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September 29, 2009

39th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2009-Sep-29 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Tuesday 29 September 2009 Mardi 29 septembre 2009

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AMENDMENT ACT (GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS TRADING), 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR

LA PROTECTION DE L'ENVIRONNEMENT (ÉCHANGE DE DROITS D'ÉMISSION

DE GAZ À EFFET DE SERRE)

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

JOB CREATION

ONTARIO ECONOMY

TAXATION

GOVERNMENT SPENDING

JOB CREATION

CITY OF OTTAWA

TAXATION

WINDSOR ENERGY CENTRE

YOUTH SERVICES

NORTHERN ONTARIO HERITAGE FUND

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

MANUFACTURING AND FORESTRY SECTOR JOBS

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

ABORIGINAL RIGHTS

ANTI-SMOKING LEGISLATION

WORKPLACE SAFETY

USE OF QUESTION PERIOD

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

FRANCO-ONTARIAN FLAG /

DRAPEAU FRANCO-ONTARIEN

DURGA PUJA

WORLD SCHOOL MILK DAY

GLOBAL STICKS

TOWNSHIP OF UXBRIDGE

RAFFAELE MONTEMURRO

RIDING OF SAULT STE. MARIE

FOREST INDUSTRY

OKTOBERFEST

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

MOTIONS

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

CORONER'S OFFICE

PETITIONS

TAXATION

DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES

AIR QUALITY

DOCTOR SHORTAGE

HOSPITAL FUNDING

TAXATION

GOVERNMENT SERVICES

GOVERNMENT SERVICES

SHARK FISHERY

TAXATION

TAXATION

TAXATION

TAXATION

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Good morning. Please remain standing for the Lord's Prayer, followed by a moment of silence for inner thought and personal reflection.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AMENDMENT ACT (GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS TRADING), 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR

LA PROTECTION DE L'ENVIRONNEMENT (ÉCHANGE DE DROITS D'ÉMISSION

DE GAZ À EFFET DE SERRE)

Resuming the debate adjourned on September 15, 2009, on the motion for second reading of Bill 185,

An Act to amend the Environmental Protection Act with respect to greenhouse gas emissions trading and other economic and financial instruments and market-based approaches / Projet de loi 185, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la protection de l'environnement en ce qui concerne l'échange de droits d'émission de gaz à effet de serre ainsi que d'autres instruments économiques et financiers et approches axées sur le marché.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Further debate? The member for Hamilton–Stoney Creek.

Mr. Paul Miller: Today I would like to talk about Bill 185 on second reading. Ontarians want to know that their children and grandchildren will have a healthy environment to live in. They know the threat of climate change is real. They want the Ontario government to act now, forcefully and effectively, to contribute its fair share to the global solution to address climate change. Bill 185 aims to set up a system to cap greenhouse gas emissions in Ontario. Combined with programs and policies to reduce such emissions, the government aims to reduce the GHG emissions by 15% below 1990 levels by 2020.

Our party has serious concerns, both about this bill and about the government's climate change plan in general. We are concerned that the government's plan is neither effective nor fair to Ontarians. I want to take some time today to speak about these weaknesses and suggest some better solutions for action against climate change.

Each year that passes, climate change becomes a greater threat to the health and economic well-being of Ontarians. Ontarians are already suffering the effects of global warming. Take, for instance, the increase in extreme weather events in the province. Just look at last summer and the events that took place: thousands of my Hamilton residents facing damages from flooded basements this July during a one-in-100-year downpour, a boy losing his life in Elmdale and hundreds losing their homes in Vaughan in August, as an unusually powerful storm ripped across southern Ontario.

Residents in Ottawa, Sarnia, Thunder Bay and Peterborough have all experienced damaging flooding events over the past 20 years, leading to the hundreds of millions of dollars in damages.

The David Suzuki Foundation shows that the frequency of natural disasters in Canada has tripled between the 1960s and the 1990s, at least in part because of warmer air associated with climate change. Ontarians want serious action from governments, and they don't think enough is being done at this time. According to the Harris/Decima poll released in August, 70% of Ontarians think that the environment should be as high a priority for governments as the economy, even during our current recession, and similar percentages of Ontarians say that the environment is more important to them now than it was 10 years ago.

The vast majority of Ontarians believe that we are not doing enough to address environmental issues.

But Ontarians are also worried that they will be negatively impacted by government actions to address environmental issues. Lower-income people, women, older people and people with less education are more worried that government actions on the environment will hurt them personally. These people are least able to recover from job loss and are hit hardest. Prices for food, electricity and basic necessities become a real problem. They fear that the government will let wealthier individuals and companies off the hook when it comes to the environment, as has been the case in the province.

I know that I have witnessed in the industries in Hamilton that the government is a little light on pollution and on pollution controls. They don't enforce or fine companies to the level that they should for some of the spills and environmental disasters that have taken place over the years. They really don't enforce the ministry rules in a lot of cases.

It's important to remember who has contributed most to greenhouse gas emissions in the first place. It hasn't been the single mother balancing two jobs and struggling to make ends meet. It hasn't been the laid-off factory worker who has to sell his three-bedroom house because he can't afford the mortgage. No. It's actually the richest Ontarians and Canadians who have seen their salaries and consumption rise even as most of us have struggled. Canadian economist Lars Osberg studied this and found that if it were not for the rising incomes of the richest Canadians and the increased consumption that has gone along with their grotesque wealth, Canada would be on track to meet its Kyoto targets.

While low- and middle-income people have contributed the least to climate change, they are hurt the most by taxing or capping carbon emissions because they can least afford price increases. Low- and middle-income people are also most affected by floods, heat waves and extreme cold weather because they can't afford air conditioners, basement waterproofing and proper insulation. As well, low- and middle-income people are least able to afford green and energy-efficient technologies even with the government rebates.

Ontarians want government action on climate change, but they want it to be effective and fair. Low- and middle-income people want to share in the opportunities provided by the new green economy and do not want to have to bear the burden of the problem they did not cause. The McGuinty government has had six years to develop a fair and effective climate change action plan, but it still doesn't have one. Yes, the government has set strong targets for greenhouse gas reductions, and we welcome those targets, but it's still not clear how these targets will be achieved.

In his assessment of the recent government progress report on climate change, the Ontario Environmental Commissioner, Gord Miller, said that while "quantifiable GHG reduction, fixed timelines and realistic targets are the cornerstone to any plan ... real numbers are absent from this plan." For example, Mr. Miller complained that "the report provides little in the way of detailed analysis to clarify or quantify how 10% of the 2014 GHG reduction target will be delivered through transportation-related initiatives." He has a reason to worry.

GHG emissions from road transportation have increased by 35% since 1990 in Ontario. According to Environment Canada, that is due to both urban sprawl and consumer preference for SUVs, vans and pickups. What do we see the McGuinty government doing on this front? Well, this spring it cut a "secret deal"—the words of a Toronto Star person—with developers, which spawned yet another urban sprawl north of the greenbelt in the Bradford-Barrie area.

In its 2009 budget, the McGuinty government allocated more spending on new and expanded highways than it did on public transit. The McGuinty government has allowed transit fares to rise and let government support for transit operation fall to the lowest in North America. The McGuinty government has accepted a 20-year transit plan for the greater Toronto area that will allow GHG emissions to rise by as much as 18% over the 2006 levels.

Instead of making public transit affordable, the McGuinty government is offering up rebates on a $40,000 electric car that still doesn't exist and which the vast majority of Ontarians won't be able to afford. So really, once again, we've got the cart before the horse.

They're offering rebates on cars that haven't even hit the market yet, so it's really not going to be beneficial to the population in any way, shape or form until those cars are out en masse, and I don't think that most of the people can afford them. So what impact that will have, I'm not sure. Instead of making public transit affordable, the government is offering up that rebate. Well, like I said, how many people can afford to spend $40,000 on a car? Not too many.

Other aspects of the government's so-called green plan are equally problematic. The recent announcement to close at least some coal plants next year is a welcome announcement—if still three years later than they originally promised it. However, the McGuinty government is bringing on a short-term energy gap by taking 10 or more years to build expensive and polluting nuclear plants instead of quick-to-deploy renewable energy. They will have to fill this gap with greenhouse-gas-emitting natural gas plants or possibly delays to the final phase-out of the coal plants.

Meanwhile, the government continues to fail to require that the OPA pursue all possible energy conservation in Ontario instead of just two thirds of it.

The government's home retrofit program continues to be a program for the select few who can afford to put thousands of dollars up front on insulation, high-efficiency furnaces and solar water heaters, and then navigate the complex rebate program. It's just out of touch for most people. That's why only one in 80 Ontario homeowners has taken advantage of the government's home retrofit program. A lot of people can barely afford to pay their hydro bill and can't afford to put food on the table, so these programs are not feasible unless they make some major restructuring to the amounts and the people it will help.

It's just not working because, like I said, in our present climate, a lot of people are out of work, a lot of people can't afford it, and it just isn't happening.

It is fitting that Mr. Smitherman launched a recent change to the home retrofit program at a million-dollar Rosedale home, for those are the homeowners who are benefiting—a million-dollar home. I don't know how many people can afford to live in that. I might have visited one, I can't remember, but I sure as heck have never owned one. Meanwhile, lower-income Ontario homeowners are going to have to pay more for home heating and electricity, and they won't be able to afford home energy efficiency retrofit programs to reduce these costs. That would probably be 80% of the population who won't be able to afford it; not exactly an effective program, I would say.

And lower-income tenants are going to pay more for heating as landlords pass heating costs from smart meters without reducing basic rents or making energy-efficient improvements to the apartments. So they're going to raise the rent because they haven't done what they're supposed to do as far as insulating their apartments, and of course, once again, it will be passed on to the consumers.

The government stands up here and talks about programs and how they're going to benefit people and that the consumer will benefit. Well, I don't remember too many people passing on savings to me as a consumer over the years. I don't remember my taxes going down. I don't remember my municipal taxes going down. I do remember them going up all the time, and our salaries were capped. Then, when we have to try to make enough money to pay for these things, we go on strike and these companies are supported with allowing scab labour to come into the plant and things like that.

It would be nice if this government finally passes anti-scab legislation so people can actually work and afford to pay for these programs that they're introducing.

All in all, it's hard to have confidence that the government will meet either its 2014 or 2020 GHG reduction targets. One has to wonder why the McGuinty government doesn't design environmental programs that an average person can afford. You know, if it's going to be really efficient, if it's going to work, I think that the majority of Ontarians would have to be able to be in a position to afford the luxury of retrofitting their homes to save them money in the long run, and I'm sure that it would be less consumption of our much-needed resources.

One also wonders why it provides so little support for more widely affordable ways for people to reduce their GHG emissions, such as tax credits for bicycle commuting or reduced fare transit passes for workers.

The NDP believes strongly that policies are needed to make environmental options convenient and affordable for Ontarians. Instead of expecting hard-pressed homeowners to pony up thousands of dollars for home improvements, the NDP would provide low-interest loans that could be paid back through energy savings. Instead of funding new highways like the 404 extension, which breed urban sprawl and car use, the NDP would put money into making public transit fares more affordable for Ontarians. Instead of creating a short-term energy shortage by plunging ahead with expensive and dirty nuclear plants, the NDP would expand clean, quick-to-deploy, job-creating, renewable energy.

At the end of the day, the recent numbers tell the story of the McGuinty climate plan. After three years of modest progress, the GHG emissions rose—I repeat, rose—by 4% between 2006 and 2007, negating two years of so-called gains. There is clearly much more that the Liberal government could and must do to reduce emissions in the province, which brings us to the bill in front of us.

Like many Liberal bills, this is an enabling bill that leaves the details to regulations. The bill is all of a huge—we're really going to help the climate—three pages. My, that's a real attack on the environmental problems in our province. Three pages: Wow.

It enables the government to set up a cap-and-trade program through regulations. Yes, we do need a cap-and-trade system, but the question is, will it be designed to ensure that emissions are reduced quickly enough to protect the health of our future generations, and will it be designed to ensure that low-income—I repeat, low—and middle-income Ontarians are protected from the job loss and price increases that will occur in this system?

There is real danger that once again, with this bill, the Liberals will put the interests of their friends, developers and nuclear industry, the richest Ontarians, ahead of the interests of ordinary Ontarians, ahead of the fair and effective greenhouse gas reductions we require. In fact, there are indications already that this bill will produce a cap-and-trade system that is so weak that it will fail to make all the possible reductions in the GHGs.

The effectiveness and fairness of the bill will depend on the design features that will mostly be determined through those regulations. Some of the key questions are as follows:

When will the caps take effect? At what level? Will there be incentives for early action? How many sectors will have their emissions capped? Will it apply only to big companies or small and medium ones, too? Will permits to emit be sold or given away? If sold, at what price? Will the revenue be used to quicken the transition to a green economy and to help those most vulnerable make such a transition? Will companies be allowed to buy offsets if they exceed their capped levels? How will qualifying offsets be determined?

Some of these questions seem technical, but they matter in terms of how much the cap-and-trade system will reduce emissions and who will bear the cost.

Ontario is not developing its system in a vacuum. We are greatly affected by what kind of system is put in place in the US and what system is put in place across Canada. But we must not let either of these dictate what Ontarians seek to do. There are good aspects to the Waxman-Markey bill that the government would be wise to follow, but Ontario should go further in some respects.

First, Waxman-Markey is comprehensive in scope. It has a solid long-term goal, an 83% reduction in emissions from 2005 levels by 2050, which matches what scientists are calling for in developed countries and exceeds the long-term McGuinty targets.

Second, Waxman-Markey covers all fossil fuels and most other greenhouse gases, 86% of all emissions by 2020—not too far away.

Third, it is fair in that it allocates 15% of permits to low-income families. As mentioned, low-income families have done the least to cause climate change and have the most to lose from rising prices on basic necessities.

Rebates in the US program, about $160 per adult starting in 2012 and growing over time, will help modest-income people cope with the transition. In fact, all low- and middle-income Americans will benefit over time, since unauctioned permits—about half the permits by 2030—will be paid out to US citizens living below the median income level.

Finally, the minimum auction price of $10 a ton, rising each year, to $63 a ton in 2050, places a strong price floor needed to encourage changes in business practices. We have to give initiatives to business to actually meet their targets. That's an important practice that hasn't been done in the past, and unfortunately, business hasn't sunk a lot of money into pollution control.

But there are also serious weaknesses to the Waxman-Markey bill, and pressure will come from vested interests for the McGuinty government not to go further in these areas.

First, Waxman-Markey distributes too many emissions permits for free: 85% at the start. This constitutes a free handout in the order of billions of dollars to energy-intensive industries. Yes, industries need government support to reduce their energy use and to transition to greener technologies, but providing them with a free licence to emit won't help them make such a transition. Specifically, Waxman-Markey gives too many free permits to oil and coal companies and puts too much faith in carbon capture.

The McGuinty government needs to advocate to ensure that the federal government of whatever stripe does not give oil companies a free ride by continuing to allow and subsidize the massive growth of the tar sands.

Second, Ontario needs to do better than the US in providing transitional aid for displaced workers and green-collar training programs. Waxman-Markey proposes to spend less than 1% on worker transition—far, far too little. There are many creative ways to help workers transition to green jobs, including basic support from income replacement, education and training, community development to build local economies and assistance to low-income people. The NDP has proposed an on-the-job training tax credit to help encourage employers to provide training to new workers making the transition to green jobs.

Finally—Speaker, it's a little tough to hear—the middle-term emission reduction targets of Waxman-Markey are simply not good enough. Waxman-Markey and the Stephen Harper plan aim for what works out to be a 3% reduction in emissions from 1990 to 2020. That is far shy of the McGuinty government's promised 15% reduction and far short of what most scientists believe is necessary to stop global temperatures from spiralling out of control. Pressure will come from industry for Ontario to align itself with these inadequate US and Canadian targets.

The McGuinty government must do better in resisting these interests than it has done in resisting the interests of land developers, water bottling companies and other corporate interests where basically the bottom line is profit and not so much protecting the environment.

Here's what a strong and fair cap-and-trade would look like. First, it will start soon. In last year's memorandum with Quebec, the McGuinty government said it would implement a cap-and-trade system as early as January 1, 2010. It has let two years slip by. Now it seems the start date has been moved to 2012. Once again we're putting it off, putting it off, putting it off. Soon we will see big disasters. So I just—

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Thank you. Questions and comments?

Ms. Helena Jaczek: It's a pleasure to rise this morning to comment on the remarks of our colleague from Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, remarks that were very pleasingly temperate this morning, I'm happy to say, also, as those remarks related to Bill 185, very much consistent with the way our government is moving forward with cap-and-trade. It's quite clear, as the member has outlined, that Ontarians do want governments to take action, and we have a responsibility to act to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and we owe it to the generations that follow.

It's not sufficient to say, "Let someone else deal with it." Governments around the globe are taking action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and it is indeed a global challenge, one that requires action at every level: internationally, federally, provincially and locally in each of our everyday lives. We are all global citizens and we need to take action. Since this is a global challenge, we are working with the Western Climate Initiative, the International Carbon Action Partnership, the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative and the Midwestern Greenhouse Gas Reduction Accord. We are taking action together.

It's extremely important that we do this. Ontario has an open market economy but it operates in a global trading system.

Carbon pricing is a reality for North America and the global marketplace. President Obama is moving towards cap-and-trade. Developing a cap-and-trade system compatible with the US will help protect against potential border measures on Ontario's exports. Since Ontario exports about 80% of its products to the US, aligning our cap-and-trade system with the US is imperative, and we want to be at the forefront of developing this system that will put a price on carbon. Thank you.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The member from Thornhill.

Mr. Peter Shurman: I'm pleased to rise and comment on the discourse by my friend from Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, whom I recognize not just on this, but on any debate we do in this chamber, as one of the passionate members of the NDP. I know he believes in what he is talking about.

I take exception not so much with what my friend from Hamilton East—Stoney Creek has to say, but, as I'll elaborate on in my own speech on this particular bill in a few moments, with the whole concept as it has been presented by the Liberal government.

The member takes a bit of a Pollyannaish approach in believing that in some manner or means, with the legislation that's enacted herein, to wit the two-page-long—not three pages; three pages includes the cover—legislation called Bill 185, this government is going to effectively address GHGs and global warming by a piece of legislation that's as flimsy as this simply by saying, "We're going to introduce cap-and-trade here in the province of Ontario without really elaborating in any meaningful way on what this cap-and-trade means."

I think what we know is that when we talk about a global initiative—we really are dealing with that term "global"—Ontario cannot possibly go it alone. Does Ontario have to be a piece of the jigsaw puzzle? Of course it does. But in order to pass legislation and make it effective legislation, we need detail.

The member talked about the fact that we didn't meet targets. In fact, we surpassed the targets that we had set here in the province of Ontario. That's not a surprise. There was a fairly scientifically oriented study published earlier in the week, as a matter of fact, that said if we continue on the present course and we actually pass all of the initiatives that are out there on a global basis, we will still see the temperature rise six degrees Fahrenheit by the end of this century.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The member from Welland.

Mr. Peter Kormos: Thank you kindly, Speaker. I listened carefully to my colleague Mr. Miller from Stoney Creek. He has already been insulted twice by other colleagues. One referred to his remarks as "temperate"; the other referred to them as "Pollyannaish." I know Mr. Miller has got to be sitting back there now just smoking, with the smoke coming out of his ears. I'll not offend him in the same way.

He had an effective analysis, as he inevitably does, of greenhouse gas emissions. I know that he delivered that with a strong background as a municipal politician from a community that has coped with environmental issues throughout its history. I enjoy listening to Mr. Miller and his contribution to these debates. It was a thoughtful, reasoned and measured commentary by him on Bill 185, not without its critique of the government, because I would have been sorely disappointed had he not criticized the government. But he nonetheless displayed a remarkable familiarity with the subject matter.

We're going to listen to, I suppose, a Liberal and then Mr. Shurman. I'm looking forward to Mr. Shurman's remarks and I hope that people who are watching at this early morning hour will stay tuned for that. If I have a chance to speak, I'll be making some comments on the bill as well. I have some things to say, perhaps a little bit more obtuse, because everything that has been said, everything that Mr. Miller has said, I could say, "Me too." But I'm not going to do that. Let's maybe flesh this out a little bit, expand it, look at some other aspects of it, look at some of the other dimensions to this issue, because it's really a broader environmental issue.

I commend my colleague. He was channelling Al Gore, and nobody could have done a better job.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The member from Eglinton—Lawrence.

Mr. Mike Colle: I thank the member from Stoney Creek for his comprehensive comments on many aspects of this bill.

I just wanted to comment on one area that he touched upon: public transportation. The reality is that we, as a government, are involved in a massive investment in public transportation, over $11.5 billion in improving transit in the GTA, from Hamilton all the way to Durham. That is a very practical and pragmatic way of reducing our carbon footprint. That's under way right now with York region, the city of Toronto, Hamilton and Durham region.

That's one way we can practically take cars off the road, take diesel buses off the road, because most of that $11 billion is in new electric, low-floor streetcars, or CLRVs, whatever you want to call them, that will go across the GTA. That is pragmatic; it works. It gets people out of their cars when you put in new light-rail systems, which this government is investing in.

I have a massive investment in public transit along Eglinton Avenue in my riding. Eglinton Avenue will now see public transit in modern, low-floor streetcars, which means seniors don't have to step up and disabled people can get in and out. It'll go all the way from Peel region, basically, to Durham; it's an east-west crossroad. That's an investment we're making, along with the investment we're making in expanding our subway system up to the city of Vaughan. It is critical to get an electric subway into one of the fastest-growing areas in Canada: the city of Vaughan and York region. That's practical.

We're doing this as part of this bill, so it's more than just what's in this bill. It also complements the greenbelt and creates green jobs—real, well-paying green jobs.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The member has two minutes to respond.

Mr. Paul Miller: I must start off by thanking my colleague Mr. Kormos for his kind words. I have never in my life been accused of being temperate or Pollyanna. I think that is quite a unique statement from both the members. That's the furthest from the truth when it comes to me, but that's okay. If they feel that way, I guess that was their way of softening the blow of their slams. But that's okay.

Let's face it, if we're going to be effective, if any government in this country is going to be effective, we've got to take a hard line. We've got to actually go after companies. Some of the other members may be a little more large-business friendly than we are and kind of turn their heads when it comes to pollution control. We're not like that in the NDP. We believe a healthy environment creates healthy people, creates longevity and also creates a good living and jobs. That's what we believe and we're going to stick to it and we're not going to be swayed from our opinion that governments aren't doing enough, haven't done enough and probably won't do enough in the near future.

They can set goals, they can set targets and they can set regulations, but if they don't implement them, they're not worth the paper they're written on. If they want to blow steam off and talk about what they're going to do, put some meat behind it. Let's see it done. Let's actually see some results. I haven't seen a heck of a lot and I probably won't, because I've lived through this my whole life in Hamilton. The ministry does not enforce its own rules. The ministry does not fine enough. The Ministry of the Environment has done a terrible, horrendous job at going after companies and individuals that pollute. It goes on and on and on. One day we're all going to regret it.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Further debate?

Mr. Peter Kormos: I guess we're on our own, Peter.

Mr. Peter Shurman: I guess we are.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The Chair recognizes the member from Thornhill.

Mr. Peter Shurman: I didn't expect to be debating this soon, but happy to rise and add my comments to those of the member from Hamilton East—Stoney Creek on Bill 185, on greenhouse gas emissions, primarily, but really implementing a cap-and-trade system here in the province of Ontario.

The first thing I want to do is go on record and say that Conservatives are not natively deniers of climate change, deniers of global warming, uncaring about pollution. We know that we have these problems to address and we want to address them. The inconvenient truth is that the McGuinty government doesn't know what it's doing in trying to address them with a bill that's as flimsy as this. Not only that, it's important that when we look at legislation that addresses the problem of climate change and we look at it on a narrow scale—and it is a narrow scale when we invoke only Ontario as the jurisdiction we're talking about—we have to explain what it is we're trying to do.

Very recently, knowing that I would rise in debate on this bill, I visited a couple of homes in the Toronto area. I should state from the get-go that these were homes in a great area of town—college-educated adults with great jobs, well-educated children living in the homes, well-read, well-informed, and I said in every case, "Do you know what cap-and-trade is? What's cap-and-trade?" Of the four adults, three said no, and the fourth one said, "My daughter graduated in June and when the ceremonies were over, they pulled their caps off and threw them up in the air. When they all collected their caps, was that the trade?" And it wasn't a joke. They don't know what it was. No one knew.

The Minister of the Environment says that Bill 185 is about protecting our environment and his cap-and-trade plan will do that. I'll get to him in due course. I wish we were here to debate and discuss a bill whose intent is to help our environment and clean our air. Instead, what I see is the Dalton gang wanting our blessing for another tax grab with a fancy title, and I'm sick of it. Not two weeks here, and I'm sick of it.

The folks out there are just catching on, for example, to what the harmonized sales tax will mean. Now you say, "Hey, we can protect the environment if we can just pass this Bill 185," and effectively, because of what I've just said, "Trust us. We know what cap-and-trade is. It doesn't matter if you do." I say—well, it doesn't matter what I would say because, frankly, that word would be unparliamentary.

The McGuinty government has over-dealt its hand and the Liberal folks know—you know—that you're going to pay; you know that you're going to pay for it. The government actually still believes that glossy headlines and repetitive spin are going to make up for the lack of substance and the lack of results. This summer, that has been underscored, and it continues to be underscored every day in this Legislature. But while Ontarians may not know what cap-and-trade is or, for that matter, a lot of the initiatives that this government takes, they have caught on to the government's MO.

After a health tax masquerading as life-saving revenue, a WSIB bill as a safety initiative and an HST as our economic salvation, also known as money to enable the McGuinty government to spend till it ends, this bill cannot fool anyone.

Like I said, the public doesn't know what it is. The public wants an initiative on climate change, but they don't know what this is, and you have to explain it. These three little pages, as I pointed out earlier—two if you drop the cover—are really not going to do it. The government should be ashamed of itself for bringing such an inadequate and flimsy proposal before this House to present to the people of Ontario.

I'll say again: I am not against a greenhouse gas initiative, and yes, I think cap-and-trade is a legitimate approach, just not this cap-and-trade, just not this bill, with four or six paragraphs of, "We will create something called cap-and-trade and then we'll regulate it." Tell me what you're going to do. Maybe I'll support that if you do, but you're not.

I listened very carefully to the environment minister in his leadoff speech. I watched him carefully. If you're the McGuinty government and you're the environment minister who fronts for that government on a bill like this, you come out, you call something green and you say that it's there to protect future generations. What you're really doing is you're using it as cover for your own failings. Better still—let me be quite succinct—you put that Minister of the Environment out there to sell it for you, and I'll tell you why you do that.

You do it because that particular Minister of the Environment actually looks trustworthy and he looks wise—to me. He could actually say the words, "Ho, ho, ho," and I'd buy it.

We saw the same thing in effect when that minister introduced the pesticides bill last year in which we saw a ban—a 100% ban—on pesticide use. Then, when the regulations came out, we exempted 98% of the ban. "Don't bother about Health Canada science. It's for the children," Mr. Gerretsen said.

"It's for the children." As a matter of fact, in answer to a question about that bill at the time in the House by me, he used that phrase again: "It's for the children." I don't want to digress into the pesticides bill, but I do point that out because when the minister, in his leadoff speech on Bill 185, talked about the reasons for introducing it and being concerned about this, he used the same phrase: "It's for the children." I might say that in the pesticides bill, if it was for the children, why did you exempt 98% of all usage? Do the children in agricultural areas not matter?

Because there's a total exemption there. It's not for the children unless you make it work.

Minister Gerretsen talked in very broad brush strokes, which is the innate problem of this bill. We want to improve the environment. He spoke of the urgency and the importance of reducing greenhouse gases. He talked about seeping methane in the Arctic, as if in some way this bill would be able to address that. And he said that global climate change is something we all have to address, a fact with which I agree 100%. Minister Gerretsen is correct on that.

So what's the problem? Well, this two-page bill is as broad as a barn door. Its latitude allows the government an array of powers, but we don't quantify any of those powers. It does not do what the minister said he was going to do. It does not elaborate for an unknowing public on just what cap-and-trade is. The minister relies on the public that generally want a reduction in greenhouse gases and to therefore support a bill he says will do that: "Look, we know that there's climate change; you've got to pass this bill. It's as simple as that." I'm sorry, I cannot walk into this place deaf, dumb and blind in terms of what this bill says I'm supposed to be voting for—no specifics.

For that same public, cap-and-trade means we as a jurisdiction—and I leave it to the listener to determine what that jurisdiction is, whether it's Ontario, Ontario/Quebec, Canada, the Western Climate Initiative, North America or the world—we have to cap our carbon emissions at some level. So we cap the carbon emissions, and then it sets up a market for carbon emissions, hence the trade piece. This trade element is a form of tax by allowing carbon emissions to carry a market-based price generally set at auction. Who gets the money? Government does. Strike me dead, what a surprise. Why?

Because the price of products manufactured by carbon emitters will rise and that price will be passed on to us, all of us, via the cost of the products that are created. So what's the quid pro quo? What is it? Government reduces our tax burden at the personal level in a commensurate way.

Now, has anyone in this chamber ever heard of a tax that Dalton McGuinty didn't like? So in the same sense as the pesticides bill did not and does not control pesticides—though this summer there was more asthma and hay fever, including my own acting up—this bill allows for a broad-based market system for carbon trading, but there are no stated objectives in specific terms. I need to know and the people of Ontario need to know: What are the specifics? What is it that we have to do, at what cost, to achieve what effect? And don't tell me it will be on a world scale that we'll reduce carbon emissions. I get that, but I want to know what piece of what jigsaw puzzle we're talking about.

The minister's job is to address issues on behalf of a concerned public and fix this problem. The problem here is greenhouse gases. This bill doesn't fix that. In fact, the closest the minister can come is to talk about the federal government getting our country into a worldwide agreement. That makes sense, but the bill is whistling in the wind. The minister likes the word "green," but saying it a lot doesn't make it green, and we saw that with the Green Energy Act. How does this bill reduce carbon emissions? I'll say that again: How does this bill reduce carbon emissions? It doesn't say in any real way that it can or that it will.

I heard the minister list initiatives he claims to have undertaken, or will be undertaking, in aid of the environment. Now, you don't really want to talk about shutting down the coal plants again, do you, Minister? I don't know how those even relate to this bill, which is the very tip of a market system for carbon credit trading. He said himself what this is about: It's about a supply-and-demand system for carbon trading, as distinct from controlling greenhouse gases.

Controlling greenhouse gases by legislation, they tell us, doesn't work anymore, so now we have to have a cap-and-trade system—fine. I'm often accused of a certain cynicism in this place and today is no different. I am cynical. This is not a bill that will make any immediate or real difference in global greenhouse gas emissions and the control of them. Global warming is what we're concerned with, and we are truly concerned, but this bill is, forgive the pun, a smokescreen. This government has concerns about the manufacturing sector spewing carbon into the atmosphere. I say that you should be so lucky, considering what you're doing to the manufacturing sector.

Let's be clear: This has nothing to do with the environment. Cap-and-trade is all about reworking the tax system. And, by the way, it's not such a bad idea if you do it properly.

Let me quote from a recent publication on cap and trade put out by the Canadian Chamber of Commerce:

"The largest active cap-and-trade program in the world is the European Union emissions trading scheme. It regulates CO 2 emissions from the energy sector, iron and steel production and processing, the mineral industry, and the paper and board industry. The United States has a nationwide cap-and-trade system for sulphur dioxide ... emissions from electrical utilities.

"In both the EU and the US, emissions permits were given to industry"—and I stress, given to industry—"for free (at the start of the program) to obtain support for the system and encourage the rapid start-up of a market for trades. Providing permits for free allows firms who would not have been able to acquire credits in the auction to remain in business. For firms that would have been able to pay for permits at auction, or would have reduced emissions anyway, obtaining permits for free creates an extra benefit....

Free emissions permits are valuable assets—they increase the firm's income either by increasing revenue if the permits are later sold or by decreasing costs if the permits are used. This is a key reason why industry may prefer a cap-and-trade system over carbon taxes. 'Were all permits subject to auction, big industry may look much more kindly on a carbon-added tax.'

"A national cap-and-trade system" for Canada "would require the creation of new administrative and legal trading infrastructure, complete with new regulations and institutions to effectively enforce the system ... and a national electronic registry for issuing, holding, transferring and cancelling permits."

That, to me, is a pretty significant commitment, and it's not addressed in any way, shape or form in the bill we're debating now.

I'd like to go on just for a moment with a couple of other paragraphs from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce that address this complexity of setting up cap-and-trade on—a global basis would be too broad, but just a Canada-wide basis, let alone Ontario:

"It is preferable to auction permits at the start and use the revenue to reduce personal and corporate income taxes...." That, inherently, is what cap-and-trade is about. It's a swap of the taxation system from personal and corporate income tax dependency to a dependency on revenue generated at auction from cap-and-trade. That's the trading system, and that's the quid pro quo that we, the citizens, are supposed to get the benefit of. But we have no details being supplied by the McGuinty government or Minister Gerretsen on how this is going to be effected through Bill 185.

I'll go on from the chamber of commerce document: "This would stimulate additional economic activity, offsetting some of the negative impacts of a cap-and-trade system. Without auctioning the permits, and recycling the revenue back to taxpayers (individuals and businesses), a cap-and-trade system that increases the cost of producing goods and services in proportion to their CO 2 emissions will put Canadian industry at a competitive disadvantage relative to other countries that are not taking similar action."

So there are some specifics here in a study—this is a learned paper, a well-researched paper, which has been published by an organization with a lot of credibility, on what you have to do. And it's not a two-page, four- or six-paragraph bill that just says, "We're going to do this," it is a blueprint for how you're going to do it.

It seems to me that every time I hear mention of climate control, it is almost always referred to as global climate control. So does Ontario have a fit into global climate control? Of course it does. But you have to do this on a global basis, not just say, "Hey, cap-and-trade for Ontario: Isn't it a good thing?" Sure it's a good thing, but what are the details? The devil is in the details.

Global, by definition, means "of, relating to or involving the entire earth, worldwide." And I said just moments ago that, left to our devices, if we were to invoke every single outstanding climate change treaty that hasn't been signed yet and some of the initiatives that have been implemented at this point, notwithstanding all of that, and if we go to Copenhagen in December and sign that, we're still going to have a result at the end of the 21st century of a rise in world temperature by six degrees Fahrenheit. The scientists said that; I didn't.

That being the case, what's our legacy? Nobody in this chamber is going to be here at the end of the 21st century, but our children as old men and women and their children as younger people are, and they are going to reap the results of what we create. So let's get with the program on a global basis if we're going to create anything of a lasting and positive nature.

I have noticed that this government now includes itself in the definition of "worldwide." I agree with my colleague from Haldimand—Norfolk, who spoke at the outset of the debate on this bill. He said, "Think global, act global," and I couldn't agree more with that sentiment. Mr. McGuinty and the province of Ontario alone are not going to solve the global climate crisis, and in fairness I don't believe that they think they are.

What I do believe is that they haven't enunciated the policy in a bill that carries the weight and the import that groups 13 million people, 13 million Ontarians, together and has them say, "We are onside. We want to be onside. We support this legislation because we understand the cause, and now we see the effect, and here is a solution." That's not the case.

It actually is up to the federal government to bring in some form of cap-and-trade system or other environmental policy, and it must relate to the money piece. It must relate to taxation. It must relate to a swap. The swap would be carbon emissions at a cost in auction, which is the real trading system that's being discussed on a worldwide basis, and it must include mandatory diminution of personal and corporate income tax.

This government is going to try to use a three-page bill to say, "Look at us. Look at what we're doing, and in the global context." Speaker, it's just three pages of paper. You haven't done anything when you set out a four- or six-paragraph bill that is supposed to change our entire environmental system. The minister would have you believe that that's not the case, but it is. When I saw this bill for the first time, I thought, "Well, here's a cap-and-trade system that we're initiating, and then we'll regulate it," and that's precisely what it is. So now I, along with the rest of us and all of Ontario, have to wait for that regulatory system to find out what they actually mean.

How can you expect us to take this seriously? What is it? What are the targets? What's the mechanism? What are you going to have to do to effect what you want? Claiming that this is some kind of an environmental program is nonsense. This is a lob ball over to the environmental side, saying, "Here, we're doing something. Isn't it great? Leave the rest to us." I'm not prepared to. I've seen too much of that in other legislation that this provincial government has brought forward and I need detail.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Questions and comments?

Mr. Paul Miller: I'd like to commend my colleague from Thornhill for his wonderful, well-thought-out and researched comments. However, I'm once again going to blow my temperate image. The bottom line here is that we will see down the road where the present government and the official opposition really stand when it comes to implementing tough targets and tough emission controls on major companies. I really don't believe they will follow through and vote for implementation of programs that are really going to help the environment. I believe they will follow their business roots.

I'll tell you what's going on right now in Hamilton. Some companies have already applied to move ahead the number of years for their compliance that has already been set forth by the government. They were supposed to have the environmental control systems in by a certain date and they were supposed to meet those targets. They will not meet those targets and they're already applying to extend it again. So here we go, delay, delay, put off, put off, and not having to spend the money.

I must say, in all the years that I worked there, when they were making hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in those industries, they weren't sinking a lot into pollution control. But now, when there's a recession and there's not a lot of money around, they're crying poverty. But they made hundreds of millions of dollars. They could have done it then. But they're not even doing it now; a lot of companies in this province are asking for an extension, and this government will probably give it to them, and it'll be another five or 10 years before anything is done.

So the government and the official opposition can talk environment control, they can talk pollution control. I really don't think they'll back it up; I really don't think they'll follow through with it. I think they'll follow the lead of their friends in Ottawa.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The member from Thunder Bay—Atikokan.

Mr. Bill Mauro: I want to thank the member from Thornhill for his comments this morning, his 20-minuter. I respect the position that he has taken, but I would suggest to those who are following the debate on television and those here in the chamber, you might expect, after having listened to the 20 minutes from the member, that in fact the legislation that's before us here today would be the only thing that has come forward from the McGuinty government over the past six years relative to climate change and dealing with greenhouse gas emissions in the province of Ontario.

Clearly, I haven't heard any mention about the 1.8-million-acre greenbelt around the GTA. I haven't heard any discussion around the 50-million-tree commitment that we've made. I haven't heard any discussion about the far north boreal region legislation that's before us today. A significant number of programs and legislation have come forward that deal with climate change and global carbon emissions over the past six years. They are before us and continue to come.

There's one specific one that I would like to talk about that has had a direct impact on my riding of Thunder Bay—Atikokan. The member may not be aware, but when the Conservatives did govern between 1995 and 2003, there was a very clearly articulated policy on their part that they were no longer going to be in the game of funding public transit. I'm not here to debate that particular policy. That was a position taken by the government of the day over an eight-year period, and that's fine. That was the position they took.

But from the city of Toronto, in terms of their ability to move forward with mass transit projects, subway cars, light rail vehicles, it had a direct impact, and nothing happened.

We came forward in 2003 with a very clearly articulated policy to get back into the game of funding mass transit, and I can tell you that not only has that helped ridership increase significantly in the city of Toronto, but it has also had direct economic benefit for my riding of Thunder Bay—Atikokan at the local Bombardier plant, where we now have seen close to $2 billion worth of contracts land. Much of that work is to be done in my riding.

I think there are other pieces that have happened over the course of the last six years that perhaps the member from Thornhill might lend his mind to.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The member from Haldimand—Norfolk.

This government is not explaining cap-and-trade to people in the province of Ontario. They are not engaged in a dialogue with respect to climate change. As the member from Thornhill indicated, we, as the opposition, support the ever-important climate change initiatives.

This government brought in a bill. Its members will not stand up and explain the bill. They don't seem to have an interest in this bill, in contrast to much of the rest of the world. I think of the very recent meetings at the United Nations General Assembly, where the president of China showed up to talk about climate change. The president of Japan, only elected six days before, showed up at the UN General Assembly to give a major speech on climate change. President Obama gave two speeches at the UN, one focusing solely on climate change.

The president of France travelled to New York to present on climate change and his solution, which is the Dion-style carbon tax, as opposed to cap-and-trade. Like Japan and the United States and the rest of Europe, those countries are very interested in implementing carbon tax tariffs and protectionist trade sanctions on those countries that do not get up to speed—something I know Mr. McGuinty is worried about.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Further comments and questions?

Mr. Yasir Naqvi: Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak in response to my colleague from Thornhill. I'm just going to say at the outset that I don't agree with his comments that just because the legislation is a few pages long, it is somehow inadequate or does not have the force or the intent which is meant for it.

I think we have to discuss this issue in context. When we talk about the climate change and greenhouse gas emissions issue, that is not an issue that is just limited to Ontario. That is an issue that is global in nature, and when it comes to the environment, we need to make sure that we are working in accordance with other like-minded regimes to create a system that works effectively. Creating an Ontario-only cap-and-trade system which does not work effectively with other Canadian provinces or with the regime perhaps put forward by the Canadian government or our other North American partners like the United States and Mexico would not be of any real consequence or impact.

By creating enabling legislation, which this legislation essentially is, the Legislature is giving the authority to the Minister of the Environment to work with other jurisdictions, such as the Western Climate Initiative, which Ontario is part of, and other provinces, to ensure that we create a cap-and-trade system that works cross-jurisdictionally. That is the crux. When we look at the geographic boundaries of Ontario, environmental issues just do not stop there.

It has to be done in a manner that conforms with a mechanism or regime that is operable in other jurisdictions as well, and that is what we are trying to do through this cap-and-trade legislation. It is the intention to create an effective system that works all across North America and hopefully globally, and that is the purpose of the legislation.

I'm very proud to stand here and support this enabling legislation which will create a cap-and-trade system in Ontario along with our other partners in North America.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The member from Thornhill has two minutes to respond.

Mr. Peter Shurman: Thank you to all of my colleagues for the comments. They are somewhat enlightening and they're all passionate, and I recognize that.

I'd like to begin by mentioning my colleague from Ottawa Centre, who suggests, in a way, that he agrees with me by saying we have to understand that this is global. Most of what I said was to that effect, that this is global, and you don't agree with me. This is rather puzzling to me, because we're about to see debate on this bill collapse. So if you're so passionate about this, why isn't the party that has put the legislation forward standing up and talking about it and doing precisely what I said, which is elaborating on what you mean and how this piece of the puzzle fits into the global overall context? That's what I want to see.

As to my friend from Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, he talks about the fact that the Liberal Party and our party, the Progressive Conservative Party, will ultimately cave and will support business. I want to make a point perfectly clear: Number one, I know very well all of my colleagues in my caucus, and I can tell you that we are just as passionate about climate change, global warming, greenhouse gases, as the holier-than-thou NDP is. And I can tell you that this is not about business; this is not about caving to business interests.

Here is what we believe about business: We believe that healthy business creates a healthy work climate. That's what we're trying to create. We don't cave to business, ever.

My friend from Haldimand—Norfolk talks about the fact that there is a need to explain cap-and-trade. That was the nub of my discourse. I want an explanation. I want to be able to vote for something not because somebody across the way tells me that there is a real thing called climate change, there is a real thing called global warming, and I have to address this real thing by voting for whatever it is they put up that passes for legislation. That's simply not true. My friend from Haldimand—Norfolk also said that there is no dialogue with the public, and that's precisely right.

The closest that that party, that government, is coming to creating dialogue with the public is you folks on television watching me and my colleagues debate this in a closed environment, and there's probably not 100 of you.

That's the problem with this legislation. This legislation is going to die probably today—go off to committee, where hopefully we'll get some amendments but ultimately we probably won't, and what will happen is we'll get a series of regulations that will create what passes for a cap-and-trade system. I've got a problem with that.

I'm glad to add my comments today, Speaker, and I thank you very much.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Further debate?

Mr. Gerretsen has moved second reading of Bill 185. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All in favour, say "aye."

All those opposed to the motion, say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it. Carried.

Second reading agreed to.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Shall the bill be ordered for third reading?

Hon. Monique M. Smith: Madam Speaker, I would ask that the bill be referred to the Standing Committee on General Government.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): So ordered.

Orders of the day.

Hon. Monique M. Smith: There being no further business prior to question period today, I would ask that we recess.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The House will recess until 10:30 of the clock.

The House recessed from 1006 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Bob Delaney: I draw members' attention to the west visitors' gallery where we have, from the riding of Mississauga—Streetsville, a student group visiting from the Netherlands as part of an exchange group. The students are visiting Rick Hansen Secondary and hail from a Dutch school called Sophianum. Their Rick Hansen student hosts will visit Holland next May. I welcome them all to the Legislature.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I take this opportunity, on behalf of the Minister of Culture and page Jacquelyn McLaurin, to welcome her aunt Joanne McLaurin to the public gallery today. Welcome.

On behalf of the member from Halton and page Chantelle Colangelo, we'd like to welcome her mother, Fiona, her father, Tony, and her godmother, Kathy Dinn, in the west members' gallery. Welcome today.

ORAL QUESTIONS

JOB CREATION

Mr. Tim Hudak: My question is to the Premier. The public accounts released late in the day Friday show, quite frankly, the McGuinty Liberals cannot be trusted to produce results for Ontario families.

Premier, on page 9 of your 2009 budget, you said your plan will be "creating and sustaining an estimated 146,000 jobs in 2009-10." Exactly how many jobs has the economy created since your budget day?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: What I can say is that—and I may have to refer some supplementaries to my colleague the Minister of Energy and Infrastructure—there was a specific plan to build infrastructure—schools, hospitals, roads, bridges and the like, to not only create 300,000 jobs in the short term but also to enhance our economic productivity over the long term.

But there is a strong consensus on Parliament Hill, across the country, in the US, the European Union, India, China and the like, which is that it is very important for us to invest in infrastructure, to stimulate the economy. That necessarily requires that we run a deficit for the time being. We acknowledge that creates challenges in the long term, but we think it's the best thing for us to do together right now: strengthen this economy, stimulate the economy and create jobs.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: It was a rather short and direct question. The Premier boasted in his budget that he'd create 146,000 new jobs this year. The reality is the Premier's so-called jobs budget has been an enormous bust.

In your budget speech, the Liberals said, "Our government has designed a stimulus package that creates jobs today." Six months and four days since promising those jobs "today," Statistics Canada reports that 74,000 full-time jobs have been lost since then, under the McGuinty Liberals—74,000 fewer full-time jobs.

Premier, why have you not created the jobs that you promised in your March budget?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: The Minister of Energy and Infrastructure.

Hon. George Smitherman: The figures that the honourable member has quoted are based on a formula of infrastructure investment widely used here in Ontario and in infrastructure projects, in partnership with our municipal and federal governments in the country.

As the honourable member will know, this year and next fiscal year in the province of Ontario, we're making some of the biggest investments that have ever occurred in infrastructure in the history of our province. I know that the Leader of the Opposition has spoken against those, but as an example, we're looking at moving forward projects such as the one in Port Colborne, which will enhance access to people in that community to sports and recreation infrastructure. The dollars invested there will certainly sustain a substantial number of jobs. Our $16 billion in infrastructure will sustain 150,000 jobs in the construction and related trades.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Hold on a second. I asked a question, a very simple question to the Premier of this province. The Premier of the province referred all of my questions last week to the finance minister. He put out his public accounts that showed the biggest deficit in the history of the province of Ontario late in the day Friday, and then he wasn't even here to answer questions on that very budget yesterday—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I ask the honourable member—you know the rules of not making reference to people's attendance. Thank you.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Well, let me register to the Premier the profound dissatisfaction of the official opposition with his increasingly slippery behaviour in holding this government to account here in the Legislature.

Premier, will you answer a very simple question? You promised 146,000 jobs; since then, you lost 78,000. Where is the timetable for those jobs, as you promised?

Hon. George Smitherman: I know that the mechanics may prove difficult, but interestingly, the loudest heckler over there was recently crediting our government for investments that we were making in the underlying infrastructure in Ottawa, related to a bridge. And there's another member in that party that speaks to me very often about the desire to see an additional project supported in their local community.

The point is that in many projects, some of which are in partnership with the federal government and some of which involve our municipalities, we're investing unprecedented sums in our province's infrastructure, and substantial employment in the construction and related trades occurs. The honourable member need only check in at the hiring halls to know that the building trades, as an example, are enjoying employment as we use government dollars to rebuild the infrastructure of Ontario and to employ our people.

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Mr. Tim Hudak: I've asked a very simple, straightforward question to the Premier—if he'll answer a question in this Legislature—a very simple question about your jobs plan. I'm getting no answers from the Premier; I'm getting lots of answers from a wannabe mayor of Toronto instead.

Premier, asking you back, when you took office, you started off by cancelling tax credits for seniors, you raised business taxes, and you brought in the largest tax increase on Ontario's families in the history of our province. The Premier tells us that his tax, spend and big-deficit policies are good for jobs. If that is the case, Premier, why are you closer to breaking Bob Rae's record of 300,000 jobs lost than you are of hitting the target in your so-called jobs budget?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: The honourable member may pretend that he is not aware that Ontario, like the rest of Canada, like the rest of the world, has been affected by a global recession, but Ontarians understand what has happened to us. They also understand that it's important for us to stimulate the economy. They understand that means that we have to borrow money. We have to run a deficit. We're being upfront with Ontarians about the deficit that we're running.

My colleague was a member of a government which surprised all of us with a $5.6-billion deficit, which none of us were aware of. Ontarians are aware of the deficit that we're running; they're also aware of our motivation for doing that. We think it's important to stimulate the economy, to create jobs—that meets the needs of our generation at this moment in time. But we are also mindful of our responsibility to the next generation. We'll be speaking more about that through our fall economic statement and our upcoming budget, as to how we're going to deal more specifically with our deficit, which we've run for the right reasons.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: In fact, I was proud to be part of a government that helped create one million net new jobs here in the province of Ontario.

I remind the Premier, in the last calendar year alone, sir, you've lost over 200,000 full-time jobs.

Premier, maybe I'll get a straight answer from you on this question. In your public accounts released at the end of the day Friday, you announced a record deficit of $18.5 billion. Premier, give us a straight answer: Is that it? Or how deep will your latest deficit actually be?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Again, I want to remind my colleague that there is a very broad consensus of the need for us to stimulate the economy, of the need for us to take actions collectively around the world to ensure that a great recession did not become a great depression. I think many would argue that we have, in fact, done the right thing as part of a large, global, collective response to a global challenge. As I say, we are mindful of the dangers associated with running a deficit, but we chose specifically not to pursue the path recommended by my colleague.

We did not make cuts to our schools, we did not make cuts to our hospitals, we did not make cuts to our environmental protections, and we refused to make cuts to our business partners which are looking for us to support them in a time of great challenge. That's the approach that we've brought. Again, we are mindful of the deficit challenge, and we'll be speaking more about that through our fall economic statement and the budget as well.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Well, Premier, your empty promises of spending more money are not creating jobs for Ontario families today. In fact, since your so-called jobs budget, we've lost over 70,000 jobs in the province of Ontario halfway through the fiscal year. Yes, we are part of a government that reduced the tax burden, focused on the economy and fuelled economic growth under a PC government for over a decade. When this Premier took over, he basically started out on third base and thought he had hit a triple.

To the Premier: Why did you take record economic growth and job creation and then turn it into record deficits and unemployment?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Admittedly, it is an interesting storyline. It has some attraction to it, but it's not founded in reality. We were all affected by a global recession. We participated in a responsible approach to dealing with it. I want to quote the federal Minister of Finance. He said, "Our government will be making a deliberate choice in the budget to run a substantial deficit.

The deficit will be a temporary tool—one that allows our government to invest in a stimulus plan that injects money into our economy and delivers real benefits to Canadian families and businesses." I could not agree more, and I would recommend to my honourable colleague that he pick up the phone and speak to the federal Minister of Finance so that they're in sync once again on these important issues.

TAXATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Premier. The Premier and his ministers say that businesses are going to pass on the HST savings to consumers. Ontarians remember the GST, and they don't believe that for a minute. With winter coming, people are very worried about home heating costs and what that's going to mean next year when those costs are 8% more with the HST.

My question: Can the Premier elaborate on the savings that hydro companies are going to have to pass on to consumers and whether Ontarians will actually see these savings?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: My honourable colleague will understand, I'm sure, that the HST or its equivalent has been around for some 40 years now, perhaps 50 years. She is aware that 130 countries have adopted it. She is aware that provinces of all political stripes have adopted that as well. I'm not sure if she has had the opportunity to speak to the Premier of Nova Scotia, who heads up an NDP government there. He is not prepared to rescind the single sales tax that is now up and in place in his province.

So why is it that once governments put this in place, they don't take it away? They do that because it serves the public interest. It serves to strengthen our economy. It serves to ensure that we have the resources to support our schools, to support our hospitals and to support our environmental protections. But most importantly to our families, it puts in place the opportunity for us to create more jobs, which is the single greatest concern for our families today—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you, Premier. Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: That non-answer is not going to calm the fears of the elderly couple that I met up in Thunder Bay over the summer who have a $500-a-month home heating bill cost; it's going to go up $40 a month as a result of the HST. If hydro is anything like Tim Hortons, consumers are going to be in big trouble. Last week, the London Free Press quoted Tim Hortons senior executive Nick Javor, who said he "doubts the ability to write off sales tax on business inputs will result in savings for the consumer."

Why is this Premier playing ivory tower, head-in-the-clouds economist instead of listening to Ontario businesses and people?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: This is a really important debate for us to have, and I think from time to time we should listen to external experts on this.

A TD report, in its recent intervention in this debate, said the following: "About 80% of the expected total cost savings will be passed along immediately in the first year the HST comes into effect, with that ratio eventually reaching 95% by year three, with the full cost savings of these firms to take up to six years to feed through to consumers." So from an independent, objective third party, the advice that we're receiving is that in fact all the savings ultimately flow through, and more importantly, it does result in the creation of new jobs, which is the single greatest concern to Ontario families today.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Small businesses are even more worried about the impact of the HST. A CFIB survey showed that nearly 60% of Ontario businesses could not think of a single benefit of the HST—almost 60%. Meanwhile, the Premier and his caucus have their heads in the clouds. In a letter to constituents, as a matter of fact, one Liberal backbencher says that realtors should lower their fees to offset the HST, even though there are very few savings to pass on. When will the Premier come back to the real world and admit that a tax that makes life less affordable and kills some 40,000 jobs every single year is really a bad idea?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: It's always interesting to see the leader of the NDP stand up and represent business interests in this House. I take that as progress, as a healthy evolution of the New Democratic Party of Ontario, and I welcome that.

There are great politics to be had in dealing with the debate over the harmonized sales tax. I understand that, accept that, recognize that and embrace that. But I think the question that Ontarians really want us to answer is, "What do we need to do to make ourselves stronger?" They know in their heart of hearts that getting stronger is not an easy thing. They understand that sometimes we've got to do stuff, our generation has to take on certain responsibilities which are not easy, to create a stronger economy for the future. That's what the HST is all about. That's what harmonizing our sales taxes is all about.

That's why finance ministers from previous parties who formed the government here all agree: that the single most important thing for us to do to strengthen—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

GOVERNMENT SPENDING

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is to the Premier as well. Yesterday the Minister of Finance said he expected to see belt-tightening in the coming months. He wouldn't elaborate, unfortunately, on the details, so I need to ask the Premier the question: Tell us where the people of Ontario are going to be feeling the squeeze over the next little while?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: This is an important conversation that we would ask our colleagues to engage in as Ontarians, and more broadly as well. I think Ontarians understand where we find ourselves. We're running a significant deficit. We've run it for the right reasons: to stimulate our economy as part of a global effort in the face of a global challenge. That was the right thing to do for us, but as I said earlier today, we're also mindful of our obligation to our children and our grandchildren to get ourselves out of this financial challenge. That will call for some difficult decisions.

I'm proud of the fact that in our recent public accounts it registered less than a 0.5% increase in our expenditures in comparison to our original estimates. So we have done a good job at holding the line, but there are more difficult decisions to come, and I'm always open to advice and recommendations from my colleagues opposite.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: As Ontarians brace for the squeeze, others are doing quite well. The latest public accounts that the Premier is referring to reveal that the Courtyard Group received $6.8 million in payments from the government last year. That's an amount that's six times greater than they received last year and the year before that. Meanwhile, the belt gets tighter across Ontario. People in Fort Erie watched yesterday as their local emergency room was shut down, and children's aid societies from Rainy River to York region are facing significant funding cuts. When will the Premier and his well-connected friends start tightening their belts?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: When it comes to public services, we've made some dramatic new investments. Whether you look at health care, education or investments in strengthening the economy, there have been dramatic investments ranging from anywhere from 25% to 34% during the course of our mandate in government.

With respect to Courtyard, my colleague knows that we have a new rule in place now, one that the NDP government refused to put in place during its day and that the Conservative government refused to put in place during its day. We have now said that you cannot move ahead with sole-source contracts. We think that's inappropriate. We have now prohibited those. It is the appropriate thing to do, it's the right thing to do, and perhaps it's unfortunate it wasn't put in place before by previous governments.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Ontarians understand that getting out of this recession is not going to be easy. They are ready to make the sacrifices; there's no doubt about it. But they want their government to be balanced and fair. When the Premier is willing to close ERs, slash children's aid society budgets, but give his friends six times more, Ontarians feel cheated. Why shouldn't they?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: My colleague knows that we've closed the door once and for all, something that no government did before, with respect to prohibiting sole-source contracts. That's done and it won't happen again. I think Ontarians also know that we have smaller classes, we have higher test scores, we have higher graduation rates and we have more teachers than ever before. They also know that we've got shorter wait times in our health care. We've got more doctors. We have more nurses. We're now tapping emergency room wait times.

We're doing more to ensure that more Ontarians get access to family health care as well. So they know that we have not been a perfect government, but I think they also recognize that when we come across particular issues and particular problems, we face up to those and take steps to ensure that they don't recur.

JOB CREATION

Mr. Norm Miller: My question is for the finance minister. If a budget is about a plan, public accounts is a report on the results of that plan. On March 26 you spoke to the budget in this House and said, "To confront the current economic challenge, our government has designed a stimulus package that creates jobs today." Minister, Ontario taxpayers are still waiting for the results. Job numbers show that Ontario lost 74,000 full-time jobs over the 189 days since you said jobs would be created that day. When you said you'd create jobs, did you mean at the Liberal-friendly Courtyard Group?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: What the government said quite clearly is that like the western world, we were confronted with a declining economy that would see job loss, but that like the rest of the western world, we would invest aggressively in stimulus to create jobs, and we did that. It was the appropriate policy to undertake. There are projects underway across Ontario utilizing that money and employing people. Those people who are employed on those sites are, in turn, spending money in their communities to help with the economy. There is no doubt that there is a challenge in the economy on jobs. There's no doubt that this party has laid out a plan to help deal with that, and that plan is working.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary.

Mr. Norm Miller: Again for the Minister of Finance: The McGuinty Liberals haven't honoured the promise that Minister Duncan made to create full-time jobs. In the last six months the Premier lost 74,000 full-time jobs. Over the past year, Ontario is down 200,000 jobs. The minister must be familiar with the phrase, "Fool me once; shame on you. Fool me twice; shame on me." Why did the Minister of Finance say in the public accounts that he "took measures to ensure that jobs are created today," when he knows that he didn't?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I take it then the party opposite doesn't support infrastructure investment. I would say to my colleague opposite that he is being rather selective in his reading of the budget. He will have seen throughout the budget, in the narrative and in the graphs and so on, that employment would continue to be a major challenge around the world and here in Ontario.

He would see quite clearly that the stimulus we were projecting was designed to begin the process of rebuilding, recognizing that political parties and the leadership of this province, both here and in the business and labour communities, had to come to terms with the new reality, and that's what this government's done. As long as one Ontario family needs a job and wants a job, this government won't rest. He ought to support the kinds of investments we're making in infrastructure to improve the economy in the short term and improve—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

CITY OF OTTAWA

Mr. Michael Prue: My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. An

article in yesterday's Ottawa Citizen suggests that political interference is once again slowing down efforts to improve public transit in Ottawa. Fingers are being pointed at this minister. My question is very simple: Will the people of Ottawa finally see progress on public transit or will this minister let his mayoral aspirations get in the way?

Hon. Jim Watson: I'm particularly proud of the track record of the McGuinty government when it comes to delivering funds for the city of Ottawa. Let me just talk about some of those investments. Since 2003, the city of Ottawa has received $512.5 million in transit funding; highway infrastructure, $282 million; municipal roads and bridges, $47 million; the new archives—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I am prepared, as I've said before, to tolerate some interjections from members, but constant interjections from certain members—and you know who you are—are wearing on me and wearing on our guests who are watching this. I would just ask that it not be the constant interjections.

Minister?

Hon. Jim Watson: The Investing in Ontario Act saw $77 million, $33 million of which is going to go to help clean up the Ottawa River—from raw sewage going into the river; and the stimulus fund, over $125 million. As a result of an agreement we reached with all municipal partners, the uploading process has already begun for the city of Ottawa. When fully uploaded, the city of Ottawa will be ahead by $122 million. This government has delivered for Ottawa.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Prue: I listened intently to the minister. By the sounds of it, this minister isn't the only member of the McGuinty cabinet considering greener municipal pastures.

Ministers and their fledgling municipal campaigns pose a real conflict of interest. Since this minister won't want to be accused of improper interference, will he set an example for the rest of his cabinet colleagues and remove himself from involvement in Ottawa municipal issues until he decides whether he's in or out of the race for mayor?

Hon. Jim Watson: Thank you for that vote of endorsement. I understand you're announcing you're running for mayor of Toronto with that little speech, so it's—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock for a second, please. If the members can relate back to a previous question period leading up to a September 17 by-election, I reminded everyone here that we would appreciate the campaigning to take place outside this chamber.

I also recognize that there may be aspirations of individual members in this House or people who think that people are going to run. I would ask that we confine ourselves here to dealing with provincial issues and issues that pertain to the province of Ontario and keep all the electioneering out of the chamber.

Hon. Jim Watson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm very proud of the relationship that we have developed with the city of Ottawa. I couldn't say it better than our mayor, who said, "The province... has never in its history been as good to eastern Ontario and Ottawa as it has been over the last two years while I have been mayor. Our relationship is warm, it's co-operative and it's moving to the future. All I can say is, I'm very, very happy the city of Ottawa is working in this manner with the McGuinty government because they are coming through for the city of Ottawa." That was Mayor O'Brien in Nepean This Week in April 2008.

I look forward to continuing that strong relationship of delivering funds and services from the province to the great city of Ottawa.

TAXATION

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: My question is for the Minister of Revenue. The wholesale trade sector plays an important role in my riding of Kitchener—Conestoga. In fact, the wholesale trades sector employs over 1,400 people in my riding. This industry includes wholesale distributors, agents, brokers of goods—for example, farm products, petroleum, food and beverage, personal and household goods, motor vehicles and parts, building materials, supplies, machinery and equipment.

Employers such as Home Hardware distribution and supply in St. Jacobs employ 1,172 people in the township of Woolwich, and Freeman Sporting Goods employs 25 people in the township of Wellesley, which makes an incredible contribution to our community.

My constituents in the wholesale trade sector are concerned about the implementation of the HST and what it's going to mean for them.

Minister, what effect is the HST going to have on the wholesale trade sector?

Hon. John Wilkinson: I thank the member for the question. I can share with her, and I hope that she'll share, the success stories that we have in her riding. Estimates show that Ontario's wholesale trade sector will save roughly $455 million net per year as a result of our tax reforms. This includes some $425 million a year through HST input tax credits and another $220 million a year through corporate tax savings.

Times have changed. We're seeing the biggest global economic crisis in this world in some 80 years and we're taking bold action to ensure that we can improve the competitive position of our businesses here in Ontario as they compete for new jobs around the world. That's why it's important that we're supporting an industry which I know is so important to the member for Kitchener—Conestoga.

We have a choice: We can refuse to fix what we all know is broken, or we can take bold, aggressive steps to—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary.

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: There seems to be a great deal of support in the business sector to make Ontario more competitive and to create jobs. Minister, TD Bank released a report: Harmonization will make Ontario business more efficient and lead to more investment. It will lead to higher incomes for Ontarians. Economic analysts are unanimous in predicting that harmonization will lead to a higher real GDP per person in the long run. I know that businesses such as the Ontario Chamber of Commerce are tracking association support.

Will the minister tell us if the HST will make Ontario more competitive and create jobs? My constituents are asking the question and would like to hear it directly from the minister.

Hon. John Wilkinson: The TD report that the member referenced estimates that the harmonized sales tax will reduce the cost of doing business in Ontario by roughly $5.3 billion a year. Ontario businesses will see a $500-million reduction in their compliance costs. We are also cutting the small business corporate tax rate by some 18%, from 5.5% to 4.5%, and we're eliminating the small business surtax. Ontario will be the only jurisdiction in Canada to eliminate this barrier to growth. We are cutting the general corporate income tax rate from 14% to 12% on July 1, 2010, and then cutting it further to 10% by 2013.

We are cutting Ontario's marginal effective tax rate on new business investment in half. Currently it's about 33%; we're cutting that down to 16%, making Ontario one of the most competitive jurisdictions in the industrialized world for new investment—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

WINDSOR ENERGY CENTRE

Mr. Peter Shurman: My question is for the finance minister. Last Wednesday, Minister Duncan unmuzzled himself long enough to say that I should look at the 2007-08 public accounts, which report that the McGuinty Liberals spent $50,555,000 on the Windsor Energy Centre.

On Friday, two days later, this year's public accounts came out. Why did Minister Duncan say that the McGuinty Liberals spent $50 million on the Windsor Energy Centre when you spent $81 million?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I think what I said was that the member ought to look at the public accounts that were out. I think I also said that there would be further information available in the new public accounts.

As the member opposite knows, I was actually trying to be of help, because what he has suggested—he stood in his place and said that that information was not public. In fact, it was. He knows full well that there is a lawsuit with respect to the ownership of that centre that makes it difficult for me to comment. I'm glad he looked into the public accounts and followed my advice. I would—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary.

Mr. Peter Shurman: Again to the Minister of Finance: The public accounts that came out two days later revealed that he actually did spend $80 million for this project in his riding. The minister is supposed to be good with numbers, heaven help us all. Would he explain how his pet project cost $30 million more in just two days?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I'm delighted that the member now is looking at public accounts; it was evident that he wasn't before. That's a very good thing to do. It informs public debate. I think it's always important to be factually accurate in what one says in the House. When he suggested last week that the information wasn't public, he was wrong, demonstrating that he hadn't looked at it.

The member knows that the ownership of that centre is a subject of some legal dispute and he knows that I'm not able to comment on that. But I'm delighted to see that he's in fact following up and looking at public accounts, where we've been full and transparent in all of these dealings, in the interest of all Ontarians.

YOUTH SERVICES

Mr. Michael Prue: My question is to the Minister of Children and Youth Services. On September 1, the ministry abruptly—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. I just reminded the members to keep municipal electioneering outside of this chamber and I'm hearing comments from the government side.

Mr. Michael Prue: —the ministry abruptly closed a small and cost-effective youth centre in downtown Toronto. The centre had a week to transfer their youth to other facilities. The staff will be laid off on December 1.

The young people were forced out of the York Detention Centre in downtown Toronto to go to Brampton or Cobourg, far from their families, the clinical supports and rehabilitation programs that they had obtained in the cost-effective CASATTA program. Can the Minister of Children and Youth Services explain why a decision so potentially detrimental to these young people was rushed through without proper consultation?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I'm very happy, actually, to have the opportunity to talk about this. Our youth justice system is now transformed. We now have a stand-alone youth justice system where all young people are in youth facilities; there are no more youth in our adult facilities. This is a very important change in how we work with young people who are in conflict with the law, so that they can move on with their lives in a more productive way. They have opportunity for programming for schools, for training. In fact, yesterday I visited Bluewater in Huron county, where I personally saw the impact that the right teachers and the right staff can have on kids.

You are absolutely right: We have closed two different facilities as we make the transformation to a dedicated youth justice facility.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Prue: We have people here today listening to these answers: Don Adam, Deborah Satira and people from the York Detention Centre and CASATTA.

Transferring these children and youth to another city is unhelpful, expensive and myopic. Ontario's Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth is very concerned. Irwin Elman has told us, "My office feels that it would be unfortunate if young people lose contact or have diminished contact with families as a result of placements outside the city.

Distance, transportation, and time are key factors that hinder the ability of parents/guardians or key people to meet with the young person." The closure also contravenes the recommendations of the David Meffe inquest, calling for youth detention centres to be smaller, stand-alone facilities. Why is the minister contravening the good advice offered by her own experts?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Quite to the contrary, we know and act on the notion that contact with parents and contact with families is a very important component of the youth justice system. That's why we will facilitate transportation of their parents to wherever a youth is being held.

I think it's important to understand that, overall, Toronto families are being better served, because previously, before we opened the new Roy McMurtry centre in Brampton, many youth were being held in Hamilton or in Cobourg, and actually only a very small number were being held at the York Detention Centre. They will actually be closer in Brampton than they were when they were in Hamilton or in Cobourg.

NORTHERN ONTARIO HERITAGE FUND

Mr. David Orazietti: My question is to the Minister of Northern Development, Mines and Forestry regarding the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund Corporation's young entrepreneur program. Minister, young entrepreneurs often struggle with the initial investment required to launch their businesses. For too long, young people in northern Ontario have left home, because of a lack of opportunity, to pursue careers and business opportunities more easily found in other regions.

One of our government's initiatives, the young entrepreneur program is making a difference in the lives of northerners by helping to give youth the support they need to develop small businesses and plan for their future.

Through the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund Corporation's young entrepreneur program, we are investing in creative and talented young business people by helping to provide the resources necessary for the next generation of business leaders to be successful in northern Ontario.

Minister, could you explain how the recent investments to this program are supporting the creation of new jobs in northern Ontario?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Thanks to the member for Sault Ste. Marie, who is so supportive—as are all our northern caucus members—of this great program.

This past July, actually, I had a chance to attend a young entrepreneur event in Thunder Bay, where I was able to announce our government's support for four Thunder Bay-area young entrepreneurs to start up new business ventures.

The businesses included a hair salon, a specialty jewellery manufacturing business and a sled dog tourism enterprise—tremendous ideas. We were able to provide $25,000 to each of them. We've subsequently made several other announcements of support for young entrepreneurs.

This is a remarkable program. It creates great employment. Over the course of the program we've provided $6.1 million for up to 260 young entrepreneurs in the province of Ontario. It's just a great program that we're very pleased to be supportive of.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. David Orazietti: Thank you, Minister. This program has had tremendous benefits in my riding of Sault Ste. Marie as well. In April we announced $109,000 in new funding for several young entrepreneurs, including a web design business offering web hosting and animation, Graystone Environmental Services, and the Algoma Natural Healing Clinic. It's a program that's important to all communities in northern Ontario, as it helps to build economic prospects while providing incentives for young people to contribute to the prosperity of their own region.

Minister, in addition to this program for the youth of northern Ontario, I know that business owners in Sault Ste. Marie have also benefited from the NOHFC's northern Ontario entrepreneur program. It's important to support these ambitious entrepreneurs and promote job creation among all age groups as we work to ensure that new business ventures and opportunities come to life in northern Ontario.

Minister, could you explain the importance of this program and any recent investments made through this initiative?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: This is a new program, the northern Ontario entrepreneur program. It provides up to $125,000 for entrepreneurs across the north.

The distinction with the young entrepreneur program is, young entrepreneurs have an age limit of 29. What we certainly understand, in terms of the challenges we're facing with the economy in northern Ontario, is that there are many people with some tremendous business ideas who are older than the age of 29. This program responds to that. We have received a tremendous response to that. This is as a result of recommendations made by Dr. Bob Rosehart in his report, in terms of recommendations for economic renewal in northwestern Ontario.

May I mention also the efforts of our Northern Ontario Heritage Fund board of directors, who understood that a program such as this will make a real difference in terms of people with some grand and entrepreneurial ideas moving forward.

We are very, very pleased with this program. There's been tremendous uptake. We're looking forward to making a number of very positive announcements.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr. Frank Klees: To the Minister of Transportation: The minister will know that there are some 400,000 uninsured motorists on Ontario roads. They're driving illegally, they are an increased safety risk and are responsible for increasing registration and insurance costs by the millions of dollars every year.

The minister also knows that even though drivers are required to make a declaration of valid insurance when they renew their driver's licence, his ministry's information system doesn't even record that information.

This past Thursday there was a debate in this House to deal specifically with his ministry's failure to record that information. That resolution called on the government to prioritize fixing that problem. Can the minister tell us when he will present us with a plan that has specific dates on which that—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. James J. Bradley: First of all, I want to commend the member for bringing forward the resolution that he did. I know of his very long interest in matters related to transportation. He had the privilege, as I have now, of being the Minister of Transportation of Ontario. I've appreciated the fact that in much of the legislation and many of the regulations we've brought forward, he has taken a constructive rather than a critical approach to these matters.

I want to say that the resolution that he brought forward is one that I happen to support very strongly. I know that he will be pleased that we are working as quickly as possible—

Interjections.

Hon. James J. Bradley: It says here "as quickly as possible." He'll want us to get it right. I know he wants us to get it right. I commend him for his ideas in this matter.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Frank Klees: That was my note to the minister letting him know I was going to ask the question.

The minister knows that over a six-year period, uninsured drivers were involved in more than 20,000 collisions in this province, killing 300 and injuring more than 10,000. Uninsured drivers were at fault in more than 80% of those accidents. More than 2,000 were impaired, nearly one quarter fled the scene and more than 1,300 had suspended licences.

The reason for that resolution was to emphasize how important this issue is for the ministry, to emphasize that uninsured drivers are not only an increased safety risk, but they are costing millions of dollars to consumers in this province.

Will the minister agree to come to this Legislature with a specific plan, with specific timelines, to address—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. James J. Bradley: I'm pleased to inform the member that we are currently at the table with the Insurance Bureau of Canada and the insurance industry, and we're working to create an automated insurance verification system, which I think he advocates.

We recognize the importance of this issue. An effective solution must meet the needs of the many law-abiding motorists on our roads, the insurance companies and the government. MTO, ServiceOntario, the Ministry of Finance and the Insurance Bureau of Canada are working on this initiative. We're all committed to delivering on this project. While there are some technological challenges in an information exchange between the ministry and the Insurance Bureau of Canada, we are working with the industry to resolve these issues, including the impacts to Ontario citizens.

Also, we should note that there is a fine of up to $25,000 for a first offence and a fine of $50,000 for a second offence and the —

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question?

MANUFACTURING AND FORESTRY SECTOR JOBS

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. Two years ago the Tembec pulp mill in Smooth Rock Falls closed. After the mill closed, the community created a co-op and came up with a plan to reopen the mill and provide good, green, well-paying jobs. All they needed to make a go of it was a fibre allocation, which the province had the legal authority to grant but didn't. Why did the province refuse to allocate fibre rights to the Smooth Rock Falls co-operative?

Hon. Donna H. Cansfield: I thank the member for the question. We've been working very closely with the mayor and the councillors of Smooth Rock Falls as they move forward with their intention to look at some alternatives because Tembec had moved out. As Smooth Rock Falls had other partners that were involved and as those discussions moved forward, they moved forward with Tembec.

Certainly the Ministry of Natural Resources was prepared to work very closely and indicated that many times, as I sat at the table with them—probably four or five times that we met over this particular issue—with our question always to the Smooth Rock Falls folks, "How can we help you?"

Timber allocation was not an issue, from my understanding, as we worked with them, as we moved forward. Smooth Rock Falls, in fact, determined that they themselves would withdraw from the project.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Here are the facts for the minister: The community came up with a creative plan that would have resulted in a facility that could easily shift production from pellets to lumber to biofuel, depending upon market demand. This would have resulted in job stability and saved the community from the boom-and-bust cycle of so many resource-based towns. All it needed was the fibre rights, which this province had the authority to grant under the Crown Forest Sustainability Act. Why did this government dash the hopes of an entire community?

Hon. Donna H. Cansfield: In fact, the folks at Smooth Rock Falls determined themselves to withdraw from the negotiations. We received a letter from them indicating that. There is no question that we were prepared to sit at the table with them as they moved forward.

This is a very difficult time for northern Ontario. We appreciate that there were issues around the fibre. There were also issues around financing. There were discussions, of course, with Tembec in terms of the facilities themselves.

As I indicated before and I indicate now, this ministry is more than prepared to sit down with anyone as we move forward to help the folks in the north dealing with this very significant issue of forestry reduction. Biofibre and the biopellets are certainly one aspect, but there are many opportunities for the far north when it comes to the allocation of fibre.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

Mr. David Zimmer: My question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. The economic situation we find ourselves in in this past year has made the problems of poverty and the lack of affordable housing even more acute than they ever were. The investments our government announced in the 2009 budget will make a significant impact in meeting our affordable housing needs, but a main aspect of this investment was also to stimulate the economy and help to create jobs to help get Ontario moving again. Minister, how is our investment in affordable housing helping to stimulate the economy and, in particular, create jobs?

Hon. Jim Watson: Let me begin by thanking the honourable member, who is a former chair of Toronto Community Housing, under whose watch we saw the wonderful beginning of the revitalization of the Regent Park development. The honourable member should be congratulated for his leadership role in Toronto.

I was very pleased when the McGuinty government committed $622 million in funding for the affordable housing initiatives that our government has undertaken, and that money is matched by the federal government for a total of $1.2 billion. This investment will see 4,500 new affordable housing units being constructed over the course of the next two years. In addition, 50,000 existing units will be renovated or rehabilitated. As a result of this co-operative approach between the federal and provincial governments, 23,000 individuals will be employed due to this $1.2-billion investment. It's a good investment in jobs and people in this province.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. David Zimmer: Minister, I know that your ministry and you personally have been travelling across the province consulting community leaders, housing providers and other interested advocates in developing a long-term affordable housing strategy. One of those consultations was here in Toronto. The turnout was overwhelming; over 300 people came out to the Toronto consultations alone, and over 1,000 Ontarians have participated in those consultations province-wide.

Minister, what is the status of those consultations to date, and what have you been hearing about the affordable housing issue?

Hon. Jim Watson: Obviously, when you have close to 1,000 people who have come out to the 12 formal consultation sessions, you know there's great interest. I want to thank those members of provincial Parliament who also held their own consultations in their own ridings.

What's been pleasantly surprising for me is the cross-section of individuals who are coming to these meetings with open minds and good ideas—people from the home building industry, landlords, tenants, anti-poverty activists. They're all coming together in a spirit of co-operation to bring forward specific ideas that we can build into our affordable housing program that we hope to release in the late spring.

Our final public housing consultation that I'm going to be participating in will take place later this week in Thunder Bay. I thank those close to 1,000 people who participated. Individuals can still submit their ideas and their background from specific examples through the Ontario government website.

I thank the honourable member again for his dedication—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

ABORIGINAL RIGHTS

Mr. Randy Hillier: My question is for the Minister of Northern Development, Mines and Forestry. I'm sure everyone in the north today will be overjoyed at the minister's earlier statement, with the success of opening the hair salon and a dog team in the north. Maybe this is his solution for the Greyhound problem up there.

Who has sovereignty in Ontario? If Ontario has sovereignty on our lands, why was the Platinex mining company forced to get a court order to enter those lands? And despite this court order, Platinex was stopped from entering their land in August. Minister, do you understand the concepts of justice and the rule of law? And, Minister, who has sovereignty on crown land?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: I trust that the member was not truly picking on the young entrepreneur program in terms of being a wonderful thing for northern Ontario.

Interjection.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: It certainly did sound a bit like that.

Certainly, as I think the member will know, our government and Platinex have agreed to engage in confidential mediation to discuss possible options to resolve the ongoing litigation between the parties. We think that's a good step forward. At the same time, our government continues very much to pursue positive, ongoing efforts to build a stronger relationship with KI First Nation as well. So we feel, indeed, that this is obviously a sensitive issue in the province and northern Ontario. We are pleased that things are moving forward.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Randy Hillier: Well, of course we all know that a year and a half or so passed before we could get any discussion. I understand why people have called for your resignation, Minister. Platinex has stood down for a year and a half while you tried to sort out differences between your government and KI First Nation. KI First Nation stated publicly on many occasions that you never approached them during this time.

Minister, does Ontario own this land or does KI First Nation? Why have you failed in and ignored that duty to consult?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: We take our duty to consult very seriously, and we have certainly met that standard and more. The fact is that throughout this process, we made it clear—and certainly I did, personally—that we felt that the best possible way forward was to bring people together to voice their concerns and to have those discussions. Again, as I pointed out in the original answer, we have come to an agreement to engage in confidential mediation to discuss possible options in terms of resolving the litigation with Platinex.

Certainly our relationship with KI First Nation is an important one. I know that my colleague the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs will be going up to visit the First Nation later this week. Again, this is a delicate matter, one that we continue to pursue. In terms of our duty to consult, we take that very seriously.

ANTI-SMOKING LEGISLATION

M me France Gélinas: Ma question est pour la ministre de la Promotion de la santé. On December 4, this Legislature passed Bill 124, a bill to ban candy-flavoured cigarillos. The bill received royal assent, also in December, yet in stores across this province, any youth with $1.25 in his pocket can buy a candy-flavoured cigarillo. My question is simple: Why has the minister not enacted Bill 124?

Hon. Margarett R. Best: I thank the member opposite for her question. I did speak with the member opposite yesterday about this matter. I am well aware that this bill was passed on December 10, 2008. The legislation will be proclaimed, on a date yet to be confirmed, by the Lieutenant Governor.

This particular legislation amends the legislation that we have in effect now, the Smoke-Free Ontario Act: Cigarillos will be packaged in packages of at least 20. The amendment mirrors proposed changes to the federal Tobacco Act.

I also advise the member opposite that I am in touch with the federal member, and I am trying to ascertain what their position is and where their legislation is going at this point as well.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

M me France Gélinas: Today the Canadian Cancer Society held a rally right here in Toronto called Join the Fight. Everybody knows that every three minutes, a Canadian is diagnosed with cancer. We need to do everything to fight this disease and this minister needs to do everything to fight this disease. I would have thought that the Minister of Health Promotion would like to prevent cancer. Instead, your ministry seems to be blocking this law that was passed by elected representatives. We voted in favour of this.

The Ministry of the Environment was able to go forward banning pesticides from hardware stores in a couple of months. Why are we not able to ban flavoured cigarillos here in Ontario 10 months after this Legislature voted to do so?

Hon. Margarett R. Best: We, the government of Ontario, are committed to the health of Ontarians, and we are well aware that cigarette smoking kills 13,000 Ontarians every year. We continue to work to address the issue. The Ministry of Health Promotion continues to address this issue and so does the government of Ontario.

We are moving as quickly as we can to pass the legislation and we continue to work with our federal counterparts because they also have a similar piece of legislation. We are going to continue to work to address the issues that concern us and the people of the province. We have a number of different programs aimed at addressing the issues relating to smoking. As a matter of fact, in this province we have—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

WORKPLACE SAFETY

Mr. Pat Hoy: My question is for the Minister of Labour. Minister, I have heard several stories from my constituents over the past few years regarding violence and harassment in the workplace. It is clear that violence and harassment have emerged as serious issues in these workplaces. A recent Statistics Canada study suggests that one third of nurses working in hospitals or long-term-care facilities were physically abused by patients over this last year.

Both physical violence and harassment can have tremendous consequences not only for their workers but for families and society as a whole.

I know that your ministry has tabled legislation that, if passed, would require employers to put in place policies and programs to address workplace violence and harassment. Would the minister tell us more about this proposed legislation?

Hon. Peter Fonseca: I want to thank the member for Chatham—Kent—Essex for the question on this very important matter. I know that violence in the workplace has had a devastating impact on that member's community. I want to thank him for his advocacy and his help in helping us inform and shape the legislation that we have before this House.

Violence and harassment have no place in the workplace, and I want to reassure this member and all Ontarians that our government takes this issue very seriously. That's why we had a consultation that started in September 2008, with my predecessor. Through that consultation we heard the thoughts, the concerns and the need to bring this legislation forward.

This is the right thing to do, and I'm proud to be part of a government that is taking action on this very important issue.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The time for question period has ended.

USE OF QUESTION PERIOD

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from—

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: Leeds—Grenville.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Leeds—Grenville. I was going to say the leader of the official opposition. My apologies.

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: I appreciate your giving me the opportunity to defer this, and really, on the suggestion of the House leader from the third party, to have a bit of time to review some history related to these issues.

As I indicated yesterday, the point of order relates to the provisions in standing orders 23(

h) and (

i) and 37(

a) and your

interpretation of those orders. Speaker, as you well know, standing orders 23(

h) and (

i) allow you, the Speaker, to call a member to order at any time in this House if you feel that a member who has the floor "makes allegations against another member" or "imputes false or unavowed motives to another member." The wording is quite specific.

Standing order 37 speaks to your disallowing questions that you do "not consider urgent or of public importance." We very much appreciate the latitude afforded to you in your responsibilities as Speaker in terms of interpreting standing orders. But as well, Speaker, I'm confident that because of your years spent on the opposition benches, you very much appreciate the limitations the current rules place on our ability to effectively hold the government to account; hence the increased importance of how you interpret and apply those very restrictive rules.

I think we all share a common goal in this House to effectively serve the people who put us here. As Ontario's official opposition, the members of the Ontario Progressive Conservative caucus are obligated to hold this government to account using every tool available, and the most important one is question period. I would argue that Ms. MacLeod's question yesterday dealt with a very serious issue of both urgent and public importance: Liberal government accountability of the public purse, based on public accounts information released this past Friday.

We believe the taxpayers have a right to know why and how people with such clear ties to the Liberal Party of Ontario received such lucrative contracts, and they have a right to know right now.

Standing order 23(

i) notes that a member shall be called to order by the Speaker if he or she "imputes false or unavowed motives"—not in general, but specifically—"to another member" in the House. After reading yesterday's transcript, I see that Ms. MacLeod's comments in her supplementary were directed at the Liberal Party rather than any specific member of the Legislative Assembly.

We're obviously concerned that the

interpretation of standing order 23(

i) is being broadened to the extent that it will hamstring our ability to serve as an effective opposition. We need to get answer