Manitoba Hansard — 28 April 1999 (Sitting 16, 36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-16

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 16- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, April 28 1999 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY - Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GJLLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. BEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. - LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LA THLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY,Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C.

McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel l>.c. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Bon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescent wood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTIIERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P.

SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCIIUK, Rosano Swan River N.D.P. - Vacant St. Boniface

693 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, April 28, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Introduc tion of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon fifteen Grade 5 to 12 students from Parkview School under the direction of Mr. Harvey Walker, Mr. Alford Wollman and Mr. Kenny Wollman. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister ofNatural Resources (Mr. Cummings).

We also have seventeen Grades 9 to 12 students from Windy Bay School under the direction of Mr. Greg Lee. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Tweed). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Sexual Offenders Plea Bargaining Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice.

Beginning at age 12, Eva Rutherford [phonetic] was molested, raped, exploited by Harold Welsh, who was in his late 30s at the time, and when she eventually discloses this to the ju stice system, the minister's department plea bargained a deal allowing Welsh to go about his job for almost a year and a half before facing justice, without so much as checking this sex offender's contention that he was essential to a research project and that he would be in a prison-like environment. He was not essential; he wined and dined and gained prestige.

My question to the minister: is this negligent, casual treatment of such a traumatic, sinister crime the minister's standard for prosecuting child abuse cases? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I have been apprised of the facts surrounding that particular situation, and of course it was a difficult situation. I do not want to get into any particular names in case there are any ongoing proceedings or, in fact, if there was an order of prohibition in respect of mentioning any names, but I do want to point out that that was a particularly difficult case in many respects.

As I understand it, it involved a crime that had been committed many, many years ago, and I can appreciate the point of view of the prosecutors in these cases in their efforts to obtain a conviction so that the public is in fact protected. I under stand that the prosecutors did in fact their very best in this particular case to ensure that the public interest in terms of public safety was met. If the member has any specific issues with respect to how that decision was taken, I am certain that the members of my department who made the decision would be prepared to sit down and discuss that with him. * (133 5) Mr.

Mackintosh: A simple question to the minister: why is the minister, in this Legislature today, defending this plea bargain, this arrange ment entered into with this sex offender? Why? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, my job as the Attorney General and the Minister of Justice is to ensure that ju stice is in fact done within the laws that we have that guide the conduct of the prosecutor.

If this member is suggesting that our prosecutors somehow broke the law or broke some kind of a standard that is not acceptable, why does he not say it directly instead of again making these kinds of broad allegations against hard-working members of my department who only have the best interests of the people of Manitoba at heart?

694 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 Mr. Mackintosh: Would this minister please try to understand the torment caused to this victim, understand the wrong message given by this bargain based on untested, unconfirmed information given by a sex offender? Would he not admit that this is not some isolated incident but like cases like the Bauder babysitter case, a plea bargain that the minister again defended, like cases I brought in here on Monday? There is a pattern of child sexual abuse cases that are not being vigorously prosecuted? Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, my prosecutors prosecute thousands of cases, and I know how difficult these types of cases are, especially cases that involve children who have been sexually abused many, many years ago. If this member, for one moment, thinks that it is easy for the police or if he thinks that it is easy for the prosecutors to make the tough decisions that they have to do, why does he not go back to law school? Why does he not go see what it takes to prosecute a case? I can tell you, Madam Speaker, that our police forces and our- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr.

Dave Chomiak (K.ildonan): Madam Speaker, I would like to on a point of order cite Beauchesne's 417 : the answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. I listened to all three questions very carefully by the member for St. Johns in which he asked the minister specific questions relating to a prosecution and/or a botched prosecution with respect to the Department of Justice, and on all three occasions the minister has insulted the member, the minister has chosen to not answer the question.

I ask you to call the minister to order as you called the member to order when he posed the question. Ask him to either answer the question as posed and not provoke debate; Madam Speaker, or sit down. Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice, on the same point of order. Mr Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, there was a question that was put to me in respect of policy. I answered the issue in respect of policy.

In respect of the specific case, I said, rather than make general, vague accusations about the conduct of the case-and notice he does not bring any details of the types of decisions that had to be made along the way. Then I invited the member to sit down with members of my department as to why they made the decisions they did. I support that kind of interaction between the member and members of my department who are responsible for the prosecution. So I will facilitate that kind of meeting, and I made that very clear in answer to his question. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

On the point of order, I would agree with the honourable member for Kildonan. I would remind the honourable Minister of Justice to not provoke debate when responding to a question. Workers Compensation Survivor Pensions Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, today is the internationally recognized day of mourning for those workers who have been inju red or killed on the job. We not only mourn for the workers killed, but we fight for the living, including survivors of workers who were killed on the job.

Today we are jo ined by some 20 members of the WCB Widows Action Group who have joined us and are sitting here in the gallery today. These widows and many others have had their survivor pensions terminated by the Workers Compensation Board due to remarriage, which is contrary to the Manitoba Human Rights Code and is contrary to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I want to ask- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member for Transcona please pose his question now? Mr. Reid: Thank you, Madam Speaker. For all those acting premiers over there, I will pose the question to them. - -

April 28, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 695 Madam Speaker: Order, please. The member was asked to pose his question now, not debate with the members opposite. * (1 340) Mr. Reid: I want to ask the Acting Premier whoever that person is today-to please explain to the widows why for 11 years this government and the Workers Compensation Board have treated widows as ping-pong balls, bounce back and forth, refusing to deal with the restoration of widows' pensions, as was recommended by the King· commission report in May of 19 87.

I will table a copy of that recommendation that this government did not act on when they amended the act in 19 92. Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I thank the honourable member for Transcona for this opportunity to answer that question and to speak through this Chamber to the individuals in question. I do not want to cast any aspersions upon any government, whether it was the honourable member's party that was in power in 19 85 or anybody else who was in power in 19 85, as to why this issue was or was not appropriately addressed in 1985.

The law up till 19 85 was very clear, and in the values and times of the pre-19 85 pre-Charter issue, if anybody remarried as a widow after having lost a partner or widower having lost a partner, then they automatically lost their compensation rights. Post-19 85, there was basically a means test instituted, and in 19 92 the regime was changed again to issue compensation over a term of years. I can tell this Chamber that I have met with the widows. I have taken legal counsel on this issue, and we are at the present time reconsidering the entire issue.

I, in fact, had an opportunity to speak to these individuals today at the Union Centre to share this information with them. Mr. Reid: I want to ask the Acting Premier or the Minister of Labour to explain why, in 11 years, his government has not brought forward legislation to restore these widows' pensions, since the WCB states that the restoration of these pensions for some of the widows will require a further amendment of The Workers Compensation Act to restore those pensions. Why in 11 years has your government not acted on that information? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr.

Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, I think it is futile and perhaps even feckless to go back and try to effect revisionist thinking on the issue. I think that we are looking at a problem today, and we have an issue that has been brought to my office today. I am prepared to tell this Chamber, my colleagues in this Chamber and the individuals in question that I am prepared to look at this matter today and come up with a solution today. To go back and be recriminatory, I think solves no positive issue. Mr.

Reid: I want to ask the same minister, Madam Speaker, since he refused to give this commitment to the widows when he met with them earlier- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Transcona, there is no-[interjection] Would the honourable member please pose his question now? Mr.

Reid: Will the Minister of Labour, who refused to act on the request of the widows some years ago when they made this request and as recently as this year, Madam Speaker, indicate if all of the widows whose pensions were terminated will be reinstated back to the date of marriage or to the date of Charter compliance, and is he prepared to bring forward legislation in this sitting of the Legislature before the coming provincial general election to restore those widows' pension benefits? Mr.

Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, I take great pleasure in advising the member for Transcona that at the present time the Workers Compensation Board have made a reserve of a significant amount of money in order to address some of the deficiencies of the program that was instituted under a previous administration, and the Workers Compensation Board adjudi cators

696 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 will be working through the group of individuals in question. As to my honourable colleague's second part to his question, at this point in time I can tell honourable colleagues that what was initially posed to me within the last month was, in fact, not a matter of compassion, not a matter of need-and that is a direct quote from the interview that I had with the individuals in question-they posed a Charter argument.

I have satisfied myself that, in fact, there is no merit to the Charter argument that is posed; however, I think that there is a human issue which supervenes the allegations that were made or the request that was made, and it is to that human issue and the human need that we are rising to meet. * (13 45) Government Advertising Guidelines Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I would like to table a copy of a Freedom of Information request that we received that details the close to $500,000 worth of advertising put in place by this government in a desperate attempt to prop up its political fortunes.

I would like to ask the Acting Premier if they can explain to Manitobans why they saw fit to spend this close to $500,000 instead of putting it where it is needed, fixing our health care system, not trying to prop up this failing government. Hon. Glen Cummings (Acting Premier): Madam Speaker, it has to be with his tongue firmly clenched in his cheek that the member opposite asks that question, considering the record of his government and the public dollars that were spent in promotions during the sad time that they were in government.

The people of Manitoba have a right to know the correct information and the progress that is being made in health care in this problem and that we are dealing with actively. I suggest that he should not hurt himself by biting on his tongue when he asks a question like that. Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, the only people hurting are the people of Manitoba who want money spent on health care, not on politically motivated ads.

My supplementary, Madam Speaker, is: I wonder if the Acting Premier can explain how the Winnipeg Health Authority ends up being part of this advertising campaign, but when it is convenient for them they say it is arm's length. What is it? Are they arm's length, or when it came to this, are they a direct part of this propaganda campaign by the Conservative government? Mr. Cummings: Obviously, they believe that the people of this province deserve the facts, and they have undertaken to make sure that they are provided with that. Mr.

Ashton: My final question is in regard to whether there is any policy-and I want to ask the Acting Premier if when the then Minister of Finance, now Minister of Health (Mr. Stefanson), said that he had staff working on this issue, we are undertaking it, we take it very seriously-that was in 19 94-I am just wondering when we are ever going to get a policy on advertising from this government, or is it going to be conveniently after the next election when once again we have seen them spending $500,000 of the people's money for what should have been paid for by the Conservative Party? Mr.

Cummings: Madam Speaker, obviously the member for Thompson takes some umbrage when he realizes that the people of Manitoba, when they are apprised of the full facts, understand the changes that are underway in health care and understand the requirements of any responsible government to deal with that and to keep them informed. Organized Crime Joint Forces Intelligence Unit Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, a question to the Minister of Justice. Yesterday the minister held a press conference about a joint police force's intelligent unit on gangs.

It is regrettable that the province known as the gang capital of Canada is one of the last to get a joint forces unit, and even now it is still talk. My question to the minister is: would he admit that there is no agreement with any municipal police forces, with any First Nations - -

April 28, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 697 police forces, with any Canada Customs, with the city of Winnipeg police? What kind of a joint operation is one police force? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I wanted to avoid the mistakes that his counterparts the NDP government in B.C. made when their joint forces task force fell apart.

What we want to do in this particular case is to work with the RCMP, which is our provincial police force, and give them the assurance that we are committed to an ongoing joint forces intelligence unit, not simply on an operational basis but an ongoing basis. The agreement between the RCMP, as our provincial police force indicates, is that they now continue to work with the other municipal police forces who in fact have drafted a plan for the consideration of the department and for further discussion between police forces, and very importantly the city councils that fund the municipal police forces. Mr.

Mackintosh: Would the minister, who also knows there is no funding arrangement or commitment, there is no agreement on a time limit, there is no technology deal, there is no guarantee of anything, explain to Manitobans why the chiefs of police of the Winnipeg Police Service and Brandon police, who comprise the executive of the Criminal Intelligence Service of Manitoba, who put forward this proposal, were neither invited nor, more importantly, were not signatories to this agreement, especially when Winnipeg- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, again the member seems to misunderstand the role of the RCMP vis-a-vis the provincial government in this province. The RCMP is our provincial police force. The province does not run municipal police forces, and that is a very clear understanding that I have with the mayors of the communities and indeed the mayor of Winnipeg and the specific councillor who is responsible directly for the police.

So my role as Minister of Justice is to ensure that the police force that we fund, the RCMP, $53 million a year, fulfills the mandate of public safety and works in the best interests of all Manitobans. Some of that then ensures that working together with the municipal police forces in implementing this plan on an ongoing basis is taken care of. I know that both the assistant commissioner and the chief of Winnipeg and other chiefs will work together on the implementation of a plan. * (1 350 ) Mr.

Mackintosh: Would the minister admit that this answer and his announcement could in fact harm a co-operative effort on gangs, that yesterday's announcement was a photo op for the purposes of an election to make it look like the government was concerned about a problem it helped create? Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, it was interesting that it was the RCMP that proposed the establishment of this ongoing unit and that we had discussions on that. I said to the RCMP, bring forward a plan. The RCMP consulted with other municipal police forces.

They brought forward a plan and as the Justice minister of the province of Manitoba, on behalf of the govern ment of Manitoba and the people of Manitoba, said to the RCMP, this is a good direction to be going in. We want this kind of a unit in Manitoba. Please work together with all of the heads of CISM, the Criminal Intelligence Service of Manitoba, and the municipal police forces to see that this becomes a reality. Gaming Control Commission Independence Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister responsible for Manitoba Lotteries.

Recently, Madam Speaker, it was brought to my attention by a constituent that the Manitoba Gaming Control Commission released the '97-98 annual report. As all members of this Chamber know, this particular commission is supposed to be independent, in particular independent of Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. Yet, if you read the annual report, you will find that the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation has indeed given a $240,000 grant to the commission. My question to the minister is: what does that grant do to the so-called independence of the Gaming Commission?

698 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, as a new minister coming into this portfolio, it would be my understanding that that is the means by which the Gaming Commission is funded in its operation. It is not, I believe, a conditional grant made in which the Lotteries Commission would have discretion, but rather it is a means of ensuring that the Gaming Control-at least that is my understanding. I will endeavour to confirm that with my staff and report back to the member. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the question to the minister responsible is for him to recognize that there is a budget of $1. 5 million, of which they got a $240,000 donation. Madam Speaker: Question. Mr. Lamoureux: My question to the minister is: was it not the government's policy that the Gaming Commission be independent of Manitoba Lotteries, and if in fact that is the case, then why are they receiving money from the Manitoba Lotteries? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the member is correct in his observation that the purpose of the Gaming Control Commission is to be independent, is not part of the Lotteries Commission.

In fact, it answers to this Assembly via a different minister, that being the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Render). There is quite likely a very logical reason for that. It could be the pension benefits, one of my colleagues outlines. It could be part of that establishment of their funding or operation. I will endeavour to get an answer for the member as to the specifics of that matter, but I can assure him it is not meant in any way by the Lotteries Commission to be some sort of an inducement to produce decisions that the Lotteries Corporation would desire.

Gaming Policy Impact on Charitable Organizations Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, a final supplementary. In the annual report, it indicates very clearly that the number of charitable licensed events has gone down considerably year over year. Is the minister aware of the gaming policy that this government has brought in and the impact it has had on charitable organizations' abilities to be able to generate funds? * (1 355) Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, having in one way or another, as an MLA, over a decade, been involved with the lottery issues, I can remember, when I first stood for public office, one of the issues had been actually the government getting involved-and it had been a previous administration-in gaming and lotteries and taking over the role of an organization that used to be called, I think, Total Community Involvement that had initially the responsibility for dealing with all of these ticket sales and things for community organizations.

Govern ment has taken over because the interest in the public in other various forms of gaming and lottery tickets and like consumers looking for new products has certainly grown. I think in all jurisdictions we have seen an increasing role. In terms of supporting community organizations, a fairly sizeable portion of dollars or revenues from the Lotteries Corporation does go back into the communities through things like the Community Places Program, through a variety of grants to communities that are made out of that fund. So there is a return to communities.

Office of the Fire Commissioner Fire Code Inspections-Schools Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I would like to rise at this point and respond to a question that was put to the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon) yesterday which he took as notice and directed the Minister of Labour to return. It was a question levelled from the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), where I quote from the record: "Will the Premier explain why the Fire Commissioner's office can provide services to Libya, to Cuba, to Chile, to Brazil, to Argentina, but they cannot ensure that the inspections of our - -

April 28, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 699 very schools to which our children go every single day are inspected by the Fire Commissioner's office? Is this the way you operate your government?" That was the question. Madam Speaker, I can assure the member opposite that there has been no relationship with Libya and our Fire Commissioner's office. There has been no relationship with Argentina and our Fire Commissioner's office. In fact, what the Fire Commissioner's office did was gather together some excess fire equipment and send.it off to South America as charity.

Further, I mentioned yesterday that the Fire Commissioner's office is an education resource, and there were some members who came from Cuba, paid for by the Cuban government, to our Fire Commissioner's office for instruction, for knowledge, for improvement so that they could take our knowledge from Manitoba back and help their people in the Caribbean. Madam Speaker, in addition, the Fire Commissioner's office will, on request from any municipality or any facility, do an inspection. If there is a request by the facility, there will be a charge. Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona) : Madam Speaker, the member ju st indicated and confirmed what we had said yesterday, that, in fact, the Fire Commissioner's office is inspecting the schools, the daycares, the personal care homes and other facilities involving the public on a fee-for service or a profit basis. He just confirmed our comments of yesterday. I want to ask this minister then: who is telling the truth? The previous Minister of Labour, now Minister of Finance (Mr.

Gilleshammer), when he said in Estimates last year-and I will quote the date, Thursday, April 16 , 19 98, when the minister said that there are efforts on behalf of the Fire Commissioner's office to contract to the services that I mentioned yesterday, including the very countries that the minister ju st referenced: Brazil, Chile, Argen tina, Cuba and others. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Prior to recognizing the honourable Minister of Labour, I would like to remind all honourable members that when one is either posing a question or responding to a question, the words "to tell the truth" have been ruled unparliamentary on numerous, numerous occasions. So I would suggest the honourable member pick and choose his words very carefully. Mr. Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, I wanted to continue to advise my honourable colleague that if there is a request from a local fire department to the Fire Commissioner's office for any sort of support, this support is furnished free of charge.

There is no charge for a fire inspection, for a building inspection, on account of fire if it comes from a local fire department or from a municipality. So I am sure that my honourable colleague will be enlightened with the truth of this matter, and I would ask him to take this to heart. Madam Speaker, The Fire Prevention Act has never mandated that the Fire Commissioner's office do these sorts of fire inspections. They do it as a matter of courtesy. They do it because they are a centre for knowledge.

They are a resource in our province, and they should be congratulated and lauded rather than criticized by members opposite. I take umbrage at the aspersions levelled by the member opposite to the Fire Commissioner's office on this issue. * (1 400) Mr. Reid: Then, Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister because yesterday the concern was for the safety of the staff and the schoolchildren that attend our schools in every part of this province- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Reid: I want to ask the minister to confirm- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his question. Mr.

Reid: I want to ask the minister then: which one is being straight up with Manitobans the minister who says that he will provide these services for free, or the former Minister of Labour, now Minister of Finance, who said on

700 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 Wednesday, May 21, '97, "The objective, of course, is to balance the budget and even turn a profit ifwe can."? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I think that certainly there are aspects of the honourable member's question that should be viewed by all of us in a very serious way. All public schools are constructed or renovated according to applicable standards and codes of the province or local government authority.

After that, the ongoing safety and maintenance considerations accruing to schools, including fire inspections, become the responsibility of the owners of the buildings, that being the school divisions or districts, and their administrative offices. School divisions and districts, as owners of permanent school buildings and some portable structures, are also the insured parties with respect to fire insurance and other related policies.

Consequently, it will be up to the school boards, doubtless in consultation with the MAST, Manitoba Association of School Trustees, to establish-[interjection] Well, Madam Speaker, I thought the honourable member for Transcona was serious about the safety of our children when he asked the question. I am serious about the safety of our children. I am trying to share some information with my colleagues in this House. There should, of course, be established a mechanism and a

schedule for inspections of schools and for fire safety planning generally. MAST currently recommends that all public schools be inspected annually by a competent qualified fire inspector, and there is some discussion about raising the standards to two inspections per year. My department, in response-and I thank the honourable member for Transcona for this-to this issue is following this up with the MAST to find out the present status of their recommendation. Pine Falls Paper Company Development-Impact on First Nations Mr.

Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resource s. At least nine First Nations have a direct interest and need for economic development on the east side of Lake Winnipeg. A draft agree ment with Pine Falls Paper Company would increase cutting rates by 700,000 cubic metres extending north of Berens River and could have long-term economic implications for these bands; yet they have been told the agreement is to be signed with or without their input.

I would like to table a copy of the memorandum of understanding, unsigned memorandum, and also a letter from Chief Louis Young of the Bloodvein First Nation. In Chief Young's letter he indicates that the signing of the memorandum of understanding without our direct participation would be a breach of our constitutional rights. Can the minister indicate what the legal implications for the project are if First Nations are not brought to the table? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the member brings forward an issue that is quite troublesome and one which perhaps he has been a little bit ill informed on because, in the most recent meeting that occurred, the company that now owns Pine Falls Paper was interested in having signatories which would include equity investors which would include the First Nations communities who were prepared to become involved in the future operations on the east side of the lake. The meeting did not reach a conclusion, and there was no meeting of the minds on where they wanted to go with this.

I hope the member would be broad-minded enough to appreciate the fact that Pine Falls, as they were traditionally known, is making a sincere and ongoing effort to co-operate and to involve the First Nations and the northern communities on that side of the lake because undoubtedly this is very important for their future and the development of that opportunity they need to be part of. Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, this government's track record of including First Nations is not a good one.

April 28, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 70 1 Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member was recognized for a supplementary question to which there should be no

preamble. Mr. Struthers: Will the minister indicate what the timelines are for the signing of this memorandum and whether the signing will be conditional on First Nations participation in the memorandum? Mr.

Cummings: Madam Speaker, I think the member for Dauphin-and I would hope everyone else who is concerned about this would appreciate that there are no deadlines, that this is a development opportunity that the people on the east side of the lake in conjunction with this major pulp and paper company, along with a possibility for sawmill operations, can change and move forward in the future opportunities within that area. We have set no deadlines. We are not dictating the conditions of an agreement.

We are saying, even in the development of the road on that side, which is very much tied to the opportunity for harvesting of forest for either lumber or pulp or a combination of the two, that we intend to seek and receive co-operation and sign-off in those areas so that we are not seen to be treading in areas where we would be unwelcome or where the opportunity is not wanted. It is intended to be a process that would be very inclusive. Mr.

Struthers: Does the minister not understand, given recent court decisions like Delgamuukw on the west coast and others, that he puts at risk the opportunities and the jobs that he talks about if he continues to leave out First Nations and ignore their constitutional concerns? Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, I am disappointed and frankly hurt that the member would indicate that he believes we would proceed to put deadlines and force development in this area without significant input and without opportunity for the communities.

That is one of the basic tenets of a potential agreement: the communities are part of it, do have an opportunity for a buy-in.

In fact, the problem is, as the member knows full well, and I believe he is trying to exploit the differences between the communities themselves on what they see for their future opportunity, because there are some of these communities prepared to be co investors; they want to be equity holders, they want to parti cipate, but there are other communities that have not yet reached that agreement, and we are going to have to work with them. * (1410 ) Education System Physical Education Curriculum Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I want to raise again with the government its contribution to the growing problem of inactive and unfit young people in our province. The Minister of Education may know that his home school division in Brandon has approved a reduction of physical education and health teaching time that is far below the curriculum recommendation guideline of 18 0 minutes per six-day cycle. Grades 1 to 6 will only receive 90 minutes or half the recommended amounts in the curriculum.

Given that we have been waiting three years for a new curriculum which would help reverse this trend and clarify what is expected in Manitoba in physical education and health education, I want to ask the minister why his department is planning to release the long-awaited new curriculum next October rather than prior to the beginning of the school year in September so we do not go another year in Manitoba in this vacuum of no curriculum in health and physical education? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, it is interesting the honourable member should raise that.

I was ju st in the grocery store last weekend getting some groceries and happened to discuss this very matter with one of our teachers in the Brandon School Division. I listened to what this teacher had to say and suggested that is a good topic for discussion at the local level. My concern is also in response to the honourable member's question that whatever it is that is mandated by the provincial authority, it is something that needs to be carried out, and I think what I am hearing in the honourable member's question is that maybe that is not happening. I do need to address that if that is the allegation.

I would certainly want to take that up with the school division.

702 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 With respect to the second part of the honourable member's question, I need to get some sense from her, I suppose, where it is the opposition wants us to go. I am not always sure I want to go where they want me to go, I am pretty certain I do not want to go where they want to take me, but I would at least like to understand where it is they want me to go, and that is something that is very unclear from honourable members opposite. Ms.

Cerilli: Madam Speaker, I am going to table a study from the University of Winnipeg for the minister that shows that over 50 percent of the grades in Manitoba are below the 18 0 minutes for phys ed and health education that is required. I want to ask the minister: is he aware of this, and how will he ensure that the new curriculum, which is going to recommend 18 0 minutes of phys ed and has a number of outcomes requiring 18 0 minutes of instruction, how is that curriculum going to be met when some schools are only teaching for 60 minutes? Mr.

McCrae: I am sure, in due course when this curriculum does come forward, that the issues raised in the honourable member's question will no doubt be addressed. The reason I say that is the curriculum that we have been developing in this province has been the result of an extremely inclusive process. I hear honourable members, for example, complaining about various aspects of curriculum, and I have to remind them that it is Manitoba teachers building Manitoba curriculum in Manitoba for Manitoba students, and we will be guided by that input. We will be assisted greatly by that input.

But I do believe that if there are any shortcomings in the present situation, and I am not saying there are or are not because so often we are led to believe certain things in this place that do not really turn out to be that way. I simply say that, as we implement the curriculum, I am sure some of the concerns the honourable member has will be addressed. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Day of Mourning-Workplace Accidents Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, at noon today I was pleased to join with many others in our annual walk along Broadway.

I joined with the Winnipeg Labour Council and the Winnipeg Boys and Girls Club in talking to many Winnipeggers about the importance of the Day of Mourning. During our walk we handed out Day of Mourning lapel stickers and spoke to members of the public about the significance of the day. Of course, as many members know, the symbol displayed on the sticker is the internationally recognized canary in a cage, which represents the emergency warning system used by 19 th Century miners.

This day, April 28, was set aside to recognize the sacrifices that Canadians have made to earn a living for themselves and their families. Eighty-five years ago, in 19 14 , the first comprehensive Workers Compensation Act in Canada received third reading in the Ontario Legislature. Rod Murphy, the former M.P. for Churchill, was instrumental in having the Parliament of Canada recognize this day as the Day of Mourning, and we appreciate Mr. Murphy's efforts. Each and every year of the past 10 years, over one million Canadians suffered workplace injuries. Every year 1 ,000 Canadians die from occupational diseases.

One worker in 15 is injured on the job each year. On average, three Canadian workers are killed every single working day. Manitoba working people are a part of this statistical information. Last year 45,999 Manitobans sustained workplace injuries and filed claims with the Compensation Board, an increase of 5 percent over the previous year. Last year, 22 Manitobans unfortunately lost their lives in workplace accidents or through occupationally caused diseases. In the last 10 years, Madam Speaker, 21 1 Manitobans have died in workplace accidents, and their survivors had filed claims with the Compensation Board.

Many more claims were rejec ted by the Compensation Board over the same period. Widows of survivors continue to have their pensions terminated by this - -- -

April 28, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 703 government contrary to, we believe, the Manitoba Human Rights Code and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If as many police officers had died in the line of duty, Madam Speaker, in their daily work, there would have been a moral outrage, but when a single worker dies it gathers little more than a small column in the daily newspaper. Madam Speaker, we mourn for the dead; we fight for the living. Mr.

Denis Rocan (Gladstone): April 28 is designated as a national Day of Mourning for those who have been inju red or who have died as a result of workplace accidents in Canada. We all agree that even one injury or fatality in the workplace is too many, and we must work to prevent these tragedies from happening in the future. Every life is precious and all inju ries are preventable. Any workplace injury or fatality is a serious matter and of great concern.

We have all been touched by a workplace incident, whether the person injured is old or young, male or female, worked as a farmer, a logger, a miner, on construction, on the assembly line or in some other line of work. From each incident that occurs, whether it results in serious inju ry or not, we must learn the cause so that we can prevent similar accidents from taking place. In the last decade there have been significant reductions in accident rates and traumatic fatality rates in Manitoba. Employers and workers have been working in partnership to ensure that workplaces become safer.

This partnership must continue. As long as any worker is injured or killed in a workplace accident, there is room for improvement. We must remain diligent in continuing to make Manitoba's workplaces even safer and healthier. Inju ry and death in the workplace bring pain and suffering to co workers, families and friends. This Day of Mourning gives all of us a chance to consider the serious nature of work and to consider how we can all work towards the goal of eliminating all workplace accidents. Thank you. * (1 420) Cathy Keenan Mr.

Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, I rise to pay tribute to Cathy Keenan, 19 99 recipient of the Exceptional Early Childhood Award given by the Manitoba Child Care Association conference last April 24 at the Ramada Marlborough Inn here in Winnipeg. The conference was also addressed by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), who graciously acknowledged my presence there- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Crescentwood, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I cannot hear what the member is saying on a very important statement honouring someone. I wonder if you could call the members to order. Madam Speaker: I agree that the honourable member for Crescentwood indeed does have a point of order. I also was experiencing difficulty hearing the honourable member for Broadway. I would ask that all those having private meetings do so in the loge or outside the Chamber. * * * Mr. Santos: It is written: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come unto me; for such is the kingdom of Heaven.

Quality health care is an investment in our common future. Manitoba used to be a leader in child care support in the 198 0s. Regrettably, this has not kept pace during the past decade under the current government. In 19 89, Manitoba child care fees were, on average, the lowest in the entire country. Child care fees now have nearly doubled since then. Today, many daycare centres are facing serious challenges. Low wages, lack of funding make it difficult to keep and find qualified daycare workers. Operating grants do not always reflect the actual cost of operations. Affordability, accessibility, quality care should

704 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 be the chief aim of a good provincial govern ment. Paying lip service to child care is not the same thing as actively supporting child care in this province. The New Democratic Party has a much better vision for children and parents. We listen to parents; we listen to child care workers. Our task force on child care travelled across the province to see first-hand what needs to be done. We understand the importance of quality child care. We are committed to acting on this issue. Palliative Care Expansion Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Madam Speaker, I am proud to stand in this House today and talk about a recent initiative of this government. Our government has announced $3 million in funding for the expansion of palliative care services over a two year period. This will help the terminally ill, whether in hospital or home settings, to be eased into the final stages of life with respect and dignity. Funds will be divided between the regional health authorities and the Winnipeg Health Authority. Here in Winnipeg, the WHA will use their funds to redevelop a 15-bed palliative care unit at St.

Boniface General Hospital. The first year of the program will see Brandon, northern and rural RHAs hire a palliative care resource person who will co-ordinate the regional palliative care program. They will educate people who work with the terminally ill and provide support to palliative care workers. In the second year of the program, a 24-hour response team will be ushered in as well as expanded home care services. This will allow patients to receive more services in their home. As a former nurse, I recognize the significance of this initiative.

This announcement illustrates this government's commitment to provide appropriate health care services for all segments of this province's population. We care about the needs of Manitobans and will work hard to ensure that these needs are met. Vaclav Havel Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Vaclav Havel, the Czech philosopher, poet and statesman and current president of the Czech Repub lic, is in our city today. Mr. Havel is one of the great figures of our time, and it is indeed an honour for Manitobans that he has come to our province in order to receive an honorary degree.

For his literary endeavours and for his political ideals and morality, Havel is inter nationally admired. His opposition to political totalitarianism is well known as is his willing ness to be imprisoned for the causes of freedom, ju stice and morality. From his activities during the Prague spring in 19 68 to his leadership during the Velvet Revolution of 19 89 and to his election as president of Czechoslovakia and later the Czech Republic, Havel has demonstrated the behaviour and high moral standards politicians should strive to achieve.

Events of recent months in Manitoba have altered the perception that many of our citizens have of politicians. We as politicians and as citizens would do well to hear the words that Havel wrote in 19 91: "Despite the political distress that I face every day, I am still deeply convinced that politics is not essentially a disreputable business, and to the extent that it is, it is only disreputable people who make it so.

I would concede that it can, more than any other sphere of human activity, tempt one to disreputable practices, and it therefore places higher demands on people, but it is simply not true that a politician must lie or intrigue. It is utter nonsense spread about by people who, for whatever reason, wish to discourage others from taking an interest in public life." The work and life of Vaclav Havel are reminders to us all of the higher calling of politics and of how fortunate we are to have people like Vaclav Havel exist today to encourage us in our dark days. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon.

Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): I would ask if you would call first of all the motion with respect to the report of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections respecting judicial compensation which was - -

April 28, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 705 received this April 7, 19 99. That would be followed by continuation of debate on third reading ofBill 17 . I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer), that, in accordance with subsections 11 .1( 5) and 11 .1( 6) of The Provincial Court Act, the report of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections respecting ju dicial compensation received on April 7, 19 99, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, as I have requested, if you could call Bill 17 for continuation of third reading.

Should the House give that third reading this afternoon, I think you would find agreement then to proceed to private members' hour, to call it five o'clock. I think there would be agreement of the House to do that. I would also advise the House that should that bill receive third reading in this Chamber this afternoon, His Honour the Lieutenant Governor will be available to give it Royal Assent at a quarter to five. So I imagine the House would be prepared to interrupt whatever proceedings are taking place at that time to allow His Honour to attend at the Chamber for that purpose.

THIRD READINGS Bill 17- The Elections Amendment and Elections Finances Amendment Act Madam Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable First Minister, Bill 17 , The Elections Amendment and Elections Finances Amendment Act; Loi Modifiant Ia Loi electorale et Ia

Loi sur le financement des campagnes electorales, standing in the name of the honourable member for Wellington, who has nine minutes remaining. Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): I, at the close of business yesterday, was concluding my remarks on Bill 17 and talking about the various recommendations of the Monnin report that were to be found in Bill 17 . There is one other outstanding recommendation that I would like to speak to, and I think it is also, as they all are, quite important.

The Monnin report talked about the fact that it is important not only to have processes in place that give the Chief Electoral Officer and all parties to elections and political activity the tools with which to make informed decisions and good choices about whether they are going to go forward with an accusation or not of wrongdoing under the act, but also recommendations that come from the Chief Electoral Officer and Elections Manitoba as a result of elections and as a result of situations which I hope we never have again like we have been faced with today as an outcome of the Monnin report.

The recommendation states that the legislative committee that deals with The Elections Act and The Elections Finances Act must sit within 60 days of receipt of recommendations from the Chief Electoral Office whenever those recommendations come forward.

There would be no time lag allowed longer than two months, whether the House is sitting or not. * (1 430) So, Madam Speaker, the recommendation of Monnin has been accepted, and Bill 17 does provide for the timely consideration of any recommendations coming from the Chief Electoral Office, and that is within 60 days of laying the recommendation before the Legislature. So there will not be an opportunity for any government to delay consideration of recommendations that come before it from the Chief Electoral Office.

I think it is incredibly important that this part of the legislation be enacted because historically the recommen dations of the Chief Electoral Officer have been timely. They have been all designed to make the electoral process more open, more accessible, and the people who participate in the electoral process, whether they be candidates, chief financial officers, auditors or political parties, more accountable. Openness and accountability is what we should strive for as people who are involved in the political process. It is what people like Mr.

Havel, whom we are honouring today, have fought for, have gone to prison for, and many people throughout the history of this world have died for-a system of government that looks very much like ours. I think, Madam Speaker, in concluding my remarks on Bill 17 , as I started, it is very

706 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 unfortunate that we had to have a situation that ended in the Monnin report and Bill 17 . Many people have spoken on that, and I am sure the people of Manitoba, in their wisdom, will speak on that very shortly.

But the one positive thing that has come out of this whole dreadful situation is that we have in Bill 17 some exceptionally good amendments which will make our electoral process more open and accountable and will, with good will on all parts of everybody who works in the vineyards of public service, ensure that nothing, nothing like what has happened to the people of this province in the last four years as a result of this vote rigging scandal ever happens again. So we are pleased and delighted to be able to support Bill 17 , its process and its contents. Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): It is a pleasure for me to rise today and speak on Bill 17 . When it came through second reading I did talk in essence about the principles, as our rules indicate we are supposed to on the bill, and went through the different recommendations that came out of the Monnin inquiry, the party's position. The thing that I would like to again reinforce in third reading is one of the recommendations in which I think it is absolutely critical that we see action, some sort of concrete, tangible action taking place.

In part there was an, albeit short, bit of a discussion in committee in regard to the issue. I think that it is imperative that political parties have some form of code of conduct or code of behaviour or code of ethics, whatever one might want to call it. I look for not only leadership in all political parties to be able to demonstrate to that good will. We also believe that there is a need for Elections Manitoba ultimately to provide some base or some core of values that would be reflective of what expectations Manitobans would have of their political parties.

We are really talking more of the mores that Manitobans would have as a whole in regard to codes of ethics and behaviour. Having said that, Madam Speaker, the other recommendations I commented on during second reading, what I wanted to go to was the committee meeting. I have always, as in the past, felt that there is a great deal of benefit whenever you go into committee meetings, committee hearings, where you have members of the public that come forward and make presentation. There is always something that quite of:en triggers a number of ideas and thoughts.

There was one presenter that I thought was quite interesting, and both presenters expressed some valid concerns, but it was Mr. Nielson that really intrigued me in the way in which he addressed this particular bill. Madam Speaker, Mr. Nielson went on to talk about areas of concern that he and through his contacts-and I must say, they seem to be fairly excessive in terms of the Internet and so forth. He talked about ways in which we would have a better democracy. In good part, it was in reference directly to the bill. As I had pointed out in my commen ts to Mr.

Nielson, that even though in Manitoba we do have an excellent system, many, including myself, at least in part, would argue that it is second to no other in the world. Having said that, Madam Speaker, there is so much room for improvement in making our system a better, a more democratic system. There were a couple that maybe, I thought, this would be an appropriate time to talk about. That is one that has always been somewhat of a surprise, and this is more so at the local level.

I, in most part, believe that there are certain expenditures that are not taken into account in a provincial election that should be taken into account. I can only feel safe in commenting on my own area, because that is the area in which I have gone through a number of campaigns, and comment on that particular experience. You know, like all candidates that live in their ridings, they put up signs. I too had a sign,_ and my sign, I guess, was in the backyard because it faced Keewatin at the time. That is where I put my sign and so we did not have one necessarily on the front lawn.

So canvassers would come through, and it was interesting that my wife, who was at home taking care of our children, made reference twice to individuals from the NDP party who were knocking on doors. One was a union individual from B.C. Another was a union individual, I believe it was from Alberta or Saskatchewan, I am not sure. The reason why I say that is because I think that there are many -

April 28, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 707 expenditures that should be taken into consideration. I would think that this might be occurring in all political parties to some degree, but I qualified it by commenting on-1 am talking about the riding which I represent, the riding which I am most familiar with. Madam Speaker, if there are indeed paid individuals, paid lobbyists, representatives that are working at a local campaign, that is a legitimate thing for them to be doing. I do not question that, but I do question whether or not that should be reported as an election expense.

I would suggest to you that if you have organized, whether it is organized labour or other organized interest groups that are providing or making available individuals, whether it is on a part-time or a full-time basis, there has to be some mechanism that takes that into account because there is an advantage when that occurs. * (1 440) I look at individuals that put efforts in my campaign, and I can, with all honesty, indicate to this House that, you know, membership on my campaign involves a great deal of union individuals, people who are heavily involved.

My campaign manager, or former campaign manager, Jhun Martin, was one of the poster-can I call it poster boys for promotion for the CIA, the Canadian international union. An Honourable Member: Which one? Mr. Lamoureux: Jhun Martin. An Honourable Member: CIA, what union is that? Mr. Lamoureux: The union for the Transcona yards. [interje ction] Well, this individual worked out at the CN yards in Transcona. Many of my constituents actually work throughout Winnipeg, are participants in unions. My apologies if I used the wrong acronym for the union.

Madam Speaker, the point is-and I know that it is a sensitive issue, but I am appealing to Elections Manitoba. I had an individual who indicated that he was given opportunities to be trained through the union on campaigning and then asked to go into a particular campaign to work against different political parties. I would share, you know, my provincial campaigns cost me, personally, money. There is no corporation that donates thousands of dollars to me.

I believe the landlord of my campaign office has given me a larger than average donation, but you will find that all my campaign donations-and I am quite open to provide wherever possible an open accounting for where I receive my money from, but I can assure the Leader of the official opposition- An Honourable Member: Who paid for that Free Press one day there? Mr. Lamoureux: -that the advertising, or I should not say-the member is throwing me off here.

Not the advertising, the campaign, the people that volunteer in my campaign and the efforts that they put in is fairly great, fairly given. [interje ction] Madam Speaker, the leader is throwing me off. I will just pause for a quick second so I can catch the gist of his question. An Honourable Member: The Free Press ad. Mr. Lamoureux: Are you talking about the Free Press survey that was sent out to all Manitobans? That was paid by the Liberal Party, from what I understand. Well, I get the gist of what the Leader is now trying to say. Madam Speaker, to the member for Selkirk. One should never be presumptuous.

He just heckled: we will miss you, implying that the NDP will take over in the riding of Inkster. I will give a little bit of advice that I can give him, and that is never to take one's constituents for granted. I will never take my constituents for granted. I hope and trust that the member for Selkirk, by what he just said, does not take his constituents for granted.

If he wants to take his constituents for granted, I would ask him not to take the constituents that I represent for granted because not only is he doing a disservice to my constituents, he is also doing a disservice to the individual that might be an opponent for me in the next provincial election. But, Madam Speaker, as members can tell, it is a very sensitive issue, and that is the reason why I bring it up because I do believe there is a

708 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 responsibility for Manitoba Elections to continue in a very proactive way to find out how campaigns at the local level are in fact run, that there is a responsibility for Elections Manitoba to ensure that all candidates as much as possible are put on an equal playing field.

That is in fact what I am arguing for, that if in fact there are organizations that are third party that contribute indirectly, that directly assist a particular candidate, that that is something at the very least that is worthy of looking into because it does have an impact, and I have seen that first-hand. I know, going into the next provincial election, that there will be an organized attempt from a sector that does not necessarily reflect the wishes of a union membership, as an example, and it saddens me. It saddens many of my campaign workers that are very actively involved in unions.

I say it because it is there. It is very real, and I use it as an example in Inkster because that is the area which I am most familiar with. I would suggest to you that in fact the same sorts of things might be occurring in other areas. It is not to pinpoint and say it is just the union elite or select union elite that are doing it. There, quite frankly, could be the same sort of tactics that would be used in other areas through other interest groups.

I would suggest to you that what is important here is that when we go into a provincial election, we are asking individuals or Manitobans to look at the candidates that are being provided for them to address or to look up, whether it is through the web site or making the connection through the media what the political parties are saying. We are expecting, and that expectation is there because we, in part, say that we want a democratic system that is fair. We do that by what laws we currently have in place by putting in election expenses, by putting in caps.

Well, I would suggest to you that there are many loopholes that are there, and those loopholes need to be addressed whenever possible. The reason why they have to be addressed is that I really believe that it should not be up to an interest group of whatever, whether it is the Chamber of Commerce or the Manitoba Federation of Labour. It should be up to the candidates to be able to communicate their messages through their volunteers or if they have paid individuals, that those paid individuals are, in fact, registered with Elections Manitoba through the donation that you have to give.

I believe that by doing it in that sort of a fashion that we will have a better system. That is the reason why I bring it up. I do not bring it up to take cheap shots at a political party or an outside organization. I bring it up because Mr. Nielson, in reporting to the committee on these amendments, talked about a number of different things that he believes are important in order to make us have a better government, a better form of democracy. He talked about issues such as what happens inside the Chamber.

He was disappointed, for example, that so little time was given for that individual to prepare on such an important issue and make better comment on the legislation that was before us. Well, I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. Not only do we need to look at Elections Manitoba and the role that they have to play in ensuring that what change is necessary, and change is necessary, that that change be continual and continuously moving forward so we get a better democratic system, but we also need and have a responsibility to look internally. One of the examples that Mr.

Nielson made ref erence to was, of course, an orderly fashion within this Chamber. * (1 450) Well, there were a number of us who served on a committee, and it was alluded to at the committee hearing, of the provisional rules. In the provisional rules, there was a process that would have seen us sit in the falltime, sit iR the springtime. The idea was that in the springtime we would actually have legislation brought in. The summertime provided ample opportunity for individuals to digest the legislation that has been brought forward and then in the falltime have those committee meetings and third readings.

In the springtime we would have dealt with the Estimates or the budget process. Well, I bring it up because there are not as many opportunities to be able to talk on an issue that is as important as the one that we have -

April 28, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 709 today. We talk about the pillars of democracy or the foundations. In the last year I have really been somewhat disappointed. It is difficult for me to explain that disappointment, saddened by what I have seen. I really, for example, believe that we should have sat last fall, that we raise and spend billions of dollars every year. There is a responsibility on all members of this Chamber to be in here and to ensure better accountability of those expenditures, of those revenues that are being generated.

Both political parties are to blame for that not taking place. Both the official opposition and the government could be soundly criticized for that. When I look at The Elections Act, The Elections Finances Act, Madam Speaker, again I would suggest to you that not only both but all political parties have to share in the blame in how we, far too often, in my opinion, are too partisan in approaching this issue. With the issue that I raised just a few minutes ago, I have had New Democrats agree with me that that is in fact something that has to be dealt with.

When you sit down with people in a very apolitical way, Madam Speaker, you will find that the room for consensus building is over whelming. As parliamentarians, we recognize many of the deficiencies that are in fact there. That is the reason why I had suggested that, as with Mr. Nielson and others, there is a role for outside organizations and individuals also to lobby Elections Manitoba. Madam Speaker, I, as an individual, as an MLA, have attempted to express concerns that I have had with the elections. Third-party advertising is another concern. Again, we have to be very, very careful.

We have to respect the rights. When I look at, for example, the Manitoba Teachers' Society, they have a role to play in informing Manitobans in elections. There is no doubt about that. Our nurses' union has a role to play in informing Manitobans what is actually happening. But there is a role for Elections Manitoba to start, at the very least, looking at some of the issues that can have impacts on provincial elections, and if in fact there is a need for Elections Manitoba to be more involved.

Madam Speaker, I say that and I caution, and I trust that other members will not exploit those particular comments, because it is easy to say something in opposition and say that endless amounts of dollars should and could be expended. Government, it goes without saying, is going to try to limit some of those expenditures, especially on the record. I would find that equally as repulsive. I do believe the government in terms of the expenditures-and that question, I think, was either raised today or yesterday: advertising.

You know there is a huge amount of speculation that the election could be called as early as May 4, possibly May 11 , and we see a lot of advertising taking place. Well, again, that is an issue in which one has to be very diligent. You cannot use government dollars in order to prop up a government, or you should not be using government dollars in order to prop up a government leading into a provincial election. You know, this time the government, which is Conservative, is being soundly criticized for the dollars that they are spending.

Well, 11 years ago, the roles were reversed, that you had the then Conservatives criticizing the govern ment of the day, which happened to be NDP, on the advertising that they were spending using government tax dollars. What that means, I would suggest, is that we need to be more diligent and more proactive in trying to come up with guidelines that will ensure that abuse of that nature will be marginalized. I am not sure if Elections Manitoba has a role to play in that area, but it is definitely an issue that does have to be addressed because it is not fair.

It is not appropriate for governments to be using tax dollars when, in fact, they should be using party dollars. That is something which causes a great deal of concern, I believe, not only for me, Madam Speaker, but also would be a concern of my constituents. I believe when we talk about our Elections Acts, whether it is the Elections Act of Manitoba or The Elections Finances Act or the boundary redistribution, what Manitobans want first and foremost is a sense of fairness of no political interf erence in the process. That is something in which I, as much as possible, have advocated for.

I would assure this House whenever I have

710 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 had discussions to the best of my knowledge with Elections Manitoba that I do approach those discussions in a very apolitical fashion. I believe that there is a role for political parties to lobby Elections Manitoba, and to that extent Elections Manitoba does meet with party representatives to get feedback on legislative changes. I think that is a positive. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Where we really need to improve is the way in which the local campaigns are ran, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I would encourage, and I could not encourage in strong enough words how Elections Manitoba, I believe, has a role to look at the microlevel of campaign, how those campaigns are financed, and how those campaigns are ran. Because there is no doubt in the minds of Manitobans that they want to see fair elections. That has been clearly demonstrated with the Monnin report-very clear in the Monnin report. That, I would argue, is the macro.

That is something in which Elections Manitoba has been very aggressive in addressing the macro, the party at the larger level, but if there is an area in which Elections Manitoba needs to improve, I would suggest to you it is at the microlevel. Again, I have personal examples of that and I am more than happy to share that with Elections Manitoba at any time. At another time, I would like to have another opportunity to go into more details. * (1 500) I made reference to the financing aspect of the microcampaign.

There are other things that occur at the constituency level during campaigns that Elections Manitoba has an obligation to look at, at the very least look at, and hopefully come up with a way that would see legislation brought into this Chamber and passed much in a fashion that it is today in the sense of all political parties or all MLAs support and being very much aware that after I sit down that there will likely be other speakers who might want to address the finances and how the Liberal Party's finances actually come about, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I think that there is room for improvement in all three political parties in the whole area of fundraising and how fundraising takes place for parties. I do not need to be given a lesson on how it is done, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I know how it is done and I am not impressed. I think that there is room for huge improvement on that front. There is no political party, at least inside this Chamber, that could escape or come out clean on this particular issue. There is a real need to visit that issue, but I would suggest to you that that is an issue that Elections Manitoba is, in fact, looking at or I trust is looking at.

Part of the reason why I am standing today is more so that microlevel. That microlevel is where I have the concern, because in the long run it is the constituency by constituency and what happens inside those constituencies that is going to ensure that we have a sense of democracy which Manitobans can feel comfortable and confident in, and that is critical. We do not want people to lose confidence in the system that we have. In conclusion, I trust-[interje ction] The member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) wants me to continue, but I do not have to fill the 40 minutes. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in conclusion, the primary push for me this afternoon, I believe- An Honourable Member: Is to get re-elected. Mr. Lamoureux: -is not necessarily to get re elected, even though it would be nice. My constituents will determine that. It is more so to emphasize the importance of looking at the local campaigns, and it is absolutely critical to see Elections Manitoba more proactive on what takes place at those local campaigns and come up-[interje ction] The member for Brandon .East (Mr. L. Evans) brings up an excellent point, independent returning of ficers.

That is a recommendation from Elections Manitoba. It is a good recommendation, and there are many other things such as that that could be done, that there is a responsibility to see done, and I hope to be given the privilege to be able to continue on as an MLA to ensure as much as possible that we will have a better sense of democracy at the local level and at the macro level. -

April 28, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 711 With those few words, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to say it. Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Yes, thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to enter into this debate. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I had occasion to hear some of the comments of members of this House, and I think there have been some very valid points put on the record. Some points I agree with. Some points I agree with in sentiment. Some points I think, particularly of the preceding speaker, are inaccurate.

I actually would like to spend some time, although I am limited in my time, in dealing with some of the inaccuracies I think that the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) or previously the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) had put on the record with respect to this act. I do not want to do that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because I want to focus on the essence of why we are here and why we are occasioned to deal with the particular amendments that we are dealing with with respect to this bill. We are not talking about a minor issue.

We are talking about an attempt by a political organization, by a group of individuals in a political party, to fix an election campaign. That is something that is unprecedented in this jurisdiction. Now, I appreciate the comments of the members for Inkster, The Maples and others with respect to things that go on at the local level. Things go on by all political parties that I do not agree with, that I do not think are appropriate. I think those that are appropriately discussed and reviewed and made to ensure that this system is more democratic and fair, I agree with that 10 0 percent. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, what we are talking about here is the most significant political scandal in Manitoba history since the Rodmond Roblin government was brought down in 19 17. I do not think that we should lose sight of that. I want to cite an instance when I met a constituent of mine. I do not know how that constituent votes. I was on the street and I was surprised with the fierceness and the anger that he approached the issue ofthe Monnin inquiry. He said to me, these people cheated. These people went against every democratic principle that we represent. Now this individual is of Polish extraction.

He said for years we fought in Poland to have a democratic state. Manitoba has sent observers to democratic elections across the world in order to demonstrate what democracy is all about, and yet we have these same individuals involved in the government who attempted to fix an election campaign. * (15 10 ) I can hardly talk about it in this Chamber, because I think it is so disgusting. I go further. It is one of the most tragic and saddest episodes in political history. I ask you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, do I think that the Roblin government, or anyone associated with the Roblin government, would have hatched a scheme to fix elections as happened under the present regime? I say not. Do I think the Walter Weir government would have done that? I say not. Do I think the Ed Schreyer government would have done that? I say not. Do I think that the Sterling Lyon government? As much as I disagree with Sterling Lyon on so many issues, I always felt that Mr. Lyon was a man of principle. I do not think the Conservatives under leadership of Sterling Lyon would have done that.

I do not think the Conservatives under the leadership of Sidney Spivak would have done that. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Conservative group under the leadership of Premier Gary Film on not only did that but was allowed to do that and allowed to cover up on that, and I think that is disgusting. I think the Premier ought to have resigned. I think the honourable thing he should have done would have been to resign. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, reference was made by the member for The Maples when I heard his comments on previous reading that candidates and individuals from political parties sometimes say things and do things that we cannot control, and that is true. All of us are caught in situations or are involved in situation where people around us in the zeal and in their best intentions perhaps do things that we do not approve of. It happens to all ofus.

712 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 Mr. Deputy Speaker, to have your key, your No. I, campaign organizer together with the head of your Treasury Board, together with lifetime members of the party hatch a plot to launch a political party in order to steal votes away from another political party in order to win an election is one of the most disgusting things that could be done in a democratic process. Many of us, most of us are second or third generation from countries where we never had access to democracy.

In fact, the institutions are so worshipped-! know when I go to any Ukrainian hall anywhere in Manitoba, there is always the picture of Taras Shevchenko on one side and Queen Elizabeth on the other, and I know that those people in that hall fundamentally worship the democratic system and honour the democratic system that we have that to have a government and key government officials attempt to subvert the system is nothing short of disgusting.

I welcome these amendments, and I know that these amendments will go some way towards preventing this kind of action from happening in the future and perhaps would have gone some way from preventing this action to go as far as it did. But I tell you, what went on literally makes my stomach upset. My constituent, whom I met on the street and told me about that, was ju st disgusted. I do not know how members on that side of the House can-1 do not know how they deal with it. I do not accuse, by the way, because I have a lot of respect for members on the opposite side of the House.

I consider myself a friend with most members on the other side of the House, but I do not know how they can go into meetings and caucus meetings with the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and not be self-absorbed in trying to get to the bottom of how this could happen to a political party that I believe would not have done it under Walter Weir, would not have done it under Sidney Spivak, would not have done it under Sterling Lyon, would not have done it under Duff Roblin and further back; but somehow were able to do it under the leadership of the member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon).

I think that question mark will remain, and regardless of what happens in the future, that question mark, that asterisk will be beside the member for Tuxedo for the rest of his political and after-career because it is such a disgusting and horrible episode. Now, if this was the first time that this plot -if this plot had materialized out of nowhere, perhaps I would not have been as critical, but I ju st want to go back to an episode which appeared to be isolated at one time, and that was during the by-elections, which, I believe, occurred in 19 92.

It was not the '93 by elections, it was '92 when two members of the Premier's staff phoned an open-line show. They phoned an open-line show and criticized a Liberal candidate. That was bad enough, and I suppose, again, all of us might have zealots and have others that would do something like that, but let me continue. Those individuals phoned the open-line show, and then when confronted, denied that they had phoned the open-line show. It was then found to be that there were two individuals in the Premier's Office who had done the phoning. Now that perhaps was an isolated event. Perhaps.

An Honourable Member: Then they wrote letters to the editor. Mr. Chomiak: My colleague indicates that letters were written, but let us look at this. They phoned. Okay. I would accept that. They then were caught, and they lied. Then they subsequently were found to be working in the Premier's Office and were disciplined. Okay, that will happen with all political parties. Subsequent to that, the Premier for New Brunswick attended the Olympics, and it became a national issue that the Premier for New Brunswick was attending the Olympics and was being sponsored by IBM.

Now our Premier., the member for Tuxedo, was also attending the Olympics, and he was interviewed by an open line host in Winnipeg and asked: Who is paying for it? He indicated it was the Pan Am Games. Subsequently we discovered that the Premier's hotel was being paid for by IBM. Now, let me add, this was a national scandal. The Premier of New Brunswick was forced to apologize and return the money. And the member for Tuxedo, the Premier, came back to Manitoba and said: I sent the money back; I did not do anything wrong. End of issue. - -

April 28, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 713 Mr. Deputy Speaker, first, assistants in the Premier's Office phone, lie, and then own up. Then the Premier gets caught in the IBM scandal, then he owns up. Then we have the incident for which we are dealing with the amendments to the act, which has precipitated this entire debate. I frankly do not believe the First Minister. regret having to say that, because I do not think I could have said that about Duff Roblin, about Sidney Spivak, about Walter Weir, about Sterling Lyon.

I would not have said that about them; but I can say that about the present incumbent in the of fice, and that is sad. You know, the Premier, well, I do not want to go on, because I just find it disgusting. I do not want to relive that history, because I find it so distasteful. But the point I want to make- An Honourable Member: You are loving every second of it. Mr. Chomiak: The member for Assiniboia says: "loving every second of it." I find this entire episode disgusting. An Honourable Member: So do I. Mr.

Chomiak: I am glad the member for Assiniboia finds it disgusting, and I am curious to see what her comments will be about these amendments, and I would be hopeful that she would ask her Leader some of these questions that we are raising here today. I hope she will ask the Premier, whom she worked for directly, the same questions that we are asking today, because I think we ought to get to the bottom of this. I think a concerted plot on the part of the chief election official for the Conservative Party, on the part of the secretary of the Treasury Board, on the part of lifetime Conservatives, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, is beyond pale, anything that we have dealt with in this Legislature. It is beyond-sure the $500,000 is a ridiculous amount of money to spend on health advertising, and sure the sign campaign stuff is not acceptable, but to hatch a plot outside of the Premier, inside the Premier's Office to launch a political campaign, to take votes away, to cheat and to fix an election is beyond and is in a category all of its own, which is why I have sat here and not dealt with this issue. * (1 520) Will these amendments, Mr. Deputy Speaker, get to the bottom of the issue? I do not think so.

Perhaps if these amendments had been in place we would have dealt with this scandal and the taint of this scandal a lot sooner. Drafting a code of ethics by an individual who leads a party, you know, is to me a nonstarter. The present Premier has to step aside when it comes to a code of ethics if he intends to-I do not think we would have needed a code of ethics when this party was led by other individuals.

We did not need a code of ethics when Sterling Lyon led the party or Sidney Spivak led the party or Walter Weir led the party or Duff Roblin led the party, but when Gary Filmon leads this party, they have got to have a code of ethics, but frankly a code of ethics is too late. I think the Premier ought to have resigned. think the Premier's reputation is tarnished by virtue of this. Again, I was so struck, I was struck on the doorstep by the comments of my constituents to this matter.

You know, I am used to hearing concerns about health care, and I am used to hearing concerns about taxation, and I am used to hearing concerns about education and concerns about public safety, but I did not expect, I did not expect the anger on the door step with the present Premier, Premier Filmon, and the scandal. I am sorry to say that the scandal taints all of us. That has been canvassed in this Chamber and we have talked about it, but I was surprised at the extent of the anger that the public has towards our Premier as a result of this scandal. Do I think it is justified? Yes, I do.

Do I think it should be resolved? Yes, I do. How should it be resolved? The Premier should honourably resign as a result of his leadership and what he allowed to happen. Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if the Premier did not know, and that is a big if, in my opinion, I guess the question would be-and again I want

714 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 to emphasize that we all have people around us who, through their zeal and efforts, wish to do the best they can. All of us, I am sure, have been guilty at some time of having people do things that we did not think was appropriate. But when questions were posed and questions were raised, and when this leader did not follow through, as he did, then I think he has no choice but to resign. An Honourable Member: He called a full inquiry. Mr. Chomiak: Now, I am glad the member for Assiniboia (Mrs.

Mcintosh) indicated the Premier called a full inquiry, because I want to relate to her an episode that was witnessed by the media in this House. [interje ction] Yes, the Premier called a full inquiry after he told me personally he would never call a full ju dicial inquiry. I said to him: "You will call aj udicial inquiry." And her Leader and good friend, the member for Tuxedo (Mr.

Filmon) said: "No, never." And I said: "You will call a judicial inquiry." He said: "No, never." The only reason he called a full ju dicial inquiry was he was forced by day after day of questioning in the Legislature by members in this House. He had no choice but to call for a ju dicial inquiry, and he would not have if we had not pushed him. He told me so himself, Mr. Deputy Speaker. He told me he would not call a full judicial inquiry. I told him he would. He called a full inquiry, and the member attempts to use that as a defence for the Premier?

Good heavens, the Premier did everything but stand on his head and spit nickels to avoid calling a ju dicial inquiry, and only when he was forced into a comer did he do so, and he has been back pedalling and doing everything in his power to remove himself from the accountability as a result of that. You know, it is hard to believe that in the 19 90s in Manitoba, of all places, this sounds like something that would come up maybe 60, 70 years ago, perhaps in other ju risdictions.

But to think that we are in the same category as other ju risdictions where there was a planned, concerted effort to circumvent the rules of democracy is absolutely disgusting. It is hard to believe that we can go to other ju risdictions and review their elections when we have, on the record, in Manitoba, a scandal of this proportion. You know, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, these amendments will assist us in preventing perhaps something of this kind from happening, but I cannot think of a political party or political figure in Manitoba history over the past 25 or 30 years that I have been directly involved that I think-and I am thinking very carefully-was capable of doing this. I cannot think of a political figure that I think would go as far as the member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon) allowed to happen with his group. Now I hope, Mr. Deputy Speaker-and I have said to members opposite that I do not believe members opposite knew of this.

You know I am quite surprised at the anger some members opposite express- An Honourable Member: It is not anger, it is annoyance. Mr. Chomiak: And the annoyance, as the member for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh) expresses, when a ju dicial inquiry has found as many significant things: In all my years on the Bench I never encountered as many 'blank' in one proceeding as I did in this inquiry. You know, Mr. Deputy Speaker: In all of my years on the bench, I never encountered as many 'blank' in one proceeding as I did this inquiry. How can members opposite defend that?

If the apology is sincere, then I think the member for Assiniboia would accept it as such. As I said, is it not ironic that I am speaking today during a day when one of the great political statesmen of this century is visiting our province and our city, indeed an individual whose statements and whose books I have read and whom I have quoted, and it is ironic and perhaps a bit sad that on a day like this I have to talk about a scandal that has served to denigrate Manitoba and all of us through its intensity and through its bitterness and through its disgusting follow-up. You know, for the member for - -

April 28, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 715 Assiniboia, I would rather win the elections on the straight issues than have to deal with this kind of stuff, and if the member for Assiniboia could call her party to order and if she could somehow rein them in, perhaps we could deal with the issues as they relate. I suppose members opposite would rather we not speak on it. I would rather not speak on it. I find this disgusting.

I find it disgusting, and when I was quoted at the press conference saying it was one of the saddest days in the politjcal history ofthis province when this report came out, I meant that, and it was, and I think members in this House feel that. So I guess the question is where do we go from here. We have these amendments to build on, Mr. Deputy Speaker. They will go some way, I suppose, to restoring the tarnished image of this province as a result of the neglect and the malfeasance of the Premier (Mr. Film on) and those members of the Conservative Party who participated in the scandal and in the plot.

But I think it is a sad statement on perhaps and I would wish to have this question answered: Is it the Conservative Party today or is it the leadership of the Conservative Party that have allowed this to happen? That is an interesting question because I do not think the old Tory philosophy would have sustained this kind of scandal, and, as I said previously, I do not think any of the previous leaders of the Conservative Party whom I am familiar with, Duff Roblin, Walter Weir, Sidney Spivak, Sterling Lyon- An Honourable Member: When did you change you mind about them? You hated them when they were here. Mr.

Chomiak: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the member for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh) is chirping from her seat. It reminds me of a former member who sat in that particular seat. The only difference was I used to pay attention to what the comments were of that former member, because he had some interesting suggestions. * (1 530) But as I said previously in my comments, I do not think that the previous leadership of the Conservative Party would have allowed themselves to be dragged into this morass.

I dare say if any of those leaders were caught in this kind of a scandal, I think they would have done what the parliamentary system demanded. They would have done the honourable thing, and they would have resigned and saved their party and saved the public and saved the process from having to go through what we have had to go through in this jurisdic tion as a result of hanging on for purposes, of what I do not know-for what I do not know, self-vindication, perhaps. I do not know and I am not going to speculate as to why the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) did not do the honourable thing and did not resign as a result of what happened, because no matter how you mince it, no matter how you cut it, no matter how you try to dance around the issue, it still goes back to what my constituent said on the street, that he could not believe that a party could do this, could get away with it and could stay in office as a result of a scandal of this kind. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have been urged by members on my side of the House to refer to some of the quotes from this report, but I do not even like reading these quotes anymore.

I mean, I cannot believe that in Manitoba in the 19 90s we would have a Chief Justice accusing a political party of this kind of activity. It is absolutely disgusting. When I anticipated the report coming out, I never thought I would see words like this written on a piece of paper about a political party led by the member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon). I think it is an indictment of the leadership, and it is an indictment of perhaps 11 years of far too long in office.

I do not care who the political figure is, whether it was the figures I ref erred to, whether it was Duff Roblin or Sidney Spivak or Walter Weir or Sterling Lyon. Even those individuals I think after 11 years in office would have realized that their time was up and would have realized after 11 years in office matters creep in and cracks appear and a renewal is necessary, otherwise corruption, which is inevitable, sets in. The problem is it set in a lot earlier in this particular regime, and perhaps it set in at the very onset for all that I know, in reference to the comments I said earlier.

There is much, much more that I could put on the record that I choose not to, Mr. Deputy Speaker,

716 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 because I do not want to continue dealing with some of these issues. I close by saying I think these amendments will do something to right the wrongs that have occurred in Manitoba, that the honourable thing for the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to have done in the parliamentary system would have been to resign.

The decent and correct thing, and something that would have removed the tarnish from, the stain from all Conservative members, would have been for the Premier to resign and do the honourable thing and not worry about clinging into office for whatever reason I do not know. The Premier no longer has the confidence or the legitimacy to continue one day longer. After 11 years he does not have the legitimacy or the confidence in this House or the people of Manitoba.

The Premier could go a long way towards improving the situation in the province by doing the honoura ble thing, and that is stepping aside and doing the right thing for the people of Manitoba, not clinging to office, not hiding behind the defences, not having to defend the activities of his friends and associates on the plot, on the worst scandal to hit this province since the Rodmond Roblin scandal that brought down that government-the worst. Think about it, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In 70 years we have not had a scandal of this kind until this government. [interje ction] The member for Assiniboia (Mrs.

Mcintosh) can say all that she wants, but I just reiterate to her that I do not think Duff Roblin, Sidney Spivak, Sterling Lyon or Walter Weir would have been involved in a plot or allowed a plot like this to be hatched under their leadership. I do not believe it. As much as I disliked Sterling Lyon-good heavens, and I had my disagree ments with Sterling Lyon-I thought he was an honourable man and I say he is an honourable man. I do not think Sterling Lyon would have allowed that to happen.

If Sterling Lyon was caught in the position that this Premier was caught in, he would have done the honourable thing and he would have resigned whether he knew about the plot or not, whether he knew about IBM paying or not, whether he knew his assistants were phoning an open-line show and denied it or not. The honourable thing would have been for this Premier to resign, not cling to power, and he would have removed the taint from all of us in Manitoba. When we have someone like Mr.

Havel in Manitoba, we would not have to sort of hold our heads because we have just gone through a political scandal that threatened to undermine democracy at a time when his nation is coming into a system of democracy. We all come from second and third generations, from countries where our parents and grandparents cherished our democratic system and fought for a democratic system, and now we have a leadership that sought to undermine our democratic system. An Honourable Member: That is unfair. Mr. Chomiak: That is unfair, the member for Assiniboia says.

For the secretary of the Treasury Board, for the head of the Conservative campaign, for the leadership of this political party to allow to happen what happened did not undermine democracy. Then you did not read the Monnin report. You did not read those quotes, and perhaps I should read those quotes from the Monnin report, because that is the most indicting part of the Monnin report, where he used the individuals who are vulnerable to try to subvert the democratic system, individuals whom you do not have the time of day for most of the time, but if you want to use them in a political campaign, you do it.

That is why I hate talking about this report, because it is disgusting. If we think Saskatchewan was bad, that was financial corruption, Mr. Deputy Speaker. They did not try to fix a campaign. Show me another jurisdic tion in the past 50 years where they tried to fix a campaign. Show me. Madam Speaker in the Chair An Honourable Member: British Columbia. Mr. Chomiak: Well, put it on the record for the member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik). He talks about other provinces.

I know the Socreds did a lot in British Columbia, but I do not even think that the Socreds in British Columbia tried to fix a campaign like this party and the leadership of this party did, Madam Speaker. -

April 28, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 717 Having made my comments on this bill, I hope not to have to speak about this report again. I hope that in our political future we do not have an episode of this kind. Frankly, I do not think any member who took over leadership of that party whom I am looking across would allow themselves to get involved in this kind of a despicable, corruptible act. With those comments, unless I should perhaps, members opposite are asking for more, but I know members on this side of the House wish to put their comments on the record. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I rise to add a few remarks, to make a few remarks, add a few comments to the debate on Bill 17 . I, like the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak, do not necessarily relish a debate on this particular subje ct, although there are various elements in the bill that are worthwhile supporting. I am sure none of us in the House have difficulty in supporting the passage of the bill because the specific recommendations in it are based on the recommendations of the Monnin inquiry.

I think, Madam Speaker, that Manitobans, by and large, are well served by their public representatives. I think, by and large, this is true whether you are talking about MLAs, M.P.s or city coun cillors or municipal councillors. I think, by and large, I as a Manitoban and we as Manitobans are well served by people who are elected and who, I believe, are basically good people, honest people, who want to do a conscientious job. * (1 540) Now, we may have terrific conflict in terms of policies. We may not agree on the policies in education or health care or social services.

Yet I am sure we all have the same goals, same obje ctives, and that is the welfare of the people of Manitoba. We all have the same obje ctives of wanting to ensure that the people of Manitoba enjoy the highest standard of living possible; that they have quality public services, quality education, quality health care, and so on. Our differences, of course, are how we get there. Our policy differences are quite legitimate, so we can disagree, as we often do and as we usually do, on the policy approaches, left and right and whatever, nevertheless, I think whoever-and I speak as one who has been here about 30 years.

I have been on both sides of the House-1 5 years on the government side and 15 years more or less on this side-and I know what it is like to be in government. I know what it is like to have that responsibility, and it is difficult. You do your best, and you think you are making the right decisions; but, as I have said to some of my colleagues on occasion when I think back, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Sometimes when you think you are bringing in a great program or a great policy, you find that people get upset about it or it does not work the way it was initially envisaged.

There is no question that this whole episode has really grown. It has become much bigger than anyone here, I am sure, anticipated initially. Of course, once the inquiry got rolling and all the presentations were made and the reports in the media, everyone in the province, including myself, became more aware of what was involved. I did not pay that much attention initially. I did not think it was that much of an issue. It was a concern, of course. Vote rigging should not be condoned by any means, but, at the same time, I thought, well, it is a problem.

I did not think that it would be expanded as it has been obviously with the Monnin inquiry and of course with all the statements that have been made to the inquiry and all the information that the inquiry uncovered. We should be concerned that this whole episode is a kind of an episode that does under mine our democratic system. It undermines the confidence that people have in their elected representatives. It undermines the confidence that people have in the party system, and this is very sad.

I become very concerned whenever I read in the papers or hear on the media, hear on the news about problems that a particular representative may have, whether it is in Quebec or Saskatchewan or wherever, the whole episode of the Saskatchewan Conservative MLAs. This is a tragedy. It is a tragedy for those individuals. It is a tragedy for the province of Manitoba, but I say it is a tragedy for all of us. It is one of those episodes that also is undermining the confidence that the public have in our system.

718 LEGI SLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 So if any of us err or go astray, it does reflect on all of us whether we like it or not, because people very cynically say: oh, well, those damned politicians, what do you expect? This is really sad. Public office, in my view, is among the highest callings that one can pursue. It is a public office. Holding a public office, you have the trust of the people, you have the responsibility to serve your fellow citizens. It is one that is not a selfish calling, it is a selfless calling. It is one that you give of yourself.

Indeed, many members, and particularly those in the cabinet, do sacrifice, and I know of many instances, their personal lives, their family lives, because of the time and effort and energy they put into performing their duties as an administrator, as an elected official, many a family has paid the price for that. I tell people who cynically say to me, well, what do you expect, you people? There are some people, it ju st boggles my mind the comments they will make about elected representatives.

They are not talking about any party, they are ju st talking about elected people, and they make such horrible statements, I would not even want to stand up here and repeat them. They are terribly negative, terribly uninf ormed. I like to ask them, well, what do you suggest? If you do not like our democratic system that we have where we have people who stand for office and try to do their best and for some reason or other there is a failing or they pursue a policy you do not like, you complain about it, but what do you suggest? What was your alternative? I like to urge them to get into politics themselves.

I mean, do not sit there and complain. Many people, incidentally, who do complain are the people who have the least amount of knowledge as to how the system works, whether I am talking whether it is provincial, federal or municipal. So I say to them: get into politics yourself and do what you can, whatever party you choose. Get involved and make it even more democratic, bring more people in. It is far better than any alternative. I often say, well, if you do not like this system, you can have Hitler. You can have a dictatorial system. You can have a Franco Spain or you can have a Stalin.

He did not worry about public opinion. They did not worry about all kinds of individuals and their particular concerns. They did not have to feel that they responded. You can have a dictatorship if you do not like what we have. There are a number of threats to our political system. There are a number of threats to what we offer the people in the system we have. Incidentally, I would say, Madam Speaker, I think the parliamentary system that we have, for all its failings, is perhaps one of the best systems we have in the world.

Our neighbours to the south of course have what I would call the congressional system, where you have a division of powers between the executive and legislative branches, and you have a system whereby, although there are parties, they do not have the firm, strict caucus system that we have. Therefore it leads to a Jot of difficulties, namely the opening up of individual members making them vulnerable to lobbies by various individuals and groups within the United States. I think it is really sad when you find that many American senators and representatives are influenced unduly by specific lobbies.

There are all kinds of areas where lobbies are very effective. There is a gun lobby; there is a tobacco lobby; there are lobbies on oil and gas; there are lobbies on just about everything under the sun. I am reminded, when I speak of the gun lobby, about a program I heard a few days ago where a U.S. state senator in Colorado was speaking, I think it was on As It Happens, and she was talking about the National Rifle Association and it, as a very powerful lobby, influencing the state legislators in Colorado where this tragedy occurred last week, where a massacre occurred in this high school.

At any rate, before the Colorado State Legislature is and I do not know whether it has now been withdrawn, but she said there is a bill, she was talking last week, before this state legislature that is going to allow anyone in the State of Colorado to carry a hidden weapon. Anyone can carry a hidden weapon, and that law will countermand and overrule any municipal or regional restriction on guns because a Jot of the cities and towns in Colorado have certain restnctwns. This Jaw wiJI countermand that, will override that, and everyone will be able, once the Jaw is passed, to carry a hidden gun. - - -

April 28, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 719 She was asked by the moderator, well, surely this is not going to pass, or what is going to happen? She said it is going to pass, and she said one of the reasons it is going to pass is because of the influence of the National Rifle Association, the gun lobby. Specific members, in effect, were in the pockets of the gun lobby. This is sad. You see other examples in the U.S. Senate and in the U.S. House of Representatives where the tobacco lobby has a great influence and is preventing laws to be passed that would curtail the use of tobacco in the United States.

At any rate, I am saying that even though we have our difficulties with the parliamentary system, I think it is far better than what we see in the congressional system that is operating south of the border. We have problems and deficiencies, and I think one which I would like to highlight is that there is probably too much executive control in the parliamentary system. A premier or a prime minister, let us say a prime minister, has far more control than a president of the United States.

The president of the United States has to balance off his power against the Congress, both the Senate and the House of Representatives. A prime minister in this country, once he is elected with a majo rity, has infinitely superior powers, and we can see this with Mr. Chretien right now. What Mr. Chretien says is what goes in the Government of Canada, and I think that is sad. That is far, far too much executive control. * (1 550) You see that in this Legislature, as well, where there is too much control in the hands of a premier, and I say that no matter what the intentions are of any premier.

They may be very good intentions, but there is a lot of control in that person's hands, perhaps too much control. Maybe we should have a system of freer votes where people can vote on the basis of their conscience, on the basis of what they believe represents the interests of their particular constituents rather than being bound, as we are, so closely and strictly by caucus solidarity on ju st about every issue. There is room for more free votes.

But, having said that, Madam Speaker, I want to tell you that we are all concerned about the comments made in the Monnin report, and one, of course, is the knowledge of the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this whole episode. If the Premier tells me to my face that he knew not of it, I would believe him and I would take him at his word. But what is happening, and I can tell you, people on the street do not believe that he was totally ignorant of what was happening.

These are people in Winnipeg, in Brandon, who just on their own bring it up and said that he knew of it and if he did not know of it he should have known of it because he was the Premier. He was the boss, he was on top, and because the people involved in the scandal were very close to the Premier. Taras Sokolyk was campaign manager and the chief of the Premier's staff and had known the Premier for 15 years. There was Jules Benson who was a key political strategist and head of the Treasury Board, which is a civil service position.

Admittedly, I recall back in the Schreyer years, we amended I guess it was The Civil Service Act to allow civil servants to be more engaged in politics, but it was never meant that the very senior people, key people, you know, would be in that. I mean if somebody was working in the Highways department on a road, or somebody was providing some technical service in the Department of Health or Agriculture or whatever, we did not feel that we should restrict that person from participating in politics, providing certain rules were followed, you know, taking leave of absence, et cetera.

But here the head of the Treasury Board is a very key civil service position. It is a very key position in the government, period. Many a person has said to me that the head of the Treasury Board is probably the most powerful person in government, even more powerful than a lot of cabinet ministers. Then there is Gordon McFarlane, the party comptroller. There was a Susan Hoplock mentioned in the report and of course involved in this, who is a top appoint ments official and campaign office manager. Then, of course, Allan Aitken, who is the Inter lake campaign manager.

Cubby Barrett, former PC Manitoba Fund board member and honorary lifetime PC member. As far as Mr. Aitken and Mr. Barrett concerned me, I would consider them sort of

720 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 99 local people. When I first heard about this, I thought, well, this is a local thing. Something is happening in the riding, whereby they are attempting to run another so-called native party candidate to take votes away from the NDP and come up the middle sort of thing. But then when you get these other names that I mentioned Sokolyk, Benson, McFarlane, Hoplock-this is beyond a constituency matter.

This is involving the party itself, including the others who are volunteers like Ami Thorsteinson the PC Manitoba Fund chair and also head of some government boards, then Bob Kozminski, a long-time fundraiser for the PC party. So these are key people who were involved with the central party organization and in some instances with the central government. So to that extent I was surprised, and I think this is why people are concerned, because of who was involved. It was not simply a few people at the constituency level who ran away with some enthusiasm and did what they did. Mr.

Justice Monnin makes a number of quotes that I found very surprising. Page 16 , he says: "In all my years on the Bench, I never encountered as many liars in one proceeding as I did during this inquiry." This is incredible. [interje ction] It is a quote. Another quote: "It is disheartening indeed to realize that an oath to tell the truth means so little to some people." Another one: "A vote-rigging plot constitutes an unconscionable debasement of the citizen's right to vote.

To reduce the voting rights of individuals is a violation of our democratic system." Another quote: the basic premise of the vote-rigging plot "was that aboriginal people in these ridings had historically voted for the NDP, but the 'aboriginal vote' would be split if there were aboriginal candidates running. The attempt here at vote splitting ... was in my opinion clearly unethical and morally reprehensible." This is Chief Justice Monnin's statement. These are not my statements. These are statements from the report.

Page II from his inquiry, Judge Monnin says: "Political mores have reached a dangerous low when one party member can actively support his party, but sees nothing obje ctionable in helping to finance and organize the candidate of a second party in order to harm a third party." Another quote: "I cannot ignore the fact that throughout this episode, especially during the investigation and at the hearings, some of these witnesses exhibited a degree of arrogance or 'I know better' attitude." And then another quote: "A considerable amount of time, effort and money was expended by this Commission in order to confirm what should have been freely admitted at the outset." "The bank records and other documentation of the PC Party of Manitoba (Election) account of other individuals had to be obtained and examined to find out what really had occurred." So these are comments made by the Chief Justice, and they are actually very shocking.

We can go on to all kinds of details. He goes into all kinds of details. On page 18 , "I believe that this plot had its origin in mid-March 19 95 during a meeting held in Winnipeg in Sokolyk's office at Party headquarters. In addition to Sokolyk, Aitken, Barrett and Trachuk were present." At any rate, he refers to Gordon McFarlane who "breached the law in causing a false statement to be filed with Elections Manitoba contrary to sees. 81 and 83(

b) of the Act." He asks: "Why did he, Benson, as the top civil servant who was supposed to be out of the political realm, ask for the records, bank statements and cancelled cheques of a political party and proceed to mark and note these entries? He had no business being there in the first place." That is a quote from page 45. Another quote from page 56: "Of these 350 cheques, an estimated 12 7 were flagged as indicating that the date, year, name of payee, and the amount payable in figures and letters were in Benson's handwriting. A similar number of coding slips or vouchers were prepared by Benson as well.

It would appear from an examination of exhibit 52, that Benson went to PC campaign headquarters and prepared cheques and vouchers on least nine separate occasions." Then on page 57, another quote: "Benson obviously did not tell the whole truth regarding the extent of his involvement in the 19 95 - -

April 28, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 721 election campaign." "I am of the view that Benson's involvement was improper, and that certain party members failed to see the clear distinction between a civil servant and a party volunteer." At any rate, Madam Speaker, there is a lot of shocking detail in the report. I am referring to information that is public, has been published for all to read and see. He goes into detail on many members, many Conservative members, party members that were involved. He talks about cover-up, about lying, about breaking the law and obstructing justice to inquiry lawyers a

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-16
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 16.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6da9d9ced92c0fd2118a7b13a5650644c04b89b0

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