Manitoba Hansard — 14 April 2004 (Sitting 20, 38th Legislature, 2nd Session)

38-2-20

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LV No. 20 – 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, April 14, 2004

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

841 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, April 14, 2004 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Minimum Sitting Days for Legislative Assembly Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legisla- tive Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Legislature sat for only 37 days in 2003. Manitobans– [interjection] It is a very sensitive issue for good reason, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Lamoureux: Manitobans expect their Govern- ment to be accountable, and the number of sitting days has a direct impact on the issue of public accountability. Manitobans expect their elected officials to be provided the opportunity to be able to hold the Government accountable. The Legislative Assembly provides the best forum for all MLAs to debate and ask questions of the Government, and it is critical that all MLAs be provided the time needed in order for them to cover constituent and party duties.

Establishing a minimum number of sitting days could prevent the government of the day from limiting the rights of opposition members from being able to ask questions. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Mani- toba to consider recognizing the need to sit for a minimum of 80 days in any given calendar year. Signed by Barb Hilderman, Robert Hilderman and Elizabeth Chipilski. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House.

COMMITTEE REPORTS Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs Third Report Mr. Daryl Reid (Chairperson): I wish to present the Third Report of the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs presents the following as its Third Report. Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Your committee met on the following occasions in Room 255 of the Legislative Building. November 13, 2003, at 2 p.m. April 6, 2004, at 10 a.m.

Matters under Consideration: Bill 6–The Cross-Border Policing Act/Loi sur les services de police interterritoriaux Bill 17–The Domestic Violence and Stalking Pre- vention, Protection and Compensation Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la violence familiale et la protection, la prévention et l'indemnisation en matière de harcèlement criminel Bill 18–The Improved Enforcement of Support Payments (Various Acts Amended) Act/Loi visant à faciliter la perception des paiements alimentaires modification de diverses dispositions législatives) ( The Report and Recommendations of the Judicial Compensation Committee dated March 12, 2003 Committee Membership: During the April 6, 2004, meeting your committee elected Ms. Brick as the Vice-Chairperson.

842 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 Substitutions made, by leave, during committee pro- ceedings on November 13, 2003: Ms. Korzeniowski for Mr. Dewar Hon. Mr. Selinger for Hon. Mr. Bjornson Mrs. Taillieu for Mr. Tweed Mr. Goertzen for Mrs. Mitchelson Substitutions made, by leave, during committee pro- ceedings on April 6, 2004: Mr. Martindale for Hon. Mr. Doer Mr. Faurschou for Mr. Penner Mr. Hawranik for Mrs. Taillieu Mr. Reimer for Mr. Murray Hon. Mr. Selinger for Mr. Aglugub Motions: Your committee agreed to the following motion: THAT the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs adopt the proposal outlined in

Schedule A and recommend the same to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

SCHEDULE A 1. That effective April 1, 2002, salaries for Provincial Court Judges be increased to $152,000 per annum ($5,826.66 bi-weekly); that effective April 1, 2003, salaries be increased to $156,560 per annum ($6,001.46 bi-weekly); and that effective April 1, 2004, salaries be further increased to $161,257 per annum ($6,181.51 bi- weekly). 2.

That effective April 1, 2002, salaries for Associate Chief Judges be increased to $157,000 per annum ($6,018.32 bi-weekly); that effective April 1, 2003 salaries be increased to $161,560 per annum ($6,193.12 bi-weekly); and that effective April 1, 2004 salaries be further increased to $166,257 per annum ($6,373.17 bi- weekly). 3.

That effective April 1, 2002, the salary for the Chief Judge be increased to $162,000 per annum ($6,209.99 bi-weekly); that effecttive April 1, 2003 that salary be increased to $166,560 per annum ($6,384.79 bi-weekly); and that effective April 1, 2004 that salary be further increased to $171,257 per annum ($6,564.84 bi-weekly). 4. That effective April 1, 2002, the current 2.61% pension plan accrual rate for Judges be increased to 3.0% to allow a full pension after 23.5 years. 5.

That the life insurance plan for Judges be amended to provide for a reduction in coverage beginning at age 66 rather than the current age 56. 6. That vision care plan for Judges be established which will provide coverage up to a maximum of $200.00 each 24 month period. 7. That the current maximum $200.00 per year prescription drug coverage for Judges under the Extended Health Benefits Plan be elim- inated (Judges pay premium). 8. That the Extended Health Benefits Plan for Judges be amended to provide coverage for hearing aids up to a maximum of $1,000 every 5 years (Judges pay premium). 9.

That all Judges be entitled to 30 days vacation calculated on the basis of two and one-half (2½) days per complete month of judicial service per vacation year. 10. That all newly appointed Judges have an advance of 85 days sick leave on their appointment and that the credits continue but will be eroded until fully erased. 11. That an allowance of $1,500 per Judge to be paid on the approval of the Chief Judge in accordance with guidelines to be developed similar to those presently in use in the Province's of Saskatchewan and Ontario. 12.

That the Province pay 75% of the Judges legal costs and fees for the Judicial Com- pensation Committee process, up to a maxi- mum aggregate payment by the Province of $30,000.00. 13. That unless otherwise stated, all changes shall be effective on the date of approval by the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 843 Public Presentations: By leave, your committee heard one presentation on the Report and Recommendations of the Judicial Compensation Committee from the following organi- zation at the November 13, 2003 meeting: Susan Dawes, Provincial Judges Association of Manitoba Written Submissions: Your committee received one written submission on Bill 18–The Improved Enforcement of Support Pay- ments (Various Acts Amended) Act/Loi visant à faciliter la perception des paiements alimentaires (modification de diverses dispositions législatives), from the following organization: Paul Griffin, Canadian Bankers Association Reports Considered: Your committee has completed consideration of the Report and Recommendations of the Judicial Com- pensation Committee dated March 12, 2003.

Bills Considered and Reported: Bill 6–The Cross-Border Policing Act/Loi sur les services de police interterritoriaux Your committee agreed to report this bill without amendment. Bill 17–The Domestic Violence and Stalking Pre- vention, Protection and Compensation Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la violence familiale et la protection, la prévention et l'indemnisation en matière de harcèlement criminel Your committee agreed to report this bill without amendment. Bill 18–The Improved Enforcement of Support Pay- ments (Various Acts Amended) Act/Loi visant à faciliter la perception des paiements alimentaires (modification de diverses dispositions législatives) Your committee agreed to report this bill without amendment. Mr. Reid: I move, seconded by the honourable Member for St. Norbert (Ms. Brick), that the report of the committee be received. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] * (13:35) MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flood Conditions Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- ship): I rise to update the House on recent flooding in southeast Manitoba and the Interlake. I would also like to table, which I already have, the report on flooding in southern Manitoba which provides an update on that. A heavy rain event on the weekend of March 27 set a new record level fo r a March rainstorm in Manitoba and caused flash flooding on small water- ways and farms in southeast Manitoba.

Ice blockages gave way later that week and water levels in ditches and drains began to recede but not before many communities experienced significant road damage and some residential flooding. This same weather event contributed to ice jam flooding on the Red River north of Selkirk, as well as flooding on the Fisher River in the Interlake where over 1000 people were forced to evacuate their homes. I am pleased to report that the flood risk has now declined. Water levels are receding, and no further flooding is expected this spring with normal weather conditions.

In response to this event, the Department of Water Stewardship provided regular and ongoing flood forecasts to help local officials plan their emergency response. Manitoba Emergency Measures Organization, as the provincial government's agency responsible for co-ordinating emergency activities, maintained close contact with all affected com- munities to provide assistance and information in support of their efforts. As part of the recovery from this event, Mani- toba EMO is working with municipalities to assess their damages and to consider the possibility of a disaster financial assistance program.

An announce- ment will be made on a program once we have been able to determine the extent of damages that are eligible under the DFA guidelines. I would like to briefly congratulate and thank the people who worked to ensure the safety of the public

844 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 during this event. Munici pal employees and emer- gency co-ordinators invested a great deal of time and effort in developing em ergency plans for their communities, and the value of that investment was shown in their response to these floods. I also wish to extend our Government's appreci- ation to the first responders in the municipal fire departments who have been working to protect their communities from flooding.

Particularly, I would like to congratulate the Manitoba Association of Native Firefighters for their work in evacuating a large number of people from the First Nations com- munities of Peguis, Fisher River and Dakota Plains. Once again, we have seen why Manitobans have such a great trust and respect for our first responders. As people return to their homes, it is important to re-enter in a safe ma nner. Properly cleaning up after a flood requires special steps, and Manitoba EMO has made this information available at municipal offices throughout the province.

For further information, I woul d direct members of the public interested to the Internet site that is set up to do that. Once again, thank you for this opportunity to update members of the House on the flood situation. Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): It is a pleasure to be able to respond to the statement just provided by the minister.

I also want to echo my thanks to all the workers who have d one a great job within government but certainly in the municipalities; first responders who are there not just to respond to the difficult situation that we had with flooding this spring throughout the province, but every day they are there to respond to emergencies. We appreciate the work that they do. The fire department, the volunteer firefighters, the part-time firefighters, the full-time firefighters, we think that they are all equal and they all do a great job in this province every day. We hope the Government recognizes that equality.

I want to also pay note to the individuals who are affected by the flood. All members of this House, and all members on this side of the House in partic- ular, want to extend our condolences for difficulties they have gone through. We hope that the Govern- ment will put in the appropriate plans and the appropriate measures to ensure that they will be able to be compensated and they get the support they need in this difficult time. I do appreciate the updates that the department has provided.

If I had any disappointment with the ministerial statement today, it is that it was not to announce that they will be backing off the forced unionization of floodway workers. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask permission to speak to the member's statement. I ask leave. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted. * (13:40) Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I would thank the minister for his statement with regard to the recent flood event.

I, too, would like to acknowledge the hard work that many put in to deal with the high water levels in particular areas. I would also like to comment on three particular areas north of the city of Winnipeg and north of Selkirk. I visited there March 28 and talked to quite a number of the local people.

They are very concerned that the timing of the opening of the floodway coinciding with when the ice jam was occurring gave rise to what were pretty record levels of water in that area, levels that some people said threatened them in a way that floods had not threatened their property going as far back as something like 1849 in one case. So I think that deserves a careful look and a better evaluation than we have seen to date.

The second point that I would like to make is that this event provided a look at the functioning of the Seine River outlet, the modified outlet, and raised some real concerns that if the flood had gone much higher, there would have b een back flow and real problems in that area and I think the minister needs to look into that carefully.

The third point I would like to make because I have, not recently but over time, visited people in Peguis on a number of o ccasions, and I know they have a long-run interest in the possibility of a diver- sion, a long-run solution, and I would hope the Government would have a look at that.

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 845 INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 34–The University of Winnipeg Amendment Act Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Training): I move, seconded by the Minister of Education, Citizenship and Youth (Mr. Bjornson), that Bill 34, The University of Winnipeg Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'Uni- versité de Winnipeg, be now read a first time. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Advanced Education and Training, seconded by the honourable Minister of Education, Citizenship and Youth, that Bill 34, The University of Winnipeg Amendment Act, be now read a first time. Ms. McGifford: Today, Mr.

Speaker, I am intro- ducing an amendment to The University of Winnipeg Act that will separate disciplinary powers over students so that the senate will have internal disciplinary jurisdiction in academic matters, and the board of regents will have internal disciplinary jurisdiction in non-academic matters. This amendment will bring The University of Winnipeg Act in sync with the acts of our other public universities. I recommend the bill to all members of the House. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us Mr. Doug Dobrowolsky, who is a councillor of the R.M. of Macdonald and who is also the guest of the honourable Member for Morris (Mrs. Taillieu). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Provincial Deficit Justification Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): In last year's Budget, the Premier ensured Manitobans that money was set aside for emergencies, including forest fires and the drought.

On February 26 of this year, he announced that his Government had approved a $100-million special warrant to deal with emerge ncies such as forest fires and a drought. Then, one month later, Mr. Speaker, on March 26, he announced that due to pressures and emer- gencies, such as forest fi res and a drought, he was going to invoke a never-before-used clause to allow him to legally run a deficit by adding another $75 million to the provincial debt. Mr.

Speaker, even after the 1997 flood of the century, a time when the Progressive Conservative government at that time was dealing with massive cutbacks in federal transfer payments, emergencies were paid for and the Budget was balanced. How then can this Premier possibly justify running a deficit? * (13:45) Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): The member will recall the sale of the Manitoba Telephone System which allowed the Government, for three or four years, to balance the budget. I might point out, Mr. Speaker– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Doer: – that subsequently allowed for a draw in the '98-99 fiscal year and the '99-2000 fiscal year of some $185 million out of that proceeds from the sale of the Manitoba Telephone System. Mr. Speaker, the member opposite has said that he supports balanced budget legislation. The member opposite has said that the Filmon government bal- anced budget legislation is the toughest in Canada, and we are following it. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I know we have a lot of pent- up energy here today, but we have a long session so let us conserve some of that energy.

I would like the co-operation of all honourable members, please. It is really difficult to hear the questions and the answers. When a member asks a question, in order to craft their supplementary question, they need to be able to

846 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 hear the answer. So I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, only members on that side of the House, when they realize that their expenditures exceed their revenues, would stand up and applaud. That is the kind of government that we have. We all know, and Manitobans are aware, that this Premier has increased spending by more than $1.3 billion. He has nearly depleted the rainy day fund. He has increased the user fees and taxes. He has taken over $200 million out of Manitoba Hydro.

He is inappropriately us ing Workers Compensation to fund health infrastructure. Now he is invoking a never-before-used special clause in balanced budget legislation that allows him to legally run a deficit and add $75 million to the debt. The Premier clearly does not have a revenue problem. This Premier has a spending habit. Despite all of the Premier's rhetoric, all that spending has not made Manitoba competitive. It has not fixed health care, and he has not provided a much-needed cash advance to our cattle producers in Manitoba. Why, Mr.

Speaker, is the Premier failing to make the decisions necessary to improve services and balance the Budget? Why is he failing to make the right decisions? Mr. Doer: The largest income tax cuts that have taken place in the history of the province have taken place under this Government, under this Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger). The largest investment in health care and health care capital is taking place under this Government. We are building a modern health care system. We are following through on our promises to build the Brandon General Hospital.

We are following through on our promises to end the fruit flies in the emergency wards of the Health Sciences Centre by building state-of-the-art emergency wards in that area of the province. * (13:50) Mr. Speaker, the budgeted amount when we came into office from the ' 99-2000 Budget for the rainy day fund was $275 million. I believe it is down to $100 million now. The hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars put into that fund basically had been spent by the Conservatives before we came into office.

I would ask the member opposite: Who made the statement that balanced the rigorous requirements for annual balances of spending and revenues but recognizes the vagaries of government finance– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: – by providing for the continuation of a Fiscal Stabilization Fund and permitting the balanced budget requirements to be overridden in emergency circumstances? Who said that? It was Eric Stefanson, the former Minister of Finance, under the Conserva- tive government. Mr. Murray: Mr.

Speaker, it is very, very clear to Manitobans that this Premier's spending habit has finally caught up to him. He could have made the responsible decisions and ensured that the Budget was going to be balanced, but he failed to do so. After nearly five years, it finally revealed his true colours. During the 1990s, when that man was the Leader of the Opposition, he basically called the balanced budget legislation brought in by the previous Conservative government, he called it silly and a pre-election ploy. An Honourable Member: Who said that? Mr. Murray: That was what he said. Mr.

Speaker, why does the Premier not just admit that balanced budget legislation was his pre- election ploy, because he knew that if he could convince Manitobans in the business community that somehow he believed in a balanced budget, it might bring him one step closer to the Premier's chair? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, let us deal with the facts. The third-quarter report included two features, one of which the member opposite has raised, the $74-million emergency payments that are consistent with the balanced budget legislation. Secondly, the third-quarter report confirms that we are making a $96-million debt payment.

That means in terms of the operations of government we are spending less than we are taking in. In fact, even with the emergency measures, we are exceeding the zero situa tion and have in essence a surplus which we are using to pay down debt. I

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 847 might point out we are paying down the pension liability which members opposite did not pay down one cent in 11 years. We are doing it on this side of the Government. Mr. Speaker, just this week, RBC in its provincial outlook predicted Manitoba would have the highest growth rate in Canada. It went on to say that the Province of Manitoba has managed to weather a variety of shocks fairly well: negative effects of the appreciated currency coupled with the effects of BSE, limited real growth in 2003 by 2.1 percent, but we expect a rebound in 2004 and 2005.

This province has weathered, and this Government has weathered, those conditions fairly well. Those are the comments, not on this side, but by an independent review of the financial situation in Manitoba. We are balanced. We are paying down debt, and we are coming out of this with very positive outlooks into the future. * (13:55) Provincial Deficit Justification Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the Premier (Mr. Doer) that he get a second briefing on that third-quarter report.

What it states clearly is to make that $96-million payment the Government is taking $142 million out of the rainy day fund, and it is not recognizing $75 million in expenditures. What it actually shows is that the Government is going to run a $116-million operating deficit, spending $116 million more than is coming in.

I would ask the Minister of Finance to explain to Manitobans why he could not live up to his promise from last year's Budget to conduct a thorough depart- ment-by-department review of expenses so that he could ensure and live up to promises that the Premier made and he made that this year's Budget would be balanced. Why could he not live up to that promise? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, we certainly have lived up to that promise. The most important statistic in response to the member's question is our per capita cost for public services is the third-lowest in the country. Mr. Loewen: Mr.

Speaker, it is a fairly straight- forward question, and I would remind the minister that we also have the highest per capita debt. Maybe he would like to do something about that. The real problem, Mr. Speaker, is that this Government cannot control its spending. This year's Budget will not only see the Government overspend their Estimates by $150 million, it is going to see an increase in spending of $450 million over last year. That is a 6.6% increase. Mr. Speaker, I would ask the minister why he cannot get his Cabinet colleagues to control their spending. Why can he not live up to his promises?

Why can he not stick to the Budget he wrote? Mr. Selinger: First of all, Mr. Speaker, the member is just simply wrong on the facts when he says we have the highest per capita debt. He is just dead wrong, absolutely wrong. Any independent review of the stats will show that. In terms of spending, we have the third-lowest per capita spending in the country. The balanced budget legislation prudently put in a clause which allowed for extraordinary circum- stances.

The members opposite the last time we were in this House were up every day on their feet saying what an extraordinary situation the BSE crisis was in this province. They were yowling about what we had to do to respond to the mad cow crisis, and we responded in an appropriate fashion. I have another important fact that I will put on the record after the next question. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I am looking forward to the minister actually putting some facts on the record that are accurate and respond to the question.

The numbers are there fo r him to read in the third-quarter projections: Expenditures, $7.4 billion; revenue, $7.291 million; a deficit of $116 million. The question is straightforward. Manitobans deserve a straightforward answer from this irresponsible minister. The question is: Why is the Government running a $116-million operating deficit? Why can the Doer government not learn to live within its means and run a balanced budget? Give us a simple answer.

848 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 Mr. Selinger: The member opposite seems to confuse loudness with accuracy. The fact I wanted to pu t on the record is that they seemed to make a big deal out of the fact that when the '97 flood occurred, they did not have to take this clause in the balanced budget legislation into account. What they do not remind people of is that they had a disaster financial assistance reimbursement from the fede ral government for that year when they had a $200-million expense. They received $168 million back from the federal government.

We had a $74-million disaster assistance payment this year and our reimbursement from the federal government is zero. Red River Floodway Expansion Master Labour Agreement Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, there has been a lot of flip-flopping on the side of the Doer government in response to the floodway expansion issue. In early March they said that one of the conditions of the project is that all workers be unionized. Then they turned around and said "no decisions have been made.

Everything is on the table." Then, yesterday, the minister told the media, not the stakeholders who he had just been meeting with, Mr. Speaker, mind you, he told the media that, while the issue of forced unionization was still on the table, all workers would be required to pay union dues. Then, by early afternoon, the Government spokesperson started to back-pedal for the minister saying that the minister was only speculating on what could happen. Will this Premier clear the air and tell us if he is considering forcing companies and businesses who work on the floodway to join a union and/or pay union dues?

Is he going to do it? * (14:00) Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- ship): Mr. Speaker, I think it is really important to put on the record the challenge we are going to have ahead in terms of building the floodway, which is going to be one of the largest construction projects in Manitoba in this decade, something that is badly needed in terms of flood protection.

What we have set in place is a process–in fact, we had a meeting this Monday–that will bring together many of the concerns that have been raised, some of which the member opposite referred to, and we will deal with issues related to developing a project labour agree- ment, in terms of tendering and in terms of training. This member constantly gets up, Mr. Speaker, and he is the one who has been putting on the record all sorts of incorrect information. He put on record in the House that a master labour agreement ensures that non-unionized companies will not be able to bid on the project.

We have indicated very clearly that is not the case. We have a process, and Wally Fox- Decent will deal with that. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I hope that members on the other side of the House agree that this is a very important project for Manitoba. We think that it should proceed. We are absolutely opposed to forcing non-unionized companies to be members of the union or we are absolutely opposed to forcing non-unionized workers to simply pay union dues. That is what this issue is about. I would hope that the Premier (Mr.

Doer) of the province of Manitoba would have the ability to answer my question and stand and clear the air for all Manitobans. Mr. Speaker, it is the workers, not government, who decide if they are part of a union. Heavy construction in Manitoba is almost entirely non- unionized. Those workers have made a decision not to be part of a union. The issue of forced unionization and forcing non-unionized workers to pay union dues should be off the table and not even up for discussion, but it is under this Premier. I would ask this Premier how can he even justify considering any of these things. How can he do it? Mr.

Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate to the member opposite that, when you see the exposure on a yearly basis of between $75 and $100 million every year that we look at this when we do not have this floodway expansion, we need to ensure stability in terms of the life of the project. We have looked at the experience with Manitoba Hydro, which for the last 40 years has had this type of agreement in place, and with the Limestone Dam, for example, also had agreements in terms of training and in terms of tendering. That is what we have committed to. We want to see no strike, no lock-out.

We want to see this built on time for Manitobans, and we have a process with Wally Fox-Decent that we believe brings all issues to the table and will result in that

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 849 kind of delivery for the province of Manitoba. Delivery of the project, that is the most important issue there. Mr. Murray: Well, again, and I want to come back to this because the Doer government clearly has so many issues on this floodway that the public are having a hard time understanding. That minister clearly said that forced unionization is still on the table. Basically, he then went on to say that he would ensure that those workers would have to pay union dues. Then they sent out a spokesperson the same day to say, well, that is only speculation.

Now we have, astonishingly, yesterday on CJOB, one of the Premier's spokespeople, Mr. Rob Hilliard, say that unionized workers are more skilled. Is that not interesting? Is it not fascinating, Mr. Speaker? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting that one of the Premier's spokespeople, Mr. Rob Hilliard, said that unionized workers were more skilled than non-unionized workers. I want to ask the Premier, and I hope he will stand and answer this question: Does he support Mr. Hilliard's views? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): There are a lot of issues ahead of us on the fl oodway as we prepare to build the next stage. The first issue we had to deal with was negotiations with the federal government, which we were able to achieve a $240-million first phase appropriation. That, Mr. Speaker, will mean that we go from one in ninety years protection to one in two hundred and seventy year protection. That will deal with the flood levels of 1827. The second issue that we had to deal with was the issue of should we ha ve two separate processes for environmental assessments.

It took us about six months to negotiate with the federal government to get, Mr. Speaker, a comprehensive joint environ- mental assessment. Mr. Gilroy was actively involved in that process. The next phase is how do we ensure that we have on time and on budget with the $75-million liability, Mr. Speaker. We have, just like– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. You know, I am not even sitting very far from the person that has the floor, and I can hardly hear him. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. We need to be able to hear all the questions and all the answers.

If there is a breach of a rule, I am sure each and every one of you would expect me, and rightfully so, to make a ruling, but I need to be able to hear the person that has the floor. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Doer: On the issue of dealing with the workforce, Wally Fox-Decent has been asked to deal with it, just like Cam McLean, by the way, dealt with it in the late sixties. Dealing with the Hydro projects, Mr. Speaker, to make sure that when the Hydro projects were plagued in the early sixties with disputes, they used Cam McLean. We are using Wally Fox-Decent.

We have allocated 1 percent for recreation, Mr. Speaker, to make sure that we will have recreation as part of it. We are dealing with the aquifers in northeast Winnipeg that look to be vulnerable. We are looking at legislation that we are bringing in. This is a multi-facetted approach. The member opposite can stand up and say the sky is falling. The project will be done. It will be done on time, and it will be done on budget, and it will be done by this Government. Red River Floodway Expansion Master Labour Agreement Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr.

Speaker, earlier this week in the Winnipeg Free Press , one union official stated that he had never seen a worker who did not like having a collective agreement and paying union dues for it. Mr. Speaker, these types of statements are an insult to all Manitobans who have made a choice to work in a non-unionized environment, and they are a direct result of the Minister of Water Stewardship's refusal to confirm the democratic choice workers have made in their own individual workplaces. Can the Minister of Water Stewardship indicate, Mr.

Speaker, if this is the type of advice that he took when putting on the table forced unionization of floodway workers, and does he agree with that statement?

850 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- ship): Mr. Speaker, we have stated very clearly there is a huge challenge ahead. We have a training challenge. That is part of the discussions that are taking place right now headed by Wally Fox-Decent. We have a huge challenge in having the right number of workers available, and that is one of the key challenges. We are also looking, Mr. Speaker, at issues relating to the tendering process.

No decisions have been made in terms of that to ensure that we see it built efficiently and on time and also to reflect the need for Manitoban content. The project labour agreement, Mr. Speaker, is also part of the Wally Fox-Decent discussions. That is ongoing. We have many stakeholders at the table, and I think that is the way to proceed. We want to see this project go ahead. The members opposite can get back to their dated rhetoric, but we are going to build this project, and our commitment is to build it on time and on budget. * (14:10) Mr. Goertzen: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the minister did not want to back away from that last ridiculous statement, so let us try another one. Yesterday, on Winnipeg radio, another union official stated that he believed that workers who were unionized were more skilled employees than those who were non- unionized. Mr. Speaker, this is an insult to the hundreds and thousands of non-unionized workers in Manitoba. It is a direct result of this Minister of Water Steward- ship's refusal to recognize the value and the ability of the vast majority of construction workers in the province of Manitoba.

Can the Minister of Water Stewardship indicate if this is the type of advice that he took in putting on the bargaining table the issue of forced unionization, forced labour dues, and is he going to stand by that statement? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite can engage, as his Leader did, in the kind of exaggerated rhetoric we have seen, the kind of attacks on unions, et cetera. We have all stakeholders at the table: contractors, unions, First Nations people, women. We have many people who are looking to this as one of the greatest opportunities for this province over the next decade.

It will include many Manitobans. They should get out of the kind of polarized rhetoric we have seen in the last couple of months and do what we are doing, which is focussing on the future. That is why we had the Wally Fox-Decent process. We are bringing together all the stakeholders. We are going to build this floodway. That is the most important job. Mr. Goertzen: Mr. Speaker, this minister is trying to rob Manitobans of what would be a good oppor- tunity. But attacks on the ability and the value of the majority of non-unionized construction workers is an insult to these employees and those who employ them.

It breeds a dark climate of business in our province and for the democratic choice of all workers in Manitoba. I want to ask the minister, because it is not too late, if he will respect the rights of workers, if he will stand up for construction labourers, and if he will take off the table any plan that would force workers to unionize or force them to pay union dues. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, let us restate. This is a very important project for the people of this province. It provides up to 700 years of protection for people in the city of Winnipeg.

It provides improved flood protection for people in a good part of the Red River Valley, and it is going to be a huge challenge. It is going to be one of the largest construction projects in this decade. In looking at the experience of those kinds of projects, one of the reasons we have chosen this route is because we have had a process in place with Manitoba Hydro for 40 years, going back to the Duff Roblin government. Based on that experience and the experience of many other jurisdictions, we have put in place this process.

We have brought in one of the most respected Manitobans, one of the most competent people to work with the stakeholde rs, Wally Fox-Decent. We are committed to moving ahead on the floodway. That is the real issue. Red River Floodway Expansion Master Labour Agreement Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, the Water Stewardship Minister is on the record as saying the forced unionization of the floodway is a done deal, or maybe not. Government appointee Ernie Gilroy has said it is a done deal, or maybe not. The Minister of Labour

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 851 (Ms. Allan) has no opinion, and today the Premier (Mr. Doer) stated that some have their hands on the horn when it comes to the forced unionization of the floodway. When will he do the right thing and take a hands-on approach to steering the floodway away from forced unionization? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- ship): I am amazed, Mr. Speaker, that this is about the tenth or eleventh question. Not one question about what the project is going to do, the bottom line here, which is improve flood protection for Manitobans.

We have used the floodway since the vision of probably the last Conservative in this province that had any kind of vision, Duff Roblin. We have used it on average virtually every second year. It saved about $8 billion. One of the reasons we have chosen the route that we have chosen in terms of the floodway, following the experience of Mani- toba Hydro, we cannot afford to lose even one construction season with so much at stake. That is the real issue here, and I wish members opposite would commit to the real issue which is building the floodway itself. Mr.

Schuler: Meanwhile, back to the issue, the conflicting message coming out of the Doer govern- ment is harmful to labour relations in Manitoba and it is harming Manitoba's reputation. When will the Doer government take control of the mess created around the forced unionization of the floodway, and take the forced unionization issue off the table? Mr. Ashton: Again, Mr. Speaker, the members opposite put on the floor of this Legislature the same kind of dated rhetoric that we have seen from them the last period of time.

What we are looking at in terms of the floodway is a very similar process to what has been in place for nearly 40 years with Manitoba Hydro. We are working right now with the stakeholders. I made it very clear that Wally Fox- Decent, a very well-respected Manitoban, I think, has the confidence of the stakeholders involved with this process and that is where the details will be determined in terms of the project labour agreement in terms of the tendering issues and in terms of training and education. Let there be no doubt. They can continue with the kind of exaggerated rhetoric we are seeing.

We are committed to using the best experience of Manitoba in the last 40 years and other jurisdictions to build this floodway. That is why we have chosen this course. Mr. Schuler: How long, Mr. Speaker, will it take the Doer government to come to its senses and end this bitter and unnecessary government-induced division between labour and business in Manitoba? Pull it off the table. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, only those members can get up in Question Period and make various shots at various union leaders in the province and then talk about having some concern about harmony after- wards.

They have no consistency whatsoever. That question has no credibility. Red River Floodway Expansion Master Labour Agreement Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): All we have heard from that side is about how important this issue is and we agree with that. It is an important issue. But what they are trying to do is they are trying to hide behind the real facts. The real facts and what the public is interested in, Mr. Speaker, is let us get on with building this. Why, Mr. Speaker, does the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr.

Ashton) one day say that forcing non-unionized workers to pay union dues is on, only to have a spokesperson from his office say, no, he is only speculating? Then we have a union leader, one of the Premier's spokespersons, coming out and talk- ing about how important this is that non-unionized people pay union dues. In all of this, the Premier of the province is silent. Clear up the issue. Do the right thing. Take the forcing of non-unionized companies and the forcing of people who are not part of the union to pay union dues off the table and let us get on with building the project. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the member opposite will know that many of the points that he has repeated over and over again have been answered in previous que stions. In the previous session we have cited examples in Ontario; we have cited examples in the private sector; we have cited examples here in Manitoba. I would note that Cam McLean was involved, a person who I have a lot of respect for was involved in the late sixties. I would note that Wally Fox-Decent is involved today. Let us

852 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 let the experts do their job, and I expect they will do it well. Mr. Murray: In all of these discussions, the buck stops at the Premier's door, absolutely. This issue is clearly about one of democracy and not forcing non- unionized companies to be a member of a union or forcing hardworking Manitobans who do not pay union dues to simply force them for some reason to pay union dues. Take it off the table. Let us get on with building this project. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite thinks perhaps one minute or two minutes or a day ahead.

This Government has to think one year, two years, three years, four years ahead, and that is why we are spending time and effort to get it right at the front end so we do not have disruptions two years down the road affecting the quality of life and the safety of Manitobans. We are going to get it right, and we are not going to rush to get it right. We are going to get it right with all the stakeholders. * (14:20) Mr. Murray: This is simply astonishing. This Doer government cannot even think from one hour to the next hour on this issue.

It is clearly stated in here that the Minister of Water Stewardship stands up and says, absolutely, forced unionization is on the table. Absolutely, workers on this that do not pay union dues will have to pay union dues. Then they send out a government spinner that says that actually, just to come to think of it, the minister was only speculating. Apparently he does not know. The Premier is the person that ultimately makes the decisions for the province of Manitoba. Rather than talking about Mr.

Fox-Decen t, who, I think, is a wonderful Manitoban, and other people, why does not this First Minister, the Premier of the province of Manitoba–we all agree in this House that the important thing is to get on with building this floodway project. But the industry is asking for fairness and democracy. They do not want to be forced to be unionized. They do not want their workers to be forced to pay union dues. Take it off the table, Premier. Do it today and let us get on with building this floodway. Mr.

Doer: Well, I think it is important the member opposite has recognized finally that Wally Fox- Decent has a lot of knowledg e, a lot of experience, a lot of credibility, and let us let the experts do their job. I want to assure members opposite we will be utilizing engineers to do some of the engineering work. We will be utilizing people involved in training and the skills a nd apprenticeships to deal with the skills, the apprenticeships of training. We will be using people that are skilled in labour- management relations to deal with the labour- management relations.

We, on this side of the House, want to hire credible people to do jobs. They are going to do jobs. The member opposite talks about the word "ultimately." I have a great deal of respect for the credibility of Wally Fox- Decent. Mr. Speaker, I am glad the members opposite have finally agreed that we have the right person. Let the right person get the job done. Quarterly Financial Report Expenditure Estimates Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): March 26, the Finance Minister's shocking third-quarter report predicted the first deficit in years. Careful reading also exposes a big credibil ity gap.

On page 7, the minister shows actual operating expenditures at the end of the third quarter were $95 million less than predicted in the Budget last year. At the same time, on page 13, he provides a projection. It is when end-of-the-year operating expenditures will be $152 million more than budgeted. In total this is a $246-million, almost a quarter of a billion dollar, credibility gap. Either the minister plans a big spending spree in the last quarter, or he is deliberately providing a misleading high-expenditure estimate so that he can put the real– Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): The answer is neither. He just does not understand the quarterly financial statement. The report after the third quarter gives actuals. The projection to the end of the year takes into account all costs, including flows of money that occur in the last quarter. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, the Finance Minister in essence is saying a credibility gap of almost a quarter of a billion dollars is normal. Liberals disagree. Calculation of the credibility gap in 2001 showed it was only $36 million by the same calculations. By 2002, the Minister of Finance's credibility gap had

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 853 widened to $108 million and this year the credibility gap is a whopping $246 million. Trust in the Minister of Finance is evap orating as his credibility gap goes larger. I ask the Minister of Finance why he would produce a third-quarter report with such a large credibility gap. Will his Budget on Monday also have a big credibility gap? Mr. Selinger: Once again, the member does not understand, and it is stated actually very clearly in the press release.

The biggest and the most signifi- cant change from the second- to the third-quarter report was a drop of $140 million to $143 million in equalization. The member should have taken that into account. If he would have taken that into account he would have understood why revenues are quite flat and actually showing a slight decline. As for Monday's Budget, it will be a balanced budget. It will be a budget for all Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: Order. Time for Or al Questions has expired. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave to give my second supplementary question. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to put his second supplementary question? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Yes, or no? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been denied. Time for Oral Questions has expired, and I have a ruling for the House. Order. Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: Following Oral Questions on Tues- day, March 9, 2004, the honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler) rose on a matter of privilege to advise the House of comments made in the hallway by the honourable Minister of Labour and Immigration (Ms. Allan) concerning the honour- able Member for Springfield.

He concluded his remarks by moving: THAT this matter be now referred to the Committee on Legislative Affairs and be reported in this House. The honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh), the Official Opposition House Leader (Mr. Derkach), the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson), the Deputy Government House Leader (Mr. Ashton), the Member for Minnedosa (Mrs. Rowat), the Member for Morris (Mrs. Taillieu), the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) and the Member for Ste. Rose (M r. Cummings) also offered advice to the Chair on this matter.

I took the matter under advisement in order to consult the procedural authorities. There are two conditions that must be satisfied in order for the matter raised to be ruled in order as a prima facie case of privilege. First, was the issue raised at the earliest opportunity; second, has suf- ficient evidence been provided to demonstrate that the privileges of the Hous e have been breached, in order to warrant putting the matter to the House. The honourable Member for Springfield asserted that he did raise the matter at the earliest opportunity, and I do accept the word of the honourable member.

Regarding the second condition, whether suf- ficient evidence has been provided to demonstrate that the privileges of the House have been breached, Beauchesne Citation 31(1) advises that statements made outside of the House by a member may not be used as the basis for a ques tion of privilege. Marleau and Montpetit on page 522 of House of Commons Practice and Procedure state that the Speaker has no authority to rule on statements made outside of the House by one member against another. Rulings from Manitoba speakers support these findings from the procedural authorities.

It has been ruled a number of times by Manitoba speakers that comments made outside the Assembly Chamber cannot form the basis for a prima facie case of privilege. Speaker Walding ruled so in 1983, while Speaker Phillips made similar rulings in 1986 and 1987. Speaker Rocan ruled six times, between 1988 and 1995, that statements made outside the House cannot form the basis of privilege while Speaker Dacquay also ruled the same way in 1995. On the basis of commentary from the procedural authorities and from rulings of previous Manitoba

854 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 speakers, I must therefore respectfully rule that there is no prima facie case of privilege. * * * Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on two points. One being that– * (14:30) Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sorry, but a ruling of the Speaker cannot be debated. An Honourable Member: It is not being debated. Mr. Speaker: Order. The ruling of a Speaker cannot be debated. The only option that members have is to challenge the ruling of the Chair. That is the only option members have. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, I certainly respect your ruling, and I understand that my only option is to challenge the ruling, but the basis on which I challenge the ruling is the fact that, first of all, the issue was not identified in your ruling. It is with that serious matter that I have to challenge your ruling. Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. All those in support of the ruling say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed to the ruling say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Formal Vote Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Yeas and Nays. Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote having been requested, call in the members. The question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained. Division A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Aglugub, Allan, Altemeyer, Ashton, Bjornson, Brick, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Irvin-Ross, Jennissen, Jha, Korzeniowski, Lathlin, Lemieux, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, Melnick, Mihychuk, Nevakshonoff, Oswald, Reid, Robinson, Rondeau, Sale, Santos, Schellenberg, Selinger, Smith, Struthers, Wowchuk.

Nays Cummings, Derkach, Driedger, Dyck, Eichler, Goertzen, Hawranik, Lamour eux, Loewen, Maguire, Mitchelson, Murray, Penner, Reimer, Schuler, Stefanson, Taillieu. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Yeas 32, Nays 17. Mr. Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been sustained. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I want to put on record that the ruling as you have put it before this House is certainly one that I do not have any argument with. Your ruling, in my view, was correct. However, Mr.

Speaker, I want it also to be known that the reason we, as an opposition, asked for a vote on this motion was not to be simply obstruct- tionist but, more importantly, this was an issue that had certain personal grievances to the member from Springfield. Indeed, this matter could be put to rest had the Minister of Labour (Ms. Allan) just simply apologized. I think the integrity of this entire House then would be intact and would be far more appro- priate in terms of dealing with future issues. This has nothing to do with personal attack on a minister in any way.

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 855 Mr. Speaker: The honourable member does not have a point of order. A point of order is to point out to the Speaker a breach of a rule. Points of order, we all know, should not be used for debating an issue. Also, I mentioned earlier just for the information of all honourable members, Speaker's rulings are not to be debated or to be reflected on. The option that members have is to challenge the ruling and we had done that. That is just in formation for the future for all honourable members. * (15:20) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Selkirk Steelers Mr.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise today to congratulate the Selkirk Steelers on recently winni ng the Manitoba Junior Hockey League Championship. The Selkirk Steelers defeated the tough Portage Terrier team 4-1 last Sunday in Portage to sweep the series four games to zero. This win ends a 17-year drought for the team and for their loyal, long-suffering fans. I might add, there are a few members in this Chamber that also supported the Steelers. The last time they won the championship was in 1987.

I want to congratulate the players, the coaches, the management of not only the Steelers but of the entire Manitoba Junior Hockey League. This league has brought exciting, entertain- ing hockey to communities throughout the province, in fact, to many smaller communities in the province. Mr. Speaker, we as MLAs always support our local teams, as do our communities as they compete for provincial honours. But once they achieve those honours, they now become Manitoba's team. The Selkirk Steelers are Manitoba's team.

I know that all of us in this Chamber will wish them the best of luck as they pursue the national championship of junior hockey, the Royal Bank Cup. Town of Morden Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to recognize the success of the town of Morden. In its March issue, Harrowsmith County Life magazine named Morden one of Canada's top 10 rural communities. Harrowsmith noted a number of attractive features about Morden such as how the town has preserved its Victorian heritage in its buildings and homes, the diverse economy and the overall quaint scenery of the town.

I quote: Morden remains the quintessential rural town and a centre for local farmers. With a population of 6500, it is undoubtedly the people who make the town of Morden what it is, working hard to keep the com- munity a wonderful place to live, work and raise a family, participate in sporting and other activities and, of course, Morden is a lovely place to visit as well. The mayor of Morden, John Wiens, was delighted to hear of Morden's national recognition and was more than pleased to have such a glowing review of the town he so proudly represents.

I would also like to take this opportunity to acknowledge two Manitoba towns that have been on Harrowsmith's list in previous years, Dauphin and Neepawa. There are many communities in Manitoba that deserve our recognition since rural communities are an essential component to the success of our fine province. I am proud to represent the town of Morden in this Assembly and it is a privilege for me today to acknowledge the efforts of those people who have made Morden the wonderful place it is.

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to extend our most sincere congratulations to the town of Morden on their recognition in the Harrowsmith Country Life magazine. In the future, I look forward to seeing many more Manitoba towns in Harrowsmith's top 10 rural communities. * (15:30) Fort Garry Shuttle Bus Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce that on March 26 the Fort Garry shuttle bus was launched as a 12-week pilot program. Mr. Speaker, it is difficult for many seniors to get around the community and take care of their errands.

Buying groceries, going shopping with friends and neighbours, or getting out of the house for a coffee or tea becomes difficult without acces- sible and appropriate transportation. The purpose of the shuttle bus is to promote community development, enhance transportation, promote local businesses and create a sustainable shuttle service for seniors.

856 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 The shuttle bus picks up seniors at six different apartment blocks: Kiwanis Plaza, Rotary Villa, Armadale Hollows, Delta Manor and Adamar, Summerland and Silver View Estates. They are dropped off at different business stops in Fort Garry, including Pembina Village Mall, the Victoria General Hospital, Markham Professional Centre, Carrie's Place, Cottage Bakery/Vic's Fruit Market and Reh-Fit Centre. The bus then loops around the designed route and picks them up an hour and a half later at the same location. The shuttle runs from 10 to 2 p.m. on Fridays.

The shuttle bus committee has outreached to seniors, businesses and/or other organizations to promote and discuss the program, but has also been able to bridge principles of community economic development as well as enhance physical and social opportunities. I would like to thank this committee for helping to organize such a beneficial program for the community.

In particular, I would like to extend a thank you for the extraord inary work from Age and Opportunity, Theresa Jachnycky, Christa Durhack and Amanda Macrae; from the South Winnipeg Centre, Pat Hodgert; and the Winnipeg Seniors Transportation Working Group, Helen Quinn. Also thank you to all of the sponsors. Mayor Ed Anderson (Boissevain) Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): It gives me great pleasure to rise in the House to congratulate His Worship Mr.

Ed Anderson, the mayor of Boissevain, for his recognition by the Association of Manitoba Municipalities as an official who has made an outstanding contribution to his community. Mr. Speaker, as the winner of the AMM's annual recognition award for elected officials indicates, Mayor Anderson has been instrumental in Boissevain's rapid transformation into a vibrant and modern community that exists today. Mr. Speaker, the story of Ed Anderson begins shortly after he moved to Boissevain in 1979.

The following year he was elected to the town council for the first time and served for nine years until he was elected mayor in the fall of 1989. Under Mayor Anderson's 14-year leadership, the town of Boissevain blossomed in more ways than one. The town's beautification program, part of the mayor's vision to market Boissevain as a tourist destination, has led to provincial, national and international success, winning seven provincial awards, a national Communities in Bloom championship in 1999 and an international award in 2003.

He has also continued on as a board member of the International Peace Gardens in the role of beautification of the region. Projects such as the development of a new veterinary clinic in 1995, the opening of a new $3.4- million water treatment plant in 2000 and the renovation in 2002 of the Boissevain Health Centre, including a new doctors' clinic, have largely been the result of Mayor Anderson's vision for the future of Boissevain. Mayor Anderson has indicated that this term in office will be his last and that he plans to retire when his term expires in 2006, but the citizens will await any final decision.

I am sure that all members of this House will join me in congratulating Mayor Ed Anderson for his recent recognition by the AMM as an outstanding community leader and for his 24 years of dedicated service to the community of Boissevain. Sikhs CelebrateVaisakhi Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Today through- out the world, Sikhs will be celebrating Vaisakhi. Vaisakhi is the first month of the Sikh year and it is a time when Sikhs pay special attention to their tenth Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Gobind Singh Ji was the creator of the Khalsa Panth. He is recognized as a saint. He was a soldier and a great philosopher.

He spent his life professing the word of God. I had the privilege back on July 8, 1999, to bring forward a resolution on the 300th anniversary of Khalsa. This Chamber unanimously passed it. The debate back then clearly showed how important the Sikh community is to our province and our country. Sikhism is a wonderful worldwide faith that is followed by millions and should be respected by all. I would like to express my best wishes to those who will be celebrating Vaisakhi. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, would you please call second readings and then the following order: 40, 33, 35, 39, 24, 23, 31, 38, 30, 32, 36, 37, 42, 41; and then debate on second reading, 15 and 16.

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 857 SECOND READINGS Bill 40–The Planning Amendment Act Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Inter- governmental Affairs and Trade): I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives (Ms. Wowchuk), that Bill 40, The Planning Amendment Act, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Ms. Mihychuk: Mr.

Speaker, the objective of the proposed amendments to The Planning Act is to get municipalities and planning districts to do a better up-front land use planning, es pecially for agriculture and specifically for livestock operations.

This legislation is needed because the current planning system, which has an overreliance on conditional use process, allows local planning authorities to avoid or defer setting clear policy direction with respect to livestock operation developments; and that municipalities are straying into areas of provincial jurisdiction and munici- palities are using different rules to site livestock operations under The Municipal Act and The Planning Act. It is urgent because th is situation has created a confusing regulatory environment for producers and the public.

This, in turn, is creating significant community discord in many parts of the province. There are five components to the proposed amendment to The Planning Act and livestock operations: Number 1, Mr. Speaker, mandatory planning. All municipalities will be required, for the first time, to adopt a development plan and zoning by-laws as provided for under this act. Number 2, the livestock operation policy will be required in the development plan identifying where livestock operations may be considered, restricted or prohibited.

Number 3, a standard municipal review process for livestock operations to replace the conditional use process under The Planning Act and the general by- law of making powers under The Municipal Act. Number 4, the revised provincial land use policy regulation will be adopted to provide guidance to local planning authorities when developing a live- stock operation policy and adopting a zoning by-law. The revised provincial land use policy regulation will include criteria and minimum set-back and separa- tion distances for livestock operations based on the existing farm practices guidelines.

Number 5, clarify the roles and responsibilities between the Province and municipalities with respect to environmental regulation. In July of 2002, the Province announced its intention to introduce legislative amendments to improve local land-use decision making. This was done– * (15:40) Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Ste. Rose, on a point of order. Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Yes, Mr. Speaker. Not to be obstructionist, but this is a very important piece of legislation to those of us on this side of the House, and we are having difficulty hearing the minister. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Ste. Rose, it is not a point of order, but I sure have to agree with him because it is getting very, very difficult to hear. Any members that wish to have a conversation, please use the loges or have your conversation out in the hallway. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. * * * Ms. Mihychuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying, in July of 2002, the Province announced its intention to introduce legislative amendments to improve local land use decision-making. This was done after consultation with AMM and KAP.

Feed- back was subsequently received by key stakeholders and the public. The amendments also address a number of issues that have been raised in consulta- tions, that municipalities will have reasonable time frames within which to adopt a development plan and livestock operations policy, that the threshold for public notice, public hearing and technical review

858 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 committee report has been lowered to 300 animal units from the previous 400 AUs under the conditional use process. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Notice to property owners in adjacent munici- palities has been enhanced to increase the distance for notice and to ensure that property owners receive notice even if they are in adjacent municipalities, and municipalities will continue to have the final say on a livestock operation, that there will not be an appeal of a council decision.

In conclusion, I believe that we have developed a legislative proposal that fairly balances the interests of the Province, municipalities, producers and the public. It recognizes the important role of munici- palities in the livestock decision-making process at both policy and project levels. It recognizes that the protection of the environment is important to the sustainability of our communities. These interests are protected through both the local planning process and by Manitoba Conservation.

It recognizes that the public has an important say in the policy decision on where livestock operations will be allowed and the standards that are to apply in siting such operations. This matter has been debated and discussed for over three years beginning with the livestock review panel in the year 2000. We have consulted extensively, and the time has come to move forward. Adopting this bill will better ensure up-front planning for live stock at the community level and provide local municipalities a greater say in siting and setting livestock development policy and standards for siting such facilities.

I encourage all members of this House to endorse the bill. Thank you. Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): I move, seconded by the member from Emerson, that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 33–The Public Servants Insurance Amendment Act Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), that Bill 33, The Public Servants Insurance Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'assurance des employés du gouverne- ment, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of the bill, and I table the message. Motion presented. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, The Public Servants Insurance Amendment Act expands the classes of employees who may participate in the group life insurance plan under The Public Servants Insurance Act. This act provides the establishment of the Public Service Group Insurance Fund which is administered by the Civil Service Superannuation Board .

This fund, the PSGIF for short, includes three plans to provide life insurance, accidental death and dis- ablement insurance, and dependants' insurance for eligible employees and re tired employees and their eligible dependants of the Government of Manitoba and most Crown corporations, boards and agencies. Currently, there are approximately 31 000 members of the public service group insurance plan. At present, employees who ar e members of this plan must also be members of the Civil Service Superannuation Plan.

The changes to the act incorporated in this bill will enable the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council to expand the classes of employees who may participate in the group life insurance plan and to designate employees who are not Civil Service Superannuation Plan members as members of the group insurance plan. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that we adjourn debate. Mr. Deputy Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Member for Pembina, seconded by the honourable Member for Emerson, that debate on Bill 33 be now adjourned. Agreed? [Agreed]

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 859 Bill 35–The Credit Unions and Caisses Populaires Amendment Act Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I move, seconded by the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton), that Bill 35, The Credit Unions and Caisses Populaires Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les caisses populaires et les credit unions, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Selinger: The Credit Unions and Caisses Populaires Amendment Act will be amended to facilitate credit unions carrying on business, stream- line administrative requirements, provide greater protection to consumers and depositors, clarify some sections and correct typographical errors.

Of the proposed amendments, the more sub- stantive include: Individual credit unions or caisses populaires will now decide through their own by- laws whether to deal with associates without involving the central. The guaranteed corporations can be more effective regulators with the ability to issue binding directives to credit unions or caisses populaires. This will provide the guaranteed corpor- ation with an additional intervention tool to effect change. The act will restrict tied selling of products.

This restriction is common in financial-services- sector legislation in order to prevent undue pressure or coercion of customers to purchase unwanted products. Credit unions and caisses populaires will be able to pass by-laws to authorize new voting methods utilizing current technologies such as electronic voting. Fundamental changes such as changes to articles, extraordinary sale of assets or amalgam- ations will continue to require in-person voting at a meeting. Credit unions and caisses populaires will be able to buy loans from one another.

A loan syndication may be shared between credit unions and caisses populaires. Currently, credit unions and caisses populaires cannot interact on credit. Credit unions and caisses populaires will be given expanded power to issue securities to the public, subject to the provisions of The Securities Act. Currently, credit unions and caisses populaires can only issue securities to members. * (15:50) Directors' qualifications will be expanded to allow immigrants and some non-Manitoba resident members to serve on boards.

Non-Manitoba resident directors must be residents of Canada and will be limited to 25 percent of the board. The approval process for a credit unio n whose assets are 90 percent or more in an amalgamation will be sim- plified so that membership approval will not be required. Membership approval will still be required for smaller credit unions involved in an amalgam- ation. In addition, there are a number of administrative amendments to assist credit unions and caisses populaires to streamline thei r operations and become more competitive.

Examples of these administrative amendments include changing the legal name of Co-operative Credit Society of Manitoba Limited to Credit Union Central of Manitoba, CUCM, credit unions and caisses populaires will be able to use CU, CP or caisses when referring to themselves, and the registered office containing articles, by-laws and other key business information may be located anywhere in Manitoba. Mr. Deputy Speaker, with these brief comments, I am pleased to recommend this bill for consider- ation. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Hawranik), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to. Bill 39–The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology (Mr. Sale), that Bill 39, The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la location à usage d'habitation, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Selinger: The proposed amendments to Bill 39, The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act, will

860 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 resolve several issues that have arisen in the administration of the act. The definition of "landlord" will be clarified to ensure that mortgagees do not bypass the Residential Tenancies Branch and proceed to court to evict a tenant when the mortgager defaults. Amendments will also allow owners of mobile home parks to collect the property taxes on the mobile home from the homeowner in addition to rent, and clarify that those taxes are not part of rent. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the director of Residential Tenancies will be able to include conditions in an order prohibiting a utility company from stopping or interfering with the supply of the utility to a residential complex occupied by the tenants. Mr. Deputy Speaker, many of the amendments will clarify provisions of the act or streamline the operation of the Residential Tenancies Branch and Residential Tenancies Commission. The ability of tenants to terminate their tenancies if they can no longer live independently because of health concerns will be clarified.

Amendments will clarify where a landlord or a tenant do not have to give a notice to the other to remedy a problem before giving notice of termina- tion of the tenancy. The process relating to tenants' abandoned personal property will be streamlined, and amendments have been included to make it clear that orders and reasons of the director and the Residential Tenancies Commission are available to the public. The proposed changes will result in clearer legislation and more efficient administration of The Residential Tenancies Act to the benefit of both landlords and tenants. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, with these comments, I am pleased to recommend this bill for consideration. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to. Bill 24–The Travel Manitoba Act Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): I move, seconded by the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Lemieux), that Bill 24, The Travel Manitoba Act, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of this bill, and I table the message. Mr. Deputy Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism, seconded by the honourable Minister of Transportation and Government Services, that Bill 24, The Manitoba Travel Act;

Loi sur la Société Voyage Manitoba, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of this bill, and the message has been tabled. Mr. Robinson: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am very honoured and pleased to be introducing this bill, The Travel Manitoba Act, for second reading. I look forward to the committee hearings which will consider the bill in detail on a clause-by-clause basis.

This legislation has been developed to fulfil a commitment outlined in the Speech from the Throne, a commitment that our Government will establish a stand-alone tourism agency. Travel Manitoba will provide greater agility in responding to shifting tourism market conditions, facilitate private-sector investment and input which will foster continued growth in Manitoba's tourism sector. At the same time, I should describe that Travel Manitoba will be similar in operation to the Manitoba Film and Sound organization.

Both function as arm's-length agencies of government and will build on current public-private successes while striving for significant opportunities and identify potential markets. Manitoba Film and Sound was once within the department and has evolved to an external agency for reasons of increased flexibility and industry rep- resentation on a board.

The Ministerial Advisory Council on Tourism also recommended that the agency be represented by various clusters in a tourism industry such as accommodations, trans- portation, restaurants, festivals, natural and cultural events through the establishment of the board of directors. Eighty-five percent of the representatives will be from the tourism business and services industry. It will also oversee tourism marketing,

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 861 visitor information services, product development, research and public awareness of tourism. I would like to emphasis that before this agency begins operation, a business plan will be developed with significant input from industry representatives, and we anticipate that the new agency will be established by the spring of next year. I look forward to the successes of this private- public partnership that I am sure it will enjoy in the years ahead. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to. Bill 23–The Red River Floodway Act Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- ship): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Lemieux), that Bill 23, The Red River Flood- way Act, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of the bill, and I table the message. Motion presented. Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, since 1997, compensation for artificial flooding has been a major concern in the Red River Valley. It was often raised during the International Joint Commission Task Force May 2000 public hearings, and was frequently raised during the Clean Environment Commission during 2002 hearings on flood protection options. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, although Red River Valley residents generally accept the need to protect Winnipeg, they believe strongly that those who suffer loss or damage as a result of floodway operation should be fairly compensated, and after the CC's extensive consultations our Government announced its commitment to modernize the Red River Floodway. Over the past year, the Premier, the Prime Minister announced more than $240 million to begin work on the floodway expansion, represented the largest federal-provincial infrastructure investment in Manitoba since the floodway's original construction.

The City of Winnipeg is also committed to improving and upgrading municipal flood protection as part of this very important initiative, and this will fulfil the IJC's, that is the International Joint Commission's recommendations to safeguard the capital region from future flood devastation. We have indicated very clearly that rural Manitoba residents have not been left out. Mr.

Deptuy Speaker, since 1997, with our partners the federal government, we have spent $130 million on flood protection; $120 million of this, more than 92 percent, was invested for flood protection in the Red River Valley. * (16:00) This includes 20 communities, 1760 rural homes and businesses, and there are community ring dyke projects that have been put in place to protect residents of Aubigny, Dominion City, Emerson, Grand Pointe, Gretna, Lowe Farm, Niverville, Riverside, Roseau River, Rosenfeld, Rosenort, Ste. Agathe, St. Lazare, St. Mary 's Road and St. Pierre- Jolys.

Existing ring dykes for the communities of Brunkild, Letellier, Morris, St. Adolphe and St. Jean are also upgraded to within 100-year floods of magnitude of 1997. Our flood protection commit- ment is both to the Red River Valley and to the citizens of the city of Winnipeg. This legislation is important, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because we feel it is important to recognize that there will be rare circumstances in which the floodway operation will impact on people in terms of flooding above natural levels.

This should only occur during extreme spring floods when the floodway can no longer both protect Winnipeg and maintain the Red River's natural upstream level. With the floodway's current capacity, a flood of this magni- tude would happen once in 90 years. With the extended capacity, we ar e now looking at a much more significant protection. In the event that an

862 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 extreme spring flood of this nature does occur, those affected by artificial flooding will be compensated by this new legislation. Mr. Deputy Speaker, what this legislation does is bring in compensation, as I have indicated, for artificial flooding. Loss or damage must result from the spring flooding which would not have occurred in the absence of the floodway and related infra- structure. It covers damage in the Red River Valley, both north and south of Winnipeg.

It deals with the specific issue of artificial flooding and flooding caused by the summer floodway operation, which is both more frequent and more limited in its extent and impact. Summer flooding compensation can be arranged with each affected landowner and can be dealt with more expeditiously outside the legislative framework. Similarly, flooding caused by provincial water control infrastructure outside the Red River is not included in this legislation. Compensation will likewise be addressed on a case-by-case basis. Flooding due to natural causes is not covered by legislation.

This is covered through the Disaster Financial Assistance program. I think it is important to note and number the basic principles. All persons who have experienced artificial flooding are eligible to claim compensation, including individuals, farms, businesses, non-profit organizations and local authorities. Successful claimants will be compensated for both property damage and economic loss caused by artificial flooding with no claim ceiling and no deductible. Claims will be assessed based on claimant's proof of loss rather than proof of re pair or replacement.

This will help make the claim process an expedited one. Claimants will not have to repair or replace the damage property before making that claim, which will result in a much more efficient system for potential claimants. The Emergency Measures Organization will administer the proposed program, which will supple- ment compensation from other programs under the various different areas, including DFA, Disaster Financial Assistance.

Because it also administers DFA, EMO is uniquely positioned to offer integrated one-stop procedure for flood compensation and, subject to the approval of federal DFA officials, this process should be seamless, and that is a very important part of this.

To further avoid duplication, the existing Disaster Assistance Appeal Board will provide an independent, non-judicial review of disputed claims in a timely and cost-effective manner, and the board's composition structure will be modified to allow it to accommodate a higher volume of appeals in the event of artificial flooding caused by the floodway operation during the extreme spring flood. The claims and appeal pr ocedures will take the place of court action. As well, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, this is extended in terms of legislation prohibiting legal actions to prevent the Government from operating the floodway during extreme spring flood. The Government believes the proposed legislation will address Red River Valley residents' legitimate concerns and security needs in regards to artificial flooding so we can proceed for what is a very important project. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I recommend this bill to members of the Legislature.

I think it shows again that our commitment to expanding the floodway, which is going to be one of the most important construction projects of this decade, is in not only providing additional flood proofing for the citizens of the city of Winnipeg, recognizing the original floodway which has protected Winnipeg against upwards of $8-billion worth of damage, but we are not only going to increase th at protection for the city of Winnipeg, we are actually providing some benefits in the valley itself in terms of improved flood protection.

We are making a commitment here to respond to the many legitimate concerns expressed by residents of the Red River Valley in terms of artificial flooding. Artificial flooding through this legislation will be covered in terms of compensation. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to. Bill 31–The Floodway Authority Act Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- ship): I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour and Immigration (Ms.

Allan), that The Floodway Authority Act be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 863 His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of the bill, and I table the message. Mr. Deputy Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister responsible for Water Steward- ship (Mr. Ashton), seconded by the honourable Minister responsible for Labour and Immigration, that Bill 31, The Floodway Authority Act;

Loi sur la Commission du canal de dérivation, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of the bill, and the message has been tabled. Mr. Ashton: I a m v e r y p l e a s e d t o r i s e o n t h i s b i l l which establishes the floodway authority as a Crown agency, and in fact the floodway authority will be responsible for expanding the capacity of the Red River Floodway and enhancing the benefits the floodway provides to Manitobans. It also makes consequential amendments to The Water Resources Administration Act.

There are a couple of points I want to raise, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in discussion on this particular bill which I think are very important. First of all, the importance of this particular bill; it provides a very important element of our plan to greatly improve flood protection for the city of Winnipeg, as I indicated in the previous bill that I introduced which dealt with compensation for artificial flooding. We have made a very significant commitment as a province; we have made a signifi- cant commitment to improve flood protection in the Red River Valley. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, there has already been a very significant investment as part of the federal- provincial Flood Proofing Program, and I want to put on the record that that is something that, I think, has provided very significant enhanced protection for many residents of the Red River Valley. In fact, if you look at it, the fact that we have had $130 million of flood protection and that $120 million of this has been invested to protect the residents of the Red River Valley certainly speaks of our commitment to flood protection in the Red River Valley. This particular project, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, is going to be very challenging. We are now pro- ceeding to the project de sign and environmental assessment stage. We are anticipating going for environmental approvals fairly soon and, depending on those approvals, the cons truction of the project could be underway as early as next year. What this legislation does is it moves us from the current situation in which we have an interim authority in place. We will establish, as a matter of legislation, the floodway, and it will be specifically responsible for the expanding of the capacity of the Red River Floodway. I want to stress, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, how much of a challenge this is. I know that we will have the opportunity in other parts of this session, in other time periods, to discuss other issues related to the Red River Floodway. But this is going to be certainly one of the most ambitious projects, certainly the most ambitious infrastructure project.

We already have a $240-million commitment that has ensured that this is a high priority project on the infra- structure side, but I want to stress again that the floodway authority will play a key role in the building of the authority, the design of the authority and also ensuring benefits to Manitobans. I will not get into details, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in terms of the specific structure. I think the bill is fairly self-explanatory. I could indicate that the key distinction will continue in the sense that the Department of Water Stewardship will continue to be responsible for the actual operation of the floodway.

I think that is important. It allows the floodway authority to focus in on the very challenging job ahead. I also want to stress again the fact that this is part of our package. I introduced other legislation just a few minutes ago which dealt with the compensation concerns. * (16:10) But, clearly, we felt it was appropriate when we were engaged with constructing such an ambitious project, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, to establish a structure or Crown agency that, in this case, will be able to develop the capacity and work with the private sector in terms of the actual delivery of the project; work with many other stakeholders, certainly in terms of training and education opportunities, business oppor- tunities.

864 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 I want to stress, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the challenge is a great opportunity. We, in particular, are going to have challenges with the lack of trained staff, skilled operators, semi-skilled operators in this province relative to the size of this project. We have begun a process that we hope will be, I think, building on some of the experience that we have had with Limestone and various hydro-related projects, particularly pointing to some great opportunities here in working with our Aboriginal communities in terms of training.

There are some great opportunities, I believe, in terms of involving more women in these kinds of trades, and certainly they are stakeholders as well, and other equity groups and Manitobans generally.

I think we also have a great opportunity here to develop a continent-wide construction capability, because this is part of this Government's agenda that includes not only the floodway expansion but also the proposed Wuskwatim dam, which is a very significant project and certainly in conjunction with many of the other kinds of projects we are seeing in this province, the fine work of the Department of Transportation and Government Services ongoing commitment to Manitoba roads. I think we are going to see over the next period of time a real challenge but a real opportunity. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it is the same thing on the business side. I hope when we do discuss this bill that there is consideration of the fact that this is going to be a great opportunity. Clearly, we are committed to the tendering process but obviously through that tendering process we see some real significant opportunities for Manitobans. I think that is important to put on the record. But at all times we have to recognize one thing. That is one of the reasons why setting up this agency is so important. Obviously, we did not have the capacity within government. We have had to go this route in terms of capacity.

But we also do not, I think, have the luxury of looking at any significant delays. The exposure as identified by the Inter- national Joint Commission in 1997 each year in terms of not having expanded floodway coverage is going to be in the range of $75 million dollars or more in a given year. So every year, every year that we do not have that expansion in place, that is the kind of exposure that we have. That is why it is so important to have this project built in an efficient manner and without disruption.

I also want to stress that not only that, it is important to note that the floodway also expands its capacity each and every year that work is done. When any of the earth moving takes place that year after year after year expands the design capacity of the floodway. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that means that we do not have to wait until the end of the project to get marginal significant increased and enhanced floodway operation in any given year. That is why I recommend this bill to the House.

I also want to note, by the way, that the floodway authority is already in this interim forum up and running and is involved with many consultations, particularly throughout rural Manitoba. I commend them for the work they are doing because I think this is a very exciting project. I think it is a forward- thinking project. I am proud that our Government is part of it and I am particularly proud today to be introducing The Floodway Authority Act. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to.

Bill 38–The Fisheries Amendment Act Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- ship): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Aboriginal an d Northern Affairs (Mr. Lathlin), that Bill 38, The Fisheries Amendment Act, be now read a second ti me and referred to a com- mittee of this House. Mr. Deputy Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister responsible for Water Steward- ship, seconded by the honourable Minister for Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, that Bill 38, The Fisheries Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la pêche, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Mr. Ashton: In keeping with the broad mandate of the new Department of Water Stewardship, the first, the only full-fledged department responsible for water-related issues in this country and, probably, in North America, I am very pleased today to be speaking on

an act that we feel is very important, as a government, because it takes some very significant steps to protect our fisheries.

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 865 I want to note, Mr. Deputy Speaker, first of all that the act is very important because of the importance of fisheries here in Manitoba. I think anyone from areas of this province that have a commercial fishery will know how significant that is. I represent a number of communities where there is active commercial fishing in my own constituency. But certainly commercial fishing is a very important part of this province's economy and, I might add, so are sport and recreational fishing.

We can claim to have some of the best lakes in Canada and, of course, we are well-known as a country in terms of our lakes, in terms of our fisheries. Mr. Deputy Speaker, cer tainly, there are many world-renowned lodges in this province, but there are many other areas which Manitobans in increasing numbers every year are taking advantage of. I note, for example, the growth of fly-fishing in the Parklands and Westman, certainly with FLIPPR, which I think is one of the most interesting organiza- tions in terms of its name. It is nothing to do with dolphins; they told me that.

It is very much to do with fly-fishing, that they have held world-class events in our province, and I want to stress that the diversity of our fisheries is really quite remarkable. You can even catch Arctic char in Churchill. So we are well known in that area. But, you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, at the same time we face the tremendous opportunities from our fishing side, I want to st ress that our fisheries can very easily be at threat and at risk. We have taken a very clear line, a very clear position on fisheries, and that is that we will not tolerate illegal fishing in this province.

I want to stress that is illegal fishing of any kind: illegal commercial, illegal sport fishing, illegal fishing of any kind because there is just too much at stake. I think anyone that has seen some of the situations where lakes have been under stress in terms of fish populations will understand it is a lot more difficult to bring back fish populations once fish have been removed from the lake over and above the kind of balance that we put in place, through our licensing provisions and through our recognition of the various rights that people have in terms of fisheries.

That is one of the reasons why I am particularly pleased that we are introducing a new fine that will increase the current fine, the general provisions from $10,000 to $100,000. This is important. It is a necessary amendment beca use in many cases the commercial value of illegally caught fish often exceeds the present maximum fine of $10,000. I want to stress, by the way, that obviously this is a maximum penalty and it is not intended to be used in more minor cases. But we will take a very clear line in terms of that.

Currently, there are no legislative powers under The Fisheries Act making it an offence to damage or destroy equipment being used by fishers. I want to note, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that this act also uses the term "fishers" in clear recognition, non-sexist lan- guage, and recognizes that there are definitely fishers out there of both genders. I think it is quite appropriate that we are doing that.

So, when I use the term "fishers," it is, I think, a very important symbolic statement. * (16:20) I want to put on the record that this is important, because we have seen cases in the last number of years where fishing equipment has been deliberately damaged or destroyed, legal fishing equipment has been damaged or destroyed, and I want to stress, again, legal or otherwise, we do not accept people making these kinds of moves, taking the law into their own hands, if you like.

This is also important because we do have many fishers out there that rely on fishing equipment for their livelihood, for sustenance, for sports fishing. We will not accept that. A further amendment to the act makes it illegal for anyone other than an o fficer authorized under the act to remove, damage or interfere with any net or fishing gear set out by another person, Again, we have natural resource officers in this province. That is their job and they do a tremendous job.

We have the enforcement capabilities and I want to stress that through this act, again, we want to make it very clear that we are backing up our natural resources officers. We are giving them the tools to do the job and we are making it very clear that this kind of behaviour is not acceptable. The act also only provides for seizure under a warrant. I think that is important. This allows resource officers to seize evidence and equipment where, in the scope of their duties, they discover an offence being committed consistent with this or any

866 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 other provincial legislation, or the Fisheries Act of Canada. This is important. It supplements the existing seizure powers under warrant. We want to give our resource officers the tools to do the job. Now, without such a provision, resource officers seize evidence when they obs erve an offence such as fishing without a licence or using illegal gear or illegal sale and transportation of fish, unless they first obtain a warrant.

In addition, differing federal and provincial seizure provisions, both of which are forced by Manitoba resource officers, can often create confusing situations in terms of investigations. An additional amendment in the act will clarify the authority and allow Manitoba to better exercise its constitutional authority over allocation of Crown property by regulating intraprovincial movements and transactions involving commercially caught fish. This will help ensure the allocation of Manitoba's fisheries is in accordance with provincial authorities.

Now, the regulation-making authority will also allow the Province to regulate fish buyers and sellers and license certain components of the commercial fishing industry that take place in Manitoba. Specifically, this will include those who purchase and sell fish other than directly from a commercial freshwater fish ma rketing corporation or the private consumer. This would include door-to-door fish sellers, contract fish pu rchasing agents, the FFMC and fish retail outlets. This would include the purchase and sale of listed fish species originating from other jurisdictions.

Given the complexity of possible fish move- ments and transactions, we think this is important. I want to stress why. Clearly, we have to define acceptable sources of fish sold for consumption. We have to ensure that fish are packaged in a way that can be easily verified as coming from an appropriate source. We have to ensure that appropriate reporting and documentation occur. That is important, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because we have to make sure that there is integrity in the sale of commercially sold fish in this province that is, in fact, properly and legally caught.

Further amendments to the act will repeal provisions that are no longer used. There are a number of minor administrative amendments. I want to stress, again, that we are taking a very tough line on our fisheries. We are working very closely with all stakeholders in this province and, doing that, whether they be sports and recreational fishers, commercial fishers, lodge operators, First Nations, Aboriginal people, generally, we are committed to doing that.

I want to particularly commend the work that was done by the seconder of this bill, the former Conservation Minister, I guess, now, but the previous Fisheries Minister who, certainly, has established some very important models that point the way to co-operative approaches. I look at what has been put in place in Lake Dauphin and Lake of the Prairies and the co-operative work there with people from that area, including First Nations. I think that type of a co-operative approach is important.

I want to stress that wh at we are also doing now is in addition to all the co-operative efforts that we are dealing with throughout the province, the fine work being done by the Fisheries Enhancement Initiative, the excellent work being done by so many community based fishing groups in communities. We are stating very clearly that we will not tolerate illegal fishing of any kind. This act makes sure that we give more tools to our resource offices to do the job, the important job of protecting our fisheries' resources for generations to come. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr.

Peter Dyck (Pembina): I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Eichler), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to. Bill 30–The Safe Schools Charter (Various Acts Amended) Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): I move, seconded by the Minister responsible for Ch ild and Family Services, that Bill 30, The Safe Schools Charter (Various Acts Amended); Charte de la sécurité dans les écoles (modification de diverses dispositions législatives), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Bjornson: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I want to talk about some important steps our Government is taking with Bill 30 toward ensuring Manitoba

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 867 schools are safe, caring, learning environments for students. I want to take note that schools in our province are generally safe, but our work on safe schools would ensure consistency and common core standards across the province. Schools are more than just institutions of learning. They are the context in which our children spend the most important parts of their formative lives and they play a very im portant social role in all of our communities. We need to take every effort to ensure that our schools are safe places for learning.

When a family sees a child off to school they expect that child to spend the day learning, growing and building a stronger future. Since 1999, our Government has worked to implement a number of programs to provide safe and interactive youth programs including Lighthouses. Last year there were 8000 visits from mostly at-risk students to Lighthouses. We have committed to having a total of 40 Lighthouses in the province over our mandate. Our Government has made other improvements in safety for our children including the introduction of the first cyber tip line in Canada to protect children online.

We also successfully lobbied the federal government to add Internet luring to the Criminal Code. The result of Cybertip.ca to date: 555 reports received, 130 Web sites shut down and 7 arrests. We have also been moving forward with a new system for classifying movies and videos. Last week Minister Robinson announced that our Government is prepared to introduce legislation to address the regulation of video games. The police in schools initiative with police, the Winnipeg School Board, and parents for police officers in 15 north Winnipeg schools. The result: less bullying, less conflict.

It is bringing cops and kids together. In March, 2001, the Premier (Mr. Doer) announced a partnership initiative between the departments of Justice and Education to establish the Manitoba Safe Schools Council. The name of this council was later changed to Safe Schools Manitoba, and in January of 2002 Dr. Mary Hall began working as the director. Safe Schools Manitoba is a partnership of organizations committed to working together to enhance the safety of schools across the province.

Partners in the initiative include Manitoba Education, Citizenship and Youth, Manitoba Justice, the Community Mobilization Program of the National Crime Prevention Centre and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The work of Safe Schools Manitoba has been incredibly well received. I have recently received a number of letters from schools praising the work of Safe Schools Manitoba.

One of them reads, and I quote: "Safe Schools Manitoba has been very active in encouraging divisions, student councils, parent councils and other school groups to partner to conquer the fears of our youth so that learning is first and foremost in the minds of our children.

Teachers that teach in a safe school atmosphere realize how important it is to keep up with the information that is provided by Safe Schools Manitoba." Another letter specifically addresses youth involvement in Safe Schools and it reads: "We have leadership students who serve on a school-based Safe Schools committee and provide excellent insight into the safety concerns that we face in our community. We have involved students in planning, imple- mentation and educating of their fears and topics such as bullying, Internet safety, substance abuse, vandalism and reporting on safe situations." Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I am pleased with the proposed changes to The Public Schools Act and The Education Administration Act in Bill 30. Teachers and administrators, as well as students, need to be in a safe, caring environment that fosters and maintains respectful and responsible behaviours. Under the approach we are taking, principals would work with advisory groups to develop codes of conduct for people and staff. They are to prepare emergency response plans for their schools, and review the information on a regular basis to ensure it is current.

Over the past year, the provincial government has worked with education stakeholders to address issues such as bullying and other types of abuse in our schools. Our Safe Schools charter would require that every school develop a code of conduct. The code of conduct must include a statement that pupils comply with the rules of the school and conduct themselves in a respectful manner. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the code must also include a statement that it is unacceptable to bully or abuse physically, sexually or psychologically any person; to discrimi- nate on the basis of any characteristic set out in subsection 9(2) of the Human Rights Code, including

868 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 2004 race, culture, religion, gender, language, disability, sexual orientation or other attribute; to damage school property or the property of others; to use, possess or be under the influence of alcohol or illicit drugs at school.

Two additional elements which schools must incorporate into individual codes are statements indicating that gang involvement and possessing a weapon will not be tolerated on school sites and the disciplinary consequences of violating the code of conduct and the process for appealing disciplinary decisions be included. * (16:30) With regard to technology in the schools, the code of conduct must include a statement that pupils and staff must adhere to school policies respecting appropriate use of electronic mail and the Internet, including the prohibition of accessing, uploading, downloading or distributing material that the school has determined to be objectionable.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, our Safe Schools Charter will require that the school's emergency response plans include topics such as controlling access of visitors to the schools; school communications during an emergency, including contacting parents or guardians; responding to a threat by a person having a weapon on the school site; dealing with bomb threats, fires, chemical spills and weather-related emergencies; and evacuating school buildings and carrying out practice drills.

What we envision is a process that would allow for stakeholder involvement in developing the regulations to support the charter generally and considerable local input into the development of codes of conduct in emergency response plans. I would like to thank the Safe Schools focus group, which included stakeholders from the education community and the broader community. This focus group met with my predecessor and myself and provided us with the sense and the breadth of the issues and feedback on what should be done to make schools safer. We asked specifically for student input on the issue of safe schools.

I would like to thank Patrick Lambert and Christopher Rondeau, Glenlawn Collegiate, for their input to date through their involvement with the focus group. Our Government is committed to education. Bill 30 will help us ensure that our schools are safe places for learning. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to. Bill 32–The Provincial Railways Amendment Act Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I am pleased to move, seconded by the Minister of Labour and Immigration (Ms. Allan), that Bill 32, The Provincial Railways Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les chemins de fer provinciaux, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am pleased to speak to my honourable colleagues today regarding amendments my department is introducing under The Provincial Railways Amendment Act. The amendments address a gap in the current legislation with respect to the responsibility for costs associated with maintenance and safety improve- ments to rail crossing protections, such as flashing signals and crossing arms .

Historically, the costs associated with maintenance and improvement of all rail crossings have been funded by the federal government, as the railways operated under the federal jurisdiction. Mr. Deputy Speaker, with the transfer of many of these lines to provincial railways, the federal government is absolved of any financial respon- sibility for maintenance and improvement of rail crossings on those lines. The short-line railways are billing the department for signal maintenance costs on the basis of cost appropriation orders in place

April 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 869 with the federal railway at the time of the rail transfer. They are, however , refusing to share the cost for capital and maintenance and new crossing protection. The department to date has had to absorb these costs. The new legislation will provide authority for the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to appropriate costs related to maintenance and safety improvements to short-line railway crossings. Cost appropriation formulas will be established in regulation made under the authority of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council.

Different formulas are required to address routine maintenance costs, capital costs, renewed protection infrastructure and to recognize historical arrangements. The minister can then make orders giving effect to the applicable cost-appropriation formula for specified crossings. In most cases the costs will be shared between the department, the traffic authority, such as a munici- pality, and the short-line railway on the basis of the same formula that is used to proportion costs at federal rail crossings.

In closing, the proposed legislation will address a gap in The Provincial Railways Act regarding responsibility for costs associated with rail crossing maintenance and safety improvements. This will ensure that all responsible authorities, the short-line railway, the municipality, and the province share in the safety of highway and railway crossings. I look forward to discussing the details of this bill with my colleagues at law amendments committee. Thank you. Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan), that we move the adjournment of this bill.

Motion agreed to. Bill 36-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am pleased to move, seconded by the Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines (Mr. Smith), that Bill 36, The Highway Traffic Amend- ment Act, be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am pleased to speak to my honourable colleagues today regarding the amendments my department is introducing under The Highway Traffic Amendment Act.

The bill addresses a variety of issues ranging from new safety measures to extensive housekeeping amendments that actualized and modernized antiquated pro

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-2-20
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 2nd hansardpdf 20.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6e246bb14d5cb0694ddefb51df039f6fd0a37b90

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