VOL. 3 NO. 112 PRELIMINARY . UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT • HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 1978

7.ovember 21, 1,17 Tape 5259 DW - 1 The House net at 2:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the ^•hair. MR. SPEAKER: T. SEEAKER: OIT HON. 1rEM3ERS: . GOUDIE: Order, please! STATEMENTS BY IINISTERS The hon. Minister of Rural Development. Mear, hear! Kr. Speaker, I am very pleased to, inform the hon. House that the Labrador Resources Advisory Council is now reporting to me as Minister of Rural nevelopment. As you know,the.role of my department is becoming increasingly important in developing the human and economic resources in Labrador.

The Labrador Resources Advisory Council represents all areas of Labrador and its aims and objectives closely parallel' the aspirations of my department.

Their interests,for the information of hon. memberi,include communications with government reflecting the feelings of the people in the Labrador communities all resource issues such as fishery, forestry, oil and gas, uranium developments and national parks; making communities aware of the use of resources and the effects that resource development may have on the people and the environment; developing policies on how the traditional resources,such as fishing, trapping and hunting may be improved; encouraging the development of • new ideas in resource use which take into consideration the traditions and aspirations of Labradorians;and developing better communications between the various areas of Labrador.

Now although the council has only been in operation for a little over two years,they have been very active. They are involved*,for instance,in the following; consulting with all the Labrador communities and interest groups to ascertain public reaction respecting the Province's Labrador proposal to 7REE; conducting environmental studies such as EAHES, the Eastern Arctic Marine Environmental Study,which is a federally funded study tc determine the impact of I development on the marine resources of Labrador; dealing with resource issues by focusing on the needs of fisheries; possible interrelationship 12696

November 21, 1978 Tape 5259 - 2 COUDIE: with offshore oil and gas and uranium mining; advising government on development programmes such as the shrimp. fishery and the operation of northern fish . plants.. Cthar interests include national parks, wildlife and the traditional lifestyle of the people. I am looking forward to `continued co-operation•between the .council and my department. I will be meet:Ing with the council representatives on the week 12697

November 21, 1978 Tape 5260 PK - 1 Mr. Goudie: of November 27 in St. John's and we will be exploring with them all possible areas of development. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I should first of all, because this is my first opportunity, I should first of all congratulate the new minister on his appointment to the post of. Rural Development. I might also say that we on this side of the House have thought for a long time that the hon. gentleman should have been made a minister and perhaps of this department a long time ago,in 1975 rather than perhaps in 1978.

So I congratulate the minister on his appointment. And I simply want to make a few comments in response to the Ministerial Statement. And I am sure I speak for this side of the House when I say that we whole-heartedly endorse the role that the Labrador Rdsources Advisory Council has. Communications in Labrador has been a problem; - communication with government in particular has been a problem for a long, long time. And we are happy to see that it has now come of age,and especially with the Labrador Resources Advisory Council and the work that they are doing there. . So once again, Mr.

Speaker, I wish the new minister all the best and anything that can be done to improve the image of Labridor with government involvement we are all for it. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition received, I guess, yesterday-:yes,late yesterday-from several communities in my district situated on New.World Island. 12 698

November 21,.1978 Tape 5261 EC - 1 • • • MR. U. N. ROWE: The communities are Cobbs Arm; Pikes Arm, Too Good Arm, and Green Cove. And the prayer of the petition, Sir, is as follows: "This is to certify that we, the citizens of the foregoing communities,do hereby protest the condition of gravel roads leading into these communities as well as these roads within the communities. The roads are difficult to ride over at the best of times due to protruding bedrock, turns, narrowness of the roads and excessive dust. Dust is almost a continuous problem.

Citizens who live near these roads have to forego a healthy standard of living by closing all doors and windows in order to escape the dust. Outdoor Activities such as the drying of clothes, painting and drying of fish are all limited by the dust problem. Also on two or three occasions and because of the turns and narrowness of the roads, school buses have left the main roads and have ended up in the ditch." If Your Honour were familiar with the roads, as Your Honour probably is, he could see that happening quite'easily in his mind's eye.

"Fortunately, none of the students were injured, but further deterioration of the roads may result in more serious accidents. Furthermore, there is a lack of good turnarounds and guardrails. Generally there are no guardrails, especially in the more crucial areas, and the turnarounds leave much to be desired. Therefore, as citizens of the above mentioned communities, we petition the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to adequately upgrade and pave these roads. Only in this manner can we expect to enjoy a reasonable standard of health and safety for ourselves and our children." And they say, "Thank you," Mr.

Speaker. and this petition is signed by the following voters of the area, and then 240 names of residents and citizens of the communities mentioned are signed on the petition. 12699 •

November 21, 1978 Tape 5261 EC - 2 MR. WHITE: Is Gerry Canning's name on it? MR. W. N. ROWE: I have not had an opportunity to look through to see if Mr. Canning's name is on it, I. hope it is. I look over the copywhen I - Too Good Arm does not. appear to have Mr. Canning's name on it, but it may be somewhere else. It does not appear to be there. AN HON. MEMBER: No doubt he supports it. MR. W. N. ROWE: I am sure he supports it, Sir, since he made this a major part of his campaign 12790

November 21,1978 Tape No. 5262 AH-1 yr- U.ROWE: around this time last year.

Sir, these communities and the roads to the communities are important,of course,for the people who live in . the communities,but also,of course,it is important that the road be upgraded and paved as requested for people who live outside the • communities as well because as my hon. friend,the member for Lewisporte (Yr-J*4e) district well knows the ferry to Change Islands leaves from Cobbs Arm and there is a considerable amount of traffic over that main road and down into Cobbs Arm and to the ferry terminal during the Summer • months, not only residents of Change Islands but tourists as well use that road. 'Somebody has already mentionedond I have adverted to it as well,that Too Good Arm is the residence, the home community of a gentleman, a superb gentleman,who happened to have been my opponent in the by-election in Twillingate district, Yr.

Canning. During the election the government, Sir, I believe as represented by the Premier,and if not the- Premier then certainly a spokesman for the government made a commitment to upgrade these roads and to pave the roads. I am sure that the commitment was not a political one. I cannot see bringing people's health standards and the condition of the road that they have to travel over on a day to day basis bringing that into a partisan politics. I can only assume that it was a well intentioned gesture on the'part of the government, a commitment which the government intends to live up to.

The fact that the people there in the district as a whole did not see fit to return the government member is purely academic and irrelevant,/ would think. Surely we are not-into political blackmail or hribery,whatever way you want to look at the situation, and surely the commitment made to the residents of those communities will be kept by the government in the upcoming construction season and hopefully, Sir, we will see these roads upgraded and paved during the coming Summer. • • 12701 •

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5263 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. W. ROWE: I move, Sir, that the petition be received by the hon. House and referred to the department to which it relates. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition coming from the residents of Cobb's Arm, Pikes Arm, and Too_Good Arm,and I would not be surprised if there are a few names affixed there from the community of Change Islands, since the ferry from.

Change Islands lands at, Cobbs Arm twice a day and a large number of people use the Cobbs Arm road to get back • and forth to Change Islands. I have been over the road a'good many • times and I suppose, Mr. Speaker, other than a few roads in St. John's I would say that this particular road should be known' to the government, to ministers of the government mare than any other road in Newfoundland since just about all the ministers lived in Twillingate district for three weeks last year about this time. So I would say that all the ministers should be aware of this road.

I am sure the Premier. isIsince he did spend some time on the ferry in Cobbs Arm around this time last year talking to some people on the ferry there one evening or maybe two evenings. The road is in desperate need of repair and I hope something is done about It. I would just like to add one point that was touched on briefly in the petition that many members may not be aware of. In this area last Summer•we saw a great deal of squid drying. A.lot of people got into that business.

It was a very lucrative business with dried squid selling for about $1.00 a pound and if you drove down over those roads last year you would see long clothes lines of squid hanging out to dry and I think it is a very significant development in the fishing industry and one that should be encouraged because. • • 12702

Ndvember 21, 1978 Tape No. 5263 Nm - 2 MR. WHITE.: there was a great market for dried squid last year and a lot of people had difficulty with dust getting on the dried squid and if we are talking about quality product then certainly that is another reason we can add to the long list of paving. I just want to add one point, with respect to Cobbs Arm being the terminal of facilities for Change Islands that is about to change.

As a matter of fact, I received a letter this morning from the minister in Ottawa, the Minister of Public Works saying that the $1 million had been approved for the new ferry terminals and they say that as soon as the provincial government finishes the access roads they will get on with the construction. MR. RIDEOUT: It would have been approved last year if we had to eo to the Minister of Transportation. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of approximately fifty residents of Critch's Road, which is3for those not familiar with it, 12703

November 21, 1978 Tape 5264 PK - 1 Mr. Nolan: off Thorburn Road, not a big road as such, but a road that has been sadly neglected for a long, long while. The residents are petitioning for proper drainage, ditching, and, in fact, to have something substantial done with the road Now this petition,or the request,at least, contained is not a new one, Mr. Speaker.

Residents have through any number of means over any •number of years attempted to draw to the attention of those responsible their plight, and it is for this reason that we have this petition, and it is not the only one that was 'presented incidentially, of the people on Critch's Road. So in an attempt to bring to the attention of the members of the House of Assembly,the department concerned, and all citizens for that matter a very, very sad condition.

Here you have a number of families that are off a small road off a main paved road, and to the best of my knowledge there is not even a sign there at the moment, although I have talked to some people with the department attempting to get a sign put up so at least if you are delivering groceries or whatever at least you will know where it is.

But here is a situation where you have people now who in some incidents that I know of from personal conversations and so on have really lost faith in the institutions that we are suppose to support,because•they feel that in spite of their calls to officials on all levels that for some reason they do not have either the political clout, the economic clout, or whatever is required to draw to the attention of those concerned the very sad situation that they are in. Here you have from residents, Mr.

Speaker, who would, for example, be quite happy to co-operate with the Department of Transportation— I cannot speak for all of the residents, but some that I know of-to provide some of their land for widening of the road where it is necessary and to assist in any way that is humanly possible. But they are there,as I said,as a small group and they do feel that they have been left out of the mainstream of life. 12704

• • November 21, 1978 Tape 5264 PK - 2 Mr. Nolan: We heard bandied about in news conferences and so on about great grants, and millions of dollars to be spent on this highway and that highway. It is difficult for them to believe that since they are not asking for the world, why it is that they have been neglected? Why it is that they cannot get a little more done? They are not asking for any luxurious item. And, if fact, it is not too often you get requests from the residents there.

What they are asking for now is,pleaselto honour the prayer of the petition. where they can help .in some instances they will provide some of their .property for the widening of the road, where the department is concerned,if they would move in and do the ditching .that is required and upgrading 12705 •

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5265 NM - 1 MR. NOLAN: of the road and hopefully,in the not too distant future,to pave it. Because here you have a situation where it in some instances looks like a cow path, and it is a shame that this be permitted to continue. So I do humbly ask, through this petition on behalf of the people, Mr. Speaker, that this merely not be simply another request.

They have gone through every route that they know how,and now once again we try through petitioning in the House of Assembly to see if something cannot be done now, this year at least, in a preparatory way, I realize all the work could not be done, but please try to assist in this particular matter so that these people can feel that there are people who care about them, that they are not forgotten, that they are as important as any other road in this Province, as any other citizen in this Province. Right now I feel, and I say this not in an exaggerative sense, that they feel downtrodden. They feel neglected.

TheY feel that though they have talked to everybody that they know of in the phone book when they can get him, who may be in authority, that they have not been able to get the preliminary work in the first instance, just to bring it up to half decent, sensible standards. So, Mr. Speaker, I would like to present this petition to the House of Assembly and ask that you, through your servants, have the petition referred to the department to which it relates and I hope that the people will get the necessary results that are so sadly needed, just on the border of the city here. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile.

MR. NEARY: I cannot see, Sir, how one can resist supporting the petition so ably and eloquently and dramatically presented by my colleague, the member foi Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan). The hon. gentleman, Sir, should be congratulated 12706

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5265 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: in doing such a fine job of presenting a greviance on behalf of his constituents who live on Critch's Road. And I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that every member on both sides of the House, will rise in his place this afternoon and support that petition. The hon. gentleman made it sound as if it was as important as the landing of Normandy, and that is how concerned my hon. friend is about his constituents who live along this little piece of road which is a dead end I believe. MR. NOLAN: That is right. MR. NEARY: It is a dead end. People in the Wintertime, Mr.

Speaker, cannot get their oil in. The kids have to claw and scrape their way out through piles and piles and banks of snow to get out to the main road. And the people are prepared to co-operate - that is the significant thing - the people are prepared to co-operate by moving back their fences and giving up parts of their property. Does the hon. gentleman think it is funny? MR. W. ROWE: No. No. No. The badge - The hon. gentleman does not have He does not drink coffee. Look, the hon. gentleman has had such a PREMIER MOORES: MR. NEARY: one? MR. SIMMONS: MR.

NEARY: bad couple of days I will give him mine for a gift and wherever you go with that badge the restaurants and hotels that are participating in the programmes, the Premier will get a free cup of coffee and that will be a very refreshing change for the gentleman, would it not? MR. SIMMONS: "Not interested," says the Premier. MR. NEARY: And I hope it is black, black coffee. Mr. Speaker, I support that petition, Sir, so ably presented by my hon. colleague and I also support, 12707 •

• • • November 21;.1978. Tape No. 5265 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: although I realize it is too late, the petition presented by my hon. friend, the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Rowe) on behalf of the constituents in Too Good Arm. I thought my friend was describing the road in my own district of LaPoile, lust on the outskirts of Channel - Port aux Basques, the road to Grand Bay West. MR. W. ROWE: That is right, I know it. MR. NEAR?: Because the conditions are precisely the same. MR. W. ROWE: Exactly the same. MR. NEAR?: And in the Wintertime, 12708 •

• November 21, 1973 Tape 5266 1.r - 1 •lR- S. NEARY: :tr. Speaker, without guard rails, • with the potholes', that the schocl.bus drivers that go down over the. road to Grand Bay Vest tell me that it is P safety hazard, it is scandalous and there were .times they were threatened to take the. buses off. altogether. And,the• people who have to get to work from Grand Bay West to get to get CN'and to gat down to the, fish plant and so forth are continuously complaining. And this was another promise, Sir, all these things we are talking about were promised that were made in the last election.

This was a promise that was made - nR. SrrANER: Order, please: As the hon. gentleman forewarned the House. that he would be getting into an area that he was precluded from so doing and that is a former petition Wkich has now been tabled and which is no longer _before the House for considerationi, I would ask the hon. gentleman to contain his remarks. E. S. NEAPY: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker .I got so carried away, Sir, with the Premier and I becoming kissing cousins and my presenting him with a little gift that I got carried away; Sir, and I apoligize to the Chair.But I do want to support both petitions that have been so ably. presented by my colleagues. SPIAHER: The hon. member for Burge° - Bay de Espoir. .Pi. Hr. Speaker, I too would like to rise in support of the petition presented by my colleague from Conception Bay South (Mr. nolan).

Roth he and my colleague for Laroile (?'r. weary) • have said most of what needs to be said on the petition but perhaps it is a good time to once ageln, Mr. Speaker, it being so near to another Throne Speech time it might be the appropriate time, Hr. Speaker, to raise the r■uestion about the government's five year road programme and hope that this Gritch's Road could be included in it. 12709

November 21, 117R Tape 5266 DP - 2 R. The road programme was committed on a number of occasions over the past three or four years in various Throne Speeches and :we have yet to see the five year road programme and I would hope that perhaps in the Throne speech or soon after the new ninister of TranSportation and Communications might make the list available-to us.

One ds led. to believe that the list is long since in existence: and now •if ,re could only hayea look at it I have no doubt that my colleague's concern will be taken care. of,the fifty. or so petitioners on Crthtch's Road will obviously: • be included P. TTITE: Doody did not see the list. n7. SI=S: - in that list. I would certainly hope so. I would hope that this a clear case where the absolute. need of the hour will override e.ny partisan considerations and the fact that my colleague is a representative of the great Liberal Party will in no way adversely 12710

November 21,1978 Tape Mo. 5267 AH-1 effect the chances of his constituents having their needs met. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 0 0 0 rp. SPEAKER:: The lion. member for Burgeo Bay d'Espoir. YR. SIMMONS: I have a petition which I would like to present, Mr.. Speaker. I have a petition signed by seventy-seven petitioners in the community of McCallum in:my district.

The prayer of the petition is one that the House has heard about before because I believe that this is either the third or fourth petition that I will have presented from the people of this community on this subject.in the past five years since I have been in the House of Assembly. Indeed; Mr. Speaker, I am sure friends in the House will be charmed particularly my good friend from Harbour Main-Bell Island (Mr. Doody)Ito learn that on Sunday coming I am going to be celebrating an important anniversary, the fifth anniversary of my election into this Chamber, the anniversary of that farous by-election..

I invite all members present to the party. There is going to be one or two on Sunday in Bay d'Espoir to celebrate the event. MR. DOODY: A telephone both will do. MR. SIMMONS: It is the minister who has rented a telephone booth for his meeting like the one he had in Burgeo during the election in 1975. EP. DOODY: The hon. member should not complain about that meeting. • FP. SIMMONS: I am not complaining about that meeting at all. I think Mr. Howard should have complained about the meeting,but I do not complain. Mr. Speaker, I want to present a petition from seventy-seven petitioners in the community of McCallum.

McCallum has a population of just over 200 men, women and children 12711

'November 21,197P . Tape No. 5267 AH-2 MR. SIMMONS: so you will appreciate that the seventy- seven petitioners represent most of the adult population in that community. The prayer of the petition relates to the need for:a water supply. Now I have not said a centralized water system.7e are talking about a supply of safe drinking water. The need identified . in the petition is a great one,indeed,it is an urgent one, Mr. Speaker. There is at the moment no safe water supply in the community of McCallum. In Summer • • 12712 •

November 21, 1978 Tape 5268. EC 7 1 MR. SIMMONS: the 200 or -so residents of McCallum depend on surface pools of water for their drinking water. In Winter they get their drinking water • supply by getting aboard their small boats and going by powered boat out of the harbour for a couple of miles to a spring and bringing the drinking water back in barrels and then using hoops and buckets to get to get it from the waterfront up to the houses. That is how they get their drinking water in Winter.

This problem is not a new one to the House, it is not a new one"to the government4 indeed, the government made a commitment on this water supply in the Fall of. 1973 when the minister of the day was Mr. Val Earle. Since then the matter has been raised with the former minister, the present Minister .of Mines and Energy 9and another former minister, the present Minister of Transportation and Communications, and on various occasions government have looked at it, have had engineering studies done. I say to the new minister, who by the way, we would like to congratulate.

When I was . doing so the' other day he was not in the House and I was able to pass on my best wishes to his seat mate,'and I would like to do the same for the new Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing and wish hith well in his portfolio. I say to him, in case he is not familiar with this particular problem, that the departmental files are literally full of matters pertaining to this particular problem. The Premier and the then minister made a firm commitment on it in the Fall of 1973, indeed, at that time the Premier indicated it would be taken care of before Christmas of .that year, 1973.

It has not been -taken care of, Mr. Speaker. Engineering studies have been done,I think at least two or three, and one in particular indicates that a water supply - and again,' stress, not a centralized 12713

• November 21 1978 • Tape 5268 EC - 2 MR. SIMMONS! water systeM but a water supply, a central well, for example_ could be provided at a cost of $25,000 to $30,000. It would require some drilling. 12714 •

November 21, 1978 Tape 5269 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: Frank Nolan Associates did the report to which I refer, and they put a cost on it and, of course, that cost is now two years old, so I am sure inflation has done something to the figure. But for a relatively small amount of money we could be providing a water supply to the people of McCallum. Mr. Speaker, this is an issue that ought not to become a partisan matter. It is.not a question of whether the request of the people can generate some votes for the government in power or for another party. That is not the issue.

Here is a case of some basic human need which needs to be met and met fairly soon;indeed it should have been met. The fact is it has not been met. And I on behalf of the seventy-seven petitioners, and all of the people of McCallum indeed, Mr. Speaker, would make an urgent plea to the new minister and to the government as a whole to see that this need is met as soon as possible. There is still time indeed in this particular calendar year. We are talking basically about a drill rig going in there and doing the work that has to be done; it might take a few days.

I am not an engineer, fortunately the present minister of the department is an engineer and perhaps he can give us some comment on that particular aspect of this. But that aside, Mr. Speaker, it is not an insurmountable problem. It is one that could be fairly easily attended to, All it requires is a decision in government to allocate the money for the purpose, and I understand that has not yet been done. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I take great pleasure in rising to support this petition.

I too have visited McCallum on occasion, most notably during the 1973 by-election when my hon. friend was elected to the former district of Hermitage. And I remember well then the residents of the community telling me, telling us that a commitment had been made for a water system for the community of McCallum. What is that, five years ago now? My hon. friend is about to celebrate his anniversary. 12715

Novermber 21,,1978, Tape 5269 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, we remember it well. MR. W. N. ROWE: We remember the by-election well. As a matter of fact,that is the same by-election where in the community of Seal Cove, a town•whith holds the' name Hickman so high that people in fact call theii. children , 12716

November 21. 1978 Tape 5270 EC - 1 MR. W. N. ROWE: the first name, Hickman So -and- So, - Hickman Lovelace, for example. And the hon. the Minister of Justice went down to campaign bearing that august name - AN HON. MEMBER: It is a airistian name. MR. W. N. ROVE: That is right - bearing that name held in such high esteem on the South Coast, went down and campaigned and succeded in reducing the vote to nine, I know, from what? .MR. Fifty-nine. MR. W. N. ROWE: Fifty-nine to nine as a result of his visit, nine for the P.C. Party from fifty-nine in the election a year or so before.

So I would not say that he is a worthy carrier of that august and esteemed name of Hickman. MR. HICKMAN: (Inaudible).. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: Or town council. MR. NEARY: That was my speech in the Hall that did that. MR. W. N. ROWE: That is right. Sir,,a little bit of levity introduced into the support of the petition, but it is a serious matter for the 200 people of Mc Callum the fact that they do not in this day and age have a safe source of water for their families.

It is an indictment Sir, of the government and perhaps this House, th'at a community in this day and age could be in such straits when it comes to something so basic as a safe and sound water system. I support wholeheartedly, Sir, the prayer of the petition, and I do hope that this Fall a start can be made and perhaps a finish arrived at in 12717 •

November 21, 1978 Tape 5270 EC - 2 • • • MR. U. N. ROWE: getting a safe central water system for the seventy-seven petitioners and the two hundred residents of the small community of MacCallum on the Southwest Coast. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise to support the petition coming from the seventy-seven petitioners in the community of Mc Callum. And coming from the district that I come from and the area that I come from, I know so well how badly water is needed in some of the rural communities in Newfoundland. This week, Mr.

Speaker, when the government was looking for support on its loan bill of $150 million, I thought then that if they came in with another loan bill for $50 million to spend on water services in this Province, I would be the first one to jump up and support any piece of legislation, particularly since water is such a serious problem in some Of the rural communities. I know some of the members opposite who do not represent rural seats just do not know how serious the problem is, but it is a serious one and something that we have to come to • grips with.

And I would like for the new minister to try to get the Department of Municipal Affairs in hand, to try to straighten out the water services division in particular that looks after so many of those small communities. I have never seen so much confusion in my life in a division of government as there is in the water services division, particularly over the past year.. The rules have been changed in mid-stream three or four times, and I hope that the new minister now, Mr.

Speaker, will set about to make the water services division of Municipal Affairs a workable one since I think it could be a very worthwhile vehicle 12718

• November 21. 1978 Tape 5270 EC - 3 • • MR. WHITE: in remedying the serious water problems in some of the smaller unincorporated communities in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition because the problem that the people have in Mc Callum is very similar to the problems of a great many people, especially in Fogo district. And, Sir, there is nothing as essential as a good source of drinking water. And it is becoming very, very serious in many communities around the Province.

The same conditions exist in many parts of Fogo distriCt as exist in Mc Callum: People during the Summer months have to go from one community to the other to get water in trucks and sometimes in boats. Arid we have a system in one community where we have a water system in one part of the community and the other part of the community is without it, and that is at Musgrave .Farbour, where the government have not seen fit to complete a water system which was started more than five or six years ago. Consequently, Mr.

Speaker,. one area of Musgrave Harbour is living in the twentieth century and the other part of the district is living back in the nineteenth century. And this'is a shameful condition to have to live in in this day and age. So, Sir, I can understand well the situation at Mc Callum. We have on Fogo Island not one water system, not a water system at all on Fogo Island. And it is difficult to get the government to understand the serious problems which lack of a good source of water presents. 12713 • •

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5271 NM - 1 CAPTAIN WINSOR: So, Mr. Speaker, some changes will have to be made in government's policy to provide, a good source of drinking water. Because, Sir, I am afraid that if the systems continue as they are, that some day we are going to be faced with a very serious epidemic, maybe typhoid fever or what have you. But, Sir, unless something is done and done very soon this Provinde will be faced with a very serious epidemic. Now the government can avoid that:by spending a few dollars in each community to provide artesian wells. Mr.

Speaker, I was flabbergasted sometime a while ago when I heard that a water system in Makkovik in Labrador would cost this Province $50 million. $50 million to get esysteM in one small community of Labrador. MR. FLIGHT: $50,000 per connection. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Surely, Mr. Speaker, there is something wrong with the thinking of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. FLIGHT: $50,000 per household.' CAPTAIN WINSOR: $55 million. MR. FLIGHT: $50,000 per connection, per household. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Sorry if I exaggerated a little. But even with the $5 million - MR. W. ROWE: The good old days are coming back.

CAPTAIN WINSOR: It is a shameful amount of money. It is a shameful amount of money to have to spend in. such a small community as Makkovik. So, Mr. Speaker, I Support that petition and I hope the government will come up with some kind of programme to supply many of the badly needed areas of the communities and of this Province with a good source of drinking water. 12720

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5271 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I cannot constrain myself from getting up when I hear a petition regarding roads or.water or. sewer when it is presented because I have presented • dozens of petitions on the same topics from my own district. But before the minister gets up, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to have a' word to say in support of this petition from the Seventy-Seven Sunset Strip. • Mr.

Speaker, it seems to me, and it was only last night that I had two phones from two communities in my district about the same thing, artesian wells that were drilled three year ago that have not yet been connected up. • Money was allocated last year and the year before but was never • spent. There seems to be something awfully wrong in the Watei Services Division of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. I do not know what it is.

I hope that the new minister will take a long hard look at the Water Services Division and see what can be done for unincorporated areas, especially unincorporated areas where you have pockets of families. nine, ten, fifteen families. andall they want-. they do not want a $1 million water and sewer system -all they want is a few thousand dollars, probably $10,000, perhaps as high as $20,000 to get an artesian well drilled and then of course the distribution lines for which they are quite happy to pay some of the cost.

I have not met anybody yet who said the new restriction imposed last Year, or this Spring, by the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing was wrong, that each family was expected to pay $100 towards the cost. Nobody that I have met, that I have talked to, has complained about that. They said, "Sure, it is only fair and it is only right that we should help ourselves. If the government is going • • .12721

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5271 NM - 3 • MR. CALLAN: to help us then we help ourselves by throwing in some of our own money." Nobody argues againit that. But it is the slowness with which things get done. It drags on for two and three years. You know,it reminds me of trying to, it is similar to trying to get a piece of Crown land processed; it takes two and three years and you go and check on it and it has not moved off.somebody else's desk. Mr.

Speaker, I hope that the new minister will take a look at the Water Services Division, you know, and try to realign it. and if extra staff is necessary add the extra staff so that if $15,000 or $5,000 is allocated to hook up an artesian well that was drilled prior to • the election of '75,- which happened in Dildo, it is still there, not a thing hooked up to it and a school teacher from Dildo spent an hour on the phone yesterday afternoon talking to somebody in the Water Services Division. What a phone bill. One hour on 10 a long distance call from Dildo to St. John's. • There is something terribly wrong, Mr.

Speaker, and .I hope that the new minister will take a look at it. It is.happening all over the Province. I support the petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! • • 12722 • •

Movember.21,1978 Tape No. 5272 AH-1 OPAL QUESTIONS WP. SPEAKER:. Hon. Leader of the Opposition. rR. W.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to direct to the leader of the government, the Premier concerning the upcoming signing of an agreement to form a corporation to develop or at least to deal with the problem of developing the Lower Churchill. A federal- provincial corporation consisting of,I would assume roughly even representatives from both jurisdictions. Would theyremier indicate to the House - he does not have to go into any detail.

I am not asking him at this point to divulge details of what the agreement may contain although perhaps he should before signing-but what I would like to know is,generally4what powers this corporation is intended to have?

Are they, powers to bind this government to sales contracts perhaps, marketing arrangements, a financial deal, say,the raising of $2.5 billion for example, will this corporation have the power to bind this Province with regard to that kind of a contract or that kind of agreement or is it a corporation being set upias I understood it originally,to study the feasibility of developing the Lower Churchill, the options available as far as development is concerned, the various alternatives with regard to transmission, marketing, financial arrangements and so on?

Mould the Premier at least explain to the House or at least give some information to the House on this dichotomy, either the power to bind this Province or merely to study.or to enquire into the feasibility of the various matters which I mentioned? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.' Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Hr.

Speaker, the signing of the agreement to form the Lower Churchill Development Corporation will be of major. significance to the Province, there is no question about that whatsoever. ,With the federal and provincial involvement I think it would be very unfair for me to stand up when negotiations are still going' on and the agreement likely to be signed within a few days, it would be very wrong for me to divulge the total content of that without having at 12723

November 21,1978 Tape No. 5272 AH-2 • rurirn :-MORES: least advised our colleagues in Ottawa as to exactly, they also being part of it because they are obviously part'of the corporation. But the one thing I can assure the House is that we will have an opportunity to have full debate hopefully when we open after the'fourth on this particular subject.

I would like to think as well - well I know that what is in that agreement with the federal government in order to establish a corporation is one that will absolutely look after the interests of this Province whether it be in the field of sales, whether it be in the field of local preference, whether it be in the field Of what have you. The fact is that,yes)the Province 's pcsition and the Province's wellbeing was first and foremost all through the negotiations that we have had. W.POWE: A supplementary. IT. SPEAKER: A supplementary. TIR.W.ROWE: Perhaps I did not make myself too clear, Sir.

At this point I am not asking the Premier to divulge details or even the terms of the agreement, What/ am trying to zero in on is whether this corporation will have the power to bind this Province in perhaps an irrevocable fashion when it comes to financial arrangements, marketing arrangements and transmission arrangements on the Lower Churchill power,or whether we are getting into a positon where it is going to'have preliminary studies done or maybe even final studies done on various options or alternatives effecting or concerning these matters which I have mentioned but without this Province necessarily being finally or irrevocably bound to anything. row by way of just an explanation of my question, the distinction between the two is all-important because there is no point in us here in this House debating terms of an agreement if in fact the powers have already' been given and the corporation has the power to bind this Province in a way which may'not necessarily accord with our ideas or the ideas of many members of this House)or in fact the general public as to • 12724 •

November 21,1978 Tape No. 5272 AH-3 r4.T.MIOTTE: how the Labrador resources should be developed. Can the Premier give us an idea about that? Whether it is going to be studied or is aere going to be a power to bind this Province in some kind of an irrevocable or final fashion? SOtT HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. NEARY: A good question. YR. SPEAKER: The hon.. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I can only say, Mr. Speaker, that the corporation obviously has to have an update of the development costs of the various projects in Labrador.

They have to have an update of the study of what sales options today are available to the Province, that I think goes without saying, but the one thing that I can say is that the Province is fully protected. When you are asking are we bound by the agreement, the 12725

November 21, 1978 Tape 5273 PK - 1 Premier Moores: agreement I think when it is divulged will show that the Province is the one entity in that agreement that is totally protected and has total flexibility within. Not quite as much as my good friend Mr. Jamieson said about Dree when he was askdd originally, Mr. Speaker, it is not'multi-dimentional with extreme flexibility'but it does have extreme flexibility as far as the Province is concerned. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR.NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my question, Sir, is to the head of the administration, the hon. the Premier, and it has to do with the Newfoundland railway. The hon. gentleman knows and members of the House know.there is a very great feeling of uneasiness and insecurity amongst railway workers and freight handlers in this Province. And I want to know now, because the government's position seems to be rather hazy on this subject, have the government done anything to save the Newfoundland railway other than to send a symbolic telegram to Mr. Lang, the Federal Minister of Transport? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER MOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have. And the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs can comment more fully on it at the moment. We had a meeting with Mr. Lang on this when we were in Ottawa last on the Constitutional Conference on this subject. Our position is not hazy at all. It is one of a very firm position regarding the railway. And even with that and with the undertaking by the federal government that they will support that position, the fact is they have cut back on some of the expenditures for maintenance and so on this year, which is not a happy situation at all.

I do not mean to use this with any levity, but I know that after the First Ministers' Conference on the constitution they had a meeting of Intergovernmental Affairs heads and Ministers of Justice of which 12726 •

Novermber 21, 1978 Tape 5273 PK - 2 Premier Moores: Mr. Lang asked that the thing he wanted to carry on his next meeting was a very quiet place 'that they could make sure that they could not be interrupted by the press and that they could really get down to the issues at hand in Canada, and where our Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs suggested that any CN station in the Province could possibly suit that particular location. But the fact is no,it is not a dead issue with us, it is far from it.

And if the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs would like to comment further on it because I know he has ongoing discussions on it. MR. NEARY: Well a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: I will put my supplementary to the Minister • • • • of Transportation and Communications and ask the minister what follow-up AN HON. MEMBER: The hon. Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. NEARY: - or Intergovernmental Affairs. Transportation and Communications AN HON. MEMBER: No. MR. NEARY: No, oh I see.

Well what follow-up if anything have the government done to improve, to make recommendations to improve or modernize the Newfoundland railway. And have the government taken any steps to try and persuade the business community in this Province to shift some of its freight back on rail? And have the government taken any steps to protect the Trans-Canada Highway from these monsters, these tractor trailers that are coming down the highway.) tearing up the highway and guzzling up the fuel in this energy-hungry world that we live in today? MR: SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, our position has been one that has not equivocated at all in this area. Our response to the Government of Canada,who are really the people who must take responsibility for this, and there has been an awful lot of hiding and hedging behind 12727 •

November 21, 1978 Tape 5273 PK - 3 Mr. Doody: CN, and these are the people who have been held responsible for the downgrading of the service in the Province and for all the various aliments and ills that have sprung from it in terms of the deterioration of the railway and in terms of the wear and tear on the Trans-Canada Highway. It is really not a CN decision at all. The. CN is a Crown corporation who are completely at the mercy and at the orders and at the will of the federal government and of the minister responsible.

And a simple directive from the minister responsible should have the result of making CN abide by the decision of the people of Canada. However,that has not been the case.

At the press conference which my hon. friend attended down at Hotel Newfoundland, I think the minister responsible, the federal minister responsible at that time had a very serious, and it appeared to me a sincere statement of the policy and of the conviction of the Government of Canada that the service in Newfoundland) the CN service of Newfoundland would not be curtailed, it would not be downgraded; that there would not be layoffs, that the people involved would have at least as long as the second installment of the Sullivan Commission was published and made available before they could expect any deterioration in either their lifestyle or the service itself.

Unfortunately that has not been the case; As the hon. member knows, there have been several hundred people affected really by a curtailment in train service, trains 12728

:7oveTher 21, 1978 MR. Tape 5274 OW - 1 DOOPY: have been discontinued, service has been discontinued. The most recent news has been that.the budget for C7 's regular maintenance has been cut by at least a quarterimaybe as much as a half and it is difficult to get to the exact numbers. We have been continuingly and consistently sending telegrams, telexes and letters objecting to all of this.

We keep getting replies back from the ministry responsible to the effect that at the earliest opportuntity your complaints will be brought to the attentions of the minister and please 'feel assured that we aware of the problems that you have in this particular regard. It is the most unfortunate situation, it is one that we have very little control over, it is one that we absolutely refuse to give up fighting for. We have:absolutely no intention of trading the substance for the shadow.

It happened a few years ago when regretablya previous administration traded off the rail passenger service for what was purported to be a very adequate and reasonable road traffic service and we ended up with this rather disgusting, insulting,third class bus service that now purports to be Via Rail's'answer to the transportation problems passenger-wise in the Province of riewfoundland. I can assure you, Sir, and the people of this Province that this government has absolutely no intention of going along with that same sort Of cheap trade off.

This Province. is entitled to a first class road service and a first class railroad service and we feel as representatives of the people of this PrOvince that we can settle for nothing less. 5.07.1: HON. =MRS: MR. S. NTAHY: !7,1,7AF.rr: Hear, hear! A supplementary. A supplementary. A quick supplementary to the minister, S. NEARY: Sir. As an indication of the government's sincerity and'the minister's sincerity in what he just said would the nirister send an official of his department to a public meeting in tort aux rasques in the Lion's 12729

November 21, 1978 Tape 5274 rtt _ 2 • • • • S.NEARY: Den at 8:00 F.1!. on November 27th. to attend a meeting in connection with setting up a committee to try to save the railway in this Province,and then another meeting on the 20th. in Corner Drook? Both meetings will be attended by the Executive Director of Transport 2000 which is a national *Jody that are interested in saving the railway. across Canada. Will the minister send an official of his department to attend both of these meetings? MP.. SPEAKER: Hon. minister. Yr- DOODY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I certainly have no hesitation in saying that representatives of the various departments of government that are in involved ...in this particular situation will be most willing, most anxious to make an appearance at any of these meetings that are set up,but I am afraid that the hon. member will have to make his

schedule conform with the

schedule of government rather than vice versa. I realize that the hon. member has more flenibility,he has more free time and perhaps it is easier for him to arrange a

schedule than it is for me. Off the top of my head,I would find it very 'difficult to make a commitment on the exact date.As to the purpose and as to the intent,I think that this particular party and this particular government has been on record for quite a long while as regards to the future of (2' and of the Marine Services and of the (77 rail and of the road transportation system in the Province of Newfoundland. As a matter of actual fact !.t not so long age. Sir, that we signed a three year :road agreement Trans•Canada road upgrading agreement with the Government of Canada through the courtesy of the hon.

Otto Lang and in that particular•agreement it was under- taken that with - n. S. 7.1:A2Y: A point of order. A point of order has come up. :r:=_: To my r:uestions,the.minister, Sir, is off the subject. question was will the government send a representative ••••-.11 11 to this meeting A simple yes or no answer that is all I want from the minister as an indication of the sincerity of the government. 12730 •

'jovember 21, 1373 Tape 5274 - 3 S77.= Order, please: On the point of ordertobviously there is nothing on which the Chair can m'akt a decision. Pon. minister. 7.- POPPY: • Mat was my point, Sir, I did not realize that there was a point. Obviously the officials of the 7%epertment of.Intergovernmental Affairs and of Industrial Development are available at any time within the perameters of their duties.

I cannot really commit a meeting in the Lion's Den, or whatever sort of dens the hon. gentleman frequents at any given particular time or place.I have some responsibilities to the people in the departments which'I represent.I cannot send them -unto the Lion's Den at notice like this. But I am certainly only too happy to arrange all the meetings that are necessary to be arranged. As a matter of fact I have implored and Have begged the Minister of Transport in Ottawa,Mr. Lang to try to arrange a meeting with the unions involved. I have gone to them on their behalf and I have said:Mr.

Lang,there are hundreds of people in the Province of Newfoundland who do not know where their jobs are coming from next year,7ill you please take ten minutes out of your

schedule to meet with them?' Aad he said, 'Why does not somebody bring that to my attention?' Now great heavens here on earth,he is the Minister of Tranport. 12731

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5275 Na - 1 MR. DOODY: If the Minister of Transport in Canada does not realize the fact that the people in Newfoundland are concerned about the CN it is time for his colleagues to really have a chat with him, if indeed they can get through to him. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my.question is to the Minister of Mines and Energy, Sir, and I would appreciate a short

preamble. As the minister is aware and the House is aware, Badger the year before last went through a disastrous flooding situation.

An4Sir, it is a fact that responsible and knowledgeable people now in the Central Newfoundland area are aware and feel that conditions in that river right now, and I will point out the conditions in a second, ire .ripe for another flood in Badger, A very low river condition where Price (Nfld.) drained Red Indian Lake this Summer and now cannot get the water to maintain a decent water level, very low water conditions that with the kind of weather we are getting, you would get a very quick icing over of the river and possibly a freezing to the bottom because there is actually no water left in the river.

And the risk is compounded further by the fact that Price (Nfld.) left approximately 20,000 cords of wood in Exploits River above Badger. The fear is that if we start getting an icing condition below Badger snd that wood starts to move you could have another disastrous flood. And my question to the minister is that, to this point, and he has been informed of the danger out there, to this point has the minister had his officials or his department determined whether or not there is indeed a real concern that the conditions are there that could bring about a return of the kind of flooding we saw in Badger last year?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. 12732

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5275 NM - 2 MR. PECKFORD: I. checked on it this morning at eleven o'clock, Mr.

Speaker, with one of the engineers in the Department of Mines and Energy, who was the person designated last year by me to look after that problem and to ensure that the gauges were in the right places and that the proper measurements were done and to do various studies on the ice fln,q9 and the amount of ice and all the rest of it, the amount of wood in the river, in consultation with the Department of the Environment, and I was speaking to him again this morning and we are going to ensure that that situation is monitored again this Winter.

He did not tell me thought that they did not receive the same seriousness as the hon. member has Just indicated in his

preamble. MR. FLIGHT: And the town council. MR. PECKFORD: And the town council also in a letter • to me just retently. And as a result of the letter from the town council, this Is why I had the meeting this morning, I will as a result of the hon. member's further query in addition to that of the town council, go back to the gentleman tomorrow morning, further insist that he go out and take a look at it to see first hand.

We are hoping this year,because there are people in the Department of the Environment who are more knowledgeable than our Petroleum geologists,fOr example,. or ordinary geologistp 'into this matter to take this lead this year rather than the Department of Mines and Energy. But we intend to keep involved as well and _to also involve Newfoundland Hdyro into water flows and so on because they have some expertise there. But I can assure the hon. member that all steps will be taken through the Department of Mines and Energy, 12733 • • • •

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5275 NM - 3 41 R. PECKFORD: . the Department of the Environment and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro to protect and to do what we can to ensure that the kind of crisis that happened in Badger a couple of years ago does not recur. IP MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, as a result of the flooding in Badger two years ago there were recommendations 4, made. to Cabinet, to government, of things that could be done immediately following the flOods that would protect or defend Badger against that kind of flooding.

Now nothing has been done, Mr. Speaker, that may have been iaugesi - at least the people in Badger cannot perceive anything has been done, this includes the town council, that would have the effect of offsetting that kind of flooding. So I would ask the minister that And it is a fact, Mr. Speaker, whatever the engineers that the minister refers to, come up with, it is a fact that the ideal conditions exist in that river now to cause flooding.

Now I want the minister to tell the House just what the • • • • • government has determined,as a result of this past two years having had time to consider this situation, what they propose to do in the event we.do start getting a build up of ice in Badger and in the event we start getting flooding? What have they got in place as a result of the lesson they learned two years ago? - MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and, Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I do not know where the hon. member gets his information. .I am trying to be reasonable on a very important matter.' The letter that we received from the Town Council of Badger requested, as I remember, that we institute the.snme measures tnat we instituted in previous years. Now obviously if they are asking to 12734

November 12, 1978 Tape No. 5275 NM - 4 MR. PECKFORD: institute the.same measures this year - MR. FLIGHT: What measures? MR. PECKFORD: - as we instituted last year; there must be some measures - MR. FLIGHT: What measures? What measures? MR. PECKFORD: - that we instituted last year. MR. SPEAKER: Order,. please: MR. PECKFORD: And for the hon. member to indicate that he knows of nothing that we have done out in Badger just shows his ignorance of the district. MR. FLIGHT: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: This question, Mr. Speaker,ls on the same subject.I want to refer to the Minister of Forestry, and I want • • • 12735 •

November 21, 1978 Tape 5276 EC - 1 MR. FLIGHT: to ask the Minister of Forestry if he is prepared to tell the House why it is and how it is that a company like Price.(Nfld.) can leave 20,000 upwards - I hive heard figures of 40,000 but 20,000 is confirmed - in the Exploits River below Red Indian Lake.

Now it is bad enough with thousands of cords of logs floating around Red Indian Lake, but this year,'the first year yet, we have 20,000 cords of wood left 'in the river that will not be delivered to the mill, and that wood is causing a grave concern to the people of Badger in the event it would move and come down into an ice jam, something there was no way to deal with. How is it that the minister - number one, is the Department of Forestry aware that.

Price is doing that kind of thing, and how is it that they were prepared to go along with Price leaving 20,000 cords of wood in the EXploits River between Badger and Red'Indian Lake? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Well, I see it did not take very long for the member to get after Price again. He is back on his usual track. I am not aware why the Department of the Environment is allowing Price to leave wood An the Exploits River. I am also not aware of how much damage it is going to cause.

I assume that he is talking again about the Badger situation, but I have no idea what damage it is going to cause.with regard to Badger and any possible flooding. And there is no law that I am aware of that Price is breaking. I am sure if they are that the Department of the Environment will take appropriate, action. MR. SPEAKER: I'have indicated I will recognize • the hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d-Espoir (Mr. Simmons) 12'736 •

• November 21, 1978 Tape 5276 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: followed by the hon. the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) and the member for St. John's West (Dr. Kitchen). Mr. Speaker, I have , a question for the Minister of Finance. I make reference first of all to the provisions under Term 29 of the Terms of Union by which,after the recommendation of the Commission back in 1958.

I believe, it was agreed by the federal government that there would be an annual deficiency payment of the order of $8 million .to help us to maintain a standard of . services commensurate with those obtaining in the Atlantic ProvinceS without having to resort to more burdensome taxation measures. Now, Mr. Speaker, that figure was arrived at in 19580nd presumably in terms of 1958 dollars. • 12737 •

November 21, 1978 Tape 5277 EC - 1 MR. SIMMONS: Inflation alone has meant that in terms of 1975 dollars we are not getting nearly the amount that was intended by the recommendation or by the government of that time, 1958. And I am wondering in the light of that if the government here, the provincial government, have sought to have negotiations reopened with the federal government on the point. MR. HICKMAN: Budget Speech. MR.

SIMMONS: Yes, I say to the minister I am • aware of his reference in the Budget Speech, but the reference includes no indication that 'this government have been talking to the federal government on the point. Indeed,the para'graph would indicate that such dialogue has not taken place. I am asking the minister now if there has been any request to the federal government to reopen negotiations on this point with a view to having the deficiency payment paid in terms of 1978 dollars,which I understand would be of the order of $35 million to $37 million in 1973 dollars? MR. SPEAKER: • The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, in the Budget Speech, on page twelve, I indicated that in going, through the budgetary process, government had reflected on Term 29 and the award of $3 million in perpetuity as a revenue deficiency payment, and pointed out in particular that at that tine in 1958 when this was laid down, it constituted 15 per cent of our current account revenues. The fact is that during the budgetary process, meetings were held in the nation's capital at the ministerial level and at the Prime Minister's and the Premier's level, when the Premier and the then .

Minister of Finance, now the hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, set forth as strongly as we felt we could, 'our arguments, and our arguments were, I think, .very well founded, namely,that the purpose behind Term 29 12738 •

November 21,1978 Tape no. 5278 AH-1 MR. HICKMAN: was to assist Newfoundland in maintaining services, public services„comparable to that of the Maritime Provinces, and because it was as impossible then as it is now to predict with any degree of certainty the escalation in costs, would they be prepared to'reopen it? We talked of various avenues. One was various approaches . and one was indexing and before the budget was brought down we were advised that that avenue was not open to us from the Government of Canada's point of view and there it now stands.

I quite frankly do not believe that we will have any more success if during this year's budgetary process we decide to go back again to the Government of Canada and ask for further consideration. I cannot think of any approach that would be any stronger than the one w'e used before. It was,I repeat,at the First Ministers' level in either January or February of this year and the answer was a definitive no and we then had to come back and try to find other Ways of facing the horrendous task of continuing with a balanced budget for this Province which is very essential. la. ST12100: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary for the minister or for the Premier. The case. here is very particular, it is not a case that any other province can mount, a very particular term of union applying to one Province and one only. It is clear, if one would read the provision in the term,that the intent of the term is no longer being met,and I believe that is the overriding argumentIthat the (3overnment of Canada undertook to assist us financially to maintain a certain standard.

I believe the nature of our taxation, the high taxes we have,is due quite largely Iam sure to the failure of this term to do what it intended to do back in 1949 and certainly after 1958. My supplementary, Mr. Speaker, is would the Premier undertake a further special initiative at the • conference next week, the Economic Conference,on this very point and I am sure that if he needs a unanimous resolution I cannot speak for 12739

Novemher 21,1978 Tape No. 5278 AH-2 "R. SIMMONS: all the House but I think it is the 'And of matter that we would speak with unanimity on-and I would he prepared to move such a resolution,as I am sure any member of this :louse would,to give the government whatever additional mandate it requires from this House to request, strongly urge the federal government to reopen the negotiations on this particular point.

For me it is a very sore one and I do not believe the term is being met at all, the intent of the term is being met,and I would ask the Premier if he would be prepared to mount another special initiative next week at the ;Economic Conference of First Ministers with a view to having this term reregotiated and obviously with a view to returning more money to the Treasury to help us maintain that standard of service which the term intended we be able to de anyway in the first place? R. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, to answer the hon. member's question,it is a subject that has been brought up on several occasions, not just once,.on several occasions It is not one that the federal government obviously wants to reopen. The revenue that is coming in now, I think it is fifteen per cent - MR. DOODY: No,it was fifteen per cent. PREMIER 'MORES; It was fifteen per cent when it was done in 1958. AN HON.YEIMR: It is now less than one.

PREYIEF MOORES: Now it is less than one per cent,which • is totally against the principle of why it was set up in the first place, and which is.really irrelevant on the income of the Province now when one looks at the overall tax base and different sources of funds. I had planned to bring it up at the Economic Conference anyway because I am introducing the paper at the Economic Conference on Regional Development and this is an example of how undertakings by a Central Government can sometimes be shelved and the obligation of the intent of that commitment not being lived up to.

I think it is not only the commitments that are made at times 12740 •

November 21,1978 Tape No. 5278 AH-3 PREMIER MOORES: like that that are important. It is also the spirit in which they are .made and the priorities of the regional areas of Canada that have to be attacked. Now in this Province as we know it is very costly to provide services, it is much more costly to provide them here than it is in the other • • • S • 12741

November 21, 1978 . Tape 5279 PK - 1 Premier Moores: Maritime Provinces even. That,I would suggest,was part of the reason why the federal government felt an extra reason, if you like, to develop Term 29, and to have that fund here until our own resources were developed. That situation has not happened. It is not because of lack of communication. It is one that the federal government do not have to, if they do not want to, they had commissioned the report that that was the figure, and I suppose theoretically they could stick with it.

But certainly in the spirit of what was meant that Term 29 has not lived up with and I will be bringing it up at the Economic Conference. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. HICKMAN: Motion 25, Bill No. 74, that is the adjorned debate on second reading. MR. SPEAKER: MR: HICKMAN: MR. SPEAKER: • MR. HICKMAN: 'MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Is it Order 25? Order 25 right. Or Motion 25? No, no Order 25. Order 25, the adjourned debate on Bill No. 74. Could we have guidance from the Table on who adjourned the debate, please? MR. SPEAKER: Right. If.the Table will inform me, I will inform the members.

I am informed that the hon. member for LaPoile adjourned the debate. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to continue very long with my few remarks, I just want to say, reiterate what I said before, that there are other facilities in Newfoundland that should get the same attention as the Summer Game facilities in St.

John's and I am thinking primarily about the swimming pool in Channel•Port aux Basques, and the swimming pool in Stephenville,where my hon. friend represents the district of Stephenville, which has been closed down, I believe, for five or six years, four or five years, three years it is closed down. The Kinsmen in Channel- r'ort aux Basques have been 12742 •

November 21, 1978 Tape 5279 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: struggling with a swimming pool for that community for the Southwest corner of the Province now for four or five or six years, - AN HON. MEMBER: And in Grand Bank too. MR. NEARY: - and in Grand Bank you have the same thing. We are not objecting, Sir, to St. John's having these posh, luxurious facilities, and we wish them well. But we think, Sir, if there is going to be a policyithe policy should apply to the whole Province and not just to St. John's. And the other complaint that I had, if you can call it a complaintat the time, Sir, was the fact that the City of • St.

John's will only be participating, I believe, to the tune of 25 per cent of the cost of operating the Aquarena, the hangover of the Summer Games. And, Mr. Speaker, while they are only contributing one-quarter of the cost they are down there squandering money right,left, and centre on parking garages. They are giving the Crosbies tax exemptions for the building they are going to rent to the government down there, Mr. John Crosbie, John Crosbie's companies getting a $2 million a year tax exemption from the City of St. John's and asking the taxpayers of Newfoundland to support the Summer Games facilities.

There is something not right about that, Mr. Speaker. They are having a big investigation into the parking garage. That will be another subject that we will bring up when the House goes back into session again.' AN HON. MEMBER: What has that got to do with John Crosbie? MR. NEARY: What has it got to do with John Crosbie? John Crosbie is one of the owners of the companies I am talking about. That is what it has to do with him. AN HON. MEMBER: Do you know that? MR. NEARY: Do I know it? Does the hon. gentleman know it? 12743 •

November 21, 1978 Tape 5279 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, these are the arguments that I have to put forward. Sir, if there is going to be a policy then it should be a policy for the whole Province, and not just single out St. John's and give St. John's the preferential treatment. And I hope, Sir, that the Aquarena will be a success. I have two young daughters who go over there in competitive swimming and synchronized swimming and they enjoy it and the facilities are wonderful, 'they are great, they are good, they are the best in the Province, probably the best in Eastern Canada, And they can get 12744

• November 21, 1978 Tape 5230 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: get up and tell us we are unpatriotic and we do not go along with taking the Summer Games facilities. I could give the Minister of Justice and Finance' a good argument on that but I will not. If we are going to do it, let us do it for the whole Province. Let us do it for Port aux Basques, let us do it for Stephenville and let us do it for Grand Bank and not just give St. John's the preferential treatment. And that is the main argument and bone of contention with this bill. We are not objecting to the Summer Games facilities opening up - MR. W. N.

ROWE: No, we are not. MR. NEARY: - as long as the Aquarena and the Summer Games facilities benefit the ordinary people and not just the elite of this city. And I have talked to the people who are operating it over there, with . whom I am rather impressed, because they seem to be thinking along the same lines, that the ordinary person must participate. And so far, I believe,there is a high degree of participation in the Aquarena; which is a good thing, but I am afraid.

Sir - and we do not know what the deficit is going to be yet,; the deficit is going to be substantial, I would think, anywhere from $300,000 to $500,000. If the Minister of Finance can get away with $500,000 he will be lucky. But do not make it a facility for the well-to-do, for the snobs and the aristocrats and the elite of the city. And believe me, Mr. Speaker, that that can sometimes be done innocently, because, Sir, you take competitive swimming, synchronized swiming : it costs a small fortune to put a couple of kids in synchronized swimming. The ordinary person cannot afford it.

You may have sons and daughters in families in this city who are drawing unemployment insurance, welfare, low income, medium income and sometimes upper income who cannot afford to put their daughters into these programmes because they cost too much. 12745 •

November 21, 1978 MR. FEAR?: Tape 5280 EC - 2 And the travellihg expenses are horrendous. And so, Sir, innocently., not deliberately, It suddenly becomes a facility for the elite. Now, I do not know how to cope with that. I do not think the public Treasury can stand financing all these programmes. I know they are having a swimathon over there now and they are trying to raise some funds to be contributed towards the travelling and ,towards the expenses of people who have to go outside the Province and other parts of the Province.. But these are some of the points I raise, Sir. They are very valid points.

And the one that I am , more concerned about than anything else and the one that I would like to rivet home to the administration is the fact that by opening these facilities, by setting up this commission and by doing all the other things they are doing with the Summer Games facilities they are discriminating; whether they know it or not, against the other parts of Newfoundland. 'Buchans, where you have the mine closing - AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. NEARY: - is being discriminated against;.

Port aux Basques, where you have the Kinsmen struggling for five or six years to get a swimming pool - not open yet, by the way, no indication of when it is going to open; Stephenville, shut down for three years - beautiful recreation facilities left behind,.I believe, by the Americans, . everything shut down, grinding to a halt; stadiums in the Province clinging on by their fingernails trying to keep going to prOvide hockey and skating and roller skating. MR. J. CARTER: They do not pay, you know that. MR. NEARY: Who do not pay? MR. J. CARTER: Stadiums. 12746

November 21, 1973 Tape 5230 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the point I am making. 'The Aquarena is not going to pay. The Aquarena is going to be subsidized and we .do not know how much yet, we have not been told, I would suspect to the tune of $500,000 or more, plus the .fact that this government that the hon•. gentleman is supporting is going to wipe, out the deficit from the Summer Games on top of that. And what I am saying is that the government is not doing the same as far as stadiums, recreation facilities, swimming pools in other parts of the Province are concerned. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Now is the hon. member going to sit there and support that kind of a government, who will make a policy for St. John's and discriminate against the rest of Newfoundland and Labrador? MR.'J. CARTER: Will the hon. member give way? MR. NEARY: Ye'd, Sir, I will give way. I have made my point, Sir. MR. J. CARTER: You are finished? MR. NEARY: No, I am just going, to yield for the gentletan to ask a question. Sure. If the hon. . gentleman wants to ask a question, sure, go ahead. MR. J. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, does the hon. gentleman realize that the stadiums outside of town haVe not taken advantage of a great many money saving 12747

November 21. 1978 Tape No. 5281 NM-1 MR. J. CARTER: methods that are available to such large plantsiFor instance, and this is only one. I will only . take the time of the House to illustrate one example: A stadium has a large freezing plant. It is not used all the year round, and. this plant could be used to supply cold storage facilities at the same time as it provides an ice surface. A cold storage facility.does not use a great deal of power once whatever is stored in it is safely salted down and this could provide an auxiliary use for such stadiums.

Another use that Can be used stadiums is to promote certain public gatherings. I am told that some of these entertainers that come down here need such large facilities in order to make their visit worthwhile. And I understand that there is some difficulty in getting these facilities for these people. I.do not think you can possibly make a stadium pay just by having it for skating and for hockey, but by thinking of other uses for these buildings perhaps you can make them pay. MR.!NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the hon. gentleman's question, Sir,' but I never heard such foolish nonsense in my life.

I would like for the hon. gentleman to go out and become manager of one of these stadiums. It might be all right for the gentleman to operate a savoury patch, but it is a different thing operating a stadium and the gentleman knows nothing of what he is talking about, Sir. There are a couple of stadiums in Newfoundland that are paying their way, their operating costs.

Springdale happens to be one,and I believe the Twin Rinks over here operate year-round, while it may not be paying because I heard recently the gentleman who went out and raised the funds to build the Twin Rinks, and got all the honour and glory for it,is now looking for somebody else to pay for it. And that 1-.appens in a good many cases in Newfoundland. But the Twin Rinks is used on- a 12748

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5281 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: . year-round basis. They have hockey schools going over there. But using them for refrigeration facilities, for what? For savoury? Cabbage, put cabbage in there, fish sticks or what? What is thehon. gentleman talking about? I have no doubt, Sir, the hon. gentleman - MR. RIDEOUT: Cold storage space to rent. MR. NEARY: Why not just take the stadiums and turn them into big warehouses, fill them up with fish, or vegetables MR. SIMMONS: What would he do in October? MR. NEARY: And then in October shove them all out in the snow bank.

I know the hon. gentleman meant well but it is so ridiculous, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: What happens if you get a warm day in November? MR. NEARY: But-the hon. gentleman did make a point. The hon. gentleman,/ think feels in his heart that we should not just limit assistance from the Public Treasury. The money that goes into the Public Treasury comes from the taxpayers all over this Province, from Grand Falls, Labrador City, Port aux Basques, down in Baie Vertei St.

John's, Corner Brook, Harbour Grace, Rose Blanche, Grand Bruit, LaPoile, all over the Province, the taxpayers put their money into the Public Treasury and then the government scoops it out and puts it in St. John's. It makes a policy for St. John's and dicriminates against all these other places I just mentioned. • Does that make sense to the hon. gentleman? So I say, Sir, if you are going to have a policy and you are stuck with the Summer Games facilities, it is an embarrassment, it is an albatross around your neck, it is something that should have never happened but are stuck with its In not let 12749 • •

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5281 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: it become a facility for the elite of. St. John's. And if you are going to have a policy and you are going to pour money into recreation and sport and youth, well then let it apply to the whole Province. DO not discriminate against any particular part of Newfoundland. Give it to everybody. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Stephenville. MR. MCNEIL: Mr.

Speaker, I just rise to speak a few words on the I think that if we are fortunate enough to have such fine facilities like the Aquarena and some other smaller facilities across our Province that our government should provide the necessary funds to provide an adequate and full programme for the benefit of our young and elderly people. I do not think anybody will disagree that recreation and sport today play: a very important

part in our society and it will indeed help if it is programmed right to build a much healthier and better nation. 12750

7.oVenber 21, 1973 Tape 5232 Yr. ;•7. itcNEIL: One of the questions that maybe we should be asking ourselves when we have such a facility on our hands,should we proceed in the direction that "ova Scotia did in HalifPx when they had such a fine facility after the Summer Games?

They treid to conserve on the dollars and cents and as a result over a short number of years the facility declined to a great degree,and as a result the programme also declined, and years later the government and the municipal people involved realized that they moved in the wrong direction and they had to spend more money in trying to bring the facility up to a proper standard. So I think the steps that we have taken here in this Province is a good one in that we are going to make sure that if we run the facility it will be done in a professional manner. I will congratulate the minister for taking that step.

But I am disappointed in this government in not providing the 'same type of principle in relation to financing facilities to other areas across the Province and 'namely in my own district, Stephenvilleiwe have a pool closed down for 7 number of years because there was not enough money in and around the area to run an adequate and decent programme. Now my hon. friend mentioned that the Americans left the pool there, 1o'; the Americans did not leave the pool thered!xtualiy it was a former MOT Building, it was a former air terminal9and it'was converted the people in Stephenville.

The people of Stephenville approached.Lthe government year after year to have a spool built in Stephenville and we were told to go and swim in the pool in Corner Brook which was sixty miles away. The people in the community formed a citizens'group, they raised X number of dollarsiand with the help of the parish they committed themselves financially and they built and established a pool and it ran a very successful Programme for years. One of the means they had as a part of fund raising,they.got involved into running a lounge but in the community there was a lot of 12751

November 21, 1978 Tape 5282 DW - 2 MR. W. McNEIL: conflict in running a liquor establishment when you are also trying to run aquatic programmes to the children. So the Board of Directors at St. Stephen's, after many years trying to bring the facility up to standard-and it actually never did get to a standard where it was acceptable in the aquatic field because it was just a shell of a building,really all it was was an outdoor pool and year after year they put money into it to try to develop it into an indoor pool. They spent more money on capital then they did on programming.

The amount of money 'generated within the facility itself was more than ,adequate to cover the programme itself. But when the Board'of Directors, and I understand that they made this decision on a. commitment froM the government that they would get involved into the financing of the facility,they decided to get out of the liquor business.

So as a result they phased out their bar, which was their only and best source of revenue,and just geared down the operation to just • a bare pool,and then less than a year after the pool had to close because there was not enough money, not enough revenue coming in for just ordinary maintenance,and the thing stopped actually when the pool furnace - well the pool furnace actually broke down one winter,I think it was in February,and a-few days after that the parish made a decision that they could not put more back into facility and the pool closed.

And since then,year after year, month after month, there have been several people in the community approaching government for a commitment,and I dust honestly say that in talking with the minister yesterday that he indicated that there is a commitment made to Stephenville and I would ask the minister to elaborate on that commitment when he stands . up to speak in the Chamber. But I must also point out that in Quebec where they have a lot of facilities-they have the Canada Games and actually the Olympics were held in Montreal - and the Quebec Government approached their problem in this manner and it is 12752

November 21, 1978 Tape 5282 DW - 3 MR. W. McNEIL: in the Steel report and it is stressed that the, provincial government by

an act of legislation took up the capital costs, repairs, maintenace anct.utilities' were carried separately from the programme budget of the facilities.So the Province was responsible for the maintenance, 12753 •

• • • • • • • November 21,.1978, Tape 5283, Page 1. apb MR. MCNEIL: capital costs and utilities, and the municipality that took over that particular facility was responsible for programming. In most cases there was enough. money generated by the participants in the programme to carry the.programme itself. So I think that. maybe the minister's department should look in this direction. I realize that the government is going to have.to make a tough decision if they are going.to just support recreation in a lip-service fashion, or are they going to bite the bullet and support it in tough dollars and-cents?

I realize that the dollars and cents have to come from somewhere so that may mean some taxes. That is a decision that they are going to have to weigh at a later date. But I cannot stress enough the importance of providing an adequate recreation programme. We are actually doing very well with facilities but we have facilities that are in place that do not have a good programme. Apart from the pool in Stephenville, I can also refer to the West Coast Training Centre which is a facility that was given to us by Uncle Sam when the American base closed.

It is a West coast training centre; the government is moving in the right direction in trying to develop it as a provincial training centre, but they are not going far enough in providing programmes. The name of the game is programMes and getting the people involved, getting the people involved in recreation programmes, recreational sport. For example, the facility is closed on the weekends. Most people work during the day- time.

That is okay for the people who are on welfare; during the week they can go and enjoy the recreational facility, but if you are working from nine o'clock to five or six o'clock in the evening, and sometimes people work at night, the only time they have off is on the weekends 12754

November 21, 1978, Tape 5283, Page 2 apb MR. MCNEIL: but when they come home to their community on the weekend the recreational facility is closed - that is the West Coast Training Centre. So there should be a full programme. Again it is going to cost a little bit extra in dollars to the provincial government to provide a programme, but if you have the facilities in place put the programme there as well and I think there will be more returns coming back. Because it does help to build a better community and in turn we have a stronger nation. 'I will not take any more time in the Chamber.

I would support the bill and I would ask the minister when he stands to elaborate on his commitment that there would be a swimming pool for Stephenville, and if he would give some consideration to extending the programmes in such facilities as the West Coast Training Centre and, I am sure, in the Provincial Centre here in Torbay so that the majority of people in the community can take better advantage of the programmes that are available. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER(Collins): The hon. the Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to deal with a couple of points made by my hon. friends opposite. The member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) made reference to Channel - Port aux Basques and I think it is necessary for me to point out to the House that the government provided $200,000,which is' the amount permitted under out policy, for swimming pools to Channel - Port aux Basques. I am aware,as he is,that there are some problems.

To go outside of that means an extension of what we are talking about in terms of the Aquarena, not to the same extent, mind you, but to the extent where we are either going to subsidize or revise the policy which is already costly and which we can ill afford at this particular point in time. 12755

November 21, 1978, Tape 5283, Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKEY: I think it is not fair to say that; to equate Channel - Port aux Basques or Stephenville or, for that matter, any other part of this Province with the Aquarena or the SumMer Games facilities that we'are talking about here. For the record, Mr. Speaker, I am not:sure, I cannot recall definitively whether I said this in introducing the bill, but I want to say it and run the risk of repetition because it must be said, it must be said for the record; this government inherited the Summer Games facilities.

It was.not our design or architecture or priority or plan that brought them, we have never taken credit for them, they were brought to this Province through the lobbying, the enthusiasm and the.efforts of the City Of 12756

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5284 NM - 1 MR. HICKEY: . St. John's and a group of interested people. They were subsequently developed and run and the facilities • built by the Society for the Canada Summer Games, who,we all know,is headed by Andrew Crosbie, Grant Chalker, people well- known by my hon. friends opposite, certainly closer to my friends opposite than indeed they are to people on this side of the House.

I do not know, therefore, why my colleagues on the other side find it such a bad thing that those two gentlemen, and all the others connected with them in a voluntary effort, developed in terms of the Canada Slimmer Games and the necessary facilities which came with it. The end result,•Mr.

Speaker, was that we had, after making a sizeable contribution to enable the games to take place, our Capital City having been chosen, surely goodness we were not to turn our back-on the effort which had been already achieved in getting the Canada Summer Games here and surely any government would make a contribution,which we did,.and a generous one at that. There were no plans for this government to involve itself, nor any commitments to take over the facilities. MR.

MCNEIL: If the facilities•as you say, you know,you had no part of it if the facilities, the Canada Summer Games,a site was chosen for Western Newfoundland or Labrador would you give the same type of treatment as paying twenty-five/ seventy-five? 'And if the answer is yes, why not do it on a smaller scale where there are less dollars involved; It is only a small pool not a total complex.. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend, you know if he is going to banter with me on recreation I had better do some research.

He should be well aware of the fact that the Newfoundland Winter Games, the same formula was followed, the same procedure was followed, the precedent was followed. Indeed 12757

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5284 NM - 2 MR. HICKEY: it was not patterned after the Canada Summer Games because we had not yet made the decision. But it was a policy which was conceived by this' administration in our efforts .to develop recreation, sports and fitness in the Province by. putting money into facilities, necessary facilities, to improve those facilities, to raise them to a standard which could prodUce the excellence in our athletes in Grand Falls, in Gander and in Goose Bay, jUst last year. MR. MCNEIL: But you cannot provide money to those facilities to•run them the year after. Only in St.

John's you have made that distinction. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, again my friend is wrong. We already provide money to run and operate, those facilities. MR. MCNEIL: On an annual basis. MR. HICKEY: The fact that we do not pay the full shot should not be necessarily a condemnation of us.you know, because we go eighty per cent of the way or ninety per cent of the way if we do not go the hundred per cent of the way. You knows there are so many dollars to go around and that is all we can do and we must recognize the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that we are living in a Province which is not blessed at this point in time with the kind of revenues that allows us to do the things that we want to do just as much as,my hon. friend wants to do them. So he must recognize that. That is a fact of life and one of the things that have gotten us into so much trouble in the last thirty years of Confederation is the fact that governments before we came into office did not recognize that. Now I do not want to get political because that was not the purpose for which I stood.up. Let me simply say again for the record, Mr.

Speaker, that this government I think acted handsomely in moving quickly to take over those facilities, to show an interest, a further and continuing 12758

• • • November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5284 NM - 3 MR. HICKEY: interest now that the facilities were there, not to allow them to be closed up any longer. Indeed they were closed for too long as it was. We did not rush into anything. We got one of the best, if not the best, individuals in the Province to tell us in his expert way and with his professional experience just what we should do with them and how they should be.run. And, Mr. Speaker, today we'are following almost to the letter the recommendations of the Steele Report, which has-been hailed by all the sports people and recreation people across the Province.

I can say with the great of assurance, having talked to people from outside this Province, that we have the best facility in the country and one of the best facilities in North America in terms of the Aquarena. That facility, Mr. Speaker, whatever kind of a noose it' might appear to be around our necks in terms of operating expenses at this point in time, will allow our athletes to produce the excellence in terms of the potential that our young people have, to produce the • • • 12759

November 21, 1978 Tape 5285 PK - 1 • Mr. Hickey: excellence that is necessary in terms of an opportunity of our people and will continue the rise and improvement of our athletes across the nation as was so vividly demonstrated during the Canada Summer Games when they won the coveted cup or trophy as having shown the greatest level of improvement of any province or territory in the country. Surely goodness this is like motherhood, How can anyone possibly stand in their place and be against that? We are not boasting about the fact that we are going to have to pay some money. MR.

NEARY: There was never anybody against that. MR. HICKEY: No, well. You know, what we are saying, Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend is saying that this should happen across the Province. MR. NEARY: Of course. MR. HICKEY: And I will agree with him that it should provided the money is there to do it. MR. MCNEIL: Did you have the money for this Aquarena? MR. HICKEY: No. MR. MCNEIL: Hely am glad you found it. MR. HICKEY: We had to sit down and redo to our priorities, we did not have the money budgeted for the Aquarena we had to find it. MR. MCNEIL: And it can be found. MR.

HICKEY: I can honestly say as Minister of Recreation,in my dying days as Minister of Recreation,and having gone across the width and length of this Province,that certainly not,we would not have assigned that kind of priority to the monies that we had to have, the amount of money that we have spent. But what does one do when a facility grows - AN HON. MEMBER: You are being harassed by your colleague. MR. HICKEY: - and it is there? You know, I mean we are locking the door, it is like locking the door when the horse is gone. So there it is. AN HON. MEMBER: Your colleague is harassing you. MR.

HICKEY: I just want to briefly touch on the swimming pool my hon,friend mentioned, and to say to him that this government's 12760 0

November 21, 1978 Tape 5285 PK 2 • t. Mr. Hickey: record is unquestionable, cannot be faulted, cannot be criticized as far as the swimming pool in Stephenville is concerned. MR. RIDEOUT: You are getting on dangerous ground. MR. HICKEY: I personally met with a number of people on,I believe,two occasions. I talked to a number of people on two or three other occasions; each and every time I talked to them I gave them the same answer, and I said simply that you activate that swimming pool,or show me a plan where you are going to,and we will make available the funds to do it.

We cannot agree to build a new swimming pool in Stephenville when there is one lying idle. We cannot put money into a pool that is owned by the church. But if the Rotary Club wants to do it,as there was an indication on one occasion they were interested, we will do business with them. If the Town Council wants to do it,as some of the other town councils do in the Provincelwe will do business with them, We will make available the funds that are necessary to bring it up to the same standard of swimming pools across this Province.

That can hardly be construed as not being interested or not being willing to do anything. MR. MCNEIL: No. I am very pleased to hear that the minister said he will, because the last time he said that it would have to be only the Town Counsil involved. But he is willing to deal with any other body? AN HON. MEMBER: Except the church. MR. MCNEIL: Except the church. MR. HICKEY: I believe the Town Council, Mr. Speaker, that is the people we usually do business with.

But if the Town Council is not going to do itiin co-operation with the town and with the Town Council giving its blessing to the other organization,certainly there is no reason in the world. Why,some of our best facilities are operated and operated most efficiently by organizations such as the Kinsmen Club. So there is no reason in the world why we would not do something like that. And I would hope that in the not too distant future something can be done with that pool. We are not happy about 12761 •

NoVember 21, 1978 Tape 5285 Pk - 3 Mr. Hickey: the fact that it is idle any more than my hon. friend. The only other point, Mr. Speaker, that should be made is that with regards to the

schedule of the centre out there, I do not have the details. I can only say to him that I will pass on his concerns to my officials and to see what we can do . I do not know if we can in the present fiscal year extend the hours of operations, but certainly if not it is a recommendation which we will certainly like to look at in terms of the next fiscal year and do whatever we can. Mr. Speaker, there are a couple of changes that I would like to have made in.

Committee stage,.and before I sit down I want to take this opportunity to express my sincere thanks as minister to the members of the Commission who have done a creditable job, a first-class job in taking a number of facilities and putting them into operation at very short notice. And not only that, Mr. Speaker, but to develop a programme which is second to none.- MR. NEARY: What is the price tag? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, if I can carry on without being interrupted.I am not in the habit of trying to shout over somebody else. MR. NEARY: What did it cost? MR.

HICKEY: If the hon. gentleman has a question when I recognize him he can get up and ask. MR. NEARY: Well waht is the cost? MR. HICKEY: The Aquarena programme, Mr. Speaker, is one that all hon. members should read and they will get the answer in that programme, • 12762 •

November 21, 1978 Tape 5286 EC - 1 MR. HICKEY: for in that programme the question raised by my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary), who says this should not be for the elite - every facet of the population can be involved in the Aquarena programme, the aged, the infirm 5 there is a special pool over there for people who require therapy; the kiddies, the beginners, the teenagers, the babies just walking. Holy goodness, you know, there is nobody in this Province who cannot take

part in a programme that is available at that facility. 111 MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER:. HR. HICKEY: I am there every day. Leave room for the aged and infirm. Mr. Speaker, .I am saddened by the fact that my friend from LaPoile did not stand in his place today and hail this as one of the best programmes in the Province, because it is the best in the country. MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HICKEY: How much? He goes with the aged and infirm. Mr.

Speaker, I will answer the question if I have the responsibility for doing so, during Estimate time, and there will be no reason in the world why we will not give a blow-by-blow account of every dollar spent on the Aquarena, the Summer Games facilities, because in, our view, Mr. Speaker, in the long run, it will be dollars well spent, because it will create the excellence • in terms of the potential our people have and it will make good citizens. And let us face it, that is really what we are all here to do.

I would like again to thank the members of the Commission who have done such a wonderful lob and I hope that they can continue. And I want to especially mention the name of Dr. Doug Eaton, who is chairman of the Commission, and unfortunately for personal reasons hrs to resign. I want to say a special thank you to him and to all other members of the Commission. I move second reading. 12763 •

November 21, 1973 Tape 5286 EC - 2 On motion, a bill,

An Act To Provide For The Administration Of Certain Facilities Constructed For The Canada Summer Games," Bill No. 74, read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House now by leave. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on said bill, Mr. Speaker ' left tte Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please: Bill 74. On motion clauses' and 2 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 3 carry? MR. HICKMAN: Clause 3, 3(

a) strike three and insert five, five members. SOME HON. MEMBERS:- MR. HICKMAN: put him on that commission. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: On motion, amendment carried. Oh, oh! If you want to lose a friend Shall clause 3 as amended carry? No salary', no salary. It will not be (inaudible) Tory hacks. MR. CHAIRMAN: carried. carried. Order, please! On motion clause 3 as amended, a On motion clauses 4 through 22 MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 23 carry? MR. HICKMAN: Clause 23, there is an amendment which reads, This Act is deemed to have come into force S on the 1st day of July, 1978. On motion, claupe 23 as amended, carried.

On motion, that the Committee • report having passed Bill No. 74 with amendment, carried. 12764

November 21,1978 Tape No. 5287 tH-1 On motion that the Committee rise, • report progress an& ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Chairman of Committees. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the 4111 'T.qhole have considered the matters to.them referred and have passed Bill 74. with amendment and ask leave to sit again. VP. SPEAKER: The Chairmn of the Committee of the Thole report that it has considered the matters referred and has directed him to report Bill No. 74 with amendment.

On motion report received and On motion amendments read a first •On motion bill read a third time, ordered passed and title he as on the Order Paper. On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole1on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMITIES OF SUPPLY MR. HI AN: Motion 3 Bill No. 49. "An Act Further To Amend The Loan And Guarantee Act, 1957." (Bill Mo. '9) Mr.. WEARY: I assume the minister will give us an explanation for these loans for Lasteel,Eastern Provincial Airways Pogo Island, Sunshine Dairy, and Fishery rroducts. VP. CHAIPM: Order, please: ne resolution relating to Bill 49.

The hon. minister. R. HICI2WT: Kr. Chairman, this is the annual • 12765 • adopted. and second time.

NovemI:cr 21,1E78 Tape No. 52t7 AU-2 7P. HICKMAN: Loan and Cuarantee Act which comes T.sefoie this hon. House, requesting the House to ratify loans .11.1d guarantees made during the ensuing year. As the bill showslloans were made to Easteel Industries Limited in the sum of $800,000', Eastern Provincial Airways(1963) Limited $6 million, Pogo Island Shipbuilding and, Producers Co-op Society Limited $140,000, Sunshine Dairy Limited $250,000, Fishery Products(Harbour Dreton)Limited, $2,911,600. The Easteel guarantee, Hr. Chairman, is in support of a bank loan for $800,000.

The loan was to provide the company with bridge financing pending payment of substantial holdback receivables and settlements of the claim and to cover certain additional costs. The guarantee was issued on March 27,1978 for a term of approximately fifteen months to expire June 30,1979. As security the government holds a second mortgage on land and buildings and a first floating charge on the other assets of the company. An HON. MEISEF: Who holds the first mortgage? MP. HICK AN: I am not sure. I do not know. Probably the bank.

The company presently has an average of 150 employees and since March 1978 it has been making good progress on the collection of holdbacks and the settlements of claims and the accumulation of new business. During the term of the guarantee, officials of the Department of Finance and the Department of Industrial Development will continue to monitor very closely the operations of the company. Easteel Industries, Hr.

Chairman, is one of two companies in the Province engaged in the fabrication of structural steel and it is for this reason it was thought that the company was a significant element in the local economy and that we should assist them at that time. Eastern Provincial Airways (1967 Limited, this loan authorized the guarantee in support of a banl.: loan of $6 million • 12766

November 21, 1978 Tape 5288 GM-1 MR. dIC2:AN: to enable the company - they were in • pretty difficult straits at that time - to obtain interim financing which was utilized to repay a loan of $11/2 million to Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation and for working capital purposes. The guarantee . was issued December 2, 1977, for a term of approximately 10 months expiring June 30,.1978. The company, Mr. Chairman, gave adequate security to the Province and my understanding is that this year has rot been - the company has worked its way out of the financial-problems that it found itself in 1977.

Like all other regional carriers, it has not enjoyed the same kind of business that Air Canada and Canadian Pacific Air, whc have the major routes across Canada, are enjoying and hopefully as a result of some announced policies by the Government of Canada that this may rectify itself somewhat in the future. The Pogo Island Shipbuilding and Producers' Co-op Society Limited - this was the issuance of a guarantee in support of a bank loan for $140,000 to be obtained by that company for the purpose of enabling the co-operative to liquidate existing bank loans which were previously guaranteed by the Province.

The guarantee was issued on October 18, 1977, for a term of seven years expiring October 18, 1984. The new guarantee has the effect of enabling the co-operative to obtain a more favourable repayment term for the $140,000 bank loan. As security for the guarantee, Government has formed an advisory committee to monitor and control the Operations of the co-op. Our records indicate and the advice we are getting is that since 1975 the co-op has continued to grow in its fishing operations and during the peak of the fishing season it employs several hundred people either in its plants or indirectly as fishermen.

The Sunshine Dairy loan - this again was an authorized guarantee in support of a bank loan for $250,000 to be obtained by Sunshine Dairy Company Limited for the purpose of providing the company with additional working capital and to liquidate existing bank loans which were guaranteed by the Province. The guarantee was • • • a S • 12767

November 21, 1978 Tape 5288 • • R. HICKMAN: issued February 21, 1978, for a term of approximately ten years expiring March 1, 1980. !,s security Government holds a first mortgage on land and buildings and chattel mortgage on specific equipment and the floating charge over all other assets. This company has achieved modest growth in the past years and Government monitors the operation by having a member on its Board of Directors. The last loan guarantee on this one is with Fishery Products(Harbour Breton)Limited and that took place on July 6, 1977.

The assets which were acquired by Fishery Products Limited were situated at Harbour Breton and were acquired from B.C. Packers Limited. There was also a satellite operation located at Change Islands in Herring Neck and this provides for the repayment at 9 per cent per annum in 17 equal semi-annual blended payment instalments commencing February 28, 1979. Fishery Products have giyen adequate security - MR. NEARY: Who will pay the extra? m?. 11110111N: Too late for that no.: MR. HICKMAN: Too late now. And what it has done.. Mr.

Chairman, it has allowed the plant at Harbour Breton,which was in difficult straits-and the production was down,as everyone who has been to Harbour Breton knows. The complaint of the union there in particular has been over the years that the landings were way below the plant's capacity and that work was sporadic. That plant lends itself to 12768

November 21, 1978 Tape 5289 DW - 1 MR. HICKMAN: side trawler operations and Fishery Products did have the side trawlers ,fortunately,which they could provide for the operation of the Harbour Breton plant. It is my understanding that employment opportunity in the Harbour Breton area as a result thereof has improved considerably and is continuing to improve. MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. member. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, just one or two questions I want to put to the minister, Sir, First of all, I do not know why the government bailed out Easteel.

The minister told us-that there were 150 people employed, but is it the policy of government when an industry like that runs into trouble - I • presume Easteel is into the Development Corporation and that is why probably the government had to bail them out,to protect the. investment of the Newfoundland Development Corporation.Fasteell I remember their name turned up fairly regularly when I was IP doing some research on the Rural Development Authority the loans they were lashing outland the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation and the Federal Business Development. Bank. But what is the policy?

What does the government use for guide lines' when they bail out an industry like this?. And who are the people that had the holdbacks? I mean, did they perform? The minister expressed some concern that they were - well not concern,but they were gradually getting their holdbacks released. But who is holding back and why? Is it because of non-performance? Is it standard procedure to holdback so-much on a contract that they may have had? Could the minister be a little more specific and give us some more details on it? ID Now Eastern Provincial Airways

(1963) Limited there is $6 million here. Where do we stand now with regard to Eastern Provincial Airways? Have they paid off all the previous loans that they had? Is this additional financing? I think the old loans amounted to around 12769 a •

• November 21, 1978 Tape 5289 DW - 2 • • • • MR. S. NEARY: $12 million. Is this $6 million to make it $18 million or have they wiped out some of the old loang? The minister also again said that thespOlicies of the . Government of Canada may make it more practical now for Eastern Provincial to do a little better financially this year than they did last year. While I am on my feet, Sir, I might say-and I do not know how hon. members of the House feel.

I do not know what it is costing us-I was rather disappointed that the government allowed that training centre to go over in Halifax.I think that is one of the things for which this government will never, be forgivenland Eastern Provincial have managed to transfer a lot of their people to Halifax.

Now they had a big opening recently of the maintenance depot out in Gander and I noticed all the Tories were trotted out in full regalia and the people who started Eastern Provincial Airways, the Liberal Government, the Smallwood administration, the Liberal Government of this Province that started,uplas my hon. friend knows because my hon. friend was in the Cabinet at the time. Eastern Provincial Airways would not have been here today but for the Liberal Government.and not one Liberal member of this House,not even the Leader of the Opposition,was invited to, opening of that maintenance centre in Gander.

It was turned into a partisan political deal to: try to beef up the image of the administration and invite the Premier out to cut a ribbon for a centre that had been there - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) the member for Gander. MR. S. NEARY: - since the days of the Liberal administration. All they did was beef it up a little bit. And what it did,I presume, I hope it consolidated the maintenance operation in Gander.I hope that as a result of the opening of that centre that no more of the Eastern Provincial personnel will 12770

• • • November 21, 1978 Tape 5289 DW - 3 MR. S.NEARY: be transferred to other provinces of Canada. Mr. Chairman, that is a Newfoundland airline and it was a mortal sin for this government to allow the Government of Nova Scotia to take the training centre and put it over in Halifax, over in Nova Scotia, It should have been built in Gander and all the, crews and all the'flight attendants, all the captains and first officers and all the maintenance people should be in thls,Province because it is our airline, It is paid for by the taxpayers of this Province, -it.is a Newfoundland airline.

And I might say, Sir, that what started me off on that little trend of thought was the fact that every time I travel I am proud of that airline. I do not know what the people of Newfoundland and Labrador would do today 12771 •

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5290 CW - 1 MR. NEARY: without Eastern Provincial Airways. Eastern Provincial Airways provide in my estimation, and I have not travelled all around the world but pretty close, an excellent service, second to none.Eastern Provincial Airways, I an always so proud of it and lido not know what the travelling public in Newfoundland would do without Eastern Provincial Airways. You can get aboard of your plane down here at the air- port, I can and I represent a district right out on the other end of the.

Island, I can get on the plane in the morning and I can fly into Stephenville and I can go down and spend the day in Port Aux Basques and I can be back home again that night.

You can do the same thing in Labrador City and Wabush, Absolutely fantastic,Sir: It is an excellent service and I have nothing but the greatest admiration for the crew, They can fly planes and land in Newfoundland airports and in the Atlantic Provinces; the captains and the first officers can put their planes down when Air Canada, with their great reputation, are hovering overhead making two or three swipes at the airport and then ending up in Gander or Halifax.

It is a fantastic operation, Sir, and I am proud of it but perhaps the minister might,in the process of my heaping great praise on Eastern Provincial Airways, give us a little more on how much it is costing us and when the minister expects Eastern Provincial Airways to get into the black, I know they had a good year this year because of the Air Canada strikes and so forth,but what kind of policies is the minister talking about from the Government of Canada would help Eastern Provincial Airways to get into the black? Mr.

Chairman, I tell you what I think should happen; I think,Sir, and I say this without fear of contradiction, that Eastern Provincial Airways should be the regional carrier in the four Atlantic Provinces and Lick Out Air Canada. Air Canada, Sir,, like C.N.,look down their nose at the Atlantic Provinces and 12772

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5290 CW - 2 • MR. NEARY: Newfoundland and all we are getting from Air Canada is a third-rate service in this pro- vince. They think they are doing you a favor by travelling Air Canada. I would rather travel Eastern Provincial Airways anytime myself and I think the time has come when whoever makes the decision,I do not know who it is or what body it is makes the decision, let Air Canada come in from Montreal to St. John's or Stephenville or wherever it is, Toronto, but kick them out of the Atlantic Provinces altogether and let Eastern Provincial Airways take it over.

That is what I would do,because they are proViding a good service, they have good aircraft, good crews and good flight attendants and they are a great crowd of people. But now, Mr. Chairman, I do not want to dwell on that. We can save that for another time. The Fisheries Products one again in Harbor Breton-perhaps I will read the newspaper while I an waiting for the hon. gentleman. What is this all about,this Fisheries Products one? I thought they had so much money they did not know what to do with it, Did they have the government across the barrel over the Harbor Breton fish plant.

Fishery Products could have very easily went out and bOught that plant themselves, Change Islands and Harbor Breton, Obviously the government was across a barrel and they were backed up in the corner and they had to fork over this $2,911,000. But I 40 believe all the other loans, perhaps the minister can tell me, with Fisheries Products had been consolidated and wiped out. MR. DOODY: They are under one loan agree- ment. MR. NEARY: All under one loan agreement but, in other words,we are still- on the hook. I thought they went to a banker or some finnAcial institution and got the government off the hook. MR.

DOODY: They are on the hook. • 12773

November 21, 1978 Tape No. 5290 CW - 3 MR. NEARY: In other words, we still own Fishery Products, let us face it, we own them body and soul, the people of this province own Fishery Products. MR. DOODY: As .a representative of the people of this province I am too modest-- MR. NEARY: A rose by any other name smells just as sweet,but it is nationalization and it is just as well for us to admit that we own it, Anyway, perhaps the minister could tell us a little more about