Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VER.BATIM REPORT MONDAY, DECEMBER f6, 1974 SPEAKER.: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 90

December 16, 1974. The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. "IR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Tape 2138 Rll - l I note we have in the i:>,allery today the M.P. for St. John's West. I certainly welcome him to the Chamber and to the gallery today. MR. SP EAKER: MR . t . MAYNARD : MOTIONS: The honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will ontomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Labour Relations Act." ~SWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: !:f!l. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education. :1R. G.

OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table answers to oral questions asked by the honourable Member for St. Barbe North last week. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. T. FARRELL: Mr.

Speaker, a question that the honour able Member for Bell Island directed to me last week concerning the Health Science r;omplex: The Health Science · Complex is progressing very satisfactorily, exceedingly well indeed and besides public works officials exercising control over the project the results of a monitoring committee which is shared by the secretary of the Treasury Board; a quarterly audit is done and these audits are the responsibility of the Deparonent of Finance. The Federal Government are also aware of every aspect of the pro j ect as they review our books from time to time .

All of these contracts have been publicly tendered. The bids for some of the remaining mechanical work and electrical work on the complex will almost triple the estimates of the project managers. This is due to the fact that the construction industry is in a hip:hly unstable period and suppliers are refusing to hold prices until an actual purchase order is received and sometimes not even then. Therefore contractors are forced to protect themselves on larger projects which take a fair time to complete, particularly leading over six months.

This has certainly reflected on some of the astronomical bids which have been received in the past year. It was decided therefore to reject the tenders for the remaininiz mechanical and electrical work on the Complex and publicly, Sir, retender, cost plus, fixed-fee contracts for this work. The lowest fixed - fee w~s recommended and accepted for the remaining mechanical work. The lowest fixed-fee has been 8205

December 16, 1974. Tape 2138 RH - 2 recommended as yet and not been accepted for the remaining electrical work. I sincerely hope that the honourable Member for Bell Island will be gracious enough to retract his statements as they relate to the administration of this project, my officials and also the project manager. Thank you, Sir. MR. NEARY: On a point of order. Can the minister clarify that, Sir. That is a slur, that is a slur al!;ains t ny character, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please: MR. NEARY: Sir, would the minister care to indicate - MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: The point raised by the honourable member for Bell Island is not a point of order. MR. NEARY: It is a point of oersonal privilege, Sir. I would like for the minister - the minister has made an accusation that is untrue and I want the minister to retract it, Mr. Speaker. ~- SPEAKER: privilege. The Chair does not consider this to be a matter of personal MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. NEAR!_: '!'r. Speaker, the minister has - 1'1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The Chair has rules on this matter. The Hon. the Premier . MR. F. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, regarding a question that was asked last week. First of all whether information services, the allegation was made that they were at Gander to the annual meeting of the P.C. Party. That is incorrect. There was no one there from information services to our knowledge. Secondly, the use of the government aircraft, it was alleged to carry delegates to that meeting - The aircraft was used on the 21st by myself to go to Gander the day before the annual meeting, not, Sir, like the honourable Mr.

Jamieson for the honourable members edification who came all the way from Ottawa to see his French Canadian organizer for the leadership convention. But in this case I went to Gander. Secondly there were no flights on the 22nd the second day of the annual meeting, Sir. Thirdly, on the day after the annual meeting the honourable John Crosbie and the honourable Tom Hickey returned to 8206

December 13, 1974. Tape 2138 RH - 3 St. John's toi:ether with two stre tcher cases, four people from the Department of Heal th and the day afte r that - MR. ~EARY: Inaudible. Myself and the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations returned - NR~ SPEAf.J::R: Order, please! ~~ 'IOORES: That was the t otal use of the aircraft , Sir, for that particular week. :,m.. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Premier fot the answers to d 1e questions hut I would like to make it quite clear that they were questions asked . 8207

December JC,. 1974 Tape 2139 IB-1 There were no allegations made. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to give the reply. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. NEARY: Would the Minister of Public Works, Sir, indicate to the House in view of the answer that he gave to my question this afternoon, if it is his intention to table in this honourable House all contracts that have been let by the Scrivener Engineering at the Health Science Complex, if the minister will table all renegotiated contracts, all tenders that have been called, the renegotiated contract with Scriveners themselves?

Would the minister also indicate what it is I said about his official that has got him so up tight? HON. DR. T.C. FARRELL (MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND SERVICES): It should be put on the Order Paper but I would like to answer the last portion of the question. I never meant to reflect on the honourable Member f~r Bell Island, I 1ust ~sked him to retract because there was an implication, I thought, in the question, that there was - I think the word was used - hanky-panky or something of that nature, or finagling. I do not know. I may be incorrect.

I am just saying I have no intent to reflect on the member for Bell Island, the honourable member for Bell Island, on that portion. The rest of it, I would like to table that, put it on the Order Paper and I will see later. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the honourable minister then prepared to admit that the policy of calling tenders especially for the electrical and mechanical work at the Health Science Complex has been discontinued and they are now inviting tenders for this work? DR. FARRELL: Mr.

Speaker, I have already stated twice that tenders were called for this work, Sir, and will retender because of the astronomical bids that were coming in. I tried to explain the reason for these bids today. Under the system of project management that is in force et the complex, they have quite a large staff there. They can oversee the very much increased costs, the cost-plus fixed-fee contract. We have no intention at any time, of stopping to ask for tenders on every project in this government. As you know, Sir, there was a Tendering Act which was 8208

December 16. 1974 Tape 2139 put through during my absence and we intend to follow that to the letter. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Sir. I just want to be perfectly clear - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. IB-2 DR. FARRELL: Excuse me, a point of order. What was that remark - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: I agree it was put through in the minister's absence. DR. FARRELL: Oh, I am sorry. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is what I said earlier. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: DR. FARRELL: All right, Sir. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. I just want to be perfectly clear on this point, Sir.

In the minister's statement that he read to the House this afternoon in answer to my question, did I understand the minister as saying that the tenders for electrical and mechanical work were rejected and they were now negotiating on a cost plus basis? Is this what the minister is saying? DR. FARRELL: No, Sir, I am not saying that. It went to public tender. Tenders were received. They were too high. They were retendered and the lowest tender coming in on a cost-plus, fixed-fee basis was negotiated on part of the mechanical. This was the only way we could see to do it, Sir.

On the electrical, it is now being decided upon which direction we should go. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am still not quite clear but I will try to get the information some other way, Sir, and the disclosures of course will come later. I wonder if the honourable the Premier, Sir, will tell us whether he had any luck in this latest jaunt over to England and give us some details of the proposed second oil refinery and not juat what we heard on the news and read in the newspaper. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the situation is on the second oil refinery that negotiations have and are progressing very well.

We will be in a position in this House, I would hope, in the early part of January, to bring in a bill 8209

December 16, 1974 Tape 2139 at which time it will be debated in full. MR. ROBERTS: So, t:he present act does not touch the amendment or change or replace? _MR. MOORES: Are you asking a question or not? MR. ROBERTS: I was asking a question. _MR. MOORES: Well, get up and ask it. MR. ROBERTS: You do not have to answer it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR • . MOORES: Or, are you not allowed to answer it. MR. ROBERTS: We are a little tewier now. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: ~- MOORES: /u'e we tender? MR. ROBERTS: Yes, we are tender. MR. MOORES: You should be. MR, ROBERTS: Yes, we are. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

MOORES: You have a tender bedfellow. MR. ROBERTS: Going to slug me again? MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! Order, please! I would rE!lllind the honourable members t:hat we are into the question period and some members do !:,ave questions to ask. I would suggest that they do have the right 8210

December 16, 1974 Tape 2140 PK - 1 to be heard in silence. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I presume the Minister of Fisheries is still the government's representative on the linerboard logging operations in Goose Bay. MR. CROSBIE: Right on! MR. NEARY: Right on! Well I wonder if I will be right on, on this question, Sir. Would the minister care to give details to the House of the new policy developed at the Linerboard logging operations in Goose Bay to pay the return fare for all senior officials to Montreal and St. John's and to other places for Christmas? HON. J. C. CROSBIE (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): Mr.

Speaker, I do not know if there is such a policy or there is not such a policy. I am Chairman of the Board of Directors of the company and the management, that decides management matters. If there is such a policy I can see that it would be quite a sensible policy that senior officers of the company, if their way is paid out and back over Christmastime, there would be nothing unusual. That, in fact, I think, would be an excellent idea. We want to attract the best kind of people up there we can. I might say also, Mr.

Speaker, that the management at Labrador Linerboard in Labrador this year, the new manager has vastly improved the operation up there. We are delighted with his work. I really hope that he is getting a trip out and back paid for by the company. In the meantime, I will just check and see if that is the policy. It is the policy to pay the way in and out of men who work there and stay for three months. I can assure the honourable members of this House that the manager has been in there now for a lot more than three months. He has done tremendous work. I hope he is getting such a benefit from the company.

In the meantime, I will check and see just what the policy is. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Finance, Sir, will check to see if this policy will apply to all other ~overnment employees in Labrador? 8211

December 16, 1974 Tape 2140 PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: Do not be so childish! AN HON. MEMBER: Send them out for Christmas shopping. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Hon. Minister of Finance. HON. H. R. V. EARLE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance will check very thoroughly with his colleague, who is the Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Linerboard Mill. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheriea is awfullv concerned that the trawler fleet may not sail after Christmas.

Would the minister care to indicate to the House what action his govermnent are taking to try and bring the parties in this dispute together so that the trawler fleet will sail after Christmas? If the minister is so concerned what are the government doing about it? MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have no objection to answering that question but I thought that everybody in the province knew what was being done about it. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE : Certainly there has been enough in the papers in the last few weeks. Mr.

Jamieson was just down here last Thursday and Friday and he was questioned on it. I have been questioned on it. What is happening, Mr. Speaker, is what this House has already been told. l'he Government of Canada have appointed a task force to look into what assistance should be given the industry. That task force is headed by Mr.

Fern Doucette, the Chairman of the Fresh Fish Marketing Board in Manitoba, a very capable individual. the province has appointed five or six people tn reoresent us on our end of that task forceJ the federal task force has reported to the minister , the Minister of Fisheries of Canada has made a submission to the cabinet. I understand this very day a cabinet committee is examining the submission and the documentation that goes with it. They are making recommendations as to some form of assistance for an interim period from now until, I believe, 8212

December 16, 1974 Tape 2140 PK - 3 the end of March or the end of April, a.ssistance that they will reco1DDD11end for the fishing industry on the East Coast of Canada not just for Newfoundland because the problem is one that effects the whole East Coast of Canada. They were hoping and expecting that the cabinet's decision would be made this week. We will then have to go to the cabinet.

When they are ready to let the public know what the assistance is in the industry, know they will pre­ sumably at the end of this week or early next week, then the industry here in Newfoundland who are already sitting down, I believe, they had a meeting today with Mr. Cashin and his representative, will presumably sit down with them again to discuss what monetary offer they can make the union representing the trawler fishermen in light of what assistance they will get from the Government of Canada or from us, when they have that information.

We are in contact constantly with the industry, with the federal government. I have not been talking to Mr. Cash1n for a week or so since we at the moment have nothing to talk about. The government are anxious,of course, and hoping that this matter can be resolved. It will depend on the attitude of the employers and the attitude of the union and what assistance is forthcoming from the Government of Canada or from ourselves. In the meantime, apart from this assistance for an interim period 8213

December 16, 1974 Tape No. 2141 NM - 1 both governments would be continuing to develop an overall plan of assistance to the industry, offshore and inshore, over January, February and March.

It will take probably two or three months and when it is decided what form of long term assistance there will be and what the conditions will be,and in the meantime we will be looking at the structure of the industry and such questions as to whether or not there should be some change in marketing practices, whether or not a dozen other things should be done then the long term progra11DDe will be announced, between the Government of Canada and ourselves as to what is ~oing to be done on the longer haul since this problem will not be resolved just in the next few months. So I think that brings us up to date, Mr.

Chairman. The situation is being kept in touch with every day. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Transportation and Communications could inform the House if his department has received any complaints from the Community of St. Bernard's, complaints about the access road, it has been reconstructed to St. Bernard's. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Co1D111unications. MR. ROUSSEAU: I believe I received a letter last week. I cannot be certain because we received a number of letters but I will certainly undertake to check it out for the member. MR.

NEARY: Also, could he see what action is being taken on any complaints he may have had. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Finance could tell the House whether or not he has received any objections or any representations from various government departments, either orally or in writing, about the Cabinet directive that Christmas parties in government offices will only be permitted between the hours of 4:00 P.M. and 7:00 P.M. on Christmas Eve. MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

The Chair considers it to be a question that does not require an urgent answer, however if the Minister of Finance wishes to answer it I shall permit him to. 8214

December 16, 1974 Tape No. 2141 NM - 2 MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I just want to take the opportunity, seeing it is such a serious question that needs an immediate answer, I would like to inform the honourable member that I have not received one protest either by word of mouth or by letter or by phone call. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a question to the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation, would the minister care to - PREMiER}l)()RES: On the same subject. MR.

NEARY: No, not on the same subject, this is a more serious matter, would the minister care to elaborate on the public statements that he has already made concerning the health problem over at Exon House and if it is correct that the minister's department intends to hire another twenty cleaners at Exon Rouse? MR. DOYLE: Yes, that is correct, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: What is correct? That was two questions, doubled barrelled question. Well would the minister care to tell us what went wrong at Exon House? What created the problems at Exon Rouse? There had to be an investigation into the health conditions over there?

MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, one of the matters arising out of the recent strike at Exon Rouse was the fact that it came to our attention that the cleaning facilities at the institution were not all that they could be desired to be. We have therefore decided to employ our own cleaning staff on a permanent basis rather than use the services of cleaning companies and this is all that is going on right now. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Finance could inform the House if the government has completed its borrowint for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to advise the House that the most recent issue of this province was taken up in a record time. It was a most successful bond issue at very favourable rates under today's conditions and this normally completes our requirements for the balance of this year. 8215

December 16, 1974 Tape No. 2141 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, March 1972, the honourable the Premier will remember that his government undertqok to conduct a study - MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is entftled to ask a question but not to prefi.i: it with a

preamble of statements or speeches no matter how short. AN HON. ~ffl!ER: Inaudible. MR. MARSHALL: I am not through with the point of order yet, Mr. Speaker. That is very clear by the rules of Beauchesne and in our S-tanding Orders. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, 8216

December 16, 1974 Tape 2142 PK - 1 anybody who is the least bit familiar with the Premier's performances, the Premier knows that he needs to be reminded of what he said or done. It may have been one of his bad days. I suggest that my colleague is well within the rules. He is not being argumentative. He is merely pointing out the context in which his question is asked. MR. MOORES: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker, on what the Leader of the Opposition said,"The conduct of a Premier is something that he really will never e:iroer:l.ence. " son HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order,please! AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The question period and those honourable members asking questions are supposei to keep their questions very precise. The honourable Member for Rell Island was entering into a longer

preamble than perhaps was necessary. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, is the Hon. Premier aware that in March 1972 his government co11D11itted themselves to conducting a study of the needs of members of the opposition with regard to office accommodations, staff and related matters? MR. MOORES: ~r. Speaker, I am also aware that at that same time we found out that we were in need of a stable government which we got and a reduction in the opposition which we also got. MR. F. ROWE: Well what a comparison! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Hon. Premier care to table the study that his administration undertook? MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, what I would be prepared to do if we had the space in this building is allocate more space to the opposition I think they need it . I think most government departments in this building need more space. It is one of critical concern. It is one that is badly required. It is one that shows a lack of planning in the past but 8217

December 16, 1974 Tape 2142 PK - 2 hopefully, Sir, we will have enough office space in a year or so's time. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, can I take it from the - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, can I take it from the Premier's answer then that there will be an extension of Confederation Building or there will be some alternative arrangements made? Will the Confederation Building be expanded in the foreseeable future? MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, as the honourable member well knows that is not the olan at the present time.

The plan is that we get additional office space for government departments. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the n]an~ of the government are, so the Premier is wrong there. I am trying to find out, Would the Premier care to be a little more specific and tell us what the plans are for additional office space. MR. MOORES: We will undertake if the House gives unanimous approval, Mr. Speaker, to build an appropriate adjunct porch, outhouse for the honourable Member for Bell Island if that is what he requires. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKE:R: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps, Sir, this question may be more appropriate for the Premier to answer. Around the same time is the Premier aware,in March 1972, that his administration committed themselves to a short-term programme on a long-term bas:l.s to attack unemployment in this provincet Would the Premier care to tell us what he has done about that matter? MR. MOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, immediately after the next election we will do the best we can for the honourable member. The fact is, Sir, that unemployment as the honourable member well knows in North America today and in Canada is one of great concern, as is inflation.

We are talking here about something that has international ramifications, 8218

December 16, 1974 Tape 2142 PK - 3 I am not talking just federal ramifications. We are going through what is basically a very difficult time, Sir, in the Western World. The honourable Member for Bell Island is somewhat isolated, blinkered, parochial and whatever, provincial in his outlook. The fact is, Sir, that this government are doing whatever possible to alleviate the unemployment problem. We have a situation because of the mismanagement of so many yearB where the industrial base of this province is not developed properly.

The fact is we are doing our best to bring it into shape through Gull Island offshore oiJ.,where we have taken a stand, other people in this House have not, and many other aspects, Sir, that we hope to improve the economy of this province to be as good as any in Canada. MR. NEARY: My are we not in a great mood today! MR. MOORES: More or less! MR.

NEARY: I wonder in connectjon with the same matter if the Premier will indicate to the House how many advisory groups, that is; town councils, development committees and so forth, development associations, have been set up to advise the government on their plan for provincial development, as indicated in the Throne Speech of March 1972? MR. MOORES: All of them who are interested, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: We are not getting very far today, Sir. I wonder if the Minister of Finance.and the President of Treasury Board, Mr. Speaker, would indicate to the House - AN HON. MEMBER: He is the President. MR.

NEARY: The Minister of Finance is legally the PreEident of Treasury Board, legally, Sir, until we change _the Act, the Minister is still the President of Treasury Board - would he indicate to the House if there is any foundation at all to the reports that there has been a freeze placed on hiring additional civil servants? That a directive has gone out from the minister's department, putting a freeze on any future hiring? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Finance. HON. H. R. V. EARLE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): The simple answer to that, Mr. Speaker, is "No." 8219

December 16, 1974 Tape 2142 PK - 4 MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: So there is still hope until after the next election. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could get back to the Minister of Health there for a second. I am 8220

December 16, 1974. Tape 2143 RH - 1 not going to ask the minister about the mumps, Sir. I wonder if the minister could bring us up to date on the matter of the Regional Hospital for the Clarenville area, Just what is happening in that rega:i;:d? DR. A. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, as you very well know there was a public meeting recently at which was presented a report of the consul tan ts. We have now completed the study on the various elements which will conmri~P. thP 118 ~ed hospital at Clarvenville and the plans are proceeding accordingly.

The Chamber.-of Commerce have recently received a full report which was reported throughout the district there. I do not think there is anything further to be added at this particular point. MR. J. CROSBIE : Mr. Speaker, can I ask the Leader of the Opposition a question. Did he receive a letter from Prime Minister Trudeau to the same tenor with the sa!Tle attention as Mr. J.R. Smallwood did or has he not received such a letter? MR, SPEAKER: ~IR. ROBERTS: Order, please! Order, please! I feel that the - It is not a bad letter at all, Mr. Speaker. MR • SPEAKER: Order, please!

The idea of the Question period is for honourable members to ask questions of the ministers and I f~el not vice versa. MR. NEARY: ?fr. Speaker, - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation could inform the honourable House just what his department's policy is, Sir, concerning sending representatives from Newfoundland to the games that are going to be held next year in Lethbridge, Alberta?

Are the people who will participate in these games, selected by the minister's department or have they farmed out the responsibility for picking out these people who will attend the summer games in Lethbridge? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. T. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, the competitors who will represent Newfoundland in the 1975 Canada Winter Games in Alberta next February are in the process of bein11: selected by the various provincial bodies of the particular sport which 8221

December 16, 1974. Tape 2143 RH - 2 they represent. This is the way that the sport bodies want it done and this is the way it has been done over the years. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Does the minister's department have any control whatsoever over who will be selected to at ten cl, I thought it wa~ summer games, winter games, I am sorry, in Lethbridge? I presume it is the minister's department which is paying the expenses of these people. Well then, does the minister have any control at all? MR. DOYLE: The honourable member has asked two or three questions there.

In the first instance the expenses for the athletes from all provinces are paid by the Federal Government, In the second case, the second question, to the best of my knowledge the deparllllent has no input whatsoever in who goes to the games. As I just said, the representatives are selected by the provincial organization of the sport which they are to represent. 11R. NEARY: ------ Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could tell the House if there are any char~es of discrimination in the selection of people who will participate in the winter games? What recourse do these individuals have?

Can they apoeal~ Can they make an appeal? Could the minister tell the House how they can appeal any charges of discrimination? MR. DOYLE: ---- -- ;-1r. Speaker, I have no jurisdiction to answer that question at all. All I can say is what I have said twice that these choices are made by the provinci;,l bodies concerned and it is of no concern to my department, MR •• ~EARY: \·iell, Mr. Speaker, is the minister aware that the school girls curling team on Bell Island wi1ich will be attending these winter games, is the minister aware tnat they are not permitted to take their coach along with them? lnaudible.

Their coach. c-o-a-c-h coach. MR. DOYLE: '.-1r. Speaker, all I can do is say what I have said three times. These dedsions are all made hy the provincial bodies representing the sports. They have nothing to do with our deoartment whatsoever. If he has any complaints he should bring they to the Provincial Curlin~ Association. 'IR. MOORES: Has the member asked them? - - -- 8222

December 16, 1974 Tape 2144 IB-1 MR. NEARY: Yes, I have. Mr. Speaker, is - MR. MOORES: Get a reply~ MR. NEARY: I was bounced back to the minister. That is why I am asking questions. So, obviously, Mr. Speaker, we are getting the run around on this but I will find out. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I can get back to my congenial friend over there, the Minister of Public Works. I would like to ask the minister if the residences for professors at Memorial University comes under the minister's jurisdiction or are they under the control of the university. DR. FARRELL: Mr.

Speaker, the answer to that question,as far as I know they are under the control of the university but I will check it out. I am pretty certain they are under university control. MR. NEARY: I would like for the minister to check it out, Mr. Speaker. If the minister could find out for me what happened to the thirty Memorial University residences that were put up for sale some time ago, if tenders were called, if they were offered for sale to the occupants, if there were sweetheart prices or just what the story is on these residences. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Manpower down here could bring us up to date on how many rec011DD.endations of the Cohen Royal C011Dnission on Labour have been implemented to date? _llON. E. MAYNARD (MINISTER OF MANPOWER AND INDUSTI.IAL RELATIONS) : None of the recommendations have been implemented to date because, as the honourable gentleman is well aware, the implementation of the Cohen recolllllendations will require legislation. The legislation is now being drafted and will be brought before the next session of the House of Assembly, hopefully, sometime in the early part of 1975. MR.

SPEAKER: The question period has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave of the House, Sir, in accordance with Standing Order No. 23 that the regular business of the House be adjourned to discuss a definite matter of public importance, namely, 8223

December 16, 1974 Tape 2144 IB-2 Mr. Speaker, the state of our province and our people, consumed as they are this day by feelings of uncertainty and growing despair. Mr. Speaker, the apprehensions of our people arise out of our failure yet in this House to deal with the matters which are of grave and urgent concern to them, matters which are uppermost in the minds of the people represented ~y all of us here, Sir, but matters which have been brushed aside at every attempt made over the past three weeks to introduce them. Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

First of all it is obviously not a matter of public importance re~uiring immediate debate but the honourable member when he moves adjournment under this Standing Order has to get up and state in one simple sentence, in a very few words, the nature and the subject matter for which he wishes the business of the House to be adjourned. Then Your Honour determines whether this subject matter is adequate to warrant the adjournment of the House and then the honourable member is allowed to go on.

The honourable gentleman is getting in the habit of getting up and making a speech with his motion which he is not allowed to do. MR. ROBERTS: There is nothing in either the rules or the precedent that says anything abcut the marshal! doctrine of one single sentence or whatever words he used. This House does not operate under Marshall Law, Sir, it operates under the rules of the House of Assembly and the 23 (

b) to which I would refer Your Honour, Sir, says simply that the member desiring to make such a motion rises in his place, asks leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing the matter of urgent public importance and states the matter. That is all my colleague has been doing. If the honourable gentleman does not like it, I invite him to leave the House . The rules are clear. MR. SPEAKER Order, please! Before the honourable Minister without Portfolio rose, I was about to rise and express some wonder as to just what the matter of urgent public importance was. The honourable member for Bell Island 8224

December 16, 1974 Tape 2144 baa been kind enough to give me a copy of his motion; MR. NEARY: Inaudible, IB-3 MR. SPEAKER.: U the honourable memb.er for Be.11 Island will let me continue, the honourable member for B.ell Island in his motion, get.ting down ta the latter part of it, ;ln fact the last line or two, states two or three problems which he feels the House should debate. Lo.oking at the thing, th.e three problems are topics of which motions were ruled out on before. I consider his motion, as such, to be out of order. MR, NEARY: Mr. Speaker, do I get 8225

December 16, 1974 Tape No. 2145 NM - 1 a chance to finish my motion. AN HON. MEMBER: No, it is out of order. MR. NEARY: I gave Your Honour the courtesy because the page came and asked me if I had a copy, but Your Honour is not supposed to have any idea what my motion is. I did Your Honour the courtesy of sending a copy up to Your Honour. For the information of members of the honourable House, Sir - MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. NEARY: I am on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I have ruled the motion out of order. MR. NEARY: Is this a dictatorship we are running here, Sir?

MR, SPEAKER: Order please: AN HON. MEMBER: Name him, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Yes name him, I am not finished my motion yet. AN HON. MEMBER: Name him. MR. SPEAKER: I am sure honourable members are aware that it is within the jurisdiction of any Speaker to rule any motion that he feels such, out of order. MR. NEARY: Your Honour was ruling on a point of order, Sir, not on my motion. MR. ROBERTS: Then Your Honour surely is governed by the rules. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, do I finish the motion? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I move that under Order number 23, Sir, that the regular order of business of the House. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Your Honour has made a ruling, the honourable member for Bell Island obviously does not care to abide by Your Honour's ruling, his recourse is to appeal Your Honour's ruling if he so desires, if he does not he ought to be very careful before he starts challenging Your Honour's rulings. MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable member for Bell Island has another motion apart from the one which we just discussed, I would be willing to listen to it. 8226

December 16, 1974 Tape No. 2145 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, Sir, before Your Honour ruled on the point of order that was raised by the Minister without Portfolio, the page came and asked me for a copy of my motion, I did Your Honour the courtesy of sending him up a copy which I did not have to do, then Your Honour ruled before I had a chance to finish the motion, Sir. That is not parliamentary, Sir, it is not democratic. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! That matter has been dealt with. The honourable member's motion has been ruled out of order. If he has another one I will hear it.

ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Motion 1, Redistribution Bill, I think the debate was adjourned last day by the honourable member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, how much time remains for me, Sir? I will check for the honourable member and inform him. Well, Mr. Speaker, our suggestions, although they have been ruled out of order or voted against as amendments, we certainly have offered a number of clear alternatives to the butcher job that the Premier had the face to bring into the House under the cloak of a resolution. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: Considerable, yes.

Oh he is back, he is smiling again, Mr. Speaker. He got over the sulk session he had on Friday. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Order please! MR. SIMMONS: The school boy is over the sulk session. He is back. He is back in all his grin. MK. SPEAKER: Order please! I remind the honourable member for Hermitage in speaking to a particular motion he is certainly not being relevant at all. MR. S!MM)NS: Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to be relevant but if I can - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: And he does have the right to be heard in silence. The honourable member for Hermitage has twenty-five minutes left. MR.

SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, in the last couple of weeks during which we have been involved in this debate, we have yet to hear one single word of defence 8227

December 16, 1974 tape No. 2145 NM - 3 for the government's resolution or any rationale for it. Now the Premier when he spoke at th.e beginning of this debate did give one of his most long winded and at the same time,by far,his worse speech on any occasion. He touched somewhat on community of interest. I am not sure he knows what it means, indeed I will rephrase that, I am pretty well sure he does not know what he meant when he talked about community of interest.

How we can take the Baie Verte - White Bay lll()nstrosity and rationalize that in terms of community of interest, or how anybody on that side of the House can do so, Mr. Speaker, is beyond me. Of those who have yet spoken, nobody <in the government side has addressed himself to the question of the Baie Verte - White Bay seat. the Eagle River seat or the worse monstrosity of all in some respects, that Harbour Main - Bell I.sland seat.

Well I can see th.e reasons for it, I have been able to sit here and watch the smirks and all that but nobody bas bothered to stand up and tell us what the real reason was for that particular district. I would love to hear that from the Minister of Industrial Development. I believe he knows better than anybody else. MR. NEARY: He will f:lnd out in the next election. MR. S~ONS: Nobody, Mr. Speaker, on the government side of tne House has bothered to give us any rationale for this resolution 8228

December 16, 1974 Tape 2146 PK.:. 1 for the kind of butcher job that they did on the commission report. All we heard Friday from the court jester in the Moores Administration, the Member for St. John's Centre, quite - MR. MURPHY: A lovely speech! A lovely speech! MR. SIMMONS: Entertaining. A beautiful speech, Mr. Speaker, as lovely goes. A beautiful speech, nothing to do with the subject at hand though. Nothing that would help ease the pain for the Minister of Justice o~er there who must have really en.1oved the naJ?e over the weekend, in "T.he Evening Telegram", it sums it all up.

I have to •·congratulate the reporter publicly, Mr. Mccurdy, "Hickman's words back to haunt Tories." How is he going to live with it, Mr. Speaker? How is he going to live with it? The promise that the report of the commission would be brought here intact, unvarnished, unchanged these are his words, Mr. Speaker, "Untarnished, unchanged," great words. ls he going to stand by them? Is the Minister of Justice going to stand by them? Is•he going to get up now and tell us whv he h~d a cha~ge of heart? Or was he backed into a corner, Mr. Spaeker? Did he have to compromise the principles he stood for?

Has he suddenly changed his tack and his mind and his heart? Where does he stand now, Mr. Speaker? Was there some kind of an agreement behind the scenes that he would remain silent, that he would bite his lip on this one as he has being doing rather conspicuously during the past couple of weeks? Or will he now, this afternoon, get up and tell us where the wisdom is in the Premier's resolution? Tell µs why he was wrong.

There is nothing wrong with a man admitting he is wrong but when a man just sits there and will not address himself.to the situation, will not tell us what was so wrong with his thinking a year and a-half ago, will not let us in on the great secret behind the Premier's resolution, I say that is cowardly, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. SIMMONS: I say the Minister of Justice is capable of something better than that. I would invite him when I am through to sit down and tell us how he could live with this particular statement, this 8229

December 16, 1974 Tape 2146 PK - 2 commitment that no responsible minister would tolerate any change in any report that comes from the commission. No responsible minister would tolerate anv change whether he was - he has gone further than I would have gone in making a statement like that. I could understand some peripheral change, some change as long as it were not a change in substance but a change in thirty-one of the fifty-one districts, Mr. Speaker, h~, can he reconcile that with his statement of a year and a-half ago? MR. NEARY: No wonder he is having prayer brealcfast. MR.

SIMMONS: We can only assume AN HON. !EMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, I am not a hypocrit~ . I go to church every Sunday I do not ,have to go down and pay five dollars to pray. MR. SL'1MONS: MR. ROBERTS: I do not know where that puts me but Inaudible. MR . SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I can only assume too that - I will let my colleagues the Member for Bell Island and the Member for White Bay North fight out the merit~ of going to prayer breakfast or otherwise. I was there and enjoyed seeing the Minister of Justice there playing his full role. MR. NEARY: Rolling his eyes heavenward no doubt. MR.

SD!MONS: Re was probably, Mr. Speaker, looking for some escape from the words of a year and a-half ago. I would say, Mr. Speaker, there is only one escape for him and that is to get up and hare his soul this afternoon and tell us why he changed his mind or tell us why he was forced or how he was forced into making these statements in the first place. But in the absence of some explanation, Mr. Speaker, we can only assume that he was speaking for himself and for the government when he said that "No responsible minister would tolerate any change at all." Mr.

Speaker, these are fighting words. these are words of commitment from a man who knows what he is talking about. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 8230

December 16, 1974 Tape 2146 PK - 3 MR. SIMMONS: What now, Mr. Speaker, a year and a-half later? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: We tried J~at, this afternoon. MR. SIMMONS: We tried that, Mr. Speaker, if they want to talk about the business of the country - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: If they want to talk about the issues of fishery and housing and unemployment, Mr. Speaker, we are willing to do it. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: Adjourn the House and we will discuss the high cost of living. Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, our filibustering as the Member for Placentia West calls it, is a filibustering which is designed to get some of these people up on their feet and see if they will explain what is - It is certainly unexplainable in our terms, we ca~ot find any reason for it, perhaps they have some ceasons. Why are they keeping it to themselves, Mr. Speaker? MR. BARRY: I said it all out for them. MR. SIMMONS: He said it all out - Mr. Speaker, he talked about Placentia West and that was the extent of his entire contribution so far in this session of the House. MR. BARRY: MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMONS: MR. Fi ROWF: say about that?

Inaudible. I thought Ambrose Peddle •••• Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, woula "The Evening Telegram" have something to MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, did you hear that nonsense about the nine new ombudsmen. How can he explain that in terms of St. Barbe North where they are going to have - St. Barbe is it, it will be called where they are going to have a bigger district than they have now? How can he explain that in terms of Labrador? MR. F. ROWE: The Straits of Belle Isle. MR.

SIMMONS: How can vou explain it in terms of the Straits of Belle Isle, Baie Verte-White Bay where they are going to have several thousands more voters than they have now. A couple of thousand more 8231

December 16, 1974 than the average for the province. plus in Baie Verte - 8232 Tape 2146 PK - 4 They are going to have 12,000

,. December 16, 1974. Tape 2147 RH - 1 White Bay and 8,000 in Grand Falls, ombudsman. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: No, we do not agree with everything "Wick" says. Mr. Speaker, the only encourag:l.ng note of course in this whole gerrymandering job which lacks any other plausibility, the only encouraging note for us is that it is an obvious sign that the boys on the other side are really running scared, Mr. Speaker, really running scared. Mr. ~1cCurdy has the answer. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Who? MR. SIMMONS: The "Evening Telegram". MR. ROWE: The son of the Minister of Finance - Remember Dr. McCurdy?

MR. NEARY: The Minister of Fisheries knows who he is. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the answer is here and I think it is recommended reading really for the Premier. They got together and they said, ''Look, this St. Barbe Coast, this :forth.em Peninsula is Liberal anyway. Let us put them all in together." Part of the White Bay North seat, part of the Labrador South seat where they really took a trouncing in that by-election, }Ir. Speaker, I would say it is almost a vengeance movement.

It is almost an item of vengeance for the government to get at that Labrador South crowd down there for what they did to them, 100 plus voters, Mr. Speaker. "So we will lump them in with Liberal White Bay North and Liberal St. Barbe North and Labrador South. We will put them all in together." The old gerrymanderinr tactic. Now what do we do in Baie Verte-White Bay? The same thing. AN HONOURABLE ME.'IJ'ER: Inaudible. ~. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. SIMMONS: The same thing, Mr.

Speaker. ''We will put the Liberal part of White Bay South in with Liberal White Bay North and we will call it Baie Verte­ Whi te Bay." Down in Harbour Main-Bell Island, of course, the explanation is so simple, I would not undermine the intelligence of you Mr. Speaker, or those opposite by even bothering to explain it. MR. NEARY: They are trying to do a hatchet job. MR. SI"!MONS: A hatchet job, Mr. Speaker, of the first order. PREMIER MOORES : Inaudible. 8233

Dece mber 16, 1974 . Tape 2147 RH - 2 '·!R. SI'1:-t1..lllS: ~r. Speaker, I cannot help it ~r. Speaker, I cannot help it if the Premier is in a bad mood. I do not intend to entertain him. He had a bad weekend. He has had a had mon t'l. He gave a bad speech in the House of Assembly three weeks ago, by far his worst one. He had a had time down in Bos ton. He has had a bad time all fall. ~R. SPEAKER: Order, olease: •-m. Sl'-11!0,~S: I cannot he responsible for that, ~tr. Speaker. '-'P. • SPEJ\KER : Order, please! The honourable Member for Hermitap,e is not relevant. MR .

ROBER'YS : The Premier hacl a very bad time in St. Mary's hall. '1R. SL'-!MQi,/S: "Ir. Speaker, l had a very good time at St. Mary's hall. The Premier watched it by television. He should have been there, Mr. Speaker, tremendous time • }Ill. SPEAKt.R: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the one bit of encouragement for us here on this side in this resolution is that it is an admission by the government that they are running scared.

They have to get away from the pious words of the Minister of Justice a year and a half ago, all the commitments that there would not he a change in the proposals of the report would be kept intact, unvarnished, unchanged and they come in with this gerrymandered butcher job. Thirty-one of the fifty-one districts - why, "Ir. Speaker, why; - Because they did not believe what they were saying a year and a half ago? Not particularly but because the circumstances have chanp,ed in their opinion and now the over­ riding item on the agenda is "Get yourself re-elected".

So somehow from some mistaken terms of reference they sit down with a oencil and they draw this, they think , to their own liking. Well they can draw that map, "Ir. Speaker, how they want. They can talk all they want about communities of interest, at the same time completely ignoring the geography of the country, the accessibility of various parts of the country, putting Roddickton in with Baie Verte although they are 400 miles in distance from each other. They can do all that just as they want, "Ir. Speaker 1 they will get their answer when the next election comes. It is an answer ti1ey are fearing already, Mr.

Speaker. It is a mockery of the first order, 8234

December 16, 1974 Tape 2148 IB-1 a monstresity, the like of which Newfoundland has never seen in terms of redistribution or gercymandering. This is the same crowd, Mr. Speaker, who ~ave promises, who raised the hopes of people that they were going to be a new breed, they were going to do things differently. None of this gerrymandering, Mr. Speaker. They were going to do it all in organized fashion, with independent methods, getting in an independent commission. This is the same crowd, Mr. Speaker, who were going to be the salvation in the rural parts of Newfoundland. We all know what happened to that programme.

If ever there was a complete flop, it is the Rural Development Programme with this government. We all know how they were going to be the salvation of the fishery. There were going to be more trawlers in this country than you could shake a stick at. Every year, Mr. Speaker, promises, promises, promises about trawlers in Harbour Breton and other parts of this province. The Premier would not want me to talk about it because it is an embarassing reminder for him, Mr. Speaker. If we bad all the trawlers he promised for Harbour Breton, you would not get them all in the harbour down there : MR.

NEARY: You would b~ able to walk across the harbour on their spars. MR. SIMMONS: These are the champions of tendering, Mr. Speaker. We have seen that one go down the drain. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! We have seen how they botched that as well. Order, please! Two or three times now in the past ten minutes I have had to remind the honourable member for Hermitage that he is not being relevant to the motion. If he continues being irrelevant, I shall have to ask him to take his seat and recognize somebody else. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: There is always the consolation, Mr.

Speaker, that the rules apply equally to all. I was coming to my point, Mr. Speaker, perhaps rather slowly. 8235

December 16, 1974 Tape 2148 IB-2 I was about to say that it is not surprising that the people of Newfoundland are being given the shaft on this redistribution thing, It is only par for the course, for an ~utfit that has given people the shaft on rural development, en the fishery, the trawler programme, public tendering, it is all par to the same, Mr. Speaker. In those terms we can understand it because this is par for the course for this outfit, Mr. Speaker. This is the way they operate. They feel no loyalty to live up to a word that they promised, a public commitment they gave a couple of years ago.

Every day they invent the terms of reference for that particular day. Tomorrow they forget the rules they operated by yesterday or promised they would operate by tomorrow. That is the way they operate, Mr. Speaker. How can you expect any different. How can you expect any better from a government that has no loyalty to anything except to itself, no loyalty even to its words of a month or six months or eighteen months ago. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, they come to their senses on this one if for no other reason than to bail out a very embarassing Minister of Justice who stood and gave what he thought was the government's word eighteen months ago. What are they doing now, Mr. Speaker? They are pulling the rug out from under him, completely. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker - he has only two or three courses of action at this point in time - either stand in his place and tell us why he was all wronf a year and a half ago or tell us why, though he thought he was doing the right thing then, why he now realizes this is a better course of action, why he has seen the light, how he has seen the light. Let him do that or let him do the other honourable thing, Mr. Speaker. If he does not subscribe to this butcher job - knowing the man as I do, I cannot see for one second how he does- I think I understand what he stands for.

He has always been in my mind a man of considerable principle and I do not think he subscribes to this ld.nd of thing. It is one of the things he abhorred in many, many conversations with me. Yet, by his silence, I can only assume, Mr. Speaker, that somehow he agrees with what is going on. I hope I am wrong in that assumption and I hope 8236

·,I December 16, 1974 Tape 2148 IB-3 he will stand in his place and either deny it or else do the honourable thing and inform the Premier and his colleagues that he cannot go along with this thing, this butcher job, do the honourable thing and resign from the cabinet. Mr. Speaker, I hope before the debate expires that the Minister of Justice will stand up and tell us exactly where he stands on this particular subject. We have been looking forward also, Mr. Speaker, for several days now to hear from the member for St. John's South. If I know that gentleman at all, I know he has very serious qualms on this matter.

I know he is having a very, very uncomfortable time on this. He is also a man whom we know for his principles. We know him for his independence of thought. He is not a man to be railroaded. He is not a man to wait outside the cabinet door to see what the decision is so he can run off and carry it out. He is a man who acts independently, according to his principles. The same, of course, Mr. Speaker, could be said for a number of other men on the government side of the House. I am not suggesting the other people have no pri~ciples. I 31" suggesting though, Mr.

Speaker, that they are treading on a few of their principles if they allow this thing to go through, if they vote for this. I am suggesting, Mr. Speaker, that many of the things they stood for, they articulated about publicly, are going down the drain at this particular time if they allow this 1110tion to pass. What about the member for Labrador West, Mr. Speaker? Is he going to stand by ' 8237

Dece~ber 16, 1974. Tape 2149 RH - l anc let this affron ter~ · , this complete butcher job particularly on Labrador take nlace? Mr. Speaker, another gentleman that we know quite well for his principles is the Xember for Labrador West. Where does he stand on this issue? - Not one solitary word from him, '1r, Speaker, not one word from the ~inister of Justice, not one word from the Member for St. John's South, just to mention three . '1R. NEAR2'.._: The 'finis ter of Justice is so busy - MR. SI'!'-1'0,~S: There are other me!l'bers too, Mr. Speaker, other members, "!r.

Speaker, I could mention by name, by constituency. I shall not at this point in time because of the time limitations on me. I do hope, nr. Speaker, that members on the government side will stand in their place and will tell us where they stand on this issue or how they can reconcile their present position if it is in accordance with the Premier's resolution, if they are ROing to support that resolution, how they can reconcile that position, Mr. Speaker, with the thoughts and words they voiced so many times about how there ought not to be P;errymanclerinp. or the appearance of gerrymandering.

I return just momentarily to a theme I was on last week, that even if this is the best thinp. since creation, '-Ir. Speaker, which I do not particularly think it is, hut even if it is the impression is abroad, Hr. Speaker, that this honourable crowd have sat down and carved the country up to their own liking, to their own advantage. That is the im!)ression, '1r. Speaker. They have taken - Ai~ HOisOURABLC: MEMBER: Who created that false impression? MR. Sl:,WONS: - - Who created it, Hr. Speaker?

The people on the p:overnment side of the House created it hy goinr: through the mockery of a corranission eighteen months ago and tellinP us that it is goinp: to be done by an independent commission. That is who created that impression, Mr. Speaker.

The government in p:oinp: through the mockery of taking the country throup:h, bringinR in a resolution, - ''It is i:i:oing to be done just so, going to get the most respected and competent men in the country and they are goinR to do it and we are going to pass it then ladies and p:en tlemen untarnished, unchanged, intact," - these are the words of the Minister of Justice on behalf of the ROVernment. That is who created that misimpression in answer to the question from the Member for Placentia Hest. That is who created - 8238

December 16, 1974. Tape 2149 RH - 2 MR. SPEAKER: I just want to remind the honourable member that he has five minutes left. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Even if this were the best thing since creation, the impr~ssion is clearly abroad, that the boys are doing things for their own particular advantage. They are scratching their own backs, Mr. Speaker, scratching their own backs. MR. NEARY: In the back rooms. MR. SL'lMONS: Again, not something that is completely foreign to this crowd either, Mr. Speaker, scratching their own backs.

They are good at scratching their own backs because they are getting a lot of practice in it, every day of the week. No, Mr. Speaker, the resolution before the House right now is not the answer. It is far from the answer and I appeal to members on the government side to vote against this resolution. I appeal to them to let principle take priority instead of the party game once in their lives.

Their principles that they stood for for many years as they relate to gerrymandering and fairness and the business of justice not only being done but appearing to be done, these are principles that the Minister of Justice would know a lot about. What is he going to do about them, Mr. Speaker? Is he going to stand silently and be identified with the "aye's" in this resola~ion? Silence is consent, Mr. Speaker, silence is guilt and I do hope - MR. HICKMAN: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: Not a new concept, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Justice says a new concept, no, not a new one but one that obviously in view of the stance he is taking on this or appears to be taking, one that needs to be repeated and reiterated again and again., Not a new position, Mr. Speaker, but one that• he needs to be reminded of apparently. I an prepared to remind him of it as often as necessary until he does come to his senses, the sense that he displayed eighteen months ago when he made that tremendous speech here in the House of Assembly on the subject of the redistribution bill. Mr. Speaker, this resolution is not the answer.

It is far from the answer. The situation we have now with all its gerrymandered districts, the forty-one seats we have now is better than what this resolution provides for. I would rather live 8239

December 16, 1974. Tape 2149 RH - 3 with the forty-one we have now, ~1r. Speaker. They are not fair, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Burgeo burp is back. 'IR. EV.Ai.'IS: Inaudible. ----- MR. SIMMONS: The Bur~eo burp is back. MR.NEARY: He must have come with the snow storm. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! 8240

December 16, 1974. Tape 2150 RH - 1 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, what a tremendous three weeks we had here. What a tremendous three weeks we had here without him. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: No, some of the people are not satisfied. The people in Burgeo La Poile are not very satisfied,are not very satisfied, I can tell you that. We are going to fix that after the nex:t election. MR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, as unsatisfac~ory - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: As unsatisfactory as it is, Mr_. Sneaker. the present distribution of seats - MR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR.

SIMMONS: I hope, Mr. Speaker, that these delays - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the present distribution as unsatisfactory as it is is considerably much better than the redistribution being proposed in the Premier'" resolution. With that in mind, Mr. Speaker, I would like to move an amendment to the resolution - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: I can if I want to. MR. MURPHY: Seconded by whom? MR. SIMMONS: Never mind about that. Well, let me move the resolution and we will see. Mr. Speaker, do I have the floor? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to move an amendment to delete the

schedule and replace it with the descriptions of forty-one districts as set out in Section (4) of the House of Assembly Act,

chapter 159 of the revised Statutes of Newfoundland, 1970. I take pleasure in movin~ the amendment seconded by the member for St. John's North. MR. MARSHALL: Could we heve that amendment, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Could I have a copy of the amendment, please? Order, please! My Deputy Speaker is not here. I would like to recess the House for five minutes to look at this amendment. The House recessed for five minutes. 8241

December 16, 1974. Tape 2150 RI! - 2 ,ill.. SPEAKER: Onler, please! I have looked at the amendment. I have some thoughts on it perhaps but I a.m willing to hear an argument from either side if anybody wishes to rise on a point of order. MR. W • }!ARSHALL: --- ---- The only thing is, :rvlr. Speaker, as I understand the resolution it is to return the representation back to forty-one districts and forty-two members, I believe. At the time I had a bit of difficulty hearing it because of the, this is the gist of it.

Your Honour, I think we have already tackled this point before and to so do would negate completely the resolution because the resolution is not under debate. The numbers of seats have heen fifty-one as set domi by the enabling legislation that constituted the c·.Jmmittee and to allow an .'t"'<"nnment such as this would really negate the main motion and as such is out of order by virtue - I can g:ive Your Honour the quo tat ion in Beauchesne but I think it is taken as given that an amendment which negates the main motion is out of order as you will see from the reference in Beauchesne.

Consequently I think it is obviously out of order as such. !'fil · E. ROBERTS: ~r. Soeaker, I submit that the amendment is in order. It is common ground that an amendment which achieves a purpose that could be achieved bv a negative vote against a motion or resolution is out of order. I think that is the way actually it is put in the books. This amendment, the purnose of the motion though, Mr. Speaker, is to accept the report of the committee with alterations or with some alteration, I forget the precise wording but that is the operative part of the motion, the resolution before the Chair now.

What my colleague, the gentleman from Hermitage, is suggesting by means of his amendment is a different set of alterations than the alterations wh.ich were suggested in the resolution proposed by the Premier. I suggest therefore that that is in order. If I could speak to two other asoects of that point, Sir: The Minister without Portfolio, the gentleman from St. John's East referred to the enabling legislation. Tl1is House, Sir, has not created fifty-one seats.

The bill under which that commission was constituted merely set up a commission with instructions to report back and it did so do and the government have now moved that the 8242

December 16, 1974. Tape 2150 RH - 3 committee's report be accepted with alterations. They propose alterations on the boundaries, th~ resolution as 'fllY colleague suggests p:roposes alterations on the nU111ber of seats and I suggest that is in order. Furthermore, Sir, this anendment is different in substance from the amendment moved earlier by the gentleman from Bonavista North because that would have merely received the co11111lission's report

whereas the amendment now requests t.o add words on to it. So I submit it is clearly in order, Sir, it is an altemative matter. If Your Honour ·wishes I will give the exact citations but the relevant one is Beauchesne and in the other authorities ;May and all the others, llourinot, is siinply that whe-re 8243

December 16, 1974 T·a:pe 2151 PK - 1 an amendment is in order where it purports to-present an alternative solution which would make the main resolution more acceptable to the House. This amendment, Sir, will certainly do that in our eves, so I think, it is in order. MR. BARRY: On a point of order, Just briefly I submit, Mr. Speaker, that the amendment is out of order for two reasons, at least two, there may be others.

(1) It is an amendment proposing a direct negative even though it may be covered up by verbiage, so therefore it is out of order. This is set out in Beauchesne,

Article 202 (12). Aiso, Mr. Speaker, I would submit this is an amendment setting forth a proposition dealing with a matter which is foreign to the proposition involved in the main motion. It is therefore not relevant and cannot be moved, because, Mr. Speaker, the reason it is foreign to the proposition in the main motion is that the main motion is premised on the proposition set out in the Act "That there shall be fifty-one seats." The Act under which the commission was appointed. Now, Mr. Speaker, to accept this amendment would be to make total nonsense out of the resolution as proposed.

Therefore, the amendment is foreign to this resolution. It is not relevant to it,and for that matter, it should be ruled out of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to deal with the points raised by the gentleman for Placentia West. First of all, Sir, this is not the same as a direct negative. The purpose of this amendment could not be achieved by voting against the resolution. The purpose of this amendment is to aporove the resolution with some alterations. A vote against the resolution, Mr.

Speaker, would be to disapprove the report of the commission, the Electoral Boundaries Commission, entirely. Secondly, the second point he made·it being foreign to the main body of the resolution, Sir, is not valid, in my view. The commission were dirP.cted to set up a system of fifty-one electoral districts. They so did. The government then decided to move that 8244

December 16, 1974 Tape 2151 PK - 2 the House accept the report with alterations. The government proposed a certain set ••of alterations, Sir, We are proposing a different set altogether hut they are still alterations to the commission's report. This House, Mr. Speaker, I would remind you,has not said at th;l.s point; ''T.here is a bill that will come before us: It stands on the Order Paper, oresumahlv to that effect. This House has not said that it will have fifty-one seats.

It merely directed, and if Your Honour chooses to look again at the Electoral Boundaries Delimitation Act, 1973, the whole warp and woof of the substance of that Act, all the Act did was to set up the commission and directed them to submit a report. They have done that. The government now propose to accept it with alterations. My colleague and a number of us on this side feel that we should have a different set of alterations. Mi.. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, just very briefly, without belabouring the point. I submit, if you look at Beauchesne,

Article 202 (14) "An amendment which would produce the same result as if the original motion were simply negatived is out of order." Now, Mr. Speaker, I submit, that the issue of the enlargement of the number of seats is fundamental to the entire commission's report. That the resolution that is put to this House is that the House approve the commission's report dealing with fifty-one new seats.

Now if the honourable members do not wish to have fifty-one seats they may reject or the House may reject by vote the resolution as put and that would have the effect of keeping the status quo,which is the subject of this resolution, namely; the forty-two seats. In other words, the same result can be achieved by voting against the main resolution as would be achieved by voting for that amendment and, therefore, by the rules it is out of order. HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR.

SPEAKRR: Perhaps some consultation,I have come to the conclusion that there are two main elements in the resolution (1) to approve the commission's report or (2) approve it with some alterations. The amenrlmPnt as moved 8245

December 16, 1974 Tape 2151 PK - 3 by the honou .rable Member for Hermi t age and seconded by the honourable Member for St. John ' s ~1orth really is a complete reversal of (1~ "'ha t I consider to be one of the two main elements of the resolution and thus it really negatives the main motion and, therefore, I cannot accept the amendment. MR. ROBERTS: ruling please. 8246 Mr. Speaker, "'e feel "'e should appeal Your Honour•~

December 16, 1974 ml. SPF.AKER: Tape 2152 IB-1 The motion is that the Speaker's ruling be sustained. Those in favour "Aye". Those against "Nay". In my opinion the "Ayes" have it. DIVISION: MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order, please! Those in favour of the motion please rise.

The honourable the Premier, the honourable the Minister of Mines and Energy, the honourable the Minister of Industrial Development, the honourable the Minister of Health, the honourable the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, the honourable the Minister of Transportation and Communications, the honourable the Minister of Justice , the honourable Mr. Marshall, the honourable the Minister of Fisheries, the honourable the Minister of Public Works and Services, the honourable the Minister of Finance, the honourable the Minister of Tourism, Mr. Dunphy, Mr. Aylward, Mr. Wells, Mr. Senior, Mr. Wilson, Mr.

Evans, Mr. Morgan and Mr. Howard. Those against the motion please rise. The honourable the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Gillette, Mr. Neary, Mr. Rowe, Mr. Silllmons, Mr. Martin. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not believe there was a member in the Rouse who has not risen. I do not think one is allowed to. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker,on that point of order. I was unaware of the rule. I shall vote to sustain your ruling and I shall amplify it later. MR. SPEAKER: The rule is quite clear. Those in the House when a vote is taken must cast a vote. I declare the motion carried.

If the honourable the Premier speaks now he closes the debate. MR. CARTER: Before the Premier speaks I wish to say a few words on this main motion. Mr. Speaker, the last time I spoke was to the amendment, one of the amendments. This was the amendment, as I recall, to enlarge the House to fifty-two members but yet to accept 8247

December 16, 1974 Tape 2152 IB-2 the report of the commission. I gave notice at the time that I would vote against it and I did vote against the amendment but I also served notice that I would be voting against the main resolution, that is to say if it were unamended. The only acceptable form for the resolution in my - well, there are a couple of acceptable forms. I will go over that later on. I am not at all surprised that the Speaker ruled the previous attempted amendment by the member for Hermitage out of order. In my view, it tended to negate the main motion.

I am not a past master on the rules but it seemed quite obvious to me that it would be ruled out of order. The point I wish to make now is that I feel that the member for Hermitage or any member has a right to make as many amendments as they wish. This strikes me as being an anomalous situation. They had run out of seconders and the member for Hermitage came across the House yesterday - that would be Friday and asked me if I would second this amendment. I looked at it.

I said at the time, "I doubt very much if it will pass but I will certainly second it for you:· I think everyone should have the right to make an amendment. It was on that basis that I seconded it and I am not sorry. I think that it is an anomalous situation if a person, a member of this House cannot make an amendment. The position I am forced to take on this particular resolution, as far as I am concerned, to some extent demonstrates the poverty of the adversary system. Now, I know that at least half of the members on this side of the House are not in favour of this 8248

December 16, 1974. Tape 2153 RH - 1 resolution. I know that. They are very uneasy about it and yet those who have spoken have been practically proselytizing in their fervour to say how good this resolution is. Now this is the House - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CARTER: No, I am not leaking any secrets out of caucus. No, I do not wish to name any names either. Now, their position is simply this. While they are unhappy about certain aspects of this redistribution they prefer the

summary redistribution to none at all and there I must say I am in great sympathy with them. The map that we operate under at present is far from satisfactory and certainly needs to be redistributed, no question about that. However, as I was saying the adversary system that we operate in this House, I think does leave a lot to be desired. The members on the opposite side of the House see everything wrong with the government resolution and the members on the government side are forced to see everything right with it.

This is why the American system seems to have some advantages being founded on those three great principles of compromise, compromise, compromise. Now, again it is not easy to redistribute, it is not easy to redraw the district lines on the map. Even the former Premier in all his power did not dare to try a complete redrawing of the electoral map at any one time but was satisfied to do it piecemeal, did a very bad job, very bad job and I have no sympathy with what he tried to do. In fact I suspect his motives very greatly, and left us with the situation we have now which is far from satisfactory.

But it is not something that is easy to do and I think that no one in this Chamber will seriously dispute that statement. It is extremely hard. Of course there is a tremendous need that redistribution be done equitably and I am very disappointed that it cannot go through unanimously. Any redistribution bill, to redraw the district lines in this House, should in my view go through unanimously or else the opposition should be painted into such a corner that their position is demonstrably illogical. The most embarrassing thing from my point of view is what has happened or is about to happen or may happen to St.

John's North. I cannot sit by and see two districts, two communities in my district, carved in half and I will not stand 8249

December 16, 1974. Tape 2153 RH - 2 by and see that done to them, the community of St. Phillips and the community of Portugal Cove. I have received more phone calls in the last week, ten days than I can count on fingers and toes. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CARTER: Well, the situation down - Now I am completely mistaken. Maybe people do not care where district lines are drawn. Perhaps the Member for St. John's Centre is absolutely right when he says that people in the City of St. John's could not care less whether they are St. John's West or St.

John's Centre or the fact that when they look out their front window they are looking into another district. I do not think there is any way you can carve up a city so that neighbours do not often find themselves in different districts but when it comes to small connnunities there is absolutely no justification as far as I can see for cutting them in half. I am obliged to vote against the resolution. I cannot vote against part of it. The way the Hou~e system is, I have to vote against all or not at all. So I serve notice that I will be votinp; ap,ains t this resolution unless it is amended.

I wish the opposition had come up with an acceptable amendment. In my view, the so rt of amendment I would like to see would be to have a continuing electoral c01mnission, an electoral commission that would sit permanently, that would be composed of a political figures or nonpolitical figures because the people chat I would put in thac commission would be there by virtue of their office and these offices would be high offices that people reach not as a result of political - Who will second it? AN l!0N0UR1'BU: ME'IBER: . Inaudible. - --- ·------- ------ 'lR. CARTER: You will? I should address the Chair, Mr.

Speaker. I am very tempted to. 1 would rather one of the members of the p;overnment, of the administration to move it because that would assure its passage but if this type of amendment were to be brought in then I think it could possibly receive unanimous approval of the House. Then the redistribution 8250

December 16, 1974 Tape 2154 IB-1 could go through, the members would be secure in the knowledge that any anomalies, that any present anomalies, could be changed by mere representation. A permanent boundaries commission could have a permanent secretariat and representation could be made to that secretariat. MR. NEARY: Would their decisions then be binding or could they still gerrymander? MR.

CARTER: That would be a difficult situation because if you make it binding, then you are removing power from the government but I think a prestigious electoral commission, their rec0t1m1endation would be very, very - would carry a great deal of weight. Were it a permanent institution and were its members there by virtue of their office - in other words, you would appoint offices not persons. People who would be there would be there by virtue of their office. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CARTER: Well, the member for Labrador South has said that he would second such a motion.

If he would get in his place, perhaps I might make one. It appears to me I am in as much trouble as I can possibly be. So, I might as well get hanged fer a sheep as a lamb. Quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, I am doing something I believe very deeply in, very, very deeply. I am not doing it lightly or inadvisedly or frivolously. So, I therefore move, Mr. Speaker, that a permanent electoral commission be established. I presume, Mr. Speaker, that I must write this out. It will be very short. Therefore, Mr.

Speaker, this is my amendment, that a permanent electoral commission be established. l!R• SPEAKER: Though I cannot accept the amendment, I understand the member for Labrador South has already spoken to the main motion, so he does not have a right to second the amendment. MR. ROBERTS: Any member who has not spoken, can second it. Crosbie can do it. MR. CROSBIE: Not any more. Now he is in the cabinet. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! John 8251

December 16, 1974 Tape 2154 IB-2 There is no seconder to the amendment, so I cannot accept the amendment. !'!R· CARTER: Mr. Speaker, 1 certa inly accept your rul ing . You are the - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPE.AKER: Order, please ! MR. CARTl!:R: I was merely saying that I accept Mr. Speaker's ruling and I close but I chink it is a pity chat such an idea cannot be adopt ed. MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable Premier speaks now he closes the deba te. MR. MOORES: Unlik e what has gone before, this past three weeks, I will endeavor and intend to be very brief while speaking to the resolution.

The fact is, Hr. Speaker, that this resolution for the first tiDle in electoral history in this province isolates various districts 8252

December 16, 1974 Tape No, 2155 NM - 1 with the periphery of between 8,000 to 12,000 people with I think it is three exceptions, For the first time since anyone has sat in this House, we are looking at a redistribution bill which in effect gives fair representation of one vote one person for the people everywhere in this province. We have heard three weeks of total filibuster based on the arguments of a group of people who were part and parcel to the total abuse of the one vote one person system of years past.

Here we have a group of people all of a sudden getting upset because there is between 8,000 and 12,000 people in a district when those same people sat in the House of Assembly, supported a government where one district had 34,000 and another district 6,000. The hypocrisy, Mr. Speaker, of this particular group at this particular time has to be seen to be believed. The situation is, Sir, that we have seen three weeks of wasted time, wasted time for the people of this province whilst political games are being played by little men. Mr.

Speaker, the member from Hermitage keeps sayinp., "What nonsense!" His judgement once again shows true to form because what nonsense is something he should realize after his experience of the last six weeks. The only thing missing, Mr. Speaker, is his five piece band. It really was, Mr. Speaker, he says that was funny, the fact is, Mr. Speaker, the fact is it was very funny, Mr. Speaker. It was a riot. MR. SIMMONS: Point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Premier as usual is irrelevant, I would ask you to rule on it. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I was - MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, are you going to rule on the point of order?

MR. SPEAKER: Order please! As it has been SP.id many times the rule of relevancy is rather difficult to rule on. I recall mentioning it to the honourable member for Hermitage when he was speaking earlier and I also suggest that the honourable the Premier, indeed any other member, does have the right to be heard in silence. MR. MOORES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: Sit down, sit down and shut up. 8253

December 16, 1974 Tape No. 2155 NM - 2 AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Hermitage did not raise a valid point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. MOORES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. J.N HON. MEMBER: You are crazy boy. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I certainly do not intend to sit here and hear such co111111ents as just came from the honourable member for Hermitage and I would ask him to make an unqualified apology to the Chair, MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I withdraw the co11D11ent and I would now raise a point of order if I may? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Chairman, I have already withdrawn the statement. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Maybe the honourable member for Hermitage misunderstood my request. I did not request him simply to withdraw the statement, I requested him to make an unqualified apology. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I without qualification apologize for saying that I think the ruling was crazy. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! apology. The Chair is not prepared to accept a qualified MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, tell me how to do it. I am saying, Mr. Speaker, that without qualification I apologize for saying that I think your ruling was crazy. MR.

SPEAKER: I will ask the honourable member for Hermitage once again to make it what the Chair considers to be an unqualified apology. If he is not prepared to do so I shall name him. MR. SIMMONS: MR. Speaker, would you tell me the words and I will say them. I say without qualification, Mr. Speaker, without qualification, without qualification, without qualification, I say that I apologize for saying that I think the ruling was crazy. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair is not prepared to accept that from the honourable 8254

December 16, 1974 Tape No. 2155 NM - 3 member for Hermitage and shall name him. MR. S~ONS: Mr. Speaker, tell me what he is p.repared to acceJ)'t? MR. SPEAKER: The Chair is not prepared to put words i11to the mouth of any honourable member and I will name the honourable member for Hermitage, Mr. Roger Sinunons. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I move that the honourable the member for Hermitage be suspended from sitting in the HQuse for the balance of the day. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.: I.s that a debatable motion. MR. SPEAKER: No, i,t is not a debatable motion.

All those in favour of the motion, "aye," those against "nay," the ayes have it. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. Mr. Speaker, can we divide the House please? Me and my colleagues, lie have the right to appeal Your Ho.nour's ruling. MR. SPEAKER: The motion is that the Speaker's r ulin!!: be sus t a ined . t hose in f avour , " aye " those against "nay ," the ayes have i t. AN HON. MEMBER: Divide the House please! MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. 8255

December 16, 1974 Tape 2156 PK - 1 Those in favour of the motion please rise: The Ron. Premier, the Hon. Minister of Industrial Development, the Hon. Minister of Health, the Hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications, the Hon. Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation, the Hon. Minister of Education, the Hon. Minister of Justice, the Hon. Mr. Marshall, the Hon. Minister of Fisheries, the Hon. Minister of Public Works and Services, the Hon. Minister of Finance, the Hon. Minister of Tourism, Mr. Dunphy, Mr. Aylward, Mr. Wells, Mr. Senior, Mr.

Carter, Mr. Wilson, Mr. Young, Mr. Evans, Mr. Morgan, Mr. Howard, Mr. Martin. Those against the motion please rise: The Ron. Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Gillette, Mr. Rowe. The motion is carried. MR. SPEAI<ER: The Hon. the Premier. HON. F. D. MOORES (PREMIER): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, it is. a most unfortunate occurance, Sir, it is too bad that such things happen, as I was saying the excess verbiage that has been used in this House this past three weeks and the waste of time is something that, I think, we can well do without.

We talk, Sir, about wasting time and we have looked at the opposition,since this Redistribution Bill was put forward, come in in - support of fifty-one members when it was origin.ally passed, in this session go back to forty-two members,with an amendment to go back to fifty-one members and today support an amendment for forty-two members. Now, Mr. Speaker, they say "They have the right to change their mind." This is very true. But only the opposition, Sir, can manage to do it three times in three weeks.

The fact is when the Minister of Justice who was supporting and stating government policy in this House last ye.ar, when he made those statements, it was government policy and he should be backed up on that and is. The fact is, Sir, that the commission were given certain terms of reference but as the 8256

December 16, 1974 Tape 2156 PK - " elected renresentatives of the people we were the people in the end analysis who were p,oing to he accountable. We are the ones who stand accountable for the changes which we think are correct, changes which identify, in the main, the communitv of :Interest of various areas _, changes which we, on the government side, have made. '-'P have onlv changed our minds once, Sir, unlike the opnosition, who as I have said, done it three times in three weeks. Dealing with all of the remarks that have been made, Mr.

Sneaker. is impossible and fruitless at this parti~ular time because most of it was done for political mileage, most of 1t was done to nrolong and try to make an issue out of this particular subject. The fact is. Sir, in the one area where I have some sympathy was when the !~ember for Labrador South spoke in the House and I would like to explain on that repard that I disagree with his suggestion of Labrador South, North as we knew it , hut regarding Labrador West first, I will speak on the three districts involved.

Rep.:ard:ln11: Labrador West first, the onlv figures, Sir, that the commission or the government had to go on were the census figures that were available. If it proves that these fip.:ures were wrong, that they were as far out as we have been led to believe ( I am not arguing with that fact by the wav) I am 1ust saying if thev were that far out certainly the area we now know as Labrador T,Test has to be reasse:,sed and looked at in a meaningful fashion. It is not the intention of this government to have Labrador West as the biggest district in the province.

It is quite the reverse because of the isolation of Labrador it is the intention of this governnent that it he treated fairly in every respect and if anything, lesser nopulation rather than more population. I would also like to talk, Sir, about the C:oastal sea,ts the Eagle River Seat in that, where I disagree and where this government disagrees with the arguments that have gone before, we have heard, for instance, the Leader of the Opnosition say "That it is 700 miles from ~arv' s Harbour to Nain. " Sir, 1f he went 70() miles 1-n a direct line 8257

December 1~, Jq74 Tape 2156 PK - 'l from ~ary' s Rarhou r to ~lain he would be three-qua rters of the way hsicl· av.a1n. 'l'he fact 1 s thnt it is 4no milei: 1.n a direct line. The fact is . Sir, on that Lahrador Coastal seat we believe very ~tron~ly that if that coa~tal ~eat of Lahrador is to he renresented and ~iven the onoortunity to project and live and take oart in the societv and the century in which we live in it has not to be isolated. it hai: heen isolated throu~h renresentation for twenty-three years .

Since that time we have done the best we can in setting uo a commission to study that oarticular oart of the coast hut if it is ~oin~ to nlay its nart in the nrovince that we have> in the future it must not be ~overned hy remote control and even, Sir, 8258

... December 16, 1974. Tape 2157 PJ, - l I suggest to say Goose Bay, Happy Valley is remote control for the coastal part of Labrador. I would say, 'Ir. Sreaker, and I would supgest that air strips in that particular area are of critical importance because coastal traffic as we all know is not always easy. As a matter of fact it is usually very difficult plus the fact we have 150 miles or a member has 151') miles to pc by boat just to get out of Lake Melville.

The fact is tl1at, for instance in tile .~ew Development Corporation for the Coast of Labrador, it is my feelin?, rip:ht now that the l1eadquarters for that particular <.levelopmer:t corporation should be in Cartwright and not Goose Bay. I think if tlte Coast of Labrador is ever p:oing to be identifiec! and given the opportunity to nlay its

part in the sun or to have its place in the sun then it s!1ould be dealt with on its own merits and nt>t by p,overnn,ent~departl'le!ll or any other indirect or rf'mote control. 1 think the action '1as to be taken to the people where they live on the coast and that involves communications throu~h air strips and location of headquarters of various agencies there. So, :Ir. Speaker, witn all due respect to those who have spoken, we feel very stron,rly that the Coast of Labrador be p,iven an opportunity. The other system and the other distribution has not worked.

I would say, Sir, in all respect, 1;:ive this one an opi,ortuni ty to work, equally as I said Labrador West, foe government's bin<l is one of waitinr; the census fir:ures on that one to see what can be <lone. ,fow, Hr. Speaker, we have heard a lot about the other districts in the Province.

I think most of them, the comn:unity of interest for instance in the District of r:xploi ts, the community of interest of the peopl" of the North Shore of Green Bay being in Baie Verte, White !lay, the community of interest of the people ,;.,i th all due respect to my friend from Fos,;o who said that the people from Chanre Islands have more in common with Twillinp:ate, the fact is that Change Islands, when the new road is completed, the ferry system will be into Port Albert which in fact makes the natural line of communication from Change Islands to Lewisporte.

I think most members in this !louse will ar,ree with that. When we talk, Sir, about the community of interest of various area<,, I think in the main the opposition have said very little about the majority 8259

December 16, 1974. Tape 2137 Rll - 2 of the chanRes. They say there are thirty-one changes in the seats. The fac t is, Sir, as we have said there may be six or seven changes of major si,r.nificance and as a matter of tact these are the only ones that have been debated to any preat degree . The opposition members have said though however, that they are onposed to Grand Falls havinr: i cs own seat. I think that, Sir, should be on the record .

They are opposed to St . :iary's having a seat put back and I think, Sir, that the peoole of St. 'lary 's should put that on the record, that they never mentioned the new district of llellev ue, they said it should be every,,,here else but that particular district should not have a seat of its own. They have talked, Sir, about Ferry land as bein g a dis trice where it should be swallowed up into something else as well. The fact is, Sir, that the opposition are against having quite a few districts in this Province. I think the people in Ferry land an.d St.

Mary's , Grand Falls and these o tlu~r seats should be well aware of the fact, llellevue, 8260

December 16, 1974 Tape 2158 IB-1 that if the opposition had their way they would not have the seats that they have always had before or even that they are going to have now. The fact is, Sir, that most of the districts in this province have now fair representation. Harbour Main, Bell Island has come in by the opposition as saying that Harbour Main, Bell Island, the reason this was done by the government is because it was a hatchet job c·n the present member for Bell Island. Well, Mr. Speaker, how about a hatchet job on the present member for Harbour Main? Why is it that the member for Bell Island is so sensitive?

There is no lack of confidence on this side. I am sure there should not be on the other side. Sir, I really would suggest that they see the writing on the wall. They see, in fact, that there is no opportunity of winning an election other than calling foul play. The fact is, Sir, if one voteone nPr~~~ is foul play - I can understand why they think that is foul pla•,. thev were never used to it. In the October election of 1971 when it was, I think, sixty-four or sixty-five per cent of the popular vote was for the party that I happen to lead, we ended up in what was basically a stalemate.

I can understand why they think they should be the government with forty per cent of the vote. That is the way it was done all the way before. The fact is, Sir, it is no longer there. With all due respect, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member for Bell Island mentions Mr. Saunders but I wuld like to ask him about Mr. Shea and Mr. Burgess and all the other gentlemen as well. AN HONOURABLE MEtlBER: Would you care to debate that now? MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker,the answer is obviously, no, this is not the time to debate it. What we are talking about now, Sir, is the redistribution in the province.

What we are talking about is the waste of time that keeps coming out of the honourable member for Bell Island's mouth. He wants to waste time in this House. He wants to get cheap, small, political points at a time when this province and this country needs good government, good legislation and needs to do things that matter rather than just taking up the peoples' time to further their own cheap political ends. Mr. Speaker, I would like to get back to the fact that the 8261

December 16, 1974 Tape 2158 IB-2 opposition position on this particular bill has been particularly bad. I think the fact is that as I said before, we hnve now for the first time, distribution based on 8,000 to 12,000 people in every district with the exception of three whereby before we had 3,400 to 6,000 was the ratio. The fact is, Sir, that we have, I think, made a constructive step forward. We have in the case of Labrador isolated one area with an intent of trying to develop it. We have also said that we would look at the other Area of Labrador if the census warrants such doing.

Also, Sir, I would suggest that, with all due respect again - I have said this so many times now it does not seem to matter - but personalties continuously and continuously seem to lend itself to part of the debate in this House. I suppose there are moments when we can all get carried away with that sort of thing but for it to be carried on on a continuous basis, I really do not think is any credit to any member of this House, whether they be on the government side or the opposition side. Mr. Speaker, as I have said before, I would like to go over, at this time, the adoption of this resolution.

This bill is the fairest bill on redistribution this House of Assembly, in my opinion, has ever had. As I said before, all the issues have been discussed. All the points have been made. The only point that I would make, Sir, is that this is the best bill on redistribution that this province has ever had. I hereby move the reading. NR. SPEAKER: All those in favour of the motion "Aye". Those against ''Nay". In my opinion, the "Ayes" have it. DIVISION: MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order, please! All those in favour of the motion please rise.

The honourable the Premier, the honourable the Minister of Mines and Energy, 8262

December 16, 1974 Taoe 21SQ PK - 1 the Hon. Minister of Industrial nevelonment, the Hon. Minister of Health, the Hon. ~Unister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, the Hon. Minister of Transnortation and r.ommunications, the Hon. Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreat:1.on, the Hon. Minister of F.ducation, the Hon. Minister of Justice, the Hon. Mr. Marshall, the Hon. '-linister of Fisheries, the Hon. "lin:lster of Public Works, and Services, the Hon. Minister of Finance, Mr. Dunphv, Mr. Avl"Ward, ~'r. Wells, "'fr. Senior, "r. Wilson, Mr. Younp, Mr. F.vans, Mr. ''organ, Mr. Howard.

Those against the motion nlease rise: The Hon. Leader of the Onnosition, Mr. Gillette , Mr. Nearv '-'r. Rowe, Mr. '~artin, "Ir. r.arter. The motion is carried. On motion of the Hon. the Minister without Portfolio, A Rill, ' 'An Act To Amend The House Of Assemhlv Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time, on tomorrow . .!!_f!N. W. W. MARSHALL ('t.{!NISTF.'R WITHOUT PORTFOLIO) : Mr. Sneaker, I _1ust TJonder, if l may, on a noint of clarification more than anvthing else. This bill was introduced oursuant to a resolution in the same manner as a monev hill-is :Introduced. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKF.R: MR.

MARSHALL: On anoint of order. Order, ))lease: Normally bills have to be read three times in each successive day under Standing Order (SR.) hut the notes to the Standing Orders of the House of Assembly which have p,u:l.ded the House for quite a period of time written by Mr. Speaker Sparkes I believe, ves, say that "When vou have resolutions of this nature, bills that are introduced nursuant to a resolution (This is on nape 34) "The resolutions are adopted hv Ways and Means, by a report of the House nut by the Speaker an ,! incornorated in the BilJ of Sunnly etc. ..

The hill is usually - Standing Order (58) which is the one 'IJhich reouires reading on succession day.s usually suspended. Now you know this is almost the same tvoe of hill and hy wav of discussion as to the nrocedure of the House I just wonder 8263

Tape 2159 PK - 2 whether it might not be in order hecause all we will be doing after all, ~ir, is regurgitating nrohably the same points that have been made, I do not know if the Leader of the Onposition wishes to address himself to that situation. MR. SPF.AKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: I would be persuaded to, Mr. Sperker, and if the honourable gentleman's tongue was any further in his cheek, well that is not parliamentarv but anv ..,ay, you knm·•, the honourable gentleman cannot he serious.

The note to which he refers on page 34 refers specifically to Supply Bills that have heen considered by the Committee of Sunply. This matter has yet to he considered by any committee, the House has debated a resolution, we have now 11:iven a bill first reading.

The rules are auite clear that the hill will now have to be called tomorrow for second reading if that is when the government choose, the most urgent item of business before the House then we can go on from there in the normal course but there is nothing in the rules or in the precedents which would in any way would supnort any course of action with this hill other than exactly the same course as every other bill takes with the single exception of monev bills. This, Sir, is obviouslv not a money bill. Mll.

SPEAKER: It is not a money hill and exceot by leave, of course, it has to follow the same procedure as any other hill. 'MR. ROBERTS: I am preoared to meet Christmas on such urgent business. Motion, second reading of a Bill, "An Act Respectin!!; The Newfoundland Medical Association And Governing The Practice Of Medicine In The Province. '' MR. SPEAKER: The Fon. Minister of Health. ------- HON. DR. A. ROWE (MINISTFR OF HEALTH): It is my nleasure to introduce to this honourable House Bill No. 119 which is the Act Resnecting The Newfonndland 8264

December 16, 1974 Tape 2160 IB-1 Medical Association in governing the practice of medicine in the province. Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased publicly to give my full support to this bill which if approved by the House and proclaimed in force will repeal the existing Newfoundland Medical Board Act and replace it with a modern act to govern the registration, the licensing and the disciplining of medical practitioners in the province. The present act, Mr. Speaker, although amended dates back to the late 1800's and in fact the Newfoundland Medical Board was first constituted in 1893 with the famous Dr.

Henry Shea as its first president. Dr. Shea has been remembered in the province as a person whom after Shea Ward at the general hospital is named. Dr. J. Sinclair Tait was the first registrar. The various amendments have been introduced from time to time. The present medical board operates under

Chapter 264 of the revised statutes of 1970 and the last amendment was in 1959. The act is long overdue for revision and indeed replacement. Mr. Speaker, in introducing this bill I would be remiss if I did not pay some tribute to those members of the medical profession who have given of their time and their advice in the development of this bill. One would have to publicly recognize the indefatigable work of such members as Dr. Brownrigg who for some years was registrar of the board. Indeed he was a member from 1955 and registrar since 1966.

He is well-known as one of the most senior and most respected members of the medical profession in our province. He has contributed mightily to the development of this bill and especially those parts which deal with the functions of the new medical board. I am sure that Dr. Brownrigg would agree that much of the effectiveness of the board in modern times was due to the very commanding presence down through the years of one of our very senior member, Dr. Tony MacPherson, a most respected and long time practitioner. Among his many monuments is his outstanding devotion to the work of the Newfoundland Medical Board.

As this is a combined bill, referring not alone to the Newfoundland Medical Board but to the Newfoundland Medical Association, one must include a tribute to the executive of the association, both past 8265

December 16, 1974 Tape 2160 and present who with Dr. Henderson, the present president, have considerable input into development of the bill. Indeed I have IB-2 also to mention the secretary, the executive secretary of the Newfoundland Medical Association and the Department of Health officials who played important parts in this and deserve their mention. The bill we are considering today, Mr, Speaker, is the result of repeated discussions and long hours of study and negotiation between the professional body of the Department of Health and naturally the Department of Justice whose assistance is acknowledged .

This bill will provide among other things for the statutory incorporation of the Newfoundland Medical Association which is currently incorporated as a charitable company under the provisions of the Companies Act. The bill specifies the powers, the functions and the duties that the association may exercise. These matters are enumerated in part (2) of the bill under discussion. An important part of the new bill is part (3) which deals with the regulatory matters pretaining the the practice of medicine and the registration and licensing and disciplining of medical practitioners.

That part provides for an enlarged medical board of twelve members with more diversified membership and the existing board of course comprises of seven members. As I have said, the new board as proposed by this bill will consist of twelve members including at least two who would not be members of the medical profession.

I am indeed happy that at least two members of this new medical board will not be medical practitioners for I am a firm believer that in the principle of cons1DDer representation, I am rarticularly pleased that the medical board is the first professional licensing board in the health field to provide for consumer representation in its membership. As Minister of Health it is my desire to see all future health licensing and regulatory boards so constituted. The member will find it in part (3), section (11).

The bill provides for three registers , a general register which shall contain the names of all medical practitioners who are registered in the province , 8266

December 16, 1974 Tape No. 2161 NM - 1 a specialist register which would contain the names of all specialists who are registered in the province and an educational register for the registration of clinical clerks, interns and residents. At present the specialist list is administered by the Newfoundland Medical Association but this will change with the coming in of the act and of course the education register becomes necessary with the development of the Memorial University Medical School.

Now the bill provides for the qualifications for registration in the various registers and also provides for the publication of these registers on an annual basis. But in addition to establishing criteria for registration, the bill provides an appeal procedure for applicants who are aggrieved by a decision of the board to refuse to enter the applicant's name in one of the registers. Mr. Speaker, as well as the licencing and registration of medical practitioners, this bill also provides for the disciplining of medical practitioners in instances where the board decides that disciplinary action should be taken.

While the bill empowers the board to exercise disciplinary powers, it also enables the board to deal with situations where a medical practitioner may, as in the case of any other member of society, be admitted to hospital for treatment of psychiatric illness or for addiction to alcohol or drugs and these provisions were inserted at the request of the medical profession and in my opinion it is a clear indication of the profession's desire to take all possible steps to protect and to safeguard the interests of the public.

Now a very significant provision of the bill is that it provides for compulsory membership in the Newfoundland Medical Association. In other words, all medical practitioners who hold a licence and who wish to practice medicine in the province are required, within one month from the date of issue of their licence to become members of the association. I under­ stand that the association is now considering revising its membership fee 8267

December 16, 1974 Tape No, 2161 NM - 2 structure with a view to having different fees to be paid by different categories of physicians. For example it is proposed that the present system of reduced fees for physicians practicing for their first year would be continued. It is further proposed that there be different fees in respect of physicians who are not actively engaged in clinical practice. Another matter under consideration is that members only be required to pay the Newfoundland Medical Association's portion of the existing full membership fee and that the Canadian Medical Association portion be optional.

In other words there is incorporated in the present fee which is paid by members an amount which goes to the Canadian Medical Association and this will be optional. They will be required to pay the Newfoundland Medical Association portion but not necessarily the Canadian Medical portion although I would assume that most perhaps will continue.

I decided to support this provision after much delibe ~ation ard consideration and at the present time the Newfoundland Medical Association is carrying out work on behalf of many medical practitioners in the province and not alone those who are its members and it is the opinion of the Association that all medical practitioners who wish to become actively engaged in the practice of medicine should contribute towards the maintenance and operational expenses of the Association in return for the services rendered by the Association and these are indeed many. MR. NEARY: What is the membership now?

Do they have one hundred per cent now or - DR. ROWE: No we do not have one hundred per cent but it is well over four hundred and the total doctors in the province is about five hundred so we have - AN HON. MEMBER: Four hundred in the Association? .DR. ROWE: Yes, something like that. We have something like eighty or ninety per cent. But I shall have some figures later on which will - While this position of the Association was a reasonable one it was not 8268

December 16, 1974 Tape No. 2161 NM - 3 sufficient to convince me to support the principle of compulsory membersh i p in the Association. As far as· I can ascertain. Wo other provinces, N.ew Brunswick and Quebec have compulsory membership. One province, f British Colwnbia is working towards a check--Qff by the Medicare agency of that province , Another province, Saskatchewan, is working toward a form of Rand formula.

So then to accept this principle of compulsory membership would be quite a departure from the norm. l therefore felt that it was a decision not to be taken Ughtly and certainly not without the opi.nion of the overall medical fraternity of the province. For those reasons some months ago I requested that a vote by secret ballot be conducted of all medical practitioners in the province, not just those who are m.embers of the Association, 8269

December 16, 1974 Tape 2162 IB-1 to determine the collective feelings of the profession with respect to the concept of compulsory membership within the association. Accordingly ballots were sent to all medical practitioners to determine their wishes on this question. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Including all those who are not registered? DR. ROWE: All doctors in the province that were known. Not just those who were members of the association, that ie the whole point. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. DR. ROWE: We did not just go to the members, we went to every doctor in the province, members and nonmembers.

The result of the vote substantially favoured compulsory membership by the association. Out of 506 ballots distributed to medical practitioners, 358 responded and 280 voted in favour of compulsory membership while seventy-one voted against it and seven ballots were invalidated. In other words, eighty per cent of those voting were in favour of compulsory membership. MR. NEARY: A little over fifty per cent of the total number of doctors in the province, and that is very significant. DR. ROWE: Five hundred people got the ballots but only three hundred odd sent them back. MR.

NEARY: Five hundred and sixty and only 280 voted in favour of compulsory membership. DR. ROWE: Relatively good numbers considering the number of ballots sent out. There were well over 500 of those sent out. A number did not reply but one cannot tell me that 280 out of 358 which came in was not an overwhelming majority. MR. NEARY: Two hundred and eighty 0•1t of 506 really. DR. ROWE: Three hundred and fifty-eight responded to the 500 sent out. One hundred and twenty odd - MR. NEARY: Well, did anyone ever try to find out why the others did not respond? DR.

ROWE: Well, they are probably as administratively inactive as some of us. I think you would have to say that of this eighty per cent of those voting - I think that is very decisive and I have no hesitation in asking the House to approve this provision. If some of us were elected 8270

December 16, 1974 Tape 2162 with an equal majority, we would feel very much more comfortable. MR. NEARY: But it is very significant - IB-2 DR. ROWE: Oh, very significant that most of our doctors should favour it. MR. NEARY: Most of the doctors did not vote in favour of it. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, let the man continue his speech. DR. ROWE: I think you should also realize - MR. NEARY: I am not trying to get information out of the minister. DR. ROWE: - that the concept of compulsory membership presently exists in the case of a number of other professional bodies. MR. NEARY: Unions, trade unions movements. DR.

ROWE: Lawyers, engineers, dentists - MR. ROBERTS: No, that is not with respect to lawyers. DR. ROWE: Pardon? MR. ROBERTS: We only pay a registration fee in the law society. DR. ROWE: In order to practice you must pay that fee. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. DR. ROWE: But we are saying now to practice you must pay the fee. _MR. ROBERTS: Yes but we do not have to belong to the Newfoundland Bar Association. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: By statute, by statute. DR.

ROWE: Well, I would say that in the case of the medical association there is no hesitation in saying that this compulsory membership now is a result of the democratic proces•· However the legal or dental or - HR. NEARY: Is this the same across Canada1 DR. ROWE: No, I have just said that there are only two other provinces. MR. NEARY: Only two other provinces. DR. ROWE: There was one other with the Rand Formula. MR. NEARY: Where is the other one? Where is the other province? DR. ROWE: If you would listen. AN HONOURABLE ME!-IBER: For the love of jumpins, will you listen for a while? DR.

ROWE: Do you want me to go back about two pages? MR. NEARY: No, I happened to be out of the House for a few minutes. 8271

December 16, 1974 Tape 2162 DR. ROWE: New Brunswick. MR. NEARY: New Brunswick. Okay, good. I did not realize this point was so significant until I started to listen to the - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: When did you start to listen? MR. NEARY: Two hundred and eighty out of 506. IB-3 DR. ROWE: I will find that for you in the course of time. I think, Mr. Speaker, it might be of interest to the House at this time, to hear some details of medical manpower as it is at this time in the province. We have in excess of 500 doctors in Newfoundland.

The breakdown of this figure shows that we have in salaried medical services in Newfoundland, 163 practicing physicians. In 1971 there were 121. That represents an increase of forty-two. These doctors work in government medical services and with such other organizations as IGA, the Notre Dame Bay Memorial, the M.J. Boylen Hospital, etc. In thi~ period we have increased the number of doctors in practically every hospital. We have added three new areas where doctors were not practicing at the time, areas such as Port au Port, Trinity and one other one, Kings Cove.

Of the increase of forty-two doctors, only ten were from our own University Medical School because the full effect of our own medical school has not yet been developed. For instance, this was the first year that our graduates were eligible for full registration. That brought twenty-three into practice in the province, into full practice and fifteen of these are now in the province but the remaining eight have left the province. Froru July, 1975 the number will escalate yearly.

If we look at private, general practice in the province, we have in private, general practice in medicine 170 doctors who are not, of course, under any government direction. This number compares with 101 in 1971. That is an increase of sixty-nine. There were eighty-one medical specialists in Newfoundland , in 1971. In 1974 there were 113. 8212

December 16, 1974 Tape 2Hi3 PK - 1 ~ow new posts and vacancies in the specialities of ophthalmology and F..N.T. are the hardest specialities of all to fill hut I am happy to announce that we have now ohtained an opli.thalmologist ,:,1ho will practice from Stephenville, another who will be based in St. John's in affiliation with the universitv but whose appointment will reauire him to visit regularlv areas such as Placentia, r.ome-bv-r.hance, Carbonear and certain other areas where out-patient eye clinics will he established to bring this needed service to further areas. We will continue to expand these services.

So there has been an overall doctor increase since 1°71 of well over one hundred, which has been accomplished in spite of the attrition due to doctors leaving the nrovince to undergo nest-graduate training or to practice in other provinces. Therefore. ~ur total of more than 500 positions for our population of about 500,000 gives us a ratio of one doctor for 1,070. This compares not unfavourably with most other provinces of Canada. For instance, in 1970, the doctor-patient ratio in Ne~ifoundland was one doctor for 1,210 people, in 1974, it is one doctor for 1,n70 people. MR. NEARY: How are we doing on dentists?

DR. ROWE: Not so well but we are imnroving, and next vear we will do more. But the problem in the nrovince at the present time is not so much thP ~cute shortage of medical manpower but rather the · maldistribution of medical manpower. MR. NEARY: ------ DR. ROHE: ----· They all want to get in the Citv. More or less. But another interesting fact,is that,in the year J.071 the turnover of doctors in cottage hosnitals and district medical practices was thirty-eight per cent, for the vear 1()74, the turnover was onlv twenty per cent.

I think this indicates a much greater degree of medical stabilitv which is partly to be desired, hv the patients , by t