Manitoba Hansard — 26 March 1969 (Sitting 32, 28th Legislature, 3rd Session)

28-3-32

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable James H. Bilton Vol. XV No. 32 2:30p.m., Wednesday, March 26th, 1969. Third Session, 28th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans - Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA Bl RTLE-RUSSELL BRAN DON BROKENHEAD BURROWS CARILLON CHURCHILL CYPRESS DAUPHIN DUFFERIN ELMWOOD EMERSON ETHELBERT PLAINS FISHER FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE HAM IOTA INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKESIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OSBORNE PEMBINA PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINELAND RIVER HEIGHTS ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROCKWOOD-IBERVILLE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHN'S ST. MATTHEWS ST. VITAL STE.

ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-LANSDOWNE SPRINGFIELD SWAN RIVER THE PAS TURTLE MOUNTAIN VIRDEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME Hon. J. Douglas Watt Steve Patrick Harry E. Graham R. 0. Lissaman Samuel Uskiw Ben Hanuschak Leonard A. Barkman Joe Borowski Hon. Thelma Forbes Hon. Stewart E.McLean,O.C. William Homer Hamilton Russell John Doern John P. Tanchak Mike Kawchuk Peter Masniuk Hon. Charles H. Witney Hon. Sterling R. Lyon, O.C. Hon. Gurney Evans Hon. George Johnson Nelson Shoemaker Earl Dawson Sidney Green Peter Fox Oscar F. Bjornson Douglas L. Campbell Albert Vielfaure Lemuel Harris Hon.

Waiter Weir Warner H. Jorgenson Hon. Obie Baizley Mrs. Carolyne Morrison Gordon E. Johnston Russell Paulley J. M. Froese Hon. Sidney Spivak, Q.C. Wally McKenzie Henry J. Einarson Hon. Harry John Enns J. E. Jeannotte Laurent Desjardins Elman Guttormson D. M. Stanes Saul Cherniack, O.C. Robert Steen Hon. Donald W. Craik Gildas Molgat T. P. Hillhouse, O.C. Saul Miller M. E. McKellar Fred T. Klym Hon. James H. Bilton Hon. J. B. Carroll E. I. Dow D. M. McGregor Philip Petursson James Cowan, O.C. Leonard H.

Claydon ADDRESS Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 10 Red Robin Place, Winnipeg 12 Binscarth, Manitoba 832 Eleventh St., Brandon, Man. Box 1, Grp. 7, R.

R. 1, East Selkirk, Man. 11 Aster Ave., Winnipeg 17 Steinbach, Manitoba Thompson, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Sperling, Manitoba 104 Roberta Ave., Winnipeg 15 Ridgeville, Manitoba Gilbert Plains, Manitoba lnwood, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Neepawa, Manitoba Rivers, Manitoba 121 Cathedral Ave., Winnipeg 4 627 Prince Rupert Ave., Winnipeg 15 Lac du Bonnet, Manitoba 326 Kelvin Blvd., Winnipeg 29 La Broquerie, Manitoba 1109 Alexander. Ave.

Winnipeg 3 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Morris, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Manitou, Manitoba 7 Massey Dr., Portage la Prairie, Man. 435 Yale Ave. W., Transcona 25, Man. Winkler, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 lnglis, Manitoba Glenboro, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Meadow Portage, Manitoba 357 Des Meurons St., St. Boniface 6 Lundar, Manitoba 381 Guildford St., St. James 12 333 St.

John's Ave., Winnipeg 4 2C-616 Strathcona St., Winnipeg 10 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Room 250, Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Dominion Bank Bldg., Selkirk, Man. 324 Enniskillen Ave., Winnipeg 17 Nesbitt, Manitoba Beausejour, Manitoba Swan River, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Boissevain, Manitoba Kenton, Manitoba 681 Banning St., Winnipeg 10 300 - 286 Smith St., Winnipeg 1 1 - 116'h Sherbrook St., Winnipeg 1

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, March 26, 1969 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. 745 MR. SPEAKER: I feel sure that all the honourable members will be pleased to see Mr. Skinner in his usual place, having recovered from his unfortunate accident. At the same time, I would like to express to Mr. Tanner, of our protective staff, sincere appreciation of all the members of the House for a job well done in the absence of Mr. Skinner. ' Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Notices of Motion. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. D. MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden) introduced Bill No. 35,

an Act to validate By-Law No. 1756 of the Town of Virden. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, would like to direct a question to -- I guess the Provincial Secretary. Is it the practice of the government to send subscriptions of Hansard to all of the regional libraries in the Province of Manitoba? HON. J, B. CARROLL (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, and Minister of Tourism and Recreation) (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER:.

May I interrupt proceedings for a moment and introduce our young guests, which I overlooked a moment ago. We have with us today 38 students of Grade 11 standing of the Brooklands Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. David Froese. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Assiniboia. On behalf of all the Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly, I welcome .l':ou all here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday evening I addressed a question to the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Re sources, in the absence of the Minister of Transport, regarding employees who feel that they• re under some suspicion down at 10 Midland Avenue. The Honourable the Minister of Transpor tation indicated the other day that he might make a report to the House. I'm wondering if he can at this time as to the circumstances prevailing at that location. HON. STEWART E. McLEAN Q. C. (Minister of Transportation) (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, the Treasury Officers of the province carried out an inspection, or investigation with regard to employees• cars at 10 Midland Street, which is the garage of the Department of Transportation. As a result, five employees were- - there were, shall we say, irregularities suspected with regard to five employees. One of the employees had purple gas in the tank of his private car. That matter was referred to the Department of Finance to be dealt with by that department in accordance with the practice that they follow in such cases.

Four others were found to have gasoline in their private cars that was taken, in our view, taken from the government supply of gasoline kept at 10 Midland Street for the use of our motor equipment. One of the four has given an explanation which has been checked and found to be correct, and that matter is resolved. With regard to the three remainder, the necessary disciplinary action will be taken. I should inform the members that the Manitoba Government Employees• Association were fully advised of the matter and of the action that we intended to take.

746 March 26, 1969 MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I believe my question should be directed to the Honourable the Minister of Transportation. In view of the fact that there's still quite a bit of snow and ice in parts of the province, is it the intention to allow the use of studded tires until a later date, till past April 1st this year? Is it April 1st? --(Interjection) -- MR. McLEAN: I think, Mr. Speaker, the answer has been given; it's April 30th, and I'm hoping the ice will be gone by that time. Mr.

Speaker, if I may, on Friday, March 21st, the Honourable the Member for Hamiota asked two questions relative to the Port of Churchill and the Hudson Bay Route Association. I was absent at the time. He asked if the government was aware that the Hudson Bay Route Association will be meeting soon with Transport Minister Paul Hellyer. The answer is that although I am a member of the Association and have been for some time, I am not a director and have no knowledge of this meeting to which the honourable member makes reference. The second question was: Will the government have a representative at the meeting?

I think the answer to that is that that depends on when the meeting is being held and for what purpose, and we will take steps to inform ourselves to determine whether or not any action is required so far as the government is concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Honourable the Minister of Education, I would like to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Health.

Is it the intention of the government to place the matter of construction and the approval of the technical vocational schools under the jurisdiction of the Public Schools Finance Board? And will this also apply later to the technical vocational schools as well? HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Health and Social Services) (Gimli): Mr. Sp·3aker, I wonder if we could accept that as a question to be directed to the Minister of Education. I be lieve the Public Schools Finance Board ..., I think your question is are they now under the School Finance Board. I think I would ask him to answer that. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Finance) (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, even though he is absent, I would like to provide an answer to questions asked by the Leader of the Opposition. On March 20th he directed a question to my honourable friend the Minister of Corporate and Consumer Affairs: Do the military establishments in Manitoba, such as Shilo, Rivers, Gimli, purchase their power in bulk and then look after the distribution within the camp? Answer: Yes.

The facilities for distribution of power within the military establishments are owned, operated and maintained by the Department of National Defence. A supplementary question: Would the Mini'ster also find out if there has been a recent in crease in the rates charged to the military establishments? No, there has not been an increase in rates charged to military establishments.

Also, even in the absence of my honourable friend from Ethelbert Plains, I would like to refer to his question concerning the application of the revenue tax, or sales tax to grain storage facilities, his question being as follows: I'd like to address a question to the Honourable Pro vincial Treasurer. Is it true that there have been applications disallowed with respect to the sales tax exemption on granaries and prefabricated grain bins, especially if they• re of the quon set type? The answer: Yes, there have been disallowances but not with respect to the type of grain bin for which exemption is provided.

The quonset type hut is not a type of grain bin; it's a multi-purpose building, and for that reason I have to inform my honourable friend, and the House, that there have been applications which have been disallowed, but not for the type of grain bin or materials to build and repair grain bins which were the subject of the Order-in Council granting the exemption. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GOROON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr.

Speaker, on March 3rd I directed a question to the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce regarding the Macdonald Airport sale, so I will direct my question to the acting Minister, who I believe is the Minister of Finance. Has the Macdonald Airport option been taken up, and if so, has it been sold or leased? MR. EVANS: I will see that enquiries are made and an answer provided. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. PHILIP PETURSSON (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I have recently read of some

March 26, 1969 747 (MR. PETURSSON cont'd) ... proposed drilling for oil in the Hudson's Bay, and I have in mind the accident that occurred off the Santa Barbara, California coast where an oil well broke loose, in whatever way, and spread oil over a matter of --I think the newspapers said about 40, 000 square miles of ocean area.

I would wish to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and ask him whether precautions are being taken in the event that there should be drilling in the Hudson's Bay for oil to prevent a similar accident, or to assure that a similar accident would not take place. If it were to happen, Mr. Speaker, the whole bay would be knocked out. There is no place for the oil to go other than the surface of the bay waters,

whereas in the Pacific they had 5, 000 miles straight west. Are there any precau tions being taken, Mr. Speaker, to prevent such an accident? HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Rockwo od-lberville): Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it's fair to say generally that following that unfortunate 'llishap on the west coast of California that all agencies, both government and private, were made very much more aware of the possibility of these dangerous happenings. I am aware of some repre sentation and concern being expressed at the national level in Ottawa with respect to this mat ter.

I can't indicate to the honourable member any specific steps that have been taken, but cer tainly all of us that are in any way responsible for the issuing of permits or licensing, or in deed the private industry itself, who of course are looking at a tremendous financial obligation as a result of this mishap there, will be tightening up their operations to prevent this from re occurring. I may l�ave something at a later date to report to the honourable members. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Natural. Resources. Has he an answer to the question I directed with respect to a news report on the CBC the other evening about the sale of 200, 000 sandbags? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'm Pot attempting to evade this answer, I just have not had that information made available to me yet. I indicated to him that I will, and perhaps maybe even later on in the day if I get to my estimates I can supply him with that answer. ORDERS OF THE DAY --MOTIONS FOR PAPERS MR. SPEAKER: Orders for Return. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to speak on the Order so I'll speak on Friday. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing:

(1) The total number of cars now owned by the Manitoba Government and/or any of its boards, commissions, crown corporations or other agencies.

(2) The total number of cars owned in 1959 by the Manitoba Government and/or any of its boards, commissions, crown corporations or other agencies.

(3) The total amount of money spent on car purchases in each of the years from J 965 to the present, with a breakdown as to the dealership from which the vehicles were purchased,· the number of vehicles purchased from each dealer and the total value of purchases from each. And by leave of the House, I would like to add the following:

(4) Were tenders called in all cases of vehicle purchases.

(5) If not, list exceptions, giving details .. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave to add those two items? - Agreed. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. HON. THELMA FORBES (Minister of Government Services) (Cypress): Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to accept the Order. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I would prefer that this be left over till tomorrow. I'd like to say a few words on that --Friday - I meant Friday. MR.

SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of the proposed motion of the Honourable the Minister of Health and Social Services standing in my name. The proposed amendment of the Honourable Member for Rhineland pertaining to the second reading of Bill 33, in which he proposes the advisability of referring the matter of

748 March 26, 1969 (MR. SPEAKER cont•d) ... compulsory medicare program to a province-wide referendum for a decision. This is contrary to our rules, namely 84, which provides that every Bill be read twice in the House before being referred to a committee or amended. To take this matter a point further, may I refer the honourable member to Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice, 17th Edition, at Page 551, which lists inadmissible amendments to a Bill, part of which is quoted for the record: "11.

Amendments to a Bill proposing that an Address or Resolution of one House of Parliament should affect the repeal of the Bill. Then (g) --Order please --Item (g), Or that the provision of a Bill should be subject to a referendum has been ruled out of or der as proposing changes to legislative procedure which would be contrary to the constitutional practice. These references lead me to believe that the recommendations embodied in this amend ment suggesting a referendum to the Bill is contrary to the constitutional procedures and prac tices and has been the cause of such amendments being ruled out of order.

These opinions, and the rulings referred to, compel me to rule the amendment presently before the House out of order. • Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Hamiota, MR. EARL DAWSON (Hamiota): I was going to speak on this, Mr. Speaker, on the main motion. Mr. Speaker, I wanted to take a few moments to make a plea to those on the other side regarding the premiums for the Manitoba Medical Services.

I find that many people have tele phoned me and written me letters that they were concerned with two problems, the first one being the fact that the doctors would be available to provide the services to them. I think that it has been established that the doctors, being the honourable profession that they belong to, will be providing medical services regardless of the outcome. The second one is the premiums, and the feeling of the majority of Manitobans is that the premiums are much too high.

And when one does a little research, as I have done, you find out that the average wage earner in Manitoba on a minimum wage of $1.25 an hour and working on a 48-hour week would have $60. 00 coming to him at the end of one week. But then if you take the deductions off that are necessary nowadays, such as 80 cents for unemployment insurance and approximately 87 cents for Canada pension and approximately --using a married man with a family of two children under 16 years of age --there would be $1. 55 a week income tax.

Now these deductions come, on a yearly basis, to $41. 60 for unemployment insurance, the person's share; Canada pension would be $42. 94; and his personal income tax would be $80.60. Now this gives us a total of $381. 00 and leaves a man approximately $2, 800. 00. If he•s going to feed his family the way a family should be fed, on an average basis he'll be spending approxi mately $1, 600 to $1, 800 for groceries, and then he still has his rent to pay and his heat and light.

If we gave him $100.00 a month for his heat and light we find that this man is in the hole by approximately $200. 00 on an average income per person in Manitoba. Now he does not have any fringe benefits for himself. There's no money allotted for entertainment, there's no money allotted for clothing, there's no money allotted for anything special. I fail to understand why the government has introduced premiums and introduced them in the method that they have.

It is my personal feeling, and I know it is the feeling of those on this side, that the ability-to-pay should have been used, and I am sure --I have used the wage earner here --we have many of the farmers in the rural areas that are in the same position. Their income in some years is not very high and could well be $3,000 or less in one season; other years they may have a better year when the grain is moving and they would be able to pay.

So if this was based on the ability-to-pay, I am sure that there would be more satisfaction in the Province of Manitoba, and those that are able to pay would not voice any objection. If one analyzes the plan and you see that the federal government are contributing approxi mately half of the cost, less what it costs to operate, that the balance is made up of premiums because the provincial government are not making any contribution financially from any of the --what would it be, the Consolidated Fund or the General Fund --and to me this seems wrong.

If you analyze the situation further, for a person who had an HC plan under the MMS and paying his hospital premiums, his total premium was $170.00 a year for a married man. Now the pre miums will be increased by $30. 00, and of course --or $34. 00 I should say --and those on the other side say, well it's justified because now you'll have the HCX plan. But I want to point out that really the HCX plan is not necessary to those that are living in a rural area such as the one I am living in. We have the health clinic which provides X-rays for --I think the first one ..

March 26, 1969 749 (MR. DAWSON cont•d) . . . is $1.25 and any additional are 25 cents apiece, so really this covered the part of the X plan that is going to be a luxury right now and in effect cost every family approximately 30 to $34.00 more. Before I sit down, I want to repeat my appeal to those on the other side to talk to the peo ple in your constituencies, ask them if they think that the premium of $204. 00 is a fair one.

I am sure that many of you will be told that we want Medicare but we can't afford the type of pre miums that you're charging us, and I think that they will agree that the premiums should be paid on the person's ability to pay. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. EDWARD I. DOW ( Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Speaker, when the Medicare Bill was first introduced in this House, I was one of the ones that spoke against the Bill for varying rea sons, not for the reasons of not supplying the people with the needs of medical care but for the matter of principle that is involved in the statement of compulsion. Now that we have passed this Bill, I am one that is quite in accord with the fact that we should make this Bill work. Un der our democratic system of government we should make it work, but in making it work, Mr. Speaker, I think that we should analyze the fact, have we got the best plan?

I haven• t heard yet as to how much conciliation or meetings of the minds with the Manitoba Medical Association and the department took place to come up to this decision of settling this plan. I would like to be able to tell my constituents that this was done in good fai'th on both parties, and so far I haven•t heard this brought out in the House. Living as I do, not too far from the Saskatchewan border, they have the Medicare plan in Saskatchewan and have had for some years.

As I understand, they're participating from the federal government as we will, but their premium now is $40.00 a year less under the same, supposedly the same system. So the question is asked, why do we have to pay the $117. 00 as against $77. 00? I think it's a logical question, it's a question which I as a representative should be able to answer and so far I have not been able to answer that question to their satisfaction. Another disturbing factor that comes into my mind-- and the Minister will be able to correct me on this I am sure-- but my information is that in 1967 a fee

schedule was esw.b lised in British Columbia, in Alberta, in Ontario, and in Manitoba, and for all given purposes they're identical fee schedules. Now my question is that we in Manitoba are paying the doctors 85 percent of the fee schedule, but my understanding is that in Ontario and B. C. they are pay ing 90 percent of the fee schedule, and in Alberta, 96 percent of the fee schedule. Now, Mr.

Speaker, doesn't this come to the point that we in Manitoba that are trying to build our province to attract people here, that unless we can keep the same standards of pay for these type of professional people, how can we continue to attract them to locate in Manitoba? I don't say that this is a fact that will immediately scare doctors away from Manitoba, but I ask you, is this a good sound basis to ask these type of professional people to come to Ma..Tlltoba when we1re not paying the same fee basis, the same percentage as our neighboring provinces.

I don't know what Saskatchewan is paying because at the time my information came to me they hadn• t set up their fee schedule. But I do believe that in the interests of making this a success ful plan, the public should be well informed of all the negotiations because there seems to be two sides and both seem to be at adverse positions. And I would like at this time, if it is pos sible, for the information to be given to me anyway, and I would say to the House, so that we can answer our constituents in a manner that we have the answers to satisfy the people to make this a successful Bill.

I don't see how we can do it in any other way. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JOE BOROWSKI (Churchill): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm just sorry I couldn't speak last night. I've only been in this House one week, and after the member on our right finished his speech last night I was mad enough that I could have probably made one of the best speeches that I'll ever make in this House. I'm amazed that a speech like that should come from that side of the House. I was under the impression that all of the Conservatives were across the way, but it looks like there's at least one on this side.

A MEMBER: There's more than one. MR. BOROWSKI: More than one? Well the one I heard today sounded pretty good in the backbench. But I'm really amazed, Mr. Speaker, that there's so many champions of the rights of the doctors. There's 900 doctors, that•s one percent of the population, and there's 965,000 -- approximately, unless some have left in the last year-- taxpayers or people in this prov ince, and I'm really amazed that everybody on the other side, and a few on this side, are so

750 March 26, 1969 I (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd) ... concerned about the rights of one percent. What about the rights 11 of the rest of the people? Whose rights are more important? We're compelled by law to pay 1 premiums of $17. 00 a month and I'm darned sure that there's a lot of people who can't pay them unless they go and apply for welfare. Now some people qualify under MMS. I understand about 26, 000 people qualify to get free medical cards, free hospitalization cards. Under this scheme, I imagine these same people still get these premiums paid on their behalf by the municipalities.

But what about the rest of them? There's one- third of the people in Manitoba weren't covered by MMS. Who's going to pay for them? And yet all I hear is the rights, the precious rights of the doctors -- dammit, we've got some rights too. We're dragged into this scheme by this government, and incidentally everybody in this House except two people in 1966 voted for it, were dragged into this scheme, we have to pay it, but all we hear today, by the very same peo- ple that voted, defending the rights of the doctors.

We have a situation in Thompson that there's eight doctors and every one of them has opted out of the scheme. What about our rates? One of the things Medicare is supposed to do is cover everybody, and the other thing is that you have a choice of doctors. We don't have that in Thompson. I haven't heard anybody on the right or across the way say, well what about our rates? The other point we should remember, and this was made by Mr. Trudeau during the last election and his Minister Mr. Munro, that if we• re to have a just society, one of the two basic things we must have is a decent minimum wage and Medicare.

Without that, he said, there can be no just society. In 1965, Mr. Pearson fought the election on the issue of Medicare. True, he was elected by a minority government but he was still elected, and the amazing part was that some of these people here that are speaking against it now, they didn't go around Manitoba when they were supporting the various candidates that were running for Ottawa for the Liberal Party, they didn't say don't vote for Mr. Pearson because he is going to bring in Medicare. I never heard one of them. The Conservatives did the very same thing.

I didn't hear any of them going around saying don't vote for those people in Ottawa because they're going to drag in Medicare. They didn't say, as some of the Ministers have said since, that Medicare is a pro vincial responsibility and you guys in Ottawa have got no damn business bringing in legislation to force us -- not one of them. MRS. FORBES: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege, I think the honourable member should have it brought to his attention that we use parliamentary language in this House, and I object to the language that he is using. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, !think you're in full command and capable of hearing what is going on. I'm sure you've had enough experience to make your own judgment without interference from anybody opposite. MRS. FORBES: I still think that he should use ... MR. DOUGLAS CAMPBEL L (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, just on this point, I•ve heard it come up -- and I am speaking on a point of order rather than on a point of privilege -- but I have heard it come up several times recently and I think it is a good idea once in a while for us to sort of review in our own minds the rules and what should be said. My understanding of the rule, Mr.

Speaker, is that it says that if any member is transgressing a rule, any member of the House may call him to order. The Speaker "shall" MR. PAULLEY: The Speaker shall. MR. CAMPBELL: ....... and any member "may." MR, SPEAKER: I would also remind the House that on several occasions I've brought this point to the attention of the members and I think it's reasonable for me to expect that they will abide by the rules, as I am sure the Honourable Member for Churchill intends to do.

I realize he is new to the Assembly and I gave him the benefit of the doubt that those remarks have probably been a slip of the tongue, but I look forward to him not continuing in that manner. MR. BOROWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was hoping that when I got elected to this As sembly, Mr. Speaker, that I wouldn't have to go to a finishing school before I could take my seat.

I'm a working man and I have been all my life, and you'll forgive me if I can't use the flowery, the meaningless euphemisms that we have heard from across the House, but I will attempt to stay within the rules as you just suggested. -- (Interjection) -- You wouldn't under stand that, Mr. Attorney-G eneral. In 1966, or 1965 when Mr. Pearson was fighting the election, I didn't hear any of the Conservatives in this province who were campaigning for the various people running for the federal post going around and saying that it's none of the federal government's business, it's

March 26, 1969 751 (MR. BOROWSKI cont•d) ... within the provincial jurisdiction and we ask you not to support them on this issue -- not one of them. In 1966 this very House passed, ·with two exceptions- I believe there's two people voted against it-- but I believe it was 55 members voted in favour of Medicare in 1966, two years ago. --(Interjection)-- 1967? 0. K., it was 1967. The point is, Mr. Speaker, it was voted on. In 1968, Mr. Trudeau went throughout Canada and he said Medicare is the law of the land; I'm not interested in talking about Medicare, it's the law of the land.

Did we hear one Liberal in this province say don•t vote for Mr. Trudeau because he's going to bring in Medicare? And now they•ve got the gall to stand up here and say that we shouldn• t get in Medicare on this basis or on that basis, or this is wrong with it or that is wrong with it, I'm all for it but-- there's always those "buts". We didn•t hear any of those "buts" in June 25, 19 68. I realize that hypocrisy is another unparliamentary word, Mr.

Speaker, so I won•t use it, but it's this type of thing that makes us working people who mve to pay these premiums sick, because it seems there is one law for the guy who pays and one law for the guy who practises. Thompson is a classic situation and Brandon is another one. We are going to compel these people by legislation to pay premiums to doctors who are not compelled to give them service. The Honourable Member for Inkster mentioned that we should give these rugged free enterprisers a chance to practice medicine as they see fit and he was criticized for this. Maybe he went too far, ·I don't know.

He is entitled to his opinion. I would suggest that if these guys are really rugged free enterprisers that they claim they are .... MR. SPEAKER: I hate to interrupt the honourable gentleman but he must not refer to the honourable members as "guys" but rather honourable members. Would he mind doing that? MR. BOROWSKI: I beg your pardon, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: I understood the honourable gentleman to be referring to the honourable members as guys. MR. BOROWSKI: I am sorry to disturb you, Mr. Speaker. I'll make many other mis takes as I go on and I hope you will bear with me.

One of the suggestions -- I believe I have made this on Bill Trebilcoe•s by- line and I'll make the suggestion here -- if they really want to practice medicine under their beloved free enterprise system, they could do one of two things. They could build their own hospitals and practise in them, or they could, as one hospital does in this community here in Winnipeg, they could pay a fee. In other words, if they bring in a patient to do an operation on him in the hospital, pay a fee for using it. If they really can't stand our socialized medicine and medicare, then the best thing to do is as any other businessman.

He puts up his own garage, puts in his hoist, hires mechanics, gets the tools; and if you want your car operated on you bring it in, he fixes it up and he charges you. These doctors, if this is what they like, let them do it. I have no objection. These people, the doctors, they go to schools that are supported by you and I the taxpayer; 85 percent of their educational costs and training is paid by the taxpayers. After we have trained the doctors, or they have licensed themselves to practice, we then turn around and supply hospitals.

I don•t know the bill for the hospital last year but I believe it's in the neighborhood of $100 million or thereabouts, so we supply these hospitals for these rugged individualists so they can practise. If they are really against all these things that we are doing -- and, it's us that• s doing it - then let them build their own. I 1:11 ve no objection. I really can•t see those that support free enterprise to come up and condemn the Honour able Member for Inkster for suggesting this.

You can•t have it both ways; either you are for free enterprise or you are for socialism, but the way it is being practised in this country up until now, it's rugged free enterprise for us little guys and creamy socialism for the rich. Well it's time it changed. It's time it's changed.

This is the second century we are in, and I think you all recall the statement our Prime Minister made a few weeks ago, that unless we, the politicians -- not the people, the politicians -- the lawmakers, and the people who own the factories and the mines, unless we start sharing the good life of this country with these people there is going to be a revolution.

This is the Liberal Prime Minister, not a socialist that said it, the Prime Minister, a very responsible person, telling Canada that unless we get off and start sharing, giving the poor a piece of the action, there is going to be a revolution iJJ this country. One of the members on the other side said these are the things that cause revolutions -- this scheme that we are. talking about- these are the things that cause revolutions. I'd sug gest to him that it's people like him that cause revolutions and his reactionary ideas. The medical profession, as we see it practised here or in Saskatchewan or anywhere,

752 March 26, 1969 (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd) .. . seems to be the last frontier of reaction. To some of us who are trying to open the northland, it seems to be the last frontier, but really the last frontier -- we could be fighting it right here. We're one of the richest nations in the world and yet we are the recipient of second- class dollar- oriented medical care, and it's time -- certainly it is, every thing is based on our almighty dollar.

Today if you haven't got that 15 percent, or after April 1st if you haven't got that 15 percent, or if you haven't got -- the bill, if it is under $10.00, if you don't have the cash, you are buying pork or beans or bologna, you can't get the medical care. We are the richest nation in the world and the whole thing is tied up to the almighty dollar. I think it's a disgrace, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, would the honourable member permit a question or two, because I'm .. . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill, the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface wonders if you would accept a question. MR. BOROWSKI: If I can answer it I certainly will. MR. DESJARDINS: The first question - - I would like to know if he•s in favour or not of the plan. He is talking about the people being dragged in and he seemed to think that this was wrong, that we are dragged into this plan. The second one - is he suggesting that the doctors should be forced to belong to the plan? MR. BOROWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I am saying if we are compelled by law, by this very Legislature, to pay premiums, I see nothing wrong - these aren't God•s chosen people, the doctors -- if we are compelled by law to pay premiums, I see nothing wrong with compulsion for the rich. MR. DESJARDINS: Does the honourable member suggest then that the same thing should be done for all labour then, that when society is maybe a little fed up with the union, they should be forced to work. MR. BOROWSKI: We are not discussing labour; we are discussing doctors and Medicare. MR.

DESJARDINS: No, I beg your pardon, the honourable member is talking about the labour of the doctors. I think it's the same thing. MR. SPEAKER: I wonder if this isn•t becoming an argnment between two honourable members. May we proceed and may I put the question? Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I want to raise a specific point before the Honourable Minister has a chance to wrap up his comments and so on, and this is the ques tion of why chiropractors are included. This is something that puzzles me personally.

I would like to know, for example, whether there was a tremendous demand on the part of the public which prompted the government to take this action. And I would also like to know whether the Minister can indicate to the House what the difference might be between the inclusion of chiro practic services and their exclusion; how many millions of dollars are expected to be spent on these services. For example, why was chiropractic service chosen over other paramedical services? We could have perhaps included drugs in the Medicare plan but this was not the case.

Osteopaths or other practising paramedical people could have been included. I would also like to know whether there was any consideration given to the fact that chiropractors might be used only if they were referred by medical doctors. As I understand the present plan, a per son can go to a chiropractor directly. Did the Minister, for example, consider that only on the basis of referral that chiropractic services could be used? Because it seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that the medical association has a very definite policy on this profession and which would seem to be somewhat counter to the position of the government, and op. questions of medical competence, the MMA1s attitude might be given some recognition. So to sum up, I would simply like to know why chiropractors were given a priority in re lation to many other medical services or many other medical costs. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, that the debate be adjourned. HON. STERLING R. LYON Q.

C. (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, if I_ could just rise on a point of order having to do with the business of the House, in particular this Bill, and I'm not intending to debate my honourable friend's motion. As honourable mem bers will appreciate, the plan comes into effect on the 1st of April. The amendments that are going through, hopefully would have the approval of the House by that time. I realize that ..

March 26, 1969 753 (MR.

LYON cont•d) ... some honourable members still wish to speak on the Bill, and I rise at this point merely to seek the co-operation of the members of the House in completing the debate at second reading tomorrow, if at all possible, so that the Minister could wind up the debate tomorrow, and then with the idea in mind-- and if again we have the agreement of the members of the House -- that we would call Law Amendments Committee for Friday morning in lieu of our regular sitting on Friday morning in order that we could hopefully dispose of the Bill in Law Amendments Committee, get it back into the House on Friday, or Monday, with the idea of having it approved by the House, if possible, as close to the date of April 1st as we can get.

I'm in no position to go any further other than to ask for the co- operation of the hon ourable members. I realize that today, if necessary for the official opposition to have the adjournment, and I make no objection at all. In fact I can't and don't make any objection, but am merely seeking the co- operation of the honourable members in trying to meet this

schedule as closely as we can. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that we are certainly ready and willing to co- opente on this side of the House, but I think it would strike more of a responsive note if the government had tabled this Bill before now. We have been in session over a month and I don't know why this Bill was tabled just a few days before coming into force. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, if I may make an observation on the point of order raised by my honourable friend the leader of the House.

I agree with him as to the desirability of the Bill being forwarded and processed as quickly as possible; however, I raise the question as to the advisability of calling Law Amendments for Friday morning, which would just be the day after the Minister has wound up his second reading, if that does happen tomorrow, Mr.

Speaker, because I am sure that there are a considerable number of people who would be interested in attending at Law Amendments Committee to make representation on Bill 33, and I am sure my honourable friend the Attorney-Ge neral, in his capacity as House Leader, would not wish to deprive any citizen from attending Law Amendments in order to consider and discuss such an important matter as the Bill that we have before us. MR.

LYON: Still speaking to the point of order, I am quite in agreement with my honour able friend the Leader of the New Democratic Party, and part of the reason for suggesting at this stage that that might be a possible course of action was to give at least 48 hours notice, which is more than sufficient for anyone who wishes to appear before the committee on Friday morning. MR. PAULLEY: That would be fine, if I may again speak on the point of order, Mr. Speaker, providing we were assured that the Bill would pass second reading tomorrow.

If my honourable friend can guarantee to me that the Bill will be passed for second reading to morrow, and that on the assurance of my honourable friend that those who have indicated to me a desire to appear at Law Amendments that I can use his name as a guarantor that the Bill will be at Law Amendments on Friday morning- - and I guess that's government business isn't it, Friday morning-- then I am prepared to go along. I just make this observation. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Speaker, if I might also speak on the point of order dealing with government business, it seems to me that on an occasion of this kind that it would be well for the House to endeavour to work with the government rather than against it in order to expedite this Bill, the passage of this Bill, if they intend to pass it, beca�se it must be quite a job for the administration to have everything ready -- and I gather that they have been working at it pretty diligently -- and even though I agree with the fact that perhaps the Bill could have been down sooner and all the rest, yet we are faced with the situation as it is, and wouldn't it be best to give the notice that the Honourable the Attorney-· General has suggested through the press and other public media that we are planning on being in Law Amendments Committee on Friday morning, and then of course that doesn't mean that it has to finish then.

If there are other people who wish to be heard, or if the ones who come require so much time that we can•t finish them, I would think that it would be quite possible, by agreement, to sit on the private members' time later on in that day, or if necessary, on Saturday in order to expedite the passage of the Bill.

I find it difficult to forget that at one time we were occupying the treasury benches and I know that with the best of intentions you sometimes get into these positions, and I think inas much as it seems to be the wish of most of the members that we pass the Bill, that we should try and make it as workable as possible. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, I would be quite agreeable to

754 March 26, 1969 (MR. FROESE cont'd) ... have Law Amendments sit Friday morning and also Friday after noon, but I'm not so sure about Saturday because I have already made a commitment in con nection with Saturday and I would like to be at the committee meetings as well. So I would give notice now that I would not be prepared to sit on Saturday. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank my honourable friends, all of them, for their helpful co-operation in this matter.

I think it's a problem that we all jointly face of getting the Bill through in a reasonable time and certainly the government isn't trying to hurry it or rail road it unduly.

I appreciate the sentiments of co-operation that have been expressed, and if we could now then, with that indication of assent , indicate to the members of the press and to the House generally that the committee would be called, would it be agreeable say for 9. 30 on Friday morning so we could get a good start and that also there would be agreement that the House would not meet, all of course predicated upon something that I can•t give any guarantee of; namely that the Bill would pass tomorrow. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion on the adjournment_ of Bill No. 33, and after a voice vote de.clared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Second Readings -- Bill No. 4. The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (Minister of Labour)(F lin Flon)presented Bill No. 4,

an Act to amend The Fires Prevention Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. WITNEY: This Act, Mr. Speaker, simply provides in the regulations that we may be able to make regulations to conform with the various national codes that relate to fire prevention. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. SAUL MILLER (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I would like some clarification. The Minister mentions it would conform to the national code.

Is it the idea that the regulations would supersede any municipal codes that may be in existence, or the code of the Metropolitan Winnipeg Corporation for example. Are they going to be dovetailing this or are they going to be in conflict? I would like some clarification on that. MR. SIDNEY GREEN (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, in addition to what the Member for Seven Oaks has asked, and possibly perhaps a little more specific, there were considerable argu ments in the City of Winnipeg in particular with regard to the use of certain fire prevention apparatus in rooming houses and on the third floor of places which were occupied other than by the owner, and as a matter of fact I think there was some suggestion that there be similar regulations with regard to owner-occupied premises.

As I read the regulations it appeared to me that everything that was requested or everything that was thought about at the municipal council level could be passed by Order-in-Council. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I hasten to say that I wouldn•t object to such an Order-in-Council, I'm not suggesting that I would and I'm not suggesting that this could happen, but as I read it it indicated that regulations could be passed which would permit any kind of regulation in any kind of house with regard to fire prevention and fire control, and if that is the case then certainly we would want to know about it because it would certainly give to the present Cabinet the power to do many things which were objected to by some at the municipal level, and I would like to know whether the Cabinet wants to do these things. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. WITNEY: Mr. Speaker, I'll be closing the debate. In this matter, Mr. Speaker, we are just -- as you know, in the Act there are sections where the Lieutenant- Governor-in-Council may make regulations and we are just simply giving ourselves permission to make regulations that would conform with the national building codes that have been established in the country. Those that might be affected are the National Building Code, the National Fire Code of Canada and the National Fire Protection Association standards.

We would not be wanting to make any regulation-- and this is permissive-- that would cause a difficulty to the municipalities, as has been expressed by the Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks. So it's really just to clear up the present section. In the present

section we do have the ability to make regulations, but we are clarifying that we have the ability to make regulations with respect to the national codes that are developed from time to time. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. I I I .. I

March 26, 1969 755 MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 5. The Honourable the Minister of Labour. MR. WITNEY presented Bill No. 5,

an Act to amend The Vacations with Pay Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. WITNEY: Mr. Speaker, this is a Bill to amend the Vacations with Pay Act and it will result in two changes. At the present time, the Act requires notice to be given of a vacation but no specific period is mentioned, and in this Act we are simply putting in the prin ciple of a specific period, and in this case it is 15 days. This recommendat ion is one that la bour and management and the Woods Committee have recommended to the government and we have accepted it.

It also provides for the case for an employee who worked for an employer for a 12 month period, but does not qualify for vacation with pay, will be entitled by the amendment to four percent of their regular wages earned during the period. At present the Act provides that all employees are entitled after 12 months of continuous full time .empl�yment to a minimum of two weeks vacation with pay . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for As siniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (As siniboia): Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a few brief comments on this Bill No. 5,

an Act to Amend The Vacations with Pay Act. I agree with the two prin ciples embodied in this Bill No. 5, and the first one, the way I understand the present legis lation, is that every employer shall notify each of his employees who becomes entitled to a vacation with pay .and the .date on which he becomes entitled to his pay or his vacation, but he gets no notice. As far as the proposal in Bill No. 5 that every employer shall notify his em ployee and give him 15 days• notice when the vacation shall take place, I think it's a good amendment to the Bill.

I'm not so certain that the 15 days is sufficient, because I know that some of the present union agreements call for anywhere from 30 to 60 days. The second principle,

Section ll(a) , at the present time the way I understand the legis lation, an employee has to work 95 percent of the time in order to receive his vacation with pay, and in some instances people or workers get sick and they are not employed 95 percent of the time and are not entitled under the present legislation to any vacation with pay. This will change it that where an employee has been employed for 12 months and still does not work 95 percent of the time because of sickness, he will be entitled not to two weeks but to four percent, and I think this is a move in the right direction.

However, I was somewhat disappointed that the Minister did not take any action on my proposal that I made during his estimates, and that was with respect to three weeks holiday pay after five years of employment. I know that it has been pointed out that in many labour management agreements at the present time this is the case, where after five years the em ployees do get three weeks. This legislation at the present time does exist in many of the other provinces and I think it would be worthwhile to take a look in this field as well.

I know that some employees are leaving this area to work in other areas where better wages and better benefits can be obtained and there is a drain of more qualified people from this prov ince to other areas, and I think this legislation would probably be encouragement for people to stay in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Wellington, that the debate be adjourned, MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if you would be good enough, Sir, to call the re solution standing in the name of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture on Page 3 of the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed resolution of the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. HON. J. DOU GLAS WATT (Minister of Agriculture) (Arthur) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Attorney-General, that

WHEREAS the Special Committee of the Legislature on Sale and Use of Farm Machinery appointed on Saturday, the 25th day of May, 1968, reported to the Legislature on Tuesday, March 4th, 1969, and recommended that it be reconstituted with the same powers as set out in the resolution passed in the House on the 25th day of May, 1968 . AND

WHEREAS it is deemed expedient that the Assembly reconstitute the Special Com mittee of the House, consisting of 14 Members of the Legislature, to investigate and report on

756 March 26, 19 69 (MR. WATT cont'd) .. . all aspects of sale and use of farm machinery and repairs in Manitoba, with particular reference to adequacy of Provincial legislation, and examine the method by which machinery is designated for agricultural use and exempted from excise tax and duty under federal legislation with a view to making recommendations in this respect to the appropriate autho rities of the <k>vernment of Canada, and all aspects of legislation respecting artificial insemination of livestock in Manitoba as provided under The Animal Husbandry Act. AND

WHEREAS it is deemed expedient that the said Special Committee be reconstituted with the same powers as outlined in the resolution passed by the House on the 25th day of May, 1968. AND

WHEREAS Mr. McKellar replaced the late Mr . Shewman during recess. THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that a Special Committee of the Legislature consisting of Hon. Messrs. Enns, Watt, Messrs. Bjornson, Dawson, Dow, Einarson, Froese, Hamilton, Kawchuk, Klym, McGregor, McKellar, Uskiw and Vielfaure be reconstituted to investigate and report on all aspects of sale and use of farm machinery and repairs in Manitoba, with parti cular reference to adequacy of provincial legislation, and all aspects of legislation respecting artificial insemination of livestock in Manitoba as provided under The Animal Husbandry Act.

AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the said Special Committee of the House shall have power to sit during the present Session and in recess after prorogation to hear represen tations, and to report to this House on the matters referred to it at this Session or the next Session of the Legislature.

AND THAT the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the Consolidated Fund, to the members of the said Committee, the amount of expenses incurred by the members in attending the sittings of the Committee or expenses incurred by the members in the performan ces of duties ordered by the Committee in recess, after proro gation, as are approved by the Comptroller- General. AND THAT the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the Cons olidated Fund the statutory allowance to Mr.

McKellar for his attendance during the last recess and expenses incurred by him in the performance of his duties as a member of the Committee. AND THAT the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the Consolidated Fund all other expenses of a kind and nature required to assist the said Committee in carrying out the provisions of this resolution. His Honour the Lieutenant-<k>vernor recommends this resolution to the House. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. PAULL EY: Mr.

Speaker, I do not rise to oppose the resolution but I do want to point out something that seems to me which may be establishing a new precedent in this House; namely, that of a change in the personnel of a committee being done by other than the House. I note that in the resolution the terminology says that 11M r. McKellar replaced the late Mr. Shewman during recess", which tantamountly, to me at least, implies became a full member of the committee. As I said at the offset, Mr.

Speaker, I do not raise objections, but merely rise to point out that this in my opinion is a departure from past practice and I would like it understood that if a similar circumstance happens, as far as this group is concerned - and I don't know about my honourable friends to the right-- similar circumstances occur, that there be no question of doubt that the same treatment will be applied insofar as this group and our representatives are concerned . Again, Mr.

Speaker, I want to re-emphasize that I've no objections in essence to the resolution; I've no objections to my honour able friend the Member for Souris-Lansdowne being reimbursed for the expenses incurred by him during that time; but I do point out that unless someone else can inform me accordingly, I see no provision whatsoever in Beauchesne or any of the autho rities that I have checked into that makes it permissible for this action. With those few remarks, Mr. Speaker, as I say, no objection, but I want it understood the same will ap ply to this group under similar circumstances. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Speaker, was my honourable friend speaking on a point of order or on the resolution? -- (Interjection) -- On the resolution. Well then I will just say a few brief words because my honourable friend seemed to suggest that this was in fact setting a precedent, and Mr. Speaker, it isn't, because my honourable friend will know full well the Minister of Agriculture, back when the Hog Marketing Select Committee was established four or five years ago, the makeup of that committee changed, I guess, a half a dozen different times. It did. It did. Stan Roberts was on it and then resigned from the House, remember? I I •

March 26, 1969 757 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont• d) .... And I think that I took his place. And I think the Honourable Member fo r Turtl e Mountain was on that committee until the election, and he was def eated and someone took his place. -- (interjection )-- Pardon? And we all got paid. Yes, and it was most enjoyable. Not only the makeup of it was -- for the laok of a verb that I'm looking fo :r o:t: an adjective -- it was a wonderful committee and --(I nterj ection)-- No, there were only fiv e of us. And one of your men, the Leader of the NDP - Mr. Ed die Schreyer was on that and replaced someone I think. And Mr.

Moeller was on it and I think that he replaced someone that was originally on it. --(I nterj ectio n)-- Well, all I'm saying, Mr. Speaker, is that the makeup of the committee has changed several times and I'm just citing the Hog Marketing Commission as one that did. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. CAMPBE LL: Mr. Speaker, as the Honourable the Leader of the New Democ ratic Party has said, - he's not objecting to the procedure but he is wondering if we constitute a precedent that we might be faced with later on.

It seems to me that so long as we stay with the precedent that we• re establishing now, and that is that whatever action the committee takes is to be lat er conf irmed by the House, then it' s not any diffi cult precedent at all that we are establishing.

I take it that that is the reason that that portion of the resoluti�n is be fore us, that the committee recognized that it did not have, when the House was not in session , it did not have the power to actually add another member to the committee or replace a memb er who had deceased, and certainly it wouldn't have, under those circums tances, been right to pay him expenses. Consequently, we have the action before us now to sort of regularize what the committee did by agreement at that time. I see nothin g wrong with it under the circumst ances . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Hhineland. MR.

FROESE : Mr. Speaker, I rise not to dispute the matter that has been debated here up till now, I have one other item that I would like to bring to the attention of the House and this has to do with pricing, and when we look at the resolution it says, 11to investigate and report all aspects of sale. " To me, Mr. Speaker, this includes the matter of price, because once you discuss sales you discuss prices, and in committee this seemed to be a point of cont ention whether pricing was included.

I'm just rising to voice my opinion, that as far as I am concerned I understand this to include pricing, because I feel this is a very important point and one thing that the commi ttee certainly should investigate, because earlier in the session mention was made of machinery being bought in other countri es and brought into Canada at much much lower prices, and certainly I feel that this is an area that the commit tee should look into. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agricultu re. MR. WATT : I just want to say one word, Mr. Speaker.

I don't think the Honourable the Leader of the NDP Party got up to speak with the intent to provoke a debate on this, and I jus t point out that it has been mentioned that a precedent has been set, and this has been the case prior to this. I thought I should point out to the members of the House that I did contact the Leader of the Opposition and also the Leader of the NDP Party and we were in full agree ment to the appointment of Mr. McKellar, and my understanding was that he would have said "with the power to vote ." MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motio n carried. MR.

LYON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve its elf into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Souris- Lansdowne in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAffiMAN : Members of the Committee, we were on No. 2(b)(4) . (The balance of Resolution No . 73 was passed. ) No. 3.

Research Planning and Programming - (a)( l)- The Honourable Member from Churchill. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Chairman, there's a couple of question s I'd like to direct to the Minister. He was speaking yesterday about some mining claims in this area. I was wonder ing if the Minister could give us an indication of how many registered claims there is in this area, and if these claims are being dropped voluntarily or is the Minister going to be forced

758 March 26, 1969 (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd) ..•.. to expropriate them or pay them "X'' number of dollars per claim -that's South Indian Lake, North Indian Lake and Granville Lake, MR. ENNS: The claims that are in this area will be dealt with in the normal manner by the agency responsible for taking over the land, in this case the Manitoba Hydro agency, that is to say that any adjudication of claims is a matter between the claim holder and Manitoba �� I MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchlll. MR. BOROWSKI: Could the Minister answer a few other questions regarding this here area.

You were talking about minerals in the area and you said there was no objections raised from any companies about the flooding of this area. Is it not a fact that seve ral companies have been diamond drilling there in the last few years and their claims are all going to be flooded out ? Some of them in fact are considering, or are in consultation with your depart- ment about compensation for the money spent over the last four years rather than in consulta- • tion with Manitoba Hydro as you just suggested ? MR. ENNS: No, Mr.

Chairman, I am not aware of any particular claims such as the Honourable Member for Churchill is making. I am aware of course that there are some claims staked out in that area and these will be dealt with in the manner that I just described. There has been no offi cial repres entation made to my department or to me directly pe rtaining to the points that he raises. MR. BOROWSKI: Am I to understand then that there is a possibility from what you have said that you will have to bring expropriation against some of these people ? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I don't think it's a. matter of expropriation.

I would have to double-check the actual clauses relative to the claims and the manner in which they were made. The Honourable Member for Churchill is well aware that these claims are on provincially owned Crown land, and that whlle ce rtainly consideration has to be given to those individuals or the companies who have claims in this area, I again express my confid ence that this will be done in due course by the agency that is now requesting use of this particular unauthorized Crown land. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister indicated yesterday that up to this point there was --maybe I'm asking the question the wrong way, he's not getting the message that I'm trying to ask him. I think he indicated yesterday that there was no mine rals in the area. Now if there 's no minerals, why should there be two or three hundred claims staked there ?

He knows very well that if a claim is staked that it doesn't lapse after a year, and as long as the people who have the claims do a certain amount of work, like 35 feet of diamond drilling a year or some blasting or some excavation, these claims are in good standing for a number of years. In other words, the claims don't lapse. Now, why are these claims registered and the people holding on to them if it's true what the Minister said that there was no minerals there ? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, this goes back to something that I tried to explain to the honourable member some time ago, There are many thousands of claims registered with my department throughout the Province of Manitoba.

It's a great diff erence between a mineral claim, and indeed which may be well founded with respect to the actual minerals being there, but as to it being there in quantities and qualities that would attract any futu re development is a matter of conjecture and this is the diff erence between - I'm just trying to suggest to the honourable mem ber that there's a difference between a claim and an operating mine, or a potential for a fu ture operating a mine. This ir;; common knowledge among the mining communi ties and I know the Honourable Member for Churchill knows this very well too.

I should indicate to him that when I mentioned that there were no minerals in that area, that obviously is an assumption that I wouldn't be prepared to make. What I was infe rring was that, to date, no significant depos its of minerals have been located in that area that have induced the industries to date to establish a viable operating mine in and about this general area. That is not to say that there are no mine rals there. MR, BOROWSKI: Mr. Chairman, one more point. The Minister indicated yesterday that even if the lake is flooded, if minerals should be found that they could still mine this.

Now the Minister is aware that International Nickel issued a statement just the other day saying that the reason they're draining Thomp son Lake and are going to pollute the Burntwood River is because it was giving them difficulty by flood ing the mine. Now how can he tell us, in all honesty, that with 35 feet of wa ter over the lake that this mineral can be mined economically

March 26, 1969 759 (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd. ) .•••• when in Thompson there's only about 10 feet of water in this little - it's a swamp, it's not a lake, it's about a mlle long, and the company is spending a great deal of money to drain it because it's flooding the mine, Now how can you tell us that there is a possi bility that even if minerals are found that you could stUl mine them there? How can this be done ? MR . ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I was reporting to the Honourable Member for Churchill the kind of information that was ·given to me by those who have mo st invested in the mining industry and who are engaged in it every day. MR . CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland, MR . FROESE: Before we leave Resolution 73, could the Minister just tell us what constitutes surveying and at what point does the investigation start actually. We're spending half a mUlion dollars on investigation, we're also spending another $148, 000 on surveying, and in addition to that there's another $122, 000 slated for project studies.

Could he define for us the various stages ? MR . ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, in general terms - and I believe the question asked by the Honourable Member for Rhineland was a general question - as a Department of Mines and Natural Resources, in' our Mines Department we would like to have, and indeed are working towards that end, to have all pertinent information, all maps, surveys, investigations, a pre liminary type of knowledge of the son structure, of the rock structure, of the potential mineral bearing conditions that we have throughout our province, It's our intention to have this informa tion and we are going at it systematically to have this information in our records so that it can then in turn be available to any interested developer or any interested company that comes to us seeking this kind of general information upon which they then begin their own intensive development or exploratory work which leads to the development of mines.

It's not unsimllar to other branches of the government, su ch as for instance the Depart ment of Industry and Co mmerce, that attempts to have on its records or on its flles the kind of general information as to the avallabllity of labour, the general situation, the business situation in the province, the avallabllity of power and other things that are of a general nature that can be used as information abroad in other countries or indeed in attracting and bringing new in dustries or new developers into this province.

This is a matter of good housekeeping, I suppose I could describe it, in knowing at least a fairly knowledgeable - or having a general picture that is supported by actual field investigations, indeed with the use of modern survey equipment, modern geological equipment, that we can transcribe on to maps so that we know precis ely what our province looks like from a geological point of view, and this is being done on a continuous basis.

This is why I referred to the fact, for instance, that the studies under way at South Indian Lake would have occurred in their normal course of events over the next maybe 10 or 12 years or 15 years. What we're doing there is merely compressing them into a shorter period of time, but this is a purposeful program that we are engaged upon to event ually cover the entire parts of our province. MR. FROESE : Mr. Chairman, we have one mining industry, it's probably only a small one, south of Ste.

Agathe, probably closer to Union Point, I would like to know from the Mini ster how much money that we are approving here is being spent on southern Manitoba. I imagine very little, I think most of it is spent up north, but are there any prospects for continued development in the southern part? MR.

ENNS: Well again I can report to the Honourable Member from Rhineland that it's perhaps true that a greater portion of our activities are in northern Manitoba in the Pre Cambrian shield area where undoubtedly our greatest potential for mineral deposi t lies, but as I attempted to indicate to him in the opening remarks, we are certainly pleased that this is spreading to take in other regions of the area resulting in actual rights or reservations being taken in southeastern and in the southwestern part ·of the province for the first time in many years .

We attempt to have on record for instance such things as gypsum deposits or other kind of deposits. They're there for the information of any developer that may come along - and they do from time to time.

It's a service that we provide to the industry who then can take advantage of this pre-knowledge of our son structure here and our potential minerals that we have and can then, If they're looking for a particular thing - for instance, if we have people interested in development of gypsum deposits, we can direct them to specific areas in the pro vince where from our survey field investigation work we know that in all likelihood gypsum deposits exist. Now of course it remains up to the individual developer as to whether or not they

760 March 26, 1969 (MR. ENNS cont'd. ) ..••. exist in the quantities and in the qualities that would attract him to invest his money into an actual operating mine. But this is the kind of service that we attempt to render through these surveys and this field investigation work that we're do ing, And I think I can report to him, and hope to do, and I can maybe answer his question more specif ically that this is not done solely in the north but indeed that we would want this information made available to us for the entire province. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr.

Chairman, hasn't the Member for Churchill raised a valid point with respect to exploration in the area which is sc heduled to be flooded? If companies have gone into the area, and I'm not famil iar on what sc ale because I' m not that familiar with that particular area, but if a lot of exploration work has been done, don't these companies stand to lose a great deal of money if that nea is going to be flo oded, because I' m sure they wouldn't have gone into the area and done this work had they known that at some later date that all that area would be covered up by 35 feet of water? MR. CHAffiMAN: (a)(l)- MR.

GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, isn't he going to reply? MR. ENNS: Well, I think, Mr. Chairman, I should allow you to proceed because I have attempted to answer this question. I repeat once again, and I can refer to specific companies - !NCO, Sherritt Go rdon, Hudson's Bay -have been in that area for the past 20, 25, 30 years in diff erent degrees. I would like to throw back the question to the Honourable :Member for St. Geo rge. Wouldn't it be a correct assumption to make that they should perhaps be first in line in objecting to me or to this government fo r the proposed development of South Indian Lake?

And I have to report to you they aren't. MR. CHAffiMAN: (c)(l)-passed, MR . SHOEl\iAKER: Resolution 73 or 74? MR. CHAffiMAN: 74, (c)(

l) Conservation Extension, MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh yes. I notice under (c)(4) slightly over a quarter of a million dollars, This is a new program I take it since there was nothing in the appropriation last year. Has my honourable friend explained the new program here? And then on another one, I'll ask another question in respect to the lands and pastures. Does the leasing of Crown lands to farmers come under this department or under agriculture? . • . . . . . . . . continued on next page I • -

March 26, 1969 761 MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, t he added amount under (c)

(4) Forestry Training, some $250, 000, is the program that I referred to, the training program being undertaken at Moose Lake where we have some 25 to 30 men of that community undertaking a vigorous training program that hopefully will equip them to take advantage of the opportunities of the developments the Churchill Fo rest Industries provide in The Pas Area. This is a training program and the amount that you see there is made up of supplying the actual equipment, the power saws, mech anical skidders, and there is a training allowance payable to these men during the course of this course.

I'm happy to report to the Honourable Member from Gladstone that this appears to be enthusiastically received by the community and while pe rhaps it is too early to state with any conviction as to the long term results of the program I have every reason to believe that it will be a succes sful one. The other question that he asked: yes, the leasing of Crown lands to farmers or ranchers does come under the jurisd iction of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources under our Cr own Lands Branch Act. MR. CHAffiMAN: 2, 3, 4 passed; (c)- -passed. (d)-p assed ... . MR. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could elaborate a little more on the forestry training. I've had many enquiries in the constituency, being those especially close to the Duck Mountains. Could anybody qualify for that type of training regard less of whether they are a resident of my area or the north? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chai rman, the purpose of this specific program, and it is a pilot program, but it is there primarily to enable our native populations, that is the people of Indian and Metis origin that are in that area, and we selected specifically the Moose Lake group as one of the first areas to try this program on, because this is a community as you will recall that was partly affected by the Grand Rapids Power Development and the subs equent formation of Cedar Lake, so that a direct answer to your question is that at this time it is restricted to those residents of this particular community at Moose Lake.

I'm hopeful that this program will be expanded and I would seek the support of the honour able members in seei ng to it that I get the necessary funds to expand this program at some future date. But in es sence the philosophy behind the program is to do everything we can to insure that the native populations of the north will have every opportunity to partake in the, what I would have to des cribe as the exciting developments at The Pas with respect to Chunchill For est Industries .

This is not just a theoretical book learning course, these fellows are in the woods, they're cutting, contracted, I believe, for some 6, 000 cords of wood to be cut, Churchill Fo rest Industries is taking this lumber and we hope that this very practical work orientated course will enable these men to, upon completion of this course, which I think is of some six months duration, to move into as individually or as production units, to take advantage of the opport unities being afforded to them with the forestry developments at The Pas. MR. CAMPBELL : Mr.

Chairman, might I ask the Minister if the course will pay for itself? MR. ENNS : No, Mr. Ch airman. I think the honourable member foresees that there is obviously a subsidy element involved in a training course of this kind.

The lumber being purchased is being bought at the going price, so from that point of view we are not - we want to make the people involved in the program aware of the fact that they are or have to prepare themselves and bring their proficiency in production up to a level which will enable them to enter the competitive business of producing cord wood and there is no subsidy involved in there, but there are in the form of training allowances and part of their time is used in classroom work in the teaching and the maintenance of proper care and handling for the mechanical equipment that's being used in the industry these days, so that there is a degree of subsidy involved.

MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman would the Honourable the Minister place on record the numbers that are taking that course, to which this item applies, MR. ENNS: I believe the actual number is 27 - 25 to 30 . The class has been set up to handle between 25 and 30 men. My understanding is that there are some 27 pres ently enrolled in the course. MR. CAMPBELL : Then this will not be the only program to which this item applies ; 25 to 27 people will not involve a subs idy of $250, 000 will they? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman I don't have the precise breakdown. It is our intention to expand this program.

I should also point out that there are probably recover able amounts shown here in the sense that we expect, in fact I know that there is participation by the Fede ral Govern ment through their Manpower Training Corps program here and that I rather suspec t the greater

762 March 26, 1969 (MR. ENNS cont'd. ) .••.• part of this does involve itself to this particular pi lot program, but a good portion of that is in the allowable training allowances that are recoverable through the Manpower Tra ining Program that is available to us by the Federal Government. And of course there is also I should add to the fact that upon completion of the course there will be some 6, 000 cords of wood to be sold and I believe at a price of somewhere in the neighborhood of $17 a cord, or $16. 50 a cord, that that would indicate at a later date as a revenue accr uing back to this program.

But we are assu ming the full cost of the wages that are being paid to these men in this training program, and of cours e having to set up the program with the equipment and prov iding instructors the member can appreci ate it it a size able program and that probably accounts for this money here. MR. CAMP BELL : I can appreci ate that, Mr. Chairman, and there is nobody more appreciative than I of the fact that once you get a couple of governments involved in a program that they can spend a lot of money. I sure appreci ate that. And they can do it in the most ex pensive way that it could possi bly be done.

This applies to the Federal Government just as well as the provinci al one in my experience; but even at that, it seems to me that if this is 25 people - did I hear the Honourable Minister correctly - 25 to 27 people ? But that would be more than $10, 00 0 per person, and this is after taking into account that we are going to have 6, 000 cords of wood to dispose of. I would think - well there is no use in express ing my opinion, Mr.

Chairman, because when a couple of governments go into a thing like this , they seem to vie with one another as to who can think of the more expensive thing - but I would think that a program li ke this to be any use at all should carry itself. If they can't train people to cut wood at the prices that wood is now, and at least pay expenses out of it, I don't know what's the use of teaching them to cut wood. I wonder. MR. FROESE : Mr.

Chairman, I would li ke to ask the Honourable Minister whether this item that we are disc us sing now, whether that is not part and parcel of the whole agreement with Churchill Forest Industries, whereby they were to receive certain concessi ons. I think one of them referred to this very matter. And is this an item to come under that agreement, and are we obligated to continue this type of program for a certain number of years or what is the situation. Does this have any connection with the Church ill Forest Industries ? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, under the agreement the company will be involved in train ing programs of their own and we have every reason to believe they will . That does not absolve our own responsi bili ty of doing all we can to assist and aid in seeing to it that growing numbers of our citizens of northern Manitoba have an opportunity to take advantag e of this deve lopment up there. Also among the, if you want to call it, among the agreement, is the will ingness - I can't quote

chapter and verse - the willingness on the part of Churchill Forest Industries to work together with us in these kinds of pilot training proj ects where they are under obligation by agreement to accept the production from these training courses, at negotiated pri ces for the lumber. So I would suggest to the Honourable Member from Rhineland that this is not at all at vari ance with the agreements that we are working under with Churchill Forest Industries. MR. CHAffiMAN: (c)( 1)--pas sed; (2)--passed (d) • •••• MR. SHOEMAKER: On the lands ••• Mr. Chairman we are down to (b) (1) •.•• MR. CHAIRMAN: (e) 1. MR .

SHOEMAKE R: Yes, okay. Fi ne. MR. CAMPBE LL: I'm on (d) . MR. CHAffiMAN: You just passed that yourself. MR. CAMPBELL : Yes. You didn't pass it though, Mr. Chairman, because my honourabl e friend got on his feet to speak on it. I wanted to ask the Honourable the Minister about the ARDA program. This one we have $600, 000 odd, further over we have another $110, 000 and und er the FRED program $1, 000, 300. Could the Minister give us a report as to the - he can do it on any one of the items as far as I am concerned - as to the different reasons that they appear in two different places.

I can understand that the one und er water control and conservation would be segregated from the others but why can't the other two appear as jo int or similar items ? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the items that are li sted in my estimates here under Can ada Manitoba ARDA programs deal with the Canada Land Inventory program that we have been em barked on for the past two years I believe. It's a five year agreement. We may be into the third year of it. Which is essentially taking an inventory of all our lands and as sessi ng the different resource or best resource or land use to it.

I should point out to the Honourable Member that I I I • I 11

March 26, 1969 763 (MR. ENNS cont'd. ) .•••• particularly the item Inventory Programming in (d) (2) $500, 000, is a 100 percent Federal program which is being done through our department as part of an over- all Canada-wide inventory program. The Resource Project Studies, I'm attempting to find the specific items that that accounts for.

I would feel that it probably is along the lines of specific projects which the Department of Mines and Natural Resources is called upon to make studies and surveys available too, sometimes in conjunction with other departments: the establishment of Game or Wildlife Management Areas, there is considerable work being done studying the particular project problems in and around about his colleague the Honourable Member from Gladstone with respect to the kind of reclamation work that has to be done on the escarpment area and just what best use, whether it is reforestation or the returning to forage stands some of the marginal farm lands that cause erosion and soU problems in that particular area, I would suspect these are the kinds of projects covered under this part of the estimates.

MR. FROESE : Mr. Chairman, when we talk of inventory programming, do we also speak of acquiring land? Is land being bought up under this program? Or just what constitutes inventory under the item here? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman, in this particular item there is no allocation for actual land purchasing. My colleague the Honourable Minister of Agriculture has with the estim ates of his department, allocated amounts of money for actual land purchases.

These have been used to some extent in recent years pri marily for the repurchasing of flood prone lands particularly in some designated areas in and about Lake Winnipeg where serious habitual flood ing has been occurring and the rationale for the use of these ARDA funds for purchasi ng that land or bringing that land back under crown control has different reasons. The fact that this land is perhaps best utUized from a wetland wildlife point of view, securing more habitat for our duck population and other game, this is the rationale behind the purchase of land for this matter.

And at the same time, ass isting the farmer who is the unfortunate owner of these lands to help capitalize on the situation and either relocate or put him in a posi tion to purchase other lands that are not of this desc ription. MR. FROESE : Mr. Chairman, if and when lands are brought back under the Crown, who then has jurisd iction ? Since this is federal money, the way I understand it, does it come under the jurisdic tion then of the federal authorities, as Crown lands, or does the provincial govern ment stUl have jurisdic tion ?

And could he give us more of an itemized list of how the 500, 00 0 wUl actually be spent. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the assumption that this is federal money is not quite correct. The 100 percent federal money is relative only as it applies to the Canada Land Inventory Program. Other ARDA programs or projects, the same as the FRED projects, which is an extension of the same, vary.

It can be 90 - 10 for some programs; 50 - 50 for others ; 37 1/2 - 63 1/2 - there are different cost-sharing arrangements that have been worked out, In the case of land acquis ition, I would suspect that it possi bly is in the 50-50 area and there is no question as to the jurisdic tion of the lands that are being reclaimed in this manner going to any other source other than the Provincial Crown Lands Department. More specifically, in some of the programs that we're talking about in the $500, 000, there are any number of project areas that are under intense review.

The pri ority was placed, for instance, in the Interlake area, where all our lands were inventoried, theywere classi fied andwe are now in a posi tion to make policy decis ions as to that land use.

In other words, we have satisfied ourselves as a result of this Canada Land Inventory Program in the Interlake that we know that we can say with some conviction that there are so many acres that can be used for arable land and they have been identified on maps; there are so many acres left, or so many in these areas should be set aside for future wildlife purposes, and we are in fapt bringing decis ions forward to create these wildlife management areas; other choice recreational areas are identified by means of this program.

The next area that is receiving attention is in the western part of the province in and about the Riding Mountain National Park, the escarpm ent areas, and so forth. In other words, you know, we couldn't just tackle the whole province at once, so we're looking at those areas where we already know we have acute land use problems to begin with and we're attempting to get the answers to them first so we can deal with it so that while this comprehensive plan and this comprehensive inventory is being gathered we haven't got our hands tied, you lmow, preventing us from doing anything.

But we do want to know as much information that our soU sci entists, our wildlife people, our biologists, so forth, can gi ve us about any given area. This is ta bulated; again maps, not unsimUar to the same kind of program that the honourable member

764 March 26, 19 69 (MR. ENNS cont'd. ) •...• just asked me about a little while ago, with respect to mining investi gations, mining surveys, only in this case we're talking of course more about the actual soil and the surface of the land, MR. SHOEMAKE R: Are we not down to ..• MR . CHAffiMAN: No, I'll pass that first ... MR. SHOEM AKE R: Well then I'll talk about (

d) for a little while. I'm not particular, I'm confused, Mr. Chairman, not particular, but confused, that's what I said, and I'm almost afraid to ask my honourable friend a question because I'm afraid that he will take a half an hour to answer it, We used to have a lot of trouble with Mr. Hutton, you remember, Mr. Chairman, We were nearly afraid to ask him a question because we could expect a full hour answer, - (Interject ion) --le cture, it was, yes. Now, Mr.

Chairman, two or three times this afternoon my honourable friend has indicated, or inferred, that there was a program envisaged for the es carpment of the Ri ding Mountain. Well, I'm glad to hear that. I see him nodding in the affirmative. I don't hear him nodding but I see him nodding in the affirmative, So I' m glad to hear that. Now the question is, does the land clearing come under this department or the Minister of Agricul tur e? - (L'lterje ction) - The Minister of Agric ulture ? Well , I thought it had to do with ARDA, it was a grant under ARDA.

So I'm not allowed then to talk about the application that farmers can make for land clearing -that comes under the Department of Agriculture ? Ri ght. I'll put that back in that file then. But the iss uing of hay and grazing permi ts to farmers comes under Mines and Natural Reso urces -Is that right ? Well, you can underst and, Mr. Chairman, how difficult it is for we folk over here to determi ne under what department we should be disc ussing these things. --(Interj ection) - Pardon ?

Yes, well it keeps a fellow guessing, But I would like my honour able friend to tell us then the basis on v;hich the fees are to be established for grazing and hay permits for the year 1969, Mr.

Hutton always said that he had a formula based on the price of cattle between the period May 1 and October 31 of the pr evious year, and I re call asking him one time how he accounted for the lower price of cattle because the fees were down slightly the next year by virtue of the fact that cattle prices were down, and I've got his answer written on this propaganda sheet before me, dated January 15 , 1965, And this is a quote that Hutton made, He said: "The answer is si mple -overproduction of cattle, " That's what Hutton said, Now, I know my honourable friend wouldn't agree with that statement in this day and age that there was an overproduction of livestoc k and I don't expect him to comment on that, but wh at I do expect him to comment on is what formula is he pres ently using to determ ine hay and grazi ng fees, the fee for permits for hay and grazing land?

That's (1) ; and (2) , I understand that Crown land is be ing released for sale in quite large acreage now and the person who has had that land leased has the first option of purchasing the land; I believe this is right. Now, how is the value of the land arrived at ? By negotiation, or who sets the value of the Crown land ? - (Interjec tio n) --No, I want to get the two answers, (1) the formula used 'for the fee, and (2) the formula used in establishing the value of the Crown land that is to be sold, That's a pretty impo rtant thing. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, my reluctance in arising was only that I thought maybe I was taking the opportunity to speak too often --or too long. The last question's first -the manner and way in which we arrive at the price for Cr own land be ing sold is established through our Land Utiliz ation Board, which is a Board that attempts to take into account the type of land, the class ification of the land. I correct him just slightly on a statement that he made that the holder of a lease automa tically recei ves the first option to purchase - yes, this is true pe rhaps in most instances.

There is another factor that we attempt to be guided by and that is when this in fact is helping that person to establish a sounder economic farm unit, so that if the holder of the lease is not in a posi tion, or where the ownership of this land would not enhance or put him in this pos ition, that may preclude us from selling that land to him for that purpose. In fact we may want to sell it to a neighbour to whom the addition of that land would make his unit a better operation, if he expressed an interest in it.

The matter of the lease, or how we arrive at the fees charged for the leas ing of lands, again I have to begin by referring back to the inventory and the classification of land. We have our grazing and hay lands classified in about three or four class ifications, Class 1, 2, 3 and 4. This is arrived at on the productivi ty of the land, the capacity of the land to carry cattle, The -

March 26, 1969 765 (MR. ENNS cont.' d. ) ••••• formula used is a .combination of the productivity of the land, in other words, if it's Class !l and, plus the average of the last six. months' prices of cattle at the St. Boniface Stock Yards, and this relative to the amount of head that a particular quarter

section can carry, according to our classification, establishes the fee. This means essentially that your fee is a fluctuating one; if cattle prices are strong, the philosophy behind the fee structure is that the farmer or rancher is in a better position to pay somewhat more for his land, conver sely if the cattle prices drop, that that drop in the market is reflected in his price that he pays for the land, or the fee that he pays for the lease of the land. I think I have attempted to answer most of the questions put to me by the Honourable Member for Gladstone.

I'm sure he will remind me of any others that I forgot. MR. SHOEMAKE R: I wonder if my honourable friend could tell the committee the relation ship between the selling price of Crown land and the assessed value because we find in the real estate business that there's a definite relationship. Well, if there is no relationship then there's no purpose of assessing anything at all, but what is the relationship at the moment between the selling price of Crown land and the assessed value of it. MR. ENNS: Well, I would definitely think there is a relationship.

The Land Utilization Board looks at it I think broadly to,again, the productivity of the land, the going market value of land such as this. I don't think that we attempt to be real estate speculators in that we look upon the sale of these lands from quite the point of view that perhaps a private real estate. company would in the sense of getting all we caJi for it. I think we would like to satisfy ourselves that we are getting a reasonable price for it and one that is consistent with what the general value of the land is in a given area.

We have, I think, as a general guideline accepted a few principles or policies within the branch. I believe we are generally guided by a minimum price of $10. 00 an acre for raw land, undeveloped Cr own land, and that that forms somewhat of a floor price and then any other attractions to that land would be added on top of that. This is of course when we establish, the price. A good deal of the land is sold on the open tender system, and where we usually reserve a bid price or a low price for ourselves, we of course have no control over or have no

part in the setting of the price that is sold in this manner. That is, if two or three farmers are actively interested in a particular parcel of land and we choose to put it on a tender system, then obviously as my friend indicated, ·the market or the value that the rancher or farmer wishes to. attach to the land sets the price of this particular parcel of land to be sold. MR. CHAmMAN: (b)( l)-- passed. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not being critical of the method in which they are disposing of Crown land, but I simply would be interested for my own information only; for no one else is interested in it, the number of acres of Crown land sold last year; the assessed value of those number of acres, the selling price. And then it's a very simple matter for me, without a computer, to figure out the average assessment per acre. and I'll do my calculating from then on in.

But if my honourable friend would undertake to give me that information, I don't care whether he gives it to the House or not, it would be very interesting and useful for me. MR. CHAmMAN: Could that arrangement be met, Mr. Minister? (e)( l)- passed; (2)--passed; (3)- passed. (e)- passed. ( (f)(

l) to (5)- passed) (g)(l) passed; (2)--passed. (3) ••• The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. GUTTORMSON: For some years now I have been attempting to encourage the govern ment to consider establishing canning factories to make use of a lot of the rough fish which is going to waste in Manitoba. I have a story here which appeared in the Winnipeg Tribune on May 21, 1965, and it reads: "Premier Duff Roblin today announced the creation of a plant to can Manitoba fresh water fish.

It is the first such venture in the province and located in Winnipeg the plant ultimately will turn out 25 to 30 thousand cans a day, the Pr emier said. " And the story goes on to outline this plant which was announced by the Premier. Has this plant ever been built? And if so, where ? Could the Minister inform us ? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of the particular plant that the Honourable Mem ber for St. George refers to.

I might suggest to him that it may be a question, although I accept the interest that I have in the subject matter, that it may be a subject more suitably brought up through my colleague, the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce, who seems to have some jurisdiction over the development of new industries and the encouragement of industries in this province.

766 March 26, 1969 MR. GUTTORMSON: I didn't hear the first part of his remarks, Did he say he had no knowledge of such a plant? Did he clarify that for me? MR. ENNS: That is right, Mr. Chairman, I don't have knowledge of the plant. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has indicated that the legislation for a fresh water fish marketing board will be implemented or become effective on May 1st, and I understand that under this Act fisherm en will be able to obtain loans for their operation. Is this correct?

Can he tell me at what interest the fishe rmen will be charged on the money they borrow and will the money be provided by the Federal Government or the Provincial Government or will it be provided by both governments? MR. CHAffiMAN: •.••• answering this type of question under your Bill dealing with fish marketing boards ? MR. ENNS: I was going to suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that perhaps the honourable member is anticipating legislation, I have informed the House that it's my intention to bring this legis lation down or have it appear the latter part of this week perhaps and we would be going into the whole question at that time. MR. GUTTORMSON: If the Minister wishes to leave it until the bill comes down I will be happy to. Can the Minister indicate what steps are being taken though with respec t to the situation with rough fish? Is the Department taking any steps to try to find ways for the fishermen to dispose of this product? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I must admit that I don't have all the information relevant to the situation of rough fish. I'm aware of course of past effo rts undertaken by my department, as well as the department of Industry and Commerce, I believe. We've attempted diff erent projects in this area. I would have to agree with the Honourable Member for St. George it's one that certainly should receive further attention and I would take it upon my self to inform the Honourable Member for St. George as to any further progress in this matter, MR.

GUTTORMSON: A number of years ago, there was a policy whereby individuals could apply for what I believe is generally known as a settler's permit, I believe this is a license to fish on Lake Manitoba. I think the cost is $1. 00. Is this policy still in effect? MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Chairman I would like to direct a question to the Minister. This fish plant that we're just talking about, which the Honourable Member for St. George brought up - is this the same fish plant that was promised to Thompson during the '66 provincial election by Mr. Roblin, and could he tell us more about it? MR.

CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK (Burrows): I just wish to make a couple of comments about the bulletin fo r commerci al fish ermen that was distributed to us in this House not too long ago. Ju dging by the title of it, I would presume that it's for that group as indicated, for commercial fi sher men; I would also presume that it would contain material of inf ormation about what's going on in the fishi ng industry elsewhere and also research information and technical advice for the benefit of the fis hermen.

In other words, what I'm saying is that in this bulletin I would hope that a fisherman could find some material, some infor mation that would ass ist him in the con duct of his business. And having said that, Mr.

Chairman, I would hope that the Minister would just spruce this magazine up a bit, I looked through it and with the exception of the insert, the yellow page in sert, Marketing Board, which gives the Act, the Fe deral Act, and also presumes that it is going to be passed, although it says that it hasn't been passed by the Federal Government yet, but it may be, but on the assumption it will be, we are giving this inf ormation to you. This of course is informative to the fishermen. But I have some reservations about the rest of the material in there. The first article: "No Sauger in Mossy Bay.

" Well that I suppose is a valuable research item and som ething with which the fish ermen should be acquainted with. The next one: "Osp wagan La ke Study" - I' m not quite sure - I read that

article and re-read it a couple of times -b ut I'm not quite sure just what it is that the author is attempting to say. Is this project worthwhil e or is it not? Maybe it isn't, because I notice that the total yearly earn ing for five men employed in this fishery amounted to $4, 000, which doesn't sOtmd like very much money if that were - depending on how much of their time it took up. Or "T rout by the Ton, " which is an experiment initiated sometime now I take it, or not too long ago, and which may materialize in 1980, that is, raising trout, but I note that there is I I • - ..

March 26, 1969 767 (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd. ) ••••• some doubt as to just how profitabl e this wlll be because on the next page this

article reads "The problem stm· exists and most of these are in the area of harvest; How to get the fish out of the water, That is the question, " In other words, if ways and means aren't fol.ind then this will not be of any great value either.

And then "All for the Sake of Quality" - describing the means of inspecting fish, and on the se cond page appears a photograph showing an inspector, I take it he's a federal inspector, but these feder al inspectors are obviously working here with the blessings of the Provincial Government and the Provincial Government obviously is accepting their services and· recog niz ing the fact that in their opinion they are doing a worthwhile job, And here's a photograph and the caption beneath it reads "That even with all their fancy gadgets inspection off icers still use the simplest test of all - they smell the fish".

Now surely, Mr. Chairman, it doesn't take an elaborate publication such as this to tell commercial fishermen that the way to test the fish is to smell it. Or to tell the commercial fishermen, as the closing paragraph does, that once a fish has lost quality there is no way to bring the fish back to its original condition. Now is this the research that the department is doing and are these the findings of the Minist er's Research Department - that once a fish rots there is no way of bringing it back? Now surely, Mr.

Chairman, if this is to be a publication for commerci al fishermen, something of a somewhat slightly diff erent nature and perhaps a better quality could be published. MR . CHAffiMAN: (Sections (

g) and (

h) were read and passed. ) Research and Programm ing two million •..• MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (Carlllon) : Sorry, Mr. Chairman, I didn't get past (4). I'll be brief though, Pardon me ? on (4) (3) - Pardon me (h) (3), Not very often is .too much said about mink in this House and I see by the report that quite a few of the producers are in trouble and perhaps not the kind of trouble that I have had in parts of my constituency, in one case where a party lost nearly 1, 200 mink, through botulism that is, and perhaps the Minister: is aware of this.

I have been trying to see him on this and I will again after his estimates are over, but there seems to be other problems in regard to the raising of the mink. I understand that the ranches now or the licensed fur farms are down to 143 in Manitoba, which is down quite a bit, and of course our breeding mink have been going down very fast from 96 some odd thousand to 83, 00(\ a decrease of about 14 percent, and all in all I think - this happens to be on page 24- all in all I think things have been rough, the price has been lower than normal the last couple of years.

I do think though that this experimental fur farm, the tests they are doing now, is perhaps in the right direction of catching up with some of the profits that the ranchers are losing. I was very interested to read - that is on page 24 also - to improve corelatlon lf any between diets and fur growth, skin samples and so on, that something was being done about this, and I am just wondering lf the Minister can made any short report or commit himself on some of the work that's being done or make a comment.

I think he is aware that while our mink ranchers are going down, it is still quite an impo rtant industry to the few that operate these farms, and perhaps a comment wouldn't hurt. MR . ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I start with the last member who spoke. I am, of course. aware of the difficulties that some individuals in the mink farming business have had this past year.

I might point out to the honourable member that I have felt that because this department may not always be in the best position to provide the kind of service that some of our mink farmers are requesting from us, that it would be advisable, and I know it meets with the consent of the mink far mers, to be transfe rred to the Department of Agriculture and this is being done. Unfortunately it wasn't done in time for the estimate s.

I think the honourable member also understands that mink, not unl ike wheat or any other natural product, has this problem, the vagaries of the market, and there are certain things that are above and beyond the control of governments as to account for decline or increase - a g,ood deal of it is in the hands of what the current market situation is in mink and the demand for mink throughout the world.

I agree with him that our efforts nonetheless should be extended very much in the area of making sure that Manitoba produced mink is of the highest quality and competitive anywhere in the world, so that that market that is available to us should at all times be available to us. I'll go back while I'm on my feet and answer a few questions, Mr. Chairman, with your permiss ion, realizing that we are past the specific items, that the Honourable Member for St. George rose. The settler's permi t that he refers to is what we call a domestic permit for

768 March 26, 1969 (MR. ENNS cont'd. ) •.•.. $1. 00. It's still in effect. There's no change planned. I would have to dig that up. I could undertake to give him that answe r. Further questions raised by the Honourable Member for Churchill - no we are not. And the Honourable Member for St. George, we are not - we have reconsidered our position with respect to the fish plant, we do not intend to build a fish plant.

I would think that perhaps I would take the advice of the Honourable Member for Lakeside when he suggests that should the government in fact buil d a fish plant it may indeed become an expensive venture, and this is properly left in the domain of private enterprise. I know my honourable gentlemen over there won't agree with me, but that is an answer to the question asked.

On the matter that was raised by the Honourable Member for Burrows, I must admit that I perhaps was anticipating that que stion or that particular little debate or commentary of remarks for some time si nce assuming the Department of Mines and Natural Resources. It would appear that it creates considerable delight for the honourable members opposite to take out of context a particular bulletin or to find a particu lar paragraph that is particularly appeal ing. I have never really regarded fish or wildlife in that light but I'm of course happy that it amuses them.

I would suggest to him though that he acquaint himself with, and indeed if he reads the annual report of the department more thoroughly, of the very extensive extension program that is being carried on by the department. I mention one significant feature alone, a radio broadcast that is beamed to our fishermen that makes our fishermen aware of the current prices, a practice which I might suggest that wasn't always appreciated by members of the industry who felt that it might be to their advantage if fishermen were ignorant on the lakes and did not know of the current prices and the price situation.

This is a very practi cal kind of service that the department offers plus a consider able degree of printed material , as well as actual part-time instructors on the lakes in improving the fishermen's lot. Thank you. MR. CHAffiMAN: (h) (l )- passed; (2)-- passed; (3) --passed (4) ..•. MR . McKENZIE : Mr. Chairman under 74 (h)

(4) Predator Control and Research. Reports have it that in parts of Asia they're attempting to cross the polar bear with the black bear from the southern part of the - I unders tand from this report that the cross will possibly cause the black bear to move from its natural habitat farther north. I was wondering if the Minister could get me that information. MR. ENNS: I recognize that the Honourable Member for Roblin has a problem and would li ke to see some of his bears move a littl e further north.

I suggest to him that that north country isn't always all that hospitable as rve found out and I have nothing specific to report to him on the mat ter. MR. FROESE : When we are on predator control, I just wonder is the government giving ' conside ration to also killing off some of the many skunks that are on our highways ? I feel that this is quite a problem and when we are inviting tourists and wanting tourists to come to Mani toba whether we shouldn't do something in this connection. MR.

GUTTORMSON: Could the Minister indicate to the House, is there any predator that the governm ent pays a bounty on at the present time ? MR. ENNS: Mr. Cha irman, just generally on the predator control programs that we have, and let me say just a very brief word that it's when we allow things to get out of balance either intensive hunting of the coyote or other thing s that of course usually brings on a problem in another area.

For this reason from a policy point of view we take the attitude where we attempt to stay away from indiscrim inate extermination programs of any particular species of game because practice has shown that while it may overcome a short term problem for a specific area, it usually raises others. The question asked by the Honourable Member for St. Rose. Our main efforts directed with respect to predator control are arrangements entered into with municipal authorities whereby we make available to the munici palities the services of our conservation officers to look after indiv idual complaints on a fee basis.

This fee is sometimes passed on to the complainant but very often in most paJ rts of the province carried or shared jo intly by the munici pality and the province. We have, as members should be aware, in 165 passed a law elim inating all bounty payments by the province and vesti ng all of the predator control responsibility in this department. The Act also allows municipal ities to institute their own bounties if they wish.

So the question if there are bounties around, to my knowledge there are some municipal ities that have specific bounties in specific instances, but as a province, or as a department, we do not have any bounties at this time. I

March 26, 1969 MR. GUTTORMSON: A few years ago when the timber wolf menace was plaguing the Interlake the government had what they called a wolf hunter named Joe Zimmerman. Is he still employed for this purpose ? MR. ENNS: I'd have to take that question as notice, Mr. Chairman. 769 MR. CHAffiMAN: (Resolutions 74 and 75 were read and passed). No. 6, Water Control and Conservation (a)(l )--passed. ... The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, you're on 6(a)(l ) . ••• MR. CHAffiMAN: Water Control and Conse rvation. MR. GUTTORMSON: Yes.

The other evening I raised the matter of the flooding problems in the Fairford area, and there were indications from previous Ministers that a structure and facilities would be built downstream from the Fairford Dam to ease the problem which has been plaguing the people up in that area for, particularly in the last two or three years.

As I pointed out to the Minister earlier, when the Fairford Dam is opened up there's no way that the river downstream can handle the water and, as he knows from his experience as the Minister of Agriculture and the present department, a large number of farmers are flooded, which resulted in the department finding themselves in the pos ition of having to compensate for the damage. Are there any plans this year to build a structure on the Dauphin River to rectify the situation which has been causing the people in that area a lot of trouble ? MR.

CHAffiMAN: I wonder if •••• a slight error here on No. 5, Acquisition of Land, Land Development Projects, Natural Resources Projects Including Mining and Recreational Projects, $489, 307, Resolution No. 76-passed. Now, okay then, Mr. Minister? The Honour able Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE : Mr. Chairman, if I may, before the Minister gets up to reply. I notice there's 50, 000 slated for the Manitoba Water Commissi on. Could we have an explanation from the Minister just what projects are be ing slated, if any, or what is the money being spent on.

Then, in general under Water Control and Conser vation, could we have an outline of the pro gram, the work that will be done this year ? I note there is monies under the various items ; perhaps he could give us first a general outline of the program. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, in reply to the Honourable Member for St. George, continu ing investigations are taking place. The Honourable Member for St.

George, in referring to the structure that he has referred to, this structure was a structure that was planned to enhance the fishing potential of that area and of course, as he is well aware of and I am well aware of, at the moment that probably isn't of first priority in that area, it's a matter of solving the water that subsequently floods the farm lands in that area that is perhaps of greater urgency. We have no firm plans in this coming

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-3-32
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 3rd hansardpdf 32.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6de7e82da34dad67835875257b5c7cc9db0ca55c

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