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March 11, 1981 Tape No. 275 RA - 1 The House met at 3:00 p.rn Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. G. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. Yesterday I asked the Premier a question concerning the Old Cabot Highway from Little Harbour East to Southern Harbour and the Premier carne back half an hour later with an answer saying that as of 9 o'clock yesterday morning that road was reopened and the people in the community were notified, according to Hansard. I would like to advise the hon.

House as of this morning that road is still closed and either you said wrong information but at least the people in Little Harbour do consider this road still closed as of 9 o'clock this morning. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Misleading the House. Shame! Order, please! I believe it is fair to say that the hon. member does not have a prima facie case of privilege. If anything, he may be dissatisfied with an answer and if so there is a procedure that he may follow in that particular instance. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS. The hon Minister of Development. MR. N.

WINDSOR: I would like to take this opportunity by way of a Ministerial Statement to read to the House for information at the table a texex that has been sent to the Department of Development . from Sir Robert Dick, who was the project manager for Melville Shipping Limited, the prime contractors responsible for the voyage of the M.V.Arctic into Lake Melville, and I quote: " The M.V.Arctic entered the Labrador Sea ice pack 778 .

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 275 RA - 2 MR. N. WINDSOR: on Feb. 25, 1981 and was escorted by CCGS Franklin into Lake Melville. After a one day delay at the entrance to the lake,theAnrtic ~roceeded with the demonstration run to Epinette Point/North West River and with a series of ship performance tests. The ship reached Epinette Point at mid-afternoon ofthe third day (March 1) of transit in the Lake and after overnight stops in the vicinity of Etagnlet and Julia Points en route to Epinett Point several tests were conducted,including four series of level ice speed/power and two series of ship noise tests.

At Epinett Point a series of turning tests were conducted and the ship proceeded back up the broken track to stop overnight at Julia Point. The following day, March 2,the Arctic proceeded to a prearranged point on the Etagnlet Ridge and conducted a ridge ramming test and level ice ramming tests. The final series of manoeuvering and broken channel tests were conducted on the third of March. The test party left the Arctic on the evening of March third leaving some personnel and equipment on board. The ship then left the Lake on Wednesday March 4 and proceeded to the deviation point and off charter.

The ice conditions in the Lake were affected by the mild weather over the previous few weeks. Thicknesses were around 0. 8 to 1. 2 m:teors (greater than normal), ice strength was slightly less and the roughness or rumbling was less than last year. The demonstration run to the area of North 'N'est River was a complete success as were all 'of the tests in the test programme. The programme has answered many questions but has opened some new lines of thought which can be pursued by a similar programme next year~' And that is ~igned R.A. Dick.

As I said,he is the project manager for Melville Shipping Company Limited 7oo ''I .. ..

Yiarch ll, 1981 Tape 276 PK - l MR. N. HINDSOR: Just a couple of additional comments, Mr. Speaker, a note that the .Arctic when she was running, not in ridges,was operating at one to three knots, which was quite satisfactory, and indicates that these types .of ice reinforced cargo vessels can operate under those ice conditions. And as I mentioned in the statement, the telex mentions that ice was about three feet thick.

The Arctic itself was designed for thicknesses probably up to two feet, so she was probably operating in slightly over her designed capacity, nevertheless operated quite satisfactorily without any problems at all. I visited the vessel on Sunday two weeks ago and spent the morning there with the captain and the project manager and some of the scientists and looked at some of the results of their tests. And in speaking with the captain he was quite pleasantly surprised at the performance of the vessel. He had no fear, neither did the shipowners at all for the safety of the vessel or anything of that nature.

She was operating extremely well. And they were quite pleased with the results of the test. I think it proves, Mr. Speaker, quite conclusively that Lake Melville can indeed be kept open as a year-round shipping port, if not for twelve months of the year,certainly eleven months of the year. And I think the voyage of the Arctic HaS certainly an historic occasion. I would like to add as well that although the icebreaker Franklin was there and escorted the ship, she at no time had to assist her in any way. She followed, in fact, behind the Y1.V Arctic 1nd indeed left the ice field thirty-six hours ahead of the M.V.

Arctic. Thank you. 7 81 .. ' 'I ··, .. ,

:·!arch 11 , 1981 SO:lE HO!Il. ME:.fBERS: ='IR . SPEAKER (:.lr. Simms) : Mountains . :·1R. WARREN: Tape 276 PK - 2 near, hear! The hon . member for Torngat Yes, ~lr . Speaker, I would say this is probably an ope .ning for navigation year-round probably in Lake ~!elville, im:o Happy Valley/Goose 3ay A.,d I hope ~vith these indications that the govern.rnent can see fit to bring some stabilized industry into the area . However, I want to point out a couple of things .

And number one is that we must realize that las~ •vL'lter when the icebreaker Franklin , and this year when the motor vessel Arctic went into Lake Melville , it •.vas t~.;o of the least severe Winters for ti'le last =ifteen Winters . So these two past two Win ~ers are the least severe, and the thickness of the ice in the Lake in the last two \'linters has not been near as great as it ~<~as in the 1950s and tl\e early 1960s. So if there is any indication that our weather is going to be less severe from now on ,I would think probably Lake ~elville will be open up .

But there is a concern that we could have very severe Winters in the fut:ure, and the motor vessel Arctic,which is only capable of probably two or three feet, there may be some trouble . So I do no~ want to see expectations rise too high by the people in Lake ~'l elville area and Eap;?y Valley/Goose Bay because there could be Winters that they will not be navigation open . :-1R. SPEAKEa : Further statements? 732 ,.~ ''I .. .., •·,

March 11, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Tape 277 EC - 1 ORAL QUE:STIONS The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. the Premier, Sir, and it has to do with a matter that we raised last Fall and it has been raised on a number of occasions since by Mobil Oil. As hon. members know, as the Financial Post said recently, Hibernia will probably bring the energy war to a head. Would the hon. gentleman indicate if Mobil have yet presented their production plans either to the provincial government or to the federal government?

And if so, would the hon. gentleman tell the House when these plans have been presented or when they will be presented? MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Energy (~1r. Barry) could answer that question in a lot more detail than I can. Just let me say that while Hibernia is important, we consider the fishery of this Province to be perhaps more important, not only in the short-term but for sure in the long-term and we would appreciate receiving a lot more auestions on the fishery than has been the Opposition's want in the last couple of weeks.

Secondly, the process by which oil companies offshore present their various proposals to government is outlined in our regulations and therefore there has to be a development plan submitted and public hearings held on various aspects of it. Of course, that development plan has not been submitted to date. Further information on that particular matter can be given by the Minister of Energy. 7GJ "'I •. I .., .. I

March 11, 1981 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER(Simms): member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Tape 277 EC - 2 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Mr. Speaker, I realize the fishery is a very important matter in this Province, probably our most basic indqstry, but this government have not seen fit to pay very much attention to it. All they can think about is oil and gas.

I would like to ask the hon. the Premier if in the event that the federal government receives Mobil's detailed plans for production and the federal government approves their plans for production, can they then go ahead and start producing oil, hauling the oil away from the well head without any reference? If this Province does not approve the production plans,can they start producing oil under a federal permit and ignore the Province altoge"ther? at. That is the point I am getting MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Two points, Mr. Speaker.

I wrote the Leader of the Opposition, the Leader of the Liberal Party in December about the fishery of Newfoundland and I am still waiting for an answer, so we will see who, in fact, has the most interest of the fishermen of this Province at heart. Secondly, of course not. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han . the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this government is so interested in the fishery that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) was invited down to Burnt Islands on Monday for the opening of the fish plant but he djn not see fit to attend. t1R.

MORGAN: Too busy in St. John's. MR. NEARY: Yes, busy in St. John's, alright. That is how interested they are in the fishery. 7B4 ··, .. .. I

March 11, 1981 Tape 277 EC - 3 .. , MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, obviously to the hon. gentleman it is a very touchy subject, he does not intend to give me a very satisfactory answer, But in the .. , .. , 785 ··,

~l ar ch 11, 198 1 Tape No. 278 SD - 1 MR. S. NEARY : process of this controversy that has arisen of whether or not Mobil is going to take one government or the other to court to have the court make a declaratory decision on which set of regulations Mobil will have to follow 1 in the process of that Mr. Ed Barrow, I think it was, Vice PLeS~uent of Exploration and Production for Mobil in Calgary, stated last week that oil would be fed to a floating storage facility on site with tankers taking it to whatever Canadian refinery needs crude, That means that there will be no pipeline.

What Mobil is saying is there will be no pipeline corning into shore to bring the oil in. What does the hon. gentleman have to say about that? Can they do that? Can they load the oil, take it away under a federal permit even though the Province may object? How do we protect our rights,if we indeed have any rights to protect,with statements like this flying around? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) PREMIER PECKFORD : The hon. the Premier. This is the whole reason, !·1r. Speaker, and I am very glad that the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) has asked the question,because it gives the government an opportunity to again reiterate its oft quoted position on offshore resources. First let me say, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and all the ministers on the frontbench here and all the members of this House respect this Legislature and this House as being the Legislature and the Parliament of Newfoundland and Labrador, and therefore every time that they have an invitation to go somewhere in the Province it always must be in the context of whether the Legislature is open or not.

And we respect this Chamber and respect this institution and therefore any time we are asked to go other places it must 7JG .. , 'i .. ,

~larch 11, 1981 Tape ~o . 278 so - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: always be in the context L~at t~is is the people 's House and our first obligation is ~o this particular institution while it is op~, . Secondly, let me say di rec tly on the que stion that. the member for LaPoile (Mr . Neary) poses, let it be understood clearly by the member for LaPoile and all members of this hon .

House and to the people of the Province generally that this is the whole reason tvhy this gove~ent takes t~e position ~hat unless ownership ar.d control are vested in the Province the same \va y as if this oil and gas was above the salt 1-1ate r, the se kinds of questions will continue to be posed.~~ therefore moving :rom the premise that we own and control the oil and gas on the Continental s'lelf in t!".e same ~•ay as we o1.;n and control the iro n ore, the le ad and zin c or the trees that are above salt water, i! we move from that premise ~'len the Province of ~e1.rfoundland doe s have the right and po•1er to decide how and when and in wha~ manner oil and ga s will be developed on the continental shelf. ~1R .

NEARY : MR. SPEARER (Simms) : Buchans wish to yield? HR . FLIGHT : :>iR. SPEII.KER: Final supplementary , ~~ - Speaker. I indicated a final supplementary . Does the hon . member :or ~vindsor - I will yield , ~k . Speaker . The hon. member yields . The hon . member for LaPoile . 787 .. .., .. ,

Narch ll, 1981 Tape No. 279 EL - l MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the first part of the answer to my question, it is time for the han. the Premier to get his priorities straightened out,because while he would not let the Minister of Fisheries (J. Morgan) attend the opening of the fish plant, the Minister of Tourism(N. Windsor), I think it is, attended the opening of a winter carn­ ival in Port aux Basques the same night. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I believe the Chair should intervene at this point.

It seems that there has been a bit of a debate about something not to do with the question at all,and I think it is fair to say this is Question Period and maybe the han. member should put his question. MR. NEARY: Not only that, Mr. Speaker, but used the government aircraft the next morning MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - to bring him back to St. John's from the opening of a winter carnival. That is how they get their priorities straight. But what I want to ask the han. gentleman is if he could be a little more specific in this matter of Mobil taking one government or both governments to court.

In the event that this happens, I mean, how do we then protect our rights? Do we send out the Norma and Gladys and the water bombers to protect our rights? If we have any rights, how then are we going to cope with the situation? If Ottawa accepts the production plans and tells Mobil to go ahead and start producing oil, take it away in tankers ,to feed the oil refineries on the 7 Ml ,,, .. I .., ..

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 279 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: Eastern Seaboard of the United States and Canada;then how do we cope with it then? What happens after that? Would the hon. gentleman just give me some idea because I am afraid that we are headed on a disaster course and I want to find out for my own satisfaction how we deal with that kind of situation. How do we protect our rights then? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.Speaker, that is a hypothetical question and given that we have to protect some rights that the Opposition has not made clear, I think the first thing that should be done is for this hon. House to be on side, every member of this legislative assembly representing all the people of Newfoundland to be on side,that we have the ownership and the control of those resources the same way as we do with trees. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREHIER PECKFORD: Let the oil companies know every- where in this world that every single person who represents a district in this legislative assembly, that they are all of the same mind, that this Province owns and controls the oil and gas on the continental Shelf in the same way as if those resources were on land and above salt water. That is the first way to prevent any of those kinds of hypothetical things from happening. That is the first way. Secondly, let me inform the hon. member,if he does not know, the House of Assembly does not open in the night time. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker.

The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans . Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary to the Premier. A month ago; Mr. Darry Little, I think, President of Mobil indicated that they may look at taking - going to the 789 ••

jU, ~-larch 11, 1981 Tape No . 279 EL - 3 ~lR . .FLIGHT: courts, asking the court =or a decision to settle the owner sh ip issue, either fede~al or provincial and that brought strong reaction from the Premier . 3ut Mr . Dorry indicated that if they took that action - Mr . Little indicat ed that if they did indeed take that action it would be sooner and not later . Now, that is a month ago . Is t."le ?remier aware of 1-that Nobil 's position is at this point in ti me with regards to seeking a reference from th e court and determining who owns the 01-mership, federal or provincial.. or the jurisdiction ~ 7SO ... '• , I .. , .. ,

"!arch 11, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) PRE'HER PECKFORD: TaJ?e No. 280 DW - 1 The hon. the Premier . ~r. Speaker, we are in contact with the oil coml?anies on a regular basis, the Minister of Mines and Enerqy (Mr. Barry) is, the Petroleum Directorate and so on. We have heard of Mr. Little's comments before and we are aware of them. There is nothing new to report from what Mr. Little had said previously. MR. G. FLIGHT: But what is his present posi- tion? Is he going to the courts?

PRE"!IER PECKFORD: I have not called him in the last hour or so,but the present position is,one,that they are abiding bv the provincial regulations and they are proceeding with their exploration programmes as they have all along and that is their present position as I under­ stand it. MR. G. FLIGHT: PREMIER PECKFORD: And are they going to court? They have not indicated to the Provincial government, Mr.

Speaker, that they are going to move to court or anything like that? r,Je are still, talking to them and they take certain views on certain ways to explore and develoo the offshore and we take certain other views as to ho~' they want to explore and develop the offshore. We meet with them from time to time. We met with them several weeks ago. I met with them in New York in December. We will be meeting with them again in the next few days and we will talk,just the same as we meet with IOC and talk to them about their plans and 1-le meet with most of the companies around the Province. '~R. G.

FLIGHT: Are you ready to meet them in court with ~ reference? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 751 ..

March 11, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Placentia West. MR. D. HOLLETT: Tape No. 280 DW - 2 The hon. member for Burin - Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) pertaining to his statement yesterday. It goes on to read, 'Provided that the cost of the project'- referring to the proposed St. John's svnchrolift~after tender evaluation is within the economic limit setby CN in the Province'. I would like to ask the minister what is the maximum cost that would be acceptable to CN and the Province for this project? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we have been given a number of times projections as to the cost by the CN Dockvarc and those projections have amounted to about $21.5 million. Now at one time it was a bit greater than that. And the size of the project was reviewed and certain not totally essential aspects to it were eliminated and it brouqht the projection down to that value. This $21.5 million has been deemed or at least decided by CN to make the thing economically viable. 1-IR. D. HOLLETT : MR. SPEAKER: for Burin - Placentia West. MR. D. HOLLETT: A suo plementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hon. member Mr. Speaker, we assume that $21.5 million is a maximum acceptable c o ~t. Another question I would like to ask the minister in the way of clarification. That is referring to the $6.5 million grant - I should re-phrase that. It is not a grant, it is a loan; it is a loan un~il such ~ime as it makes a profit and if ir. i~ not a nr.ofit, of course, then it is a arant. But also I vie~·; with some alarm the statement that we will pay interest 782 '·I .. ,

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March 11, 1981, Tape 281, Page 1 -- apb MR. ·HOLLETT: or are there qualifiers to paying interest during construction? And I assume, Mr. Minister, it is on the total cost during construction. MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): of Finance. DR. COLLINS: The hon. the Minister Mr. Speaker, to make sure that this is understood, the CN Dock will now be putting funds into this.

The original arrangement that they tried to put in place with the federal government was that the federal government, the Department of Public Works, or whatever that department in the federal government is called, would actually construct the dock and CN would buy the dock back or would lease back, would guarantee repayment of something like 65 per cent of the overall cost. Now, they attempted for three-plus years to get the federal government to see this in the light that the whole project would be a viable venture - and CN's projection is that it would be.

Despite their greatest of efforts they could not get the federal government to come across on those terms. The terms that we have put in place with CN is where CN itself would put in a sizeable amount of money towards the capital construction, we would match that - or not match it, but we would add to that $6.5 million by way of a loan which would be repayable out of profits, and at the same time we would ensure that the interest costs to CN would be no greater than they would have faced under the proposal that they first put to the federal government.

We will therefore face a maximum expenditure in terms of interest costs of something like $3 million to $3.5 million. 734 ..I ''I

March 11, 1981, Tape 281, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: Now I think it is necessary to put that into perspective. We are facing _ an expenditure of $3 million to $3.5 million for interest costs for the CN Dock which will ensure the continuation of something like 300 jobs down there, will ensure an additional 150 to 200 jobs there, heavy industrial worker type of jobs, which are very important to the economy not only of the St. John's area but, indeed, to the whole Province. Now, I think you would have to put that against the expenditures that government has incurred to date in terms of the Marystown Shipyard.

I am not quite sure of the work force down there, but I think it is something of the order of what? - 400 to 500 jobs, something in that range. The cost incurred by governmnet to date to ensure that number of workers, which is comparable to the number of workers we are talking about at the CN Dock, has been of the order of $30 million to $35 million, and that is not including certain guarantees that government had to put in place. So the government expenditure, the provincial government expenditure being faced down at the CN Doc~ is miniscule compared to what the government has had to face in terms of Marystown.

It has faced this because it is its responsibility to ensure,to the extent it can, that there is employment and employment of this very desirable nature in the Province, because there are very good spin-offs from that type of employment, spin­ offs that benefit not only the fishing industry but other aspects of the ind~strial base of this Province. We had to face these for Marystown, and we consider that the risks and the expenditures we are facing at the CN Dock compare very, very favourably. We also 7S5 ... ''i ..

March 11, 1981 Tape 282 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: understand, of course, that there will be certain revenues coming to government from the activity at the C.N. dock in terms of retail sales tax, in terms of personal income tax, in terms of corporate income tax. So not even all that $3.5 million will be out-of­ pocket. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HOLLErT: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Burin - Placentia West. HR. HOLLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to assure the minister and all present that at no time have I or anybody in Marystown said other than that we agree that there should be a synchrolift in St. John's,providing that the ones at St. John's and Marystown are both viable. I am sure at a later point we can debate that one. But the minister did not answer my question. I asked in relation to the provincial government paying all interest during construction~ it concerns me as a legislator, Mr.

Speaker, because if that be so, it means that C.N. will not put a nickel into the proposed synchrolift until after the first day of operation, as I read it. And also I ask the minister if there are any provisos in that in relation to the delay in construction through work stoppages, through accidents and otherwise? There could be a very prolonged construction period. And the minister said to me that the interest referred to is the subsidy paid by the Province to the largest, or one of the largest corporations of Canada to stabilize it at 11 per cent.

But is the interest being paid, totally paid by the Province from the day that construction starts until the day it is operational and is this over and above the subsidy on the interest? MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The hon. the Minister of Finance. No, Mr. Speaker, the C.N. will be 7SG .. , ··, "t .,

:·!arch 11, 1981 Tape 282 EC - 2 DR . COLLINS: putting in its share of costs curing construction . In other ~ords, there will be a draw down of provincial monies and there will be a draw down of C.N . monies . The C.N. will, indeed, be putting in monies during the construction .

In terms of interest durin~ construction, that ~~11 be borne by the Province, but the interest on the monies that c .~ . will procure , ~orrow, o= whatever, and will a.onortize over -how many :;ears? - t·.venty years, ?erhaps, in t.~ .eir case , that interest will be borne by C.N. itself , although we will ensure that those interest costs will not be above 11 per cent . No w, we may have to subsidize the interest rate, the future will tell that. Perhap s interest rates will come down belolv ll per cent i:1 future years and we will not have to subsidize.

If they remain above 11 per cent, that is, the interest ra~e on long -term borrowings of C.N. holdings remain above ll per cen~. well , we would have to subsidize . Nith regar cl the Province subsidizing a large corporation, I would like to poin t ou~ that C.N. dock has itsel:' to be a viable operation. Th at: is the struc ture of the C.N. operations, that each division has to be a viable ope ration . That was a decision reached by the federal government in 1978 . ~ve did not reach that decision .

The federal government said to C.N., 'Your vari ous division s, including C .~ . dock , have to make their ow~ way .' So this is not our doi~ g , this is the federal governoent 's doing . 7S7 ,. ,., ,..,

Harch 11, 1981 Tape 283 PK - 1 HR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms): The hon. member for St. Mary's­ The Capes . ~R. HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), Mr. Speaker. As we all know there are some strange regulations in his department and the federal department. \•iell this is a federal regulation

whereas a man building a boat cannot qualify for a subsidy or a bounty on that boat unless he puts a new motor in that boat, and I think it is unfair. I would not mind an old motor, Mr. Speaker, but he cannot even qualify for a bounty if he puts a rebuilt motor with a warranty in that boat. I wonder if the minister has any complaints about this? And if he has 1 could he tell us whether he is going to take it up with the minister in Ottawa? ~ffi. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, it is not in order to ask questions - surely there are matters of concerns that are the responsibility of this ministry. But I refer you to Beauchesne where it says that you are not allowed to ask questions - questions are out of order which deal with an action of a minister for which he is not responsible to Parliament or with matters not within his official knowledge, or raise matters under control of local authorities not responsible to the government or the legislature.

Now I do not know if the hon. minister wishes to answer the question, but the fact of the matter is the question is out of order, Mr. Speaker, and- SGr1E HON. HE!•1BERS: Hear, hear! 783 ··, .. . ..,

March 11, 1981 Tape 283 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: I think our Question Period could be very profitably consummed by asking questions of ministers about matters for which they are responsible. S0~1E HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: !1R. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms) : To the point of order, Hr. Speaker. To the point of order, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: If what the House Leader is saying - that would mean that we cannot speak on federal matters in this House, Mr.

Speaker, that we cannot present, which has been the Practice in the past, petitions aimed at a federal petition which have been presented to ministers of Intergovern­ mental affairs in this House. r1r. Speaker, ministers of this Parliament, this House of Assembly,have counterparts in Ottawa, and we understand that sometimes, Mr. Speaker, sometimes there is some communication between them, and that they are responsible for communication as regards to their departments. MR. t-'l.ARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. To the point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, all I can say is that if there are any questions to be asked about federal policy, I think they could best come from this side of the House to the people who are championing the cause of the federal government. SOME HON. f.'IEMBERS: ~1R. NEARY: Hear, hear! To the point of order, Mr. Speaker . 759 .. , .. ,

~larch 11, 1981 MR . SPEAKER (Mr . Simms) : hon . member for LaPoile . MR . NEARY: Tape 283 PK - 3 To the point of order , the ~tr. Speaker, as Your Honour knows it has been traditional - SOHE RON. ~1E."1BERS : MR . SPE.D.KER: ~L~ . NEARY: Oh, oh! Order, ?lease! - in this House to ask questions of the government on federal matters , especially the one that my hon . colleague just asked , Mr. Speaker .

The question that he asked, my understanding of the phraseology of his question ••as t:his, he asked the Provincial Hinister of Fisheries ()tr . :.!or gan ) if he had received any complaints about this federal policy . And in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, that question is perfectly in order . But the President of the Council (Mr . ~4arsha11), who raised the point of order , has been trying to restrict no;, dei.J ate and discussion in this House for the last couple of years . Jl.nd this is just: another example, Mr. Speaker, of how the government is trying to muzzle tte Opposition in ~~is House .

It is not a point of order . aGO •. ''I .., .. ,

Narch 11, 1981 Tape No. 284 SD - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) ~ Well,with respect to the point of order raised, it is a very legitimate EJOint of order because it does state in Beauchesne that questions asked of the ministry should have something to do witR their particul~r ministrv.

Hm·Tever, there are other sections in Beauchesne that ?Oint out that there are certain limitations on questions that are asked, and there are numerous. of them listed in Beuachesne 1 and I suggest that if e"very one. of those . restrictions were applied in every case, there probably >vould not be that many questions asked in the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: I point out that the question. is technically out of order. If the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) >vants to make a response,I will allow him~ if not, I will ask the member to rephrase his question. SOME HON. MEHBERS: MR.

SPEAKER: MR. MORGA..l\1 : Hear, hear. The hon. Minister of Fisheries. r1r. Speaker, first of all may I say it is rather ironic that the second question asked on fisheries, one of Newfoundland's most important industry, to date in our Province, the second question to date, Mr. Speaker, since the House of Assembly opened. SOME HON. .t-'I.EMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. MORGAN: Yesterday the first m1~stion was,'Would you come to my district, Mr. ~1inister.' Today, a question out of order. Mr. Speaker, it is ironic. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER : Hear, hear. Order, please!

I believe the hon. minister is now beginning to enter into debate,and rather than enter into debate if he wishes to respond to the question I will permit him to do so, otherwise I will ask the hon. member to ask another question. The hon. Minister of Fisheries. 8G1 ''I ''I .. •· J ..,

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 284 SD - 2 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Sueaker, indeed I will answer the question. We have numerous complaints about the regulations put forth by the federal government in Ottawa today.

The regulations in the federal Department of Fisheries on the inshore quotas and the licencing policy for fishermen, on the regulations regarding the subsidies for new fishing vessels and on we go; the complaints that come into my office day in and day out from fishermen's committees, fishermen by galore, in fact, I will go so far as to say thousands of them are complaining about the regulations of the federal Department of Fisheries as it pertains to the management of our fisheries in Ne .wfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. D, HANCOCK : MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: Rear, hear.

Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member This goes to show that you can not get any specifics in this House, Mr. Speaker, because I asked one specific question and the minister made it so broad-ranging that he covered all the complaints that they had. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh ., oh! MR. HANCOCK: 1 want to know about one complaint, Mr. Speaker. I only wanted to find out about one complaint, I could not even get that out of the minister, Mr. Speaker. My supplementary is, what is the overall status of federal/provincial subsidies on boats this year, Mr. Speaker? And I had to include provincial there.

MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, to indeed be serious for a little while in answering that question, it is a very serious matter because just a few days ago we received tJJ2 '1 '·I

~~!c~~ch ll. l9Sl T·ape :;c. 284 SD - 3 :-!R. :!ORG.=\.)1: a ~reclamation fran the federal minister and froffi the federal autho~ities in Ottawa that there ~ill be in 1981 a very substantial reduction in the subsi~ies ~or ~ishing vessels 9aid to fishermen in our ?rovince .. ~nC t~at is of ~ajor conce~n to us because it is ·.:c::-.in~ 2 t. a tirr.e \Vhe::J. f i sherrcle!'lt speaking through the ~i she::-::'Len -.. Union in ?articular, are saying they are unable to carry .. , on a viable O?eration based on the ?resent ?rices for fish and other factors. And now the federal minister has decided ' r i.J ..J j

~arch 11, 1981 Tape No. 285 DW - 1 MR. J. HORGAN : to, in his own \visdom, to cut back on the subsidies to the point where just a few days ago a man from the Great Northern Peninsula, in fact Anchor Point in particular, a 11r. \,enge informed me last night that the sudsidies that were normally 35 oer cent have now heen reduced to 20 8er cent. And that has a very serious effect on the overall fisheries of Newfound- land. ~R. D. HANCOCK: A suoolementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKE~ (Simms): A final supplementary, the hon. member for St. Mary's - The Ca~es . ~- D. HANCOCK: Now, Mr.

Speaker, does this mean that the provincial government now will subsidize the fishermen the same as they did for the svnchrolift in St. John's? SOME HON. ME!V!.BERS: Hear, hear! Good question! MR. SPEAKER: lo!R. J. ~10RGAN: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, first of all, may I say that our policy in this administration is to subsidize every possible way where it means employment to improve the overall economy of any oart of our Province. Por example, a tremendous subsidy oaid to Marystown Shipvard is an example,includina also the subsidv now and the guaranteeing of funds for the St.

John's synchrolift. ~1!< . D . HANCOCK: Answer the question now. MR. J. MORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, we are oresently subsidizing the fishermen of our Province by means of the New­ foundland taxpayers, in this· case, whereby we are subsidizing the interest paid on loans to fishermen who borrow for the purpose of buying new fishing boats or used fishing boats or nei•T fishing equi8ment for their boats. And also we are sub­ sidizing to the point of granting to fishermen the total cost of buying a new vessel a 15 per cent grant, outright grant, called a bounty on fishing vessels. And we feel, and •··e .ceel t.lu4 ..

I .. , .. , ''I .. ,

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 285 D\'1 - 2 :'1 .. !~. J . MORGAN: auite strongl~ that the federal government should maintain their obligation and responsibility . They want and they have now almost total jurisdiction over the fisheries, the~ maintain they want control of it, let them recognize the responsibility and carry it through. SOME HON. ME~ERS: MR. T. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. E. HISCOCK : T'lR. T. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER : Hear, hear! Mr. SJ?eaker. The hon. member for Terra Nova. A supolementarv, ~r. Sneaker. I yield, Mr. S~eaker. - The hon. member for Terra Nova yields for the hon. member for Eagle River. MR.

E. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan).l,Jith regard to the Gear Subsidy Pro- gramme since 1975 on the Labrador coast the deadline for this application is September 30th.,and where most of the fishermen deal with comoanies that are on the Island, in Harbour Grace,Car- bonear,Briqus and other areas by the time they get their receipts back it is probably in November or December, This anplication, in order to get the subsidy,has been returned back to the fisher­ men, several fishermen - ~ore than several fishermen-in my dis- trict because the deadline has not been met.

Can the Minister of Fisheries inform this House now whether the provincial govern- ment will change this arbitrary date and move it up to some- where around January or February? ¥.R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. ?.!R. J. MORGAN: Hr.

Speaker, as it pertains to the fisheries and the fishermen and their oroblems in Labrador I want to assure the hon. crentleman that we will always, ah1ays bend over and acceed to any requests from Labrador fishermen, to do what we can to help them.with regard to a oroblem I men- tioned a couple of days ago in speaking on a petition from fishermen in Labrador, because of the communications problem that we recognize exists in Labrador vlhich is a bit different from most parts of our ~rovince .that we are willing to acceed tJGS ''I .. ,

~·'arch 11, 1981 Tape :-lo . 285 OW - 3 IA.R . J . HORGAN : to a request over and above the status quo, if you want to call it t~at, in fisheries or , in fact, I would all my colleagues have the same o~inion . Ne are willing to go over and above the stat us quo co ~ake sure '"e deal \.ri th the probl em \o~hich we recognize exists, a com ­ munica ti ons pro~lem .

So if that can be subst~~tiated c~at t~ere is a ? roble m in connection \-lith receipts getting back anc forch to different conoanies on the Island portion of the Province I \-;oulc sa y that '.<Je will look at it and considerate it and give it eve ry consideration and ho?e it ca n be resolved to the satis­ factio~ of t~e fishermen on the coast of Labrador . SO~~ HON . M~~ERS : ).4R • SPEAKER ( Si!MlS) : expired . Hear , he ar! Order, please !

The time for Oral Questions has I ~1"Q sure hon . members would like to join me in welcoming to th e galleries today four former Chairmen of the Renew s/Cappahaycen Community Council from the district of Ferryland , Mr . Stan Brazil, Mr . Dan Pittman, Mr . Bill ~ynes and ~. James Bra zil. SONE HON . ME..IIffiERS : "'~ .~ • SPEAKER : '1.'q, . 5 . NEARY : aear , hear ! PRSSE~T!NG PETITIONS The hon . member for ~aPoile. Mr . Speaker, I am also glad to see representatives of NAPE , the Workers ' Compensation 3oard and the College of Trades of Technologv :n the gallery again today .

They have been maintaining a vigil not•T - S0:'1E RON . '1E.'lBERS : ~R . S. NEARY : Hear, hear ! so let us hope that the government ;..rill get the hint, that the messa ge to~ill qet through . ilwG ''I .. .. I ''I ..

"'arch 11, 1981 Tape No. 285 DW - 4 :1R. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have another petition in connection with that proposal that was made by the Tuckamore Wilderness Club in Corner Brook to establish a large wilderness area down on the Southwest coast,especially along the Burgeo road. This petition 0~7 •.• l .. .. I

"'- - c-Iarcl'l. 11 , 1981 Tape No. 286 EL - 1 1-!R. NEJ..RY: is unique, Mr. Speaker, and before I present it I might say that I \vant to congratulate all those who had anything to do with the thought, with the thought that went into this petition because what impresses me so much about the petition is that we hear so much talk these days about young people not being interested in the affairs of the Province and this petition is indeed from the younger set in Grand Bruit. The petition is similar to the ones that have already been presented in this House by the hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir(H.

Andrews) and by my­ se lf. We have already seen, I think it is, five petitions presented in the House in connection with this matter and I hope now that the Minister of Tourism (N. Windsor), or whoever is responsible for this matter 1 will indeed get the message. The prayer of this petition is as follows, Mr. Speaker. "We ,the students of Grand Bruit All Grade School,oppose the wilderness area proposed by the Tuckamore Club of Corner Brook.

We do not like this proposed wilderness area because it is the area we hunt for caribou and moose, fox, mink etc. , kill sal twate .r and freshwater birds since hundreds of years ago. It will affect our livelihood. We would like to have some protection of the caribou herd ex­ tending five miles on each side of the Burgeo highway." And the petition is signed by Jason Billard, Charlene Billard, Keith Billard, Tammy Billard, Brenda Billard, Cathy Billard, Bradley Billard, Larry Billard, Bonita Billard, Denise Billard, Beverly Billard, Todd Billard and Michelle Farrell. Mr.

Speaker, I am so please to ha ve the opportunity to present this petition because,as I said in the beginning, this is a petition circulated by high school tJt.;G .. I . .. ,

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 286 EL - 2 HR. NEARY: students, by students of the All Grade School in Grand Bruit. And it just goes to show how in­ terested they are in the affairs of this Province and I want to congratulate them for having the initiative ,for taking the initiative in having this petition presented here on the floor of the House of Assembly. ~nd I also want to thank their prin­ cipal, Mr. Gerald J. Howell for organizing this petition and having it sent on to me so. that I could make their views known here on the floor of the people's House in the House of Assembly. So, Mr.

Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition and ask that it be placed upon the Table of the House and ref~rred to the department to which it relates. MR. ANDREWS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon.member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. ANDREWS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to support this petition, I think with some reservation. I think there is one mention in there of the five mile corridor on both sides of the Burgeo Road.

The residents of Burgeo and the Ramea area are opposed to any restrictions that would prevent snow­ mobile, wood-cutting and other forms of recreation and activities along the highway.

Although the petition I presented last week on behalf of 600 residents of Burgeo supports the general belief that there should be a greater protection of the wildlife pop­ ulation, and particular the caribou herds,and I believe that can be done by a greater enforcement and a greater amount of pat- rolling by wildlife officials,and the long-term solution being the implementation of an education programme for school students , and it is encouraging to see that these high school students are concerned about the wildlife situation. ~t is a very delicate situation that exists right now on the Burgeo Hiqhway.

The animals are access­ ible. You can see them. I saw them myself just a few weeks ago, i.JG9 •·, ';

~ , :.larch 11, 1981 Tape No . 286 SL - 3 MR . ANDRE\ •lS : just about five or ten miles from ~~e community of Burgeo , one thousand animals when you just walked up a little hill . So it is very temptin g for anybody •·; \.;he has that type of thinking in their mind s. So I support th.ls petition and also the two previous petitions presented along these lir:es . The tv10 previous petitions and this one protest the Tuc karnore Nilde rness Clu .b in Corner arock and their am - bition to establish a major wilderness area . I believe their a~ition is more than excessive, ... , , .. I .. •. i 010

Ylarch 11, 1981 Tape No. 287 RA - 1 MR. H .. '\!.'WRENS: what they call for,and I believe that through better management reqime that this situation can be handled. MR. SPEAKER(Siillrns): The hon. member for ~Vindsor- Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT : Very briefly I would support the petitions,this petition and others presented in the same cause. And there must be some consolation, Mr. Speaker, to the people, to the groups that are presenting these petitions, when you look at this governments performance by way of what they think of wilderness areas. And the consolation must be ,and they can rest assured Mr.

Speaker, that there was a wilderne~s area designated in this Province, but when it became in the better interest of government to rescind that wilder­ ness area,to wipe it out because of a hydro development that was going to take place, the government of the day, Mr.

Speaker, this administration,just with fell swoop of the pen wiped out a wilderness area that existed.And we all know, everyone in Newfoundland interested in wilderness areas knows where that area was, they know the Opposition government got to rescinding or wiping out the wilderness area and declaring it available for any kind of industrial- ization such as the Upper Salmon or what have you. Sc one thing,Mr. Speaker, the people requesting the govern­ ment not to implement or not to bring in a wilderness area, need not worry about.

When it becomes to the better interest of this government to wipe out a wilderness area they will move pretty quickly to wipe it out. MR. SPEAKER: Further petitions. The hon. member for Eagle River;· t.l .. ' .. •·.

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 287 RA - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Capstan Island, Labrador. We have 100 per cent of the residents, adult residents in this community signing this petition. I have presented three other petitions in this House on the same matter and I will be presenting other ones on behalf of the other communities as time goes along.

The prayer the petition reads: " We the residents of the Straits of Labrador from L'Anse-ou-Clair to Red Bay, the community of Capstan Island, call upon the provincial and federal government to put aside their political differences and sit down and negotiate and sign the Coastal Labrador DREE agreement. We,the residents of Southern Labrador,feel that we are be­ ing used as a political football between both governments and we want and end to it. We have been waiting over three years for the signing of this agreement and we cannot go another Spring without having the road reconstructed and paved:' Mr.

Speaker, I support this petition as I have sup­ ported the other ones in the past,and I would like to point out~that the people on the coast are extremely anxious now, because if it is not signed shortly,they feel,that con­ struction season for this year is going to be lost. I have presented petitions like this in the House before and I have asked the Premier if they are going to accept the terms of the DREE agreement.

The Minis~ of Transportation{Mr.Brett) I am ratter surprised by his not knowing anything that is in the agreement and says it is the responsibility of the Minister of Inter­ governmental Affairs, which is the Premier. I hope that this government will continue to press Ottawa and that we will have the signing of this agreement as soon as possible and that we can get on with this work. So, Mr. Speaker, the prayer of this petition I support,and I point out there is 0 l 2 .. ''I .. ''I

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 287 RA - 3 MR. E. HISCOCK: 100 per cent of the residents of Capstan Island are supporting this petition and they feel that this government and the federal government should get down to face-to-face negotiations. We cannot have negot­ iations done in the press,we cannot have negotiations done in confrontation situations, So, Mr. Speaker, I support this petition and I ask that this petition be laid on the table and sent to the appropriate department, governmental Affairs, and the Premier. Thank you. Inter- MR. SPEAKER(Simms): HR. S. NEARY: The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr.

Speaker, I could not let the opportunity go by without supporting the petition so ably presented by my colleague the member for Eagle River. And I am amazed Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Trans­ portation or the Premier,who is also Minister of Inter­ goverfu~ental Affairs,did not see fit to comment on the prayer of this petition.

The prayer of the petition is very simple, it asks the Premier and the minister in the provincial government to put aside their policical dif­ ferences, to put aside their animosity and their war and the bad blood that they have created between this Province and Ottawa and get down to some hard-nosed negotiations and try to sign the Coastal Labrador agreement.

Perhaps the Minister of Transportation could tell the House if in his conversation, his te~ephone conference that he was supposed to have yesterday with the Ministry of T.ransport officials in Ottawa,if this matter came up and if so will he tell us the results of the discussions.tf not,perhaps the Premier could tell us if the matter will be raised in a meeting with Mr. Pepin and Mr. Rompkey that is scheduled tJ ·1 3 .. I '·I ' I

March 11, 1981 Tape 288 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: sometime between March 16th and March 20th, when Mr. Rompkey and Mr. Pepin will visit the Province to discuss the whole package of transportation and transportation priorities with the provincial government. Perhaps the han. gentleman could tell us if they are waiting until that meeting in order to bring about a settlement of their differences so that they can sign the agreement. My understanding, Mr.

Speaker, by the way - and I found this out when I was in Ottawa several weeks ago - is that the Government of Canada have already agreed to pay 90 per cent of the cost of rebuilding this road. It is one of these 90/10 deals, 90 per cent paid for by the Government of Canada, and the only thing that is holding it up is that the provincial government will not tell the government of Canada how much money they intend to spend this fiscal year on that road. That is the only thing as far as Iknow that is holding up the signing of the Coastal Labrador agreement. I support the prayer of the petition, Mr.

Speaker, and I look forward to hearing the comments of the Premier on whether or not this matter is going to be raised at his March 16th - 20th meeting with Mr. Rompkey and Mr. Pepin. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Further petitions? . ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: This being Wednesday, Private Members' Day, we are debating Motion No. 2, the motion moved by the han. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). At the last day's sitting, debate was adjourned by the han. the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett), who has about six minutes remaining. The han. the member for St. Barbe. 0 j 4 ., ''I

March 11, 1981 Tape 288 EC - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BENNETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I was speaking in support of the Resolution asking this government to select a committee, in other words, to strike a Select Committee to study the high cost of living in this Province. I would,first of all. like to ask, Mr. Speaker, who is most affect ed in this Province by the high cost of living? Are we ourselves affected in this House of Assembly by the high cost of living? Are the doctors and the lawyers, the $100,000 a year business people? Are we affected, Mr. Speaker, by the high cost of living?

Do we ourselves have any compassion re the high cost of living? Are we going to support this bill on the high cost of living? I bet you, Mr. Speaker, dollars to donuts that the government of today will not support that Resolution. We will vote for it and they will vote against it. Now, the people who are most affected by the high cost of living in the Province, Mr. Soeaker, are low-income pe~ple and young people, social recipient people, young people especially, who are trying to get an education forthemselves. The high cost of living affects these low-income people, the struggling masses.

Let us not forget, let us remind the government of today and, indeed, the Opposition that you are supported and placed in this House of Assembly by the masses. And, ~r. Speaker, it is the masses who are suffering because of the high cost of living. The man whose income is $20,000, $50,000, $100,000 a year, the high cost of living has very little ill effect on the person whose income is already in the $50,000 bracket . It mig ht mean, Mr. Speaker, one less trip to Florida or two cars instead of three in the driveway or a $100,000 horne instead of a $200,000 horne. u "j 5 •, .. , •·· I

:>!arch 11, 1981 Ta?e 288 EC - 3 Z.1R . BENNET'!' : Mr . Speaker, I am of the opinion that the ba ckbone of any country are the masse s, not nece ssarily the classes who already have sufficient income, and I am very anxious to see a Select Committee struck to study the escalating cost of living in this Province, the highest cost of living anywhe re in Canada, and at this time, understanding that we have the lowest productivity . Of course , you \vould have a low productivity , ~1r . Speal<er , 1vhen you have a low employment rate , when you have high unemployment the figures themselves will give you low productivity. But low productivity, tliG ,. "l ,..,

:·~arcn 11, 1981 Tape No. 289 SD - 1 c·!R. T. 3E)INETT ; Mr. Speaker, in this Prr:>vince. of course, is aggravated, it is aggravated by the fact that not necessarily does a person perform well when he has a high income. Just because a person has a high income does not necessarily mean that he is a high performer. We have, in the House of Assembly, high inco~e people so naturally they are going to vote against the bill that is before this House simply because, I suspect, they do not know lvhat it is like to live - I rr.ust admit, Mr.

Speaker, I do not know what it is like to live on the income that I am exposed to in the district that I represent, the income of some of the people that I represent. And our younq people today-ten years or more ago, our young people whowere trying to get into trade schools, the government of that day allocated for them twe,.,tv-five dollars a week to help them with their education. That is about ten years old, and there has been no increase in that allowance. These are the kinds of things that I would like to see brought into this House and brought up to today's standard.

I remember when- a lot of us here today would remember, of course, the old six cents a day. Yow, Mr. Speaker, in my opinion,the six c~n~~ ~ ~ay was equally as well received as the $237 a day to a welfare recipient of today. The six cents a day-at that time we could supplement our income by growing vegetables, by catching fish, by shooting animals, we had wide open country. But today, we are held back by government licencing, we are held back by many things on which this yovernment could intercede on behalf of the people, the people who are paying the wages and paying for the high incomes. So, Mr.

Speaker, I am very, very anxious to see what the vote is going to be when it is taken. And I most certainly support my colleague's resolution in having a co=ittee struck that will study the high cost of living in this Province. And I hope every last person in this :iouse of Assembly ... ,ill support this resolution. J I 7 ''I .. ..

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 289 SD - 2 (<lR. T . BENNETT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. ANDRE\'lS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Soeaker, this is an impossible motion for me to support and 1 I think, anyone on this side of the House. I think a lot of it was said, the reasons why 1 by the hon. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) last week. First of all, the things that influence the cost of living in Newfoundland are the same things that influence the cost of living in every other province and region in Canada.

The cost of money is reflected in every activity in our society today. The retail businessman who has to borrow money to create an inventory for his stock, has to pay a very high interest. The private homeowner who wants to mortgage a house, and just about everybody mortgages their home 1 nobody pays cash for it, has to borrow money at exhorbitant high interest rates, almost usury today. Mr. Speaker, these are things that the Federal Government of Canada controls, the federal Minister of Finance (Hon. A.J. MacEachen), and the Bank of Canada.

The rental units that are talked about so much, the cost of renting once again is reflected in the cost of money, the cost of mortgage money to construct rental units. The cost of transportation, Mr. Speaker, is very high in this Province reflected in the cost of energy, the cost of fuel oil and the cost of gasoline. The provincial Liberals on the other side of the House support very strongly the federal Liberal government that defeated the PC government only a year ago that advocated an eighteen cent a gallon increase on gasoline. What is it now?

Twenty-four, twenty- five, twenty six, thirty cents a gallon in one year and it has not stopped yet, Mr. Speaker. 0 l 0 •-, '·I .. I

:-!arch ll, 1981 SO~!E RON. C<l£::!!BERS : 2<1R. ANDRE,'lS: Tape No. 289 SD - 3 Oh, oh. Horne heating oil, the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) complained about the cost of heating oil on the Coast of Labrador. Certainly it is high, very high. The price of oil for generating electrical energy in many parts of the Province: u j 9 ''I ''I .. ,

March 11, 1981, Tape 290, Page 1 -- apb MR. ANDREWS: Perhaps one of the reasons we have to generate so much energy - one of the reasons is because we do not have the right to transmit our own hydro electricity across Quebec. The cost of energy for fishing boats is very high - fuel oil and gasoline for chain saws. Mr. Speaker, all these are costs imposed upon us largely by the Federal Government of Canada, costs that we have very, very little control over. There is very little we can do about it.

But I will say that the Province of Newfoundland has made some steps in what it can do in lowering the costs and of raising the standards of living in Newfoundland. This is the Financial Post report on the Canadian economy for 1980, and there is one interesting set of figures here that quotes the income required to give the same after-tax income in 1980. In Newfoundland you had to earn $26,000 in 1980 to take home $20,000. This is the lowest figure they have here, they use $20,000, $30,000 and $50,000 as very round figures. If you earned $26,000 in Newfoundland last year, Mr. Speaker, you could take home $20,000.

So how does that compare? We have been told by the other side of the House that we are the highest taxed Province in Canada - $26,000 in Newfoundland. You would have to earn $28,000 in Quebec, Mr. Speaker. Other provinces are similar to us, $26,000 in P.E.I., $26,000 in Nova Scotia, $26,000 in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. U20 L , .. , .. , .

1·Iarch 11, 1981, Tape 290, Page 2 - apb MR.. ANDREHS : Only three other provinces in Canada where you could earn less money and take horne more and those are Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia, and the figures there are $25,000 a year. I think on those figures we stand up very well,which means that our provincial income tax is not as high as some people try to make us believe, Mr. Speaker. The employment growth from 1970 to 1980: Mr.

Speaker, there were only two years when we did not have a Conservative Government in this Province, the Canadian average annual income increase in employment was 4 per cent, the Newfoundland average was 3.5 per cent. But let us look at some of the other provinces keeping, then,in mind, the 3.5 figure for Newfoundland: Saskatchewan was less at 2.5; Manitoba 2; Ontario 3 per cent; Quebec 2.5 per cent; New Brunswick 3 per cent, and P.E.I. 3.5 per cent.

There were only two provinces out of the ten that surpassed Newfoundland jp ~hi~ oast decade in employment increase, andthose were, once again, British Columbia and Alberta. I think, Mr. Speaker, these are some interesting figures. You couldgo on all day looking through this review. One other one I would pass along- Alberta and B.C., of course, lead in pretty well all these figures, but the real domestic product for this nation, this is the average annual increase from 1969 to 1979, once again, almost a decade, the Canadian average was 4 per cent annually.

Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island were 5 per cent, one percentage point ahead d i. '1 ..I •·t ..,

~ ~arch 11, 1981 , Tape 290, Page 3 -- apb :01R • ANDREtvS : of the Canadian average . -We beat all the other provinces except, once again , British Columbia and Alberta . Alberta had about 6.5 per cent ahd British Columbia just a little bit less than 6 per cent . Ontario was about 4 per cent, the Canadian average . We were 5 per cent, that is the annual increase in domestic product . So I think, Mr . Speaker , it is fair to say that this provincial governrr~t over the past decade, approxL~ate decade, has improved the standard of living in Newfoundland and done its best to keep down, certainly provincial taxes .

But there are problems. And I did say that one of the biggest problems facing us in this Province is th .e cost of transportation . And to divert slightly from the subject of - or to concentrate, I should say, my thoughts 022

Harch 11, 1981 Tape 291 PK - 1 ~1R. ANDREivS: on one aspect of this whole thing, I would like to refer a little bit to the whole transportation system of bringing goods and services and supplies and people into Newfoundland and Labrador. And, in particular, I would like to refeE to the CNR, which is a federal Crown corporation, one of the largest in Canada, probably the largest in Canada without a doubt. Last year they spent aproximately one hundred-odd million dollars subsidizing the various activities that they have in this Province, particularly CN Marine.

The Newfoundland coastal service was subsidized to the tune of $26.5 million last year, Mr. Speaker . That coastal service employs six ships. \~e have in , this Province a privately owned fleet of vessels totalling, at my latest count,eleven vessels which was subsidized to the tune of $3.5 million. That fleet of vessels transported 90,000 tons of freight around the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador last year. ~.ffi. LUSH: MR. ANDREWS: Last year? Last year. We are looking at twice as many vessels that operated for 10 per cent of the cost that the CN vessels operated on last year, and this is subsidy money.

This is money that comes out of the taxpayers of Canada, and indirectly out of the taxpayers of Newfoundland. AN HON. HEMBER: They operated at full cost, 10 per cent of the total cost to CN. MR. ANDREWS: The total cost to the taxpayers of Canada to subsidize the privately owned coastal fleet in Ne wfoundland was $3.5 million. HR. NEARY: (inaudible) away? MR. ANDREWS: lrThat do you suggest, that they give The total cost to subsidize the 023 .. I 'I

t·larch 11, 1981 Tape 291 PK - 2 ME<.. A..~DREWS : CN fleet was $26 million - MR. LUSH: Oh, boy! MR. ANDRE\'VS : - for half the number of vessels. HR. HANCOCK: Then do away with the (inaudible) . AN HON . ~~a1BER: No, no! !>!R. AND REviS: The CN cost almost ten times as much to subsidize as the privately O'<~ned vessels in this co untry. HR. HORGAN: CN is ripping off the country. MR. ANDREWS: I would suggest that the CN has a lu~ of good bookkeeping to do and,a lot of tightening up to do. l~R. NEARY: The hon. gentleman might be (inaudible) !~. ANDREWS: The freight corning in, :'-lr.

Speaker, to c.Jewfoundland from !~ontreal, into St. John's and Corner Brook by private operators,was subsidized to the tune of $4.1 million. But the interesting figure here, Mr. Speaker, is that the Newfoundland coastal service was subsidized 93 per cent of a subsidy as a percentage of re venue, but the private freight carriers into Newfoundlan~ were subsidized only 18 per cent, as a percentage of subsidy as opposed to revenue. So I think, Mr.

Speaker, when \ve are talking about the CN,and I am sure the subject will come up in many sessions to come or many days to come in this House 1that we should think very seriously about proposals that might be put forward to this Province by CN 1 and I am thinking particularly about CN's belief that they should monopolize, and their attempt to monopolize the whole surface transportation system between Newfoundland and the mainland and within the Province of Newfoundland. And I say that, in particular , in the hope of protecting the independent vessel owners in Newfoundland who emplo y, Mr.

Speaker, some 600 people at the peak season in this Province 1 0 2 i-t .. , . 'I

!·iar ch 11, 1981 Tape 291 ?K - 3 HR. ANDREWS: no small industry in itsel£ 1 and, also , independent truckers within the Province, because it will be very easy for CN to control 1 ~t their drop off charges of their containerized rail service , to control the distribution t~roughout the Province . MR . NE.'\RY: so you are saying do av1a~ •.vith CN and give i t to the private (inaudible) ,.Lt( . MORGAN : Order, ~tr . Speaker . M.H . ANDREWS: Mr . Speaker , I would say that a .. better use of the ~nor million that CN spends in this Province , reputedly spends in this Province- because, Mr .

Speaker, it is my understanding that CN ~1ari ne does not even have its own bank account, that the whole CN structure is run out of ~1ontr eal, and i n places like Moncton . This .$26 million that CN clai m they needed to subsidize sL' coastal boats in Newfoundland, the administrative charges were $2 . 6 million to run the office in Moncton . So, Mr. Speaker, with our dealings with Canadian National,! think we should tread very -::arefully . MR . t10RGAN: 514 million fo r administrat.i.o ·n alone last year . :'1R. ANDREWS : CN has become the· largest Cro~m corporation in Canada.

It has become almost a government onto itself . It rQils the- 025 .. , '"I .. , • I ''I

March 11, 1981 Tape 292 EC - 1 MR. ANDREI-IS : as a member who represents a district, a coastal district that depends solely on water transportation, sometimes they are very difficult people to talk to, I realize that. MR. NEARY: Cancellation of the coastal freight service. The hon. gentleman (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR. ANDREWS: I would suggest to the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) that the $100 million that the C.N.

Marine uses in Newfoundland, if it were turned over to private operators, independent operators who could compete against one another, there would be a much better service to the Provinceof Newfoundland and for Canada as a whole. MR. NEARY: MR. ANDREWS: rern.i'I .TJ<-c; - MR. MORGAN: of C.N. Marine? MR. ANDREWS: Do you really believe that? I do so, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Soeaker, in those closing ~Jhat about the offshore activity That is another point. Nell, we could go on talking about C.N. for a long time. C.N. are expanding, of course, Mr. Speaker.

They care very dearly about the Province of Newfoundland and the Atlantic Provinces in general. \'le saw what happened when they for _cee_d the . Dart ·Container people- to move out o-f E·ail.fa~, disrurting about 350 jobs and moving everything to Montreal, and their move with their involvement with the offshore oil, which comes out of Canadian taxpayer subsidy money·. ·· · Mr. Speaker, the improvements that the C.N. could make with the money that they have in the coastal service,would be tremendous if it were turned over to private enterprise. I would suggest that, Mr. Speaker, especially in competition. HR.

NEARY: (Inaudible) in the business. 026 ... ''I 'I •,

March 11, 1981 Tape 292 EC - 2 MR. ANDREWS: Well, as an example, we have a small ferry service that is run by a private operator subsidized by the Province of Newfoundland, that runs between Burgeo and Ramea. That ferry boat runs when the C.N. coastal boats are reputedly storm bound. She is a 110 foot little scallop dragger, ex Shelbourne built scallop dragger. She can go almost in any weather. She goes on emergency calls to Grey River, to Ramea, to Burgeo on stormy 1\Tinter nights when the Hopedale and the Petit Forte and the Bonavista and the Taverner are so-called storm bound. So I think, Mr.

Speaker, there is still room in this Province of Newfoundland, this Province that has such a heritage of shipping, of ships, and that heritage must be protected and the industry can be protected and it can grow. One of the things that might prevent it from growing, is a monopoly by a large Crmm Canadian Crown corporation. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA..XER (Butt): The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words in this debate.

First of all, when we decided the order of Private Members' Resolutions on the Order Paper, we put this particular Resolution by consent of caucus as number one because we thought it was the most important particular problem which is facing Newfoundland today. 1·1e thought, as well, Mr. Speaker, that we would certainly, in this particular case, have every member in this House in support of our Private Memb~rs ' Resolution. The resolution, Mr. Speaker, is a very simple one, that"v1HEREAS the cost of living in Newfoundland and Labrador is the highest in Canada lJ27 •.. , 'i 'I

~:~c:: :1, 1931 Ta?e 292 EC - 3 :!:t . ~ ooo::::t : and continues to rise; and :·:n:::--<E::\5 :.r.flation , t!'le ever-increasins- cost of living is causing great to~en t, frustration and mental and physical strain on the cit izens of :\ew:oundland and Labrador; and :·2:::~-:..s :;:est of ':.he !actors L'lvolved in cet ermining the cost of living fall under provi nci al jurisdiction , 3E IT ~SCL\~J t~a~ the House set up a Select Co~~ ittee t:c exa'lli:1e all aspects of infl ati on and prepare recommen ­ datio::1s as to hot-: the govern:nent should proce ed to cope wit:h ~hese matter s." Mr .

Spea~er, it is beyond me to unders~and ho~; any member of this hon . Eo~:se could deny ­ ~lr . Speaker, •-:e t,·ould e\'e:1 gc ::or a Royal Commission, •.ve ;.;ould go fo:: any type of study to look at the high cost of livi~g,and t~e frustrations caused by inflation, to look at ho w this is affec ting Neto~foundlande rs and how we can go about C.oi:1g something about it . iVhether that: would mean , Mr . Speaker, changes in provincial legislation , \,·~e':-1-}er t:ha!:: 1110uld :nea., consultation •..Jith our feceral counterparts , •t~hatever it would mea n, Mr .

Speaker , tve are a separate , unique par~ of Canada with unique problems 0~0 •. • •. ,.

March 11, 1981, Tape 293, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: transportation problems, a unique infrastructure which has not been looked at from the point of view of the cost of living since 1968, which is thirteen years ago, Mr. Speaker, when there was a royal commission at that time which is now outdated. The only other time that this particular problem has been referred to, or looked at in any way, shape or form, was in the Plumpt-r ,e Report which I believe was presented in November 1974, and that was the last time, Mr. Speaker, we had a look at this problem. So, Mr.

Speaker, this is a resolution which - I am very, very surprised when I hear members opposite - I was not here last week, but I briefly skimmed Hansard and I noticed that the han. the House Leader opposite (Mr. Marshall) blamed the cause of inflation on high interest rates. Today I hear members opposite talk about the blame of the federal government, that the federal government controls everything. Well, Mr. Speaker, there is one question I have to ask this side of the House: What is it that this government can do? What is it? Do they have any responsibility in any way, shape or form for this Province at all?

For anything, Mr. Speaker? Because whatever - MR. BARRY: you guys (inaudible -) election. MR. FLIGHT: boasting now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER(Butt): MR. HODDER: (Inaudible) teach Do not start Oh, oh! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I love to see a government becoming arrogant. Because this 029 ., . • ~ 1 ''I .

March 11, 1981, Tape 293, Page 2 -- apb MR. HODDER: government is the most'arrogant government, I suppose, that we have had in this Province since 1949. I do not know about governments before that except what I have read in history books, but when you see the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) with that kind of arrogance, when we are talking about the cost of living, when we are talking about inflation, when we are talking about widows, when we are talking about all of these things, talking about his political skin. MR. FLIGHT: Yes, the arrogance, Mr. Speaker, the arrogance. Shame! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame!

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, while we sit here- and I suppose there is not one of us here in the House of Assembly who personally is not hurt by the rising cost of living. I know it was only last year when all members got their heads together and gave themselves a raise, here in this House, we certainly were concerned. I think we were justified but we were concerned and we took appropriate action. But, Mr. Speaker, when we can do that SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HODDER: like to be heard in silence. MR. SPEAKER(Butt): MR. HODDER: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, I would Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, I would not ask to be heard in silence if the hon. member for Stephenville - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HODDER: - was not the one who was interjecting. 030 '1 'I

March 11, 1981, Tape 293, Page 3 -- apb .MR. STAGG: MR. SPEAKER(Butt): (Inaudible) . Order, please! The bon. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) has the floor. MR. HODDER: Because his comments are too infantile to respond to. MR. MOORES: annoyance. MR. HODDER: But they are an They are annoying. Yes, Mr. Speaker, they are certainly an annoyance. Mr. Speaker, when we consider that, and anyone within range of my voice­ all of us have suffered from inflation, all of us have suffered from the high cost of living.

And,I suppose, the high cost of living is something that candidates, when they go out to seek election, Mr. Speaker, it is always part of your platforms, that you are going to do something about the high cost of living. But when whichever party takes power, it is suddenly forgotten. I have not seen any legislation, Mr. Speaker, since I have been here - there is some legislation, some older legislation on the ~s that was brought in by what I suppose this side calls the former administration, which is actually this administration. There were a few pieces of legislation like the Tenancy Board, Mr.

Speaker, which was a step in the right direction. But there has been no significant legislation by this government to do anything to help the consumer in this Province with inflation, or with the cost of living. Now, Mr. Speaker, I consider this to be a m9tter which requires urgent consideration. I feel that here we have the lowest income in Canada and the highest cost of living,in this Province, Mr. Speaker, and I think that this particular 031 ·, 'I

March 11, 1981, Tape 293, Page 4 apb 1'-lR. HODDER : resolution calls for serious study. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that we need protection against the hidden man ipul ators in our economy, the middlemen, the poor transportation system, and the great supermarket chains that are moving into this Province . Because, Mr. Speaker - perhaps to put this in context we should lock at - you see, ~tr . Speaker, I heard the 032 ... .. , ,. ,.

~.arch 11, 1981 Tape No. 294 DW - l MR. J. HODDER: other day that there were 5,000 oeople unemployed here in St. John's. I also saw, Mr. Speaker, some Social Services statis- tics for last year which showed that there was a qreat nQmber of peorle on social assistance in this citv. The district which I reoresent ,and the area which I come from , ~ave 5,000 people unemployed as well and have an even higher number of people who are receiving social assistance. We also have a large number of elderly people in this Province who are living from hand to~outh.

Andwhen we realize that- and this was a case that came to me just the other day, a widow who had no place to live,over sixty years of age, had to find a boarding house. The house in which she resided had just become - she was unable to live in it and she had no help in order to improve it. She had gone to the RRAP and the Rural Remote Housing and for various reasons she could not qualify and her house was not fit to live in. The rate which she received to live in a boarding house,was $163.00 per month, the rent she pays in that boarding house is $160.00 a month . Now, Mr.

Speaker, that leaves her three dollars for clothing and for any other necessities which she may have. Mr. Speaker, in this Province at the present time, a husband and wife and ten children - in my district sometimes there are families with fourteen and fifteen children, it is not unknown, but a husband and wife with seven children, a husband and wife with eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve children, some of them of school aqe - and every member on this side of the House and every member on that side of the House , whether the y be from the city of St. John's or whether they be from outside the city of St.

John's, every member is aware of families >vho are in this particular position 033 ''I 'I •,

~arch 11, 1981 Tape No. 294 D\ 'l - 2 MR. J. HODDER: the rate, Mr. Speaker, which these families are allowed under social assistance rates is $513 a month. No~ that might seem like a lot of money to a single per­ son, $513.00 a month, but think, Mr. Speaker, when you have to heat your home, when you have to do the repairs for your home, when you have to send your children to school, when you have to raise them and give them the proper nutrition and a food basket, I believe, is something like - as of last year it was $80.31 a month.

I believe the minister's latest figures in various ~arts of the Province for a food basket this year is somewhere around $100 a month. AN HON. MEMBER: One hundred? MR. J. HODDER: Yes, a nutritious food basket runs at $104 in Glovertown, $96.73 in Gander, $106.70 in Lewisporte and on you go around the Province and the more remote the area of the Province, th~ more it costs. MR. F. STAGG: MR. J. HODDER: What about the licensing programme? Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member wants to know about the licensing programme, when a fisheries resolution comes up I will talk about it.

But at the moment, I am talking about the cost of living in this Province. ~.R. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. J. HODDER: Which is more important? Order, please! Now, Mr. Speaker, I predict that there will be a raise in social assistance in the next budget. I predict that the government will probably give its usual 10 per cent, which is 10 per cent on nothing. Because you can give - we have seen this in some of the strikes around the Province. If you are not making anything to start with, there is not much use trying to raise nothing to something by per­ centage points. tJ34 ··, ··, '1 ., 't

"a=ch 11, 19Sl Tape :'-lo . 294 DIV - 3 :>!R . J • HODDER : But, ~ . Speaker, the ou tlook for 1981 bv t~e ~etail Council of Canada says that prices will rise fro~ 13 to 15 ?er cenL this year , ~~e cost of :cod will rise from 13 to 15 oer cent this year . Now .what has this ~over~~ent done so far ? Nhat have they done? :<!~ . ? . STAGG : (Inaudible) ~~ . J. HODDER : And I mean this very serious!~ . Nhether the hon . memb er for Stephe nville (M r. Sta gg l kno••s it or not,I am serious about this . The Premier and his wife, C~d bless tbem , went down to a supermarket in St .

John 's and noticed for the =irst time , they found something ...,,onderful, something ne~.,, thev found that the food prices in St . John 's were h~gher than thev were elsewhere and thought there should be an investigation . Now, it. is that investigation that I want to talk about :or a few minutes, ~r . Speaker . Because instead of in a normal 035 ,.

:-larch 11, 1981 Tape No. 295 EL - 1 ~1R. HODDER: fashion, what a normal government would do, if methodically and I might say, Mr. Speaker, you know,the very method and the very public nature in which it was done to cast reflection on to the Premier and his concern for the Province, the very nature in which it was done, suddenly carne up and,. l'<e are going to look into this ' So what did they do?

In their usual fashion they phoned down to the Department of Consumer Affairs and said , 'lve >vant a survey .1 Well, the first week the survey had certain items on it and were in certain towns, and the next week they surveyed other items. The third week they did not have certain items that were in the first two weeks, so,Mr. Speaker, suddenl~ due to public officials, the consumer groups across this Prov- ince and some of the very good consumer affairs people that we have in the rnedia,blew the whistle on them. Yes, blew the whistle that these surveys were not working.

So finally we get another survey and I notice that the Minister of Justice (G. Otten­ heimer) , and Consumer Affairs did not bring this in as a ~1inisterial Statement, he sort of slipped it out to the media so that there probably would be no public debate on it,or there would be no criticism here in the House. But suddenly we have another survey done in the Province and basically - Mr. Speaker, this particular survey - how much time do I have, Mr. Speaker. 1-'lR. SPEAKER (Butt): left. MR. HODDER: The hon. member has about six minutes Oh, Mr. Speaker, such a shock! Hr.

Speaker, this particular survey which carne out, we do not know what it means. Mr. Speaker, if we are going to do something worthwhile in this particular Province, we have to sit down and we have to methodically go about and find out what is the under- 03G 'l •. I .. , .. , •. I ..

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 295 EL - 2 MR. HODDER: lying cause of those problems. The Premier has already said that he is not interested in playing around in any way 1 shape or form with the market- the free market process. We can agree with that to a certain ex­ tent but he has also said we are going to look into it but we do not know what we will do about it. Now, Mr. Speaker, everything is being done in secret. We do not know, for instance the hon. member - the seat that he represents, the town of Stephenville 1was not included in the survey. Do we know that this town will be done the next time?

Will the government be doing the same particular co~~unities each time? If so,will they be doing them on a regular basis? Will there be input from consumers,interested consumers across the Province? Is there any input from interested consumers across the Prov­ ince? Mr. Speaker, will any of the con­ sumer affairs people, the Canadian Consumer Association,which have an active group in this Province, will any of those people have any input into this particular process? And,Mr. Speaker, most important of all, this is what we would like to hear from the government.

What about - what will happen when things turn up that are not quite right? ~hat process is going about now, what investigative process-besides surveying prices across the Province, what in­ vestigative process is going on? Mr. Speaker, and that is only food prices. When we take the housing prices here in the city of St.John's, you know, the housing prices are about $10,000 more than they are in the city of Corner Brook. There may be reasons for that but are we looking into the reasons? Is this pure tJ37 ., .. , 'I .. , •.. ''I

r·larch 11, 19 Bl Tape No. 295 EL - 3 MR. FODDER: speculation because of the coming of offshore oil and gas? Mr. Speaker, these are the questions. But yet we have those surveys being done which seem to be some­ thing to let us know that the government is doing something, they are surveying prices. lvhat are they doing about it? That is the question, Mr. Speaker. What are they doing about it? Mr. Speaker, just to finish: Mr. Speaker, milk went up in this Province by seven cents a litre, back about three months ~~ o. I phoned the Department of Consumer Affairs.

I phoned the De­ partment of Agriculture and I spoke to people there. The De­ partment of Agriculture said, 'We are monitoring it, of course we check into it.' Consumer Affairs said, •we had nothing to do with it, except that we know that it is going up and we are asking about it.' Now, Mr. Speaker, there is no control whatsoever in this Province, none~ Absolutelyno control over the price of milk, one of the staples of a diet, The price of milk in other provinces - we are the only province that does not have any kind of a milk board.

Now, they are called different things in different provinces but one of the functions, and I have talked to some of those boards across the country and one of the functions that they have is that the consumers, the pro­ ducers and interested people,and government officials as well. and the industries themselves 1 sit on those boards and there are protections for the consumers and they are well received by the because sometimes, Mr. Speaker, it is the tJ30 • I . I 'i

~!arch 11, 1981 Ta?e 2% E'C - l YiR. HODDER: producer himself lvho gets hit .. , 1vhen you have a year like last year, when the feed prices go up and that sort of thing. But 'tle have no mechanism lvhatsoever in this Province to monitor the price of milk. ::e have no mechanism to monitor ver'] nuch as far as prices are concerned in this Province. I was asked by my - apparently, one litre of fre~h milk in Postville today cost $2. 91. That is sor.~ething that perhaps l''e should be looking into as well, when we have a price in St. John's of ninety-nine cents and a price in Postville of $2.91.

Perhaps instead of sitting down and blaming everything on the federal government and on inflation, we shoulc'. look at those particular fisures. Mr. Speaker, as well, I would just like to refer to some of the things in the Plumptre report 1 which was the last look that has ever be~n done into food prices in this Province. One of the to~ recommendations ''i by the Plun?tre report said that the poor road system and relate1 facilities for land transportation of food products, especially for some perishable food items, is one of the causes in this Province of high costs. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when you try to get truckloads of perishable materials out to Mainland or down to Fox Island River in my district 1vith the tyoes of roads that they have to come over~s this the federal .. I government's responsibility or is it the provinci?..l government's? I know the provincial government says, 'l'le want more DRF:E money. ' If we want more DREE money, what are we going to out in ourselves? What is t~is government doing? It says, 'The need to keep larger stocks of food products as a orecaution against continual possibility of interruption in supply.' J ·:. q ....., ,_;

:.!arch ll, 1981 Tape 296 EC - 2 HR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, that is one of the things ~hat amazes me about the minister's study. Here we have in St. John's a port, an airport and all the physical infrastructural facilities that there are in any place in Newfoundland and yet,we have the highest food costs. Now, why is that, Mr. Speaker, when particularly we have two "or three large supermarket chains here who are selling by volume? Now, is there any investigation by this government into that particular aspect? No, there is not, Mr. Speaker.

They are out surveying and they are finding out but they are not doing anytillxq. What are you going to do? Tell us. Somebody get up and tell us. Another thing that the Plumptre report pointed out, Mr. Speaker, was 'limited specialized storage for produce and fresh foods~ And it says in some communities, Mr. Speaker - now, this would not be the Avalon Peninsula - but in some communities this type of storage is non-existent. So not only are the disparities between the urban and outports being expanded more and more in things like education and transportation and the road system, but, Mr.

Speaker, the disparities are there as far as food is concerned, the cost of food and the quality of food in this Province, and there are no real reasons. Now, Mr. Speaker, what about the middle~an? You know, we carne into Confederation with the type of economy - because we were a nation and we were bringing much of our goods in from another country, we went through a system of middlemen. What about those middlemen, are they still in place? Yes, they are. But how much, what effect does this have on food prices in this Province? That is what I want to find·out, Mr. Speaker. I will conclude now, Mr.

Speaker, but there are many, many issues that this gover~ment could 0 ~l 0 '·I • t •. i

~1arch 11, 1981 Tape 296 EC - 3 MR . HODDER: look into as regards the cost of inflation and food pric es in this Province . But, ~~ - Speaker, it is not being done, and this government on a Resolution, \\'hen the Opposition c;ets up with a Resolution tha t yo u would think would be regarded as a Motherhood Resolution that everyone \IIOUlc! support - MR . NEARY : Right on! MR . HODDER : -Mr . Sp e ~~er , you get the members on the other side standing up and saying, 'Do not blane us, it is all Ottawa .' HR . Wi\.~: SOr-'2 RON . ~fE~1BERS : MR . SPEAKER {Butt) : Shameful ! He ar, hear !

The hon . the member for Terra Nova . MR . LUSH : t-1r . Speaker, not only have t!'ley given up on trying to do something abo ut this problem , they have given up debating . Now, Mr . Speaker, yesterday . .,hen I was speaking, I said that this was a hard government to sort of knock , a hard government to say anything about because ~~e ~· ahtays ran for shelter under two main areas, one, they blame things on the previous administration, and what they could not blame on the previous administration they blamed on Ottawa . And here, Mr . Speaker , we have a resolution 041 .. •. l

~!arch 11, 1981 Tape 297 PK - 1 r1R. LUSH: that strikes the core of the eco~omic and financial problems of this Province, and the government is saying they cannot do anything about it. They are abdicating their responsibilities, Mr. Speaker. They are running away from the responsibilities which the people of this Province gave them the mandate to deal with, the cost of living, !1r. Speaker, and inflation. And there is nothing this government can do about it. Mr.

Speaker, let me just read this magnanimous resolution so that I can get myself in tune and so that I can make sure that hon. members on the opposite side realize what this motion is about, because I cannot believe that they read it, Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe that they read it and are ge ~ ting up and objection to it and not supporting it. Well, Mr. Speaker, it says; 11WCIEREAS the cost of living in Newfoundland and Labrarlor is the highest in Canada and continues to rise: AND

WHEREAS inflation and the ever-increasing cost of living is causing great torment, frustration and mental and physical strain on the citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador". These are the two facts, Mr. Speaker, about this resolution, the cost of living, Mr. Speaker, and the continual rise in inflation and what this is doing to the people of this Province, the anxiety, the untold anxiety, the tremendous financial bind that inflation is putting upon the people of this Province. Mr.

Speaker, not to support this resolution is to be callous, is to be completely insensitive to the problems that are facing the people of this Province today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: And, Mr. Speaker, that is the message that our people must understand. That is the message that our people must aet ~hen we come up with a resolution that 0~2 ''I .. , ' ·I ' ' I ''i

~:c.::-c~ ll, 2.931 Tape 297 ?K - 2 :~;:;.. LCSH: will bring some relief to the people of 'I this ?rovince 'hen we come up \•Tith a resolution that is ;oing to try and do something to relieve the financial bind ;~ich our people are in, we find the government on the other side, :·1r. Soeaker, do not -.vant to do anything about it. ::? .. r·~.?<-RRE)!: Will not even debate it. ~1?_. LUSH: Well, Mr. Spea~er, I am not sure if there is anything new that I can say in this debate. But, ~!r.

Speaker, I do want to emphasize two areas in ''I which this qovernment can work on,two areas in which this government can have some input, two areas in <.·mich government can have some influence which would help to reduce the mesmerizing situation, the mesmerizing circumstances tha~ the people of this Province are placed in. Well, Mr. Speaker, I want to direct the essence of my remarks to two areas·, one, l.J:r. Speaker, is the lowering of the cost of goods, or at the ''i very least, !-lr. Speaker, mainta:in the status quo of the cost of goods to people in this Province.

And hen. colleagues of mine have suggested, ~r. Speaker, the great discrepancies in prices of groceries and fuel throughout this Province. ;:>,.nd no 1vonder the people are asking questions. No wonder they are saying, \vhat is the use of a government? l·lhy is it, Mr. Speaker, that a basket of groceries is cheaper in Glovertown this week than they are in St. John's or any place .. , else in the Province~ Now , I am glad, of course, that they are cheaper in Glovertown, I do not know if it has anything to do with the great representation of the member they have, but, '1r.

Speaker, I l·muld not be so presumptuous as to say that. But I am glad to knmv that Glovertown is the cheapest ~:I .-, w.., .J

~:a_:-~~ __ , 1931 Tape 297 ?;< - 3 ~!!< . :.<:S:i : place in Xe;.,.fo~dland to gee a basket o: ~::-oceries this \vaek, and if I had knO\o.'n that I wot:id have been co~,'n cllere and gotten a couple of baskets th.is week. 3ut ! cid :lOt knO\v chat, Hr . Speaker . ):R . :-fEh.~Y : Did the Empress go do~.,r:-1 t:"lere this week ~ buy her groceries? YR . ST_:l.GG : The hon . ma~ber Cinaudi~le } . ;tR .

LUSH : Yes , obviou sly because - or somebody ,.,ent do\.;n there and Eound out it was the cheape st place in )!e•,r!:oundland to buy a basket o: grocerie s. ~!R . ~1il.R..1U:N : (Inaudible) they are (inacdibla) . ~L~ . Ll.iS F.: I just :orget the ran ge, r~ . Speaker, beb1een the lowest and the highest. The hi;hest obviously v;as in La!:>rador, and it was a treme:1dou s :range i:1 t!;e cost . )1R . E~.rtY : I SU?pose ~ey could send the gove~~ent pla~e out to Gander and have the E~press in a chau::eur driven car taken do~·:n to Glove:town to buy her basket o: groceries and then Jet it back to St . John 's ~·:3. .

LUS :i : That is right . And , of course, most o: us ca:rnot a:Eord to . l'lell, the point of the matter is, i1-1.r . Speaker , the analogy I am trying to drat" :rom that is the ·'I . u..., '• ,. ~ , • ''I

March 11, 1981, Tape 298, Page 1 -- apb ~- LUSH: frustration that is in this resolution, to talk about the frustration that people are experiencing because of the discrepencies in prices, Mr. Speaker, and certainly there must be some monitoring system, there must be some agency, there must be something we can do with the differences in prices in groceries throughout this Province, and fuel, and oil. There must be something we can do. If not, Mr. Speaker, people are saying, 'What is the use of our government?' And we have to believe them. But what is this? And this thing that the Premier is doing now, Mr.

Speaker, if hon. members over there believe there is nothing they can do, what is this foolish exercise that the Premier is engaged in? I mean, this is for what it is worth. This is going to come out for what it is worth. Hon. members are going right against the Premier's own actions here. The Premier has set up this monitoring process and now, when we say, 'Let us do something about it', they say, 'No, we cannot do anything about it'. SOME HON • MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Then, what is the benefit of this foolish exercise the Premier has going? What is the purpose of it?

What is the purpose of it,if hon. members are saying there is nothing the y can do about this particular resolution? Mr. Speaker, it just demonstrates, again, that all this government can do is talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. But, Mr. Speaker, they are not going to win the support of Newfoundlanders by silly and idle talk. I said yesterday the people of Newfoundland are growing impatient, they are growing impatient through this silly talk, they want to see some action. And we have given the government a chance to 045 '1 .. I .. .. ,

March 11, 1981, Tape 298, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUSH: demonstrate their sincerity, we have given the government a chance to demonstrate that they will act, but, Mr. Speaker, they are not going to do it. What is it? Is it silly politics? Is it because the Liberal Opposition put forward this resolution? Is that the reason? Is that the reason, Mr. Speaker? Well, Mr. Speaker, if it is, we can solve that because we will submit our resolutions to them privately and let them put them all on the Order Paper. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

LUSH: If that is the kind of thing we have to do to get action for the people of Newfoundland, if that is what you have to do, we will do it. ~~. TULK: Give them to the PC Association. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, there is something! The hon. the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), Mr. Speaker, again is over there demonstrating his insincerity about all of this. You would not know but this was just a big joke, Mr. Speaker, you would not know but this was a big joke. Well, this is no joke, Mr. Speaker, this is no joke. It is no joke, Mr.

Speaker, when you look at the numbers of people throughout Newfoundland, the number of people out there so frustrated, do not know where they are going to get their monies next week to buy a week's groceries, do not know where they are going to get the money to pay their phone bill, to pay their light bill. Now, Mr. Speaker, there must be something. we can do. There must be something we can do. AN HON. MEMBER: ,, I G U't Have one. .. , .. , .. ' ., .,

March 11, 1981, Tape 298, Page 3 -- apb MR. LUSH: I will take one. There must be something we can do in either lowering the cost of goods or keeping them at the status quo. There must be something we can do. How about taxes, Mr. Speaker? How about taxes? Are we going to see any increase in taxes this year? MR . t..zARREN: certainly are. MR. LUSH: Oh, yes. We But the Premier said there would be no increase in taxes, did he not? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. LUSH: But we are going to get them, and we are going to get them hidden in our motor registration. Now, Mr.

Speaker, here is an area where we can work to, if not lower the cost of goods,to keep them at the status quo by lowering the taxes, the S.S.A., the highest in Canada. But, Mr. Speaker, I have no doubts but they are going to raise them, they are going to put them in other places, motor registration and in other places. Mr. Speaker, there must be something we can do about the cost of goods to consumers in this Province. The hon. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) alluded to our distribution system.

There must be something there we can look into to see that that system can be structured, and to see that this system can be changed for the benefit of the consumers of this Provi~ce. There must be something we can do. But, Mr. Speaker, just to look on the opposite side of the House now to 047 '; '·I .,

:-larch 11, 1981, Tape 298, Page 4 -- apb MR . LUSH: see the number of people that are there, illustrates the lack of interest, the complete lack of interest in trying to do something tangible and concrete for the people of this Province . Now, Mr. Speaker, that is one area, certainly, in which t~e government can do something , can put in some monitoring agencies, can do something to check on the cost of goods to the consumers of this Province .

There is something that must be done in this area to relieve the anxiety and the frustration and the financial and economic problems imposed upon our people by the cost of goods . There must be something . If there is nothing they can do, w~y do they not resign , Mr . Speaker? If they cannot do anything, well, let them resign and let us take it over , give it to a group of people who will at least 0~8 .. , •·· I ,. •··· ''I

:'-larch ll, 1981 Ta::;:e No. 299 D\'J - 1 ~R. T. LUSH: demonstrate interest, who demonstrate concern. Let us not just, Mr. Speaker, bury our heads in the sand. SOME HON. ~1EMBERS: Oh, oh! "IR. T. LUSH: Mr. Soeaker, this is something - this strikes the core of rural Newfoundland. And I qet very emotional about it because I know the oroblems that people have, I knovl the problems thatpeople have in rural Newfound­ land when it comes to tryin~ to live in this Province today, when it comes to meeting the cost of goods and services, when they have to J?ay their electrical bills, Mr.

Sneaker, their grocery bills and the cost of clothing and school taxes. Mr. Speaker, thev are skinned out, the people of this Province are skinned out. And they do not know, Mr. Speaker, where they are going to get their next dollar. They do not know, ~r. SpP.aker, how they are going to provide their families VTith food and shelter in the weeks and months that lie ahead. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is one area ><There this government certainly should be able to do somethinq, that is one area. ~-1r. Speaker, how about raisina the per ca?ita income of the people of this Province.

The lowest per capita income in Canada, Mr. Speaker, the lowest per capita income,in this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, is that not a responsibility of the government; Is that not a responsibility of the provincial qovernmen~ to look into the per capita income of this Province7 Mr. Speaker, is that not their responsibility? Is that a federal responsi­ bility? ~'L~. F. ST.i"_GG: Yes, indeed. ~~R. T. LUSH: T~~t is a federal resoonsibility. That tells, .11r. Sneaker, ac;ain how much the hon. member for Stephen­ ville (Mr. Staga) knows about what the responsibilities of qovernment are. it.Jell, ~1r.

Speaker, you cannot expect 0Lu ',:J ··, .. I .. , .. ,

)!a rc h ll, 1981 Tape No. 299 DW - 2 HR. T. LUSH: him to know very much about it, I suppose, he is not in on the inside of what is going on. He is kept in the dark. Now, Mr. Speaker, here is an area that is a responsibility of the provincial government, raising the per capita income of the people of this Province. MR. G. FLIGHT: How about the minimum wage? M...R. T. LUSH: Now, Mr. Speaker, we do that mainly through two areas. We raise the per capita income of our people mainly in two steps - MR. J. DINN: (Inaudible). MR. T. LUSH: And, Mr. Speaker, here is the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) over there mouthing off and he is a part of the problem and not part of the solu- tion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: ~1 R. T. LUSH: ' Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, one way in lvhich we can raise the per capita income is to try and raise the wages of our people, raise the wages of those people at the College of Trades and Technology who could do better by receiving social assistance. That is what we can do. Look at those employees down there who would do better, ~x. Speaker, to go on social assistance. So, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour and Man­ power is a part of the problem. He is part of the problem. So, Mr.

Speaker, one thing we can do , and the government must set the example- 1 realize, Mr. Speaker, there has to be some responsibility. but when we look at employees within the Public Service who could do as well or better by being on social assistance, Mr. Speaker, how iniquitous can that become? And we call that equitable, eauitable and fair! Equitable and fair! Well, Mr. Speaker, that is one area we can work on. We are sort of bridging the disparit y between wages in Newfoundland and in Canada , 050 .. I .. 'i

March ll, 1981 Tape No. 299 DW - 3 '1R. T. LUSH: but we have not arrived there yet. I think it is something like 85 oer cent of our peoole in all areas of the economic sectors of the Provine~ who are receiving - 85 per cent of them are on parity with wage earners throughout Canada. So this means that there are 15 per cent still not on a parity, 15 per cent still not on a wage parity with other Canadians. Well, I hope that \oe can impro ve that. If we can improve that, Mr. Speaker, that is a step towards helping people overcome the cost of living and inflation. That will be a maier step. And, Mr.

Speaker, that certainlv -F;o.ll." nnder the purview of the provincial government, does it not? Now, ~1r. Speaker, raise it and see that our people receive a decent wage, to see that our people receive fair and equitable wages on a parity with other workers throughout Canada. And the Premier talks about equal treatment., talks about equal treatment, Mr. Speaker. Well, this is equal treatment to all the people in this Province, to ensure that everv worker in this Province receives a wage that is equal to his counterparts in other parts of Canada. But the big area, Mr.

Speaker, that will raise the per capita income in this Province is to provide emoloyrnent for the 32,000 people who are unemployed in this Province, provide employment for the 32,000 oeople who aro unemployed, that hard core of unemployed people who have been with 0 5 '1 •. I . ··~ •• I

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 300 RA - 1 MR. T. LUSH: us,Mr. Speaker, ever since this government got elected in 1972, 32,000 people~ And then, ~1r. Speaker, when the statistics fluctuate by one percentage point,everybody gets dancing up and down Mr. Speaker, and it does not matter a row of beans 1 it is that 32,000 hard-core un­ employed people that this government has to be concerned with and they are not ,Mr. Speaker, and they are not. tm. HOLLETT: They are callous. MR. LUSH: And in terms of that,Mr.Speaker, this provincial government have done nothing, they have done nothing.

Rega~dless of these little changes from month to month in the unemployment rate,we still have a hard core of 32,000 people unemployed in this Province. Let us provide them with job opportunities,Mr. Speaker, let us provide them with job opportunities and that will enable these people to be able to fight the war against in­ flation and the cost of living. And those 32,000 people, Mr. Speaker, is not the true figure,but I do not want to get into that. I think that demonstrates the severity of the problem.

That demonstrates the graveness of the pro­ lern, 32,000 people continuously unemployed year in ar.d year out in this Province. And that, Mr. Speaker, is the major reason, that coupled with the fact that there are fifteen per cent of the people working for wages less than their counterparts on the mainland. ':.:'hese two factors , the 32,000 people and these 15 per cent of the workers in this Province receiving wages lower than their mainland counterparts, that is why we have the lowest per capita income in Canada. That is why we have it, And, Mr.

Speaker, are the govern­ ment going to bury their heads in the sand and say we can- 052 .. I ··, .. ''i

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 300 RA - 2 ~ffi. LUSH: not do anything about that 1 that is a federal problem? Now, Mr. Speaker, if it is a federal problem 1if this government cannot get to­ with their federal counterparts and do something to fight unemployment in this Province, to do something to up the per capita income, if they cannot do that, let them resign! Let them resign 1 Mr. Speaker, let them resign~ Let them resign~ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! r-1R. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, it is a complete abdication of their responsibilities.

It is a complete abdication of their responsibilities and let the word go out, let the word go out to the people of Newfoundland today that this government have resigned themselves to the fact that they cannot do anything about the cost of inflation, that they cannot do anything about the rise in the cost of living, they cannot do anything about it. They have taken a defeatist attitude Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! !1R. LUSH: But, Mr. Speaker, this is the core of the economic problem in Newfou~dland today. They ~ould much rather - MR. SPEAKER (Butt} : One minute left. MR. LUSH: we got up here,Mr.

Speaker, mouthing off about the offshore oil. That is what they would like for us to be talking about Mr. Speaker. ~_R. HODDER: The constitution. MR. LUSH: And talking about the constitution. Now, Mr. Speaker, we are not going to allow these divers- inary tactics to overcome. We are going to let the people of Newfoundland see the·real problems. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR . LUSH : We are going to expose,Mr. Speaker, 053 '·I .. .. , •·,

....._ March 11, 1981 Tape No. 300 RA - 3 MR. LUSH: the government for what they are. Well, Mr. Speaker, if they want to demonstrate their concern, if they want to demonstrate concern and interest let them get up today , let them rise in their places and support this resolution. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. L. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER(Simms): and Energy. Right on! Hear,hear~ Thank you. The hon. the Minister of Mines MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address this Resolution and point out just one or two of the small inaccuracjes. MR. HANCOCK: You are going to make up for a bad speech yesterday, are you? MR. L. BARRY: The statement, "AND

WHEREAS most ~f the factors involved in determining the cost of living fall under provincial jurisdiction: The very basis of the resol­ ution,Mr. Speaker, has not been substantiated by members op­ posite, they cannot substantiate that. And I would like to just mention a couple of the things that point to the very real failures of the federal government in this area. I do not know if anybody in this Province knows what is happening right today 1 Mr.

Speaker, and it started as of about three or four weeks aqo, ,.,!-}ere a decision was made on a plai:ra part­ isan,politic basis, for the federal government to duplicate an already existing delivery system which we had in place in this Province 1 in the Energy department of· this Province, to deliver the new energy programme and the funding,which will be provided to assist Newfoundlander's in getting off oil and on to other sources of energy, and this involves,in addition to assisting t154 •. I .

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 301 EL - 1 ~ffi. BARRY: homeowners to convert from oil to, say,better woodstoves, it also includes what they call a superchip prograrnrne 1 or a super­ insulation prograrnrne,which is a very desirable programme and one which I support ,as Energy Minister. But, Mr.

Speaker, officials of the Department of Mines and Energy spent several months in negot­ iations with officials of the Federal D~partrnent of Energy, Mines and Resources, and had an agreement virtually completed, a federal/ provincial agreement virtually completed which would have seen the Provincial Department of Energy utilizing an already existing branch of our department; people in place, management personnel in place, consultants contacted and ready to go, computer pro­ gramming started,all of which would have seen, Mr.

Speaker, a programme in place right now where citizens in this Province would today be receiving cheques to assist them to convert their homes 1 or to better insulate their homes,which would have meant dollars in the bank accounts of citizens of this Province. J'.1R. HANCOCK: What is your point? MR. BARRY: Here is the point. At the last minute, Mr. Speaker, when that agreement \>las ready for signing, at the last minute for partisan,political reasons, members of the Newfoundland caucus of the Liberal party, presently in power in Ottawa - for a short time - SOME HON.

MEHBERS: Oh, oh! ~- BARRY: - persuaded the Minister of Energy, not- the Federal Minister of Energy (~1. Lalonde)-not to go along with the province administering the programme, persuaded the Minister of Energy, for no other reason than because it was felt that this would mean that the Province would get some bene­ fit. For no other reason! AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: It had nothing to do with ability. tJ55 ... ... ''I ..

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 301 EL - ·2 MR. BARRY: It had nothing to do with ability, Mr. Speaker, it had nothing to do with competence, we have proven that. We h~ve proven that by the fact that we are already ad­ ministering another federal-provincial agreement - If it had anything to do with competence, I would invite, not just the provincial Auditor General, I would invite the federal Auditor General, I would invite the Federal Cabinet to come down and scrutinize the operation of the department and point out where it was not competent. It had nothing to do with competence.

Worse than that, it had nothing to do with cost or efficiency because, Mr. Speaker, the decision was made for the rankist, partisan 1 political reasons, that the Federal Government did not want to see this Provincial Government get the benefit of the good impression which would be received by people of this Prov­ ince by having that system delivered by a joint Federal-prov­ incial Planning Committee. Now, I think that is indicative of a sad, sad mentality on the part of our federal representatives in Ottawa, a sad, sad mentality. And they started off, Mr.

Speaker, they had to start off - they did not have one body, one breath­ ing, living body in this Province that could deliver an energy system. And do you know what they have done, Hr. Speaker? Do you know what they have started to do? They have started to hire people in the Province an0 they have started to - the only place they can find th~rn -talking about competence - are the people that we have down in the energy department, the Prov­ incial Energy Departrnent,and they have started to go down and offer, I do not know, one third as much money, twice as much money, who knows?

A lot more money, in any event,to buy away provincial civil servants to set up an office, go out and rent OSG ''I .., .

.'!arch 11, 1981 Tape No . 301 EL - 3 1·3 . BARR!' : an of:ice builc :.ng , 1:.0 do cheir compucer model s, to spend the time trying to t=ack do\vn who is out in th e co mmunity in the way of consul tants and so forth, ,.,.ho is in the priv ate sector, vlho has the capabil icy in the privace sec~or to assis~ in ?roviding these facilities for insulation and so on . They ~~ew absolutely nothing ab ouc it, ~tr . Speake r, and t:hey co not know very much more abou c it no11 , a mom :..~ la ter . But ·t~ha t has happened , Nr .

S9eaker, is we hav<> !-tad a rlt,nJ . .i.c?.tion C'f management personnel in the energy branch because, we still have our mana9ernent: people C0\1111 there in t:he depar tment . us7 ,., ~I ~~ ~~

March 11, 1981 Tape No. 302 GS - 1 MR. BARRY: They have to bring in a new management team to supervise this program. They are, as I have said, hampering the Province's ability to perform our normal services in this field by going in and trying to buy away, hire away personnel that we have working for us, And I hope there is somebody up in the press room listening to this because it is one of the most dastardly deeds that we have seen committed in this Province for the rankest of partisan political reasons. So, now, Mr.

Speaker, not only do we see the federal government having to duplicate personnel,interfering with the personnel of the provincial government, they are also incurring expenses that the taxpayer has to pay for that would never be incurred,such as to the renting of office buildings and so forth. Not only that, Mr. Speaker, not only that but the whole program is delayed. We could be issuing the cheques right now. The people, the citizens in this Province are losing the benefit of the dollars that were obtainable under this program because it is not yet ready. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there is going to be a great announcement made,very likely pretty soon,by the federal government that they are going to have this great new office set up. Mr. Speaker, rot only is it going to be months late - MR. WARREN: More jobs (inaudible) • MR. BARRY: NOt more jobs, not more jobs - MR. WARREN: !1ore jobs. MR. BARRY: - the duplication of jobs which the people of this Province and other taxpayers of Canada are paying for. Now, if you are asking, "Is that improving the cost of. living?" Not likely, Mr.

Speaker, not likely that is improving the cost of living 1 that is just increasing the burden on the taxpayer of this Province. OS8 .. , ''I

Harch 11, 1981 Tape No. 302 GS - 2 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I received a nice little publication I get regularly called "An Ottawa Newsletter" which, if you are not reading it, is well worth reading. It has some nice insights into what is happening in Ottawa, a nice

summary, and they usually have the news hot off the presses. They pointed out, Mr. Speaker, that

whereas most departments of government are either -they are trying to hold the line,even though the Auditor General says up there that ·their spending is out of control, and everybody knows that the federal spending is out of control, they make the pretence of trying to keep a freeze on in most departments, keep control on hiring in most departments. But in the Energy Department, Mr. Speaker, they have thrown it open and they have estimated that the personnel involved in the federal Energy Department will close to double within the next year or so and, Mr. Speaker, we can see the reason for that.

Well, you see the reason for that right here in this Province where, because the federal government influenced by our own provincial representatives in their caucus - it was a caucus decision. I spoke to the federal Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources half an hour before he went into his caucus,where this was going to be discussed. By coincidence I was up there to talk to him on another matter and I raised this and, as I say, by coincidence he happe