Manitoba Committee Hansard — 25 October 2017 (Legislative Affairs Committee, Sitting 12, 41st Legislature, 2nd Session)

41-2-la12

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session – Forty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs Chairperson Mrs. Sarah Guillemard Constituency of Fort Richmond Vol. LXX No. 12 - 6 p.m., Wednesday, October 25, 2017 ISSN 1708-668X

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-First Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP BINDLE, Kelly Thompson PC CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC CURRY, Nic Kildonan PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FLETCHER, Steven, Hon. Assiniboia Ind. FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib.

GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Clifford Emerson PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek Interlake PC JOHNSTON, Scott St. James PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLASSEN, Judy Kewatinook Lib. LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMOUREUX, Cindy Burrows Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MAYER, Colleen St.

Vital PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REYES, Jon St. Norbert PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples Ind. SCHULER, Ron, Hon. St. Paul PC SELINGER, Greg St. Boniface NDP SMITH, Andrew Southdale PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WHARTON, Jeff, Hon.

Gimli PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian, Hon. Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC YAKIMOSKI, Blair Transcona PC

417 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS Wednesday, October 25, 2017 TIME – 6 p.m. LOCATION – Winnipeg, Manitoba CHAIRPERSON – Mrs. S arah Guillemard ( Fort Richmond) VICE-CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Alan Lagimodiere (Selkirk) ATTENDANCE – 11 QUORUM – 6 Members of the Committee present: Hon. Mr. Gerrard, Hon. Ms. Squires, Hon. Mrs. Stefanson Mr. Altemeyer, Ms. Fontaine , Mrs. Guillemard, Messrs. Johnson, Lagimodiere, Ms. Lathlin, Messrs. Nesbitt, Wowchuk Substitutions: Mr. Selinger for Ms. Lathlin at 9:50 p.m. APPEARING: Mr. Greg Selinger, MLA for St.

Boniface PUBLIC PRESENTERS: Bill 23–The Fisheries Amendment Act Ms. Amanda Stevenson, WMM Fisheries Co-op Mr. Frank Kenyon, private citizen Mr. Kevin Rebeck, Manitoba Federation of Labour Mr. Sam Murdock, Commercial Fisheries Area 4–Fisher River Cree Nation Mr. Langford Saunder s, Norway House Fisherman's Co-op Mr. Clinton Whiteway, Matheson Island Marketing Co-op Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff, private citizen Mr. David Mackay, Southeast Resource Development Council Corp. Mr. Donald Salkeld, private citizen Mr. Paul McKie, Unifor Ms. Marianne Hladun, Public Service Alliance of Canada Mr.

Darrell Rankin, Communist Party of Canada – Manitoba Bill 27–The Elections Amendment Act Mr. Kevin Rebeck, Manitoba Federation of Labour Mr. Malcolm Bird, private citizen Ms. Ellen Smirl, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives–Manitoba MATTERS UNDER CONSIDERATION: Bill 23 – The Fisheries Amendment Act Bill 27 – The Elections Amendment Act * * * Madam Chairperson: Will the Standing Committee of Legislative Affairs please come to order. Our first item of business is the election of a Vice-Chairperson. Are there any nominations? Mr. Rick Wowchuk (Swan River): Yes, I nominate Dr. Lagimodiere. Madam Chairperson: Mr.

Lagimodiere has been nominated. Are there any other nominations? Hearing no other nominations, Mr. Lagimodiere is elected Vice-Chairperson. This meeting has been called to consider the following bills: Bill 23, The Fisheries Amendment Act; Bill 27, The Elections Amendment Act. I would like to inform all in attendance of the provisions in our rules regarding the hour of adjournment. A standing committee me eting to consider a bill must not sit past midnight to hear public presentations or to consider clause by clause of a bill, except by unanimous consent of the committee.

We have a number of presenters registered to speak tonight as noted on the list of presenters before you. On the topic of determining the order of public presentations, I will note that we have out -of-town presenters in attendance marked with an asterisk on the list. With this consideration in mind, in what order does the committee wish to hear the presentations?

418 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 25, 2017 Mr. Derek Johnson (Interlake): Out-of-town presenters first. Madam Chairperson: Is that agreed by the committee? [Agreed] Before we proceed with presentations, we do have a number of other items and points of information to consider. First of all, if there is anyone else in the audience who would like to make a presentation this evening, please register with staff at the entrance of the room.

Also, for the information of all presenters, while written versions of presentations a re not required, if you are going to accompany your presentation with written materials, we ask that you provide 20 copies. If you need help photocopying, please speak with our staff. As well, in accordance with our rules, a time limit of 10 minutes has been allotted for presentations, with another five minutes allowed for questions from committee members. If a presenter is not in attendance when their name is called, they will be dropped to the bottom of the list.

If the presenter is not in attendance wh en their name is called a second time, they will be removed from the presenters list. Prior to proceeding with public presentations, I would like to advise members of the public regarding the process for speaking in committee. The proceedings of our meetings are recorded in order to provide a verbatim transcript. Each time someone wishes to speak, whether it be an MLA or a presenter, I first have to say the person's name. This is the signal for a Hansard recorder to turn the mics on and off. Thank you for your patience. We will now proceed with public presentations.

Bill 23–The Fisheries Amendment Act Madam Chairperson: We will start with Bill 23, The Fisheries Amendment Act, out -of-town presenters. I will now call upon Amanda Stevenson, president, WMM Fisheries Co-op. Ms. Stevenson, do you have any written materials for distribution to the committee? Ms. Amanda Stevenson (WMM Fisheries Co-op): No, I don't. Madam Chairperson: Please proceed with your presentation. Ms. Stevenson: So, first of all, I would like to say thank you so much for giving myself, and all the other people who are here tonight to present, the opportunity to come and speak to you.

This is a very exciting time. I would first like to read an excerpt from a recent

article from Black lock's in Ottawa: MPs ponder death of Crown corporation called an absolute mess. MPs are questioning whether to wind up a Crown corporation so dysfunctional it failed three audits and fired its CEO. Members of the Commons public accounts committee yesterday cited jaw -dropping misconduct at the agency. This audit is a jaw -dropping evisceration of this entire operation, said MP David Christopherson, New Democratic vice -chair of the committee. I've been here 14 years, and this is among the top three worst au dits I've ever seen on how a Crown corporation is operated in this country.

What an absolute mess. Auditors in May 14th's special examination of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation said management hired unqualified staff for unnecessary positions, purchased useless equipment without board approval and failed to enact reforms recom - mended in previous special audits in 2005 and 2010. Management disregarded key controls, said Clyde MacLellan, assistant auditor general. Management filled positions witho ut job descriptions and filled them without merit-based processes.

We found the board of directors and management failed to meet the responsibilities for oversight, said MacLellan, adding the audit represented the strongest negative assessment we can give in a special examination. I could go on in the article, but that's enough to give you the general idea. It's nice to see that the federal government is finally recognizing some of the difficulties that we've known have existed with the corporation for a very long time, but there is other places that we could have looked.

If you had looked at the DFO, Department of Fisheries and Oceans statistics, the difference between fishermen in Manitoba and Ontario from 2000 to 2011, Manitoba fishermen were put at an economic disadvantage by having no access to the open market and therefore lower average prices. For whitefish in that time span, that

October 25, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 419 was over $30 million in lost economic opportunity. And for pickerel in that same time span, it was over $68 million in lost economic opportunity. * (18:10) There have been some good times, though. There are a few times where different groups were able to get an export dealers licence and –through Freshwater, and have an opportunity to have a small opportunity outside of the monopoly. In 2010 and '11, the co- op that I'm president of , we were able to get a small, limited export dealer's licence just for mullet.

We sold ourselves over 750,000 lbs of mullet in that time period and doubled the income for our member fishermen, who were represented by over five lakes in Manitoba. We were very happy. Things were all going well, and then our licence was taken for what we feel are unjustified reasons by FFMC. So we proceeded to continue trying to draw the federal and provincial governments' attention to the problems and ask for an open market. We're very happy to be seeing the change that's coming here. I always like to try and find positive things. I have nothing to say positive about Freshwater.

All I can say is that having the oppor - tunity to participate in the open market is going to change people's lives. It's going to absolutely, completely transform the economy of lots of small communities in this province. There are many buyers who are just waiting for the chance. There's a lot of people in the communities who are getting organized and are ready to move forward as soon as it's possible.

And I just want to say, on behalf of my members and also a lot of other fishermen who aren't necessarily members but who are excited about the chance, thank you so much for giving us this opportunity, and that you have any questions I– Madam Chairperson: Yes, thank you for presentation. Do members of the committee have questions for the presenter? Mr.–yes, Mr. Altemeyer. Mr. Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): I think that's still me. Thank you very much for your presentation and for making the trip here. Forgive my geographical ignorance.

Your co-op is primarily north basin, south basin, some of both? [interjection] Madam Chairperson: Pardon me. Ms. Stevenson. Ms. Stevenson: Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot. Thank you. Like, we have members –Lake Manitoba, Lake Winnipegosis, Lake St. Martin, lake Dauphin, Red Deer Lake and Cedar Lake. So from a fairly wide area, yes. That's–and we're really, really happy to be able to sell all the fish, not just mullets as well. That's going to be fantastic. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights) : Yes, maybe you can tell us a little bit more about the history of your co- op and how long you've been working at this. Ms.

Stevenson: I'll try to be brief. We've b een–a lot of us fishermen have been working for a long time, probably close to 15 years now, to try and make improvements, first working with F reshwater and then seeing that that was not possible, sadly, and then looking to see if we could convince either the federal or provincial government to make some changes so that we could have different opportunities.

Myself and my dad and a couple other fishermen travelled around many different communities years ago, talking to fishermen about what they saw as the problems in the industry, what they would like to see, what potential solutions were, and that's where the idea came to form a co-op. That happened shortly before we–not too long before we started operating and we started operating in December of 2010, once we were able to secure an export dealer's licence from FFMC. An Honourable Member: Thank you. Ms. Stevenson: You're welcome. Madam Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation.

I will now call upon Frank Kenyon, private citizen. Mr. Kenyon, do you have any written materials for distribution to the committee? Mr. Frank Kenyon (Private Citizen): No, I don't. No. Madam Chairperson: Please proceed with your presentation. Mr. Kenyon: I just imagine how much you lads must imagine me –a bush buddy like me being up here talking to you guys. But I certainly like the opportunity, and I want to do first the thanking. I want to thank provincial Conservatives for –we've

420 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 25, 2017 asked this for 15 years of many governments and many of them had a majority. I don't blame them for not passing this or not doing this. There was a lot of political strife in there, you know. You know yourself better than me; the politicians have to be very careful what they do, and none of them really had the nerve to go ahead and dea l with this. It was kind of public knowledge that there was problems inside Freshwater, so it wasn't as if it was unknown. But you know how politics can play with people, you know.

Many people have suffered, so I'd like to thank the provincial Conservatives, especially Rick Wowchuk, Derek Johnson and Jeff Wharton who have most of the fishermen in our areas. Can he–they campaigned even in nomination on opening up the market, and I can say these are the politicians that kept their word and went through with what they said. And we'd also like to thank the Liberals for when the vote was passed a few days ago; they helped pass that vote. So we'd like to them –for helping pass the vote. We certainly appreciate that .

I've talked to Jon Gerrard many, many years ago in Duck Bay and it's always been very positive. We know there's uncertainty in the new -coming market, but the good things that'll come out of it –it's just unbelievable. As commer cial fishermen, we dump 20 million lbs of fish, of heads and guts –that's estimated, but it's for sure that –and bycatch into our lakes every year. And they contaminate our lakes. And the fish is 0.4 per cent phosphorus. And as we know, in Lake Winnipeg, we have too much phosphorus and nitrogen. The phosphorus is released when the fish dies or when we dump the fish into there.

And all this 20 million lb s can easily be marketed. Our co-op, in 2010 when we started it, that was the idea, to market that fish. S o I should say something about the co -op just shortly, and you'll have to cut me off because I always talk to much. Anyway, the problem was Freshwater was not paying us enough for our mullets to afford to pay the freight to ship them in. Roughly that was kind of the idea. And we don't blame them. Freshwater is a very expensive outfit. If they use a low -quality fish that they can't get a lot of revenue from, it's hard for them to balance their books. We understand that.

But as fishermen, we wanted to try to market it ourselves, because we had foreign buyers begging us for the fish that we were actually dumping in the lake, wasting. And anything you produce, if a carpenter made 10 houses and at the end of the year he was asked to burn five down, even if it's e conomical, he wouldn't be very happy about it, because that's your work, eh. So we got together and we decided we would make a co-op and lobby the provincial NDP for –and Freshwater for an export permit. It was a little difficult.

Nine years ago, we had a protest right outside here and Christine Melnick was good enough to ask Freshwater's John Wood to give us an export permit. Reluctantly, they did that. We had to get buyers. They picked the buyer out for us. It was Mike Schafer. We couldn't just ship anypl ace, they had to okay the buyer. It had to not go into their market; that was the idea. So we got going on this co- op and we started shipping.

We took mullets that we were dumping in the lake, the whole co -op–we have about 300 fishermen in there and 90 per cent are Aboriginal because most –it's 80 per cent Aboriginal fishermen in Manitoba, but 90 per cent in our co- op because it's the remote communities that are having the trouble. They need all the money they can get from the revenue of their fish. If y ou take one third away, they just can't afford to fish. So, anyway, we started shipping fish into–to make it short, after five months, we made a $30,000 profit and we were able to pay ourselves 80 cents a kilogram instead of 35 cents a kilogram.

What that meant is we could economically dress the fish and afford to ship them in and actually make some money. And that fish all went out of Canada. So that was foreign money coming into Canada. Like, there's 20 million lb s of heads and guts and fish that we throw away. That's all going to go to foreign markets. It'll be processed here to make organic fertilizer, too, but it's –they mostly will come in. So, anyway, we shipped and we made a $30,000 profit in five months, paid ourselves 80 cents a kilogram instead of 35, was very successful. And all the politicians were quite happy; it was very successful.

But Freshwater said that we were going into their market and ruining their world market. And it always made me think of how someone like myself that has no ability could outdo them in the world market. But that was why they cancelled the export permit. They cancelled the export permit –to make it as short as possible, they seized $20,000 of our fish at Duck Bay, from Metis and Aboriginal fishermen– some of them are he re tonight. And they took the WMM co-op–the directors and president to court for

October 25, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 421 two years, fines us $4,000 and then gave –Amanda Stevenson, who was just up here, my daughter, a criminal record, which is what she still has. This is all done for fishermen trying to market their fish that the government is forcing them to dump. This is what's wrong with the situation. And the other problems that we have in–with Freshwater that we see is Freshwater was created to help the fishermen, in 1969 was created–we had fish buyers, and they took 50 per cent of our income.

So the government created Freshwater, which is a good idea, to go ahead and make it better for the fishermen. But today, Freshwater takes 65 per cent of our income. That's how it's turned around. And it's not because there's bad people in Freshwater, they're just totally unaccountable. No one makes them accountable. The provincial Conservatives are the first government that's going to make them accountable, and I think they did a real wise thing.

Because they didn't just go out to destroy Freshwater, they just said, we're going to have an open market so fishermen who want to support Freshwater in an open market can sell to Freshwater. Freshwater's going to have an opportunity to make themselves more efficient, to work it–to deal in the business place. And I have some fishermen come and say, oh, no, Frank, you should have to be forced to ship to Freshwater, because if you don't, Freshwater's going to go broke. I said, why?

They said, because they won't be able to do business in the open market. * (18:20) Well, this is the way I look at it: Freshwater's got a $50- million loan from the federal government. Fisherman have built up that whole thing in Transcona there, totes and everything else, 40 years of business experience, they got the head salesman flying all over the world, they've got all the workers build up in Transcona. They have the support of all the fishermen if they would pay the fishermen; all of us would ship there, but we don't get paid, we only get paid half as much as Ontario.

So why is it so hard to imagine that Freshwater couldn't compete with other foreign companies that have to come in and persuade the fishermen, now you have to deal with them ? We had 40 years of Freshwater. The system i s very good, shipping and everything else. The problem is we don't get paid and we don't have no say. And that's –and the other problem with Freshwater–make sure you watch my 10 minutes because it's liable to go over–the other problem is the environment.

The environment is not only dumping of the fish –Freshwater's market is for the baby pickerel that haven't spawned yet, baby pickerel that haven't spawned. So that's what they pay the best price first. The carp and mullet's the other fish in the lake they don't want because they can't make money off o f them. That's understandable. But as a fisher- man, they're telling me if I don't put small nets in that lake and catch those baby pickerel that haven't spawned yet, you're not going to make money. So what do we do? That's the fish we target.

We go into pickerel holes, we put small nets in, as small as we legally can –in Lake Manitoba it's three and three quarter, Lake Winnipeg three inch, and we catch those baby pickerel that haven't spawned yet. This will all c hange on December 1st because our foreign markets like China and all them, they want larger fish. They want bigger fish. They want the carp, they want the mullets, the jacks, those are the species they want, not so much the pickerel. So fishermen now will target the carp and the mullets and get them out of the lake.

The problem with them being in the lake, biologists tell us that the carp and mullets, the lower class fish, are very hearty, more hearty than pickerel. So they can compete with pickerel, drive them out of the areas because they can live in warmer water, they can live in more stagnant water, dirtier water, pickerel can't. So the pickerel just can't compete with these stronger fish. At the same time, you have the anglers and you have the commerci al fishermen, if they're going to sell to Freshwater, targeting the baby pickerel, you know. So those are some of the things.

Far as foreign investment, we already have millions of dollars put into Manitoba even before the market's open. We have Gimli under construction for a processing plant. Riverton's almost finished with a $3-million plant. We have another one in St. Laurent, the land's only been bought, and in Oak Point, the land's only been bought. And we have five buyers after December 1st besides F reshwater. People can say, well, they haven't done nothing yet, well, they can't until December 1st.

So we can say they won't do nothing, that's fine, but they're putting lots of money into this if they're not going to do nothing, and they're millionaires so they've got to have things figured out. And two of these buyers are all ready to take our fish to China and sold fish in China successfully. Eva Luke [phonetic] who bought land in Oak Point took 40,000 lbs of year -old frozen fish from Freshwater

422 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 25, 2017 about six months ago and sold it in China and made good money. She comes to me and she says, Frank, if we can get fresh fish that all can go to China, can all be round, it will all be very valuable, you know. So, as a commercial fisherman, I understand some fisherman will be concerned about the future because we had Freshwater for 40 years, you know, they've done everything for us. But at the same time, after December 1st, we'll have five buyers, plus, we have Freshwater, and we have premium market fish, and we won't have to be forced to dump our fish.

So that's –you guys did pretty good to listen to that for that long. That's amazing. Right, Rick? Yes. And the most worst thing about the whole thing is that I feel baddest about is the northern Aboriginal fishermen, like fishermen from Duck Bay, you know, from Moose Lake. When that fish was seized on July 15th, there was six boats in Duck Bay employing three or four young Aboriginal fishermen fishing around the lake. After that fish was seized in July 15th, 2011, only one boat was left.

Now these young Aboriginal fishermen and the whole crew, they have two choices: they can stay in Duck Bay because there's no other employment there and go on welfare and be a cost, or else they can leave their community and go get j obs elsewhere. And , traditionally, First Nations and Aboriginal people have sailed around the lakes, they've traditionally fished at, that's why we have 80 per cent of the commercial fishermen Aboriginal. So it's really the hardest on the Aboriginal fisher men a nd the Aboriginal families, you know– Madam Chairperson: Mr. Kenyon. Mr. Kenyon, your time has expired for presentation.

Thank you very much for your presentation. Are there –do the members of the committee have questions for the presenter? Hon. Rochelle Squires (Minister of Sustainable Development): Well, I don't so much as have a question, but just want to thank you, Mr. Kenyon, for coming down here to make your presentation. And I really look forward to working with you and Miss Stevenson, and all the fishers that you represent, not only in getting good value for your product, but also working together with you and your fishers on sustainability practices for our fisheries. So thank you so much for coming down here tonight. Mr.

Gerrard: Thanks, Frank, and you make a really good point about –this will take pressure off the harvesting of very young pickerel, which are not producing eggs yet and not spawning yet. Floor Comment: Could I–comment on that? Mr. Gerrard: Just let me finish my –but I wil l also want you to comment on–there's been a concern about the overharvesting of the really, really big walleye on Lake Winnipeg, and tell me what'll happen with them as well. Mr. Kenyon: Yes, sorry. Thanks for catching me before I said anything.

Well, in all these things, you see fishermen when they're really down and out and not making much money, they're desperate. They want that little three - inch net to catch that baby pickerel. They want to catch that big female pickerel because they're really hard up for money. This new market will bring money into commercial fishermen's hands. When they're getting paid well for their fish, they're going to be much more acceptable to screening themselves on their fishing, on their size of the nets and everything e lse. There'll be money in the situation.

As far as the large pickerel, my own personal opinion, we shouldn't target any pickerel before they've spawned. That's for sure, that. And when we have too many sizes, we target the pickerel all the way through. There's a good year class come up and, as a fisherman, I can go three inch, three and a quarter, three and a half, three and three quarter, four inch, four and a half, five inch, six inch. Every good year class, I can target that pickerel. I can catch 'em all the way up. And that's not really a good way to be harvesting the lake.

But the main thing is that we leave them alone for spawning even in Lake Manitoba now, because we're getting our markets in China we have a three and three quarter inch net which catches about small pickerel about that size.

And a lot of fishermen now are quite willing to go to a four or four and a quarter for economic reasons, because we're going to get paid for the wrong fish we don't address, we'll have a bigger fish to catch, and that–if Lake Manitoba does that, there's roughly 112,000 pickerel that get caught in Lake Manitoba every year, there'll be 50,000 female pickerel natural spawning in Lake Manitoba every year, 50,000. That's 500,000 in 10 years on that simple move like t hat. And the fishermen are quite –there's a few that don't want to

October 25, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 423 give up their three and three quarter, but this market will come through, that money will be there, and in a group like the co- op, why we like that is it can influence a whole bunch of fishermen. We can get together and we can say, yes, this makes sense for everybody, and it's much easier to operate.

And I believe it's going to be better all the way around, and I hope it turns out that way, because I certainly don't want –people still–some f ishermen are still scared to be without Freshwater, and myself, I don't have that fear, but it is uncertainty and we have to understand that, you know. Mr. Altemeyer: Thank you, sir, for coming down to share your personal expertise. I have a question an d, you know, forgive my perimeteritis being a Winnipegger and not someone who gets to fish on our great lakes like you do.

If I understand your presentation, which I much appreciated, the demand–the price paid for the small fish is hig her. That would be t he target. Now, if we have increased fish processing capacity being built around the lake, presumably that's going to mean each one of those investor groups wants to get those fish, wants to get all the fish. The quota system and sustainability practices should be there to make sure that we don't cause unnecessary harm to the fish stocks.

But, if a whole bunch of additional plant capacity is built around the lake, how do we make sure that, you know, the dynamic that you just talked about doesn't end up lea ding to a deteriorating fish stock? Mr. Kenyon: Sorry about that. Well, first of all, we're not talking about overfishing pickerel; that's all covered by quotas. The Manitoba fisheries have to control that. That's – and you can lower the quota or raise the quota according to your test stats and fishermen are going to be more acceptable with that. But in reality, when Freshwater was created, Manitoba produced 50 million lb s of fish.

The North, like Pukatawagan then, had seven million lbs of fish, now they have almost nothing, because all these other underutilized species under this Freshwater, we just waste, we just threw them away. * (18:30) So, when all these other processes has come up, we hear this: Freshwater can't exist with all these existing, too. But , if you go from 20 million to 50 million, 20 million was what Freshwater is getting now. Well, not really 20 million because they fixed the books, but pretty close to 18 million, okay. No, that's right.

They glue the suckers' heads on twice, but we won't get to that, but–[interjection] Madam Chairperson: Mr. Kenyon, unfortunately we have reached the end of our question period time. Thank you very much for your information. Thank you for your presentation. I will now call upon Kevin Rebeck, Manitoba Federation of Labour. Mr. Rebeck, do you have any written materials for distribution to the committee? Mr. Kevin Rebeck (Manitoba Federation of Labour): No, I don't. Madam Chairperson: Go ahead with your presentation. Mr. Rebeck : Can I give another minute to Mr. Kenyon? He's a great speaker.

I enjoy hearing his stories. Madam Chairperson: Unfortunately, we have many presenters tonight. Go ahead. Mr. Rebeck : Great. The Manitoba Federation of Labour is Manitoba's central labour body. We represent over 100,000 unionized workers in our province. This bill would eliminate the monopoly that the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, a federal Cro wn corporation, has in the marketing of freshwater fish in Manitoba. FFMC was created in 1969 and it's located right here in Winnipeg.

It was designed to give our small fishing communities strength and stability of price and quality, similar to the Canad ian Wheat Board's monopoly, which was dismantled by the Harper government. FFMC purchases and processes fish from over 1,200 commercial Manitoba fishers, many of them in remote northern locations. Hundreds more fishers from Saskatchewan and the Northwest Territories also send their fish through Freshwater Fish. Fish such as pickerel, sauger, perch, mullet, northern pike, carp, go through this Winnipeg facility. FFMC generates tens of millions of dollars of economic activity annually.

We're concerned abou t the impacts this bill would have not only on the fishers who rely on FFMC but also the people who work at the FFMC itself in Winnipeg.

424 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 25, 2017 While this bill would still provide the option to sell through the FFMC, we've seen this movie before with the Canadi an Wheat Board where ending the single desk system negatively impacts producers and has led to job losses. We know that the majority of the economic activity at FMMC comes from Manitoba. Ending the monopoly will likely lead to job losses and threaten the economic security and stability of Manitoba fishers, many of them small operators.

As we saw with the dismantling of the W heat Board, a number of small producers went out of business and the negative economic impacts have been felt throughout the province, including the town of Churchill, which had relied on the wheat board monopoly marketing system and its grain shipment through the ports. We've all seen the economic consequences this is having on Churchill today. We're concerned about the lack of explanation from the government on what will be done to protect jobs at FFMC and to protect small fisheries that are served by FFMC.

We're also concerned about the lack of explanation about what the government plans to do for workers who might be impacted if the FFMC does close its doors as a result of the bill. There hundreds of good- paying jobs that we're talking about. People are engineers, skilled tradespeople, assembly-line workers who make decent wages that can help them support their families and contri bute to our economy. Putting these jobs at risk by withdrawing Manitoba from the monopoly is unfair to these workers, to their families, and it would mean good-paying jobs are being taken out of the economy.

I'd hope this government's having conversations with the federal government about the long- term vision of FFMC. The government should be working to support good- paying jobs that allow families to build bright futures, not making decisions that could put those jobs at risk. We urge this government to reconsider its approach and continue the single desk FFMC to support jobs and economic benefits for northern and fishing communities here in Winnipeg, and I'd encourage involving and making sure that that FFMC is managed and supported and run with a board that has voices like Mr.

Kenyon's and other fishermen, that their concerns are being heard and dealt with appropriately. Thank you. Madam Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. Do members of the committee have questions for the presenter? Mr. Gerrard: How many people are currently working at the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation? Mr. Rebeck: I don't have the exact number, but I think it's in the realm of two to four hundred, somewhere in that range. Mr. Altemeyer: Thanks very much for coming down. You do a very good job of bringing good perspective to lots of bills here in the building.

As, you know, head of a very important organization in our province, can you give us a sense of, you know, how the workers and their families are feeling, knowing that their jobs at Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, the processing plant here in Transcona, could be under threat or change in some way with very little input from them. Can you give us a sense of just how they're holding up with this development by the government? Mr.

Rebeck: I know some of the unions directly working with those workers are speaking tonight as well, but I would imagine they would be feeling some unease and some frustration about what does this proce ss mean, what might this result , a nd, if there is going to be a change or if there's going to be layoffs or changes coming, what supports are there in place to help them find transitions elsewhere and use those skills and make sure they stay here in Manitoba and continue to contribute to our economy. Mr. Altemeyer: Yes, thank you.

A supplemental to exactly that: to your knowledge and –perhaps, as you say, future presenters might be able to enlighten us further tonight, has the government reached out to the workforce at the Transcona plant at all with an indication of what is going to happen? Are there going to be any supports provided, or is –has it just been radio silence so far? Mr.

Rebeck: Yes, I'm not aware of any of those discussions happening, and I'm hopeful that it's not too late to make sure those discussions take place and that the provincial government and federal government together can make sure that they address those types of concerns. Mr. Altemeyer: Yes, one final comment. I mean, as the official opposition critic, on behalf of our party, anyways, please pass on our support to those

October 25, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 425 workers, and we will certainly strive to see that the government does reach out to them and, you know, at least provide some information. We're going to hear, and h ave already heard, a wide range of views tonight, and I think it's incumbent upon the govern- ment to be engaging everyone, not just some of the interests that will be here in the room tonight, and the workers absolutely deserve to be part of that conversation. So, please, pass that on if you have a chance. Mr. Rebeck: Thank you very much. Madam Chairperson: Okay. Thank you for your presentation.

I will now call upon Sam Murdock, Commercial Fishers Area 4 –Fisher River Cree Nation. Mr. Murdock, do you have any written materials for distribution to the committee? Mr. Sam Murdock (Commercial Fishers Area 4 – Fisher River Cree Nation): Yes, I do. Madam Chairperson: Okay. Please proceed with your presentation. Mr. Murdock: First of all, I just want to take this opportunity to thank the members of Parliament for hearing the presentation that I'm about to deliver–just got to put on my glasses here. Age is starting to catch up to me.

So, after much discussion with our leadership, Chief Crate and his council me mbers along with our commercial fishers as well as our legal counsel and those that are involved with this–within this industry, we came up with issues that would directly affect us and the challenges that we face. The open market reality in Manitoba puts pressure on the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation to adjust its business model. It is imperative to our northern economies that a viable method of processing, marketing and keeping the fishery sustainable is found.

The most at -risk populations are Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, Northwest Territories, indigenous fishers. It is estimated by way of payment geography that over 80 per cent of fishers are indigenous. Of Freshwater 49 delivery points, 42 of them are in communities comprised of predominantly indigenous Canadians. Many of these fishers would be financially 'roained' should they not be able to sell their catch to FFMC.

If we have learned anything from the province of Saskatchewan pulling out of the act and still having 100 per cent of its commercial fishers' harvest still being sold to FFMC, it is that very few dependable options exist for inland fishers to sell their ca tch. Using this as an example, we can expect Manitoba fishers to be in a similar situation. The provincial politics will not change the need. FFMC has also invested heavily in assuring food security for our local and export markets. We feel this could be compromised if FFMC were not to exist. We are at a crossroads in this industry.

The government of Manitoba has a legal obligation and duty to consult with the First Nation leaders and its community members that are directly affected by this decision made by the governments of the day.

And as a result, legal action is currently being explored. * (18:40) We see the greatest challenges facing us today as being our ability to (1) sell and transport our catch; guarantee food safety for export; carry on with a sustainable fishery for generations to come; start -up costs for the locally based fish -packing facilities; provincial loans program; the CEDF, the Communities Economic Development Fund; employment insurance; the current relationship between FFMC and Ser vice Canada to a federal institution that is part of Employment and Social Development Canada; annual profit -sharing by FFMC to fishers based on individual production; posted guaranteed prices based on market; the ability to sell all species harvested by c atch–meaning the bycatch that was earlier talked about; the loss of the current prov incial northern freight subsidy; a nd the recommendations that we discussed in order to keep the freshwater fish industry safe.

A nd viable fishers need to be able to sell th eir catch to F reshwater Fish or a reasonable, dependable alterative with similar business and transportation supports to accommodate northern, indigenous fishers. Without FFMC or a similar alternative, many communities will suffer greatly. For example, F isher River First Nation commissioned a study that found losing FFMC would cost their community $600,000 annually. And I'm talking about social assistance programs. And it's our goal, and the leadership's goal, to try our best to have as many people as–employed as possible.

But , when you live on a First Nation community, that reality is very hard to come by. So every time opportunity comes up, we try and grab it. But when something is sustainable, as

426 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 25, 2017 it is today, and is taken away, then it gives us a greater–well, the efforts of trying to employ everybody is very limited. And this is a huge impact on a First Nation that depends on commercial fishing. The impact is expected to be even greater in other, more isolated First Nation communities.

We see two pot ential outcomes to avoid economic catastrophe: one, FFMC continue on as a focus–is focusing on improvements as a dependable place for fishers to sell their catch on an open market; two, FFMC be taken over by a commercial - fisher-owned, interprovincial co- operative with proportionate indigenous representation. The co- op would have an advisory committee of commercial fishers elected based on regional representation that will elect board of directors from the advisory committee to government co-operative. Thanks. Madam Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation.

Do members of the committee have questions for the presenter? Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns ): Miigwech, Mr. Sam Murdock. Miigwech for your presentation. I'm just curious if you can provide some information in respect of this government's consulting with Fisher River Cree Nation and with chief and council. Mr. Murdock: There was no consultation taking place. Madam Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to allow follow-up questions? [Agreed] Ms. Fontaine: So–and–so none of the ministers have met–or any of the government staff have met with chief and council from Fisher River? Mr. Murdock: No. Mr.

Altemeyer: Thank you, Mr. Murdock, for making the tr ip and bringing your important contribution directly here to the Legislature, as this committee hears, as I said, from a wide range of voices. First question for you, just to be clear: Fisher River Cree Nation's position on this legislation would be in favour, or opposed? Mr. Murdock: Opposed. [interjection] Madam Chairperson: Mr. Altemeyer. My apologies, I have to acknowledge you before you continue with the question. Mr.

Altemeyer: Could you please explain for the benefit of everyone on the committee the constitutional duty that a government has to conduct proper consultations with a First Nations com - munity? Because I don't think in this era of reconciliation, which is proceeding way too slowly, I don't think people here in the south and outside of indigenous communities get to hear the legal truth and the legal arguments that have evolved because indigenous leadership has fought to have their rights recognized.

And you wrote an excellent –your community wrote an excellent letter to the previous minister laying out exactly what those are. I wondered if you would be kind enough to share a bit of a synopsis or a

summary here of the legal basis for that and the obligations all of us have as treaty people to honour those commitments. Mr. Murdock: Thank you very much for the question. I know it's a legal question, and I –we do have our legal counsel sitting in the audience, but I believe that this process went through the Supreme Court and, as a result of that, the duty to consult has to take place in order for anything, even such as Bill 23, I believe, to become legal. I mean, it is going to affect a lot of lives. We're looking at well over 200 families that are going to be affected by this decision, just in our area.

And I –we haven't heard of any govern- ments going to–or this government going to other First Nation communities to meet with the leadership. And I just wanted to state here that our leadership, if it's an issue to deal with health, they'll have the people at the table regarding health. If it's to do with industry such as fishing, commercial fishing, then they'll have the people that are directly affected there as well. So that process hasn't happened. Mr.

Gerrard: Sam, I think you were chair of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation at one time, so you've got a lot of experience about how things work, and that certainly'd be respected. Tell us how many fishers there are in Fisher River and give us a little bit of information about –do you haul them down to Transcona, or is there somebody who comes up and picks the fish up, or how does that work?

October 25, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 427 Mr. Murdock: Well, we have two delivery points. One's located on the west shores of Lake Winnipeg, which is McBeth Point. Fish is packed and–at that location and then a barge picks it up and then it's– from there freighted to Matheson Island and by road to the plant at Plessis and Regent. The second delivery point is off of Goodman's Landing and the fish is picked up by a semi truck. So, in terms of the amount of fishers I'm talking about in that area, would be about 148 commercial fishers and also including their helpers, now that number, of course, doubles.

Madam Chairperson: The time for questioning has now expired. Thank you very much for your presentation. I will now call on Langford Sa unders, president, Norway House Fisherman's Co-op. Mr. Saunders, do you have any written materials for distribution to the committee? Mr. Langford Saunder s (Norway House Fisherman's Co-op): No, I don't. Madam Chairperson: Go ahead with your presentation. Mr. Saunders: Well, first of all, I'd like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to come and voice my concern and our concern of our fisherman's co-op. First of all, I'll explain where I'm coming –where I'm from.

As part of the –as far as the presenters, I'm the more –the most northern community at this time, making a presentation here. My community's Norway House Cree Nation. I –it's located in Playgreen Lake, north tip of Lake Winnipeg. It takes eight hours to get to Winnipeg. It takes an hour flight, an hour-and-15-minute flight to get to Norway House. We–since the announcement that was made, it caused so much concern in our community, in my fishers' community.

When I seen on TV the announcement of dismantling Freshwater, and to see the chief of Norway House standing beside the ministers making that announcement, it was very disturbing for us, the fishermen, because nobody came and talked to us about the announcement that's going–be about to happen. * (18:50) We have a very high unemployment rate in our community. Fishing provides employment for our fishers, also the helpers. We–the employment that we create is about 1,500 people out of 6,000 people. The economic spinoff of our commercial fishing is a 'bingpact' into our –impact into our community .

We feel that this –what's happening here is pushing us back to where we started off from. I'll go back 1929. Warren Landing there was four fish -packing sheds, fish- packing areas there. Private buyers. Montreal Point, there was one. Spider Islands, there was two. 1929, I lost my grandfather. He was fishing in a sailboat that was being tugged out to fish in the open grounds for the fish–the companies that he was working for. He was 19 years old. He had a child, who was m y father. He had another one on the way. That was my auntie. So what happened at that time had a big impact on us. My father grew up.

He was as –he migrated to Norway House down through the York Factory route to find employment, my grandfather. He did in Warren Landing. By doing this, by making this bill, by creating this problem that we have today, we're going back, step back, way back, way back. Our co-op was established 1962. Fifty-five years we've been existing. Out of those 55 years, 50 years of it has with–been with Freshwater. Maybe more, maybe less.

It hasn't been all good, but it is all we had and it was a good way of –we didn't have to worry about a problem–our problems of once we get off our boats, off the lake, then to market our own fish. We had a place that was established by our members that were board of directors at that time when they established the co -op that we can go directly to the sheds, sell our fish, then our worries are over. It was the co -op. Then, being partnered with Freshwater at that time –the co -op establishing the partnership created that safety zone for us. I hear that there's fish buyers out there.

Yes, prior to the announcement, we got asked to go to chief and council chambers where there was a meeting that was happening. T here was a –what do you call that thing when you have somebody on TV? [interjection] Media conference. Sorry. Anyways, there was a Chinese lady there and another ex-politician that was there that brought her in to talk to us, offered us 25 cents a kilogram for all species. Fast forward a year, that same lady I seen at the last meeting that I was attended came and asked, there's no plan in place. There is no–they're not planning to set up a plant –processing plant anywhere.

Instead, she did phone me and ask me if my –our fish –our plant itself, can it do the work for them. I said– I didn't even respond back, because there's a big hoopla created here that there is an open -market

428 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 25, 2017 system and this is what's going to happen, but at the end of the day we know what's going to happen. When I look back at 1929 when there was four fish buyers in the Warren Landing, where our fishermen was not even paid dollars. Instead, they were being given a piece of paper and say you can take this to the co -op, and you– your credit –that's your credit, not knowing how much their fish was being bought. It is a passion for me to express my concern of our–my fishermen, because if I do not do it, who will.

Just like I brought 49 fishers with me to speak on their behalf , today, we s ign a five -year agreement with Freshwater marketing board. One of those 50 members is the chief of Norway House, Chief Ron Evans. He's a member of our co -op. He signed that agreement. It is very concerning for me, for us, not knowing what's coming because I –when I started I told you where I was from, how to get to Norway House, how in anybody's right mind will go up that far and buy fish where they can get fish within an hour from Winnipeg? Doesn't make sense. And I'm just central Manitoba. Guess what's going to happen north of me?

Wabowden, Cross Lake, Nelson House, Split Lake, York Factory, York Landing, Thompson, The Pas, Roussin, all those communities, Ilford, that commercial fish, what's going to happen to them? The opportunities of providing employment for our c ommunities are going to go down. I know if this happens our fishery, it's all in Norway House, is going to go down. We are impacted by this information. Also, we've been impacted by Manitoba Hydro development since they established in 1971 or 1963, whateve r, Hydro opened up 2-Mile and 8-Mile. We're impacted. So I plead with you, do you understand where our concerns are?

And we're open the doors for anybody that wants to come and talk to us and talk to our other fishers. I will leave you with that. I'm ver y passionate and when I speak, and I always give thanks to the Master upstairs for what I say. I don't have anything in front of me, but I speak from here. Thank you. Madam Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. Does the–do the members of the committee have questions for the presenter? Ms. Squires: Thank you, sir, for coming here tonight to present to us. And, again, I don't necessarily have a question for you.

I've listened very carefully and I would like to just offer you my commitment that I look forward to working with you and all the fishers that you represent. Mr. Saunders: Thank you. Ms. Fontaine: No, I'll pass. Mr. Altemeyer: I scarcely know where to begin. Mr. Saunders, you should feel very proud of the presentation that you've given here tonight.

You can, in all honesty, go back and look all 49 of your colleagues in the eye and tell them you did a great honour to the issues that they are facing and to the pain and the hurt that will hopefully be avoided somehow, but which is undeniably a potential for your community. And I just want to say it's completely unfair how this has been done, the absence of consultation and the, really, the disrespect that has been shown to the entire North in not looking at what the impacts are going to be in communities like yours. And I'm wondering perhaps there might be a way to build on the minister's comment just now.

Perhaps, well, would your community be able to host the minister perhaps before this legislation is passed? Maybe the legislation can b e delayed for a time so she can come to your community and engage in proper consultations directly between the Crown and the leadership of your community, yourself included. Is that something that you would like to see before this legislation passes? Mr. S aunders: Of course, and so is every other community that's been affected. We alone cannot change the mind of the minister, it's a provincial - wide issue and it has to be dealt with that way. Mr. Gerrard: Thank you.

I've been up in Norway House and impresse d by the activity of fishers like yourself up in Norway House. * (19:00) It plays –the fishery plays quite a role in economically in the community. Maybe you could tell us a little bit more about that, and I don't know if you've got any sort of numbers in terms of the dollars that are brought in, but I would think it has a substantial impact. Mr. Saunders: Okay. In regards to how much quota that we harvest: first of all, we fish from June to

October 25, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 429 maybe second week in July in the summer. We fished–we fish in the second week in September 'til the second week, third week in October, norm ally. We harvest approximately 108,000 kilograms of fish–quota fish from Lake Winnipeg. Majority of our fishery on Lake Winnipeg is whitefish. Seventy-five per cent of our catch used to be whitefish. Now it's more like 85 per cent, 90 per cent. We had–we used to catch some pickerel, but there's no pickerel now that is coming up north.

We have a quota on lake– Playgreen Lake that has been affected by the hydro development project. We have 100,000 kilograms of quota there. In the last six years, seven years–maybe more than that, I guess, we only took 50 per cent of that quota every year. And, in regarding jobs, you have –a fisherman has two helpers. There's 50 helpers, so 50 times three is what? So and then you look at their families, each household has about five family members. Times that by, what? So you can do your multiplications, you add them up. It is close to 1,500 people that is affected.

And, in regards to the dollar amount, we help the economy over a million dollars every year. Madam Chairperson : Thank you very much for your presentation. The time for questions has expired. Thank you very much. You may have a seat. Mr. Greg Selinger (St. Boniface): I wonder if we could give the MLA representing the area an opportunity to make a brief comment or question. Madam Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to allow the MLA for The Pas to ask a question? [Agreed] Ms.

Amanda Lathlin (The Pas): First of all, Langford, I want to welcome you, and I'm very honoured to have you here today speaking on be half of our community. In August, I had the honour to sit with our fishermen who met with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans in –at your fishery co -op office there. There I sat for a good –an hour and a half listening to our fishermen talk about their concerns and the consequences regarding this bill. And also, too, it was an honour to look at the pictures of our past board of directors on the wall.

You know, a lot of our elders were up there, and to me that just showed many, many generations that will be affected and–by fishing in our own traditional territory. So, with that, I just want to share that I was there to listen, talk to what– many of our families there, and after that, it was as usual in our culture, we share a meal afterwards. And, again, I just want to thank you for coming here and expressing and relating your concerns to our minister regarding this bill. Thank you, Langford. Madam Chairperson: Mr. Saunders, do you have a response? Mr. Saunders: Thank you.

Madam Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. I will now call upon Clinton Whiteway, Matheson Island Marketing Co-op. Mr. Whiteway, do you have any written material for distribution to the committee? Mr. Clinton Whiteway (Matheson Island Marketing Co-op): Yes, I do. Madam Chairperson: Please proceed with your presentation. Mr. Whiteway: Good evening, everybody. First of all, everybody hears me loud and clear? I'm not used to being on a mic. Good? So I'm speaking on behalf of Matheson Island co-op. Also, a concerned fisherman myself.

So we at the Matheson Island co- op have been in business since 1962, my grandfather being one of the founders of the co -op. We've been operating as a fishing community since 1969. We've heavily relied on the Freshwater Fish Marketing co-op to buy our fish and market our fish for our fishers over these years. We currently have 120 active fishers from Matheson Island, Pine Dock, Princess Harbour, Bloodvein, Fisher River, that rely on our co-op.

We, as a co -op produced, 469,060 kg of pickerel, 61,383 kg of sauger, 91,973 kg of whitefish in the year 2016; 2017, to date, we have produced 437,557 kg pickerel and 21,290 kg of sauger, 110– 766 thousand whitefish, not to mention all the countless bycatch that is sold to Freshwater. Our forefathers have told us about the rough times they had when the fish companies were in business. On Matheson Island alone, I believe, there was probably half a dozen companies at one time. They never knew what they would be getting for their catch when they came in off the lake. They

430 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 25, 2017 never knew if they were going to be able to sell their catch when they came of the lake. Simply put, they were owned by the fish companies. Adding to my material, I remember my grand- fathers and forefathers speaking th at they would be promised 50 cents a lb , let's just use that as a example, in the morning. Well, if you weren't the first three or four boats to come and fill their freezer, by the end of the day –you might have been the top producer of the day, now you get two cents–he has nowhere to sell it, nowhere to put it.

Whereas the single-desk Freshwater –the marketing corporation– all the fish is –all legally fish caught is bought by Freshwater. With the FFMC the fishers know what they are getting for their –each species that they are bringing in to sell. They can purchase their nets and they are needing to try to get the most profitable catch for their quota. They know the payments are made for CDF and employment insurance. They know they can rely on them to market our catch and get the best price to us.

We, as fishers, in turn, see this from returns we receive on our final payments when they are able to get a better price for our fish and have passed that along to fishers. If they profit, we profit. If Freshwater is shut down, then where do we go? We have nothing. We're a three -hour drive from Winnipeg. In order us–for us to sell our fish, we need to have someone to sell it to. As of this date, we have not had any other possible buyers to buy our fish. This is our l ivelihood. This is what clothes and feeds the houses of our community and surrounding communities. This is the only employment they know.

Fishing has been passed down from gen- eration to generation in these communities. As we a ll know how well opting out of Freshwater Fish worked for Saskatchewan, they are still selling their fish harvest to FFMC. What makes you think that Manitoba's going to be any different? A good portion of the fishers are already signing contracts with FFMC as there is no other option currently available. So, in closing, we want the government to think long and hard on how many lives they are going to destroy with opting out of the fresh fish water –fresh fish act.

We believe the government needs to work harder on helping FFMC become m ore accountable, rather than throwing the act out. Thank you. Madam Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation. Do members of the committee have questions for the presenter? Mr. Altemeyer: Thank you, sir, for coming in, making the trip to bring your views here. A very strong presentation. First question for you: Was your community consulted directly by the government before they made the announcement they wanted to pull out of FFMC? Mr. Whiteway: No. We–not as far as I know.

Other than the meeting with DFO last summer but, of course, that was way beyond the fact that this bill had been introduced. * (19:10) Mr. Altemeyer: And what was the reaction from your membership when they learned that n ot only was a third party, the Fisheries envoys, going be asked to go and talk to fishers rather than direct consultation with the government, but what was the reaction of your members when they learned the government had already told the envoys doing that work they weren't going to listen to whatever they wrote in their report because they'd already made their decision?

That story emerged publicly in the media and was a big shock to me, but I'd be interested to know what you as a fisher and your community –how that made you feel to know that that was the govern- ment's concept of consultation with fishers. Mr. Whiteway: You're talking with –the meeting with DFO? Mr. Altemeyer: Yes. There's been a couple of different fisheries envoys that have been traveling in the province, one of them federal, one of them provincial. Did the provincial fisheries envoy come to your community, talk to your co-op? Mr.

Whiteway: No, and like I say, the federal did come through but, basically, many moons after the provincial government had decided to impose this. Mr. Gerrard: What I'd like you to tell us a little bit about is the Saskatchewan experience, that people ended up using the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation and whether you think that that's likely to happen this time around for Manitoba, even with the market open.

October 25, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 431 Mr. Whiteway: Well, I mean, I think the writing is on the wall as far as that goes.

I mean I'm speaking on behalf –the research that I have about Saskatchewan, isn't–I don't have a whole lot of facts other than the common knowledge that that's going on is that even like after opting out and deciding they were going to have their own plants and they were going to move their own fish, and all of a sudden there's all the logistics involved in gettin g this fish, for one thing, from the northern communities just to a plant, let alone all over the world where these phantom buyers are apparently going to buy, which– I believe now a lot of these fishermen are–almost 100 per cent of them are selling back to FFMC with no benefits of the EI and no benefits of the logistics that they had in the past.

So, in comparison to their province to ours, I don't know why you wouldn't think that that's–good chance that's going to happen. Mr. Altemeyer: Yes, one further q uestion, if I may. Has the provincial government been in any conversations with your co- op about their intentions around the freight assistance?

Of course, fishers in the north basin would have a much tougher time getting their catch to market than fishers in the south basin, and I'm wondering, have there been any conversations that you are aware of discussing what the government intends to do, because currently the practice, of course, is to support northern fishers so they can get their catch to market an d earn a living same as everyone else. So, if you have any insights or comments on that, I'd love to hear it. Mr. Whiteway: No. There's been no consultation that I know of, of the provincial government.

However, yes, there is a lot of logistics that go on between me and these other fishermen taking that fish out of the lake into your boat and getting it to where it needs to go, and a lot of times within 24 hours of when it came out of the lake. Our delivery point at Matheson, the fish gets trucked in daily, okay. So that's a six and a half hour turnaround. For instance, communities a little north of us, Berens River and what not, the fish is barged in. There's ice that needs to be provided–who's going to–what private enterprise is going to be worried about all the stuff that needs to be worried about?

There's a lot more than just buying the fish, okay. It has to get to the buyer. Like, a private enterprise is going to be worried about one thing, and it's the bottom line, and you get a bunch of them in the mix, supply and demand, who's guaranteeing anything. Right now FFMC is obligated to give a price – and their price has fluctuated through the season, but mostly only for an increase, not a decrease. I mean you know what you're getting at the beginning of the season. What more do you want? You got to go out and catch the fish.

Don't get me wrong, there has been issues with FFMC that do need to be looked upon, monthly, quarterly, whatever, and that's why I mention in the last line, government needs to work harder on helping FFMC become more accountable rather than throwing them out– Madam Chairperson: Mr. Whiteway, the time for questions has expired. Thank you very much for your presentation. I will now call upon Tom Nevakshonoff, private citizen. Mr. Nevashkonoff [phonetic], do you have any written materials for distribution to the committee? Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Private Citizen ): No, I don't.

Madam Chairperson: Please proceed with your presentation. Mr. Nevakshonoff: First of all, congratulations on that valiant effort to pronounce Nevakshonoff. Gary Doer couldn't get it right in the 10 years that I worked with him, so thank you for that. And I'd also like to just acknowledge the members of the committee and the staff as well.

Having had the opportunity to sit in this room for thousands of hours myself, I know that these are very long days, that a lot of you are looking at 18- hour days, so congratulations to all of you for the hard work that you do on behalf of the people of Manitoba, and congratulati ons to the new members that are here as well. I wish them well. I'd like to begin on, I think, what is the most important component of this whole question, and that is the

section 35 constitutional duty to consult and to sincerely seek to accommodate the needs of indigenous people in this land when it comes to something like this, which is fundamental to the very survival of indigenous communities across this land. I've read that the government's response is that this does not infringe upon their constitutional rights to hunt and fish for food, but I would suggest that the commercial fishery is so fundamental to the survival of indigenous communities that, in this day and age, with the spirit of reconciliation that we're feeling across this land, that a government, when

432 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 25, 2017 going down this path, would have given some consideration to that and would have gone and consulted with the people first before making their decision. In fact, in this case, the exact opposite has occurred. The announcement was made, and then a group was sent out with a preordained decision, so I anticipate that there will be, Madam Minister, a constitutional challenge to this, and that will be to the detriment of the people of Manitoba who are going to have to pay for that.

Now, when Si gnature Mediation went out and did their consultation, the question was put to them, given that they were the ones that orchestrated the demise of the Hog Marketing Board was something similar likely to occur in the case of the commercial fishery. And that was indeed the case, that if we go ahead with this and if we look at the whole concept of quota, individual community quotas –this is the greatest concern to me. When I went to the meeting in Fisher River, there was a lot of talk about a quota exchange. A nd I put the question to Signature Mediation: What does that mean, a quota exchange?

For decades, the practice has been to try and retain quota in these individual Aboriginal communities around the lake, and any attempt to sell or move that quota out of these communities has been opposed by the government. Now we're talking about a quota exchange. Madam Minister, what is that? Is that going to be like a stock exchange where quota is put up to buy and sell with no limitations whatsoever? This is of grave concern to me. You heard Mr. Saunder s; you heard Mr. Whiteway; you heard Mr.

Murdock–all of them referring to how important this industry is to communities, and, if this quota is lost, these communities will suffer. People don't have a wide range of employme nt out in these remote areas. Fishing is fundamental. Jeopardizing this will be to the detriment of the industry. * (19:20) Now, one topic worthy of discussion as well is the fact that Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation owns fish on behalf of fishers r ight to the end point.

That means that they take them; they process them; they package them professionally; they label them; they store them in very expensive freezers ; and sell them out at a uniform r ate over the course of the year. And, at the end of the day, the profits from that end sale are returned to the fishers. There's no scenario with the buyers that are going to be going out into the market and buying these fish from the fishers where that end profit is going to be returned to them. That's nonsensical.

The buyers themselves, obviously, when they sell the fish–they're in the business – will be pocketing that profit themselves as is the case in a free market system. But that doesn't help the fishers. That won't benefit them when they just get the initial price at the dock, and who knows what it's going to be. We've heard speakers before me make reference to the bad old days where nobody knew what kind of price they were going to get. So, you know, I think we have to bear that in mind, the lessons of history.

If we don't learn from the lessons of history, we are doomed to repeat them, and that's going to be the case with this. My final point, I would say, is–has to do directly with the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. They will be dependent on a provincial licence to continue to operate going forward. And all the various disparaging words I've heard about the corporation, I sincerely hope it's not the plan of this provincial government to, next year, maybe the year after, consider suspending the licence of the FFMC. That would be the icing on the cake.

That would be the death knell of the commercial fishery as it's put together today to serve the Aboriginal people, the indigenous people of our province. So that's the conclusion of my remarks, M adam Speaker, and–or Madam Chair, and just to conclude, my congratulations to the minister on achieving her position. I know it's a very diverse department and a lot of challenging issues. So my sincere best wishes to you going forward. Madam Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. Do members of the committee have questions for the presenter? Mr. Selinger: Thank you, Mr. Nevakshonoff.

Could you talk a bit about what you understand this quota exchange is all about? Mr. Nevakshonoff: Well, Mr. Selinger, that's a very good question, and that is specifically why I put that question to Signature Mediation in Fisher River when they give our presentation to us. The individual quota entitlement system that is constituted around Lake Winnipeg is managed by the

October 25, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 433 provincial government, the objective, at least in our time in office, the objective being to retain that quota within these communities. A quota exchange, which smacks to me of a stock exchange, means that, potentially, the very opposi te will occur, that there will be no restrictions on the sale of quota, that in a very short period of time it will be accumulated by large buyers. You'll end up with much like what occurred in the hog industry: a few –a low number of large producers and a lot of people that currently fish to–will be unemployed as a result. Mr.

Gerrard: It's good to see you back here in the Legislature, Tom, and welcome. You had a fair bit of experience with the fishery and the Freshwater during your time in office, and maybe you can give us some ideas about what – there's been a struggle for many years to market many of the rough fish, or what people call –not the pickerel and whitefish and the sauger, and that has never really happened to any great success. Is there an alternative solution to what's happening now? Mr.

Nevakshonoff: Just, first of all, I'd –I've left the Legislature and I hadn't really intended on coming back, but given that I'd served four terms in 17 years, representing a large number of indigenous people, had both these great lakes, Manitoba and Winnipeg, in my constituency and ultimately was the minister of the department, thanks to the faith Mr. Selinger showed in me; I appreciated that very much. You know, the marketing of the rough fish is a challenge, to say the least, but that, I think, can be managed within the Department of Sustainable Development through regulation.

The Province has domain over the resource base. If we can look at the quota system itself, which has a group of species in it, potentially, there's some hope there. I think it's very important to note that under the Freshwater Fish Marketing Act, the corporation is obliged to buy all of these –all of the fish that's presented to it for sale. That won't be the case going forward, and if we think we have a problem with dealing with the rough fish now, if you get buyers out there that are just high -grading, just taking the fish that they want, then the problem will be a lot worse than it is today. Mr.

Altemeyer: Very briefly, as I don't imagine many of your five minutes are left, may I first say, Tom, it's great to have you back here. The building is better for you having made your presentation, and it was always a treat to work with you here. You are tireless in your advocacy for people and causes that deserved advocacy. So thank you for your service. You did great. You raised a really interesting point, and I wanted to give you a chance to expand on it.

My first understanding of the potential threat of shutting down Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation through the licensing process actually came from this government's previous minister, a letter that she sent around to fishers advising them not to sign multi - year contracts with FFMC because their licence would only–would be coming up for renewal. It seemed like a veiled threat to me. You've been around longer than I have in political circles. What did you think of that when you saw that information? Mr.

Nevakshonoff: Well, I think the point to take away from this is that, you know, if the government of the day –and they are in power, if they want to make such a fundamental change to something that is so critical to the survival of indigenous communities, then they should take the proper time to do that decision, that they should follow the law of the land, they should respect the Constitution and should pursue to the full extent of the law in sincerity an attempt to duly consult with Aboriginal people. And, if it takes years to do so, then that's the way it should be done.

Honouring the treaties, honouring the spirit of reconciliation instead of throwing it out there and then trying to cobble together some kind of policy– Madam Chairperson: Mr. Nevakshonoff, the time for questioning has expired. [interjection] Mr. Nevakshonoff, the time for questioning has expired. Thank you very much for your presentation. I will now call upon David Mackay, southeast resource and development council. Mr. Mackay, do you have any written materials for distribution to the committee? Mr. David Mackay (Southeast Resource Development Council Corp.): Boy, do I ever.

Madam Chairperson: Please proceed with your presentation. Mr. Mackay: Thank you, Madam Chair, Madam Minister, members of the Legislative Assembly, committee members, ladies and gentlemen. Good evening. Miigwech. Thank you for having me.

434 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 25, 2017 My name is David Mackay, I represent the Aboriginal fishers of the southeast resource a nd development council corp., otherwise known as the Southeast Tribal Council. Approximately, 250 fishers on the southeast side of Lake Winnipeg, the primary fishing communities of southeast are Poplar River, Berens River, Bloodvein and Hollow Water First Nations, with also some desire for black– Little Black River to also be participating in commercial fisheries. I'd like to start with, I guess, a little bit of a factoid. How many folks here like salmon?

And why do we eat salmon, besides it being a wonderfully tasty fish? A lot of us tend to like salmon because we understand that it's 'chocked' full of omega -3 fatty acids, which is an antioxidant, a well -known anti-inflammatory agent and a health nutraceutical. * (19:30) It's interesting that a Univers ity of Manitoba study, in 2015, has actually proven that the levels of omega-3's in pickerel are two to three times higher than wild or farmed Atlantic salmon. Who knew? And we have it right on our doorstep.

That's an incredible opportunity, and I use the word oppor - tunity, because that's exactly what this is, is an opportunity. We see this as something that we are absolutely supportive of, enthusiastically supportive of. We've consulted with all of the nations, all of the fishers, all of the leaders. Our perception of duty to consult is not that it didn't take place before, but it's going to start taking place now, and that we're going to work it out. There is much better that can be achieved, greater opportunity. I want to give you reference to these two pages, if you'd like to have a quick look at them.

This summer I had the opportunity to be in Falcon Lake, wanted to have some fish that evening for my family, so I walked into the Falcon Beach grocery and I looked at the fish, and look what I found? In that picture on the left you see on the top, that's pickerel, previously frozen Manitoba pickerel. Underneath is Atlantic salmon, fresh, not frozen. Look at the prices on the right as you get a closer photograph. The previously frozen pickerel is $43 a kilogram,

whereas the Atlantic salmon brought all the way from the East coast is $35 a kilogram. What's wrong with that picture? That's –that's telling us that there's something wrong with the distribution channels, perhaps the management systems. Why ar e we paying a heck of a lot more for local Manitoba-caught pickerel when I'm actually in Manitoba, and it's previously frozen? That's absolutely absurd. The next slide. It was not an anomaly.

Falcon Beach can't be accused of gouging their customers because I went to Costco and Costco had the same issue–$19 a kilo for Pacific cod; $15 a kilo for Tilapia; $29 a kilo for Manitoba pickerel. So the issue is that somebody's doing something wrong with the distribution and the cost mechanisms. How much do the fishers keep? They get about five to six dollars a kilo for pickerel–headless. So look at the disparity between five and 43 and five and 29. Somebody's making money; it's not the fishers. We can do better. There are eight nations of southeast, but as I said, four of them fish commercially.

Right now they have extremely inadequate facilities and infra- structure for their fish sheds; however, even though we're faced with a lot of challenges logistically as well as in the infrastructure, we actually believe that there's an X -factor here, and that is that the federal government can actually come to the table and assist our fishers with some substantial programs that are available to all First Nations, and we intend to take advantage of those. There are several existing components in revenue opportunities for funding, financing.

They exist through the Department of Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada, otherwise known as INAC. They exist through DFO –Fisheries and Oceans, and they exist throu gh a group called SPI. I love this name, but it stands for Strategic Partnerships Initiative. We feel that we don't want F reshwater to go away. They don't have to go away. That's a bit of a bogeyman scenario. They're not going anywhere. They're still going to be there. Wonderful; let's keep them there; we need options. Our fishers want options. They want better prices, higher standards of living, better equipment, greater returns.

Right now they may not be getting it, but we don't know what we don't know. We need to get out there, and a lot of that is incumbent on us to do that. We can't expect government to come to the rescue in every situation. We have some work to do.

October 25, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 435 I myself will be talking to no less than 10 different buyer groups over the coming months, some in Chicago, some in New York, some in other parts of Minnesota. We have incredible opportunities to sell our fish and we also have the opportunity to sell to F reshwater. B ut, if you want to talk about unfair trade practices, let's talk about a three- to five- year contract that Freshwater has put out there that's locking fishers in. How is that a fair business tactic?

We think that the market should be open in all senses of the word, which means that if you're a buyer, you shouldn't be disadvantaged by an incumbent in the market who is using its position right now in monopoly to lock down the market for three to five years. If you want to get in and play the game, duke it out one -on-one, one year at a time. That's fair. Otherwise, you're stacking the deck. That's an unfair market practice. In fact, it may even be legally challengeable. But, nonetheless, the options will be there. We intend to work with the federal government.

I myself visited a beaut iful community called Membertou in Sy dney, Nova Scotia. That com - munity is a wonderful example of what you can do with the appropriate investments from the federal government. There's a program called AICFI in Atlantic Canada, a program called PICFI in Pacific Canada, a program soon to be known as NICFI in northern shores of Northwest Territories. That is the wonderful opportunity I'm talking about. The federal government in the Atlantic invested over $60 million over seven years in the Atlantic Integrated Commercial Fisheries Initiative, ICF I. In the Pacific side, it's PICFI.

Why not a MICFI, the Manitoba integrated commercial fisheries initiative? It's possibly going to happen. We have talked to the federal government, to DFO; we have talked to SPI, we have talked to INAC, they all attended a strategic planning session that we had in August. They are, literally, yesterday, the Director General's Investment Committee, the DGIC, all of the director generals in Ottawa, the federal government, met to discuss the Manitoba opportunity. I don't think anyone in this room knows that. We need to understand what's happening in the federal government level. We are not helpless.

We don't have to worry about Manitoba bailing us out. The federal government opportunity for Aboriginal fishers is substantial, and instead of just looking at the standard programs, they're prepared to look at a wide -scale program to invest in infrastructure for First Nations across Manitoba. That means substantial opportunity for everybody, not just SERDC, but for every First N ation. And the infrastructure that would be built will be substantial.

So we feel that we need to embrace this, go after it, and actually put that infrastructure and funding in place over a period of, say, three to five years, and actually build the infra structure and go after our buyers. Our buyers are eager to purchase our fish. Not all of th em will work out, we know that. We're prepared to go from one to another to another 'til we find out and test the market to know what's going to be workable. But we don't want to go back to just Freshwater.

If I were to look at Freshwater's annual report, and if you've ever run a company before and you go, I would suggest that the Manitoba government is not killing Freshwater. Freshwater– Madam Chairperson: Mr. Mackay. Mr. Mackay, I just want to suggest that you refer to page numbers of reports you've handed out, but you may not hold up any signs. Thank you. Go ahead. Mr. Mackay: In this annual report there's a significant amount of data that one would infer that Freshwater itself has its challenges. These are wonderful people that work at Freshwater, but they have an incredibly difficult job.

With 30 per cent staff turnover, other issues with profitability, they have gross profit challenges year over years, retained earnings challenges, debt challenges, there's a lot, labour is a huge issue. There's a lot of things that go on in running that company. It's very difficult to run. There's a lot of challenges right now that are not yielding the type of revenue opportunit ies that are possible and we can do better by going to the open market but still having Freshwater kept, made available to all of us. It's not going away. We don't want it to go away.

If you looked at the Auditor General's report recently, substantial iss ues with Freshwater's operations, and recently they were– Madam Chairperson: Mr. Mackay. Your time for presentation has expired. We are going to move on to questioning at this point. Are there questions from the committee members?

436 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 25, 2017 Mr. Derek Johnson (Interlake): Can you explain that annual report a little bit more, please. * (19:40) Mr. Mackay: This is the 2016 annual report. I made notations on it as I went through it. There was a $2.4-million writedown as a result of bad equipment purchase for some mincing equipment for whitefish. That equipment never got used. It was completely–a big loss. They had to sell the equipment and rebuy new equipment. There's been 30 per cent staff turnover in the two years.

Average return to the fishers is about 45 per cent; it used to be higher in the 50 to 55 even 60 per cent range, that's declining. Gross profits as a percentage of sales at 17.6 per cent, that's down from 21.5 per cent in 2015. So the trend is going the w rong way. Their labour and the cost of operations is going the wrong way, it's skyrocketing. Much of their revenues actually came from the US dollar exchange. That's more or less what rescued them last year. As I contend, Freshwater, it's not the Manitoba government that's hurting Freshwater, Freshwater is hurting Freshwater.

If left to its own devices, it will potentially trip on itself to the point where it will not be available, and I and the members of our communities do not want that. We are not here to bury Freshwater. We want them there as an option, but, if something isn't done, they're in trouble. They're going to go away on their own. Mr. Gerrard: I think I'd like one more– Madam Chairperson: Mr. Johnson, on a follow-up. Mr. Johnson: Was there a bonus for the board like there was in previous years up to a quarter of a million dollars for the board even though the fishermen didn't receive much for a final payment? Mr.

Mackay: The final payments I've g ot here. I believe they were at 1.5 million –or sorry–3 million, 2015-2016 they were $3 million. That was the final payment. If you work it out to how many fishers there are that's roughly $1,700 a fisher, but the fishers that receive it are for the quota fish. You know, the ones that are higher priced. I don't know anything about the board. I do know that marketing and marketing costs are substantial. I have no idea what were the bonuses for the board, however. Mr. Gerrard: You've got in this material some ideas about branding and about eco- certification.

I just give you an opportunity to talk about that. Mr. Mackay: Fresh, cold water, live caught, indigenously harvested, family caught, fair trade, man, those are marketing incredible labels that we can take to the worldwide market and we will be embraced. However, as you pointed out, Dr. Gerrard, eco-certification will be an important step. It's not going to be easy. It's challenging. It's going to be time consuming and it's done on a lake-by-lake basis.

Lake Winnipeg itself, it's going to be a tough eco-certification because it's so big with so many communities, some indigenous, some non- indigenous, harmonizing that eco- certification will be tough. But it doesn't mean we can't do it. If we can cross that hurdle with the P rovince's assistance, we'll be open for business for the world. And when we can sell our two to three times higher omega-3s than salmon versus the rest of the world. We've got markets in Asia. We've got markets in the US and in Europe. We can do much better, no question we can.

And every fisher in this room, when they realize that the prices can go up, they won't care who they're selling to any more. They're going to go to that best–that highest bidder, that highest buyer – then they may not survive. Madam Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation. Seeing no further questions, you may return to the audience. I will now call upon Donald Salkeld, private citizen. Donald Salkeld? Mr. Salkeld, do you have any written materials for distribution to the committee? Mr. Donald Salkeld (Private Citizen): I do. Madam Chairperson: Please proceed with your presentation. Mr.

Salkeld: First of all, thank you for allowing me to speak tonight. I hope I'm not the last one up here because I don't want to be accused of saving the best for last. And I'm one of those phantom buyers that's building a processing plant in Manitoba, in particular Gimli, and also a subsidiary facility in Teulon, Manitoba. I got into the fish business a few years ago, and I think those that know me know what I've done. I was appointed president and CEO of the F reshwater marketing corporation in December of 2014.

I spent the year of 2015 visiting the communities, some of the communities that have presented here this evening, and I soon learned the hardships that they were facing. And I listened to them, and I took a

October 25, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 437 great passion to trying to improve the fishing lives of these communities. Some of the things that have been said here tonight are, perhaps, maybe misunderstood or maybe not clear enough. One of the things I want to clear up is that Freshwater uses third -party transportation to haul all of their fish to their facility at Plessis Road. They don't own any transportation; they rely on third party. Private industr y will rely on third party the same way. That's not going to change.

There's a fear out there of change, and the fear that has been driven out there is driven by people at Freshwater Fish going to these communities and telling these people that life is going to be hard on them after the Bill 23 passes. Bill 23 is not to dismantle the fishing industry in Manitoba; it's to save it. It's to save this industry. All you've got to do is go to these communities and see the age of these fishers. Somebody told me t he average age is 63; it's probably closer to 73. And, when I started going around to these communities, I was astonished at the age of the fishers.

Sustainability of the fish industry in Manitoba is not the fish in the lake; it's the fishers. If this tra in stayed on the same track for another 10 years, the fishing industry in Manitoba would be all but gone. So Bill 23 is going to give opportunity to these communities. It's going to give opportunity to private industry to come in and make improvements. Private industry doesn't rely on government subsidies. They don't rely on the Bank of Canada bank account. They have to answer to their bankers, and they have to answer to their shareholders.

And in order to do that, they have to sustain their ability to be in business. To sustain their ability to be in business, they need a supply of fish. In order to get a supply of fish, they have to take care of the fishers – not going to be mandated to–by the fishers to sell their fish to a processor; they're going to go out and earn the respect of the fishers, and they're going to earn that respect by treating these fishers with respect and dignity and pay them the market price. What really upsets me is the letter that I just passed out. When you read that letter, it's a tantamount to a threat.

That's exactly what it is. That's the highest executive at F reshwater and the board of directors threatening these fishers to sign a contract or they're going to lose their final payment – to sign a contract or they won't have a home to sell their fish–sign a contract or come to the door and get paid 25 per cent on the market price.

Who in the heck do they think they are, the Government of Canada, going to citizens and threatening them and telling them they're going to get paid 25 per cent less if they don't do business with them for 100 per cent of what they catch? * (19:50) This is what the problem is out there, is the fear of change. And I've heard the representations here tonight. I've heard it from Matheson Island; I've heard it from the other indigenous communities. And it's just a fear. It's a fear, a nd that fear has been instilled into these people by Freshwater F ish.

And they will learn, these communities, that when private industry starts to develop and we find markets and better markets for their product and we start using the by-products, the return will be much better to the fishers. In 1969, when Freshwater was invented, it was a good idea. In fact, when I started working there, I kind of thought it was a good idea, 'ti l I saw how hungry that monster was. That monster is –has an appetite of $120,000 a day, seven days a week, 365 days of the year.

It created that appetite because it got complacent, and when it got complacent, it didn't have accountability, and when you don 't have accountability, it just goes out of control, much like a lot of Crown corporations in the country. It's not the first one that this has happened to. Bill 23 is going to save the fishing industry. That's what it's going to do, and that monster over there, if it keeps the appetite it is, it's not going to be around. It's that simple. It just can't sustain–and I was there and I saw what was going on inside that monster.

I saw that and I witnessed it and I tried to fix it, but they don't want to change it and the same people are there. In fact, I fired some people; they brought them back. Same people are there, so –I saw them on the standing committee in Ottawa, standing there saying they're going to make changes. They've– those people that were standing there at the standing committee been there 15 years. They were through the 2005 audit, they were there in the 2010 audit, and they're there at this final audit, and they have the gall to stand up in front of the standing committee in Ottawa and say they're going to make changes.

Why didn't they make changes before today? But what I'm going to do is I'm going to be one of those five processes and maybe one of 10, and I'm committed to build a processing plant in Manitoba here. I'm committed to treat these fishers with respect and I'm committed to finding a decent market and

438 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 25, 2017 being partners with these fishers. That's what I –that's my goal. I don't speak on behalf of the other buyers, but that's my goal. Thank you very much. Madam Chairperson: Thank you for your presen - tation. Do members of the committee have questions for the presenter? Mr. Lagimodiere. No? Oh, Mr. Johnson. Mr. Johnson: We heard here tonight that FFMC is in disarray, and it was also stated in the Auditor General report.

Can you maybe explain to us here of some of the changes you tried to make at FFMC, like some of the bonuses and final payments and stuff after you got in? So maybe, just a brief explanation of before and the changes that you tried to make to make it better for fishers. Mr. Salkeld: When I arrived at Freshwater Fish, I was quite shocked at what was going on inside that corporation, and the senior management, when I was introduced to them –I don't even want to repeat here what their attitude and culture was towards the fishers, but it was pretty bad.

I tried to bring a sense of culture to that corporation that wanted to be in partnership with the fishers and some of the changes that I made there were improving the processing on the floor, the storage and the cold storage.

It's–I guess if I had a few hours I could tell you some pretty good stories, but what was going on behind my back at Freshwater Fish was the resistance to change, and I know the Auditor General or what–they say the exchange rate helped them, and it did, but the changes that I put in place that took effect in the year that I left and the year after, was going to return about $8 million to the bottom line. That's what they're surviving on today.

But I understand that they've made the changes to go back, and this business of buying equipment – somebody just said $2.4 million is what they're alleging, and they threw it out; it's –those are false stories. They're false, and it's a shame that they're doing that, but they're doing it at the cost of the fishers. So those c hanges are impossible to make, and the changes that I tried to make are all gone back to the way they were before I was there. Mr. Altemeyer: Thank you for your –bringing your perspective. It adds to the diversity of what we've heard here tonight.

I want to go back to the part of your presentation where you said that the –and I don't want to be putting words in your mouth, but what I heard you say, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the reason for the concerns that we've heard tonight is primarily just fe ar of–that has been instilled in people, in indigenous people, in communities by FFMC. Now, I'm not indigenous and I'm not a fisher, but what I have heard tonight from many presenters is a little bit broader than that.

I have heard that conversations haven't even happened with fishers in communities, never mind a proper duty -to-consult approach, you know, a respectful approach, of government - to-community, government-to-government dialogue. So I'm wondering if you have heard those stories as well tonight as I believe that I have. Mr. Salkeld: Well, I don't want to speak on behalf of the government of Manitoba and what they did or did not do. I can speak of behalf of what I've done and I know some of my colleagues that–who also are looking at investing in pr ocessing plants.

I have travelled to quite a few communities in Manitoba since the announcement. And I've made it clear of my intentions of what I'm going to do. The one thing that's really holding up private industry and meeting with the communities is th e royal assent of Bill 23. Investors from outside of Manitoba are reluctant to make a move until royal assent of Bill 23. But I can assure you that when Bill 23 receives royal assent, things will start happening pretty quickly. But on my behalf, I've travelled extensively to communities.

I haven't been to Matheson Island, haven't been to Norway House –the two representatives that were here tonight –but I've been to a lot of other communities. And I've shared my thoughts with them and where I want to go in the future, and I've listened to their hardships, so I think I've done as much as I can in the time that's been provided since the announcement. Madam Chairperson: Our time for questioning has expired. Thank you very much for your presentation. It has come to my attention that we have one out-of-town presenter for Bill 27. So we shall hear from Mr. Kevin Rebeck, Manitoba Federation of Labour.

Is there will of the committee to finish off Bill 23 presenters and then move on to Bill 27? [Agreed] Thank you. I will now call on Darren Gibson, private citizen. Okay, Mr. Gibson?

October 25, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 439 Okay, Mr. Gibson's name will be dropped to the bottom of the list. I will now call on Paul McKie, Unifor. Mr. McKie? Mr. Paul McKie (Unifor): It's McKie. Sure, you got Nevakshonoff right. * (20:00) Madam Chairperson: Do you have any written materials for the–distribution to the committee? Mr. McKie: I do not. Madam Chairperson: Okay, please proceed with your presentation. Mr. McKie: Thank you.

I present to this committee this evening on behalf of Unifor, which opposes the amendments in this bill which eliminates the single desk of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation and creates uncertainty in this natural resource industry. Unifor feels the changes being made are for ideological reasons and not sound business reasons that support our fishers and the economy of Manitoba. Indeed, we fear that by eliminating the single desk of freshwater fish, this bill will send money out of province –or, more likely, out of the country.

We also predict job loss for the workers at Freshwater Fish as well as threatening the livelihood of our fishers, the vast majority of whom are indigenous Manitobans. Unifor is Canada's largest private sector union, with 315,000 members nationwide and 12,000 strong in Manitoba. We also have members in public sector areas, such as Freshwater Fish. We have 250 fishery workers at Freshwater Fish represented by Unifor Local 561. These are good jobs. Our scale –skilled trades workers make in excess of $38 an hour. Workers on the line earn anywhere from $13 to $20 an hour.

Workers spend these wages –well in excess of our provincial minimum wage of $11.15– in the community, at Manitoba businesses. This economic activity is threatened by Bill 23. Freshwater Fish purchases and processes fish from 1,200-plus Manitoba fishers, many of them in remote northern locations. Hundreds more fishers from Saskatchewan and the Northwest Territories also send their fish through Freshwater Fish. Fish such as pickerel, sauger, perch, mullet, northern pike and carp go through this facility. Freshwater Fish generates tens of millions of dollars of economic activity annually.

I'm told that fishers in northwest Ontario will soon be sending their catch through the Winnipeg facility. Let's address the elephant in the room. And several previous speakers have spoken about this. Freshwater Fish has been badly mismanaged by successive federal Liberal and Conservative govern - ments, including horrible exampl es of cronyism and patronage appointments. This doesn't mean Freshwater Fish itself is a bad idea that should be 'disenced' with. As citizens, when we are dissatisfied or even angry with our government, we don't throw our entire system of parliamentary democracy out the window.

Instead, we toss out the individuals or the party that ran the government. So, too, with Freshwater. There–with reforms and better oversight by the federal government, we can make this a better organization for Manitoba fishers. Freshwater Fish still works to help those fishers. The federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans has been consulting with fishers –we've heard that earlier this evening –about the relationship with Freshwater Fish.

Many of our fishers have made it absolutely clear they wish to retain the corporation, but changes must be made within it, including greater representation by indigenous people. Let's not forget why Freshwater Fish was started in 1969. It was to serve fishers. It was to address problems that f ishers had. The single -desk approach in Canadian agriculture is not uncommon, and it stays around because it works. Those who are against the single desk are invariably connected in some way to multinational agribusinesses, because it is they who gain by opening up the market, not the fishers.

We don't deny there's a vocal minority of producers who want an end to the single desk. Unifor respects that view, but sees there is a greater advantage to the majority of fishers by maintaining Freshwater Fish as a single desk. Our First Nations support Freshwater Fish. Some have stated as much as 95 per cent of fishers want to remain with the status quote. I note that the Manitoba government decision to pull out of Freshwater Fish was not done in any consultation with the federal government. It was simply announced on the election campaign of 2016.

There are also no fancy websites where Manitoba fishers could give their view on the future of the fishery and vote via a web poll. So why this bill? The

440 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 25, 2017 reason can be found in the language this government uses in describing it –the bill. When the honourable minister introduced Bill 23, she used the words marketing freedom for Manitoba fishers is here. I suppose those words could mean the freedom to process your fish and sell where you like–if you have the money and are big enough and if there are alternative processors.

But it also could mean the freedom to be taken advantage of by multinational agribusiness, the freedom to figure out how to get your fish from the North t o the processor, the freedom to be a small player and yet try to negotiate with international companies. To date, we have seen no sign of any real processors on the horizon–certainly, none of any size. This has been true in Saskatchewan, which pulled out in 2012, and as we've heard earlier, still processed the majority of their fish through FFMC.

One of the huge advantages that Freshwater Fish gives is the 49 delivery points across the province where fish are purchased and graded there. This is a tremendous advantage to our northern fishers. Invariably, when governments privatize, it doesn't turn out quite like planned. Mr. Rebeck has already made mention of the Canadian Wheat Board and what's happened with that. Many studies exist on the privatization of government-run liquor stores, for example, in other jurisdictions. What begins as a free market quickly turns into oligopoly, often owned by out-of-province or foreign investors or companies.

In Alberta, privatization occurred in liquor stores more than two decades ago. More than one third of those stores now are controlled by large chains. One smaller operator recently said the big fish are eating up the little fish. So, whether it's a fish-eat-fish world or a dog- eat-dog world, Unifor is concerned tha t whatever slim advantages there may be to a minority of producers, the advantages of keeping Freshwater Fish as a single -desk marketer for the majority of Manitoba fishers and workers is greater. Bill 23 is not a plan for the future.

We respectfully ask that the government withdraw this legislation and support our fishers and our fisheries' workers. We also ask that you consult with all the stakeholders, not simply the ones that have the government's ear. It's time for a plan for all of our fishers and our fisheries. Thank you. Madam Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. Do members of the committee have questions for the presenter? Mr. Altemeyer: Yes, thank you very much, Mr.

McKie, for taking the time to bring your view, and I want to commend you for the very good analysis that you've provided all members of the committee, and commend you further because you didn't just talk about the specific issue before the committee tonight; you put it in a really important context of what has happened in the past when public assets, the public goods, such as a Crown corporation, are privatized, and some of the negative impacts, the history, that we could all learn from. As a representative of Unifor, I'd be particularly interested, as I alluded earlier in my questions to Mr.

Rebeck, if you could share with the committee any information or feedback you may have from the workers at the plant in Transcona here in our community. How are they holding up? Has anyone from the government contacted them with any information about what this legislation is actually going to mean for their families, their paycheques and their jobs in the community? Mr. McKie: There has been no consultation with the workers, with the local. In fact, our national rep who has–is assigned to that unit has had to keep the workers up to date on what is going on. There is a great deal of uncertainty in the plant.

These jobs range from year -round, full -time jobs to full -time, seasonal jobs of five to six months, and then the most vulnerable workers are the part -time, seasonal workers that tend to work on weekends. The more vulnerable workers are obviously concerned that they will have no work at all. We–because there has been no consultation, because there is no overall plan, we don't know what the impact of it is. We've heard as much as –as many as half the workers could be in jeopardy of losing their jobs.

And as I mentioned, these are good- paying jobs, people who live in the community and spend their money in the community. Mr. Gerrard: Yes, maybe you could share with us – I'm presuming that the people who are in leadership positions at the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation are communicating to the people who work there and telling them about what's –what their plans are and what their expectations are. Mr. McKie: I spoke with some of the union leaders at the plant just a few days ago, and they are aware of some things. There are some discussions going on.

October 25, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 441 They're aware that contracts are being –so, in anticipation, this is –it's not a surprise that this bill came forward. The government promised it, as I said, on the election trail. They mentioned it ver y early on in their mandate. So Freshwater Fish ha s been preparing it by going out and selling contracts. * (20:10) The workers inside are aware of some of that, but I could tell you, the majority of the workers on the shop floor, it's just a feeling of uncertainty as to what's going to happen if this bill goes forward. Mr.

Altemeyer: Just to follow up on your previous answer so that the committee has a full under - standing of the potential threat this legislation poses to workers right now, you gave a very nice breakdown of the different schedules of wor kers. If half of the jobs–or, up to half could be eliminated by this move, roughly, you know, how many people are we talking about? How many workers altogether would be potentially laid off, lose their jobs as a result of this government's decision? Mr. McKie: Initial numbers we've heard it could be as many as 100. Mr. Selinger: Thank you, Mr. McKie.

On the issue in the legislation of only ensuring that FFMC has a licence for one year to operate after the bill presumably passes, would you think it would be better to ensure a com petitive environment if a licence was assured for FFMC? Mr. McKie: Absolutely. I keep hearing from those in favour of this bill that FFMC will be allowed to compete freely with any privates that come in. Well, how can you compete f reely when you don't know – how can you make any plans to move forward when you don't know if you're actually going to have a licence to operate?

I think the least this government could do is to just publicly say that the FFMC will be granted a licence into the future so that the organization itself can make plans and that the workers themselves have a little more certainty. Madam Chairperson: The time for questioning has expired. Thank you very much for your presentation. I will now call on Marianne Hladun, Public Service Alliance of Canada. Ms. Hladun, do you have any written materials for distribution to the committee? Ms. Marianne Hladun (Public Service Alliance of Canada): Yes, I do. Madam Chairperson: Please proceed with your presentation. Ms.

Hladun : Thank you, and thank you for the opportunity to present. My full presentation is in the paper but, having listened to the speakers, I'm going off script, which is, you know, everyone's nightmare, but I'm going off script a little bit. So my name is Marianne Hladun and I'm here on behalf of Public Service Alliance of Canada members living and working in Manitoba. We have about 8,000 members in Manitoba and we have a small number that work at Freshwater Fish Marketing Corp. as the engineers that keep the processing plant operating.

So we're extremely concerned about the government's decision to introduce Bill 23 and the decision to withdraw from the participation agreement under Freshwater Fish Marketing Act. We believe that Freshwater should remain a monopoly single desk for the economic security and stability of Manitoba fishers. I won't go through all of the background as to what they –you know, the production, how long they've been there; you've heard that. The previous speaker talked about market freedom, and this has–this is an ideological approach that talks about small operators are going to be cut out and wages will be depressed.

So let's look at the Wheat Board, and this is where I'm going off script, because as I'm listening to this, I'm seeing a consistent approach to the Wheat Board and I'm listening to my dad. My grandfather fought for the Canadian Wheat Board. When he started farming, when he immigrated to this country, he operated a grain far m with no Canadian Wheat Board. He fought for it. He worked for it. My dad benefited from it. My brother benefited from it.

When the Wheat Board was dismantled, all of the promises that were made that there would be no difference, the only ones that have profited from that are the multinational corporations. The small family farms are gone. They cannot survive on a farming income. I grew up on six quarters of land. That supported our entire family. That's not possible anymore. So I don't–I didn't grow up in a fishing community, but

442 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 25, 2017 the comparisons–this is why I'm, like, compelled to tell you this as I'm sitting in the back listening to this. When I listen to the fishers from the North, from the indigenous community saying this has to stay, we need this, we don't have the capacity for marketing. Who's going to profit from this? And this is an extreme concern to us. Back to the Wheat Board. Some of you may have seen me out there talking about the Port of Churchill. We represent the workers at the Port of Churchill. They relied on the Wheat Board for the community.

Generations of residents in Churchill worked at that port. When the Wheat Board was dismantled by the Conservative government, when the subsidies stopped and the multinational American corporation that we all know of right now decided that they weren't going to support it anymore, who's suffering? They're sitting there, yes, their profit margin is down. The community is suffering. I am seeing the same thing happening to our indigenous communiti es. I am listening to the fishers that were here saying this is what it means for generations of fishers, past and future.

And this is what concerns me, when this ideology that we cannot have a monopoly, that it's not good for anyone. Well, that's not tr ue. That's absolutely not true. It's –a monopoly works the small fishers. It works for small farmers. It works in all the other agriculture sectors. It works. But the large corporations don't get the profit margins that they want–not what they need, what they want. And so– see, this is what happens when you go off-script. You know, we don't know what's going to happen, so we're looking ahead and saying, okay, well, everything will be fine. We'll pass the bill.

And then we'll start talking to fishers? And then we'll start consultation with First Nations? That's–I'm sorry, but that's a red flag. How can you introduce legislation, how can you introduce something as fundamental as eliminating a single-desk marketing system and say, well, we'll talk to you after and figure out how to make it work? If that's not the cart before the horse, I'm not sure what is. We don't know what's going to happen with NAFTA. We don't know what's going to happen with the Trump administration. We don't know what's going to happen w ith Brexit.

We don't know what's going to happen with trade agreements across the world. And so, for us to say now, oh, well, all of those markets are going to be open and it's going to be a good thing for our fishers –well, forgive me, but I don't quite believe that. At the end of the day, yes, FMSC –FMMC will remain open. They said that about the Wheat Board. Tell that to a farmer that can't get their grain or has to pay extra to ship their grain to Vancouver because Churchill is being held hostage by an American corporation–which the federal and provincial government are doing nothing about, by the way.

So forgive me if I have no trust at this point. If there's problems within the corporation, then somebody better darn well deal with it. If there's patronage, if there's issues that are being identified in the Auditor General's report, then someone needs to deal with that. You do not throw out a corporation, you do not privatize, you do not get rid of this whole thing because someone is not running it properly. There's got to be accountability. As politicians –as you are politicians, as I'm a politician in my union–if we're not accountable, well, we don't get re -elected.

So someone needs to deal with the fact within the corporation that if that is happening, someone needs to do something, because they're not accountable to fishers. They forgot who they're representing, and it's time that somebody reminded them of that. So, at the end of the day –I could go on and you can read the rest of my presentation for the other official words I'm supposed to say, but you know, I'm here tonight primarily, of course, representing PSAC members that work there. That's my job. I represent those members. That's their employment. They contribute to this community. This affects their families.

And they provide a valuable service to the corporation in the processing plant. * (20:20) I am so concerned when I hear the other presenters tonight. That –while I was sure when I walked in here that it was not a good idea, I am now absolutely committed that it is not a good idea. When I hear that indigenous communities have n

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	41-2-la12
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	41st 2nd hansardpdf la12.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6fb6876c54de2c1ef163534b7aac5f938212a37a

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