VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, ~AY 14, 1980 NO. 42 ---- -------

May 14, 1980 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape NO. 1520 EL - l MR. SPEAXER (Simms): order, please. On behalf of hon. members I would like to welcome to the Gallery today a representative fro111 the Co.11111unity Co~mcil of &kkovilc, Councillor James Anderson from the district of Tornqat Mountains. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAXER: The han. the Minister of Justice • MR. G. O'l"l'ENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I .ua sure All members of the hon. Bouse will join me in expressions ~f condolences on the recent death of Fire Chief cecil Sooley and indeed I would move, Mr.

Speaker, that you communicate to the vidcv and fAaily of the late Fire Chief the condolences of the House. As hon. members may be aware, the late Fire Chief joined the St. Jobn' s !'ire ·.'Dep,;artment in 1938 and rose throuqh t.'le ranks to finally become Chief of the force and indeed served in the force for over forty years. t.zld I know that All hon. ~rs vill vish to join - in requesting Your Honour to write the vidDV and fAaily of the late Fire Chief to express our condolences OD his pasainq and our apprec­ iation of his service to the city and the Province. MR. SPEAXER: MR.

D • .JAMIESON: 'l'he hon. the Leader of the apposition; Mr. Speaker, we on this side are happy to be associated with this motion and if it is the appropriate thinq to do, I -uld be more than happy to second it. MR. SPEADR: You have heard the motion. Those in faYOr, aye. Contrary, aay. carried. I 'Wuld like to also welcoae to the qalleries on behalf of hon. llelllbers, the 'l'aVn Man.aqer fro111 the town of Stephemrille, MJ:. Jobn Warren. SO ME HOlf. MEMBERS: He&r, hear. ORAL Q!JB!'l'IONS MR. SPEAJER: The bon. the ae.ber for L&Poile. 3973 -- -- --'-·-

Mcy 14, 1980 Tape No. 1520 EL - 2 MR. S. NEARl': Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier and it has to do with the continuing saga of the fish war that this Province has declilred on the rest of Canada. The Minister of Fisheries (J.

Morgan) now has said he does not have time to meet with his counterpart in Nova Scotic to discuss the philosophy, the policy of the Newfoundlcnd government and,as a result, the fishermen in my own district of LcPoile, a.lonq the Southwest coast, and on the Burin Peninsula are very concerned that if they go over off Nova Scotia one of these days the quns -y be pul.led out. would the hon. the Premier indicate to the House ,if he will instruct his Minister of Fisherie~ , if he can spare a half an hour off the televisi~n or off the radio stations, to meet with his counterpart, the Minister of Fisheries over in Nova Scotia,to discuss this matter to see if they can straighten it out to the mutual satisfaction of Nova Scotia and Newfoundland?

MR. SPEAJ:ER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECXFORD: Mr. Speaker, I know that the hon. member for LaPoile(S.Neary) is cfraid of the Minister of Fisheries, but I am sure he is ~ite capable of answering the question. MR. s. NEARY: A ~upplementary, Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAICER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. s.~: Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. gentleman is in the s~ mood as the Minister :of Justice (G. Ottenheilller) yesterday when he - MR. SPEAXER: Order, pleasel Mll.. S. NEARY: - when he vas caught nappinq.

I iiiB askin9 the hon. 9entleman in view of the serious natu:!!'e of this problem that this Province has stirred up by declaring war on the other provinces of Canada, would the hon. qentl.-n thinlc. that it would 'be wise and diplomatic and tactful for hila to ask his Minister of 3974

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1521 DW - l ... MR. S. NEARY : Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) to meet with his counterpart from Nova Scotia to discuss this matter before the situation deterioratesto the extent that nobody will be talking and the next thing the guns will he out? MR. SPEAKER (Sim11ts): The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECK?ORD: ~lr. Speaker, I have already indicated that the Minister of Fisheries can answer that question quite capably. And I do not see any problem that the hon. memper for taPoile (Mr. Neary) supposedly preceives in this whole matter. MR . S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. membe~ for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am asking the hon. gentleman if he would ask his Minister of Fisheries bec~use, after all, the hon. gentleman appoints .members to the Cabinat ·. The minister has refused, the Minister of Fisheries has stated publicly that he does not have time- MR. W. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAICER: Order. please! a point of order, the bon. Presid ·ent of the Coanci.l. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, the bon. member in the firs .t place is not asking a question, he is making a speech, In the other case, he quite obviously, from the few words that he is uttering, indicating that he is multiplyinq with a very s:liqht variation a, question already answe!:.: .~ !_which ~s c~n:t~a _r_r_ _t~ the rules , and parliam.!~~-a=y­ pr~cedares as set forth in Beauchesne. 3975

May 14, 1980 Ta pe No. 1521 DW - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): With respect to the point of order,unless hon. members wish to speak to it 1 I will quote for the benefit of hon. members Standing Order 31 (

c) which says, "In putting any oral questions, no argument or opinion is to be offered nor any facts stated except so far as may be necessary to explain same". I will ask the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) to direct his question. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know how I can get at this because this is a very serious matter, very urgent. It is an urgent matter of public importance where the fishermen of this Province are concerned. Thos~ who go over to Sydney Bight, over off the Nova Scotian coast,are wondering, Mr.

Speaker, if they are going to be shot at ~f they go over there in view of the fish war that has been - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! But does the hon. member have a question? If he does,he should direct it. MR. S. NEARY: I want to find out from the han. the Premier if the government of this Province will agree to meet a representative of the Government of Nova Scotia to discuss this matter before further deterioration sets in? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have already indicated ~ that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) is quite capable of answering that que~~!=~.And thereftire if the hon. member for LaPoile wants to ask the question to the Minister of Fisheries,I am sure he is.willing, prepared and capable of answering. 3976

May 14 . 1980 Tape No. 1521 ow - 3 ~R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Leader of t~e Opposition . MR. D. JAMIESON: Mr. Sp.eaker 1 I h.ave a question for the Premier which, I think, he might deem to be wit~in his responsibilities to answer. Would the Premier, given the seriousness of this situatio~ consider instituting talks with his counterpart 1 namely the ?remier of Nova Scotia, who must be as equally concerned as we are over some of t~e utterances of his Minister of Fisheries,to find out at the very least whethe r Mr . Camer~n. the Minister of Fisheries, is 3977 ·---_., ... ·-..... -... ~ --·-··--· ------·-- - -------- --:--""---·------~·- ~- ....

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1522 NM - l MR. JAMIESON: stating government policy in Nova Scotia or whether in fact he has the backing of the Premier of that province? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Absolutely, Mr. Speaker. As a matter of fact the last two or three weeks I have spoken to the Premier of Nova Scotia on a number of occasions about the problems and issues that we have in common both as members of Confederation and as sister provinces, especially as it relates to the fishery.

In recent days, and in the last week and a half or two weeks,I have not spoken to Premier Buchanan but obviously after consultation with the Minister of Fisheries for this Province, I would only be too happy to pursue the matter with the Premier of Nova Scotia. MR. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER: the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: A supplementary. A supplementary, the han.

Leader of Given the way in which the Premier on other issues has indicated that, following standard procedure, he opens up conversations at the First Minister level and then assigns his ministers to do it, would he assign his Minister of Fisheries to talk to the Minister of Fisheries of Nova Scotia as a result of his conversations with the Premier of Nova Scotia? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have no intention at all to do by the backdoor what I was not prepared to do by tha frontdoor. MR. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: A supplementary.

A final supplementary, the hen. Leader I am afraid I am not quite sura that I can understand the answer the Premier gave. What I am saying to him seems to me to be perfectly in order with what he has himself described as the procedure, namely that he would talk to the Premier of Nova Scotia, one of whose ministers has made certain comments which at the very laast can be described as being of concern, and if he says, "Yes, we think we should 3978

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1522 NM - 2 MR. J~~: get together on this, "then would the Premier not feel it was the appropriate thing for the Ministers of Fisheries of both provinces, perhaps indeed of all four Atlantic Provinces, to have a conversation on this subject? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PEC!!_ORD: It is very hypothetical, Mr. Speaker, and I will wait and see just exactly what happens in talks that I have with the Premier of Nova Scotia, and talks that I have with the ~linister of Fisheries, and then we will play it from there.

But I am not going to prejudge the situation and set up certain hypothetical presuppositions which might therefore dictate some way that I want to go in the future. But obviously we will look at it and we will take a look at the seriousness of the situation, the gravity of the situation and play it from there. We are not going to make any statements based upon some hypothetical reasoning that the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) might want to enter into. MR. JAMIESON: It is not hypothetical, it is in the papers. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for St. Mary's-The Capes. MR. HAN~: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In ~he absence of the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett), I would like to address my question to the Premier. In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that we are now headed into the 1980 constr~ction season, would the Premier inform this House as to when we can expect contracts to be let for road construction or reconstruction and paving this season? And does the minister have a list yet prepared of what and where road construction will take place this year? MR. SPEAKER:· The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we are in the final throes of putting th'at together.

I would not like to put a time frame on it, but very, very shortly we will be in a position to indicate the projects that we will be undertaking in this present construction season. 3979

May 14 , 1980 MR . Ell'-"'COCK: MR. SPEAKER (Simms)_;_ st. ~"so'!J1he; ~$ , •. MR . !iAN COCK : ~~M :Nl:! ~ !1:'52~ NM - ·3 A. 'supplementary. ·~· ·~~itl!Y• · • holt •., member 'for ~ you;r &. ~el!.. ~n ,;tli •;.,~ ~ tel~~ ~ · ~~ ~t. · tc tQwn council.s .~ them that. -~ 0'11 ... Uq!t programmes ~U ;,. si<:~ i:n ~ communi ties ~ ~? 39 80 " ·~·

May 14,1980 Tape No. 1523 AH-1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD : The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr.Windsor) is present and therefore he can answer that question. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, we are presently again in the final stages of completing the programme for this year and within the next week,hopefully,councils will be notified. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.member for Terra Nova. MR.LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr.Brett), I have a question for the Premier. It is in relationship to the St. Brendan's ferry service, a run that is being done by a boat that has long since outlived its usefulness in t~~ _of its capacity to provide safe and comfortable and efficient service. The question to tne Premier is I am wondering if he is aware of any representation or any correspondence that has been made to his government, namely the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr.Brett) in recent days concerning the St.

Brendan's ferry service and if so ic he is aware of what action has been taken re. this correspondence or whatever? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am aware of a number of ferry operations in the Province which.are having difficulties,not-the least of which is the Fogo Island system, the Bell Island system,and systems in my own constituency. As the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr .Bi:ett) has made public on a number of occasions,both in this House and outside 1there is a study underway right now to try to tationalize the whole ferry system.

I have on a number of occasions spoken to, I think it was the operator of the ferry service dealing with the St. Brendan's area , and I have seen some correspondence,but what we are trying to do is to deal with the whole ferry system in the Province on a provincial basis and not 3981

May 14,1980 Tape No. 1523 AH-2 P~~IER PECKFORD: just try to plug the hole in the dyke in one particular area. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, 1-!r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementaz-J. The hen. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the residents of St. Brendan's, the law-abiding citizens of St. Brendan • s, the industrious and hard-working people of St.

Brendan's were forced yesterday to take a drastic move because of government naglect in the sense that their regular ferry service was to go in for dry dock , go in for repairs and its annual refitting,and the backup ferry service was the one that was going to provide far less adequate service than the present ferry service,if ~~at is possible, so the people occupied the ferry to demonstrate to their government their concern over this matter in not wanting this particular ferry to go on the service.

M~· question to the Premier is, what action is the government taking with respect to providing adequate backup ferry services to those islands when their regular ferry service has to go on dry dock for its annual reiitting? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: That is one of the problems now, Mr.Speaker, that is being addressed by the committee that is established to look at the whole ferry service system in the Province.

One of the -great problems is that in the Spring or Fall or Summer, or whenever it happens to be a particular primary ferry boat has to go on dry dock, thereby bringing into service a less adequate, inferior 3982

May 14, 1980 Tape 1524 EC - l PREMIER PECKFORD: transportation mode to be used while the primary ship or ferry boat is on dry dock, it is a very difficult probl6111 because you are talking about a large expense of money to have available a pool of back-up ferries that can provide a decent service while the primary ferry is beinq refitted as it has to under the CSI and other requlations that are oper.lltive. So we are looking at and trying to rationalize the whole ferry system in the Province provincially 1 and not just pick out St. Brendan's or Greeruspond,or pick out Fogo or Bell Island, or pick out St.

Barbe and across the Straits, or pick out Little Bay Islands and St. Patricks and the Bonne Bay service. We are trying to do it and rationalize the whole system and try to have a pool toqether. So we are working on the problem. It is not an easy one to solve. We are goinq to try to solve it. We have experts now trying to give recommendations to government as to how best to solve it. We are quite aware of the problem and we will try to do all we can to solve it. MR. T. LUSH: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for Terra Nova. A final. supplementary, the hon. the member MR. T. LUSH : Mr.

Speaker, the problem is temporarily solved at this moment. I mentioned that the ferry was to come in and to just go for two weeks while the reqular ferry was in for annual refit and the reason that people objected in the main was that it could not carry cars. But I have said that the problem is partially solved because toda.y, when the inspector came out from the CSI 1he turned the boat down for carrying of passengers as well. But the point of the matter is that at least it is only temporary. SOME HOM. MEMBERS : Oh., oh! MR. SPEAKEa: Order, please! MR. T.

LUSH: My question to the Premier is would the Premier undertake to see that this matter is looked into iumediataly and, in so doing, can he also allude to how these boats are inspectedi., the fact that a boat can COllie to an area to be okayed to carry passengers, an inspector takes a look at it and turns it down on the spot when it was supposed to go on the run today? 3983

May 14, 1980 Tape 1524 EC- 2 MR. SPEAKER (S:!Jmas) : The hon, the Premier. P!IEMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have already indicated that we are aware, as the bon~ member well knows, of incidents of this sort that are now happeninq on the st. Brendan's service. They are happening al~ over the Province. The people in the Department of Transportation and Communications are in daily contact when these kinds of problems co- up. So the qovarnment is aware of what is happeninq riqht new in the St. Brendan's syst-, there is no question about that.

The whole question of CSI, as the hon. lllelllber knows . just as well as I do - or if he does not, he should know - and I would ask him to get involved in. knowing that the csr people are very, very strict as to what is available. I have c;one through the process myself on a nUIIIber of occasions as it relates to the ferry syst- in my own area.

If the bon. member is iJDplying that for so- stranqe reason the Government of N-foundl.and has sent a boat out which looks to be okay and then suddenly is turned down.:. how COllie we would send it out lcnowinq that it was going to be turned down?­ if the hon. llllllllber knows anything about the CSI , sometimes they will turn a boat down just because you do not have a particular liqht on the riqht side of the wheelhouse. You know, it qats fairly technical and rather petty on ocoasiou. And I have known that to happen.

So that is how that kind of incident can occur even though ~ ·mi13ht itllve !:leett- some- implicit 3984

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1525 SD - 1 PREMIER PECXFO.Rl: blessinq in the provincial qovernment's sendinq the ferry out in the fir.st instance. That becomes far mora comple• and a matter of really detail and not principle and therefore, one, that is not really one that can be anpered in this kind of question and answer period that we have here in the House of Assembly today.

Let me just qo on record as reusurinq the bon. ~er that we are doinq all that we can to ensure that all the ferry systems in the Province are beinq handled in the most adequate manner possible to qive the best service to the people of those places especially those people who are served who live on islands. MR. SPEAICER: (Simms) The bon. member for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: Yea, Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Education (Ms. L. Verqe).

I under.stood the minister the other day to say that the rationale for puttinq the $300,000 for French instruction into qeneral revenue was the fact that other provinces in Canada do the same thinq, that we would be followinq a trend which has been set across canada. Are these words that I ha'Ve just said cor%ect, or do indeed all of the other provinces or sclll8 of the other provinces put these French funds into qeneral revenue? MR. SPEAICER (S:bmls): The hon. the Minister of Education. MS. L. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, that is an accurate d•scription of what I said as one of the factors taken into consideration by this go'Vemment in arrivinq at its plana where for next year's bllinqual p:roq:ralllllll!s in our schools. Apparently mosu if :not all of the other provinces in the past have put the qr.nts fro11 Secretary of State for bilinqual proqr-a into their qeneral revenue fund and at any rate have only ended up uainq a fraction of those qrants for bilinqual proqrammes.

And, of caar.se, for most of the other provinces, particularly Quebec and Ontario,.. the 111110unts imrolved. are much,much larqer because they are qiven out on a per capita basis and because of this past practice it seeJU that the federal qova:rnment will be withdrilWinq fr0111 this kind of fonula fundinq. MR. J. HODDER: Suppleamtaey, Mr. Speaker. 3985

May 14, 1980 MR. SPEr.xER (Simms) : Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: Tape No. 1525 SD - 2 Supplementary, the hen. member for Yes, in response to the minister's answer, which I thought would be her answer, I checked with Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and a nllllher of the provinces. Prince Edward Island has one account and - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAJCER: MR. J. HODDER: in one year they spend it - MR. SPEr.xER: MR. HODDER: Oh, oh: Order, please: - if they do not spend all of the money Order, please: This is the

preamble, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEr.xER: The hon. member is probably getting into the area of debate and if he has a supplementary he should put it. MR. J. HODDER: Does the lllinister :reali:ilie that in the Province of Ontario, lf the money is not spent in one year on French education it is kept over for the next year? That in Nova Scotia there is a speci;U. account that goes direc:tly to the school boards?

Does the minister realize that in New Brunswick the money goes into general revenue but much more of it ia spent on the French because they have French schools and much more than the allotted amount is spent on French? That British Columbia has a special account - MR. SPEr.xER: Order, please l ' MR. J. HODDER: - does the minister realize now - I will get to my question, Mr.

Speaker - that the majority of provinces in Canada are spending their money correctly and, my question to the minister, who is advising her in this case and does not this sort of explode the rationale for wbich she haa withdrawn the money from the teaching of French in school? 3966

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1526 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Education. MS. L. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, this Province in the past iU1d for next year will be spending much more money on bilingual programs,on the teaching of French than we get from the Federal Government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear! MS. L. VERGE: The bulk of the cost of French instruction in our schools in the font of salaries for regular French teachers, in the font of- SOME HO!I. MEMBERS: Ob, oh MR. SPEA!ER: Order, please. MS. L. VERGE: - basic learning materials is financed directly by the Province.

All that we were talking about in recent days is the grant.ll freta Secretary of State which are designed by the Federal Government for special extra programs ranging from exchange trips for students from this Province and students from French speaking areas of the country to field trips on weekends for high school students to visit St; . Pierre and Kicquelon 1 to extra learning materials~ _ ~ilms_ and poaten.

All we are talking about that has ever been paid for by the !'ederal Govern- ment in this Province are these special proqra.s,and my infontation from my o•ficials who are involved in arranging these programs through the Council of Education Ministers on a national basis, is that some of the other provinces have not ljsed these special grants for the special proqr illll8 for which they are intended by the Federal Gove=-ent; they are used in other areas of education or other gcvenwent programs • MR. J. HODDER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPDDR: A fiDal suppl-ury, the bon. the Member for Port au Port,followed by the hen. the member for Torngat Moantaina. MR. J. HODDER: I aight uy that what I - · talJdnq about too is the special grants for special things such as the multi-media 1 3987 • I '

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1526 EL- 2 MR. J. HODDER: and I 110ul.d also say in askinq the question that the other p~vinces of CanAda do use this special money for special pzojece. whether they 90 into g~u revenue or not. But I 110ul.d ask the lllinister another specific question. I understand nov that one of the big programs, where teachers fzoa all ac:rOsa the Province went to S~phenville for a month of intensive hench training each S\lllllle%' 1 that although this will go ahead ttis ecminq SUID$er, officius in her ciepartaent have told ae that they plan to close it next SIDIIIer.

Woul.d the minister cOIIIIIIeJlt on that, please? MR. SPEAJ:ER (Simms): The hon. the llinister of Education. MS. L. VEJIGE: Mr. Speaker, I will. repeat aqain that my info:r:mation is that se'Teral of the other pzovinces have not been usinq the special foraul.a grants from Secretary of State for the kind of speciu bil.iDgual. · pzoqrams for which they have been ill tended. As for French traininq in Stephenrill.e, to my knowledge that has not been paid for out of the fo%11Ul.a qrants. Noll, - --- --··-- ...... -- ··-- Mil. HODDER: The hellch sc:hool.s in Stephenvil.l.e(inaudibl.e). MS. L. VEIIGE: No, Mr.

Speaker, to my knovledqe,-any P:nmc h school in Stephenvil.le has not been funded out of these same for~a grants from SeCret:uy of Stabl that we are talking about . MR. BOD1lBR: What about the special schools for French teachers ? ' Mil. SPEAJ:ER: Order, please. 3966

May 14, 1980 MS. VERGE: question as notice. ~R. SPEAKER (Simms): gat Mountains. MR. G. WARREN: Tape ~o. 1527 DW - 1 Mr. Speaker, I will take that The hon. the member for Torn- Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health (Mr. House). On March 28th. it was announced in the Budget that there would be an emergency air ambulance programme for this Province. Could the minister advise when that e~ergency air ambulance programme will become effective? MR. SPEAKER: :tR. W. HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I think this is two or three times I have answered that question in the House.

The answer is still the same, as soon as it gets through ... - - the sys~em and through the various government committees it will be announced.And I have advised people via the media of that and I ;have also told the hon. member in the House and on ·---- - other occasions that I cannot say when it will be in effect. It is in process now and as soon as we get that through the system it will be announced. MR. G, WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: for Torngat Mountains. MR. G. WARREN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member Mr.

Speaker, I find it ironic that the minister - this is the third time r have asked him the question and the third time I got the same answer. !o probably I will get·the same answer if I ask him in October. I am surprised that it does take forty-five days for such a programme. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member is debating. He should ask his ~uestion. 3989

:-lay 14, 1980 Tape No. 1527 ow - 2 MR. G. WARREN: My supplementary, Mr. Speaker, is that

whereas it takes forty-five days for this programme to come through the system and trying to get a flag through the system in eight days, I am just wondering if the hon. minister could advise the House if the programme will be in effect this year? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. S. NEARY: MR. W. HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Health. Give us a straight answer,now. Mr. Speaker, one of the things I thank him for he said ! gave the same answer three times. I am a very consistent person - l~R. G. WARREN: Sure you are! MR. W. HOUSE: - and I am very accurate. I am not going to - ~r.

Speaker, we announced in the Budget that there would be a programm~ I would assume it will be in effect this year,but I have to wait for it to get through the system to give a definite answer. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. D. HOLLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the hon. the Premier in his capacity as Premier and also Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier in relation to the debate which was held in this House concerning the fisheries and the stand that we have taken as Newfoundlanders and Canadians that we should be able to catch and process the TAC annually~if he and his administration still support the synchrolift for St. John's? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not understand the

preamble, but I think that the hon. member's question~outside of his

preamble-we have consistently supported the synchrolift and ·- - ~- - -- see that as not being disadvantageous to the stand as it relates to the fishery. So therefore the question is linked both to what the Province's position is on fisheries 3990

:·tay 14 . 1980 Tape No. 1527 DW - 3 PREMIER PECKFCRD: matters and somehow that is incompatible with our stand on the synchrolift.And so that therefore if that is implicit L~ the ~ uestion. I ~oulc rej ect t~at kind of inconsistenc y. 3991

May 14, 1980, Tape 1528, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Simms): MR. HOLLETT: The han. member for a SUFplementary. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The reason I ask is because I understand the agreement between CN and Industry, Trade and Commerce, the whole concept of the synchrolift for St. John's is based on a very large Russian fishing fleet within our 200 mile limit and immediately adjoining. And I can only assume that if the present administration supports the synchrolift here, they also support this large Russian fishing fleet fishing within our 200 mile limit. SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. HOLLETT: MR.

SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD : Inside. Inside. The han. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I think the han. member is very - you know, his

preamble is very e=oneous • We support the synchrolift on the basis that they can attract business to them. That business, as we understand it, is not within the 200 mile limit or in the areas that we are arguing for jurisdiction, arguing for control, arguing for access, so that, therefore, there is no inconsistency in it at all as far as we can tell the situation ~ There are a number of companies from around the world that are fishing within their rights and have nothing to do with our particular,specific stand on the fishery. MR. SPEAKER: for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR.

F.B.P.OWE: A new question, the hen. the member Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries as it relates to the Fisheries Loan Board and eligibility regulations therein. WOuld the minister indicate what regulations are being used to process applications for fisheries loans through the Fisheries Loan Board, the applications that were sent in before May 9, and that were considered by the Fisheries Loan Board before May 9, whether it was the old regulations or the 3992

May 14, 1980, Tape 1528, Page 2 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: new regulations encompassed in his Ministerial Statement on May 9? MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER(Si.mms) : MR. MORGAN: Or were there any regulations at all . The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, in reply to that question, the Cabinet approved the regulations a few days before they were made known to the House of Assembly and the Loan Board's operations were guided by the new regulations effective of the approval by the provincial Cabinet. That means all applications processed from that date- I think it was the 5th. of May.

It was announced in the House the 9th. of May, I think it was, last week and the 5th. of May it was approved by Cabinet - so effective from the day it was approved by the Provincial Cabinet, these regulations went back to the Loan Board and the Loan Board was then asked to be guided in accordance with the new regulations. Therefore,.all applications since that date going before the Board, are now being dealt with under the new regulations and new guidelines. MR. F.B.ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: for Trinity - Bay de Verde . MR. F .B.ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the member Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that I understand there are approximately 1,000 applications still to be processed by the Fisheries Loan Board, what in effect is happening is that quite a number of fishermen have made applications based on the old regulations, whatever they were, and, therefore, are being eliminated outright now because some of them have not, in fact, had seventy-five per cent of their total earnings in the last two years in the fisheries and they had not necessarily been completely involved in the fisheries for the past couple of years, I was wondering if the minister would give some special considerations to these hundreds, well,upwards to 1,000 3993

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1529 NM- 1 MR. F. ROWE: applications that went in to the . Fisheries Loan Board, presumably on the basis and assuming that the old regulations were going to be used, will special consideration be given to these fisherrr~n who made these applications prior to May 9th. and the 5th., when the regulation was passed by Cabinet, will special consideration be given to these applications and these fishermen who sent in their application prior to that date based upon really the old rules? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman mentioned in his

preamble to the question that there was some 1,000 applications~ That is no longer correct. That was information I gave the House back the early part of March. MR. F. ROWE: I got it from your official this morning. MR. MORGAN: And since that time the applications have been going through the Loan Board at the rate of - I do not know the exact number at the last meeting,but the Loan Board have been meeting on a regular basis, a~ost every week since that time, processing as many as possible of the applications with the new funds allocated in this year's budget. As to going outside the regulations, Mr.

Speaker, I want to assure the House, as I assured the House when I announced the regulations, these regulations are firm. They are firm guidelines and we intend to make sure that the Board operates within these guidelines. Now if there are fishermen or people who made application before the guidelines became law,I guess you could call it, before they were approved by· Cabinet, the regulations, the fishermen who applied before that time if they could not qualify ncw,they should not have qualified then. MR. F. ROWE: Oh,no! MR.

MORGAN: Because what we are saying is any person ----- who fished for the last two fishing seasons in their own respective areas of the Province, and who have earned at least seventy-five per cent of their 3994 1 -

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1529 NM- 2 MR. MORG~ income from the hanresting sector, can qualify for a loan. Anybody outside of that will not qualify until they get at least two years in the fishery, from your crewmen or share­ men or owning their own boat, cannot qualify for assistance. So if we start bending the regulations for one category of fishermen 1 you have to bend them for them all. And I have always said, Mr. Chai:r::man, my policy will be not to make cha.ulk of one and cheese of another. The guidelines will be fi:r::m, made known to all fishermen, and the Board will operate within these guidelines. MR.

SPEAKER {Simms): Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. I would like to welcome to the galleries on behalf of hen. members the Chai:r::man of the Council from the town of Grand Le Pierre, Mr. George Fizzaid, from the district of Fortune-Hermitage. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3995 ~

\- May 14, 1980 Tape 1530 EC - 1 NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have a number of motions. Perhaps I can give them all at the one standing. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that this House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions related to the raising of loans by the Province.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions relating to the Loan and Guarantee Act (1957) , I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions related to the Local Authority Guarantee Act (1957) • I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions for granting of Supplementary Supply to Her Majesty.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled "An Act Respecting An Increase Of Certain Pensions." I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled "An Act To Amend Financial Administration Act {1973)." MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Further notices? Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Premier. In the absence of the Minister of Mines and Ener-;ry CMr. L. Barry), Mr.

Speaker, I would like to give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled "An Act To Incorporate The Newfoundland And Labrador Petroleum Corporation." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: and Housing. The hen. the MiniAter of Municipal Affairs 399·6

May 14, 1980 Tape 1530 EC - 2 MR. N. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I woul.d like to table the answer to question number thirty-four, appearinq on the Order Paper number thirty-nine of Monday, May 12, 1980 in the name of the hon. the member for Eagle River (:4r. E. Hiscock). PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for st. Mary's - The Capes. MR. D. HANCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of the 180 ~tudents of Dunne Mamorial High School in the coumunity of St. Ma%y' s in my district.

This petition is in response to a letter or a poll that I sent out to the students just after the flag came in . I tried to get their opinion of what exactly they thought of the flag, being the younger generation coming up. The petition is accompanied by a letter which says 1 "In response to your letter, you will. find enclosed a petition with the signatures of 180 high school teachers and students from Dunne Memorial. Riqh School firmly" - and they have it underlined - "firmly rej ectinq the proposed new flag.

We, as a group, hope you will present this petition in the House of Assembly." The poll. was on 1.80 students in the school: 88 per cent of the students rejected the new design for the flag. The prayer of the petition is: "We, the undersigned , as students and teachers of Dunne Memorial. High School., St. Mary's, strongly believe that Newfoundland should have its own unique flag. However, - do not and cannot support the present flag designed by Mr. Christopher Pratt as the flag for Newfoundl.and. even tho119h we do compliment Mr. Pratt fer his originality.

We think the flag should display some form or design which is uniquely Newfoundland's. The only thing we like about the flag are the col.ours red, white and blue." Mr. Speaker, I have to support this petition because I firmly believe from the response I got last night when I went home and the number of cal.ls I have had and the petitions and letters that are coming in 1that everybody in my district is against the flag. 3997

May 14, 1980 Tape 1530 EC - 3 MR. D. HANCOCK: I think , Sir, we, as elected members of any district around this Province, should listen to what the people in our districts have to say. SOME HON. MEMBEilS : Hear, hear! MR. D. HANCOCK: I think the government, rather than try to rush this through the House of Assembly, should go back to the people and find out exactly what they want. MR. SPEAKER (Silmls) : Order, please! The hon. member is debating tha petition and that is not permitted. MR. D. HANCOCK: That is about all I have to say, Mr.Spealcer. I ask that the petition be laid on the table of the House.

Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hen. ~~e member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ablv presented by my colleague, the meuber for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. D. Hancock) on behalf of a large number of his constituents who are deadly opposed to the design of the new provincial flag. Now, Mr. Speaker, we have heard argument from the other side of the House that this flag would grow on you, that the young people in this Province approved of the new flag, but here is con=ete evidence, Mr. Speaker, that the young people do not approve of that design.

And this is typical of the reaction throughout the whole Province. I would say, if the people of this Province, young .ind old, middle-aged, alike were polled today, the Premier and the goverrunent would discover that 98 per cent or 99 per cent of the citizens of this Province, young and old, are opposed to the design of this flag. What is happening, Mr. Speaker, is that the Premier and the government are defying the people .• I have in front of me another telegram - this is the second telegram that I have received from my own district of LaPoile. It says, "On behalf of all members of Channel , --Branch ll 3996 \

' May 14,1980 Tape No. 1531 AH-1 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR.SPEAl<ER (Simms): On a point of order. The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is already into debate. The item before the House is a petition from the students of St. Mary's and not with respect to people from LaPoile. He is obviously transgressing into the areas of debate. The Standing Order quite clearly says that a petition is not to be debated, you are to confine yourself to remarks relating to the petition itself. MR.

SPEAKER: With respect to the point or order, I would quote Standing Order 92 for the benefit of the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). "Every member offering a petition" t..'lerefore anybody speaking to it,of course, ~~shall confine himself to the statement of the parties from whom it comes, the number of signatures attached to it and the l!laterial allegations it contains." In this particular case, I think the hen. member was beginning to drift into the area of debate. I would ask him .to confine himself to the area. MR. NEARY: I apologize to the Chair, Mr.

Speaker, but I do again want to reiterate what I said, that the £ouse, especially the Premier and members on the opposite side of' the House, should take note that the petitioners in this case are young Newfoundlanders, they are students in a high school in St. Mary's, the future adults of this Province, the future generation and , Mr. Speaker, these petitions, these protests, these objections to this monstrosity that the Premier is trying to force down the throats of this Province,are just pouring in. Whe~ever you go today, Mr.

Speaker, you go to the shopping mall, go down to the Avalon Mal~- -~~ people stop you; if you go to church on Sunday morning 1people will stop you. MR. SPBAKER: Order, please! The hen. member is again beginning to drift away from the petition. 3999

\ 11ay 14,1980 Tape No. 1531 AH-2 MR. NEARY: Well ,wherever you go young people, like th~ children that signed that petition,are against this design and when, Mr. Speaker, I ask the government, the Premier especially, when are they going to stop defying the people of this Province? SOME HON .MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. HISCOCK: Hear, hear: Any further petitions? The han. the member for Eagle River. I rise , Mr. Speaker, to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Forteau, Labrador.

This is regarding the transportation of children by way of school bus to the school and is directed to the Minister of Education (Ms Verge). Basically the prayer of the petition asks that these children enjoy the same right as children in other parts of the Province, the right to receive busing if you live more than a mile from the school.

Whereas now the bus does not go beyond the stage in Forteau,because the Department of Transportation has aaid that it is not suitable for the bus to ~avel over this roa~we now have to·pay $12 ~er month extra over and above our school fees. The contract ended up with the school board and the school board ended up giving the contract to this bus company. The bus company contacted the Department of Transportation, which said that the road was not suitable for busing.

As a result, this company basically refused to do any further busing and the school board revoked the contract 1 but the Department of Education overruled the school board and gave the contract back to this contractor. As a result the people in that area had to go and get a private bus from another company,over and above, pay school tax and end up having to pay $12 extra over and above what they are paying no~lly.

So I would like to present this petition on behalf of these people and hopefully this problem will be rectified and the money will be given back to these people who have had to spend it unnecessarilyw MR. WARREN: MR. HISCOCK: Who overruled the school board? The Department of Education. 4000

' May 14,1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for Port au Port. MR. liOPDa: Tape No. 15~1 AI!-:a further petitions? The hen. member I did not want to present-a petition, I just wanted to add a few words to the petition from the tnember for Eagle Elver (Mr .HiScock) • MR. SPEAKER: certainly. MR. HOOD§: Mr.

Speaker, this is a strange situation indeed where the school ®ard contracts with a school bus driver and then the school. bus driver is told by the Department of Transportatian ~ Cot!m~Wlications not to drive over a certain road, the SChoOl ®ard then Withdraws the fellow's contract and then the residents of the area have to pay $12, pay out of their own pockets to get their chil.dren t;o school. Now, Mr. Speaker, it draws attention to a couple o:f things.

Otie, I sup_pose it shows the kind of liaison that ehe flepar'bnent of Education has with the ~hool boards in this Province,but more important it points out the conditions, how bad the conditions of the roads in that particular area. Now, I woul.d sa:l!', Mr. Speaker I that if ! were a parent 4001

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1532 SD - 1 MR. J. HODDER: in Forte au, 1: would be demanding from the gover!Uilent that they pay me all back monies which had to be expended to get their children to school. But, Mr. Speaker, more important than that , 1: think if we look at school busing in this Province , the students who ha'W! to travel o'VI!!r unpaved z:oads, and there are many areas in the Province where they have to travel twelve to fifteen miles each day baCk and forth to school, Mr. Speaker, we have asked the Minister of Transportation and Co111111unications (Mr. c.

Brett) to co- up with some priori ties in this Province on roads and 1: believe, Mr. Speaker, that if there are priorities, if we ever do get around to priorizing what roads should be reconstructed and paved first, 1: think this should be one of the prime conditions, the areas where school children are bused for long distances. But, Mr. Speaker, this to me, if 1: he- Ill'/ hon. colleague from Eagle River (Mr. E. HiscoCk), seems to be an untenable situatio~ where the Department of Education would ~instate the bus driver who will not drive owr those roads, and now the children are exposed to the sue type of damaqe.

SO, Mr. Speaker, 1: suppose the onus is not only on the Minister of Education (Ms. L. Verq411) but on the Minister of Transportation and CoiDIWiicatioas, and 1: would urge both of those hon. ministers to look into this problem as quickly as possible to try to reach a solution for the people of Forteau. MR. G. !'LIGHT: MR. SPEA!CER: (Si.mms) Hear, hear! Let us hear the minister. The hon. the Minister of Education. MS.. I.. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I accept the petition on behalf of the q'overnment and the . oepart-t of Education.

My officials are aware of this problem and I will be wo:dting on it. 4002 "T~---·- ·-----·- ·····

,---- May 14, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. L. WOODROW: Tape No. 1532 so - 2 ORDERS OF THE OAY Motion 4. The bon. the member for Bay of Islands. Mr. Speaker, I would like to have some words to say on the motion presented by my hon. colleague from stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg) and may I say that I woUld rather see the caribou herd in the Bay of Islands increase so we would have l!Dre stags and less b~dworms out there. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. L. WOODROW: Mr.

Speaker, :representing a district vhe~ the general population is so heavily dependent on the forest industry for direct and indirect employment, the spruce budworm infestation has been the cause of real concern. With budworm infestation now in Central and Eastern regions 1 the problem is certainly a growing provincial issue affecting thousands of acres of forests with the threat of severe losses to the pulp and paper industry. The spruce budworm, Mr. Speaker, has inhabited the softwood forests of Eastern Canada for many years.

Its range stretches across the whole boz:eal forest region, North to the sixty-seventh parallel and in the subalpine and Montagnais forest of the West. Just, Mr. Spellker, c:ollli.ng closer to hOD!! and let us say to the district of the Bay of Islands, I would like to say that in 1978 I trawlled by helicopter with so- of our own colleagues and also sane colleagues from the Opposition over the Western part of the Province from Corner Brook,around Serpentine Lake,on out to Stephenville and at that particular time it was frightening to see the devastation that the spruce budworm had caused.

And with my hon. colleagues froa Huaber West (Mr. R. Baird) and from B'QIIt)er East (Mr. L. Verge) early in January we attended a meeting at the BoWater offices in Corner Brook and they ontlined to us in no 4003

't . May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1533 NM - 1 MR. WOODROW: uncertain tarms what damage the spruce budworm had done even since I took the trip by helicopter. So it has not gotten any better. The fact that is leading to the budworm outbreak appears to be the combination of large,continuous areas of susceptible forest and several consecutive years of warm, dry weather which favours the budworm' s survival.

Thus at irregular intervals the budworm has played a critical role in the development of the fir - spruce forests of Eastern Canada, killing off mature and over-mature stands and releasing young growth to establish a new forest. The spruce budworm is now playing this critical role throughout the Province, particularly in our Western region where destruction has been significant. Mr. Speaker, recognizing that the spruce budworm infestation is a serious threat to the forest industry, we must seek ways and means of con~rolling this environmental problem. First of all, Mr.

Speaker, it is generally agreed that no chemical agent is completely safe in its own right. In fact,all we can determine is that some chemLcals ' are safer than others, since the long-term effects on our environment and wildlife cannot be realistically proved. It is under these terms that our Province discontinued its spray programme and established the royal commission to fully examine all matters relating to the forest industry, including safety and viability of an extended spray programme.

As the minister has indicated on several occasions,the health and well being of our people must be of primary consideration and will not be compromised under any circumstances. Number two, , given the fact that there are no proven long-term effects of chemical spray on our ecosystem,we must pursue any course of action very cautiously and after full examination of all available research and information. The final report of the environmental 4004

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1533 NM- 2 MR. WOODROW: monitoring spruce budworm spray programme carried out by the Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment stated, "On the basis of results from medium tenn one year post spray monitoring of environment impact of spraying with matcail, there is no evidence of major disruption of terrestrial ecosystems attributable to spraying:' The report went on to say that there is however potential concern raised in the study. ''There were lower rates of production of juvenile birds in sprayed areas relative to unsprayed.

However, this may be due indirectly to spraying to reduce levels of budworm that are otherwise used by the birds as food. Further monitoring is necessary to determine whether this discrepancy is due to spraying or due merely to inherent differences along the sites themselves~· "The study concluded that MR. NEARY: Not allowed to read. -----MR. WOODROW: The results of - it is of such importance that it is dangerous,! would say 1to speak off the cuff. I suppose the hon. member always does. I do not know what he is saying half the tillle. AN HON. MEMBER: What? What? What? MR.

WOODROW: ~The study concluded that the results of environmental studies up to one year post spraying do not indicate significant negative impact on any of the biotic communities studied. From an environmental standpoint therefore we cannot put forward any reasonable argument against the continued use of matacil 4005 ""1--· -

"1 May 14, 1980, Tape 1534, Page 1 - apb MR. WOODROW: as a short-term management strategy provided that both short-term and adequate long-term environmental monitoring is carried out." MR. FLIGHT: MR. WOODROW: (Inaudible) long-term. Well, we would say to the hon. gentleman that perhaps that is one of the reasons why we would have the royal commission set up; we are trying to study every angle of it. And perhaps it may never, you know. "Similarly there appears to be no reason to consider the use of Bt environmentally harmful." We must keep in mind, however, Mr.

Speaker, that this is only one side of a very involved and complicated problem. There still remains a very critical question as to the long-term accumulative effects of these chemicals and the possible detrimental effects on the human population of prolonged chemical spraying. Indeed, we have witnessed the continued stream of briefs and reports from medical, environmental, industrial, biological and governmental officials, each presenting a particular point of view on the methods of controlling the spruce budworm infestation. So in view of all these, Mr.

Speaker, I feiel that the government certainly made the right decision not to go jump in head first and continue to spray this year. Despite this involvement,we still lack sufficient research and information on chemical spray programmes and the general public and, indeed, the forestry officials, continue to assess the success and possible effects of forest pesticides. Evidence from a long-term spray programme in New Brunswick seems to indicate that the budworm has not depleted and has, in fact, become more prevalent over a wider area. And I believe the State of 4006

l -· ···- - May 14, 1980, Tape 1534, Page 2 -- apb MR. WOODROW: Maine has also experienced similar frustrations. I understand that over the past quarter century spraying has been going on in New Brunswick and they have not killed the budworm completely, they have only controlled it.

Given these various experiences regarding the effectiveness of a chemical spray programme, and the controversy from a number of groups on the possible known and unknown hazards from long-term chemical use, I certainly congratulate the government on its decision to establish a royal commission to fully examine and analyze the present situation.

I welcome and support the establishment of a royal commission as it will provide up-to-date information and recommendations aimed at developing long-term initiatives for a productive forest industry in a number of areas, including the viability of an extended chemical spray programme. While we have, Mr. Speaker, the responsibility to protect our forests from the spruce budworrn infestation, we, along with the federal government and the forest industry also have a responsibility to develop sound forest management techniques to maintain and improve forest productivity.

Greater emphasis must be placed on salvage operations, stand conversion, bogland forestation, continued forest inventory and pre-chemical thinning if we are to have a stable and healthy forest resource. Mr. Speaker, the challenge posed by the spruce budworrn infestation is indeed a serious one. We must, however, examine fully all details, environmental and medical, before making a definitive decision on whether or not to carry out a full-scale chemical spray programme. 4007

~ · 1.4, D:9&"' 'l"ape 1:5'~4. Pa!)J·e ~ -- apb MR. WOODROW: .~. s:~:er~ ~e · ¢anciude 1ley' r.eraa:~tkS: t woutd l.itr.e t'

O) Q0~~~,'b~~:t~ ,.., AN HON. MEMBER: (i'ttaudJ:l)1~ ,)' .a;i.~: .c'ioW!l,. MR. WOODROW: 'fll .~t $hPw$ ~ ·~~·t: · ~ li~. ttt~ has. 'l!~'t .ts the hdl't. m~ who really $J?Oke .~ •~®.~, 4008 .~ ·-- -~·":,;··-::·-~ .. -·--- .. --.- -. ~ ~·'

\ May 14, 1980 Tape Ilo. 1535 DW - 1 MR. L. WOODROW: raised his hands and his arms and now he does not want to hear the facts. MR. S. NE~RY: ii'ather. MR. L. WOODROW: Why do you not go back to the Our He has been here rambling and roaring about Price and everything else - MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER (Butt): MR. L . WOOD RO W: 1978 spray programme (inaudible) Order, please! Mr. speaker, the past has gone. Let us forget it, the past has gone. That is what is wrong , you are living_in the past. Well, then let us forget the past and look to the future. I would like to conclude my brief remarks, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to congratulate my colleague for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) for his very responsible motion. rn fact, he is really always bringing up something of interest and something with substance in the House, wherever he. is, which I endorse and support without equivocation. I look forward to meaningful recommendations for the future protect ·ion of our forest resources at the conclusion of the Royal Commission findings. So, Mr.

Speaker , it is nic .e to know that this administration is proceeding, not with emotion, not really from the heart but fromnthe head, really thinking out every programme that they come up with. And I feel sure that when this Royal Commission has been established,~it is establishedr really but when it has done its work it will certainly be very beneficial to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and we will be able to continue our three great' paper mills, two on the west c·oast and one in Grand Falls. Thank you. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear: 4009

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1535 DW - 2 ~R. SPEAXER (Butt): The hon. member for Bonavista North . HR. L. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I too would like to congratulate the member for Stephenville (~r. Stagg) for bringing in this resolution and,as he said in his opening comments, 'The government has set up the Royal Commission'. Now, Mr. Speaker, I represent the great and historic .district of Bonavista North, a district that has been severely hit by forest fire and last year was hit again by forest fire and definitely needs the attention of the government.

Now, let us look at the question that we are really dealing with&The question we are really dealing with is how has this government,which has been in power for the last eight years,.. they have put in a different captain, a different leader but many of the same people are in the Cabinet.And in the . Throne Speech t4is year we talked in terms of the accountability, the desire of the government to become -accountable for their actions, the desire of the government to be ,..counted. And what do we have here in this whole question of the spruce budworm and the impact on the forest?

When did the government set up the Royal Commission~ Was it seven years ago when they first found out that they had a problem, when there was a serious problem affecting the forest -1972 . or 1973 or 1975 or 1977 or 1978? Row many reports did they have? What were the recommendations of their officials? Mr. Speaker, if it were parlia- mentary to say that this House has been misled I would be inclined bo use that expression 1but since it is not parlia- mentary to use it and I would be ruled out of order if I used it,I therefore would not use the expression. And if I 4010 r

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1535 D'tl - 3 MR. L. STIRLING: had ether colleagues who could --- find a better way of saying it,we would try to find a way to say that the people of Newfoundland, certainly those living in St. John's and on the Avalon Peninsula, the 4 011

May 14, 1980 ~- Tape No. 1536 EL - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: people who have year-round jobs not dependant directly on the forests,have absolutely no idea, they do not have the foqgiest notion that there are parts of Newfoundland in West ern and Central Newfoundland and moving towards this part of New- foundland where we have as much as eighty to ninety per cent of the forests dead. It is dead not because of the forest fires that everybody can see but it is dead because of the damaqe done by the spruce budworm.

When t~e minister was in committee, we asked him what vas the effect, wk&t vas the affect of this one year delay, because this ~t decided to spray. My colleague from Windsor-Buchans (G. Flight) has aiready brought up these points many times. This government - different e&ptain, different leader, essentially the same cabinet-were into a spray proqram.

They have been advised by every forestry official, ~y have been advised by their senior people to go ahead with a spray proqraa this year, tbat the Province was in depperate straits aDd the previous llinister, by the &dlaission of the present minister vas ready to proceed With a spray proqzaa when it was suddenly stopped. MR. F. WBI'l'Z: So was the (inaudible) MR. STI:RLING·S It vu stopped suddenly, maybe using a. ploy th&t the Mini11ter of Justice (G.Ottenheiaer) referred to. You re- meaber . ~en lilY colleague fro• Grand B&Dk (L.

Tholu) asked for a Royal COa.i.ssion into justice, iu , this Province, the Minister of Justice said, "Ch,DO, you do not set up a Royal eo-ission on so-ttinq as broad as that. ·You set up a Royal c~sion-aany times Royal c:.o.aisaions have been set up to qat rid of a probl-, to de~ taking action, to defuse a problea! 1and maybe that h what this -s all about. Maybe that is what this vas all about. The ainister, in co~ ttee, would not, under question!nq again and again and aqa.in, would not tell us what the 4012 --,-

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1536 EL - 2 MR. L. STIRLING~ effect was of the delay in the spray proqraa this yeax, would not tell us whAt the delay was. He said, 'Vell, it is available if you want to look it up;' Well, it is available by a study done for his department and the minister provided me with a copy. What he did not want to say in committee is what is said in that report 1 -th.t this one year delay- now, they do not .have a solution to the pcabl- 1 they just delayed the probl- for & year 1 - and this one year delay will have the effect, in one year, of destroying a six to eight year supply of wood.

The minister would not an.wer that question in the committee . He used in committee ;an answer that "oh, thirty years down the ~d ins.tead of being twenty-eight per ceAt we will be thirty-two per cent deficient. But' he would not face up and answer directly the question,aad it relates to the question that the Premier put to this Ho'IISe when - first -tr t'hAt this government wants to be~ accountable. Well, this government has been in force, has been in power for eight years- different he~~SI! --~~ferent pecple-and the time to set up the RDyal COBLission was ~-~~~~ years ago.

The time to have the responsibility for what are they going to do &bout the -nage- ment , when ara they going to do s-ething about the problea7 ~e are not, obviously, easy answers but it is no good just b'azying your he.ad in the sand and going on and on and on pretending the probl- is goinq to go &way. The lllelllber for Bay of Islands (L. Woodrow) just gave us some factual information based on some visi ta that he made - he almost was my colleaque. He ns the first declared Liberal in 1975 and then he went to the~. 50MB BON, MBMBBRS: Oh, oh ! MR. -L.

STIRLING: But he pr~~Wided ul!l with so.e good infor~a&tion , 4013

Nay 14, 1980 Tape No. 1536 EL -3 MR. L. STIRLING: solid infozmation, based on the fact that he -nt to the people - the nQ enemy, the new enemy that the qoVW!rmllel11t now has.

You remember that the minister mentioned and the · previous miniSter, --.;e -wlll not be forced by the paper CQIIIPallies~ They b&ve a new vill.in, somebody else to fiqht with, somebody else to set 1,1p another confrontation with, tbat the hundreds of employea from the Bay of IslaDds and Humber West au,d Stephenvi:Ue and Grand Falls and Buc:hans, aJ.l of the people who are dependent OD the~ industry, the minister treats those as . i£ they ue the villains aq~. They are r tey inq to mislead the people of NeWfoundland. All of the ezaployees, all of the waion workers, iLll the woods .4014 )

l --- May 14, 1980 Tape 1537 EC- 1 MR. L. STIRLING: workers, all the loggers, ~~ey are all the villains, a new group to fight with - not to accomplish very much, just to fight with. Mr. Speaker , I woul.d like to tell this House about one specific problem, and if every member had this problem in his district, he might be aware of the very desperate situation that this Province is in as a result of mismanagement. The desperate problem is the close down of a sawmill in the Gamba area. And in the committee meeting, I complimented the minister for the co-operation of his officials.

They all worked very hard in trying to get that mill reactivated.

But do you know why it could not be reactivated, those 100 jobs that could have been provided? ,Do you know why it could not be reactivated from public and private funds?I~ is because when it got right down to it, when there were hundreds of thousands of dollars of federal money or private money to be put into that mill, when it got right down to it, the Departme~t of Forestry, the officials, had to say, 'As a result of our latest estimates, 80 per cent to 90 per cent of that wood is dead - killed by the spruce budworm,' and that there is not a six to eight years supply of wood that can be guaranteed without going to Bowaters and asking for the timber rights thirty or forty miles away.

And the conclusion was that that mill could not be reactivated, not because of money, not because of maaagement - although it got into trouble in the first place because of management - but it could not be reactivated because there was not a wood supply that could last. I do not know if the Premier is aware of it. I do not ltnow if the message has gotten through from the officials through the various ministers, but there are many areas in Newfoundland today - and it is somewhat like the fisheries situation, it is somewhat like the situation in the fisheries where it was going to be tha new answer.

All the e9onomic problems, all the employment problems of the Province ·, all of those problems, the answer over the last eight or nine years was the fishery. Thank God, we got the 200 mile limit. And everybody was encouraged to go into the fishery to the point wher.e there was a flood of applications , 4015

May 14, 1980 Tape 1537 EC - 2 MR. L. STIRLING: mi.llions of dollars worth of applications - a thousand, as I understand it. The regulations now have been changed so that most of that thousand will not qualify - but an unreal expectation built up. People really thought that there was going to be a great future for thelll in the fisheries. And now the rules have been changed so that in fact the Fisheries Loan Board has said, 'Unless you have already been established in the fisheries for two or three years there is no money for you.' That information could have been given three years, five years ago.

There is nothing new that has not been predicted by the scientists. And in the logging industry and the sawmill industry, people have been given loans. They are going into debt head over heels, I was talking to two people who are up over their heads, but they really have no other choice. And thev have not been told the truth. The truth i11 that in many of the areas there is a very limited supply of wood - three years, five years, six years. Some of these sawmill operations have not been told the full story.

And the people who are living on the Avalon and the people who are employed in this building and the people who have jobs, regardless of what the government does - one of the real problems that we have in many places in Newfoundland is that everything that the government does in forestry and fishery, social services, everything that the government does, has an immediate effect.

Whereas here in St, John's because there is no mill, there are no forests 1 they cannot see the absolute desperate straits, and it is because they are not aware of the problem, the absolute desperate problem. Now, this government have saici, 'Give us mora responsibility. We want more responsibility.' The Premier threw up his hands the other day and said, 'Give us more! Give us more! • And the responsibility he wants in the offshore is, 'Give us the saJne rights as what we have over the trees • ' 4016

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1538 NM - 1 ~ STI~I~: _ Is there anybody living near the woods in Newfoundland who is happy with what this government has done with the trees? Is there anybody? Can you find one person out there of all the loggers and the logger unions and the companies and the company employees, is there anybody out there who says, "Yes, we would be quite happy to turn over the fisheries, to turn over the offshore to this government, to have them do exactly to those industries what they have done to the forest industry." Is there anybody out there who is really excited about the forest programme?

And you cannot blame the officials because the officials have been trying to get the attention of the politicians for years. This government has made a political decision in order to get into a royal commission. Now what is the royal commission going to recommend? The royal commission is either going to recommend to spray, or they will recommend not to spray. Now what is the government going to do about it? Where in 'its management programme of our forests, which is the ~esolution which we are debating, where in its entire management programme has there been any consistency, any believability?

Where has the government set out - now we are asking this royal commission to look into this and I believe at the insistence of my colleague from Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) that they expanded the terms of reference so that they now get off the very specific area of spruce budworm, to the whole forest area. Mr. Speaker, in this whole question of the use of our land, th~ use of our forests, the education of our children, the provision of opportunity, young people cannot see any plan that the government has. We are going to see a five year plan.

I do not know if the five year plan is going to start after the royal commission, and if that is the next step. Royal commissions in everything and then five year plans following the royal commissions. to the forestry, in an area in -we are so close In an area related in an area,for example, like my area, Bonavista North, we have possibly the best fishing, the best hunting, the best potential use of land, but it is under no control. We asked for a provincial park to be set up there. The report comes in from 4017

r· May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1538 MR. STIRLING: Tourism, and the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Power) says, "That is not my responsibility." The report comes in from Tourism that says, "We cannot get a nickel, we cannot get a nickel to spend on parks. We cannot get a nickel to spend on the expansion of the park. " Newfoundlanders all over the Province have bought trailers, and bought tents, the high cost of gas-they do not want to go off the Island, there is nowhere they can go. And last year there was some thought of saying, "You cannot use any of the gravel pits," going to force them off the road.

There is a lack, a complete lack of NM- 2 a coherent overall policy of the use of our forests, of the management of what we now have, of the preservation. The statistics in this last report, the report is available, absolutely frightening statistics. In just one year, in one year, Mr. Speaker, and I am not sure that all members of the House are aware of this, or that the government is aware of it, in one year, 1979, the dead and dying wood in 1979 increased by seventy-one per cent. Seventy-one per cent is not a minor, little increase. Four or five years down the road, Mr. Speaker MR.

HANCOCK: The forests are gone, boy. MR. STIRLING: - four or five years down the road it will be the next national disgrace, the next Newfie problem. And it is going to be a desperate situation. But here is a government, and we challenge them on the basis of what they said which is, "We want to be accountable." Take this government and show us what this go-vernment has done over the last eight years. They are proud of their record, proud o:f what they have done with the offshore regulations. Wel~ let us see what they are so proud of about something over which they did have control, the lands and the forests.

MR- HANCOCK: ll'he past eleven months (inaudible). MR. STIRLING: My colleague says in eleven months,name one thing that they have done. I do not want to be that specific. I want to talk about it in the context of their total management programme. Because 4D1a

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1538 NM - 3 MR. ~ING: you are not going to be 3ble tc save the forests, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: That is the whole problem. MR. STIRLING: - when the royal commission brings in its report a year, two years down the road. 4019

May 14, 1980, Tape 1539, Page 1 -- apb MR. STIRLING: We have an environmental bill. We are now talking about the offshore and right now, Mr. Speaker, is when we should have a royal commission looking into the problems of the offshore. We cannot even get a select committee to look into the probla~s of the offshore. There was a pipeline investigation on the West coast that took three years to complete.

All of the information that has been brought to our attention now indicates that in three years they are going to be pumping oil out there and at that stage,maybe, we will then appoint a royal commission, when it is too late. MR. NEARY: He wants his own flag. MR. STIRLING: It sounds too good. MR. NEARY: He is too busy trying to get his own flag. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: King 'Brian' and his Knights. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, we are going to hold this government accountable.

In keeping with what they brought out in the Throne Speech, we do intend to let the people of Newfoundland know what this government is doing or not doing or has not done in the past. But it is no good hiding away behind the skirts of a royal commission. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: SOME RON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PE.CKFORD: The han. the Premier. Hear, hear! ~·· 5p<:<aker, I would like to have a few words to say on this very important resolution that has_been placed on the Order Paper by the han. the member for Stephenville (Mr.

Stagg), a very appropriate geographic location as it relates to the forest industry and the expansion that is happening over there right now. 4020

May 14, 1980, Tape 1539, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: Let me first say, Mr. Speaker, I am - I should say, I suppose, I am shocked and surprised and startled and astounded,but I am not really, on second reflection,on the soeaker who iust oreceded me in this debate because it seems as if in the last year of so - ten or eleven months - that the hon. the member for Bonavista North IMr. Stirlina) has realized that there is some place and some activity outside the overpass which hithertofore he was not aware of until he went to Bonavista North,not being able to get elected in Mount Scio district - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: - and that he has suddenly found out that there are trees in the-Province that warrant some kind of economic future for the Province. And to.go further than that, Mr. Speaker, the comments that the hon. member for Bonavista North made, as they relate to the forest industry, shows he knows absolutely nothing about the forest industry. The hen. member is - he is not at zero, he is at about minus 10 when it comes to knowing anything about the forest industry. I would welcome the opportunity, Mr.

Speaker, of. taking the hon. the member for Bonavista North with me some week and coming out with me and visiting with a woods contractor and a number of sawmill operators, not only in Green Bay district but in the whole Central Newfoundland area,and showing him a little bit about what happens in the forest industry.

He never even scratched the surface when it came to talking about it, and when he tried to indicate that he had some knowledge related to the sawmill at Gamba, he once again showed that he had a tiny bit of information,about three or four pieces of info~ation out of ten, which left him pretty abysmal. And I am not criticizing him 1 4021 ----- ---·---

May 14, 1980, Tape 1539, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER PECXFORD: we all do not have knowledge in ever single field, but I would just say to the han. member that it is one thing to acknowledge that he does not have the knowledge and it is another thing to say that he then become opinionated and wants to give all the answers to the forest industry in Newfoundland. Let me remind the hon. the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) that it was in 1974 when the ma~agement plan was instituted for the first time in the history of this Province as it relates to the forest industry. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: There was legislation passed. But it is only since 1974. Mr. Speaker, I would love to be heard in silence. MR •. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! PREMIER PECXFORD: I listened to the han. member for Bonavista North in silence and I would ask him to do me the same courtesy. MR. SPEAKER: be heard in silence. PREMIER PECKFORD: Order, please!

The han. the Premier wishes to In 1974, that was after 1949, that was after 1950, that was after 1955, that was after 1960, 1965, 1970, that was after about twenty-three years of Liberal administration in this Province, after Liberal years, when they had all this time to put in place these great management plans, and it took a P.C.administration in 1974 to actually implr,~~~~ that kind of legislation, that kind of management programme. SOME' HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER P·ECKFORD: And now, Mr.

Speaker, for the first time in the history of the forest industry of this Province the companies have to submit management plans for their various management units. 4022

May 14, 1980 , Tape 1539, Page 4 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: Who set up the management units, Mr. Speaker? It was the government who set them up and said to the companies , 'In future you must submit to us - before you are able to harve st or have any future harvesting techniques placed Qn this management area you must submit to us a plan 4023

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1540 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: for the future of what you inten~, what the total allowable cut will be, how you intend to keep this particular forest block into production forever - infinity, That happened since 1974 and to this date now we have just about all the ~agement plans and units in place where management plans must now be submitted to the government,and these are inspected and scrutinized and then are put into place. So when we talk about the management, Mr. Speaker, MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible). it means nothing.

PREMIER PECKFORD: I want to be heard in silence because I have a few things that I want to say and I would like to say them without any interr1;1ption. So could I have the protection of the O!.air, please? MR. SPE.l\KER (Butt) : Order, please! The hon. the Premier wishes to be heard in silence. This is l:leccaing a continuing problem here in the House, the level of debate is being lowered and e'Vtli:y Jlllllllber hu that - J\N HON. MEMBER: Who is lowering it? MR. J. HODDER; It is the Speaker's fault if the level of debate is lowered SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: OJ:der, please!

I consider this a veey serious matter and I can assure you that I will not mind taking drastic measures if I have to on either side. The hon. the Premier. MR. L. S'fiRLING: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAD:R: A paint of order, the hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the give and take across the floor has been asked for by the kind of pro~cati ve remaz:Xs that the Premier made in his opening COIIIIIII!nt,and he encourages you by su9C;&sting some.thing that you just can not sit in !POur seat about •.

And when the thing qets too hot and heavy- it is alright for the colleagues when we are speaking-and, Mr. Speaker, I had numerous interruptions and did not complain; it may not have been from the Premier but from some of his colleagues. But when it_gets too hot and heavy it is they who say 4024

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1540 so - 2 MR. L. STIRLING : "Well, we want to be heard in silence." I have no objection either way, Mr. Speaker, but I would like to suggest to the Speaker that it is a two-way street. PREMIER PECKFOJIO: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE1o1CER (Butt) : To the point of oz:der, the bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECXFORD: The hen. member for Bonavista North (Mr. L. Stirling) knowledge of the rules equals only his lack of knowledge in the forest industry. AN BON. MEMBER: Then he goes aqain. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. PREMIER PECKFOJIO: The whole question is, Mr.

Speake~, then is no point of order. If the bon. the member for Borlavista North does not like the heat,will he please get out of the kitchen? SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPE1olCER: - Order, please: To the point of order, I would rule there is ~o point of order.~ut I would like to point out when an bon. melllber is speaking, if he does not ask for the protection of the Chair then the Chair allows a degree of tit-for--tat back and forth. However, when a member, such as the hon. the Pz:emier now,or the hen. melllber for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. l'. Rowe) yesterday, ask for the protection of the.

Chair , then I ~onsider it my responsibility to do that. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Prelllier. PREMIER PECIQ'OAJ: Thank ycu, Mr. Speaker. MR. S. NEARr: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the melllber for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the bon. the Premierbas been speaking now on a resolution dealing with a Royal Colllmission to be established to examine the effects of a chemical spray proqrlllllllllt, called mataci~ to control the spruce buc!Worm. The hon. the Premier, Mr.

Speaker, has not made one reference, not a reference so far, in his speech to the resolution. I would submit to Your Honour that the bon. the Premier is oompletely out of order, irrelevant ed that Y011r Honour shoal.d enforce 4025

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1540 so - 3 MR. S. NEARY: the rules of thie House and see to it that the speakers speak to the resolution which has to do with the spray programme and a Royal Colllllission and not with the overall forest policy of this govemment. PllEMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Premier. To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the hon. the PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out to the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. s.

Neary) if he cares to look at page 4 of to-day's House of Assembly, Newfoundland, Wednesday, May 14th, 1980, Orders of the Day, over into the Motion section, page 4 if the hon. , member for LaPoile will follow me, there is "Mr. Stagq (Stepheuville) - To Move:

WHEREAS the health of the forest and the people of this Province is of concern to the Government; AND

WHEREAS serious questions have been raised as to the danger of human health of chemical spray prograJnS to control the spruce budworm; AND

WHEREAS sufficient rea.arch and public debate has not taen place with regard to the resolution of this critical issue; BE IT THEm!FORE RESOLVED that this Honourable House supports the establishment by the Government of a Royal COIIIIIission to analyse and make .reco-ndations as to the course of action to follow in the protection of our forest ind\IStry - ." we are talking about, Mr. Speaker, the forest industry and one of the co.ponents in this resolution, only one, has to deal with the chemical spray.

I am talking about the forest industry, how it can be lllaJlaged and in the course of my remarks,if I am allowed to continue,will get into the forest spray proqralllllle as it relates to chemical spray but I will point out that in the

preamble to the resolution it talks about the forest industry in general as has all the members of the House of Assembly to now haw been dealinq with and not just specifically with one chemical or another. 4026

May 14,1980 Tape No. 1541 AH-1 MR.SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! To the point of order I would like to read 299, page 98 of Beauchesne which states that "Relevancy is not easy to define. In borderline cases the member should be given the benefit of the doubt." In this particular case I would say that there is possibly a borderline case but certainly the han. the Premier should be given the benefit of the doubt. The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Thank you, very much , Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we are talking about the forest industry and how it can be managed.

This is what the han. member for Bonavista North (Mr.Stirling) was talking about. I am pursuing the debate the way in which the member for Bonavista North (Mr.Stirling) pursued it and I wish to continue on that score. Now,what I was saying, Mr.

Speaker, is that when talking about chemical spraying, when talking about protecting the forests we have to put in place to have that protection a management plan and in concert with what the hon. the member for Bonavista North (Mr.Stirling) has said, it has only been since 1974 that a determined, organized, legislative onslaught - if you want to use that word, or regime has been put in place to try to manage the trees of this Province.Before that time it was not there. May I also say to the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr.

Stirling), while I am at it, that he is off on a very strange and weird tangent and I hope he is not speaking for all the members on the other side of the House when he talks about the forest industry and then talks about the offshore. Because it jast so happens, Mr. Speaker, that we do not have ownership of the trees in this Province and in Labrador the way we are asking for 1and therefore, ~o control, in the same way as we are looking for it now on the offshore. That is the problem. The hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr.

Stirling) should remember that it is because of Liberal polic~es which dictated concessions being given away to larg~ companies over ane hundred and one hundred and twenty years that the best trees of the Province are not under our control, - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 4027

May 14,1980 PREMIER PECKFORD: legislation to make it so. M.tt. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1541 AH-2 - and that we had to bring in special A point of order. To the point of order. The hen. I do not think this time, Mr. Speaker, that the hen. gentleman is borderline.

The hen. gentleman is completely irrelevant and I have to, in order to substantiate my point of order, read the last part of the resolution that we are debating which states, "Be it therefore resolved that this Honourable House supports the establishment by the government of a Royal Commission to analyze and make recommendations as to the course of action to follow in the protection of our forest industry and the health of our people so far as it relates to measures to be taken to control the spruce budworm." ~lr.

Speaker, the statements that the hen. gen~leman is making are completely irrelevant, have no bearing at all on this resolution and I would submit to the Chair that the Premier is abusing the private member~s resolution, abusing the privileges of the House and Your Honour should bring him to task. PREMIER PECKFORD: I would like to address myself to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am trying to compare the way management of the forests could be handled ·in the same way as we are now- MR. NEARY: Irrelevant. PREMIER PECKFORD: - articulating the way management of our offshore can be handled.

And this is what we are talking about in the substantive part of the resolution, protection of our forest industry and the health of our people so far as it relates to measures to he taken to control the spruce budworm. If we could manage our forest resources in the same way as we are looking for management over our offshore oil and gas, then we would be able to control the spruce hudworm and would not have given away a lot of the trees. And therefore it is extremely relevant and very much in line with the resolution. MR.SPEAKER: (Baird) Order, please! To the point of order. There is no point of order.

I would like to remind the hon.members 4028

MAY 14,1980 Tape No. 1541 AH-3 MR. SPEAKER: (Baird) of Beauchesne, number 299. The hon. the Premier. PR&'1IER PECKFORD: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much. So when we talk about the management of the forest resource, Mr. Speaker, when we talk about the management of the forest resource we have got to understand whether in fact we have constitutionally and legislatively the power so to do. And one of the problems that the member for Bona vista North (Mr.

Stirling) very aptly pointed out indirectly, in a way to try to service his own ends which turned out to service our ends on this side of the House, is the fact that we do not have the kind of legislative jurisdiction, the kind of legislative authority that we would like to have. The Bowaters company, Price (Nfldl, Anglo Newfoundland beforehand,were given large tracks of trees under a concession arrangement back a long time ago, in the 20s and 30s and before that point in time.

And what I am saying is that if you really wan~ to manage a resource, what this government is saying, then you must own the resouree, you must not concede it to a corporation or to some other body because in so doing, in giving away that kind of legislative competence you are therefore giving away a lot of your right and power to control.And that is what we are saying on the offshore. So that therefore the han. member is right on , Mr. Speaker, 4029

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1542 NM- 1 PREMI~ PECKF~ no question about it, completely on, as long as we have control over the resource. And that is what we are saying on th.e offshore. MR. STIRLING: PREMIER PECKFORD: Would the Premier permit a question? Not right now, Mr. Speaker, because I have been interrupted quite often and I would like to get on with my address. MR. SPEAKER (Butt}: Order, please! The Premier would like to be heard in silence. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the mail! reason that the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr.

Power) and the government have given over the last number of weeks and months,when we made the decision on the spruce budworm 1centred around three particular issues, three very important issues. One, the whole question of public input into public policy making, especially public policy making as it relates to a very substant~al resource and a very substantial number of people, and the employment opportunities thereby generated or not generated.

And we felt, as a government, that we needed a lot more public input into this decision and that led us to two other very important points because, number one, you were not mak~ng a decision for a year, and you were not making a decision on a small or very insignificant part of the population or a very insignificant resource, you were making a major policy decision which was going to effect people for a long period of time. Because everybody knows it is not good to chemically spray the forests for one year, you will extend the life of the tree for one year but you must continue on and on and on.

Secondly, the Newfoundland Medical Association said in their recommendations,which I note that nob'ody has really quoted yet, that in their opinion short-term chemical spraying did not seem to be injurious to human health, Short-term chemical spraying did not seem to be injurious to human health. Well 1when you are going into this kind of decision, Mr. Speaker, we are not talking about- we have to look at the worst 4030

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1542 NM - 2 PREMI~~~: case . - we are not talking about short- term spraying. It could very well last for five or ten years and what did the Medical Association mean by short-term? Was it one year? Was it two years? Was it even a year and a half? Was it six months? Was it five years? How long was it?

They were not willing to clearly and unmistakably come out with a definitive statemen~obviously,because the research relating to chemical spraying in the state of Maine, in the state of Oregon, in the state of Washington, in some of the mid-western states where there is some forest industry, and in other places, was not conclusive. And the New Brunswick experience is not a good one, it is first of all alone, by itself, and secondly.they have varied the chemicals and have not used consistently one chemical spray. So it was not.

So I refer han. members to the fact that even the Medical Association itself of this Province was not clear cut, and couched their words vaguely. AN HON. MEMB_E.R ..:._ MR. SPEAI<E!._(Simms) ..:..._ PREMIER PECKFORD: (Inaudible) been spraying (inaudible) • Order, please! ' And it was in that context, one that we needed more public input into what was to be quite potentially a long-term policy decision affecting a lot of people. Secondly, we had no conclusive and definitive recommendations from the Newfoundland Medical Association. And thirdly - ~0!!:_ MEMBER..:_ PREMIER PECKFOR£!..

Resign. -because of this long-term thing, we wanted to ensure that a decision was one that we were all familiar with and tha~had the advantage of major public debate through some kind of forum. That forum,of course .was decided to be the royal commission route, to have the royal commission hold hearings in a whole bunch of places around the Province, which they will do, and then bring in recOIIIIIlendations. Because we are not dealing - besides which, Mr. Speaker, as we all understand I am sure, that the answer, albeit we have a spurce budworm problem, we also have 4031

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1542 GH -3 PREMIER PECKFORD: another problem, and that is the larger problem of managing the forest resources of the Province, of any of the natural resources. We had to take, as we had to do in the mineral resources because a Liberal government and a Liberal policy gave away those minerals, we had to bring in special legislation - MR. STIRLING: Point of order (inaudible) . PREMIER PECKFORD: - and we had to bring in special legislation as it related to the forest resource. MR. SPEr~~= (Baird) Point of order, the hon. member for Bonavista North. ~IRLING: MR. NEARY: arguing with yourself. MR.

SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: Point of order, Mr. Chairman. (Inaudible) no reply, you are o~ly Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I have been advised that although you are Chairman, you are Speaker today. the Premier - MR. TULK: MR. STIRLING: is now hearing my point of order. MR. TULK MR. SPEAKER: state it, please? HR. STIRLING: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker, What point of order? I brought up a point of order, and he Good.

If you have a point of order, would you The Premier can state any opinions that he wishes, but when he again starts ranging and damning everybody on this side who may not have been here ten years ago or twenty years ago, he is completely out of order and he is misleading in giving this kind of impression to the public which is not true. PREMIER PECKFORD: To this point of order, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the Premier. 4032 ·I

:1ay 14, 1980 "rape No. 1543 DW - l PREMIE~ PECKFO~D: all I am doing is givinq my opinion of the way public colicy was handled in the past and the way it is handled now. And I will reiterate that. in my point of view the forest resources and the mineral resources of this Province were given away by the Liberal administrations of the day and now we are trying to· take them back. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKE~ (Baird): Order, please! --~ -- ·-· · To the point of order. There is no point of order 1 there is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The hon. the Premier. P~EMIER PECKFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And just to clue up then. In

summary what we are saying on this side of tne House, Mr. Speaker, is simply that we want to continue the process of consulting the citizens of this Province when it comes down to major issues of public policy dealing with the resoULces of t~is Province. And we will continue to do that - MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: ·order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: - and we are being consistent therefore, Mr. Speaker, in doing this because we are doing it on all 1 a whole wide range of issues and this one is not to be excluded.

Secondly, we are very concerned about the health of the citizens of this Province and,therefore,we need more .· conclusive evidence so that the Medical Association, which represents the medical fraternity in this Province, can give sa something more substantia~ in the way of recommendations rather than that kind of short-term thing. And we need additional information on that. Thirdly, because of the long-term repercussions that this can have upon our people and our societ~ we believe that this kind of process of a Royal Commission is very, very important. 4033

~·!ay 14 1990 Tape No. 1543 DW - 2 PREMIER PECKF~RD: And we will do this, Mr. Speaker, may I say,on many, many ·other issues that come up from time to time either through a Select Committee route or through a Royal Commission route as long as there is public hearings involved so that the public of the Province in all the regions which, are affected directly and t~ose affected indirectly can have that kind of input.

Because it is only in that way that you are going ~o get a very, very good 1 high quality kind of decision which san stand the light of day five or six years after its made and not just be ~ momentary kind of flirtation, alwa~ ~ emembering that even when we talk about the ch~mical spraying, that will not answer all the problems in the forest industry. It is much. much larger and deals with the whole question of managing the resource properly, reforestauion, salvaging and the whole issue, some ~f which,· which was brought up by the member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow).

We will continue to be responsible, con~ult with the citizenry before bringing in major policy decisions and that is why we are doing it here now, not the least of which is that the Medical Association also are a fraternity which we respect and which we want to have on our side before we make major public ~ pronouncements which are going to affect the lives and health of our people over the long-term. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER ' (Baird): MR. E. HISCOCK: Hea:z;, hear! The hon.member for Eagle River. Mr.

Speaker, I hope you will permit me also t6 have as much latitude as you have permit~ed the speake:z; before me. When I read this resol•!tion, basically the setting up of the Royal Commission, I could not help but look at numbe:z; four part of 'Whereas sufficient research and public debate has not taken place with regard to the :z:esolution of this critical matter'. 4034

:~ay 14, 1980 Tape No. 1543 DW - 3 :1R. E. HISCOCK: Here it is now seven years since the present P.C. quasi Liberal association has been in place that w~ have had seven years, if I may say, Mr. Speaker - MR. G. WARREN: Seven long years. :~R. E. HISCOCK: - of decision to have this Royal Commission and have debate with forest management and also with harvesting the foresb· we are now finding ourselves in a situation because it is a political hot potato and there is no question if we were the government on that side it would be a very hot potato for ourselves too, but it has to be dealt with.

And now the new Premier, Premier Peckford is presented with the prcblem and has to deal with it and because he is riding so high on public opinion what does ~e do? AN P.ON. MEMBER: Half· the time he thinks (inaudible) MR. E. HISCOCK: He turns around and basically ducks any issue that you have to have intestinal fortitude to go and stand up and take a stand that will put his mark in history. What does he do with it< He submits it like all governments in the past and I would assume in the future,to a Royal Commission. But I will ask the question why did this not have a public debate?

Why did we not have sufficient research with regard to this problem? Because we knew this problem before 1979 and in 1978. So why is it not done? I find it a little bit ludicrous at times ~hat each time the Premier gets up and gets on an issue that he loves to go back to the old days when the Liberals sold us down the drain with 120 year contracts - MR. S. NEARY: When he has to jump over seven years of Tory corruption to qet to that. 4035 ·--- -- - -·--

May 14. 19 80 MR. E. HISCOCK: years of contracts. Tap~ No. 1543 ON - 4 120 years of contraccs and sixty And chen he basically says, 'Well , I am q o ing to do this and I am going to do that ' . 1 muse say he likes the personal pronou n c ' !' quite a lot - ~!R. WARREN: Oh, yes. 11R. s. NEARY: !-lr. r. MR. liARREN: He want to be sile ·nt a l l t h e tir.re. MR . E. HISC OCK: But th e question I am going to basi cally po int out i n this debate, 4036

May 14, 1980 Tape 1544 EC - l MR. E. IUSCOCK: if_ it was not for Liberal policy of bringing in the pulp ---~~-paper mills, of bringing in linerboard and being sabotaged, as we may say, by the former Minister of Finance, Mr. John Crosbie, in the Canadian Government, who - which I say, I find it rather ludicrous again that the member who brought in this motion, Mr. Stagg 1 ended up supporting him in the leadership for the Liberal Party. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. E. HISCOCK: The Premier also supported Mr. Crosbie for the leadership of the Liberal Party. We talk about Liberal policy.

It is very, very good for the government to turn around and say all the things about the past Liberal administration, but what they forget is that they are also part and parcel of the Liberal philosophy. MR. G. WARREN: Right on! MR. E. HISCOCK: And what they also forget and what has been perpetrated on the people of Newfoundland and Labrador in this Province now is that the only ones who can have a Liberal philosophy are quasi-Conservatives or basically nee-Liberalism or whatever, by the way, and that is that the Premier was a foDDer Liberal. The Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L.

Barry) was President of Dalhousie Liberal Association. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. E. HISCOCK: I believe also 1 'Dr. McNicholas' who was going _ to run for the Liberals in St. John's Centre - SOME HON. MEMilERS : Oh, oh! MR. E. HISCOCK: - !iqured 1 Mr. Speaker 1 that public opinion of him would run - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Order, please! The Chair is having great Q.ifficulty to understand what the gentleman is saying. ---~-- .. --- MR. E. HISCOCK: - - also tle Minister of Public Works, ·Mr. --~ ---- Hdg Young' , a former one. Then- MR. F'.- STAGG: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Stephenville. 4037 -~ --

May 14, 1980 MR. E. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : for Stephenville. MR. E. HISCOCK: Tape 1544 Mr. Speaker, if I may say - Order, please! EC - 2 A point of order, the hon. the member A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I was spea.kinq the other day in this House on a point of order and the member for Stephenville (Mr. F. Staqq) would not qive me my point of order. So, Mr. Speaker, I rise on that, that it is a point of privileqe and that the member for Stephenville has no point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville has a point of order. We will deal with that first, please. MR. F.

STAGG: Thank you 1 Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: The point of privilege supercedes the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. F. STAGG : Mr. Speaker, a point of privilege has to have some substance. All .I did was say, 1 A point of order. 1 If my raising a' point of order automatically means there has to be a point of pri vileqe on the part of the other hon. member, it is reducing the rul!!s to absurdity.

Now, my point of order is tr.at the hon. member is referring to other hon. members by their names - referrinq to me by my name, referring to other hon. members by their names. ·'l'hat is not permissible under the rules of the House. It has also become evident this afternoon that they are referrinq to the hon. the Premier by his name. Hon. members are referred to by their districts in this House, Mr. Speaker, and that is a tradition that is fallinq by the wayside. I would suqqest that the Chair miqht take notice of that and I think it is a legitimate point of order. MR. SPEAKER: 'l'o the point of order.

All hon. members in the House, I think, are aware that we refer to hon. memben by their districts and not their names. The hon. the member for Eaqle River has the floor. 4038

May 14, 1980 Tape 1544 EC - 3 MR. E. HISCOCK: Again, Mr. Speaker, if I may say, being so rudely interrupted, the member for Stephenville says that one should address the hon. members in the House. I believe this basically came from the government side: 'Wanted by a local radio Open Line programme, ___ cro~sip, rabJ:lle-rousers, bigots ,ignoramus, maw mouth_, ::>afs, loafers_,_ lou.~­ mouth, slieveens, phonies, sluggards, toadys, knaves, bums, rotters, husseys, hags, rogues, liars, thugs, dolts, fools MR. F. STAGG: ,Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: (Baird) A point of order, the hon.the member for Stephenville. MR. E. HISCOCK: mopes, finks, nits, scofflaws .villaina and nuts MR. SPEAKER: order, please! MR. F. STAGG : Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has been speaking for some ten minutes or so now and has yet to address himself to the resolution. He is up now reading some sort of triviality into the record. He has nothing to say, Mr. Speaker, This resolution has some substance, it has a considerable amount of substance and some hon. members have been making some good debate on it. This hon. member is only concerned with his decillel level.

I think that he should be brought to order. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. There is no point of order. I would ask the hon. member again to remember paragraph 299 of Beauchesne. MR. E. HISCOCK: Tha applicant need have- no education qualifilld.·-··-· whatsoever, knowledge of subject under discussion. Ability ~-.J.- ---· -. SQa: RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please I MR. E. HISCOCK: to talk at length would be uaeful! If I may say, Mr.

Speaker that again was submitted by the --~--llli!labei'- f'"rcm Stepnenvil.le who tur~·~imd and -says that we should in this House address each other by the hon. member for so~and~so : So I find it a little bit ludicrous. But as I was saying in regard to this resolution with the Royal Conmission again it is shelving the respons-illility of this government to take a hard look at our Province.and a hard look at the things that need to be done. . - ·­---- 4039 - ----:-,.

May 14, 1980 MR. L. THOMS : administration of Justice. MR. E. HISCOCK: by the rrel!lber Tape 1544 EC - 4 (inaudible) Royal Commission into the The management today - basically it was said 4040 --- -----

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1545 EL - 1 MR. E. HISCOCX: from St. Barbe (T.Bennett) management today keeps people hungry and unemployed while the trees rot on the stem. We import 50 per cent of our building timber and this should come from our own Province. We do need management. Agreed, maybe in the past we never got into that as much but basically, new, we cannot turn around and blame the Liberal administration of the past and skip over seven years and say that they did not have a

part in building up the foundation of our present system. MR. S. NEARX : liear, hear. MR. E. HISCOCK t We ha'V'e now basically on our lots around the Province 15 million cords of dead or dying timber in this Province, 15 million and we only need a million to keep - MR. L. THOMS: Appoint a royal commission on the administration of Justice. That is what we need. MR. E. HISCOCX: - our plants going, our pulp and paper -- - mills goinq. 15-lidllion- cords. --- MR. L. THOMS :· • Do not be afraid to (inaudiJ:)le) MR. E.

HISCOCK: Instead of having the Royal Commission 1 why is the government not qoing out and cutting this dead wood and this dying wood, instead we are goinq and cuttinq green wood. MR. L. THOMS t 'Ihere is no trouble for this government to cut dead wood. MR. E. HISCOCK: So , I basically uk t:his question 1 that we can talk about Royal Ccmlllissions but in the meantime we are loBing a valuable resource. But I have to go back and because the Premier had such wide latitude in talking about policies of the past administration and with manag-ent, I would like to talk about the policies of the present administration.

We need the Royal Colllllission so that we can find out and have proper manaqement. I would say that if we had to depend on this 4041

~y 14, 1980 Tape No. 1545 EL - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: government for proper management-we do not have it in the Department of Health, of the situations we have seen down in St. Mary's the Capes. Also,our nurses throughout the Province, we do not have proper man.aqement in that with our hospital proqram. AN HON. MEMBER: Or in Education. MR. E. HISCOCK: In tr&nspartation, we definitely do not have it in transportation. W~ will •- more people goinq to jail ehis . SUIIIIIIer and picket lines than we have ever seen before • MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please. The hon. member might wish to be relevant. MR. E.

HISCOCK: I was only,again,saying to the former Speaker-MR. S. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. E. HISCOCK: - the Deputy Speaker that I had hoped to get the range that the Premier had by saying that he was pointing out the policies of the fact sa. I want to point out this, that when it comes to management of the forest we . have to have proper management in govern- ment and I am pointing out ta the Premier that - SCME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. E.

HISCOCK: - it is very wise for him, very wise for the Premier to be travelling and making speeches but I think he should also look into his department, what is going on with the management of our other resources and I will go inta that by the way of our fisheries. The manag-nt of our fisheries, the Loan Board, the management or our Department of Finance - MR. G. O'l"l'ENBEIMER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAltER: A point of order, the hon. 11he Minister of Justice. ---· -- .. - MR. G. OTTENBEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, I do feel that your having -e affinity with the Chair as an institution that your ruling does 4042

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1545 EL - 3 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: have to be observed and that is the point of relevance. The hon, member said that the former Speaker had spoken about, you know, government policy previously but it has to be related to government policy in the area of forestry., I mean, not in areas that really have nothing to do with it. And I do not think the hon. member wished - ··-- ---- - - MR. L. THOMS: (inaudible) MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: If the hon. member from Grand Bank (L 'lhoms) would allow - I do not think the hon. member for Eagle River (E.

Hiscock) wished to go contrary to the ruling of the Chair and I am sure he does not wish to. What I wish to point out is not that the latitude is such - not that the relevance is such a stricture on an hon. member but certainly it has to be related to forest management not management, let us say, of fisheries or transportation or that because that is clearly off the subject of the resolution. MR. J. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, to .that point of order. To the point of order, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: Yes, to that point of order, Mr.

Speaker, I sat here and listened to the - MR. mOMS: (inaudible) MR. SPEAKER (Butt) Order, please I MR. J. HODDER: I sat here and listened to the Premier's remarks in the House. I heard the Premier get - if we talk about relevance I think it is a two-sided street. I heard the Premier talk about the member for Bonavista North's (L. Stirl:ing) running in a particular election, he spent some time in doing that sort of thing. Since I sat in this House, Mr.

Speaker, I have always found that in debate you are allowed to stray slightly, But I find that the Chair has been ruling one -y and certainly the decision that I heard made here by the previous Speaker in relation to the Premier when he ruled on relevance is quite different than. the one I see being made right here now and I just wonder what is happening. 4043

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1545 EL - 4 Mit •. S~: .(Butt) W~ll, to the po:int of order. F~st of all, I think :r have ;heard enouqll to lll,itk.a a ruling: at thi.s particular time. First of all, :r do not believe it is quite pr~ to debate the ruli.nq of the Chair. :t beUe:ve the hon. member, beinq a veteran of the Ho'IISe certainly lclldws wt:lat proced~a"es one · sho.uld follow. :rn this part.i.cular: matter :r do not know what the ruli.nq was: by the previous person occupying: the Chair but 4044

May 14, 1980, Tape 1546, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : I am in the Chair at this particular time. I have already asked the hon. member to be relevant to the resolution which was quite clearly stated, 'That this hon. House supports the establishment by the government of a royal commission to analyze and make recommendations as to the course of action to follow in the protection of our forest industry and the health of our people so far as it relates to measures to be taken to control the spruce budworm'. I would submit to the han. the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock) that discussions about transportation - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. SPEAKER: I am not quite finished, if the han. member would like to take his seat. Conversation or comments related to the Department of Transportation, the Department of Fisheries and things of that nature would hardly be considered to be relevant. I would ask the hon. member to be relevant. Eagle River. MR. STIRLING: order. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, a point of A point of order. The hen. the member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: · Mr.

Speaker, there is no question, absolutely no question on this side that we think that Your Honour is very fair. I would only ask Your Honour if he would refer to the tapes- and .you can understand why you may think that some of us have strayed in debating with the Speaker. There was no intention for anyone to debate with the Speaker but if you refer to the tapes you will see the ~atitude granted. The Premier covered the whole range of past services of 4045

May 14, 1980, Tape 1546, Page 2 -- apb MR. STIRLING: the government, of past approaches and the whole new approach covering the whole range of what this government was doing. So, therefore, the next speaker, I am sure - MR. SPEAKER(Simms): What is the hon. member's point of order? MR. STIRLING: Simply to ask the Speaker if he would refer to the tapes so that we can get some consistency and we can understand what is required when we debate a particular resolution, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: With respect to the point of order SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

With respect to the point of order I would rule there is no point of order and ask the hon. member for Eagle River to continue his speech of which he has about three minutes remaining. MR. IITSCOCK: I thank the Speaker and I also will try to keep my points relevant. I would hope that the Premier will also take note of the ruling of the Chair. With regard .to management I think it is very, very important. When I was over travelling in Europe, in Germany going through the Black Forest, one of the things I was amazed at all through Europe was on the hillsides you would see various levels of trees.

Some were twenty years old, some were eighteen, same were seventeen, and t~reLve and all the way. And each year they would go up like a lawnrnower and cut so many acres · and then the next year they would plant that and go on •. We do not have any forest management in this Province. You talk about getting things back from our companies and that. It is great 4046

May 14, 1980, Tape 1546, Page 3 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: Publicity but again it is a camouflage by basically saying, "No, we are the liberators". Liberators of what, 15 million cords dying or almost dead? So I would say, when it comes to management the administration itself cannot turn around and manage one resource when they cannot turn around and manage the other one.

So I think it is only logical, and I may be accused of wandering, but I would go as far as to say that if we have this royal commission I hope the royal commission will also look into the possibility of how we can turn around and administer our programmes because basically it is not coming forth in this programme. Now, I will give an example of Port Hope Simpson which was set up in the 1930s as a logging area. They have had a fire down there in the past fifteen years that wiped everything out and through natural reforestation nothing grew.

Is there any re-planting down in that area to give the people some livelihood again? No. Do we have any reforestation situation down in Labrador? No, just a little bit in Goose Bay. If we have a forest fire down in Labrador is there enough equipment? No. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HISCOCK: Let her burn. Let her go. Let her burn. Let her burn is basically what happened and may be true for it.

So I submit that when it comes to this,as the royal commission, I would say this is only a camouflage, this is only a hot potato that is being passed by on the shelves and it will go like all royal commissions i±n ·the past and that b~sically will be done to get rid of the political steam that wants to come up. And I regret that the new Premier,who wants to go into the 1980s with . the young people of this Province, has not got the intestinal fortitude to turn around and make a decision on this. 4047

Mav 14. 1980. Tape 1546, Page 4 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: Thank you . MR . SPEAKER (Simros): The hon.the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, for once , in my short term sitting in this House ,! have to agree with the member fo r Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) that this issue of spraying our forest is a very serious and complicated,complex problem . ...... 4048

May 14, 1980 Tape No. 1547 so - 1 MR. H. ANDREWS : .!'.nd to that point it is a very difficult decision for anyone to make because there are no cut and dry ans-rs. However, I find myself in wry much of a dile111111a, when yoa zead zeports like this by ,.ry reputable p