Volume 3 PROVINCE OF N~WFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY. MAY 16. 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 72 •·

Hay 16, 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 1651 (Afternoon) MOTIONS IIB.. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Justice. PK - 1 HON. T. A. HICK'IAN (HINISTER OF JUSTICE): Hr. Sl)eaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills; A bill, 'An Act Respecting The Solmonization of MarriaP,e ... A bill, ·

An Act To Amend The Summarizes Jurisdiction Act.•· A bill, ''An Act To Amend Certain Statutes. " A hill, ··An Further To Amend The Registration of Deeds Act •. , A bill, 'An Act To Amend The Election Act." A bill, 'An Act Further To Amend The Mechanics Lien Act,' A hill, ''J.n Act Further To Amend The Companies Act.'' A bill, "

An Act Respecting The Licencing Of Trust Companies and •,can Companies, · And or behalf of the Hon. Minister of Health - A bill, ·

An Act Further To Amend The Department of Health Act.' A bill, ' An Further To Amend The Newfoundland J!edical Care Insurance Act. 1-fR. SPEAKER: The Hon. ~inister of Industrial Development. HON. C. W. DOODY (MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVRLOPHENT): ~'r . Speaker, I pive notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a hill, ''An Act To Ratify, Confirm and Adopt An Agreement Betweet1 Government And Canada Bay LtDnber Company Limited,' UR. SPF.AKER: The Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, HON. E. MAYJ:ARD: (MINISTER OF FORESTRY AND AGRICULTUP.E): ''r.

Sneaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, ''An Act To Amend The Farm Development Loan Act.' ' A bill, '

An Act Further To Amend The Crown Lands Act.' 'MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Education. HON. G. R. OTTENHEIMER (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): ~r. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Education Teachers Pension Act.,. 6289

May 16, 1~74 Tape lESl (Afternoon) PK - 2 'MR. SPEAKER; The Hon. Minister of 1-"unicinal Affairs and Housing. HON. H. R. V. r:ARLE ( 11.NISTF.R OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSL'lG): "'r. Speaker , I j!:ive notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bi] 1, ''An Act Further To Amend The St. John's Honsing Corpe-ration Act.' MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. HON. H. COLLINS (MINISTER OF F! Sl{EIUF.S) : Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a hill. "An Act To Amend The Fisheries Loan Act.' NR. SPEAKER: The llon.

Min:fster of 1-"ar,power and Industrial P.elations. HON. J. R. ROUSSEAU (}UNISTFR OF MANPOWFP. AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS): Finallv the run is on. I j!:ive notice, Mr. ~peaker, that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill,"An Act Further To' Amend The Workmens Compensation Act.' A bill, '·An Act Further To Amend The Hours Of Work Act., . ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The honourahle Member for Bell Island . '1R. S. A. NF.ARY: Mr. Sneaker, I would like to draw to Your Honour's attention that only half of the ministers are in their seats al'ain today, Sir.

There is not enough there to pull up a punt. }ffi.. SPEAKE~: Order, nlease~ MR. NEARY: Who are we i,oing to ask auestions to. !"R. SPF.AKER: Order, Please! J'll.. NEARY: We have numerous questions, Sir, to put to the ministers and they are not in their seats. VR. SPEAKER : Order, olease! '<R. NEARY: I t-•ould like to start out by - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W. W. MARSHALL 0fINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): On a point of order, Mr. S!'eaker. I would like also to draw to Your Honour's attention the fact that up to this year or UP to the change of government we were not allowed to ask a question to anybody. 6290

May 16, 1974 Tape 1651 (Afternoon) MR. NEARY: Oh, sit down Mr. Nastiness. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! }'R. NEARY: I would like to ask the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, Sir, if he would like to give the Rouse a progress report on the Reid Land Controversy. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. PK - 3 MR. E. IA.AYNARD: All I can say at this time, Mr. Speaker is that negotiations are ongoing and I will make a renort to the Rouse as soon as I have something specific to announce. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the minister indicate ho~· many meetings have been held with Mr. Reid?

Have they met this week? Are they still meeting? Have they agreed on a price? If so, when does the minister exnect the whole matter to be completed? t·IR. E. ~•A YNARD : Yes. we have met with '-fr. Reid on I think i_t is three occasions in the past couple of weeks. We will be meeting again,and anart from that there is nothing further I can say on it, 'Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: A complete blackout. I wonder if the Minister of Mines and Energy could inform the House if he is still studying this matter of the increase in oil prices? Has he got it studied to death by now? Just what is the minister doing about it?

Are 't,Je following Nova Scotia's examole? ~IR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Mines and Fnergy. HON. L.D. BARRY (MINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY): Mr. Speaker, I am hapoy that the honourable Member for Bell Island asked that question today because since his last series of nonsensical ouestions relating to this matter, we have received some information, some further information from the Liberal FedeYal Government in Ottawa. MR. DOODY: That lame - duck government. 'MR.

BARRY: - indic~ting the method in which they have calculated the three point seven cent increase which they are allowing the oil companies to impose on our people here in Newfoundland and in other provinces in 6291

l{ay Hi, 1974 Tape 1651 (Afternoon) PK - 4 Eastern Canada. Much to our amazement, bewilderment, astonishment and dishelief,we find that included in this three noint seven cent increase which the Liberal Government in Ottawa have permitted the oil companies to impose,we find included in this a figure to cover not just the amount which crude oil has increased because of the rise in orices by the Arabs and Venezuela and so on.

We find not ,just an amount for that in there, we find that the federal government have also permitted the oil comoanies, the multi-national oil cornpanies,to increase prices to cover increases i.n their operatinii: costs. AN HON. Mill-!BEF : What? MR. BAPRY: To cover increases in their onerating cost, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. !4EMBER:~ Inaudible. MR. BARRY: When they are doubling and trtplinr. their profits over the last year. t!ow this is a Liberal C,overnment in f'lttawa that is suppose to be concerned with the cost of living. AN HON. MEMBER: Shame! Shame! Shame on them: MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, His just beyond belief but fortunately this state of affairs will only cnntinue for another two months and we will get some reason and sanity back into that House on the Hill in Ottawa. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! 'MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, a suoolementary question to the minister: Is the minister aware that the matter of rep.ulating oil and gas prices falls within the provincial jurisdiction?

I would like to ask the minister if it is the intention of his administration to place this matter of regulating prices of gasoline and heating fuel under the Board of CollllTlissioners of Public Utilities as they have done over in Nova Scotia,and forced the oil companies to roll back their prices? HR. 'BARRY: i1r. Speaker, again I am very grateful to the honourable '!ember for Bell Island for giving me an opportunity to reply to this tyoe of question. With respect to the effectiveness, Mr. Speaker, of 6292

!-lay Hi, 1974 Tape 1651 (Afternoon) PK - 5 regulating prices, I think ~hen I say that there is no magic formula involved in setting up a regulatory body there is no magic involved in this immediately bringing down prices, I think that is shown by the effectiveness of ~lrs. Plumptre and her posse who have been roaming around Canada at the behest of the Liberal Government fn Ottawa over the last few months. AN HON. MfilIBER: Liberal talk. l.ffi.. BARRY: Did the creation of this bureaucracy, Mr. Speaker, have any effect on the rising cost of living in Newfoundland or any other Province in Canada? AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, to the first point mentioned by the honourable . Member for Bell Island, the fact that the regulation of petroleum prices is within provincial jurisdiction: Then I suggest that he go ur, and talk to his Liberal colleagues in Ottawa and ask why they had a bill before the House,before it was finally desolved. before the fuddy-duddle between the honourable member's leader in Ottawa and Mr.

Lewis,who was finally broken up hy the rising cost of livinp,, by the fact that the peonle of Newfoundland and other Provinces were no longer nrenared to put un with this total lack of interest in keeping the cost of living down in Newfoundland or anvwhere else in Canada. tlr. Speaker, this federal bill had clauses in there to regulate prices right across Canada,to permit the national government to get some control on netroleum nr:tces. Mr.

Sueaker, while there is some question as to whether or not this bill was going further than it was necessary, in my opinion the only way that you are going to have total regulations of petroleum prices within Canada is by doing it on a national basis. If, and I say ''If'', Mr. Speaker, we conclude that we can effectively br~ng down petroleum nrices by setting un a regulatory body, we shall do so. To date we have not concluded that we will have any effect in bringing down prices by setting up a regulatory agency. 6293

Ma~• H, 1974 Tane 1651 (Afternoon) PK - f, He have not reached a final decision on this matter, We are not going to be rushed into it hy the ravings of the honourable members opposite. When we liave made a decision on this noint, we will bring in a report to this honourable House. 'lR, NEARY: Mr. Sneaker, there is what happens ,.;rhen you send a boy to do a man's joh. Sir, is the minister aware that the Government of Canada have allocated $9 million to the province, this nrovince,to offset an increase in gasoline and heating oil nrices? MR. BARRY: That is untrue. That is untrue. MR.

NEARY: Is the minister aware ---·- ·-- MR. BARRY: That is a false statement. MR. NEARY: that Nova Scoti~ has set aside $5 million to offset increases in heating oil and gasoline in Nova Scotia? Is the minister aware that it would he misappropriation of funds if this nrovince did not use part of that $9 million to offset an increase in p,asoline and heating oil prices? Is the minister aware of these three facts? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I never heard so much mis:f_n formation containPcl in one question in all of my life.

I th:lnk it was in"l984"that is the book, ''198/+'~with big brother as the main character, they had a Denartment of lfisinformation, Mr. Speaker. Well I submit that if that honourable crowd opposite ever get into power, the honourahle Member for Bell Island will he the Minister for '!isinformation because - MR. NEARY: Not misappropriation like that crowd over there. MR. BARRY: !lr. Speaker, everything that the honourable member has said in that statement that he made - it was not a question - that statement - MR. NF.ARY: Three questions I had. }IR. BARRY: - was totally false. MR. NEARY: Three questions I asked.

MR. BARRY: Was totally false. ~!R. NEARY: No, Mr. Sneaker, MR. BAJffiY: Mr. Sr,eaker, this province, as the Minister of Finance has nointed out in his budget, this province 6294

May 16, 1974 Tape 1651 (Afternoon) PK - 7 MR. NEARY: Gets $9 million. J-4R. BARRY: Received a certain additional amount in equalization payments. MR. NEARY: No. MR. BARRY: Because of the revenue that had gone to other provinces from increased petroleW11 prices, an increase in equalization payments, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. BARRY: No payment designated to reduce the price of petroleum products. As a matter of fact that reminds me of the third item, Mr.

Speaker, that the federal government, in this letter that it sent out to the various Ministers of Energy, in the last week, the third element in there explaining this three point seven cent increase, the third element was an increase in federal sales taxes on petrolum oroducts. - MR. NEARY: For which they are giving him $9 million. MR. BARRY: An increase in the federal sales tax, Mr. Soeaker, that is how a part of that increase cost to our consumer in Newfoundland is made up. In this province we have removed the sales tax, Mr. Speaker. We have removed the sales tax!

What do we see the Liberal Government in Ottawa doin~? We see them exploiting, capitalizing on this inflationary trend, caused oartly by international factors but we submit to a great extent caused by the mismanagement of the Liberal Government in Ottawa. AN HON. MEMBER: HP,.,.! Hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary CfUestion; The minister did not give me an answer to either one of the three question£ I put to him, Sir. So I am going to ask the minister if he is aware that Mr.

Macdonald, the Federal Minister of Mines and Ene~ey,yesterday severly criticized the Progressive Conservative Premier of Ontario, the minister's idol up in Ontario, Premier Davis, for not using the money_ that was turned ove1:, by the Government of Canada as a reSBlt of the exl)ort tax 6295

Hay 16, 1974 Tape 1651 (Afternoon) AN HON. MFl BER : On a point of order, vr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PK - 8 ~Ill. tJARSHALL; On a point of order, '•Ir. Speaker. The honourable member is entering into a debate in the question period on this point and as such he is obviously out of order. MR. ROWE. W.N: On this point of order, ~r. Sneaker! The honourable Member for Bell Island was asking a question of the Hon. Minister of Energy.

Now we sat here, Sir, speaking to this point of order, and heard the Minister of Energy go off on all kinds of irrelevancies in the hope that ~.,e 1-1ould get one or two nuggets of information from him. Now I would ask, Sir, that the same courtesy b~ extented to my honourable colleague in the asking of the ouestion. You know, if you were p.oin g to call him to order, S:I r, then I would sub;i t to Your Honour that when a minister gets up and starts to rave on and is not strictly relevant to the question asked,that Your Honour call him to order as well, which Your Honour has not d~ne to date. HR.

SPEAKER : Order nlease! Here is a loud point of levity on these ouestions• If we were sticking strickiy to the rule. perhaps the honourable 'lemher for Bell Island's first question i.,ould not have been allowed. The answers given hy the Hon. ~'inister of Mines and F'nergy have practically been a speech and not a concise answer as the question there reouires. The honourable 11emher for Bell Island has made a speech in asking a question, so I submit that hoth these honourable gentlemen are out of order. ~"...._N_E_~Y; Let me see if I can put the question prooerly then Sir, I shall try and rephrase it.

Is the minister aware that Mr. }facdonald, the Federal Minister of ~incs and Energy,was severly critical of the Premier of Ontario for not usinr, the tax money, the increase in the equalization grants to offset an increase in gasoline and heating oil in the Province of Ontario? Is the minister avare of that? MR. _BARRY: ~fr. Speaker, what does the honourahle member want us to do? To fall do~m and bow and lick shoe laces every time that a Liberal minister in Ottawa shoots off? Does the honourable member opposite 6296

May 16, 1974 Tape 1651 (Afternoon) PK - 9 place the same emphasis - HR. NEARY: Answer the questions. MR. BARRY: - on the statement by the Honourable Donald '~acdonald as he does on the statement brought down from on high by Jehovah:' AN HON. MEMBER: Haw! Haw! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we have our own opinions. For the first time in Newfoundland history, we have a government that forms its own opinions ;Jlld that just d?es not lap up whatever is fed it by a Liberal minister in Ottawa. But if I could answer that que,stion - 'MR. W. N. RO\JF: On a r,oint of order, Hr. Speaker.

If the honourable minister were a good orator, then we would not mind listening to him • Unfortunately that is not the case. We do not like two sneeches from him. I would suggest, Sir, that if the honourable minister should not want to answer the auestions and he has shown that he is not going to answer the cuestions,that Your Honour,rather than, you know, allow him to carry on like that, call him to order and suggest to the minister that he answer the auestion or say nothing, rather than just waffle on like he has hein,:,: doing for the last twentv mi.nutes. MR. BIJ'.RY: To that point of order, Mr.

Speaker, if I may: If the honourable members oonosite feel that I am out of order at any particular time,they can stand up,which the honourable did on that occasion, and bring it to the attention of Your Honour, I agree that J was deviating somewhat from the thrust of the honourable member's q1;1estion - if I could get more to the point. AN HON. MF.MBER: We want Your Honour to rule on the point of order. MR. BAR'R.Y: We have a choice - MR. NEARY: Could we have a ruling, Mr. Speaker? MR. BARRY: I have agreed that there was a point made by the honourable member opposite. MR.

NEARY: On the point of order that was raised, Mr. Sneaker, in my opinion Your Honour has to made a ruling. MR. BARRY: We are not deciding on his opinion. 6297

May Hi, 1974 Tane 1651 (Afternoon) PK - 10 'MR. NEARY: The Minister is not runninf!; the House, you know, Your Honour is running the House. HON. NEHBERS: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: So we havP to have a ruling on the point of order. Sit down! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! '!'he point of order ra:ised bv the honourable r<ember for White Bay South was r,er!lans well talren. I am sure the Hon. Yinister of Hines and Fnerp,y is aware that he waR not relevant to the ouestion asked by the Member for Bell Island. He was nroceedinp to make a snPech.

I shall uermit him to continue on the assumption that he :Is P,oing to be precise with regards to the answer to the question. ~lll. BARRY: Th11.nk vou. ~•r. SpPaker, I am p,lad you broupht that to mv attention, I was not aware of it. When this nrov:lnce recPived increased equalization nayn,entR and I have to no:lnt out that they <lid not amount to an enormous amount of money - "IR. NEARY: Nine million dollars. !·fR. HARRY : they ,,,ere - Yes, a reasonablE' amount, nothing - AN ]TON. HV.-<RER: Dnreasonablv Rmall. l'!ll..

HARRY: Nothing near to what is needed in order to meE't the demands ----- of the ueonle of Newfoundland for services. All HON. MEl-'BF.P. : Inaudible. ''R. BARRY: Mr. Sneaker, again we have the misinfornation being ----- vomited, out by the honourable member opposite. This nayment was not made to reduce petroleum prices. This government had taken steps before this payment was ever received to re<luce petroleum orices by removin~ the sales tax. Now this oayment was an increase in efiualization payments to go into the general revenue of the province, to be used as the or:l.orities of the J)rovince demanded.

Now, Mr. Sneaker, this money is being used to build hospitals, This money is being used to build schools. This money is }einP, used to build roads. This money is being used to put in water and sewer systems, all of which my honourable colleagues have pointed out in their estimates and will be 6298

May 16, 1974 Tape 1651 (Afternoon) PK - 11 revealing in more detail later. Now if the honourable member is saying that ,,,e are doinJ!; WTOT'lf' hy not ~utting this money into the reduction of petroleum prices, then I say to him that is his opinion and he is entitled to it but I say he is wrong. MR. NEARY: ~~r. Sneaker, is the minister denying that there was a general understanding - }1R. BARRY: I am denying that, yes, I am denying that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! NR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER: The Chair has allowed this issue to go on for some time now and it has become a debate rather than a straip;htfon•ard auestion, a surplementar)' question in the "nsv~r period. I think we should )?et on to other questions really. HR. ROWE, W. N. !-fr. Sneal<er, a suppler,entary - I am a different member, obviously, but it is on the same issue, .r would like the opnortunity to ask the minister a st~aiJ!;htfon•ard question .• We have not been able to elicit any information froM him.

Resides nailing futility against the Liberal Government in Ottawa, is this minister's administration going to do anything to try and offset the rtsinf' cost of petroleum nroducts in this nrovince? Is he going to do anything besides rale against the Liberal Government in f\ttawa? MR. BARRY: Mr. Sneaker, to reiterate.we have already done something in that we have removed the nrovincial sales tax. Fe cannot reMove the federal sales tax• W~ would like to but that is not within our nower.

Secondly, we are now analyzing the situation to determine whether we can effectively regulate prices within the province and gain anything by so doing, Mr. Speaker, to benefit the consumer. At the present time we cannot say that we will bring any benefits to t.he consumer and we may even disadvantage the consumer by creating another bureaucracy - NEARY: •••• the machinery is there already. 6299

Hay 16, 1974 Tane 1651 (Afternoon) PK - 12 ~1R. BAP_RY: Hr. Speaker. th.- hot1ourable memher is referrinR to the Public Utilities Board which has more work to do do~m there now than almost it can handle. 6300

May 16, 1974. Tape 1652 RH - 1 We have an excellent Chairman down there who is being worked to death, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Powell, the Chairman of that Board is one of the most able administ ,rators in our Province. He is probably putting more energy into his job than any other individual that I know in the Province. The honourable member opposite is saying that with the heavy burdens they now have that they can without any additional staff get into the regulation of petroleum prices. That is total absurdity, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I think the point that the honourable members opposite are asking is whether the Provincial Government is in a position at this time to further subsidize petroleum prices from its own revenues. Mr. Speaker, I can say that at this time, this government is not in a position to do this as is clearly set out in the budget speech of the honourable Minister of Finance. As any member can see, anybody with any common sense at all can see that this Province can barely scrape by with providing the services that are needed, desperately needed by our people.

We cannot afford to subsidize petroleum prices, a subsidization, Mr. Speaker, which I should point out does not benefit equally every resident in Newfound­ land the way the provision of general services does. It benefits most the people who have the greatest consumption of the petroleum products. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. BARRY: If I could just conclude, Mr.

Speaker, I will say that this government at the present time has set out its financial priorities in the budget speech.While we can sympathize with the anger of our people for seeing an increase in petroleum prices with the added cost of living that results from this.while we are angered ourselves by the Federal Government permitting this to happen, we are not in a position at this time to further subsidize it. One final point, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member for Bell Island is implying that there was a general understanding between 6301

May 16, 1974. Tape 1652 RH - 2 provinces that this money would be used to further subsidize petroleum prices. Mr. Speaker, if that be not a lie, it is because the honourable member does not know any better. It is definitely a false statement, a misstatement, an untrue statement. MR. NEARY: It is not untrue. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador North. MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I vould like to direct a question to the Minister of Tourism. I wonder if the minister can inform the Rouse if there will be any work done on a national park in Labrador this year.

I know there is some correspondence and some survey work has been done over the last couple of years. I think it proper to conclude that this year they have intended to establish a national park. I am concerned, Sir, about an

article in the "Daily News" today where they are taking the polar bears and the porcupines and the wolves from Labrador and bringing them up to the Salmonier Line. The member from Harbour Grace - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The honourable member for Labrador North is really making a speech. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, if the minister have any information or can inform the House if there will be any work this year on a national park, if there be one in planning? There is considerable correspondence going on. Maybe he can enlighten the House as to what is happening as far as a national park.

We do not want to see our wild beasts being taken down to the Island. They may not live in this - MR. T. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge,at this point in time, the matter is strictly in the initial negotiation stage or initial talking stage. I cannot truthfully see how any work will start on it in this current fiscal year,unless there be a change in the Federal attitude. MR, WOODWARD: A supplementary question, Mr.

Speaker: I have knowledge and there has been a considerable amount of work done as far as survey work is concerned, both between the Province and the Federal Government, and there is work planned for this year. So maybe if the minister at a 6302

May 16, 1974. Tape 1652 RH - 3 later date can gather the information, he can give more information to the House regarding the park. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I would be delighted as the minister responsible for the parks in the Province, that if the honourable member should have any information from Ottawa that we do not have,I would very much like to get it. I am not really too double-minded which direction it comes from,as long as we get it. I have not any information of any staff this year. If he sho~ld have, I should like to have it. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for White Bay South. MR. W.

ROWE: I would like to address a question to the Minister of Justice, Mr. Speaker. In view of the representations recently made to the Minister of Justice, Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell the House if he is going to bring legislation before the House this session to allow the Newfoundland constabulary to have a normal trade union organization, belonging to a normal trade union organization with all of the rights and privileges attendant thereon,including the right to strike? MR. T.A. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, today at noon I received a very good brief and I had a very excellent meeting with representatives of the Newfoundland Federation of Labour and with the Police Brotherhood. The basic request in that brief was that they be given the right to join a trade union of their choice and also that consideration be given to the preparing of a brand new constabulary act,and the view was expressed at the meeting that the present act,which was passed in 1970 1 (I think it was) is totally unsatisfactory.

I undertook,and this was all they asked me to do, they are very reasonable people, to bring the brief to the attention of all members of government in the hope that during the forthcoming months we can get to work on seeing whether a totally new act is necessary or whether massive amendments to the present one are. That is all that would be appropriate for me to say now. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to give notice that I am not 6303

May 16, 1974. Tape 1652 RH - 4 satisfied with the answers to questions given by the Minister of Mines Sir, and I would like to debate it later on this afternoon,during the late show. Sir, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Tourism. Would the minister inform the House if all the provincial parks will be open by May 24th, a holiday. MR. DOYLE: No, they will not, Mr. Speaker. The parks that were able to be opened were opened yesterday, May 15 • .which is the official opening date.

There are certain parks in the Province,because of weather, snow and conditions of roads brought about by the winter conditions,will not be opened for another couple of weeks. I would say they all will be opened by the first of June. About one-half of them opened yesterday. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Education, Sir, would inform the House what steps his department has taken to react to a secret ballot that has been taken,on at least two occasions if not three occasions, to change the hours of work in the minister's department? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, actually to put this in context, many government departments and perhaps all have made various requests with respect to hours of work and these are all being considered together by government, not department by department. They are all being considered together so that,presumeably, among the criteria, ntnnber one is to get a reasonable flow in and out so that everybody is not coming the same time,from the point of view of traffic and also from the point of view of the kind of services rendered and what kinds being most accessible to the general public.

All of these matters are being considered together, not individually department by department. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the minister indicate then when the public service employees here in Confederation Building can expect a reply to their request to have the hours of work changed? How long is it going to take to study this matter? 6304

May 16, 1974. Tape 1652 RH - 5 MR. OTTENHEIMER: I would think, Mr. Speaker, that certainly within the next month a final decision will be made on that. MR. SP EAKER: Before we get into Orders of the Day, according to the new rules I have to indicate what matters will be discussed on Thursdav. The only notice I have been given is the verbal notice just given by th<> member for Bell Island. This will be discussed at five thirty,assuming he passes the thing to me in writing by five o'clock. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Order 2, Committee of Ways and Means.

For the benefit of the Opposition I might say this is the budget speech. MR. SPEAKER: Order 2, Committee of Ways and Means. I think the hon­ ourable member for White Bay South, I believe it was, adjourned the debate last night. MR. W. ROWE: last night. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, 1 think I spoke five minutes or something Seven minutes. Seven minutes, very good Sir. Sir, I want to repeat some- thing which I said last night. I do not think it is needless repetition, I think it is extremely necessary repetition. When the Budget Speech was called, Mr.

Speaker, we saw the member for Bell Island spring to his feet and deliver himself of a forty-five minute excellent oration. The member for Labrador North subsequently got up,right after him,and delivered a half an hour or forty minute speech. Then, Sir, I called upon members opposite who wanted to speak,since we are few in . number, to rise and speak on the Budget debate, ministers or backbenchers. Nobody, Sir, got up to speak. So, I, as the third member of the opposition,was forced or see the debate closed; I was forced to rise to my feet in order to speak in the Budget Speech debate.

Now, Sir, I passed comment on that action by the government side of the Rouse because it indicates that although the House Leader and his minions on that side had made every effort, albeit unsuccessfully, to 111\lZzle this side of the House, he has made every 6305

May 16, 1974. Tape 1652 RH - 6 effort to muzzle this side of the House with no success. He has obviously successfully muzzled his own colleagues and supporters on that side stifled all debate or comment or observation or remark by anybody on the government side of the House. I make that observation, Sir, because it is a commentary on what is going on in that government and in that caucus, the P.C. caucus.

The only other alternative of course and this is not outside the realm of possibility, the other alternative is that they are waiting for all of us to speak here, one by one,and then members of the other side can get up when we have exhausted our right to speak, can get up one after another, twenty or thirty of them,and can parade their wares before the House and before the public. That is the other alternative, Mr. Speaker, and I would not be surprised if the House Leader tried that alternative.

It would be consistent with the lack of fair play and the arrogant stand which he and his colleagues have taken during this whole session and indeed all sessions of the House, but of course culminating in this session, worst example in this session of trying to cut of, in fact cutting off debate on the estimates and limiting the amount of time which members can speak in this House. Mr. Speaker, having had the debate on the estimates cut off, my colleague, the member for Bell Island, sought to have his forty-five minute speech extended to ask a few questions of the government.

That courtesy which is normally extended as a matter of course to allow a member to wind up his remarks was refused again by members on the other side of the House. Some members said yes, some members said no. It represents to me, Sir, one consistent whole piece of action by this administration, a desire to cover up and to hide the answers, if they have any answers to the questions which they know we want answered and which they know the people of Newfoundland want answered. Over $350 million, Mr.

Speaker, more than $350 million, which is almost $1 million a day of expenditure,was allowed by this government to go through the House without any questions wharsoever, without any debate 6306

May 16, 1974. Tape 1652 RH - 7 being allowed on them, without any comments from the ministers concerned, without any minister answering questions on over $350 million. I suppose three or four years ago $350 million would have been the whole budget for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Now it represents nearly half, about half of the whole budget.

This administration,in its endeavour to get out of the House of Assembly as quick as possible without answering questions,made sure by the most arrogant use of their majority that over half the money being voted by this House for expenditure would go through on a blank check,without any questions asked, without any answers being given. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is bad enough, It is bad enough that this government allows that to happen, in fact forced it to happen but what is even worse is the fact that the House Leader, the government House Leader,supported again by his colleagues,made sure that he calls the departments of expenditure which were among the least controversial departments, He made sure and certain that the departments of government which would likely involve the government in embarrassment, which would show up the government for muddled policy decisions, which showed that the government had no answers to many of the questions that people are asking all throughout this Province, the House Leader and his supporters made sure that these departments were kept back, kept to the last so that there was every likelihood they would never see the light of day in the estimates' debate.

That needs to be said, Mr. Speaker, because it indicates clearly and graphically what type of an administration and government we have in this Province today. Departments such as Education, the highest spending department of all,which should have been brought on first in this House because first of all the amount of money is the greatest of all the departments and second of all, I suppose it touches every man, woman and child more 6307

May 16, 1974. Tape 1652 RH - 8 intimately than any other department in the government, the Department of Education which should have been brought on first was kept back purposely by the government House Leader,by design of the administration and the government, so that there would never be any question .s asked on the Department of Education. Fisheries, surely one of the most important departments in this government or any government in Newfoundland,which should have been called among the first, second or third,kept back once more and no questions allowed to be asked or answered on that Department of Fisheries.

The Department of Public Works,which my friend the member for Labrador West who happens to be the minister of at the moment, a department which has been known in the past to be slightly embarrassing to the government, kept back once more so that no questions could be asked by members of this side of the House and no answers could be given by the ministers of the Crown. Rehabilitation and Recreation, Tourism, Tourism with the great Confederation Silver Anniversary rip-off, upwards of probably $6 million going to be spent in this Province.

No, Sir, no hint that that might come up before the House of Assembly or the connnittee for debate, kept back once more so that no embarrassing questions could be asked of the minister or of the government. There are ten or a dozen similiar departments. The Department of Health, the second highest in expenditure and again a department which is felt almost on a daily basis by the -people of this Province, not put forward first, second or third,to make sure that we could ask questions on it and get information from the government. No,Mr.

Speaker, kept in the background knowing that we would exhaust the seventy-five hours of time forcibly imposed on us by the government House Leader,and that department would never see the light of day. I went through the estimates quickly again, Sir, yesterday,and questions spring up from the paper as you are looking through the estimates, questions spring up 6308

Nay 16. 1974 Tape 1653 (afternoon) IB-1 that we would want to ask this government. Ender the Department of Education.for example.which should have been the first department called, we would have liked to hear the Minister of Education and the Minister of Finance rationalize their new policy of providing tuition and allowances on a certain scale to the f!emorial University students when two years ago, I believe it was, they wiped out tuitions and allowances or virtually wiped them out sayine at the ti.me that there was no need of them.thereby precipitating a disastrous situation at Memorial University.

Here they were forced once more by a situation which they had perpetrated and which had gotten completely out of control. forced to reinstate it. We would have liked to hear the t•inister of Fducation say a word or two of explanation on' that but no, Sir, no opportunity, not one question allowed to be asked. DREE schools.whic-h is another topic - the minister has said that they are not going to r-o after money from Ottawa to build DREE schools throughout this province.

The specious argument he gave for that was because they were too expensive,as if it were not possihh• to sit down and renegotiate or negotiate schools which were more within our means. But no. the minister has decided and his colleagues have decided to spurn all help from Ottawa for school construction in this province at a time when the boards of education are crying out for money for school construction. I would have liked to ask the minister and I am sure my colleaj!ue, the me1nber for St. Barbe North, would have wanted to ask the minister t-~hy. Give us an explanation.

Give us an answer to some of these questions. No, Sir, no opportunity provided. School boards: Sir, you hear nearly every day you turn on the news, school boards all over this province virtually on the brink of bankruptcy;to borrow a phrase from the :t,linister of Finance. We would have liked to find out from the Minister of Education what is the actual situation. What does the government intend to do about it? But no, Sir, the department is kept back so the minister and his colleagues are spared any possible embarrassment regarding that situation. 6309

May 16, 1974 Tape 1653 IB-2 On school construction generally, Nr. Speaker, we would have liked to have some information • Not an iota of infonnation. The whole question of }•emorial University, where we voted through millions of dollars without any explanation by the minister. Presumably the minister has seen the budget of Memorial University to see where the money is being spent. Nobody in this House has had any explanation as to where the untold millions of dollars are going for ~emorial University.

Memorial University, grant-in-aid; nearly $24 million dollars by way of a grant-in-aid to }'emorial University.voted through, Mr. Speaker, with not one jot of information given by the minister, no questions alJowed to be asked, a blank check to I1emorial l'niversity. I am sure they need it but as a responsH,le member of this House I would have liked to hear from the minister some scintilla of explanation as to what they propose to do with that money.

Presumably the treasury board and the minister have seen the budget at the university even if they are loath to have it made public or tabled in this House of Assembly. lmy new programmes by the Minister of Education this year? The Minister of Education has kept a very low profile over the past few months concerning his department. Nobody seems to know what is going on.

The school buses for example; the minister came in the other day and gave what was a ministerial statement, supposed to be a policy statement,consisting of historical theses on school buses with a one-sentence or two--sentence statement of policy as to what the government is going to do 1·1i th this very knotty, thorny problem of transporting children to school, a policy, by the way, which has not, I believe, been universally accepted. It has been rejected by a number of educators as responsible and as expert as the honourable minister, Mr. Speaker. Why does the minister not give us some information?

Why did he not insist that the Department of Education, the most problematical, controversial department of government, why did he not insist or the House Leader if he be responsible as a government leader, that this department come forward and receive treatment early 6310

~ay lG, 1974 Tape 1653 IE-3 on in the estimates? We all know why, Hr. Speal•er. We knm,· why, Mr. Speaker. AN HONOUR.ABLE MEMBER: The honourahle member's brother asked us to hold it out. MR. W. ROWE: Brother asked to hold it out ? Do not let the House ----- -- - --·- Leader mislead the House. Let us not have '!{r. Nastiness•· himself, Sir, pour !'lore of his venom into this House. If this government had any gumption or couraf!:e, J-'r.

Speaker, it would have brought that tremendously important department into the estimates, into the committee .first of all so that we could ask the minister some questions,instead of having the craven gall to keep it hack knowing full well that there would be no questions asked of the }linister of Education on his department. llehabilitation and Recreation - another department which touches very intimately a great number of people. Homes for the aged for exam!)le - I ~-muld lil-.e to asl· the minister some questions on homes for the aged.

Recreation and sports services under that department ·· I would like to hear the minister tell us what is going to be clone in the various communities in Newfoundland and Labrador this year by way of providing facilities for sports and athletic activities. He heard the Minister of Finance p:o down to Burin district and say, Do not be so foolish as to ask for a stadium or for some sports facilities.

Have more responsibility than to ask the governroent to provide that on the Burin Peninsula, giving rise to what ar~ounte d nearly to a rebellion in that part of our province and forced the Premier in a public statement,on a stage ,with the Jfinister of Finance sitting by his side,to say, ' 'This gove>rnment will spend money on recreation and sports facilities." "I do not care," said the Pre1:11ier, "who says differently" and looked at and pointed at "CruE,ty Scrooge' himself and put him right in his place.

There seems to be a certain conflict in policy by the administration as to what they are going to do for sports and recreation throughout this province. Why did we not hear something from the minister on rehabilitation and recreation? No, Sir, it is 6311

May 16, 1974 Tape 1653 rn-4 another one of those problematical departments which the House Leader in bis usual way decided to keep back, not to call early on,so that no embarrassing questions could be asked of the minister or of the government. What new prograrimes are there under the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation? The minister certainly tloes not have a low image. He seeks every possible opportunity to put his pleasant visage before the television cameras.

I must say, Sir, that there has been a paucity of information forthcoming from the minister as to what new programmes there are going to be in this province this year in the field of recreation or in the field of rehabilitation. The same thing applies to the Department of Health - kept back by design, by plot, by the Hinister without Portfolio, the Government House Leader,and his colleagues,to spare the !1inister of Health any embarrassment as to what is going on. What new programmes is his department going to bring out in this present financial year? What hospitals are going to be built throughout this province?

Not a word, Sir. When are they going to be built? llhere are they going to be built? How large are they going to be? A question ~hich will be very embarrassing to the member for 13onavista South who knows that his people want a forty-odd bed hospital down in his area and the government is going to supply a twenty-five bed hospital when every indication was given by the Premier and others earlier on, Sir AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: \Ihat about the ambulance progra111D1e? ~~--__]~. ROHE'._ Well, what about the ambulance pregramme? We only pick it up, bits and pieces.

The minister made sure that his estimates were kept back and not brought before the House so that he would not have to answer auestions, Mr. Speaker. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ask them on the Order Papers. MR.~ ROWE:_ Ask them on the Order Papers? Do not be so foolish. The honourable member knows the Order Papers are not worth the paper they are written on, Mr. Speaker, as far as questions are concerned.because no answers again are forthcoming from this arrogant government. Some ministers have a sense of responsibility and others do not. 6312

May 16 1974 Tape 1653 IB-5 Medical care in general in the province; Sir, what is the state of medical care in this province? Nothing from the minister. The minister carries on like an obscure civil servant, no answers forthcoming. He made sure his department was not brought up so that we could ask questions t·n that. What about medicare, the medical care plan and the doctors' fees? The minister seems to be ready enough to come into this House to announce that doctors are going to be paid a higher amount of money this year or next year or last year for the services they are perforrninr;.

Ile was embarrassed when his supplementary supply came through the House because his department had grossly underestimated the needs and the costs of medical care or medicare last year in this province. We would like to ask the•minister why that was allowed to happen? What safeguards have been taken this year to make sure that they do not grossly underestimate the cost of medicare, the medical care plan in this province? But no, Sir, no opportunity given to this side of the House whatsoever. Mines and Energy - another department, Sir, whose policy is about as clear as ditch water.

Every now and then we pick up the paper and see that the honourable Yinister of Nines and Energy has spoken to Rotary or Kinsmen or Lions Clubland has annunciated some brand new p'Dlicy which he has not annunciated in this House before. ~lo opportunity, Sir, is given the members of this House, especially the official opposition, to question th<" ~'inister of f.nergy on his energy policy ,if there b_e an energy policy, which nobody has been able to perceive.

My honourable colleague, the member for Bell Island, has been at some pains for months to try to elicit some perm of a policy on energy from the Minister of Energy. What has the member received in reply? Nothing, Sir. Harangues and nonsense and character assassinations, all kinds of wishy-washy riffle from the honourable member, the Ninister of Nines and Energy. No policy, none whatsoever as far as we can see. We saw where earlier on at the earlier public energy conference they took a position which favored rich Alberta,for some strange reason. 6313

1'.ay 16, 1974 Tape 1653 IB-6 They were laughed at by all the responsible expertise in Canada for this government taking a position which supported the greedy position of Alberta in trying to lay their grubby hands on every cent that came from their oil wells rather than spreading the wealth a little bit throughout the country as a whole. We saw the Minister of !lines and Energy and the Premier,the spectacle of them supporting that policy at a conference in Ottawa - universal execration from everybody as a result.

Then we see the }finister of Justice going up to a closed session conference on energy and according to the Prime Minister and other ministers who came out thereafter was in total agreet:1ent with everything that was agreed upon there. There was unanimous agreement by all ministers, all governments who went to that conference. They agreed in fact with what the federal government is now doing in allowin~ this price increase. Is that not true?

Now the ¥inister of Mines and Energy stands up and says that they do not agree with it.after his colleague, the acting Premier, went up a month or so ago and unanimously.with his other counterparts including the federal government, agreed with the price to be given on oil exported for Alberta. unanimously agreed on how much would come to the federal government and how much would stay with the government of Alberta, unanimously agreed on certain price increases over the next few months, agreed to all that. Then we find the ¥inister of Mines and Energy standing up today and saying that they do not agree with it.

He stands up here piously in the House of Assembly and wonders why we on this side of the House are somewhat at a loss as to what the energy policy in this province is. We would like to ask the minister,but no. Because it was a controversial department,the government House Leader over there, Mr. Speaker, made sure it never saw the light of day. He pushed forward all the departments concerning which there was very little controversy and kept back all the departments, the important departments concerning which certain questions ought to have been asked.

We would have liked to ask the Minister of N..ines and Energy, concerning the Rural 6314

!'-fay 16, 1974 Tape 1653 IE-7 Electricity Authority,tre new programme, the capital construction programme of this year, where new generating capacity is going in for connnunities. We would have liked to get that information from him. No opportunity was provided by the honourable House Leader,in his desire to stiffle and gag members of this House who want to ask questions. ¥I". Speaker, we were involved in the Department of Industrial Development for about twenty minutes or a half hour.

We wanted to ask some detailed questions concerninp the Lower Churchill,in advance of the debate which will be coming up in the House. The estimates time was the appropriate time to ask these auestions,because there is a give and take and one can ask questions and get answers,short or long as the case may he. Then. we could be all prepared to go into the debate when the bill comes before the House with a firmly thought out position. 8ut no, Sir!

When my colleague, the member for Bell Island, asked for the curtesy of leave to be extended to him to continue some remarks on industrial development, the Bouse Leader and his cohorts,well trained I might say, most of the!!' anyway - some of them had the decency to say, "Yes, give him leave ,'' but no. not the House Leader and his particular clique. They s;,i<l. :;o, no l<>ave given to all,:,,.• questions to be asked. They would not allow leave to be p.iven so that we had to sit down and watch the spectacle of $350 million of public mc,ney going throui::h this House undebated.

It is no wonder, Sir, that this government is plummeting in popularity throughout this province. I was talking to a man who is l-ighly involved in the fisheries the other day. Sir, I do not know what his politics were or are, although I suspect what they are hut I cl.a not know what they were, He was disgusted at seeing the Department of Fisheries go through this House without any opportunity being given to members here to ask the minister what new programmes are going to be introduced this year and how much money is goinr, to be spent on this, that and the other thing.

He was disgusted, he and hundreds and thousands like him .. nr. Speaker. 6315

May 16, 1974 Tape 1653 IB-8 Forestry and Agriculture - another department which has some very great problems in it. Again because it is a controversial department the House Leader decided to hold the department back, make sure it never saw the light of day. I am sure that my colleague, the member for Bonavista North,would have had hundreds of sensible, straightforward questions to ask that minister concerning the administration of his department,but no opportunity was given.

The DREE Agreement on forestry,for example: I would have liked myself to ask the minister what the details of that agreement are, ,,hat is going to be the overall imp&ct and effect on the forestry industry in this province. No opportunity and never will get an opportunity probably to ask the minister. Sir, another example. of the contemptuous attitude of this government is that out of thirty-two or thirty-three members or whatever they have over there, they cannot even keep a quorum in the House. A quorum call, Mr. Speaker. }!R. SPEAKE~ .. JMR. DUNPHY),_ Would the clerk count the House, please? We have a quorum.

MR. W. __ R_9WE: Thank you, 1'1r. Speaker. It is just another example of the contempt which this government has for this parliamentary institution and their desire not to give out any information or even to show any interest in what goes on in tlis House; the apathy, the lack of energy that this government has on some oi these matters. My colleague, the member for Bell Island has asked questions of the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture 6316

May 16, 1974 Tape no. 1654 Page 1 - MW concerning the land freeze, the crown land freeze, which is now in effect. No questions have ever been answered on that, Mr. Speaker. No questions ever have been properly answered on that. It is difficult on the oral question period to have the give and take necessary to try to elicit information. Again this is another one of the reasons why the Department of Forestry was kept back by the Minister without Portfolio, the Government House Leader, so that these questions would, hopefully, never see the light of day. Mr.

Speaker, the same thing applies to the Reid land controversy which has been going on. Following a number of questions in this House by my colleagues and myself.concerning the possible sale by the Reid interests of their holdings in this province, this government was finally goaded into some action on the matter. If the controversy had not been raised or if we had not raised it here or if other people outside the House had not raised it, this government would have politely sat by, Mr.

Speaker, and allowed that land to be sold to anybody,for any purpose whatsoever,in spite of the fact that many people have by this time possessory rights in respect of that land and the public in some cases have recreation rights in respect of some of that land. They would have sat by, Sir, and allowed that to happen. There was never an opportunity provided here to have a full-fledged debate on that. The Minister of Forestry,in collusion with the Government House Leader,made sure that that department was kept well back and was never brought into this House for discussion. The famous Department of Tourism: Mr.

Speaker, let us have a look at some of the things there and see why that particular department never saw the light of day. Publicity and Investigation, Subhead 1303-03, $1, 100,000 to be spent on general publicity, development, development capital, documentary films, local tourist boards, advertising, newspapers, television magazines, etc. There is over $1 million to be spent on publicity by that department. If that be not a hot topic, Mr. Speaker, for discussion nothing should be. 6317

May 16, 1974 Tape no. 1654 Page 2 Mr, Speaker, we would like to know from the minister where that well over $1 million is going? Who is going to get it? Is "Jolly George" going to get his meat hooks into that? As he has in the past two or three years by the frank and candid admission of the Minister of Finance, when he got up and shocked one of our columnists in the "Evening Telegram" by admitting that this government supports political patronage, lashing it out with both hands.

The minister, I feel, Sir, should have exposed his department to public scrutiny and insisted for his own sake and for the sake of the government that this department did get a thorough going over when the estimates were brought in the House. But no, Sir, again he was kept back by the Minister without Portfolio,so that the thing never saw the light of day. Silver Anniversary Clebrations; $1.6 million, Mr. Speaker to be spent, plus another $170,000 in the Department of Finance, plus another $10,000 or $12,000 or $15,000 in nearly ever other department of government. MR. EVANS: What about the Golden Anniversary?

MR. W. N. ROWE: If the honourable member should be around during the Golden Anniversary, Sir, I hope that he then shows by that time he might have matured beyond adolescence and perhaps he shall have something to contribute to this House, Hopefully he shall Sir. The "Burp from Burgeo," Sir, has not been among those who have made the greatest contribution to this House in the past two years. By the Golden Anniversary, when he gets re-elected again - he spent twenty-five years trying to get elected, seven times trying to get elected. He finally got elected. MR. SPEAKER (Mr.

Dunphy): Oli'der please: The honourable member is not being relevant at all to the issue being discussed. I would ask the honourable member to do . so. MR. 'll. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, as Your Honour knows, the budget speech, if one should read the rules, one would see that the rules of relevance are relaxed during the bud3et speech, Mr. Speaker. Now what I was talking 6318

May 16, 1974 Tape no. 16~4 Page 3 about is the contribution by the honourable member over there. Also, Sir, if Your Honour remembers, I was drawn into an idiotic controversy with the honourable member because he is the one over there provoking me. Now if Your Honour ahould wish to rule me out of order, I would ask Your Honour to rule that kind of comment in the House out of order as well. I am sure Your Honour will. Mr. Speaker, he was twenty-five years trying to get elected - the Silver Anniversary, defeated next time. Another twenty-five years and he might be elected for the Golden Anniversary.

Perhaps he will be a little bit more - MR. EVANS: (Inaudible) • MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Dunphy): Order please! When an honourable member is speaking from his seat, I think all other honourable members should afford him the coutesy of silence. Every one who speaks in the House has the right to be heard in silence. MR. W. N. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When he did get elected, it cost the public $2.6 million excess money to try to put the member in the House. MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). MR. W. N. ROWE: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, if I may be permitted by "Mr.

Wisdom" himself, "The Burp from Burgeo" to continue, I would say, Sir, that when one looks at all the hidden costs on the Silver Anniversary of Confederation, upwards of $5 million or $6 million of public money will be spent this year by the government. Some of it might be well spent. Other portions of that amount will be lashed out in political patronage to "Jolly George" and his buccaneers and to other favourites of this government. Political patronage has been admitted by the Minister of Finance,when all over the province there is a crying need for water and sewer systems, road construction and pavement.

This government, to listen to the Minister of Finance, is broke,but it still came up with a surplus; imposes a sales tax, imposes an increase in the tax on incomes. 63i9

May 16, 1974 Tape no. 1654 Page 4 MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Dunphy) : I would like to bring to the honourable member's attention that his time is almost up. MR. W. N. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I will wind her up. They can spend money, Sir, on everything that it suits their fancy to spend money on. They lash it out in political patronage but not on the really necessary things. The Department of Fisheries: We would have liked to ask the minister what new programmes and projects he has.

The fish plant down in LaScie,in my district,this year was a tissue of errors and mistakes and everything else in not being able, for some reason or other, to get somebody to manage that plant until very late in the season, Mr. Speaker. it was probably too late for some fishermen who ordinarily get fitted out . The minister knows that . The Department of Public Works: There should have been some questions on the regional college in Corner Brook. A nice, nifty, little question could have been answered about the Premier's house as to how much money have the government spent on renovating the Premier's house .

But no, Public Works was not allowed to see the light of day. No controversial department, Mr. Speaker, was allowed to see the light of day. Now my suggestion to the honourable ministers (I will wind up on this note, Sir) is that every minister, if he should have any gumption at all, any sense of responsibility at all, every minister whose estimates did not come into the Committee of the Whole should get up during this budget speech and use his time to explain to this House what programmes and projects he is going to do this year under his department and what the money is going to be spent on.

He should allow members of the opposition, if he has any courage, to ask the questions and to yield to members of the opposition in order to allow these questions to be asked. If forty-five minutes be not enough, the courtesy of the House should be extended to that minister to carry on until members of the House are reasonably satisfied with the answers that have been given or at least be given the opportunity to ask the questions. 6320

May 16, 1974 Tape no, 1654 Page 5 Mr.

Speaker, if the ministers should not do this, if the ministers should not take advantage of the time which is left to allow questions to be asked and to give information to this House, the people of Newfoundland can only re-enforce the conclusion they have already drawn; namely, that the government conspired to keep back the controversial departments and the embarrassing departments and not allow questions to be.asked on them which might cause them some embarrassment or which might have been controversial, In departments like Education and Fisheries.which should have been brought up first, for some reason,whether it be apathy or indifference or the arrogance for which this government are becoming famous, they did not see fit to bring them forward,a:id the people of Newfoundland are the losers.

Who cares if we get an opportunity to ask questions? That is not important, Mr. Speaker. What is important is that through us some information can be gotten out to the public of this province. The press can report it. The people sitting in the visitors' galleries can see the government and see what they are going to do. That is what is important.

If the ministers of this government, Sir, who have not had their estimates brought before the Committee of Supply, do not allow questions to be asked or get up and explain their estimates during this budget speech, then they deserve to be condemned as totally useless and arrogant, making a dictatorial use of power which has beP.n reposed in them by the people of this province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I think I will have a few words to say on the budget speech. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Dunphy): Order please! MR. MORGAN: I hope I can be heard in silence. Mr.

Speaker, the last speaker from the opposition side of the House of Assembly is condemning the government because of the fact that he could not debate the estimates of various departments. 6321

May 16, 1974 Tape no. 1654 Page 6 My reply to that kind of a charge is that if the same honourable member from White Bay South had not spent nineteen or twenty hours, approximately twenty hours of debate, trying to castigate the character of one honourable minister of this government, he would have had adequate and quite ample time to debate the estimates of Tourism, Fisheries and other departments. The opposition chose in the debate on the estimates to stand in this Assembly day after day, session after session, sitting after sitting, and use up the time in castigating the characters of government members.

On the Department of Rural Development, the opposition chose to condemn the business enterprise of the Hon. Member for Trinity South more so than the estimates of his department. Day after day we stood here as backbenchers and listened to the kind of trash that went on. The same honourable gentleman can stand in this House of Assembly today and say that he was unable to obtain information on the various government departments, He spent twenty hours on one single heading on the estimates. That is the first time in the history of debating the estimates in this House.

He spent twenty hours on the one single heading, the salary of the Minister of Finance, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Dunphy): Order please: Would the honourable members to my righ,t refrain from comments while the Member for Bonavista South is speaking. He has the right to be heard in silence. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I sincerely hope that the rules of the House will be abided by by the opposition members.

To stand twenty hours debating one. single heading in the estimates, the salary of the Minister of Finance, to me is ridiculous when we had so much important business to discuss, so many important questions to be asked of the different headings and the different departments. 6322

May 16, 1974 Tape no. 1654 Page 7 Why did they choose to stand and to try to castigate one minister and to condemn the other, two single headings, the minister's salary on Rural Development and the minister's salary on Finance? Why did the opposition try to do that? Was it to try to get the public of Newfoundland to believe that the government were trying to muzzle them in time with seventy-five hours only? Ridiculous! The people of the province are not that naive. Seventy-five hours of debate was adequate time to debate the various departments' estimates.

Instead the opposition chose to do what they did and that was to waste the time. Now they stand and say that the government muzzled us, we could not debate the estimates. Then to listen to the Hon. Member for White Bay South stand in the House and say, "Why did not the Minister of Education bring such an important department forward first for debate in the House of Assembly? I will tell them why he did not do it. Our House Leader was requested of the critic on the opposition side of the House on education to delay the estimates on education because he was absent from the House of Assembly. MR. F. B. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, to a point of order. We have been dealing with the estimates for some number of weeks and the Minister of Education and myself did have an agreement to hold off the consideration of the estimates on a number of days. The agreement was not to hold off the consideration of the estimates of the Department of Education for the past two or three or four weeks or for the seventy-five hours. I want that to be made most clear. I would ask the Member for Bonavista South to withdraw that statement because it is not correct. MR. MORGAN:Mr. Speaker, on that point of order.

I did state and I state again that the reason why the Education estimates were not brought forward before they were brought forward in the House and unfortunately they could not get debated because the time had elapsed, was that the critic on the opposition side on education had requested the government, the government on this side and the Minister of Education, 6323

May 16, 1974 Tape no. 1654 Page 8 to hold back the Department of Education to give him time to get back in the House to discuas the estimates. MR. F. B. ROWE: Mr. Speaker to a point of order. The Hon. Member for Bonavista South is deliberately misleading and confusing the House. I asked for an agreement with the Minister of Education to hold off the consideration of the Department of Education on one or two days, on one or two occasions. Now the Member for Bonavista South is trying to leave the impression that I asked to put this off for the whole period of time. That is simply not true. Mr.

Speaker, something else is more important here on this point of order. MR. MORGAN: State the point of order. MR. F. B. ROWE: I am stating my point of order,if the Yahoo would shut up. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. F. B. ROWE: I am standing on a point of order, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to be heard in silence. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is another very important principle here. As far as I understand it, there is a gentleman's agreement in this honourable House, when members on both sides of the House can get together privately and come to certain agreements in private conversation.

If this were to be used as a strategy on the other side of the House, well God help any private conversations that can be held between members on various sides of the House. Now, Mr. Speaker, before sitting down on this point of order, I would like for the Hon. Minister of Education to get up and tell the truth on this matter and ask his colleague to stop using the agreement we had between ourselves as dirty, vicious propaganda. MR. OTTENBEIMER: Mr. Speaker, if I may speak on this point of order? MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Dunphy) : The Hon. Minister of Education. 6324

May 16, 1974 Tape no. 1654 Page 9 MR. OTTENHEIMER: I will speak on the point of order but obviously with a certain latitude because it would be very difficult to relate it specifically to a point of order. I would like to state this for the record. I think the honourable gentleman knows that when he went to get up, I intended to get up on my own initiative and not under duress. It was my intention to do so to clarify what is a question of fact, not to make any comment on it.

As I recall,when the budget was brought down, a day or two after, the honourable gentleman mentionea to me that he planned to go in his district the following week and whether the estimates . of the Department of Education could be postponed or not be called during that week,at which time I undertook to mention it to the House Leader and to request him. I believe I was out of town for a day or so after that and I presume the House Leader got back to the honourable gentleman.

The facts,as I recall them,were that I was requested by the honourable gentleman to ask the House Leader not to call the Education estimates during a specific week, which I did. I think what followed after was that the House Leader informed the gentleman that that would be done. All I wish to do is to state the facts as I recall them. MR. F. B. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, the Hon. Minister of Education was out of town at the time I was present in the House. It is a gentleman's agreement that has been viciously abused here. MR. MARSHALL: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The point is that the Hon. Member for St.

Barbe South asked for the estimates to be withheld while he was out of town. He was out of town approximately a bit over a we~k I believe. We had intended to bring Education in. I would not have mentioned this but for the fact that the Hon. Member for White Bay South has gotten up in this House and accused us of attempting to hide the estimates of the Department of Education because they did not come up in order. 6325

May 16, 1974 Tape no. 1654 Page 10 The fact of the matter is that we deferred them for the Hon. Member for St. Barbe North. We are not going to sit here and take 6326

May 16, 1974 Tape 1655 (Afternoon) PK - 1 his barbs ,.nd his jives when we have done something at the request of the other side and we will honour any agreement at any time but they are now attempting to turn against us publicly, in a very partisan fashion. The fact of the matter, on this particular matter,is that the Member for St. Barbe North we have acceded to him, as we always do in a spirit of co-operation.

He was out for approximately one-half of the time of the estimates and we are not going to have one of the members on the other side getting up here and trying to use these things for their own advantage.Now that is the situation, the same as the honourable Member for St. Barbe - HR. W. N'.ROWE: Since my name has been brought into it, Sir, on a •mint of order. We should make it clear ~,hat is at issue here. Let us make sure t 11at we have the th:lng actually correct.

During my remarks I alluded to the fact that the !leJlartment of Education was the most important denartment and that it should have been called the first or among the first of all, with all of the other important departments. The argument, the fact that the honoural,le Member for St. Barbe Nort}i might have been out for a week, the estimates went on for many weeks and the House Leader refused to call the department.

So they cannot drag this red herring, Sir, through this and use a gentleman's agreement,in the mouth of the honourable !-'ember for Bonavista South, to use it as a piece of partisan political prooaganda, to try and undermine his gentleman's agreement which should have never been referred to anyway public, Si.r. It is a condemnation of the government opposite that th~y have used a gentleman's private agreement, made behind the Chair, Sir, to try and embarrass the Member for St. Barbe North. MR. SPEAKF,R (DUNPHY) : If I may rule on the points of order. I have heard so many points of order, I am dizzy.

There is a point of order that was raised,whether or not the honourable gentleman for Bonavista South was misleading the House. It is the opinion of the Chair that he was stating a matter of fact or of opinion. Whatever the circumstances surrounding the absence of the honourable Member for St. Barbe South,that is relevant and he was stating a fact and 6327

May 16, 1974 Tape 1655 (Afternoon) PK - 2 therefore in order. The honourable Member for Bonavista South, MR, J. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Sneaker. In continuing the point I was making that the honourable ~ember for White " Bay South stood and condemned the government for not bringing Education before the House, yet his own colleague had requested the government to hold hack the estimates on education. So that is the kind of hypacrisy we have being listening to from the opposition all through the debate on the estimates.

To snend twenty hours on one heading, the minister's salary. i.e, the Minister of Rural Develonment, another twenty hours on the salary of the Hinister of Finance, forty hours on two headings of estimates with all the millions of dollars ·that we discussed in the estimates is completely irresponsibility on the part of any onnosition, in any House of Commons or House of Assembly in this country.

To spend forty hours in trying to casti.<>ate the individual character of a mem1.Jer of the House of Asset·bly that was the name of the game not to debate the spendings of government, not to find out the information they need for the neople of Newfoundland to know. Then they go out to the media and say, "Oh, the government are muzzling us. They will only allow seventy-five hours for debate, ..

After the opposition using fortv hours of the same seventy-five on two headings of estimates, to listen to the hynocrisv of the honourable Member for White Bay South again, in condemning the Department of Pural Develonment and the Minister of Rural Development, when that same man was the very individual who was Minister of the Department of Community and Social Development, who brought in the experts from the Mainland, brought them in as the so-called planners,the great succe·ssors, the great visionaries of the planning world, brought them in to resettle, to destroy approximately 400 to 500 communities in Newfoundland.

That same minister stood in this session and condemned the Minister of Rural Development because we were giving out loans and grants to rural Newfoundland. 6328

May Hi, 1974 Tape 1655 (Afternoon) PK - 3 There has not been one constructive positive word from the opposition all during the last two week or three weeks of debate. No individual in this province can tell me that there are not good things in this budget. Nobody can take this document and look it over and say "No, the Progressive Conservative Government of Newfoundland are not doing anything for the province.,. It might seen partisan coming from me as a backbencher on the government side hut the opposition must also he responsible.

Surely they can point out the things that are being done by this that are good for Newfoundland and maybe elaborate more on them,what can he done to improve them. But no it is not that. They want to stand in the House and destroy, destroy and destroy, not only to destroy government policy hut destroy characters and to attempt to destroy individual members of the House of Assembly characterwise. opposition is irresponsible. That kind of Then to have the Hon.

Leader of the Onnosition, unfortunatelv I have to refer "to Mm in the hudp;et debate, I may not p.et a chance to do it again, unfortunately he is not in the House today.

Rut to have an individual who is poing out across the Province of Newfoundland trying to sway the individual voters in his direction, to become Prel'!ier of this nrovince, to have that same indtvidual hoth stand in the House of Assembly and out to the media,to all of the people of Newfoundland,advocating, for example, here is one of the statements: 'Opposition Leader, Edward Roberts,urge government to reopen the contracts with teachers, with firemen, with hospital wor1'ers and others paid from the public chest.·· Mr.

Roberts goes on to say, 'That if government do not reopen contracts right now, the Minister of Finance, the Honourable nr. Crosbie, will be faced with the most turbulent rides in his political career." That is a statement from a man who is going out trying to be the Premier of the province. That is on one day. The next day he stands in this House of Assembly and condemns the government for increasing taxes to bring in a revenue of $14 million 6329

May 16, 1974 Tape 1655 (Afternoon) PK - 4 The third day he stands in the House of Assemhly and says, •·we want the services. We Want the new hospitals. We want roads paved. We want water and sewerage here and water and sewerage there.• He wants all of these things 1 but they do not want to have anv increase in taxation.' They want to reopen all the contracts and give higher wages to all the people who are paid from the public chest but they do not want an increase in taxes. All we are doin11: is increasing one cent in the sales tax and four per cent in the inco~e tax. Hr. Speaker, the hypocrisy is tremendous.

And as long as we have opposition in this Assembly of that nature, unfortunately the people of the province are going to suffer,because I am a firm believer in the two party system, a firm believer in that. I thin~ an opposition in the House of Assembly with maybe five or ten seats less than government, providing they are responsible and a sensible opposition, is good. It is good government. We have what? Nine members on the opposition side? And the only responsible opposition coming from the other side of the House of Assembly is not the official opposition.

I said this before nublicly and I will say it now in the House of Assembly; the only responsible opposition is coming from the New Labrador Party, in the person of the honourable Member for Labrador South. It is the only responsible opposition. I think it is shameful and digusting on the nart of the official Liberal Onposition to carry on in this manner. I feel confident that as long as the Hon. Leader of the Opposition continues on in this manner the people of the province will not only reject him but the people in his own oarty are going to reject him. They are going to reject him this fall.

Of course, it may be good news to some of his honourable colleagues on the other side of the House. It may be indeed welcoming news to the honourable Member for Bell Island, if his colleagues and in the House of Assembly and his friends in the Liberal Party are going to oust the present Leader. It may be also be good news to the honourable Member for Hermitage and maybe Mr. Jamieson, maybe Mr. Stirli~g and others,but that is not a point that I am going to be elaborating on in this debate. Personally I do not care too much 6330

Yay 16, 1974 Taoe 1655 (Afternoon) PK - 5 who becomes leader of the Liberal Party but I do care about the fact that we have not got responsible opposition to govern in the House of Assembly. I think every government should have a strong opposition to point out the flaws and the failures of government and to bring in some responsible, constructive viewpo1nts on government oolicy,but unfortunatelv we have not got that in this House of Assembly. So, ~1r.

Speaker, the honourable }.{ember for Bell Island, the other night in speaking on this same debate,was mainly critical of government because of the fact that durini the past two years we have done nothing to establish industry and to create jobs. He had great praise, great praise for his former Leader and could be his next Leader 1n his party: I forgot to mention that honourable gentleman who is working behind the scenes. AN HON. M'EMBER: !IR. MORGAN: lnaudihle. So, Mr. Speaker, he failed to mention. Sure, we all have praise for the Hon. Mr.

Smallwood in his work in bringing about Confederation,but to stand and to throw great praises on the man who had so many failures and a man who gave away the resources of this province in such a manner that it takes many heads and brains on this side of the 11:overnment, on th:ls side of the Honse of Assembly,at this time to try and p.et hack the resources that belong to Newfoundland and to Newfoundlanders.

There is no mention of the fact of his failures, of the shoe factory and the glove factory and tie rubber factory, cement factory, a battery plant,the steel nlant and go on down the line, t~e light bulb factory, Bison Brewery, Sea ~ining over in the St.' George's Area, the birch plant. You could stand there for hours literally and go on with a list of the great industralized Newfoundland that the former Leader and the former government Leader was advocating for this province. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

MORGAN: What is the point of this government going out on the same kind of tangent, wild tangents without any previous planning and 6331

May 16, 1974 Tane 1655 (Afternoon) PK - 6 feasibility studies, going out and grabbing the great promoters like John Doyle and others and bring:lng them in and saying: "Here, boy, here take this. I have a big concession in Labrador. Here are 10,000 square miles of timber rights or mineral concessions. C:reate .1 ohs for us. It does not matter what we p:ive you. We will give you lots. It does not matter how much it costs the Newfoundland neonle in the long run." AN RON. }'E}'IBER : Inaudible. >.fR. MORGAN: 'All we want is development.

Desnite the cost to Newfoundland and to Newfoundlanders,all we want is development. " That was the attitude, dr-velop or nerish,of the previous government. That is not the attitude of this government. It is not poing to be. If it were, here is one backbencher who should not be staneling un nraising this government, he shou!CI not be standing up condemning this government. I am not the kind of individual member who will stand in this House of Assembly - as I said time and time again before - and hean praises on a government that does not deserve nraises.

I have often criticized government where I felt criticism was justified and I will do it again. I might be labelled as a mavrick or an out­ spoken member but I intend to do it again,but right now I have no reason but t _o heap praises on this government. I feel the government are doing a good job. lf I did not think so, I should not say so, Surely it would not take too much courage or stamina like the honourable Member for Hermitage, an intelli~ent-type individual who could also stand and reco{?1lize the fact that the government are doing -ood things for the nrovince,but he failed to do that. I wonder why?

Anything good that the government are doing they want to destrov, tear it down. Mr. Speaker, it is not going to nrove anything bv making fools of themselves. If the honourable gentleman should want a debate in that direction, I shall debate him. ?rr, Speaker, the honourable gentleman has stood on every point brought before the House of Assembly, he has stood up and made a complete fool of himself,knowing or without knowing that his own 6332

May 16, 1974 Tape 1~55 (Afternoon) PK - 7 leader, instead of him standing up and dehating the estimates,which· he has not done, The Hon. Leader of the Onposition has said very little during the estimates of this House of Assemhlv, 1n this session, very little has he said The reason why is because the Hon. Leader of the Opposition is nusbin~ forward the honourahle Member for Bell Island to stand un, He stood up on every estimate, on every headinp. and he knPW in many cases he was not knowledgeable enough,none whatsoever,regarding what he was talking ahout,hut he ramhled on and on and on.

He attempted every way possible to grab headlines. The headlines that went out to me, 1 am sure the Hon. Leader of the Opposition was quite happy about :It 'because what it :aeant,Mr. Speaker, was the fact that here is a man who is dreaming , dreaming in his own way that one of these days he is going to become Leader of the Liberal Party. He is dreaming that and as long as he keeps on dreaming that,the Hon.

Leader of the Opposition fs going to, the honourable Member for White Bay North is going to nermit the honourable Member for Bell Island to go ahead in the House of Assembly, speak on anything he want:$, speak on evervthing that comes forward, ' 1 I will not say anvthing. You go ahead and do it, make a complete fool of yourself." Then he will be quite «ware and have confidence that the honourable ~ember for Bell Island is in no way r,oing to hecome Leader of the Liberal Partv. AN HON. MEMBER : Inaudible. ]-IF.

MORr.AN: So the honourable Member for Bell Island,without knowing it, maybe without knowinp.; it, I think it is without knowin!( it,he is really a tool of the Liheral Party. He is being used as a tool for the Liberal Party. MR. R. SIM-IONS: Mr. Speaker, on anoint of order. I have heard the honoura~le Member for Bonavista South for some time. Even allowing for the extra latitude in the Budget debate,I believe he is tak~ng liberities that he ought not to be allowed to take. I would appeal to you to ask him to be more relevant to the matter of the budget under debate. 6333

May Hi, 1974 Tape 1655 (Afternoon) PK - 8 :MR. NEARY: No wonder the House Leader says he can make a fool of himself if he wish. MR. SPEAKER: The rule of relevancy of course is a difficult one to making a ruling on. I must admit that I do not think the Honourable Member for Bonavista South is being as relevant as he should be to the Budget debate. MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, thank you for your ruling, but the point I am getting at is a point that and the fact is during the estimates, the debate of the estimates of this budget,that the most we have heard from is from one individual member of the House of Assembly,that individual being the honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. S Il!I-IONS : On a Point of order, Mr. Speaker. As I understood Your Honour has just ruled on the matter of relevancy and asked the Member for Bonavista South to be more relevant,and he is now persisting along the same lines as he was prior to your ruling.

I would suggest you ask him to be more relevant and more respectful of the Chair. MR. MORGAN: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista South. MR. MORGAN: On that point of order. The point I am making is that I am discussing what was said during the debate on the estimates and the estimates are directly relevant to the budget itself. I am discussing the points brought forward by individual members on the estimates of the budget. MR. SPEAKER : The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, to that point of order, Sir. In the absence of the Premier,! wonder if the Government House Leader could discipline members, such as the Member for Bonavista South, Sir? MR. EVANS: I 'WOuld throw him through the ninth story window and that would be - MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the honourable Member for Bell Island, why did he stand and make such a stupid remark? Is he making a point of 6334

~lay 16, 1974 Tape 1695 (Afternoon) PK - 9 order? Or is he accustomed to doing this? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Let me repeat what I just previously said a few minutes ago with regards to the rule of relevancy of which I am sure the honourable Hember for Bonavista is well aware. 1-!R. MORGAN: Thank you, ~1r. Spea!<er. Thank you. "r. Speaker, if an honourahle member of the House of Assembly were only going to be in this House because he wants to be there for his o,m benefit,he should not be here.

If he were not going to stand ~nd speak sincerely for his constituents or speak sincerely for the people of the province,let him not be in this House of Assembly-that includes the honourable }lpmber for White Bay South. ~N HON. ~BER: Inaudible. :_~~_RQAN: 'fr. Sneaker, if I be allowed to be heard in silence, I shall continue. There is no point in elaboratinP- on this tremendous rlocument. There is no point because this would be,to scrutini~e this document and scrutinize the estimates,should have been and would have been if they acted responsibly the resnonsibil1ty of the opnosition­ but they did not do that.

So this vear for the first time of the history of ~1ewfoundland we are spending all these millions of dollars in different departmePts and because we have not a responsible opposition, we di.d not havP responsible debate on the various government departments. Because irrespective of what the opposition said and how they attempted to destroy the p:overnment programmes and p,overnment pol i cv, there i.s one point that was never mentioned, I do not think it was mentioned by any member in the House of Assemblv, I do not think even the Hon. Minister of Finance mentioned it.

Just by reading over the budJ?;et he might have mentioned it and it went unnoticed that last year,in 1973, the financial year 1973, 6335

May 16, 1974. Tape 1656 RH - 1 t'his government, the Progressive Conservative Government, was given the authority to borrow $209 million. That was the original approval and the original estimates for government to go out last year and borrow $209 million. Instead they only borrowed $157 million. Now can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, the previous government, the spendthrift govern­ ment, the wasteful,spending government, can you imagine them, let alone asking permission to borrow, but after getting permission to borrow $200 million and only borrowing $150 million, that would have never happened.

That is a prime example to me as a backbencher, a prime ex2mple that this government is a government that is controlling and managing the finances of this Province in a proper way. As long as we have a government that is managing the finances of this Province - we all know, the public of Newfoundland know that we are managing our resources properly. We are managing our forestry properly. We are developing and managing our fishery;provided we get the co-operation from the federal boys in Ottawa,which is highly unlikely. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

MORGAN: "There are no roads being done •11 Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation in standing here today and stating that this year in Bonavista South that there will be more road work done this year in Bonavista South,in my district,than was done in any five years combined. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MORGAN: More money, Mr. Speaker, spent on roads than any five years prior. That is an example that there is no services, there is no money from government·?

There is going to be a new hospital built in Bonavista, irrespective of the criticisms made by the opposition and "The people do not want the hospital down there" and all of this. There is going to be a thirty-five bed hospital and the plan of the previous government, Mr. Speaker, was to build a clinic,"Close out the cottage hospital, we will give you a clinic." That was the plan of the Department of Health when the present Leader of the Opposition was minister. 6336

May 16, 1974. Tape 1656 RH - 2 That was the official plan of government. It is on the record downstairs in the Department of Health, It is there for anybody to see, It was the offical plan of the Liberal Government who sold out the Bonavista Peninsula, sold out completely. "We are going to close down your cottage hospital and give you a clinic." Well, this government is going to give them a hospital. They deserve a hospital, They are going to get it this year. That is the kind of services this government is putting out. Forest access roads, a substantial programme last year in my district.

This year it will even be more than last year on the construction of forest access roads. That is the kind of thing this government is doing in my district, not only in my district but in the Green Bay district and Trinity North and all the rural districts, Trinity South. That is the kind of programme and services this government is putting out. No, the opposition members do not want to recognize it. they fail to recognize it because they refuse to recognize it.

As long as that attitude continues and as long as they want to tear down like the y tried - It really hurt me here during the debate on the estimates as I sat here behind a minister who is sincere in doing his work and I sat here and watched, he is a fairly new member of government the same as myself, elected in the last election, who is sincere in doing his work , who works hard in his department, travels the Province extensively.trying to help rural Newfoundlanders and I saw the honourable member for Bell Island and I would have overlooked the honourable member for Bell Island if I thought maybe he respected him,but I saw the honourable member from Hermitage and the honourable member from White Bay South and then his colleague. the Leader of the Opposition also stand up and try to tear apart the character of that man, trying to create a conflict of interest which was not really there.

It was not there. It was proven it was not there. MR. SIMMONS: Mr . Speaker, on a point of order. The member for Bonavista South can voice his opinion on any subject he wants to and I am prepared to sit here and listen to him or turn him off but when he begins assigning motives to why I question some matters going on in the Department of Rural 6337

May 16, 1974. Tape 1656 RH - 3 Development, well that is quite another matter on which I would like to have something to say. At no time, Mr. Speaker, did I attempt to cast any aspersions on the minister personally? If he cannot take the heat he can get out of the kitchen. On the point of order, I would ask you to have the Member for Bonavista South retract that statement in which he assigns motives to members on this side. MR. MJRGAN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. , MR. MORGAN: Will he sit down when somebody else is talking.

It is about time he learned the rules of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. It is in my opinion, I said, and I will say it again, it is in my opinion that the honourable members I mentioned on the opposite side of the House of Assembly did try to castigate the character of the Minister of Rural Development and also tried'to create a conflict of interest which really was not there. MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Sir.

I submit, Your Honour, and I second the point of order my colleague made here, Sir, because I was one of the members who were named,that we proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that the minister was in conflict of interest. Sir, there were no ulterior motives. We had the proof. We had the evidence. We stated the facts. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Can I speak to the point of order, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island is debating the point of order. MR.

NEARY: If the member were questioning our motive, Sir, our motive was to expose the situation to the people of Newfoundland,and we did our duty as members of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The point of order raised QY the honourable member for Hermitage,in the opinion of the Chair,is really a difference of opinion between two honourable members. MR. KJR.GAN: That ruling shot down the opposition side. Learn the rules of the House. 6338

May 16, 1974. Tape 1656 RH - 4 MR. SIMMONS: To that point of order and perhaps a matter of clarification too: Do I understand that it is okay for members to assign motives to other members of the House? Is that fair ball now? MR. MARSHALL: Mr.. Speaker, this is a serious point of order. Your Honour has made a ruling and the honourable member for Hermitage should understand that when you make a ruling from the Chair he has a recourse to appeal it but we cannot tolerate in this House debating, continual debating of Your Honour's rulings or asking questions with respect to them. MR.

SPEAKER: I am sure th~t the honourable member for Hermitage is a~are that there is a procedure to follow if he were not satisfied with a ruling that is made by the Chair- I certainly do not intend to let any member on any side of the honourable House debate a ruling that the Chair has made. MR. SIMMONS: In view of my strong feelings on this,one because I did hear the member for Bonavista South assign motives to us, in view of that I would like to appeal your ruling, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. The motion is that the Speaker's ruling be sustained. Those in favour "aye", those against "nay". MR.

SPEAKER: In my opinion the "ayes" have it. MR. MORGAN: To get back to the same topic where I was so rudely interrupted by the opposition, it is that the opposition chose to do this without choosing to debate - they chose to cast the inference on the member from Trinity South, the honourable Minister of Rural Development. They chose to take twenty hours of debate in this Assembly to try to cast the inference to the public of Newfoundland that this man here is in a conflict of interest.

"He is only there for one reason - to build up his contract business, his construction business." I sat here and I reall,y cringed to listen to responsible individuals in government, so-called responsible individuals, to listen to that kind of trash when they could have spent the same twenty hours. Sure they want to condemn the programme. They did. We on this side 6339

May 16, 1974, Tape 1656 RH - 5 defended the programme. They chose to take at least twenty hours of the estimates of the budget in this Assembly this year to try to destroy the character of this man. MR. SIMMONS: I quite agree.as does the member for Bonavista South, with the member when he states that we said we felt it was perhaps the prime purpose of the Minister of Rural Development,and you heard the rest of the statements from the met11ber for Bonavista South but I object and I would like to have a ruling on this. I object again to his saying that we were trying to destroy the character of the minister.

That was not my motive. He is assigning motives which were not mine and I ask you to have him retract that statement. MR. W. ROWE: On that point of order, Sir. I must say, Sir, I did not get up the first time,although my name was used by the honourable member in his speech,but this time he has done it again. I must protest as well, by using the point of order to say, Sir, that the honourable member is not allowed to do two things.

(1) He is not allowed to assign motives to members for what they do, ulterior motives.

(2) As Beauchesne shows, he cannot impugn our honour as members of this House, Now, if he says, as he has said,that we have tried to show that the minister was in a conflict of interest situation. That is a statement of opinion and fact by him. That is okay but when he says that we tried to destroy the character of this man or destroyed his character, Sir, that is assigning ulterior motives to members of this House. Surely that cannot go undisciplined by Your Honour. Otherwise Your Honour knows what the House of Assembly is going :to become. MR. HORGAN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

The point I am making and I will make it again in this point of order is that the opposition, by doing what they were doing, by casting the inference of conflict of interest, they were,indirectly or directly, I would say indirectly destroying the character of an individual. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: He did not say that. MR. K>RGAN: That is what I said prior. So why all of the points of order? MR. NEARY: Sir, we were merely doing our duty as members of this 6340

May 16, 1974. Tape 1656 RH - 6 honourable House, exposing evidence to the public. Sir, we brought documented evidence into this House, Sir, exposed it to the people of Newfoundland?that gave all the appearance of conflict of interest. That was our right and our duty to do that, Sir. We had no choice. If we did not, Sir, we should not be members of this honourable House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The honourable member for Bell Island is again attempting to debate a point of order and did not state what his objections to the point of order were.

In the first instance I ruled that the honourable member for Bonavista South, that it was a matter of opinion between two honourable members,although as he continued his speech I feel that he was on the verge of inferring that members of the opposition were deliberately trying to destroy the character of the honourable member~and I would caution him. MR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If I did say deliberately trying to destroy the character,! withdraw that but I will say they were attempting to destroy the character. In my opinion they were doing that.

They spent twenty hours in doing it and wasting the time of this honourable House. Now getting back to irresponsible opposition , because if you want to tie indirectly to the good things in this budget and the bad things, there could be some bad things. MR. NEARY: Is his time up yet,Your Honour? How many more minutes does he have? MR. SPEAKER: Five minutes. MR. NEARY: Five minutes more. Very good, Sir. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, if we are going to have responsible - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, am I going to be heard in silence? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, we have had more interruptions in this · Assembly this year by irresponsible characters who do not even stand on their feet when they want to speak. So I would request right now to at least be heard in silence. 6341

May 17, 1974. Tape 1656 RH - 7 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: I have not stood one-quarter of the time, Mr. Speaker, in this House that the honourable member for Bell Island has. I venture that I have said more in five minutes that he has said in twenty hours. At least I do not say the same thing over and over and over again. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: It seems to be hitting a sore point, Mr. Speaker, on the other side of the House.because I believe in calling a spade a spade.

I heard the member from Labrador North speak on the budget and some estimates and I said to myself,individually, "Here is a man who is sincerely concerned for Labrador,'' But yesterday evening when that same individual stood to speak iri the budget debate, he stood in the House of Assembly and advocated anarchy in Labrador. He did so. He did so without any hesitation. He stood in the House of Assembly and advocated anarchy in Labrador. Yet that same honourable gentleman was with the previous Liberal administration as Minister for Labrador Affairs.

His colleague, the honourable member for Fogo,was also a minister of that Liberal administration for the same responsibility, Labrador Affairs,and he stands in the House of Assembly and advocates anarchy, nothing short of that. So that is another example of irresponsibility from opposition spokesmen. The only honourable gentlemen in the opposition who when they say anything they mean what they say and they say something that really means something are the honourable gentleman from Twillingate and the honourable gentleman from Fogo, these two individuals.

I repeat,the only responsible opposition we have had in this session to government is the New Labrador Party. I think it is regretful because if this situation were allowed to continue, Mr. Speaker, we shall have a situation in the next year where government will have absolute control,and government should never have absolute control, should always be a strong two-party system. 6342

May 17, 1974. Tape 1656 RH - 8 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to interrupt the honourable member. Except by leave, his forty-five minutes have expired. The honourable member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would certainly like to have a few things to say on this budget speech debate. Mr. Speaker, I too, with my colleague from White Bay South, certainly would first of all like to record my deep regret that we never heard at all from a number of important departments. We have heard various reasons to why this was not done.

We have heard about how the opposition has wasted time and that kind of thing. Someone has suggested, I believe the member for Bonavista South, that seventy-five hours was adequate. I understand, indeed once since Confederation, once in twenty-five years or so, has there been a need for more than seventy-five hours or have more than seventy-five hours been used. Well, of course, that is for a couple of reasons.

One of the reasons being that except in 1971 when a number of the Liberal members crossed the floor to join the opposition, except in that year there was never much of an effective opposition from Confederation period of 1949 until 1970 anyway. So I am not surprised that it did take very long because there was nobody there to put the questions. In the absence of questions.we did not have the kind of thing in 1949 and 1950 and 1952 and up to 1960 and 1970, we did not have the kind of spectacle from the ministers of the Crown that we have had in the last few days. The game plan, Mr.

Speaker, changes considerably once the govern­ ment members know there is a time limit. Now, Mr. Speaker, without a time limit the Cabinet ministers have to be concerned about getting their estimates through the House as quickly as possible. They keep their backbenchers from standing up and they go to them in the corridors and say, "Now, do not get up and speak," or "Shut up," or "Be short because we want to get this thinii: over with." · MR. EVANS: The honourable member is dreaming,as usual. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I am making a lot more sense dreaming than the member for Burgeo makes when he is wide awake.

Mr. Speaker, with the imposed time limit, with the gag rule that 6343

May 17, 1974. Tape 1656 RB - 9 the inember for St. John's East sponsored and ran through this House, with that gag rule, the game plan, l was saying, it is quite d_-ifferent. Without the gag rule, without the time limit, the seventy-five hours or whatever number of hours, without that time limit the gaine plan is quite different. The mlniste .mof the Crown get after their backbenchers, get after each other 6344

:May 16, 197 4 Tape No. 1657 to Q'.Ct on uicli it, to scon !'la\·in,; lorw sneeches so we can <>et this thinr. throu~h the House. The til'1e used up hv the !'Overnment side of the !louse in that situation is mini.mal. You do not have the situation, ·1r. Speaker . I cha1leni,:e anybody on che government side co go back chrour.h l'ansard and p.;o bc:ck through the records of the House cluring the past twenty-five years ancl see if you hav e anywher e the spectacle cha t we saw when the ''inister of Transportation would cake an hour and fifteen minu t e,s co ans,,er one question.

If you want to know whv we have eaten up the seventy-five hours and have not ro ne throurh all the der,arcments. there is one reason . AN 110N. 'fE"'lllEP.: Inaudible . 'IF . S t'r-<ONS: ----- - --- ~Ir. Speaker, I tined tJim one day in answering a question frm ~ one of T"V collear.ues, in answer to ch;,t one question lte ~oc ur, and for one hour and fifteen l'linnces he rambled on and as far as I am concerned he has not answered the ouest:ion vet. The Hinister of Finance, twentv hours his estimates were in committee. T would sug!.'esc, 'Ir.

Speaker, that of those twenty hours the '!iniscer of Finance talkecl between ten and twelve of those hours. I\ I 1111N. '!F.M'BEP: Inaudible. MR. SI'NONS: I will check Hansard. Let him check Hansard. - ------ AN HON. "!E:1BER: I did. - -------- not roe the faces strai ght. "r. Speaker, t put it to vou that if there had not been a time limit, the Minister of Finance would never have spent ten hours clowningaround as only he can do.

Ten hours he stood there. off anrl on, I do not mean ten hours in one stretch, but half an hour now, three ~uarters of an hour the next time; he would not have done that had there not been a time limit . I am aware we could have used, Mr. Speaker, the seventy-five hours much more pofitably. I am aware that had there not been a time limit we probably would not have needed any more than seventy-five or ei~hty hours to do the estimates,for the reasons I have just given you, that the ministers would not have made prolonged speeches, filibuster speeches to avoid as many questions on this side as possible.

The backbenchers would not have been up giving filibuster speeches for the same kind of reason. We would have been 6345

May 16, 1974 Tape No. 1657 NM - 2 able to ask the questions on this.side that we ought to ask about education, about fisheries, about forestries. T have heard the exulanations from my colleap.ue, the member for St. Rarbe North,and my friend the Minister of Education, about whv the education estimates were delayed. Two points, Mr. Sneaker, on that~ First of all that exulanation,as my colleague has so well said, eXPlains why the estimates were not called in the first week or so but it does not at all explain why they were not called at all during the entire seventy-five hours. Also, ~r.

Speaker, if it exnlains in some fashion why education was not called early in the game, where is the explanation for not callinp. Health, the second larp.est item of expenditure in the whole budp,et? Where is the exulanation for not callinp. forestry, for not callinp. Fisheries? There is no explanation,and yet there is. My colleap.ue, the member for White Ilay South, gave the explanation.

The exnlanation is that these departments were never intended to ~e called; the word had gone out to the Minister of Finance and to the ~inister of Transportation, kill all the time you can in co11D11ittee so these heads never come before the co11111ittee. There is the explanation. ~r. Speaker, I again want to record my complete dis~ust and my dissatisfaction with the answers we did not get from the Minister of Transportation. Here we are towards the end of }iay, we still do not know what is to be done,unless we listen to announcements from the member for St. Georges who seems to know what is to be done.

The member for St. Barbe South seems to know what is to be done in his district. The member for Bonavista South, he indicated a couple of weeks ago he knew what was going on in his district and yet the minister tells us he does not know. I say he does know, Mr.

Speaker, and I say he abused his function here in committee when he did not tell the House and tell the committee what the road programme is for this particular year and I once again call upon him,to carry out his responsibilities as minister properly by first of all letting the public know w~at is to be done in this particular calendar year ahead of us-not ahead of us anymore, it is · upon us. The construction season is a.bout to begin and here we are not knowing how all these millions of 6346

'~ay 16, 1974 · Tape No. 1657 3 dollars are goinj!. to be spent. It is particularly regrettable that we have not had an opportunity to discuss the education estimates. Not only because of my background in education but also as a concerned citizen with respect to the kind of education svstems we have in the province, I dearly wanted to hear somethinp about the expenditures in educatjon. I had a number of auesti.ons T wanted to ask and I know my colleav.ue. the opoosition spokesman on education.had a number of questions, The memher for St.

Barbe North, I have no douht that he will he addressjng hfmself to a number of the subjects as thev affect the education estimates . But there are just a counle of thin!!S I wanted to say on the subject. have been watching with some interest.as an educator, watching with some interest this vovernment's action insofar as capital funds for education are concerned.

I fully expected as one, with my previous capacity as an admtnistrator in education, a superintendent and havinf" to be concerned about where funds ought to be placed for school construction, limited funds at that, and also in my earlier capacity as editor of a teacher magazine,! had given a voice to the need for increased funds on a number of occasions over the past six or ei.p,ht years. I heard the nontifications and the expressions on the part of the P.C. members who were then in opposition about what they would do if they were. 1n r-overnment.

So I looked forward, I must admit privately, notwithstanding the flar I fly as a nartisan - MR. SI'-1'-lnNS: ~r. Speaker, I look forward to somethinf better, some more money when the P .C. 's came to 1>ower.

Hith the interjection of the member for Green Bay,I should take the opportunity to correct a very false ~taternent which he ~ade in this House some time arc- Inaddressing himself after a petition had been presented by my colleague, the member for White ijav South,in reference to facilities for Westport, the member for Green Bay got up and unabashedly informed the House that the policy of the Green Bay School Roard had been to concentrate on the larger areas in the - "!R. PECKFORD: Point of order, ~r. Speaker. "'!R. SPEAKER: Order please: 6347

>fay 16,, 1974 Tape No. 1657 NM - 4 MR. PECKFORD: Point of order, Mr. Speaker, I do not know what this has to do with the budget, what the honourable member for Hermitage is now bringing up. So I submit, Sir, that it is entirely irrelevant to the present debate that is under discussion in the honourable House. MR. SPEAKER: Order please: I think the point raised by the honourable member for Green Bay is well taken. It is not relevant to the budget debate. itself. NR. SIJ-1MONS: '1r. Speaker, I was not at all discussinf· this. Had I been allowed to pursue my point I think, Mr.

Speaker, you would have seen that it is quite relevant. I was leading into the matter of expenditures, capital expenditures of one board in this province, one I know very well, the Green Bay Integrated School Board. I was going to correct a bit of information because if I just made my statement on the subject it would appear immediately in conflict with the statement the member had made. So I was doing him a kindness by showing that indeed our statements are at variance. They are at variance. His statement was that only the large communities in the district were being looked after, I wonder, Mr. Speaker - MR.

PECKFORD: On a point of order, lt is obvious I tried to let the honourable member for Hermitage go on for some time co find out whether it really is relevant to the budget debate but there is no question in my mind, Mr. Speaker. What the honourable member for Hermitage is trying to do now is to counteract statements that I made a lot earlier, lf he wanted to correct my statements he had ample opportunity before now to do so. ~ffi. SI~f()NS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, it is obvious to me that the member does not want the truth to come out,so I shall withdraw the point. May I continue? MR.

SPEAKER: The ooint raised by the honourable member for Green Bay and as I just mentioned a few minutes ago, ·comments made referring to a petition that was presented in this honourable House some days or weeks ago and any points raised therein bv members is not really relevant,in the Chair's opinion, in this particular one at least, to the budget debate. The honourable 6348

'lay 16, 1974 Tape ifo. 1657 ;<}I - 5 member for Hermitage mav continue. "IR. ST'f'.ln:,:s: '·'r. Speaker, jn the District of r.reen Bay, one that I know extremely well; the e:ii:penditures over the vast year in education have had to be limited, che capital e.xpenditures, because of the limited amounts coming from governments. These expenditures were spent, '!r. Speaker, in a number of small communities. The Commun! ty of '•:ippers Harbour cannot be considerecl . a very large ccml'lunity. ,\ ne1o school was put there. The Community of South Break, a new school was rn11: t}1ere.

The Communicies of Jleaumont and Lon;, lsland, a new school was put there. The Community of lioodscocl:, a new school was out chere. The Ccmmuni ty of Seal Cove, a new school was µut ct ere. The r.ommunity of Pilleys Island, a new sc;hool was put i:here. ' ' r. <;peaker, in those seve" insi:ances, 1 1,ave just cited seven examnles where schools of four rooms or fewer, four roor.s or two room,; were nut in s!'lall co1T1!'1unicies.

I wanted to er.tcr chat into the record because it goes to "1how what a hounl can <lo w1 th limi tecl funds, nntwithstandinP the false scacements to ch~ concrarv that have hePn !'lade hy the membe·r for r.reen Ray on the subjecc. ''r. Speaker, that hoard and all of the other thirty-five boards in this province coulJ have done a lot more had thev had the money. To makP ,ry O(lint, ''r. Sn