Manitoba Hansard — 4 March 1977 (Sitting 12A, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-12a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

TIME: 10:00 a.m. THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Friday, March 4, 1977 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 30 students of Grade 11 standing of the Miles Macdonnell Co llegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. Peters. This school is located in my constituency of Kildonan. We also have 60 students of Grade 11 standing from the Mi les Macdonnell Collegi ate under the direction of Mrs. Louden, also from my own constituency of Kildonan.

On behalf of the honourable members, we welcome you here this morning. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Com mittees. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Conti nuing Education. HONOURABLE BEN HANUSCHAK (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table The Annual Financial Report for the Year Ended March 31st, 1976, of the University of Manitoba, and The Annual Report of the Centre Culture/ Franco-Manitobain tor the same period of time. MR.

SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Reports, Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills? The Honourable Minister of Labour. HONOURABLE RUSSELL PAULLEY introduced Bill No. 18, The Retail Businesses Holiday Closing Act. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Honourable First Minister. I would like to ask him when we can expect the remainder oft he reports which are supposed to be filed within two weeks of the opening of the Legislature? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister.

HONOURABLE EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Well, Mr. Speaker, I would ask all the Ministers to take note and we'll follow up by memorandum to insure that all reports that are required within fifteen days, I believe, of the commencement of the session are in fact tabled within fifteen days. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Resources. I wonder if he can advise the House if the government intends to make a representation to the International Joint Com mission Hearings, regarding the Garrison Diversion? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. HONOURABLE SIDNEY GREEN, Q.C. (lnkster): Yes, Mr. Speaker. I have indicated on several ·occasions that the Government of Manitoba will present both a positional statement and a technical brief to the hearings of the International Joint Com mission. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, in view of the factthat the approximate dates have been indicated by the IJC for the meetings, could the Minister advise at this time which of the meetings that will be presented at? Could the Minister advise, at this point, which of the meetings the government will attend to present its information?

MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I intend to go to Minot on Tuesday, the eighth, and present a positional statement. The technical paper will be presented in Winnipeg, at the hearing in Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister of Labour and would ask him if the Minister's department has undertaken any measures to assure that some of the thirty-two employees of the Evergreen Peat Moss Company, which closed last July, will be receiving the wages owing to them? MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not aware of any employees that have not received their wages or the circumstances surrounding the reasons for my honourable friend's question. If he would supply me with more information, I would be more than pleased to take a look at it. If memory serves me correctly, and I'm only going by memory, Mr. Speaker, and I can be incorrect in this instance, thatthe plant went into bankruptcy and it could conceivably be that being in receivership through going through bankruptcy, the Federal legislation is predominating over that of the Payment of Wages Act.

I would appreciate getting more information from my honourable friend. MR. BANMAN: Another question to the Minister in charge of the Manitoba Development Corpora tion. I wo uld like to ask the Minister when Evergreen Peat Moss, the company which the 337

Friday, March 4, 1977 province has a 50 percent share in, when will that company be placed into receivership? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'm not certain. lt is not necessarily the course of a commercial enterprise in this situation to be placed into receivership, but I'm not certain that it will or it will not. I'm not certain that it wasn't already placed into receivership. MR. BAN MAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

A further supplementary to the same Minister.! wonder if the Minister could confirm that the Manitoba Development Corpo ration has written off its equity share of $275,000 and its shareholders loan of $45,000 which the MDC put into this company? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I am not certain of the bookkeeping arrangements that have been made but may I advise the honourable member that the rugged free enterprisers competent management who my honourable friends always refer to as the people who are competent and know what they are doing and never lose money, will lose the same amount as the MDC, if not a little more.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BAN MAN: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Minister could confirm that there are not enough assets left in the company for the province to recoup any of its money. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the provincial loss will be somewhat less than the loss made by competent, rugged individualists, free enterprisers who started and managed the company. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye, final supplementary. MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Mini ster who is in charge of the Attorney General's department and would ask him if any employees, who have not received their pay from the Evergreen Peat Moss Company, have asked assistance of his department with regards to receiving their pay? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HONOURABLE HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I doubt very much whether such a request would be made to the Department of the Attorney- General. lt would seem to me that those requests, if any, would be directed to the Department of MINISTERIAL STATEMENT AND TABLING OF REPORT Labour.

MR. SI'EAKER: The Honourable Minister for Education. HONOURABLE IAN TURN BULL (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, with leave, I would like both to make a statement and to distribute the Annual Report of the Department of Ed ucation. (Agreed) Mr. Speaker, the statement relates to financial support for education in the province of Manitoba for this year. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Is that a Ministerial statement? Does the honourable member have copies? That's the procedure that we've adopted. Now, if it will keep, we will take it up at another time. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, I don't know what you're talking about. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON: The Minister's Estimates will be coming up very shortly and I wonder if he might not find it convenient to make a statement at that time? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, I have no problem, I thought I had leave to proceed, I thought the House would want me to make a statement. I have copies here for whoever would like them, if the page will come and get them. May I proceed then to make a statement as is customary and with the leave that I have of the House? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Morris on the point of order. MR.

JORGENSON: Nobody is denying the Mi nister the right to make a statement on this side of the House. You properly instructed him to pass copies of the statement around and, if he's done so, then he can proceed. MR. SPEAKER: Correct. The Honourable Minister for Educa tion. MR. TURNBULL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I did th ink that the Leader of the Opposition was waving a copy at me there but if he doesn't have it, he does have it now. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Let me remind the Honourable Minister that the rules are for all and that includes .. . The Speaker gets a copy and all members in the opposition.

The Leader of one opposition as well as the other. If he's not aware of it, he knows now. MR. TURNBULL: I hope, Mr. Speaker, that you now have a copy. MR. SPEAKER: Yes, I have. MR. TURNBULL: I'm pleased to hear that, Sir. The total increase in provincial grants report fort h is fiscal year will be $23 million. Of this total, $12.6 million will be the provincial share ofthe Foundation Program and $10.4 m i 11 ion wi 11 be the contributions of the province and other grants available to most divisions and districts. The total Foundation Program will be $186.7 million.

Eighty percent of this or $149.3 million will be the provincial share. Other grants provided by the province will total $34.6 million. The province will support, therefore, $183.9 million exclusive of the property tax credit which was $87.5 million last year. The Foundation Program for 1977 will provide for an increase of over 280 in authorized number of 338

Friday, March 4, 1977 teachers. The increase in authorizations will be determined through a change in the teacher-pupil ratio and in the calculation for determining the authorized number of principals, supervisors, guidance counsellors and other such staff. The ratio for both elementary and secondary teacher grant authorizations in 1977 will be one in twenty-three. The adjustment in the ratio will mean not only additional salary grants for the number of increased authorizations but also the block grant of $2,180 for each additional authorization.

The result of this change will mean over $2 million for salaries and for maintenance, administration and supply. As in the past, additional salary grant allowances will be provided for principals, vice-principals, guidance counsellors and other administrative instructional personnel. The maximum number of allowances will be slightly larger than in 1976. These allowances will be determined on a pupil enrolment basis rather than on the basis of ten percent of the number of authorized teachers. The

schedule and formula for calculating the maximum number of additional allowances is enclosed: herewith, it is attached to the statement, Sir. The adjustment in the future pupil ratio recognizes the importance of elementary education for the children in the province. The grant structure has been used to recognize the desirability of placing elementary teachers in the same position with regard to teacher-pupil ratios as are teachers in other regular classroom situations. lt is expected that the additional authorizations will cover the cost of teachers now over grant in many divisions.

The provision of these additional authorizations for teachers should contribute along with the other increases in the Foundation Prog ram and other grant support to a decline in the rate of increase in special levy mill rates set by the municipalities. For many years, the provincial government has attempted to bring about greater equality of educational opportunity. As any attempt to realize this goal must develop from a degree of fiscal equity, the government has introduced financial measures which have attempted to equalize the fiscal resources available to the various divisions and districts.

For this reason, the provincial government introduced in 1973 a province-wide equalization grant. In 1977, the equalization grant will recognize to a greater extent the wealth disparities within the province and provide a greater measure of fiscal equity for all divisions particularly for those with low assessments on property. The equalization grant for 1977 will range from $25 per pupil fordivisionswith a balanced assessment per pupil of $14,000 and over to $215 per pupil for divisions with a balanced assessment of less than $5,000 per pupil. Details of the Equal ization Grant

Schedule are attached. Equali zation Grants provided by the department will increase by over $7 million to nearly $18 million. The provincial programs of financial support for this year were developed with the general purpose of lessening increases in mill rates and the recognition of several priorities for quality education. Two of these priorities, the importance of elementary education and the need for a greater measure of fiscal equity, have been mentioned. A third priority which can be dealt with through the current budget of the Foundation Program and Grants Support is vocational education.

Vocational education enables our young people to develop all of their talents to provide our technological society with the necessary skills. The per pupil grant for vocational industrial pupils will be increased from $325to $475 in 1977. On the basis of existing enrollments this will mean a total of approximately $3.2 million for vocational education. Although the Department of Education should emphasize particular aspects of education through the Foundation Program and Grant Support Program there is a continuing need to allow as much freedom of operation as is possible for local school divisions.

To encourage decisions at the local level and to support local autonomy a general per pupil grant will be increased 25 percent to $125 per pupil. Total support through this provision in the Foundation Program will amount to about $27 million. This large amount of money will enable divisions to determine many of their own priorities, especially for programs unrelated to the core curriculum required by the department. Many divisions have asked the department to assume a larger proportion than has been the case in recent years of the expenses of operating school buses.

Operating Grants for transportation of students, therefore, will be increased from $19 0 to $215 per pupil authorized for transportation. This 13 percent increase recognizes the increase in other costs associated with transportation of students and particularly the increase in motor fuel costs. Some divisions have experienced problems in administration because of the climbing enrolment in their schools. A grant first provided in 1976 to cushion the effect of fewer pupils will be continued this year. ltwill be paid on the basis of $350 per pupil and on the basisof the sameformula as last year.

Other upward adjustments in financial support affecting divisions will be sent to them by the department. A provincial financial support for education is intended to provide the groundwork for a sound basic education. Those trustees who give their time, effort and thought to education and those whose careers are in education, I know, will do their best to provide the education that is needed for the 339

Friday, March 4, 1977 children in their division. Mr. Speaker, I also had asked for leave and obtained it to distribute the Annual Report for the Department of Education for the year 1975-1976. They are ready for distribution in the Clerk's Office. MR. SPEAKER: We will revert back to the Question Period. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. STERLING L VON, (Souris-Killarney): Mr.

Speaker, in response to what we have just heard from the Minister of Education, I will not attempt at this time to make any detailed reply to his long and rather unusually timed statement but we do indicate, Sir, that we're happy, as was announced in the Throne Speech, to see the government reacting to a situation that is well-known throughout Manitoba, namely the tremendously high burden that municipal taxpayers must pay in this province for the support of education and to the extent of the grants that he has announced today will translate into relief for municipal taxpayers.

They are welcome indeed even though they probably will prove to be insufficient to right the situation or to put it into a comparable situation with other municipal taxpayers in other parts of the country. I expect that my colleague, the Honourable the Member from Brandon-West, will be having more to say in detail about the Minister's statement and I will let it ride for the time being that we appreciate the support that has been announced but we will probably be suggesting other areas and other ways in which the support could be manifested in better ways for the students and for the taxpayers of Manitoba.

ORAL QUESTIONS CONT'D. MR. SPEAKER: We now revert to the Question Period. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wo uld like to direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture and ask him: Has the Minister had any correspondence or dialogue with the federal government with regard to the proposed Tariff and Import Legislation as it will apply to fertilizers and sprays entering Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HONOURABLE SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): No, Mr. Speaker. MR.

FERGUSON: What is the position of the Manitoba government on this proposed legislation? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe there is such a proposal; I think that it has been mentioned and rumoured but I have never heard an announcement. MR. FERGUSON: Then will the government of Manitoba be making any proposals to the federal government if it comes to pass? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, it is difficult to make a proposal on a non-proposal. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Mathews. MR. WALL V JOHANNSON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Attorney-General.

Has the Attorney-General received a complaint that on the afternoon of March 1st at a public meeting at Teulon some members of the so-called Freedom Campaign attempted by threats of physical violence to disrupt Mr. Rudy Usick's meeting on the beef marketing referendum? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEV: Mr. Speaker, I have received no complaint. If such actions take place, of course, complaints should be filed in the appropriate manner. Needless to say, it was a noted jurist that once suggested that freedom of action did not include the freedom to shout "Fire" in a theatre. MR.

JOHANNSON: Another question to the AttorneyGeneral, Mr. Speaker. Have you received a complaint that at an informational meeting on the beef referendum at East Selkirk on the evening of March 1st, another so-called group of Freedom Campaigners led by one Mr. Richard Klassen, left the hall as soon as the Minister of Agriculture arrived and turned on the fire alarm as they left? Has he had a complaint and if he has had a complaint, or if he does receive a complaint, is he prepared to investigate? MR. PAWLEV: Mr. Speaker, my answer to the first question would be more appropriate for the second question. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HONOURABLE RONALD McBRVDE (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, the other day, the Member for Lakeside asked me about the tonnage of freight on the winter roads. So far there have been over 72 million pounds of freight hauled over the winter roads system; 80 - 90 percent of the freight for the communities on the east side of Lake Winnipeg has been moved and the final shipments are now going into Moose Lake and South Indian Lake. Because of slush ice on Oxford Lake, the freight is slightly behind

schedule to Oxford House and to God's Lake Narrows. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. 340

Friday, March 4, 1977 MR. BAN MAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Further to the questions the Member for Gladstone asked to the Minister of Agriculture, I wonder if I could ask the Minister if he could give the assurance to Manitoba farmers who have already purchased sprays and fertilizers in the United States that they will not be subject to any new import taxes or duties. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the Member for La Verendrye knows that this is a matter of federal jurisdiction; if he doesn't, it's time he did. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Mines. MR.

GREEN: Mr. Speaker, some days ago, the Member for La Verendrye asked me about the $5,000 cash deposit required by owners or operators of commercial quarries. I am advised that the $5,000 figure of a deposit is one which took into account the small commercial operator but if a man was commercially operating, would be able to file the bond.

I am also advised that a deposit of that kind can be purchased. lt's not required in cash, but that cash means in addition to legal tender, certified cheque, certificate of deposit or irrevocable letter of credit issued by any chartered bank in Canada and I understand that a letter of credit can be purchased for approximately one percent or for about $50 per year. So that is accepted as a cash deposit but the deposit is required for rehabilitation purposes and is considered to be the amount which would be necessary if rehabilitation had to take place. lt can be pu rchased for approximately $50.

ORDERS FOR RETURN MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have, seconded by Member for Birtle-Russell an the of the House to issue for return ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable First Minister has a point of order. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Sir, to save time I'm wondering if, with leave, I could indicate that we're prepared to accept the two order s standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Roblin. it would save some time. MR. SPEAKER: Is that agreed? (Agreed). So ordered. MR. McKENZIE: Do I have to turn the orders in, seconded by a member?

MR. SPEAKER: Yes, it's accepted. ORDER NO. 24: On Motion of Mr. McKenzie: THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing: 054 I. The number of tenders or purchase orders called for the supply of tarpaulins for the Department of Highways during the calendar year 1976. 2. The number of tarpaulin orders purchased via the public tender system. 3. The volume in square yards of tarpaulins purchased by the Department of Highways. 4. The number of individual firms involved in the manufacture or sale of tarpaulins to the Department of Highways. 5.

The number of truck tarpaulins on hand and owned by the Department of Highways as of December 31st, 1976. 6. The total number of 2-axle trucks owned by the Department of Highways with open-type gravel boxes mounted over the rear axle. 7. The total number of 3- or more axle trucks owned by the Department of Highways with open-type boxes mounted over the rear axles. ORDER NO. 25: On Motion of Mr. McKenzie: THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing: 1.

The total number of acres of land purchased by the Province of Manitoba for highway and public road construction in each of the 57 individual constituencies of Manitoba in the years ending December 31st, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976. 2. The average price per acre paid for these lands and right-of-way in the years 1970, 1971, 19 72, 1973, 197 4, 1975 and 1976 in each of the 57 provincial constituencies. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake that an Order of the House to issue for return . . . MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister wishes to speak on a point of order. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Sir, again, it seems that there is no particularly obvious way to handle these lengthy Orders for Return but my understanding that the Ministry is prepared to accept these questions and therefore I would suggest that they be accepted as read. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. Is that agreeable? (Agreed) . So ordered. All three of them, Mr. First 341

Friday, March 4, 1977 Minister? All three. ORDER NO. 26: On Motion of Mr. McGi ll: THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information with respect to the present Associate Deputy Minister responsible for the Department of Edu cation's Bureau de !'E ducation Francaise: . I. The number of years of experience as a Classroom teacher and/or principal in e1ther an elementary or secondary school prior to his appointment as the Associate Deputy Minister. 2.

The number of years of experience in the implementation of new programs in education prior to his appointment as the Associate Deputy Minister� 3. The number of years of experience in the supervision of elementary and secondary education programs prior to his appointment as the Associate Deputy Minister. 4. The number of years of .experience in curriculum development for either elementary or secondary schools prior to his appointment as the Associate Deputy Minister. . 5.

The number of years of experience in analytical research related to programs of e1ther elementary or secondary education prior to his appointment as the Associate Deputy Minister. 6. The number of years of experience in the evaluation of either elementary or secondary education programs prior to his appointment as Associate Deputy Minister. ORDER NO. 27: THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information for each fiscal year since inception of the Department of Edu cation's Bureau de !'Edu cation Francaise: 1) The number of actual staff man-years tied directly to this program. 2) (

a) The actual total amount of money spent on salaries. (

b) The actual amount of money spent· on salaries for extra-departmental consultants. (

c) The actual amount of money spent on salaries for contracted consultants. 3) (

a) The actual total expenditures other than salaries. (

b) The expenditures on extra-departmental consultants other than salaries. (

c) The expenditures on contracted consultants other than salaries. 4)(

a) The actual total expenditures on automobiles. (

b) The expenditures on automobiles for extra-departmental consultants. (

c) The expenditures on automobiles for contracted consultants. 5)(

a) The actual total expenditures on travelling: (

b) The expenditures on travelling for extra departmental consultants. (

c) The expenditures on travelling for contracted consultants. 6) (

a) The actual total expenditures on transportation. (

b) The expenditures on transportation for extra-departmental consultants. (

c) The expenditures on transportation for contracted consultants. 7) (

a) The actual total expenditureson wages and other assistance. (

b) The expenditures on wages and other assistance for extra-departmental consultants. (

c) The expenditures on wages and other assistance for contracted consultants. 8) (

a) The actual total expenditures on professional fees. (

b) The expenditures on professional fees for extra-departmental consultants. (

c) The expenditures on professional fees for contracted consultants. 9}(

a) The actual total expenditures on other fees. (

b) The expenditures on other fees for extra-departmental consultants. (

c) The expenditures on other fees for contracted consultants. ORDER NO. 28: THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information with respect to the Department of Edu cation's Bureau de !'Ed ucation Francaise: 1) The name and position title of each individual presently employed by this branch. 2) The date of commencement of employment in each case. 3) The Civil Service Commi ssion competition number for each individual appointed to a permanent position. 342

Friday, March 4, 1977 4) The job description for each staff member employed. 5) The number of staff members reporting directly to each supervisor. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would request that we deal with the second reading of Bill No. 12 and following that we move into Supply. GOVERNMENT BILLS - SECOND READING BILL 12 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES ELECTIONS ACT MR. SPEAKER: Second Reading of Bill No. 12. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HONOURABLE BILLIE URUSKI presented Bill No. 12,

an Act to amend The Local Authorities Election Act, for second reading. MOTION presented MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Most of the amendments in this bill are of a housekeeping nature meant to correct references which no longer are applicable or for the purpose of bring ing The Local Authorities Elections Act into closer conformity with The Provincial Elections Act. There are amendements dealing with prohibiting of members of council serving as election officers.

This has happened on many occasions in the past, sometimes out of necessity but it is felt that since all members of council are now up for election at the same time, that no sitting member should act as an election officer at the same time he is seeking election. There is also provisions which now provide that the returning officer shall give at least ten days previous notice of the date, time and place, when and where he will receive nominations, by publishing a notice and posting of a notice.

As a councillor must resign his seat at least two weeks before nomination date to be qualified to run for mayor or reeve in a by-election, by changing the period of notice from ten to fourteen days, it will elimi nate the possibility of a second by-election to fill the vacancy created by a resignation. it's really tying the two together. The Act now provides for pol ling hours between nine in the forenoon and nine o'clock in the evening. A proposed amendment would make the polling hours between 8 a. m. and 8 p.m., as in the provincial elections, bringing that into line.

Presently the Act now provides for an advance poll of three days and the proposed amendment would permit the council to reduce the number of days for advance polls to one or two, as it deems necessary. Experience has shown that having to maintain an advance poll for three days, in most municipal elections, does little to accommodate the electorate and requires municipal employees to be in attendance for three days. There is an additional amendment that provides that a scrutineer for each candidate appointed for that polling place may be appointed.

These sections have been reworded to provide for freer substitution of scrutineers during the election day and to bring the

section more in line with provincial regulations. There is also an amendment which deals with the instructions to the voter in mailing in a ballot, and provides that the elector shall complete the form of the certificate of identification and have the certificate certified by the signature of another elector, authorized to vote at the electi on. lt has been found that most ballots which are mailed are received from electors in hospitals, and the present requirement to have the elector's signature certified by another elector authorized to vote at the election is impractical and impossible to regulate.

The proposed amendment, therefore, only requires that the elector complete the form of certificate of identification. This also requires a change in the form which is shown at the end of the bill. An amendment to another

section now provides for the recount of votes by a Cou nty Court judge and the application must be filed in the County Cour t of the Co unty Cour t district in which the authority belongs. There have been three recent examples of recounts where the authority was within two or three Cou nty Co urt districts. This most frequently happens in school divisions. For example, the Agassiz School Division is located in three County Cour t districts.

The present procedure of requiring the Lieutenant-Governor in Cou ncil to designate which County Court district is to have jurisdiction is cumbersome and difficult to achieve in a fourteen day period of filing of an appeal. The proposed amendment, therefore, would permit the appeal to be filed in any County Cour t district in which the local authority, or any part thereof, is situated. The above amendments, Mr.

Speaker, are, as you can see, for the most part meantto improve the election machinery used in municipal elections and since 19 77 is an election year for all municipalities it is important that these changes be made in time to accommodate the October, 19 77, elections. MR. FERGUSON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Member for Rhineland, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. 343

Friday, March 4, 1977 MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-General, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Co mmittee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. - MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Co mmittee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN: I refer honourable members to the Estimates Book, Page 20, Resolution 49(a) pass -The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, we were discussing, when we left off in the committee last night, the qualifications of the new acting director of this branch and the Min ister was explaining what the experience of this person was, in terms of elementary and secondary education, and in evaluation and research and policy analysis with respect to as it is applied to the public education system. I wonder if the Minister would just review that for us, and particularly in the area of research. What are the qualifications of his present acting director? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, it will be a pleasure for me to deal with that.

I do, however, want to straighten out some remarks that the Leader of the Opposition made earlier about the unusual timing of the announcement in the House of the financial supports for this academic year. I checked with him what he meant by that, believing that he knew what statutory requirements exist, and I thought perhaps he was referring to that, and he indicated that it really was not thatto which he was referring but rather the fact that I was on my Estimates and therefore could have made the statement during my Estimates.

Well, Sir, that I suppose is always a possibility but whether he realizes it or not, I am trying my best to accommodate the opposition and I thought that he would have wanted a statement in the House during that period of our routine proceedings set aside for statements, and so I made the statement. But I don't think there is any problem involved here, one way or the other. MR. LYON: I thank the Minister for his desire to accommodate the opposition.

We appreciate that and I daresay that in the light of that statement of his, he would have no objection possibly to deferring the discussion in committee on the next item to be voted until the Honourable Member from Brand on West and others of us have had an opportunity to go through that statement and make some assessment of its impact before actually debating the vote in question.lf I could have some indication from him if that would be agreeable, if we would defer that item, if he would by agreement defer that item over until next week some time until we've had the opportunity to look at it, then we could move on to some other vote today.

MR. TURNBULL: Well, Mr. Chairman, I do want to be accommodating but, boy, that's sure pushing it. However, I think that I can even be that accommodating -t o defer the discussion on that vote. I don't think there is any particular problem, in terms of House procedure, in doing that. So I will be even that accommodating to the opposition. I have found, though, Sir, often when one is accommodating to opposition members they don't often reciprocate.

The Resolution on Financial Support is what the Leader of the Opposition is speaking about and that's the one that will be deferred to a later time, whenever they are ready. does relate to the position now occupied by a woman, a position as Acting Director actually of the Ev aluation Research and Policy Analysis branch of the department. I would ask your guidance, Mr. Chairman, on this. This matter has been put before the House in the manner of an Order for Return.

I would have thought, Sir, that you would have wanted to avoid duplication in debate and since that Order will be filed shortly, perhaps we could defer debate on this matter any further and file it when the time comes for that, which will be very shortly. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL: Mr. Chairman, ifthis is a Point ofOrder being introduced by the Min ister, I would simply point out that the filing of an Order for Return was, in a sense, an accommodation to the Minister in that it gave him advance notice of our interest in this particular area.

Since it is so appropriate and so vital to the consideration of the money being requested for this department's operation 1 would say say, Sir, that it is rather important that this information be communicated to us if the Minister has the information to provide. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. proceed if I could just draw the attention of the honourable members to the gallery. There are 22 students from Rossland School, Grades 7 and 8 under the direction of Mr. Jacob Hildebrand. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Rhineland.

On behalf of all the honourable members, I bid you welcome here this morning. With regard to the point of order that has been raised by the Honourable Minister of Education and since this Order for Return has not been yet filed in this House, I would say that the discussions as we are dealing with the Estimates now is in order. Resolution 49(a). The Honourable Member for Brandon West. 344

Friday, March 4, 1977 MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, in view of your decision in this matter, I hope that the Minister will now be able to provide us with the information that has been requested. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Educ ation. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, I believe that yesterday I gave the Member for Brandon West the pertinent information. I assumed he was seeking information about the educational attainments of the person who is now the Acting Director of the Evaluation Research and Policy Analysis

section . I did indicate to him then that this person holds a Masters degree, having graduated from the University of Manitoba in 1963. He seems to want even additional detail, searching detail on this civil servant as well as all other civil servants working for the government which I suppose will all go into the dossier that the Leader of the Opposition is maintaining on people that he intends to fire once he assumes he can form the government of Manitoba. I hope that that dossier will never never be in his hands for action.

However, if the Member for Brandon West wishes more information and as the details of education, experience, age, etc., are not the kin d of things that I maintain in my head for very lengthy periods of time, I want to read him what I have here with regard to the Acting Director of the Evaluation Research and Policy MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Did the Honourable Member for Brandon West have a point of order? MR.

McGILL: Yes, on a point of order, I would just merely wish to assist the Minister in his understanding of what I wanted. lt was not all that he said and mentioned there, it was simply a resume of her experience in elementary and secondary education and in evaluation research and policy analysis as applied to public education. I think that will simplify the Minister's ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Ed ucation. MR. TURNBULL: I will continue reading then, Mr. Chair man, I don't know if you cut offthe mike so for the record I'll pick up where I was .

May 1973 the incumbent was hired into a term position as a Planning and Program Analyst 1. 1n this position, among other duties, she was the departmental representative on the working groups on Program K- 12, the Eleme ntary Review Co mmittee, the Junior High Middle Years Comm ittee, the Physical Ed ucation Wor king Group. She held an appointment on term from April 1, 19 76 to November 19, 1976 as an information officer in charge of publishing the annual report Education in Manitoba, a monthly publication, and preparing other material. Does that answer the question that the Member for Brandon West had? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister if he can give us some information now in respect to the major fields of research that have been undertaken by this Evaluation Research branch. I am interested particularly in the period from April 1st, 19 76 up to the present. From April 1st, 1976 up until the present time, what were the major fields of research carried out or instigated during that period?

I would further ask the Minister, in his reply, if he could indicate whether reports of this research, either interim or final, are now available or could be available for our perusal? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, one of the areas of research, a major one, was the Metropol itan Achievement Test Project. The objectives of this - there were four in number - they They were established for mathematics at the Grade 5 level. The four objectives are: 1. To establish a norm for urban Winnipeg, 2. To establish a norm for each of the nine school divisions within this area, 3.

To provide teachers with scales which can be used for comparison of their Grade Five students with others in the Winnipeg area and in their own division, 4. To provide feedback to par ticipating schools and divisions to be used for diagnostic and remedial purposes. Grade Five was selected for the testing program because basic skills in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division of whole numbers should be established by the end of this grade.

These skills are necessary for the successful continuation of the more difficult mathematics in subsequent grndes. · The Metropol itan Achievement Test was selected because these sub-tests reflected closely the skills outlined in the program of studies for Grade Five as described by the Department of Education guidelines. That is one area. There was also the Canadian Test of Basic Skills which I referred to yesterday. The object here was to examine progress in basic skills for Grades Three and Six through the Canadian Test of Basic Skills to: by developing a norm for Manitoba in order {

a) compare results of preceding years, {

b) compare results with Canadian standards. The procedure, first of all, results are collected from the school divisions which use and record CTBS on a division wide basis and secondly, results are then analysed to find one norm for each grade for the above school division. The population in 1974-5 school year, sixteen divisions were included in the project; four urban, twelve rural and one northern. So far this year for 1975 - 76, 20 345

Friday, March 4, 1977 divisions have submitted results. I believe that this branch is involved in a number of other evaluative and research activities. There is the Shaughnessy Park Com munity School Eval uation.

The objectives of the Shaughnessy Park Eva luation Comm ittee are as follows: To collect and assess data on student achievement levels, to document and assess student attendance records, to assess and evaluate the outcomes of the community school process as undertaken by Shaughnessy Park Co mmunity School, to make recommendations to the appropriate authorities with respect to the findings of the Evaluation Comm ittee.

Progress to date, related to this evaluation, is first of all, the instruments have been developed for community, agency, parent, teacher and student survey; the survey will be conducted during March. This branch is also involved in the Wil liam White Co mmunity School Evaluation. I understand, from members present, the Member for Winnipeg Cent re, that there was a TV program with regard to Will iam White Com munity School.

I'm not certain whether this school is in the member's division or not -(I nterjection)- it is not in his constituency but apparently it was a very good program on TV and the program in the school, I think, should be commended as well. This branch, under the acting directorship of the lady in front of me, has conducted evaluation in the Will iam White Co mmunity School.

The objectives are as follows: In June 19 75 the proposal for the Com munity School was presented to the Board of Trustees of the Winnipeg School Division and it was accepted. lt was agreed an evaluation would be carried out during the first year of operation as a community school. An Eva luation Comm ittee was struck in February 1976. The objectives of the evaluation were as follows: (

a) to document and evaluate the general orientation and goals of the school and to assess the degree to which the actual operation of the school is consistent with these goals; and (

b) to assess the degree of satisfaction expressed by the principal, teachers, community members (both parents and non-parents), students and aids with the operation and direction of the school. The process of the evaluation was this: the evaluation of the Willi am White Co mmunity School was prepared by an evaluation committee comprised of four principals, two consultants from the Department of Education, two community aids and two parents. I might digress here, Mr.

Chairman, to indicate to members opposite, that as I was saying yesterday one of the main thrusts of the department over the last while has been to involve to the extent practicable the parents and community that are near a particular school, and you will notice now in specific terms the composition of this evaluation committee. Four principals, two community aids and two parents, making a total of eight but from the department there are just two consultants.

That kind of ratio of people outside of the department, to people within the department, I think is one that does ensure a high degree of community input to the evaluation that is taking place. l think it is a useful process. I might indicate to members opposite too that it does conform to the eight year long goal of the government to have a more open government, a government as open as possible and I think that the Member for Brandon West will realize the significance of this, even in such a project as the one I am now describing, the evaluation of the William White School.

The following criteria for a community school were compiled by the Ev aluation Comm ittee: (

a) meaningful and substantial involvement of community members and staff members in all aspects of the education system. (

b) Educational development for all members of community including non-parents. (

c) School involvement in community developments. (

d) All aspects of school environment to reflect and be consistent with community milieu, social, economic and cultural. (

e) Educational use of community resources for the children enrolled in the school. The method of evaluation.

The process included content analysis of the constitution, program descriptions, goal statements, Ministers' meetings, school position papers and committee structure to ascertain their support of the congruency with the school's stated goals and the socioeconomic milieu of the area, Data was gathered by trained interviewers on the level of satisfaction with the school as perceived by the principal, teachers, community members and students. 1 hope, still dealing with the Member for Brandon West's concern about the evaluation of this department - it's a meaningful question; I'm attempting to give as meaningful and detailed an answer as possible.

The findings of this Will iam White Evaluation Comm ittee. The school programs were found to be consistent with the goals of a community school and to relate directly to the social, economic and cultural needs of the community. There has been a substantial interchange between the community and the school, by both mutual involvement in programs and through the opportunities these provide for discussion and debate on various issues. An overall positive feeling about the school and its activities was expressed by the principal, teachers, children and those community members who 346

Friday, March 4, 1977 were sampled. lt would seem, however, that ongoing information concerning programs and personnel is needed throughout the school year to keep residents informed about the community school. The next area of evaluation of the branch, called Ev aluation, Research and Policy Analysis, was as follows, it was related to evaluation practices in school divisions. The Objectives were to determine the type of evaluation practices used by the different school divisions in the province. The organization of this was in November 1976; all school divisions in some districts were contacted.

The telephone interview format was used to obtain the relative information. May I point out to the Member for Brandon West that it was in November 1976 that this was undertaken. This was obtained principally from superintendents. The results that follow represent all but four school divisions. Because of the various methods of evaluation used in the different schools, it was difficult to formulate an overall evaluation practice for Winnipeg School Division. Results were also not available for Norwood, Mountain and Souris Valley school divisions.

Results, most school divisions did not have any stipulated evaluation policy. The type of evaluation used was the responsibility of the division office. I hope, Mr. Chairman, that the member finds this interesting. The Grade 4 Parent Study. Objectives: In the Spring of 1975, 10 0 Grade4 parents from urban and rural Manitoba were interviewed to obtain their perceptions of their child's school. The study is being repeated in this year, 1976-77 in order to (

a) discover parents perceptions and concern about their childrens' schooling; (

b) compare results with the first study in order to discover whether changes in perception and concerns have occurred. Procedure: 1. One questionnaire was developed closely related to the instrument in the first study. 2. The questionnaire was adapted to be used for telephone interviews, personal interviews and mailed survey. 3. Samples of school divisions and schools were selected to represent proportionally the number of students attending urban, rural and northern divisions. Permission was obtained from superintendents and principals to conduct a study in their school divisions.

Principals of schools sent names of parents, phone number and addresses of parents whose children were in Grade Four. Data will be analysed on a province-wide basis. The population served: Urban: 11 divisions, 34 schools, 16 8 surveys. Rural: 13 divisions, 26 schools, 104 surveys. Northern: 3 divisions, 7 schools, 41 surveys; total 27 divisions, 67 schools, 313 surveys. Of the 313 surveys 60 urban were telephone interviews, 40 rural were personal interviews, this was done to repeat the sample used in the first study in 1975. Mr.

Chairman, there are some other activities of the branch but I believe that those ones that I have described deal in a detailed and complete way with the question asked by the Member for Brandon West. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 49(a), the Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has give us some summaries of the research that has been carried out by this branch. I presume that the reports themselves are available either in their interim form or final stage so that we could benefit from an examination of them. I have received the

summary forms as the Minister has given them to us. I would also like to ask the Minister what proportion of the 1976-1977 budget was allotted to these projects? There was an amount of roughly $650,000 I think approved last year for the Evalua tion Research and Policy Analysis, and we've had a report of the kind of research they've carried out, how much of that total appropriation was used for that purpose? MR. TURN BULL: Mr. Chairman, the first question related to the availability of the reports, some of the activities that I have described that the branch has undertaken are available.

If the member is actually asking for copies I will undertake to make those that are available, available to him. Some are in an interim phase and some are, I would think, in the category of not really the kind of thing that I would want to make available for public dissemination - if the member knows what I mean- they involve the kind of information that I think divisions would not want themselves to see broadcast.

So with that understanding I certainly will make available those reports that are available, and indeed if he wishes at any time I will have staff and myself go through a briefing session with him on these particular reports that are available. MR. McGILL: I just remind the Minister, I asked him what proportion of his last year's appropriation was used for this purpose. MR. TURNBULL: The Member for Brandon West is nodding his head and I thought that perhaps that meant he wanted to speak, so I just sat down.

He did ask another question which was, what was the proportion of money of this branch expended on the evaluation tasks or duties, responsibilities that I've just outlined. The proportion would be approximately 20 percent. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 49(a), the Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I would like toquestion the Ministerfurtheron the way in which these 347

Friday, March 4, 1977 research programs are instituted, the way in which they are funded. Can the Minister tell us if research is undertaken in terms of a basic objective or a plan for the resolution of certain difficulties in our education system? In other words, in his research projects is he working under a master direction in which he is attempting to fund certain research programs that are going to give him answers and difficulties in the system, or in particular problems that he sees that his department would like to eliminate? What I'm trying to dete rmine, Mr.

Chairman, is whether or not there is a pattern to the direction of his research or whether these decisions to provide special grants for researchers is done on an ad hoc basis, whether the researchers themselves have the authority to choose their area of research or whether they are being retained by the department to do a specific task? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I found some of the words used by the Member for Brand on West to be rather interesting. I think one of these words was "master plan," is in fact the department operating under the basis of a "master plan"? Mr.

Chairman, the idea of a master plan is not really my idea of enabling local school divisions to exercise autonomy or my idea of enabling teachers to teach with freedom. So if he is asking me for a master plan laid out in great detail with everything filled in there which the department is undertaking, I have to say to him that that is not what the department is intending to do under my direction. lt may have been the case 20 years ago, or 30 years ago, but that is not what it will do under my direction.

However, there certainly is a rationale and a rationality to the kinds of research that the department is undertaking within this branch. Since I cannot speak for the relationship between the Minister and staff in the past, but it is my purpose and my method of operation to in fact visit these areas such as Shaughnessy Park, where I have visited, and to talk to the people in the field and to meet with those individuals that are well below the director or acting director level to try to get - and I mean this exactly - a feeling for the research as well as an understanding of the research that they are conducting.

I think the branch has undertaken research which does attempt to bring to bear research talent on particular problems in particular areas. Often how this research arises is through the identification of a difficulty or a problem within a school classroom or a school or a school division. lt often is initiated by the local area, and the division will then go in providing support services, in effect. Now that can expand to the kind of ongoing work that some of the staff are doing in various divisions.

They may be involved in evaluation, they may be involved in more direct support services which we can discuss under Vote No. 4. The Member for Brandon West and I recognize that there are problems in the school system. There are problems that this branch tries to identify and do research upon. However, I would not want him to think by my acquiescence that the purpose of the department and this branch is, as in his terms, to eliminate problems. He used that term "eliminate problems." I seek no final solution, I want no elimination of problems.

The purpose here in the department is to solve problems and to do so on an ongoing basis, and I think that there has been some effort made and some success achieved by this branch in identifying problems, in doing research on them, and on the basis ofthe researcher has been ongoing support provided by the department in some instances. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, could the Min ister tell us what proportion of the research and the special grants that are available I understand for that purpose, are given to persons who select their own area of research.

In this sense I would like to determine how the department intends to receive a benefit for education in these special research grants and the projects selected by the individuals concerned. lt would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that these might or might not, when they had been completed, be of value to the department so I am trying to determine what kind of guidance is used in order that the maximum return for education and the department will be achieved. MR. CHAIRMAN: Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBULl: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I said in my earlier remarks that there were some words that the member previously used that I would not agree with such as Master plan and elimination of problems. He has now used maximization of benefits" or "cost benefit analysis," that kind ofthing I'm sorry, what was the term? MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I object to being charged with using the word maximization. I don't know that word and I didn't say it. MR. TURNBULl: If I may ask the member then just for clarification before I compose a response to his question, what was the term then that he did use? MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister obviously is trying to pin-point a particular word I used. I used a number of them. I might repeat my thought and he might select a word there that appealed to him. The thought was, as I think the Minister now indicates, he's received it. I don't recall any specific word. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, you know the member made himself quite clear, the thought 348

Friday, March 4, 1977 came across, I think I've got the thought; the particular word though that he used has escaped both of us. I was going to say that I agreed with it because what he seemed to be indicating to me was: was the department interested in obtaining for research dollars spent the maximum benefits for the school system and the children in it? With that point, I was going to agree whole-heartedly; that is certainly the intent of myself and I believe the people in the department.

However, he did mention at the ou tset in his previous remarks, whether researchers had the choice of selecting what research topics they looked at. I thought at that point he was talking about staff. Staff are directed to do particular kinds of research; they do not operate as freewheeling spirits-at least not any more, I hope, if they ever did in the past. That is one kind of research.

The kind of research though that the department provides in other appropriations does relate to grants that are made available for research for individuals who have a particular expertise who are not permanent staff of the department. These people are in a position of being able to apply for grants and obtain money from the department, however, they obtain money from the department only if their research application meets the general overall goals of the department.

The Member for Brandon-West, I am sure is aware that a few months ago, the department - and this is another appropriation, Sir, and I'm out of order but I want to try to answer the Mem ber for Brandon-West - there is another appropriation that does provide for grants and a few months ago, we did advertise to the public-at-large for research applications from individuals who had expertise in education-related matters. These applications were made to departmental staff in this

section ; they were analysed and recommended for approval and indeed, I believe the order-in-council approving the money to be paid to these individuals, who are not departmental staff, has been passed. I hope that that deals with it. There are really, in

summary, two forms of research going on; one is by the people within the Department of Education in this branch and there is another area of research which is carried out with some departmental funding made available to individuals who are in education but are not members of the staff. I hope that answers the Member's question. ! don't mean by thisanswerthough to say that that's all the research that goes on in the Department.

Clearly those individuals who work in the Finance branch are doing a remarkable amount of research on a continuing basis in terms of funding and what kind of finance formula would be most suitable for the greatest number of divisions in the province but that really, I don't think, is the thrust of the Mem ber's question. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chai rman, I think it's correct that the largest number of officials in this branch are listed under the heading of "Evaluation" and the Minister has mentioned some ofthe schools that have had an evaluation procedure and some of the school systems and I suppose there are other projects that have been evaluated by this major proportion of the staffing of the branch. I wonder if the Minister could ind icate in addition to Will iam Whyte and I think he mentioned one other, how many schools have been evaluated by this branch? That would be one question, Mr.

Chairman, the other schools in addition to those two, I think that he mentioned, that have been evaluated. I would also like to ask the Minister if he could indicate in the case of a school evaluation whether or not self-evaluation is considered to be an important component in the total evaluation carried out. What importance is attached to the area of self-evaluation in these school procedures? I wou Id also ask the Minister: what are the qualifications and school experience of those members of ERPA engaged in the evaluation of schools and school systems? That's a fairly broad area, Mr.

Chairman, but perhaps if the Minister does not deal with all three parts of that question, I can remind him of it. MR. TURNBU LL: Mr. Chair man, in the particulars asked for, perhaps I can't deal with it all right now but we could get it for this afternoon. ! think that perhaps would be the best way, rather than have protracted exchange of comment on this; I will get it prepared in precisely the form that he's asked.! hope staff everywhere, including the gallery, have got those questions and they will dig up the details in precisely the form that the member wants it if we can and provide it to him.

Cer tainly this branch is involved in a number of other projects. Would he like me to describe the projects because I can if he wishes. I can give him the names of people who are into particular kinds of activities but I think it would be more efficient if we compi led an answer and gave it to him this afternoon. Is that acceptable to the Member for Brandon-West? MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I thought the Minister might have been able to give me the names of all of the schools that had been evaluated without too much difficulty.

I can appreciate that there might be some research necessary to provide us with the qualifications and school experience of those members of the branch that are carrying out these evaluations in the schools and I think it would not perhaps be necessary to put his staff to work in answering the question relating to the degree of importance that is attached to self-evaluation in these total school evaluation projects. MR. TURNBULL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, if the member wants a list of all the schools in which evaluation is going on, then we can provide that for him.

I do have a tabulation in here but it doesn't give it by schools; it gives it by total number of schools at the three grade levels, the elementary, junior and senior, but that's not what you want, you want the list of the actual schools. We'll have to 349

Friday, March 4, 1977 get that. The matter of self-evaluation, now you've really asked me a question. There are 21 4,000 students in the public schol school system and I have gathered you've asked me to what extent do each of them do self-evaluations. Mr. Chairman, I just don't think I can answer that question . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister what kind of research is his department doing in the area of school divisions of declining enrolment.

I know that he's introduced a paper today on financing which may be of some assistance in areas say, that have much lower assessment than some other areas but I think it's important for the Department to do this kind of research because as new programs are introduced and I'm sure that the new programs are evaluated pretty carefully, while during the 1960's we were coming out with many new programs while there was all kinds of money available and all kinds of revenue available to the divisions and to the Department of Education but in the last few years, I believe that there has been a decrease as far as the revenues are concerned for education and new programs have to be evaluated pretty closely, but the concern that I would have is the disparity between divisions with a high tax base and a low tax base and with that you have a decreasing enrolment.

I think the type of information and research the department should be doing and can be doing, perhaps maybe is, I would like to hear from the Minister, the kind of basic information to be providing to perhaps some divisions that the divisions maybe themselves are not doing. What happens at the present time in a certain division when maybe four or five schools are only utilized to the 50 percent. Are we going to utilize up to 30 percent and then maybe consolidating two schools or what?

I know this is difficult to do in many communities because the local residents will all want a school in their areas, nobody will want consolidation, but if the facts are known to the public what it's costing the taxpayers as well by keeping say schools open that are only functioning to 30 percent of their capability, then if that kind of information would be available to the people, to the residents, the taxpayers, and everybody, the general public, I think it would be much easier understanding for the trustees or the people in the division to take some remedial action, but if there isn't this kind of information filtering to the public, it's pretty difficult to do because I know, I'm sure the Minister is aware, when we had in the 1960's unitary divisions coming in, just nobody, nobody wanted to have their school closed and then if you talked to the residents, you know, you want a high school in a town that will have a class of 15 or 10 high school students and what will their potential or opportunity be to have any equal right in education and, as the Minister knows even at the present time, the disparity between the country students and the city students is widening instead of-( lnterjection)- between the country and the city, yes that's right, performance, is not improving, is not improving, so my concern is, is the government doing this kind of research.

I know the Minister has indicated in the evaluation they're doing some work as far as the progress of the students and the schools itself and assessing the teachers but I would like to hear the kind of research that is going on which really is basic and up-to-date information which must be of most and great of, you know, to the province. importance to the divisions MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, the first area of questioning was with regard to that area that we had discussed yesterday. yesterday, namely declining enrolments in school divisions.

I am sure the Member for Assiniboia knows that school divisions in order to get their grants from the Department must maintain very accurate enrolment records, they know what their enrolments are and an experienced school administrator will have a fair idea just by rule of thumb what the projection will be, but projections of say enrolment in first year or kindergarten are in rather a nebulous area. What research is carried on by the government in this area really is done by the finance branch of the department, which was really in a previous vote, Mr. Chairman, 21 (1) (b).

We've passed it but if I'm in order, Mr. Chair man, even though we've passed that appropriation, I will continue with my answer. The finance branch is the branch that works on the preparation of the financial support program for the department. lt does get the enrolment figures from the school divisions and is able to make certain forecasts about school enrolment after Grade 1.

For information prior to Grade 1, that is, the number of pre-school children that there are in an area, the department of finance, I am advised, relies on information that is provided or can be obtained from other branches of the government. You are rea lly now asking me what census track information do we generate within the Department of Education. Well, we're not in the census track business; we rely on information that comes from Statistics Canada; from the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics and from other sources, including the school divisions.

So this financial branch within the department it does look at school enrolments and projections from Grade 1 on. Information on pre-school years is obtained from the areas that I've mentioned to yo u. There is another group within the department known as the Public Schools Finance Board which, of course, must make assessments of information provided by divisions on school population because as the Member knows, it's pretty obvious that if you're spending three or four million dollars 350

Friday, March 4, 1977 in a school which the province funds 100 percent of approved costs, the Public Schools Finance Board has a responsibility to try to make certain that the population figures, especially for an elem�ntar y schpol, that are provided by the division, are checked very thoroughly against outside data and that kind of cross-comparison is done continually by the schools finance board on any school project that it is in the process of approving.

The Member also talked about - and it's not something that I would infer from my experience in the school system but must infer from what he said - that there is somehow a disparity in educational attainment in the rural areas as compared to the metropolitan areas. The Member for La Verendrye interjected when the Member for Assiniboia was speaking to say that quite the reverse is true. The Member for La Verendrye was maintaining that the students in the country are better than the students in the city.

The matter of disparity in education attainment from one level to another really is a reflection of, as I said last night, the socio-economic areas from which children come. That can be shown, not only in Manitoba but across North America, across the Western World. Everywhere where there is a school system you can find that the disparities really relate to what the parents are, who they are, what they do for a living and how interested they are in education. That's what makes the difference.

I think as Abraham Lincoln said, that all men are born free and equal, and I believe that the school system should try to challenge and draw out of students their maximum potential. Now, if there is a disparity as the Member for Assiniboia suggests, I think that the disparities relate more to what I have said than to this simple difference between urban and rural areas that the Member for Assiniboia has suggested. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I don't think the Honourable Minister caught on to what I was really trying to say and perhaps I can clarify it.

What research is done? Let's say you take ac lassof Grade9 students in the City of Winnipeg schools and take an average, then take a class of Grade 9 in different parts of the rural part of Manitoba and then carry it on to its final conclusion and say how many of the Grade 9 - let's take a figure - will complete Grade 12 and either go to Red River Co mmunity College or take some trade and how many will go on to university.

What is the percentage of the Grade 9 completing their high school and what is the percentage in the city schools carrying on the Grade 9 class then 10, 11 and 12 and completing, I'm sure the Minister will find the percentage in the urban centres is much higher than in the other parts. That's the point I was trying to raise with the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for LaVerendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I don't want to belabour that particular point that the Member for Assiniboia brought up but I would say that circumstances out in the rural areas very often are different too because the children do have opportunities to get involved in a family farm, in a small business and they have a tendency to not pursue further education because they are not locked in like a lot of the urban people are. 1 would like to ask the Minister this morning - there is one aspect of the evaluation that disturbed me last night - when he mentioned that they felt that they did not want to compare one school division with another or one school with another and showt he differencesor the anomalies between the two systems and would say to the Minister at this time that I met with the teacher representatives from the Hanover School Division this past little while and I'll tell the Minister these people definitely feel that there is some some solid system of evaluation that should be developed. 1 would point out to the Minister that I think a good system of diagnosing what kind of system we want to develop would show us where certain problems are; what the problems are and allow us to take steps to remedy these problems.

I think most of the parents want to know how Hanover School Division stacks up with Red River or stacks up with Agassiz or stacks up with Seine River or even Turtle Mountain or some other division. I think they want to know that. I think the majority ofteachers want to know that.

Because what it does, it not only tells the teachers what they are doing, I think it shows them what the fruits of their labour has been and also how they can better perform in certain areas that they might be falling behind on. 1 can't understand what he is really talking about because it is not a solid system that he seems to be embarking on. lt's sort of a wishy-washy system where nobody will really know there will be evaluating and nobody will really know what they are evaluating. lt sounds like another type of bureaucratic build-up.

I don't think this is what the parents want and I don't think that's what the teachers want. So I would ask the Minister if there aren't some positive steps he can take to getting some proper evaluation going, so we know what our students are doing and teachers can feel a sense of achievement with what they're doing. Also, it allows the school divisions to see what direction they are going. 1 don't think that just a little bit of window dressing for this kind of money is what the people want, and 1 would ask the Minister to check into that.

As I'm saying, it is not my own personal opinion, I've talked to a lot of people. I've met with the teachers from my area and this is the feeling that they have expressed to me. So he doesn't have to get up and say well the Member -from LaVerendrye is dreaming dreams because this is what my people are telling me and I'm giving some input to the 351

Friday, March 4, 1977 Minister and relaying the message that I'm getting back from this constituency of LaVerendrye. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman, I'd just like to elaborate more on these remarks of the Honourable Member for La Verendrye and I would ask the Minister to especially take a look at the difference at the disparity which is widening between Duck Mountain School Division and Winnipeg as a classic example of -(Int erjection)- no, to find out what is going on in comparison for the dollars that are spent or pick one of the larger divisions, -{I nterjection- well, of all the classes offered, and the opportunities for education and the environment and the inputthat is coming from the whole system to see if there is equality of education which has been promised for some time, that a child going to Duck Mountain School Division has an equal opportunity for all the resources that's available in a larger area.

We'd like to get more information if in fact there is equality at any level in the province. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Educa tion. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, the last two speakers have tended to identify evaluation with equality. That kind of identification is just too simple. Evaluation in itself will not establish equality.

Now, if the Member for La Verendrye who's gone now and the Member for Roblin wish the department to go to the divisions within their constituencies, such as the Hanover School Division and the Duck Mountain School Division with some program to ascertain how well the school is performing I can assure him that I will accelerate that process. We can evaluate the school. There is a model for evaluation of schools which many school divisions have agreed to co-operate in administering in their area.

I can do that - no problem, but the equality of educational opportunity that I believe should be a goal for our educational system is one that is a goal. lt cannot be achieved overnight. lt cannot be achieved by pumping even millions of dollars in. The Member for Rob lin well knows, because he's been a member of the adminstration party, that his own administration introduced 10 0 percent payment for the construction of schools. That was an attempt to achieve equality. The Grants Program that I introduced today, he will find on detailed analysis; will be of particular benefit to his school division.

The Member for La Verendrye will find - if my memory serves, and I'm thinking here of the 47 unitary divisions and the 12 districts or so Hanover School Division will benefit from the equalization grant system that we have introduced.

So both gentlemen who have just spoken will find that the finance programs for this year will provide a substantial degree of fiscal equity or a greater degree of fiscal equity in their school division. about, Now to the extent that fiscal equity can be brought we come, I believe, if money means anything in education, we come closer to reaching that goal of equality of educational opportunity.

I can assure members that if money is what it takes and they would give me cart blanche for approval for another $50 million or so and would not harp on how the provincial government is raising expenditures I could likely get some more money from my colleagues and maybe we could inject further funds into the school system. I don't know if that is what's necessary though.

Equal ity of educational opportunity comes via a number of routes, and one of them, I know the Member for Swan River is often fond of citing, is the route via the little red school house which the Member for Swan River has oftentimes in this House said was the best form of education that could possibly be provided to anybody. One teacher, 22 kids, 7 grades, or something like that, and the Member for Radisson has experience in that kind of teaching. l'm not sure of what proportions he had of pupils to teachers and how many subject areas he taught. That kind of educational system works. lt works. Why did it work?

Because the kids wanted the education, I presume, or many of them did, and because the teachers worked. However, there have been so many changes in the educational system that clearly the one-room schoolhouse is no longer a very viable form or route to equality of educational opportunity. You can't, in a one-room schoolhouse, have an electronic shop and a millwright's shop and a printing shopetc. and other such programs that students benefit from.

I mean, we're not talking when we talk about equality of educational opportunities, we're not talking just about equality of educational opportunity for those who are going on to an academic career. We are talking about those who have other required and necessary talents that are beneficial to our society.

And to the extent that money can provide programs so that children can develop those talents and their potential, then I think the department, over the years, over the many years since the beginning of Roblin's administration, have attempted to bring this goal of equality of educational opportunity closer and closer to realization. But let us not forget it is a goal, and I believe that a man's reach should exceed his grasp. 1 don't think we'll ever get complete equality of educational opportunities but the fiscal program, financial support program we've introduced will bring a greater degree of equity.

The Hanover School Division, I believe, in particular, will benefit and so will the Duck Mountain School Division, in particular, benefit. But I also caution members in this- that money is not everything in education. In education what counts so much is the students attitude towards the school. That attitude is formed at home. The power of the parents in the home on the child in school can be the most influential factor. The fact is, you know, that children spend far more time out of school than they do in, and that simple 352

Friday, March 4, 1977 comparison should remind members that equality of educational opportun ity depends on many more things than the Department of Education and the money that the province can provide. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Min ister very much for his comments and I think he does recognize the uneasiness that exists in the province today among school trustees, among parents, amongst the public, of the evaluation that's needed of the system at this time.

The sums of money that are being pumped into the system certainly is part of the answer but it's not the whole answer and I would hope that the Minister, when he finally does complete his estimates, can assure the public and the trustees, and the members of this House, that he's prepared, or the government's prepared, to now evaluate the system and give us some direction of where we're going. He's talking about money today. Well that's only good for a few months.

They're going to pump more money in. l would hope that, when he finally sits down, he'll say, "We have an evaluation system that will hopefully alleviate some of the anxieties of the trustees, and the public, and the students." And 1 think that's what the member here is asking, the the Member for Brandon West, is to give us some positive indications of where you're going so we can relay it back to the people in our constituencies. Because there is a lot of uneasiness and I'm sure the Minister recognizes it. MR.

TURN BULL: The Member for Roblin has asked, again, for some evaluation and, you know, to the extent that the department can evaluate, it will evaluate. Indeed, I have introduced a new program, this year, of student evaluation, which, you know, I hope will lead us to a method of determining, over time, how the school system is performing. Now I don't know what more he wants in the way of leadership. That is a new program. lt is going to be got underway.

In addition to that I did mention to him earlier that there are evaluation models of schools that the department has available and is administering in various school divisions, including yours. And that evaluation, if divisions wish it, can be administered in their area.

But, you know, if we're talking about the department doing all the evaluation through the province, which I hope the Member for Roblin is not suggesting- you know, we'll need a great number of staff- but I hope that we have enough staff and we can have enough new programs in evaluation to enable us to keep tab on how the educational system is doing. And I think in terms of standard tests that have been administered, as I said yesterday, in terms of the Canadian Test of Basic Skills, Manitoba students seem to be doing quite well compared to the Canadian norms.

And to the extent that those tests have meaning, I think that the public of Manitoba can be reassured of the quality of education in the province. MR. BAN MAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairm an.

I wonder ifthe Minister would not confirm, and he's just mentioned that money doesn't necessarily cure all the ills that we are facing these days, and I wonder if he wouldn't agree that there would definitely be a benefit to some standardized provincial-wide evaluation so that we would know which direction we are going, so that we know where we spending our money' that we know what we're doing with our money, what we're doing with our physical resources and what we are doing with our resources as a whole.

Because there seems to be, as I mentioned before, a definite clamouring by people in the province for some evaluation to see what direction we're taking. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, the members keep confusing evaluation with leadership direction and equality. There is evaluation going on now. The evaluation is carried on by the divisions. Some divisions have an enlightened policy of evaluation and sophisticated techniques.lt's carried on by principals who know what they are doing because they are skilled, trained and experienced, and by teachers who also do evaluation regularly in their classes, most of them do.

And finally, the department has evaluative systems which it will implement and use in conjunction and co operation with the school divisions. What I hear the Member for La Verendrye saying is that we should get right back to the departmental examinations that his party began to eliminate in 1968. He wants an across-the-board evaluation of the students in school. Now that's what he is saying. He may not think that's what he's saying but that's what he's advocating and I am not one who belie ves that the educational system should be rolled over, should be changed rapidly.

I think it is a system that because of the dynamics of education, it should be changed gradually and for the better. And I would not want to follow what the Member for La Verendrye appears to be suggesting, namely get us back to departmental examinations in five subject areas in grade nine, five subject areas in grade eleven, and five subject areas in grade twelve. We've gone away from that. If the teachers in his division, in Hanover School Division, want that then they should write and tell me that because I have not heard that from teachers.

They do not want to go back to the departmental system of examinations, nor do the trustees that I have spoken to want to go back to the departmental examinations. Now, Mr. Chairman, I told you it depends on whom you talk to but I have been down in the neck of-the-woods that the Member for La Verendrye is from and I spoke to three hundred-odd teachers and some councillors and some trustees in St. An ne, and I spoke to thirty or forty teachers, trustees and councillors in St.

Pierre, and I spoke to trustees in Sprague - that's the area of t he province that the member is from - I've spoken to quite large audiences. I do not get that kind of response from trustees, school administrators, and teachers .. But if they wish it, to go right back to those 353

Friday , March 4, 1977 departmentals and if there is support and if there is money, then I suppose that could be done but I think that doing it would be a mistake. The old departmental examinations had quite substantial problems with it because what happened is that everybody knew what was going to be on the exam and teachers taught to the exam.

Very little else was learned and if the child did well on the exam; the child was considered to be educated and that just doesn't happen to be the case. lt also meant, of course, in those days that those who were academically bound did well and those who had great talent but not in academics were left for some other non-existent programs. MR. BAN MAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think the Minister has done an amiable job of trying to paint somebody into a corner in this particular instance and I can tell him right now that I never once mentioned in my speaking anything about departmental exams.

I mentioned some system of evaluation and that's what I'm talking about. He doesn't have to go and try to paint me into that particular corner. I'm relaying some of the feelings that my own constituents have; I've relayed that to the Minister. He's asking us here to vote three-quarters of a million dollars and we're trying to get some answers from him. I am relaying some of the messages and feelings from my constituency. Now, if the Minister feels that his only claim to fame or that he's accomplished a lot by muzzling his deputy minister and he figures that's going to straighten everything out, it won't.

I'm asking the Minister for some consideration with regards to implementing some kind of system which will evaluate one school division to another and I'll leave it at that, Mr. Chairm an. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I don't know what the Minister for La Verendrye is getting so excited about unless he's got some of those constituents in the gallery and wishes to play to them. When he first spoke, he talked about across-the-board province-wide evaluation.

Now, he doesn't seem to be wanting to pay any attention to what I'm saying so, therefore, I suppose any answer I give to him, he will not listen and then he will get up and make a speech and say I didn't answer his questions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I'd still like to pursue one item with the Minister because I am sure and I agree with him, he said you cannot force students or people to go to school and it's important that the parents have some influence on the student.

I feel that there should be some kind of research going into why some of the students are not going to school because I had a student come to the Legislative Building here and he said he was just enrolling into a course atthe University and he said when he was in a a Grade 9 class in a school, there were 40 students with him.

Then I asked him how many ended up going to high school because then he had to go to a different location to high school because there was no high school in that particular town and he said that out of the whole 40students class of Grade 9, there was only him and another two students that ended up going to Grade 12 and graduating from Grade 12 or taking Grade 12. So that was my concern and I am sure there's quite a few areas in the province where, for some unknown reason, maybe there isn't enough influence at home for these students to continue.

But I think that kind of research would be most valuable to the department and to the government where you could take some remedial and corrective measures that would be of assistance to certain school divisions and certain schools. That was the point that I was raising with the Minister. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chair man, the problem of children attending school is the one that the Member for Assiniboia wishes to raise. The problem of attendance at school, of course, has been with us since we began compulsory education in this province in 1916.

I believe that the Public Schools Act in giving divisions responsibil ity for school attendance and the employment of attendance officers, does put the administration of attendance closer to home if you follow me. I mean, in many rural areas of this province, there are people in the community who know who is in school and who isn't and if they're not, where they are. I mean, that is the way it is in the country. So I think that to the extent that putting enforcement of attendance closer to the local level has been achieved; I think that's a good step.

The Department is or has under way a study of the reasons why students do not continue in school. Whether this study will be extensive enough for the Member for Assiniboia, of course, is always a question for debate but that kind of study is underway and research is being done by the department and I expect it will be done with some consultation with people in other fields,l ike social workers for example, probation officers who have an idea of this particular group of young people who are habitually away from school. So that is under way. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR.

WARREN STEEN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Education has been spending some time talking about evaluation and he's gone on to say that we can't have true evaluation betwen divisions because we don't have equality from one division to another. Then he went on and he made some reference to a model. Does the Minister or does his department have what he refers to as a model division?

I'm not asking him to name a particular division that he considers is the model division but I would like to have him define what a model division might be and give us some explanation in detail as to what this model is since he claims that we can't evaluate division A and division B. 354

Friday, March 4, 1977 MR; TURNBULL: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether the Member for Crescentwood ever studied logic or not - and I won't elaborate for him - but I did not say that we cannot have evaluation because there is no equality in the school system. He's made a logical error there which 1 won't go into. He. also has made a mistake in getting out of my remarks that I had in mind a model school or model division. I didn't say that; there are no model divisions that I have in mind.

What I did say was that there is a model for .. evaluating schools that the department has developed and has been administering in schools. This model, most trustees who are knowledgeable know about it; many of these trustees have wanted it administered in their division; most superintendents are knowledgeable of this school evaluation model and want it in their schools because they do want to see how their schools are performing in terms of the expectations of the people in the school. That's what I was talking about. The evaluation model for schools, not a model school. Is that okay?

The member is shaking his head, he understands, good. MR. STEEN: I accept the Minister's answer and he talks about a model method of evaluating schools and school divisions. I would like the Min ister to tell me how the school inspector is part of this model because I'm led to believe that in recent years we've had a reduction in the number of school inspectors going around and evaluating principals, teachers, programs and students. Is this true that we've had a great reduction in school inspectors and if we have, who has taken the place of the school inspector? · MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, I was just trying to recall if the Member for Crescentwood was in the session last year and he was. We had, as the Member for Brandon West knows, a protracted debate on this subject last year. Over the last 20, 22 years, I think, that would be a fair time horizon, there has been a continuing change in the functions of the school inspector.

The school inspector at one time, well, 15, 20 years ago, 20 years ago, used to go into a school and he inspected, usually, just the new teachers for that year, that's all; and you would have inspector who specializes in Social Studies and one in Math and one in some other subject and they would make the rounds of the schools. And I think even 20 years ago the rounds were made outside of Winnipeg, in the rural schools. So. that even, I think, 20 years ago there were fewer or no inspectors within urban School Division No. 1 and the larger urban school divisions.

In any case, back around 1965, school inspectors moved away from the individual inspector going in to inspector an individual teacher, which was their primary function, to what they at that time in around 65, 66, 67, called team inspection and a group of inspectors would go into a school and they would sort of do a general evaluation of everything that was going on there.

The change that was under way in the mid 60s has been continued over the last few years and, indeed, the role of the inspector is no longer except for six field administrative officers who, for the most part, are ex inspectors and they still do go out into schools when requested, or into particular areas when directed, to do an evaluation, a general evaluation of the school. That function is still in place.

The question, I suppose, that would next be asked, if I may anticipate the Member for Crescentwood, would be well, why have you reduced the number of inspectors, you know, why have various administrations, and various Ministers of Education allowed this evolution to occur, this reduction in the number of inspectors and this change in the function of the inspectors. That has occurred because, the school system in Manitoba in the last 20, 30 years has become quite sophisticated, in terms of professional people that are employed by the divisions.

So today in a division, even a quite small division, even in a small division say, of 1500 pupilsthere will be not only a principal in virtually every school but a superintendent, you know, who will and these people, these principals and superintendents having usually come up always, I guess, come up through the school system, they know teaching, they know what is supposed to go on and they can, in fact, and do inspect their teachers; that is what they should be doing. So, what I am saying is that our school system has altered.

Instead of having departmental inspectors coming from the centre out to the schools, we have people on the spot in the divisions who are perfectly qualified and capable of evaluating teachers in their division; and that evaluation does go on and, indeed, many teachers who are on a two year probationary period in this province are not given tenure as the resultofthe kind of inspectorial functions carried out by principals and superintendents and other administrative staff in the school division.

The reason then for the reduction in the number of inspectors isquite simplythe growth of local autonomy and the enhancement of the professional competence and capacity of the administers in those local school divisions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Carry ing along in the same train of thought, Mr. Chairman, the Minister says that we have less school inspectors now.

Was the school inspector ofthe years gone by - I'm trying to catch the Minister's attention - was the school inspector of years gone by an employee of the Department of Education and, if so, now with the method of inspection, as he says it's done in the local division, the person that is working obviously for the superintendent during the inspection within the division now, he's an employee of that particular school division and not the Department of Education. Am I 355

Friday, March 4, 1977 corr�ct in that assumption? And formally the school inspector was an employee of the department and 1t was the Department of Education that was evaluating that division rather than someone within the from within the division evaluating the division and I think there's quite a distinct difference. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member of Education. MR. TURNBULL: lt is correct as the member indicates that people who now review the work of teachers are employed by the school divisions and, except for a few field officers, are not employed by the department. MR. STEEN: I think, Mr.

Chairman, this is an appropriate time for me to ask the Minister this question because my desk mate is present and that is I'd like to ask the Minister his thoughts and if he would update me through evaluation research and policy. On the French immersion courses that are being offered through the various school divisions and the one that is of particular interest to me is the one with the Winnipeg School Division. Could the Minister comment on the growth and the French immersion and where he anticipates this course of study is going to go in the years to come? MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to do anything that would disturb the equanimity of the Member from Crescentwood but this question that he has asked me is not really within this appropriation, although it's called evaluation. I think he's made the confusion between the evaluation that has been going on with regard to instruction in French and he assumes because of that it's in here, it isn't.lt's in the appropriation on page 22 at the bottom, if you see it there the French Educ ation Bureau and we can discuss it when we get to that point. If he would, Sir, that would certainly be in order.

I don't know which deskmate he was referring to, which deskmate of his was in the House when he raised this question, but I hope that he and his deskmate are present when we get to (XXI) 4(n) . MR. STEEN: Well I thank the Minister for his answer. I think that my question on the French immersion was a very general one and I think it could almost fall into any category within hi s Estimates, although he has pointed out there is a special

section and he would prefer to answer the question at that time, that's quite all right with me. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rob lin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, the evaluation that's being done at the school trustee level in the province, could I ask the Minister for that information as to those school divisions that are within or border Roblin constituency, is it public information or is it confidential information for the School Division and the department? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBULL: Well, Mr.

Chairman, we do have an evaluation model for schools and I have already given a commitment . to the Member for Brandon West that those evaluations that we have undertaken, that are available for publication, distribution, I will make available to him and I have offered to the Member for Brandon West that, you know, we can have briefing sessions on those if he wishes.

However, I want the Member for Robl in to realize that the evaluations the department undertake in this area, in my understanding, are done with the co-operation and, indeed, the consent of the school divisions and before making any statements about, you know, what is available and what is not in terms of school evaluation, I would like to check, not only with my staff, but with the particular divisions involved because I think evaluation is important and I think it should be done on a co-operative basis and not unilatterly by the Department of Education. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 49(a).

The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL: Mr. Chair man, I think the Minister has undertaken to get some information over the noon hour in respect to the qualifications in school experience of the members of his school evaluation teams and so I think we might just delay some further questions on that area until, perhaps, that information has been obtained by the Minister. did mention earlier in the debates that we would like some further information on the feedback sessions that the Minister had referred to during his explanations earlier.

I think that we agreed that feedback sessions were intended for a form of evaluation, or at least some obtaining of information about schools and school divisions and responses. This is probably one of the favorite forms, perhaps of his Deputy Minister, of obtaining information on what is going on in the divisions. So perhaps the Minister could tell us just what this feedback program is, how it works and what successes they have had with it in obtaining useful information about the operations in the divisions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Edu cation. MR. TURN BULL: Mr.

Chair man, I can move into that but I seem to be in a bit of a problem, Sir, that really is an item for (XXI) 4(a), likely (XXI)4(

a) would be the bestspotto discuss it rather than on (XXI) 2 and I would like to try to proceed in order one wayor the other. l'm in you're hands, though, if we can pass (XXI )2(

a) and (

b) and move to (XXI)4 then we can talk about the feedback, and I can get the answers on (XXI)2 if he wishes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 49 (a) - pass. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chair man, the Minister talks about 21 , I guess that's the page number he's using. 356

Friday, March 4, 1977 Item 4 (

a) under program development is that what he considers to be the purpose of feedback to developed programs in the school system or is it a method of researching the attitudes and the kind of interests that the people in the school divisions have? I rather understood it to be a form of evaluation that the Deputy Minister was undertaking in order to apprise himself of the kind of responses he was getting from the people in the divisions. I would like the Minister to comment on that. MR. TURNBULL: Well, that's rather vague, Mr. Chair man. All I'm saying is that the money as I understand my Estimates, the money for the feedback workshops is found in Vote 4 (

a) Administration and Organizational Support and the feedback sessions are often with principals and superintendents and teachers and it's just more appropriate to discuss it at that place. MR. CHAIRMAN: The point is well taken. The Honourable Member can raise that point under Resolution 51. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chair man, I wonder then if we co uld go on perhaps and have the Minister describe for us the internal-external evaluation program that was undertaken at Leaf Rapids. I would be rather interested to know the details of that program. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Speaker, I did anticipate that question, and indeed, I have the detail right in front of me. I may as well start from the top. Internal-E xternal Ev aluation Model - Leaf Rapids: Objectives: I. To measure and document learning in the areas of cognitive skills in specific subject areas and specific grade levels by means of criterion reference to tests and documentation techniques respectively. 2. To assess educational climate in the schools by means of questionaires and interviews and to establish its relationship to learning by means of appropriate data analysis techniques. 3.

To assess practices and processes in decision making at all levels of the school division by means of interviews and questionaires and to establish their relationship to learning. 4. To determine educational goals in the school division as received by parents, students, teachers, administrators and trustees by means of interviews and group int eraction. Population involved - There is one school kindergarten to twelve in the district. This school serves over 500 students and employs 32 teachers. Organization and Procedures related to the operation of the model.

The Member for Crescentwood is still here, that's good, I hope he heard that. 1. A formation of the steering committee October 1976. Macro evaluation of school district - I don't wish to create tedium for the Member for Brand on West or his colleagues, does he wish me to continue? He does. 2. Macro evaluation of school district; (

a) development of questionaires for parents, students, teachers and business persons, October to December 1976. (

b) distribution and collection of questionaires February 19 77. (

c) analysis of questionaires March 19 77. (

d) feedback of results to Leaf Rapids School March 1977. 3. In-depth evaluation of specific components of school district. (

a) Evaluation of school library, February 24-25, 1977. (

b) A firm decision in what other areas will be given in an in-depth evaluation will be reached by the steering committee in the early part of March. 4. Measurement of student achievement. (

a) Measurement of physical fitness level of students, all students, all grade levels, March 8- 9, 1977. (

b) Measurement of mathematics skills- all students Grades 1 - 5, May 19 77. (

c) measurement of language-arts skills, all students Grades 1-5, May 19 77. This project should be completed this year, Mr. Chairman. I hope that in giving the member the details for that particular project I have also by, specific example, given him an indication of the general approach that the department has been taking. This branch has undertaken in co-operation with all the groups mentioned, trustees, administrators, principals, teachers, parents and other community-based groups, evaluation of schools and student performance in certain areas.

I think it has been a worthwhile endeavour and the information that I have obtained, as people in our positions obtain information, is that the sessions have been worthwhile and that the department is doing an adequate and indeed a good job in this area. I hope that that detail is sufficient for the Member for Brandon-West. That was, as I said, the Internal-External Ev aluation Model for Leaf Rapids. I will be going to Leaf Rapids I expect before very long to have a look at the school.

They have written and invited me to come up and I hope at that time to once again be in a position to get firsthand information about how the school is doing and what the people there think about the Department of Educa tion. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has given us a rather complete report on the Internal Exte rnal Ev aluation at Leaf Rapids. I didn't catch all of the details that he gave but it seemed to me that 357

Friday, March 4, 1977 there was feedback results that were included in the evaluation. Now, this seems to somewhat refutE the earlier claim of the Minister that these belonged in some subsequent discussion of his Estimates MR. TURNBULL: If I may, on the matter- when I read that, Mr. Speaker, I said to myself that the Member for Brandon West is going to be on his feet making exactly the point that he did. Ali i can say, Sir, is that the use of the word feedback in 2 (

d) on this description that I've just given him is a word it's jargon - for what happens during the internal-external evaluation. This is not related to the feedback sessions which are called as such and which are a different activity of the departmen1 altogether. MR. McGILL: Well now I understand, Mr.Chair man. Feedback is one of those words in the English language that has two meanings; it means 2 (

a) and 4(a). This evaluation that was carried out at Leaf Rapids, I presume was funded by the department. Were there any special grants made to the school division in respect to the Leaf Rapids' internal-external evaluation and in answering that question, the Minister might also indicate whether there have been other special grants made to school divisions for the purpose of evaluation? MR. TURN BULL: Mr.

Chair man, it's my understanding that the division received a grant of $2,000 for this internal-external evaluation exercise and, of course, there would be some costs borne by the Department of Education for the involvement of its personnel in Leaf Rapids. MR. McGILL: How many people were involved in this evaluation at Leaf Rapids, that is how many local and how many outside departmental people were involved in the internal-external evaluation? I'm interested in the proportion of the cost that would be borne by the department and by the division, in this case.

And would the Minister indicate how transportation costs were apportioned in respectto the travelling of the personnel from his department to and from Leaf Rapids. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chair man the information I gave you about the Grants for Leaf Rapids, of course is public information as the member knows. it's done by Order in Co uncil as are other Grants and he could have found it out through the various research people that the government pays for in his caucus. The second point that I would like to address myself to is the one that he just asked about. Clearly I don't have that kind of detail prepared.

I could not anticipate that question in that form but we will get the information for the member hopefully by this afternoon. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chai rman I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether a similar internal external evaluation was carried out at Thompson, whether or not this evaluation is now complete and whether he'd be able to report to us on the proportion of the costing, the funding of that evaluation between the department and the school division. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, this evaluation; internal -external evaluation was carried out in Thompson at the Mystery Lake School Division.

I should have said is being carried out. They are all being carried out. That's my answer to his question. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 49. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: I wonder then could the Minister tell us when these evaluations will be completed. I understand from him that he they are both in progress at the moment. Will they both be completed at approximately the same time or is there some overlap. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, it sounds almost as if the pipeline to the Member for Brandon West has been very direct.

I did say earlier though in referring to the Leaf Rapids internal-external evaluation project that the results of the study there would be completed this year and the same statement applies to the completion ofthe study for Mystery Lake. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chai rman, in the few minutes that remain, I want to go back to the discussion we had and the encouragi ing words which the Minister gave to the committee on the program he was developing for the academic evaluation of the achievement levels. I should say the evaluation of academic achievement levels in the school.

We were somewhat encouraged by his general remarks that were made about a plan he had which would provide something that we have not had since the late '60s when the old form of departmental examinations were discontinued. My encouragement was somewhat tempered by the later reports on this plan that I think there was some report today in the media that this plan might take four or five years before it would be in place. I had asked the Minister whether he thought there might be a program in place for the next session of the school year.

And the Minister indicated that while hewouldn'tgo so far as to confirm that he would certainly be hoping. Now if the plan is in fact so nebulous at this stage that it's going to take four or five years to implement that takes away a lot of the encouragement that we got from that message. I hope the Minister can really give some - (Interjection)- The Minister is asking me, Mr. Chai rman, for a clipping. I believe this was a voice report and I'm not sure that it was quoting the Minister accurately. The indication was that this might take several years in which to implement it.

Now I hope it doesn't come into the same category as the long looked for revision of the Public Schools Act which has been in the mill since 19 70 or 71. Could the Minister now give us some further estimation of his position with respect to the plan. Is it, in fact, merely a nebulous frame of mind at the moment or has some research been actually done in this? Has this been ongoing for a period of months? Can we look forward to some more precise details as to the 358 e . e e

Friday, March 4, 1977 form it will take. MR. TURNBULL: Yes, Mr. Chair man, I would prefer not to be involved in a debate with the Member for Brandon West on the basis of the report that somebody made over the media. Mr. Chairman, I did meet with two members of the press yesterday evening after the session rose at 10 . They, however, were reporters for newspapers although I suppose one of their reports may have been used as the basis for broadcast.

What I did tell them was that what we have now in the estimates is a small program which will begin a system in consultation with those involved in education of evaluation, that I did expect that this could be in place by this spring or this fall. That is certainly my expectation. That's what I told the member in the House yesterday.

I did not say anything differently than that to the press, assuming that they were questioning me in the context of what they had heard in this Chamber but over time I do expect to be able to develop a system which will enable us to cover, again using the statistical basis of sampling that can be used in this matter over time to get an evaluation done of student achievement in the schools in the Province of Manitoba. But clearly we cannot drop a province-wide system of evaluation on the schools by next fall and I would not want to even attempt that. But, I don't think there is any contradiction here.

We are really talking about two different time horizons for two different ends of the program; the beginning which I hope to have by this fall and the full development of the program, which I expect will take four to five years. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The noon hour having arrived, I am leaving the Chair to return at 2:30 this afternoon. 359

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-12a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 12a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6f8634fd7992b732eb7205524d5540dc2b67508d

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