Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 64 (29th Legislature, 5th Session)

29-5-64

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2: 30 o'clock, Monday , April 16, 1973 Opening Prayer by Mr . Speaker . ·INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 1763 MR . SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have as my guests 14 French students , from France . These students are under the direction of Mr . Lacena. On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today . I should also like to indicate they are hosted by Glenlawn Collegiate . We also have 75 students of Grade 5 standing of the Allard School These students are under the direction of Mr .

Pratt , Mrs. Berntt and Mrs. Fuellbrandt . This School is located in the Co nstituency of the Honourable Member for Assiniboia. On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier)(Ros smere): Mr . Speaker, it's not every day that we have the occasion to have as guests here young students from another country of the world , another continent.

C ' est pourquoi M. le president je voudrais souhaiter a tous les eleves des ecoles de la France, bienvenue , comme j'a i dis deja, mais pas souvent, au contraire c'est une occasion tr'es rare que nous avons. l 'occasion d 'avoir ici le s invites des ecoles d 'un autre paye du monde . A tous les eleves ici encore une fois, de la part de tous les deputes ici nos meilleur s voeux. TRANSLATION: This is why, Mr . Speaker, I would like to wish all the students from the schools in France, welcome .

Like I have already said, but not too often, it is a rare occasion that we have the opportunity to have as our guests students from schools in France . To all the students here, once again, on behalf of all the honourable members I extend our best wishes . MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions ; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills . The Honourable Member for Osborne . INTRODUC TION OF BILLS MR . IAN TURNBULL (Osborne) introduced Bill No. 19 the Disclosure of Interest Act .

ORA L QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR . SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Opposition)(River Heights): My question is to the First Minister . I wonder if he can indicate to the House what concrete plan the government has for decentralization of government departments in rural and northern Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well , Mr .

Speaker, there has been some indication from time to time from the different departments, statements by different Ministers indicating the extent to which we are attempting to proceed apace with decentralization of government services. I believe, for example, that the Minister of Health , has several weeks ago made an announce ment with respect to the decentralization of the regional offices of the Department of Health and Social Development . I believe the Minister of Municipal Affairs has m_ade some state ment with respect to -- perhaps he hasn't yet, I'd better just hold that in abeyance for a moment .

May I then say to my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition , that there will be announcements in due course; and furthermore , Sir, there will be further light shed on that I think in the course of the next week . MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister can indicate whether any group of civil servants have been charged with responsibility to determine what government departments can be in fact decentralized into rural and northern Manitoba? MR . SCHREYER: Mr .

Speaker, this is really being analyzed on two levels: one is the policy level, and then with respect to the, sort of logistics information that is needed to make policy decisions, we have been of cour se through the various departments' Deputy Ministers and certain persons in Planning Priorities making systematic analysis of this. MR . SPIVAK: To the First Minister , Mr . Speaker . I wonder if he can indicate whether any group of civil servants have been given any instructions by the government for a program

1764 April 16 , 1973 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR . SPIVAK cont 'd): . . . . . or plan of decentral ization of government services in rural and northern Manitoba? MR . SCHREYER : Well , Mr . Speaker, yes, in a sense this has been done over the course of the past years . There has been instructions with respect to Health and Social Development flowing through the Minister of Health and Social Development . The same with respect to Agriculture and the same with respect to Municipal Affairs. MR .

SPIVAK: Well I wonder if we can then take it from the First Minister's remarks that in fact there is neither a task force nor there is an interdepartmental committee of civil servants working on decentralization of government services? MR . SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, there has been work done on this in the way in which I have already outlined about two supplementary questions ago . Also, I can indicate there have been informal committees, cabinet sub-committees, official sub-committees working on this, and therefore the answer in a nutshell to my honourable friend is yes. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party . MR . I. H. (Izzy) ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party )(Wolseley) : Mr . Speaker, to the First Minister. My question is, does the government have any studies or estimates of figures indicating the rural to urban migration numbers in Manitoba over any period of time ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker , that information can be obtained and is available in two ways .

One is from some of the more specific catalogues that are issued by Statistics Canada and then there are, I think perhaps , even more refined figures perhaps available through the Departments of the Province of Manitoba, through the Manitoba Statistics office for one. MR . ASPER: To the First Minister, Mr . Speaker . Has the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics conducted any study that would in co mprehensive form tell the government, or tell the public, what the rural to urban migration pattern has been in numbers? MR . SC HREYER: Well , Mr . Speaker , here again there is more than one svurce of information available .

There is for example what I believe was very good work carried out by the continuing program secretariat of planning priorities a couple of years ago, as a result of which by using administrative records of the Manitoba Health Services Commission for example , a very complete population ana lysis was made and compiled according to various categories of age, group distribution , sex distribution , rural and urban distribution and so on and so forth.

Then in addition to that , there )1as been through the Department of Industry and Commerce a regional analysis program carried out in considerable depth having to do with all of the economic indices of the various rural regions , including population patterns. So that information is available as well . MR . ASPER : To the First Minister. I wonder would the First Minister table or make available in comprehensive form to the House the pattern so that we are able to debate or discuss its programs. MR . SCHREYER: Well , Mr .

Speaker, I could be mistaken on this but it's my distinct impression that the Manitoba Hospital Services Co mmission detail population data has been released and was released a year ago, and in addition to that, the regional analysis program material, all of it, was also distributed through the aegis of the Department of Industry and Commerce. However I'll check further to see if that isn't so. While I'm up on my feet, Mr . Speaker, I would like to table Volume 2 of Guidelines for the Seventies, under the general heading of "Social Goods and Services." MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupert sland . MR.

JEAN AL:;:.ARD (Rupertsla nd): Mr . Speaker , I have a question for the First Minister. Will the government consider making the amounts, interest rates of loans from Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation as well as the name of the recipients a matter of public knowledge in the same way as the loans from the MDC are public knowledge now? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr . Speaker, that change was made with respect to the indus trial loans through the MDC , and the same general principle it could' be argued ought to be applicable with respect to agricultural credit as well .

However , I believe as the Minister of Agriculture has already indicated, there is need to have some further deliberation on this to attempt to get some consensus of view in that respect and we hope that it will be possible to

April 16 , 1973 1765 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR . SCHREYER cont'd) ..... come to some conclusion and announcement thereon 'in a relatively short period of time . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan . Order , please . The Honourable Member for Rupertsland have a supplementary? MR . ALLARD : I have another question for the First Minister, Mr . Speaker, but not a supplementary to that one. MR . SPEAKER : Proceed. MR . ALLARD: For the First Minister.

Is it government policy to introduce a bill at some future date before civic elections that would change the City of Winnipeg Act to allow the election of the Mayor by the public at large? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Well , Mr . Speaker, I did indicate on Friday last what government policy was in that respect and if there is some specific aspect oi that that is not clear to my honourable friend I will try to elucidate on it. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan . POINT OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr .

Speaker, I wish to rise on a point of personal privilege dealing with an allegation made by the Member for Morris outside the House and reported in the Winnipeg Tribune of Friday, April 13-- a day which may prove to have been unluck y for the Member for Morris. This report read and I quote "The Eofford affair continued to dominate the sitting, after question period, with Mr . Jorgenson at one point shouting back fiercely at Deputy Speaker William Jenkins, and at another citing examples of what he called nepotism in the government.

Mun.icipal Affairs Minister Howard Pawley's father is on the Manitoba Municipal Board, he said; Speaker Peter Fox's father works in the Legislature building, and so does Mr . Jenkens' father . "I would ask the honourable member to withdraw that last remark," said Mr. Jenkins. "My father died in the year 1969 ." lWr. Jenkins was in the Chair at the time as the House was in committee for the final 25 minutes of debate on the Agricultural Department 's estimates, which were passed. "Outside the House, Mr . Jorgenson said he had meant to refer to Mr .

Jenkins' father in-law." I wish to inform this Assembly, Sir, the Winnipeg Tribune and, above all, the Member for Morris, that my father-in-law -- whom I never had the pleasure of meeting -- died in the City of Lancaster, Lancashire, England, in the year 1936 - 10 years before I met and married my wife in England in 1946 while serving with the Canadian army overseas. My wife's father , during his lifetime, never set foot out of England .

Also for the record , Sir, I would like to poir1t out that the only time my own father - also wr ongfully accused by the Member for Morris -- was an employee of any government was during the Great War of 19 14 to 1918 when he served his country with the "Little Black Devils" in France. If this be nepotism, Mr . Speaker , it was nepotism of which he, along with hundreds of thousands of others, was justifiably proud . My father died a few days before his Slst birthday in October , 1969 , after being gravely ill in Deer Lodge Military Hospital for five years .

The ill-considered and unprincipled accusations of the Member for Morris against deceased member s of my family have caused much grief to my mother, who is an elderly widow bravely carrying on without the support of her bel oved hu sband, and also to my wife, who is going into hospital tomorrow . The cruel and untrue accusations of the Member for Morris strike a new low in the deliberations of any governing assembly in Canada .

Any member who would thus crucify bereaved women by publicly defaming their deceased loved ones, without even attempting to ascertain if his allegations are valid, and completely without regard for the feelings of all innocent parties, most certainly does not deserve public trust and there should be no place in our legislatures for such despicable creatures . However, this seems to be the method of character assassination favoured by the Member for Morris, who hurls dirt in all directions hoping some of it will stick. The Member

1766 April 16, 1973 PRIVILEGE (MR . JENKINS cont'd) .... . for Morris is not noted for his veracity, and as House Leader for the Honourable Members of the Official Opposition , it is indeed unfortunate for them that the lack of credibility and gutter tactics of the Member for Morris can only reflect in the worse light on the Progressive Co nservative Party . MR . BOROWSKI: Mr . Speaker , I rise on a point of privilege. MR . SPEAKER: Order , please. The Honourable Member for Thompson state his point of order . MR . JOSEPH P.

BO ROWSKI (Thomp son) : Ye s, my point of order is that the member got up to make a correction, a proper one I believe, but the member --(lnterjection) -- MR . SPEAKER: Order , please . The Honourable Member for Thompson state his point of order . MR . BOROWSKI: ... the member stood up to make a correction that wa s reported in the paper . He has made his correction and now he has launched into a speech and I am wonder ing if that is proper , Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The honourable member is stating a matter of his personal privilege which we are entitled to hear . The Honourable Member for Logan . MR .

JENKINS: The entire, infamous incident seems to be part of the personal vendetta that is being waged against you,Mr . Speaker , the Speaker of this House.and myself by the Member for Morris, who has threatened to bring in a motion of censure against you, Mr . Speaker, and myself. I suggest to ycu , Mr . Speaker , and Honourable Members of this House, that any motion of censure that is br ought in this House should be brought against the Member for Morris himself, for degrading the proceedings of this Assembly to its lowest point in its history .

I, therefore, Sir, through your office, ask that this Assembly rectify the false allegations made against myself and member s of my family on the charge of nepotism . I also request that the Honourable Member for Morris make a public retraction and apology for these charges made inside and outside this House, both to the As sembly here and also in the media . This is the very least that can be expected of a member who has shamed the proceedings of this Legislature to such a degree .

If the Member for Morris has any spark of manhood left in him , he should also make a written apology to my wife and my mother for causing unnecessary suffering by his false allegations against those loved ones long dead and in their graves. I also wish at this time, Mr . Speaker , to draw the attention of this Chamber to the lack of objectivity of the Winnipeg Tribune in the reporting of this matter .

The remark made by the Member for Morris outside this House about my father-in- law was not checked out either by the Tribune reporter or the city desk editor of the Winnipeg Tr ibune to determine the validity of this further charge -- made by one who, in the House , had just given ample proof of his lack of veracity . We can only hope that the Winnipeg Tribune will practice a better type of objective reporting in the forthcoming provincial election . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr .

Speaker, I have 110 hesitation at this time and I did at the time that I made the statement - and I might add, Sir, that the statements that I have made were made in this House not outside; aU of the statements I made in connection with this matter were made in this House . And my honourable friend heard them . I apologized then, I have no hesitation in offering a further apology to my honourable friend for the improper identification that I made in the House at that time . I want to assure him that I withdraw that allegation completely and I apologize abjectly for what I have done.

I want to go further , Sir, to ensure that the identification in the future will be correct, that I intend to introduce an Order for Return which will enable the government to properly identify those people. Thank you. ORAL QUESTIONS cont'd MR . SPEAKER: Oral Questions . The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR . J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr . Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the First Minister relative to the questions that were some moments ago posed by my leader in regard to decentralization.

I'd like to ask the First Minister if the decentralization of gover11- ment activities will apply to Autopac , will the right to sell Autopac be returned to those agencies

April 16, 1973 1767 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. WATT cont 'd). . . . . who have lost the right to sell Autopac since it came into being? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know what the connection might be, but my honourable friend should be aware - I'd like to make my honourable friend aware - that the determination with respect to the agencies for the sale of Autopac was determined by a Transi tional Assistance Board, among others, and I believe that priority went to all those. who met the criteria with respect to volume of sales in previous year, percentage dependency of live lil>.ood on such commercial activity etc. And the matter has been dealt with by the Minis ter of Municipal Affairs on a number of occasions in the past year or two. MR. WATT: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask the First Minister then a supplementary question. Is it not a fact that longstanding agencies throughout the Province of Manitoba in cases have lost the right -- or that agency has lost the right to sell Autopac because the agency has changed hands ? MR. SCHREYER: I'm not sure I un derstand the question fully , perhaps the Minister of Municipal Affairs would want to deal with it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. HOWARD R. PA WLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs)(Selkirk): Mr.

Chairman, where an agency sells that was registered to sell Autopac, then that agency that purchases that agency, subject to the approval qf the management of Autopac itself, is generally assigned to the new purchaser if it's an actual sale of the agency to a new purchaser. I don't know the drift of the honourable member's question because that is the practice. MR. SPEAK ER : The Honourable Member for Roblin. Order please. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: To the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Is it not a fact that agencies that - (Interjection)-- I am not arguing, Mr.

Speaker, I'm asking a direct question. Is it not a fact that the right to sell Autopac has been withdrawn from longstanding agencies that have been sold and are being operated under a new name? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PAWL EY: Mr. Speaker, I know of no such instance. There may be that there are instances which the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation would not approve in the sale.

But I can tell the honourable member that there are many instances where there - not many but a number of instances where there have been sales of agencies and approval has been received from the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation for the new purchaser to assume ownership of that agency. Right off hand, I can think - I'm trying to think of the honourable member's constituency -- I know that there's an instance in Melita I believe where there ha:s been approval given to the sale of an agency there and the assumption by purchaser to that agency.

If the honourable member wants to refer to some specific instance I will check it out. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. How many agents have been denied the right to sell Autopac in the past 12 months? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR . McKENZIE: Grandview, Grandview for one . . . MR. PA WLEY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know of any such instance.

The honourable member makes reference to Gran dview and I'm glad he's mentioned Grandview because I can then deal specifically with the question raised. In the instance of Grandview there was no sale of an agency to a purchaser, an agent did decide to opt out in the case of Grandview. There was no purchase of that agency.

Sub sequently, a party requested approval from Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation to be license d as an agent in Grandview but there are already two agents in the Town of Grandview providing, I understand, excellent service and the information which would seem to prevail is that in order to appoint a third agent would not be doing justice to the two agents there at the present time. MR. McKENZIE: A supplementary question Mr. Speaker. Do the other two agents have other occupations besi des selling insurance? MR. PAWL EY: I suspect they do.

Let me tell the honourable member that most rural agents, by far a vast majority of rural agents have some other form of occupation outsi de of the

1768 April 16, 1973 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) .... selling of insurance. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin, last supplementary. MR. McKENZIE: Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Then does the agent who made application for Autopac only sell insurance? A MEMBER: What difference does that make .. . . ? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, if he would relate back to the answer which I gave earlier, there is no policy to appoint new agents unless it can be clearly shown that there can be an improved service to the people in a particular community by the addition of new agents; and this has been done where that is clearly shown. But we certainly would be open to criticism I think if we went into different communities and started appointing additional agents in excess of that which is required for optimum service. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. My question is: have all the claims for expropriation been finalized in the Recla Island area? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (Minister of Tourism and Recreation and Cultural Affairs)(St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, it's a while since I looked into it, I'll have to take that as notice. MR. PA TRICK: Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry I did not give the Honourable Minister notice. Perhaps he can also take, how many are still outstanding. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR.

JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, thank you very much. I have a question for the First Minister. In his recent reference in Hansard and also to the press to do with the John Deere Company, did his comments include the problem of the former Swan River John Deere agent, Holland? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I certainly did not refer to any specific dealer because I just don't believe it's wise policy to do so.

And furthermore, I am advised that there may be some civil litigation current in that respect so I hesitate to say anything more about the matter; except to advise my honourable friend that approximately three years ago there was some specific indication at the time that there were difficulties in that dealer, but not only that dealer other dealers as well, in their dealings with the John Deere Company. But whether or not those have been satisfactorily resolved I'm not in a position to say at this time. MR. BILTON: I thank the First Minister. He will recall that I was involved in that matter too.

I have a further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. It is my understanding that the statements that the First Minister put forward last week and also in Hansard, has put the $250, OOO John Deere Company stock and equipment of the present . . . MR. SPEAKER: Question, please. MR. BILTON: ... John Deere Swan River agent in jeopardy. The question Mr. Speaker, is, is it the Premier's intention to reduce the activities of John Deere Company and its agents throughout Manitoba? MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, one thing I am confident of, is that nothing I said the other day in that regard could possibly in any way negatively affect any John Deere dealer. As to the attitude of John Deere itself that is another question. But, Sir, the second part of the question asking whether the Government of Manitoba has any intention to legislate or deal specifically with John Deere as such, the answer is negative. It would not be proper, as my honourable friend well knows, it would not be proper to deal in that fashion with a particula r corporation or individual. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River last supplementary. MR. BILTON: I have a supplementary Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the First Minister would favour me with the thought of communicating with the John Deere agent in Swan River and get his feelings at the present time? MR. SCHREYER: It's a novel suggestion, Mr. Speaker. I have no hesitation about doing so if it'll help my honourable friend. I still insist, Sir, that nothing I said could negatively disadvantage whoever the current dealer i.s, whether it was the person who was

April 16, 1973 1769 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) .•... there in 1970 or someone new. A MEMBER: Or even Bilton. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. Would his proposed inclusion within the Health Services of eyeglasses and hearing aids involve any deterrent fees? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Development )(Springfield): Mr.

Speaker, I was expressing thoughts to a reporter on what has happened over the last four years pertaining to activities and services within the department of Health and Social Develop ment and at no time did I mention the possibility in the future of the deterrent fees, that this, as the honourable member is quite aware, is subject to government policy. MRS. TRUEMAN: I have a further question for the same Minis ter. Is the government considering regulation of price and quality in the hearing aid or eyeglass deal? MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, we are looking into the quality of the service pertaining to eyeglasses, hearing aids and so on, but pertaining to regulations and controls, that's some thing that would again have to be decided by government policy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, last week the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition asked a question which I took as notice, that had to do with the main reasons for the increase in the cost of living index, the consumer basket so-caned, for the City of Winnipeg.

The information that has been provided to me is that the increase of 2 .1 percent in the health and personal care category which was the main attributable category, was chiefly due to higher women's hairdressing and men's haircut prices as well as increased prices in certain pharmaceuticals and toiletries. That is the information provided, it can be checked further. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. ALLARD: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Resources.

I wonder whether the Minister could tell us what kind of advice he got from his department on the question of possible early opening of the angling season? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. HON. SIDNEY GREEN Q.C. (Minister of Mines Resources and Environmental Man� agement)(Inkster): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I was in touch with the departmental personnel in this connection and I have been advised that the low water this year would overcome any possible advantage in terms of spawning that may have been occasioned by the early spring; and that because of the low water situation, they don't recommend anything being done which would not ensure the greatest opportunity for productive spawning. I am also advised that the area that the honourable member refers to extends north past the 53rd Parallel and that in that particular area there is still cooler water.

Well, the honourable member is shaking his head, I know that he's talking about an area which is primarily in southern Manitoba but the area which he refers to does extend north of 53 and there would be problem. However, that would not be insurmountable, of dividing the area at the present time. But that's not the main reason for their negative advice in this connection. The negative advice is based on the fact that the low water is a disadvantage and therefore that nothing be done which would in any way endanger the possibility of a productive spawning season. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland have a supplementary? MR. ALLARIJ: No, I have a question for the Minister of Northern Affairs. Could the Minister advise the House whether the replacement for his very able deputy Minister, Mr. Bob Wallace, who is leaving for the Ottawa seat, is going to be his ADM, Mr. Orval Strong? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. RON McBRYD E (Minister of Northern Affairs)(The Pas): Mr.

Speaker, the Premier and myself have received a letter of resignation from my present Deputy Minister, who as the member said is a very able senior civil servant in Manitoba. He has taken what would be in administrative circles a promotion to a very important position in Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, I had hoped before it was made public that the present deputy had accepted a position that we would be able to have arrived at a replacement for him. But this not being

1770 April 16, 1973 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) .. ... possible, Mr. Speaker, the matter of the next deputy minister is still under consideration and I have no further comment at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. ALLARD: Could he confirm that the Minister is considering the possibility of having one residenced in the north? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the policy of the government in the Department of Northern Affairs is for decentralization of various departments into rural and northern Manitoba and Mr. Speaker, this will certainly be considered. I might also mention, Mr. Speaker, that there was one MLA who expressed some interest in the position, one who probably won't be running again and sits as an Independent. I don't believe he's on the list of those being consid ered. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. Order, please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland state his matter of privilege. MR.

ALLARD: I want it understood that the Honourable Minister was laughing and making a joke when he stated that . MR. SPEAKER: Not a matter of privilege. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. Order, please. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. CY GONICK (Crescentwood): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Resources. It regards a statement that was made recently by the new president of McKenzie Seed, Anthony Maruca. Does the Government of Manitoba agree with the proposal of the president of McKenzie Seecis to sell shares to the public? MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, to be entirely fair to Mr. Maruca I would note that the honourable member is reading from a press report as to what Mr. Maruca said-- I'm not certain what Mr. Maruca did say. I know that McKenzie Seeds is only associated with me through the Manitoba Development Corporation being involved in some financing or some guarantors. May I say, Mr. Speaker, that the public now owns McKenzie Seeds and that any sale to the public would dilute the public's interest in McKenzie Seeds. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Perhaps, Mr.

Speaker, I might indicate to the Member for Crescent wood that the operation of McKenzie Seeds is pursuant to statute law that was passed some several years. There's a certain endowment trust arrangement. I would have to check, but it's my impression that it is not a simply straightforward decision that could be taken to so do. There may well have to be, even if that were the desire, there would have to be certain changes made by way of statute amendments. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture.

I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Agriculture could for our informa tion indicate under what specific legislative authority the new super board or whatever board he wishes to call it, that will regulate or act within the pork industry between Saskatchewan and Manitoba was set up? HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture)(Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, all of the marketing boards operate under the Natural Products Marketing Act of both provinces and the legal arrangement relate to that legislation. MR. ENNS: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, for further clarification.

Is it the Manitoba Marketing Board Act that the minister has used to set up this board? MR. USKIW: It's the Natural Products Marketing Act, Mr. Speaker, in both provinces. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside, last supplementary. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct another question to the Minister of Agriculture. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister can indicate at what time he would be able to supply the House with the terms of reference or regulations that will govern this new body, such matters as the matter of appointment, terms of appointment and other regulations pertaining to this board. MR.

USKIW: Mr. Speaker, in due course we will have information made available to my friends opposite. MR. ENNS: A final supplementary question to the one I just asked, Mr. Speaker. Can

April 16. 1973 1771 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. ENNS cont'd) ..... the Minister at this time give us assurances that the Producer Board which is just now coming into being, that is elected Producers Board of the Manitoba Hog Marketing Producers Board, will not in any way have its authority superseded by the creation of this new board? MR. USKIW: No, Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that the two respective provincial boards have the authority with respect to this particular aspect of hog marketing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I had a supplementary question to the Minister of Health and Social Development before the Premier interrupted some time ago , and I'd like to ask it now. Is the government considering going into competition with private business in the area of hearing aids and eyeglasses? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, I thought I answered the honourable member awhile ago when I said that the government is looking into all types of health services and the quality of same. I did not say that we were having to compete with anyone. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR.

DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Resources. Can he advise whether his department is involved in the pipeline trenching trials that are going on at Churchill? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take the question as notice. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. I wonder if the Minister could advise whether the Manitoba Government or the Manitoba Energy Council have had discussions with Pan Arctic Oil recently to bring us up-to-date on any plans for northern transport of natural gas? MR.

GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice as well, and I would indicate that the Minister of Industry and Comm erce would be the one responsible for the Energy Board, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Attorney General, and ask him if the Liquor Control Commission have issued tenders for the transport ing of supplies to the outlets in the Province of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. A.H. MACKLING, Q.C. (Attorney-General)(St. James): I'm not aware of such, Mr.

Speaker, I'll take the question as notice. MR. JORGENSON: I should like to direct a question to the First Minister, and ask him if he was quoted correctly in the paper of April 14th when he stated that Mr. Allard 's bill, he said, will have the same fate as all private members' bills either here or in the Parliament of Canada. And early in that same report he stated that the fate of those private members' bills is that they just never reached conclusion. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SC HREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I indicated on Friday what the policy of the government was in that respect, that insofar as the point under consideration is concerned the answer is affirmative, and that is unequivocal and I hope it's clear. Insofar as the fate of private members' bills, I think the Member for Morris knows perhaps --well, better than anyone else here what that fate usually is. MR. JORGENSON: I should like to ask a supplementary question. Does that mean that no private members' bills regardless of the merit will be passed by this House? MR. SCHREYER: No, Mr. Speaker.

On the other hand, my honourable friend the Member for Morris knows full well, quoting from his days when he was p:;irliamentary sec retary, that any private bill that would complicate or obscure, or make more difficult a course of action of policy determined by government would usually be dealt with by way of extende·d debate and consideration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the Minister of Health and Social Development.

Is it the intention of his department to supply the drug requirements, including prescriptive drugs, of nursing homes directly through his department as opposed to the normal retail drug channels which now supply them?

1772 April 16, 1973 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, the way I read the new program, it will definitely be part of both. In many cases now the supply of drugs to patients within personal care facilities are being made available through the channels of Care Services and I see no reason why we could not continue the same practice in the future of having drugs suppJ'.ied by private sources and/or indirectly by the Department of Health and Social Development. MR. McGILL: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker.

Has the committee preparing a list of drugs that can be substituted under the new Pharmacare laws completed its work? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, the committee appointed are still considering and preparing their list. The study is not completed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister offer the House an expected time of completion? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, I wish I could. If I could make this information available to the House, I'd make it-available to the committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR.

McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable the Minister of Health. Compulsory ID cards were announced by the Executive Director in Brandon last week . Is that government policy? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, no employee of mine to my knowledge has announced a compulsory ID card. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Labour. Has the Minimum Wage Board completed its. hearing and will the Minister be tabling its report in the House - to the members? HON.

RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Transcona): Mr. Speaker, in reply to my honourable friend, it is my understanding that hearings have been held and that the Minimum Wage Board will be making a report to me this week. And on receipt of that it will be my intention to disclose the action that this government will take, as. quickly as possible. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commence. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce)(Brandon East): Yes, Mr. Speaker, a few days ago the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party asked a question about television advertising for the MDC.

The question was put to the Minister resp0nsible who checked it out and denied there was such advertising; the question was then redire cted to myself and the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party said in Hansard: "In view of the fact that I and at least a dozen others have with our own eyes witnessed and heard the advertising facilities of the Manitoba Development Corporation in urging people to go into debt by borrowing therefrom, will the Minister inform this House" -- and the Minister referred to at this point is myself -- "whether he knows of or authorized an advertising program on television whereby MDC outlines its services and encourages people to come in and borrow money." Mr.

Speaker, I replied at that time ''lmless I don't hear or see right I have no !mow ledge of such ad. " I have since checked out the advertisement, I checked the matter out very thoroughly and I'm informed, and I note that there is absolutely no reference whatsoever to the Manitoba Development Corporation. So, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that perhaps the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party and his friends are the ones who don't see or hear correctly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MAC KLING: Mr. Speaker, I just want to answer the question from the Honourable Member in Morris.

That I believe it is the practice of the Liquor Control Commission annually to put out for tender the transportation of the liquor from the central warehouse to various points in the country, and that would be the normal course I think. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: I raise a supplementary question to the Minister then. Ask him if that is not a contravention of the Public Utilities Act, which sets out the rates for trucks hauling goods and services? MR. MACKLING: I would assume, Mr. Speaker, that any tender would be in accordance

April 16, 1973 1773 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. MACKIJNG cont'd) ..... with the rates provided by the Public Utility Board, but there probably would be variations in any tender that is made, that would still allow for variation I'm sure. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Industry and Commerce. In view of the fact that there seems to be an impression abroad amongst those who saw the ad or heard the commercial, that the department ... MR. SPEAKER: Question, please. MR.

ASPER: , .. was advertising its lending in job services, would the Minister resolve the issue by tabling the script for the advertisements that were used. POINT OF ORDER MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The Honourable Member said he saw and heard certain things on television. I would suggest that when this arose in the past that the person who saw and heard produce what he saw and heard. A MEMBER: That's right. That's right. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West --(Interjection)--Order, please.

The Honourable Member for Wolseley on a point of order, state his point of order? MR. ASPER: No, Mr. Speaker, the point of order raised by the Honourable Mines Minister. There has arisen in the House a question of what was said and what the government did. The question I put to the Minister is quite in order, simply to ask him to put before all of us to resolve the issue . . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

Before we get involved in a procedural issue, let me indicate that we accept eveJ:y honc.urable member's expression in this House as being valid unless otherwise proven; and therefore since there are two opinions in this particular regard, both gentlemen are entitled to have that opinion. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. ORAL QUESTIONS cont'd MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, again to the Minister of Health and Social Development and with reference to my earlier question respecting the supplying of drugs to nursing homes.

Will this option which the Minister suggests will exist to buy directly from the government in respect to these drugs, will this become available July lst of this year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, the option is now available. MR. McGILL: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the impact which this may have upon the retail drug business, has this been discussed with Manitoba Drug Association? MR, TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, this has been in effect for many years. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the other day the Honourable the Leader of the Liberal Party had asked a question, actually re-asked a question with respect to estimates of seasonal structura: and locational unemployment and underemployment in northern Manitoba, particularly in communities of native people and related that to some estimate of 90 percent.

I undertook to find out whether a report such as he seemed to think existed, and after considerable checking it would seem that perhaps, what my honourable friend is referring is a three-page memorandum which was sort of in circulation in the Planning and Priorities Committee approximately two years ago. And on checking further it would seem that this three-page memorandum is in turn based on various statistical sources, including DBS, includ ing some provincial department and so on in the period 1965 to 1971 inclusive.

All of the figures involved are thus at least two years old, in some cases four and six years old. That's about all the help I can give my honourable friend, there is no other report that I'm aware of that deals with that kind of figure of magnitude. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister. Does the report, or the memorandum to which he refers give the data that 90. 3 percent of the native population and 42 percent of the

1774 April 16, 1973 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. ASPER cont'd). . . . . Metis population is unemployed? MR. SCHREYER: That, Mr. Speaker, is what I indicated; that this is a memorandum which was sort of in circulation and in use. for various analysis and discussion internally about two years ago and is based on DBS estimates, theoretical estimates as to structural and disaggregate unemployment as it's called among economists apparently, but those figures are anywhere from two to six years old and in various combination.

I can tell my honourable friend, as I indicated the other day, that there would be a great --well, a very substantial working down of that theoretical maximum figure by virtue of the creation of 12, 900 man-months of employment in the last six-month period, 1972 to the present. MR. ASPER: Does the government have, Mr. First Minister, any data of its own assembled to give us a current picture of native peoples' unemployment? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, this is yet another reason why the Manitoba Statistics office was created because it's a case of pulling together various statistical data and estimates that have existed hitherto·in a fragmented form and through the statistics office, utilizing Dominion Bureau of Statistics, utilizing Northern Manitoba Manpower Corps, utilizing hospital service record figures, etc. , we hope to be able to refine these figures. I might add, Sir, that the phenomena in question is one that also is to be discovered in each of the other prairie province and for that matter in northern Ontario in significant extent as well.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: To the First Minister and as a result of the answer given to the questions asked. I wonder if he can indicate whether the government does not have in their possession, or does have in their possession at least, a more recent document either prepared internally or by consultants hired by the Department of Planning and Priorities or other departments which in fact show a staggering figure of unemployment in the north? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, of course stagfering in relation to what?

Certainly the level is very unacceptable and that is why there is need for continued and greatly increased employment and job creating effort and resource space expanding effort relating to these communities. But, Sir, staggering as it may be, it is substantially better in terms of job opportunities than it was five and ten years ago. There is just no comparison, Sir. If it is staggering today it was absolutely mind boggling ten years ago. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, in view of the answer by the First Minister, I wonder if he will now table that report in the House? MR.

SCHREYER: I don't know what report my honourable friend is referring to. I gather he is referring to a report which would in a sense be an update of what my honourable friend the leader of the Liberal Party was referring to, I don't mind telling my honourable friends that we went through quite an ex ercise trying to trace down just what report the Honourable Member for Wolseley could have been referring to , and this is the only conceivable document that it. could have been and accordingly I've responded to my honourable friend. I will check again to see if there is an update. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposit ion. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, Iwonder again, I put the question so that the Honourable First Minister can take it as notice and then examine as to see whether it is in fact available to him. Has the government a more recent report, either prepared internally or by consultants, dealing with the problems of unemployment in the north? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well I will take that as notice then. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister.

I wonder if he could indicate whether the MDC or the government is involved in giving loans or grants to Indian and Metis people in Manitoba based strictly on racial origin --outside of the grants that are given to the Metis centres? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the question really does come very logically in se quence to the questions we were just dealing with a minute ago having to do with the problems of. unemployment and underemployment and welfare incidents and so on, in some of these communities that do have inadequate resource space and job opportunities; so the answer is

April 16, 1973 17 75 ORAL QU ESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) .. .. . that there have been a number of special projects and pro grams developed, inclu ding a special economic development loan fund called the Communities Economic Development Fund which was conceive d of as being one of the tools by which we could try to respon d to the challenge of reducing unemployment and underemployment in these very same communities.

It is not supposed to operate on the basis of the individual applicant 's cree d or race or ethnic origin but it is supposed to relate itself to those communities in which there is an inadequate commercial base, inadequate job opportunities and the like, and it's supposed to bridge finance to Special ARDA as it's called. So they're companion programs, Special ARDA IIIB and the bridge financing of the Communities Economic Development Fund of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson have a supplementary? MR. BOROWSKI: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I was just about to ask the question on the last point that the Premier mentioned. ARDA I believe is a Fe deral-Provincial project . I take it that he is saying that they have also federal -- is the Prov incial Government involved in a Fed eral cost-sharing project which gives preferential treatment to Indian or Metis? MR .S CHREYER: Well, Mr .

Speaker , it is true that one of the criteria, and there is - oh, there's two pages of criteria involved - but one of the criteria of the Special ARDA pro gram which is a joint Fed eral-Provincial program, exists here and in, I believe, in the other two prairie provinces.I'm not sure. One of the criteria is that a community to be within the designated area must be a community in which 50 percent or more of the population acknowledge themselves to be of native descent.

The operations of Special ARDA, it's a. separate entity from the Communities Economic Development Fund however, they work as a companion instrument one to the other . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel . MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the First Minister. Could the First Minister indicate whether or not the majority of the jobs created for native people in the north, north of 53, in the last five years cannot be attributed to the CFI project at The Pas? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend, did he say half? MR.

CRAIK : Majority. MR. SCHREYER: Majority. Well, Mr. Speaker, I certainly would concur that a signif icant number of jobs have been thus created. I would not want to concur that it is the majority of jobs because there are many other comme rcial and work activities going on such as the building of prefabricated housing and the erection thereof at Churchill . Clearing of land at the Minago River, the cutting of pulp.vood at Channel Loggers, which is not related to CFI but rather related to Abitibi.

Some hirings by Sherritt -Gordon, Northern Manpower activities have tended to generate a substantial number of jobs, alongside those created by the CFI operations. MR. CRAIK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the government could provide some numbers on the number of permanent jobs created in northern Manitoba in the last five years? MR. SCHREYE R : Mr. Speaker, when my honourable friend tells me what he means as to how permanent is permanent then it will be easier to give him some of this information. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I suppose there might be some question as to whether Hydro jobs are permanent but I assume if you categorize a job ... MR. SPEAKER: Question please? Question? MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker, my question is in answer to the First Minister's question . I would consi der permanent .. . at least . MR. SPEAKER: Question, please. Order, please. I do think that some honourable members believe they're entitled to bend the rules and I don't think that 's fair. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of lndustry and Commerce I gness who's in charge of statistics in the province. Does the Statistics Bureau of Manitoba hold any of the responsibility for the ID card concept which was announced in Brandon last Frid ay by Mr. Crawford? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics operates under the

1776 April 16, 1973 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. EVANS cont'd) ... .. Statistics Act which was passed by this Le gislature and I would not think -- in fact I'm quite certain -- that they have had nothing to do with this particular announce ment nor are they engaged in this in any way. However, I have not discussed the matter with the staff , I'm not sure whether there 's been any discussi ons but this was not part of their terms of reference, Mr. Speaker. While I'm on my feet, I'd like to correct a misimpressi o n that was reported in the media with regard to insurance rates in and out of the Po rt of Churchill.

Alth ough we have had a difficult year last year in terms of ice conditions I am advised that there will be no immediate effect on the rates, that Ll oyds of London tend to lo o k at a very long period of time in establish ing their rates. So I'd like to co rrect a misimpressi on, Mr. Speaker, that rates will rise in 1973. The fact is that there is no indicati o n that insurance rates for overseas vessel s trading into Churchill will rise in the year 1973. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr.

Speaker, I have a questi on for the Honour able the Minister of Mines and Resources. Is 'it the intentio n or is the government giving considerati on to . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. FROESE : The questi on, Mr. Speaker, is the government intending to or is it giving considerati on to re-opening the gold mine at Bissett ? MR o SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minister of Mines . MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, it is not a government mine. I understand that there are individuals in a positi o n of ownership who are giving such consideration. MR. FROESE: I also have a questi o n for the Minister of Agriculture.

Under the Hog Marketing Pr ogram announced today wherein Manitoba and Saskatchewan will be participating, are these provinces equal partners under that pr ogram and in all aspects in regard to qu otas too if they sho uld be implemented ? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minister of Agriculture. MR o USKIW: I want to assure my honourable friend that it was not a sh otgun wedding, Mr. Speaker. We are equals in that arrangement. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Member for Assin iboia. MR . PATRI CK : Mr. Speaker, my questi o n is to the Minister of Industry and Commerce .

In view of the deteriorating job situation at CAE and the request by the co-chairman of the Air Po licy Committee and my colleague and to call an air policy meeting , I wonder when will the Minister call this meeting or why hasn't he called it up to the present time ? MR. SPEAK ER : The Honourable Minister .of Industry and Commerce . MR o EVANS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have been in touch with the various people includ ing the co-chairman of the Air Po licy Committee, Mr. Hanks.

In addition we have been in touch with the company, with Federal Government officials involved and also I have instructed my staff to discuss the matter with the unions concerned. I have wired both the Minister of National Defence, the Hon ourable James Richardson and with a copy to the Minister of Transp ort pointing out the difficulty and asking what efforts are being made at this time by the Federal Government at this time to ensure a continuing regional capability in the maintenance and overhaul of the aircraft at the CAE Company Limited. MR. PATRICK: Supplementary.

Is the Minister going to call a Manitoba Air Policy Committee -- or how soon ? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the matter is being worked upon. MR 0 SPEAK ER: The Hon ourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister. The report to which he referred relative to native peoples ' unempl oyment, was it the report that I had specifically capti oned "Manp ower Target Groups and Expenditure Tables" by Paul Nickel 1972. Is that the report that he found ? MR . SPEAKER: The Hon ourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER : Mr.

Speaker, the docu ment that was finally brought down to me purporting to be the document in questi o n was one involving Mr. R. Douglas, J. Weldon and I believe P. Nickel, although I can 't find that confirmed in here. MR. ASP ER : To the First Minister. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

April 16, 1973 1777 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. ASPER: In view of the conflicting data and respon ses that have been made would the . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. The Honourable Member is stating an opinion again which is argumentative. MR. ASPER: Well Mr. Speaker, with due respect, Sir, there have been some very rash and harsh things said about thi s is sue. MR. SPEAKER: Thi s is the que stion period not the debating period. The honourable member ha s the floor. MR . ASPER: The que stion is, Mr. Speaker, will the Firs t Mini ster table the document so that all members may see the data? MR .

SPEAKER: The Honour able Firs t Mini ster. MR . SCHREY ER: Mr. Speaker, frankly I have no objection at all. But this is in the nature of a memorandum, I will check with advisors to see what undesirable precedent may, problems may be cau sed by so doing. I do rec all, Sir, the former Attorney-General , Sterling Lyon once giving the Hou se a lecture, I thought with con siderable validity, as to where one ended up if one started to table inter-departmental inter-office memoranda, particularly from advisors to Mini sters.

I have no he sitation in circulating any memorandum that I sign but on the other hand, thi s is from advisor s, statistician s, theoretical analysts, etc. I will check. A MEMBER: I wouldn't do it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Rupertsland . MR. ALLARD: Could the Mini ster of Industry and Commerce confirm or deny that the Manitoba Hotel Ass ociation has reque sted government' s help for support in introducing an ID card system that would help them observe the law as it relates to the age of entrance into their premise s? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of Industry and Commerce. MR . EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, although the Department of Industry and Commerce has been engaged with the hotel industry in a productivity audit in order to help improve the efficiency level of the indu stry as we're doing with many indu strie s in Manitoba, I am not aware of any specific in stance such as the honourable member refers to. I have no knowledge of it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thomp son. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Premier could indic ate how many U.S. citizen s are on the Pla nning and Priorities Committee? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Fir st Mini ster. MR. SCHRE YER: Mr.

Speaker, I will take that que stion as notice. It's my impression that there is no one of that st atus. However, I better not say that for a fact. I'm not completely certain. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thomp son. MR. BOROWSKI: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I ask the Attorney-General whether he could indi cate whether there are American citizen s on the Human Rights Commi ssion admini stration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the Acting Executive Secretary, I think is still an American citizen .

He is -- (Interjection) -- well you know, I don't think that tha t is an offence in thi s country, Mr. Speaker. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Attorney -General could indicate whether there's a shortage of qu alified people to serve on an important bo ard like the Human Rights Commi ssion? MR. MACKL ING: Mr. Speaker, the Honour able Member for Thomp son has not made applic ation for the po sition but application s are now open for that po sition and if he' s interested why he can apply. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honour able Fi rst Mini ster. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I ... I'm sorry. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Le ader of the Liberal Pa rty . MR. ASPER: To the Fir st Minis ter, Mr. Speaker. While he con siders hi s deci sion as to whether or not the report I've spoken of should be tabled, would he also take as notice or confirm that the information for the year ended 1971 as analyzed by government stati stic s, was that out of a potential, an exi sting labour force of nearly 17, OOO in the native community,

1778 April 16 , 1973 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. ASPER cont 'd) ... .• only --I'm sorry, of a potential labour force of 17, OOO , 11, OOO out of the 17, OOO were unemployed, both Indian and Metis , and that the labour force is growing in that community by five percent per year? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr . Speaker, I don't want to haggle with my honourable friend and I am assumi ng my honourable friend doesn 't wish to haggle about this either.

What I will endeavour to do, Sir, is to obtain essentially the information my honourable friend is inter ested in but in a format which is in the format of a report rather than a memorandum in which a public servant is giving advice and opinions. That can be vetted out and then we have in effect the report . There would be no difficulty whatsoever in making that information avail able and I will undertake to do so in that manner. I would only say in the interval, Mr.

Speaker, that the problem is ac knowledged to be one of considerable severity, consi derable challenge to try to remedy, but I point out to my honourable friend, Sir, that it has to be taken in relation and in context of a similar phenomena in other provinces, and also in relation �o the problem as it existed in the past and whether or not any new and extra efforts have been attempted in order to alleviate the amount of unemployment. So all of this can be updated then and this information given in present day terms. Having given that undertaking, Mr. Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Honourable the . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BOROWSKI: I know the Premier is anxious to get on with the business. I have one question to the Minister of Health. In view of the Human Rights legislation that we have on the books and in view of the experiment in the United States where they're putting women and men prisoners together in the same jail, is the Minister of Health considering a pilot project of co-ed prisons in Manitoba? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. Order, please. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, it 's not a pilot project it 's a fact. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day .

The Honourable Member for Rhineland . MR . FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I have a further question to the Minister of Mines and Resources. Has the loan or the advances made to the operators of Bissett Gold Mines - have they been repaid completely ? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources . MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I don 't recall the status of that loan. What I do recall is that the existing conditions are such that the mine is controlled and owned by persons other than the Crown . I don 't recall the exact status-of that loan. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR.

AL LARD: Pursuant to his answer, could the Minister of Health and Welfare tell the House where in Manitoba the policy of cohabitation for male and female prisoners is taking place ? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, a week or so ago, all members of the H ouse were invited to the opening of the Youth Centre on the 18th of April and within that facility you will see juveniles being housed in different cottages but within the same facility. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister talking about provincial jails or just the Youth Centre, which is a separate thing? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Hea lth. MR. TOUP IN : Mr. Speaker, the Youth Centre is a provincial institution. MR. BOROWSKI: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will continue to ask until the Minister is going to answer the question. Do they have, do they have ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. BOROWSKI: Do they have cohabitation, the male and female prisoners at Heading ley or at Brandon jail? MR. TOUP IN : No, Mr. Speaker, we did hold at one time though within the Portage Jail, in separate again, in separate rooms, but within the same facility. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Orders for Return.

The Honourable Member for Charleswood.

April 16 , 1973 1779 ORDERS FOR RETURN MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Ch arleswood): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Pembina that an Order of the House do issue for Return showing the following information: 1. Total amount of miles of Northern winter roads built by Me Ke Se Construction Company Limited during the winter construction season of 1972 -73. 2. Contract price per mile of the above construction and actual price paid upon completion. 3.

Total amount of money paid to Me Ke Se Construction Company Limited during the winter construction period of 1972-73 and total amount of money still due and payable for this period. 4. Cost of similar construction per mile during the winter construction season of 1970 -71 and 1971- 72 . 5. Cost of similar roads for moving pulp for C FI constructed by others than Me Ke Se Construction Company Limited. MOTION Presented. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourab le Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYD E: Mr.

Speaker, information very similar to this was given to a number of members who expressed an interest, including the Northern Affairs critic for the Opposition, but we welcome this Order, Mr. Speaker. We'll accept it. MR. SPEAKER : So ordered. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourabl

C) the Attorney-General that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION PASSED and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourab le Member for Logan in the Chair. SUPPLY - AT TORNEY-GEN ERAL MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 17(a) -- passed ; The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Chairman, I believe we're still dealing with the Minister's Salary and while I don't have a great deal to discuss with the Minister in respect to the affairs of his department, there is one matter that I would like to bring up with the Minister in all seriousness, a matter that ha s unfortunately been in my judgment taken somewhat lightly by the Minister and by his department, and I would assure him that the que stion is of grave concern to many Manitobans, and that is the ques tion -of law enforcement with respect to those people who persist to rus tle cattle in our province. Mr.

Speaker, there have been several instances in my -own constituency that have brought this matter most forcibly to my attention. I would like t-0 describe for the Minister one specific instance that happened on land adjacent to mine to a friend, a neighbour of mine, the Jim Proctor farm, a farmer in my area at Woodlands , who had a young heifer, a yearling shot last fall on his farm. Three witnesses witnessed the shooting. There was no question as to the deliberatenes s of the action taken by this person and , Mr.

Chairman, there has been n-0 action to date by the Attorney-General's office in prosecuting this person . Now I don't wish to speak any more. I would think that the matter would be perhaps one of a case of being sub judice ; a charge has been made, to my understanding.

I only ask the Minister, and I s ay this to him by way of notice, that he undertake -- and I would certainly wish to speak to him maybe privately later on to give him further particulars about the case, but my purpose in bringing this up to the Minist er's attention at this time is that, to the best of my knowledge, there has been no conviction acquired to this date of an offence that occurred last September in which there were three witnesses who witnessed the shooting of the animal.

In this particular case the farmer was immediately notified; the animal's head was removed from the carcass and kept in a deep-freeze to be used as testimony at future trials. To the best of my knowledge that head is still in the deep-freeze at this particular time, with no prosecution having been completed in this case. It involves the Stonewall Detachment of the RCMP. I would assume that the hearing would take place by the presiding Justice that visits Stonewall from time to time. I would ask the Attorney-General to look into this matter� and I'm sure he will.

1780 April 16 , 1973 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL (MR , ENNS cont'd) , •.•. But my concern, Mr . Chairman, is that it's this kind of permissiveness, if I may use that term , or the slowness to act, or this inability on the part of the Crown to act more diligently that causes a tremendous amount of concern by the local ranchers and stockmen in my area . This same person was out in the same area some months later at deer shooting time .

This particular incident happened during the duck and goose season and the animal was shot by a shot gun , and for any of you who are familiar with the effects of shooting with a shot gun , I can attest to the fact that the hole in the centre of the yearling heifer's head was no greater than a qua rter , which would lead anybody to believe that the animal was shot from very close range indeed for no allowable spread of the shot. Now, several months later in the deer hunting season, the same party is seen gaily hunting on the same person's land , and Mr .

Chairman, I think it's unders tandable that the reaction of the private farmer, the stockman; the rancher , is one of co�siderable concern, one of some discouragement at the fact that it seem s to take so long for our law enforcement to deal with these instances . Mr . Chairman, there have been several particular instances of cattle loss in my area where the enforcement of the present laws seems nigh impossible. In one instance, another constituent of mine had two or possibly three animals slaughtered in this same manner . They had a pretty good idea as to who was responsible.

The RCMP were directed to the residence of the person whom they thought was responsible and indeed found the hides of the animals buried in a very rough and crude fashion behind the residence of this person . And yet , Mr . Speaker , for reasons unknown to me , and I assure you unknown to my stockmen and rancher constituents , no prosecution could take place . Now, Mr . Chairman, the seriousne ss of .these crimes should be noted by the Attorney General .

Ca ttle prices being what tray are, quite frankly the odds of making this.a worth- while venture have considerably heightened in the last little while merely by virtue of the price of beef cattle . When I consider the-odds of holding up a service station or a bank in the City of Winnipeg for questionable return , for maybe $50 ; 00 or $60 . 00 ,. the lure of shooting a prime steer or cow in the relatively unsupervised regions of the Interlake country, Mr .

Speaker , and knowing that.the value of the animal runs at anywhere from 300 to 400 , indeed to $500 . 00 , we can .only expect considerably more of this kind of activity to plague the ranchers and the stockmen of our province. Mr .

Chairman , it's not my intention to delay .the deliberations of the Estimates of the Attorney-General 's Departm ent at this time, .but I would ask him to bring to this particular aspect of his department, the law enforcement aspect of trying to bring in some expeditious way to justice those at least who have been charged, or those who have , you know, charges - where charges have been laid, to justice in a more-expeditious manner so that for whatever deterrent effect there may be in the -prosecution of the law,· that that deterrent indeed take place . I feel , Mr .

Chairman, that unless there is a considerably greater amount of attention paid to this area; .. that the farmers and ranchers of Manitoba are going to, for reasons of their own protection , going to become increasingly .anti-social, if I want to use that phrase , with respect to people who otherwise may just be out for a weekend drive to enjoy the virtue of a · few hour s spent in the countryside, or more specifically , in terms of posting the land to prohibit the trespass of persons from the city, fr orri our towns and cities, of those persons who wish to perhaps come and enjoy an afternoon's hunting. Mr .

Chairman , in closing let me just say that to me I cannot really a_cce pt the fact that the penalties attached to, for instance the breaking of the law when it comes to our wildlife , when it comes to shooting deer out of season, when it comes to nightlighting and so forth, to me are correctly severe and, Mr .

Chairman, certainly appear to be carried out with con siderably more, you know, enthusiasm as far as enforcement are concerned, than the same laws that apply to the domestic animal that is shot under similar circumstances illegally by persons, you know ,-bent on this kind of adventure ._ To me the laws should be equal. I don't know and I don't wish to read any ideological conflict in this because of the fact that the deer belongs to the state and the animal belongs to the private farmer , and that, Mr .

Speaker , is not my intention because the law is there for some standing and I suppose we would have to take some responsibility for the existing law as it now stands. But I would ask the Attorney-General to examine with his departmental people whether or not, whether or not

April 16, 1973 1781 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL (MR . ENNS cont'd) ••... the laws affecting the criminal shooting of animals, either .domestic or wild should not be brought under some kind of a comparable analysis, and whether or not there shouldn't be a considerable stiffening up of the penalties that are presently prescribed for the shooting of domestic animals, or more commonly referred to, the rustling of animals. And I point out to the Attorney-General , Mr .

Chairman, that while we use the phrase "rustling" , that generally has a connotation in the minds, I'm sure, in the urban minds of my friends oppo site, that in the days of old, western creed and t radition that called for a p osse of riders to herd off this group of steers into some hidden valley or a thicket of bush , then to be maybe transported over to the neighbour 's claim and rustled in that manner . When we refer -- we use the word rustling in Manitoba. It actually refers to butchery right on the field in most instances .

What we call cattle rustling means that somebody who is equipped to butcher the animal right on the field, drives on the farmer 's field, shoots the animal , bleeds the animal on the field, cuts the best parts of the beef carcass off the animal, puts them in the trunk of his car and speeds off. And the farmer only is aware of this, the rancher is only aware of this when next he , occasionally he has to check through his pasture as he comes upon the mutilated corpse or carcass of his once prized animal .

So this is why in my judgment the analogy of treating the culprit in much the same manner that the person that will do this to deer out of season, or will moonlight -- jacklight is the proper phrase -- deer at night . Again, .it's a butchery operation that takes place because nobody in their right mind will be seen travelling about the country - side with a deer slung over their fender out of season, nor will they do that at any time with prime beef tied to their hood or to the trunk of their car .

So it is people that are essentially set up, that are well equipped to shoot the animal , to butcher the animal, and take the prime cuts of beef off the animal, and it all can be done in a very short period of time. Mr . Chairman , I suggest that the Attorney-General should consider whether or not the laws governing this kind of activity shouldn 't be considerably stiffened.

I know we introduced a resolution to that effect last year, and we had a little bit of fun about it because the Attorney General seems to indicate that everybody should really have a crack at one steer, or the first steer should be on the house , or something of that nature . Now, Mr . Chairman, we're having a reasonably good discussion; I'm sure, Mr .

Chairman, if you will just kindly nod at the Attorney-General he '11 desist and he 'll sit down because I really didn't take it seriously or take it that he meant it in that manner , or that perhaps we in fact may be -- the fact that we maybe had , we had over exercised our imagination in interpreting that that is what he said. Mr .

Chairman, the fact of the matter is that with the outlook for beef prices being what they are, that is that beef will continue to be a very , you know , valuable asset, very valuable in dollars to. the individual farmer , and I might say a worthwhile asset to the would be thief who stalks among us in broad daylight or at night, that the Attorney-General consider very seriously about recommending ways to the Enforcement Branch, that is the RCMP in most instances in the country , or indeed maybe even examine with his colleague the Minister of Agriculture whether or not there isn't a faster or more appropriate procedure that could be used perhaps with the involvement of some of the staff from the Department of Agriculture in terms of hasty verification of a fact that an animal has been shot.

At the moment, you know, it doesn't always happen that you can get the RCMP officers promptly on the scene to verify that the animal has indeed been shot. Also as it oftens happens to be the case, that the farmer himself doesn't find the animal missing or doesn't come upon the remains until such time where decay has started to set in .

And really I think that while it's difficult from law enforcement point of view for the law enforcing officer to accept, you know, on the farmer's say so that this beast had in fact been done away with in a certain manner , but in my judgment a person more expert in the agricultural field, a person that knows his individual farmers that he serves through the agricultural offices that are scattered through the provinces, very often can sub stantiate the fact that an animal like this, you know, or if this animal is lost in that manner . All I am doing, Mr .

Chairman, is searching for better means of control; I'm suggesting that the Attorney-General might also do this because there is an increasing concern being expressed by my constituents who see an increase of cattle being slaughtered and stolen in this manner , and see little or no evidence of our ability to comprehend the culprits to bring to justice those who deprive the farmer from his hard labour , you know, and years of work in many instances, particularly in the case of older stock. Mr . Chairman, the stockmen of Manitoba certainly don't wish to take the law into their

1782 April 16 , 1973 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL (MR. ENNS cont'd) . . . . . own hands, but I can assure you that when you come upon a prime animal, a female that you 've, with a great deal of consideration and a great deal of time, spent maybe three or four years in raising only to find it shot and half its carcass carved out from it, there is a tendency to react rather irrationally . I can report to the Attorney-General one other instance that happened again in my constit uency where in this case only the young calf was taken .

I suppose the rustler had a feeling for veal , but it was obvious that maybe in the butchering of the calf, the cow, the older cow was somewhat disturbed as you might well imagine , and in order to send her off he emptied a shot gun into the side of the cow and this cow , a first prime Hereford cow some seven years of age managed to wander back to the barn with half its stomach blown out . Now that of course led the farmer into taking a check to see what happened to the calf and that 's when he found out that the.calf had been butchered on the field by the technique that I have already described . Now, Mr .

Chairman, these things are taking place , 1hey're going to take place I'm afraid with increasing regularity as the price of beef remains high. I know that the RCMP are doing .what they can; I also know that the prosecution is undoubtedly what it can do in this instance. But I'm asking -- I must then raise the question that, is it equipped either legislatively to do what it must , and should the department maybe consider broadening out its field of ways of bringing further supervision into play in this matter .

I ask the Attorney-General either to take the time later on in his response after he has had an occasion to check on this case , this specific case that I've mentioned, that is the case involving one Mr . James Proctor and son in the Woodlands area . I can bring the matter up privately with him but I know that in this parti cular instance where this heifer was shot in broad daylight with three witnesses to my knowledge the case is still up in the air and has not been dealt with, and I've asked the Minister to consider reporting to me on some occasion on that matter . Thank you . . . . . .

Continued on Next Page .

April 16, 1973 1783 SUPPLY - ATT ORNEY - GENERAL MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I had intended to deal with the same subject and I don' t intend to cover the area that my honourable friend the Member for Lakeside has covered, but there are one or two questions that one could pose which the Member from Lakesi.de omitted to deal with in his remarks. One of the prime responsibilities of government is the protection of the individual against those who commit crimes against society.

There is no doubt in my mind that the rustling of cattle is going to be a crime that is on the increase and will continue to do so. No hope at all that the present law enforcement agency, or the present structure of law enforcement in this province, is going to be able to deal with it.

One of the other things that is posing a problem of course is the one that was raised in this House, I think it was last year, on a resolution, and the Minister will recall that particular debate, and I don' t want to go back into that one, but I wonder now if the punishment -- and I've been somewhat disturbed in the past few years the kind of punishments that have been meted out to people who are committing crimes, and I hope that if the government are not carrying their ideological theory so far that we now penalize people on the basis of their ability to pay rather than the particular crime that is committed.

But what I am interested in knowing from the Minister, and he can incorporate his answer when he -- with those that he wants to make in reply to the Member for Lakeside, is based on a news report that I heard just recently about the degree to which rustling had increased in the United States as well, that ranchers there impatient with the law enforcement of their particular areas are strapping on their gun belts again and taking the law into their own hands, and that sort of thing will happen here as the Member for Lakeside said, a farmer has to have that happen to him once and he's not going to wait for any law enforcement officer, he's going to protect himself and he's going to protect his property.

What I would like the Minister to be able to tell the House is how can a farmer protect his property ? What rights has he got in protecting his property against those who would rob some calves and steers; is he allowed to carry a gun at all times, a six shooter on a holster, with a hol ster, or whatever he may require to protect his property ?

I just wonder if the Minister would incorporate in his answer the answer to that particular question because I think that a lot of farmers are thinking very seriously about taking the law into their own hands and protecting themselves if our present law enforcement agencies are not going to do it for them . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste . Rose . MR . A. R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste . Rose) : Thank you very much , Mr . Speaker . It's probably one of the few times that I'll get up to agree with the Member for Morris and the Member for Lakeside.

I don't intend to go into the problem that was just brought out by the two honourable members from the Opposition, but I do think, Sir, that it is certainly a problem that is going to increase in this province, as well as in the neighbouring provinces, where livestock is produced in considerable numbers. I believe that the problem of completely eradicating slaughter of cattle is a very very difficult one indeed to prevent.

We know of course that there are people travelling all over this province and certainly with the high cost of meat, although I don't think that it's out of reason in relation to other commodities on the· market, nevertheless some people seem to feel that beef is high in price and therefore there will be some encouragement of some nefarious people to go out and illegally shoot and slaughter livestock. But I know also that there are a considerable amount of cattle that are rustled, and that is not slaughtered.

I believe that in the last two years this was brought up in this House -- I brought it up myself, and one of the members from the Opposition br ought it up as well. And last year, for instance, not too far from a community pasture one of the roads leading into the community pasture had to go over a land that was leased by a rancher, and this was more or less the beaten trail to get to and from the community pasture, and one rancher in my cpnstituency lost ten cows, that is last fall. Another rancher in the same vicinity also lost eight head.

Now these livestock were not shot or slaughtered, obviously they were herded away or picked up and the owner had to stand a great financial loss. When you consider ten cows at $500 a head now, it's $5, 000. 00. The problem is not a small problem ; in speaking to law enforcement officers they feel that under the present law it is very difficult for them to apprehend anyone who is stealing cattle because

1784 April 16 , 1973 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. ADAM cont'd) ..... at the present time anybody can load cattle on his truck and no matter whether they're branded or otherwise, there is no comprehensive method of checking back on these cattle. Now in the Province of Saskatchewan and the Province of Alberta they have comprehensive brand legislation where no one can move any cattle without ownership slips or trans fer slips. This would go a long way to give the law enforcement officers a tool that they require to spot check on highways and in stockyards and in the Winnipeg yards, or in the packers.

However, even with this type of legislation there is still rus tling going on in Alberta and Saskatchewan, so this again is not the entire answer. I don't know whether I should suggest capital punish ment, Mr. Chairman, but obviously we have to have much more severe penalties for this type of people.

What I find very very odd though when I hear the members from the Opposition here get up today and ask for some type of legislation to prevent this type of nefarious occupation, I can't help but remember last year that the member, I believe, from Birtle-Russell, that introduced -- or was it the Member from Gladstone, I can't recall now -- that there was a resolution introduced last year or the year before, and I brought in an amendment at that time, Sir, that we would consider the advisability of introducing heavy minimum fines for cattle rustling in this province, and lo and behold every Conservative got up and voted against that resolution.

So I find this kind of odd that now they stand up and say we have .to have heavier penalties for cattle rustling when they all got up and voted against that resolution last year. Now no one can deny this and the Member for Roblin was in his wisdom trying to mislead the people of my constituency and his own. I think he misled his own people more than he did mine because at least my people know me in my constituency, I don't know if they know him. I believe if they knew him he wouldn't be there. POINT OF ORDER MR. ENNS: ... of order.

When there is in my judgment, or in a member's judgment, a deliberate misreading or distorition of events that occurred in this Chamber, Mr. Chair man, it's these kind ofvarmints that we're trying to run out of our cattle country when they take this kind of an attitude to what was a serious resolution introduced by the Member from Birtle-Russell . The point of privilege being that that resolution was concise; it was clear; it called for stiffer penalties. Last year the Member from Ste.

Rose -- I will do the double checking to see what the amendment that he brought in, but essentially it was an amendment to take the Attorney-General off the hook at that time from taking deliberate action, or from resolving to do something of the nature that he now subscribes to that we defeated. Mr. Chairman, we asked for action last year ; it was effectively railroaded, or railroaded out of the realm of effective action being suggested to the government last year by the Member of Ste. Rose, and let it be put on the record, Mr.

Chairman, that that was the position of the Progressive Conservative Party last year on this very important resolution. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm not certain at all that my colleague the Honourable Member for Lakeside had a point of order in what he said but I think there is a legitimate point of order in the last remarks of the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose having to do with an allegation that my colleague the Member for Roblin deliberately misled the House and misled his constituents.

That I think is a legitimate point of order if not a point of privilege. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the point is well taken. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that the Honourable Member for Lakeside had a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I think that the point raised 3y the Honocirable Member for Fort Garry is quite a valid one. I would ask that the honourable member reconsider and withdraw that remark. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, of course I d·m't want to get into a debate with the Chair man, but the fact is that the Member from Roblin did misrepresent my role in the debate on the rustling resolution last year , and in fact he later retracted the statem•'mts he had made in the press. So the fact that he found it necessary to retract the statements is sufficient

April 16 , 1973 1785 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR, ADAM cont'd) .. . proof for me that he was indeed misieading the people with his reports. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. On the same point of order ? MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of privilege. I did not withdraw the allegations in no s'.iape or form. Mr. Chairman, my qLiarrel with the Honou rable Member for Ste .

Rose was on the words "advise on the credibility of pursuing it" and that was my quarrel with the honourable member, that we were prepared to debate with it then, improve the law last year; the honourable member brought in an amendment to that resolution that said, "consider the advisability of" and I did not withdraw that charge in any shape or form, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose.

I would refer the honourable member to Citation 154, sub 3: "Imputation of bad motives or motives different from those acknowledged, misrepresenting the language of another, or accusing him in his term of mis representation. " I think that the honourable member should reconsider and withdraw that re mark. MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If I have offended the Hou.se I will gladly withdraw. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

ADAM: Nevertheless the fact remains that the opposition voted against a resolution last year that would have provided "consider the advisability to provide heavy minimum fines for cattle rustling in this province. " Now those, Mr. Chairman, are in the records, there's no misrepresentation in the comments that I am now making. The facts are in the journals and if we need further proof we can bring them in . SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL Cont'd -- -- ----- --- --- -- -- --- -- MR.

ADAM: And I just want to at least say that I do support the concerns that the Member for Lakeside and the Member for Morris have expressed today in regards to the rustling of livestock.

I would certainly ask the Minister to see if there is not a possibility that we could, while it's a federal, comes under the Federal Criminal Cod e, and I realize that it's one that the federal laws will have to consider, nevertheless again I have to q.iestion the sincerity of the members opposite when I'm wondering why last year when they were introducing a resolution in this House why did they not get in touch with their leader in Ottawa to introduce this into the Federal House.

I want to advise the honourable Members here that I have been in corres pondence with our Federal Leaders of our party to bring this to the matter of the federal representatives. So I have to question actually their sincerity when they speak in the manner that they d•J. But I would again ask the Minister to consider the advisability of bringing in some sort of legislation that would at least help the livestock producers and at least try and recompense them at least in part Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Thompson. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR.

McKEN ZIE: Would the Honourable Minister consider the resolution on this matter with the terminology "consider the advisability of" again ? MR.

ADAM: Well in answer to the member's q·.iestion, if he will recall last year when the resolution came up in the House at which they were insisting that it be done at this session, that was the sub-amendment that was brought in by the Member for Birtle-Russell, they were suggesting that we go into a program perhaps of brand inspection which, ifwew : mt to have some control or give the police officers s::ime assistance to apprehend the people who are rustling cattle, we will have to have comprehensive brand inspection to assist th·em in their work.

Now when this amendment was brought to the House the session was due to prorogue in about four days and certainly this was entirely unfair on the part of the Opposition to ask the Minister of Agriculture to bring in some type of legislation of this sort. And that is why I brought in an amendment "to consider the advisability of." MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, just on one little point of -- to show that it is never too late to bring in meaningful legislation, that same session saw, or a session previous to that, saw within two days of prorogation of the House the important Farm Implement Machinery Act brought before us and passed first, second and third reading, which is having considerable

178 6 April 16 , 1973 SUPPLY - ATT ORNEY - GENERAL (MR, ENNS cont'd) ..... effect on the purchase of farm machinery and its use in the Pro vince of Manitoba. I remind the honourable member who just spoke t!:iat Act, Sir, was brought in the last two days of the session. Ill co;: isidered as it was, the farmer's now feeling some of the consequences in having to pay a five percent surcharge on their eqllipment as no other farmers in the prairie provinces d:> , and I only raise it because it was raised by the Honour able Member for Ste. Rose that four days is not sufficient time to con.sider important legislation.

Sir, it didn't deter the Minister of AgricL1lture from bringing in a major bill. Two days is all that he reqL1ired to ramrod through a bill of his liking and certainly that excuse doesn't stand the test of time in this House. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Thank you, Mr. ChairmaP, I will not be too long, Mr. Chairman. I just have a few points to make at this time. · I did not hear the Honourable Minister when he intro duced his Estimates but I have a few qL1estions to raise to him and the first one is of course in connection with legal ai_d.

It is my understanding that, or according to the appropriation that the legal aid now and expenditures for March 31 st, 197 4, is one million four. Last year's expenditures were 750, 000. It is my understanding that this is the first time that there will be a grant from the Federal Government in the amount of 50 0, OOO. Also we will have interest from the trust accounts of lawyers which will amount somewhere in the neighbourhood between 250, OOO to 50 0, OOO.

So it would appear to me, and of course I am not certain, but I am asking the Minister the question that would it would appear that the contribution has ctecreased as far as the Provincial Government is concerned. That is assuming the figure of 250 , or using the low figure of 250 as far as the interest from the lawyers' trust fund is concerned_ But that• s the low figure, it collld be higher. So in my opinion it would appear that the contribution of the Provincial Government has oocreased as far as legal aid services are concerned.

My qtiestion to the Minister is: what is the grant from the Federal Government; what is the contribution from the lawyers' trust funds ? I d·Jn' t know if the Minister would have it in an exact figure at this time br not hilt if he has this would be interesting, so what d·Jes it leave the Provincial Government• s contribution because I know it will vary according to what the other grants will be. The other point, Mr.

Speaker. it is also my understanding that the legal aid does not cover speeding offences, or impaired driving charges unless the person needs to use his car for his living, and I wonder if this is correct because I certainly feel that it should cover when he needs his car for his living. We may as well say that perhaps it is not as comprehensive as it should be. Maybe it should be more comp :r:ehensive, Mr. Chairman. The other point is the Crime Injuries Compensation. Board.

I know that there has been payments made to victims of crimes in Manitoba, and I dJn't know if the Minister elaborated on that part of his Estimates or not but perhaps if he hasn't I would like to hear him because in my opinion I think that this is perhaps one of the best things that this Legislature has d•me in the last few years. Because when s0mebody is left with injuries and unable to compete in society or to hold a job I think this is where the s0ciety is certainly, it's incumbent on society to compensate a victim that's been a crime victim. Mr.

Chairman, the other point -- I don't know if the Minister has mentioned or not in connection with the Liquor Control Act. I. know that there are some small communities that would like to have mixed drinking privileges and because, not on.ly that their town has to have the vote but the whole municipality, or in that area, and usually the small community will pass the vote while the surrounding, some of the farm communities will not, and this has been a problem in some areas, and I wonder if the Minister is giving any consideration to changing the legislation in this area or not.

And I would like to hear from the Minister in that respect. There's also substantial, a great increase as far as juvenile crime is concerned in this city and in this province, and I'm sure this is a concern to the Minister as well as to the law enforcement officers and to the people of this city and this province, and my question to the Minister is: if our remedies of solving problems of juvenile delinqllency, are they working or are they not.

And perhaps we are only looking at the aspect of correcting the situation after something has happened and maybe we're not looking at the preventative side of this whole problem. And perhaps that the Minister should give more consideration as far as the pre ventative side is concerned. We are told that 60 percent of the people that were arrested in

April 16, 1973 1787 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR, PATRIC K cont'd) ..... the City of Winnipeg, in the Inner City, 60 percent were of juveniles, and many of them were in the younger age group in the age limit of 13 I believe to 14, which it's pretty difficult to understand, Mr. Chairman, why such a great increase. It's a fantastic increase and certainly the Minister by this time must have had some studies into this whole problem and may have some answers.

I understand that juveniles have accounted somewhere in the neighbourhood of 46 percent of those people arrested in 1969, and in 1972 it has increased to I believe -- or '71 has in creased up to 56 percent. So there's a gradual increase and continual increase every year. As ¥ell there has been q·ciite a few in that age group, in the young age group, who have been charged with non-capital murder in 1972, while a few years back there I believe was very few, or I understand only one.

I don't know if the change in the Liqcior Act was to some extent responsible for this or not but I'm sure that the Minister and his department are quite concerned and must be looking at this problem very closely. So I would like to hear from the Minister what is happening, and I would like to see much more emphasis placed on preventative measures instead of cure and in my opinion that pre ventative measure is much less expensive than the other one. Mr.

Chairman, it has also come to l1'1Y attention that cases before the County Court in Dauphin are -- there's a tremendous backlog of cases that are to be heard and are not heard. I d)n't know what the reason for that is but perhaps ther e's too much work for one judge or what it is, and the question isn't you know how many -- how hard the judge is working or how many cases there's to be heard, but I believe the serious question is, is that justice is not expedited quickly. And perhaps the Minister can give us some explanation for that.

The other point that I wish to raise with the Minister at the present time is in the Family Court in Winnipeg -- I raised this problem with him last year. I understand the docket is loaded with cases, particularly under the Wives and Children 's Maintenance Act . It 's the Family Court, Mr.

Chairman, it's supposed to deal very q::iickly with cases and not only quickly but very cheaply, and in my opinion in many cases as a result I believe that women cannot get relief and are forced probably to continue living with husbands who abuse them and again, in my opinion, justice is not expedited judiciously and very quickly.

I know that if a person has money you can go to the Court of Queen's Bench and avoid any delays, but in many instances if you haven't got money and you have to go before the Family Court which is the most reasonable and the cheapest court, the case is that you are loaded with cases and these people have to wait a very long time. I'm not being critical of the Minister but I raise the question and perhaps he can give us some of the answers. My question to the Minister is then, how long are the delays ? How many cases are waiting at the docket at the present time ?

And how many cases are processed, say every week or, you know, perhaps the Minister can give us some of these answers. The other point, Mr. Chairman, is again we have a pretty considerable increase in arrests for -- drug arrests in the province, and particularly in Winnipeg, and I wonder what kind of work, what kind of measures is his department taking in this area in the abuse of drug arrests in this province. I understand that it is at a record high during the past year and is this in crease continuing daily or has it slowed down ? So perhaps, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister can give us some answers to the questions that I am posing to him now. There is another point. 1, understand that there is a number of juvenile transfer appli cations to the J, :lult Court, and of course we all know what happens in the Adult Court, which is incarceration, and again my question is, are they doing the proper job as far as rehabilitating the juvenile people in the province, or are we doing as good a job as some of the other provinces?

Another point has come to my attention that there has been cases where the board has overruled the judge in some cases and as a result the kid was not put in an institution who had a serious record, on many occasions would get out and had stole a car and somebody was killed as a result of this juvenile not paying the penalty perhaps that he should. It depends - I'm not an expert in this field but surely the Minister must know that snmebody with a very serious record and long record, perhaps he should be able to pay the price and pay the penalty instead of not to. So, Mr.

Chairman, these are some of the questions I'd like to pose to the Minister at the present time and hope that he can give me same answers to these questions.

1788 April 16 , 1973 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Memher for Thompson. MR. BOROWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm going to be spending a little time dealing with the crime situation in Manitoba, Mr. Chairman, but before I do that I'd like to deal with some of the answers that the Attorney-General give us last week. I think he said that women were treated as chattels and they were really no better than the prize plow horse, and that may have been the case many years ago but over the weekend checking some of the United Nations reports, Mr.

Chairman, I find that women of Ca nada enjoy the largest freedom, the greatest freedom of any women in the world, and this freedom did not come about, Mr. Chair man, because of anything this government has d::me or the previous government. We happen to live in a country that's got a system that was inherited from our mother country in England, which was a very good system, and the women since getting their rights to vote -- I do n't recall when it happened in 1916 or when it was --(Interjection)-- under a Liberal Government the Member for Assiniboia tells me. But after they received that vote, Mr.

Chairman, they certainly are enjoying, a_nd have for years, and are enjoying today the greatest number of tig hts in the world. And I think we only have to look at the labour legislation where for male the Compensation Act states that a male can't lift over a certain amount and a female can not lift over a certain amount. And the difference between the load to be lifted by a man or a woman under the Compensation Act I believe is something like 20 or 30 pounds. We certainly know that there is a difference in the divorce proceedings and home owner ship, and in the various legislation that we have in this province.

For example if you're a waitress and you're working till midnight the employer has to give you free transportation home. Now they certainly do not extend that privilege to males, to any men that are working, and I'm sure that the Attorney-General would not want to in the name of equality wipe out these rights that our women enjoy in this province. The other thing that the Attorney-General should look into to realize that this type of inequality, if he wants to call it that, is necessary.

We don't have the draft, the military draft for women; if there's a fire, a forest fire, a fire ranger can •.valk into a beer parlour and tap people on the slloulder and take him out to the fire. They certainly cannot d:i that to women, and I'm sure that the Attorney-General would not be suggesting that we should equalize that in the name of this phoney equality. And, Mr.

Speaker, I could go on and on and catalogue the many differences we have in the legislation in this province which give women certain privileges and admittedly that men have certain privileges, and they were put in there for a very good reason after many years of experience. Labour unions have fought for these differences for many years and I think they resent as much as other people the equalization that's being attempted through the legislation that was passed by the government . - Now, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to quote again from the Phyllis Schlafly report to indicate who is promoting this so-called equality in the United States, and we know, we certainly kn ow who's promoting it in Canada. There are two very differenct types of women law being for equal rights amendment. One group is the Women's Liberationists; their motive is totally radical, they hate men, marriage and children. They're out to destroy morality in the family.

They look upon husbands as exploiters, children as an evil to be avoided, by abortion if necessary, and a family as an institution which keeps women in second-class citizenship or even bondage. Well, Mr.

Speaker , anybody who has watcheo some of the television debates we've had in Canada from Germaine Greer to others you certainly appreciate that the difference between a women's lib in Canada and United States is no different, and they are the ones that have been lobbying for this type of equalization, and the Attorney-General seems to be more concerned about their viewpoint than he is about the rest of the people in this country and the rest of the women and mothers in Manitoba.

And I think that he should probably talk to his wife once in a while and he'd find out that she probably agrees with what I'm saying. --(Inter jection)-- Yeah, she has a lot more sense than he has. Mr. Speaker, but there are exploiters, there• s no question, there are employers who exploit women and there are individuals who exploit women, and I would like to read for the record what Phyllis Schlafly thinks who the exploiters are, and this applies to probably any country in the world.

And she's talking about a writer who paid $1, OOO to a girl to pose for pictures for his obsc �ne book called, I'll simply call it X. And then grossed $2-1/2 million

April 16 , 1973 1789 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd) . ... . --(Interjection)-- the government is liable to rush off and buy a bunch of them if I named the name, so I won't do that. In sales -- as a matter of fact they may make it compulsory reading in our schools. "In sales in one year he was certainly exploiting women on an abasive way for his own financial gain.

When Earl Warren, when the Earl Warren Supreme Court ruled in favour of the sadistic pornographers who produce the bondage books and magazines, that is the materials which portray and describe the whipping, chaining, and mistreatment of women in connection with sexual assault, it was opening the floodgate to such exploitation of women never condoned by a civilized society.

Anyone who was truly interested in the liberalization of women, from male exploiters, should go after the pornographers who have made fortunes out of the bodies of women " and then it goes on to say, "that pornography can be ac.Jurately defined as degradation and exploitation of women" . I know that the Attorney-General has had a lot of material sent to him by myself and by other people who have had material picked up on Main Street and Portage and brought to his attention for prosecution.

I have brought some stuff to his attention that was sent to me from the university. --(Interjection)-- Yes, well I understand that the government didn't subsidize a trip of happy hooker into Manitoba so I can't blame them for it. But the paper that was put out by the university which is paid for by our money, and the Attorney-General has seen it, and he was just as shocked as disgusted as I was and those people that have sent it. I underst:rnd that he is taking the matter to court and I want to on that point congratulate him, Mr. Speaker.

But I simply can't understand the almost hysterical reaction and -- I'm groping for words here -- the enthusiasm with which the govermnent seems to be pursuing a course of somehow of bringing equality to everybody. You know with all the injustices there is in this province, and there are injustices, they seem to forget the real ones and go after the ones that are things that I think that were frowned on over the years. For example, there's an injustice of people that are 40 years, Mr. Speaker. If you happen to be 40 years old in this province that's just too bad.

It doesn't matter which employer you go to -- and I don• t know what the percentage is, 70 percent employers would say it or 60 percent. I know that large companies will not hire you if you're over 40 years old. Now, Mr. Chairman, you as a labour man will certainly agree with me that that is truly discrimination, and not on a basis whether he's male or female but they discriminate equally on the basis of age. Now that I consider a terrible injustice. But do we see the Attorney-General or the government trying to change this thing here ? No, we do not.

We've got them -- they've got themselves tied up into kind of ridiculous programs like you can't put male and female on the ads, and all th e other things that he is doing through the Human Rights Commission, which is, as I indicated the other day, creating more injustices than it's correcting. Mr. Chairman, I had a bill here the other day which dealt with abortion and many people felt that was a terrible thing, and there are many people that consider that's discrimination and injustice and the government wasn't prepared to do anything.

Not a gre,1t deal was being asked of the government simply to delete it from payment. They were not prepared to be reformers in that area. They feel that the women should have the right to their body and to kill the child, but yet the other areas which are very important like the 40 year old, or like the lady who wants to hire a babysitter, . . . there's no protection, and the Attorney-General woulc::,11 t even come out and say that he's going to change it in this session. He is saying, perhaps they will look after it next session. Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't call that reform. We can, Mr.

Chairman, we can pass all the civil rights and equal rights and human rights legislation you want to but to the man who can't get a job whether it be because he's an Indian or Metis or Jew or Catholic or 40 years, all that civil rights legislation isn't worth a damn, because he can't get a job. I don't know how many people there is today looking for jobs that are 40 years old. But I would suspect there's a lot. If there are 94, OOO old age pensioners I would venture to say there must be at least 94, OOO people over 40. What about their rights? Doesn't anybody care? Who do they go to see?

Who is going to champion their cause ? It seems to me that that party of reformers, and they have brought in some reforms, seems to me that that would be a priority item to bring in legislation if it was necessary. One wonders how it ever -- how this thing ever started. I don't know and I don't care. The fact is that anybody who reached that magical age of 40 is suddenly excluded from participating in our economic system and I think that is bloody criminal. And I think it's criminal for the

1790 April 16 , 1973 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd) ..... government not to move on it and the Chairman knows that when I was in Cabinet and in caucus I brought that up many times, so I can not be accused of remaining silent when I was part of the government. I had complained about it, and I will continue to complain about it, and I will continue to bring it up, or rather will bring it up when the next election is fought. We have another case in Camperville. We know the situation that happened there. Teachers have been slandered by groups of being racistwhichl consider a very serious charge.

It's worse than a four letter word in my opinion. I don't see the government getting excited about it, calling an investigation. Not only that, Mr. Chairman, we heard from the Minister of Education, indicating the other day that he is going to give to them two teachers plus money to set up their own Metis school. Now that is segregation, ra

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-5-64
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 5th hansardpdf 64.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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