Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 69 (30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-69

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, March 27, 1974 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. 1895 MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. STANDING COMMITTEE REPORT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Reports of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments begs me to present the following as their First Report.

Your Committee met for organization on Wednesday, March 27, 1974, and appointed Mr. Jenkins as Chairman. Your Committee has agreed that, for the remainder of the session, the quorum of this Committee shall consist of 16 members. Your Committee has considered: Bill No. 22 -

an Act to amend The Law Society Act, And has agreed to report the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Thompson, that the Report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Questions. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Official Opposition)(River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the First Minister, my question is to the Acting Premier. I wonder if he can indicate whether the government will confirm that a letter has been sent to them from the President of the Manitoba Metis Federation asking for an investigation into the charges relating to the fishermen's co-op and stating whether the government intends, or at least would indicate their intention about reimbursement of losses that have occurred to their fishermen. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (Minister of Finance)(St. Johns): No, Mr.

Speaker, I cannot confirm that. MR. SPIVAK: Well, I wonder if the Minister of Finance would take the matter as notice and would be in a position to indicate tomorrow what the government's intention would be. MR. CHERNIA CK: Mr. Speaker, a record will be made of the request. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I. H. ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party)(Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Mines responsible for the Manitoba Development Corporation.

Could he indicate to the House how much money was lost, approximately how much money was lost, by the public creditors as opposed to the government, upon the bankruptcy or commercial failure of St. Jean Sportswear? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manage ment)(Inkster): Mr. Speaker, that would not be within my jurisdiction, but if there was a bankruptcy the rules respecting bankruptcies would require, as I understand it, that all that information would be launched with the Registrar in Bankruptcy. Mr.

Speaker, while I'm on my feet - on a matter of privilege, both newspapers carried headlines to the effect that I denied that the government was negotiating equity with Abitibi. The truth or non-truth of that position has never been indicated in this House. I never did deny that the government was negotiating with Abitibi. In other words, both headlines and to some extent the content of the stories are incorrect. As I recall it, the Honourable Member for St. Boniface asked me whether the Manitoba Development Corporation was negotiating equity in Abitibi.

And as I recall it - and again without the Hansard in front of me or knowing what it said - I said, no, and then I said, but that would. be a misleading answer, that the government

1896 March 27, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. GREEN cont'd) .... was dealing with Abitibi and that all of the answers previous to that did not exclude equity positions. It did not verify equity positions but did not exclude equity positions. The reason that I indicated the answer was misleading should be obvious; and if it is not, then I indicate to the honourable member he referred to the Manitoba Development Corporation, and I indicated "no". The reason I did that is because all of the discussions between Abitibi have been with the Department of Mines and Natural Resources. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the Mines Minister responsible for the Manitoba Develop ment Corporation. Does he - or has he had it brought to his attention, that the Manitoba Development Corporation encouraged trade creditors to continue supplying St. Jean Sportswear with credit, because the government was hoping to resuscitate the company and that those creditors who did supply credit have now suffered a $200, 000 loss? MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot confirm that, and I know that - again my experience with bankruptcy in the private sector is that creditors become very resentful when they are unable to collect their claims, understandable so, Mr. Speaker. It happens in every bankruptcy and sometimes all kinds of bitterness results and all kinds of recriminations. If the honourable member is correct in what he says, I am not certain, but I believe that the so-agreed creditors could make a claim against the Manitoba Development Corporation. I'm not certain, but it seems to me that that would indeed be a possibility. MR. ASPER: Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister. It related to questions and answers of the same type over the last year or so. Could the Minister indicate the government's policy or whether the government has a policy of repaying or making good to creditors who support MDC-backed companies when they have done so at the request of or by the inducement of the MDC? I recall a statement of policy being :inade by the First Minister, I believe, about a year or so - maybe two years ago, to the effect that . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Could the Minister indicate whether there is such a policy to reimburse creditors who lose money as a result of supporting a government-backed company? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I indicated quite the contrary. When the Manitoba Develop ment Corporation loans money to a debenture, loans money to a company, secures itself by a debenture, it exercises every right to first security under that debenture, realizes that security and, if there is anything left over for unsecured creditors, it is paid. That was done with Damascus Steel; it was done with Cowl Equipment; it was done with numerous other corporations.

The fact that the Development Corporation is one of the advancers of funds should not induce any creditor to advance moneys to the corporation on any other than prudent business practices. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Will the Minister confirm, that in substantially all of the cases where MDC supported companies have gone bankrupt - the leading ones have been discussed in this House - that the entire security has gone to the MDC, and the unsecured general creditors have received zero? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the case is, Mr.

Speaker, that in most of the instances that the honourable member is referring to, the MDC got less money back than it advanced but it got a first charge. And, Mr. Speaker, if anything else happened, if we had paid creditors beyond the advances that we had made to the company when we were secured by a first charge, the Honourable the Leader of the Liberal Party would accuse me of mismanagement, squander ing of public funds and giving money to creditors who had no entitlement to it. MR.

ASPER: In the light of the Minister's answer, will he please explain why the Government of Manitoba, having first charge on the assets of CFI, found it necessary to pay several millions of dollars to the unsecured creditors in that case? MR. GREEN: Because the - just to one extent. All of that was in litigation. The lawyer for the MDC, Mr. Waiter Newman, Q. C. said that he registered a debenture for the previous administration and for ours - because he was also our lawyer - and that his debenture was a genius type of debenture. It provided us with the security after the unsecured creditors.

It is the only registered mortgage in history which succeeded in giving you a second charge to unsecured creditors. A MEMBER: How did you make out?

March 27, 1974 1897. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. Order, please. MR. SPIV AK: My question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources answering for the Manitoba Development Corporation and the Communities Economic Development Fund. I wonder if he can indicate to the House that there have been occasions in which the Communities Economic Development Fund and the Manitoba Development Corporation have in fact guaranteed credit that has been applied to companies in which they have been involved both in equity or by way of a loan. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR.

GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, this has occurred. And by the way, Mr. Speaker, the equity companies stand in a somewhat different position than companies that have received a mere loan, with the corporation taking back a first debenture. But I would imagine, yes, there are times when the Development Corporation has indicated that if a creditor supplies, his purchases will be guaranteed, although I am not aware of any specific one - my understand· ing is that there have been. MR.

SPIVAK: Then I wonder if the Minister can confirm that the Communities Economic Development Fund guaranteed some of the creditors of R & M Construction? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I cannot recall that. I have read voluminous material on this matter since approximately the day after, or the afternoon of the day, starting from the afternoon of the day that the honourable member introduced it into the House. I can recall that one of the things that occurred is that they did not pay all of the creditors of JMK and that that was the problem.

I cannot recall whether they guaranteed any of the creditors of R and M, I'd have to go back and look at it. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, I wonder if the Minister is in a position to confirm whether some of the loan officers of the Communities Economic Development Fund established credit for the by alluding to the fact that the moneys would be paid by the Communities Economic Develop ment Fund. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I can't confirm that or deny it - but I want to go back and remind honourable members that I am not in a position to answer questions on the day to day operations of commercial enterprises under either of the two funds, although I provide a lot more information than the Leader of the Opposition used to supply when he was the Minister in charge of the Fund, but I'm not able to do it on a day to day basis.

The Communities Economic Development Fund will be back before the Economic Development Committee, hopefully very soon; the honourable member will have a full opportunity of examining the activities of that organization in such scope as was never provided under the previous Conserv ative administration, and to my understanding is not provided under any similar loaning institution by any government in this country. MR. SPIVAK: To the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. In view of his last statement, I wonder whether the Minister can confirm that two directors of the Community Economic Development Fund, Mr.

Donald Mcivor and Mr. Ben Thompson will be allowed to appear before the Committee and allowed to be examined by the committee? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the answer that I gave to the previous question is correct, without the supplement that the honourable member now requests. I indicated previously that that is something for Committee to decide, as to who it wants to hear. He knows my opinion full well that I feel, that the Chairman has answered for the Committee and will continue to answer for the Committee. MR.

SPIVAK: Yes, I wonder if he can confirm if the Chairman of the Committee takes his instructions from the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. I do believe that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is aware the question was totally out of order and unfair. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister for Co-operative Affairs, Co-operative Development. Can he confirm that the Northern Fishing Co-operatives have left a trail of debts around the City of Winnipeg in the approximate amount of $300, 000?

HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture)(Lac du Bonnet): Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not in a position to know the extent of debts unpaid or due or otherwise of the co-operatives in northern Manitoba. That is a matter for their own board of directors to deal with.

1898 March 27, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. ASPER: Well, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. In view of the fact that credit was provided because of the well known government support for the Co-ops . . . MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR . ASP ER: ... does the Minister have any plan to reimburse the creditors who supplied credit to the Northern Fishing Co-ops and now face total loss? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Liberal Party astonishes me, knowing that he has the capability to understand finance better than that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden): Mr.

Speaker, I address this question to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and Environmental Management. Is the provincial government negotiating with any oil companies at the present time with regard to the future exploration in the province? And a follow up. Has the government side contracts with Asamara Oils, Berry Petroleums and Spruce Oils Limited? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for having given me verbal notice of this question prior to the session having commenced.

I am aware that we have signed contracts with Asamara and, I believe, Berry Petroleum. I am aware that there are continued negotiations with various firms; as to whether there has been a signed contract with the third one or whether that is under negotiation, I cannot give him from memory - I will take it as notice. But we did sign an announced contract with Asamara, and I believe there was one recently concluded with a firm which I seem to recall as being named Berry Petroleum, and that is done with the Manitoba Mineral Resources Company. · MR. McGREGOR: Mr. Speaker, supplementary to the same Minister.

Will the Minister release to this House details of those and other contracts when they come? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'll certainly look into it. We certainly will have no objection to releasing the overall nature of the contract, which was already done sometime ago, but I'll give my honourable friend particulars of it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. J. PAUL MARION (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Honourable the Attorney-General.

Has the Minister received a complaint from Tudor House in Selkirk dealing with strikers harassing the staff of that establishment? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General)(Selkirk): I think that the Minister of Labour has received such a complaint. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. MARION: I'd like to direct my question then, Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable the Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Transcona): There have been complaints, Mr.

Speaker, as generally are normal in any industrial dispute in which there are picketers. Different people have different opinions as to the involvement of picketers; nothing of any serious nature. MR. MARION: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Was it ascertained if the staff were being followed from their place of business to their homes by the picketers in a method of intimidation ? MR. PAULLEY: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, but people being individuals some use different approaches. But as far as I'm aware, at the site of the strike there hasn't been any incidents that are not within the general common law.

MR. MARION: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker. What steps are being taken to insure that the present harassment ceases and desists? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend from St. Boniface is attempting to establish some presumption which I do not share with him. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture. It relates to the recent introduction of a bill into the Saskatchewan Legislature, which will restrict . MR. SPEAKER: Question please.

March 27, 1974 ORAL QUEST IONS MR. G. JOHNSTON: ... farm land to non-residents. My question is, how many Manitoba farmers will be affected by the passage of this bill? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. 1899 MR. USKlW: Well, Mr. Speaker, I really don't know the content of the bill that my honourable friend refers to, nor would I know how many farmers it would affect. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, has the Minister had any consultation with the Agricultural Minister in Saskatchewan with respect to the introduction of this bill? MR. USKIW: No, Mr. Speaker. No. MR. G.

JOHNSTON: Well, will the Minister give an assurance that he will hold a consultation to see how many Manitoba farmers will be affected, and what can be done to alleviate any possible harm? MR. USKlW: Well, Mr. Speaker, there has been no representation to my office from anyone for such consultation to take place, so really I think it would be inappropriate for me to even consider it at this point. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Deputy Premier.

How many City of Winnipeg contracts, if any, are being held by the govern ment awaiting approval and signature of the appropriate Minister so they can be awarded by the City? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: I do not have any idea, Mr. Speaker. MR. MOUG: Supplementary. Would the Minister responsible to the City of Winnipeg in this department have any? MR. CHE RNIACK: Mr. Speaker, if the Honourable Member for Charleswood has any knowledge of these, then it would be very helpful if he could inform us of the specifics, so we could trace them through and get the truth.

The same applies of course, if the City of Winnipeg is aware of it. So that all I can do other than that, if I don't get any help from the Member for Charleswood, is to ask the Minister responsible in due course whether there are any such alleged documents on his desk. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Minister of Labour.

Has the Minister of Labour met with the Injured Workers Association to consider changes in the Workmen's Compensation Act and to consider their brief respecting annual adjustment of compensation to reflect cost of living? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, in this connection I'm somewhat confused. Yesterday evening, I noted a reference to the Injured Workers Association in a brief - I believe it was over Channel 6 last night - where it was indicated a meeting would be held with me and a brief had been submitted.

I did receive two persons back in January into my office, and at that particular time I was given a document indicating a desire for certain changes. I believe on the outside of the document there was reference to the Injured Workers Association. I'm not sure, Mr. Speaker, whether or not the question that the Honourable Member for Assiniboia directs to me has reference to that particular brief, or a new one, because it was indicated to me - at least as I assessed the program yesterday evening - something new would have happened. However, my office did receive a call this morning, Mr.

Chairman, by one individual who expressed a desire a meet with me in connection with the points raised by the Injured Workers Association, and I suggested to my office staff that if the gentleman calls again that I would be prepared to meet with him in due course when some of my other respon sibilities have eased somewhat. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Has the Minister studied the charges made by the Executive Director of Social Welfare and Planning Council about conflict of interest existing in the Manitoba Compensation Board respecting compensation - hearing cases and appeals? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: No, I also saw the image of - I believe the individual's name is Lloyd Blenton. I've never met with this honourable gentleman, and as far as I am aware he

1900 March 27, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. P AULLEY cont'd) . . . . has never made representations to me for a meeting where he could indicate to me as Minister of Labour what apparently he did to the public by the news media yesterday evening. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Supplementary to the Minister, Mr. Speaker. The amendments requested to the Workmen's Compensation Board by the Injured Workers Association, are they the same that are requested by the Manitoba Federation of Labour as well? I believe the Minister has both briefs now. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: May I indicate to my honourable friend that the Throne Speech contained a passage that amendments to the Workmen's Compensation Act will be presented for the Assembly for its consideration in due course, and I'm sure that my honourable friend is waiting in anticipation, as are others, to see what will be contained in the bill that I will be introducing. It's in the process now in respect of Workmen's Compensation amendments. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (R oblin): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the honourable, the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. I wonder if the Honourable Minister, Mr. Speaker, could advise the House of the percentage of the profits from WesCan Lotteries that will be turned over to the Montreal Olympic Co=ittee for the 1976 games? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs): Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry- maybe I didn't hear the question right.

But there's no revenue from the WesCan Lotteries that will be turned over to the Olympics, not whatsoever - on the contrary. If it is decided jointly by the participating provinces that the agencies involved in the different provinces will eventually sell for the Olympics, that there will be a co=ission payable by the Olympics to those involved in the selling of tickets, but not vice versa. MR. McKENZIE: Well, I have a supplementary question then, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder can the Honourable Minister advise the House, will the Montreal Olympic Co=ittee be authorized at any time to sell their tickets in this province, or in the western provinces? MR. TOUPIN: Well, again, Mr. Speaker, only by mutual consent. Any other provinces in Canada will not be allowed to set up agencies in this province or any other province partic ipating in WesCan till there is an agreement reached. So at this moment, they're not allowed to set up an agency in this province no more so than we're allowed to set up an agency in the Province of Quebec. MR.

McKENZIE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is the Yukon being considered as a full partner in the WesCan agreement? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, at the last meeting in Regina, the Yukon had made appli cation to the unofficial co=ittee of four Ministers from the four western provinces, and it was decided then that the respective Ministers would recommend to their governments that the Yukon be accepted; not as an equal partner, but accepted to be a- say, that they form a selling agency in the Yukon and receive the same benefits apart from voting rights on the co=ission. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. McGREGOR: Mr. Speaker, I address this question to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. What assistance is the Department of Tourism and Recreation giving to the standard bred and thoroughbred industry in the Province of Manitoba this year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. TOUPIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, within the existing budget of this fiscal year, there is an amount of $50, 000 that is allocated within the estimates to be made payable to horse breeders in the Province of Manitoba.

As the honourable member is quite aware, the fiscal year ends in a few days, and it has been decided by Cabinet that this amount be held in trust till the Minister - that is myself - is in a position to recommend to Cabinet that the purse structure itself will meet the benefit of more horse breeders in the Province of Manitoba than less. At this time I am not satisfied of the reco=endations being made, so I am not in a position to recommend to Cabinet the allocation of this $50, 000, and this is why I have recommended to Cabinet that it be held in trust. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden.

March 27, 1974 190l ORAL QUESTIONS MR. McGREGOR: A supplementary. When would the Minister - might he indicate when the horse breeding industry would know as to when, how it's going to be allocated. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. TOUPlN: Well, again, Mr. Speaker, this will be a joint effort. I ve asked the Horse Racing Commission as one official body to make the recommendations. I'm informed that I should be getting that recommendation probably late next week.

I've asked individuals involved in racitig in the Province of Manitoba to make their comments known to me, and after having received those I contend to be in a position to make certain recommendations to my colleagues. -- (Interjection)-- I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker- hopefully within a month. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. HARVEY PATTERSON (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Northern Affairs. Could he advise as to the present conditions of the winter roads in northern Manitoba? HON. RON McBRYDE (M inister of Northern Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I have been bringing winter road reports with me for the last number of weeks, hoping for a question. Now, I hope I have it here . The winter roads, Mr. Speaker, with the excep tion of the Norway House winter road, are still open and in full operation. The majority of the roads are in good condition. The roads to the small communities of Red Sucker Lake and Li ttle Grand Rapids will not have truck roads this year, but tractor train hauls will be going into the community of Red Sucker Lake . MR. PATTERSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Could the minister advise as to the tonnage hauled over the roads into the northern communities? MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, the main winter road haul, that is, to the Island Lake area, the estimated amount to go to that community was 6, 618 tons; and the amount hauled in, estimated in at this date, is 6, 618 tons. That is, all the amount that was anticipated to go to those communities has been delivered. There are some people who are now deciding to make further deliveries beyond that, so trucks are still hauling on that road, but all the goods that were anticipated to go have now been hauled in.

The same is true for the Berens River road, where 313 tons have been hauled in; for the Bloodvein road, where 566 tons have been hauled in; the Cross Lake road, where 2, 411 tons have been hauled in; the Norway House road, where 7, 996-1/2 tons have been hauled in ; the York Landing and Split Lake roads have 636 tons hauled in, with 70 tons still in the process as of to date, still being hauled in to those communities.

The Community of Oxford House, the full anticipated amount of 2, 295 tons has been hauled in; to God's Narrows, the full anticipated amount of 2, 858- 1/2 tons has been hauled in; to South Indian Lake, the full anticipated amount, I believe that figure is 26, 276 tons has been hauled in; in Moose Lake, the full anticipated amount of 12, 153 tons has been hauled in. The haul in these communities on winter roads, Mr. Chairman, is essentially complete at this time, with some of the haulers having delayed because of rumours of roads not being in, having delayed their hauls.

There are still a few late hauls going in, the odd load, but essentially the amount anticipated has been hauled in as of today. MR. P ATTERSON: Another supplementary, Mr. Speaker, In view of that impressive record, could the Minister advise as to what effect it will have on lowering the prices. in northern Manitoba? MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr. Speaker, since the cost of hauling goods, the goods into the retail stores in these communities have been considerably reduced. Those retail stores will certainly have considerable explaining to do if in fact the cost to their customers is not considerably reduced. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, while we're on roads I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Highways and provincial roads. Since tile weather - if I may use a slight

preamble - since the weather will rediscover the provincial roads, is it the intention of the Minister to re-establish and to maintain the provincial roads as they were maintained and held up by the Conservative Government as of four years ago? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways)(Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I believe this question was asked by the honourable member some time ago .. A MEMBER: Four years ago.

1902 March 27, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. BURTNIACK: .• • and I would say to him that we have done a pretty good job and I don't think that we would like to go back and reduce our service that was done under the previous administration. MR. WATT: A supple mentary then, Mr. Speaker. I again ask the Minister if he has agreed with the rural municipal people . . MR . SPEAKER: Question please. MR. WATT: I asked him the question.

Does he agree with the rural municipalities who disagree with the fact that the maintenance of the municipal roads or the government roads have been kept up the way they were in the good old days of the Conservative time? MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Speaker, just to answer that, I've never received any disagree ment from anyone. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): I should like to direct my question to the Minister who answers to the House for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, and ask him if he is going to give some consideration to a Mr.

Bartlett whose truck was ruined on the winter roads during the last winter, so that this man will be able to continue his operation. He is unable to earn his living as a result of the actions of the MPIC. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. BILLIE URUSKI (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corpor ation)(St. George): Mr. Speaker, my information is that the unit that was used on the winter roads was a 1959 Mac truck, and the damages that resulted from going ... A MEMBER: Fifty miles an hour. MR.

URUSKI: No, considerably- you know, at a considerable speed on thewinter roads, which are designed as I am informed for somewhat under 20 miles an hour - were designed because they are winter roads- that the damage incurred was in fact a frame fracture, which is what is commonly known as a mechanical fracture and would not have been considered as a claim under the insurance coverage. MR. JORGENSON: I wonder if the Minister could tell whether that clause was written into his contract when he took out an insurance policy in good faith? MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the coverages are standard insofar as mechanical fractures to vehicles or engines or the like, that we would not be covering breakdowns in motors or frames that would be as a result of wear and tear on the vehicle. POINT OF ORDER MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, firstirise on a point of order, and thenl have a brief question.

But my point of order is, that whenever a member makes an inaccurate statement then it behooves him to correct that statement at the earliest possible opportunity, and yesterday in the questions period I did make an untruthful statement. I said that the Chairman of the Economic Committee was the most unbiased chairman I've ever seen- and I wish to apologize, I wish to apologize to the member, because I know it will do him irrepar able harm in his Party standing. I meant to say he was the most biased chairman. ORAL QUESTIONS (Cont'

d) MR. JOHNSTON: My question is to the Minister of Agriculture, and relates to his loaded ballot vote on the feed grain ballot. My question is - I understand that the 29th is the deadline of this month- my question is: even if the ballot doesn't come out in favour of the Minister does he intend to publish the results? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Marketing Board who are conducting the referendum, will operate as theyalwaysdo and always have done. There will be no change in procedure. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. Order.

The Honourable Member for Portage. MR. G, JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, because the ballot is being conducted from the Minister's office and by taxpayers' funds, will he not make the information public? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I don't ever recall an incidence where the Manitoba Marketing Board held a referendum in which case the results were never made public, and I don't expect that to be the case this time.

March 27, 1974 1903 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture, and would like to ask him, could he indicate how many applications on the vote in question on the marketing of feed grains has been received to date? How many applications that were sent out have been returned as of today? MR. USKIW: I would think that the honourable member means ballots. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I meant ballots. MR.

USKIW: I am not sure, but I would guess that it is somewhere in the area of twelve or thirteen thousand. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. First of all I wish to thank the Honourable Member for Po rtage la Prairie- was it yesterday- when he mentioned that I was unbiased. I didn't know whether he was . . . MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. SHAFRANSKY: ... condemning or complimenting me. However he made it quite clear, and I categorically deny the fact that I am biased, but I - I rose on a point of order. NOTICE OF MEETING MR.

SHAFRANSKY: In the notice of meetings, I noticed that the meeting which was announced at the last Public Utilities Committee meeting on March 21st is not indicated in the Votes and Proceedings. The Standing Committee on Public Utilities will meet on Tuesday, April 2nd at 10:00 a. m. in Room 254 to consider the Annual Report of Manitoba Hydro. This was indicated at the last Committee meeting and I notice that it did not appear in the Votes and Proceedings. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L, R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Honour able the Minister of Tour ism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. Can the Minister advise the House whether among the letters of intent on the WesCan Lottery, which he says this govern ment has received from other western provinces, there has been an actual letter of intent received from the Province of Alberta? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, the intent of the three western provinces, that is Manitoba, Saskatchewan- Manitoba was tabled at the last meeting that we had at Regina- the intent of Alberta was equally tabled and to be followed by a letter of intent which I still haven't seen. But it was definitely stated at the meeting in Regina that Alberta will be participating in the inter-p rovincial WesCan Lottery Commission, as was the intent of the Yukon to participate equally. MR. SHERMAN: Can the Minister advise the House who made that statement on behalf of the Pro vince of Alberta? MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, I indicated I believe one or two days ago that the Minister of Alberta was unable to attend the meeting in Regina and I can't recall the name of the in dividual that was - there was two or three there but the spokesman for Alberta I believe was either the Deputy Minister or - it was a senior civil servant of the Department of Recreation in Alberta but I can't recall his name. I could find out and let the honourable member know. MR. SHERMAN: I'd appreciate if the Minister could find that out, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary.

At the time that that intent was signified did the Alberta spokeman or the Alberta delegation indicate that that position was in direct juxtaposition, direct contradiction to an official position taken by the Government of Alberta on June 12th, 1973. MR. TOUPIN: Well again, Mr. Speaker, it's very difficult to relate the previous dis cussions of the Minister responsible in Alberta and the Premier because there has been seemingly contradictory statements made, but the member speaking for the Government of Alberta at the R egina meeting did so after confirming with his Minister. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley, Leader of the Liberal Party. MR, ASPER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Co-operative Development. I wonder if he would give the House an assurance that he would check with his officers in the Department to determine whether or not any of them induced Winnipeg businessmen

1904 March 27, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. ASPER cont'd) .... to grant credit to the northern fishing co-ops, and when he finds that that is the case whether he will recommend . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The latter

part is hypothetical. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. My question really is this: will the Minister recom mend payment to those creditors who extended credit to the northern co-ops upon the induce ment of members of his department. MR. SPEAKER: That question, too, is hypothetical. The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, since you rule the question hypothetical I'm afraid I'm not in a position to respond, but I do wish to respond to questions put several days ago on the same subject, one in particular put to me by the Member for Assiniboia, and it has to do with the amount of moneys loaned to three co-operatives in particular, namely Kee Noe Zae, Ilford and Maniou Sakahikum. Let me advise my honourable friend that Kee Noe Zae Co-operative has a loan of $88, 900 under our loan guarantee fund. Ilford Co-operative has a loan of $10 0, 000 and Maniou Sakahikum has a loan of $1 5, 000.

The Member for Brandon West who is not here at the moment but hopefully his colleagues will advise him of the answer, put a series of questions. I think perhaps, Mr. Speaker, I should read the questions and then the responds to make sure that we have the answers in proper order.

The questions as follows: "I wonder if the Minister could indicate how much of the $1. 3 million paid out of the Consolidated Fund under the authority of The Fisheries Act and loaned by the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation to fishermen and fishing co-operatives is in arrears at this time?" And then we have a series of observations by way of an answer. No. 1 - There are no loans to fishing co-operatives considered to be in arrears. No. 2- Fishing co-operatives as well as private fishermen agree to repay loans on a percentage of catch basis yearly.

The agreement takes note of the fact that because of conditions there may be a discontinuance of fishing for periods of time. No payment is ex pected during these periods. The above would suggest that only if a fishing co-operative became totally dormant or dissolved or if they failed to honour the agreement on percentage of catch could the loan be considered in arrears. The Corporation has established a list of doubtful accounts which includes the following: only one fishermens' co-operative, namely Maniou Sakahikum Co operative.

The Corporation is in a position to salvage moneys by way of repossession of the physical assets still in possession of the borrower. There are some total seven fishermen loans that are in the doubtful category at the moment, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Lea der of the Opposition. MR. SPIV AK: Yes, I wonder.,.. to the Minister of Co-operative Affairs- whether he can confirm that the amount is a million three or really at this point higher than a million three? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure of that particular aspect of it.

I have not researched the total amounts of money that were advanced by way of loan, but I can get the information for my honourable friend. MR. SPIV AK: I wonder if he's been informed by the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board that the likelihood is that a million dollars of that million three will have to be written off? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think the Leader of the Opposition has to appreciate the fact that it is very difficult to project the fishing seasons on the northern lakes at any given point in time, and it would not at all surprise me, Mr.

Speaker, if we did have problems of the nature that he describes. That is not something that we are not unaware of even when the laons are made in the first place. That is the nature of northern Manitoba. To the extent that we have a successful fishery we will realize most of our objectives and most of the loans will be repaid. To the extent that we have failures for one reason or another we will have our problems and we know that when we take these risks by way of loan guarantees.

It's a very conscious decision on the part of the Department to put forward capital to allow these kind of developments to take place knowing that we may have a high risk situation. MR. SPIV AK: I wonder if the Minister could confirm that based on the calculations made by his Department that it will be impossible for the Southern Indian Lake Co-op to pay off the obligation of$ 637, 000 that he indicated, and that in effect the government will have to write that off as well?

March 27, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, again, the Leader of the Opposition, while his statement may be accurate, and I suspect that it indeed will be a difficult task for that particular co -operative to repay that kind of capital debt, my own impression is that that 1905 would be a correct assessment.

Let me assure him however though , that that is or was never intended -- the co-operative had never intended to undertake that kind of capital indebtedness in that there was an expectation of much greater Fedefal grants towards the co -operative which did not materialize fully. So, therefore, there is some problem in that respect. It was expected that there would be almost a 100 percent grant of the facility to the fishermen of South Indian Lake. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, with all the best of intentions I want to assure my honourable friend that because of the added job opportunities in northern Manitoba through the works of Manitoba Hydro and other government agencies, many of the fishermen are looking to these areas for employment which do provide better incomes than does the fishing industry. And therefore to the extent that we don't have the same number of fishermen fishing on those lakes and the same poundage, or a reasonable amount of poundage or tonnage going through the· plant there will be difficulty in maintaining a viable operation. But again, Mr.

Speaker, even if that is so, I want my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition to appreciate that we are indeed happy that there are job alternatives which provide a higher rate of salary which the fishermen can adjust to. And if that is what happens and we suffer because of it, we have to accept that as part of the progress of northern Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that we 're talking approximately 600 to 800 thousand dollars for the South Indian Lake co-op, I wonder if the Minister could not confirm that it would have been better for the government to have given each fisherman $12' 000 . 00 ? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The question is argumentative. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . ASPER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Acting First Minister.

My question is, does the Government of Manitoba intend to make representations as trustee for all the people of Manitoba to the Government of Saskatchewan with a view to inducing the Government of Saskatchewan to permit or to refrain from enacting legislation which would make it unlawful for Manitobans to own farmland in Saskatchewan? MR.. SPEAKER: T hat question, too, is argumentative. The honourable member wish to rephrase it? MR. AS PER: Mr. Speaker, on a Point of Order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The question had an opinion as a base. That becomes argumentative. The honourable member wish to rephrase it?

MR . ASP ER: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you might instruct me, on a Point of Order, as to what opinion the question contained? The question was a matter of fact. Law has been introduced which will make it unlawful for Manitobans to own land in Saskatchewan. My question simply is, does the government intend to make representations to request the Govern ment of Saskatchewan to remove that legislation as it affects Manitobans? Now, that's not argumentative. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the Acting First Minister.

Is it the policy of his government to continue to hire NDP political organizers to work as responsible directors and co -ordinators within the Government of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, it has been often stated that it is a policy of our govern ment to hire those people who can best serve the roles which are assigned to them. May I say, Mr.

Speaker, that in relation to the situation that has been proposed for Saskatchewan's land policy, I would think that this government will be very careful to read the sayings and the intent and the expressions of members opposite as well as members present to try to determine the position it ought to take. This may include any suggestions of exclusiveness for people of certain geographic areas or racial or national citizenship. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party.

1906 March 27, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, will the Acting First Minister confirm that one, Allan Early, a New Democratic Party paid organizer has been engaged as a senior director in the Department of Industry and Commerce, as a Director of Promotions? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, it would not be for me to decide low long a person has a role once he played it. For example, the member who is asking questions has acted as Counsel to the Manitoba Government.

That doesn't mean that forever he can be considered by anyone to be legal representative on behalf of the Province of Manitoba. The question asked about Allan Early is a matter of record, but if the member really wants to know the position he occupies I suppose we can find it out. As to his background and past, I don't know whether the member seriously wants to know the background and past of every person who becomes a civil servant. If he does, I would not play that game with him. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the person I have referred to in my question has been engaged primarily as a political organizer, will the Acting First Minister please indicate to the House what credentials, other than his political prowess, this man has to occupy a senior executive position in the Department of Industry and Commerce? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member has not been in this House as long as this government has been, so he will not recall that --but I recall well, that early in the time of this government we have not agreed to answer questions relating to individual appointees because we felt that their privacy is something that we would want to respect, 'even though members such as the Leader of the Liberal Party is prepared to attack. Nevertheless, Mr.

Speaker, it is obvious to me that the appointment made by this government, and any preceding government , would take into account the qualifications which that government felt were advisable and worthwhile in order to attract people to come to work for them. Therefore, I would say that regardless of the job to which this person was appointed -- and I don't know what it is -- he must have been considered to be properly qualified to handle the job assigned to him. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. MARION: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Honourable, the Minister of Education. Will the Minister advise if a revision of the teacher/pupil ration which is the basis for which school boards receive their department grants, is imminent for the coming school year at both the elementary and secondary levels? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education, Minister of Colleges and Universities Affairs): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. MA RI ON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Is the basis for arriving at the grants being studied now ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it's under continuous study. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, just before the Orders of the Day I'd like to answer some questions that were asked by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia relative to land acquisition in the Delta Marsh. The estimated amount that is allowed for land acquisition is $2 million dollars over a period of five years.

The Crown now owns about 40, 000 acres and we acquired about 160 acres during the past twelve months. The plan calls for the acquisition of about 40, 000 acres addiJ!iional land. The cost sharing is on a 50-50 basis with Ottawa. The land acq uisition estim·� is based on an average purchase price of $5 0. 00 an acre and of course this is to be negotiated with each owner, and I don't think you can take that figure as being of great meaning. And we intend to aggressively step up the acquisition program during the next two years. Now, Mr. Speaker, I presume that we are going into the Budget Speech Debate. MR.

SPEAKER: Yes. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SH ERMAN: A supplementary question to the Minister of Environmental Management, supplementary to the information he just gave us, Mr. Speaker. Does the acquisition program

March 27, 1974 1907 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR . SHERMAN cont'd) .••. include beach property or marsh property or waterfowl nesting property or farm property, or precisely what; or all forms of property in the Delta area? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister . MR . GREEN: Yes, Mr . Speaker . MR . SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, for clarificati on, perhaps I'd better rephrase the question . MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the most satisfactory answer is yes, all the forms that the honourable member has mentioned . BUDGET DEBATE MR .

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance and the amendment thereto by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, and amendment thereto by the Leader of the Liberal Party. The Honourable Member for Birtle -Russell. MR . HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle -Russell): Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Last week , last Thursday to be exact, Mr . Speaker , we had a rather unusual day in this Legislative Assembly. First of all, we had the announcement of the Hydro rates for the Province of Manitoba which will increase the rates almost 20 percent to the people of Manitoba.

Secondly, we had the Minister of Mines announcing his program for the mining industry, And then thirdly, we had the Minister of Finance putting on his Budget speech in the eveni ng. It was, all in all, Mr . Speaker, quite a full day. And one has to sit back and wonder why they put all three together. Whether the one was the sugar -coated pill to make the other two a little more palatable or what was the intended purpose of the mass saturation, so to speak, of these programs all at the one time?

And one can only conclude, Sir, that in bringing this forward in this manner, it is intended to portray the Minister of Finance -- who I'm sorry is not in the House at the present time, but I'm sure he will be right back -- intended to portray him as sort of a benign Santa Claus , if you may, whether or not he believes in the Santa Claus concept, intended to portray him as the kindly gentle spirit that is going to give the sugar-coated candy and then all will be well . Mr. Speaker, I don't believe that such is the case. I can just picture the Minister in his very charming manner, smiling, kindly face .

He is the fatherly type, and as such he is administering goodies to all around . Now, Mr. Speaker , this isn't the first budget speech that he has presented, and since this party has come into power we have seen considerable amounts of legislation brought for ward . We've seen in particular an awful lot of legislation designed to help the consumer. We have established a Department of Consumer Affairs, and we have a Minister -- I think we have a Minister in charge of it, anyway. And the whole purpose of that department, Sir, to me anyway, would indicate that it is to protect the consumer.

And I always ask the question - protect them from whom ? Or is it to protect them from themselv es, while the Minister sits there and smiles . I think that he would say that his job really is to protect the consumer from the sharpy, the shill in business; to protect them from those sharp cookies in business that are trying to take the consumer's dollar from him in any way that he can and to do it in a manner that the consumer is not fully aware of what his rights are . But, Mr .

Speaker, sometimes I think that the ministry of Consumer Affairs should be looking at other avenues, too, and maybe they should be looking at protecting the consumer from the Minister of Finance as well, because at one time I see the Minister of Finance as the kindly Santa Claus type.

It also reminds me that those that believe in that Santa Claus story, this occurs at a time in the year which is very late in the calendar year, and usually the day or two after Christmas we 're into the year end, and anybody that watched the business field realizes that a day or two after Christmas you have your giant fire sales, your wall to wall clearance sales , and there's bargains galore for the buying public.

This is where the image of the Minister of Finance changes slightly; from being the kindly, benign Santa Claus type suddenly his ears get a little sharper, he gets a pencil -line m us tache , and he then becomes the sharpy or the shill who is having his giant fire sale . And in that giant fire sale he is advertisin g to all and sundry special bargains. But there is one fundamental difference . When the consumer in the ordinary market is one of the buying public and he sees this giant fire sale , special low prices, he expects to buy goods that are maybe slightly fire damaged or water damaged or something.

But here we find the Minister of Finance isn't selling fire -damaged goods . Really, what is he selling ? He's selling the fire . He's got a special bargain and he's selling a fire -

1908 March 27, 1974 BUDGET DEBATE (MR. GRAHAM cont'd) ••.. the fire of inflation. Because the budget that we see before us is an inflated budget. The spending that we have seen in this Legislature has been inflated, and in all the government spending and all the programs that are put forward, supposedly programs to help people, the one problem that government does nothing about is the problem of inflation. And that is the number one concern of every consumer in the Province of Manitoba, the Province of Saskatchewan, Alberta, B. C. and all the other provinces in Canada. Inflation is our number one problem.

The consumer certainly does not benefit from inflation. Well, if the consumer doesn't benefit, does any benefit? And I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that the only institution that benefits from inflation is government. Because the dollars that they take in today or the dollars that they spend today and borrow today, they pay back with 40 cent dollars, 50 cent dollars, and really it is only government that benefits from inflation. As the spiral turns, as the wheel turns and increases in speed and the spiral tightens, the consumer gets hurt and government benefits.

We have seen the Minister indicate in his budget , revenue far exceeding that which he anticipated , and that, Sir, to me indicates again that government is the only one that benefits from inflation . Since this government has taken office1and using the Minister's own figures, the gross provincial product has increased by 50 percent. Government spending has increased five times faster than that . We are now facing a total government spending program for this coming year of one and a half billion dollars, Mr.

Speaker , made up of 789 million in main estimates , 699 million in capital supply, and 35 -3/4 million in supplementary estimates . Totalling one billion, 533 million. Government spending since this government has taken office has more than doubled, in fact it has almost tripled, while the output of this province has increased 50 percent. I said the other night, last night1 that while the population of this province has increased only slightly, that the rate of increase in the Civil Service, the bureaucracy, has increased at a rate five times greater. Mr .

Speaker, as government bureaucracy increases and as government spending increases and the total productivity of the province increases at a lesser amount, that means that there is less and less of the total productivity of the province left for the indiiVidual to spend in the manner in which he chooses . If the rate of increase of government expenditure continues at its present rate and if the provincial income increases at its present rate, we won·•t see the end of this century before the total productivity of the province will be spent by the government and there'll be nothing left for the individu al .

Of course, Mr . Speaker, we realize that that won't happen, because if these programs continue in the direc tion they're going and they are allowed to continue un checked , before the government is allowed to spend every cent of the individual's money we would end up in revolution . There is a point �- as the Minister of Agriculture says, am I advocating revolution ? In no way.

What I am trying to indicate to the government is that unless they curtail their government spending, unless they cut back on some of these programs and leave the individual with a reasonable amount of the money that he himself has earned, that unless that happens there will be disillusionment with the people to the extent that, dependent on the heeds of government, if government totally ignores it , then I would say that revolution would be inevitable . Because, Mr . Speaker, there is no society or no particular country in the world today where they do not recognize some right of the individu al .

Even in those countries which are under the most rigid government control the individual still has some rights. Mr . Speaker, I raise these is sues at this time because I can see the direction that we are heading, I can see the speed with which we are heading in those directions, and it alarms me, as I'm sure it will alarm many Manitobans if it is allowed to continue unchecked . And so, Mr. Speaker, I want to issue or suggest to the House at this present time that we should take a look at the direction we're going and be very careful at the speed with which we are going, because the danger signals are out .

March 27, 1974 1909 . BUDGET DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the first thing I would like to put clear on the record of the Ho use, especially because of the statement the Member from Crescentwood made in his speech, and that is that I did not vote for the Budget last year. None of this side voted for the Budget last year. We voted non confidence twice, and the fact that we did not vote for the Budget, the fact that we did not vote for the Budget, Mr.

Speaker, was used in the political slipperiness by the government during election, and for the Minister to say that we did, I will quote what we voted for: "We voted on the Budget, Mr. Speaker, " and so, Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, proudly, seconded by the Minister of Labour, that Mr.

Speaker, do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee to consider the Ways and Means of raising the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. 11 That' s what we voted on last year, that's what we will vote on this year, except that the Minister seems to think it' s quite a technicality as to whether the motion is put before or after his speech. I don't really know why he wants to do that but I suspect that he wants to come out of this House again and say we all voted for the Budget.

But I just want to make the record clear that I will vote for the non-confidence motion of the Leader of the · Liberal Party, I will vote for the non-confidence motion of my Leader, and I will vote that the Speak er do now leave the Chair. Mr. Speaker, there has been some discussion in the House and in the question period in the last three or four days about the report of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Co rporation.

We've been asking if we've got the report or when will we get the report, and of course if we had been on our toes just a little bit faster, I guess, we would have known, as the Minister doesn't seem to know, that the report has been presented to this House for the year ending March 1973. The financial report. Mr. Speaker, it' s contained in this big book that I get very suspicious of, which is presented to you all at once so that they won't maybe take the time to read it. But we do have people on this side of the House that research and do read.

And the questions we have been asking obviously should have been asked now that we have this report in front of us, which is fairly good reason for questioning the government on the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation Financial Report. Mr. Speaker, the auditor, the Provincial Auditor, comments on this report as he does all others, and I would like to read the comment of the Provincial Auditor on this report, in the second paragraph especially .

"Permanent housing under construct ion of $34, 673, 865. 75 as of March 31, 1973 include s an amount of $1, 517, 191. 91 advanced to theN orthern Manpower Corporation, Department ofN orthern Affairs, Province of Manitoba . Subsequent to March 31, 1973, furtheradvances of $1, 611, 144. 62 have been made to or on behalf of theN orthern Manpower Corporation, resulting in the total advances to date of $3, 128, 336. 53.

These amounts were advanced on account of contract for the construction of 39 family units at Churchill, Manitoba, at a cost of $885, 490 subject to provisions for the modifi cation adjustments, and on account of arrangements to construct a further 80 family units estimated by the Co rporation to cost $2, 800, 000"-- they don't mention Churchill after that figure, Mr. Speaker. The auditor doesn't mention Churchill after that figure--" •.• which are not covered by formal contract as at the date of this report.

TheN orthern Manpower Corporation has also been constructing housing and facilities for Northwest Territories and has financed these operations from the aforementioned advances. Because of the lack of effective expenditure alloca tions •.. "-- that' s worth repeating- "Because of the lack of effective expenditure alloca tions, the position vis-a-vis the various govern,.. ments interest cannot be determined at this time." Mr. Speaker, there's two or three things here.

They don't mention Churchill, as !s aid, and right after that they said, "by the corporation at a cost of $2, 800, 000, which are not covered by formal contract as at the date of this report. " Mr. Speaker, first of all this Legislature meets to go over the Ca pital Estimates and we vote moneys to be spent on certain provisions. In fact this la st year we voted $25 million to the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corpora tion and this year they're asking for $20 mill ion.

And you know, what authority do we, or what au thority does the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Cor poration, under what authorit y, you might say, do they advance to the Northern Manpower Cor poration under No rthern Affairs to construct houses to be built in the Northwest Territories or for that matter of fact, anywhere else in the world ? Mr. Speaker, the au thority that we vote in this House - and I' ve look ed at the Act, the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Ac t; there's some vague references as to getting into

1910 March 27, 1974 BUDGET DEBATE (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'd) .•. agreements with Feder al Government but it does not really say anywhere that the money we vote for building units in Mani toba are to be used for building units elsewhe re.

And it would seem that the Housing Corporation, in fact the auditor says that the Housing Corporation has advanced these funds to Northern Manpower, and it would also seem because they mention the first units specifically for Churchill, there all of a sudden is the mention of $2 , 800, 000 and they don't mention Churchill, so it would seem that the Northern Manpower Corporation might have been using money that should have been spent in the Province of Manitoba to build houses in the Northwest Territories. And on what authority? The Minister of Finance really has to answer that question.

Be was voted money to give to the Manitoba Housing Corporation which all of a sudden ends up building houses which are to be shi pped into northern Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, by what procedure do we advance it, as I'v e asked? Mr. Speaker, where - where does the Northern Manpower under Northern Affairs get the authority? Do they get the authority from the Manitoba Housing or do they get the authority from the Minis ter? They certainly didn't have the authority from this Legislat ure and it would be very interesting to know why this has happened. Mr. Speaker, there's another little thing, Mr. Speaker.

You know, when you add, when you get to the figures of $3, 128, 000 and you find that they have a commitment, without a con tract mind you, a commitment without a contract for $3, 68 5, 000, where is the $5 50, 000 coming from, Mr. Speake r? When is that $5 50,000 going to be paid and under what procedure is the Manitoba--the Manpower Corporation or the Housing Corporation, how are they going to pay it? Are they going to pay it out of this $2 0 million the Minis ter is asking us for this year?

If so, I would like the Minister when he closes debate on this Budget to tell us that there's $55 0, 000 of this 20 million was to be spent or transferred to Northern Manpower to build houses in Northwest Territories. I would also like him to explain the $2 , 800, 000 which has been used by Northern Man power funds from the Manitoba Housing Corporation to build units in the Northwest Territories.

There are hotels being built and being shipped to the Northwest Territories ; there's housing units ; and here we are in the Province of Manitoba continually talking about the shortages that we have in housing, and we now have over $3 million being spent to build houses for the North west Territories without a contract, Mr. Speaker. And these gentlemen say they can handle money. The honourable members on the other side say they can handle money. The honourable members on the other sid e, Mr.

Speaker, get very very surprised about it when we ask them to please, please check what happens to the money that we give to these corporations and the Northern Manpower. Please have an auditor-general go in and see what's happening. Now, Mr. Speaker , the questions that we' ve been asking in the past few days, because - and the Auditor says this - "because of lack of effectivE) expenditure allocation - isn' t that a dandy? - the positions vis-a- vis the various government interests cannot be determined at this time. " I'd like to make it very clear, Mr.

Speaker, that Pm well aware of the fact that the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation let contracts to people to build houses. That's no problem. So they let a contract to Northern Manpower because they have a plant up in Churchill to build houses. And if there is some arrangement between federal and provincial governments on the construction of the houses because of the moneys going into Churchill, that's fine. We know that. But what do we have?

We have at least, according to this, we have at least $2 , 800, 000 or part of it, I should say--or part of that $2 , 800, 000 because it doesn' t say Churchill--used by the Northern Manpower Corporation to build houses for another area. You know, are we going to now start doing this for the Northern Manpower Corporation? Maybe when we' ve let contracts or loaned money, Mr.

Speake r, when the Manitoba Housing and Development Corporation let a contract to a contractor to build units in this province, we should make it clear to him that he can build them in Saskatchewan or Ontario as well, the same as the Northern Manpower Corporation is doing. Mr. Speaker, on what authority? The Auditor would like to have it explained; possibly this House could have it explained, Mr. Speaker, because, you know, it's just a complete jug gling of money.

Little pockets here, little pockets here, bigge r pockets ove r there, sticky fingers there, every place you look this government has placed little bits of money here and there where people spend without what I would say authority. Mr. Speake r, the authority of government spending is almost and in many cases a very very specialized legal profession,

March 27, 1974 1911 BUDGET DEBATE ( MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'd) .•. the authority of government on money. And it would seem that this government has absolutely forgotten the authority of spending money. They don't really care after they give the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation $25 million how they spend it. So, Mr. Speaker, it would be very nice to have the answers, it would be very very nice to have the answers, Mr. Speaker, on a factual figures point of view. We will get them; without any doubt, Mr.

Speaker, we'l l have a member from the other side stand up and say, "Well, I've talked to somebody in the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and he says everything's all right. " Everything's all right. So therefore that we would accept that and accept that everything's all right. Quite frankly, Mr.

Speaker, that particular paragraph--(In terjection)--Well, it would seem they've got to find $500, 000 somewhere and actually I would say any money that was used by the Manpower Corporati on to build houses in No rthwest Territories, the income they receive from it has to be paid back to the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, and it would seem that it shouldn 't have gone there in the first place because there isn't any authority, and it would als o seem, Mr.

Speaker, that they' re more interested in having contractors build houses in other areas than they are for building shelter for the people of Manitoba. And, Mr. Speaker, it also is another insult to this House, insult to this House that we are not told when these Estimates come forward, these requests for these large sums of money, that we' re just going to give it to a group of people and let them spend it any way they like . You know the - what is it? The chicken is coming home to roost or something? And it's now there.

You' re now going to have to answer for your four years of incompetence to this House and it's time that this government did. Mr. Speaker, what will happen, the Att orney-General will be asked to investigate, and the Attorney-General will be asked to investigate the M. A. and R. C. which he himself controlle d. He'll be asked to investigate those departments and he was in control of those departments when this was happening.

I would su ggest that the Provincial Au ditor be made truly, truly an Audit or-General to walk in there at any time and look at those books and report to this House, but they haven't got the internal fortitude to do it. Mr. Speaker, so much for the housing and the incompetence of the Auditor-General. You know, Mr. Speaker, I might just say I'd also like them to tell me where in this financial report do we find the figures that the Provincial Auditor referred to in his report.

It would be very interesting. lt' s qui'te obviously buried somewhere in here and it would be a nice gestur e on the part of the government to kind of tell us where they're burying these figures. Mr. Speaker, I was very taken with the speech of my colle ague the Member for Lakeside last night when he made it fairly clear that this side speaks for Conserva tives and that we're very very su re that we have a way--our philosophy is a way of life that will be better for everybody concerned, and I hope the Minister doesn't leave.

The truth comes out when the Minister of Nor thern Affairs--the Minister, by the way, who learned northern affairs by his own admission sitting in an outhouse on a cold winter day with the wind blowing, and that for sur e is the way he learned it, by his own admission that's about all he learned. And Mr. Speaker, he gets up and he refers to the business as "fat cats. " You know, I would remind the Minister that there's a word that would miss ten "c annots" I happen to use in my literatu re, and happen to say you cannot further brotherhood of men by inciting class hatred.

And you fellows get up and call businessmen, hard-working businessmen who are capable of making a living, fat cats? You know, really you know. --(In terjection)-- Oh yes. And those fat cats that are healthy have worked hard for it; they've worked hard for it. Nobody's ever questioned the miners' increase in this House on this side. And, Mr. Speaker, the only--you know, Mr. Speaker, there's something about the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. You know, last year I was accused in the paper, it was written up in the paper that he and I had a bit of a sc ramble in the hall.

The paper read that I had punched him square in the nose, and the fact that I have been accused and convicted, you know, I really have the right to give him one and I should do it, but I made a st atement, I made a st atement after that happened that never again will a person of his calibre be allowe d to get under my skin. Mr. Speaker, the Minister also when he was speaking, he made some statements ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. F. JOHNSTON : Well, Mr. Speaker, he says which Minister I'm talking about now. I wouldn 't waste any more time on him.

1912 March 27, 1974 BUDGE T DEBATE (MR. F. JOHNSTON coni'

d) Mr. Speaker, the Minister of No rthern Affairs also got up and he said, "My colle agues behind me are very disappointed that the Minister of Mines and Nat ural Resources didn't go further by taking over the mining industry. You know, Mr. Speaker , these fellows aren't kidding anybody and it's gradually coming out. The Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, before I had to leave last night, spoke about equitable distribution of money, and that was what this government always talked about, equitable distribution of money. The ability to pay. Mind you, the ability to pay is anybody that will go out and work.

I've said that before, but you know the ability-to -pay principle. The equitable distribution of money. But you know, on Page 2 - and this is their book again, this is their book - they have finally decided to tell us what they are going to do or what their philosophy is. It says, "A government fully committed to working for real political, social .. and economic equality for the average wage earner. " That means that we all make the same amount of money, we all live in the same houses, the government takes over everything, and they' re going to use the semantics about people but they're just kidding themselves.

But anyway they have finally said "social and economic equal ity. " The words "equitable distribution" are not used any more and they've gone that step further. See, they' re in here for another couple or a few years or so, and they've gone that step further and they're going to move very fast to do it. They're going to move into the mining industry, they will have com plete control of the money in the north.

The Minister of Agriculture, although he kids people, he is after the mineral rights and he's after the farmland in this province, and you know, I didn't ever kid anybody when I was elected that you want control because that• s what you want. You see, their system is control. They can't operate any other way. And then they-- (Interjec tion)-- Yes, by the people. Well let's by the people, Mr. Speaker , the government. The govern ment, that• s right. The government is the people no matter what party is in power. Now, Mr. Speaker, what he says-- ( lnterjection)-- No, I don' t agree with that either.

We could have a Communist government and that• s not one for the people. -- ( lnterjection)- Yes, that's right. But the people have voted for a government and the people --you fellows, you know, you take the attitude that because you' re there, because you' re there you believe that you, by the fact that you were elected by the people, that it gives you--(lnterjection) -- That• s right, some of the people, but they are the major ity, Mr. Speaker, yes. They are the people .

That it gives you the God-g iven right to take over the insurance agents, get rid of them, and yet there was a majority of people told you what would happen. It would give you--(lnterjection) --No, it's not people given right that they have, they have a real divine attitude. They have the attitude that they can take over the insurance ; they have the attitude that they don' t have to go by what the people of Winnipeg wanted when they put through Unicity.

They had to go up there in the last election with the Premier and say, "O h, well, we're not going to move that fast on the Kierans Report ; it's just a report, you know. " All through the elections we had it and all of a su dden this divine right comes ahead again. Their election campaigns are nothing but shams of saying, "I'm going to do something for you, " and when you get them there they take over and push people around. Now, Mr. Speaker, -- (In terjection)-- No. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister was talking about the elephants and the chickens las t night before I left, and he inferred that the Progressive Conservative Party were the chickens, that we' re being stomped on by Socialism, that big elephant. Well that's my attitude in confirmation of it. That big elephant. And we'd better accept it because it's a sweeping wave. That's how I interpret what he said, Mr. Speaker. And that's just about what it is, but I'll tell you, there never has been a time when some big giant tries to take over that the people didn' t catch up to him, smarten up and kick him out. Mr.

Speaker, never did the government, before 1969, tell people they couldn 't be an insurance agent if they didn't want to be. Never, never, never could they tell somebody that they couldn 't sel l fire insurance . Never before that time would they have colle cted so much money. The priorities at that time were schools, roads, the beginning of nursing homes, and that's what you got. Your priorities that were looke d at were done, and I've often said in this House I won't argue with priorities but, you know, I refuse to accept the fact that we were cavesmen before you fellows came along. Mr.

Speaker, the reasons that this government has given for doing all these things is "because the people tell us to. "

March 27, 19 74 19 13, BUDGET DEBATE (MR. F, JOHNSTON cont'

d) Mr. Speaker, the average member on the other side of the House is about as close to the people as that chair leg is over there. They have about as much knowledge and common sense of people' s thinking as that chair leg over there. And they display it, they display it continually when facts are put before them, and they sit over there and they laugh about it. They laugh about it. That's the real knowledge of the people. And the Member from Crescent wood yesterday - well no, the other day when he was speaking and he was talking about it - that's quite strange, Mr.

Speaker, he was talking about rules and procedures of the House. All of a sudden he changes the procedures of the House •.• but that's his business. He said the workers really don' t care about high finance. All they're concerned about is how much they're going to get back. Now isn' t that somet hing to say about the workers of Manitoba? ••• any longer, just saying the people of Manitoba don' t care, and this, you're listening to the people with an attitude that they don' t care about the finances, they don't care what the government does, they just care what we' re going to give them back.

And you're listening to the people. Mr. Speaker, I would have been very pleased if I' d seen the Minister of Finance come into the House and say, "I've got a lot of money. " He did come in and say he' d changed the meals from $2.0 0 to $3. 00 which I thank him for. It was my resolution last year which the House accepted. But I would have expected with all the money that he had come in, that he would have been a kind enough man to have looked over the sales tax situation and maybe said, "I can' t cut the whole thing completely.

" He would have to, I would have to say .I give him credit for taking a very close look at it - if he's looked at it. Anyway, he might have said, you know, why should a young boy that goes down to the store to buy a hockey stick to play hockey when he's sold papers for a week to buy that hockey stick, pay tax on it? I was buying a hockey stick in a store the other day, Mr. Speaker, and the paper boy who comes to my house walked in and paid $3. 00 for a hockey stick and 15 cents tax.

Wouldn't it have been nice if the Minister had said, you know, we have a situation in Canada, or in Manitoba too, where if we could have a healthy province and a healthy nation we' d have less people in hospitals? Wouldn' t it have been nice if he' d have said on sporting equipment where we can keep sound bodies, sound minds, young people playing, enjoying life, which we want them to do, wouldn't it have been nice? A MEMBER: He won' t even exempt safety equipment. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Wouldn' t it have been nice if he' d have said, "I'll take the sales tax off that little boy's hockey stick or pair of skates or little girl' s bicycle. --(Interjection)- Why didn' t we take it off? Because our Budget was 31 7 million and just because of inflationary circumstances which the government has helped cause, your Budget's 800 million. Mr. Speaker, he now has another give-away program, another rebate program. You know, this is another one of these Socialist shams I was telling you about.

The Minister of Mines and Natural Resources quite often gets up and talks about the number of people that were on the dole years ago in Britain, the fact that the big business wanted it that way and they could have these people waiting for their handouts. And we' ve proven, it's been proven many times, that if you keep feeding and giving to people you will gradually get control over them. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The honourable member has five minutes. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And he will get control over them and he says, "I am going to take your money and I' m going to give it back to you.

" And he adver tises right in this book here, we've got administration fees of $328, 000 for advertising, and before he gets the paper that he pulls out all the time, I would say to him that he can take that piece of paper and put it in the same outhouse with the Minister of Northern Affairs. He can use it. But Mr. Speaker, the thing that we really have to be concerned about now haven't we got every taxpayer in Manitoba on the dole? Aren't we--we' ve had last year, we had a rebate system. This year we get a little more rebate system, and all of a sudden, Mr.

Speaker, we' ll all be standing around every year saying, "Now how much of our own money is the government going to give us back this year? How much of our own money is he going to say you can have back to spend?" You know, another rebate system, or two or three more, of taking the people's money and waiting each year to see how much this government doles out for them to spend, and you say that you're not getting the whole of this province on welfare. You' ve

1914 March 27, 1974 BU DGET DEBATE (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'd) ••• got a lot of it depending completely on you now without any efforts--Oh a lot of efforts in black and white but now you have got every taxpayer in this province on the dole. Yoll got them there last year. You increased it this year and with your policies you're going to try and increase it again; and you do it by taking their money this year, getting the interest off it and giving it back to them next year. With great big administration costs, and you say--and Mr. Speaker, just to end, they said it. They said it. The Minister said it right on page 2.

He didn't say anything more about equitable distribution, "the government fully committed to working for real political, social and economic equality." Where you live in the same house, everybody lives in the same house, everybody makes the same amount of money. The government, and when it gets to that point it is the government that tells you where to work and not where to work, it's not the people, because they don't have any say. And they do it through their continually going to the people on the basis of "we'r e going to do more for you. " Well, Mr. Speaker, they're doing more for them.

They're putting them on welfare. Every taxpayer in Manitoba is now on the dole, Mr. Speake:r:, and that's not something the Minister of Finance can be proud of, because his own party be lieved when they had people on the dole, where people were on the dole they were controlled by the big businessmen and now you've got this government, by the big government, got every,. body on the dole in Manitoba, and they're proud of it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. HON. IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Osborne): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In the session so far I've contented myself with what I will refer to as my little speeches, little speeches made from my seat when Members of the Opposition are speaking. So far it appears that I have been more devastating to them than I had thought, my little speeches apparently have tempered the Member for Lakeside, and according to what the Member for Roblin said the other night I gather that he too has felt the impact of my little speeches.

However, I do want to say, Sir, that I want to come to grips with this Budget and how I think that it does in fact protect the consumers in Manitoba, and to deal too, with whether or not this budget can be considered by any stretch of the imagination to be inflationary or not inflationary. I should say that the Member for Sturgeon Creek when he speaks, seems to be concerned that this government with its programs over the last four years and I think with the programs that have been announced in the Budget this year, have apparently won the support of most of the people of Manitoba.

And I will say to him, although I apparently have driven him from the Chamber again, that if the Conservative Party can put forward a program, any program at all, they might have some success at the polls. So far, Sir, their criticism not only of this budget but of the previous budgets of the New Democratic Party in government, have been so futile, so empty of meaning, that the people of this province have not seen fit to elect them in the numbers that they obviously hoped they would be elected in.

I might say, Sir, that we have increased on this side our majority, and I would expect that this budget will in fact lead to a further increase in the support at the polls in four years, or whenever we next go to the polls. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition, the Member for River Heights, said in his comments during his contribution to the debate on the budget, that it was a budget that tended to fan the fires of inflation. That was the term that he used. -I, Sir, would never use such inflammatory language.

But I would like to point out to the honourable members that the budget, if they · care to read it, does contain in one of the tables a comparison of the provin cial gross product and the gross national product of the country. And I want to recite it for them because I'm convinced that they don't read the budget address of this government. The change in the national gross product, Sir, was some 14. 8 percent. The GNP in the country is up to 118 billion and our own provincial gross product is now about 5. 2 billion, an increase of 15 . 4.

When the impact of inflation is netted out, as was indicated in the budget speech, the actual increase in the gross national product was 7. 7 and the increase in the provincial gross product was 6. 9, - the difference, Sir, is not overwhelming but it is a difference indicating that the inflationary impact in this province has been less than it has been throughout the country as a whole.

And I think that is important to remember, because one of the reasons that the gross national product is higher than it is for the provincial gross product in Manitoba, is simply that we have provided in this province programs which

March 27, 1974 1915 BUDGE T DEBATE (MR. TURNBULL cont'd) ... have reduced the costs of certain services to the people of the province, and that is reflected in the provincial gross product. I should also point out, Sir, that as the Minister responsible for Consumer Affairs I was particularly interested in the cost of living tax credit that the budget provided.

I point out to honourable members opposite, although I hope they know this, that the statu tes for which I am responsible as the Minister of Consumer Affairs nowhere contain the aut hority to become involved in price regula tion or price control, that the legislation for which I am responsible is primarily concerned with lending, cost of money to the consumer, and Landlord and Tenant Act and such things as that.

However, I was particularly concerned with the cost of living tax credit because within the powers and authority that the provincial government has, any provincial government has, I feel that the redistribution of income through progressive taxation and through rebate, is the most su ccessful program that a province can implement to relieve the pressure of inflatio n on those who can least cope with it. Now it did concern me that the rebate, which amounts to some $14 million under this Budget, would perhaps cause some heating of the economy within the province.

So, Sir, I did make some inquiries to try to determine if that in fact was the case, inquiries of people that I considered to be fully qualified in economics, and I did find that indeed this was not a rebate that could in any way be considered to be inflationary, and I just want to relate to the members opposite the very simply arithmetical figure. The provincial gross product, as I said earlier, was some $5 .2 billion. The rebate scheme is $14 million. That, Sir, is . 002 percent of the gross provincial product. I don't consider su ch a small, such an infinitesimal amount to be inflationary.

It cannot be inflationary, Mr. Speaker. But if we could assume for a moment and take the Leader of the Conservative Party's figures and assu mptions, inaccurate assum ptions, and assume that the budget was inflationary, if we take that ass umption let us consider what he has proposed to relieve inflation within this province. I listened attentively, Sir, for the Conservative Party's program of how they would deal with inflation, because I know they want to fight the federal election campaign in this Hou se. I heard nothing.

I listened, I heard nothing; not a line, not a sentence, that indicated to me that they had any idea of what the so urce of inflation was. Indeed I calle d ac ross to the Member for River Heights in one of my litt le speeches, called across to him to indicate what the source of inflation was in the province and he did not answer. And he mu st have heard me because I know the Member for Roblin says that I can be heard for blocks away. So the Leader of the Conservative Party must have heard me but he would not answer and tell me what the source of inflation was.

Not being able to identify the source of inflation, I su ppose the Conservative Party cannot propose any remedy for it, except of course that old Conservative Philosophy of general across-the-boar d tax cuts. A general and immediate tax cut. Sir, I can think of no program, no sug gestion that would be more inflationary than a general tax cut in the province today. That is a simple economic fact. Now, I know that the honourable members opposite are not schooled in economics and I regret that. Because of that lack of knowledge we get the kinds of speeches we do, we get the kinds of proposals that we do, from them.

Their world view, Sir, is circumsc ribed by their own particular business interests, and that's fine. But certainly, su rely, we can' t expect that their experience in business, narrow as it is, can be projected across the total provincial scene, across the national economy, and find in their interest in business, in their knowledge of their particular business, remedies for inflation that are not only national in scope, but international in scope. So, Sir, I say that the Leader of the Opposition cannot have it both ways.

If the budget is considered by him to be inflationary, and if he thinks that we are fanning inflation and sees inflation as the major problem, then su rely he should not be pro posing a general across- the-board and immediate tax cuts. Nonetheless, Sir, that is what they have done. They made the same proposals as I recall, last year, and the year before. And I don't blame them, Sir. General across-the-board tax cuts would help their friends, there is no question about it.

If you are making $6, 000 a year you know, and you'v e got two kids, it's very tough, very tough to get by and it' s particularly tough in an inflationary situation that we happen to have inManitoba and in Canada today, inflation caused by international pressures . But I think that the Leader of the Opposition has really fallen into his most common failing, and that is his love of what is calle d the non sequitur, his love of making a statement which has no connection to previous statements, has no relationship and does not follow

1916 March 27, 97 4 BUDGET DEBATE (MR. TURN BULL contl.d) ... logically at all. And I put in that definition of a non sequitur for the members opposite. It reminds me, Sir, of his most favourite fairy tale, and that is the one that says that you can make poor people richer by giving rich people tax breaks. That's what the Conservative Party is trying to do. By giving rich people tax breaks, through this proposal of a general across-the-board tax cut, they think that somehow the poor man, the working man is going to benefit. And, Sir, I say that that is ju st nonsense.

It would not only be inflationary, it would be discriminatory, it would be discriminating against those on low income and those with families. Sir, I have heard both the Leader of the Liberal Party and the Leader of the Conservative Party attempt to come to grips with the budget and cite figures, statistics that they have called from Statistics Canada documents and what not. I was somewhat sta rtled, Sir, when I learned from the mouth of the Leader of the Liberal Party the other day as he recited - regurgitated I might say, the figures that he had culled or somebody had culled for him.

I can recall him saying that inflation in Manitoba was 15 percent and the inflation ac ross the country was only seven percent. And the Minister of Finance challenged him on those figures, challenged the Leader of the Liberal Party. And the Leader of the Liberal Party, Sir, he wasn' t going to listen to the Minister of Finance, so he denied that he made a mistake he denied that the Liberal Party could make a mistake. He said that he was going to take the Minister of Finance and get -- well, I haven't -- A MEMBER: I think that's,"l'll check. " MR.

TURN BULL: He said he would take the Minister of Finance, Sir, and show him the figures, 15 percent Manitoba inflation and seven percent the national inflation. And then, Sir, after some exchange between the Minister of Finance and the Leader of the Liberal Party, the Leader of the Liberal Party came back a couple of hours later, having checked with somebody, and said, "Well, Pm so rry, the Liberal Party was incorrect. We did transpose the figures. " I think "transposed" was correct. That's the term, I believe the Leader of the Liberal Party used.

And then he went on to say, he went on to say- not only did they transpose the figures, but they had the wrong figures. Because the 15 percent figure he was using was not the figure that he intended to use at all. What he wanted to use, was I believe, the seven percent figure which is the one that he could find in the Statistics Canada documents indicating the net increase in G and P as a result of netting out the cost of inflation. Well, that was one error, Mr. Speaker. I don't want to dwell on these errors too mu ch. That was a comedy, I thought, a comedy of errors.

I found it disturbing, Sir, because the Leader of the Liberal Party wanted to insist that he was right even though he was wrong. And he not only insisted that he was right, he kept repeating what he had said initially, that the inflation in Manitoba was higher than it was across the country. And he was wrong, wrong, and he would not admit it, Sir. Now really I don' t know, you know, what arrogance we have to tolerate on this side of the House. That, Sir, was a good example of Liberal arrogance. It reminds me, Mr.

Speaker, if you recall the Energy Conference projected on the TV--it reminds me of that Liberal Cabinet Minister, Mr. Marchand, who was shown clearly on TV, while the Premier of this Province was addressing the conference, to be reading Time Magazine. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I don't want to blame western alienation on the Liberal Party of Canada, but I really think that that kind of disdain for the west perhaps could be purged, if I may use that term, from the Liberal Party- and then, Sir, maybe Manitoba and Saskatchewan and the other western provinces will get what we hope will be our due in this nation, namely, the decentralization an increased decentralization of federal agencies and federal moneys.-- (Interjection)-- Mr. Marchand could have at least read McLeans rather than Time Magazine, that would have indicated that he was a Canadian at leas t.

The other couple of errors that I recall from the contribution made by the Leader of the Cons ervative Party related to his citation of the number of tax filers that we had in Manitoba last tax year as compared to the previous tax year It showed to me that the Leader of the Conservative Party or his research assistants who I know, some of them whom I went to university with, had made an error there.

The Leader of the Conservative Party clearly did not have information that correctl y indicated the difference between a tax filer and a tax payer, and consequently he was wrong there, he was incorrect in the figures that he gave during his contribution to this debate.

March 27, 1974 1917 . BUDGET DEBATE (MR. TURNBULL cont'

d) More serious than that, Sir, the Leader of the Conservative Party tried to mislead thi s House by stating, categorically, that the income of Indians on reserves had declined rather than gone up. And he stood up in his place Sir, the Leader of the Conse rvative Party with what apparently was a document containing thi s information that he was giving us, and in sisted that the income of Indians on reserves had gone down. And he was wrong. He was wrong.

The Minister of Northern Affairs corrected him the night following, I believe, indica ting that the Cons ervative Party had deliberately tried to use income on reserves as being the total income earned by Indians. And of course, Sir, the two are not comparable. It was a comparison of apples and oranges.

Now, Sir, I say they misled because, really I have more respect for the Leader of the Conservative Party than some of the members opposite seem to have for us, and I assumed that he was intelligent enough, certai nly his chief res earcher, Bill Neville, a Rhodes sch olar, is intelligent enough to know the difference between income earned on reserves and income earned by Indians on and off reserves.

So I can only assume - and I'm charitable to the Conser vative Party, and the Leader of the Cons ervative Party, I am charitable arid they need charity, Sir, I am charitable to say to them that they must have misled this House because they could not have been so uninformed of statistics and their use as to indicate to us that the income of Indians on reserves had gone down. Mr. Speaker, the question should be asked I suppose, and has been by, I think, both the Leader of the Liberal Party and the Leader of the Conservative Party, who benefits from inflation ?

They are trying to claim, Sir, that government then benefits from inflation. Well, Sir, I concede them the point. Government does benefit from inflation. I also say to them that the rebate program that this government has introduced happen to be of greater benefit to those who are least c apable of dealing with inflation than any other program that the province could introduce. Now, it' s clear to me that they, that is the Conservative and the Liberal Party, have not been talking to the people. The two leaders of the Op posit ion parties have got themselves tangled up in statistic s.

I have cited some of the errors that they made, glaring errors, stupid errors ; or, Sir, worse, I think, they've misled the House on those errors. Those two speeches, Sir, were a comedy of errors, and that' s all they were. A comedy of errors that certainly were either based on inadequate rese arch or detached completely from information that they could easily have picked up by talking to people in the community - people in the community. Now, I am certain they must, surely the members that is, of those two parties there, must talk to the ordinary person in their constituen cies .

I make a habit of going around Si r, knocking on doers saying, you know, "Here I am. Let' s have it, good or bad for the government. " I do that on a regular weekly basis. And I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that that function of a politician is per haps more importa nt than any other thing that he does. Because the government surely should be connected to the grass roots, should know what the people in the constituencies are saying.

I can tell him I have been into areas recently, areas that did not vote for the New Democratic Party in the last elec tion, areas where the average income I would think, given you know the environment that people are living in, must be pretty high. And I can tell you that there are people in those areas that say they have never voted NDP. They didn' t vote for me last time. They didn't vote for me in '6 9, and next time they are going to. And do you know why? Because of the programs we have introduced.

Thetle people I am talking about, perhaps, had incomes high enough, or were in a position in societ y that they could cope with inflation by passing on increased cost s to whoever was paying them money, but they were benefitting from certain programs, and one program in particular with this family that I'm talking about, was the home-care program. The home-care program which enables a married couple, for example, when one of them is ill, it enables • the family to have into their house a person who can treat the person that is ill.

And, Sir, that is a program that I am proud of, I'm as proud of that program as I am of the tax rebate program, the property tax rebate pro gram, the ambulance service program, the senior citizens' home program, senior citizens 1 repair program--t hose programs, Sir, are meaningful and have helped the people of thi s province to cope with inflation. (Applause) And if the members opposite think that they can get up and delude the people of Manitoba with that comedy of errors which was the contribution

1918 March 27, 1974 BUDGET DEBATE (MR. TURNBULL cont'd) . . of the two leaders opposite to the budget debate, then I say they are wrong. They should go out and talk to the people. Go out door to door, knock on the doors of the people in your constituencies and say to them, "H ave you benefitted from this pro gram or that program?" See what they say. See what they say. They have told me, Sir, that they have benefitted from them. There's a senior citizens apartment in my constituency. There are such apartments in other constitue ncies. I think the Member for Charleswood has one.

I know people in it-- and so does he, yes. He' s a self-made man, that guy from Charleswood, I think, unlike his leader, and I think he has contact with the people in the con stituency. That's the feedback I get anyway, and he knows. I would think, Sir, unless the people in Charleswood are different than everybody else in the country, they must be bene fitting from the programs that the government has introduced. Why don't you say so ? Home care ? Tha t's right. Home care and senior citizens program, and oth ers. Well, he says that they voted Conservative. I'm sure they did, obviously, they did obviously.

But that• s not the point, Mr. Speaker, I don' t care how they vote . The fact is that they voted for him and they happen to have benefitted from the program and it' s the benefits, Sir, that I'm concerned with. Now, I don't know, .some members opposite, Sir, have been in politics for many, many years. The Member for Pembina I think was a Co uncillor, the Member for Charleswood, Councillor . • . A MEMBER: No, Mayor. MR. TURNBULL: No ? Mayor ? Member for Morris has been involved.

The Member for Rock Lake I know, I hear much about him when I' m vi sit ing my in-laws,been in politics for years, been in politics for years, I cannot accept Sir, that they do not know people that have benefitted from the programs of this government . --(Interjection)-- Well, Sir, it depends who you ask; it depends who you ask about the programs of this government.

If you ask the ordinary guy, the guy who carries a lunch pail, the old age pensioner, he'll tell you quite frankly and straig htforwardly "I didn't vote for you, but by golly I sure like this program ." And I thi nk, Sir, that that' s universal in this province. It doesn't happen to be a peculiarity of my con stituency. Well, Sir, who does benefit from inflation ? The opposition say it' s government. I say corporations. I say the corporations, and I say those people benefit from inflation who can pass on the costs to others . Who's in the best position to do that ? Professionals - professi onals can do that.

Lawyers, doctors, engineers, accountants, professionals can do that. People need their services and they can raise their fees.- -(lnterjection)-- And school teachers can do that apparently, Sir, they have a powerful union. They can cope with inflation. Many l!l.rganized puople can cope with inflation. And most of all, Sir, businesses should cope with inflation. Mr. Speaker, one does not have to look around very hard to find just how much busin esses have benefitted from inflation. Mr. Speaker, I have an

article from the Globe and Mail last September which reported se cond quarter 1973 profits as compared to seco nd quarter 197 1, ·I'm sorry--! have an

article saying 1973 profit, seco nd quarter compared to '7 2 sec ond quarter profit. The increase, almost 50 percent. Mr. Speaker, that 's for all of those businesses, 281 or somet hing. of them, certain businesses, certain sectors of the economy have managed to make even more profit. --(Interjection) --Mr. Speaker, what's wrong with that ? The Member for Souris- Killarney who is a director of Wawanesa Insurance, I believe, says--oh, I'm sorry, Portage Co-op? MR. EARL McKE LLAR (Souris-K illarney): Point of order. I'd like to correct the Honourable Minister. I'm not a director of Wawanesa ...

A MEMBER : Portage Co-op ? MR. McKE LLAR: Portage Mutual Insurance Company. MR. TURNBULL: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker. The Member for Souris-K illarney is a Direct or of Portage Mutual Insurance and it 's the Member for Riel who is a director of Wawa nesa Insurance. Now, I can appreciate that those two members and the other members opposite would in fact, would in fact not want to say in this House or anywhere else that business benefits from inflation. Good Lord they might get kicked off the Board of Directors and they couldn' t have that. I wouldn't mind. They couldn' t have that.

Well, Sir, I want you to just listen to thi s. In the food proces sing industry - and I 'm

March 27, 1974 19 19' BUDGET DE BATE (MR. TURNBULL cont'd) ••• using the Globe and Mail figures because members opposite have this deep suspicion of government you know, if you give them a government statistic they say it' s incorrect which is a mystery to me but that' s the way they are. So I use the Globe and Mail, which by the way is a Free Press publication and I hope will continue to have the same high st andard of reporting in a year or two when Mr. Malone goes to be its managing editor, as it does now. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. TURNBULL : And I pray for that, Sir, because the Globe and Mail is a good paper. • • • • . continued next page

1920 March 27, 19 74 BUDGET DEBATE MR . TURNBULL: The food process ing industry, Si r, was reported to have in the fourth quarter of 19 73 profits of 82 percent higher than the previous quarter, and profits generally, 1973 as compared to 19 72, were up to almost 60 percent more than they were the year before. Sixty percent . Mr . Speak er , I don•t know what the members opposite have been dreaming about. They have a dream that the government is benefitting from inflation.

Sir, I tell them the facts to show that the people that are benefitting from inflation are the corporations in this country, and particularly it seems , the corporations that are involved in food processing - in food processing. Now, Sir , I realize , as members opposite I hope do, that their long-term profits have not been that high - 6 percent, 8 percent, 12 percent, you know that •s all. I think that 's substantia l, by the way, but you know it isn•t as high as 60 percent all the time . But those corporations have benefitted from the increase in pricing, from inflation. Mr.

Speaker , there are reasons why corporations are able to benefit from inflation more so than government. It's simply that the struct ure of industry is such, the structure of industry is such that they are able to charge practic ally what they want for whatever commodity they happen to be sel ling .

The government can do nothing about it, especia lly a provincial govern ment , And I' ll say to the honourable members opposite now, that if legislation is introduced by the Conservative Party in Ottawa - if they happen to be lucky at the next election - to control prices I would hope that they would recognize that that is a complete negation, would be a complete negation of everything that the members of the Conservative Party opposite have said in this House , because all that becomes clear from everything they've ever said is that the least government is best .

That is all that has come across to this side of the House from over there. But, Sir , in Ottawa they have another face, another tongue, and they say in Ottawa, price control and wage control, That is the Conservative national policy. Mr . Speaker, the Member for Roblin got up in this House a few weeks ago and wanted to know what I was going to do about the sugar price increase in this province . Well l' ll tell the Ho nourable Member from Roblin, that if the time ever comes under this government or any other government that the sugar industry in this province is regulated, I seek his support.

I seek his support . Be cause the sugar industry in this province , Sir, clearly charges whatever it wants for sugar. There's no reason they have to charge prices for sugar in this province which are connected to the international price that •s landed at Montreal. What is the relation ship - espe cially in a period of ris ing prices? There is no relationship at all. But they charge what the international price of sugar is .

I say to the Honourable Member for Charleswood that the sugar industry is one example and there are many, there are many of how prices can be set by an industry or by a firm that controls the market. And it 's as simple as that . Mr . Speaker , there is another group that, perhaps in business, perhaps not, that benefits from inflation. That are the . • . speculators . Speculators. Speculation in sugar, Sir, has forced the price up too . Speculation in a lot of things can put the price up over the short term. And the honourable members over there should know that, they should know that. Mr.

Speaker , I don't have to defend that , all I' ve got to do is reach down, pull out an

article I read in the Free Press indicating that people went out of grain, went out of other commodities and into sugar because the sugar price was ris ing . It•s an old story , not one that is made here for the first time . Well, Sir, I should point out to honourable members opposite that I have list ened carefully to the speeches of their two leaders .

I have seen nothing but a comedy of errors; I have seen no program from the Conservative Party at all, not even, Sir, the recognition of what their Nation al Conservative policy is , which is wage and price .control, Not even that, because they over there believe in the Conservative Party that the least government is the best. And I say, Sir, that that argument , that philosophy carried to its logical extreme means that they speak for nothing, nothing at all, because ultimately in their mind no government, no government at all would be the logical conclusion and the best .

And so I say, Sir, to them, it matters not who speaks for Conservat ism, it matters not whether it's the Leader of the C<?nservative Party or the Member for Sturgeon Creek who speaks for Conservatism, because Cons ervatism, Sir , as I have heard it enunciated in this House , is nothing, nothing at all. (Applause) MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr . Speaker, if no one else wishes to speak I' d like to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake, that the debate be adjourned, MOTION presented and carried.

March 27, 197 4 BUDGET DEBATE MR . SPEAKER: There is one Order for Return if we go to the next item. The Honourable Member for • . • 1921 MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge does not appear to be here . MR . JORGE NSON: I think we 're in Private Members' Hour right now, Sir . MR . GREEN: That is correct and I believe that -- I believe that the - oh that is corr ect. Orders for Return would come during government busin ess . The private members' resolutio ns , Mr. Speak er , start with Resol ution No . -- Orders for Return transferred for debate .

The Honourable Member for Wolseley, the Leader of the Liberal Party . Mr. Speaker, I think that probably it was unexpected by some that we would reach private members • resolutio ns today in view of the precedence of the Budget Speech. I wonder if there would be any inclination to continue the debate on Inte rim Supply if that is agreeable.

As honourable members know Interim Supply is normally required before the end of the month and if the members who are speaking - the Honourable Member for Bi rtle-Russell is here in his seat and if nobody objects, I'm sure private members probably didn't realize that the reso lutions would reach this far, we could proceed with Supply. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bi rtle-Rus sell . MR . GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Si nce my name was mentioned, I was anticipating speaking on the Mineral Acreage Tax, which is a private member's resolution. MR . GREEN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, but that resolution does not come up - oh ! Oh yes. The first one would be the Order for Return. MR . PATRICK: M r. Speaker, in the absence of the Member for Fort Rouge , I would like to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Boni face, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing • • . MR . GR EEN: No , Mr . Speaker, we 're not dealing with Or ders for Return. We are dealing with private members ' hour, unless there is consen t to go into Interim Supply.

I take it that there is not consent to go into Interim Supply, the Honourable Member for Bi rtle-Russell says that he was thinking of talking on the Mineral Ac reage Tax Act. There is no assurance that he will be recognized for the Mineral Ac reage Tax Act,

whereas if he i!' on the Supply motion I would think that he would have the ingenuity of dealing with that matter and on which he is the lead speaker . A MEMBER: I' ll take my chances . MR . GREEN: You'll take your chances? That 's fine. Well, M r. Speaker, if that is the case , we are in the Orders for Return, the Private Members '

schedule . MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Finance . MR . GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker , the matter stands open on the Or der Paper but my impression is that when thi s was discussed last, when it is transferred for debate it is expected to be introduced by the member who asked for it to be transferred. It is not in that respect open because the member who asked for the Order for :ieturn would be the one who would be given the opportunity of introducing the resolution, and that was discussed the last time it came up. I'm not suggesting that it wasn't stood once or can•t be stood ten tim es, I' m not sure that an Order for Return stands in the same position as a private member's r

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-69
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 69.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6dd466345b27485705a1257d188a673ccecb8709

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