost of our cottnr.e hospital doctors and I have heen in some of the houses and T understanrl the doctors, by and lari::e,it is not to sav there are not anv prohlcms • of course there nre, by and ln.n~e find the residences ~328

!Any 21st, 1971 Tape 720(Mornin~) JM - 10 MR •• RORcRTS : quite, quite good. Our senior ncdical staff, more and more, we are tryin~ to put in new houses thnt tend to cost $45 to $50,000., Burin for exal!lple 1 nnd we bnil t one at Port aux Basques or Channel. But the junior doctors, who are the younper doctors I I rather find them acceptable. Indeed at Sprinrdale the senior medical officer, Dr. Evans 1who, BS SM01 would have his choice,J'1'1ovcd out of a suhstantial piece-built house into one of the prefabricated ones.

The cost? in some cases have gone high and I am stnrgered to ]earn that most of these are the basesments. In Harbour Breton the basement cost us Sll,000. '1-hat is what Public Works had to pay to ret a baseJTient huilt,ns there were tenders and all that sort of thinp:. Dnsenents hnve beP.n averap,inr? ~5~000. and $6,000. and the house itself costs, I believe. ahout S15,OOO. and then we have to pay a dollar a mile or sonethinr. to have it moved. This year we will be doing some of either, We will be buildin~ ~owe houses and we will be getting some of the µrebuilt ones. ¥!hile I am on I!lY feet, Mr.

ChniTMan, I havn been informed that the work we did nt Ch:mnel, the extension,which was completed late in 1970 or mid 1970 1 includinp a new operatinR room and a new delivery room or an obstetrics case room. Rut on tlie houses, }1r.

Chairman, as far as I know, now I may vet an avalanche of letters and telephone calls from the medical staff, but ;is far as t know they are generally acceptat-le~ I have a number of sources ,::1t di fferc>nt levels, some officials and some personnel in the ~cdicnl services of our staff and I ~ather that they are ouite satif;ff.erl with the houses. \\Te huilt, {I have a ouestion I do not have all the tnfornation on) I think we have fifty-seven houses now around and nhout :me! Inst yeAr :llone Ye nrovided another twelve and we have about eipht or nine or ten to do this year. !-'R.

F/\.'lLF: TJnc!. the Minister think they are rood values'? 4329

~'av 21st, 1971 Tape 720(Mornin~) JM - 11 _R_O_D_F.:,,P~i:_SJ_ I have no idea what a house is "Worth. I built .a house at Hogan's Pond and I can tell the hon. _gentleman it cost t1e consirlerahly more th~n ~20,ono. ~lll. FARLE: -- - -~- -~- T-fo11, T do not think it was a type of a trailer. Fell, it is not prefabricated, you Jrnow the b;mk made sure of thnt. HR._ EARLF,: __ The hon. Minister is not livinr, in something that looks like a trailer. 1-TTl. ROBERTS : No, 'hut on the other hand the hon~ Hinister cloes not ·have a doctor's salR.ry either.

On motion, (02) (01), (02), (03) carried. 1013(04) {01) ~ FPFCIAL PPOGR,WHES: Drups, Supplies and Appliances: ~:It-• __ C.RO):T:IE · Entler Snecial Pror,ramrnes: Drugs. Sup!Jlies an<l J\.nplinnces is that with the DepnrtTr.ent of Welfa_re or which E.recictl progranme is that? officers around the Province certify that a patient is ~ualified under the rer:>:u1attnns and this is the vote out of which WC' pAv it. The Comriittec> will note a transfer to other subheads, H:tlf of thnt money is recovered from Ottm•:n lttnder the Canada Assistance Plan ,ani! nost of it is drnPs.

Last yenr \.•e provided ar>out five hundred th0nsand prescriptions out of thnt vote, Your Honour, in addition to about twf!nty-:,;;evcn hnndrrd n.iirs of eycJ?lasses and we do supply a nuTT't"er of hearinr aids. tfo have succeeded in cuttinr the cost of hcarinr aids froM $150. a unit to S15. a unit,by the siriplc expedient of rninp to the t1ni tN1 r:inprlon and nurchnsinr throurrh t7.ei r Governnent there. These cost ~1sn. and we ret exactly comnarahle fac:ilitif's or hcririnr: aids at fifteen hucP's cnch.

Hnst of it is clrur:s and thrit sort of thinP 1 Put the exnendittire is r-one, just skyrod·,etcd. !:T-:.:_ ~?_0_S~TF'. :_ 1·.'hv i1'- the vote this yenr estimnted to he, annnrcntly ;i

T.npe 720nforninr-) Jl' - 12 f'R. CROSRTE: -----·- --•-"- vcnr a.r:o this til1'1c the ~'inister ar;k for $1,235,000. bttt thPrr. wns actun1lv snPnt last yPnrt nccordinr to the revised estimates,Sl.88S.nn0. which was $hDn.n0n. rn0rc. and this ve;,,r the Minister is askin2 for ~3no,r1110. lrs.s thrm wns nctualJ.y spent last yt>ar. \Vhy does he nnti.cinnte -? MR. RORFRTS: -----------·-~ The exnenniture actually.as of March Jlst,was one point seven ?nd three eiP-ht rlJlions. fly the way I have, Your Honour. ctctual cxnenditure fiPnres 1as of the> 3Jst of l'-farch.

The revised fir:ures we.re dnne in Decerrber, I think, or .Tannarv. I can only sav two thincs·, one WC' do not rcnlly know whnt it is goinp to be, how many prescriptions there .ire roinri: to be and so forth ,:mrl I secondly 1 we are now in thn rnins t of sonc tnlks with the drtH•riRts,11nder which we think we mav he ard.e tr, acf"'ieve some suhstantinl savinrs at the saf"e time p.ivinr, the p¾F!mncists :1 f.dr return For their p;:irt in it.

Whnt we are tryinr: to f!,,__~t ~t is to see if we can re<lttce the cost of drufs to the pharmacists, n.•.1d ive think we have sorr,e wavs for that* But it maybe that tho.t one point five eirht five request is a tritwiph of hope over experience, Your Honour, I do not renl)v know. This is the most m1controllr1hle vote that we have in the Dep;irtment of Health .. drurs, T think you v.et a card and 1when you J!O to the dru~ store,you can clrnrr:e it.

"iow I thinY this 'W'nS brour,ht up last nip-ht too; What about if vou .-irr :, oerson who :fs f'<'t on Rocicl assi~t;,nc-e hut low incorr'c, you rn1vht be worldnf" ;md~1et us SRv,vou get diabetes .-ind yon have to have n lot of insulin and you have to hrwe a lot of drups, c.nn tl-tcy also avnil of this nrorrannc hec,m,;e ,if thev c;:innot it is certninlv not vr:rv wel 1- lrnown? ~--R~iffPTS: 'T'he nnsw<>r is ves, ~fr. Chnirrrian. A rierson dors not h;ivf' to be ;,n ~:elfnrc to receive cntitlcrent to drm"S. TndcPd, Vf'tir Hono11r. I know of ;,. case wherf' a ncrson mnkinro ;ihout f:.s,nnn. r! ye;ir recvivr<l £331

M;iy 2Jst, 1971 Tape 72D(Mornin~) JM - 13 HR. ROBF,RTS: ·--~---- nssistnnce throur:h tPc Dcpnrtr,,ent of l-!elfare 1 ns it then was,, I was with the P'inister, with tnmspnrtntion ~ Hhat it does I under the Ca.nada Assist:mce P1 ;m, Ynur ilonrn1r, is one 1 ~ needs are measured I anrl neerls can include dn1rs 1 11nd if it is nn exncnsive and contimdnr: coun;e of drurs,that is tnken into nrcotmt, one I s resources are ne;u:;ured ;md if there is a diffprenca hetucP.n thr two,thcn 1within the bounds of the prorrBnrie: 1 CAP can help. Indeed for thnt matter we hnve a guaranteed annual incone in 'Nf'wf0undl:rnd.

A pP.nmn cnn be t-mrkinr, and still r-:et nssistance from thP nep.1.rtrent of Wel fnre, l f his wnr,es do not eqnal the ar,ount he woulrl he entitled to 1.mi'er socin] ;1ssistnnc:e. I r,nther it is not well-known but it is n fact. l-'R. EARLE: !'1r. Chain-ran, this is the ouestion - Just he!ore the hon. r-entlePlan speaks,coulrl he yield ~or n moment. Mr.

ChniTT'!nn, I crave the indulRcnce of the CoMT1ittce to do snnet'iini:-; which is 1 T think. hiphly irretular nnd probab]y out of orrle,.,... or thP lender::; oripositc ,mcl nv hon. co1lcarue and th£' ?re.Mier and they have n.11 arrced tlrnt it would he suitable at this time for r,e to convey fl wclcorne from the House an<:! frot11 the Cot':'Plittee to some fifty students from t~c corr:mnities anrl tot.ms of LaScie and Tiaie Vertc.in my district of Fhite Tiav South. 1'hese students, nround ,ns I said ,fifty in number, arc from tlw rrade nx" classes at the Inter:radecl Hiph School at Baie Verte nn<l the Tnter-rnrk•d Fi.rh School at LaScie.

Thev ;;.re in the charge of ?-fr. Alf f)uinton,who is the rutdance councillor at the P.oie Verte school, and Pr.

Hay 2!, 1971 Tape no. 721 Page l -MRW Hr. Rowe (W,N.): Halfyard, Job Halfyard, the Principal of the LaScie. Integrated School Board. The reason, Sir, that I did want to break tradition and make this welcome is because I believe that with the exception of some visits we have had from students from Labrador, I believe that these students are probably representative of schools furtherest away from St~ John's and from this Bouse that we have had visit us so far during this session. I may be wrong on that. Perhaps my hon~ friend - at least, Sir, if not the furtherest away then one of the furtherest away.

I do want to extend a hearty welcome to these students. They are in here today, I believe they cnmc in yesterday. They vill be in today and going back tomorrow¾ They are here to tour the University, the Arts and Cultural Centre, the technical School and the Fisheries College,with a view, no doubt, to decidinr, upon their careers in the future, when they graduate from schooL I welcome these students, Mr. Chairman, and I wish them every luck in their endeavours during the present school year. Thank you~ HR. 11, COLLINS: Mr Chairman, I would like to join in welcoming the students from Raie Verte and LaScie.

I know the area quite well. In fact, first when I started working with the old Department of Telegraphs, I worked in LaScie and Harbour Deep one summer and fall. Certainly it is a great pleasure to see students from the outlying areas come into St~ John's. On behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House and on behalf of Mr. Bill Eaton 1who is to be the future member in that particular district 1 I would like to join with the present member. in welcoming these students. MR. EARLE: Mr.

Chairman, when we departed from the procedure by welcoming with the students, ,;which we all agree incidentally, I was referring to a question vhich I raised last night on this Drug Supply and so on. The vote, as the hon. member for St. John's West mentioned.is below last year. When I asked the question last night,the hon. the minister said that the cost was accelerating continuously and each year it was going up and up and up. This year it would probably be more than it was last year. Now we find that it is less.

My only comment on that is that I hope, if this sheuld prove to be the case, that the department will be mare lenient in some of the cases. of the type which I mentioned

May 21, 197! Tape no. 721 Page 2 ~ Mr. Earle. last night. I referred particularly to cases of old people who are living on Old Age Pensions, who had very heavy medical expenses indeed for drugs~ They tlnd it extremely difficult to cope with the transportation costs to hospital and the drugs. It is only a matter of a week or so ago that I was in the home of one of these people, one of these persons,and they advised me that

whereas they could not get assistance for drugs, although both of them are on very expensive drugs and also had very heavy transportation costs, back and forth to clinics and hospit'als, their next door neighbour, who was on Social Assistance,was able to afford six big benders a year,regularly. They were wondering how they were over-looked for a mere reguirement of drugs

whereas somebody else could go out on a terrific toot, as you say. Well certainly this sort of thing would require an investigation8 The point I am making, particularly in the case of old and disabled people and those who have very small incomes, I hope that the minister will be able to take a look at it and perhaps be~d over backwards to help those people. HR, CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, just before we leave it, I feel that the Department of Health or the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation, which does not have a minister in the House at the moment, should publicize this drug policy of the Government a bit more. It certainly is not widely known you can have assistance for this purpose, although you are not a client,as the non-minister of that department puts it. Even though you are not a client of the Department of Social Services and Rehabiliation,you can get assistance if you have heavy drug c9sts and not sufficient inco~e, a low income.

You may be working or vhntever it is. I think a bit more publicity;is needed. The minister of each of those departments is the type to hide himself or not to seek public attention. They should publicize that a bit more and I think it would be very valuable. There are a lot of people suffering because of these drug costs. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairnan, it is not Modest Moxey Yho speaks to you but I can say nobody ever accused my colleague 1 the Minister of •• MR. CHAIR!-1A.~I: Order please!

May 21, 1971 Tape no. 721 Page 3 MR. ROBERTS; Your first political speech, is it Ross? MR. BARBOUR: Yes. MR. CHAIRM..AN: Order please~ MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairmani with regard to (04), there is just one comment that I would like to make .and this is the contribution to the Medicare Commission. All throughout the Department of Health Accounts you see Appropriations-in-Aid from Ottawa for the Medicare Plan. When the Medicare Plan was brought into existence,two years ago, we were told that the actual cash gain in Newfoundland would be considerable,for the first five or six years anyway.

Then it would even itself out and Newfoundland would then have to pay for this social service that we are getting. But certainly,for the first five years, medicare was to have cost us nothing and indeed we were to have realized money from it~ I think the rational given or some of the rational was the fact that with respect to district medical care, where you have district hospitals and cottage hospitals)that they would pay a portion of the expenses,medicare hills, therefore the Province did not pave to pay it. I have yet to see, Mr. Chairman, an ov~rall atater.ient.

I know it is probably thete through these accounts but you would have to compare the estimates of previous years as well. I wonder whether the minister could tell us what the exact cash position is now,with respect to the relationship between Ottawa and the Province,with respect to Medicare~ Are we still making a net gain? Secondly, whethe~ we perhaps could have some of his officials prepare a statement showing us the gains that we have had over the past two years, what net gains we will have in the future, etc.

I do not recall ever having seen it put down on paper, other than having that statement made a couple of years ago. MR. CEOSBIE: Before the minister replies, as the 11 Father of Medicareu in Newfoundland, the minister will remember, I introduced the Bill and got it through the House •• ~ HR. ROBERTS: I had to do the work. L.a335

May 21, !971 Tape no, 721 Page 4 MR. CROSBIE: Well it was already working pretty well before the minister came on the scene~ J:!R. ROBERTS: ,{Inaudible), MR. CROSBIE: Pardon. I did not hear that. MR. ROBERTS: Hy colleague is assenting over here. MR.

CROSBIE: In fact there was a Cabinet disagreement already this morning4 The Medicare Plan, Mr~ Chairman, as the minister is going to explain, was never intended to make money for the Government of Newfoundland~ The point was that it would not cost the Government of Newfoundland any net increase,it was estimated~at least for three or four years, Ii think it is still true. It was never that we were going to make money. It was still going to cost us what we had been spending on the cottage hospital service or the children 1 s hospital health plan and so on~ We would be still spending money.

We were not going to save any money. We could hrrve medicare for three, four or five years without any net increase in the Newfoundland Treasury. I think that is still the position and not that we were going to make any money on it. Mk. ROBERTS: If I get a moment, I will give you the facts. Mh, CROSBIE: The minister, when he &ets a moment, is going to give us the facts, so he says. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for St. John 1 s Yest may have been the stepfather of medicare, as a Government measure, that the Government of Newfoundland brought in. At that time he was part of the government.

He then separated~ The point made by him though is sound. In 1968, 1969, the last year before medicare became effective, .the last financial year, the Government spent $4~283 million, (Well it was nearly $4,300,000)on services of a type that has now been covered by medicare. Those include: children's health, the medical portions of salaries of medical staff in our hospitals, vesperal services for the indigent.and so forth& Now that was two years ago. Since then we have increased the salaries substantially and all that.

It usually cost $6 million to provide the services that we provided for $4.3 million three years ago. £33G

May 21, 1971 Mr. Roberts. Tape no. 721 Page 5 This year the net cost,to the people of Newfoundland,of medicare, we estimate as shown in the grant here of little under $4 million. In other words, we are~ Your Honour, about $2 million in pocket. Our people are getting a great deal more medical care than they were before.

It would not be correct that we arc going to make money on medicare~ But it is correct to say that our expenditures, which we would have had to incur, presumably those program.~es would have continued, the cottage hospital programme, the children's programme. the care for indigents and so forth,as everything does, thP. cost would have risen. We are now providing those at less cost. It is less actual cost if you take into account the fact that there are three years in the difference. It is probably in the order of $2 million that we are ahead.

The hono gentleman, if he can write out the sort of statement he wants, I will ask my officials to try and put it together for him. MR, EARLE: Mr. Chairman, I recall at the time when medicare came in that there was some discussion"in Ottawa. There was a fear that Ottawa might change the formula under which this system worked out* If they had taken such a step , it was feared that it would cost the Province a great deal more.

I would like to ask the minister.is there is still a danger of that] Have there been any recent discussions held with his counterpart in Ottawa,to indicate that the plan will go onlon the same basis as it is at present 1or is there likely to be any change on the part of Ottawa in this matter? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the Government of Canada, as has been announced I believe, through the minister, Mr. Monroe, are now reviewing all of their share-cost programmes,including the two big ones in Health, Hospital Insurance and Medicare.

The present plan expires in another two years,! guess it is 1 that is the leEislative authorization from Ottawa. There is no doubt in my mind, Your Honour, that either that plan will continue or a better one will be substituted becau5e I am sure this Province and every other province will have to end the medical care schemes,without Federal contributions9 '!Jhat form it will take, we are talking black-grants.for argument's sake, so much per capita. ~337

-· May 2!, 197! J\R. ROBERTS. Tape no. 721 Page 6 Ottawa is giving us $12 million or $13 million for medicare this year~ We could use that far more effectively to provide medical services. If we, i~e~, we talked last evening, Your Honour, about physician associates We cannot pay them under medicare~ I do not know what form the programme is going to take~ It is under discussion& If I could quote Mr. Pickersgill, the hon, Mr.

Pickersgill,who is a fOunt of a great deal of wisdom, I remember him saying time and time again, "never, never have Otta<,o1a ever ended a programme without replacing it with a better one." Federal/Provincial beef. That is the whole nature of the MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on the question of cost. 'As the minister knows, the reason why Newfoundland was able to do relatively so well financially 1 in medicare,was that the grants were based - the Federal Government pays us fifty per cent of the national per capita cost of medicare times the number of people* HR. ROBERTS: Times the number of insured people. MR.

CROSBIE: Times the number of people in the Province who are insured urder medicare~ Now the national per capita costs were and I guess they st\11 are quite a bit higher than the per capita costs in Newfoundland.but Newfoundland's are rising~ MR. ROBERTS: No, the national ones are rising. MR. CROSBIE: Are they rising, too? Could the minister give us the national per capita cost for last year, under medicare, as compared to the per capita costs in Newfoundland? Has he any estimate of the time when our per capita cost may be the same as the national average, the national per capita! Is there any forecast o:t that?

At that time, you know, medicare is going to start ·cos.ting the Newfoundland Government money. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I do not have the figures here but our per capita costs are over a little half the national cost. Ottawa is putting in about 113 million this year and we are putting in about $4 million So $13 million ia how much per capita? That is $26. per capita and multiply that by 2 and you got ,;,338

May 21, 1971 Tape no. 721 Page J; Mr~ Roberta. $52 per capita as the national per average cost. Our per capita costs - I am sneaking from quick calculation. from memory When the two lines will meet( I think they will ne?er meet, because the national per capita is rising very dramatically and ours is rising nearly as dramatically,but I think the gap in dollars, in, absolute dollars is probably why MR. CROSBIE: Could you give us the figures this afternoon? MR. ROBERTS: I may give the figures in a few seconds. In 1970-1971, Medicare actually paid us cash. It was $170,000 back out of the grant we had given them.

Actually it was $169,532,I am told. MR.

CROSBIE: Before we leave this Item (2), Mr~ Chairman, it was jfscussed in the House 1several weeks ago 1-tere ,the incomes of doctors, under medicare and so on - also that there have been abuses~ There were investigations madeo I just want to point out to the committee that I have been noticing in the 11 6lobe :.· and Mail 11 during the last several weeks that there is quite a fuss on in Ontario about the same subject~ There have been abuses in Ontario and they are finding the same problems in Ontario as we found here~ As far ar I can see ,we dealt with them much more cruickly and much more expeditic.·1sly here and much more smoothly than they are going to 1o with them in Ontario.

What I want to point out is that these problems are going to arise in all the provinces. It is not because we have some doctors in Newfoundland that are different from doctors elsewhere or patients or whatever, but this is a problem that is going on now in every province including Ontario. I think the minister can Confirm that. fffi. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, goes so fast when he gets a chance~ MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, the question I was going to ask was what is unallocated? There is a provision here, $200,000 as against $18,000. MR. ROBERTS: I just happen to have a breakdown of it.

The Drug Drop-In Centre, we agreed to give them an estimated $20,000, ,tha't is the Kiwanis one here in St~ John's. We estimate that we are going to Spend about $25,000 on a fluoridation programme. MR. EARLE: Where? MR ROBERTS: Anywhere,probably Gandero I announc.ed ,it some weeks ago here. ~339

May Zl, 197! Tape no. 721 Page 9 Mr. Rohe rts. We have made a programme and the Tmm of Gander will qualify for help. MR. CROSBIE: This is to assist in putting in equipment,is it? MR~ ROBERTS: And assist in the operating costs. MR. CROSBIE: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: There are some small ~rants in herea The Multiple - Sclerosis Society, $1,000~ The Canadian Diabetic, $1,800. I think they run a summer camp here on the strength of that. We are renting a clinic up in St. Alban's, $1,2000. That is for dentists to come down from Grand Falls. We estimate that we will need about $90,000 for our ambulance programme this year.

We have also got an item of $50,000 in 1which is our estimate of what we will need for some community clinics~ The costs are not covered in other subheads. There is $11,000 as this states, unallocated in fact. I have no doubt that we will use it. That is, we will help to build a factory in Roncontre or Terrenceville. thiR is where it comes out~ MR. CROSBIE: Was that $50,000 for clinics? MR. ROBERTS: Well we estimate $50,000 for some equipment costs. There are other places which we covered, hospital insurance and so forth~ MR. CROSBIE: Just shooting for a moment, Mr.

Chairman, can we discuss ambulance service later on? HR. ROBERTS: Discuss·? MR. CROSBIE: Ambulance serviceo Could we discuss it now? The minister said that he had $90,000 in that vote for ambulance; MR. ROBERTS: It can be done there or it could be done under hospital insurance. We pay out of both votes. MR. CROSBIE: Okay then we will wait, because we are past it, I guess. 1 would like the minister to explain the policy on ambulance service? HR. ROBERTS: Do you -want to do it now or later? I mean I will only do it once. MR. CROSBIE: I was going to ask a question about dentists bot I will not.

The Chairman is a speed artist. Once he gets the chance to go on a subheadw look out! On Mental Health, Mr. Chairman, could the minister tell us that ones '= 3 4 0

Hay 21, 1971 Mr. Crosbie. Tape no. 721 Page 91 the extension is finished on the Mental Hospital. what then would be the number of beds per thousand units of population in the Province? Lest year Dr. Pottle made a speech,in which he pointed out ·that we only had 1.9 beds per thousand units of population to care for the mentally ill, compared with the Canadian average of 3~5 beds per thousand units.

In addition Newfoundland had only half the staff per unit of population in comparision with the Canadian average~, The minister has announced that there is to be an ex~ension built on to the Mental Hospital~ There are to be some beds at Western MemoriaL Now after that programme ia through, how are we going to stand up statistically with reference to these figures? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, if we pass this now, I will have the information on that by the time we get to the Hospital for Mental and Nervous Diseases. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on 1021,-08, Health Care Costs •• HR.

ROBERTS: That is a collection of all the Canada Assistance Plan aubbhads. We arranged th~ estimates to show the tWe programme costs. The commi~tee will note there a fifty per cent recovery from Ottawa, that is under the Canada Assistance Plan, Your Honour. ~iR. CROSBIE: Last year, Mr. Chairman, under this heading, 1021-:-08, Health Care Costs, the estimate that was given was $1,815,000. There was actually $2,626,000 spent,according to the revised estimates. That is $800,000 more. This year $2.4 million was estimated. Why was the difference last year?

Why did the minister have to spend $8QO,OOO more than the estimate? MR. ROBERTS: This is really the same discussion we had on drug costs. That is or ninety-nine per cent of that figure is the drug coat subhead. So the same ansuer is applied to the same question. There are two programme subheads, Your Honour. One is the Canada Assistance and the other is Medicare,where we gather in all the costs and show the contributions from Ottawa. HR. EARLE: What was the actual cost as of the 31st. March? MR. ROBERTS: I am ashamed to say that I do not have it. On drugs it was $1.8 millions. I will get that figure and have it.

Let us go·on with it. I will get the figure and I will give you the actual cost. 4341

Nay 21, 1971 Tape no. 721 Page l !) HR. HARS!L\LL. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister a question and I am not sure if it is among the correct subhead or not? I will ask it anyway~ People in the vicinity of King•s Cove in Bonavista Bay are anxious ~ith respect to medical services down in that area. I would like to ask if there is any - I noted from the Medicare Commission Report, if my memory serves me correctly, that there are few if any doctors in Bonavista South. I think in the agjoining district of Trinity North or Trinitv, I am not sure, the same situation exists.

In any event in the King's Cove area the~e is certainly a need of a doctor's residence or a nursing station or something. We have had this inquiry. Proportionately, there are .1ust as many Tories in King's Cove as were found in Eastport and this is why they are all anxiously awaiting the reply of the minister to this question~ HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, once again the hon. gentleman is too late. He obviously was not listening to the committee yesterday evening when I announced our p~ogramme there.

My friend,the member for Bonavista South, was out of bed and had done a day's work before the hon. gentleman even opened his 1 eft eye lid. We are going to provide facilities in the King's Cove area and in Trinity, Trinity Bay. These are the two areas where there is a need 1 in that part of the Province. There is money in the estimates to cover itJ under D Lstrict Medical care~ HR. EARLE: I would like the minister to give us some information. There were reports last year that there was somewhat of a resurgence of tuberculosis throughout the Province. This brought in a bit of a scare.

What is the position at the moment? Ate there more cases being discovered or are less being discovered1 How is it getting along? HR. ROBERTS: There is no truth in ,the reports, Your Honour. In 1970, we discovered throughout Newfoundland 236 new ,active cases of tuberculosis. The year before the figure was 273. The year before that it was 258~ The year before that 240. So it is the lowest everj actually. Our rate per thousand is still much

May 21, 197! Tape no. 721 Page 11 Mr. Roberta~ too high. It is forty-six per one hundred thousand. The 'Ilational average is twenty .. So,we are still more than twice the national average2 We have nothing at all to boast about. except that we have made immense progress. We did hnve a problem a couple of years ago, particularly in the Northwest River area,where we discovered a pocket of tuberculosis,but we made arrangements with the IGAF and I understand that the people who are suffering in that area, you know, the extra facilities were made available. There was no research since last year. There has been a reduction.

Mav 2!, 1971. Tape 722 Page 1. ~iorninr Session. It has been quite dramatic; in '61 our rate per hundred thousand was eirhty-three. It has pone down steadily over the ten ycars 1 Your Honour, 2:r,d it is no¥ forty-six per hundred thousand~ Quite a success story~ 1-'R,CPOSBIE: Deportment 1--fR. T;OUEFTS: llenl th 1037. On 1034-01 1 Environmental Health §ection of the ~inister 1 s • Chairman: There are several points 1 would like to conment on. ERCO would be more appropriate under a later subhead 1 Industrial HR .CROSIHE: Well, let us discuss it now - I do not mind 1 I will leave that to Environnental Health.

Environmental Heolth; this 1s presumably the case where Olivers Pond would be under Environr.,ental Henlth. MR.ROBERTS: Yes, among others. HR.CROSBIE: Or permits 1 whe~e the ~inister 1 s Department of Health Inspection, ,,·here they inspect T,,1ater and sewerap.e and permits to drill wells, that kind of operation. Now, the Minister said, last ni~ht, which I ap:ree with him 7 that the Olivers Pond problem is a problem of land use. This I think is quite correct, Y.fr. Chairman.

But, the question then is, here ve have a situation where the Minister of Health refuses to give a permit for coustruction of facilities and housing in Olivers Pond Area, because of advice of his officials that there is any health factor involved here, but because he does not agree with the land use contemplated for the Olivers Pond Area. I agree with the Minister that this would be the wronp: land use for the Olivers Pond Area. But what this is pointi~g up really 1 Hr. Chairman. is that the body withi .. whose jurisdiction Olivers Pond comes, that the St.

John's }le tropol i tan Area Board is not rloinr a proper job in con.trolling land use within its jurisdiction. Here is the situation where the St. John's Metropolitan ,'\rca Board apriarently is willing to r,ive the developer a permit to develop these lots- summer cottaf!eS they are called-in Olf:,...-;rs Pond, They will not be sunrner cottar-es they will be permanent homes. I have asked the Department of Health to advise whether there is any objection,on health grounds. The Department flf l'e2.lth hns no objections on hc;'llth rrounds, but the ~linister has an ohiection 0n lnnd use r:rounds.

Properly so, but the real issue is .:hy did the St. John 1 s ,;344

!-lay 21, 1971. Tape 722. Pa~e 2. Mornin,z Session. Metropolitan Area Ronrd 1 in the first place) not rule out the application on the g'f'ounds that it was not a proper use for the land in this area? I find th.at the St. John's '-1etropolitan Area Board,Hr. Chairman, is becoming useless as far as the control of building in the SL John 1 s ffetropolitan Area is concerned. It would he just as well to disband the St.

John 1 .s ~1etropolitan Area Board;it is not doing its job. :{R.ROfiERTS: You can talk about ,that under Municipal Affairs really - }-fR.CROSBIE: Well, yes, I am going to talk about it here,then under Munid.pal Affairs too. What I am pointing out is that the Minister and his jurisdiction; under Environmental Health, is making the land use decision that should be rnac1e by the St. John's ~etropolitan Area Board if itwere functioning properly. ~TR.ROBERTS: The Minister is also acting within the powers on the advice of the lawyers,piven to him by law.

MR.CROSBIE: You are right, but the - anothe? point 1 am goinr, to take up with the Minister is,that is, the neople who are advising him on Environmental Health are too soft, in my opinion. They often advise the ~!inister that a permit can be granted for a sentic tank and so on ,when it would be - when it is pretty doubtful whether this is so or not.

In other words they are not strict enough. my feelin~ is, in deciding these matters, But if the Vinister wants to wait to have this discussed under "1unicipal Affairs - MR.ROBERTS: I think that is more appropr:!..ate, because it, you know, if the Metro Board is doing a good job or mot is really not the Department of Health. ~sR. Cf:.OSRIE: Well, the point is that the !'Ainister is making decisions thnt are not based :Jn heal th com:;iderations, that are based on land use con.sidernti.ons. MR.ROBEPTS: The }iinister is acting as pa:r,:,t. of the Government_ MR.CR0$1HE: The Government created the St ..

John's "'etrorolitan Aren Drinrd If it is not doing the s,1tisfactriry joh,uhy does the C:overnment not ;1ttack the problem there! ~R.PORERTS: That is ;m "if." "'1R.Ei\RLE: ~tr. Chnit"P:::Jn, I ~.:ou]d just like to ask the 'Hnister,uncler thi;:; vote, i.<. there ;1 gc,od lic1isnn l:--ct••-P!'.:'n his department ;md the Department rif Hirht·:ivs in clenrinr: 11r> snrr:e of the troubles? I referred to it n;irticu1arjv £345

Tape 722 Page 3~ Morning Session. in talking about this under a prevjous department¥ that stapnant ponds and ponds into vhich garhage iE', throt.in and all this kind of thing are all tno frequent in many of our outports. The conditions which are created are literally rHsgraceful~ Now, I have an instance in my district where this vns the c.ase 1 and have approached the Department of Health,who I think condemned the site. The Deoartment of IU!?hwaysf with the use of a hulldozer and the installntion of some larp-e draina~e pipes 1 soon cured the si tun tic,n.

I BP'! wonderinp.: how closely the Department of Health works with the Department of llip:hPays, who has to take the initiative in this case and hnF is it done. MF.ROBERTS: The answer is that there is the closest liaison, rnzrhaps the best case is the one at Terrenceville or Bay L1 Argent or somewhere or - 'lll.FARLE: Hr. Hille -------- MR.ROBERTS: Hr. }1ille 1 is it? But in any event my officials had a complaint mnde to them, I am not sure where it came from, it may have come throup;h the hon. rentleman. We had a complaint.

I hnve been keepin~ an eye on it 11 It has been strair,hter:.cd out, we have gone to Hir,hways and Highways agreed to have done the actual work. This happens through,,ut the Province. We nad a case in Middle Brook, Gambo. Mr. Paul, Chair.man of the Community Council, or the vice-chairman, whatever he is, r.1as in touch with me, '!'.here is very close and very good work and liaison;we get good cooperation from the - the Minister is not here. We get rood cooperation from the :-linister and his officials. MtLCROSBJF: Mr .. Chairman, 1037-04, this is Industrial Health.

It comes here under water pollution,in so far as the Y-inister is concerned. I raised in the Hnuse the other day and I umht:. to raise it again , tbe question of the Industrial Henlth situation in the ERCO Plant at Lonr. Har1'our, becausP I think this is very 1 very ~erious matter. ~ince I raised it in the Hnuse the other day 1 '-'r. Chairman, we have all received a copy of the submission by the Neufoundland and Lahrad0r Federation of Labour to the Government of Newfoundland.

That submission t,,•as made on Hay 19,. on page 7 of this suhmission of the federation of Labour this is stated about Industrial ~afety: ,.There <a34G

Mny 21, 1971. Tape 722. Par,e 4. i1orntn)! Session. is stjll a tendency in the industrial community, to downgrade health and safety considerations. We take serious issue with the lack of a resident medical doctor and adequate treatment facilities at the EPCO plant in the Lonr Harbour urea" The handling of phosphorus and the presence of phosphorus at this plant present constant hazards to health and safety, but adequate first aid precautions are not being provided for. 0 These are quite,l think very serious statements, that adequate first aid precautions are not being provided for.

The same is true for the transport of phosphorus by tank or truck to the plant. Then Mr, Chairman, they go on to say the plant are getting sick and frequently vomiting blood~ that people at The situation requires a full investigation jointly by the Minister of Health and the Minister of Labour." Now, Mr. Chairman, the Gov.2rnment only received the submission two days ago or May 19, today is May 21, t\,J'o days ago. So obviously we want to hear from the Minister as to what. Has an investigation been statted or what steps are heing taken to look :!nto this?

The labour people say t!:•at no resident doctor, that may or may not be necessary, but they say there are no adequate treatment facilities at the El?CO nlant, They say the handling of phosphprus at the plant present constant hazards to health and safety. They say adequate first aid precautions are not bein~ provided~ They say the same is true for the transport of phosphorus by tank or truck to the plant. They sny that people working at the plant are getting sick and frequently vomitinv blood. They say a full investipation is needed~ I requested that before and certainly would urge it again. In nddition, Mr.

Chairman, as I mentioned in the House the other day, from People who \<'ark at Long !!arbour I have been told~ I repeat it again because I think it is a serious matter, that in the furnace bui]rling it is constantly full of fumes, thnt is smoke and gns. My informants tell rr:e thnt employees are heinr laid off due to the fact that they cannot yrork in those conditions. }lfl .RfllH-rns: Just one, I had cne fellow to see me • Is there more th;rn one?

May 21, 1971. Tape 722. Pa~e 5. Morning Session. MR.CROSBIE: This is from several differen; people. MR.ROBERTS: The one t had to see me told me he also has psychiatric treatF1ent, he could not ~et anybody to pay any attention to him. MR.CROSRIE: Ripht. Well, I am paying attention to him. I do not know if it is the same one or not. If it is wrong, and the situation is different I know - Then I am told 1f-1r. Chairman, that ninety per cent of the time the furnace building floor is covered with effluent water, that is acid water.

Ue all know, as I mentioned the other night,there was an exnlosion down there a few weeks ago. This could happen again. The main problem, my informants tell me ,is the smnke and gas problem. Now, the smoke and gas at the ERCO plant is conducive to lung trouble~ You get diseases that are connected with the lungs. bronchitis, various diseases that affect the lungs. There have been people laid off down there,I ani told,because they are having luf'.g trouble. The Newfoundland Federation of Labour says that people are getting sick and fr~ouently vomiting blood.

As I said in the House the other nirht,apart from anything else,Mr. Chairman, this is going to be a big Workmen's Compensation problem before too many years are gone$ I know from people who are connected 't-:i th the Workmen's Comrensa tion Board that this is givinp; the Workmen's Compensation Board serious concern.

I understand that they are to have a meeting or have had a rneetin~ on this problem this month~ 1·:hen the Minister answered a question there a few weeks ago he sa1rl that since he had a Federal Official dm-'Tl last summer I to make an inspection of the nlnnt,his official have been back there 1 but he had not received any representations from the Union or any one involved that conditions there still left much to be desired., Now in view of what I have said in the House. in view of the Nevfoundl:md Federation of Labour brief, could the :.'-1inister tell us ·what has ~een done to investi~aee this situation and the possible hazards to health down at Long Harbour. !IP RnREPTS: "'r.

Ch.airman~ if it is one o'clock I ~ill make a stater.ent 2t three: I thlnk we have taken some fa1.r1y concrete acticn and I t.'rnder if :· could hnve hack Tl'Y letter from Dr. Ross ~'bccn11sP I h:.ve ,;.34e

ilay 21, 1971. Tape 722. Page 6. Morning Session. to meet a delepation,I think at 2:00 p.m. If it is one 0 1clock1 perhaps wr could call it one.,I will deal with this problem at three o'clock. MR.CHAIR"1.AN: It being 1;00 p.m~ I now leave the Chair 1mtil 3:0il p~r-

May 21, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 723 NC - 1 The House resumed at 3:00 P.M. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR~ B_OBERTS: ~r~ Chairman, a very few words on the ERCO situation that were raised, the problem was raised by an hon~ member immediately before the Committee adjourned. The Federation of Labour, in their brief,made some comments on the ERCO ~ituation.

I was not at the meeting of the Federation delegation with the Cabinet but I understand that the Premier at that meeting made the Government's position quite clear~ There is no need for us to,initiate an investigation into the ERCO problem,Your Honour,because we have been continuously and continually looking at that situation for at least a year now.

My own officials are in Long Harbour at least once every two months~ More importantly we had ~r~ Ross, an Engineer with the Canada Department of Health and Welfare,make a study, a study which I made public very quicklyitwo or three days after I received it last summer?and we are inviting Mr. Ross to come back and to make another study a yPar later. The Company has not only &5reed to go along with the recommendations made by Mr. Ross in his study but~I gather from my own officials, have made auite good progress. Some of the recommendations are completely implemented. I am concerned by what the hon. gentleman says.

I am cotlce:tne9 by what the Federations says and I am all the more concerned because I do not have any evidence to go on* The Federation makes sorr.e statements,and a brief perhaps is not the place to put supporting evidence but I would be grateful if the Federation of Labour could let me have that evidence. Similarly, if the hon. mewber for St. John's West has some evidence,! hope he will if he could let me have it I will have it looked into. I do know thnt one case has golle to the Workmen's Compensation Board, a gentle~an claiming he has bronchitis induced by working in the Plant.

I think, as the member for St. John's Hest says 1 the biggest prolem at ERCO is the air~ smoke nnd dust and pas problem in the Plant,and that is where our efforts have been. The Workments Compensation Board have not made a ruling, to mv knowledge, as yet. 0 3 •. 0 '= J

May 21, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 723 NC - 2 MR.

ROBERTS: Your Honour, -whether the illness is work induced and thus compensable or not. for them, 1 gather their Medical Advisers are going into it I have only had one person come to see me and that was a young gentleman about twenty-five I guess who told me that he had two problems - one was that he had become ill as a result of being at the Plant in Long Harbour and the second problem was that nobody would pay any attention to him~ I heard him out and I said; nwell, if you would let me have the evidence, some evidence to go on, I will have it looked into for you and let you know what I find and see what steps should be taken." He said; nwell,the only person who has paid any attention to me"{he named the physchiatrist: in SL John's)!!

I said; n oh, what did he tell you'" He said; 11 he told me I needed some physchiatric treatment,1 1 I said; "what happened?" He said; "he is going to look after me, 0 I said; 11 that is fine! 11 I am concerned, 1 think that if there is worry about the ERCO Plant, thnt if there is any hard evidence at all, I want to know so I can hav~ it looked into. Now the other point I would make perhaps on this industrial health matter is this - there has been I think great confusion in the minds of everybody as to who was responsible for what with respect to the health of workmen.

Long Harbour is a problem but I can tell Your Honour that St. Lawrence is a continuing concern~ The Asbestos Mines at Baie Verte, you know aSbestosis must be guarded against. The Iron Ore Concentrating Plant in Labrador City, there are dust problems that must be watched fOr there. My colle~r,uc; the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources,and I have come to an agreement, our officials are now working it out, the basic pattern of dernarc.ntion will be :the Department of Health will set the standards~ The Department of Health from time to time checks the standards to make sure that they are being observed.

In a mine operation it will be the Department of Mines that does the monitoringt depending on individual arrangements~ In an industrial situ:.1tion, I gather it will be my 0\...'11 officials who will supervise: .;;:L'i1

May 21, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 723 NC - 3 MR. ROBERTi~ the monitoring. That is why ve put the token for Industrial Health in again this year~ The Government of Canada,through the Occupational Health Division of the Canada Department of Health and Welfare, have agreed not only to help us with information and advice but I gather to make available to us some of their personnel.for a fairly lengthy period~ because that is what we need~ It is a problem. It is an area in which not enough has been done in Newfoundland.

I think that we are now at the point where we can take the steps we need~ But certainly I can speak for the Government wheri I say that if there is any indication by any industry or that in any industry, there are bad conditions and if they will not be corrected by the indUstry concerned then we will not hesitate to take the appropriate steps. Last summer when I got the report from Mr~ Ross and I sent for Mr.

LaPierrier and other officials of ERCO and gave it to them they said; 1 \ihat are you going to do; what happens if we do not1" nwell," 1 said; 11 tcy me~ 11 They :said; "well 1 ,,e are prepared to do what is recommended," I saidi 11 fine 1 there will be no probl,·m. 11 But Your Honour, this whole area of industrial health is one to which the public must pay more attention. It will require I think fairly large sums of money, $25 thousand or $50 thousand a year~ I think we should be doing it.

We only have a token in here now and if the Committe approve it, it is authority for us to go ahead and set it upo I have no idea what the costs will be because I have no idea of the availability of the personnel. I think we have now resolved the jurisdictional disputes and issues and answers and we are now in a position where we can go ahead. Finally on the ERCO one - I have no evidence,again, that the ERCO Plant produces any menace to health.

I have seen a number of statements but I have had no evidence and I do hope 1 Your Honour, if any member of the Committee or if any person to whom knowledge of the Committee 1 s proceedings may come, ~ny-such person knows of any problem c~used by or·related to the conditions in that or any other Plant, I ;,;332

Hay 21, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 723 NC - 4 MF. ROBERTS: want to kno~ about it so I can take the necessary steps to set it straight~ COLLINS: The Newfoundland Federation of Labour seems to me to be n pretty responsible group of people and if they made those allegations, certainly that must warrant an investigation by the Minister's Department. MR. RO~ERTS: I do not quarrel with the fact that the Federation of Labour are responsible people.

I said that we are constantly checking that Plant~ But I would hope that the Federation would send me or my colle§gue, the Minister of Labour, or both of us, the information of the people of the Plant who are getting sick and frequently vomitting blood. I do not know their names~ I have no way to know. But the Federation must have that information; this is on what they base their statement. If,they could let me have that information, they do not have to send it publicly, they could send it privately. These are individual patients. I do not want to know their - but I must know so I can start following it up.

The one person who has come to see me about it, a young gentli~an, as I said, I think is now on the way towards getting his problems resolved. The hon. gentleman for St~ John's West knows of several~ I do hope he will give me the information. I am sure he will. I will have it looked into and I can assure the Committee that whatever needs to be done to protect the health of workmen will be done~ MR CROSBIE: (Inaudible) •••••••• As far as the opinion of the men is concerned. I had two people in to see me - one connected with the Plant and the other connected with the industry not the Department.

They have given me the opinion that the working conditions there are as I have described them~ Employees have been laid off due to the fact that they have to work in those conditions~ There is a lot of smoke and gas, a lot of water in the furnace room.on the floor,and the Federation of Labour says much the same thing in their brief. Now, if I can persuade any of these gentlemen to let me use their names. I am quite prepared to write the Minister or have them visit the Minister. ~3~3

May 21, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 723 llC - 5 MR. CROSBIE: The trouble is 1 Mr~ Chainnan, that when people are working in a Plant like that, they are torn between two conflicting things- one is that they want to keep their jobs. Even though they do not like the atmosphere they are working under, they have got to eat and their families have got to eat. They have to look after their families. One is that they want to keep their jobs and the other is that if the men, if they let their names be known, they are going to be known as trouble makers, and they are going to be gotten rid of.

There are lots of ways you can be gotten ofE You can be laid off for all kinds of reasons that may look legitimate. You will never be able to prove it was you complained about working conditions~ because So it is not easy to get them to come forward to give their names. The hon. Minister says that they have a union down there~ Well I would now like to ask the union, the United Stee: Workers, who represent the men at the Long Harbour Plant and particularly the Executive of the local there and Mr.

Parsons, our International representative,to come forward and see the Minister and tell them what they consider the Rituation to bee Consulting Mr. P?rsons will be the Executive of the union local~ They must be aware of it and obviously the Labour Federation, what they have in their brief here, must be information given by United Steel Workers. So I feel it is up to them, and it is up to the Minister to check out what they have alleged in their brief. Now they suggested in their brief that there should be a rtoctor on the location* I do not know if that is necessary or not.

Nurnher two there are not adequate treatment facilities at the ERCO Plant, that is easy to check on to see if there are adequate treatment facilities there~ They say that the transport of phosphorus by tankers is not being done in a safe way and they say people at the Plant are getting sick and frequently vomitting blood. Well this is the labour authorities who put that in their tirief and obviously the Minister can ask them: 11 .. ho are these people at the Plant that you say have gotten sick and are vomitting blood7H MR._ RORERTS: Inaudible.

May 21, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 723 NC - 6 MR. CROSBIE: Right. I think the Minister should also ask them privat,ly. They say the situation requires an investigation by the Minister of Heal th and the ~inister of Labour. 1 would like to see such an investigation carried out, whether or not the 1.:nion local asks for it, and that is all we can do is raise the issue.

If I get any more information I will certainly let the Minister have it4 With regard to 1052-02 (01), would the Minister get us some information on the Hospital for Mental and Nervous Diseases - what the position will be when the extension is completed. MR. 'ROBERTS: We are not quite to the subhead. I will be back in a second. You can carry on. I can hear outside,Your Honour~ MR. CROSBIE: The ~_inister, by the way, has not forgotten the per capita costs of Medicare. He was going to get it~ With regard to 1061-04 (01), Hospital Insurance,Mr.

Chairman, and the Vote is $33 million for hospitals not operated by Government and $7,770,000 fot hospitals operated by Government of which there is a recovery from Ottawa of approximately - well it appears n~w to be a Federal contribution of $23 million, just over fifty per cent. Now I believe that the payments to the International Grenfell Association Hospitals are made through this Vote~ So this would be the proper place to discuss the International Grenfell Association Hospitals. In the last several days I have had complaints from residents of Happy Valley, that they are very dissatisfied - MR.

ROH!'RTS: Is the hon. gentleman referring to a telegram, copies of which have r;one - MR. CR_Q,SBIE: This is a telegram of May 21, from Ross 1 G. St. John~ MR. ~ORERTS: Yes he sent me a copy. He sent the Premier a copy. He sent - HR. CROSBIE: Well I understand that the people in the Happy Valley area, Goose Bay - Happy Valley area are very dissatisfied with the present situation - the Hospital in Happy ValleY,which is operated by the International Grenfell Association. I believe (this has only been on the telephone) that

Hay 19, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 723 NC - 7 !!R. CROSRIE: they claim that. there are inadequate resources, over-worked and under-paid staff, that there 3.re inadequate resources and equipment. That there needs to be an investigation to inform the Government what action is required. They say thnt their Member has advised them to take action through proper channels. Captain Earl Winsor, Provincial representative, claims lack of knowledge of situation. The previously promised medical survey in trying to take action has submitted the so called O proper channels 11.

The alleged suffering of the people and children of Labrndor: Mr~ Ambrose Peddle offer full support. It is a matter of life and death~ They have asked the Minister for his immediate assistance. Now I do not know too much about what their complaint is except they r.ny that the Hospital there is inadequately staffed~ There are not sufficient doctors and people cannot get proper medical care when it is required. Of course the Minister is r.mch more familiar with this situation than we are. I think it was also suggested to me that in some cases the patient had to be taken down to St. Anthony to receive treatment~ MR.

ROBERTS: The Regional Centre~ MR. C~OS~,n:: It: is the Regional Centre. As the Minister knows ,now that the airport is not paved yet, Dr~ Thomas says that he has been promised it is goin~ to be upgraded and pnved by the Federal Government this year and next ycnr. HR. B._02!.!~RTS: Mr~ Jamieson has told Dr. Thomas that. HR. _<::_R!!,~'._BIE: But that is not the case yet and :in the Spring, as the }!inister knows, the airport is not usuable. MR. R.,~n.rrrfs: It is usuable again now. MR.

CROSBIE: Yes,right, in the present stage of our weather it is usuahle~ So in any event they seem to be very upset in the Happy Valley area, Would the ~finister tell us i,.;hat this is all about a.nd what he thinks ahnut it?

May 21, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 723 NC - 8 MR. ROBERTS: I would be delighted to,Mr. Chairman. First of nll Mr. St~ John's telegram, copies of which he told me ha