Manitoba Hansard — 14 June 2000 (Sitting 45, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-45

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session-Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 45- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, June 14, 2000

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETI, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosano, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

262 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, June 14, 2000 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Commi ttee of Supply Mr. Conrad Santos (Chai rperson): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has con sidered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report of the Committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Dr. Clay Gilson Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agricul ture and Food): Mr.

Speaker, I have a ministerial statement. I rise this afternoon to pay tribute to one of Manitoba's outstanding citizens. Dr. Clay Gilson passed away unexpectedly Sunday, June 11 , 2000, after a lifetime of serving his native province. Doctor Gilson was born in Deloraine, Manitoba, and was raised on a farm near Medora. His early years on the farm were during the period often referred to as the Dirty Thirties, a period where severe drought combined with great depressions caused producer hardship for many of Manitoba farm families.

This experi ence influenced all of Doctor Gilson's life as he continued to work for the betterment of the lives of farm families. Doctor Gilson earned his undergraduate degree from the University of Manitoba and his PhD from the Iowa State University. He joined the Department of Agricultural Economics in 19 54 and continued working out of an office in the department until the present time, following his retirement in 19 92, and was awarded the title of Professor Emeritus.

In fact, retirement changed little as Doctor Gilson continued to work as hard as ever with his last role as Chair of the Agriculture Research and Development Council. In his long and distinguished career, Doctor Gilson served as the head of the Department of Agricultural Economics, Dean of the Faculty of Graduated Studies and Vice-President of Research at the University of Manitoba. Manitoba was the leader in the development of crop insurance in Canada as Doctor Gilson designed the first program in 1959.

He continued to serve Manitoba farmers during several tenns as Chairman of Manitoba Crop Insurance Cor poration. This service to farmers was a reflection of his earlier experiences of the impact that drought can have on farm families. Doctor Gilson's expertise was called upon in many areas. He led the grain industry con sultation that resulted in the Western Grain Transportation Act. He served as a member of the Canada-U.S. consultation on the transport of grain trade. He continued to act as an adviser and consultant to Manitoba credit unions.

These are just a few of the examples of the public service rendered by Doctor Gilson. He was recognized for these public con tributions with many awards. He was inducted into the Canadian Agriculture Hall of Fame in 19 96, made a member of the Order of Canada in 19 93, awarded an honorary Doctorate of Law at the University of Guelph and a Fellowship in the Canadian Agricultural Economics and Farm Management Society. But in Clay's mind, his greatest rewards came from the students he taught.

In a recent tribute to a retiring former student, he stated that it was in the achievements of his students that a professor sees the impacts

2622 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA June 14 , 2000 of his eff orts, and Doctor Gils on had thousands of students both inside and outside the classroom. * (13: 35) Manit oba and Canada have lost an out standing citizen, and Manitoba is a better place because he liv ed and worked here, and we will miss him. Our sincere sympathy is extended to his wif e, Jean, and his family. May they have comfort in the knowledge that their husband and father was widely respected and admired. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr.

Chairman, it is with sadness that we rise today to pay tribute to a man that many of us that have been involv ed in the agricul tural indus try have known for many years. He was one of these people that came to you as a friend, he demons trated to you his will ingness to work with you, and he had a great belie f in the farm community's ability to serve their own needs and support and organize for themselves. I will never forget the first time I met Doctor Gilson.

It was at the University of Manitoba where we were touring plots of canola that one of his colle agues had developed, a new variety of canola. and he said this: Jack, the day that you organize as farmers and speak with one voice, that day you will become effective as leaders in the farm community. That thought never left me.

He was quite instrumental, whether it was a farm business organ ization, whether it was Canadian Federation of Agriculture, whether it was the formation of the Keystone Agricultural Producers in ensuring that farmers had a voice in policy development and direction, and in his influence and his work with young people to teach them what agriculture was all about not just the productive capacity of agriculture, but the true meaning of agriculture and what it meant to live and work on farms will never be forgotten.

His greatest tribute will be, I belie ve, leaving that knowledg e base with us and with the child ren of the future and the young people of this province. He le aves a famil y, his wife, Jean . We want to thank his family for the con tribution their father has made to our province, indeed to our country and agricu lture around the world. His memory will last forever, and we will remember him forever. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask for leave to speak on the Minis ter's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave? [Agreed} Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, I, too, would like to pay tribute to Dr. Clay Gilson and the many contributions that he made to Manitoba. He is indeed well known, an icon for Manitoba agriculture. The contributions in many, many ways have been extraordina ry over a long period of time, and we in Manitoba are very lucky to have benefited from his contributions.

I would li ke to mention, in addition to what has been talked of so far, that he served for many years as a member of the Manitoba Round Table on the Envir onment which was initially the Environ ment and the Economy and then later became the Manit oba Round Table on Sustainable Development. In deed, Doctor Gi lson had a perspective on development in Manit oba which was sustainable and sensitive to the needs of the environment as well as the importance of agricul ture itself.

His contribution and his legacy perhaps are. in part, The Sustainable Development Act, which was proclaimed in July 19 98, and which we now are following through on. As we recognize, the Premier (Mr. Doer) recognized yesterday, will have a strategy forthcoming shortly, which again will continue the tributes and the remarkable memory, the remarkable contributions that Doctor Gils on has made to this province. Thank you. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have with us today from the Immacula te Heart of Mary School 22 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Debbie Whittevrongle. This school is loca ted in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). Al so with us in the gallery are four students from Lester B. Pearson Col lege of the Unit ed

June 14 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2623 World Colleges in Victoria, B.C.; Sara O'Shaughnessy from Winnipeg; Michaela Selig from Nova Scotia; Karin Geisler from Austria; Ivalo Pedersen from Greenland. The students are guests of the Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) whose daughter Niki Ashton attends the United World College in Hong Kong. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. * (1 3:40) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Premier's Pipeline Web Site Links Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): My question is for the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, the Premier has con structed a Web site for Manitoba youth called the Premier's Pipeline. This site encourages young people to ask the Premier questions via the Internet. It also contains a number of links to supposedly youth-oriented Internet sites. To my surprise, some of the links to the Premier's Pipeline are questionable. to say the least. I would like to table. in the House today, copies of some of those links.

I would like to ask the Premier whether he is aware that children using his Web site can, within just a few clicks of the mouse, view the Wild Women of the Web, order mail-order brides and read articles titled: "I am pro life; that is why I must kill you" and "God hates fags." Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I know that the Web itself contains access to a considerable amount of educational material, and I also know the Web contains unacceptable material in terms of the values that I hold. Having said that, when I did have a demon stration from the two young people who designed the Web in Brandon at the youth forum.

I did click onto the six spots that were there and certainly the various areas that were directly in the responsibility of the provincial government, Education, other departments. Material that was suggested by the Member opposite. I certainly did not see it when I clicked onto the specific sites that were on the Web site a couple of months ago. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Mitchelson: This is a very serious issue, an issue that no member of government should take lightly, because it is accessed by the children in the province of Manitoba.

We certainly do not condone the kind of Internet access that this Web site provides. I would like to ask the Premier to explain to Manitobans today the hypocrisy when, on one hand, he wants to abolish YNN because it supposedly exposes school children to com mercials in the classroom, but on the other hand, his government Web site, accessible to school children at school, links children to heavily sexually oriented and inappropriate material. Does the Premier see the sad hypocrisy in this situation? Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, if there is any direct link-[interjection} No, I am not going to defend it.

If there is any direct link to matters that the Member opposite indicated, we will take review of that and find a way to stop it. I pressed the six links that were on the Premier's Pipeline when I accessed it and had a demonstration from the young people. I perhaps did not go as far afield as members opposite to find this material, but on the direct links that I pressed, I did not see similar material. If I had, it would be as unacceptable to the Member opposite as it would be to me. I have children, and if my children have direct access to this stuff, it is unacceptable. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr.

Speaker: Order. Mrs. Mitchelson: It appears the Member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) certainly is not taking this issue seriously, and he should, as should all members of government, who clearly should be embarrassed by the Premier's pipeline to porno. Would the First Minister today in this House apologize to Manitoba families and to Manitoba

2624 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANIT OBA June 14 , 2000 child ren and immediately ensure that he reviews, in full, the links to porno that his Premier's Pipeline has and ensure that they are no longer available to chil dren in Manitoba? * (13 :45) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I am certainly will ing to investig ate any specific link that is indica ted on the Premier's Pipeline that specifically provides the material that the members opposite bring forward. I cl icked on the Message from the Premier at Brandon. I clic ked on What's Goin g On, Your Opinion Counts, Ask the Premier, Youth Links.

I did not see simila r material . If there is similar material, specifically on the specific clic k of the mouse, I would be will ing to look at it, inve stigate it, and obviously, if it is a direct link, stop it. First Nations Casinos Gaming Agreement Compliance Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, we have learned that some consortium members of the five successful casino proposals have a history of not being in compliance with their existing gaming agreements, including the Mathias Colomb Cree Nation, Bl oodvein and the Hollow Water First Nations.

After numerous faxes, verbal requests and annual inde pendent audits that were made, these requests went unanswered to the Manitoba Gaming Control Commission. Mr. Speaker, will the Minis ter responsible for privatizing gaming ple ase advise the House if all five proponents were in compliance with their existing gaming agreements when they submitted their proposals to the selection committee, as required in the RFP? Ron. Ron Lemieux (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Gaming Control Act): Well, Mr.

Speaker, I have been advised that there are indiv idual partners within a proponent consortium, a partner ship, that were not in compl iance on March 31, the deadline submitted, submitting their proposals. Mr. Reimer: The next question is: What is he going to do about it? These were not in compliance. Were those RFPs, when they were completed, not in order? Therefore, in all li keliho od, they should have been kicked out. Is that not true? Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, the selection committee was not going to disqual ify a whole consortium proponent because ofthe compliance issues around one or two partners. Mr.

Reimer: Mr. Speaker, I find this totally, total ly mind-bo ggl ing. We have a request for proposals that have to comply by certain rules and regula tions. This min ister is now saying that they can bend the rules to fit the application. Will this min ister confirm that that is the rule, and that each one can make up their own rules, and also that maybe the other ones that were rejected still could be in consi deration? Mr.

Lemieux: All proponents, as mentioned, before they receive a go-ahead to proceed with their casino project, must satisfy al l regulatory and compliance requirements of the Manitoba Gaming Control Commission. In that way, we will make sure that every proponent, before they get the go-ahead to enter into any agreements. meets all the conditions, regulatory and other wise, with the Gaming Control Commission. First Nations Casinos Alternate Proposals Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, the NDP Government has been telling Manito bans that during the election they promised to create five aboriginal casinos.

Yesterday the Min ister responsible for gaming was very vague and even evasive, and real ly we are not sure whether he did or did not rule out replacing any failed casino proposals. Can the Minis ter of gaming advise Manitobans if his government has investi gated any scenarios of replacing casino proponents if any of the current five recom mended proposals are unable to receive final approval? * (13 :50) Ron. Ron Lemieux (Minister cha rged with the admini stration of The Gaming Control Act): I thank the Member for Russell for the question. Als o, yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, I did mention that we should not lose sight of the fact

June 14 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2625 that this is a great opportunity for First Nations people to gain employment and economic development from this initiative, and certainly an election promise that we made. I know, a novel idea; they have heard it before. I am going to repeat it again. We made a promise before the election, and we are going to keep that promise. We said, in looking at the Bostrom report, that we would look at up to five First Nations casinos or gaming institutions or license five gaming institutions.

I guess what I am telling the Member opposite is that that is what we were certainly looking at today, we looked at then, and we are certainly looking at licensing, or certainly approving, I should say, up to five First Nations casinos. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, then my question is to the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. Can he explain why his department told Chief Murray Clearsky of Waywayseecappo reserve, in reference to his band's casino proposal, to "hang on." Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker.

I have had the opportunity of not only talking to Chief Murray Clearsky, but indeed Chief Ed Hayden. as well as some of the unsuccessful proponents of the casino initiatives that we have underway in the province of Manitoba. We have not yet determined as to what we will do if indeed the five that were selected, and if some cannot-we do not want to predetermine the outcome. We want to give these five an opportunity to go to the full extent to see that their aspirations are met. Beyond that, we have not planned for that, and we have to, of course, be realistic.

We have, too, the implementation committee to consider. We have to work that out with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs. So we do not want to predetermine the initial five that were selected as potential siteholders for casinos. Mr. Derkach: The Minister responsible for gaming has told this House time and time again that it was an independent committee that was selecting the five casinos for this province. I would like to ask the First Minister (Mr.

Doer): In light of his five-casino commitment, can he advise Manitobans what his government's policy is if any of the selection committee's five recommended proposals fail to proceed, for whatever reason? Mr. Robinson: Again, Mr. Speaker, I would like to repeat the selection committee recom mended five, the five that came out on top. We want to give these people, the five successful proponents, every chance and opportunity to realize what they aspire to develop. Beyond that, we do not want to predetermine any outcomes. First Nations Casinos Gaming Agreement Compliance Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask a further question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Just moments ago he mentioned that three of the proponents in the proposals for the casinos were not in compliance under the existing Manitoba Gaming Commission's rules and regulations. It clearly indicates in the RFP that all conditions must be met as the RFP is submitted.

What he is saying now, or what I believe he said, is that they will adjust after the fact that these casino proposals have been awarded. * ( 13 :55) If this is the case, then what they are doing is they are making up rules on the fly in regard to the casinos. I want to ask the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, the Minister responsible for the privatization of gaming in this province, whether this is true. If this means, then, that these five have their own rules, will he also bend the rules if any that were kicked out can be brought in for consideration? Hon.

Ron Lemieux (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Gaming Control Act): Certainly in the RFP it says a proponent and any other participants must be in compliance with all gaming laws, regulations, including the Criminal Code of Canada, and so on. The selection committee was not going to disqualify a whole consortium proponent because of com pliance issues surrounding one or two. They made the recommendations, and an imple mentation committee certainly will ensure that no one will be receiving the go-ahead to proceed

2626 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14 , 2000 with the casino project before they satisfy every regulatory and compliance requirement of the Manitoba Gaming Control Commission. Mr. Reimer: I would ref er to yesterday's comments by the Mini ster of Consumer and Corporate Affairs where he mentioned that the same laws of the land will apply to the First Nations casinos. He is clearly contradicting what he was saying. He is saying that they were approved, knowing that three of them were not in complia nce,

whereas in the RFP they had to be in compliance. Which way will it be? Should they be in compliance, or do they not have to be in complia nce, because of the 29, they were not in complia nce, and 5 casinos were approved with 3 of them not in complia nce? Mr. Speaker, those are not the rules that were set out in the RFP. Mr. Lemieux: As I mentioned, I will reiterate and repeat again that no First Nations casino will get the approval to go ahead and to enter into an agreement with the Manitoba Lotteries Corpora tion unless they meet all the strict guidelines of the Manitoba Gaming Control Commission.

With an implementation committee in place. they will ensure that those conditions are met. If they are not met, they are certainly not going to be able to go ahead. First Nations Casinos Minister's Awareness Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, it has been two weeks since the Minis ter responsible for gaming received the five casino proposals and the Nadeau and Freedman report. As of yesterday, he still admits that he has not read one of the proposals. This is a very serious issue.

This expansion of gambling in Manitoba is very serious, and I would ask this min ister: Will he commit today if he actually plans to read the five proposals and when he plans to accomplish that task? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Gaming Control Act): As I mentioned earlier, there will be an imple mentation committee put in place in the very near future. They will certainly ensure, looking at all the conditions for success, that all the proponents meet those before they are allowed to proceed.

Very clearly, that imple men tation committee will certainly ensure and certainly the Government, the buck stops with the Government, will ensure that that takes place. Mr. Loewen : Mr. Speaker, this is a very serious issue. This is a min ister that will not read. He will not let the proponents talk. I am going to ask the Minis ter if he will not read the reports, if he will not table the reports, what is he going to do to let Manitobans know what is coming down the pipe in terms of expanding gambling in this province? Mr. Lemieux: I thank the Member opposite for the question.

Now here is a statement coming from a former government that expanded gaming on McPhillips and Regent without any consu ltation whatever. Here is a group of people that when a li quor licence. for example, in Cross Lake was refused to one person and then another person. a member of their party, all of a sudden gets the hotel, they issue a licence. Hypocrisy, Mr. Speaker. Hypocrisy. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, we have a min ister who continues to look in the rear-view mirror ins tead of ahead like Manitobans would lik e him to. Economic Impact Study Mr.

John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I would ask this minis ter, since he will not tell Manitobans what is in the proposals, since he will not release the proposals to Manitobans, will he commit to having an independent, thorough economic study and a social impact study prior to moving any further with the expansion of gambling in Manitoba. * (1 4:00) Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Norman Asselstine, John Borody, Jan Coll ins, Susan Darvill, Laurie Davidson, Del oitte and Touche, Mr. Eric Luke, Wilf Falk,

June 14 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2627 Dale Fuga, David Greenwood, all of these people have looked into these proposals very, very carefully, looked at the criteria and deter mined that these particular proposals are the best possible proposals out of the 12 . We have gone from 62 First Nations down to 12 First Nations and now down to 5. These proposals now have been given an opportunity to go forward and make the best case for successful casino projects. The implementation committee will make sure that they meet the conditions for success, and not only that, Mr.

Speaker, they will have to be in accordance with the laws of the land. Before they go ahead to proceed, they will have to satisfy all the regulatory and compliance requirements before the MGCC will give them a licence to proceed. Global Warming Manitoba Reduction Strategy Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, global warming is an important subject for the Manitoba Legislature. Perhaps today with our wet weather it is particularly relevant since recent models of global warming predict that there will be, as temperatures get warmer, more wet weather in southern Manitoba.

My question today for the Minister of Conservation deals with an important component of his sustainable development strategy, the development of a Manitoba approach to address global warming to meet the Kyoto targets for emissions of greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and methane, an effort that will be a major challenge for our province and will require major changes in our transportation and agricultural industries. Can the Minister indicate what steps his government will ask industry to take in order to meet the Kyoto targets? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conser vation): Mr.

Speaker, I want to thank the Member for that question. I want to also advise him that our government is, of course, very concerned about the risk we face here in Manitoba from climate change. Some of you, some of the members on the opposite side might be aware that Manitoba has been engaged in a strategy to implement some of the programs that have been developed or suggested by the federal government. The federal government, as the Member might know, signed the Kyoto agreement, I believe, in 19 97.

When the federal government signed that agreement, it of course signalled its intention to ratify and implement the related requirements from that agreement in order to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases. I want to assure the Member that Manitoba will take every step to ensure that if Canada decides to ratify the agreement, we will do our part to become part of the national solution. Mr.

Gerrard: My supplementary to the Minister of Conservation: How, I ask the Minister, presuming that his government's goal is to increase production and employment in our agricultural and transportation sectors, will the Minister's plan reduce emissions even as output increases? Mr. Lathlin: I think the Member knows, and I know other people in this Chamber know that in Manitoba we have been aware for quite a while now of the rapidly growing transport and live stock industries, particularly in the agricultural, energy and transportation sectors, which could be impacted by greenhouse gas mitigation measures.

So we are continuing to work with the federal government in a co-operative way to make sure that we have an input into that federal process and so that Manitoba could benefit from such mitigation measures. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, since more wet weather in spring is predicted by the models of global warming, my second supplementary is: What are his plans to improve water manage ment, drainage and irrigation in southwestern Manitoba where farmers are very concerned about their water-logged fields? Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Speaker, I believe the Member is aware that we have proposed legislation to the very issue that he raises. If the legislation gets through this forum here, then we will be in a position to more properly address the problems that the Member has raised here. Flooding Agricultural Disaster Assistance Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): In regard to all the wet weather that we have seen in the last

2628 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I 4, 2000 couple of days, it is very evident that the Prime Minis ter, when he visited Manitoba, did not recognize the importance of the disaster that had happened in I 999. It is clearly evident that there was no communi cation between his colleagues and the Prime Minis ter and that his coll eagues did not inf orm him that there had been a decl aration of disaster. I want to ask this minis ter, the Min ister of Agricul ture (Ms.

Wowchuk), whether she is prepared to go back to Ottawa to try and impress upon the Prime Minis ter and his staff and the Minis ter of Agricult ure that we indeed did have a disaster and that it is indeed time that Ottawa came to the table and that the Province of Manitoba clearly ind icate their support of those people who suffered a disaster in 19 99 regarding the flooding. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Highways and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat surprised that the Member did not acknowledge that both the Mini ster of Agri culture and I did go to Ottawa.

We met with Minis ter Axworthy, Minis ter Duhamel and Minis ter Va nclief , and I suspect one of the problems is the fact that the Min ister responsible for emergency measures has now-and, by the way, I have written seven times to that minis ter, and he has refused to meet. Perhaps if that min ister, Minis ter Eggleton, would actually have the courtesy to meet with the Province of Manitoba, he might then get the information to pass on to the Prime Min ister who was cl early in error the other day when he spoke here in Manitoba. Mr. Jack Penner: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Min ister, then, would care to table those seven documents that he is referring to and the letters that he has written. I was pleased that the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Selin ger) said a few weeks ago that this government was prepared to put money on the table and to make it happen, and I quote: We were ready to do our part to make that happen, said the Minis ter- Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Govern ment House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Would you please ask the Member to formulate his question and put his question without a

preamble. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Emerson, on the same point of order? Mr. Jack Penner: Mr. Speaker, no, I have no point of order. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Government House Leader, Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. *** Mr. Speaker: I would ask the Honourable Member to please put his question. Mr. Jack Penner: Mr. Speaker, I will ask, then, whether the Minis ter is prepared to go back to Ottawa and ask for fundin g to support the farmers and the busine sspeople in Manitoba who suffered flooding in 19 99, and will she do so before the adjournment of the House in the middle ofthis month? * (14:10 ) Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat surprised that the Member does not seem to be aware of some of the actions we have taken. We did go to Ottawa. The federal government has said no.

They have said no to 90- 1 0; they have said no to 50-50. I want to stress again that the Province of Manitoba, this province, has had $70 mill ion on the table, $50 mill ion of which is creditable under AI DA, $20 mill ion of which is stand-alone. There is $20 mil li on, 10 0% provincial funding on the table. We believe the federal government should share its responsibili ty for the disaster, some thing that was already decl ared by the Minis ter. They should be doing more, and we have already communi cated that to them. They are the ones saying no.

June 14 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2629 Fiscal Stabilization Fund Agricultural Disaster Assistance Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I am wondering, then, whether the Premier would table the letter that he wrote to the Prime Minister yesterday and whether he would indicate that they are now willing to go it alone and put their hand in the Fiscal Stabilization Fund and put the money on the table for this Province to indicate clearly that we are committed to providing assistance to those people in this province that suffered during the 19 99 flood. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday I indicated to the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Mitchelson) that we would, in fact, ensure that the Prime Minister had the letter and table it in this House. I expect we can do that tomorrow through the Minister. Midwifery Act Proclam ation Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Health if he will tell the House about the impact of the long-awaited proclamation of The Midwifery Act on the women and families all across the province of Manitoba. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, as I said at the proclamation, indeed it had been a long-anticipated and long-awaited process in Manitoba that commenced in '94, that in fact was passed unanimously in this Chamber by all members. It was steered through by three former Health ministers prior to myself and came to culmination with the proclamation of the Bill that recognized the work that women have done in the community- An Honourable Member: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): I was wondering if the Honourable Minister could inform the House if this is a government-paid ad or if he is answering a question. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Govern ment House Leader, on the same point of order? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): The same point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is the Opposition House Leader rising on a matter that is in no way any point of order. All it says is that they feel bad that they never asked the question. It is an important question. Mr. Speaker: Order.

The Honourable Official Opposition House Leader does not have a point of order. * * * Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minister of Health to continue with the answer. Mr. Chomiak: I note the Member stood up after I just commended the three former ministers, and perhaps reference to former ministers of Health is something I should not do. But, on this point, I wanted to commend the work of the midwifery association, the steering committee and the implementation committee because it is a significant day for families and women in Manitoba.

Twenty-six midwives will be available to women of Manitoba, sixteen within the city of Winnipeg, ten outside of the city of Winnipeg. We funded almost $2 million from this year's budget for that initiative, and we look forward to positive developments and further expansion in this area in the future. I commend all members for their support and the work of the midwives of Manitoba in this regard. Selkirk Mental Health Centre Crisis Unit Mr.

Edward Helwer (Gimli): We have raised the issue of the Selkirk crisis unit twice before in this House, and the people of Selkirk are still waiting to hear from this government when the unit will again be operating at capacity. Patient well-being has already been jeopardized with the early release of some crisis patients.

2630 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14 , 2000 I would like to ask the Minister of Health what safeguards he has in place for patients that are released early from the crisis unit, given that one of the patients has alr eady attempted suicide. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): As I indica ted previously in this House, there are contingencies that are put in place for all those patients, and it is a concern. Of course, we are dealing with an existing contract that was entered into. We are now in negotiations with respect to the contract in order to provide provisions.

But the Member must know that over the years there has been a gap that has formed as a result of difficulties, which we are now faced with trying to overcome, a decade of difficulties. But we have put in place contingencies. It is unfortunate that, because of the nursing shortage and demand that was built up the past 10 years, we are faced with this situation. We were faced with this situation last year, Mr. Speaker. The only difference this year is we are negotiating, and we have put in pla ce a pla n for nurses.

But with respect to the specific patients, there is coll aboration with the various facilities as well as the crisis intervention to ensure that all of the difficulties-and it is a serious problem- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Helwer: The crisis centre has been closed for eight days al ready this month. Can the Minister tell us what he is doing to provide alternative care for these patients who have been turned away from the crisis stabili zation centre? Mr.

Chomiak: As I indica ted in my previous response, special provisions have been made with the acute care facilities as we ll as with the crisis intervention teams in this regard. It is not a good situation. It is a problem. There are problems throughout the province as a result of gaps that have grown and contracts that were entered into previously. We are negotiating. We have a plan in place. I hope as our nursing pla n which is not supported by members opposite and I wish they would give us their support; it might help it along.

As we move through this, we will be able to deal with these issues so that we are not faced with that situation. We dealt with the crisis stabilization at Sara Riel in Winnipeg. We are dealing with the situation here as the contract is winding up, Mr. Speaker, but there are contingencies that are in place for patients. It is not the optimum situation, but we are doing- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Helwer: Can the Minister of Health tell the residents of Sel kirk-this was an award-winning mental health crisis centre-when will this unit have the nurses that it needs to remain open? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, I want the Member to understand the reason there is a problem with nurses is there is a gap. The nurses have left the centre because there is a gap between the wages that the nurses, in a contract they are involved in that was negotiated by the previous government, was entered into, and the situation now. We are facing that shortage across the province. It is a result of I 0 years of neglect, but we are going to- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Speaker is standing. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, As I have indicated, we have put resources in place and contingencies in place, and we are involved in negotiations to try to negotiate a collec tive agreement that will see retention of these nurses. But I have to add that 10 years of neglect by members opposite is a problem that is confronting all Manitoban s. Fortunately, we have a plan in place, our five-point plan, and I wish members opposite could support that plan instead of continuing their obstruction in that regard. Highway Construction Program Budget Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Highways released some inf ormation on the 2000-200 1 Highways construction budget. His news release states that the provincial Highways construction budget for 2000-200 1 is $20 1 million. This seems like a highly in flated figure. Can the Minister confirm that the actual Highways

June 14 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 263 1 construction budget is only $1 00 million, actually $10 million less than the previous year? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Highways and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I realize the Member is the newly appointed Highways critic, so I think we can all forgive him if he fails to recognize that we are following the same procedure that has been followed for a decade and that the Highways capital program for this year includes both this fiscal and next fiscal year.

That has been the case for the last 10 years, so I suspect the Member, who is the new Highways critic, was not aware of that. But we are following the same process. I might say a very well received capital program; I was in Winkler yesterday, Lac du Bonnet, Thompson, and Dauphin, very well received by the people of Manitoba. Previously Approved Projects Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, the Minister indicated in his press release that 75 percent of previously approved projects will be proceeded with. Can he advise which ones have been deleted or delayed? * (14: 20) Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister of Highways and Government Services): I can indicate there are a number of projects that will not be proceeding. There are a number of projects in the program, by the way, go back to as early as 19 94-95, that are not completed. I can indicate a significant number of them have proceeded, and also in the new program we have brought in some very excellent new projects, including the main street in Winkler, a very excellent development just outside of Dauphin, a major program the people of Flin Flon have been waiting for for 15 years.

So we have a balance of the old program and the new program as well. Mr. Gilleshammer: Since the construction program was released after the Estimates for the Department were finished, can he forward which programs and which projects have been deleted? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I think the Member once again does not understand the process. I indicated that there are a number of projects that had been on the books well before we came into government. We have not been deleting projects from the program. The question obviously is those projects will be cash flowed. That was outlined in the information.

I can also get detailed information on the program for the Member because we are very proud of the fact that we have a very good representation of all parts of this province from north to south, something that did not happen for 11 years under the previous government. Mr. Speaker: Order. Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Canadian Hard of Hearing Conference Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Mr.

Speaker, there has been some commentary about me getting to my feet before everybody else, so I was trying to give an opportunity to other honourable colleagues to be first today, but seeing as how they have been so gracious, I would like to bring an event that was hosted in my constituency to the knowledge of the honourable members. I was proud to attend the Canadian Hard of Hearing Association provincial conference in Southport conference centre near Portage la Prairie on May 12 through 14. It was my pleasure to bring greetings to the delegates of this conference.

By choosing to host their annual conference outside of Winnipeg, the Manitoba

chapter of the Canadian Hard of Hearing Association hoped to attract more rural people who may not be aware of the services available to the hard of hearing and the late deafened. It is estimated that 10 percent of Canadians have some form of hearing loss significant enough to interfere with their daily lives. Some of the topics discussed at the conference include the impact of hearing loss on individuals and families, hearing responsibilities, medical aspects and research, and advances in hearing aid technology. In addition to informative workshops, the conference included the banquet, entertainment and awards presentation at the Manitoba

chapter

2632 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14 , 2000 of the Canadian Hard of Hearing Association annual general meeting. I would like to thank the Manitoba

chapter of the Canadian Hard of Hearing Association for choosing Southport's fine facilities to host their annual provincial conference. I would also like to commend them for the important and valued work they do for Manitobans who suffer from hearing loss. We who suffer from hearing loss appreciate their efforts so that we can continue to live active and fulfilling lives. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Arborg Bifrost Summer Games Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, I rise today to draw the attention of the House to an event I attended last week in the community of Arborg referring to the opening ceremonies for the Arborg Bifrost Summer Games. Sports to be hosted by the communities of Arborg and Riverton are softball, archery, beach volleyball, soccer, the triathlon, water skiing, golf and special-olympics soccer. The winning participants of these events are to move on to the next level to be held in Neepawa later this summer.

On behalf of the communities involved and the organizing com mittee, I would like to thank the title corporate sponsor, Manitoba Telecom Services, and the presenting sponsors, Summit Stitchwear & Pro motions, Manitoba Hydro, Manitoba Lotteries Corporation, Manitoba Public Insurance and Arctic Ice. The ceremonies included an entertainment component in the form of the Ashern Jazz Band and the locally based Icelandic Youth Choir. Mr. Speaker, we live at a time when people in general are becoming more sedentary as our world becomes more technologically based.

With the genesis of the Internet and more user friendly computer systems, our youth are given the opportunity to live in a virtual cyber world, which is very rewarding and stimulating from an intellectual perspective but detracts from time spent developing their physical attributes. On this basis I congratulate the athletes and coaches for participating in this particular event in that it sets a good example for youth in general and develops in the athletes personally characteristics such as good sportsmanship and fair play which will benefit them for the rest of their lives.

Physical development in the formative years is a sound foundation upon which to base one's life and is also beneficial to society as a whole in terms of reduced public health costs in later years. To the athletes, the organizers and the sponsors, I say well done. Thank you. Dr. Clay Gilson Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Dr. Clay Gilson passed away this weekend. Today I want to take a few moments to praise the life and contribution of Dr. Clay Gilson to not only agriculture in Manitoba but all of Canada. Doctor Gilson was a great inspiration to many of us. and he will be forever remembered.

He was born in 19 26 in Deloraine, Manitoba, which is now part of my Arthur Virden constituency. Doctor Gilson grew up during the Depression years of his family's farm. The experience of the Great Depression led him to academics. to pursue the causes of hardship for his people and his industry. He would eventually earn his PhD and begin his long and successful career in the study of agricultural economy. In his roles as professor and admini strator at the University of Manitoba, Doctor Gilson always worked tirelessly to prepare Canadian agriculture for transition to the new century.

He was and continues to be widely recognized for his talents as a scholar and a teacher. Later in his career, he served on a large number of boards and committees of agricultural agencies, returning his substantial knowledge to the industry, as has been announced in this Legislature today. Doctor Gilson touched many people during his lifetime, and I am proud to say that I am one of those.

Doctor Gilson chaired the Agricultural Research and Development Initiative, a diversi fication initiative of which I was a member and had the opportunity in the last two years to be a part of, and I was extremely proud to have worked under him as the chair of that committee in trying to promote diversification in our

June 14 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2633 ind ustry. That was the tireless efforts of a retired gentleman who wanted to do more for his province and probab ly had already done more than many will ever dream of. One of the opportunities that I had, though, that I was proud to be associated with, as I look back, and I can tell by the rust on these pages, Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity as Vice President of the Manitoba Farm Business Association, in 19 84, and the date is January 11 . We asked Doctor Gils on at that time to speak about agriculture at the end of the century. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I hate to interrupt the Honourable Member, but the time has expired. The Honourable Member could ask leave to continue. Does the Honourable Member have le ave to continue? [Agreed] Mr. Maguire: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I will just be a moment. I had the opportunity of asking Doctor Gilson to speak about the future of the agricu ltural indus try in Manitoba, and because this is so pertinent to the things that have happened over the last 16 years, I went back and looked at this, as I have many times.

One of the things that he said is: The impetus for acceler ated technological change in agriculture will come from genetic engineering laboratories, earth-orbiting satell ites, laser beams or fifth-generation microcomputers. No one can predict with any confidence at this time where this impetus will take us, but it is inevitable that rural people will be confronted with a complex and staggering array of inn ovations and new possibilities in their farming operations. He went on to say, Mr.

Speaker, that at times changes in mon etary policy or the international exchange rate or a crisis around the Strait of Hormuz in the Persian Gulf can have more impact on a farmer's revenue or his expenses than anything he might do on the farm. The individual farmer will have to be very well inf ormed about national and in ternational events in terms of his day-to-day management decision making.

The chief decision maker in the modem corporation has at his disposal an array of professional and technological staff to assist him with his business decisions, and he went on to say that farmers will need that kind of expertise in the future. In addition to his own formal training and management experience, the farm businessman, during the next 10 to 15 years, will have to depend increasingly on the advice and professional expertise of experts, whom he will consult in the fields of accounting, financial management, commercial law, computers, in surance, estate planning and marketing.

How true these have all become. Just in closing, I want to say that his last statement to that convention was: Farming by the end of the century should be an exciting business. It will not be a business for the timid or the faint-hearted. For those with the proper quali fications and a sense of adventure, the rewards will be substantial. Mr. Speaker, he was a loving family man, a professional of true integrity and someone this province can always be proud of. We will all miss him. Please join me in offering my sincer est condolences to the Gilson family. Thank you. * (1 4:30) Midwifery Act Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I want to recognize an important event for Manitoba women, the proclamation of The Midwifery Act and the legalization of mid wifery. Midwives and their supporters have waited many years for this. With this proclamation, our government has broadened the care-of options available to women and their famil ies at this important and exciting time-lif e-changing time, of child birth, pregnancy, and the transition to motherhood and, indeed, parenthood.

Midwives, as part of the health system, will offer specialized education and support to those who want to enhance the level of care before, during and after the birth of their child ren. To provide midwifery care, we have approved almost $2 milli on this year to support the imple mentation of 26 fully funded midwifery positions in Manitoba. Sixteen of these positions are alloca ted for the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority and ten to the rural and northern health authorities.

2634 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I 4, 2000 Throughout the world, midwifery is recognized as an autonomous health care pro fession. Canada is one of the la st industrialized countries to regula te midwifery service, and midwifery is now regula ted in several provinces, including Manitoba, British Columbia , Alber ta, Ontario and Quebec. We believe that Manit oba is set to have one of the best midwifery care models in all ofNorth America.

I want to take a moment to recognize all of those who have made midwifery care a reality in Manitoba, including the Midwif ery Imple mentation Counc il, practising midwives and their supporters and all of the members of the Legisla ture who una nimously supported mid wifery legisla tion when it was introduced in I 997. I also want to congratulate those midwives who have completed the certification process and will soon be catching babies across the province of Manitoba. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sustainable Development Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I rise to say a few words about sustainable development in Man itoba, and I do this to pay tribute to the late Dr. Cla y Gilson who was a long-time member of the Manitoba Round Table on the Environment, first as the Environment and the Economy and then as the Round Table on Sustainable Development. Doctor Gilson played an important role in contributing to an understanding of sustainable development and, indeed, in contributing to the development of what we have now, The Sustainable Development Act, which came into force almost two years ago.

Sustainable develop ment is a central and core component of what we need for the future of Manitoba as we expand the economy, as we grow traditional and new ind ustries, ensuring that we, in fact, have an approach which is sustainable, which takes into account the needs of envir onmental concerns, the envir onmental potential problems and plans for them and mitigates them, then the sustainable development process is tremendously important. I was pleased earlier this week when the Premier (Mr.

Doer) acknowledged and com mitted that he would bring forward the sustainable development strategy, for indeed the Act says very cl early that within two years of the coming into force of the Act, the Province will establish the sustainable development strategy in consult ation with the Manitoba round table.

Indeed, we look forward to the development not only of the strategy, but of the component strategies which are part of the strategy; component strategies which the Act clearly says will lay out the strategic plans for achieving sustainabil ity in specific econom ic, environ mental, resource, human health and social policy sectors identified in the sustainable development strategy. There is a commitment to a strong future for Manitoba, a sustainable future. We await, with consid erable eagerness, the strategy to be presented within the next few weeks. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Fina nce (Mr. Seli nger), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CULTURE, HERITAGE AND TOURISM * (14: 40) Mr. Chair person (Harry Schellenberg): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply pl ease come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in room 254 will resume consi deration of the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Tourism. Yesterday the Committee agreed to not pass li nes 2.(

b) and (c)( l) . When the Committee last sat, it had been considering item 2. Cul ture, Heritage and Recre ation Programs (

e) Arts Branch

(2) Other Expenditures $1 39,600 on page 52 of the Main Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): We were discussing the Capital line, I believe, under

(2) June 14 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2635 Other Expenditures yesterday, and my question is: What cons titutes the incr ease year over year? Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Now, I believe that we addressed this yesterday and it was the purchase of art? {interjection] From 28 to 30.4, I und erstand it to be the inc rease required for office equipment. I wonder while I have the mike if I could address one other matter, and that is, as you have pointed out, Mr. Chair, yesterday the Committee agreed to defer passing 14 .2.(

b) Grants to Cultural Organiza tions and 14. 2.(

c) Manitoba Arts Council, the Manitoba Arts Council line, because the critic indi cated she wanted to consult with her collea gues as to whether they had further questions. I would like to ask the Member if she has consulted with her colle agues, and can we now pass these lines? Mrs. Dacquay: I believe there will be further questions, and I am not prepared at this time to pass those lines. Ms.

McGifford: I would also lik e to add that the lines relating to Capital Grants, which are on page 68 of the Estimates supplement, have traditionally been consid ered following the lines for Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs division. and this is because it allows department staff to be present for areas for which they are responsible so that they do not have to return later. I wonder if I can ask the critic if he can agree to follow this traditional practice and deal with Capital Grants, lines 14 .6.(

a) Cul tural Organiza tions, 14 .6.(

b) Heritage Buil dings, and 14 .6.(

c) Community Places Program while the staff are present. Mrs. Dacquay: The Minis ter is wanting to have discussion on other areas, and I assume it is under Historic Resources on page 37 of the Supplementary Estimates. Is that correct? One of the consi derations? Ms. McGifford: No, indeed, it is not on the page that the Member indi cated. It is on page 68 of the book that the Member has. Mrs. Dacquay: Just for cla rification, again now have the appropriate reference number, 6.

Capital Grants, and the reasoning is that the Minis ter would like that discussion to follow this section, Other Expenditures, because the staff that is here now is also responsible for that? * (14 :50) Ms. McGifford: Thank you, Mr. Chair. It can come after the discussion of the entire Culture, Heritage and Recreation branch. We would like it to come not only before Tourism but before Inf ormation Resources, Business Services, Translation Services, Pro vincial Archives, because that requires new staff,

whereas if we can do it right after, we can work with the staff who are here, and therefore we will impinge the least on the time of the staff. I wonder also if the Member would agree that we could deal with the Arts Branch by the end of the day, so that her members have the opportunity to participate and staff can get back to their regula r jobs by the end of today. Mrs. Dacquay: At this point in time, I cannot specifically respond because I have no idea how many questions and how long it might take.

I think it is within the purview of the critic to be able to take time to thoroughly examine every aspect of the Budget document that he or she wishes. Mr. Chairperson: Is there leave following the completion of 14 .2.(

k) to skip ahead and do all of 14 .6. Capital Grants? [Agreed] Ms. McGifford: Since the Member opposite does not feel at this point she can indi cate when her members might be here in order to discuss the Arts Branch and allow us to complete our discussions of Culture, Heritage and Recreation, I wonder if the Member would agree to our revisiting this subject before we close pro ceedings this afternoon. Mrs. Dacquay: I am not quite certain I fully under stand the Min ister's question, but if she is asking if I would entertain -[interjection] No, I cannot. I cannot guarantee passing all of these lines by the end of today. I am sorry. I cannot make that commitment.

2636 LEGISLAT IVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14 , 2000 Mr. Cha irperson: I understand there is not leave. Ms. McGifford: Well, I wonder if the Member opposite could give any indica tion as to how long this particular branch might be here? Again, I am thinking of the staff and their need at some point to get back to their regular jobs? Mrs. Dacquay: Well, I personal ly feel that the Minis ter is putting undue pressure on.

I recognize everybody is very busy, but this is the only opportunity afforded the critic to question the current budget, and I am not aware that there has been quite as much pressure as I interpret the Min ister is implying in trying to put time lines on discussion of the Estimates. I am willing to co-operate as best I can, but for me to make a specific commitment at this time, I am just not able to do that because I have no idea how many of my colle agues will be joining me shortly to ask questions on some of these lines in this particular section.

I would assume that I will make every effort to try to complete the discussion on this by the end of the day, but I am not prepared to put on the record a specific commitment. If I also just might add, we are wasting an awful lot of valuable time and staff time by debating this and arguing it. I have made a commitment that I will do my utmost best to move this along expeditiously, but I am not prepared to put on the record that I will specifically finish with any

section by the end of today. Ms. McGifford: Well, I do want to point out to the Member opposite that during the five years I was the critic the need never arose, because I proceeded line by line and passed a line before we moved into the next. If my coll eagues wanted to ask questions, they were expected to be there when I was on the line. Given that this department is willing to be flexible, I thought that the Member might urge her members to come in and ask the questions while the staff is here, but if she chooses not to, as she points out, there is very li ttle I can do about it, so let us get on with it. Mr.

Chair person: The Member for Seine River, shall we begin our questioning? Mrs. Dacquay: Yes. I asked a question previously on the capital and was led to believe yesterday that that figure, 30.4, represented acquisition of art. Today, when I asked for the difference year over year, I am told that the reason for the increase is because there was an acquisition of office equipment. Ms.

McGifford: The explanation is that 28 is for art and the bump-up to 30.4 is for office equipmen t, but while we are on the subject of art, perhaps I could take the opportunity to address some of the matters that were raised yesterday with regard to art. People here might remember that yesterday the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) spoke about the art inve ntory in the Legisla ture, and in my opinion put some questionable points on the record. I suppose if she wishes to behave that way, that is certainly her prerogative.

Person ally, I would like to leave this particular kind of questioning and move on to a more professional and informative approach, one that might be truly useful to the critic, that might give her some inf ormation. But let me return to some of the questions that the Member for River East put on the record. First of all, the Member for River East asked about a news release and inf erred, pardon me, implied that there was a news release under my signature, and indeed, there was no news release under my signature. There was no news release issued in my name.

There was no news release from government regarding the art bank or the art inventory. * (15: 00) My understanding of what transpired is that, as I explained yesterday, I considered it my duty when I was appointed Minis ter of Cul ture, Heritage and Tourism to under take an art inven tory, and the inventory was in the fall shortly after elections. At that poin t, two women were conducting the art inventory, and I understand that they are going about the Legisla ture with pen and pencil making notations, et cetera, encouraged some interest, or

June 14 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2637 the press became in terested in it and asked them what they were doing. They said they were doing an art inventory. The Arts Branch was contacted and the Arts Branch gave some inf ormation about the numbers of pieces which at that time we could not account for. There was certainly never any ins inuation that people had hijacked them, stolen them, mistreated them or anything else. Inf ormation was given; information was filtered through the media; and inf ormation appeared in a certain manner in the press.

I remember being interviewed in my office by I cannot recall which television channels they were, but I do remember speaking and describing what the art bank was and tal king about how pieces of art are numbered and how the number is on the back of the art. Obviously, it is not going to be on the front, where it would compromise the piece of art. I remember very clearly pointing out that pieces of art could go astray. They could have been put in cupboards.

In fact, I think some of them eventually showed up in washrooms, where I suppose the initial inv entory people felt that they did not look initially in washrooms. I cannot real ly explain that. It probably does not need any explana tion. I spoke about four pieces of art that had not been lo cated yesterday. The Member for River East said that the Minis ter of Government Services (Mr. Ashton) had in fact said all of the materials had been found. Indeed in Hansard the Minis ter of Highways said: I am pleased to report that we have traced virtually all of the paintings and other materials.

So indeed the Minis ter of Government Services did not say that they had all been found. He said that we had virtually traced all of the paintings. Now, as I pointed out, in fact we had traced all of the paintings. The materials that we had not traced were three pieces of ceramic and one wooden wall hanging. I think that yesterday the former Minis ter of Urban Affairs identified that he may now have one of the pieces that we thought was missing. So this is the way these things tum up, quite accidental ly, and in some cases when we are least looking.

This is what I have always maintained, that the pieces would eventually tum up. I spoke to the Min ister of Highways (Mr. Ashton). He assures me that he never offered an apology because there was no need to. He did not do anything. So I do not know how the Member for River East determined that the Minis ter of Government Services (Mr. Ashton) offered an apology for misdemeanours. Also, the Member opposite appeared to be very curious about the occupants of room 226.

I would like to indica te that up until 19 88, room 226 was a room used by Government Services; from 19 88 to 19 96 by the Liberal caucus; from 19 96 to '98, Tom Carson; from 19 98 to 19 99, Hugh El iasson; after which point it was taken over by Communications. The piece in room 226, I am inf ormed, was not in 226 in 19 98. I would just like to give that information. I might add as well that the Arts Branch does not know when the prior in ventory took place. We cannot tell from our data bank. The photos are on the Internet, just to give that information.

But I know that members are undoubtedly very curious about the art bank. I wanted to give some details of our recent art purchase tour. As we indi cated, the department purchases art on an annual basis for the Government of Manitoba collection. The budget is approximately $27,000. There are several sources of purchase: regional juried art exhibitions across the province, for example; the annual juried Manitoba Society of Artists exhibition; a tour to commercial gal leries in Winnipeg; the art rental and sales outlets at the Winnipeg Art Galle ry; and the Art Galle ry of Southwestern Manitoba.

Recently I attended one of the juried Manitoba art shows, I guess it was a week ago, the 3rd or 4th of June, opening in Eaton Place. In fact I attended with a staff member who is an expert on art. She made several suggestions as to pieces that we might purchase. The most recent tour to galleries took place in mid-March.

The commercial galleries visited incl uded the Site Gallery; Warehouse Artworks, located in the Exchange; the Art Coll ectors Club at 42 1 McDermot; Galle ry 757; the Stonewa re Gal lery on Corydon A venue; Crafts pace, which is of course the retail outlet of the Manitoba Crafts Counc il on Academy Road; the Canadian Plains

2638 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANIT OBA June 14 , 2000 Gallery featuring art by Aboriginal artists-it is on Higgins A venue; the Upstairs Galle ry on Edmonton Street; the David Rice studio on Osborne Street; the Winnipeg Art Galle ry's art rental and sales; La Boutique and retail outlet at the Franco-Manitoba Cult ural Centre; and the Art Galler y of Southwestern Manit oba, who sent in slides of artists' work for our consi deration. The art purchasing committee consi sted of the foll owing people: Linda Asper who is the MLA for Riel and acts as legisla tive assistant for me, Dr.

Sarah McKinnon, who is the Acting Dean, Faculty of Arts and Science at the University of Winnipeg and also the art curator at that university; Dale Amundson, who is the Director of the School of Fine Ar t at the Un iversity of Manitoba; James Patten, Curator of Contem porary Art and Photography at the Winnipeg Art Gal lery; and Judith Baldwin, who is my special assistant. We also had a staffperson go along with the group in order to provide advice as to what materials were currently part of our art bank.

As a result of this tour, 21 new works were purchased: an acrylic, Hills at Night by Karel Funk; another acrylic, Night Wound, by Colle en Cutschal l; two silk aluminum panels by Aurora Lan din; a silk screen by Bill Lobchuk; a raku pot by Bud Gilli es; another acrylic painting, Lucy helps dad build a fence by Marya Za jac; a sil k screen by Len Anthony; a beige ceramic pot by Dwane Perkins; a ceramic dish with caribou by Maryann Gopalkrisha; an acrylic painting, Winter Wind, by Il ona Stanley, a photograph of the burning of the Lela nd Hotel by Jacques St.

Goddard; an acrylic painting by Tony Tascona; three wood panel paintings from Louise Jonasson's 18 knots; an abstract landscape by Wanda Koop; a ceramic sunflower by Bud Gilli es; a stonewa re lid ded jar by Kevin Conlan; and lastly, a red patch porcelain bowl by Kevin Stafford. One of the important criteria in the selection of art for purchase is, of course, to achieve a variety of subjects in media, while recognizing the lim itations of ongoing public display. Priority is placed on assuring that the colle ction represents the best of Manitoba artists and artworks within the bounds of our available resources.

Other criteria may include the art work's capacity to reflect the character of Manitoba and its diversity in form, style or content and to depict Manitoba themes or Manit oba subjects. When visiting galleries, the committee, which inc ludes a strong representation of professionals in the visual arts community, as I have indi cated, visits art galleries which have a history of showing and promoting professional Manitoba artists and which host an annual program of exhibitions.

So, in this purchase tour, we support not only the artists in Manitoba but galleries in Manitoba. * (15:10 ) The works purchased have to be by a li ving Manito ban-at le ast that was the decision that we made this year, and I think it is the decision that has general ly been made in the past. The artist resides here now or has completed a major body of work while living in Manitoba. In making the final choices, the committee's del iberations cover many factors, including how the works will complement or complete the existing col lection or representa tion by that particula r artist.

So that is basically the information that I wanted to put on the record with regard to the Manitoba art bank. I am sure that members opposite agree with me that the purchase of art and the main tenance of this art on behalf of the public is important not only in that we promote art but that we preserve art for future genera tions. I know that, in a past life, I have studied art, not visual art but literary arts, and I have always been of the opinion that art is a great healer, a great promoter of well being.

I think if we study art, if we return to basically very primitive societies, we will find that the whole notion of shamanism, for exa mple, begins with art. One book that I certainly recommend to members opposite as very important in understanding the history of art is a book by a writer called An dreas Lamo [phonetic]. It is called Shamanism, The Beginnings of Art, and it talks about art as a healer and a promoter of

June 14 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2639 psychological health, as well as physical well being. I know that shamanism is still practised in many areas of the world today and that art continues to be produced by shamans. I suppose we might see the artists who are practising in contemporary society as promoters of health and healing and modem equival ents of shamans, or, as James Joyce called them, the priesthood of artists. So with those remarks, I will end. Mrs. Dacquay: I want to thank the Minis ter for her very lengthy explanation of the process for the acquisition of art.

I do have two questions relative to the process. Do the galleries submit their interest in having their facil ities visited, or does the committee make a selection? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I am advised that it is generally a combin ation of the committee making a decision to visit a particular gallery and particula r galleries voicing interest in having their galleries visited. But the important criterion is that the galleries that are visited are galleries that have held exhibitions throughout the year, that have an exhibition program.

So, by doing this, by exhibiting Manitoba art throughout the year, these galleries have shown their commit ment to Manitoba art and Manitoba artists. Mrs. Dacquay: I am somewhat familia r with this, although I think maybe the process has changed just a little bit, because in my former life, when I was first elec ted, I had the honour and privilege of serving on the art acquisition committee. I have to say that I thoroughly enjoyed it, so I was just trying to refresh my memory in terms of the process. I have one further question relative to process. Does the committee have the autonomy to make the final decision?

Do they outright buy the art, in other words, when they visit the establishment, or do they catalogue it, make recommendations, then the Department goes through the various pieces that the committee recommends, and then a final decision is made after that? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, my department is following the same process as the previous admini stration. That is, the committee makes recommendations to the Minis ter and the Mini ster approves or disapproves the recommen dations. I would like to tell the Member that I follow the recommendations of the committee in every case. Mrs.

Dacquay: I will defer now to my coll eague from Fort Whyte. Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Chairman, I have a few questions. Yesterday, when I attended the committee la ter in the day, the issue regarding the missing works of art that was broadcast not only locally but certainly picked up by national papers was discussed at this committee. I guess I would just like to start off with some cla rification from the Minis ter. As I understood it yesterday, there was originally thought to be 10 4 pieces that were unaccounted for. Is it correct now that all but two have been accounted for? Ms. McGifford: Mr.

Chair, now we are seeing one of the problems that arises when members pop in and out because I already addressed this question in detail this afternoon. Originall y, when the invent ory was taken in October, November, December of this year, it appeared that there were-now I do not want to use the word "missing" and I have never used the word "missing"-1 04 pieces unaccounted for. I just would like to run through what transpired for the Member since he was not here when I did it before.

That is to say that during this process, during the inventory, two individuals, one from Government Services, one from the Arts Branch were conducting an in ventory in the Legisla ture. The press, seeing these two women going in and out of offices, writing down things, et cetera, expressed interest. The press was told that they were doing an inventory. The press contacted the Arts Branch and was told that the original go-round, the first go-round showed that we could not find 10 4 pieces of art. Now, the Arts Branch gave factual information. These were the circumstances. There were no insi nua tions.

There was no dire plot, as the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson), in her high-fl own rhetoric and in

2640 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June I4 , 2000 her confabulations and fabulations yesterday implied, nothing of that kind, simple factual information. If I seem cross, I am cross. You know, I would really like to get through this and move on with these Estimates. So I 04 pieces, as eff orts continued, as people responded and said: You know, I have a piece in my washroom; I opened my cupboard and found a bowl, the list dwindled and dwindled and dwindled, and finally, it turned out there were four pieces of art that we could not account for.

Yesterday, the former Min ister of Urban Affairs thought that he might have one of those pieces. I do not know if that has been verified or not. The Minis ter of Urban Affairs indeed does have one so now we are down to three pieces of art. So that is the story. * (15: 20) Mr. Loewen: I thank the Minis ter for that answer. It was, I thought, a fairly straightforward question. I am a li ttle confounded as to her diatribe. Certainly she has been in this House long enough to understand that there are other oblig ations that members have.

I guess we should apologize that we are not all able to sit here every hour of every day and listen to her brill iant answers, but sometimes these things happen. An Honourable Member: It would be worthwhile. Mr. Loewen: I can assure you.

So, anyway, now that we are here, I guess I am just trying to make sure that we have the facts right, something that obviously was not the case when a government memo obtained by the Free Press, contrary to what she says in terms of a couple of phone calls-I mean, we have it on record that there was a memo that was given to the Free Press-so I hope we can ask her indulgence if we try to get more inf ormation on the record in terms of what, to me, in particula r, being a new member, is a very substantive issue.

I hope she appreciates that, being a new member to the House, I was appalled at the time to learn that, in her opinion, in her department's optmon, there was artwork missing, very valuable artwork and historic artwork, and in particular being a new member with an office that was not able to get any artwork. I hope she can appreciate from my perspective that it would have been nice to know there were I 00 pieces around somewhere in closets and in different places that maybe someone could have accessed. But, in any event, I guess, also, maybe my understanding of the process is not cl ear.

Maybe the Minis ter can give me some more inf ormation on this at some time as well, but from what I under stand it is not her prerogative to determine when Estimates will end. Certainly we as opposition have the right to ask questions. It is not up to her to make the decision on whether they are matters that are serious or not. I think she should understand that if we are here asking questions it is because they are serious matters to us and to our constituents. All we are asking her to do is answer I think what are some fairly straightforward questions.

I certainly appreciate learning from her that there are still three pieces unaccounted for, and hopefully before too long they will be accounted for. I certainly hope that she has a bit of an appreciation as well for the fact that this story made the national press. I think that is of concern to all Manitoban s. It certainly was indica ted by a number of my constituents and other people throughout the province at the time.

I think to have in the national press that members of this government, of this Legislature, regardless of what party stripe they carry, be accused of misplacing, taking, leaving the building with artwork that belonged to the Government is a very, very serious matter. I would hope she would have some indulgence to our requests for inf ormation on this. I guess I will go back to the report in the Free Press, because I think that is where it started. Certainly the Free Press indica tes that they obtained a government memo. I wonder if the Minis ter would table that memo. Ms.

McGifford: I want to reiterate that there was no news release under my name. I have no knowledge of this particular memo the Member is talking about or of the Free Press. The Member may be interested in speaking to the Free Press. I cannot help him out.

June 14 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 264 1 Mr. Loewen: Well, I ask the Minis ter then, because she said that she had staff from the Arts Branch do an inventory. They were going around and I know they came to my office very briefly. It is not hard to tell from my humble abode that there is not any art there, and certainly no closet to hide it in. I guess I would find it incredible, if on asking her department to carry out such an inv entory, if something was not put on paper regarding the status of it.

I would ask the Minis ter maybe if she would consult with her staff to see if in fact there was anything in writing, either just within their working group or something that maybe was passed on to the Minis ter that she does not recall at this point. Whatever there is in writing, could she present it to this committee? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, having spoken to staff and consulted with staff, I am advised that there were likely a number of communications going back and forth.

I would just like to reiterate that I never released any documents, that there was no news release under my name or under the name of the Department. Mr. Loewen: Well, thank you. Just for the purposes of expediency, I will grant the Minis ter that there was no press release issued. We are not asking about a press release. What I am looking for is inf ormation regarding this matter. Obviously, there were in ternal memos within her department. Was the Min ister privy to this written communication? Ms. McGifford: Both myself and staff would have received communications. We would have seen in formation, et cetera.

In any interview with the media, myself and my staff certainly impressed on the media the importance of this being a process, and a process that was not complete. As we know, it is still in process and still is not complete. Mr. Loewen: I appreciate that information. If that is what the Minis ter and her staff have told the press, I am certainly not questioning that. I would ask the Minis ter: Would she share those written communi cations between her and her staff with this committee? Ms. McGifford: I would certainly have staff review communic ations and apply the FIPPA rules and make decisions from there. Mr.

Loewen: The Minis ter mentioned that in all her communi cations with the media, she indi cated that it was identified to them that this was an ongoing process and that they were in the process of taking an in ventory. I will give her a quote from the paper, which comes from a source within government, presumably a source within her department, as that would be the only department that would know. The quote is: "We are still in midstream, so there may be even more items missing." Does that coincide with the Mini ster's last comment? Ms. McGifford: I thank the Member for the question.

I am advised by staff that to the best of their knowledge that particular comment was never made by staff. It certainly was not made by me. So I cannot really say who the source of this comment was, nor can I be responsible for the Free Press and what the Free Press chooses to write. Mr.

Loewen: I agree with the Minis ter that we cannot necessarily be responsible for what the Free Press writes, but certainly when there are quotes that insinu ate that art has been stolen, and the quotes are attributed to a government source, certainly I would think, at least I would if I was a Min ister want to do some in vestigation in to where those quotes came from.

The particular memo, which I would appreciate if the Min ister would table with this committee, also according to the report in the Free Press, identifies a former mini ster of the Crown who was, according to the Free Press report, caught taking a painting to his new office and in fact when he was asked to return it did so will ingly and freely. Probably just a normal mistake that anyone could make when moving offices would be to take a picture, not something too unusual, and the fact is that as soon as the indivi dual was asked, it was returned.

Would the Min ister be able to table that memo with this committee? * (15 :30 )

2642 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I4 , 2000 Ms. McGifford: I am very pleased that the former minis ter who was noted in the Free Press, whoever that individual might be, returned the work. I agree with the Member that mistakes are easily made. In fact yesterday it turned out that another former minis ter had made a mistake and was certainly very anxious to identify the fact that he had a piece of the missing art in his office. That was very rewarding.

As I have indi cated, I have already told the Member for Fort Whyte that staff will review the communi cations we have, apply the FIP PA principles, and determine what we can release after that. I do want to indic ate to the Member once more that quotations in the Free Press, stories in the Free Press, I am not responsible for the Free Press. I do not write in the Free Press. Mr.

Loewen: I appreciate that the Minis ter does not write for the Free Press but, again, if it was my Department and a story like this appeared in the Free Press, I certainly would not question the credibility of a news paper reporter who provides direct quotes from either a source or from a written memo that they claim to have a, copy of. I am sure the Min ister has enough regard for the reporters that cover these proceedings and cover the House, particula rly Doug Nairne, who wrote this article.

I am sure she has enough confidence in his abilities to know that he and, in fact, his editors would not quote a memo word for word unless they had a memo, would not quote a source word for word unless they had something to back it up.

So on the basis of the fact that this memo was quoted and, in fact, a source was quoted, I guess I would ask the Minis ter by virtue of the fact that the story was picked up nationally, certainly throwing question on some members of this Legisla tive Assembly, which at the end of the day proves through their own investigation to be totally malicio us, how seriously did she take this matter? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, indeed I did not cast aspersions on the integrity of Doug Nairne. I simply said I am not responsible for what appears in the Free Press. I think those are two different statements.

I noticed the Member said that if he were running the Department, he would do it in a different way. Well, if the people of Manitoba wanted him to run the Department, they would have elected him to run it, but I am. Mr. Loewen: The Min ister sounds more li ke the Min ister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) every day. She must be taking some pretty good lessons from him in terms of answering. [interjection] They do sit next to each other in the House, so maybe that explains it. We will concede to the Min ister that she is, in fact, a Member of the governing party, and I would li ke to congratulate her for that.

I hope at the same time she understands that with that privilege comes the responsibil ities of over seeing her department in a professional manner. I think it is clearly her duty to respond to issues that are raised either through the findings of her department or through the press in a professional manner. So, I would ask the Min ister what steps she took-this

article is dated Tuesday, January II -what steps she took after she saw this

article to correct the situation and correct the impression left not only in Manitoba but also across this country that, in fact, some artwork had been stolen from the premises. Ms. McGifford: Well, I thank the Member for Fort Whyte for his advice in what I should do and what I should not do and where I should be and where I should not be and what I should tell my department and what I should not. He is a source of excellent advice, a Magus, a wise man down at the end of the table there.

I would li ke to point out to the Member for Fort Whyte that there have been several new spaper stories since the one that he seems to be fixated on. I hope he did not stop reading the Free Press on January II but has continued, because he will have found that we have updated the Free Press on various developments and have kept them abreast when they expressed curiosity of what has been found. In fact, I do know that very recently there was a story talking about the list having dwindled down to the four pieces.

Maybe we could inf orm the Free Press that we have found one, and there are only three missing pieces now. Mr. Loewen: I think, with all due respect to the members of this House and to the people that

June 14 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2643 work in this building, she should advise the Free Press and The Globe and Mail and The Post who picked up on those stories, and, in fact, she should do it in a signif icant way. Perhaps one way she could do that is by apologizing to the people that work in this buildi ng, both the ele cted members, as well as, any st aff who work in this building, who certainly would have felt tainted by this leak of inf ormation.

Maybe by way of issuing an apology and a press release explaining that the Minis ter would be wi lling to apologize for any misconceptions that arose out of the workings of her department and that, in fact, virtually all the artwork had been found, maybe that would be something that would be well advised and appreciated by the people of Manitoba. I guess I would ask the Minis ter: Would she be willing to do that? Ms. McGifford: Mr.

Chair, you know, I would like to point out, if all members of the Legisla ture had followed with fidel ity the directives of the memo from the executive Cle rk of the Council, they would have never moved art as they moved their offices. I understand that Don Leitch sent out a memo, before the election and after the election, saying that the art goes with the office and not with the occupant. So, the whole process of managing the art inventory might have been made easier if members of the Legisla ture had simply follo wed the directives of the Clerk of the Executive Cou ncil. Some members did, some did not.

Will I apologize? Heavens, no. Mr. Loewen: Can the Minis ter tell me how many of the 10 4 pieces were recovered as a result of her staff finding out that somebody within this building had moved it from one office to another? * (15 :40) Ms. McGifford: I am advised that there had been an invent ory in August. The 10 4 pieces that we could not initially locate in the invent ory in October, November, of the 10 4 pieces that could not be located, 10 0 of them were found in the building in various places. Mr.

Loewen: So I am to take it from that answer that the Minis ter does not have a breakdown of how many of those 10 4 pieces were moved from one office to another? Ms. McGiff ord: I understand that, no, we do not have that figure. In some cases, pieces were moved within the complexities of an office, perhaps from an inner office to an outer office, perhaps from a wall to a closet. So we do not have those figures. We could perhaps provide that breakdown, but it would take the Department some time to come up with those figures. Mr.

Loewen: Then it would seem from that answer that it must be obvious to the Min ister that the articles in the press, particula rly the one in the January 11 Free Press, which I belie ve broke the story, was a gross exaggeration of what, in fact, the case was. Ms. McGifford: Well, now it sounds like it is the Member for Fort Whyte who is questioning the integrity of the Free Press. Mr. Loewen: I can assure the Mini ster I am not questioning the integrity of the Free Press. What I am questioning is the scope of the problem that was identified to the Free Press.

After all, they are only reporting on a memo which was leaked to them, a government memo from her depart ment, which she seems to think is totally inconsequential but which I would remind her cast a black eye on not only all the elected officials but all the other officials who work in this buildin g. So I would ask her to possibly be a li ttle less flippant with her responses and treat this matter with the seriousness that it deserves. I would just remind her that this was a national news story.

This was a story picked up not only in Manitoba but picked up all across this country which cast aspersions on the elected members of this government House as well as every hired employee, every bureaucrat who works in this building. I am simply asking the Min ister if after having an opportunity to finish the inventory, to finish their work, would she say that the

article in the Free Press, which is based not on false inf ormation but on inf ormation gleaned at the

2644 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANIT OBA June 14 , 2000 time, the only inf ormation that was available, that in the end this

article portrays the issue of lost art as something different than it actually turned out, in fact, to be. Ms. McGifford: You know, I am truly shocked that this member is casting aspersions on my staff by saying my staff leaked a memo. I have told him repeatedly that my staff did not leak a memo. The Member might further consider we have no evidence as to what the Free Press had or did not have. I have no responsibili ty for what the Free Press had or did not have.

I do not know if the Member has some special access to the Free Press and knows what they had or did not have, but I am truly shocked and disappointed that he is casting aspersions on very quali fied, very competent, very loyal, faithful, hard-working staff people who have to sit there and lis ten to him do this. I have been very much to the point and assured this member that we will review our communic ations, we will apply the FIP PA rules, and whatever can be released we will then consider releasing, but I would ask him to leave my staff alone. Mr.

Loewen: Well, just to clarifY the situation for the Mini ster's cl earer understanding, I have at no point in my commentary suggested that her staff leaked the memo. In fact, I am on her side in this. I know from first-hand dealings with her staff that I have had as a vol unteer in this community, connected with the arts community, that she has a very dil igent, a very competent staff, one that takes their job seriously and carries it through to the best of their abilities. One only has to look so far as the tremendous arts community that we have in this province to understand that her staff does a very good job.

So I want to make it perfectly cl ear on the record that I have tremendous respect for the staff of her department. I also want to make it clea r that I have some concerns, I think some very serious concerns, that a black eye has been put on this Legisla ture, on this building and on everybody who works in this building as a result of a memo that was leaked. I want to make it cl ear I am not saying her staff leaked it, but I think there is no doubt that somebody leaked it, quite lik ely for political purposes, and certainly her staff would have absolutely no reason to do that.

What I am simply asking the Min ister is as a result of a leaked memo, quite likely politically driven, as there is no other reason to leak a memo lik e that unless it is politically driven, an

article appeared in the Free Press. I am simply asking the Minis ter if she would confirm to this committee that in fact the facts of the matter, what proved out to be the actual situation at the end of the day once all the facts were known, in no way resembled the report that was written in the Free Press as a result of the facts they knew at the time which came from this memo and from an unidentified source. Ms. McGifford: Mr.

Chair, I am not quite sure what the question was there, but I do want to reiterate that whatever the Free Press chose to write, whatever na tional- international, maybe intergala ctic, reputation we might have now, it was not as the result of a leaked memo from my department. In fact, in all departmental com munica tions, my staff has stressed that we describe the art as misloc ated. We never even described the art as missin g. I accept the Member's apology to the staff, or I think it was an apology.

I take it as an apology, earl ier, but the Member did and perhaps ina dvertently say that it was a memo le aked from my department. Mr. Loewen: Just to clarifY that. The report from the Free Press says that it was a memo that was leaked from government, which to me would indica te that it was certainly politically motivated. I guess just to try and simplify the question for the Minister: Did, in fact, her invent ory prove that at the end of the day, virtually all of the art that is the responsibili ty of her department was accounted for in this buildi ng? Ms. McGifford: Mr.

Chair, as a point of clarification the art in the buildi ng, it is perhaps a minor matter, but the art is the responsibili ty of the Department of Government Services, and, yes, as we repeatedly indi cated, virtually all of the art with the exception of as of yesterday four pieces and as of today three pieces have been

June 14 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2645 lo cated, as we in this department always expected to be the case. Mr. Loewen: Back in February, the then-L eader of the Opposition Gary Filmon wrote to the Min ister and he copied other members of caucus expressing his concerns about the fact that in fact there seemed to be a large amount of artwork missing and certainly identifying to the Minis ter that our caucus was prepared to co operate fully with any of her departmental staff to make sure that the pieces of art had all been found. There was a response from the Min ister.

I am sorry, just to correct, that the Leader of the Opposition Gary Fil mon at the time wrote on January 11 . There was a response on February 18 identifying that most of the artwork had been found, and certainly the Min ister expresses her appreciation for the support of the Leader and of his caucus. I was wondering if there was any follo w-up written communi cation to the Leader of the Opposition once it had been establish ed that in fact all but three or four pieces of art had been found. *( 1 5:50) Ms. McGifford: I did receive a second letter from the former Leader of the Opposition.

We have drafted a le tter and the former Leader of the Opposition will receive it in the very near future. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Chairman, I belie ve the Minis ter had stated that her staff had gone around to every office in this building to lo cate the missing artwork. Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the Member could repeat the question. I did not get it. Mr. Loewen: Certainly, Mr. Chair. I believe what she said, I am just trying to clarify this, that people from her department had indeed gone to every office in the building to lo cate the missing artwork. Ms.

McGifford: I am advised that we have gone to every office unless there are spaces that we do not know, and if we do not know about them, we would appreciate any advice that members opposite could provide, because, of course, we would li ke to attend those offices, too. Mr. Loewen: Having done that, I guess, fortunately we were able to identify one piece of art yesterday as a result from a member being here that it has been in his office, I guess, for quite some time and perhaps was missed. I just wonder what her plans are in terms of continuing the search for the last three pieces of art. Ms.

McGifford: With respect to the particular piece that the former Minis ter of Urban Affairs identified as being in his current office, the last time in November when the inv entory people attended room 12 3, that piece of art was not on the wall. It was not on display. So perhaps it had not yet been hung. Perhaps it was in a box. Perhaps it was in a cupboard. Perhaps it was awaiting the legis lative people to come and hang. [interjection] Excuse me, it is a ceramic piece that sits. Of course, there are ceramic pieces that do hang on walls, so that is another possibility.

That seems to be a strange notion to the Member for Fort Whyte, but I can assure him that I have ceramic pieces on my walls. Mr. Loewen: And I am sure they are lovely pieces. I was asking the Min ister, though, what plans she had to try and locate the other three pieces that are still missin g. Ms. McGiff ord: Mr. Chair, as I indi cated yesterday, we will continue to work and we will continue to search for those pieces. As I ind icated yesterday, there is a chance that the ceramic pieces could have been broken.

I know that yesterday I cited an example of a piece that had been purchased and was in my of fice, a glass piece, that was accidentally knocked over and broken. We were very fortunate in being able to obtain a replacement for that particula r piece. But the nature of ceramic and glass pieces is that they do break, so perhaps that has happened. Perhaps the three pieces will not be located which would indeed be unfortunate, but we are certainly trying our best to locate them. As part of our efforts, we are trying to be more proactive.

For example, I believe that Government Services has asked that there be an identified person responsible for art in al l offices. I believe that we are preparing materials

2646 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14 , 2000 on caring for the art in offices, and that will soon be available. Mr. Loewen: I think those are all excellent plans. The Minis ter has already stated on the record that she did not discuss this

article with a reporter from the Free Press and that her staff did not. I wonder, given the seriousness of the article, the seriousness of the alle gations, if after this

article appeared in the paper, did she take any steps to try and determine who had leaked a memo or who had been the confidential source that spoke to the paper? Ms. McGifford: No, I did not. Mr. Loewen: Did the Min ister either verbally or through written communi cations communi cate with the First Minis ter regarding this issue? Ms. McGifford: I did not communi cate with the First Min ister in regard to the

article in the Free Press, no. Mr. Loewen: I would assume from that sort of nebulous answer that the Min ister then did, in fact-it would seem only natural that she communi cated with the First Min ister on the issue. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I cannot remember speaking specifically about the

article in the Free Press, as I have indic ated, with the First Min ister. The Member for Fort Whyte has indica ted that the story was in the Free Press and it was in other public ations. When it was a part of the news, people talked about it. Yes, I might have talked about it with the First Minis ter. We were, both of us, very anxious to find the pieces that were mislo cated and the Premier (Mr. Doer) was as in terested as I was and as my department was in finding the mislo cated pieces and, of course, expressed interest in their being relo cated in the sense of found. Mr.

Loewen: Well, I would ask the Min ister then if she could include in the request for memos within her department and, in particular, the memo that is quoted word for word in this January 11 article, if she could also include any written communi cation that she had with the Premier on this issue either before this

article appeared or after or in conjunction with this memo. Ms. McGifford: I think I have answered this question innumerable times and assured the Member that we will review written materials that are present in my department, and we will apply the PIP PA test and will get back to the Member as soon as that work has been done. * (1 6:00) Mr. Loewen: I would ask the Minis ter if she can recollect any conversations with the Premier where there was a plan or a strategy to correct this misrepresentation in the

article in the Winnipeg Free Press so that it would be cl ear, not only to Manitobans, but to people across the country that there were not over a hundred pieces of art missing, that in fact they had just been, basically, moved within the Legisla tive Building and remained unaccounted for. Ms. McGifford: You know, Mr. Chair, this is what we did immediately-went to the press and assured the press that we believed that the materials were mislocated and would be found. Our determination has alwa ys been to find the mislo cated pieces. Mr.

Loewen: Just to clarify, I was asking the Minis ter if she had discussions with the Premier around how best to accomplish that goal of assuring Manitobans and, in fact, people across the country that the art was in the building. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I felt that the best strategy was to work with my staff to search out the mislocated pieces. No, I did not ask the Premier to run around with a pencil and paper barging into various offices, and seeing what work of art was on the wall. No, the Premier is a very busy man.

I have departmental people who were doing the inv entory, departmental people who were anxious to locate these pieces. That is exactly the strategy that we employed and that we will continue to employ. Mr. Loewen: Again, I appreciate the fact that the Min ister feels she has to lecture me on how an operation as big as the Government of Manitoba operates. I can tell her I certainly

June 14 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2647 appreciate that the Premier would not be the one running around from office to office, and I can appreciate that she would not be the one running around from office to office, although she might have the time. I guess that is up to her. In any event, again that was not my question.

My question to the Min ister was: Does she recall conversations that she had with the Premier regarding a strategy to get to the media with the right facts, with the accurate story that in fact there had not been a loss to the Province of Manit oba from stolen art work, that the majority of it could be accounted for very, very quickly right within this buildin g? Did she have any conversations regarding that type of strategy with the First Minis ter? Ms. McGifford: Wel l, I have made the point several times that, no, I did not evolve a strategy with the Premier. I evolved the strategy with my department.

Let me add at this point one of the things that the Department did was dedicate a particula r staffperson and staff resources to the inventory. We brought in somebody for an eight week period who participated in this inve ntory-a former employee of the Department who is now in retirement. So, no, I did not evolve a strategy with the Premier. I felt and continue to feel that we did the wisest thing and trusted in staff who are experts in art to provide the best guidance, to provide the best ways of relocating the pieces of art. Cle arly, I was right because we found 101 out of 10 4 missing pieces of art. Mr.

Loewen: Well, I will agree with the Min ister at the end of the day she was right. What was wrong was the approach that was taken to it. I find it unb eli evable that the Minis ter of the Crown, given the seriousness of an issue that gave a black eye to certainly every elected official, and also to those working in this building, that there was not a communications strategy planned with the First Min ister and with his communi cations department to remove that black eye immediately, particularly as the Minis ter would be well aware that this story was picked up on a national basis.

So, if the Minis ter is saying that she did not discuss this issue with the First Minis ter, I would ask what Com munications staff she did discuss it with. Ms. McGifford: Well, Mr. Chair, and I am so sorry that the Member opposite feels blackened. Personally, I do not. I do not know if my coll eagues do. For example, I was recently at a meeting of minis ters of Tourism, and they did not all poke their finger at me and say: art thief.

I am sorry that the Member opposite feels that his reputation has been bla ckened, but I do want to reiterate the two points that I have been making over and over again, and that is the day after the Free Press article, we told the press, that is my department told the press and I told the press myself and the director of the Arts Branch told the press that we expected that all the pieces of art would be located.

As well, let me make the point again, that in our determination to locate these misl ocated pieces, we hired a staff person on a temporary basis to assist us in this work, and as I said, we were very successful because we were able to find 1 01 out of 10 4 pieces of art. Mr. Loewen: Well, again, it is simply amazing to me, if what the Minis ter is telling us is that after articles lik e this appear in the Free Press that are picked up nationally, I just cannot believe that she does not recognize that certainly Manitoba was given a black eye by the negative reporting of this story in the national press.

Given the number of communica tors that have been hired by this government since they took office, I find it even more incredible that the Min ister is sitting here telling us that she did not try immediately to develop a strategy with that Communi cations department to correct the erroneous reports that were not only giving the wrong impression to people of Manitoba but giving the wrong impression to people al l across the country. So, just to clarify, is the Minis ter saying that after this

article appeared in the Free Press there was no attempt to develop a communi cations strategy for damage control, that she in fact did not feel that this type of

article was damaging to Man itoba and to everybody who works in this building? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, how many ways and how many times can I say we did, we did, we did, we did, we did, as I have repeatedly told this member.

2648 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14 , 2000 An Honourable Member: They just do not have any other questions. Ms. McGifford: I guess there are not any other questions. The day after the article, I and the dir ector of the Arts Branch both told the Free Press- Mr. Ch airperson: On a point of order, the Member for River East. Point of Order Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Chai rperson, on a point of order, I just want to indica te that the Deputy Premier always seems to be able to hop in across the table and put comments on the record when the Government is under pressure and under a little bit of heat and when one of her colleagues seems to be having some diffic ulty answering the questions, and I would ask you to call her to order. I think we are li stening very intently to the answers by the Min ister, and I would like you to call her to order so that we can in fact hear what the Min ister has to say and ask our questions appropriately. Hon.

Jeu Friesen (Minister of Intergovern mental Affairs): Mr. Chairman, I think what I would like to say is that the Member, of course, does not have a point of order and had the former min ister in fact been here for any length of time she would recognize that it was the first intervention that I have made, either that or perhaps the Min ister really was not counting accurately. But my comments, Mr.

Chairman, I think, were quite appropriate, that the Member has been on this question for many, many, perhaps hours now, and it does seem to me that there are other questions of impor tance to the people of Manitoba, but they are not ones that seem to be able to come through the ranks of this particular opposition. It seems to me if this is the only question that they have when the Minis ter, and I want to make the point, has answered this question over and over agai n, that she has answered it briefly, she has answered it extensively. She has answered it in a short way, she has answered it over and over again.

She has answered it to one Member who then leaves, she has answered it to another Member who then reappears, and it does seem to me is what we have is a lack of ima gina tion and a lack of an understanding of the whole area of Culture, Herit age and Tourism that is being reflected in this opposition. I do feel, Mr. Chairman, that I do have to put that on the record because I think that the Minis ter is doing a very good job to answer what is essentially a very repetitive question and perhaps it is that the members opposite do not hear. Perhaps it is that they do not want to hear.

Perhaps they are unable to hear, but I think we should say for the record that everybody else sitting around this table believes that the Minis ter has answered this very competently, that she has been extremely patient, extremely patient and polite with members who are essentially, I think, not appreciating the full purpose of Estimates, and I want to commend the Minis ter for the kind of answers that she has been giving.

I think they are very responsive to the repetitive questions that the opposition has been asking and I do wonder if the opposition does, in fact, have any other version or vision of culture, heri tage and tourism in this province other than that which is reflected in this question. I do think that perhaps having been in government for I 0 years that they might have some other options to talk about in Culture, Herit age and Tourism. I would think that there would be many, many options.

In fact, we certai nly have not seen these in Question Period, so I had antici pated with great enthusiasm and that is why I am sitting here lis tening to the Opposition's critique of Culture, Heritage and Tourism policy. [interjection] Well, yes, my colleague here says that he brought a pen and he was looking for some interesting guidance on this, but I do not think that we are seeing it from this particular line of questioning. I do want to support the Minis ter in her answers. I think that she has done a standard and sterling job in this area. Mr.

Chairperson: On the point of order raised, there is no point of order. I just caution all members to not interrupt when the speaker speaks. Keep your comments down so that we

June 14 , 2000 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2649 can proceed with our questioning. We cannot go on until we have quiet, because we cannot hear the speaker speak. I am sorry. * * * Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I apologize to the Chairman and to the Minister, but as a result of the interjections that were happening when the Minister was answering the last question, I have to apologize. I was not able to hear all the answer, and I wonder if I could ask her to repeat it. Ms. McGifford: Well. I think the answer was we did, we did, we did, we did, we did. An Honourable Member: Did what?

Some Honourable Members: Oh. oh. Mr. Loewen: WelL thank you. Mr. Chairman. You know, just- * (16:10 ) Mr. Chair person: Order, please. We have to be quiet and let the speaker speak. You will get your chance to address the Chair later, and I will recogn ize you if you wish to speak. Thank you. Mr. Loewen : Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and just in response I can assure the Minister that members on this side of the House certainly take seriously their responsibility in Estimates. We ce1iainly have a vision and many of us have been involved in the arts community in Winnipeg and in Manitoba for a number of years.

I do not think any of us have to justify to the Minister or to anybody on the opposite side of the table with regard to the questions we are asking. There are certainly lots of questions to ask. There are certainly a lot of creative questions to ask, and I can assure the Minister and assure anybody else at the table that we will get to them and we will get to them in due course. Mr. Chairman, I think this is an extremely serious matter and I think one which I am astounded that people at this table would take lightly.

We have had our reputation sullied all across Canada. [interjection] We have had it sullied as a direct result of an

article in the Free Press. We have had it as a result of a government memo- Mr. Chair person: Order, please. Do not interrupt the speaker. I have difficulty hearing and if you wish to speak, raise your hand and I will recognize you. Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr. Chair, you know that reputation has been sullied by a government memo which was obtained by the Free Press, a written memo that they quote directly from that was backed up by an unidentified source within government which we can only assume with some type of political source, and certainly the impression was left across all of Canada.

In fact, with the Internet these days, as we found out in the House today, it does not take much to go from one site to all across the world to some very undesirable sites. So, no doubt there are people outside of Canada that have seen this article. As a result, everybody who works in this building, and I include myself as one of them, at the end of the day all we have is a reputation and our reputation has been damaged by this article.

I simply find it astounding that a minister of this government, a minister of the Crown, upon seeing that there was a black mark being put against not only elected members but also a black mark against anybody who worked in this building that she did not immediately-and, in fact, with the Premier and with the Premier's communication staff-develop a communicat

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-45
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 45.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6e58643277007edb9d3ef9c252747eadf2f10ebd

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