Proceedings of the House of Assembly During the Seventh Session of the Thirtieth General Assembly of Newfoundland Volume II

Proceedings of the House of Assembly During the Seventh Session ofthe Thirtieth General Assembly of Newfoundland TUESDAY, May l, 1956. The House met at 3:00 of the clock in the afternoon, pursuant to adjourn­ ment. Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair. Presenting Petitions MR. DROVER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from the people of Jackson's Arm in the District of White Bay. These people are 1·equesting a road from Jackson's Arm to connect with a road at Peter's Brook owned by Ilo­ walers. The petition is signed by 237 voters of the community.

Jackson's Arm is one of the largest settlements that we have in White Bay. For seven years they have been making this re­ quest for such a road. I have much pleasure in supporting the petition, and ask leave for it to be tabled in the House and forwarded to the De­ partment of Public Works for consid­ eration. On motion petition received for ref­ erence to the department concerned. HON. W. J. KEOUGH (Minister of Mines and Resources) : Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of certain of my constituents who live in the area betwe en Flat Bay River and Fisher's River.

The petition is signed by 262 voters of the settle­ ment of Flat Bay, St. Theresa's and Gypsum. For the benefit of the House, Gypsum is the small community which has developed on the lip of the Gyp­ sum Quarry from which the raw ma­ terial is supplied to the gypsum in­ dustry at Corner Brook. Possibly a

;-HOUSE ·OF ,ASSEMBLY 'PROCEEDINGS "839 th<m&and people live in , the area be­ tween Flat.Bay .. River and Fisher River. Th~y have , a road ·.system there that is maintained by the .Department of Public Works, and links the four set­ . ttements ,! but does · not hav.e any access to the ·.Trans-Ganada :Highway. This petition ,requests that they be provid­ ~ ·with access ,to the Trans-Canada "Highway. 'As they are the only siz­ able pocket of people in ·my district who have not as yet had such connec­ tion they .are most .anxious that . such access road be-built.

I may say, Mr. ~eaker, that I no­ tice that the first name on this peti­ .tion is the name of a person who for­ merly .sat, not .a& a member of the House, .but as.a member of the Nation­ al Convention in .this .House as a re­ , presentative for the District of Port au Port, Mr. M. J. McCartliy. 1 sup• port the petition, Mr. Speaker. As a matter of fact that is putting it rather inadequately. The Minister of Public Works knows I have camped on his doorstep for over a year now, advocat­ ing just such an access road be con­ structed.

I beg leave, MT. :Speaker, to table the Petition and -to have it -referred to the Department concerned. On motion ·petition received for rnference to the department ccmcerned. MR. ,DROVER: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present ,a : petition from the people of Ming's Bight .in ·. the "South of White Bay. These :people ,·are .petitioning for a bridge -across South Brook. South Brook is mid · way between Ming's ·.Bight and Baie ,Verte. H is on the trail leading from Ming's Bight :to ·Baie Verte.

These people have been Tequest:ing such a bridge since the days ,of Commi ssion of Govem­ ment,:-and I 1havc ·p-resented many such petitions for them for that same bridge since I was elected in 1949. The petition is signed by 64 voters. I think ~hat is· ju&t about all -the voters at Ming's Bight, and •they request that this bridge be built to enable them to get to hospital or to a doctor, espe­ cially during the time of the year when the .coast is blocked with ice.

I st1pport ,the petition, Sir, and ask ,leave to have it tabled in .the House and forwarded to .;the Department of P.ublic Works. :0n motion "petition tabled for ref­ ·erence·,to ' rhe department concerned. MR. DROVER: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present another petition from the people of George's Cove, The Beaches, The Rooms and Hampden, •to :connect ' the Toad with Hampden. The ,road dn·question is three miles in length and at one time they did have a road there in former gover-nment clays. 'It is the only means whereby the peo­ ple can get to church and school, apart from going' by boat.

Tb:e petition , is signed --by 93 of the · voters. I have much pleasure in sup­ porting it and :ask ,that it be tabled in the House -and refer~ed to the Depart­ ·mmt-of Public Works. On motion petition tabled for ref­ erence to the department concerned. MR . . DROVER: I beg Jeave, Mr. Speaker, to present one more petition, this time from ~he people of Wild Cove .iul the District of White ~ay South. "The people are requesting a road within ·bheir community, with Seal Cove and Baie Verte. I believe that this •is the •second or' third such petition that I have ·presented from these people.

I ·think their request is reasonable, and I do give it my support. The petition

840 HOUSE OF .ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS is signed by 69 of the voters of that community, I ask leave, Sir. that this petition be tabled in the House and forwarded to the Department of Public Works for their attention. Presenting Reports of Standing and Select Committees: MR. NORMAN: Mr. Speaker, the committee appointed to consider the BHI entitled, "An Act Respecting the Trustees of the Board of the Presby­ terian Church in Canada," reports that the

preamble of the same bill has been proven and that the Committee recom­ mends the said bill to the House with­ out amendment. On motion report received. On motion Bill ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on to­ morrow. MR. NORMAN: Mr, Speaker, the committee appointed to consider the bill, entitled, "An Act ,to Incorporate t1he Newfoundfand Association of Archi­ tects," reports the premable of the said bill has been proven and having amended certain clauses, with the con­ sent of the petitioners, the committee recommends ,the said bill to the House. On motion report received.

On motion said bill referred to a Committee of the Whole House on to­ morrow: Giving Notice of Motion: HON. J. R. SMALLWOOD (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, I give notice I will on tomorrow ask leave to move the House in a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions in relation with the advancing or guaranteeing certain loans for Tourist Development. HON. L. R. CURTIS (Attorney Gen­ eral): M·r. Speaker, I give notice I will on tomo1Tow ask leave to introduce a ,~II, "An Aot Further to Amend the Public Utilities Act." HON. J. R. CHALKER (Minister of Ed~ation): Mr.

Speaker, I give notice I will on tomorrow ask leave to intro­ duce a bill, "An Act Further to Amend the Education Act," and a Bill, "An Act Further to Amend the School Tax Act, 1954." HON. G. J. POWER (Minister of Fi­ nance): Mr. Speaker, I give notice I will on ,tomorrow move the House into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions in relation to the raising df a loan on the Credit of the Province and also give notice I will on tomorrow move the House into Com­ m~Hee of -the Whole to consider cer­ taiin bonds or debentures or for the guaranteeing or advancing of certain loans.

Giving Notice of Questions: None. Answers to Questions: MR. BROWNE: Mr. Speaker, there is a question in reiation to Minutes of Council: MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, it has never been the practice in the past to table in the House orders in council, and I tlo ,not propose •to begin the prac­ tice now. The only exception to that rule is to be found in. the Revenue and Audit Act which provides there must be tabled in the House Orders in Council that relate to warrants tha,t the Gover.nor has been moved to issue his waniants.

When the Government is moved by the Cabinet to issue his war­ rant it is done by order in Council, and the governor's warrant and the order in oounoil requesting it have to ~

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 841 tabled in the House. That is the only Order in Council that has to be tabled. The ·practice has never been to table orders in council in the House, and I do not propose to begin the practice. MR. HOLLETT: Mr. Speaker, on that ,point, are there two different k.inds qf orders in council? I under­ stood they were all the same and all were to be tabled. I wonder w'hat the Honourable the Premier would say to that. MR.

SMALLWOOD: The Honour­ able the Premier says to that: if all Orders in Council were to be ,tabled it would be the most extraordinary thing in the history of constitutional govern­ ment. MR. BROWNE: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Honourable the Premier if his attention has •!:Jeen drawn to the fact tha,t Orders in Council are published in Ottawa in a volume. MR. S,MAIJLWOOD: Certain ones are, certain ones are not. MR. BROWNE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Honourable the Premier if his attention has been drawn ,to an

article in the "Daily News" wherein it was stated that Mr. Fleming, the Premier of New Bruns'. wick has invited the Premier of Nova Scotia, ,the Premier of Newfoundland and the Premier of Prince Edward Island, etc., to discuss a formula for the development of the Atlantic Area, and if he has received any such invita­ tion has he sent a reply? MR. SMALLWOOD: I have receiv­ ed an invitation and have not sent a reply. MR. BROWNE: Does the honour­ able the Premier intend to aend a reply? MR . . SMALLWOOD: Quite pro­ bably-Yes I will send a reply. But I have not as yet consulted my colleagues in the Government.

I would prefer to wait until Mr. Fleming gets his elec­ tion over before I take up that matter with him. I propose to deal with it a,fter the election is over. MR. HIGGINS: A very sensible pre­ caution. MR. SMA!LLWO0D: I would like to be sure he is ,there. MR. HIGGINS: Mr. Speaker, I may be underestimating the speed of the honourable members, but is it not time we got our coats on, Sir. There Is a stiff head-wind today. MR.

SPEAKER: I might inform the House at this time that His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor has gracious­ ly consented to meet the members of the House for the purpose of the pre­ sentation of the Address in Reply at !l:!10 P.M. So, as the Honourable Member for St. John's East suggests, we might get ready now. The House will stand re• cessed until our return. On motion the House recessed for the purpose of presenting the Address in Reply to His Honour, the Lieuten­ ant-Governor, to which His Honour has been pleased to reply as follows: "Mr.

Speaker, and gentlemen of the Honourable House of Assembly, I thank you for the Address in Reply to the Speech with which the present session was opened." Orden of the Day Second reading of Bill, "An Act to Provide for the Transportation of Tim­ ber Over Streams and Lakes, and For

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Other Purposes in Connection with Crown Lands." (Adjourned Debate)': MR. BROWNE: Mr. Speaker, the Attorney General was good enough to postpone second reading of this Bill yesterday so that we might: have an opportunity of studying it. My reason for making that request was that it seemed to me to be very much like a bill introduced here two years ago. So I got the Act passed two years ago, and although that was only one long para­ graph, this has been broken, up into seven paragraphs, and the first six seem to be almost identical with what is here.

The only new onea that I can· find is in Paragraph 7, which is rather com­ plicated, but does not seem to be very vital as far as I can see. "

(7) Subject to the· approval of the· Lieutenant•Govemor in Council any­ portion of land. referred to in sub• section (2) may be sold for any- pur­ pose other than those mentioned in sub-paragraph (

a) and (

b) of' sub­ section (6), but the approval of the, Lieutenant-Governor in Council under this subsection may be given subject to such terms and conditions as to the disposal of the timber growing on the land as he may prescribe, and when­ ever land is sold under this subsection the Minister of Mines and Resources shall upon application of the Reid­ Newfoundland Company, Limited, give a certificate in respect of the land showing that the land has been sold in accordance with this subsection and stating the terms and conditions, if any, that have been so prescribed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council and all of the other terms and conditions prescribed shall be binding as well up­ on the Company as upon all persons to whom the land may therefore come whether, . by conveyance; , foreclosure;_ operation of law-· of otherwise. howso­ ever.'' What mystifies me about it, Mr.

Speaker, is why there is so much for­ mality ,in connection with this, I don't think it has been explained as to why the gi,ivemment is going through so much trouble in connection with this particlllar

section of land which was given to the Reids,, I believe away back· in 1904. That is when the first legis­ lation regarding this piece of land was passed. Now- the Act of two years· ago gives the government the right to· wood on this land, but permits the Reids to sell it subject to the timber rights. This. bill only adds this new section. If the Attorney Generali would explain the thing better r: would be grateful for his doing so, because ,I cannot quite· understand why it is necessary to bring in this bill at the present time; MR CURTIS: If there is nobody else, Mr.

Speaker-----! would say the bill is brought in at the request of the Reid-Newfoundland Company who have been approached (1) by the Can­ adian Overseas Tele-Communications outfit, who are buililing a cable, as my honourable friend knows, as the House knows, from Halifax to Eng­ land, and they are passing through Newfoundland,, and in the course of their route they have to go through some of.the limits covered by this land.

Now then, the Reids found that al­ though they were willing and could . agree upon a price, they had no au­ thority to let them,have the land, and the Lieutenant-Governor in Council had no authority to give them permis­ sion to sell. The effect of this Bill is to , enable us. to give the Reids per­ mission to sell a right-of-way through; this land for this purpose.

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS There are also two or three other reasons

(1) Tourist Development: They cannot at the moment sell a piece of land nor rent a piece of land for a tourist cabin, because it does not come within the strict limits of the 1954 Act. Likewise, as I told the House . in making the motion, they cannot even rent a piece of land nor they cannot sell a piece of land even for cemeteries, because it is not a min­ ing nor it is not a wood works proposi­ tion such as we envisaged when the Act was made in 1954. As to the reason we are enacting the whole clause, Mr. Speaker, that is the policy of the department. In as far as we can do it, when there is an amend­ ment being made to

an Act we like to sweep up all the previous amendments so that in future when the honourable members or the general public refer to

an Act they may only have to look at the last amendment and not have to look at all the amendments. ·we try to sweep up all the amendments in one Act. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, it is a long Act, two and a half pages, for the sake of enacting one section. MR. BROWNE: The title is mis­ leading, I think. On motion bill read a second time -Ordered referred to a Commillee of the Whole House on tomorrow. On motion the House went into Committee of the Whole on various Bills. Mr. Courage, Chairman of Commit­ tee of the Whole.

A Bill, "An Act to Amend an Agree­ ment Relating to a Loan to Be Raised By Wabush Lake Railway Company Limited (Loan Guarantee) Act, 1955, The Act No. l, 1955 (Second Session) Between the Lieutenant-Governor in Council and Wabush Lake Railway Company Limited and,Canadian Jave­ lin Limited." MR. CURTIS: On this matter; Mr. Chairman, we have a second reading of the bill which was prepared to fa• cilitate the Committee. Rather than· read the amendments when they come up. With the consent of the Commit­ tee perhaps we might substitute the second printing for the first.

I noticed while looking up "May" the other day; it is not the practice for a member moving a bill to move" amendments. It is generally allowed particularly in the estimates. But it is not discouraged in view of the fact. that sometimes that is the most con, venient way to do it. I just mention. that. If honourable members would rather read the first printing and have~ the amendments put in? MR. CHAIRMAN: I have here Rill No. 38 and below the number is writ. ten "Second Printing." Perhaps we~ should read the second as ·is, and,then­ point out the changes. On motion Clause l carried. MR.

CURTIS: The change there-is· -"Prevailing on the date the said loan is made." The amendment is very, small, Mr. Chairman. As you sec, it. is just to make it in Canadian Dollars - or in American Dollars or in Swiss. Francs. MR. BROWNE: Mr. Chairman, may I make a remark here-It does not seem sensible. In the first draft it says when such payment of principal or interest fall due. That is years ahead: MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes-On the date the said loan is made; MR. CURTIS: Then there is a· change here-"At the option of· Wa­ bush" and not at the option of the government.

844 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS MR. BROWNE: That is a matter for •the government to decide. That is your policy. MR. HOLLETT: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, why are we mixing up the two readings. I do not understand. MR. SMALLWOOD: The only paint is so that my honourable and learned colleague could get the two positions there. On motion Clause 2 (

a) and (

b) carried. Clause 3 carried. Clause 4 carried. MR. BROWNE: Mr. Chairman, ,I would like to ask if the government intends to lay on the Table the agree­ ment which was actually signed, be­ cause apparently it was different from the terms of the one which was passed here. MR. CURTIS: Actually, Mr. Chair­ man, I would say the agreement as signed was a printed copy of the sched­ ule of the former Act without any change. MR. BROWNE: Why does it say "such change"? MR. CURTIS: That is the way they word it. That is all. Actually it was identically the same.

The signed copy was a printed copy of the sched­ ule, as done by the Queen's Printer from the proof. On motion Bill passed with some amendment. A Bill, "An Act Respecting the Fil· ing, Publication and Consolidation of Regulations." No. 12. ments and asked leave to have them considered. If they are not quite ready we can pass on to the next one. On motion Committee of the Whole House on Bill No. 12 deferred. A Bill, "An Act To Amend and Con­ solidate the Law Relating to the Es­ tablishment and Administration of Local Government."-No. 20. On motion Clauses 1, 2 and 3 car­ ried.

Clause 4 read. 4.-This Act does not apply to the City of St. John's or, subject to the City of Corner Brook Act, to the City of Corner Brook. MR. CURTIS: There is one mis­ take, Mr. Chairman, -In the second line of (7) ". . . an order be made under that section." ilt should be "this"

section and in the last line "name" should be "Mark." On motion clause as amended car­ ried. On motion Clause 7 carried. Clause 8. Clause 8 through 15 carried. MR. BROWNE: . Do you not think, Mr. Chairman, it would be a good thing to have elections of Town Coun­ cils every two years? HON. S. J. HEFFERTON (Minister of Supply) : Not i.n our experience. We did not try it, but we have the federation meetings annually and they are of the opinion that four years would be better. On the mainland they vary between two, three and four. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I think all the On motion Clauses 16 through 19 clauses were read, but one was allowed , carried. Clause 20 carried. to stand. MR. CURTIS: I think I gave my honourable friends some typed amend- Clauses 21 through 28 carried. Clause 30:

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 845 MR. HOLLETT: We are going very fast through provisions with far-reach­ ing effects-Compensation for loss of or injury where any person sustains loss or injury ,by pulling down a build­ ing to prevent spread of fire-The councils pay compensation, and the amount of the damage, if any, sus­ tained shall be determined under this Act as if the loss or injury was caused by expropriation. What does that mean? The building is blown up to save the rest of the town. Then the council would probably say, well, you would have lost two-thirds or three­ quarters if we had not. MR.

BROWNE: It seems to me a good case for giving him a little bet­ ter because his property has been de­ stroyed so that other parts of the town might be saved. MR. HEFFERTON: If expropriat­ ing they would not expropriate two­ thirds of it. MR. BROWNE: How much would be paid a man like that? MR. CURTIS: The comer of the house might be on fire. MR. BROWNE: It is not a thing that is going to happen very often. Who is to decide the compensation? Is there any provision in this for ar­ bitration in case of a dispute? MR. SMALLWOOD: Arbitration would cover that. Clauses l!O through 49 carried. Clause 50: MR.

BROWNE: There is a little conflict there between the regulations and Health and Public Welfare. MR. HEFFERTON: Mr. Chairman, there should not be. This was drawn up in collaboration with the Health and the Welfare departments. MR. BROWNE: Which one over- rules? MR. HEFFERTON: Health. Clauses 51 through 55 carried. Clause 56: MR. BROWNE: Is there any com­ pensation arising out of that? MR. HEFFERTON: There must be provision for it some place or other. MR. BROWNE: Maybe we could let that stand until we come to the compensation clauses? On motion Clause 56 stand. On mo­ tion Clause 57 stand. Clause 58 car­ ried. MR.

HEFFERTON: Mr. Chairman, Clause 59 is new. MR. HOLLETT: It looks to me to be very new. "By minute of council" -is that the usual way of setting up taxation? MR. HEFFERTON: How else are we going to do it? MR. HOLLETT: You know we were never to have any taxes. Now here we see general taxes, stock taxes, business taxes, hawkers' and peddlers' taxes, real property taxes, entertain­ ment taxes, insurance taxes, water taxes, sundry taxes, building contrac­ tors' license fees and circus license fees. MR. SMALLWOOD: Did not all those exist long before we came in? MR. HOLLETT: Not here. MR. BROWNE: Not outside St. John's.

MR. SMALLWOOD: How did the town councils operate? There were a

8"46' HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS dozen·. or more before we· came in, and they had these. MR. HOLLETT: They did not have any such wide powers as these. MR. SMALLWOOD: These were precis ely the taxes they imposed. This is only a consolidation. MR. HOLLETT: This is not a consolidation .I read here. I just draw this to the attention of the Committee because all these taxes may be im• posed by minute of council, without the people's knowledge whatsoever. MR.

HEFFERTON: If the honour• able gentlema·n had read on he would have found that although the council may pass a minute of council whereby they are authorized to impose taxation yet there has to be publication of that before the thing can be enacted. Quite a number of taxes have not only to be passed by the council but have to be referred to the minister, and not until approval is given can that tax come into force. And this has been our procedure right through. On motion Clauses 59 through 69 carried. MR.

BROWNE: The council may impose upon every customer a tax (in this Act called the Coal Tax or Fuel Oil Tax as the case ma:y be) of one dollar a ton on coal or fraction there­ of and one cent a gallon on every gal• lon of fuel oil or fraction thereof pur• chased by the consumer for consump• tion in the municipality. Is that aris­ ing out of the case at Port aux Bas· ques? Does it mean accessible from the land? In other words if a river was the boundary and there was a bridge across the river some other places on the other side of the river from the municipality would be liable for the tax. MR.

HEFFERTON: Take another case. There are quite a number of stores situated on the waterfront and have a wharf leading from the land to the store itself. MR. SMALLWOOD: A shop built right out over the water. MR. BROWNE: Is that the reason? MR. HEFFERTON: Yes. But it does not refer to the case you were speaking of now, Port aux Basques. We will come to that later. On motion Clause 69 carried . On motion Clause 70 carried. Clause 71 carried. Clause 72 car­ ried. Clause 73: MR. HOLLETT: I think we will have to pay a tax for our own funeral. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Except if a funeral is for charitable, educational or religious work. This

section does not apply to any entertainment where the proceeds are for the bencfi t of charity or education or religious pur­ poses. I am not too sure ball games do not come under any of these head­ ings. If it is held for the purpose of raising funds for charity or for schools or for church purposes it is not tax• able. MR. HOLLETT: It seems to me it is doing a disservice to baseball. I refer to it because I like it, it seems to me the only way baseball can be played is under the auspices of the church. MR.

SMALLWOOD: 'I think my honourable friend should be more con­ cerned with knowing if this entertain­ ment tax is applicable to political meetings . MR. HOLLETT: That Is another point. I am not sure it does not. I merely point out that a council can

HOUSE OF- ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS tax, you to the· hilt. There:is ,no q1c1es­ tion about it at all. MR. BROWNE: I suppose they can tax, political meetings. They would be entertainment of a sort, although some· politicians would · have- the · en­ tertainment with them. On motion Clause 73 carried. Clause 74· ·through 76 carried. Clause 77: MR. HOLLETT: It was bad enough to tax the liquor, now they tax the water. MR. BROWNE: Yes, they tax water and they tax food. Clause 77 through 78 carried. Clause 79: ·MR.

CURTIS: There is a small amendment to Clause 79: In the last line but one-Sub-section (4) after the word "consumers" insert "together with the name and address of each." MR. BROWNE: That is going to bl" difficult- to carry out. MR. CURTIS: I don't think so. A steamer comes in and just gives the list of customers who have purchased coal.. MR. BROWNE: A schooner is hired to bring coal from Witless Bay to Cape Broyle. He has to give an account to the council of the coal to be brought in. MR. HEFFERTON: The council would probably have an employee on the wharf at the period. MR.

BROWNE: If the wharf is in some other settlement outside the area? MR. CUR-VIS: This

section was agreed by the parties. We had a case recently in Port aux Basques. On motion Clause 79. carried; Clause 80: MR. BROWNE: Who invented that? I never heard of that . before-putting , a tax on telephones. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is here in St. John's. MR. HEFFERTON: That is a com­ mon thing. MR. BROWNE : The government collects a tax, three per cent on the service-but a tax on telephones. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is a very direct tax, precisely the type you get in local government; On motion Clauses 81 through 89 carried. Clause 90 and Clauses. 91!. carried. Clause 92: MR.

BROWNE: P-lebiscites - How are fhese going to be held? I know another Act where the Lieutenant­ Govemor in Council has p,ower to order a plebiscite but there is no. way of forcing the government to do it. Is there any way here of imistJ.ng­ How can you get it done? Is there any ,provision lfor that? MR. CUR TIS: It does not say "shall" bwt it says "inay." MR. BROWNE: Well then; the- pee,; ple may want a plebiscite and cannot get one. Take on the school ·tax, for instance or any sort of tax. MR. HOLLETT : You would be· hav­ ing plebiscites all the .time if:you .gave tha t authority. MR.

CUR TIS: This . is the existin&; Aot: On motion Clauses 92 throug~ 109. carried. Clause 110: ,

848 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS MR. BROWNE: If it is in order, it seems to me there should be a pro­ vlision here that a body of assessors before entering upon their duties should be truly sworn. On motion Clause llO stand. On motion Clause lll to ll7 carried. Clause llB: MR.

BROWNE: "Nothing contained in this Act shall require the council to make compensation or transfer any other matter provided by way of com­ pensation until such time as the own­ er has established his title to the reas­ onable satisfaction of the council and when any notice of expropriation is served under this Act it is the duty of the person on whom it is served to submit to the council his ti tie deeds and any plan of his land or property which may be available to him and to provide council with any information which it may reasonably require in connection with the title to the land or property; and where the owner delays in furnishing title deeds or plans or in providing necessary in­ formation the period stated in this Act within the compensation or mat­ ter is required to be paid or trans­ ferred or the finding of the Board of Accessors is otherwise required to be carried out shall be deemed to be ex­ tended by the period of delay so made by the owner." Now in the neighbourhood of Por­ tugal Cove and Torbay there are very, very few grants nor in Witless Bay nor Bay Bulls on the Southern Shore, and on the Southern Shore generally there are very, very few grants.

The other day I had a client who was pur­ chasing a piece of land in Bay Bulls, and there was no way of finding the title. There were no grants. People just sat on the land and built a house. How could they produce a title? MR. CURTIS: They could estab• lish the title by just stating the facts. MR. BROWNE: Not if he has only the house there for four or five years. HON . DR. F. W. ROWE (Minister of Mines and Resources) : He has no title then. He cannot establish it be­ cause he has not got it. There has been no squatter rights since 1930. MR. BROWNE: How is he going to get title?

The council may come and take his land and not give com­ pensation although he might have im• proved the land by building a house and garden and things like that. MR. S'MAI.JLWOOD: Would the hon• oura:!>le gentleman strongly favour leg• islation to make it easy for every• one, for people who occupy land to get title? MR. BROWNE: Yes. J think there should be something. We have on the Statutes a complicated procedure. l have used it.

But this is a case where, as everyone knows, in some out• pons people leave the place, the family dies out, and the fences fall t!own, and -there has been a right there but there has never been a grant . Now then, in such cases how can they ·produce to .the Council a title in ac• cordance with this? MR. SMALLWOOD: One of the really important sections of the Re• port of the Royal Commission on Aogriculture was the one ,that dealt with the question of land title.

I,t made a very fascinating study of the situation as it iis in Newfoundland to­ day, which is, of course, as .the Com• mittee knows, a .historical situation, one which originates in our very his• tory, in the nature of Newfound•

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 849 land and in the nature of Newfound­ land history. But in addition to mak­ ing that fascinating study of the situ­ ation as rt is, the Royal Commission very strongly recommended .that steps be taken by the Legislature to remedy the situation. The government did go so far as to get legislation drafted, and we considered it for months on end. And, speaking with very great frankness, we are a little scared to in­ t-roduce it, to bring it into the House. Some of us in a purely personal capa­ city are convinced that it ought to be done.

And yet, on second thought, we wonder just what representation it would get in ,the House. The last thing in the world we want is to dis­ tuJ1b anyone in ,what right he has now. This right very frequently, as the hon­ ourable and learned gentleman says, is not a right ,ohat is given to him at all by the government. These are rights that he just has, that is all. To save his rnfe probably he could not tell how ,he got them. He has ,them. He is there. He has the right of posses­ sion there. He is sitting on the land.

Well, there ds no desire in the world to upset that. lf you upset that you loose a ·hornet's neiit. 'I'hat is the situation. That would rea:lly be some­ thing to write home a'!>0ut. I don't think any politician anyway would want to do that. But, 11hould the desire -to avoid a hornet's ne&t be permitted forever to prevent our setting up something that future generations will bless us for having done, for having had the courage to do today? Because every year that passes complicates this, every decade that passes complicates -this whole situation.

As our population becomes large and our people become more numerous this situation is get­ ting to be really almost something in­ tolerable. That is particularly true in •the older places in Conception Bay, on parts of the Southern Shore, the older parts of Placentia Bay and T1·e­ passey, and ,it must be especially true in the older places of Trinity Bay and Bonavista Bay; the older parts of Newfoundland-less true perhaps in St. John's than other parts-but it is a desperate thing that calls for remedy.

It is a question whether some day we can get a House, where both sides alike, a committee perhaps of !>0th sides of the House, would sit down with no thought of elections, with electfons over and done with and no election ooming on for perhaps four or five years, sit down calmly and ren­ der the people of Newfoundland that piece of good service which will stand them in good stead for decades and perhaps centuries to come. Sort o.f begin a doomsday book, taking the situation as it is and going on from there without calling title into ques­ tion. MR.

CUR TIS': I think the situation is healing itserf, because the longer people are in possession the better their ti tie. MR. BROWNE: Yes, but still, where there is vacant land in a place naturally people would want to get it, and it is very difficult for them to get a good title. I am thinking of this piece of land 1which has a house built on it for five years, and a man to sell, but as a lawyer looking at it I cannot say what the title is. Here is a case where .the town coun­ cil goes and takes a person's land. The council has -the right to say to the man, your title is no good.

You must esta:ilish the title to the reasonable satisfaction of ·the council. Now it seems to me that there should be some ,provi~ion of appeal from the decision of the council not to recognize a man's title. There must be some way

'EffiO HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY "PROCEEDINGS of getting •beyond the title if the coun­ dl refuses to recognize it. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. Actually I don't suppose one per cent could ac­ count for and come along and pro­ duce real documentary evidence that he owns a piece of land in most parts of N ewlfoundland. HON. DR. F. W. ROWE (Minister of Mines and Resources): I think he can in .most cases produce af£idavits signed by three, four or a dozen old persons. As a matter of fact I bought a piece of land four or five years ago which was without title but a squat­ ter's title.

But my lawyer interview­ ed a number of persons there who "felt wiiling to take an affidavit that the land had been in this man's hands actually eighty years. I bought it. While I am on my feet, Mr. Chair­ man, there is one other ,oomment I should like ,to make: This business of squatting has been dying out in Newfoundland, and is dying out for a very realistic reason.

Our people · are beginning to learn now that if they squat on land and invest their money in a home or a ;premises or something like that on some 'la,nd on whioh •they have no title, if in eight or ten years time they want to sell that land they are not likely to be able to sell because they cannot produce any title. In very recent years we have had very little evidence of any squatting going on.

We have had tremendous increase in the num­ ber of applications coming in even for summer homes; rpeople in Gander, Lewisporte, Grand Falls, Corner Brook area at one time would go in and without writing an application for a pieoe of land from :the Crown Land Ollfice, build a summer home, but they are getting more conscious of title. Even in <the last four years, I would say, •the number has at least trebled. Incidentally we get proportionately -as many from White Bay and St. Barbe and the South Coast as we did a few years ago from here. MR. BROWNE: The practice is not to give any grant. DR.

ROWE: The legislation of which the Premier spoke would rem­ edy •that very evil, and would enable a man who say, had been eight, ten or fifteen years on a piece of land to get title registered. MR. BROWNE: I think it is worth going into. The government ought to introduce it and have a joint oom­ miHee sit on it. MR. SMALLWOOD: Let us wait until later this year perhaps or a little later. MR. HOLLETT: Be a little more ex.plioit? MR.

BROWNE: H seems •to me here a council may go in and take a person's property and even when the person has been there even for twenty yr,a,rs, t,he council may say, ,that is not good enough. I have a case now, and I know what I am talking about. Pub­ lic Works is holding it up. They got the land -but have not paid any­ ·thing at all. Clauses 11B through · 12!! carried: MR. BROWNE: What does Clause 124 mean? MR. OUR TIS: It means they ex­ propriate for thier own purpose. But if they want to seH or dispose of it they must get the approval of !!he Lieutenant-Governor in Council.

Otherwise, I suppose, <they might want to expropriate land from one person and give it to another. I guess it is a protection against that situation.

HOUSE .OF ASSEMBLY 'PROCEEDINGS :851 MR. BROWNE: I cannot make that out. On motion Clause 124, carried: MR. CUR TIS: Mr. Chairman, sup­ pose we allow Clauses 56, 57 and 110 stand and I will ask the draftsmen to remedy these points. . On motion the committee was or• dered to report progress on this bill. Bill No. 133-"An Act Fm:ither to Amend the Highway Traffic Act." Clause 109: MR. BROWNE: It appears the per­ son is allowed to pay back the money by installment. If for some good reason he is unable to pay an installment he should not be completely disqualified. HON. E. S.

SPENCER (Minister of Public Works) : He has already been given a concession by being allowed to pay by installment. MR. BROWNE: Suppose it is fifty dollars a month, and he gets sick and out of work and he cannot pay it, should he have to pay the full amount at once then? MR. SPENCER: The law is not made to encourage breaches of this kind. It is made to protect. MR. BROWNE: Take it this way, a man has to pay back five thousand dollars at fifty dollars a month.

He pays say for two or three years steadily and is doing well, and then meets with an accident or becomes ill and can't make the payment, and he comes to the minister and tells him he has been sick for the last two months and in the hospital and shows him his doc• tor's certificate. MR. SPENCER: In such a case, do you suppose any minister on earth would refuse to give a man a chance. .MR. BROWNE: The minister has no power-"the minister shall." That is what I am trying to point out. I realize the minister does not want to be placed in the position , of having to decide those things. MR.

SPENCER: ,I think the ordin­ ary citizen would be given due con­ .sideration in such circumstances . MR. BROWNE: 'I know a case where a man was ordered to pay five thousand. He made an agreement through our offices to pay fifty d-01lars a month, instead of going to the Un­ satisfied Judgment Fund. He made the agreement to pay, ,and has been very faithful. But suppose he did be­ come ill-we simply say, well, as soon ,as you get better resume the payment. MR. SPENCER: We could change that word "shall" to "may"-Does the h-0nourable member -think that would make a difference? MR. HOLLETT: I think, Mr.

Chairman, the minister should be given discretion in these things, be­ cause in such cases as described : by my honourable and learned friend, I think it is right the minister ,should have the discretion. Under this :sec­ tion he has no discretion .-and has , to be cruel,

whereas, knowing the min­ ister as I do, I am quite sure he·would want to be reasonable, as would ·any man in such a position. MR. CURTIS: In other words, have sub-section (3) made a little lenient? Maybe we could let it stand. I am not going to draft it here in a hurry and have people come along and say it is not right. On motion Clause 109 (

A) stand. On motion 109 (B) , 109 (C) , 109 (D) , carried. 109 (E) : MR. CURTIS: Mr. Chairman, un­ der 109 (E) : Under Cost, Mr. Chair-

852 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS man, I would like to move an amend­ ment-on the 4th line after the word "in respect of" insert "application and the action" and Lhen strike out the words "in respect of the action." MR. BROWNE: [ think it is neces­ sary to have that redrafted there­ Supposing it is a car that is stolen. It is the driver who is responsible, the owner being an innocent party, having had his car stolen is not liable under the law. MR. CURTIS: We could let that stand, Mr. Chairman. On motion Clause 109 (

E) stand. MR. OHA:IRM,AN: It being now 6:00 P.M. of the clock, I will leave the Chair until 8:00 of the clock. NIGHT SESSION The House resumed at 8:00 of the clock. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order: When •the Committee recessed we were con­ sidering Bill No. 33, "An Act to Amend the Highway Traffic Act," page 17, Clause 109. Part of that clause was allowed to stand. MR. BROWNE: I could understand the Act if a person gives his car to the offender, if a man allows someone in his own home, his son or someone like that to take a car, that is the gen­ eral law on the subject.

But where a car is unlawfully in the possession of someone or is taken against the will of somebody, or like a servant taking his employer's car while he is away and without his permission, in such c3lles I cannot see how the owner of a car can be liable. MR. SPENCER: tn the Act he is liable. It is his property. MR. BROWNE: No, he is not. If he were it would be very unjust, it is not so. Usually the owner is liable, but there are exceptions to that. "Where an aotion is brought under

section 109A and before judgment is recovered therein the identity of the owner or driver, or both, of the motor -vehicle to which reference is made in that

section is ascertained, no further proceedings in the action shall be taken." Under

Section 9 of the High­ way Traffic Act: • . • "unless such mo­ tor vehicle was without the owner's consent in the possession of some per­ son other than the owner, other than the person driving such motor vehicle living with and a member of the fam­ ily shall be deemed ... " In other words all he has to do here is to show it was without his consent. I had a case in the Supreme Court recently, an appeal, in which the Chief Justice said it was not clear in this

section whether the onus of proof that the car was in the possession of a per­ son without the consent of the owner was on the owner or on the person making the charge. He did not think it was clear. MR. MERCER: That is a good way to make it-makes more business for you and me. MR. BROWNE: It is clear in the

section I just read. There is no ex­ ception to this here . It is only reason­ able when someone has your car with­ out your consent. It is not fair you should be held responsible, However, I think the reason for this here is, if the owner were shielding the driver. The difficulty, I think, arises out of the old common law rule of master and servant. MR. CURTIS: Do you suggest any amendmenG

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 853 MR. BROWNE: It has just occurred to me- MR. HOLLETT: Would not that be a question for the judge or jury, without stipulating here-If that were left out altogether what would be the result? MR. BROWNE: If that were left out it would give the man the right to raise that as a defense. MR. MERCER: Confusion worse confounded. MR. HOLLETT: It is not neglect or anything on his part. MR. CURTIS: They must have got­ ten that clause straight out of some other Act. Suppose we let it stand. MR. BROWNE: I think that whole

section really needs to be gone over. On motion 109-F (1), and (4) stand. On motion Clause ll0 and 111 car­ ried. MR. CURTIS: The points now are Clause 109F (1), (3), and (4): Motion that the Committee report progress and ask leave to sit again, carried. Bill No. 31-A Bill, "An Act to Amend the Law Relating to the Frus­ tration of Contracts." Motion, that the committee report having passed the bill without amend­ ment, carried. Bill No. 34-A Bill, "An Act to Amend the City of Corner Brook Act, 1955." MR. SMALLWOOD: This is only a temporary bill effective until the City of Corner Brook Charter comes into effect.

MR. BROWNE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question-Arc !hey going to levy the tax annually or semi­ annually like in St. John's? HON. S. J. HEFFERTON (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Supply): That I do not know. MR. BROWNE: It does help to have it twice a year instead of just once. If they have to pay all taxes just after Christmas it would be pretty hard on people. MR. HEFFERTON: I do not know what provision is made in the Chaner, but I believe it is twice a year. Motion, that the committee report having passed this bill without amend­ ment, carried .

Bill No. 35-"An Act to Establish the Board of Trustees of the New­ foundland Museum." MR. BROWNE: May I ask a ques­ tion-There used to be a lot of coins in the museum, are they still pre­ served? MR . SMALLWOOD: Coins, Stamps and a lot of things have gone. HON. M. M. l\fURRAY (Minister of Provincial Affairs) : There are wmc coins. The collection is by no 111c,111s complete. They disappeared through­ out the years. MR. BROWNE: H would be easy to make a collection of coins. I be­ lieve people would be glad to give them. I remember the collection given by Mr. W. A. Monroe. MR .

SMALLWOOD: The coins ancl stamps disappeared. Motion, the committee report J1av­ ing passed this bill without amend­ ment, carried.

854 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS On motion the Committee · rose to 1 eport progress and ask leave to sit ag·aiu. Mt·. Deputy-Sp eaker returned to the Chair. MR. NORMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has con­ sickred the matters to it referred, and passed the following IJills without amendment-Bills No. :ll, 34 and 35. On motion report received, bills or­ dered read a third time on tomorrow. MR. NORMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Commillce of the Whole has consid­ ered the matters to it referred and has passed Bill No. 38 with some amendments.

On motion report received, bill or­ dered read a third time on tomorrow. MR. NORMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Commillee of the Whole has consid­ ered the mailers to it referred and on Bill No. 20 and Bill No. 33 has made some progress and asks leave to sit again. On motion report received, commit­ tee un.lere<l Lu sit again on tomorrow. Committee of Supply: On motion Mr. Deputy-Speaker left the Chair. Mr. Norman, Chairman of Commit- tee of Supply. Pu!Jlic Works-lX­ !)07-14- MR. SMAI.LWOOD: Mr.

Chairman, !Jcforc we leave Heading 907, I cannot think of a !Je11er point under the Heading of the Department of Public Works to say what I am a!Jout to say than this one, 907: We arc going to ask the House to imert in every heading a ne.w ,•ote, the same in each depar.tment. To il­ lustrate-If the Committee would turn to page 44, vote 901, which now reads as follows: 901-02-01 travelling, 901- 02:02 office. Now it will be submitted in this way: -01 travelling -02 car al­ lowance and -03 office.

In this par­ ticular case it would read-901-02-01 travelling $1,000; 901-02-02 car allow­ ances $500 and 901-02-03 office $5!i7. We are going to ask the committee to do that throughout the departmental votes, under every heading. So that the effect would Ile that each minister of the Crown would then have voted to him by the House the sum of $500 a year, roughly $10 a week to cover car expenses. He will not be entitled to draw the mileage that he is entitled to· draw now. And he will not be en­ titled to draw any gasoline as he is entitled to do now.

This $500 will be paid to him in lieu of all else, in lieu of the mileage to which he has always been entitled and to which all civil servants arc entitled. I may say that this amount is Jess than some civil ser­ vants are entitled to draw and do draw, This is to be a flat rate of $,iOO and it is in lieu of (

a) the road mih!age which is around 14c. a mile outside the city and (

b) the gallonage of fifteen gallons a week which a min­ ister is entitled to draw. He will no longer, if this passes, be entitled to d·raw anything but this average of ten dollars a week. That is for the use of his own private car on public busi­ ness in or out of St. John's, within the province and the gasoline which· he must use in his own car while on pub­ lic business. I do not propose to draw that amount nor any of it, in view of the fact that I am using one of the of­ ficial cars. MR. HOLLETT: There. are two points which strikes me oClhand (J:),

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 855 I am glad that the government has admitted the impropriety of the former method of indemnifying themselves and (2) actually I think the $500 will be fair. I would not say it would probably be sufficient, but it is fair. The only thing that strikes me is that the vote for $500, like all votes, might be exceeded. Is there any way to stop that? Or how far can they go beyond the $500? They can do that with all other votes . I am wondering if they could do it with that? MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Chairman, I have two things to say in reply: ,-ve do not for one moment admit any im­ propriety in the regulations as they stood, as they stand up to this mo­ ment, i.e., the road mileage rule which has been in effect for a great many vears. It was in effect since we took ~ffice and it was in effect during the lifetime of the Commission of Govern­ ment . It applied to and applies to this moment to all civil servants ancl also to Ministers of the Crown.

I would venture to say that when the Leader of the Opposition was a stipen­ diary magistrate and he went in his own private car on public business­ anyway he was entitled to mileage. I would say when the honourable and learned member for St. John's ,-vest ever travelled when he was a puhlic servant he too was entitled to draw it- Well, he was entitled to draw it, and every civil servant is entitled to draw it and ministers of the Crown are entitled to draw it. That being so for a great many years, at least twenty­ five or thirty years, we admit no im­ propriety in that.

That is still the regulations but it will no longer apply to ministers of the Crown. It will con­ tinue to apply to civil servants. Nor do we admit any impropriety in Minis­ ters of the Crown drawing up to fif. teen gallons of gasoline a week. But this will replace both as far as min­ isters are concerned. Now secondly, it is to be a flat amount of $500 per year, no more and no less-no more and no less for each minister. MR. BROWNE: Mr. Chairman, the Premier won't admit any impropriely, but I suggest to him there is a great difference between civil servants and ministers .

Civil servants have to go down where they are told. Inspector in the Department of Education or any other department could not be ex­ pected to go at his own expense whe11 sr nL to Conception llav or Bona vista Day or any other Day. But a Minislcr does not have to leave his office in the same way that civil servants do, their duties arc principally in their offices. I do not see how they can justify the trclllenclous alllount of mileage that they have built up as ministers . For instance, take lhc De­ partment of Provincial Affairs, 750 galJons, at twenty miles to the gallon it would be fifteen thousand miles.

How could the Minister of Provincial Affairs have used up that amount of mileage travelling from his ofrice to the museum next door. Now when we had this before the Premier said he was a liaison officer. Ilut how could he have gone this tremendous clislancc. It seems to me there is impropriety in the ministers having been given lhis power. I don't see how they could do it. It has not been shown that it was properly done. Now in regard to the road mileage that civil servants get, they get mile• age because that is their work. It was necessary to do something like that.

I think they should bring in a relroac­ tivc bill to justify the mi11is1crs in what they have done. Anyone can see they had no right to do it.

856 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Now, Sir, in ragard to the point raised hy my honouralilc friend, the Leader of the Opposition, this vote can he exceeded the same as any other vote. Only yesterday the Premier told us that any vote in any department can be over-spent providing it is done with countervailing savings from some­ thing else. He told us it could not go from one department to another, but from one vote lo another. Therefore to vote five hundred dollars does not mean a thing. It can go up as high as you like.

There is nothing we can do about it except to protest against it, and in Opposition in the future keep a vigilant check on the actions of the ministers in the way they handle this vote. There have to be rules drawn up as to how it is going to be done. How arc you going to do this now? It is all very well to bring it in here and say 1hat in regard to 1hc ministers there will be an item for travelling expenses, office expenses and an auto­ mobile allowance of five hundred dol­ lars. How is that to be done. Are they to be given the $!i00 straight. MR. Sl\·IALLWOOD: Yes. MR.

BROWNE: I think that is the best way to do it. Give the $500 on the salary and say that is it. You won't find the mileage pile up in the same way. MR. S:\fALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, the honouralile and learned gentleman seems to me to imply that ministers arc not e111i1led to get mileage. I hope he did not mean to imply that. The fact of the matter is that the mileage rule outside the city (it does not apply within the city) is equ~lly applicable to civil servants and ministers. It was drawn by all the Commissioners.

All lhe Commissioners drew the mileage 011 their personal cars whenever lhey went outside the limits of the City of St. John's. For ten or twelve or fif. teen years they ran Newfoundland, and they were then the Ministers of the Crown. MR. BROWNE: How does the Pre. mier know that? MR. SMALLWOOD: I know it. It applied to them ·and it applies to us, until we pass this, if we do. It applies at -this moment to the Ministers of the Crown, and not only that but it ap• plies to every civil servant. If we do pass this now it will still apply to civil servants. I want that pex:fectly clear. In fact, it has been drawn.

Ministers of the Crown have drawn it on occas­ sions. Dr. Pottle drew it regularly. It was car.ried on by the Commission of Government. In the second place I want it clearly understood that this five hundred dol­ lars a year, which is about -ten dollars a week, which would be the equivalent of about a hundred miles a week at reg­ ular mileage rates, for twenty-five or ~hi.rty years ministers or civil servants going outside the City of St. John's wPn· entitled to fourteen cents for every mile, if using their own private car.

Now that fourteen cents was sup­ posed ,to reimburse them for the wear and tear on their private cars and the gasoline and oil to operate the cars while on official business. So this $500 a year will entitle ministers of the Crown to drive in their own private cars on public business seventy-one miles a week. O.f course if they did not get the $500 they could draw four­ teen cents a mile, and that would cost the Crown very much more. MR. BROWNE: This covers inside the town too? MR. SMALLWOOD: This covers everything. That is all the ministers will draw and is to be regarded and

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 857 paid exactly as his salary. In other words he cannot overdraw his salary. I am replying now to the point made by the honourable and learned mem­ ber when he said votes can •'.le exceed­ ed by countervailing savings. That i! true. But ministers salaries cannot be increased. This $500 a year is to be precisely like a minister's salary. It is to be paid to him in a lump sum, it is no more and no less. It is the same thing. He won't pay income tax on it, I hope. If we have to pay income tax on it we will rescind it next session and go back to the fourteen cents a mile.

Now there is one other point-The honourable gentleman cannot see how a minister could pile up such mileage. If the Minister of Finance runs over to Clarenville to see a ferry being built and nms over there two or three times. MR . BROWNE : What for? MR. SMALLWOOD: Because he wants to see the ferry. MR. BROW NE: That is only curi ­ osity. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is anything but curiosity.

If I want to go over to Carbonear or to Harbour Grace a oouple of times a week to look in on the .factories •there, to keep a close check on them, as I do as Minister of Economic Development, and if I bring a couple or three other ministers with me so that they all can report back to ou.r colleagues in the Ca'Jinet. It may only take •two cars, it is true and oc. casionally we may only take one car, but if I ask three ministers or so to go visit this factory or the other or that enterprise or the other enterprise, they use •their own private cars.

Now there has been nothing to stop us up to now from just going down and get. ting a car from the pool. The govern­ ment runs the ,pool. ,,ve have a car pool ope.rated in the Department of Hea·lth. Th~re is nothing to stop a mdnister at any time from phoning down and asking them to send up a car from the pool. It is the property of the government, and it is operated by the government, and if a Minister of -the Crown wants the use of a pool car he has it. But he won't now, be­ cause this is in lieu of everything. Thb is in lieu of everything-Now the •only one who will continue to use a P'ool car is myself.

I will continue to use the "Cadillac." And if they change the "Cadillac" to another brand I will use the best car the government owns and operates. That is the one I will d rive in. I won't want a chauffeur. I prefer to d,rive myself . Jt is no use, in common sense, trying to split hairs be­ tween when a Minister of the Crown is a Minister of the Crown and when he is not . He is a Minister of the Crown, I feel, every waking hour of the day. I am Premier, and wherever I go I am still Premier and my respon­ sibility never ceases while I am awake and even when I am asleep.

The phone may ring at 2:00 o'clock in the morrning. So if anyone thinks I am the Premier only as long as I am on duty. I don't think there is any sense in trying to split a minister into two persons; when he is a Minister of the Crown and when he is not. I don't think it is practical. I don't think it is a ttempted anywhere in the world. It is a full-time job. MR. BROWN .E: Woulcl not the Pre­ mier think it would be better for him­ seJ.f to put himself on the same basis as other ministers and get a moLOr car the same as the others. The Prime Minister of Canada has the same al­ lowance. MR .

SMALLWOOD: Every Premier across Canada has a car given him, a

858 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS car and a chaufifeur. I took the trouble to find out. Now I don't want that. I just want the use, not seconded to me, just the use of one of the cars of the g·overnment pool, and I will drive it myself. I ong·ht to say this, Mr. Chairman, there are twenty-five civil servants who are drawing more as a fixed amount annually as car allowance than cabi­ net lllinisters are or will now be draw­ ing at this $500 rate. 1\-JR. BROWNE: They travel more. MR. SMALLWOOD: They don't travel half as much nor quarter as much as the average minister.

As fo-r 111yse-lf, Liley don't travel ,ten per cent as n1uch as I do. I trnvel an enormous amount. llut leaving me out, the ave rag·e minister travels far more than do Lite dvil servants who draw more. MR . BROWNE: Could you give us an illustration? MR. SMALLWOOD: I don't want to hurt any of the civil servants. I only say they draw more, they draw $600, a hu1Hlrcd dollars a year more, MR. BROWNE: Are there many drawing that? What is it paid out of. MR. SMALLWOOD: They are not in this department. MR. HOLLETT: I would like i-t to !Jc dearly understood I am not qu es­ tioning the amount of money involv­ e1l.

It was not the amount of money involved by the practice and method employed. We maintain that if it was done by Order in Council the Order in Council should be brought here and confirmed. We have no objection to ministers having a car allowance. I agree the P'remier ought. to hav e some sort of a car at his disposal. After all he is at the beck and call of all sorts of persons on all occasions. There is nothing wrong with that at all.

On the other hand I don't agree that it is wise to make a flat rate of five hun­ dred dollars when in all probability some of the ministers will have to in­ cur expenses of a thousand during the twelve months. I am not in favour of ,pinning· it down purely and simply at five hundred, when some ministers are likely to have -to pay twice as much ench year, in some cases. There are some who will not travel and others who have to travel a lot. I am not in favour of even making · that fixed amount. The only thing I objected to in the first place was the method em­ ployed in going up to this Bennet Avenue Garage.

I do think we ought lo be fair. We ought to be fair. I try lo be fair as I can. There is no reason why we should not be fair with the government. If a minister has to go over :five hundred dollars I don't sec why he should not be a,jle to be reim­ hmsed for tha-t when he •is on the business of the country. I want all the ministers to know that is the atti­ tude we take on this side. MR. SMALLWOOD: I am the only Premier in Canada who draws the same salary as his colleagues. All the other Premiers draw considerably more than their colleagues draw, more than I do, and in addition get a car and chauffeur.

I don't want a chauffeur. And I draw the same salary as my col­ leagues. If the Committee or the House wishes me not to use one of the governments cars in the car pool let ,them say so, not just one or two. MR. HOLLETT: I don't think, Mr. Chairman, there is any int ention. We all know that the Premier, with all due cr,edit to him, he has the right as Premier not only to draw a salary as Premier but also as Minister of Eco­ nomic Development. He could cer-tain­ ly. It was always done in the past.

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 859 MR. BROWNE: Never. MR. SMALLWOOD: The only ex- ception I ever heard of was Mr. Monroe. MR. HOLLETT: In my opinion it is right and proper, and has been done in other provinces across Canada, and I certainly would see no objection to rhe Premier. He has elected to take one salary. I give him due credit. Therefore he ought to be entitled to a car and a car allowance. I don't want to be misunderstood.

Anyway all I am saying is lhat no minister who is in th e ser vice of the Crown and has to take expensive and Jong _journeys across the country now and then should be limited to five hundred dollars simply because this matter has been aired . MR. BROWNE: In regard to Pre­ miers having a second office drawing mo salaries, it did not happen in Mr. Monroe's time and it did not happen in his successor's either. MR. SMALLWOOD: The first ex. ception I ever knew to that 1·ule was Mr. Monroe.

He was Prime Minister and President of the Board of Educa. tion, which was the title by whioh the p1esent Minister of Education was then known, he was president of the Board of Education. He drew no salary for that second portfolio. But all other ministers before that always did. If they filled two portfolios and there was a salary for each they drew both. Sir Richard Squires did it, of course, and all ministers. MR. BROWNE: Not since Alder­ dice. MR. SMALLWOOD: Alderdice was the last one in office. Shortly after Mr.

Aldcnlice took over Newfoundland was on the rocks, and shortly after­ wards went into receivership. If Mr. Aldcrdice did not draw two salaries an credit to him. But he was enlitlc<l to do it. That is the point. And all ministen of the Crown who fill two portfolios arc entitled to do it, and I am entitled Lo do it. MR. DROWNE: So is the Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. SMALLWOOD: Certainly that is so. And for almost two years I was Minister of 1:inunce, Minister of Econ­ omic Development and Premier and clrcw one salary. I was Minister of Mines and Resources, I think a year or so. I did not draw any salary.

I am not boasting of that. That is the way we do it. That is all. But what I mean is, there has been so much talk made of a drop of gasoline we have taken. Now just one final point. in reply to the Honourable Leader of the Op· position, and don't think l don't ap• preciate the kindly i-emarks he has made, I do, But he is quite wrong when he says he can't see how we diet pass an order in Council. Let me in­ form him now that we could at a Cabinet meeting tomorrow morning (there will be a Cabinet meeting to· monow morning) we could make the mileage not fourteen but fifteen cents or thirteen cents.

That is lawful I assure the Committee. We can change that at any time by order in council, any time we like. We could pass an order in council that all ministers are to draw up to fifteen gallons a week in lieu of mileage. That is Jawlul. MR. BROWNE: How was it done? MR. SMALLWOOD: By simple or­ der in council. MR. HOLLETT: You don't have to table the order in council? MR. SMALLWOOD: No.

860 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS MR. HOLLETT: There is no need of any House of Assembly at all. MR. SMALLWOOD: Perhaps we pass eight hundred or a thousand or­ ders in council a year. If this were :111 to be tabled here and became pub lie property the public would be dam­ aged very seriously. Not by every or­ der in council, of course not. But if one were tabled why not all, and if all must be tabled where is the privacy of Cabinet meetings Where is the secrecy of cabinet government?

We are paying out money all the time by or­ der in council. vVe are affecting the course of the budget and budget ex­ penditure every day the government meets. The mere fact that an order in c0uncil directs payments does not mean it has to be tabled. It never was in history-not in history. MR. BROWNE: Mr. Chairman, it is presumed that there is some ,•ote in the estimates somewhere to cover the mileage, I take it? MR. BROWNE: Is there a Treas­ ury Rule to that effect? MR. SMALLWOOD: Of course there is a Treasury Rule.. and Order in Council. We have the original or­ der in council.

We have the original treasury rule. \Ve have that. Now probably the actual cost for that is meant in each vote out of the vote for travelling. Probably that is where it comes from. H does not have to be specifically earmarked as such. Mr. Chairman, if we might dispose first of Public Works, there are only two or three heads left. Then I would move to reopen the departments up to now and insert the amount for eaoh minister. On motion 907 carried. MR. HlGGJNS: Mr. Chairman, that 908-01, this grant to the St. John's Municipal Council, this has been fixed for many, many years now has it not? MR.

SPENCER: A new one was MR. SMALLWOOD: No, there is added, 908-09: not. MR. BROWNE: There must be some vote to cover the mileage out­ side the City for civil servants. One can umlc rsland how it can be altered and varied according to expenditure increases or decreases, but to open up a new charge there should have to be some vote, such as a token vote, we see here so often. There must be something to charge it up to. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is travelling. But it is never earmarked. It is ob­ vious.

The committee reads the esti­ mates every year. v\There will they find in the estimates the legislative author­ ity to pay fourteen cents to civil ser­ vants. MR. HIGGINS: Grant to Bowring Park Committee. Yes, I recall that. The thought occurs to me, Sir, that now as the Committee well knows the area of St. John's has increased greatly certainly over the past five years. In the past ten years the city has grown almost a third if not more-and I was wondering if the government does in­ tend to recognize that growth. Is there any likelihood that the grant will be increased as time goes on? MR.

SMALLWOOD: It seems to me if it is ever to be increased it ought to be as a result of somewhat formal dis­ ~msions hPtween the government and the council, and not just in a casual sort of way. I would not say it is im­ possible.

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 861 MR. HIGGINS: I dont want to commit myself to anything. I have indicated many times in the House for the past few years that the St. John's Municipal Council and the City of St. John's has been treated very generously by this government. When certain sources of the revenue tax field were taken from them due to the changed setup, the government did come through rather generously in transitional grants and other things.

But I would like to think that the Premier meant exactly what he said­ the door is never barred, if negotia­ tions should be opened there might be a chance of a sympathetic hearing. MR. SPENCER: Mr. Chairman, if I might add a word here-This does not cover the actual expenditure on behalf of Historic Sites and Monuments un­ der this heading. The Department of Public Works has absorbed into their work several rather inexpensive items for historical sites and monuments.

I might inform the committee, and I am quite happy to do it, take the case of the marking of Cormack's Trail in Random Sound near Millertown Brook, I think it is, there we built a bridge across the waterway to Random •Island. At the point we erected a very special monument. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is about three hundred miles from Hellam Is­ land Bridge . MR. SPENCER: Very well, Mr.

Chairman, we did arrange to pick up special granite stone, at the request of the Historic Sites and Monuments Committee and have it erected at or near the site where Cormac was sup­ posed to have set foot in that sound to enter on his historic trip across the Island. The committee erected a small block on that. We have already done several others. Now the busi- ness of finding that stone and trans­ porting it was not charged to the His­ toric Sites and Monuments. We just absorbed it in our regular work. That is why that $5,000 was not spent.

Then there is still another one, that is to mark the estate at V\i'hitbourne, there is to be a monument there in connec­ tion with the memorial of the late Sir Robert Bond. Very considerable re­ search wmk was done on that. Plans were made, etc. That was not com­ pleted. That is why this vote was there, because the work was done and not actually charged to that vote. MR. BROW'NE: Under what vote was that done? -MR.

SPENCER: It was just simply absorbed into Public Works, if flying columns and others going about the Island happened to come across a granite bolder they arranged to put it aboard a trailer and bring it in. MR. SMALLWOOD: Probably tear­ ing up the Southside Road. MR. BROWNE: Probably we can take some of the boulders out. MR. SMALLWOOD: We are miss­ ing a good chance to get some historic monuments. On motion 908 carried. 909: MR. BROWNE: Is the minister in a position to tell us what that project at Placentia has cost. Because I have heard there was a great deal of ex­ pense in connection with it.

How does it compare with the revenue in oper­ ating the ferry? MR. SPENCER: I could not give you an account of the revenue. It is in the hands of an operating company. I don't know anything about that. I do know the expenses. There has been unforeseen expenses there, the reason

862 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS for that is that in getting those docks designed we had to take the advice of the best people we could find in the matter. To that end we took the ad­ vice regarding Placentia and Jerseyside of our good friend, Captain Whelan, who was born and bred in that area, and knows that area better than most people. Then we had a dock designed for it, but we have found that certain things , certain parts of that area are not working out to the best advantage. So that we have had to learn by a sort of trial and error.

So much so that this year because of the experience we asked the aid of the Provincial Govern­ ment of Nova Scotia, who have had a tremendous amount of ferry experience and docks . They very kindly agreed, at my request, to send us down a man to go over and help us with that work. He has come and made a report and we hop e to work it out on the basis of some of his advice. These people have a wealth of experience in ferries,

whereas for the last thirty years or so there has been no ferry dock operated in this Island. This vote is to take care of these various ferry landings. MR. BROWNE: Could the minister be a little more specific-Is there go­ ing to be radical changes? MR. SPENCER: It is just a matter of stabilizing the docks . Ice and tide conditions there are factors we had actually to learn about by experience. MR. BROWNE: Was not the ferry itself in difficulties. MR. SPENCER: No that was not body whom we knew around here had any experience in the operation of -such ferries.

With the result that in learn­ ing they did some damage to the docks, which have been repaired this year. I do not think the officials of the Department of Public Works fore­ see that there will be any similar dam­ age in the future. The estimated cost of operating the ferry is, I think, $32,000 a year. It should show a con­ siderable profit on its operations. As far as the damage was concerned, it was the breaking off of a few piles. The boat itself was never damaged. On motion 909 carried. On motion the Committee reverted to the Executive Council. MR. SMALLWOOD: I move the amendment, Mr.

Chairman: 302-02-01 Travelling .$500, Car Allowance $500, Office $80. On motion item as amended car­ ried. MR. SMALLWOOD: Under Head­ ing IV/Department of Finance 401-02. I move a similar amendment. On motion Item 401-02 as amended carried. Department of Provincial Affairs 501-02-A similar amendment: On motion item 501-02, as amended, carried. Department of Education 601-02: A similar amendment. so. On motion item 601-02, as amended HON. G. J. POWER (Minister of Finance) : I might be able to assist the honourable gentleman.

The Pla­ centia ferry when put in operation was, I think, the first ferry of its kind ever operated in Newfoundland. No- carried. Department of Attorney General 701-02, a similar amendment, On mo.tion item 7.01-02, as amended, carried.

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 863 Department of Mines and Resources, 801-02, a similar amendment. On motion item 801-02,as amended, carried. MR. BROWNE: Mr. Chairman, may I say a word here about anolher subject in regard to this particular vote. MR. SMALLWOOD: There is noth­ ing to stop it. MR. BROWNE: Well, Mr. Chair­ man, this is rather irrelevant on the particular vote on the minister's car allowance, but it may affect his travel­ ling-I noticed a letter in the paper tonight complaining about the burning of areas for blueberries. If the min­ ister has not seen that I can send him over a copy of it.

I understand from reading that letter that it is a serious matter in this country to be burning land over for blueberries, when we have very little soil, and it prevents the regrowing of blueberries. ·I wonder if he would give consideration to that? DR. ROWE: I would make one comment-For every person who pro­ tested against that burning we have perhaps half a dozen who demand it. Now actually the minister can only be guided by advisors in the matter, as my honourable friend will agree.

And the concensus of opinion is that while there is some danger, while it has to be done with discretion particularly in rocky areas where the soil is just over a cliff, on the other hand a certain amount of burning actually is impera­ tive to the industry. That is the con­ census of those who studied it partic­ ularly in Newfoundland where we have such tremendous natural refor­ estation going on. MR. SMALLWOOD: Department .of Public Works, Heading 901-02, travel- ling becomes $1,000 instead of $1,500 and car allowance $500 and office $557. On motion item as amended car-­ ried. MR. SMALL WOOD: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps before moving on we could have a ten minute recess and then take up heading Ten. On motion the Committee recessed for ten minutes, after which Mr. Chair­ man, returned to ,the Chair. X-Department of Haelth: Items 1001 through 1023 on motion carried. 1024: MR. BROWNE: I would, Mr. Chairman, like to ask the Minister the position in regard to the mental hos­ pital at the present time. I was Chair­ man of the Board out there about fif­ teen years, and it was always in a most congested condition.

At that time, of course, as you know, it was very dif­ ficult to get any new building done, but one was started, and a nurses' home was started and the building was completely renovated. Now is there still a pressing need for further accom­ modations? As I understand, this is something which cannot be cured like Tuberculosis. It was only today I read somewhere where a doctor said he did not believe in these modern treatments. Although there has been plenty of evidence that these treatments have been good in some cases. The pressure must still be great, and a great many people must still be trying to get in there.

Every now and then someone comes along to me telling me of a case where a person is in need of being put in the mental hospital. It is not that someone wants to get rid of anybody, but wants to get a person where he or she can be looked after. An ordinary layman

864 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS might be able to do something about taking care of a person with a broken leg or a headache but can do nothing for a person who is insane. Therefore, it seems to me, it is essential there should always be consideration given to ways of finding accommodations for persons who are suffering like that. MR. HEFFERTON: The situation is certainly acute. There is no ques• tion about that. At the present time we have about eight hundred in the Mental Hospital and about 125 in the Orthopaedic Hospital. Last summer we did manage an additional ward in which we put forty patients.

That re­ lieved the situation for a time, but it is not a permanent solution by any means. Last year one of the wards was completely renovated and another one is nea1·ing completion at the present time. Also at the present time there is an extension being put on for kitchen facilities, and plans are being formulated for the addition of a wing on to the present building. That will undoubtedly have to come within the next year or so. MR. HOLLETT: Mr. Chairman, there is a point I would like to make.

You will remember that a couple of years ago there was an enquiry into certain things which happened in the mental hospital. The enquiry was held before the late Mr. Hunt. As far as I recollect, most of the people involved in that enquiry were found blameless and no charges were made against them . However they have been laid off. As far as I know nothing has been done to right any wrong which may have been done to them .

I know for a fact that about two or three months ago all these people had paid back to them small cheques of sixty, seventy, eighty dollars, as the case might be which was still due them from the time they were laid off, a year or so ago. Now in the case of most of these people who were laid off nothing had been found against them nor against their character, and as they have been paid up any money owed to them, would not the govern­ ment ,be duty bound to put these peo­ ple back in the positions they then held.

I know from this account here there is presently on the waiting list, or was in 1954, some 513 patients, waiting to get into the mental hospital. Surely therefore there should be some means found of putting back these attendants into the position which they formerly filled, or higher ones as the case might be. If it was found, as it was found, that they were blameless as far as the charges were made against them. I notice the Minister of Health shaking his head. If they were not blameless then they should have been prosecuted. They were not . MR.

SMALLWOOD: There is a big gulf between being blameless and be­ ing guilty enough to be prosecuted. MR. HOLLETT: As far as the pub­ lic is concerned it is either one or the other, I think they are doing these men a great injustice by not reinstating them in the jobs they then filled. If it were proven or could be proven they had done something they should not have done, the proper thing would be to bring it out in the open so that the public could see. Right now a goodly number of the public are un­ der the impression some of these men had been prosecuted.

I would like to know if something might be done to rectify the position? MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to say a single word that would add lo lite difficulties of any of the men concerned. A number of them have been put into government

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 865 jobs. Let me put it this way, few if any of them have gotten their jobs back in the mental hospital but some of them have succeeded in getting jobs in other branches of the government, and still others of them have not. We were most anxious to be fair. We were most anxious to lean over backwards in our attempt to be fair. But we are confronted by the fact ,that there was certain evidence against certain peo­ ple, not enough to warrant taking ac­ tion against them in court but too much to allow us to just restore them in the government service.

Then fin­ ally there was this point-If a man was suspended and someone else put in his job , what were you going to do, especially if there was anything at all against him, not perhaps enough to prosecute, but something; were you go­ ing to dismiss the man who had gone into the job and put bac!lc into it the man against whom there was some­ thing, although not enough to prose­ cute? MR. HOLLETT: Mr.

Chairman, while on that point I would draw the Honourable the Premier's atten­ tion to the fact that only two or three months past the chief witness that was used at that time to get evidence relative to charges made against these men, was himself accused of wrong doing in the ·hospital and convicted, and, I believe, fined and dismissed and may have gone to jail as far as I know. However he was t,he chief witness used against these men, and now it turus out this chief witness himself ,has been brought up oefore the courts on a charge simHar to the ones of which the other people were accused.

That makes it look all the more glaring 1n the eyes of the public. I would stress the point ,to the hon­ ourable minister and to the Honour­ ab le the Premier that something should be done to rectify what I con- sider, or appears to be, at any rate, a wrong or an injustice to these men. After all a ma.n has only one life and it is unlfair he shouid be living under a cloud put there by the government ~f that cloud rould be removed . Mind you I am not blaming the government for doing what they did. They were probably justified.

But if they have found since there are justificatioru; for puttLng ~he men back I do wish they would consider i,t, MR. HEFFERTON: That has been done. MR. BROWNE: Mr. Chairman, while speaking about the Mental Hos­ pital being over-crowded I forgot to draw attention to the statement in the report of I 954. I think it is a pity we cannot see the report for 1955. The m£nister must already have it in his possession, information that will go into the report. MR. HEFFERTON: It takes about six months bef.ore we get the informa­ tion. MR.

BROWNE: This report says -The waiting list is up to 513, i.e. an increase of fijfty per cent in one year. So that the -problem of choosing pati• ents for admittance can only be des_ cribed as impossible. Now there is a fine institution. H i~ well equipped, with a splendid staff and yet they •have not the accommo_ elations. They could do twice as much work if they had accommodations for patients. I think it is a maHer which requires urgent consideration. I would be wilHng to wager there are almost 800 waiting now for admittance into that institution. MR.

SMALLWOOD: We have un­ der active consideration the question of another wing. MR. BROWNE' How big

866 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS MR. SMALLWOOD: Big as the money that can be found, with all the other things we have to do. There are so many urgent problems. This is one of them, a very urgent one. If you had two men walk into your of­ fice with a patient and say: "alright, here he is. We just got oEf the train." Lf you had that happen a few times you would realize how urgent it is. That happened to me more than once. The patient was brought right into my office at night while I was working bhere. It is urgent. The population is growing. The incidence is not increasing out of promotion to the population.

The stress and strain of modern life is such that many fall by the wayside. MR. BROWNE: Especially in the last seve11 years. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is right , since the excitement of good govern• me11t. They are not used to it. MR. BROWNE: There was a 50 per cenl increase in one year on the waiting list. 011 motion 1024 can'iP-rl: 1027 car• ried: Items 1028 through 1032 car· ried: On motion the committee rose to re• port progress and ask leave to sit again: MR. NORMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of Supply have c011S'idered the matters to it referred and passed items of Current Expenditure Public ·works, Items 907-03-11 lhl'ough 909· Departmen .t of Health, Item 1001 thr-ough 1032. On motion report received-Com• mittee ordered to sit again on tomor. row: MR. NORMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Su-pp'1y have considered the matters to it referred and have amend ed the following items of cur. r ent expenditure. 401-02, 501-02, 601-02, 701-02, 801-02, 901-02, 1001-02: On motion report received-Com­ mittee ordered lo sit again on tomor­ row.

Third Reading of Bill, "An Act to Amend the Poultry and Poultry Pro­ ducts Act." On motion bill read a third time, order ed passed and title 1:ie as on the order ,paper. Third Reading of Bill, "An Act to Amend the Social Assistance Act, 1954." On motion bill read a third time, ordered passed and tiHe be as on the order paper. Third reading of Bill, "An Act Fur­ l.her to Amend the School Attendance Act." On motion bill read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the order paper. Third Reading of Bill, "An Act to F.mpowcr the St.

John's Municipal Council to Raise a Loan for Municipal P'urposes by the Issue of Bonds." On motion bill read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the order paper. Third Reading of Bill, "An Act to Restrict the Use of White Cane to Illind Persons." On motion bill read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the order paper: Third Reading of Bill, "An Act to Amend the Frobisher Limited (Con­ firmation of Agreement) Act, 1955."

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 867 On motion bill read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the order .paper: Third Reading of Bill, "An Act Fnrlher to Amend the Gasoline Tax Act." On motion bill read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the order paper. Third Reading oJ' Bill, "An Act to Amend the St. John'.s Memorial Sta0 dium Act." On motion bill read a bhird time, ordered passed and title !>e as on the order paper. Third Reading of Bill, "An Act to Ailllend the City of St. John's Act." On motion Bill read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the order paper.

Third Reading of Bill, "An Act to <\mend and Consolidate the Law Re­ lating to the Establishment of Com­ munity Councils." On motion bill read a third time, 01 dered passed and title be as on the order paper: MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I move · that all further orders of the day do 5tand deferred, and the House at its rising do adj_ourn until lOmor­ row, Wednesday, at 3.00 of the Clock. WEDNESDAY, May 2, 1956. The House met at 3:00 of the Clock in the afternoon, pursuant to ad­ journment. Presenting Petitiori5 MR. BROWN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the electors covering all the settle­ ments from S,veet Bay to King's Cove in the D.istrict of Bonavista South . The petition requests that consideration be given to the granting of a sum · of money which would enable the high-­ roads division to recondition and wid­ en the

section of road from the head of Southern Bay to King's Cove. This

section of road. as the petition­ ers point out, serves the whole popu­ lation from Musgravetown to Bona­ vista, and forms an important link in the lives of the people in various com­ munities in that area which is a large producer of timber and lumber of various kinds as well as producing farm products which are being dis­ tribu ted back and forth over the road practica lly every season of the year.

The production of codfish, salmon and lobs ter as well as other products pro­ duced between Southern Bay and King's Cove amounts to many hun­ dreds of thousands of dollars annu­ ally, and finds its way over this road cnroute to various ma1·ket centres . Mr. Speaker, I am personally ac­ quainted with more than ninety per cent of the voters whose sign a tu res ap­ pe ar on this petition. As a native as well as a representat{ve for the dis­ tri ct of Bonavista South, I have mo­ tored over the road on many occasions. I feel it is most urgent that the re­ quest of these petitioners be very fav­ ourably considered.

I have pleasure, Sir, in supporting the petition and ask leave to place it on the Table of this House and it be forwarded to the department to which it relates. On motion petition received for ref­ erence to the department concerned. Presenting Reports of Standing and Select Committees None. Giving Notice of Motion None.

868 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Giving Notice of Questions None. Answers to Questions HON. J. R. SMALLWOOD: (Prime Minister) : Mr. Speaker, I have here the answer to a question that was put before me by the Honourable and Learned Member for St. John's West. I don't remember if it was a formal question or one merely expressed or­ ally in the House. At all events this is the information-The Annual Re­ ports of NALCO together with the audited Balance Sheet for the year past. MR. BROWNE: Mr.

Speaker, on the Order Paper of April 19, I ad­ dressed a question to the Honourable Minister of Economic Development asking if there is an agreement signed between the Government ::me! a com­ pany known as "Acllers." Question No. 51 (above) : MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, on the Order Paper already, I think, is notice of a Loan and Guarantee Bill which is to come before the House. In that Bill is the vote or loan to Adlers. Ou that occasion then I will table whatever information there has to be tabled and give whatever information there has to be given. MR. BROWNE: Thank you!

Now on the Order Paper of April 30 there was a question addressed to my honourable friend, the Minister of Mines and Resources regarding Con­ solidated Pulp and Paper, and on Ap­ ril 27 I addressed a question to the Honourable Minister of Public Works regarding amounts spent in electoral districts. HON. DR. F. W. ROWE (Minister of Mines and Resources) : Mr. Speaker, the answer to the question regarding Consolidated Pulp and Paper will be here tomorrow. I must apologize to my honourable and learned friend be­ cause I have not had enough time in my office this last two or three days actually to arrange it.

W'hile I am on my feet, a day or two ago the Honourable Leader of the Opposition addressed a question to me regarding logging camps. The answer to that too is that it is in course of preparation. I just put a call through about five minutes before the House opened this afternoon. I hope to have these answers tomorrow, and that I be­ lieve wi11 be the answers to all ques­ tions addressed to me and my depart­ ment. HON. E. S. SPENCER /Minister of Public Works) : Mr. Speaker, 'I have no answer Lhis afternoon. The ques­ tion is in my office being prepared. Orders of the Day Committee of the Whole on Var­ ious Bills.

On motion Mr. Deputy-Speaker left the Chair. Mr. Norman, Chairman of Commit­ tee of the Whole. MR. COURAGE: Mr. Chairman, I have to do something which is prob­ ably unique in any House of Parlia­ ment, having been Speaker, then come down as a private member piloting this bill. To help any honourable members who have some questions to ask-I was Chairman of the Commit.tee set up to ·consider this bill. The com­ mittee met and considered it. There did not appear to be anything whatso­ ever controversial in it, and it was re­ commended by the Committee to the House without amendment. There are

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 869 two private bills, the bill respecting the Trustee Board of the Presbyterian Church in Canada and the Architects bill. We will take this one first: A Bill, "An Act Respecting the Trus­ tee Board of the Presbyterian Church in Canada." MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chair- man, I don't think anyone wants to de­ bate this-The Presbyterian Church wants it and we are still willing and happy thev should have it. Motion that the Committee report having passed this bill without amend­ ment, carried. A Bill, "An Act to Incorporate the Newfoundland Association of Archi­ tects." MR. COURAGE: Mr.

Chairman, I was the Chairman of the Select Com­ mittee set up to consider this bill. We met twice on this bill, two long meet­ ings, and we had representatives both for and against the bill. Certain changes in the bill have been made, with the consent of the petitioners. I will indicate these changes: The amendments are quite straightforward.

The firs-t amendment is to Clause 7, which is amended by striking out the first three lines as far as the word "hereafter" and inserting "all persons whose names are in good standing as of the date of the passing of this Act on the Registrary of the Newfoundland Association of Architects.

And any person who has made any application for admission to the Newfoundland Association of Architects as of the date of the passing of this Act and who proves to the satisfaction of the Board he is over 21 years of age, of good moral character and that he resides in Newfoundland and has bona fide prac­ ticed as an architect in Newfoundland for not less than one year preceding the incorporation of this Act and in particular that he is qualified to be admitted as a member by reason of his educational status and his knowl­ edge, proficiency, skill and experience in all matters relating to the profes, sion of architecture." Then follow the clause-"all persons hereafter admitted to membership in the Association pur­ suant to the provisions of this Act shall he members of the Association and continue as such until such mem­ bership lapses or is suspended or can• celled in accordance with the provi­ sions hereof." I may say, Mr.

Chairman, that tl1is clause was changed in order to accom­ modate the people who were praclic­ ing architecture in St. John's and who will fulfill the requirements of this clause. I am happy to inform the committee that since that time they have been accepted in the Association and were made members of the Asso­ ciation. MR. BROWNE: There is an asso• ciation at present? MR. COURAGE: There is an asso• ciation but it is not incorporated. These are the only people of whom we have any knowledge and who met the qualifications.

I may say this amendment follows word for word a similar amendment in the Certified Public Accountant's Bill. In Clause 8, sub-clause (

e) is stricken out. HON. M. M. HOLLETT (Leader of the Opposition) : Why is that stricken out? MR. HIGGINS: Too restrictive. MR. COURAGE: We felt that there might be some people here who while not British subjects could be qualified.

870 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS MR. SMALLWOOD: There is one German in the Department of Public Works. He is a brilliant architect and a vei·y fine citizen. He was the de­ signer of the fountain in front here. He is one of the most valuable acquisi­ tions this Province has made in per­ sonnel, in human material for quite a while. He is a very fine man. MR. HIGGINS: Mr. Chairman, as a member of the committee I am not particularly concerned with Dr. Stein­ berg and the fountain. The Commit­ tee, I may say, were considering people who coming here from the United States and various other places.

We felt the clause was unduly restrictive. MR. COURAGE: The committee was very strong on that point. MR. SMALLWOOD: I was not ad­ dressing myself to that point at all. I was addressing myself to the remark as to whrthPr we had any German ar­ chitects. HON. E. S. SPENCER (Minister of Public Works): Before we pass that amendment, do I understand this amendment would bar men of that calibre? MR. COURAGE: No, we have changed that. That condition did exist but it has been changed_ The next amendment is to Clause 9.

That clause will now read as follows: "Membership in the Association or temporary licenses to practice in New­ foundland may be granted to any per­ son upon such terms and subject to such conditions as the said Registra• tion Board may by Regulations pro­ vide." The rest of the clau.~e is deleted. The next change is to Clause 12-in the fourth line the word "appointed" is changed to "filled"-"may be filled by a majority vote of the mem- bers ... " The same change occurs in the next line of the clause. The same change is made in Clause 14.

The next change comes on page 10 -18 (5) "in event of expulsion an appeal shall lie with the Lieutenant­ Governor in Council." In other words the appeal was to the Association now it is to the Lieutenant-Governor-in­ Council, who may revise a decision of the Association. MR BROWNE: Is that a good idea? MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. It should lie with someone outside the imme­ diate range of the Association. MR. COURAGE: That was exactly what the Committee felt. The next change is to Clause 26- Sub-Clause (2). It was felt this was giving them too wide powers. Two is deleted and three is renumbered ac­ cordingly.

Then there are some changes here, sub-clause (e), page 13: Following the word contractor-"building firm or building corporation or bona fide member of the staff of such building contractor or building firm domiciled in Newfoundland from preparing a sketch, drawing, design, plan or speci­ fication for his or its own use as a building contractor, building firm or building corporation in the construc­ tion or alteration by himself, itself or tradesmen employed by him or by it of any building structure whether the same be proceeded with or not and ob­ taining remuneration therefor." The idea here was to make certain that certain people who were conlrac­ ·tors and firms and corporations.

Now the next change is on top of page 1.4: There is a new clause goes

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 871 in there in place of (g) , then the fol­ lowing clauses are renumbered. In other words any person who wants to prepare his own design or wants to pay somebody else whom he thinks quali­ fied to prepare a plan or design for him can do it. He does not have to go to an architect. If he wants to go to Tom Jones and believes he is a good enough man and he is satisfied, he can go to him and Tom Jones can charge him. There is a small change in (

j) That is the extent of the changes. Motion that the committee, rise, re- port progress and ask leave to sit again, carried. Mr. Depu>ty Speaker, resumed the chair. MR. NORMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has consid­ ered the matters to it referred and has passed the Bill, "An Act Respecting the Trustees Board of the Presbyterian Church in Canada" without amend­ ment. On motion report received, bill or­ dered read a third time on tomorrow. MR. NORMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has consid­ ered the Bill, "An Act to Incorporate the Newfoundland Association of Ar­ chitects, has made some progress and asks leave to sit again. On motion report received, commit­ tee ordered to sit again on tomorrow. Honourable the Minister of Munici­ pal Affairs and Supply to move the House in to a Committee of the Whole to consider a resolution in relation to a Bill, "An Act Further to Amend the Local Authorities Guarantee Act, 1952." On motion Mr. Deputy-Speaker left the Chair. HON. S. J. HEFFERTON (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Supply) : Mr.

Chairman, we are following the prac­ tice which the government has followed for some time in the bill which will be subsequently introduced. The Town of Windsor $800,000 is a guarantee for the installation of water and sewerage in their area. The Town of Lewisporte asks for a guarantee of $215,000 in the main for the extension of their water and sewerage system, es­ timated cost $185,000 and $35,000 which was a loan they requested in order that they might purchase addi­ tional machinery for generating elec­ tricity. The third item is one of S20,0DO.

The Committee will recall that last year we guaranteed a bond issue to the Placentia Town Council of sixty thousand dollars. That bond issue has not as yet been floated and a few days ago the •town council ap­ plied to us for permission to increase their original $60,000 to $80,000. Con­ sequently we are putting the $20,000 on this schedule. That is the substance of the resolu­ tions, Mr. Speaker. MR. HOLLETT: Mr.

Chairman, I rise to give our whole-hearted support to this bill. '1 personally say, due to the fact that •I am very familiar with it, both the town of Windsor and the town of Lewisporte during my years as a mag·istrate in that area I got to know very well particularly the town of Lawisporte. I understand it has had a phenominal growth during the past few years and I am quite sure that this move in order to give water and sewer­ age certainly deserves our attention and deserves this guarantee. The Town of Windsor has been hampered by lack of water and sewerage for a number of years.

Although some effort has been made in the past, up to the present

872 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS time, they have not been able to suc­ ceed. I hope and trust the guarantee of this amount will give ·them the necessary funds so that they will be able to get the water there, because the Town of Windsor, whilst it is an adjunct really to Grand Falls is growing as a result of Grand Falls and is beginning to prosper largely as a result of Grand Falls and the Grand Falls operations . I am quite happy that the Govern­ ment has seen fit to bring in this Loans and Guarantee Bill. MR. BROWNE: Mr.

Chairman, I did not quite understand what the minister said in reference to the sixty thousand dollars which was granted last year-Would he explain that again, please? MR. HEFFERTON: I said that last year we guaranteed a loan to the Pla­ centia Town Council: two of them as a matter of fact, Placentia wanted one and Jerseyside wanted one. Neither has been taken up as yet. I think they will be in the near future. MR. BROWNE: Is the twenty thou• sand included in this? MR. HEFFERTON: Yes. MR. BROWNE: Does the Placentia Council have new plans involving this expenditure? MR.

HEFFERTON: Maybe a little more expansion or a little more re• pairs. MR. BROWNE: Are they putting in a chlorination system, do you know? MR. HEFFERTON: They are talk­ ing about that too. They are also talking of lowering the outlet of Larkins Pond. ·I think the (rl)vern­ ment itself will do that because of the three councils being tied up. MR. BROWNE: I thought I read in the paper where a delegation came in from Windsor and the Government agreed to introduce legislation to per­ mit the guarantee. MR. HEFFERTON. The actual work at Windsor is supposed to start some­ where around the 20th of May. MR.

HOLLETT: May I ask if the plans drawn up last fall in connection with the water and sewerage in Wind­ sor have been approved by the Gov­ ernment? HON. E. S. SPENCER (Minister of Public Works) : Mr. Chairman, there has been very considerable discussions regarding this bond issue for the town council of Windsor as well as others my honourable colleague the Minister has introduced this afternoon. I would like to say that this matter of the Town Council of Windsor has been under consideration for several years.

Surveys have been made and several attempts made by various councils of the Town of Windsor to establish this water and sewerage system in that area. It is only by repeated effort of the present town Council of Wind­ sor, and I would like here, Mr.

Chair­ man, to pay tribute to -the zeal with which that town council has applied itself in bringing this thing to the point it has reached at the present time. lit has been my privilege to sit down with them on numerous occa­ sions in •their office at Windsor as well as to view with them the work dur­ ing ·the progress of the survey which was made and completed last year.

I repeat, the zeal with which the town council of Windsor has applied to this measure is something that really de­ serves the credit and the support which the Government is now recommending that they be given in offering to guar­ antee this bond issue.

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 873 The Town Council of 'Windsor be­ gan just upwards of forty years now, 1908 or perhaps 1907. The first cit­ izens began to settle at the Railway Station at Grand Falls and it has grown into the present Town of Wind­ sor in an unfortunately iregular man• ner, what I mean by that is that though no fault of anybody, the Town of Windsor was formed and the first council was formed (incidentally the first town council in this Island, out­ side of St. John'

s) and it was even then a very irregularly built up com­ munity, and they with all their ef­ forts were unable to control it to the extent that the town might have been properly laid out and built in some regular form. All this kind of thing has gone on for some forty years, and so it has really been quite a headache and quite a job for any community to bring in some form of regularity which they have not got. It has been surveyed and laid down and this plan which has been ap­ proved by the Department of Munici­ pal Affairs and Supply is one that is well worthy of consideration.

I again repeat that I pay tribute to the coun­ cil which has done so much, and I am happy to be a member of the govern­ ment, representing that constituency, part of which is the town of Windsor, and I shall look forward with a great deal of pleasure to seeing these people have the services they justly deserve when this water and sewerage installa­ tion is completed. On motion Resolutions carried. Motion that the Committee rise and report having passed these Resolutions carried. Mr. Deputy-Speaker resumed the Chair. MR. NORMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has consid- ered ,the matter to it referred, and has agreed to certain Resolutions and in­ structed me to report same. On motion report received. On motion Resolutions read a first time. On motion Resolutions read a second time. On motion a Bill was introduced and read a first time to give effect to these Resolutions, A Bill, "An Act Fur­ ther to Amend the Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1952." On motion Bill ordered read a sec­ ond time on tomorrow.

Honourable the Minister of Econ• omic Development to move the House into Committee of the Whole to con­ sider certain Resolutions in relations to the advancing and guaranteeing of cer­ tain loans for Tourist Development. On motion the House resolved into Committee of the ·whole to consider certain Resolutions. On motion Mr. Deputy-Speaker left the Chair. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, I feel that I can explain a lot more intelligently if I do it on the Bill. The Bill contains the actual list of the names and the amount of the loans

whereas the Resolutions merely say to certain persons and companies cer­ tain loans totalling $635,000. MR. BROWNE: Give us an ex­ planation as to why it is you are bring­ ing in these Resolutions to raise money on account of the loans. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is not to raise money. It is to enable the gov­ ernment to guarantee loans from banks to various tourist enterprises, which enterprises raise the money at the bank

874 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS on the guarantee of their loans by the gov ernment. It is not that the govern­ ment will make loans to any of these ent erprises. MR. BROWNE: Have they not al­ ready the money? MR. SMALLWOOD: They have the money from the bank, and the govern­ ment guaranteed the loans at the bank, or at least the government told the bank in each instance; if the House of Assembly confirmed it we will guar­ antee the bank loans; and in the be­ lief that the House would guarantee it the banks have made the loans. But I just want to make the point that the government are not making cash loans.

The government are mak­ ing the offer and only in approved cases that they will guarantee the bank loans if a hank will make the loans. That is what these are. I may say I feel a little awkward in doing this at the moment, I should have thought, the time to do it is on the Bill, and that the resolutions stage is a very formal one in which virtually no debate takes place, the debate tak­ ing place on the Bill itself. However, I am prepared to do it either way. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the Hon­ o,urablc the Premier is right. I think it is just to bring in the resolutions now, and have the debate on the Bili. MR.

HOLLETT: Mr. Chairman, may I put one question there-Of all these amounts, are they paid out by the banks to these various people? MR. SMALLWOOD: To the best of my knowledge and belief they have been. MR. BRO"WNE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order~! think it is in order to debate it at this stage . HON. L. R . CURTIS (Attorney General) : As to whether it is in order, I agree, but whether it is advisable or not is another matt er. MR. BROWNE: It is usually at Ottawa, certainly. How ever, I would like to ask this question-By what method does a person get a loan, get cash from the bank?

What is the pro­ cedure to be followed? MR. SMALLWOOD : That is what I would like ,to explain. 1 had intend­ ed •to do ·tha-t on the bill, but if the committee would rather have it now I am quite satisfied. What happens is this: if a man or a company decides that they wish to go into the business of catering to the ,tourist, or if being in ·that business they decide they want to expand or improve, and to do so they have not got the necessary capital, they may come to the Tourist Develop­ ment Board (now that is the Board headed by Mr. 0. L .

Vardy) and nor­ mally what happens is that the appli­ cant sits down and talks the manter over, and he is questioned closely as to exactly what it is he proposes, whe­ ther he proposes to put in cabins or motels or whatever it is to be or a restaurant, or wha.tever it is, what size it is to be, how he proposes -to equip and furnish it and a whole lot of other practical details . The Director of Tourist Development agrees and asks him to fill out the forms .

When he fills out the forms thev are brought before the Tourist Development Board, but he is the one to sign the applica­ tion and do the questioning and get the information so that when the Tour­ ist Development Board sits down later to consider the application the infor­ mation will be there, assembled infor­ ma,tion. After that happens the Tour­ ist Development Board meets, made up of ten or twelve members, consisting of people prominent in the touritt

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 875 movement, private enterprise, represen­ tatives, I believe, of the CNR and of •the Furness Withy and the Furness Red Cross, and prominent individuals around town who for years have been interested in tonrist devel­ opment, and in addition to that some Deputy Ministers, or some civil ser­ vants. -If the Tourist Development Board approves the application ,the next step is that the application goes before the Tourist Loan Board, an entirely dif­ ferent organization, which is made up of deputy ministers of the Crown, some five or six deputy ministers of the Crown, •the Chairman being Mr.

Pushie, the Director General of Econ­ omic Development. It does not come to the Tourist 1Loan Board until it passes first and is recommended by the Tourist Development Board. If the Tourist Loan Board recommends it, it then comes to ,the Cabinet and the Cabinet has the final say ahout it. The committee must understand tha-t it does not come to the Tourist Loan Board until it first passes the Tourist Development Board and it never comes to the Cabinet until the Tourist Loan Board has passed on it.

In other words, any application that comes to the Cabinet has already passed two screenings, first the Tourist Development and secondly the Tour­ ist Loan Board. The Cabinet, if it has passed two Boards and has been accepted and been approved, we do not hesitate too much about accept· ing the recommendations and passing an order in council that the guarantee be given. Motion, that the committee rise and report having agreed to these resolu­ tions, carried. Mr. Deputy-Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. NORMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of •the "\\Thole has agreed to certain resolutions and has instruct­ ed me to report same, On motion report received and adopted. On motion resolutions read a first and second time. Motion, that a bill be introduced and read a first time, to give effect to these resolutions, carried. A Bill, "An Act to Amend the Tour­ ist Development Loan Act," on motion read a first time. Motion, that this Bill be read a sec­ ond time on tomorrow, carried. A Bill "An Act Further to Amend the Public Utilities Act," on motion read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

A Bill, "An Act Further to Amend the Local School Tax Act, 1954," on motion read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. A Bill, "An Act Further to Amend the Education Act," 011 motion read a first timr, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Third reading of Bill, "An Act to Amend the Law Relating to the Frus­ tration of Contracts," On motion read a third time, ordered passed and title to be as on the Order Paper. Third reading of Bill, "An Act to Amend the City of Corner Brook Act, 1955." On motion read a third time, ordered passed and title to be as on the Order Paper.

Third reading of Bill, "An Ar.t to Establish -the Board 0f Trustees of the Newfoundland Museum." On motion read a third time, ordered passed and title to be as on the Order Paper.

876 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Third reading of Bill, "An Act to Amend An Agreement Relating to a Loan to be Raised by Wabush Lake Railway Company Limited Made in Pursuance of the Wabush Lake Rail­ way Company Limited (Loan Guar­ antee) Act, 1955, the Act No 1, of 1955 (Second Session) Between ,the Lieu­ tenant-Governor in Council, and Wa­ bush Lake Railway Company Limited and Canadian Javelin 'Limited." On motion read a third time ordered passed and title to be as on the order paper. On motion ,the House recessed for ten minutes afte1· which Mr. Depu-ty­ Speaker resumed the Chair. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, I move that the House do not adjourn at 6:00 o'clock this evening. Motion, that the House do not ad­ journ at 6:00 of the clock this evening carried. Comm it tee of th e ,vhole on va1·ious Bills. On motion Mr. Deputy-Speaker left the Chair. Mr. Courage, Chairman of the Com­ mittee of the Whole. A Bill, "An Act Respecting the Fil­ ing, P'ublication and Consolidation of Regulations." MR. CURTIS: Mr. Chairman, Clause 3, 4 and 6 were allowed to stand.

In Sub-section 6 of Seotion 3 the new sub -section will now read: "Subject to this Act, a regulation will come into force and have effect from the date on which it is published, or subject to the Act under which it is made, from such earlier or later date as may be prescribed in the regu­ lations.'' That just means, Mr. Chairman, if the Act allows it to be made effective earlier or later, then that right is car­ ried forw ard into this Act. I think that it is clear as it is now. MR. BROWNE: Clear yes. But is it good law , do you think? Mr. CURTIS: It has been the practice, Mr. Chairman, for a great many years.

Perhaps you will have noticed we came across similar regula­ tions yesterday. I would not agree to having a penalty clause made retroac­ tive but a clause just affecting the op­ erations. Sometimes it is necessary to authorize something to be done that has been done-That is the reason for this

section . I don't think i-t does any harm. ·I can assure the Honourable members that while I am where I am there will be no advantage taken of that. That is an amendment to sub-section 6 of

section 3. Four is sticken out, five and six are renumbered, and this is a new section. MR. HOLLETT: How far back can a regulation come into effect? MR. CURTIS: We have passe<l amendments here that we have brought right baok to the pas sing of the Act. ,ve have done it this session. We have made it retroactive. But i-t is only a regulation. MR. BROWNE: An amendment can be just as effective as a clause in a bill. Does the Honourable the Attorney General think of anyone now that would give us an illustration of provisions in regulations which are necessary to be word ed in -that way, to be retroactive?

There is, I think, something undesirable about making laws retroactive. A law should be such that people could have knowledge of it before they could be said to have

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 877 broken it. Everybody is presumed to know the law, but nobody can know the law before it is made. MR. CURTIS: I don't care. Take out the word "earlier." On motion clause as amended car· ried. DR. CURTIS: In sub-section (4), Mr. Chairman, the amendment is to strike out the words "sub-section (3) in the first line." On motion clause as amended car­ ried. MR. CURTIS: The nex-t one is Sub­

section 7, Mr. Chairman. The amend­ ment is, •to delete sub-section (

a) of sub-section (4) and substitute there• for-As published in accordance with this Act in the "Newfoundland Gaz­ ette" or in the Consolidated Regula­ tions or supplement thereto. In Sub­ section (4) cross out "3" and make it "2." Clause as amended, on motion car­ ried. Motion that the committee report having passed the bill with some amendment, carried. A Bill, "An Act to Amend and Con­ solidate the Law Relating to the Es­ tablishment and Administration of Local Government." MR. CHAIRMAN: This Bill was passed with the exception of clauses 56, 57 and ll0. MR. CUR TIS: Mr.

Chairman, I have looked into the point raised by my honourable and learned friend, and I think he did draw at,tention to something which might well be amend­ ed. There are two sections -to be ·re­ viewed-56 and 57. I would suggest, wi'lh the consent of my honourable friend, that we add a new sub-section. Sub-section 2, line 7, page 30, insert there a fnll stop after the word "pur­ pose" and put in a brand new sub­ section. The sub-section will read "

(3) The Council shall compensate any person injuriously affected by anything done under this section, in such sums as may be agreed, and if no agreement can be made ·the compensa·tion shall be determined and paid in accordance with

part 7, and for those purposes the provisions of ·that part apply. I think tha•t amendment will suit the purpose. The other clause is lI0. I think the amendment we recommend should be •to Clause l09. My honour­ able friend raised -the question as to whether or not arbitrators and assess­ ors should be sworn. J suggest an amendment to Clause l09, a new sub'.

section 4: "Each memher of the Board of Assessors shall hefore entering upon the duties of his office take and sub­ scribe the following oath of office be­ fore anv person authorized -to admin­ ister oaths: "I, A. B., make oath and say that I will to the best