Manitoba Hansard — 59 and 1807 (Sitting 4, 26th Legislature, 1st Session)

26-1-4

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A�. W. lfarri son Volume ID No. 4 June 12, 1959 lst Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. s. Evans, Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba� Winnipeg

I. N D E X Friday, June l2th. 1959,..2:30 P.M. Introduction of Bills •••••••••••• .- ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• Nos. 47, 45, 48_, 54, 34, 21, 22, 36, 29 and 28 · (Messrs. Scarth, Cowan, Christianson, · Hon •. Messrs. Thompson, Roblin, Johnson.) Proposed Resolution!!, Committee of the Whole House ••••••••••••••••••••• Noa. 10, 19, 17. (H;ons. Messrs� Evans, Boulic, Willis) statement, Flood Hon. Mr. Willis ••••••••••••••••••••.••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• Question (Mr. Paulley) Extraordinary -Resolution, flooding ••••••••••••••.••••••••••••••••••••• �· Mr. Prefontaine, Hon. Mr. Roblin, Mr.

Prefo1ltaine, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Paulley. Ruling by Mr. Speaker ....................... ..... , ••• _ •••••••••• •- •••• , . Mr • Prefontaine ••••••••••••••••••••••.•• ._ ••••••. • . . . .... . .. ..... . .. . . _ Mr. Roberts and Mr. Tanchak • . - ••• _ •••••••• _ •• .- ••.••••• , .... . ... . .... . . Mr. Paulley, Mr. Groves Mr. Willis · Dr.

Johnson ········�·············�······-��- ······ ·· ··········�·� · • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • o-• � • • • 9: • • • • • -.. .� • •-• • • • • • • •.• • • • • • •· • • .. . . .. . � ... . . .. . . .. • .. · -· . . . . ·-··· . . . ... . . .. . . . .. . . .... ... . . - . - . ••• '1 .... � •••••••••••. • .... .. ... "" •• ·-.. .. � . . . .. ·-�· •••• � . ... .. _ •• � •:- statement, . Teachers College Page 31 31 32 33 35 35 36 37 38 38 39 Hon. Mr.

McLean •••••••••••••••••.•••••. • •••• ., ••• _ ... •• • • • • • •.• • • • •.•.• 39 Q11estions ••••••••••••••••••••. • ••••••••••••••••.••••••••. • ••••••••• � •• o Mr. Paull ey, Mr. Guttormson, }4r. Schreyer, Mr. Wagner. 8peech from the Throne, debate 39 -�-·: Paulley ••••••••• '" ••••••••••••••••••• · •.••••. • · •.•••• • ••••••••••• u . 42

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'.clock, Friday, June 12th, 1959. OPENING PRAYER BY MR. SPEAKER. MR. SPEAKE R: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions .MR. CLERK: The petition -0fDario Perfumo and others, praying for the passing of

an Act to Incorporate Council 1107. MR. SPEAKER: .. Notice of Motion Intr oduction of Bills Mr. W.B. Scarth., Q . . C., (River Heights) introduced Bill No. 47,

an Act to amend

an Act to lncor,porate the'8inking Fund Trustees of the School District of Winnipeg No. i. Mr. J. Cowan ·(Winnipeg Centre) intro duced Bill No. 45,

an Act to amend The Winnipeg Charter, 1956, and to.validate By-laws Nos. 17959 and 18072. Mr. -C-0wan introduced Bill N-0. '48, an Agt to amend The Winnipeg Charter, 1956. Mr. J. A. Chrtstianson {Portage la Prairie) introduced Bill No. 54, . .

an Act to amen::l th<i Portage la Prairie ·Charter. Mr. Scarth introduced Bill No/34, -

an Act to am: end The Public Schools Act (2). Hon. JobJi.Thompson (Minister -0f Municipal Affairs) (Virden) introduced Bill No. 21;

an Act to amend The Muni.Cipal £oundaries.•Act. Mr. ·niompsonintroducedBlikNo. 22, anAetto amend The LocalGoveriiment Districts Act. Bbn. l>uff Roblin·(Pr:emier) (Wolseleynntroduced Bill No. 36, an Actto amend The Re"' serveforWa.r.and Pdst.:.War Emer.gencies Act. �on. Geo . .. JohnS'on, 11/I.D, (Mlliister.•o'r�Beiilth and Public Welfare)(Gimli) introduced Rill. No. 2S, •rui 'Act·to-·amen:il :'f'he Disabled;'Pe:rsons 1 Allowances Act. · Dr, Jl>bn:sun m�duced Bfil ·No-. :28, ··ail.

Atit to amend The Blind Persons' Allowances ,Act. . . - . � B:cm. · -Gmt�Y:]!}\rANs: ('Mi#istez:_: i!if �bi.es-lind :Natural ·Resources). ·(;Fort Rouge): Mr. Chai:rl'nan; 'His Hmtt:>lil''the ·l:iieuten:arlt.,;{lovel'1io£having been informed of the subject matter of the propoSed-r"1so�titi-OM., recomnreriiis thelri:to the House. MR/�1 · ShalFthe'Ccftnni.it'tee·'.jiise to receive the resolutions?

Resolution No. 1, -Resolved·tlrat-iHS ·Eflt�dtenttb brmg,tn:.a'me'a'Slite to validate Order-in'-°Council 1443/58 guaran teeing p:rlnciplil, no't 'e}teeedmg fiit:y-tlloti-Stitid0doll'ai's in:aggregate, and interest thereon at a rate not eXceedmg-�ftve,pe'i';ifun:tiin'l.'llEiraftlitl:fn secureii<by an issue of debenture bonds issued by Co- _0op Prairi�1Jilniren Ltd, · · MR. EVANS: �-- �Chairmair1 th�chcmourable members will .remember that this .also was in:troduced'at·the l:ast\�esston but.am-Ong oil1ers·withered on: the vine.

As win be recalled, the Co'-'operative '-Prairlf!f\Oamfers of'Wiiikler;hadmade arrangements for financing through The 'lnd\tStrial:bevelopmerit Bank·ofthe ''.Federal Government to the extent, I believe, of $65, OOO. 00 condition£! upon 'thei1>::getting a guara:tite·e for tliefr own debentures of $50, OOO. 00 guaranteed both as to principal :iii.a 'interest. Tliat giiar'antee was furnished by the Government under the Order-in�C.ouncil quoted and this is the'legi'sllition developed from that arrangement. MR. D. L. CAlVlPii.ELL ('Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside): Mr.

Chairman, I think that so far as the Honour able the Minister's remarks are concerned about this having been be fore the House in the last session ·, ·1 believe tha(is true of all three of these resolutions, is it not? I think perhaps 'that we could agree to them all. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution be adopted? ASSEMBLED MEMBERS: "Aye". MR . CRAlRMAN: Resolution No. 2.

Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide for the making of agreements with insurers for the establishment of a plan of group life insurance for public servants of the province, anc!__for the payment from the Consolidated June· 12th, 1959. Page 31

(Mr. Chairman cont'd.) ...• Fund of such amounts as may be required, together with contri butions from the persons insured, to implement the plan aforesaid. HON. MARCEL BOULIC (Provincial Secretary) (Cypress): Mr. Chairman, this also was introduced at the last session. Group life insurance benefits for the employees of the Pro vince of Manitoba have been discussed for many years and this type of insurance has now be come universally accepted by the employers and employees in industry. We think, therefore, that it is only fair that the same advantages be made available to employees of the government. MR.

RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the C� C. F. Party) (Radisson): Mr. Chairman, we welcome this resolution insofar as it applies to our civil servants. The one question I would direct to the Minister �- is it the intention of the Minister to call for tenders for the insurance scheme in order that we are assured and also the civil servants are assured that the question of the premiums will be as low as possible. MR. BOULIC: Yes, tenders will be called. MR . CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution be adopted? ASSEMBLED MEMBERS: "Aye". MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 3.

Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to authorize the Reimbursement of Certain Municipalities for Amounts paid for Bounties on Predatory Animals. HON. ERRICK F. WILLIS, Q. C., (Minister of Agrieulture and Immigration) (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Chairman; this is a matter that was before the House in the previous session. Four municipalities forgot to make application for reimbursement for the bounties on predatory antinals. The total amount is less than $400. 00. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution be adopted? ASSEMBLED MEMBERS: "Aye". MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the Committee rise and report?

Call in the Speaker. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole House has adopted certain resolutions and directed me to report the same. DR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, Ibeg to move, seconded by the honourable member for Winnipeg Centre, that the report of the Committee be received. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. Mr. Evans introduced Bill No. 10. Mr. Boulic introduced Bill No. 19. Mr. Willis introduced Bill No. 17. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. WILLIS: Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are reached, I should like to read a statement in regard to a small flash flood which has occurred in the Ste. Anne district, which you. may have noticed was reported in the press. On June lOth we experienced a heavy rainfall of at least two inches in the Ste. Anne-Steinbach area. As a result, high water has ac cumulated in the Seine River at Ste. Anne and is now moving downstream towards Winnipeg. This water will ultimately empty into the Red River which is comparatively low. However, property owners adjacent to the Seine River between Ste. ·Anne and st.

Boniface, including st. Vital, are warned to watch for flood water which may affect their properties during the next two or three days. We have engineers in the flooded areas, ·and while the peak of this present flow of water may be reduced as it moves downstream, we thought it advisable to warn the public who could be affected. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, in connection with the Minister's statement on the flood ing of the Seine, may I direct a question to him in connection with the Seine River diversion? What progress has been made on that diversion up-to-date and when might it be completed? MR. WILLIS: Mr.

Speaker, I could not tell the honourable member the exact date of completion but I would say to him that it has been continuous and we are hoping that it will be completed on time. MR. PAULLEY: The Minister, Mr. Speaker, what does he mean by "on time"? MR. WILLIS: Mr. Speaker, I would not -- without the contract here I would not be sure, but I think it's in the fall that it is completed. MR. N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I deem it a great pleasure and privilege to introduce to you and this Assembly a group in the gallery Page 32 June 12th, 1959.

(Mr. Shoemaker cont'd.) •... immediately to your left, immediately above my head here. Miss Brown has arranged today to bring her class of Grade XI students, that is 35 out of 36 of them, here, to not only look over this beautiful building but to watch us in our proceedings for a few brief minutes this afternoon. They have asked me to thank the Honourable the First Minister for so kindly arranging to meet them at the door.

Last year, most of you know, I believe, that the Town of Neepawa was awarded the most beautiful town in the Province of Manitoba, and I think that you will agree with me that this class of students here this afternoon and their teacher is not too hard to cast ey,es on either. MR. E. PREFONTAINE (Carillon): Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether I would be in . order, but I propose to move the adjournment of the House in order to discuss a matter of ur gent public importance, namely, the serious flooding in south-east Manitoba and the excessive moisture situation in the Red River Valley. MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, it is a proper motion. MR. PREFONTAJNE: I would like to move, seconded by the honourable member for Emerson, that the House do now adjourn in order to discuss the serious flooding in south-east Manitoba and the excessive moisture situation in the Red River Valley. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, before the question is put I would like to raise the point of order that we are accustomed to discussing in this House, in the last few months, on a point of this sort.

The suggestion made by the honourable member is that the House should be adjourned, that is that all our other business should be dropped in order to discuss this matter. Now there is no question at all that the matter is important, but as we have fouild, I think, from examina tion of the rules and examination of procedure, that is not the point at issue. The point at issue is whether it is essential to adjourn the House at this moment in order to discuss the matter now. In other words, is the occasion of the debate urgent?

I submit, Sir, that it is not, be cause the next order of business on the agenda after we dispose of the motion of the honourable member for Inkster is the Throne Speech, and after the honourable the Leader of the C. C. F. Party has spoken, if my honourable friend wants to discuss this particular matter he is quite at liberty to do so. Therefore, it is apparent that there is no urgency of adjourning the House in the question of getting this.debate on the floor or bringing it to the attention of the govern ment.

I also point out that the Minister himself has made a statement on the matter, as a mat ter of fact one of the members of the Cabinet is visiting the area now, but I do think that it would be wise for us to settle this matter of procedure in what I trust is the proper way, and that is that we must discuss the question of urgency of debate. If there was no opportunity to debate this matter in time available to the House, then I think we would be very glad to accept the motion and have the ·debate proceed. But that certainly is not the case today.

There will be opportunity this very afternoon to discuss this matter if members wish to do so. I there-. fore suggest to you, Sir, on that point of order, we should not accept the motion that has just been made. MR. PREFONTAINE: On this point of order, Mr .. Chairman, I would say that every hour that passes is important as far as many people in this area are concerned. I was not aware that there was a Cabinet Minister investigating the situation at the present time.

Some people are moving out right now and it is urgent that some bridges be looked after immediately because some hamlets will be isolated in that part of the country. I do not know what is being done. The Minister mentioned one phase of the flood, but he didn't mention other phases that are very, very serious also, and that's why I thought it was very urgent that these matters should be discussed now rather than later in the debate, later in the session this afternoon. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Speaker, I notice that you have been looking at one of the rule books and I presume it is Beauchesne, but before you render a decision on this matter might I once again say a word on this point of order, I have of course, as every member of this House bas, a great respect for Beauchesne, and the rules that he gives as being applicable to the House of Commons of Ottawa are certainly a guide for us in our deliberations here. But I suggest to you, Mr.

Speaker, that they are a guide only to the extent that we do not have a rule, or a practice, or a custom of our own governing the situation. · And while :Beauchesne and Bourinot and May, and other authorities are undoubtedly important and very useful to us in our consideration of these matters, and I am sure that you have been making a study of them, June 12th, 1959. Page 33

(Mr. Campbell cont'd.) .. .• Mr. Speaker, yet the rule book that governs our deliberations here, in my humble opinion, is our own rule book, because in our own jurisdiction we have just as great authority as the Parliament of Canada has in its jurisdiction.

And when this sovereign legislative body makes rules for its own conduct and guidance then those rules, un til they are changed, are of paramount importance and they obtain in this House and the very - I haven't my rule book in front of me -- but again I recall that the very first rule in our rule book says something along this line -- that .the House shall be governed by its own rules and practices and customs and that where they do not obtain, by those of the House of Commons at Ottawa. Now I suggest to you, Mr.

Speaker, that we ha'\Te undoubtedly a custom and a practice with regard to the movement of this motion of the adjournment of the House to discuss a mat ter of urgent public importance; and while it is true that at Ottawa they consider the question of urgency that my honourable friend the First Minister has mentioned, it is just as true that in this House that has not been the practice, and we have never had that rule.

We've never had that custom and our custom has been, and I have been one when I was sitting over on that side, and I am still of the opinion -- I am still of the opinion that it would be correct to have the question considered .on the basis of urgency; but that has not been the custom here. And I sug gest to you, Mr. Speaker, before you make a rule -- a ruling on this matter, that you consider very carefully what our own book says and recall the practice and the custom of this House be cause those are the one.§ that govern.

Now, so far as the Honourable the First Minister's suggestion that my honourable col league could make this motion or discuss this matter later on, I think it is traditional that he would not likely intervene in the debate this afternoon because it is altogether likely, I would think, that the Honourable the First Minister himself intends to speak after the honourable the Leader of the C. C. F. Party. That, of course, is his privilege, but I would think that would not be the likely time for my honourable friend to take

part in that debate under �dinary cir- ,.,,., · cum.Stances. And then I would think if I have any "'"-and I have no advance knowledge as to the course that my honourable friend's remarks will take, but if he follows his usual practice I would expect him to move an amendment to the amendment. I would expect it to deal largely with matters that my honourable friend, my honourable colleague would be out of order if he discussed this matter in connection with that amendment to the amendment, so that I doubt very greatly that that procedure would be helpful to my honourable colleague. However, Mr.

Speaker, once again I simply want to suggest to you, because I know that this is not an easy decision for you to make, suggest to you that you consider being first of all in importance our own rule in this question. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, if I may make a brief comment or two in connection with the proposed adjournment, and more or less possibly anticipati:Dg after the ·First Minister's remarks what the result may be, may I. first of all, Sir, recall to you that during the last Legis lature this matter was debated on at least two occasions and the motions for the adjournment in each case was substantiated and the debate took place. It does seem rather odd to me, as I reflect in past history on flooding, to see that my honourable friends to my right are raising the important question of flood.

I recall back in 1950 and 151 they were not so anxious at that particular time to either take action or to allow a full debate on the question. However, that is past history and I am glad to see that they are advancing at least in some directions with the passing of time. But insofar as the rules of the House are concerned, Mr. Speaker, may I direct your attention to our own little rule book once again. On Page 11 the procedure is that the Minister shall -- the members shall hand a written statement of the matter proposed to be discussed to Mr. Speaker.

If he thinks it'·s in. order, he reads it out and asks whether the member has the leave of the House. If no objection -- if ob jection is taken, Mr. Speaker requests those members who ·support the motion to rise in their places and if three members rise accordingly, Mr. Speaker calls upon the member who has asked for leave. Going on a little further in the same rule, Mr.

Speaker, on the question of the restriction of the motion, Sub-clause C says that the motion must not anticipate a matter which has been previously appointed for consideration by the House or with reference to which a notice of motion has been given -- previously given and not withdrawn. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that .the question raised by my honourable friend, the member from Carillon, is of prime importance to the people in the constituencies c�cerned. Part of Page 34 June 12th, 1959.

(Mr. Paulley cont'd.) .... the area through which the Seine River flows is my own constituency of Radisson and I know full well that the people there are viewing this matter with grave con cern, and not only in Radisson proper but also in the City of st. Boniface this matter can be of vital importance. And I would suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that in all fairness to these people it is proper for this House to discuss this matter at this time. MR.

SPEAKER: In making a ruling on this particular matter we have, as the Leader of the Opposition has stated, already precedences at the last session where motions of this kind were debated in the House and we have the r�ferences in Beauchesne in which depends upon the Speaker to ascertain whether the motion is of urgent importance or not. We :.._ at the last ses sion of the Legislature, I, as Speaker of this House, endeavoured to bring us in keeping with the Dominion Act whereby the Speaker does rule on the urgencies of these motions.

On the other hand we have already set a precedent in Manitoba which is covered by the Rule No. 1. I would think that we have no other recourse but to abide by the precedent that we have set in the House. I don't see how we can do otherwise. The Ho'.lse, of course, can change that ruling if they choose to do so. So I have no other recourse, as I see it, than to allow the debate on the motion. MR . ROBLIN: We'll gladly accept your ruling in this matter, Mr. Speaker. MR. CAMPBELL: If I may say so I'd like to express my appreciation and I'm sure the appreciation of a good many of the members of this House.

I'd like to say to the government that if they really feel that the -- that this rule or procedure should be changed, then I for one would be very glad to see them set up a Committee of the House on which this House would .. MR . PREFONTAINE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank you for the ruling that you have just given and thank the members of the House for allowing me to proceed -- for just a few moments, I wish to assure you.

Now I had not definitely made up my mind to move this resolution until the Minister of Agriculture and the Acting Minister of Public Works made the statement, in which he stated that the Seine River was flooding; that there was a flash flood in ste. Anne; and that there was danger of further flooding north-west of ste. Anne; because that might give the impression that the Seine River was the only one that was giving trouble at the present time.

This is not at all the fact, because there is the Teulon Creek down there, which the Minister knows very well about, which is giving much more serious trouble I should say than the Seine River, and there is also the Joubert Creek which is flooding the Town of St. Pierre right now. So this is the reason why I thought it was appropriate that I should bring this mat ter before the House at this time so that the House would be informed of the seriousness of the whole situation all over south-east Manitoba.

I could not say anything on the statement made by the Minister at this time so I jotted down the reasons for the resolution that I was bringing for ward. After the session last night I might say that I left on the Trans-Canada Highway and went to ste. Anne to see how the Seine River was behaving. At that time the water had not reached its crest in ste. Amle. The situation was pretty near normal. There was no water close to No. 12 Highway at ste. Anne.

I drove to steinbach and I got in touch with the mayor of the town and he took me around the Town of steinbach and I saw that there was a lot of damage to the streets; cave-ins; damage to bridges; about fifteen homes had had to be evacuated the previous evening at 3:00 o'clock in the morning because of a flash flood; and I might say that it will cost the Town of steinbach to repair their streets and bridges quite a lot of money, and I hope that the Government will come to the assistance of the Town of steinbach. I drove down south on No. 12 Highway to a point east of Sarto to the Tealon Creek.

There I saw a bridge that the Department of Public Works had worked a whole day to try and save to keep the traffic going, and it was still in service at that time but the water was rushing past that bridge and it was caving in some further and I suppose that they had to work through the night to try and save that bridge and keep the traffic going. Turning west I went to the Town of Sarto and there I found that the whole town was under water. The water was going over the Sarto road at four places up to a point of about a foot deep. It was hard to get by.

One bridge was menacing to go under the. water completely and planks had been put over it so that traffic could travel. I phoned Sarto this morning and I was told the situation was worse. The bridge was still open, but they feared that after an hour or so it would not be open, and I found that all June 12th, 1959. Page 35

(Mr. Prefontaine cont'd.) . . . . the farmers living along the Teulon Creek from that point on No. 12 Highway going in a north-westerly direction to the north-east corner of the Municipality of De Salaberry, for about a mile wide, where the landfl were flooded and many, many homes were flooded also. Around Sarto there -- some farmers had not a single inch of pasture left for their cattle. They were moving their cattle to higher land in order to have them on pasture. Travelling further west I came to st. Pierre where the Joubert Creek was flooding serious ly.

During the night three or four families had to be moved from their homes in the Village of st. Pierre. The situation is pretty serious with the Joubert Creek rising rapidly every minute right now and more families are being evacuated right now. This is very serious for these people down there. I know that my colleague, the member for LaVerandrye, is down there in vestigating also at the present time. But there is something that possibly in the long run might be more serious, is the excessive moisture situation all through the Red River Valley. Not 10% of the crops have been put in yet this spring.

Some farmers have had summerfallow now for two years and they can't plant their crops this year. These people are definitely in des perate straits. They don't know what the future holds for them. · Now I think that the government should at least tell the municipalities aff ected that they Will receive some assistance with respect to their bridges and their roads. That would en courage them to hurry to the assistance of the people so that hamlets like that of Sarto would not be completely isolated and it would relieve the situation to a certain extent.

It is to my mind the greatest emergency that I have seen in that part of the country since I've been the mem ber for that constituency for twenty-four years. I've never seen so much water and we have had many floods in the past, so I did decide to move this motion because I would like the members to realize that it is not only the Seine River that is flooding and causing damages, but all the creeks and rivers down there are on the rampage also. MR. J.P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I move this resolution . I wish to thank you for your decision on this, allowing us to speak. I'll take only a few mmutes.

I think that we in Emerson constituency are not as hard-hit as the people around steinbach, Sarto and the places mentioned. There is some concern, however, about the Roseau River which empties into the Red River. I was out there immediately after the session yesterday. I went and maie a tour. I saw the Council; saw the Reeve of Franklin Municipality; and they're quite concerned. They do not know. The Roseau River is rising very rapidly but whether it will flood or not they cann ot say just now.

We are lucky in one respect, that no damage so far to bridges, buildings in Franklin Municipality and Emerson constituency, no damage has occurred. There is water flowing over the Morden-Sprague Highway, it has been flooded in several places but local en gineers have looked into that. They have been notified. But the Council is concerned about the farmers who have been drowned -- whose fields have been drowned out. There was about -- in the Red River around Arnaud and Dominion City, about 50% of the seeding done, and now that is a complete loss.

The fields are completely covered with water around Arnaud, Carlowrie and Dominion City, and they are concerned. The chief concern is, as was mentioned by the honourable member from Carillon that some of these farmers had to summerfallow their farms last year, and not only last year, I think it is·the third successive year where they've had a crop failure. They are concerned that this year it will be impossible for the farmers even to buy fuel to summerfallow these fields and they'll have to do it because they think it's going to be a 100% loss.

Therefore, the Council had asked me to bring this up •- to see the Minister - I didn't know that this resolution was going to come tip until I came back here today, so they asked me to see the Minister of Agriculture -- I see he is back now -- and bring this to his at tention. They hope there will be some assistance from the government in Emerson constituency. I thank you. MR. S. ROBERTS (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, I have just returned from the area, particularly the Ste.

Anne area, which is being so badly flooded at this moment and I do want to stress how serious this situation is, because not only are the farm lands flooding, but the town itself is deep in water. Many of the homes are iil bad shape. The hospital has been now evacuated to ·the hotel, and now they are going to have to evacuate the hotel, and there are 50 to 60 families who have already left the town and more are leaving. I don't think that this flood should be under-estimated by anyone, because it is a serious flood and I think it's worth referring to, and worth taking some time for today.

Now I've -- I'd just like to make a brief Page 36 June 12th, 1959.

(Mr. Roberts continued) .... reference to, first of all, some of the agricultural areas at the present time that are being seriously flooded, and by seriously I mean not only are the crops that did manage to get sown are being flooded out, but many buildings are gradually finding themselves either surrounded by water or becoming isolated, or becoming actually inundated.

Livestock - there has been quite a bit of poultry lost in some areas around Ile Des Chenes, Bothwell and particularly in the area of the Manning Canal runn ing from south of New Bothwell Gorlitz area through Ile Des Chenes, there is a flood of water flowing through the canal and at least twice or three times as much water flowing over the land beside the canal, and 'is making quite a very serious mess. Bridges are some of them, under water, and some are being dam aged. other roads of course are completely out -0f commission.

They can •t be cdriven on and that's the main reason why I'm so late today because it took twice or three times as long to make this tour as I thought it would. In other areas like Giroux, La Broquerie, and Marchand, the damage is to crops and to isolation of farms. To my knowledge there are no buildings yet under water, but if the Seine River and the Brokenhead River continue to rise, then these areas will be flooded too. In the Ste. Anne town, as I say, the serious situation is quite serious. From the junction of the Ste.

Anne Road or the main street itself and No. 12 Highway, the water is fully three feet deep and the filling station which you all know at the corner, the water is up over half the level of the gasoline pumps now. And although it did go down for a short time this morning, it is rising again now, and so there is really not too much certainty as to how serious or how long this flood is going to continue, but it is a great disaster to the people living in the area and I thfuk it is one that should be <ionsidered as an emergency, because there is great damage done to buildings.

F-0r instance the school, which has classrooms in the basement, is completely full of water - the basement rooms. They're still managing to pump out the basement of the hospi tal but practically all of the homes in town are completely flooded. It was done so quickly that there was great loss because people with deep-freezes in their basements, or furnaces, their water systems and everything are being damaged because these things - they were not able to protect them, and I think that this is a great personal loss.

It's going to be a great loss to the Municipalities, and the farmers in th'Else areas are going to suffer great crop losses as well as livestock losses perhaps in some cases, and in the meantime these people are suffering quite a hardshii> ®d I think that it is well worth our time to discuss this a bit. .I think that we should consider the situation in south-eastern Man'itoba an emergency, and I think that the government should take a dennite s�d -on this because I think that ·the�e people now wantto know if they . are gbing to get any help thrOUgh th is disaster -from the provincial government. Thank you! MR. E.

R. SCHB.EYER (Brokenhead): The gist of this debate has to do with the flooding · in the Ste. Anne - Steinbach area, antl as such I did not "intend ta participate in this particular debate. I would however be remiss· ii t did n.ot·dra'w the attention of this Assembly to a scale down, geographically scaled down, but similar Situation in the area immediately east of the town of lleausejour. · 1'h'ere too a flash fiood-ocCU!'l"ed and there has been extensive crop dam age eVen though the land was just freshly seeded. However; there has been damage of that type and a road <ma PTH was washed out.

I'm not tOo sure of the extent of the damage - i wouldn't care to speculate on it - however, I am quite sure that the situation definitely warrants the immediate attention of,the responsible minister, as indeed does the situatio n spoken of by the honourable member for La Verendi'ye and for Carillon. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker� I would just like to add a word or two to those that I have said in connection with the permission of this debate.

I don't know to what degree the damage may have been less!=lned had quicker action been taken by both the previous government and the present government in the construction of the Seine River diversion. If memory serves me right, it was only after a considerable amount of prodding in the House that the previous govern ment agreed to provide certain funds for the commencement of the Seine River diversion.

And if likewise memory serves me correctly, on my friends opposite taking office as a result of last year's election, all work was stopped for some considerable period on the Seine River diversion. · Now I must confess, Mr. Speaker, that as of yet I haven't gone out to the southern part of st. Vital to see what effect, if any, has taken place there. But as has been indicated by honourable friends of the Liberal Party, the waters have not as yet really started to flow down June 12th, 1959 Page 37

(Mr. Paulley, continued) .... towards this area, but I'm sure that if the conditions exist, or that are existing magnify, and as the next day or two may show, the damage will occur in the ldwer reaches of the Seine River. We have experienced from time to time considerable trouble and damage in the Municipality of St. Vital as a result of the actions of the Seine River, which as ·we all know is a rather shallow river and the banks are low, and the over-flooding of those banks is quite easily achieved. Also, and I'm sure my honourable friend the member for St.

Boniface would agree with me in saying that as a result of corrosion of flash floods of the Seine River that many of the banks in places in the City of St. Boniface itself have been washed out to the degree that it is creating a hardship on some of the people in the area. So, Mr. Speaker, I would urge that the government view this in all seriousness. We appreciate very much the statements of the Minister of Agriculture this afternoon, but I do suggest, Mr. Speaker, that much more has to be done than just that.

In addition to·taking whatever steps may be advisable to alleviate and stop the flood at the present time, a greater speed must be made in taking steps to prevent similar things happening. True, as the Minister says, that he couldn't give me a firm date as to when the Seine diversion will be completed. I would like to snggest to him that if it is at all possible that the work on that diversion be speeded up, even today, which may help the situation. MR. F. GROVES (st.

Vital): Since the radio reports this morning indicated that there was a possibility of some of this flood water from south-eastern Manitoba affecting st. Vital, immediately upon my hearing these reports on the radio, I went out along with municipal officials from St. Vital and made a tour of the Seine River as it flows through our constituency, and also through the portions of st. Vital that lie within the constituencies of Radisson and Springfield.

On the basis of my observations, and which were confirmed by the officials of the municipalities tp.ere is no immediate danger, I am told from the Seine River in that area. We also checked with officials of St. Boniface and they seem to confirm our feelings that there was no immediate danger from the Seine River. I'm satisfied though on the basis of my observations this morning and the conversations that I had with officials of the municipality that certainly both St. Boniface and st.

Vital are watching the situation carefully, and that the Provincial Department of Public Works is also doing a good job in watching the situation. I'm satisfied that. if there is any dan ger in St. Vital or the other constituencies which I mentioned from.the Seine River, that cer tainly somebody will be on the job immediately that that danger becomes apparent. MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr. Speaker, with your permission may I have leave of the House to - oh! pardon me. MR. WILLIS: Mr. Speaker, may I say that in regard to this situation we are treating it as being entirely serious.

We have our engineers in the area, and on the job.

They are making reports to us here with regard to the progress ot the flooded areas, and I have on my desk now a statement which brings us up to 1:30 this afternoon from the area, from our bistrict Engineer who is there now trying to do everything that is possible to help the people and. also to do every thing that is possible to prevent any increase in flooding. · hi addition to that, the Minister of · Public Utilities is out there because I was not in the city, and he is out with the engineers as well, on the job, seeing that everything possible is done to alleviate the situation, and as far as we are concerned we will spare no pains or expenditures of money in order to do the best that can be done under the circumstances through our engineers.

I should like to read a statement which will bring us a little more up to date with regard ·to the situation in the area, which was just sent in to me from Mr. Griffith who is our chief conservation and water control engineer, which came to me since I came into the House: "The high flows in the Seine River result from the recent heavy rainfalls over the watershed. The rainfall was caused by a weather disturbance which moved into Canada from the northern states and crossed over the south-eastern portion of the province.

Rainfalls of 1. 7 inches and 2 inches were reported at Emerson and Kenora respectively, with 3 inches reported at the Marchand ranger stations, and 5 inches at Piney. The ground moisture content over the water was ap proximately 150% above normal and this condition produced a rapid run-off to the Seine River. The Seine River rose rapidly at Marchand and Thursday morning flooded over its banks cutting the railroad and highway connections into the town. The crest moved down the river during Thursday and resulted in the flooding of the town of ste. Anne.

The river rose 3. 5 feet - that is 3 feet, 5 inches, from Thursday morning to this morning at Prairie Grove, and has risen Page 38 June 12th, 1959

(Mr. Willis, continued) .•.. another four-tenths since 7:30 this morning. The flooding around Ste. Anne extends southerly for approximately two miles south along No. 12 highway, and ex tends easterly from a thousand feet to one-half mile. No. 12 north-of Ste. Anne is flooded to the Trans-Canada highway, and there is an area of approximately five square miles lying south of the C. N. R. between Ste. Anne and Dufresne which is flooded, and the water is returning to the river south of Dufresne. 11 At the village of Dufresne, from the report received at 1:30, the river is now contained within its banks.

The water level at Ste. Anne has remained steady during the past four hours, which would indicate that the peak is at or near Ste. Anne at the present time. I desire merely to assure the House that I would be glad to have any suggestions from any members with regard to the matter.

We do now have competent engineers with experience within the area with in structions to take care of any emergency in any possible way, and while this matter i_s serious and we're not casting it aside as being anything else, we do suggest to the House that we have competent engineers on the job, with proper authority to do anything which will help this situation. MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, one ... question. Is the Health Department watching the situation? DR. JOHNSON: Mr. Speaker, yes I wish to-just inform the House that we have been in touch with the Ste. Anne Hospital.

As the member from La Verendrye mentioned it has been evacuated, one patient went to St. Boniface Hospital, three went home, and as the member from La Vere�drye said the three that were moved to the hotel under the doctor's care will probably have to be evacuated from there. However, the Commissioner has been in touch and he will be going down to the Ste. Anne Hospital which is the one most affected and we have given them as surance that we will give them all the assistance that is possible to relieve their needs. MR . GRAY: One more question.

In the case of high temperature -- heat -- would it en danger the district from any epidemic? DR. JOHNSON: Yes, well our health unit officials are -- the Deputy Minister is in touch with the officials in the department of Sanitation -- Sanitary Inspectors. We're sending -- and we will be able to make a full report later. MR. SCHREYER: .... •.. ask a question of the Honourable, the Minister of Public Works.

Has he been informed of the, as I said, similar situation existing immediately east of Beause jour, and if so, does his attitude - the attitude of the government towards this -- is it the same as it is towards the situation in the area of Ste. Anne, Steinbach? MR. WILLIS: In our view, all people in the province are equal and deserve and must have equal treatment. As far as the Beausejour area is concerned, our reports from that area are not equal to or as bad as the ones in the other area which were spoken of today. If they become more serious. they will be attended to in the same careful manner. MR.

PREFONTAINE: Mr. Speaker, may I ask leave to withdraw my motion to adjourn the House? MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Carillon have leave of the House to withdraw his motion? ASSEMBLED MEMBERS: "Aye". MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. STEWART E. MCLEAN (Minister of Educatio n)(Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to just make a comment about a portion of a news report that appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press Thursday, June llth in the final edition. The heading of the story is 'No more permit teaching'.

And in the very final paragraph this is what is stated. 11C.K. Rogers, Registrar, said the aim now would be to admit now only those with complete Grade XII. .This would depend, however, on the applications for admission received by the col lege. " In order that there may be no misunderstanding in the mind of the public, I would like to refer to the rules as set out in the calendar of The Manitoba Teachers' College which make it quite clear that we are prepared to receive and accept applications froro students who have complete Grade XI and two or more Grade XII papers.

In other words that a student with Grade XI and two papers in Grade XII may be admitted to The Teachers' College. I just wanted to make a statement to the House that no change has been made in that policy and in case there was any misunderstanding arising from the report which appeared in the press. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to direct a June 12th, 1959 Page 39

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) .... question to the Provincial Treasurer or whoever is responsible for elections. Our morning papers report that only about 59 voters out of a registra,tion of a thousand voted in yesterday's deferred election. Can the minister explain this? MR. ROBLJN: My friend addressed me but looked at somebody else. I perhaps might try and answer the question because I tried to get to Thompson myself in the course of this campaign and was unable to do so because of transportation diff iculties.

I must say that the same thought occurred to me when I read the news of the very low vote in that poll that my hon ourable friend has expressed. I caiivassed what information I can and I am unable to come up with any reasonable explanation for the low poll except for the fact that people just didn't vote. However I intend to enquire of fhe chief electoral officer in due course if he can think of any reason why the vote should have been as it was, but I'm afraid I can't offer any really construct ive opinion as to what happened there. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, if I may, just a supplemental question, in view of the state ment of the First Minister, the answer may be forthcoming later. Is it true that the polling station was located about 2 miles away from the central area of the town where the voters re side? MR. ROBLlN: I think, of course, that my honourable friend appreciates that I don't know the answer to that question. If I had been to Thompson I might have observed it, but I couldn't get in there. MR. PAULLEY: Possibly, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the first remarks of the First Mini ster, when he has completed his enquiries into it to satisfy his own curiosity, he might be able to answer the second question as well. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I'm afraid I can't help my two honourable friends out in this connection that they are discussing now. All that I would like to say about the two elec tions in the north is that my complaint is not about the number that voted but how they voted. MR. E. GUTTORMSON (st. George): I would like to direct a question to the First Mini ster.

In the last session of the legislature I issued an order for return of some papers regard ing the correspondence between the federal and provincial governments regarding the flood pro gramme. At that time before the House dissolved the First Minister gave me assurance that I would receive those papers. Could he tell me at this time when I might get those papers ? MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I expect within a day or two.

I believe practically all those returns are now completed -- I wouldn't be positive of the exact one my honourable friend speaks of - but to the best of my knowledge there is no holdup in any of the replies. They are all in order - some have been sent, I think, in today's mail, and just as soon as the clerical staff can turn them out they will be sent to the leaders of the two parties.

I think we're in a little bit of a constitutional box here because if I understand matters of right, the questions constitu tionally die with the House, but as has been stated we undertook to see the answers were given anyway so if those who asked the questions will be patient for a day or two, I am sure the an swers will be forthcoming. If there's any lengthy delay, if those concerned will just telephone my office we'll do our best to expedite them. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I should like to direct a question to the Honourable, the Minister of Mines and Resources.

Does the provincial govern ment maintain a government travel bureau office in (

a) any centre in any other province (

b) any centre in the U.S. (

c) if so, where and (

d) what was the cost of maintaining such offices? MF_ EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member was good enough to give me notice of this question and I thank him. The answer to the (

a) part of the question is 'No'. There are no offices in other provinces. The answer to the (

b) part is also 'No'. There are no centres ill United states and consequently the other two parts of the question don't apply. MR. PETER WAGNER (Fisher): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. I have a paper clipping here states 16, OOO farms are un economical, and under my observation is the uneconomic operations that the Minister ..... scattered throughout the province but concentrated in the south-east, interlake and west lake regions -- and he presented a nine page brief.

Would it be available to the members of the House and would it be possible that the Minister would like to get rid of me in the interlake country? MR. WILLIS: Yes. Page 40 June 12th, 1959

MR. WAGNER: Mr. Speaker, I think the Honourable Minister didn't answer my question fully. MR. WILLIS: Just the last part. MR. WAGNER: Just the last part. I meant whether the 9 page brief that the Honourable Minister presented will be available to the members. MR. WILLIS: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: Proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Inkster that this House request the Government to petition the Federal Government for an increase for Old Age and Blind Pensioners in the Province of Manitoba. The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GRAY: Mr.

Speaker, with the kind consent of the House I would like to have this matter stand. (Stand). MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell for an address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in answer to his Speech at the Opening of the Session and the amendment thereto. The Honourable the Leader of the C. C. F. • ...•... ••. Continued on following page. June 12th, 1959 Page 41

1'IB.. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, may I first of all indulge in a very happy custom of this House in extending to you, Sir, my congratulations on occupying the seat you do. As you well know, Sir; I was�in the happy position last year with my group supporting you in your venture to the big Chair. We also indicated at the opening of this legislature our support once again from you.

So I say, Sir, in all sincerity we wish you well in your high position and it will be our desire subject only to other considerations when there may be conflict on a matter of principle between us, to lend every assistance to you in your arduous task, and we wish you well. I would like to express a word of commendation to the mover and the seconder of the Speech in Reply to His Honour .

I think that they acquitted themselves nobly and will be as the days go on, more and more of an asset not only to the constituencies from which they have been chosen to represent but in the debates and the proceedings in this legislature and to the province as a whole. I too, Sir, would like to extend a hearty welcome to all of the members of the various constituencies who are seated in this Chamber for the first time .

I am sure, Sir, that they feel somewhat the same as I did the first time I had that opportunity; filled with humility and at the same time pride and gratitude that the electors sent them here to do a job. The only suggestion I would make to them, and I'm sure that some of the members who were here last year, and were anxious at various times to take

part in the debate found out, I suggest to them they be wary of the Premier's proverbial paternal paw, which on numerous occasions last year waved them down. I too, Sir, would like to extend my sincere congratulations to the First Minister and to his party on achieving a majority government in Manitoba . It is quite natural, Sir, that we would have liked to have traded seats with him --but the electorate said otherwise . And while I'm not going to be quite as docile or patronizing as the gentleman who preceded me in this debate, I am sincere in wishing to you Mr.

Minister, First Minister and to all of the boys of your ranks, my sincere congratulations and best wishes for the future of the Province ' of Manitoba. I would be remiss in my duties as the Leader of the Third Party in this House without saying a word or two to my friend of many years the Leader of the official Opp osition and to his group. I suggest to them that now that the air has been cleared in Manitoba for the next four or five years, that they have a grave responsibility to the people of Manitoba.

And I am sure that under the leadership of the honourable member for Lakeside that that respons ibility will be well taken care of. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a word or two in connection with the recent election. We are not crying at all as to the results of that election. We regret very much the loss of two --the two most able spokesmen that the party has had in this legislature in recent years, in the persons of our provincial leader -whom we hope will soon be back in this House, -and our former colleague Don Swailes.

I think it will be recognized by all that they in the performance of their duties as representatives made valuable contributions; not only to the debates in this legislature but also by their propositions and persistence made many changes in legislation that were and will be of benefit to all Manitobans . And I would like to say, Sir, that though I have the honour of occupying, in this House, the position as Leader of the C. C. F. party, there will be no change in our policies --for our policies are based on the fundamental principles of justice after fnll consideration in annual conventions of the party itself.

We are not and never have been --and may I suggest, never will be - a party who is ruled by an individual or a group from above; but our policies are, at all times, formulated at grass root levels. We found some satisfaction in the election despite the loss of "Stinson" and "Swailes" because we received an increased vote of approx imately 10, OOO. We were more than pleased, Mr. Speaker, to find that about 4, OOO of this i'acreased vote came in rural Manitoba.. It had been said during the. course of the election by some friends in this House that we were purely and simply a city party.

I think the vote indicates thitt there is a growing awareness in rural Manitoba of the job that can be achieved by supporting the C. C. F. Approximately 25% of the voters in the most recent election support ed our party. And I say, Sir, that in view of the fact that there is a likelihood before our next general election, federally and provincially, that there may be a new party born in Canada Page 42 June 12th, 1959

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ..•. which would be comprised of the united forces of labour·, farmer, professional and small businessmen, that insofar as we are concerned in Manitoba, the results of the Manit oba election augers well . I would say to the Honourable the Attorney-General, there was no decimation of the-- C .C .F., Sir, but rather a general increase in our support. For indeed, Sir, a party which is founded on the principles such as ours will never be decimated here in Manitoba or any where where freedom exists . True, we may face losses, but the principles on which we are founded will never be obliterated.

And I say this too, Sir, that had it not been for the efforts of our party in stopping the juggernaut of the Tory Party, their majority in this House may have been double what it is to-day. I say, Sir •...•. pardon? ••.. their majority? .• yes, it could have been. I say, Sir, that despite the loss numerically of one seat, it was because of the appeal that we made to the electorate which prevented the overflow on this side of the House being any greater than it is . And I might say i ncidental to this, referring to the two deferred elections of yesterday, again I must congratulate the First Minister and his Party.

We had hoped that as the result of the very very fine and capable candidate which ran under our auspices in Rupertsland that we would have had in this legislature a representative of the oldest peoples in our Dominion. I'm sure, Sir, that had the people of Rupertsland chosen him, they would have been well rep resented. However, such was not the case and we certainly bear no grudge to the honourable member who has been elected and we wish him well in absentia.

One thing that is very significant, throughout the whole of the past election, indeed over the past few months, is the fact that here in the Province of Manitoba and to some degree in the rest of Canada has been the gradual decay of what was once formerly one of the greatest political parties in Canada. It is obvious I am referring to those who have a Liberal stripe. For it is a fact, Mr. Speaker, that a little over a year ago, this party on my right had 35 seats in this legislature -- and now are reduced to ll. They in Manitoba, Sir, are obviously a dying party.

And I would suggest to many of their former supporters that they should advance with the times. And I suggest to all of their liberally minded supporters -- and that, Sir, is liberal with a small "l" -- that they join with us in making sure that the future will belong to the common folk. Now, Sir, while my friends opposite may twitter, and I have no objection to it all, -- as a matter of fact, welcome it. And it is true that insofar as we of the C. C. F. are concerned that outside of the Province of Saskatchewan, nowhere. else in the Dominion of Canada have we formed a government.

But, I would like just to read a passage in a book called, "C anada, Tomorrow's Giant" written by Bruce Hutchison whom I'm sure that most members of this House recognize , when he says, "speaking of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation, I think" (and he was speaking of another gentleman at this time), he says, "I think the man was right in saying that if the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation of the Regina Manifesto had been elected only in Saskatchewan and failed in election in every other province, it had been in fact an extraordinary success .

Its ideals appropriated by the great political parties had infiltrated colour and altered the whole society of Canada." I'm sllre you'll agree with me that Bruce Hutchison was no C. C. Fer . But the point that I make, Sir, that irrespective of the fact that only in Saskatchewan have we formed a C. C. F. Government, that our ideologies and our principles have of necessity been accepted by my friends opposite to quite a considerable degree ; to a lesser degree by my friends to the right.

And I suggest, .Sir, that if they had been on their toes and accepted many of those principles, they may still be reigning on the other side of the House. Now, Sir, I said that I was not crying about the election. But we did observe, during the course of the election, that there is room for improvements in our election machinery. And while I am not going to labour the point at the present time, in due course,· we. hope during this Session of the Legislature to lay certain propositions and proposals before this Assembly, aimed at making a better election machine in the Pr<;>vince of Manitoba .

Now the, Sir, I would like to make a remark or two in connection with the amendment proposed by our honourable friends of the Liberal Party. Now it isn't very often, Sir, that we of the C.C.F . agree with our honourable friends. In this matter, however, we do. We think that more pressure, more of the aggressiveness which the Government of Manitoba has June 12th, 1959 Page 43

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ••••• shown in other fields, should be directed to Ottawa in order that we here in the Province of Manitoba should be able to get greater contributions and support for many of the things that we feel are desirable for the people of Manitoba . One point, however, which my honourable friends will not agree with me is that in addition to this, and I think we alone say that there is another source of revenue which has not yet been properly tapped.

And that is revenue from our natural resources • So while I say that we are going to support the amendment of my friends to the right, there is another source of revenue, and during the course of the session we will have something to say on that. But I think Sir, that when the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition proposed his amendment that he was right. I think it is very regrettable that the government of the Province of Manitoba has not been more force ful dealing with Ottawa in this regard.

I recall Sir, a few years ago in this House, the First Minister and the present Minister of Induatry and C_ommerce tackling the present Leader of the Opposition on this score . While there was a Liberal regime at Ottawa, my honourable friends were very, very vigorous in calling for action and it appears to me that that vigor has dissipated to some degree at the present time.

The Conservatives federally had promised or indicated on various occasions that this whole matter of Dominion-Provincial relations would receive their early consideration and time goes on till now in the year 1959 on July 6th we understand that there is going to be a gathering of Provincial Treasurers to consider the situation. But I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that that is not sufficient, that it should be a full conference of the Premiers of the Provinces to analyze once again the whole set up of Dominion-Provincial relations in Canada.

And I regret very much that as I read the daily newspapers I find that the Prime Minister of Canada has said to the municipal authorities that we are not going to have you accepted as guests in any conference dealing with Provincial-Federal matters . I know that the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, I think, pioneered in the field of having municipal representatives during negotiations at Ottawa. I suggest that the First Minister now should attempt to not only have our municipal representatives as guests at that conference but to have them there as full partners in it.

I suggest that it's a tragedy for the municipalities when they hear the Honour able John Diefenbaker reject their proposals for greater financial contributions to municipal ities, to reject their requests for low cost funds for capital work in municipalities, and yet Mr.

Speaker, I think it a truism and a fact, that one of the difficulties of the municipalities today, namely the high price of interest rates, I think it is a fact that the onus of those high interest rates lay clearly at the door of the Conservative administration at Ottawa -- started out by what I think was a fiasco in the bond reconversion issue of a couple of years ago.

So I say, Sir, that the First Minister as such and in his position as Treasurer has a duty to perform to vigorously protest, if need be, to the Federal authorities of their treatment of the municipalities and to go to that conference insisting on full participation within the limit ations of their jurisdiction of our municipalities . In my notes, Sir, unfortunately, a reference was omitted to a brief scrutiny of the Speech from the Throne, and while I have thus far spoken of the amendment I would like to. make one or two brief comments on the Throne Speech itself.

One of the most obvious points of the Throne Speech itself appears to me to have been that wherea8 in the Throne Speech of the last Session on numerous occasions reference was made to attempting to have requeSts made on Ottawa for participation in various aspects of development, that in this Throne Speech there ha.S been an obvious omission of pressure on Ottawa for anything.

One of the things that has been omitted, and there may be a reason for it, - and I am sure that the First Minister will give us that reason when he enters this debate, -- one of the obvious omissions from the Throne Speech referred to flood control. Today we adjourned the House to consider a matter of flood control. Last year one of the selling points and one of the selling points in the recent election of my friend opposite, was . the que stion of flood control.

And while I appreciate His Honour saying at the beginning of the Throne Speech that many things that had been proposed before· will be considered again - to use the words 11at this time therefore I shall touch only on some of the main measures which will be laid before you". Surely Mr. Speaker, the question of flood control is a main measure, and while the Throne Speech did contain many of the other matters, some of them minor, I think that it was a grave error on the part of the author of the Throne Speech to omit reference Page 44 June 12th, 1959

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ..•.• to flood control. There is not one word this year and I'm surprised that the Honourable Acting Minister of Public Works -- I'm sure he couldn't have scrutinized this very very closely, -- because there is not one item, word mentioned in the Throne Speech relative to Federal aid for roads, highways and tourist roads. How often Mr.

Speaker, while you were down where we are now did the Honourable the Acting Minister of Public Works from his chair occupied by my colleague now, stand up and berate the Liberals because of the fact that they hadn't pressed for greater Federal contributions to our highways system here in Manitoba ? MR . WILLIS: Mr. Speaker, would the Honourable gentleman permit a question? Does he know that I've been to ott awa for that specific purpose within the past two weeks urging upon them the necessity for Federal aid for highways and roads ? MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I'm very glad to hear that, you know I'm very glad to hear that, but it doesn't change the picture one iota that in the maj or proclamation of the government there was no mention of it in their proposals, and while I've no objections to the interruption of my honourable friend, I say this, that if it was important enough for my honour able friend to go down to Ott awa to chit chat for a coupJe of weeks about it, it was important enough to announce to the people of Manitoba. One other matter dealing with farm credit.

We hear and see the same phrase today as we saw a month ago that the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation is now in operation and action is being taken on loan applications. I recall Mr. Speaker, in the spring session that my honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture told us "and they Will be given this spring". We're still dealing with them as loan applications . (Comment from members) Did they get them out? I'm glad to hear that they got them out. Now then further in the Throne Speech, numerous references are made to the develop ment of our natural resources . I think in this Mr.

Speaker, -- I wonder Mr. Speaker if the honourable ge;tlemen will jlB t get a little closer together so I can hear what they are saying, or else will they kindly get a little further apart so that I don't hear what they are saying. I'm not finished yet either. References and numerous references are made to the question of the development of our natural resources. I know that in this field of endeavour there are going to be great differences of opinion between both the government, the official opposition and ourselves . I think in this Mr.

Speaker, it is a well known fact that in the development of the natural resources of the Province or of the Dominion there is no differ.ence in the ideol ogies of either one of them, and we hope for the day when we will be able to say that the development of our natural resources in Manitoba and in Canada are for the people of Manitoba, the people of Canada, instead of buccaneers that we have found has happened in our oil industry.

Reference is made to the question of the establishment of our schools division, and we are glad that this happened and we trust that it will not be long before all of the proposed divisions enter irito the scheme . But I would like to point out to the Honourable the Minister of Education, that despite4he changes in education in administration, one of the propositions and selling points of the new Schools Division Act has not happened -- and that a reduction of the costs of schools at the local level.

Every evening we pick up our paper and we find that the tax burden at the local level is increasing to a greater degree than it was previously, and I would suggest to the Minister that insofar as the financial aspects of the Schools Act are concerned, that they reread it, and reread some of the statements that were made at the time of the selling of this to the people of the question of the burden on the local taxpayer and see what has happened .

I appreciate fully that under the propositions and proposals, that more money was going to be spent at the local level for teachers, for transportation, but I would suggest that knowing this that the onus is on the government to provide still greater aid to education in the Province of Manitoba, to give to the local school boards and the local tax payer a levelling off of school taxes at their level. Now Sir, there are other comments that I would like to make, should make, in connec tion with the Throne Speech itself.

Reference is made to the question that "a new plan will be proposed for premium collection for the Hospital Insurance Plan, designed to relieve municipalities of much of their responsibility in this regard. Certain other amendments to the Act to correct administrative difficulties will also be placed before you" , says the Speech. I suggest Mr. Speaker, that more than that should have been contained in the Throne Speech June 12th, 1959 Page 45

Mr. Paulley, (cont'd ) .••• because of the results of nearly a :'ear operation there are many deficiencies in our Hospitalization Act that need to be taken care of and we will be dealing with them lat er . As to the other items contained in the Throne Speech dealing with Social Welfar e, may I assure you Sir, and the government opposite, we will have a word or two to say too. My last reference to the Throne Speech Mr. Speaker, deals with the item appearing on the last page - "my government proposes to implement certain recommendations of the Natural Gas Enquirey Commission of Greater Winnipeg" .

We await with interest to see whether those recommenc}ations are in the interests of Manitoba, and in particular Greater Winnipeg, or will they be in the interests of the promoters of this huge enterprise . And now Sir, I would like to just briefly say a word or two on the question of unemploy ment. I'm sure it will be of some satisfaction to the Minister of Labour to know that here in the Greater Winnipeg area unemployment has been less this year than it was a year ago- but it is still far from good. We still have too many able bodied persons not employe d, but at the present I'm not going to labour the point.

But I would like to point out this to the Minister of Labour that there is being created in the ranks of labour many fears and appre hensions caused by the effects of automation on our industrial workers . More and more, particularly in industries such as the rail w:cy industry, we are finding the displace ment of men by machines, and while I say that labour itself has no objection to progress in automation I think that it is necessary for government and industry to view this matter very very serious ly and to analyz e the effects of automation.

Possibly to provide for a period of readjustment to those who are displaced as a result of automation. I notice in the Throne Speech there is some reference to the Apprecticeship Act and I suggest by that Mr. Speaker, that what the Minister has in mind is to lend encouragement to young boys to take up trades . We have found0in the,railway particularly that fully qualified tradesmen are being let out as a result of automation and certainly no one would suggest featherbedding, but we suggest that the matter should be given very serious consideration.

And I would also suggest to the Minister that in conjunction with the effects of automation that consideration should be given to devise some scheme in conjunction with Federal authorities so that the pensions that these men have created with their years of service may be portable so that they can carry them with them into new fields of endeavour. Now, Mr. Speaker, just briefly I want to talk a little bit about something that l' m sure that the Honourable the Minister of Health will be interested in.

I think that he will agree with me that one of the deficiencies in our whole health programme that has shown up as a result of our Hospital Plan being given wide coverage is the fact of the overcrowding of our hosp!ta1s .and the long waiting list. I think that this has shown the real needs of the people in the field of health have been long neglected - not only here in Manitoba but in Canada generally . My honourable colleague from Inkster raised a question or two in connection with the Manitoba Health Service, pointing out that full coverage to certain individuals was no longer availabl e.

Every day we see incidents of where, if we had a comprehensive health plan in Canada such as they have in Great Britain, many of the fears of our people would be overcome in the field of health . For a moment or two I want to talk about the health scheme in Great Britti.?.:n, but before doing that Mr. Speaker, I would like to just repeat a word or two that was uttered by the Honourable the Minister of Health when he spoke on the resolution which is similar to the one I propose to make in a wee while, last year or rather in the spring session.

It is found on Page 145 of the March l9th issue of Hansard of the last session. I'm quoting the words of the-Honourable the Minister of Healt h and Welfare - the sub-amendment and he's dealing with the amendment proposed by my leader, Lloyd stinson - "the sub-amendment is in my opinion so far removed from the motion to adopt the Speech from the Throne that I feel I must com - ment upon it.

While the amendment to the amendment calls for non-confidence in.tile govern ment for failing to bring in a completely socialized health insurance scheme--an importation from Great Britian or New Zealand--, it in no way offers any criticism or suggestions for the improvement in the numerous and important progressive proposals of the government in this field ." "Actually, Mr. Speaker,11he goes on to say "l find this subamendment so unreal, Page 46 June 12th, 1959

Mr. Paulley, (cont'

d) so divorced from the problems of Manitoba that I have wondered whether the mover was acquainted with the fact that this is Manitoba and we have fairly clea; indication in the last couple of years that our people do not want theoretical expensive, questionable experiments in pure socialism." The point that I make there Mr. Speaker, is simply this, I suggest to the Honourable the Minister of Health that the question of health is a responsibility of everybody and everyone in Macitoba, and while knowing the honourable gentleman like I do, I don't think he really meant what the newsprint pointed out but I would suggest to him that he reads it in order that he might set it straight if he takes

part in this debate. Now coming Sir, to the question of the hospital scheme in Great Britia.Il. About 97% of the population are covered by the plan. No real opposition to the system now exists.

The British Medical Society Association is full of praise for it and I would refer to two documents - one is a magazine, Harper's magazine of May 1959, the other is to the British Medical Journal of Saturday July 5th, 1958, because I think that the Honourable the Minister of Health and Welfare will take more cognizance of any quotations from the British Medical Journal, I will use that as a reference to the point that I want to establish, because I recall Sir, that his predecessor as representative of Gimli and also a medical practitioner, and I suggest, just as good as the present encumbent, had expressed fears and fears of the effect of a national scheme on the medical profession.

I want to quote a word or two--, and incidentally Sir, this Journal had a special supplement on the date that I mentioned after ten years, a supple ment on the tenth anniversary of the institution of the scheme in Great Britain. I quote an

article in the magazine by H. Guy ..•••• , the chairman of the council of the British Medical -Ass ociation from 1953 to 1949. "In the absence of any financial barrier between doctor and patient must make the doctor-patient relationship easier and more satisfactory." He says in his

article "from the point of view of the consumer, that is every inhabitant of the country, whether Britisher or visitor, it has been an enormous benefit and success .

In no other country, whether welfare state or not, is it possible to have on requirement, all the profess ional services that may be needed for the treatment of all kinds of illness or accident without fee or charge, eonsequently without any hesitation to call for help on account of possible cost." Another very eminent doctor, the personal physician to Sir Winston Churchill, Lord Boran had this to say, "if consultants were asked whether they desired to go back to the old days I believe the overwhelming majority would prefer the conditions of today." Throughout this whole

article in the British Medical Journal we find quotations supporting their scheme. I frankly admit, Mr. Speaker, that there are also in here some adverse remarks in connec tion with the scheme. For it is generally admitted that in this scheme as there is in the s chemes in New Zealand and Australia that there are deficiencies in it.

But the main point of the thing is that it has been accepted by the Medical profession in Great Britain and that the Medical profession in Great Britain are convinced of the scheme or the value of the scheme and would not go back to the hodge-podge system of health welfare that we have here in the Dominion of Canada. This is a quotation of Dr. Hector R. McClennan in the

article . He says that "one of the better features of the national health services is that the conditions allow the consultant to practice either whole time or part time. The value of this system is that it allows the consultant to choose the form of service Y!lrlch suits his own particular temperment, and gives the patient freedom of choice of specialists which ... otherwise would be unobtainable • " The criticizms trui.t we have heard here has been that there is no freedom for the doctor, that there is no freedom for the patient. Such is not the case as one discovers reading this great journal.

What they have found, Mr. Speaker, in Great Britain is simply this, that as the result of the institution of a comprehensive health plan in Great Britain that they have achieved a far healthier and happier oountry; they have cut down the loss of time element from work as a result of illness; and they have proven it to be in the best interests of the people of Great Britain. And we suggest, Sir, that it is time that we here in Canada join in this forward movement. It has been done in Australia and I have quotes here of · Australia. It has been done in New Zealand, and many other countries .

I suggest, Sir, that it is time that we did it here in the province or Dominion of Canada. And while it may be true that this is not a field of endeavour which is wholly within the confines of this provincial June 12th, 1959 Page 47

administration, I suggest that the provincial authorities could show initiative by advancing a scheme of this nature with the dominion authorities such as has been done in the field of hospitalization. I have, Mr. Speaker, before me ,. this amendment. I make no apologies for proposing it again - it is the same amendment which we pr oDosed at the last ses sion of the last Legislature .

It bothers us not that it is worded the same, because we of our party will continue to fight until we have established this advanced form of social service in Canada; continue to fight for it until we and the people of Canada have parity with some of the other forward-looking countries in this old battered world of ours. Therefore, Sir, I move seconded by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, that the following words be added to the motion as amended, "We further regret the failure of the government to take the initiative in promoting a comprehensive Federal-Provincial health insurance plan." Mr.

Speaker read the motion. MR. PETERS: (Elmwood) Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Logan that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker put the question, and following a voice vote, declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture that the House adjourn and stand adjourned until 2:30 Monday afternoon. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 2:30 Monday afternoon. Page 48 June 12th, 1959

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-1-4
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 1st hansardpdf 4.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6ee0eacb900830c31f2f4179618a443fd89ae05c

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).