Manitoba Hansard — 10 December 1982 (Sitting 7, 32nd Legislature, 2nd Session)

32-2-7

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No.7 -10:00 a.m., FRIDAY, 10 DECEMBER, 1982. Printed by the Office or the Queens Printer. Province or Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.A. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R; (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMM OND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RAN�OM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Sprin gfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Rad isson Cha rleswood St. Jame s St. Johns Morris Robli n-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selk irk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP ND P NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 10 December, 1982 Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Peti- tions Read ing and Receiving Petitions Presenting Re por ts by Stand ing and Special Comm ittees MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS RETURN TO ORDER N0. 15 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you. Mr. Speaker. I beg leave to file the Return to Or der of the house No. 15 dated June 29, 19 82, on the motion of the Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Govern ment Services. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Spea ker, I would like to table the report of the Manitoba Telephone System for the year 19 81 -82; and the report of the Board of Internal Economy. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion of Bills . Int roduction INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Or al Question period I direct the attention of honourab le members to the gallery where we have 35 students of Grade 9 standing from the Landmark Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. Neu feld and Mr. Reimer. The school is located in the constituency of the Honour ab le Mem ber for Spri ngfield.

On behalf of all of the members. I welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SP EAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Op position. Re Speaker's rulings HON. S. l YON: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the First Minister. Did the First Minister. Mr. Spea ker. any member of his caucus or any third party, for or on behalf of the First Minister or members of the government, make any contact directly or indirectly with Mr. Speaker on December 9th, relative to his rulings during the speech given by the Honourable Member for Fort Gar ry on the afternoon of December 9th? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: I called upon Mr. Speaker person ally at 5:35 p.m. yesterday, in order to advise the Sp eaker that I wanted a copy of the transcript pertain ing to the proceedings in the latter part of the after noon and indicated to the Speaker that I felt that some unparliamentary language had been utilized, particu larly in respect to some references by the Member for Fort Garry in relationship to myself, and that I expected, upon perusal of the transcript, to raise a matter of privilege at 8 o'clock. HON. S. l YON: Well, Mr.

Sp eaker, given the answer by the First Minister, I must say, Sir , with the greatest of respect to you, that his answer calls for a substan tive motion which would have this matter referred immediately to the Privileges and Elections Commit tee because there has been, by virtue of the answer given this morning, a suggestion of high impropriety with respect to your ab ility, Sir , to ca rry on in your position.

It's my intention then, Sir , to move a substantive motion that this whole matter be referred to Privileges and Elections where evidence can be taken under Oath in order to determine what prompted the out bur st from you. Sir . last evening. I hope we will have the support, Mr. Spea ker, of the members of the government to have this referred immediately. MR. SPEAKER: The Attorney-General. HON. R. PE NNER: Mr.

Sp eaker, first of all, further in response to the first question asked by the Leader of the Op position, at approx imately 7:50 p.m. yesterday evening I called at your office to pick up a copy of the transcript which had been requested by the First Min ister and picked up that transcript, and shortly after left your office. That will complete the record on that, as far as I'm aware.

Second ly, with respect to the suggestion by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. the office of the Speaker is open to any member of the House and may call upon the Sp eaker to raise a question with the · Speaker at any time, and to ask the Sp eaker to furnish a transcrip t when Hansard is not ava ilable; to go as far as the First Minister has said that he has gone to say that there's a point that concerns him and that is why he is asking for the transcript, that is perfectly proper to suggest that it is improper; and then to go ahead and say, Sir, that you in the exercise of your duty, having calmly or attempted to calmly read a ruling which was entirely yours, that this was - what was the langua ge - an outburst 011 your part as a further attempt to derogate the office of the Spea ker, which is lamentable in the extreme. 149 HON.

S. l YON: Mr. Spea ker. I must rise to make this point. I suppose it would be a point of order arising from the comments made by the Ho use Leader and the First Minister. The suggestions that contacts with you, Sir, reflect ing upon a decision that you made earlier in the day are not improper, do not have any acceptance on this side of the House. or indeed in the precedence of any

Friday, 10 December, 1982 parliament, and I can only say, Si r, and I say it with great respect, that we will be bri nging a substantive motion to have all of this referred to Privileges and Elections. I can't honestly, Si.r, offer you any advice in the meantime but I suggest. Sir , that your position has become untenable in the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. Increase in health care construction MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Spe aker. My ques tion is to the Honourable First Minister. In view of the fact.

Sir , that the Honourable First Minister has seen fit to make an issue of this, not when I said it but several hours later in the House last night, I would now ask the honourable gentleman if he can confirm that in a recent address to an audience in Vancouver he stated that in the past year, under his government, Manitoba has enjoyed "an increase of almost 10 0 percent in health construction." MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, yes, and it is based upon the figures as per the Budget Address of the past spring. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Sp eaker, can the Honourable First Minister also confirm that he made the same statement, the same principle, in slightly different form in his year-end statement, meeting the chal lenges in Manitoba, to the effect that "restoration of the health care system has been led by an increase of almost 10 0 percent in health construction." HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, we recall very well the freeze that had been imposed by the previous government pertaining to hospital and personal care homes.

The fact that this government, in the first year of it being in government as per the announcements, as per the work that has already been commenced, has indicated a forward thrust perta ining to hospital and personal care home construction in Manitoba. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, with the particularly acute memory_ that the Honourable First Minister seems to have for the last four years, does the First Minister remember two other facts: the fact that the Capital Construction Program in the health facility field, under the Lyon administration in that four year period, totalled $234 million and that in the fiscal year 19 81- 82 the program was $34 million? Does he recall those figures and facts, Mr. Sp eaker? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, we'll certainly check any and all figu res that the Member for Fort Ga rry raises.

It doesn't require acute memory on the part of any Manitoban to recall very well how health care facilities, construction of same, were frozen, that they weren't proceeded with despite the fact that in many instances there was dire need for the proceeding of personal care home and hospital facilities, that they were long overdue. It was the previous government, Mr. Spea ker, that froze tenders, and froze the pro- 150 ceeding of various. hospital and personal care homes in the Province of Manitoba. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Spe aker, does the First Minis ter recall the statement on Capital construction deli vered in this House on April 27, 19 82 by his Minister of Health , the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, out lining the fact that the Capital program for the current fiscal year in terms of new appr ovals and new con struction which, Si r, is not, by the way, accurate, because none of them were new appr ovals for new construction, but even granting him that point, that the total was $2 1.5 million?

And then when he makes a statement in this release and in Vancouver, claiming a 10 0 percent or an almost 10 0 percent increase in health care construction, he has got to be able to demonstrate from some $65 million to $66 million to $68 million worth of health care construction under his government this year. I challenge him and ask him now, Sir, to demonstrate that and show those figures. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, we'll be quite pleased and quite happy to deal with those figu res during the appropriate time, which is the time for Estimates.

The figures speak very well for themselves, and the Minis ter of Health and myself w.ill be quite prepared to deal with the figu res during the Estimates. Mr. Speaker, we will also be quite pleased and quite happ y to deal with the figures for 19 78, '79, '80 and '81 as well. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my comment yester day and the First Minister's motion of privilege, or his interjection of privilege - I don't know that he made a substantive motion - are based on a statement made by the Minister having to do with Capital construction in the health field under his government.

If he's claiming 10 0 percent increase and now wants to talk about four years, then he has to show us, not $68 million but $468 million, so I sugge st he stick to one year, Mr. Sp eaker. He's talking about four years. All right, then give me $234 million doubled and he can't do that, so let us stick to the one year and you introduced a program of $2 1.5 million. Our s in the last year was 34 -(I nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. The Honourable Government House Leader on a point of order. HON. R.

PENNER: The Honourab le Member for Fort Gar ry in another fit of passion is making a speech, is not asking a question, hasn't been raising a

preamble to a question and is clearly out of order. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Fort Gar ry have a question? MR. L. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Sp eaker. Would the Honourable First Minister deliver

chapter and verse on his claim during this pre-Christmas sitting of the House. He knows full well that we probably won't be into the Es timates on the Department of Health 'til February or March or perhaps even later. He has made a statement, both on the west coast and here, that, Sir, is patently untrue and inaccurate. If he bel ieves that it's true and accurate, then it's his responsibility

10 December, 1982 My question is as asked a few moments ago, for those in the back row who refuse to listen: will the Honourable the First Minister deliver

chapter and verse and documentation on that claim in this pre Christmas sitting of the Legislature? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L DESJARDINS: Mr. Sp eaker, one of the important tasks of this House is to look at the Esti mates. During the time of the Estimates all the ques tions are answered and I say to this House that I'll have all pertinent information and then some when my Estimates MR. L SHER MAN: Mr. Speaker, one final question.

May we then, and may the public of Manitoba then conclude from the posture of the First Minister that he does not intend to attempt to back up that statement? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, what is basically at issue is unparli amen tary lang uage, which was uncharacteristic I had thought of the Member for Fort Garry yesterday. Mr.

Speaker, what I'm noting this morning is an effort on the part of the Member for Fort Garry to divert attention from the nature of the lan guage that he utilized yesterday in the afternoon Ses sion to reduce the argument to a question of whether or not the information was erroneous. What we are dealing with in respect to his comments is langua ge that was quite unparliamentary yesterday. Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Health has indicated. we are quite prepared to deal with these questions during the app ropriate time which is the Estimates of the review of the Department of Health, when, Mr.

Speaker -(Int erjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: You know, Mr. Speaker, I must say I think it's time that everybody in this House attempted to restore some decorum to this Legislature. Manito bans expect that of us. Mr. Sp eaker, and certainly the last few hours have not demonstrated that and the use of unparlia mentary language in this House, whether it's on that side or this side, must be dealt with by the members in this Chamb er. Mr. Speaker, we'll be quite happ y to deal with the specifics,

chapter and verse, during the Estimate review, which is the appropriate time. MR. SPEA KER: rhe Honou rable Leader of the Opp osition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, given the inability or the failure of the First Minister to answer the very simple queston about statements that he has made publ icly outside of this province and inside this province, which he fails to substa ntiate, will he at least then give the undertaking to the House and to the people of Manitoba that he will not repeat these untruthful statements until he has produced evidence before the House that they are true? HON. H.

PAWLEY: I will not commit myself to repeat ing statements that are true. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. Refinancing requirement of Government MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance. Can the Minister of Finance advise the House what he expects will be the magni tude of the refinancing requirement of the govern ment in 19 83-84? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice. Study of Dr. Barber MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, a furt her question to the Minister of Finance.

Can the Minister of Finance assure the House that Dr. Clarence Barber, who has been appointed by the government to exam ine possi ble alternative ways for presenting the budgetary statement of the government, can the Minister assure the House that Dr. Barber has not already made up his mind with respect to this issue and that he will, in fact, review it in the objective fashion that one would expect from an academic person in his position? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, that's an insi nuation that I think reflects, not on Professor Barber, but rather on the member who would make it.

Just within the last few months there was a national sym posium of economists who met here in Winnipeg, and he was one of the honoured guests at that symposi um. He is recognized across Canada as one of the most able people in his profession, and for the Member for Turtle Mountain to impugn of the man's integrity, to sugge st that Professor Barber would accept a job, an assignment, to do a study which he had already com pleted, which he had already an answer for is some thing that is, quite frankly, shocking. Professor Barber · has indeed started the study.

I expect that he will be finished, hopefully before we get back into Session in the New Year. I do not believe for one minute, not for one minute, that he would have commenced a study, the conclusion of which he had already come to before he commenced it. 151 MR. SPEAKER: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I draw to the Minister of Finance's attention and to your attention, Si r, a letter which appeared in the Free Press on December 5, 19 81 , a letter signed by Clarence L. Barber, Profes sor of Economics, University of Manitoba. The letter says in part, Mr.

Speaker, "The new government," and this is a direct quotation, "would be wise to restore the Capital Budget approach used by the Roblin and Sch reyer Governments, this would reduce the deficit substantially. In addition, some two-thirds or more of the $94 million budgeted for debt charges is properly classified as a Current Expenditure. It simply helps

10 December, 1982 compensate the holders of Manitoba bonds for the fall in the buying power of their assets. Transfer of this amount to Capital Account would reduce the appar ent deficit by a further $60 million." End of quotation, Mr. Spea ker. In view of the fact that Dr. Clarence L. Barber is already on the record as having taken a position with respect to the presentation of the Estimates, will the Minister of Finance now cancel that appointment of Dr. Barber on the grounds that he already has come to a conclusion before the Minister of Finance even asked him to undertake the study? HON. V. SCHROED ER: Mr.

Spe aker, the members opposite have frequently used the services of certain economists. I don't want to name them; I don't want to go around impuning the motives of those economists. Certainly, Professor Barber has opinions; he is not an individual who walks around in life without opinions, and I am not answerable for the opinions which a person who is not a member of this House had a year ago. He has undertaken a study for this government and he will provide us with a report. MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Member for St. Norbert. Logan Avenue Park Plan MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Urban Affairs. Mr. Sp eaker, in view of the fact that the Comm issioner of Environment of the City of Winnipeg, Mr. Henderson, has stated that if the Minister's Logan Avenue Plan was brought forward by a private developer it wouldn't have a chance, and in view of the fact that the City's Chief Planner, Len Vopnsjord, has indicated that the Planning Depart ment prefers the original plan, is the Minister prepared to change what he has proposed to the City of Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. G.

MERCIER: Well, Mr. Spea ker, in view of the fact that it has been stated by many members of coun cil that the plan. as proposed by Mayor Norrie, was only brought forward in order to placate the Minister; in view of the statements by the professional planning people at the City, is he not prepared to give some consideration to those comments? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Spe aker.

Yester day, the Executive Policy Com mittee of the City of Winnipeg passed and made a recommendation that's going to full council with respect to the issue of the modified Logan Avenue Industrial Plan. a position that was adopted by the vast majority of the Executive Policy Comm ittee. It seems to me that the decision making body for the City of Winnipeg is the City Council and its structures, including the Executive Policy Comm ittee, not the senior administration of the City of Winnipeg. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Sp eaker, in view of the fact that 152 the Mayor has indicated that this plan is being brought forward only for political reasons because the Minis ter of Urban Affairs has taken such an irrevocable position and not prepared to concede to the City's wishes, Mr. Spea ker, and in view of the fact that the Chairman of the Planning Comm ittee of Council, the NOP member for council, Mr. Skowron, has described Mr. Kostyra's plan, the Minister's plan, as an abortion and a bastard ization of the original industrial park. does he not, Mr.

Spe aker, in view of the comments coming from the NOP Urban Affairs wing of the party and the Chairman of the Envir onment Comm ittee, the political person heading the Planning Comm ittee of the City, in view of that comment, is he not prepa red to change his mind? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The member seems to misunderstand what has taken place with respect to the Core Area In itiatives and, in particular, the Logan Avenue Industrial Park. It may be worthwhile, Mr. Speaker, just to take a couple of minutes to refresh the honourable member's memory.

We were faced with a situation when we came to government with respect to that part of the develop ment of the core. that there was no involvement from the residents or businesses that were bejng affected by that development. In fact, Mr. Speaker, the right of any involvement by those residents or busi nesses was taken away by an Order-in-Council passed by, and presumably brought forward by that member who was Minister of Urban Affairs at the time, that took away the right of those residents and businesses in that area to have a say in what was hap pening to the neighbourhood.

In view of that fact, we put in place a Comm ission of Inquiry which held extensive public hearings, heard representations from businesses, residents, city offi cials, provincial officials, federal officials and other interested parties with respect to the plans for the Logan Avenue Industrial Park.

That Comm ission of Inquiry reported early last summer and suggested that the plans for the Logan Avenue In dustrial Park ought to be changed, in view of the changes in the economy, the changes with respect to the Core Area In itiatives and suggested that there ought to be a mix of residential and businesses in that area. That plan was adopted and supp orted by the province and we engaged in di scussions with the city through its Mayor and the Federal Government with respect to the adoption of that plan.

These discussions have been ongoing to the point that both the Federal Government, the city and the province have agreed on a plan of action for a combined residential and indus trial area for Logan Avenue that will meet the needs of the residents of the core area and will work to meet the employment objectives of the Core Area Initiative. That was passed unanimously by the Policy Com mit tee and recommended to the city and that's the pro cess that's been taking place right now. I support the compr omise that was worked out by the Mayor and the federal Minister. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Sp eaker, could the Minister advise this House whether or not he has threatened or advised other partners in this plan, that he would not proceed with other segments of t17e Core Area lniatia-

10 December, 1982 tive Plan unless they agreed with his proposal for the Logan Avenue Industrial Park? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, the very simple answer to that question is, no. -(lnt erjection) Would you like to hear the truth? The truth is, that at no time did the province ever sugge st to the city or the Federal Government that it would withdraw or make any drast ic changes to the Core Initiative Plan over the Logan Avenue In dustrial Park. At no time was that ever stated, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. life insurance industry - government entry Mr. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My ques tion is for the Honourable Minister responsible for the administration of The Insurance Act in Manitoba. My question is, Mr. Sp eaker, is the Minister aware of any problems in the life insurance industry in this province that would warrant the entry of the province into the life insurance sales field in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consu mer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker.

As the Minister responsible for The Man itoba Public Insurance Corpor ation Act - I presume that's the Min ister that the Member for Tuxedo addressed the ques tion to - or for the Office of the Sup erintendent of Insurance, yes, that's within Consumer and Corporate Affairs. I am not aware of any problem that the Member for Tuxedo alluded to. We did say in the Speech from the Throne, that amendments will be brought in to permit the province to get into the field of life insurance and pension management. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, then as a follow-up, the Minister responsible for this particular area of the province's actions, can he tell us if the Sup erintendent of Insurance -that person responsible for the regula tion and administration of the life insurance industry in this province - has recommended the entry of the province into the life insurance field through the es tablish ment of a publ icly held insur anc e corporation? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is not the responsibility of the Sup printendent of Insur ance to determine what government policy is.

That is the role of -(l nterjection)- no, he has not recommended that. That's not his role. Education funding MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker. my question is to the Honourable Minister of Education. In view of the fact that the Minister has recently announced an increase in funding for the public school system in Manitoba for the forthcoming year of 10 .4 percent over last year, will she be giving a similar increase in funding to private and parochial schools in the province this year? MR. SPE AKER: Th e Honour able Min ister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, the information went out to school boards that we would be maintain ing the 10 .4 increase that was in the Education Sup port Program because that was a legislated prog ram. They were preparing their budgets and they had to have that spec ific information in order to be able to continue with their budget process. We will be deter mining the other allocations of money in the educa tion system through the Estimates process that we are presently undertaking. Wildlife status report MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr.

Sp eaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. The Wildlife Act requires that the Minister of Natural Resources table a report every five years having to do with the status of wildlife populations and the govern ment's efforts at managing those populations. That first five-year report was due the 1 st of October, 19 82 under the requirements of the Act, Mr. Sp eaker. I wonder if the Minister can advise the House when we might expect to have the report? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Sp eaker, I'm sure the department will be giving me details of the report and I will be able to table the report during the course of this Ses sion. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, since the statutory requirement called for an October 1s t tabl ing of the report of this year and we are now well into December, would the Minister undertake to distribute the report · to members of the Legislature as soon as it is availa ble, unless of course he is saying that the report will be available before we rise next week sometime? 153 HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Sp eaker, perhaps I should take the question as notice but I want to make it clear that as soon as the report is ready, it will be made availabl e to the House. Fishing regulations MR. A. RANSOM: I thank the Honourable Minister for that answer. Mr. Sp eaker, another question to the Minister of Natural Resources.

Over the past few years the department had been negotiating with Indian Bands and representatives of the Indian people in the province and with the Federal Government to make changes in the fisheries regulations which would res tore some of the Treaty rights to Indian people with respect to fishing, has the Minister been able to con clude those discussions and to have new regulations

10 December, 1982 passed under The Fisheries Act in Ottawa? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker. I would like to confirm what the honourable member has indicated. There had been initiatives taken in respect to the development of a regulation. some clarification of the domestic fishing rights of Native people in the Pro vince of Manitoba. The efforts had somehow become stalled; they were reviewed. We had a number of meet ings with interested people, including a broad repres entation of Native people, considerable input on this matter by a Council on behalf of Native organ izations, and that work is still ongoing.

We have had further meetings. There still doesn't seem to be a complete rationalization of all the issues and I think perhaps there may be some reluctance at this time on the part of some Native people to con clude this matter because of the upcoming negotia tions in respect to a clarification of their rights in the pending Constitutional discussions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. Wild rice study MR. H. ENNS: To the same Minister. My question is, has the Minister received the study from his former colleague, one Mr.

Harvey Bostrom, who was com missioned by this government to study the study that I commissioned on the wild rice question some time ago? Has that report from Mr. Bostrom been received by the government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. Mr. Speaker. Just to refresh the honourable member's memory, I confirmed that arrangement in the previous sitting of the House and indicated that the study had been completed, received and is part of the basis upon which we are drafting a new program in respect to wild rice. MR. H.

ENNS: Is it anticipated that it will require legis lation that will be presented during the coming Ses sion with respect to the wild rice industry? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat ama zed that the honourable member does not recall that in the Throne Speech specific reference is made to the introduction of a wild rice act. Fishing regulations - progress MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: One follow-up question with respect to the fisheries regulations, Mr. Sp eaker.

The present Minister of Northern Affairs, when he was in Opp osi tion. had become ag itated at one point over the lack of progress that had been made in bringing about these new regulations. Could I ask the Minister of Natural Resources if he has been in close consultation with the Minister of Northern Affairs or has the Minister of Northern Aff airs been urging him to conclude 154 these regulations? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to confirm to the House that the Minister of Northern Affairs and I, although we don't sit side by side, are in frequent contact in respect to areas of mutual concern in respect to matters affect ing the rights of our constitu ents. He has been with me in making and considering observations and recommendations at nu merous meetings and I value his input. Emergency Interest Rate Relief Program MR. A. RANSOM: Perhaps that's why nothing has happened, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture.

As the Minister in charge of the Emergency Interest Rate Relief Prog ram, does the Minister of Agriculture expect that funds al located for that program will be fully expended by March 31 , 19 83 as budgeted? MR. SPE AKER: The Hono ur able Mini ster of Agriculture HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, what I can confirm is that in terms of the farm and business sector, we are above the projections that we made in terms of reach ing somewhere in the neighbourhood of 600 to 750 farmers on the program. We have close to 500 farmers now on the program within the first year of it.

Whether all the funds will be expended by March 31 , 19 83, the member should know that it's a two-year program and will continue on for two years. I will take tha t question as notice and during the Estimates we'll certainly have ample time to discuss that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for La Verendrye. Payroll Tax rebate MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Finance and would ask the Minister whether or not the 1.5 percent payrol I tax has been rebated to people who have qualified, in other words, businesses who have been eligible under the assis tanc e program for the In terest Ra te Rel ief Program. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. I'm not aware of any appl ications having been received but certainly if there were appl ications then they should have been processed and they should be receiving their rebates.

If the honourable member has any information with respect to anyone who didn't get one I would be pleased to receive that and look into it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. Non-profit housing - Manigotagan HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, in response to a ques-

10 December, 1982 tion yesterday from the Honourabl e Member for Stur geon Creek with respect to the $1 0,000 grant to the nonprofit housing corporation at Manigotagan, I would like to report that, yes, in fact the board did appr ove that grant on September 28t h.

Further, with respect to the figure that I gave the member concerning the cost of construction, I would like to indicate that the grant that the MHRC Board appr oved in the amount of $1 0,000 is being matched by CMHC to build two square-log homes in the Manigotagan area and that the labour component of those two homes will be given on a voluntary basis.

The other home that was constructed by this method had a price tag of $33,000, which included a labour component of appr oximately $1 5,000 and materials of appro ximately $1 5,000, the total cost of the house being $33,307 which is substantially less than half the cost of the traditional type of housing that is being used for the Rural and Northern Housing Program. It is significant that CMHC has seen fit to move in this direction, and we commend them for tha t. We expect that we'll be able to deliver twice the housing for half the cost. In doing that, Mr.

Speaker, we will also be using local materials and local employees and benefiting the local economies of the communities in which those houses are built. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Stur geon Creek. MR. J. JOHNSTON: I just would wonder, Mr. Sp eaker, I would ask the Minister if he did instruct the board to look up the report on the Wabowden homes that were done under the Schr eyer administration, made out of logs - I don't know whether they were poplar or not at the cost of appro ximately $76,000 apiece. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Sp eaker, those homes were not the same type of construction that is going on and, in addition, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the experimen tal homes that were built in Wabowden, let me say, Mr. Speaker, that over the past numb er of years we con tinued to build homes in Northern Manitoba that are of the plaster and gla ss variety that have a life span of approxm ately 8 years.

After that period of time we're looking at renovations in the range of $1 5,000 and it is time, and this government intends to review those policies from time to time and to try some experimen tation to adapt the products that we have locally to make affordable and comfortable homes. I should indicate, as well, that the homes we're talking about are 1, 200 square feet, well insulated, triple pane homes for the price range that I'm talking about.

We are not going to sit back and continue to deliver homes to Northern Manitoba that are not acceptable to northeners, that don't last in the northern climate, and we intend to do some experimenting and I make no apolog ies for the fact that that happened in the past. MR. J. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm very pleased to hear that and that the experiments will take place and I hope that the government does listen to the experiments and not continue, as they did during their time, to build all the northern houses the way he says they shouldn't be built. HON. J. STORIE: Sorry, Mr. Speaker, I missed the question.

INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Time for question period having expired, before we reach Or ders for the Day, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gal lery where we have 27 students of Grade 11 standing from Kelvin High School. The students are under the direction of Mrs. Humphr eys and the school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for River Heights. There are 22 students of Grade 11 standing from the Gimli High School under the direction of Mr. Melny chuk. This school is in the constituency of the Honou rable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

On behalf of all the members I welcome you here this morning. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE 155 MR. SPE AKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Riel and the proposed amend ment thereto by the Honourable Leader of the Op posi tion, the Honourable Member for Minnedosa has 12 minutes remaining. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It 's a bit difficult to try and pick up where I left off last evening because a number of things have happened in the intervening few hours and it's regrettable that my speech got knocked off the front page by other events that took place yesterday. However, I will try and get back to the theme that I was on last evening, Mr. Speaker. We were tal king about job creation and what this government hasn't done in spite of their mouthings of the great and wonderful things that have happ ened.

I won't go into the story of the unconsumm ated mar riage where the husband had sat on the edge of the bed for so many days telling her how great things were going to be but nothing ever happened. After listening to the First Minister this morning on a small radio clip I'm sorry that I wasn't able to hear it all- I haven't heard such a sad tale of doom and gloom for many many a day, and I sym path ize with the Minister, but I'm sure that he wasn't thinking along those lines last election when they brought out this Clear Choice for Ma nito bans, because there are so many items in here, Mr.

Speaker, that we have brought up time and time aga in that we're not going to let them forget on that side of the House, clearly sha ding of the truth. Mr. Speaker, the shelving of the mega projects that has been highlighted in many many articles I think is one of the sad tales, or sad stories that this govern ment must share a tremendous amount of responsibil ity for. That was the one hope I think we had in Manit oba for providing some lasting and meaningful emp loyment for the technical and the other young people that are going to be coming onto the work force -t here was some hope for them.

Listening to the First Minister this morning on his Manitoba report there just doesn't seem to be any hope left for anyone in the Province of Manitoba.

10 December, 1982 A MEMBER: You missed the happy ending. MR. D. BLAKE: I didn't catch the happy ending and I'm sure there must be one th'ere somewhere. But the state of the economy and the doom and gloom and the tone of his voice was not going to be very inspiring to any young person that was hoping to make their future in Manitoba. The story that was reported on in the Report on Business went on to talk about those developments, Mr.

Speaker, and they end up by saying, "this is the good news but the dark side is that Manitoba has insufficient resources to spark a boom and several expected mega projects have been postponed or can celled," and we're going to be repeating this time and time agai n, Mr. Speaker, because this was the one chance, especially the Power Gr id that was within our grasp and it's been frittered away. The

article goes on to say, "Premier Howard Paw ley's New Democratic Goverment is severely handi capp ed." Well, there's no doubt about that There's no doubt about them being handicapped, Mr. Speaker. They're taking credit for so many things that appear to be hopeful, that are hopeful signs. We hear from the Minister of Housing that they now have their finger in the housing business and they've got their finger in the mining business, and in the oil business; but I think it's time, Mr.

Speaker, where this government got their finger out and got something going for the people of Manitoba. the 52,000 people that are out there looking for work. The little make work projects like cutting scrub and things of that nature aren't really going to provide the jobs that we're looking for. It brings us back, Mr. Sp eaker. to credibility and there's no question about it that this government has lost any shred of credibility that ilm ight have had.

I don't know how anyone out there is going to be able to believe the statements and the stories that are going to be coming across from members on that side after what we've just witnessed recently. The Minister of Energy and Mines is so concerned about his credibility and about his accuracy. Well, Mr.

Speaker. if he were to table the final position papers subm itted by Manitoba to the other two goverments in July of 19 82, it might show what the facts were and clear up some of the innuendo, as they refer to it- and they refer to it as slurs and trying to discredit him - all he has to do is table that report and he could also enhance his position by having Mr. Blac hford appear before the committee, as my leader has suggested. In fact, I think even in an editorial of the Free Press they ask him to do just that I think that would be a good move on his

part if he's concerned about his credibil ity, Mr. Speaker, because then we could find out just what the positions were and who was responsible for fumb ling the ball and losing that project That, as I say, is one of the ones that gave small hope to the workforce in Manitoba, and the spinoffs of course of that project are innumerable. The cement business in the report to the govern ment not too long ago - I won't go into it, I have a copy of it here - they report the problems that the cement industry is in. That project would have had a spinoff effect there. They're laying off people there.

They need some large construction projects, some large 156 paving projects to keep their employees on full staff and of course, we know where the cuts are going to be now; they're going to be in road programs and things of that nature that would have used that So the spinoff effects of some of these larger projects. Mr. Speaker, would have been just innumerable. It's the one little hope that the people of Manitoba and the younger people coming on the workforce had for finding employment and for staying in the province. Well, Mr. Sp eaker, I know my time is running out I thank you for the opportunity to take

part in the Throne Speech Debate again this Ses sion. In closing I would like to mention at this time that the Town of Minnedosa and the surrounding area will be celebrat ing their centennial year in 19 83. Plans are well under way to mark that auspici ous occasion notably and I would invite all members opposite to visit our area in 19 83 on whatever occasion they might have to be in the district, because they will be welcome and I know they will enjoy our celebrations. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Memb er for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to beg in by wishing you well on your term as Speaker. I want to wish you good health and continued compe tent rulings and tell you, in no uncertain terms. that you have my complete confidence as an independent, objective and fair arbiter of debate in the Chamb er. Mr. Speaker, there's been a couple of important changes in my life since last we met Firstly, I was married on November 10 , one month ago, to an attrac tive teacher; and secondly, I was elevated to the third tier in the Legislature.

After 16 years in the second row, it's a change in position and in viewpoint and my first observation would be pass the oxygen mask, but I think it also gives a member a chance to look in a more objective fashion at the political world. I want to also, in beginning, Mr. Speaker, congratu late the Memb er for Rupertsland, who I think made one of the finest speeches I ever heard in this Chamb er. I think that speech will be reproduced and quoted for many years to come and should be widely disseminated. I also want to say, Mr.

Speaker, in opening, that I personally regret the attacks made on my colleague, the Minister of Corrections. I think I know why the Opp osition is so determined to attack and discredit the Minister of Com munity Services and Corrections; it's bas ically because he was the architect of the NOP victory in 19 77, Mr. Speaker. He provided the eco nomic research upon -(Int erjection)- well, I'm sorry I must have the wrong year. Mr. Speaker, Hansard correction, my colleague provided the economic research in the years that we were in Op position, from 19 77 to 19 81.

He provided the economic research and he led the economic attack which ultimately brought down the government I want to say, in terms of his record in regard to the City of Brandon, that he has done more as an individ ual for the City of Brandon than all of his predecessors combi ned. In fact, Mr. Speaker, the children of Bran don are not sure at Christmas time whether to send their letters to Santa Claus or to Uncle Len. both of

Friday, 10 December, 1982 ---��-- �� --��--�� whom provide goodies for the girls and boys and the men and women of Brandon. and in his case, Mr. Speaker, many millions of dollars worth of construc tion projects and many millions of dollars worth of jobs and benefits to his area. The people have been well served by him in office. Mr. Sp eaker, I want to talk first about the govern ment, because I believe that although the government has done well in its first year in office, that it has not lived up to the expectations that some people have of what the New Democratic Party should, in fact, do.

I think I speak for a lot of New Democrats who want a more activist government, particularly on economic issues; and secondly, on social issues. Mr. Speaker, the people out there, the people in the party, and the people in the public want action, and I believe that the government is responding too cautiously and too carefully to the requirements of our time. It's all very well to have your ear to the ground at all times, but the problem is that if you do that too often the blood rushes into your head, and it's necessary to stand back and to look at the broader issues and the broader challenges of our time. Mr.

Sp eaker, at some point, after issues have been studied and groups have worked together to solve the problems, it's necessary to take the action, and in particula r, to provide the leadership that is necessary. I would quote one of my favourite sayings from one of the wisest men who ever walked the earth, Aristotle, that the object of all knowledge is action. It is not good enough to study; it is not good enough to examine. It must be necessary to act after the facts have been gathered and make a decision. Mr.

Sp eaker, I think there are a number of things that have to be done at this particular time by the government, and I realize that there is a broad limita tion on the actions of any government in office in Canada at this time and that is, of course, the world wide recession and the problem of federal cutbacks. But I want to say to the Ministers in the front bench and to the Premier in particular, that there are, I think, four things that should be done at this particular point in time. Mr.

Sp eaker, one problem that the government faces that's hanging up the government and to an extent making the administration nervous, is the size of the deficit. Now, you know, I have been in this House since 1966. I recall very clearly how the deficits were handled and how the Budgets were made, and Duff Rob lin, who was, I think, one of the more pro gressive Prem iers in the history of this province, divided the Budget into Current and Capital Expendi tures. That, of course, is the only logical way to do things.

But in 1977, when our government was defeated, the Lyon administration decided that they could make the previous administration look bad by comb ining these figures, so they comb ined Cu rrent and Capital in an attempt to ma ke the Schr eyer deficit look larger. You know what, Mr. Speaker? They suc ceeded. They were successful in suggesting to the public that the Schr eyer administration had spent a lot of money and had run a high deficit. Now, there's only one problem with that particular ap proach, and that is that then. they themselves became the victim of that particular strategy.

As we used to say - and we had this debate within our own caucus on a few occasions when the former Member for Logan was here - they hoisted themselves on their own petard. That hurts when you do that, I say to the Member for Lakeside. So, Mr. Sp eaker, that's what was done. They took Current and Capital, made the Schr eyer Government look bad in the public mind. But then as the four years went by, made themselves look bad and worse.

So, then the Lyon Government became a victim of this policy so that at the end they were running deficits of a couple of hundred million dollars and people were becoming alar med and that led to their defeat. It was a factor in making them look -(I nterjection)- a self inflicted wound, the worst kind. I want to thank the Minister for his useful suggest ion; the bearded Minis ter in front of me. Mr. Sp eaker, the result is that now we still have this phony system of accounting.

I simply say to the First Minister and the Minister of Finance and the govern ment front bench, it's time we dispensed with this foolish system and went back to a sensible system of providing capital and current expenditures. Mr. Speaker, I think they're probably about 50-50. If the deficit is going to be around $500 million, if that's what's going to happen, it's probably half on current and half on capital. I think that people should not be hung up and psyched out by that particular type of accounting. The other thing, Mr.

Speaker, is I think we have to direct all our energies and all our resources at eco nomic stimulation. We have to combat unemploy ment. That is a serious problem of our time. We have to have a dynamic program of housing and public works and incentives to small business; that's where the emp hasis must lie. Mr. Speaker, to do that we have to trim some expenditures. I think that the Ministers are now going through that exercise, but I think that they're going to have to do a very tough job; tougher than they've done to date.

I think we're going to have to hold the line on salar ies and wages and we can't be award ing 9 and 10 and 12 and 13 and 14 percent wage increases. Mr. Sp eaker, I listened to an announcement today that came about a strike that was just avoided some where in Canada and the amounts of the settlement · were, I think, staggering and that's at this particular poirit in time when there's a high amount of unem ployment; when there's a great deal of importation of foreign goods made in Korea and made in Hong Kong and made in Taiwan. Go downtown and look at where the goods are made.

Look at the snowsuits for child ren and things like that. I find it shocking. It's almost impossible to find a tag on goods where it says Made in Canada. It's almost a rare rlelight. At the sRme time the wages are going up, and at the same time unem ployment is increasing, and at the same time imports are coming in and more workers are laid off, and on and on goes the circle and the cycle. 157 Well, you're right, I agree with the economist from Morris, that it is largely the fault of President Reagan and he got his message didn't he, a month ago. He got the first message.

He's going to get a bigger message in two years and there will be a Democrat sitting in the White House. Mr. Speaker, the final point I make here to the government is that I think it's going to be necessary to

Friday, 10 December, 1982 ��- raise some taxes. I think if we are going to run the deficits: to pay for the programs: to stimulate the economy, we have to raise certain taxes. I can tell you that I am not one who is afraid of raising taxes. I can tell you that I don't like it, but I am not afraid to do it. I think that the government will have to and the Minister of Finance will have to consider the sales tax agai n.

I think that this is one tax that was passed over, but I think if it's necessary to keep things in line, if it's necessary to stimu late the economy, it may be neces sary to raise the sales tax. Mr. Speaker, my position on that has changed over the past 16 years. When I came into this House with my colleague from Concordia, we opposed the sales tax. We said it was a terrible tax. We said that it was unfair to the lower income people. Mr. Speaker. I have changed my position over a period of time because I realize that -(Int erjection)- Well, my col league is right that there was some rebates introduced.

There were some more exemptions introduced; that made it fair. One of the points is, that of all the taxes ava ilable, in addition to good old liquor and cigarettes and cigar and liquor tax and so on. one of the best taxes availa ble is the sales tax. The problem with income tax which, in principle, appears to be the best tax in which all of us instinctively and intuitively support, the prob lem there is that people don't pay it. The problem is that the people in the higher income brackets have the lawyers and the accountants and the tax shelters and the schemes and the devices to avoid paying those taxes.

So it looks great on paper, but in the last analy sis, they're not paying that 40, 50, 60 percent. They're pay ing zero to 10 percent. People like President Reagan, that great free capi talist enterpriser, a couple of years on an income of $1 million paid zero, because he knew how to get around paying taxes. Mr. Speaker, I'd now like to turn to the Conservative Party and to the speech of the Leader of the Opposi tion. I listened carefully to his speech and I tried to take notes and the two notes I got were: No. 1, elimi nate the payroll tax, and that he read from our election pamphl ets. That's it!

But he did come up with a terrific new phrase about wind and rabbit tracks. That was, in essence, his contribution to the debate. We actually have a stronger phrase in Winnipeg, but he uses a rural, more folksy one of wind and rabbit tracks. Mr. Speaker, of course that is the impact of his speech, gone with the wind and not a trace: not even a rabbit track. Mr. Sp eaker, I also acquired, like most of us, this new pamp hlet that the Tories are sending out. You didn't see this? My colleague, the Minister of Agricul ture didn't benefit from this pamph let? No, I think this was a mass mailing in Winnipeg.

This one came from the MLA for St. Norbert and a gentleman if there ever was one. On the inside it has the highlights. Si nce our election November 17 - they paint a very bleak picture - they talk about unemployment and bankruptcies being up and the deficit being up and so on; then they talk about all those mega projects. Remem ber the mega projects? Yes. the mega wind and mega rabbit tracks projects. Mr. Speaker. I don't believe this figure which says that these projects would have created 10 ,000 and 158 12 ,000 jobs; 10 ,000 to 12 ,000 jobs; wind and rabbit tracks. Mr.

Speaker, all this spinoff about the smelter and the potash and the Power Gr id and the Limestone and so on and so on. I mean, that was a promise wasn't it. It was something that was held out to the public, but they didn't buy it. The public did not believe that the Tories would deliver on that particular promise and that was a question of credibility and that, of course, was the decisive factor in the ultimate defeat of the government. Mr. Speaker, we have watched in the first week-and a-half of this Session the performance of the members opposite and, Mr. Speaker, I usually go to the races about once a year.

I'm not an expert at the track but I have decided to offer to the Legislature my estimate, in terms of the Tory leadership, and how these candi dates are doing -(I nterjection)- well, some of my colleagues have been waiting for this. Mr. Speaker, I'm only going to give the starting odds because we're going to have to wait as the race devel ops. We saw the horses as they were brought out and as they were gal loped around the track and I want to give the odds before the race begins. Now that is the hard part and if anybody is interested in placing a little wager they can speak to me later.

Now I'll have to revise these odds depending on the performance, and 1 am an objective observer, and I know that my view will be respected on both sides of the Chamb er and, Mr. Speaker, I want to -(I nterjection)- well, it's cooler up here, it's calmer up here. You don't get acid indigestion. Mr. Speaker, these are my graded selections. This is a one-mile race and the purse is the Progressive Con servative leadership and it's open to 35- to 55-year olds. Now I may have to extend that age limit because a couple of the horses are getting up near the 56-year mark, but long in the tooth and the mane.

My first prediction is for the Member for Fort Gar ry. He's the favourite, can lead all the way, that's the short line on him. And here's his record-t hree-to-two odds. Now, not everybody will agree with me but I'm just telling you that I'm making book here, not you. - (I nterjection)- They're looking at him as he runs up the track. There's only one thing worse than wind and rabbit tracks and that's wind and horse hooves. Mr.

Speaker, on the Member for Fort Ga rry, he has gone the distance in Ottawa and Winnipeg; he has a good image and turn of phrase, or at least he used to; strongest of the urban field but he dislikes a muddy rural track; that is his problem. He has speed and rail and he is, I think, a three-to-two favourite in this race. Now he tried, Mr. Speaker, the other day making a Lyonesque speech and I think that was a mistake; it is not becoming to him. If he's going to try that tough guy stuff that his Leader usually presents, I think he's going to hurt himself. I think he should be very careful about imitating his Leader.

I say the same to the young, impressionable MLA for Pembina and also the younger and more impressionable MLA for Morris. He has to be careful, he has to chose his idols carefully and model himself carefully. Mr. Sp eaker, the next best bet in the race is the Member for Turtle Mountain. His line is that he will force the issue; he'll force this race. Two-to-one. He's the favourite of the rural caucus; a fast starter as Min ister of Finance and House Leader; tal l, dark and

10 December, 1982 serious. Now every one of these outstanding candi dates has a weakness and here is his: with a sense of humour, he could take it all. He's got to get some of that Dave Blake stuff worked into his speeches. He's got to keep in touch with the Member for Minnedosa, get some of those one-liners and work them into his speeches and get tha t alligator story. That's one that I was told and I've been using it ever since, that's a sure-fire winner. If you can tell that in this House, I guarantee you'll be Leader of the Op position.

So he's a two-to-one favourite and I think that he has to be rated very highly. That's his starting position. Mr. Speaker, the next -(In terjection)- no, I don't see the Member for Emerson on this list he's in the stable, he's back in the stable. He's still cleaning up the mess from '77, pulling his stone boat up and down outside the stables. Mr. Sp eaker, the next favourite - I'm not so sure of this any more. When I put this list together I don't know whether I'm going to stick with this one, but the next one was the MP for Provencher, Jake Epp. Mr. Speaker, the short line on him is he can't be ignored.

Now we had somebody named Ja ck Murta 10 years ago; he was going to be the new Ed Schr eyer but Jack did not cut it; finally he struck out. But Jake Epp, I think, is somebody that is a possibility and the odds on him, five-to-one -(Int erjection)- that's right. His line is that he runs well at longer distances and he's trained for a federal portfolio but could contest the provincial purse. Soft-stepper. but he has a flaw - lacks urban appea l; that is the fatal fla w in him. But watch out for this one, so if anyb ody's interested in him, he's five-to-one. Now back to this House, Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Tuxedo remember the Member for Tuxedo? - must be considered. Mr. Speaker, while these odds were made before his speech, remember, I made these up at the beginning of the Session prior to any performances in the House, ten-to-one - that's not bad . He's the Member for Tuxedo. --(lnterjection) Well, I'm reconsidering now. He's good over short distances and he's raced through council and Cabi net. Mr. Speaker. he has one serious handicap - he started out representing River Heights and now he's repres enting Tuxedo.

Now if he wants to be leader he's going to have to come and fight in the tougher terri tory; he's going to have to take on the NDP where there's an NOP seat. He can't hide in Tuxedo among those $350,000 homes and then say that he's going to represent the people -(I nterjection)- -living in a log cabin? Inside that log cabin there are five bathrooms, 20 bedrooms and a five-car garage. App earances are deceptive. --(In terjection)- That's right he should come back to the north end.

Now, he's a north end boy like I am, like the Min ister of Ur ban Affa irs -(I nterjection)- you're a north end boy, another north end boy. Look, there are a lot of north end boys here but if he wants to be -·-(In terjection)- no, the north end is in Winnipeg, that's the far north. Mr. Speaker, if the Member for Tuxedo wants -(l nter ject'on)- my good friend the Member for Lakeside is a north end boy; he's from that toug h par t of the north end -Austin Street, Alexander Avenue. Well, we never fooled around with those guys, I'll tell you. I hung around Mountain and MacGregor. Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Tuxedo, ten-to-one, but if he tries that 159 Lyon imitation that he tried the other day he's going to be twenty-to-one. Mr. Sp eaker, there are some old pros in this race and they're hard to rate. The next one is the Member for Lakeside, he's in this race, Mr. Speaker. If he can get across to people, if he can clean up his act, Mr.

Speaker, if he can only do that and remind people that he's an urban boy as well as a country boy, then he has a good chance because everyone thinks of him as a farmer, an elegant farmer, a dilettante sitting in his white suit or coveralls in his combine with its air condi tioning, its hi-Ii and its TV set and its push-button panel, driving around, protected from the weather, that's it. He's got to have a tough guy image - (Int erjection)- with difficulty Mr. Speaker, he is the person who just missed in his last outing so we have to start him at thirty-to-one.

Well, my col leagues think that's too high -(I nterjection)- little low, bring it down? Well. I'm starting him at thirty-to-one, but I'm willing to revise the odds. I think this side of the House has a higher opinion of the Member for Lakeside. I'm not counting him out, Mr. Speaker. He almost won against Sid Sp ivak and he's what's known as a reliable old war horse. He can always be counted on for a fiery speech, or a good chuckle; in a tough spot, however, and therefore I have to start him at thirty-to-one.

Now he's starting neck and neck with another Tory front bencher-t his will bring tears to your eyes when I mention his name; he's not here right now the Member for Arthur - thirty-to-one. But he would have to improve, I mean, he would have to -(I nterjection)- 1 can see that this side of the House rates him as forty-to-one but I'm giving my odds, which are fifty-lo one. He talks a good race; this is his strength. A favour ite of some rural bettors but he was almost auctioned off during the Alcan stakes when it was learned that he owned land near the track. That is going to be one of his problems.

So there's little hope here and I have to rate him, Mr. Speaker, at thirty-to-one. Then I have my last, the long shot, you have to give this guy a hand because he's coming up from the rear the Member for Pembina, a hundred-to-one. A fear less heckler, Mr. Speaker. No man in his right mind would heckle Sid Green, but he did; nobody would dare stick their head in the lion's mouth, but he did. He's the only guy I know on that side who would ever take on Sid Green and, of course, few times came close to paying for it.

His problem is that he is a young and impressionable MLA who looked to his Leader for inspiration and used his Leader as a model and felt that by imitating his Leader he could advance his position and his own career. Ti1ere's where he's going to have to change, Mr. , he's going to have to find a new model, somebody on this side. So I simply say to him that his problem to date is that he t1as only won races at country fairs. He's only won those coun try races and those are easy, those are cinches, just a few people running around the track, a bunch of Tories applaud ing.

He's not ready for the big one yet but I say that starting out in that position he can only improve so we may have to revise him; he can only go up. Mr. Speaker, there are other people in the race. The Member for Morris, is definitely in this race but he is so far out of contention, compared to these other fine candidates that I can't give you a line of odds on him.

Friday, 10 December, 19 82 Mayb e next time. What does he have going for him? His looks. He looks like Premier Devine and he may be able to parla y -(I nterjection)- if looks could kill, no that's not what I meant - his app earance right into the Premier's Chair. Now we don't know. -(lnt erjection) The Memb er for Morris -(Int erjection)- no, no, no I understand. I'm talking ab out 10- 15 years down the line. Mr. Sp eaker. another person that we have to con sider 1s the Memb er for St. Norb ert. Don't rule him out.

He's got his face plastered all over his riding at the front of this particular pamph let that -(lnt erjection) yes, he's plastered -(Int erjection)- and he's giving us . it's not a message of gloom. If you read this pam phlet, it's very deceiving because it seems to be a message of gl oom but he points out it's not a message of gloom but he says it's not a reassuring picture and that he wants to provide a message of confidence. I think that he's not out of it yet, right? I can't give odds on him though, he's higher than a hundred-to-one. Mr.

Sp eaker, he has to be considered, as well as that perennial candidate in River East Constituency, Harold Piercy. Remember Harold. the Provincial President of the Conservative Party. You may not remember him, Mr. Sp eaker. but he comes from your neck of the woods. Mr. Spe aker then there are others. There's people that some of us have almost forgotte n. I think Keith Cosens would have been a candidate. I think Keith would have been a strong cand idate but he was defeated. Don Craik is still a force. still in the party, still has the ear of the leader and still could be a candidate. So. Mr. Speaker.

I think I'll simpl y - (I nterjection)- Walter? Walter's in the galle ry. I don't think I could put an odd on him, Mr. Speaker. So that's the leadership race as I see it. I want to warn the candidates up there -(I nter jection)- no. not Peter Warren - Mr. Speaker. I want to warn the candidates, particularly the young candi dates. not to imitate their Leader. That is not the road to victory. They will have to develop a new image. They will have to pick someb ody on this side as their model or somebody on the federal scene as their model. So. Mr. Speaker, that's where I conclude and that is the start ing line-up.

We're going to see how every body does in the next few months and we're going to give the final odds because when we come back next November there's going to be a new Leader of the Opp osition, so here they are ag ain. The Member for Fort Garr y - are you taking this down - 3 to 2: the Member for Tur tle Mountain, 2 to 1: the Member for Provencher. Federal, 5 to 1: the Memb er for Tuxedo. he's a little fart her back, he's got a shot at it, 10 to 1 Any takers?

He may have to grow a mustache. may have to come back to the north end and fight the NOP on its home turf instead of that easy stuff. those easy pickins down there in Tuxedo. Mr. Speaker. the Member for Lakeside, 30 to 1. but looking better. com ing on: the Memb er for Arthur. 30 to 1. but fading al ready: and finally. the Member for Pembina. 10 0 to 1 long shot. Thank you. Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER, J. Walding: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain 16 0 MR. A. RANSOM: Thank you, Mr.

Spe aker I'd like to begin my comments with the traditional congratula tions to the new Dep uty Speaker and Chair man of Comm ittees upon their appointments and trust that they will carry them out in a fashion that will bring credit to them and to the House. and to the new Minis ters who have been appoint ed since the House last met I congratulate them on their appointments. I real ize that they have very difficult tasks to perform serv ing in this government but I am confident that they will carry out those duties to the best of their abil ity. Mr. Sp eaker.

I want to address. principally. the financial management of this government and the government's handling of financial informat ion. I spe cifically want to deal with four areas. First of all, their presentation of informat ion. which has been mentioned in this House repeatedly, that this government has a credibility problem I believe that some of that problem comes. Mr. Speaker. from their handling of financial informat ion at the public level I'm not spea king about the official accounts of government or that sort of thing, but the public pres entation of the situation that prevails.

Sec ondly, I want to talk ab out the deficit, some of the reasons for the deficit I want to talk about spend ing controls, and I want to talk about the government's boi rowing record. Mr. Speaker, a year ago when the Minister of Finance assumed his responsibility he said at the time that he. "found the projected 1981 -82 deficit frighten ing." That's the quotation from the Minister of Finance in the Free Press of December 3rd. 19 81 . ·a frighten ing deficit" Today. Sir. we find that the Minister of Finance describes a $498 million projected deficit as appr opriate. That appl ies a double standard.

Sir. that I don't think is in the best interests of the province the best interests of the government for that matter. The deficit and the reasons for it deserve careful scrutiny and debate and I reg ret that to this point I have not heard serious debate from the members opposite on this issue. Let's move to the question then on the presentation of the information and on the credib ility question. and I don't need to do any more in this regard Mr Speaker. than refer to the editorial which appeared in the Winnipeg Sun on Thursday. yesterday, which simply said.

"Spar e us the game s and rhetoric · It ended up, and I'll 1ust read the last paragraph into the record. Mr. Speaker. The last parag raph says. "What is alarming is the way in which the Paw ley Government has played deficit peek-a-boo with the populous. Sp are us the game s and the rhethoric. the little white lies and the evasions. We all realize the economy is in trouble.

If you are prepared to level with us through out the troubled debates there would be less tempta tion to fudge and obfuscate until it gets so bad nothing will save us and we'll wind up with the kind of mess Ren Levesque is faced with in Quebec " Sir. I sub scribe to that position put forward by the Win nipeg Sun. Let me just give a few examples of how this has been done over the past year: of the talk there was when this government came to power a year ago. that when they got a look at the books how terrible things were. Actua lly the truth of the matter.

Sir. was that I believe there was a S253 million deficit being pro jected at the end of the secon:J quarter l0st ye?.1· ?.mi it

Friday, 10 December, 1982 ------- -·--- ------- ------- ---- �---- turned out that there was a $251 million deficit. There was nothing misleading in the information despite the quotation, despite the statement by the First Minister that the public had been misled. Si r, that simply was not true: it was not true. Mr.

Speaker, as an example, and I quote from the Report on Business on Januar y 25t h, 19 82. this is where the Minister of Finance was being quoted as saying that the deficit may reach 300 million when the current fiscal year ends, "The increase likely will occur because the Conservatives juggle d figures when they announced the $253 million projection just before their departure, Mr Sch roeder said." Now. Mr. Spe aker. that was only the beginning of a long series of disturbing distortions of the facts.

I refer you back once again to the public statement with respect to the Estimates that were tabled in this House last Februar y when the Minister of Finance announced proudly that there would be a 14 .4 percent increase in spending and that headline ap peared across the front of the Winnipeg Free Press, therefore, the govern ment's objective was achieved. The impression was left. But how that had been done. Mr.

Speaker, was that they had changed the system of presentation, that rather than doing it in a manner that had been done for years in what is referred to as 'print over print,' this government changed it to compare their initial projec tion to the final projection for the previous fiscal year to get that projection of 14 .4 percent. We warned them at the time, Sir . that would come back to haunt them; that indeed the deficit, that the spending levels of the government, would be much higher than that before the year was over; and indeed that has turned out to be the case. Sir .

At present. using their method of the presentation, it now shows that spending is up 18 .9 percent over what it was a year ago. Why should this type of information be withheld from the pu blic? Why can't the govern ment be honest in fac ing it? We have a very serious financial situation in this province. and it is not going to be helped by the government attempting to make the situation appear to be something other than it is. Again. the editorial says. "Spar e us the game s and the rhetoric." I even used par t of my grievance last year in April, Mr.

Sp eaker, to bring this to the attention of the government at the time and they have persisted in it, Sir, ever since The most recent example of it was the statement that the Minister of Finance made in this House when he tabled the Quarterly Report and it's also contained in the press release which he made at the time.

Let me give you a few examp les The statement which the Minister of Finance made and the statement as repeated in the press release says, "Our revised estimates of total expenditure for 19 82-83 fiscal year are within 1.8 percent of the initial Estimates." Now what do the initial Estima tes mean, Sir, if they aren't the Estima tes that the government tabled in Febr uary when the House opened? Those are the initial Estimates. In fact. when one looks at the projection of spending for this year and compares it to that, the fig ure is 3.8 percent. not 1.8 percent. Look up the figu res and calculate it.

What purpose is served to the people of this province by presenting that kind of mislead ing information and persisting in trying to 161 leave the impression that indeed they're able to accomplish something which they clearly are not doing and that even a superficial analysis of the information will show that it is not the case. The press release, Mr. Speaker, the deficit had been forecast at $343 .5 million in the Budget. That's incor rect, Sir. The deficit had been forecast at $334 million. Sur e, maybe it's only $10 million; that's perhaps not much in the perspective of a $500 million deficit.

But why can't the government simply present its informa tion in a fact ual manner so that we know and the people know what has been happening in the pro vince? I implore the Minister of Finance to adopt a more straightforward fashion of presenting informa tion and justifying his actions. There's one further example in this area. Sir. We have had numerous occasions in the House where the Minister of Finance and others have defended their payr oll tax by saying that the Chamb ers of Comme rce imposed a sales tax increase, and then go on by impli cation to say they, therefore favoured a payr oll tax.

What the Cham bers of Com merce were saying is, we don't want any tax increase. Sir, that kind of (Interjection)- I agree, I agree. Who wants it? Nobody wants it. but don't try and misrepresent somebody's situation to appear to be something which it is not. Sir, I would like to move on to deal with the deficit. The Minister of Finance has made much of the decrease in revenues and he has been able, once agai n, to leave the impression on the public that the increase in the deficit is due to a decrease in revenues. Let me give the House a couple of facts. Mr. Speaker.

One is, that since the initial Estimates of govern ment were tab led in this House last Februar y, the government has since added $10 6 million in spend ing. Sinc e that time, projected revenues have declined by $10 3 million. Sir. the increase in spending since the Minister brought in his Estimates and proudly an nounced that he only had a 14 .4 percent increase, the government has added $1 06 million. The projected revenue on the other hand, is only down $10 3 million. Sir, let me also speak about the fact that the revenues are down and I want this to be fully under stood by the members opposite.

If they refer to Hans ard on 28 June, 19 82, they will find that in a discussion of the Estimates of the Minister of Finance, we raised the question with the Minister as to his estimate on corporate income tax, and you will all be aware that is the area which the government has now announced they are going to suffer an $80 million decline in revenue. I asked the Minister of Finance on that day, Sir. I said, "Mr. Chairman, on the matter of corporat ion income tax. there's an estimate this year of $14 5,2 73,0 00.00.

The actual revenue for 19 81 -82 was only $114 million, which was $1 7 million below the estimate for '81 -82." How accurate does the Minister think that projection will be under today's circum stances? The Minister came back and indicated, "W ell, the estimate was based on the Federal Government estimate." I persisted in asking him agai n. Mr. Sp eaker. We're on Page 3636. I said, "D oes the Minister believe that in view of the financial circumstances in the province, in the country today, that he actually will receive more money in '82-83 than was received in '81 -82?" He said.

Friday, 10 December, 1982 · ��--��--��· "Well, if there's a change we'll know so by the end of the sum mer." I came back agai n, Mr. Speaker, and said, "I would have to think, Mr. Chairman, that on the basis of the past record that we might well be lucky to receive even as much in '82-83 as we received in '81- 82, rather than being able to look forward to receiving $14 5 million." Sir, we also questioned the Minister of Finance on other areas. Let me tell you that we warned the Minis ter of Finance that he would not get this level of revenues.

We warned him; it's on the record, but the government had estimated an increase of 14 .4 percent in their revenue for 19 82-83. Now, what reason would the government have had to believe that they would be able to have an increase of 14 .4 percent in their revenues, even recognizing the fact that they had introduced the payr oll tax which was supp osed to bring in some $70 million. They still were estimating revenues that would have been higher than the aver age of the previous four years.

So, Si r, the government cannot truthfu lly say that the deficit which the y are fac ing today is a conse quence of reduced revenues, because those revenues were overestimated to begin with, and the expendi tures which the government has brought in since the initial Estimates are much higher than the decrease in revenues. I would also point out, and we've said on many occasions that the government should have controlled its spending, the government continually says where, which of course is the natural response.

I simply point out to them that since the Estimates were table d they've brought in another $10 6 million worth of spending. That exceeds the payr oll tax by $36 mil lion. If you had stuck with the Estimates that the Minis ter of Finance brought into this House in Februar y there would have been no need for the payr oll tax, but those expenditure Estimates have gone up by $10 6 million. The Minister of Natural Resources last year said that there was a great deal of fat in the Estimates that were presented to them by the previous government. Where is the fat? Has it been cut?

Have the members been able to cut that fat because it's necessary? This province is facing an alarm ing financial situation, Mr. Speaker. It is an alarm ing situation. Let me give a few more facts, Mr. Speaker, that over the four years of our administration, revenues rose an average of 10 .8 percent a year on a reduced tax base, 10 .8 percent a year. Even today, on the basis of the governments own projections, revenues are still pro jected to rise a 9. 7 percent which is not that far below an average of 10 .8.

In two of the years of our govern ment, our revenue increases were 7.3 percent and 9 percent and we did not face the kind of deficit which this government faces today. Now, what that means is that this government is going to have to take some very serious action. They're going to have to face up to what is happen ing in this province, and spare us the rhetoric and the little white lies as the editorial in the Winnipeg Sun states.

One other fact that should be of interest to the members opposite in examining their financial situa tion is this: that the inflation rate in the four years of our government was 9. 7 percent Our revenues only rose on the average by slightly more than 1 percent higher than the rate of inflation.

Now, that's not much 162 of an edge to make the kinds of expansions in services that we were able to bring about; but in 19 82 accord ing to information provided by the Minister of Finance a few weeks ago. inflation this year is expected to be 8 percent, which means that the government's revenues are still projected to rise 1.7 percentage points higher than the rate of inflation of this province. That should indicate to the members opposite that they've got a serious problem with this deficit the size that it is.

I am sure I don't need to point out to them that the pro jected deficit for this year is going to be larger in one year than the four years of accumu lated deficits of our government. Unfortunately, the Minister for Government Servi ces says it's a sign of the times. Mr. Speaker, I plead with the members opposite to examine carefully the financial situation that they're in. The First Minister this morning, I gather on a radio program, said a year ago that no one could have foreseen the economic circumstances that we find ourselves in. I want to go on record right now, Mr.

Speaker, as telling the First Minister and his colleagues that this province is in an alarm ing financial situation, and that situation could deteriorate over the next two or three years to the point where this government will not be able to pay its bills. The Attorney-General says, it's nonsense. Mr. Speaker, the problem is that there is a huge borrowing requirement that this government is going to have to make.

The Minister of Finance didn't have at his fin gertips this morning the refinancing alone, which the government is going to have to undertake next year but, if my recollection is correct, it's in the range of a billion dollars for next year.

The deficit, on the basis of information which is now available, the deficit next year is going to go to between $800 million and a billion dollars, because what is going to happen is that if this government's expenditures increase by 20 percent over what their present projections are - and I rather believe those projections may well turn out to be low- if it increases by 20 percent, they will add another $340 million to the $500 -million deficit which is al ready projected, because revenues, if we assume that they rise at 10 percent which, under today's circumstances, I would say is highly unlikely, I think that's a high estimate.

I will tell you why - because this year the government has experienced decreases in corporate income tax even if there is a turnaround in the economy and corporations beg in once again to make money there will be a lag before they beg in to pay taxes at the rate that they were previously. I warned the Minister of Finance of that in June and he didn't take my warning. I now warn the Fir st Minister and the Minister of Finance and their colleagues that they're going to face a $800 million to $1 billion deficit next year and how ever the government presents it, Sir, is not going to change the fact.

I implore them once agai n, don't sta rt to change the presentation of it now because it isn't going to fool the bond rating agencies, it isn't going to fool the lenders, so present it in the way that it is now being presented; and let me tell you why. The members opposite don't seem to understand why there should be combined accounting of current and capital. The reason is very simple, Sir . A province cannot put its assets forward in the way that a corpo-

Friday, 10 December, 1982 ��--��·�� ration can use its assets to back its loans. The foreign lenders -(Int erjection)- Can you tell the Minister of Agricultur e? The foreign lenders cannot come in and take away a hydro dam that the province has. They cannot come in -(I nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker. this is a crucial point for the government to understand and I would hope that the Minister of Agricultur e would at least hear me out - he doesn't have to agree with me - but I'm telling him the reason is that the assets which the Provincial Government has are not the sort of assets that a lender is going to seize when the government can no longer pay its bills. This is not like Chrysler or Ford or some one where it's possible that if they go into bankruptcy that someone at least has some assets that they can take over. What is important to the government is how great is their cash flow?

Their cash flow goes toward paying this deficit whether it's for operating or whether it's for capital, there is no difference. The problem that the memb ers are going to face, within the next year or two, is that next year when that deficit goes to between $800 million and $1 billion - and it will unless the government takes serious action either to control its spending or to increase its revenues - it will go to that level. You will then have perhaps $600 million to $700 million agai nst operat ing. If you want to separ ate them out and call it operat ing, fine, do so.

Call it operati ng, but the deficit is going to be $600 million to $700 million and when the economists like Dr. Mason from the university say that deficits don't matter - or we shouldn't be too con cerned about them is perhaps a more accurate des cription - let me give you some exam ples of the size of the increase in revenue which the government will have to have to offset that deficit, to get it back down under control.

I point out, Sir , that in 19 83 the entire projected revenues, and these were pointed out -they were high at the time and it's since been proven to be correct - but the entire revenue for corporation income tax and individual income tax was $727 million. That means that to match tha t $600 million to $700 million on operating that you are going to have next year, you will have to have revenues equal to the entire revenue that the government now receives from corporate income tax and from personal income tax. Another example would be the amount of money that the government gets through equa lization.

This year it's estimated to be $431 million. The entire amount of money that the government gets from equalization is not going to even equal half of the deficit that this government is going to face next year if something drastic is not done, either by way of expenditure controls or increasing revenues. The Minister of Finance seems belatedly to have recognized that there is a necessity for controlling expenditures. Again, I come back to the shading of the facls or the refusing to recognize reality by the Minis ter of Finance.

I have heard him say that, while expen diture controls may now be necessary, they were not necessary over the past four years. Well, they were necessary and I'd like to refer back to the Budget which I presented in this House in 19 81 . I made a projection in that Budget which literally brought every memb er on this side of the House at that time to their feet, they were so outraged at the projection.

They said at the time, "It 's difficult to grasp the full significance of these figures without reference to the situation that could have occurred had our government not acted decisively to restore sound budgetary procedures.

We have estimated by project ing the average rate of growth in provincial expendi tures in the last four complete fiscal years under the previous government and using revenue estimates, adjusted by adding back the tax cuts we implemented since 19 77, that by 19 80-81 the Province of Manitoba would have faced accumulative deficit for the past three years of more than $1.5 billion." I point out to the members that that level of expendi ture was 20 percent and in the Quarterly Report tabled by the Minister this week, their level of expenditure this year is already up to 18 .9- the revenues are lower than they were in the Schreyer years -and this projec tion is going to be witnessed by this House and by this province within the next couple of years if something very significant doesn't happen on the part of the government.

The Minister of Finance should have recognized when he took over that it was necessary to implement spending controls. He belatedly acknowledges that now, that he's going to begin to control expenditures. But unfortu nately we are left with a very definite impression that these expenditure controls are not real expenditure controls, these are tokenism. The Minister put out a press release saying, "Schr oeder adds further expenditure controls." He was su ccessful, Mr.

Speaker, because the next day the CBC on their radio news, their lead-in item was, "Government implements expenditure controls." Not that there was a $498 million deficit, but that the government was implementing expenditure controls. But let us look briefly at what those expenditure con trols are. There are things like "out-of-province travel will be limited." Out-of-province travel - I wonder if that includes Mr. Cherniack, the Chairman of Manit oba Hydro, who has been traveling around the world at the expense of the taxpayers of Manitoba while they borrow money.

Sur e they should have implemented · expenditure controls and sure they should have had it on travel but it should have happ ened and it should have been continued from the day that they took over government. 163 "No further addition to the government's vehicle fleet." That's not going to do much to $498 million, Mr. Spe aker, and it's only going to postpone the day when they have to face it. "Treasury Board must appr ove any new road con struction projects, land acquisition and drainage pro jects." That's always the way Treasury Board oper ates.

If their Treasury Board had been operating in a way where new road construction projects, land acquisition and drainage could have gone ahead without Treasury Board control then, Sir, their spend ing was out of control within months of them having taken over, because that is standard practice in Treasury Board and why put this forward? Spare us the games and rhetoric; tell us what's going on. Finally, and perhaps this is -(I nterjection)- how much time do I have, Mr. Sp eaker? Mr. Spe aker, this

10 December, 1982 may have been a Freudian slip. He said finally, finally -(Interject ion)- MR. SPEAKER: Or der please MR. A. RANSOM: The final point, Mr. Speaker, in their expenditures listed under 'Expenditure Controls' is: "We intend to limit new hiring to all but the most essential positions." To all but the most essential, this really lays it on the line as to how they're going to control expenditures; they're going to fill all the non essential ones and leave the essential unfilled. Unfor tunately, that tends to reflect the record of the government. Mr.

Speaker, I want to make one brief reference, I don't have time to go into it in detail, I will on some other occasion do so. I asked the Minister of Finance last March why he was borrowing so much money. I said, "Are you borrowing money now because you know you're going to need it later?" Because we had been following a strategy of short-term borrowing, waiting for the long-term market to become more favourable. The Minister of Finance denied that. Now, we have in a publ ication by Mcleod, Young, Weir, the same publ ication, Mr. Sp eaker, from which the Minis ter of Finance quoted last night.

Mcleod, Young, Weir say, "Table 3 indicates the province borrowed in excess of its public mar ket requirement in fiscal 19 82, adding about $19 3 million to reserves." Now, Mr. Spe aker, what has happened since then? That government went to the American mar ket, bor rowed approxi mately $200 million U.S. at 14 .75 per cent when they didn't need to go to the mar ket, and it was contrary to the plans which the government had had to be short-term until it turned around. Mr.

Sp eaker, I've got a sheaf of information from financial institutions here from March and February and Janu ary that said interest rates were going to go do wn. They borrowed at 14 . 75 percent, today it would be perhaps 3 percent below that. That means on that size of a loan, Mr. Speaker, there is an annual excess cost to this province of over $7 million. Over the 15 years of that agreement, if that level of interest persists on the short-term borrowing, that's going to cost about $250 million. Mr.

Speaker, in concluding my remarks I want to warn the members opposite. so that the First Minister cannot say he has not been warned, that the problem they face if they don't get things under control is that within the foreseeable future they may well encounter a situation where they will not be able to borrow money to pay their bills. The services which this pro vince has built up over the decades will not be able to be maintained. That is now a possibility, I'm not say ing it's a probabil ity, it is a very real possibility. What this government should do, Mr.

Sp eaker, is they should be absolutely forthright in their presentation of information; they should prepare long-term projec tions on what different interest rates, different values of the Canadian dollar and different growth rates in the economy will mean to the fiscal position of this government What's more important is they should prepare spending strategies to match. because what'll happen - I wish the honourable memb ers opposite would listen because I want them to fully understand that 164 what can happen is that there will not be a significant amount of warning to the government.

They will one day go to the well and the well will be dry; that is what can happen. I'm told that if you go to Cleveland today, which has been described as looking like Munich in 19 42, you can find out what happens when a govern ment can't borrow anymor e. If this happens to any government they will have to have their spending plans in place; they will have to know what to imple ment just the way you have to know what to implement if there's a serious flood in this province - do it.

The other thing that the government should do-and they can do it this year- is bring in their Estima tes and their Budget at the same time. Tell us what your spending plans are and tell us how you plan to raise the money because with a lag. Mr. Speaker. there is too much opportunity for misunderstanding what's happening. Sir, I apprecia te the opportunity to address what is an extremely important subject to Manitoba and I trust that the members opposite will pay attention to the very serious situation which faces the province. MR. SPE AKER: The Hono ur able Mini ster of Agricultur e. HOM. B.

URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I want to say it's certainly a pleasure to take

part in the Throne Speech Debate and to see you in the Chair.

I hope that the kind of turmoil we have put you through in the last while will not continue through the course of this Sess ion and I wish you all the very best, as well as to my colleague who has taken on the role of Dep uty Speaker and to the Mover and the Seconder. my con gratulations for a very fine speech in this Legislature. on the Throne Speech Debate - I know I've wished them that before - but the colleagues who have been appoi nted to the Executive Council, they have cer tainly added and will continue to add their expertise and their experience in the affairs of our fine province. Mr.

Speaker, we just heard the former Minister of Finance, the present Memb er for Turtle Mountain. giving the members on this side his assessment of what should be done with respect to the financial affairs of the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Sp eaker. one idea I should point out at the outset that he has raised. and I find some merit to that. that we should consider in terms of tabling the spend ing Estimates of our government and the Budget at the same time. I would hope that my colleague. the Minister of Finance, will take that to heart. But it will be an interesting exercise, Mr.

Speaker, as I stand here because I see the Leader of the Op position. the Memb er for Souris -Killarney saying the Budget has to be tightened, it has to be squeezed. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, my colleague. the Minister of Energy, when he quoted from the survey of who the Conservative person who will be com ing to the Con vention in Manitoba, who does he represent and what do they represent. Truly. truly the Memb er for Turtle Mountain and the Leader of the Op position represent those kind of people.

Tory incarnate. according to the survey. wants Ottawa to cut spending on day care. unemployment insurance. family allowances and JOb creation programs. He wants the government. natu rally. to reduce taxes on compan ies. There is no great

Friday, 10 December, 1982 surprise. I quote again from that article. Mr. Sp eaker. they are. by their own words in this survey, "agai nst increased spending on hospital care. Medicare. post secondary education and the poor." Mr. Sp eaker. it will be a very interesting exercise dealing with our Estimates this coming year I want to tell you that because. Mr. Sp eaker. while these two gentlemen sta nd up and may be one or two others say you have to reduce. you have to control spending. every one of the other colleagues. some of them who are here. some of them ar en't: we want more spend ing.

We want more roads; we want more drainages; we want more help. Mr. Sp eaker. and in that process they can't have it both ways. Mr. Sp eaker. At least their Dep uty Leader knows that; at least the Honourable Memb er for Fort Gar ry realizes that. He is the only one that at least can get up and say. look. I'm really not with these guys. I believe that we should have some Progressive leg islation. We have to do some progressive things. but I really am not with these guys. because they really don't represent what true Progressives are. I know they represent the Conserva tive elements. Mr.

Sp eaker. but they certainly don't represent the Progressives in our party. Mr. Sp eaker. the Memb er for Turtle Mountain talked about lack of credibility in the public presentation of the financial accounts of this province He at least made it clear. not in the presentation of the figures. but in the way that we have presented them, Mr. Sp eaker. I believe that if ever there was a realistic ap proach and an understanding of the situation that we face in this country. it is by people here.

We would not have tinkered. and we told the former Minister of Finance not to tinker. with the accounts of the Pro vince of Manitoba; not to try and make political points in changing the accounting system to suit their own benefit: that he would get caught. Mr. Sp eaker. And he did get caug ht. and in fact. in his speech today. he went on so fa r as to admit that what he did - he didn't want to admit it - he said. no we have our reasons and these are our reasons why we put capital and current spending together That notwithstanding. we are spending for the future. We want to account for all those funds today. Mr.

Speaker. He went so far as to admit in his speech that really what he did was really not accurate. Mr Speaker. Well. Mr. Sp eaker. maybe I didn't interpret the honourable member. according to the Honourable Memb er for Sturgeon Creek, that he didn't admit. but implicit in his comments that I got from -(I nter jection)- well. that's what I was saying, Mr. Speaker, that was my

interpretation of his speech. Ah, Mr. Sp eaker. now the honourable members say that my

interpretation doesn't mean a heck of a lot. Well to them I -(I nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Sp eaker. we have in the West ern World and in this country and in this Legislature, it seems there is not only a preoccupation. but there is a phobia building up. that unless governments. in fact. retrench - tota lly retrench - in terms of providing ser vices to their citizens. we are on the verge of collapse, Mr. Sp eaker We are on the verge of collapse and that there will be a calam ity within a year or two and there 165 will be no more. The governments will collapse. Mr. Speaker.

You know it seems that kind of mentality and I am not. I have to admit. not much of a historian having been quoted by the Leader of the Op position as one of those that doesn't have a backgr ound. having the right backgr ound. Mr. Sp eaker. that what we are finding is that this kind of mentality is spreading across the country. But remember. Mr. Speaker. that in the '30s there was also that kind of mentality. The only difference that one can relate to is that the rate of inflation was not quite as high in the late ·20s and in the '30s as it is today, but the mentality was the same.

How did we supp osedly get out of that mess. Mr. Sp eaker? How did we get out of this mess? We went into a war, Mr. Sp eaker We bailed goods and services that we flew and we shot them out of the sky and then we put people to work building ammu ni tions, building war planes, building tanks. building guns, Mr. Sp eaker; that's what we did. We went and we borrowed and we spent millions and billions of dollars to put people back to work. Now we have the mental ity. Mr. Sp eaker, that there is no war but we have to retrench, Mr. Sp eaker. Retrench where? Health care services, education, hospitals. roads?

Is that what they're talking ab out. Mr. Speaker? Is that really what they're talking abo ut? What are they talking about? It will be a very interesting exercise. Mr. Speaker, wl1en the Estima tes of the government are going to be table d, when we resume the Sess ion after this recess. Mr. Sp eaker, if anyone. and the Memb er for Turtle Mountain said that the government is refusing to rec ognize the reality, or the Minister of Finance is refus ing to recognize the reality of the financial situation. Mr.

Sp eaker If there was any Minister or any member in this House was as serious in terms of the financial position of this province, I would say I would take my hat off to him. There is no one any more serious with respect to recognizing the situation as it exists not only in Ma nitoba, but across this country, in terms of the financial needs and the financial abil ity of this province and our country, Mr. Sp eaker, than the pres ent Minister of Finance, and I take my hat off to him. Mr. Sp eaker.

I have to say I was indeed pleasantly surprised by the speech of my colleague, the Member for Elmwood. dealing with the potential candidates. I think he missed one or two, Mr. Speaker. in his analy sis and I recognize that one in the midst. that re ally should be taken seriously, is our colleagur:. the Memb er for Morris, who I think I have to show some credibility and he has a lot of good sense in terms of making a potential. I would add one more to the list that he shouldn't be ruled out of the race that is com ing for the Member for Morris - absolutely not. Mr.

Sp eaker, the Leader of the -(I nterjection)- I'm afraid so. Mr. Speaker. I believe I'm being teased by the Mem ber for Lakeside. I will not respond to the comment that he makes. Mr. Sp eaker. the Leader of the Op position. in his reply to the Sp eech from the Throne. I would say has really impressed us with his - and I would say his sterling performance in reply He has really presented a performance. since he has expressed a concern about the level of debate in this House and last night was certainly no exception. I will try on this occasion to - I don't know if I can. I hope I won't - to match the

Friday, 10 December, 1982 ��--��-��- high standard that he has set for us. However, it certainly will be difficult for myself to match the level of character assassination and mud slinging and worn-out cliches that have become the Leader of the Op position's trademark, Mr. Speaker. Agai n, I point out to what has happened in the last couple of days, his own speech and his own col leagues, but I certainly can take consolation that even most of his colleag ues are not in the same class as their Leader, even though some of them want to try, especially someone like the Member for Pem bina.

I want to say that the Deputy Leader actually, Mr. Speaker, I was surprised. in fact I was shocked. that he would try and emulate H1e low tactics of his leader. The other one that really also shocked me was the Member for Tuxedo, in terms of going, what I would say - I didn't expect that from him. He presents the image of being certainly a reasonable person and in all fights would hit above the belt, but this time I think he was down somewhere around the knees, Mr. Speaker. in the speeches that both of them made.

The Leader of the Op position has expressed con cern about the backgrounds of members on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker. He refers to us as "that breed, that odd collection of people." He says, "we really don't have the backgr ound to govern." Well, I have to congratu late the Leader of the Opp osition. I would have to say that he chose his parents well. Unfortunately, he may be right. Not too many members on this side of the House were born with silver spoons in their mouths, Mr. Speaker. I would have to say that. That's a condition I would say we share with the vast majority of Manitobans.

Like many people in this pro vince, all of us aren't intellectuals. I certainly am not- I speak for myself. We don't all live in -(l nterjection) well, yeah, high expensive homes and in the liner areas of our city. The Leader of the Opp osition, Mr. Speaker, should actually look around him. All the people of Manitoba don't wear the pinstripe suits and they all aren't big farmers. As strange as it may seem, fvlr. Speaker, there are many Manitobans who really don't own tl1eir own businesses. There are many of us that don't.

So, he looks down his nose at many people on this side of this House, just as he looks down his nose at many of the citizens of this province who also don't have the kind of backgr ounds that he would appr ove of. I might add, .Mr. Sp eaker, that if the Leader of the Op position was born with a silver spoon, if he was, in his mouth, the biggest mistake that his parents made was to remove it. Yes, Mr. Speaker, they should have left it there but, although at this point in history. they may have had to replace it with a silver shovel. That's what they may have had to do.

The Leader of the Op position, he's something like the 18 th Century philosopher, John Locke, who believes in majority rule. It is majority rule of the prop erty class. Rule by those with the proper backgr ounds. It certainly doesn't include those he has slurred in his Throne Spee ch, like the workers; the gypsies; individ uals with Grade 11 education and those of us with improper backgr ounds. He states that the New Demo cratic Party is unfit to govern by backgr ound. I wonder what he means by this? What does he mean by this?

When you compare the backgr ounds of the representatives of the two parties in this House, 166 one thing I have to tell you, Mr. Speaker, is striking. By contrast to the Conservatives, we in the NOP, are well represented by various racial and ethnic groups in this House. Mr. Speaker, I would say it is the unity of our group drawn from such diverse social and economic and ethnic backgr ounds tha t gives our party its strength here and in Manitoba. I want to put it to the Leader of the Op position. Am I unfit to govern because of my Uk rainian backgr ound?

Is my friend, the colleague from Rup ertsland, unfit to govern because of his Native backgr ound? Is my friend and colleague, the Member for Burrows, unfit to govern because of his Phillipine backgr ound, Mr. Speaker? Is that what he is speaking about? Mr. Speaker, it's my view that this party is lit to govern precisely because it represents the people of diverse backgr ounds that make up this fine province c11 ours. You know, apparently it galls the Leader of the Opp osition that labour leaders and labour in general support the New Democratic Party. You know - (I nterjection)- Well, Mr.

Sp eaker, referring to the Economic Summit in Portage, the Leader of the Opp osition - he neatly makes a distinction between their labour leaders and good representation from the Chamb er of Comm erce, Mr. Speaker. We don't make that representation and that distinction; that's what he makes. Of course, Mr. Speaker, everyone knows where the Leader of the Opp osition stands. The good leaders of business as opposed to those leaders who support the NOP are only the ones who are fit to rule. That's what he is really getting at, Mr. Speaker. If I was John Locke, Mr.

Speaker, I guess I would be appla ud ing in my grave. Mr. Sp eaker, finally, it must be highly annoying to the Leader of the Opp osition to see a contingent ol highly capable New Democrats who happen to be women. You know, in his response to the Speech from the Throne, he referred to 'that breed across the way,' Mr. Speaker. His comment made me recall what I would say, his ill··advised slur agai nst women, when he assured the world that Tories liked women - they were good breeders. We won't let him forget that one. Women and all human beings with any l1urnanity were offended by that statement.

I want to E!ssure this House that it's the women of the New Democratic caucus, along with other individuals from so-called improper backgr ounds, give this party its strength, Mr. Speaker. The Conservative Party in characteristic fashion condemns our government for its lack of prog rams. Then when we bring in programs, they become con cerned about this government inflating the deficit. That's been the name of the game. That is the name of the ga me. They even complain about the fact that we aren't listening to the people of Manitoba. Let me assure you, Mr.

Speaker, and all the members oppo site, that we have listened to the people and we are continuing to listen to the people of Manitoba. That's why we were elected, only for that reason. Yes, Mr. Speaker, because that's really been our ap proach to government. Mr. Speaker, now we have the Honourable Member for Morris. We will see what kind of spending he wants to increase when he gets up and discusses the Esti mates of the various departments. While we firmly believe in working towards the creation of a more

Friday, 10 December, 1982 equitable and humane society, Mr. Speaker, we have to admit that we really don't have all the answers, and we do admit that. We don't have the answers to all the problems that face us but this is certainly in contrast to that used by the Conservative Party. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opp osition often declares that he knows what is right and his party knows, or they think they know what is best for the people of Manitoba. After all, there sits the party which is fit by backgr ound to govern. But as I've said, we here in the NDP believe in the consu ltative pro cess.

We believe in it and we will continue to use it Mr. Sp eaker, before we introduced a plan for Manit oba beef, I have to say we consulted extensively with the producers of this province. Ultimately, I would have to say we've developed as effective and popular a plan produced basically by the farmers of this pro vince that anyone can find anywhere in this country, which was produced as a result of that consultative process. What did you people do for those same pro ducers? What did you do for them?

They asked and they pleaded with you that they were in difficulty, that they were in trouble, that they needed help. Not until Novemb er6 th, Mr. Speaker, was the committee called to meet, that would get us out of trouble because we have a difficult dilemma. Right during the election campaign they held their first mee ting. -(Inter jection)- Pardon me, what did the memb er say? I want to show you when that comm ittee met It met on November 6th, 19 81. During what period, Mr. Speaker? During the election campaign. But, Mr.

Speaker , in the summer prior to the elec tion, their organ ization came to government and said, 'We need financial help,' the organization that they set up. Do you know what the Minister of Agricu lture at that time said to them? 'There is no support for the progra m, go away, go away, we are turning you back, go away.' Mr. Sp eaker, what happened with this group? They said there was no recognition, that they didn't listen. What did they do? They introduced a piece of legisla tion that forced every beef producer in this province to belong to and finance an organization set up by the Conservatives. Mr.

Speaker, talk about listening. But why did they do this? I guess, Mr. Speaker, because in the mid '70s when there was a vote, a majority of producers voted against the establishment of this kind of an organiza tion. That's why they were listening because a few years before that, producers voted agai nst any kind of an association, but we wanted to listen to the producers. 'We'd better just ram it down their throats,' and that's what they did. Mr. Sp eaker, who conducted the vote? -(Int er jection)- It was asked for by the producers of this province and this government accommodated that vote. Mr.

Speaker, that wasn't a vote on the marketing board; it was a vote on the association. There was more than one vote, the member should remember. If he doesn't remember, I'll remind him. How did they listen to producers? They brought in a piece of legisla tion, you belong. Well, Mr. Speaker, that's how they listened to the producers. Mr. Sp eaker, it really is logical for this arrogant and dictatorial Conservative group to shove their plan down the throats of all beef producers.

In response to concerns expressed by many farmers, homeowners and owners of small businesses, we introduced the Interest Rate Relief Program and the program, as all the members know, is aimed at assist ing those in severe financial distress. We adm itted - and I told him last Sess ion and I told all the members of the House, that the prog ram is not a large prog ram . It will not help everyone, Mr. Sp eaker; it could not. We knew that and we said that publicly. But the Op posi tion is really not happy with our efforts.

In criticizing the farm component the members opposite say that there are no farmers, that farmers earning $70,000 or less in gross sales don't exist. You know, we didn't concoct those figures;wWe didn't hide or develop those figures. We used Stats Canada figures and Revenue Canada data that showed us, that told us that between 70 and 80 percent of Manito ba's farmers gross $70,000 or less. Mr. Speaker, maybe the Conservatives should start meeting some of those farmers.

Maybe they should go out and start meeting some of those farmers who don't exist because maybe again these farmers may not have the back ground tha t's really considered suitable by the Conservatives. I have to tell you, it takes the Memb er for Pembina - you know, just last week in the Throne Speech debate, Mr. Sp eaker. Here, I'll quote the date from the Val ley Leader, December 8, 19 82, Mr. Speaker, where the Member for Pembina said that most southern Manit oba farmers are excluded from the plan. Mr. Speaker, I wrote the member in September because he wanted some details on the program.

Do you know where the bulk of the clients are from, Mr. Speaker ? From the area that is represented by the Memb er for Pem bina and the Member for Arthur: more than half of the people in the program are from their areas. They should maybe go around their ridings and meet some of those farmers that are being helped by this pro gram. We know that we can't help some of the large farmers that are in great dif

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-2-7
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 2nd hansardpdf 7.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6ffca656f8c7ae03a7202755841fad888e8bfdb8

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