Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 27

April 8, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mt, Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 1135 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable Member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr, Speaker, I would like to rise on a matter of personal privilege, I think it is that. if you would just bear with me a second. The Daily News this morning reported that I had - AN HON. MEMBER: I cannot hear you- Speak up. Speak up. MR.

SIMMONS: The Daily News this morning reported that I had supported the petition presented by the Minister of Justice in reference to the, not presented but the petition referred to by the Minister of Justice yesterday on the location of the site for a port on the South Coast. I did not support that petition. Indeed I did not stand at all in connection with that matter. And just for the record I would like it to be noted that I did not support that petition. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. H. COLLINS, MINISTER OF FORESTRY AND AGRICULTURE: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make the following statement with regard to the potato marketing situation and the potato pricing situation in Newfoundland, I met with the honourable Eugene Whelan who is the federal Minister of Agriculture last month in Ottawa regarding the potato price situation in Newfoundland. At the same time the ministers from Prince Bdward Island, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick sat in on the meeting and all of the problems in the Atlantic Provinces were brought to the federal minister's attention.

Subsequent to that, the ministers from Ontario and Quebec had meetings because there are problems existing there as well. The details of the assistance are now being worked out but I can inform the House today that all producers, and this includes Newfoundland producers now, all producers who are selling number one Canada grade potatoes will qualify for assistance to the extent of $1.67 per hundred weight. The assistance will reduce losses 1we know,to the producers, hopefully more than cover their cost of production and will also enable them to 3411

April 8, 1975 Tape No. 1135 NM - 2 be able to undertake farming again when the season arrives. The programme is to be administered by the Federal Department of Agriculture and all farmers are being advised to make the appropriate contact with the regional offices of that particular department . MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, of course we welcome any announcment, Sir, that would help the potato growers in this Province but the minister did not make it clear, Sir, in his statement whether this is a federal programme or a provincial programme or if the cost is shared jointly by the Province and the Government of Canada,or exclusively a provincial programme,or is it exclusively a federal programme? Now, Sir, $1.76 I think tbe - AN HON. MEMBER: $1.67. MR. NEARY: $1.67 the minister mentioned a hundred weight, which may or may not, Sir, be satisfactory.

I have very grave doubts whether it is going to be sufficient to tide the potato farmers over or .not, and I do not know whether this will be sufficient encouragement for the farmers to plant again this year. We all know in this Province at the moment that the consumers here, at least somebody is getting a break, the conslD!lers are getting a break because the price of potatoes was never as low as it is at the moment, but it is rather t~agic for the potato growers in this Province, Sir. But, Mr.

Speaker, although our own provincial minister made the statement, Sir, I somehow or other got the impression from his statement that this is strictly a federal progralIDlle, Would the minister care to clarify that? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The ministers make a statement, If members require a further clarification to statements they have the opportunity to ask questions during the question period. MR. COLLINS: Mr . Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will ask leave - 3412

April 8, 1975 Tape No. 1135 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is another time on the working proceedings for a notice of motion. Are there any other ministedal statements? 3413

April 8, 1975, Tape 1136, Page 1 - apb MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: PRESENTING PETITIONS Tbe honourable the Member for Bonavista South. Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from thftty-one hunters on the Eastport Peninsula area · in my district, and these hunters are petitioning the Newfoundland Government through the Wildlife Division of that Department,of the Department of Tourism, to make changes with regards to the issuing of 1975 moose licenses. Tbe prayer of their petition, Mr.

Speaker, is that they are asking for,No. (1), that only one big game licence be issued in 1975 per family> one licence per family. No. (2), some regard to the choice of hunting areas, Tbeyare asking that when a hunter applies for one specific area as his first choice, that preference be given to his application over and above people who apply for the same area as their second or third choice. No.(3), I think they are emphasizing here in the prayer that with regards to safety precautions all hunters applying for a big game licence should know how to handle a rifle and know the proper ammunition.

Tbe hunters suggest that game wardens and the R.C.M.P. be used to test each person applying for a big game licence and before his name is entered into a draw for a moose licence that the person applying should be issued an approval slip from the R.C.M.P. or from any Wildlife Officer in the area. Tbis slip should be attached to the application for a big game licence and this would give proof that the individual applicant was checked out and approved to use a rifle. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I fully support all three aspects of this petition because I know that what was happening in past years, especially last year, was that there were families who received as high as three licenses in the one family. A man could apply, his wife could apply and his son or his daughter, Tbe unfortunate thing is that licences were issued to individuals, for example, like a woman,or in this case a man's wife or his daughter and they did not know the difference between a rifle and a shotgun. They ~414

April 8, 1975, Tape 1136, Page 2 - apb had no idea how to use a rifle or even recognize the difference between the two types of guns, yet they were issued a moose lictence. When it came time to go hunting they could not go in to hunt the moosejto use the rifle. And also, their husbands could not go and use that same licence because it would be a violation of the Wildlife Division. I think that kind of a regulation is a very illll)ortant one and I fully support the request of theee hunters. I also think with regard to the aspect of having the hunters checked out is a very important one with regard to safety.

We see too often hunters in the wilderness hunting and in many cases they are not only careless, but they are not knowledgeable .with regard to the use of firearms • . AN HON. MEMBER: Members of families - MR. MORGAN: Members of families and members of household. For example, in some cases a person could have his nephew livinp: with him and his nephew could apply for a licence. So, Mr.

Speaker, I fully supl)Ort this and I hope that the minister reponsible, in this case the Minister of Tourism, will give it very careful consideration in the hope that these changes will be brought about in the 1975 moose hunting season. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Member for Grand Falls. MR. SENIOR: Mr. Speaker, I have great pleasure in supporting the petition presented by the Member from Bonavista South because over the last two or three years I have on several occasions spoken in this House concerning the same matter.

I believe if the record was checked I may have presented one or two netitions myself concerning the same !118tter of issuing moose licenses, the realignment of hunting areas, the institution of the new management areas and what it meant, not only to hunters, but also to outfitters in the various areas of the province. So it seems, Sir, that the problem is not only a problem of concern to people in Central Newfoundland and in our particular 3415

April 8, 1975, Tape 1136, Page 3 -- apb area, but also on the Eastport Peninsula as well. I would like to get back specifically to some of the points mentioned in the prayer of the petition, and that is apparently, and I say apparently because I have checked into this 1I even checked with the minister on occasions concerning the fact that two or three members of a household, as many as two or three had obtained licenses for big game in the licence draw when other members of other families had applied and did not receive a licence.and people in my area became very emotional about this.

However, I have been assured that this could not happen but apparently it was happening and certainly I think it is an area that should be looked at very, very carefully. As far as the regulations or control or precautionary measures that should be taken for the use of firearms, certainly this is a measure that should be considered as well in view of the nwnber of accidents that we have during the hunting season each year. Another area 1of course, is the ratio between the number of licenses issued to resident hunters as opl)Osed to non-resident hunters.

All these areas are areas of concern to the hunter in Newfoundland and I think there should be J maybe there have already been,but if there has not I think there should be an extensive study carried out to see how it is affecting the people in Newfoundland because most of our people, Sir, not only hunt for sport but also hunt big game because they need it or use it as a source of food. So I wholeheartedly support th~ prayer of this petition and hope that any misunderstandings which have existed in the past will be cleared up in the future for the benefit of all concerned.

MR. ~~_EAKER: The honourable the Member from Trinity North. ~ .!.B_RETT: Mr. Speaker, I feel that I have to support this petition as well because it is a matter of grave concern in my district. I do not think I have ever brought it to the attention of the House,as the Member for Grand Falls did, but I have been 3416

April 8, 1975, Tape 1137, Page 1 -- apb contacted on many, many occasions by some ardent hunters in my district who are very concerned about the way that the licenses have been issued in the past year. I certainly agree that the government must have control or must regulate the kill but I feel that some changes should be made. I agree with the Member from Bonavista South and the Member from Grand FAl.ls in that in many cases, and I do have actual knowledge of as many as four licenses going into the one family, not the one household but the one family. I also know of blind people who have gotten moose licenses.

Now this is absolutely ridiculous and I am certain that some changes have to be made. I think probalHy, if the season was shortened, opening the season during the months of September and October, for many, many moose are destroyed during this time of year when they are shot at by the hunter, crippled, cannot be tracked and the moose goes away and perishes. I would suggest that if there is a scarcity of moose in a certain area that area be closed altogether or otherwise shorten the season throughout the whole province and have the season open in the month of,say, December only.

Sir, I heartily support the petition and I am sure the Minister and his staff will have another look at the way that the licenses are presently being issued. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Member for Bell Island. ---·- -- MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House support the prayer of the petition. I think there were probably two or three if not four, at least three points mentioned in the petition. I think they were all matters that are very well taken, Sir. But, Mr.

Speaker, it seems to me to be rather unusual that so many members on the govermnent side should have to rise in support of the petition. Apparently the machinery is not working, the co111111unications system is not working. They do have caucuses, Sir, and you would think these would be matters that would be 3417

April 8, 1975, Tape 1137, Page 2 -- apb discussed in caucus. In the meantime - SOME HON. MEMBERS : (Inaudible) MR. 1,PEAKER: Order, please! MR. IDRGAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A petition of this nature, these types of petitions do not be tabled in caucus meetings. They are tabled in the House of Assembly and the honourable Member from Bell Island should know that. AN HON.

MEMBER: That is not a point of order. ~_J..!'._EAKER: Order, please: The honourable the Member for Bell Island should have been speaking to the prayer of the petition but I think he was straying somewhat from the prayer of that petition into matters that should or should not be discussed in caucus, ~--!'JEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is obvious from the prayer of the petition, Sir, that the present system,which was changed after the P,C,Administration took over from the Liberal Administration, this system apparently is not working.

I certainly agree with one of the points in the prayer of the petition that hunters should have to pass some sort of a test before they are issued a licence to go in the woods because there have been instances in Newfoundland, Sir, where hunters have shot their guides. I do not think that has happened in many instances where Newfoundlanders have licenses but - (Inaudible) ~- NEARY: I beg your pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not think these were Newfoundland hunters. These were in some cases American hunters.

Now I do not know how you would control it as far as issuing licenses to outsiders is concerned. Now, Sir, as far as women and two or three members of a family getting a licence, well, Sir, my understanding is that you have a computerized system and the draw apparently is fair. 3418

April 8, 1975, Tape 1137, Page 3 - apb In a free society, Sir, anybody over the age of twenty-one should be able to make an application for a licence and they all take their chances. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. MORGAN: Even though they cannot hunt? They are not capable of hunting. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, but one of the built-in features of the l!cence is that they should have to go and hunt. If they do not hunt they just give up their licence. In the case of people who are disabled, Mr.

Speaker, in my opinion a blind man should - there should be some provision made for that kind of person to get a licence, Why in a free society - MR. EVANS: (Inaudible) MR._ NEARY: There should be some arrangement made wherebv he can have a licence and somebody else shoot the moose for him, Sir. Because after all, Mr. Speaker, in a free society people in wheel­ chairs or if they are blind they should have the right, tlie same right as anybody else. And special arrangements can be made in these cases, Sir, otherwilie you would be discriminating.

As far as women getting licences is concerned, Sir, a man and his wife, I do not see anything wrong with that unless there is a regulation made that there only be one licence per family. I believe that regulation,was in force a few years ago. To do otherwise, Sir, you run afoul, I am afraid, of Womens 'Lib, because there are a lot of women who like to go 3419

April 8, 1975, Tape 1138, Page 1 -- apb hunting. In the meantime I think there are some very good points in the prayer of the petition and I hope that the Minister of Tourism will take the 11111tter unrler advisement and see what can be done to change the situation. MR._SPEAKER: The honourable the Minister of Tourism. HON. T.V.HICKEY (Minister of Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I want to say a word with regard to this petition. I want to say first of all that in principle I certainly have to support some of the things that are contained in it.

And by way of doing that I think it is an appropriate time to make honourable members aware of some recent changes in the policy with regard to licencing. I find it very strange for my honourable friend from Bell Island who says that the present system is not working and that it was changed from the previous one. I certainly agree that it was changed from the previous one, Mr. Speaker, and rightly so.

For the first ti~e in the Province the system with regard to moose licencing or for licences for big game, moose and caribou, whatever faults that may be contained in the system !IS yet it is the most fair one that this Province has ever known. There are some weaknesses in it and we are attempting constantly to find ways and means to cure those areas. I am not sure that it can ever be done in tel'DIS of eliminating some of the problems that the honourable Member for Bonavista South has raised. For example, a matter of more than one licence going to a family, that problem can never be sorted out.

There can never be a ~uarantee that it will not happen as long as the present hunting system of hunters in terms of qualifications to be hunters exist. In this regard, Mr. Speaker, my department has set up a progranune of hunter safety training in some of the very areas here that are of concern to those hunters,of whom the honourable member speaks today, which has received so much support. I would like to point out that this programme is now in effect, that somewhere in the vicinity of 1,373 people have been 3420

April 8, 1975, Tape 1138, Page 2 - apb trained or received training under this programme during the past twelve months. Now they are not all hunters. Some of them are young people in the Scout Movement and certain organizations like that. The Rod and Gun Club are assisting greatly by volunteering their services by way of training, the latter with regard to female and male hunters. It is a matter, Mr. Speaker, which is certainly completely misunderstood.

The impression is left among a lot of our people that because of the loose way of issuing licences in terms of who can qualify for onelor who can qualify to be a hunter or what have you, or the lack of such a programme, that a lot of the female population get licences. Now this, Mr. Speaker, is certainly not the case and to sort of offer some evidence in this regard I can ·state that last year there were 372 female members of the population who received licences - I am soirrv, applied for licences-and 9,000 male.

So, you know, the problem, because there is not rigid control and inspection as to the use of firearms or as to who could qualify to be a legitimate hunter, the lack of a programme that the honourable llelllber refers to, does not mean that the female population to any great degree get licences. I want to say with regard to the matter of choice with regard to licences, I cannot agree with No. (2) • My officials and I have discussed this many times before this matter ever came up,and it must be pointed out, Mr.

Speak.er, that if No.(2) were to be implemented the system would be much more discrlmnatory than, in fact, it is,if it is. I am not suggesting that the present system is perfect but, Mr. Speaker, I think it has to be said that the present system that we have is the best one that is available. Of all the researching that has been done throughout the country, indeed throughout North America, 3421

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1139 Page 1 - 111W there is really no i11D11ediate answers to some of the problems that were raised by the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Are there any other petitions? The Hon. Member for Bell Island. Mr. Speaker, I want to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Parkers Cove, in the district of Placentia West.

And I might say, Sir, by the way of explanation, although the petition was sent to me, I did discuss it with my learned friend, the member of the House of Assembly for Placentia West and indeed, Sir, I offered the member the privilege of presenting the petition, and he told me to go ahead and present it, because the petition was sent to me. The prayer of the petition, Sir, is 11 that we the undersigned people of Parkers Cove are calling on the Hon. Minister of Education and the P. C. Government to see just what steps they intend to take regarding a new school for the area. The R. C.

School Board have a school planned to be built in Rushoon by the side of the old school that is there now. This is a hazard to all children. The river rafts every spring and people who live near the river have to leave their home. They are afraid they would be swept out to sea. 11 So on behalf of seventy-five householders in Parkers Cove and sixty-nine of them say they will not let their children go to that school if it is built anywhere near that site, Is our government going to waste the taxpayers' money to build another white elephant? Why are the school boards so much against Parkers Cove?

There is plenty of land here to build a school. We have a good water supply and the school board has a sewer line in that coast. So we need a school in a central location and no way are we going ,, to send our children to Rushoon after the school closes in June. I trust that action will be taken immediately. 3422

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1139 Page 2 - mw And the petition is signed, Sir, by just about every adult resident of Parkers Cove. Now, Sir, I have discharged my duty,and I wish to present the petition, Sir, to the honourable - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Well my honourable friend from Placentia West said that if he were here he would support the petition. I have discharged my duty, Sir. I wish to present the petition to the House and have it tabled and referred to whatever department it relates. REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. H.

COLLINS (Minister of Forestry and Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I have the following regulations which should be tabled: The Newfoundland Egg Marketing Amendment Scheme, 1974, The Crop Insurance Plan Amendment Regulations, 1974, The Natural Products Marketing Newfoundland Miscellaneous Provisions Amendment Regulations, 1974, The Forest Land Management And Taxation Regulations, 1975, and The Sawmill Regulations, 1975. NOTICE OF MOTION: MR. COLLINS: I give notice, Mr.

Speaker, that on tomorrow I will ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Sawmill Act." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Social Services. HON. A. J. MURPHY (Minister of Social Services) : Mr. Speaker, there is a question on the Order Paper, Aprill, in the name of the Hon. Member for Bell Island.

What is the number of journeys involving public business which the Minister of Social Services has made since Aprill, to places outside Canada, showing for each Journey: the names of the countries visited; the date of the journeys the total cost to the government for hotel accommodations, meals, ground and air transnortation and other expenses: whether or not 3423

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1139 Page 3 - MW any memher of hie staff, or any other public servant acc0111Panied him for all or a portion of his journey, if so, what is the name of each such person, what is the title of the position each such person holds or held, what was the total cost to the government for hotel accommodation, meals, ground and air transportation and other expenses for each such person: the nature of the public business attended to on the journey? The answer, Sir, is this: If you want to, I will table it. I will not delay the House with any more of these ~tatements. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable the Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: - ---- Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Sir, if hie department is proceeding with plane to either re-classify twenty watchmen or to terminate the services of these twenty watchmen in certain parts of Newfoundland, or has the order to terminate these watchmen been recinded? 3424

April 8, 1975, Tape 1140 RH - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J, ROUSSEAU: I answered that question yesterday and I said we were taking another look at it. We will make every attempt to place the watchmen in other positions with the department and the termination ·, notices which were, I believe, effective April 20, April 30 area, those terminations will not now take place and they will be replaced if they are physically able to accept a job at the labouring classes.

If they are not physically able they will be subject to the NAPE agreement with the government in respect to finding positions within the department for them. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Would the minister indicate to the House if the watchmen have been so notified that the termination notices have been withdrawn,or will they be notified? MR. ROUSSEAU: I would assume if they have not, they will be, yes, within the next the day or so or they have already been, But they will be. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the acting, acting Premier, the honourable Minister .. of Justice.

Would the llinister c:s.re to inform the House what plans the government has to deal with record unemployment in this Province as indicated in the statistics released this morning by Statistics Canada that 45,000 Newfoundlanders are unemployed at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The answer to that question could conceivably be a long one and thus could be placed on the Order Paper. The honourable Minister of Justice. HON. A. HICI<MAN: Mr. Speaker, if I may.

The govermnent looks with a great deal of apprehension and concern over the outcome of the meetings which will take place in Ottawa tomorrow and the next day of first ministers. There has been an indication by the Prime Minister of Canada that it will be disclosed at that meeting by the honourable John Turner, the Minister of Fianance, as to what, without giving the details>so the Prime Minister says, as to what the Government of Canada plans to do with a view to controlling inflation. This little bit of 3425

April 8; 1975. Tape 1140 RH - 2 news is causing the Government of this Province,and I suspect the governments of all the Atlantic Provinces,a great deal of concern because any steps heretofore taken by the Government of Canada to curb inflation has been in the nature of cooling the economy and slowing down the economy without any, Mr. Speaker, without any reference to the economic needs of various regions of Canada. Whilst it may be very, very desirable to cool the economy in Alberta and Ontario and British Columbia, these nation policies have the undesirable effect of choking off employment in Newfoundland.

Personally, I am very apprehensive as to what is going to be indicated to the first ministers by the first B111ongst equals, the Prime Minister of Canada. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a Pupplementary question to the acting, acting Premier. Would the acting Premier, acting,acting Premier indicate what the Provincial Government is going to do about this matter? Like, could the minister be a little more specific and give us a few examples of what the government is doing? MR. HICKMAN: A billion dollar budget is not a bad step in that direction. MR. NEARY: Yes, the rich get richer. The poor get poorer. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKMAN: That is right. Like all the fellows who are working on paving the roads and such. MR.NEARY: I accept the fact, Sir, the minister cannot give me an answer. They have no plans. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Sir, would the minister responsible for potatoes, the Minister of Agriculture, would the minister care to indicate whether or not the Provincial Government is going to share in the cost of subsidizing the potato farmers in this Province or is this exclusively a federal programme? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. H. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, the $1.67 per hundred weight in support prices for the potato farmers which I announced a little while 3426

April 8, 1975. Tape 1140 H - 3 ago is being paid entirely by the Federal Government for the silllple r-eason !!hat that programme is made available to farmers in Ontario, and Quebec, in Nova Scotia, New Brunswi.ck and Prince Edward Island and tbe whole source of the problem in Newfoundland is because of the over-production in those other frovinces. I can assure t_he .hoµourable member in the meantime that this govertiment will make sure that tbe faniers of t•his Province are looked after and that they will be able to co'dlinue to operate next year. ~. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplem.entary questicm to the honc;>urable minister. Would tbe minister car~ to indicate to the House what financial assistance -the Provincial Gove~ent is goi~ to make available to these potato farmers? 3427

April I), l'H5 MR. COLLINS: Nil. MR. NEARY: No answer? MR. COLLINS: No answer. Nil. Tape 1141 (afternoon) AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is in the budget. MR. NEARY: No answer? Nothing. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker - AN HONOURABLE ME}lBER: Inaudible. IB-1 MR. NEARY: I was not invited and I was not given permission to go and that is two good reasons why I do not know anything about it. Sir, would the Minister of Health eare to indicate to the House - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: Would the Minister of Health care to indicate to the House if he is yet in a position to make a specific statement on acupuncture? MR. SPEAKER: The ho~ourable Minister of Health. HON. DR. A. ROWE (MINISTER OF HEALTH): Mr. Speaker, the subject of acupuncture is one which is causing considerable concern to the Department of Health. I received a number of letters from individuals in the Province who praised the treatment they have received from certain people who are practi~ing as acupuncturists, and I acknowledge the treatment and the benefits that they have received.

I would have to say that I think acupuncture is a two way sword. It has certain benefits and the main part of it is that it has a pain killing effect, excuse the pun. It has certain uses in anesthesia. But, against this, acupuncture,which is the placing of needles in certain parts of the body;is not a procedure which should be undertaken lightly. I think the pain that is going to be killed has to be a pain that has been definitely diagnosed. Here we get into the fact that acupuncture is a medical procedure.

What one is concerned about and alarmed about to some degree is the fact that there may well be persons who go off and take a very short and fleeting course from some diploma 3428

April 8, 1975 Tape 1141 (afternoon) IB-2 mill who will come back and set themselves up as acupuncturists. We maintain and there are discussions with the federal government and with the Canadian Medical Association and their own association, that acupuncture is a medical procedure which should be carried out by trained medical doctors or under the supervision of trained medical doctors.

We are, at the present, discl16sing with the federal body and with the other medical asseciations, the desirability of setting up a training programme for doctors who wish to get involved in acupuncture, but I would have to state that until we do come up with this training programme we will not be accepting acupuncture as a service paid for under the medical care programme. you why.

I think the reasons that I have outlined will indicate to Acupuncture is not a great panacea and our job _ is to protect the health of the people and therefore you must be very sure before we allow someone a license to practice acupuncture if they have the necessary training. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is not illegal? DR. ROWE: It is not illegal,but in the wrong hands it can be dangerous. AN HONOURABLE Mfil'BER: Well, that is like everything else, like any other kind of treatment. DR. ROWE: Pardon? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Any other kind of treatment. DR.

ROWE: Yes, but, I ~ean, assume you have a pain in your shoulder that comes from your gall bladder. You go to an acupuncturist who is not aware of that reason sticking the needle in here to help to kill your pain, but he does not help your gall bladder. You have a pain in your left shoulder which comes from angina of your heart 0 He sticks the needle in there without knowing the anatomical or the physiological concepts behind the causes of pain in your shoulder. So, it must be done by people who at least have some knowledge of diagµosis, some medical training and some special ability in this direction.

This is why they are delaying. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary to that, if I may, Mr. Speaker~ I wonder 3429

April 7, 1975 Tape 1141 (afternoon) if the minister could tell us whether or not there is an institution in North America,in fact in the world today, which issues diplomas IB-3 in acupuncture which are recognized by either the provincial government or the medical association? DR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, there is not to my knowledge a diploma mill which is recognized by either the federal or provincial governments or by the Canadian or Provincial medical association. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to that.

The minister, of course, in his profession, who was a very highly skilled man, as I have heard, as a surgeon and everything else pertaining to the medical profession, would he rec011DDend acupuncture or is there any specific ailment that - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The office will charge you for that. MR , SPEAKER: Order, please! CAPT. WINSOR: Is there any specific ailment that it has been noted to cure or give relief? DR. ROWE: Yes, Sir. On the recommendation of certain doctors, yes they do prescribe acupuncture. There are certain conditions must be related to different forms of arthritis at the moment.

There are cases 3430

April 8, 1975 Tape 1142 (Afternoon) PK - 1 where medical doctors do prescribe this treatment. The difficulty is of finding people who have been properly t~ained in applying the acupuncture. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Labrador North. MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Hon. 11inister of Industrial Development. I want to know if he will be sticking any needles in the Lower Churchill this SuIDD1er? That is not the question, Mr. Speaker. The question is, what nature of work will be taking place on the Lower Churchill, if any, this Summer? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon.

Minister of Industrial Development. HON. C. W. DOODY (MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): First, Sir, I would like to welcome the honourable member back to the House, and to congratulate him on his very healthy appearance. It certainly makes the rest of us feel well indeed to know that he is joining us once more. MR. WOODWARD : You should come with me some time. MR. DOODY: I would very much like to take advantage of the kind offer. Thank you. MR. WOODWARD: Inaudible. MR.

DOODY: I can also assure him that the Government of Newfoundland have absolutely no intention of sticking needles into the Lower Churchill this Summer. As to the nature and scope and size of the work that will take place, we are not in a position to say exactly what it will be now. There will certainly be some contracts let hopefully beginning in Jtme and work will process from there.

But as the honourable member knows,and as t~is House has been informed,the full nature and scope of the work will depend on a number of factors, the putting together of the financial package, the various studies that have yet to come in, the environmental impact study,for instance,which is not, as far as I understand, been fully assessed although, I think, it is very nearly reached that stage. But there will be a considerable amount of work done this Summer starting in June, but the exact nature and amount of it I am not in a position to say at the present time. 3431

April 8, 1975 Tape 1142 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR.WOODWARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister tell the House approximately how many people will be hired on the job this Summer? MR. DOODY: No is the answer to the first part of the question, Sir, It would be rather difficult to ga~ge or estimate the number of people who will be involved in it. I am sorry, much I would like to - MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR.. NEARY: Mr . Speaker, if I may get back to the MJ.nister of Health again for a moment, Sir.

I wonder if the minister could tell us what is happening now concerning legalizing denturists in the Province? MR.. SPEAKER: The Hon. MJ.nister of Health. DR. A. ROWE: The Select Committee of the House a year or so ago brought in their report to the effect that denturism could be legalized in the Province, and there is now a Committee under Mr. Geo,;ge Parsons who are looking into the regulations which should apply. And here again it is not a question that is straightforward legislation.

The Province of Nova Scotia has had legislation on the books for the last year and a half, but they cannot come to grips with the regulations under which the denturist will operate. It is not a very straightforward matter because how much training should a denturist have? How much training do the people have who are already practicing within the Province? Should we have a grandfather clause? How will they be examined? Should they do complete dentures, partial dentures? I can only tell him that the CoDDnittee have looked into this very closely.

I was asked a question recently whether it will be ready for this session of the House and I said no. But hopefully it may be ready for the Fall session. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Would the minister care to inform the House what is happening concerning Shea Heights becoming a part of the City of St. John's? MR.. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HON. A. B. PECKFORD (MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): Mr.

Speaker, there has been some discus•ion in the last two or three weeks, I suppose it goes back even further than that, concerning whether Shea 3432

April 8, 1975 Tape 1142 (Afternoon) PK - 3 Heights should be part within the boundaries of the City of St. John' s . Where it stands right how is we await the final reports of the Henley Counnission on the St. John's Urban Region, after which time we will assess just exactly what kinds of jurisdittions should be set up for the whole area. Of course, it also awaits to some degree the Whalen Royal Commission Report which is now being printed. But, I · think more particularly it is waiting upon Henley's final recounnendations. I am aware of the problems there .

And the whole business of jurisdiction, how many jurisdictions within the whole St. John's region has to be assessed some time very soon, because you have problems with development control, building regulations and this kind of thing. And in some areas near the city the servicing aspect is linked directly to the City of St. John's . AB HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. PECKFORD: It is very close,

whereas further reaches like Petty Harbour and Pouch Cove are not - you do not have the same problems. So that is where it stands, although the answer is very vague. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the Minister of Municipal Affairs, Sir, indicate to the House whether or not the urban renewal prograunne that was implemented on Shea Heights will be one hundred per cent co~plete before any decision is taken to let Shea Heights go under the City of St. John's? MR. SPEAKER: MR. PECKFORD: The Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Yes,it would. Yes. 3433

April 8, 1975 Tape no .1143 Page 1 - mw As a matter of fact I think the urban renewal scheme, as it relates to Shea Heights, will be completed. As far as dollars go, all the money - I got it here somewhere in my notes here now - this year, I think the only outstanding one is Mandy Pond where there is some funding yet this year to be made, perhaps funding to the tune of a couple of hundred thousand dollars. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. PECKFORD: Well I do not know if the bridge on somebody's house will be finished,or veranda or something like that. MR.

NEARY: All the housing,roads, sidewalks and everything will be complete? MR. PECKFORD: You know, that is a loaded question. You know it depends on what you mean by complete. for all intents and purposes from my point of view it will be completed. But whether there is a sidewalk or gutter part - you know. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Labrador South. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Bon. Minister of Transportation and Communications, two questions actually.

First of all could the honourable minister tell the House whether or not his department has been in consultation with the CNR with regard to improvement of their coastal boat service on the coast of Labrador this summer? The second question concerns the Straits of Belle Isle ferry, whether or not or how plans are progressing? Can he at this stage make a progress report on the proposed replacement of the ferry terminal on the Labrador side of the Straits? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications? HON. J. ROUSSEAU (Minister of Transportation and Communications): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, On the second question, not at this point in time, but as soon as I do have the information, I will certainly relay it to the honoureble member. I will check with the officials just to see what the on - going . situation there is in respect to the Straits. 3434

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1143 Page 2 - mw In respect to the coastal service, as a matter of fact this morning I had some talks with CN. We had been briefed, I guess it was about three or four weeks ago,the Minister of Tourism and myself by CN on their ferry services that will be operating within the whole Province this year. Of course, particular interest in my own personal talks with them was on the Labrador situation as well, and they have assured me that they are going to make every effort to improve the service.

They have indicated to me, as I recall, that where there was a volume that they would try to provide extra boats when the volume was there to provide them. So right now I am not in a position to say exactly what the service will be and this is exactly the point I brought up to CN this morning in talking with them,that if I happened to get a question in the House, and this question has not been fixed,by the way,between us because I did not know it was going to be asked, and I brought that up.

I told CN unless they tell us what is going on I am in the situation where I do have some information but I do not know if I can release it or not, because the information we did have two or three weeks ago, whenever we had their scheme for the summer, there were still certain adjustments to be made and all the plans were not finalized. I did ask this morning that they would give us that information, and as soon as they do I will make it available on which boats are going to be stationed where end what the service will be during this summer.

But we certainly will continue to dialogue with CN in respect to the ferry situation in the whole Province and then seek every improvement we can. But we will certainly be very pleased if CN would undertake to give us the information on a concrete basis so that we could pass it on to interested groups or interested people who may be interested in a particular phase of the service. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Labrador South. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question on the matter of the CN ferry service. Is the honourable minister satisfied that CN is aware of all 3435

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1143 Page 3 - 111W the reconmendations of the Labrador Royal Conmission Report and whether or not they are actively working toward implementat!on of those recommendations? MR. ROUSSEAU: They are. And we are hoping to get together with them again in the very near future. We have on-going talks between the Division of Transportation and CN. The co-operation and the rapport is good in the sense that the information we seek is available when we seek it. But, you know, there is no on-going dialogue. We have to go look for this sort of thing.

We will continue to press,! can assure the honourable member,for improved services on the coast of Labrador as well as the rest of the Province, especially on the coast of Labrador in respect to the service. I think when the service is announced, and again I cannot recall the exact details, I think that the honourable member will see an improvement over last year's service and hopefully improvement. We will continue to impress for an improvement, and I would hope that again in respect to special trips to Goose Bay with the larger boats will be continued-again as well. They have suggested - AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.ROUSSEAU: Well, I am 3436

April 8, 1975 Tape No. 1Hl4 NM - 1 hopeful. I cannot yet until I get the actual details from them,but we are not in a position to really. But we did bring that up to them that the bigger boats in the Goose Bay - Happy Valley area,when the volU111e is there rather than have it wait over until the end of the season, that if the volume is there that they would hopefully continue the use of the Carson or whatever boat is used for larger and also for the improvement of the actual Labrador coastal ferry service.

So we will continue to press that and as 100n as they give me the information I certainly would make it available to both member from Eastern Labrador. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: A question for the Minister of Transportation; would he indicate whether he has had a letter recently from the council, the Town Council at Gaultois, in connection with the need for a ferry service and in particular would he indicate whether some decision has been reached by government on this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and COD1Dunications. MR.

ROUSSEAU: The happy hour: Yes, we did. I received a letter within the past day or two. As a matter of fact just before I came up to the House it was passed along. The Town of Gaultois did make a request whether we would subsi4ize a ferry service and indicating whether there was a boat available down there or not,and it is under consideration. We will take a look at the situation and we will be replying directly to the town. I think the Town Clerk's or the Mayor's name was on the letter. But it was just received within the past day or two.

It has been acted on, About an hour or so ago it was passed along just to get some indication of it and we will be replying to them as soon as we are in a position to do so. MR. SIMMONS: Is the minister saying that no decision has been made on the subsidy yet? All HON. MEMBER: Pardon. 3437

April 8, 1975 Tape No. 1144 NM - 2 MR. SIMMONS: No decision has been made on the subsidy for the service yet? Well, Mr. Speaker, for background of course, this is not the first the minister has heard about this. MR. ROUSSEAU: Could I answer the question on that? MR. SIMMONS: Okay. MR. ROUSSEAU: No decision has been made yet, no. ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House resolve iCself into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Chairman, before we get into the committee, can the Chairman advise the co111111ittee just how many hours we have expired or how many hours we have left. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Thirty-nine hours and fifty-two minutes have expired. Consequently we have thirty-five hours and eight minutes left. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN:(15O1-O1) The Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, first of all let me point out, Sir, that it is not our fault on this honourable side of the House - CAPT. WINSOR: Re has not called the estimates yet. MR. NEARY: Yes he has. It is not our fault, Sir, on this honourable side of the House that the discussion on the estimtes is restricted to seventy-five hours. That is not our fault, Sir.

We would like to stay here the whole Summer and discuss the estimates. MR. MURPHY: Wasting time. MR. NEARY: Not wasting time, Sir, not wasting time ·: Trying to develop new ideas, offer the administration positive 1 constructive criticism and to try to get the administration to realize, Sir, that in the field of industrial development we have to try to get this Province back on the rails. Mr. Chairman, prior to January 18, 1972 when the PC Administration took over the Government of this Province, Sir, Newfoundland was moving forward in the field of industrial relations at a very rapid pace. AN HON.

MEMBER: Irulusttial development? 3438

April 8, 1975 Tape No. 1144 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: Industrial development, economic development, at a very rapid pace. Although there were people in the Province that may not have agreed with some of the policies, with some of the incentives that had to be used to attract industry into Newfoundland and some of the concessions that had to be made to attract industry to Newfoundland, I think that everybody, Sir, everybody agreed that it was no easy task to attract industry to Newfoundland. You almost had to give away the whole Province to get industry to come into this Province. And there are people who argue that Mr.

Smallwood especially went too far. But, Sir, one thing that we have to concede, and it should he as plain as the nose on your face, is that Mr. Smallwood and his Administration did have some kind of a policy for industrial development in the ~rovince. People may have disagreed with his develop or perish policy but, Sir, Mr. Smallwood, despite all his mistakes, despite all his faults, despite all the errors in judgement that were made, did manage to keep this Province moving forward at a rapid pace in the field of economic development and it seems, Sir, that after January 18, 1971 the Province ran out of gas.

They ran out of steam, -she stalled. MR. DOODY: It did not run out of gas,boy. MR. NEARY: Ran out of gas and it has not, as I indicated yesterday, Sir, in this honourable Rouse, Sir, has not been one new idea, not one new industry,whether it is a heavy industry, medium sized industry, small sized industry, not one aew industry has been crea~ed by this honourable crowd since they formed the administration. And the minister yesterday, Sir, amused the House by getting up and trying to take a little credit for the shipyards down at Marystown by telling us that, oh it was operated in a sloppy way.

It was not being operated in a businesslike way and it took the minister, I was going to say for pork barrels but I will not be that unkind, it took the minister - MR. DOODY: Be kind. JIR. NEARY: and his administration, it took them to straighten out the shipyards down in Marystown. Well, Sir, everybody in this Province 3439

April 8, 1975 Tape No. 1144 NM - 4 knows that one of the things that we did before we got tossed out on our ear was to bring into Newfoundland a gentleman by the name of Mr. Rannie and it was Mr. Rannie and not the minister and that honourable crowd over there that straightened out Marys town. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Plans for expansion! If we had stayed in power you should have seen the plans for expansion that we had for Marystown, that were cancelled by the administration when they took over. As a matter of fact, this administration thought so highly of Mr.

Rannie that they gave him a big dinner down in Marystown before he retired. That is how highly they thought of him, a gentleman who was hand-picked by Mr. Smallwood and the former Liberal Administration. That is the man who did the job in Marystown. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Rannie went down to Roaches Line before he left Newfoundland and the honourable minister should hear what he said about the honourable crowd on the government benches. Then, Mr.

Chairman, we heard the minister, Sir, trying to get a little mileage on Northern Electric setting up a little plant over here on O'Leary Avenue to assemble telephone switchboards and telephones and that sort of thing. I doubt if the minister has ever been inside the building but I have and I have seen these ladies over there, twenty or twenty-five or thirty of them, doing this tedious work, Well, Sir, that little operation employing twenty-five or thirty people would have come to Newfoundland anyway. The minister did net tell us that N3rthern Electric was a branch of Bell - MR. DOODY: I did, MR.

NEARY: No, the minister did not, Sir, a branch of the Bell Telephone Company and so is Newfoundland Telephone. MR. DOODY: Hurry up and sit down. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I would not try to get any mileage out of that if I were the honoarable minister. That was going to be done anyway. They 3440

April 8, 1975 Tape No. 1144 NM - 5 went down to the Manager of the Avalon Telephone Company and said, look Mr. Manager, why do you not set up your own switchboards and put your own telephones together in Newfoundland. He said, oh yes, yes, sure we are going to do that. They were going to do it anyway. 344f

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1145 Page 1 - mw The minister might have happened to find out about it through the public relations. They were trying to do a little public relations for themselves down there - twenty-five or thirty jobs, thirty at the most. And then this mobile home factory down in Argentia - AN HON. MEMBER: What is wrong with it? MR.. BEARY: What is wrong with it?

Not a thing in the world wrong with it except the minister went down last year one time and opened it up, got an official opening, and the minister made his first major speech as Minister of Industrial Development, and then they went out and had a big cocktail party after, and then, Sir, within forty-eight hours .- MR. DOODY: There was no cocktail party. MR. NEARY: There was a cocktail party, Sir. It was flowing like water, I was told, down there. And then the minister, forty-eight hours later, Sir, he must have got a short circuit in his magic wand.

After telling us that there was going to be 500 or 600 people employed in this factory at Argentia, within forty-eight hours there were rumblings that the plant was running into trouble. And in less than a week, in less than a week, they laid off just about every worker that they had down there. And there were rum.ours for a while down there that they were going to put all the furniture and all the television sets and all the other things they had to go into these trailers, these mobile homes, they were going to auction it off.

They reduced the operation to a skeleton crew, because they could not sell their homes. Nobody had thought about marketing. Nobody had sat down and thought the thing through to see if they could compete with mobile homes being brought in from the mainland. And they were reduced to a skeleton crew. Just the watchmen,that is all they have there. And then the minister had the gall yesterday in this 3442

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1145 Page 2 - mw honourable House to get up and tell us that this is one of the major accomplishments of his administration. And as far as I know right at this moment, Sir, the only staff they have down there, and I have not been down now for about, oh, I have not been there for about a month I guess, the only staff they have there at this moment is the watchmen staff, a skeleton crew, fifty-four people. That is a long way off 560 or 600 as the minister forecast back when he waved his magic wand, when he went down to open up - MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR.

NEARY: He could not wait to get his name into print, to get his picture on the television. He had the press invited down, a big party, opening up this giant, this great factory. I would like to see the factory prosper, Sir, Pyramid Homes. I am all for it. I would like to see it prosper. Pyramid Homes have come on their hands and knees to this administration to get regulations passed, to get development, land development undertaken so that they can sell their homes to our local people. That has not been done. I doubt if the regulations have been changed yet.

There is no sign of it in this session of the Bouse. ffe HON. MEMBER: They are in Justice now, MR. NEARY: They are in Justice now. Ob, almost a year later we find out from the minister that the legislation, the regulations are in the Justice Department now. How long will the Justice Department keep them there? MR. DOODY: Not very long, MR. NEARY: Not very long. In the meantime, Sir, 200 or 300 Newfoundlanders are either on unemployment insurance or are on welfare. That is how interested the minister is in getting this Pyramid Home operation in Argentia moving forward.

The officials of that company are frustrated trying to get the administration to move, move, move! MR. DOODY: You were talking to them? MR. NEARY: Ah, Mr. Speaker, the minister knows I got JDOre pipelines 3443

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1145 Page 3 - mw than he can count on his fingers and on his toes. It may prosper, Sir, I hope it does. But before it does the administration are going to have to co-operate. They are going to have to buy a lot of these homes, set up these trailer parks - AN HON. MEMBER: That is what we are about to do. MR. NEARY: That is what they sre about to do, Well 1why did they not do it? The operation was only there two years, and they have been stock piling their homes. MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: It was not there two years. Well,close on two years. It was one year. MR.

NEARY: It is there over a year, Sir. It is there going on two years. And the whole thing will flop. It will fail. They will have to pull out of it altogether. And then they had the nerve to critici~e Joey because the shoe factory over in Barbour Grace failed. AN HON. MEMBER:_(Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the minister also boasted yesterday about - you did not take that propaganda we had there 7did you? - the wonderful brochures and the wonderful publicity that has gone out to all parts of the world, gone out to industrialists and businessmen and entrepreneurs all over the world.

Well, Sir, since yesterday I had a chance to examine some of this propaganda. I must say that the photography and the printing is very well done by our local people, and I am certainly glad that it is our local people who are doing this now. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I am not going to be too critical of these pieces of propaganda. But I want to draw the committee's.attention to the fact that there is nothing new in this propaganda, Sir.

Every single item in this propaganda can be found in a little booklet published by Joey back in 1971, I think it was, "To You With Affection." Every single bit of it that is where it came from. It is too bad that 3444

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1145 Page 4 - mw Joey did not have a copyright on it, Sir. Every bit of information in here - and I was looking for the one that I wanted - I cannot find it - but anywhere, Sir, it is there somewhere. They had this globe, this circle showing Newfoundland on the map and the number of miles from London and the number of miles from New York. It is idential, Sir. MR. DOODY: It has changed, MR. NEARY: No, it has not changed. It is identical to what we saw in "To You With Affection." AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Ah, it is very, very funny, very funny indeed.

Joey's technique, Sir, for industrial development must not have been ~oo bad after all when this honourable crowd copied almost word for word, used some of his diagrams and illustrations in their booklet. Now, Sir, yesterday - oh, here it is, here it is, look, taken from ''To Your With Affection." SOME BON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: A global map,that is all, a global map. Now, Sir, let me deal with that now, let me deal with that global map, that is all. Sir, a global map, they say, that is all. Listen to this, Mr. Chairman, listen to this; One of the things they talk about in this pamphlet " is ports.

And I will read their pamphlet. Port facilities in Newfoundland are spacious and protected and have the capability of becoming the base of operation for offshore service -· industry. Possibly " the greatest asset of many Newfoundland ports is their deep water. What II does Joey say about that? Year round norts offering inexpensive transport to the great world markets have been developed through the direct assistance of the federal government in areas with abundant ,, land available for industrial development. Let us see what they say about people and labour. Listen to this. This is theirs.

Then we II will see what Joey says. A competent and reliable labour force with unlimited experience in marine conditions peculiar to Newfoundland 3445

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1145 Page 5 - mw is available to the industry. The labour force is supported and often trained by a province-wide system of technological and ,, vocational educational centres. What does Joey say about that, about II people? Proceeding rapidly through an effective programme of vocational and technical and university education is the re-orientation of a people who for four centuries eked out a scant living in II an often heartbreaking strugp;le with a grudging nature. That is what Joey said. It is much better. If I were an entrepreneur or a businessman I would buy Joey's.

And, Sir, you can go on and on. Power, they talk about power. Joey talks about power. Newfoundland's location, financial assistance - MR.DOODY: He still talks about power - MR. NEARY: Sir, the kind of power he was talkins about last night, if I were the honourable minister, I would be very concerned about it, because he is likely to get a bit of a shock. MR. DOODY: What was he saying about the honourable gentleman across the way? MR. NEARY: I know the honourable minister cannot stand criticism. If he cannot stand the heat, let him get out of the kitchen, Sir.

I got a few more jolts to give the honourable minister yet. 3446

April 8, 1975. Tape 1146 RH - 1 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, yesterday I spoke briefly about the Gross Provincial Product and I know the minister does not understand this kind of language, Sir, but everything in this Province, all the good things, if we get any more good things in this Province, will only come, Sir, as a result of our being able to maintain an annual in­ crease.of eight, ten or twelve per cent on our Gross Provincial Pro­ duct. Now, Sir, let us see what has happened. The minister said to me well, can you go back a few years and give us some examples.

Well, last night I did a little homework and I came up with some figures that might interest the minister and the Committee. I want to make it clear, Mr. Chairman, I want to make it clear that these percentages that I am going to give take into account the rate of inflation. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: And I did not give the minister the answer. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: - did not have a chance to check it out - MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, in 1961, taking into consideration now, the inflationary pressures, the real growth and so forth, 1961, Sir, 7.7 per cent.

That was the increase in our Gross Provincial Product. That was net. 1962 - Pardon me! 1962 was 7.7 per cent; 1963, 6.9 per ceat; 1964, 9.2 per cent; 1964, 7.0 per cent; 1966, 7.7 per cent. In 1967, I do not know what happened that year, Sir. We had a bit of a slump. That may have been the year of tight money, 4.0 per cent. That was a low year. We had been on a steady upswing since Confederation or since 1961. We had some bad years in the early years of Confederation.

In 1968, Sir, 6. 4 per cent; 1969, 7.5 per cent and so forth and all the way down the line until we get down to 1971, the last year of the Liberal achninistration, 1971, our increase taking into account the inflationary factors, our increase in the Gross Provincial Product was 7.6 per cent. In 1972, the first year the Tory administration took over, 4.5 per cent and in 1973, 4.9 per cent, their second year; in 1974, 4.2 per cent. We are going down. We are going in reverse. We are sliding down hill. 3447

April 8, 1975. Tape 1146 RH - 2 In 1975, Sir, according to the Minister of Finance that brought down his budget "in this honourable House on March 12, 1975, Mr. Minister of Finance, the Member for Fortune, in his 1975 budget said that this year, according to his estimates, the Gross Provincial Product taking into account all the inflationary factors would be 2.0 per cent, 2.0. Now, Sir, that is not a very bright picture, is it?

It is a very dismal outlook as a matter of fact, very dismal, and I would suggest, Sir, that we will be lucky in this Province if we can produce a 2.0 per cent net increase in our aroas !rovincial Product this year at the rate we are going. I would say, I would be more inclined to think, Mr. Chairman, that it is going to be a minus, it is going to be negative and that is why, Mr. Chairaan - I hate to sound like the evangelist talking about productivity. The minister made no reference to it. Somebody has to latch on to it, crusade the cause because there is a cause there .that needs to be fought.

There is a crusade there, a battle that needs to be won. We have in this Province, Sir, whether we care to admit it or not, whether we care to face up to it man fashion, whether we have the courage to say it inside the House, outside the House, we have a bad reputation for productivity in this Province and this, Mr. Chairman, Your Honour knows this, I am not an economist, this will discourage industrialists and businessmen and entrepreneurs from coming into this Province.

All they have to do is look at our record of work interruptions, strikes,whether they are illegal or legal, work stoppages, and they will :llllmediately see, Sir, that we have a very poortrack record and we are going to have to do something about it, Not what Mr. Mercer of the Board of Trade says we should do about it He turns around and polarizes the situation and blames it on certain trade unions for trying to get their share of the pie, trying to get increases to cope with the cost of living, to better look after their families; not to blame it on anybody because I think, Mr.

Chairman, that both parties are to blame, both labour and management are to blame, Sir. If government and if this House and if the people of this Province 3448

April 8, 1975. Tape 1146 RH - 3 are going to become production oriented, change their attitudes,to get a bigger slice of the pie, Sir, then we are going to have to pro­ duce more. We are going to have to make a bigger pie, so that every­ body can get a bigger slice. That is just simple, ordinary common sense, Sir, simple economics,and the minister does not deal with that at all in his remarks. Perhaps now I can provoke him into joining with me. Maybe we will become two high priests.

Maybe we will become the evangelists going around this Province talking about doing some­ thing about our low productivity, not blaming it on anybody, trying to find solutions. Blaming it will not solve the problem and I hope Mr. Mercer and the Board of Trade can make a better contribution than that instead of coming to the government and reconnnendiDg ways to put the boets to the labour movement, trade union movement.

What is wrong with setting up my productivity council 1 that I talked about in this honourable House,where you have representatives of labour and management and other sectors of society to sit down together to try to find solutions to this great problem that we have in this Province. But this is probably not the only reason, Sir, we have not been able to attract industry to Newfoundland. The main reason, I would suggest, Sir, is that the present administration have not been able to do the selling job that needs to be done.

Joey himself was a super salesman who could go around this world and sell people on coming to have a look at Newfoundland, to set up a business or an industry, but this honourable crowd, Sir, seems to have lost the art for selling. Selling, roll up your sleeves and get out and sell Newfoundland 1 That is what you have to do, Sir. Business people and industrialists are not going to beat a path to the minister's door. They have to be sold on the idea of coming here.

Sure, we have the best deep water ports in the world and we have the profit potential and we have the people and we have the power, but, Sir, we have to put together a package that we can sell to industrialists and businessmen because they will only come here if they know they can make a profit. In this selling job there is no reason, Sir, in my opinion, why the government or the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation could not 3449

April 8, 1975. Tape 1146 RH - 4 join with industrialists and business people in financing the setting up of industries here, the same as the Government of Canada did with this Telesat - what is that company they set up? What is the name of it? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Telestat. MR. NEARY: Telesat. No reason why the Provincial Government could not do the same thing. Now, Mr. Chairman, before I take my seat I want to deal with one other aspect of this negative attitude of the government towards indus­ trial development. We saw the fruits of that today, Sir.

We saw the results today when Statistics Canada announced that 45,000 of our fellow Newfoundlanders are unemployed through no fault of their own and cannot find jobs. They have a hopeless •ituation. I say, Mr. Chairman, what a difference three years makes • .. Qnly three years ago, Sir, under a Liberal Government in this Province we were forging rapidly ahead. We were moving forward. We were going steadily on, steadily ahead.

Not only was our Gross Provincial Produce, as I indicated there a few moments increasing year after year after year, on the upswing since 1961,but we had the lowest unemployment rate we ever had in our history, 3450

April !l, 1975 Tape 1147 (afternoon) IB-1 What a difference three years make~ Sir. Three years later under Tory Administration we have record unemployment, 45,000 Newfoundlanders unemployed and this is despite, Mr. Chairman, a boast of the Minist .er of Finance that we have $1 billion budget in this Province. So, Sir, the cause of unemployment, this record unemployment we ha·ve in this Province, is obvious.

The Progressive Conservative Administration over the past three years, Sir, has simply not done anything positive about industrial development in the Province, other than going down to Come-By-Chance after all the criticism of that project and joining in the fun and ~ames of opening that great project down there in Placentia Bay, the Come-By-Chance oil refinery. Mr. Chairman, I have no objections to the minister and his colleagues trying to get a little mileage out of that oil refinery,! am so proud of it. It is too bad we could not stay in to put the second one there.

God only knows - nobody else will ever know, Sir - the real story of the battle that was fought over that oil refinery. I sat there highly amused the day the Premier stood up on the platform with the Queen E IT in the background making his little dedication speech, telling us how wonderful this project was, what a great thing it was for Newfoundland. AN HONOURABLE :MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I am not wasting time of the House, Sir, I am making some pretty good points. It does not make any - we did not cut the time down to seventy-five hours.

We are satisfied to stay here forever if we can only persuade this crowd, this honourable crowd, Sir, to start the great march forward that was stopped in 1972 on January 18. We have before us today, Sir, the Department of Industrial Development's budget which is under debate. As far as I can see, Mr.

Chairman, there is not a lick or a promise of anything firm for the future, not a plan, Sir, not a proposal, not a hint of a large or a medium or even a small sized new industry to be established in this Province in the foreseeable future let alone in the next twelve months to give jobs to our record number of unemployed and to get our _provincial 3451

April 8, 1975 Tape 1147 (afternoon) IB-2 productivity back on the rails, Mr. Chairman, they used to criticize Joey for all his travels around the world. Well, Sir, with all the globe trotting that the honourable the Premier, the Minister of Industrial Development and all their colleagues have done over the past three years, Sir, and all their cabinet huddies have done, it has not resulted, Mr. Chairman - at least Joey got the odd industry going. Every industry we have here practically since Confederation you can trace it back to Joey. He got a few going. There were a few failed. He got a few off the ground.

But, this honourable crowd, Sir, with all their globe trotting have not been able to attract one single new industry to Newfoundland and yet our provincial debt has escalated by over fifty per cent,as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out yesterday. Our provincial debt at the moment is $1. 7 billion and climbing. Mr. Chairman, I will wind up on this note. It is too bad that the honourable the Premier is not in his seat to hear this. In my opinion, Sir, in my opinion and the opinion of a lot of ordinary people of this Province, that only a provincial election, Sir, will cure this situation.

Only the turning out of this present inept administration, Sir, holds any hope at all for restoring the upward trend in our provincial productivity and to create jobs, a march forward that was started after Confederation and that was interrupted a few years ago, three years ago, to be precise, on January 18, 1972 when my honourable members opposite formed the Progressive Conservative Administration. The only cure for it, Sir, is to tum out this honourable crowd. Let us have a provincial general election.

Let us have it before the end of May so that the people of this Province will be given a chance to get into the polling booths and mark their X for men who are dedicated, who are prepared to take off their coats, roll up their sleeves and start the great march forward again that was interrupted three years ago when the Tories managed somehow or other to con the Newfoundland people into voting for them rather than the people's party, the Liberal Party. 'MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burgeo-LsPoile. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I am not in a very good voice today having the 3452

April 8, 1975 Tape 1147 (afternoon) IB-3 flu as I do, but after what I have \istened to for the last two days from the Member from Hermitage, yesterday in particular, and today the Member for Bell Island. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. EVANS: Yes, I would like to come up, boy, yes. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. EVANS: Oh, I would be proud of it, proud of it.

Yesterday some of the remarks made by the Member from Hermitage regarding the great announcements that were made by this government - for to have the face to get up and talk about great announcements after what we heard for so many years from the great dictator, the great announcments, oil wells galore, salt mines galore, ~illions made the same night, already out in the bank. We were lucky in these instances because nothing was done about it. Then you take the ones that were started, like the rubber factory over in Holyrood. Two carloads of rubber boots went up to Toronto, all for the left foot.

The next shipment was on the siding for a couple of days. There was a queer smell emanating from the cars. MR. SIMMONS: Were you in that shipment? MR. EVANS: I was not. You were 1in a small rubber bag. When they examined the freight cars - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Come on "Al", get sense. MR. EVANS: Keep quiet. Keep quiet. You are pnnoying me. When they examined the freight cars,they found there was nothing on the boots only rubber. I think they had coated them with Adler's chocolate instead of rubber.

Anyway, we get down to some of the things that were mentioned concerning the present day by the Member from Hermitage. He 11poke about a hardwood plant. in Bay D'Espoir. Well, the party of which he is a member built the original hardwood plant at Donovans where you could not find enough wood to make a match. There 3453

April 8, 1975 Tape 1147 {a,fte~oon) IB-4 was oak brought in from West Africa. I saw it myself. That was in the early 1950's • 1952. That opened :In 1952. Why would a gove,:nmen ,t put a plant in Donovans. a hardwood plant, wben there was lots of hardwood in Ray D'Espoir? Why was it not done then? Why do we have to spend a double alliOunt_of money, triple amount of money today with the cos .t of escalation,to build it there when it should have been built by the previoU$ administration? Another point brought up by the Member from Hermitage :In regard to a fish plant in Bay D'Espoil:.

Now, that is something that I have to take a different stand on. I would like to see illdustry anywhere, P,ay D1 Espoir, :Mr, Chaiz,ull, or any other pa:rt of this Province, but there are reasons why you could not have a fish plant in Bay l)'Espoir, Ye•rs ago,when they had sawmills there, if you went in Bay D'Espoir in the summer on a hot day where the water is about half fresh and half salt, 3454

April 8, 1975 Tape 1148 (Afternoon) PK - 1 the stench from the sawdust that went in the water was enough to take your breath. Yau can imagine what it would be if you had a fish plant)with offal from a plant, because there is bound to be a certain amount of offal going into the water rega _rdless of what type of operation you are carrying out.

I maintain that there would be only one reason why any government would advance funds to put a fish plant in an area such as Bay D'Espoir would be to destroy the whole area, would be mass gen6cide,r would say, because you would poison everybody from Bay D'Espoir to Grand Falls. Today we hear so many complaints from the Opposition regarding the unemployment picture here in this Province.

That is being experienced not only in this Province today, not only in Canada but all over the civilized world,except in cases where people are working at slave labour - And that is contributing to a lot of our ills right here in this Province today, particularly in the fishing industry as I pointed out a few days ago. When our fishing industry today is down to the lowest pitch that it could is mainly due to the fact that slave labour is bringin~ in fish from Asian countries at prices which are less than half that ours cost to go into the U.S. market.

And we must not get away from the fact that Newfoundland will always have a fair share of seasonal unemployment unless we become highly industrialized, which, of course, is the policy of this government in days to come. But at the present time it is very difficult for anyone to maintain the level we already have 1much less improving it. Of course, that is what we are expected to do by bringing in cheap power here when we can bring it in from the Lower Churchill, and thereby we hope to attract industry. But there are so many causes beyond our control.

You take my district for instance, Burgeo-LaPoile on the Southwest Coast. We never had any unemployment. But for the past two Winters we have had drift ice in, our people could not fish. We have had quite a large share of unemployment in that area. No one is responsible for that. It is

an act of nature. You can talk about your Productivity Council but it is going to take a lot more than Productivity Councils or any direct act by government 3455

April 8, 1975 Tape 1148 (Afternoon) PK - 2 to cure the present ills we have today regarding unemployment. Take the motor industry, one of the greatest industries we have in North America. Today the industry is nearly dead. People today cannot afford to buy even the smaller cars which most of the companies are producing rather than the large car which everyone wanted and would buy today if they could afford to. So we are not the only ones who are hurting. This governmentbroughtin plans which were very highly intentioned, and we have done quite a bit to stabilize industry here in this Province.

When we took over the Refinery at Come-by-Chance was under construction. But I am doubtful if it would ever have been completed if we had not taken over this government when we did, because anyone t1lo knows anything of the facts will recall that that would have cost the government and the people of this Province $160 million plus to be able to get that refinery underway. We did not get a cent for the land, not even a bit of provincial sales tax accrued to the government from it.

Whatever profits were made by the company once it started operations would have been theirs, and after fifteen years the company, Shaheen Refining Company could have bought the whole issue for $2,000. And then somebody looks up and tells me, some of the members opposite, that Joey was a great director of industrial development. I think 3456

April 8, 1975 Tape No. 1149 NM - 1 if you had to go to Waterford Bridge Hospital and examine every patient 1n there you would never have gotten another one to have made that deal that he made there. Then in regard to the linerboard mill which 1not being as successful as we would wish it to be is still a long way ahead of what it would have been, I do not think ever it would have been completed, with the mess that was there when we took ov.er, Probably if we could get Mr. Vardy back he might be able to tell us a bit more.

But, then the Member for Bell Island gets up and he says they get this government out and get the other crowd back again - which crowd is he talking about, the Roberts crowd or the Smallwood crowd? I do not think ever they will work together. That is too much for anyone to hope. And God forbid that ever the people of this Brovince will ever have to go through another nightmare in regard to instability and unconcern, and probably I could use words a lot harsher 1 in connectian with the people who dragged this Province down to the depths that we took it over in 1971. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Labrador North. MR.

WOODWARD: Must I go on, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman, to make a few remarks on industrial development and the minister's salary, maybe the minister can tell the committee when he rises again in his place, what future aspects will apply to future developments as a result of the harnessing of the Lower Churchill.

I think the questions that are in the people's minds and particularly in the minds of people who live in that particular area, there is a great mistrust of the present administration, the fact that the emphasis has been placed largely on exporting power 1 or taking power from the Lower Churchill,if and when it is developed, down to the Island of Newfoundland. It is easy to say that development will take place in the Goose Bay - Happy Valley-Lake Melville area or indeed any other part of the mainland portion of the Province called Labrador. Then again it is equally as easy, Mr.

Chairman, once you have a carrier,~ traasmission line, and the power is taken away from that central location and placed 3457

April 8, 1975 Tape No. 1149 NM - 2 at another location in an area such as the South Coast, the Port au Port Peninsula where you have some ad,,_tages such as some deep harbours or some future development. I understand that the Lehigh people that were mixed up with BRINCO in the cement development and I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that you must be very disappointed about that industry going by the board, that proposed industry going by the board.

I understand, according to the papers this morning, that Lehigh have withdrawn their interest from BRINCO and now that the programme is shelved for a period of time on the cement development in the Port au Port area. We, Sir, are equally as concerned about what does happ~n, and it depends largely on the attitudes of government, once the power is in turn shipped from Labrador and you can use that power, consame it, in other areas such as the Island portion of the Province, what incentives will there be offered to industry to relocate in Labrador?

Well because of the fact that we have cheap power and do we have to bear the cost of tranmission of power? If the power is immediately available within a short distance can we sell industry, offer industry cheap power to develop industry in that area or will we establish one particular rate for electricity that is coming out of the Lower Churchill and the Upper Churchill? If that is the case then, Mr. Speaker, there will not be any advantage offered to people to relocate or industry to relocate in the Labrador area.

WP. have not yet seen any way to break down the isolation, to get the all-around shipping into the Port of Goose Bay. There is some expensive research going on with regards as to how do you get through the ice and extend the shipping season, but that is the big deterrent as far as development of irdustry, particularly if you are dealing with large masses of material or shipment of goods, large volumes of goods from the area, 3458

Jipril 8 • 1975 Tape no. 1150 Page 1 - mw Maybe when the minister speaks again, Mr. Chairman, he can tell just what the policy of his government is in order to attract industry to the area where the hydro will be developed, The ocher area· of concern, Mr. Chairman, is the BRINCO development of uranium. What are the prospects of having an enrichment plant or indeed any type of processing as far as uranium is concerned around the Makkovik area?

What are the possibilities of developing or having an integrated service in conjunction with the Labrador Linerboard wood harvesting industry to get into a large-scale sawmill operation? A lot of good merchantable timber is now going into pulpwood which we feel 1 in turn 1is probably not making the best use of that particular raw material. Maybe the minister can tell us what his views,or what his government's views are in this respect, There are a number of other things, Mr. Chairman, relating to industryand the development of that hydro on the Lower Churchill and what it will be used for?

I am particularly concerned about what is going to be retained in the particular area and what incentives the government will offer to industry to relocate in that particular area. MR.. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. llember for Labrador South. MR. MARTIN: Mr, Chairman, I will spare the minister the. chore of answering both of us twice since my interests are as well those of the Hon. Member for Labrador North who just spoke. There are a couple of other things I would like to emphasize. I will speak very briefly to this heading.

The first question that one must ask when discussing industry and industrial development in this Province is whether in fact this administration has articulated any kind of an industrial development philosophy or are they still going along piecemeal)putting a plant here and an industrial park there and somewhere else? Where are we going in this day and age when all across North America we are seeing the devastating effect of 3459

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1150 Page 2-~ unplanned industrial development since the early 1920 1s and before that? The question we should be asking ourselves at this point is whether we, on the northeast corner of the North American Continent, should concern ourselves with the development of the kind of heavy industry that has proven to be something less than a blessing to other areas of this continent. Should we not be putting more emphasis at this point in time on less destructive, less destructive and disruptive programm.es of development?

What are we doing about the development of tourism and tourist related industries? Are we giving that as much emphasis as we are giving oil refineries and shipyards? I think this is the type of question that we must ask ourselves when we are setting about to articulate a philosophy of development for the future. I see no evidence that any kind of a philosophy has taken form in the minds of the honourable gentlemen who make up this administration. Some of the directions they are taking are laudable. Some of the things they have done have been great mistakes.

But we are still left with the big question of whether or not we are going to bequeath it to our children and grandchildren the kind of a Province that we would like them to have. And heavy industrial development is the one kind of activity that more than anything else can have a totally disruptive and destructive effect upon the environment and upon the society. I will address myself particularly to what is happening in Labrador.

All of a sudden three or four years ago the people who held the reins of power in this Province decided that Labrador was no longer a poor cousin that had to be given welfare and that we were some kind of a bank account to be drawn upon. Well, we get a little tired of having industrial development in this Province promoted on the strength of Labrador's untapped resources, Not that we begrudge the people in the rest of the Province,or the rest of 3460

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1150 Page 3 - mw Canada 1 for that matter,the benefits of the development of those resources, but we would like to see a few of the benefits to filter off to our people who have lived there for centuries. Up to this point we have not received very many of them. We have received a lot of words, a lot of assurances, 3461

April 8, 1975 Tape No. 1151 NM - 1 a lot of sympathy,but sympathy is not going to put much bread on the table. Much was made of the promotional programme that the government has undertaken and over the last two years much has been said about the government's commitment toward the idea of a totally integrated province. There are a lot of people in Labrador who rightly or wrongly believe that we should put an end to this so-called partnership and the reason they have felt that way is because of the neglect which I have just mentioned.

Perhaps the honourable minister has all of the right intentions but it seems that his people involved with promotion have not had the benefit of his concern. Because we see full page adds such as the one that appeared in The Financial Post, December and October Rnd ~ovember, December and January last year, January this year, three quarter page ads with glowing praises of the industrial potential of this Province, telling all about the oil and the gas that is being Eound offshore, one in particular which in glowing detail sells the industrial developers of the world the idea of cheap electricity.

I quote from one part of that promotional brochure, "But that is only part of our power story, it says, referring to Churchill Falls, "work has started on the Gull Island Power Project on the Lower Churchill River which when completed will mean a total average annual capability from both the Upper and Lower Churchill Projects of 46.S billion kilowatt hours." ,, Further down it says, we have power to spare now and in the future.

That is why it is good business to check out Newfoundland before making a decision on plant location." Now I know that the minister understands that we are touchy on this subject and I know that his heart is in the right place and I know that he is not trying to sell us short when he neglects to put in the word Labrador. I am not trying to be petty on this point. What I am saving is that it merely points out thr fact that the whole thrust of development, the whole direction of development centres on the Island that the only thing that is concerned with Labrador 3462

April 8, 1975 Tape No. 1151 NM - 2 is the extraction of the resources from the Northern part of the Province for the development of the Southern part of the Province. I think it is about time that the minister informed his people in the planning

section that we really should at this point in tilne start thinking about putting something up there in Labrador as well. If they really started thinking seriously about that then th~y would start calling it the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador,as the honourable minister and his colleagues have assured us that it is the name of the Province, at least the name of the government. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the question of chickens and eggs; are we going to allow the federal government to tell us that we cannot have our roads and our railways and our airstrips and wharves until we get the economic justification to spend money on them! Are we going to continue to allow our cot1111Unities to be neglected simply because we do not have at the present time the industry to justify that expenditure?

Somebody here, because certainly there is nobody in Ottawa with brains enough to do it, somebody here in the Province must tell those people who have the money to spend on economic development that before we can have our mines opened up and our forests opened up and our plants put in there. that we got to have the transportation, the communications facilities, to entice developers to come in.

Every time we go to the federal government departJDents with a request for expenditure on basic facilities, it used to be called infrastructure in the days of "Fred" and those people, every time we asked for monev to be spent on them they say)we have done a cost benefit analysis and the cost does not justify the benefits that will accrue to the c011111unity. 3463

April 8, 1975. Tape 1152 RH - 1 '.'omebody for heavens sake get up there and tell those people that we have got to have them before we can develop. We seem to hear less and less these days about the much touted Labrador Highway which was talked about last year and for which the grand sum of $100 was cut out and never spent, I would again ask the minister to give serious consideration to scrapping the idea · of that Trans Labrador Highway in favour of putting in a railroad.

A railroad would be much more serviceable, lees costly in the long run, more costly in the short term but less costly in the long run, much more dependable and I think would probably be a much greater inticement to industrial developers.

We would also have the benefit of putting in a non-disruptive service which would have minimum effect upon the ecology since we could use cheap Churchill Falls power and we would not have to resort to fossil fuels for energy, Perhaps the minister would give that some more consideration the next time he talks to his colleagues in Cabinet and perhaps he could put a bug in the ear of one of his high-paid planners downstairs and ask them to just sound out the possibilities, whether or not it is feasible or cheaper to take a look at a railroad.

After all, most other parts of the country}including the Yukon Territories and the Northwest Terrotories, Northern Manitoba, Northern Ontario, all have their railroads and spur lines. It is not all that difficult. If anybody can put a railway through the Rocky Mountains then I think we can probably put one across Labrador. The last point I would like to make concerns the second major power project plan for Labrador on the lower Hamilton River -at Gull Island.

I wonder if anybody has yet tried to discover,or whether they care enough to try to discover what the cost of flooding all of that land on the height of land above the Churchill Falls, what the cost of that was in real terms to this Province. How many acres have we put out of production and has anybody done any similar kind of study on the costs, not the costs of flooding, not the cost of development,

April 8, 1975. Tape 1152 RH - 2 but the cost of taling that land at Winokapau out of service, of raising the level of the river for 140 miles back and taking it for­ ever out of service except as a reservoir. whether any serious con­ sideration is going to be given to harvesting the wood that is on that river and when we are talking about articulating a development philosophy. Maybe it is time we took a good, hard look at flooding huge areas of our country and taking them forever and ever out of any other kind of use.

I think if everything were put together,and all the pieces put in order, we would find that the benefits we get from cheap electricity are far outstripped by the costs of taking productive land out of service, productive in all its aspects, not just forestry or agriculture, but every other kind of use, us and our children and our grandchildren are going to put or probably will put or possibly will put that land to work. On this subhead, Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to close by asking the minister to answer those questions or at least consider those questions and will take an opportunity later on to address myself to other aspects. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Industrial Development. MR. DOODY: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I have the honour of addressing myself to, I think, four members of the Opposition who have raised questions and points.

I would like once again to say how unfortunate I feel it is,and I mean to exclude the two members from the Labrador districts from this co111111ent, how unforttmate it is that the Opposition once again have seen fit to spend what appears to me to be an excessive amount of time in repeating things that they have already said, I think particularly the Member for Bell Island who went on and on and on 3465

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1153 Page 1 - mw in his usual loud raucous style making very few points and wasting a lot of time that could be better served in this House by consideration of the estimates. Yesterday as I concluded,or at least when I ran ou~ of time,r was addressing myself to the - MR. NEARY: You ran out of speed. MR. DOODY: No, I ran out of ti.me. It was forty-six minutes gone, I think, and I was only allowed forty-five. I do not think there is any danger of anybody running out of gas in this honourable House, Sir, as long as the Hon. Member for Bell Island is here to supply us. MR.

NEARY: I must have really hurt you today. MR. DOODY: He has an inexhaustible supply of useless information. MR. NEARY: I must have really hurt you today. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy) : Order, please! MR. DOODY: Thank you, Sir. The Sea Water Products was a point. I am not going to spend any more time than necessary on it. I simply want to reiterate the few points that I did try to make. One is that a DREE offer was made.

The DREE offer in itself is really~simply that the DREE people say that if the plant is in operation,productive, viable, profitable for thirty days, then the offer that they have made will be given to the company concerned. So really the $141,000 at this point is of no value at all to the Sea Water Products. Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation and the Department of Industrial Development have spent hours and hours and hours, a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of energy and have spent it willingly, and it will do so again in an attempt to get some viable operation going in Hermitage.

But I would like to repeat what I said and which I think is what brought it to the attention of the Hon. Member for Hermitage who misunderstood me. The point I made was that there was absolutely no point in proceeding along the lines that the Bide Arm operation was started, and it was 3466

Apru 8, 1975 Tape no. 1153 Page 2 - mw exactly the same situation. Up there there was a DREE offer of $144,000 or $145,000. It started the people in Bide Arm out on a project which was doomed to failure from the beginning, which should never have been started because there was no rationale in an economic sense for it - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. DOODY: Yes, that is right.

Before the situation got stabilized the people in Bide Arm had come to regret the fact that they had gone down the wrong road to the extent that they had, With the proper kind of direction and the proper kind of assistance I think a great deal less money could have been spent and a great deal more constructive work could have been provided for the people. So this is simply the point I am trying to make with the Sea Water Products operation in Hermitage. I sincerely hope that it does get underway.

And, as I say, our department, the Department of Industrial Development and the people of the Newfolllldland and Labrador Housing Corporation will give it all the time and the attention that they are asked to do. It was stated that a great ferroalloy or an alwninum p.ant was promised to the Bay D'Espoir area. I can only say, Sir, that every time information was asked of us on this subject we indicated that we have been in consultation with many industrialists who were interested in the establishment of such a facility in an area where reliable power at an economical rate is available.

Six or seven of these people have visited the Province of Newfoundland and we took them to review the various areas that we thought might be appropriate to such a facility. One of these areas 1 and the one which seemed to have gained the most attention and the most attraction from these industrialists,was the Bay D'Espoir area. There were three particular spots down there that seemed to excite their attention, the Roti Point area, an area behind Milltown up on the height of land there,and an area near Swangers Cove.

During the past year the Department of Industrial Development spent approximately $50,000 carrying out site survey analysis at the Bay D'Espoir for 3467

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1153 Page 3 - mw such an industry, and we have the facts and figures and statistics to provide for such an industry, if they do indeed decide to locate there. But at no time did we indicate that there was any colllllitment ~om such a facility nor indeed did we ever indicate that the Province was completely satisfied that such a facility would b.e completely desirable. There are a great many uncertainties in such a plant that would have to be looked at very carefully and would. have to be weighted very, very carefully.

The possible ecological damage from the aluminum is certainly there, and we have to see that the environ.ment is protected,as the member from Labrador South said, not only during our own t:ID!.e but for future generat ·ions. This is something that we are 3468

April 8, 1975 Tape 1154 (afternoon) very, very conscious of whenever we think in terms of industrial development, particularly heavy industry. While mentioning the possibility of a ferroalloy or of an aluminum or other such heavy industry,and the fact that it is a power intensive industry. I should like to direct myself then to a question raised by the ~ember for Labrador North.

I am just going to point IB-1 out that we have taken these gentlemen, these industrialists on each and every occasion to the Goose Bay area to let them view the situation there themselves,just as we have taken them to the Bay D'Espoir area, to the Bay of Islands and to the Stephenville area or the main areas. Some of them expressed an interest 1n having a look at the Bell Island area and some of them the Terrenceville area, but the four that I mentioned earlier were the ones that were of most interest.

We have gone to the extent of applying to and receiving from the federal government an area of land which can be used as an industrial site near the Happy Valley-Goose Bay area in the Northwest arFa. It is available to an industry should one choose to locate there.

If it takes a certain power subsidy, not a subsidy - let me phrase that differently - if it takes an advantaged rate or a rate that would be cheaper on the mainland of Newfoundland, on the Labrador section, then it can be delivered to the island to entice an industry to locate in Labrador, certainly this government will consider it and be very, very anxious to do what it can to facilitate such an operation.

I agree with the member that there is certain justification in what he says, that it may not be fair to charge the cost of a transmission line down through the Province against an industrial site in the Goose Bay or inde~d in the Labrador area. It may very well be that the blending of such a rate - I think is the term they use - may not be the best way to attract industry to the Goose Bay­ Happy Valley area. This has been very much in our minds and we have approached industry along that line.

As I have said before and will continue to say there is absolutely no point in attracting an industry to Goose Bay or to Bay D'Espoir or to anywhere else that is going to be a drain on the 3469

April ~. 1975 Tape 1154 (afternoon) economy of the Province. There is no point in going into a subsidy operation. There is no point in going into an operation that is going to be a drain on the treasury. We have had one ERCO,and let us not dwell on it, but let us take the lesson that can be learned from it and apply it against our future discussions with these industrialists as they come to visit us. There is not question about it 1 I think the Member from Bell Island said it himself, that industry is not beating a path to the doors of the Province of Newfoundland.

This is not the most attractive area in the world for industry. We have to do a lot of selling. We have to do a lot of projections. We have to do a lot of presenting those advantages that we have in the best possible way. I apologize to the ~ember for Labrador South for having left the name IB-2 of Labrador off the advertisements that were appearing in the international press. Sometimes - I do not want this to be misunderstood - but sometimes you will find that the industrialists who visit us and connnunicate with us in response from advertisements are somewhat confused by the term of Newfoundland and Labrador.

They wonder if they are i _ndeed two different provinces or two different governments or two different areas and if indeed they should be in consultation with us or in consultation with whomever. llowever, if it helps to relief or alleviate the fears of the people in the Labrador area, I can assure you that a siaple directive to the people who do the copying in the department will set that situation correct. The word Labrador can quite easily be included in future advertisements. There was certainly no intention to slight the people of Labrador.

We realize how sensitive they are about the situation. 1 wish it were not so. I agree that it very likely is so and if such an inclusion can help alleviate that situation we will be most happy to accommodate the member. The philosophy of industrial development of the Province of Newfoundland I went over at some length in my opening connnents here and I echoed to a large extent some of the thoughts of the Member from Labrador South in his comments. It is felt by this government that the 3470

April 8, 1975 Tape 1154 (afternoon) main thrust of :lnduatrial develol)D!ent :In the Province is to develop the natu'l'al resources of the Province. of the entire Province, :l!n the most sensible and practical way possible and to work with our present resource departments :In that regard. to use the body of eJCl>.ertise, IR-3 tbe tal-ent that we have recruited :In our Department of Industrial Development, the thirty or so .people who lire down there. It is not a large deparbnent or need i _t ever be, but to vorlt with the resource departmel)ta, Forestry and Agriculture, Miries and Energy, Fisheries. Rural Development, Manpower, Tourism, Transportation and Commmaicationa and so on 3471

,\pril 8, 1975 Tape 1155 (Afternoon) PK - 1 and to mobilize the resources that we have and try to gain the maximum advantage to the Province and job creation from them with the minimum of dislocation in terms of our ecology and of our lifestyle, and there is also a delicate balance to try to achieve in between there. To me and to many of us the heavy industry thing is a nuisance to be tolerated perhaps only in terms of jobs, the necessity of jobs.

And this is a dilennna that anybody who sits in government in this Province will always be faced with, the necessity of providing employment for the people balanced against the lifestyle of our Province, the history of our Province, and the way of life that we all want to have here forever and a day. And some of us have got to make a decision from time to time about whether it is nice to have all the forest and trees and hills and valleys and rivers and streams,and not have enough money in our pockets to be able to visit them and enjoy them.

Sometimes I think that the greatest critics of heavy industry or job creation or industrial development of any sort of the encroachment on our natural resources, if you will, on our lifestyle, on our forest and rivers, are those people who have the guaranteed annual incomes and the university degrees and the secured jobs, the people who can look forward to a couple of weeks or three or four weeks paid vacation every year and go out and take advantage of them with their trailers and so on, and fishing and hunting and so on, and these are wonderful things and everybody should have a right to be able to enjoy that sort of thing.

But I wonder how much benefit and how much amusement and how much relaxation those of our people who do not have jobs get out of this sort of thing that I just described?

It must be a very scant sort of satisfaction to a man who is on welfare or who is looking forward to a hungry Winter, in relative terms, to know that come Summer there is a great unspoiled place in the centre of the Province where he can go and fish and hunt and tramp around and track and take his family and his sons and teach them what there is to know about the Province, when he knows in his own heart and soul that he has not got the wherewithal to do it. So these are things t hat have to be considered and thought about when we think in terms of industrial development. It is not simply a matter of putting 3412·

April 8, 1975 Tape 1155 (Afternoon) PK - 2 up factories, nor is it simply a matter of spoiling our lifestyle. There is a delicate balance in between and I quite honestly feel that it is not an easy choice to make. I would like to be able to give you all the answers, Unfortunately I do not have them. And I do not think anv man who is a Newfoundlander at heart,who is interested in this Province can come up with an easy answer and an easy solution. I would like to collllllent also on the fact that the Member for Bell Island raised the name of John Rannie here this afternoon.

I would not want this House to think that when I mentioned the fact that we had expanded the Marystown Shipyard and created another hundred or so jobs down there, that we had gotten another $31 million worth of contracts,that it was done by me as the tninister. Because obviously I know no more about shipbuilding,or maybe a little bit more about shipbuilding than the Member for Bell Island. Most people know a little bit more about everything than the Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Oh, yes spareribs. MR.

DOODY: What I do want to say is that John Rannie is one of the most remarkable and honest and decent and capable persons that I have ever met in my life. And this Province and this administration and the previous administration and any other government or people who have had the honour or the good luck or the good fortune to be associated with him could do nothing else but to share that sentiment. It is true we gave Mr. Rannie a testimonial dinner when he left and we made him a presentation. It is also true that we have asked him to become and rPmain a director of the Marystown Shipyards Limited.

And I am very pleased to say that he was very happy to accept that. I am also happy to say that two Sundays ago Mr. Rannie was here in the Province of Newfoundland and had talks about the shipyard with our people. So I am in no way trying to detract from the honour and the vote of thanks that this Province owes to John Rannie, and indeed to Mr. Smallwood if he was the man who brought him here, AN HON. MEMBER: He was. HR. DOODY: although I cannot imagine anybody bringing John Rannie anywhere that he did not want to go. MR. NEARY: He was. 3473

fll)ril 8 , 19 75 Tape 1155 (Afternoon) PK - 3 HR. DOODY: John Rannie was the man who built the Queen E II and put Brown Shipyards on the map, and did like work in British Columbia and now: ;in his spare time, in his late 7O's,doing an o.dd job of consulting in Nova Scotia while he teaches in a technical college in Aberdeen. MR~ NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY.: Perhap .s Mr. Smallwood did bring him 'here. He tlic.!. If he did,full credit to him. He did. I wish that Mr.

Smallwood's recruiting programmes for members of government and fnr other people that be had brought to tb .e Province were all as fortunate as his choice of John RanJJ.ie. MR. NEARY: He brought BRINCO here. MR. DOODY: This Province would not have been in the situation tha.t, you know, it is in. MR. NEARY: Do not be talking such garbage. MR. DOODY: Let me menti'on the fact that the - AN HON. r-mMBER: Inaudibie. mt. DOOBY: Member for Bell Island also said thi,.t it was almost 3474

April 8, 1975. Tape 1156 RH - l necessary) he saidl to give away the whole Province, but Mr. Smallwood did it. Well, that is true. I cannot contradict him on that. It is a most unfortunate statement but it is a true statement, and he mentioned BRINCO a few minutes ago and thatwas one of the most unfortunate examples of a giveaway programme that the history of our times, that the history of the Western World 1or perhaps any part of this world)has ever seen. I do not know why the honourable member harps on it. I did not want to raise it. I would not have raised it, but if he feels that it is worthy of mention.

If the honourable - MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): Order, please! MR. DOODY: The man just sat down, Your Honour. He has been on his feet constantly for the past two days and he is still at it. Will you relax "Steve", take it easy. MR. NEARY: Re is provoking me now. - - MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): Order, please! MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: giveaway? MR. DOODY: You are all tensed up, boy. What about the Bill Mullalley giveaway, the Dick Greene Now, the Pyramid Mobile Homes Plant out in Argentia came in for a great deal of ridicule. MR. NEARY: No it did not. The minister did. The plant did not. MR.

DOODY: This was felt to be something that was pretty pathetic. Here it is,he says, there is one watchman out there now. The honourable minister went out and opened the plant, attended a party, a cocktail party. Actually it was a luncheon. It was thrown by the Pyramid people in the Officers' Club at Argentia. It was all very pleasant too. I must say it was a very welcome two hours off. MR. MURPHY: (First

part inaudible) serve liquor, did they? MR. DOODY: They did. They did. They had wine on the table and they had alcoholic beverages of other sorts too, but I -must say I tore mvself away at three o'clock and came back to work. The point is that the operation was geared to employ somewhere in 3475

April 8, 1975. Tape 1156 RH - 2 the vicinity of 150 people. They made a DREE projection on that basis. They showed how many people would be employed and how many units could be manufactured with that many people working, applied to OREE on that basis. DREE accepted it as a reasonable proposition, looked at the market. The gentleman says there was no market study done. DREE examined it very carefully, looked at the market study which was done, offered them a $500,000 grant,which they accepted.

Pyramid Mobile Homes went into operation with that $500,000 and considerable of their own funds, something in excess of $1 million total investment. Shortly after that the over-production piece came into existence. The over-production 1as I have explained to thi honourable House before,was caused by the economic conditions. People could not buy, could not finance the units. They are currently turning out one home a day, employing fifty-four people. I have told that in six weeks time they intend to produce two homes a day and they will add another thirty people.

They feel that once the economic malaise that is affecting Canada or the rest of world rights itself, they will get back to full production. The Pyramid people are not pessimistic. The Pyramid people are not planning on closing down.

They have every intention of keeping the plant going and I am quite happy to say that the Government of New­ foundland, the Department of Industrial Development,were of some use in attracting the people to Argentia, the Pyramid people to Argentia because it is an area that is badly in need of jobs and fifty-four people working out at Argentia today is a lot better than it was a few months before they moved in there. I am sorry that it is not 540 people, obviously, but these are the simple facts of the things and getting into hysterics and waving your arms around your head and screaming about poor Mr.

Smallwood and so on and how many people he would have had out at Argentia is all very entertaining, but it is really not very constructive. Now, the situation in Labrador, as I say, is - as I have said we have encouraged all - MR. NEARY: Sit down, boy and do not be making a fool of yourself. MR. DOODY: - of the people who came to the Province to look at the industrial potential in Labrador. The ice problem is the major problem. 3476

April 8 1975. Tape 1156 1Ul - 3 There is a six or seven IbOnth period of the year when Lake Melville is frozen solid, ·where there cannot be navigation through that area. The. cost of :l,nventory during that period of time is tremendous. A couple of years ago it was bad enough. Today with the ' cost of money, the huge interest rates on money, .to stock pile alumina or stock pile aluminUDI ingot or fabricated aluminum for that period of time is 3477

April 8, 1975 Tape no. 1157 Page 1 - 111W excessive to the extent that the cost of power these people would have to receive and the cost they would need to pay for power to offset the cost of inventory, the six or seven 1110nths tie•up, it would just not be economically sensible. We even looked at the possibility . of 1110ving the ingot out across country.

It is a relatively light and small metal, and we thought in terms of a railway or we thought in terms of road transportation. »ut even at that the cost of the investment, the capital investment, in terms of the return from the market was such as to make it uneconomical. Perhaps in a yea~s time or two yea~s time things might hhange. I would certainly like to assure the honourable member that this government,when it is still in power at that time, and I think that it will be, will see to it that that power is made available and that industry can be attracted to the Goose »ay-Happy Valley area.

Certainly there is no place in Newfoundland -or Labrador that deserves the first call on the power from the area. AN HON. MEMBER : Hear! Hear: lfll. DOODY: I mean1 that is just comnon sense. I would like to assure the honourable gentleman that this is the philosophy of this government. He spoke of the possibility of a sawmill industry for the area. Once again, as the honourable member is probably aware, that has been looked at.

One of the sub-conmdttees of the Goose »ay­ Project Group,. of which the honourable member is a member, is assigned that very responsibility in conjunction with the Federal Depa~tment of Forestry or that

section of the Federal Department of the Enviromnent as well as our own Department of Forestry and Agriculture who have assigned people to that task, and they are looking at that very carefully. There is no need