PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 4 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, MARCH 29, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

March 29, 1971, Tape 51, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. HON. J.R.SMALLWOOD (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Leader of the House, the hon. the attorney General,has refused the refusal - has received a refusal from the hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House to the request of the Government that they expedite the passing of Interim Supply,as it has been presented to the House, before the expiration of the present financial year, I wish to inform the House that we will meet tonight and tomorrow morning and tomorrow night, and until say midnight on Wednesday, starting tomorrow morning at t~? o'clock until midnight_ on Wednesday to make sure that the Government are granted the money that the Government needs to carry on the ?ublic service.

MR. A.J.MURPHY (Leader of the Opposition); Sir, I would just like to say in response to that very irresponsible statement of the Premier's, that we in conference, I in conference, and I think the hon. member for St. John's West refused to pass this $100 million without extensive debate. I proposed to the Leader of the House that we would be prepared to grant one month's supply,for the month of April, so that civil servants and anybody receiving cheques would not be denied that.

We considered that the month of April was long enough, and do not let it go out to people in this Province that we are trying to keep anybody from getting any amounts due them in the month of April. We figure that $100 million is too much. We are prepared to grant one month's supply,whenever the Government is ready to acceed to us. If they want to debate it,we are quite prepared to carry on. MR. CFOSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak to that also. The statement that the Premier made is as entirely incorrect as the Leader of the Opposition has said.

We are prepared to agree to an amount of ten percent voted on current account last year. That is more than one month's supply. Ten percent of the amount voted in current account last year, which would give the Government more than enough money to carry on beyond the month of April this year. In any event7 Mr. Speaker, we have no intention of voting $100 million in this House without having some explanation and some debate on it. We are quite prepared to agree that the Government gets supply by Tuesday evening on the basis of ten percent of the amount voted last year. We w\11 not be threatened ?. ~ ~)

March 29, 1971, Tape 51, Page 2 - apb or bullied into moming, afternoon and night seaaiona. That does not deter ua, we are not going to be threatened into voting $100 million without some discussion in this House. MR. SPEAKER: Before we go into the presentation of petitions, I would like to draw to the attention of the Bouse the fact that we have in the galleries) visiting with us today, SOllle eighte.en girls from grade VIII, St. Pius X. They have with tbem,as visitors, a number of students from Notre Dame Academy in Labrador City. These students from St. Pius X, are accompanied by their teacher Mrs. Keating.

We also have in the gallery, the second group of Grade IX students from .Booth Memorial. I know there are about tvent.y-five of these students from Booth Memorial~ I know.that you will all accord them· a very hearty welcome. PRESENTING PETITIONS

March 29 1971 Tape 52 page 1. Presenting Petitions: Ell. J.A.MCGRATH Mr. Speaker, I have a petition here from the people ~i Point Lance in the District of St. Mary's.saying that improvements could be made on the road from Branch Highroad to that settlement of Point Lance. I might point out,Mr. Speaker, that Point Lance is easily the most isolated settlement in St. Mary's Bay and is now one of the more isolated settlements in my riding. Improvement o~ roads have increasing importance everywhere in Newfoundland,we know,in recent years, both for commercial and other purposes.

The use of school buses to convey children from small settlements to larger ones has again increased the importance of roads and the importance of having them in good condition. I realize that there are many other places almost as isolated,who require improvements too, but I think that any of these, there is no part of the country that need very special consideration more than these smaller isolated places ,that are doing their best to keep in touch with education and to get them to the best schools that they can for their children.

I trust that the Minister in charge of that Department would find it possible to give s~ecial consideration to these small settlements at the moment,Point Lance in: St. Mary's Bay, I therefore ask that the House would approve of this petition and that it be laid ori~.the Table of the House and referred to the Department to which it relates. MR.T.HICKEY Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my support to the petition. I am quite familiar with that stretch of road.having travelled over it for a number of years and certainly agree with the hon. member for St.

Mary's when he says that that community is among those isolated communities that are left in the Province. The road is a rather hazardous one as well and certainly I do not think any one who is familiar with it or who has driven over it would deny that something should be done with it I have much pleasure supporting that petition. MR,W.HODDER ·Mr.Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition

March 29 1971 Tape 52 page 2. on behalf of the .people of Burnt Islands. The prayer of the petition is that a water system be installed in the Town. Butut Islands is in two parts, Burnt Islands Island and Burnt Island Main. The island has been joined to the mainland by a cauaeway,a- .qoarter of a mile long,and - as a result it is no longer an island. The population of both places is approximately 1000 people, 350 on the island, the remainder are living on the mainland. All the wells in the area are contaminated and something must be done to supply pure drinking water for the people there.

I support the pray~r of the petition and ask that it be laid on the Table of the House and referred to the Department to which it relates. On motion Petition received: Presenting Reports of Standing and Select committees: MR.NEARY: Mr. s,eaker, I would like to table the report of the matters transacted by the Mi•ister of Labour during 1970 under the provisions of the Labour~Relations Act. 1 would also like to table the report of the Newfoundland Labour Relations Board for the year 1970 and also the report of the Proceedings of the Minimum Wage Board established under the Minimum Wage Act covering the year 1970.

In addition Mr. Speaker, I would like to table certain orders and re~ulations and schedules under the Industrial Standards Act which are attached to the report. These regulations are .(

l) c.the employment notice of termination, record regulations 1970. (2) the elevators regulations 1970. • 225

March··29th, 1971 MR. NEARY: Tape 53 JM - 1 alo, Mr. Speaker, ~ttached to the report are minimum wage orders that were issued in 1970 and industrial standards schedules. There are three industrial standards schedules in 1970, one was with the construction carpentery industry of Gander-Glenwood area, two plumbing and hydronic, co11111ercial ·and domestic industry in St. John's and three painting and decorating industry in the St. John's area. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: MR. SMALLWOOD: Question 199,on today's Order Paper (

a) Jacobs Engineering Company of California (

b) Peat, Marwick, Mitchell on the financial side and the Dick Engineering Finu of Toronto on the practical side. Question 200 had better be addressed I think to the acting President of the Treasury Board under whom it comes. Question 216,in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's East on today's Order Paper. The answer is yes. Question 223 MR. MARSHALL: Will the hon. the Premier say who? The answer is yes but I wonder would he tell us the names of the three firms? . MR. SMALLWOOD: No. Question 223,on today's Order Paper, in the name of the hon. the member for St.

John's Centre, the Leader of the Opposition. The answer to the first is no, the answer to the second is I do not know, the answer to the third is I do not know and the answer to the fourth is that I am not able to answer it at the moment but I will answer it perhaps before the day is over and,if not.some time tomorrow. Question 286,on today's Order Paper,in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's West. The answer to the first

part is no, the answer to the second

part is yes and the answer to the third

part is none, at any rate no bills, no payments made no bills received. Question 29R,on today's Order Paper,in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's West. This is the question I think that has already been answered. The report.I believe,has been tabled but, at all events,the question ought to have been addressed to the hon. the Minister of Hines, Agriculture and Resources. 236

March 29th., 1971 Tape no. 54 Page 1 Mr. Roberts. Mr. Speaker, there are a great number of questions on the Order Paper addressed to me and only two or three of them I am able to answer now. Question no. 207, asked by the hon. gentleman from St. John's East. Will nursing schools be established in Central and Western Newfoundland? If so, when? For the hon. gentleman's information, Mr. Speaker, the school in Western Newfoundland has been in existence for little over two years.

The matter of a nursing school in Central Newfoundland is a matter of policy and, of course, it i~ not dealt with in an answer _to a question. Question no. 208, again today's Order Paper, asked by the hon. gentleman from St. John's East. Have any requests for prosecutions1under the Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance Act? been made by the Minister? The answer to that · question, sir, is no. Question .no. 212, the answer is yes. Question no. 213, the answer is no. MR. MARSHALL: Ou Question no. 212, could the minister inform when the paper will be tabled? _MR. ROBERTS: At an appropriate time, Mr. Speaker. MR.

ROWE (F.W.): Mr. Speaker, I wonder, if I could direct the attention of the hon. member for Burin to Question no. 263, which he asked on today's Order Paper. I was checking with our officials this morning on that question, and they tell me that they can get it ,on reasonably short notice,that information for educational distircts, but to get it for electoral districts would be extremely difficlt and a time consuming process, which they estimate might require (I did not go into details on this) several weeks. So, I bink,with educational districts, you could strike a fairly rough estinate 2~7

March 29th., 1971 Tape no. 54 Page 2 Mr. Rowe (F.W.) as ta how it would apply. So, I will undertake to get that information within a day or two. BON. J. NOLAN (Minister of Economic Development): Question no, 102, Mr. Speaker,in reply to a question asked by the hon, member for St. John's East: Atlantic Sugar Refineries Co. Ltd., Marystown Shipyard Constructinn Limited •• MR. CROSBIE: Is this a long list? MR, NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member would consider six firms . as a long list, I could arrange to have it tabled. I have named two.

Mooring Cove Building Company,Limited, National Sea Products,Limited, Provincial Building Company.Limited and Steers,Limited, The first two, again, Mr. Speaker, Atlantic Sugar Refineries Company,Limited and Marystown Shipyard Construction, Limited. ·question no. 103.in reply to a question asked by the hon. member for St. John's East, The answer is, none. Question no. 104, again from the hon. member for St. John's East. The answer: Mr. D. Peper, Chairman~ Mr. H. G. Dustan, Vice-Chairman and Mr. H.J. Coombs, The answer to part (2) of Question no. 104: at pleasure and the answer to part (3) of 104, nil.

Question no. 105,from the hon. member for St. John's East. Liat all l~ans made by the Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation outstanding as af 31 December, 1970 and to give,in each instance, the date of the loan made; the amount of loan; interest rate;

schedule of repayment; security held and if fire insurance policies, in the case of secured properities, are hypothecated to Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation? Answer: 2~8

March 29th., 1971 Tape no. 54 Page 3 Mr. Nol.xi. Atlantic Sugar Refineries Company,Limited. There are sundry dates involved in this in answer to the date's question. The balance •• of the 31st. December, 1970, $2,501,465. 2~9

March 29th. 1971 Tape 55 PK - 1 MR. NOLAN: Interest rates eight and a-quarter percent, and eight and three­ quarters percent. The

schedule of repayment equal semi-annual installments over twenty years. The security mortga~es on six trawlers, insurance, the answer is "yes." The next item Hotel Buildings Limited, again sundry dates, the balance as of 31st. December, $6,450,000. The interest rate six and a-half percent and seven and a-quarter percent. The

schedule of repayment·on demand. Security notes of Crown Corporation and on the insurance question again the answer is "yes." Next the Marystown Shipyard Construction,Limited,sundry dates again; the balance $5,070,000. Interest rate six and a-half and seven and a-quarter percent.

Schedule of repayment on demand. Security notes of Crown Corporation~ title in name of the Crown. And on insurance,in favour of the Government and Newfoundland Fisheries Development Authority, Next the Mooring Cove Building Company7Limited, again sundry dates, the amounts $1,847,000. The interest rates, six and a-half percent and seven and three-quarters percent.

Schedule of repayment equal semi-annual installments over twenty-two years. Security lease purchase agreements dated as of 1 June, 1970 with Mooring Cove Building Company,Limited,to be assigned. Insurance in favour of Mooring Cove Building Company,Limited. National Sea Products,Limited, the date the 16th. of December, 1970. The balance $1,700,000. The interest rate is eight percent, ~qual semi~ annual installments over eighteen years. Security and mortgage and on the insurance question the answer is "yes." Newfoundland Pulp and Chemical Company,Limited, sundry dates again, the balance $2,500,000. Eight percent.

Mortgage to ~e executed. Title in name of the Crown. No buildings. Steer's 1 Limited - 4th. of July, 1969, $716,485. Eight percent, equal semi-annual installments over twenty years. The security mortgage and the insurance auestion again, the answer once more is "yes." Sea Mining Corporation,Limited, sundry dates, $2,800,000. Interest rates seven and three-quarters percent, equal semi-annual payments over 21~0

March 29th. 1971 Tape 55 PK - 2 MR. NOLAN: fif.teen years -. mort:,:a,:e. once more is "yes." The answer to the insurance question And finall,y, Paragon Hotel,Limited, 14th. of July, 1967, a.$133,800. Seftll percent, equally monthly installments over twenty years. Second lllOrtgage,Royal Trust.- ajtents._ And finally, Mr. Sp.eaker, the answer to QueJJtion No. 153 HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speak.er, 241

March 29, 1971, Tape 56, Page 1 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: That question ,as a supplementary question. In answering question 102, ''To whanhas Newfoundland Industrial Corporation made loans since 31st. December '68?" The hon. Minister gives six companies. Now, in the answer to 105, which is, ''List all loans outstanding as at 31st. December 1970: the Minister has given eight names,I believe. How is it that the answers to these two questions disagree?

In addition, looking at the answer to question 222 on the Order Paper of last. year, there are other companies listed there •t:o whom loans have been made by Newfomidland Industrial Development Corporation which the minister has not listed in the answers to these questions, such as Provincial Buildings Co,Ltd., Newfoundland Steel Co.Ltd., and others. Why the discrepency? HON. J .A .• NOLAN (Minister of Supply and Services): I can account I think. hopefully, for the discrepency in the contradiction apparently in questions 102 and also 105.

That is; the information on 105 was passed into me just a few moments.while I was on my feet, and as a result there may be a discrepency there which I will be more than happy to check, Mr. Speaker, for the hon. member opposite. Question 103, MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, on 105, before the minister goes on. The loans advanced,to all of the companies named, are interest payments due? If so, have all of the companies paid their interest at the time they.are due? If not, which ones have done? MR. NOLAN. I will take it as notice of question. That is not the question I was asked, or questions asked.

I have attempted to provide the information here that was asked formally. MR. T.A.HICK!-tAN: Will the answers to these questions be tabled Mr. Minister? Is it the minister's intention to table the answers he has just given? MR. NOLAN: It is my intention to table if necessary, the answers supplied that I have just read. Question 103, Mr. Speaker, the answer is none. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible): MR. NOLAN: I see. 2 •9 l.1 ,.,

March 29, 1971, Tape 56, Page 2 - apb MR. NOLAN: There is one final one that I missed, and that is no. 153, from the hon. member for St. John's East. I knew I had it here in the papers, and again the answer is none. That is no. 153. BOW. E. DAWE (Min~ster of Municipal Affairs): Mr. Speaker. I beg leave to table the answer to question 222,on today's Order Paper,asked by the hon. member for St. John's Centre. Question 238, asked by the hon. member for St. John's West,on today's Order Paper, the answer to the first part of the question is thirty-seven. The answer to the second part of the question is two.

This is a normal turnover of vacancy, and the project is prac.tically fully occupied, The answer to the third part of the question, as the financial year is not ended, it will be some time before the information requested is available. MR. CROSBIE: A supplementary question there Mr. Speaker. In connection with the 160 subsidized rental units at Marystown, the minister as at March 1st. 1971, there are two occupied of the ••••••••• MR. DAWE: Two unoccupied I am sorry. MR. CROSBIE: Two unoccupied, oh that makes a big difference. The first part of the question, thrity-seven occupied or unoccupied? MR.

DAWE: Unoc.cupied )'Ir. Speak.er. MR. CROSBIE: The minister did not say that, so. MR. DAWE: I am sorry. MR. EARLE: A supplementary question on 238. Mr. S~eaker,, of the houses occupied at Maeystown, mentioned in this question, can the minister ascertain and advise the House how many of these houses have been occupied by families receiving social assistance presently,either long term or short term? If so, what rate of rent are they being subsidized in? MR. DM~: Mr. Speaker, I regret that I cannot supply that answer immediately take but I can/it undervisement and get the answer for him. I will table the answer.

I should repeat this, the answer to question no, 1, thirty-seven unoccupied, question no, 2,two unoccupied. I am sorry that 1 misread that. In answer to question no. 250 on today's Order Paper, asked by the member for St. John's Centre, I table the answer to that question, no. 250. 2~3

March 29th, 1971 MR. DAWE: Tape 57 JM - 1 The answer to question 249,on today's Order Paper.asked by the hon. member for St. John's Centre

(1) Is an apartment at Pleasantville provided for the use of or rented to Memorial University? The answer is no. MR. COLLINS: Before we get to Orders of the Day,with your permission, Sir, I would like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that a very distinguished delegation from the town of Gander are in the Speaker's gallery,in the persons of the Major, Mr. Sheppard; Deputy Major, Mr. Daley; the To,m Manager, Mr. Baker; Councillors, Mercer, Ansty and Dawe. I do not know if the Gander Council is recognized as the larger the delegations the more one might take away from the Treasury.

You can certainly see that they have come well equipped in terms of numbers. I want to welcome them to the House and hope that they can return to the Town of Gander with most of the things, at any rate, which they are requesting. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. CROSBIE: On Orders of the Day, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. the Premier a question.

Would the hon. the Premier tell the House whether his trip to New York over the weekend had any connection with the request from the Government of Canada that the cost of the wharf and related facilities to be constructed at Come-by-Chance,by the Government of Canada~ should be guaranteed by the Province or by the oil refinery project or by Shaheen Natural Resources Incorporated? MR. SMALLWOOD: The answer, Mr. Speaker, is that the Government of Canada have made no such request and that our visit to New York had nothing to do with that or with anything else connected with Come-by-Chance. MR.

CROSBIE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker, before we proceed to the Committee on Supply. I wish to bring to Your Honour's attention that in ay submission the House cannot proceed to Supply at all until the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne has been dealt with. Mr. Speaker, I refer first of all to Beauchesne, that great Parliamentary authority, fourth edition 1958, page 188 where Beauchesne states that the House shall appoint the Committees of Supply and Ways and Means at the commencement of every

March 29th, 1971 Tape 57 JH - 2 MR. CROSBIE: session ae soon as an Address has been agreed to in answer to His Excellency's speech. So soon, Mr. Speaker, as an Address has been agreed to in answer to His Excellency's speech. Mr. Speaker, the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne has not yet l been agreed to in this House.

The Lieutenant Governor's speech was delivered on March 22nd, the debate has not yet started on the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne and I submit to Your Honour that,since we follow,as the Standing Order states on page 1 of our Standing Orders of the House of Assembly state on page 6, "In all cases not provided for hereafter or by sessional or other orders,the usages and customs of the House of Commons of Canada, as {n force at the tim~ shall be followed so far as they may be applicable to this House." Mr.

Speaker, there is nothing in our Standing Orders on this subject as to whether we can go into CoUDDittee of Supply ,and Ways and Means before or after the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne. The matter is covered in the House of Commons. The usages and customs and standing orders of the House of Commons ,are that the Committee of Supply and Committee of Ways and Means are not to be appointed until the address is agreed to. I therefore submit, Mr.

Speaker, that that is the practice that should be followed and must be followed in this House, that the Government cannot move to the debate on Interim Supply now until the Address in Reply is finished and that therefore some other order will have to be moved by the Leader of the House. MR. SPEAKER: I do not think there is any great debate necessary. I will not deprive anybody else, of course, of the opportunity to take

part in or discuss this point of order - if anybody wishes to do so, I will not give the ruling now until I have heard them. If anyone wishes to say anything in relation to this point of order which has been raised, I will be prepa~ed to await their help and assistance and give my ruling a little bit later. If not, I can only say this; what the hon. member for St John's West has quoted is exactly correct. I can say as well that (1) it is a little bit late, because we have already gone into Committee of Supply and have taken up part of the debate, (2), we have been accustomed, all down through the 245

March 29th, 1971 MR. SPEAKER: Tape 57 JM - 3 years in this House and it has been a well established custom to debate Interim Supply before the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne has been concluded and nU1Dber (3), if I may draw the attention of hon. aembers to page 201 in the same authority which the hon. member of St.

John's West quoted - tt says here, I will not read every bit of it but it goes on to show that it is adviseable to have the Committee of Supply after the Address in Reply has been concluded but it is not entirely necessary, It is adviseable to have it done after the estimates are tabled but it also states that this has been done on other occasions without the Address in Reply being concluded, ln any case,even if this authority had not been there~it has been our custom,ali down through the years.to have Interim Supply debated in Committee and,therefore,I see no reason why we should change it _at ~his particular time •.

The motion is that I do now leave the Chair: MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, in connection with your ruling. I refer to Beauchesne page 201, there is no time limited,under the rules ,for the estimates to be brought down,but the standing order 55 - MR. SPEAKER: I have given the ruling. ,he hon. member has stated his case and I have now given my ruling. The only thing that is left for the hon. member to do - I appreciate what he is attempting to do but at the same time we do not debate the ruling. It only can be appealed to the House. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to appeal to the House on two grounds, one that Beauchesne says it is good practice to table the estimates shortly after the address has been disposed of and the second reason, Mr. Speaker - MR. SMALLWOOD: State appeal, no words, state appeal and nothing else. MR. SPEAKER: Will the hon. member please remember that an appeal to the Rouse is not subject to debate. · MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, where do we find the usages and customs - MR. SMALLWOOD: Sit down, obey the rules. MR. CROSBIE: Where do we find, Mr. Speaker, - MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

I am informing the hon. member that I have given my ruling, There has been a debate with regard to the point of order

March 29th. 1971 Tape 57 JM - 4 MR. SPF.AKER.: vbieh vaa raised by the hon. member.a~ I can quite aee hie point . but I have given my ruling and it is no.t subject to debate. There is an appeal to the House,if the hon. !llelllber vishea to do ,ao. MR. CROSBIE: Y•, Mr. Speaker, I would like to appeal your ruling. ~- SPEAXER:· The motion before the Rouae.therefore~i• that the ruling of the Chair be sustained. Ia the Bouse ready for the question? Those in fawur "Aye," contrary "Nay" Mil. CROSBIE: Divide, Mr. Speaker. 247

March 29th. 1971 Tape 58 MR. CROSBIE: Divide. MR. HICKMAN: There is no need to divide. MR. CROSBIE: Divide, divide. MR. SPEAKER: Let the House divide. AN. HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! MR. SMALLWOOD: All Tories on their feet. MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please. MR. CROSBIE: He does not like it. MR. SMALLWOOD: Where is the other Tory Leader? MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. MR. SMALLWOOD: Bring in the other Tory Leader. MR. COLLINS: Inaudible. Division: PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Will all those in favour of the motion please rise, The hon. the Premier, the hon. the President of the Council, the hon. Mr.

Lewis, the hon. Minister of Highways, the hon. the ~..inister of Municipal Affairs, Mr. Noel, the hon. the Minister of Labrador Affairs, Mr. Hodder, the hon. the Minister of Education, the hon. the Minister of Public Works, the hon. the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources, the hon. the Minister of Provincial Affairs, the hon. the Minister of Public Welfare, Mr. Canning, Mr. Barbour, the hon. Mr. Hill, the hon. the Minister of Supply, Dr. McGrath, Mr. Lane, Mr. Saunders, Mr. Wornell. Those against the motion please rise; Mr. Hickey, Mr. Marshall, Mr. Collins, Mr. Earle, ~r. Hickman, Mr. Crosbie.

I declare the motion carried. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY T-fR. CHAIR~AN: Order, please. The Resolution before the committee is that it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide For The Grantin~ rf Supply To Her Majesty For Defraying of Expenses Of The Public Services For the Financial Year Ending the 31st Day of March 1972. The initial sum is $99,780,000. 2-:8

The Committee is now studying the Schedule. 'Ihe motion is; "Shall Item (4), Finance, carry'?" KR CROSBIE: Mr Chairman, when we adjourned on Friday, I was speaking on this item, which is a block vote of $750 for the Department of Finance. Mr. Chairman, the total vote on Current Account, for the Department of Finance, voted last year, when we had before us the estimates, so that we had some information before us, was $2,682,000. Now, Mr. Chairman, $750,000 is approximately one-third of that vote. It is certainly in excess of one-quarter of that vote.

The Minister bas not given us any explanation whatsoever as to why the Government should now ask this House, today, to vote in excess of twenty-five per cent of the total amount voted by the House last year, for the whole year, for the Department of Finance. $750,000 is easily in excess of three months '

March 29 1971 Tape 59 page 1. vote for the Department of Finance. Why is this necessary? Why is it necessary to ask this House for more than ten per cent of that vote last yeartThat would be $268,000. That should be more than enough to carry the Department of Finance for the next six to eight weeks. Why sho.uld·. the Minister ask this House,Mr.

Chairman, and expect us to blindly vote them $750,000 for the Department of Finance,a third of last year's total budget.without telling this House what the total was that the Department of Finance spent last year or whether they are going to ask for Supplementary Supply for the Department of Finance for last year, tbe·.:)ear just ending? This is a block vote for Finance. Finance, Mr. Chairman,is in charge of collecti~g taxes for the Govenrmen~ includin~ SSA Tax,. Liquor Tax and the rest of it.

This is the time now for the Minister to tell the Bouse what happened to the $410,800 that Atlantic Brewing CompanY, Limited owed the Government of Newfoundland last year, and just what the position is now that Bison Petroleum or whatever company has purchased certain of the assets of Atlantic Brewing Company ,Limited • . What is the position on that $407,000? It is tim~ now for the Minister to tell us,Mr. Chairman, whether the Government has done anything to help or to assist the Newfoundland non-securEttcreditors of Atlantic Brewing Company Limited.

The Newfoundland'firms and companies who were not secure, had no mortgage on these assets , who were not the Government, who were owed altogether some $342,000 by Atlantic Brewing Company Limited. Why did not the Government take some action to protect these Newfoundland Firms and Companies? Three hundred and forty-two thousand_dollars is owed by Atlantic Brewing,which was the brain-child of the Government, supported by the Government, helped by the Government, given letters by the Premier showing them that they did not have to pay any tax. What is the Government's position with respect to its $400,000?

We are told that the Govern­ ment is going to get five or ten year bonds from Bison Petroleum. The Government is only a non-securEt}creditor. How was the Government able to get these bonds from Bison ,that it did not get for-- thiLNewfoundland creditors who were owed 2~0

·March 29 1971 Tape 59 page 2. $342,000 and many of them cannot afford to lose it, what is the story on that? rhat information the House should have before the Department of Finance is vote• $750,000 for this yea?". -.:would the Ministet" tell the House how he p~oposes to deal with the huge amounts the Government ~ave borTowed in the past several year, without sinking funds,that have to be Tepaid in the next two years.From Aprill 1971 to March 31, 1973 the Government is going to have to repay,to people who loaned this Province money $104 million, $21 million,in round figures,for the Power·conunission, $82 million for the Government direct.

The total amount of sinking funds that at"e available to meet these huge Tepayments in two years are $2, 845,000. '(hat is what the Minister told us last year,in answer to question 229. So that this Government has to find in the next two years.apart from all the othet" borrowing it is going to do, and we know the deposit for this year is $103 million at le_ast, '103 million. The Government is going to have to borrow $100 million in the next two years to pay off old loans that have no sinking funds. What is the Minister planning to do about that~ How does he ;plan to arrange that?

An average of $50 million a yeaT,in addition to borrowing at least another $100 million just to keep the Province afloat, the Government afloat. We are going to have our own curnncy ,I think,our own currency. \lhat part of the $750,000 now being voted is going to go towards that purpose.Mr. Chairman? Could the Minister elucidate on that position for us? Since the Minister of Finance is Tesponsible for the budget and the estimates and the rest of it, could the Minister now tell the Committee,Mr. Chairman, when he is going to table the estimates for 1971-72?

This is the end of March, the end of March 1971, can the Minister now tell the House will it be next week, ot' two weeks time or four weeks time that we will get the estimates for the expenditure for the ~ear 1971-72? Why is it,this delay? Can the Minister tell the House when he is going to table the Public Accounts? When he is going to table the Auditor General's Rllport? How can the Minister ask this House,Mr. Chairman,to vote 251

March 29 1971 Tape 59 page 3. $100 million without even telling us when we are going to see the estimates for the year 1971-72, that starts next Thur~day? The next financial year starts next Thursday. S~rely we have the right to expect that the Government can give us the estimates of that expenditure. Why can it not? Last year we were told, when the same situation came up March 11, last year, we were told that the estimates were prepared by the Government in November of the previous year. When we asked questions in this committee last year,Mr.

Chairman ,we were told,time after time,the estimates were inaccurate, inaccura•e because we prepared them last November and now.four or five months have gone by.that is why these estimates are inaccurate, when the various Cabinet Ministers were questioned. Are we going to get that same story this year? Because if the estimates are ready now and were pre~ared last November,why have we not got them? Why are not the Lieutenant Governor's Waraants filed? How much did the Department of Finance spend last year? Was tt the amount shown in the estimates or twice as much?

Why does the Minister need in excess of one-quarter of the whole amount he had for last year,to spend in April and lfay this year? Does not need to be. It is not the water that is spiked around here it is the Government that is spiked. Every day is another spike in the Government. 1 am only asking several questions now.Mr. Chairman. 1 will get down to the serious debate,if the Minister does not answer them. What about the great reclassification of the Civil Service; Mr. Chairman? Last year we were told by the Government that the whole Civil Service was being reclassified.

Public Associates,l t•ink the name was,of Chicago, were doing a personnel study of the whole service, there was a new classification scheme.all the civil servants were going to be delighted with it once it came into being. We have not been told a word since as to whether this is now in effect or not. We have not been told what Public Jervice:Associates of Chicago were paid for it. W~ have not 252

Karch 29 1971 Tape 59 page 4. been told whether the Government has accepted it or not. We have not been told whether this is a subject now of collective bar8ainin~ with the civil aervants or the Government. In fact the Minister has not told us an~thing. about Labour Relations with the Civil Service, as yet, br the police and the rest of them. Do we have some information on that? All we ask for - we had a little statement about the Minister had sat with the interns, There are about thirty interns in the Province add about 8~00 civil servants and about 6,000 teachers.

The Minister made a statement that the Government has settled everything up with the interns for the next two years. read and memorize it. The Minister should In the Minister's Department comes Royal Commissions. The Royal Commissions are paid out of the Minister's vote. Last year - It is in order - Every bit in order - Yes, wonderful is it not? The Government should not have to ask for Supply twice. If a Government did its right job and asked for Supply once it would only be debated once. When the Government does not do its job properly and ask for lupply twice,then it is debated twice. have to go by.

The same applies to the Premier. Those are the rules we Under Royal Commissions, in the estiaates for the year ending Thursday, there was an amount only of $40,000, provided for, unless it was increased in the Blue Book,about $40,000. Could the Minister tell us how many Royal Connnissions have been paid out of that since? What did the Royal CoDDllission on Forestry coat? We were told last year that,up to date last year was $55,000. We were told that up to a year ago the Fraser Commission on taxation,of the city of St.

John's,was paid $23,735. lhe Fraser Commission was appointed in December,, 1965.That has gotten into the fat and has not surfaced yet. We are told today, Mr. Chairman, that the Fraser Connnission report on the City of St. John's is not given the Government now. J.t was appointed six years ago. That beats all records for Royal Commissions,in history,i~_this Province. A Royal Commission 2;;3

March 29 1971 Tape 59 page 5. appointed six years ago, paid $23,000 up to one year aio. Has it been paid anything since? Why hes not the Government taken that Commission away from Mr. Fraser; if he cannot do the job 1and given it to somebody else? Why is it allowed to go on year after year for six yearst Forestry $55,000 what else was spent on that Royal Commission this year? There is the Royal Commission on the radiation problem in St. Lawrence.Has that commission been paid yet and, if ao,how much? int.SMALLWOOD: How did that $40,000 get spent this year? A point of order,Mr. Chairman.

The point of order is this,that we are now debating item 4 of the Schedule, Finance, $750,000. I would like to know from Your Honour if it is in order now for any member of this House to talk ~ under the Heading of 4, Finance, talk about the Liquor Commission.Municipal Affairs and Housing, Fisheries, Economic Development, Labour, Highways, talk about any one of these items,after Item 4 or preceding Item 4,on the grounds that it is Finance! Anything you like en this sheet, the right hand side,that

Schedule is money. It is Finance. Money is involved. Now we are at heading 4. Finance. Does this mean that under Heading 4,Finance .we can talk about anything on 'the paper because Finance is involved in everything on this sheet? 254

11W March 29th., 1971 Tape no. 60 page 1 Hr. Crosbie. Mr. Chai.D1W1: That is not a point of order. The hon. the Premier is asking the Chairman a question, which he knows the Chairman cannot answer. MR. SMALLWOOD: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, it is a point of ordeT. It is a point of oTder. I want to know if it is in order for any hon.member of this House, under Heading IV, Finance,to talk about anything in the schedule, because Finance is involved in everything in the scheduler MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, in case the hon. the Premier has not been listening, I am talking about Royal Commissions which, in the main estimates, are Item 404-03 - specific heading, Royal Commisions. My submission, if Your Honour wishes a submission, is that we are entitled,with a block vote for the Department of Finance, to discuss the business of the Department of Finance and that includes Royal Commissions. \ Shall I continue? The Aylward Commission at St. LaWTence, has that been paid for? Was it paid for last year or is part of this $750,000 to pay for that commission. What is happening?

Well the Adam's Commission, we knvw, is not dead. The minister has not spent any money on that. What is the minister going to do about the Royal Conmission on the City of St. John's/ Ia he going to permit it to~ on month after month, year after year, piling up bills and not doing its job. ls that what part of the $750,000 is for? There was $600,000 spen.t on Royal Commissions in the last several years. What good are we getting out of them? We have them that will not even report. Would the minister tell us why the minister 255

March 29th., 1971 Tape no. 60 Page 2 Kr. Crosbie, found it necessary this year to float $30 million in loans on the ~anadian Market direct - Newfoundland Government Loansi a $22.5 million loan on the U. K. Marketi a $20 million in EURO dollar bonds, February 41 1971; a$ 25 million loan on the New York Market, March.IS, $97.5 million? Why did the minister borrow that money this year, in the year just ended? It is gone I somewhere. We want to know why the minister found it necessary, Bis predecessor told us,taaf year.that he was only going to borrow $29.5 million. He borrowed $97.5 million. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Chairman, to a point of order. This Item (4) 1 Finance, $750,000,is a request of the Govemment that the House, this committee, then later the Rousegrant 1 and this interim amount, this provisional amount. This is something on account. If it is in order.,in discussing this,to consider and debate the year almost ended, the present year, this is for the coming year but,if it is in order to debate the present year, is it not equally in order to debate the year before the present one and the year before that and any year in our history?

If debate is not to be confined to this amount for the coming year, but the debate can range over the year just passed, why not any year and why not any year in the future and why not have a far and wide ranging debate of the type you have. when the budget is brougnt down the full estimate : Because re-.ber, ~- Chairman, this $750 1 0001 if the committee vote  it and reconanends it. to the Rouse, the Rouse votes it, and the Government. get it, that is not the end of the debate.

This amount has to be caught up in the estimates that are to be brought down, the full estimates, a book an inch thick,with several thousands items in it,and undP.r Head IV, Department of Finance, every last individual item, making up 256

March 29th. 1971 Tape no. 60 Page 3 Mr. Saallwood. this $750,000 and millions more with it. Every item has to be laid before the Bouse, debated, (debate is proper), questions asked and answered. It is not as though our approving now tbia I 750,000 ends the committee's opportunity or the House's opportldy to debate this. 'Ibis is only Interim Supply. 'Ibis ia something on account to be followed by the full, complete detail ·of this amount and a lot more with it.

With the Committee of Supply and the Committee of Ways and Means, both committees and the Bouse, with every possible opportunity to debate it, is it proper now to have a far-ranging debate on everyone of these items in view of the fact that the rules of the Bouse provide for a far-reaching debate on all of these items, when the estimates are brought clown and the Budget Speech is brought downi What is the purpose of a Budget Speech Debate and a debate on the full estimates, if there can be a full and far-reaching debate now on merely Interim Supply? 257

MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. Can I reply to the point of order Mr. Chairman? l can or I cannot? MR. CHAIRMAN: All I understand it, having read the authorities, the practice is in other pla~es that when the Bouse is asked to vote for what is called in other jurisdictions"• vote in advance," or an "advance on the coming year," the resolution contains a schedule. The

schedule shows the money which the Rouse is being asked to vote. Bon. members are entitled to debate any item shown on that

schedule to the same extent as if it were the main estimates. 0a the other hand, they are limited to the item shown in the schedule, and cannot debate anything except -~at is shown in the schedule. The practice in other places has been to specify_. in slightly more detail perhaps. than we have in the

schedule which is before •us now. I would like to draw the attention of hon. members to the fact that this is a vote for an advance. What the committee has been asked to deal with now will be dealt with again in the estimates.

According to the constitutional authorities, and the authorities on procedure in the House, and in committee on an interim resol,ation or a resolution for an account in advance, !t is stated quite clearly . that the best practice is. that there is no full debate held, because the Government is merely asking for an advance and that the whole matter comes up again in the Budget Speech and the debate on the estimates, where there is even a better and a more far-ranging opportunity to members.

So that what is happenin~ here,actually, is that members are debating now,at some length, exactly what they will be asked to debate when the estimates are passed down. In other Houses the time is limited. In other words~ in the Bouse of Co111110ns in Ottawa and the House of Commons in London, the time for Interim Supply, a vote in advance, is limited to only say one day and a-half or something of that nature. The debate is limited to a very short time on Interim Supply.

Unfortunately or fortunately,as the case may be, in this House we do not have such limitations, and members are free now to debate the heading of these items, bearing only in mind the breakdown which the minister may give at the commencement of a particular resolution. In other words, if the minister gives a breakdown as to how the money is to be spent that he puts here, that is the 2;:;3

March 29, 1971, Tape 61, Page 2 - apb only restriction on the right of debate. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman ••••••• MR. MURPHY: If I may,Mr. Chairman, on that point of order, Beauchesne 239, says," the whole management of a department may be discussed in a general vay when the Conanittee of Supply is considering the first resolution of the estimate of that department 1 which reads as follows in general administration.'·' Now, as far as we are concerned, we have reached. MR. SMALLWOOD (J .R.): This is not the estimates. MR.. MURPHY:. This is a Committee of Supply, Interim Supply. MR.

SMALLWOOD: It is not the estimates. MR. MURPHY: We know it is not the estimates. Is that not what we are kicking up all the ructions about? Where are the estimates? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! Apparently the Leader of the Opposition did .not understand me. We have here a

schedule which say~under the present item - item 4, Finance $750,000. Now, when the hon. the minister introduced that item, he gave a breakdown of the headings under which $750,000. was to be spent. These are the headings that are open now to the widest debate. MR. SMALLWOOD: And nothing but. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, we do not need the help - you know the hon. the Premier is not the dictator yet. There are some rules in this House even he has to go by,Mr. Chairman. We are attempting to go by the rules. The hon. minister is attempting to get $100 million without any explanation. What is in a million?

Now, it is what is in $100 million? MR. SMALLWOOD: If that is not a lie ••••••••• MR. CROSBIE: That is not a lie, that is one hundred percent truth. None, no explanation, and the hon. the Premier getting up and sticking you on points of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order: order please! MR. CROSBIE: The hon. the Premier knows well what the truth is and what is not. AN RON. MEMBER: Sit down when the Speaker stands up. 2r;9

March 29, 1971, Tape 61, Page 3 -- apb MR. CHAilOIAN: As far as the Chair is concerned, that point of order has been dealt with and will the hon. member for St. John's West please resume. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, if we are going to be restricted to what the hon •.. MR. CHAilOIAN: Order please! Will the hon. member please be relevant to the item before this Committee. MR. CROSBIE: The item before this Rouse is the Department of Finance, $750,000. which includes salaries for every branch of the department, general administration.

It includes royal connissions, includes pensions and gratuities, it includes Auditor General. MR. CHAIRMAN: If the hon. member does not wish to continue his speech, I will have to ask him to sit down. MR. CROSBIE: Is the hon. the minister •••••••••• MR. RICKEY: Point of order, are we under the new rules now? MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): Inaudible MR. RICKEY: I d:fdnot think,Mr. Chairman, that language was permitted. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please: order. When an hon. member of this House ia atanding, he should be speaking, and he should be speaking relevant to the point before the committee.

The point before the committee now is item 4, Finance. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, before we can proceed, there is a clarification. The Chairman has said that we are restricted to the breakdown the minister gives when he says what the amount is being voted for. Are we to get this breakdown in writing so that we will know what the breakdown is as we go along? Or, are we to go along blindly? If that is what we are to be restricted to, surely, the least we can have in this House,on this side, is a breakdown from the minister of what the items are.

All we have had is one short verbal indication by the minister as to what the amount is. MR. CHAIRMAN: If I may say so, the minister 9 at the co111111encement of this debate, gave totals for practically every item under his department, so I do not really know what the hon. member is worried about. MR. CROSBIE: That is what I thought.Mr. Chairman, but I do not have a record of it. If we are •••• 260 , ..

March 29. 1971, Tape 61, Page 4 - apb MR. CALLAHAN: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: The hon. minister has had every oppoTtunity to explain these items. Instead of that, his cohorts on the other side say "carried" every time there is amoment of silence. AN HON. MEMBER: They get carried away. MR. CALLAHAN: Why not? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, to get back to this, to Beauchesne. Beauchesne states a full discussion of the country's expenditures •••••••• MR. CILURMAN: Order, order please! The point before the committee now is an item for finance. If the hon. member for St.

John's West does not wish to proceed with the debate on it, perhaps he will yield the floor to aomebody else. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, I will try to be relevant to this particular vote, vhich is very difficult under the circumstances. I would like to refer to some of the items which are covered under this heading. on which we have no information whatsoever. AN HON. MEMBER: That is not so. MR. CROSBIE: That is so. MR. EARLE: We have no information whatsoever. If the hon. minister will AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR.

EARLE: If the hon. minister will allow me to proceed, we have no information whatsoever on the things which I am about to question. If I am incorrect,Mr. Chairman. that the information was given on Saturday •••••• AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. EARLE: I will sit down. MR. CROSBIE: There was no information given on Friday. MR. EARLE: I will have a seat,Mr. Chairman. MR. SMALLWOOD: The two leaders are sitting together at last. MR. CROSBIE: Three cheers for the two leaders. hip, hip, hurrah. hurrah MR. SMALLWOOD: Two hearts that beat as one. MR. CROSBIE: Hurrah, no heart. there is no heart beating over there. MR.

EARLE: Mr. Chairman. I think I have the floor.

March 29, 1971, Tape 61, Page 5 - apb MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, if you please. MR. EARLE: · Mr. Chairman, here we are 262

March 29th. 1971 Tape 62 MR. EARLE: approachinF. the last day of the Financial Year and we are asked for $100 million approximately. AN HON. MEMBER: $750,000. MR. EARLE: Included in which is $750,000. PK - 1 What I would wish to ask, Mr. Chairman, in the light-of the Minister or the Acting Minister of Finance, or the Vice-Chairman of the Treasury Board or whoever is answering these questions, in the light of the fact that he is asking for $750,000 advance, which is according to my reckoning on last year's estimates th~ee and a-half months supply.

This would cover from thre~ and a•half to four months supply, $750,000, The Department has been provided over recent years with a most '1fficient, up-to-date system of accounting ,the latest types of idea and computers and so on. There is a staff of over one hundred to prepare all of this data. And, yet, here we are approaching the end of the Financial Year and we do not have before WI the expenditure of last year, 7hat is why are are being so adamant about asking questions on the projected expenditure for next year.

If the hon. minister will listen instead of talking to one of his colleague~ he may hear what I say. MR. CALLAHAN: Inaudible. MR. EARLE: We have in his department the latest of equipment and yet we do not get the facts at this stage, we have nothing on which to base this request for the coming year. MR. CALLAHAN: The hon. gentleman was not in the Rouse Friday, he does not know. · MR. EARLE: The hon. gentleman knows far more than the hon. minister knows about this particular situation. There is no earthly reason, there is no . reason whatsoever, Mr.

Chairman, that the Govemment should not be in a position at this time to divulge to this House all of the facts conceminr, what was spent last year up to this point. They have the latest of equipment with which to do so. And, yet, they have the audacity to come in here and ask for three and a-half to four months of Interim Supply, ,,.in other words, to 2G3

March 29th. 1971 Tape 62 PK - 2 MR. EARLE: allow them to pay next year's bills without having explained to us what was spent last year. I am very sorry indeed that the Minister of Finance himself is not here to answer our questions. is unfortunate that he is ill. I believe he is on a leave absence, and it hecause, I think that he would do a much 1110re better job than we are carrying the present time. Unfortunately he is one of the few ministers on the other side of the House who has not appa~ently sought or been given at least an· executive assistance.

Now, if there is · any department of Government which requires an exe-cutive assistant, the minister requires an executive assistant. It would be the Department of Finance, the most !aportant operation of C..overnment,in which all our revenues are collected and all of our expenditures are made. Yet for some unkno,.m reason this minister can be p.iven leave of absence, because he is i~l, and yet there is no executive assistant to carry on.

We are ~ettin1t it from those who are proported to speak for him, the most meager of information t~urthennore, we are getting from them the greatest resistance ever, to giving any information,on the pretext that this will all be divulged later on. Well just how well is it ,toing to be divulged? This is another reason why we are asking questions at the present time. As my hon. friend the member for St.

John's Wes~ just mentioned, last year in the Budget Speech on Estimates, which were debated very fully indeed, and we thought we had asked all necessary questions at that time, and received honest, fair answers, but at that time it was stated that the Province would be going to the bond market for $29.5 million. It now turns o~,nearly twelve months later,that they went to the bond market for $97.5 million. Surely, that item alone , is a sufficient cause for us to question a request at this time for what will be three and a-half to four months money to carry us through the New Year.

How do we know in the light of these statements which were made last year,which were not borne out during the twelve months and did not work out as predicted, that any three and a-half or four months supply will 2G4

March 29th. 1971 Tape 62 MR. EARLE: we grant now will not disappear in one month, and then the budget will be brought down. We have no evidence to show what tt will be spent on nar how it will be spent 11or any detail of how it will be spent, and yet, we are being asked blindly to give three and a-half to four months supply. So that they c~ spent it as they see fit. ~ased PK- 3 on last·ye~r!s experience,taking that bond requirement as an instance,it could well be that this much money would be dispensed very hastily in one month, and no explanation given.

Just one point that I should like to make in the matter of the Atlantic Brewery last year. We read something about how this matter has been brought to a conclusion. I hope from certain points, certainly from the employment standpoint it will be satisfactory_to the people of Stephenville. But the Government apparently,in making this arrangement or sponsoring this arrangement,made no provision whatsoever for the salaries of employees who lost their jobs through the failure of that brewery. The first claim generally,in the case of trouble of this nature,is to protect the salaries of those who lose their jobs.

The Government apparently has taken some steps to protect its $410,000, which it waa owed, but even that on a very free-and-easy basis insofar as they will get bonds for; ten year bonds, interest free bonds, So that actually the $410,000,at today's rate of interest, by the time they are paid up will be nearer $800,000. The Government is just allowing this to go on. These are the reasons,Mr. Chairman, why we are asking the questions on an astounding sum of nearly $100 million ·to cover the first three and a-half or four months of the coming year.

Whether I was here Friday or not, I am prepared to venture a statement that no detailed explanation has been given to this House. MR. CROSBIE: That is right. '4R. EARLE: There has been no detailed explanation ~iven to this House. I think, if there had been it would have been reported in the press:,and radio, and I listened intently over the weekend. So there has been no 2C5

!'larcn lYcn. ~~,1 Tape 62 .t'l( - .. MR. F.ARLE: explanation. All that the Government side is teying to do is teying,in their usual manner,to bulldoze and bully this House into accepting eveey ~equest that they make,without question. If the House had proceeded along the normal lines and told us what they had spent last year, we had been given the opportunity to debate what ext~a money they· Tequire to cover last yearts over expenditure, then we would be in a far IIIOTe len:lent·:modd to approach the coming year.

But . not knowing that, and ~ot having any idea of that, and on top of that not knowing in detail what this $100 million is required for, this side of the House would be more than delinquent in its duty, if it passed a single item covered by that without the most detailed examation. MR. CALLAHAN: Inaudible. MR. EARLE: Perhaps the hon. Minister of Social SeTVices and Supply needs a few extra pencils so that he can draw his little black ass and little white ass, so that they can chase along. Have you ever seen, Mr. Chairman, as infantile as t~at kind of thing we were treated to on T.V. MR.

BARBOUR: I would like to direct a question to the hon. member for Portune. Does he really think within his own heart and soul that the Government carelessly, needlessly, oishonestly spend the money? A few moments ago you said; they may spend it and there may be no account given of it. I do not think that this Government is capable of such a thing. And, I think, we are wasting a lot of time in this hon. House, and if you really knew your business, and if you were interested in the welfare of the people of Newfoundland and Lab~ador,you would pass this estimate without any more trouble. MR.

EARLE: That is a question, Mr. Chairman, which I am veey happy to answer, I am as interested and more interested in the welfare of the people of this Province,from what I am saying. And furthermore whether it is honest or dishonest, it is most certainly careless the way this Government spends its money. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, there are a few points with respect to this vote 2G6

March 29th. 1971 Tape 62 n- s MR. MARSHALL: on Finance~ Auditor General is one of the items, one of the broad items fer which we were given an amount of $87,000, I believe, the other day. Before this is passed, there are certain questions that should be asked with respect t .o the Auditor General .'• staff itself. 2G7

March 29th., 1971 Tape no. 63 Page 1 Mr. Marshall. I say before this is asked, there are certain questions that must certainly be answered. The Auditor General's-Report, the last Auditor General's Report that was filed here in this House, the Auditor General noted that he had not adequate staff with which tn carry out his duties and he needed more staff in order to be able to function properly. There is nothing more important to the business of this Province than that the Au~itor General be given adequate money and adequate staff to carry out his duties.

I would like to know, I would like the minister to indicate whether and how many additional ~osts have been created for the Department of the Auditor General? There is also the position that the Auditor General's Department - it has been stated or it has been indicated that the Auditor General's Department is moving from this building. It is moving from the Confederation Building to the Second Floor, Elizabeth Towers. This is a grave mistake. Elizabeth Towers, itself, was a mistake.

But to move the Department of the Auditor General, there is no department or division of a department in this Government, which, of necessity.must go from one department to the other more frequently than the division of the Auditor General. We know that the Auditor General,from time to time,has made reports on the Government which have been very painful to the Government. One wonders, whether it is being pushed out of this building so that it will impede its work that much more.

Certainly, it ought not to be taken out of the Confederation Building and certainly it ought not be put into Elizabeth Towers ,to further subsidize the mistakes of this Government with respect to that giant colossus on Elizabeth Avenue. The thing which bears scrutiny, Hr. Chairman, is the vote for the Civil Service Commission. I am, in a moment, going to move the amount of $15,900,which was indicate to be part of this total vote on Interim Supply, be reduced to the sum of $1.00. We have the situation here, 2C8

Karch 29th., 1971 tape no. 63 Page 2 Mr. Marshall Mr. Chairman, in the Civil Service, where the Civil Service Commission ie not functioning properly,to the detriment of the Province. It is moat necessary that commissioners of the Civil Service Commission be appointed from the Civil Service itself. This is the provision in other provinces of Canada. We have a situation here, in this Province, where, at present, there are only two commissioners. Mr. Courage died recently.

One of the present commissioners was the defeated candidate of the Liberal Party in the Gander By-Election. the other, I understand, is an individual who had been working in the Liberal Party before. This does not do anything at all to strengthen the Civil Service. We have a Province of this nature, where the Govemment are so integrally entwined in the affairs of the country. We have a depressed economy>such as we have,where we need the leadership that we do from the Government. It is most necessary that we have a strong Civil Service, The Am.ulree Report in the 1930's,which was the harvinger of the ••• MR.

CHAIRMAN: I may say that this is not a budget debate. What we are debating here now is certain, particular estimates. By any stretch of the imagination, it is hard to see how the Amulree Report has anything whatever to do with the $750,000 which we are talking about here. MR. MARSHALL~ Mr. Chairman, I am on the item of the Civil Service Commission for which there is an amount of $15,900 voted here. I am going to move and I move now that this amount of $15,900 be reduced to $1.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The amount recorded here is $750,000. MR.

MARSHALL: Well I would move that the amcnmt of $750,000 be reduced by the amount of $15,900, which is the amount the hon. minister indicated was to be provided for the Civil Service Commission. MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is ••• MR. SMALLWOOD The minister did not give any information. We have it 2G9

March 29th •• 1971 Tape no. 63 Page 3 Mr. Smallwood. from the other Tory leader. He gave no information to the House. MR. MARSHALL: The minister, Mr. Chainnan, gave a breakdown. He gave a breakdown. MR. SMALLWOOD: He gave no information. Mil. MARSHALL: The minister gave the amount of $15,900. MR. SMALLWOOD: Somebody is lying. So•one is lying. Either the hon. gentleman who is now speaking or the Tory Leader from St. John's West. Someone is lying. MR. MARSHALL: The amcnmt was $15, ••• MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! It is not that someone is lying, if we get contradictory statements in the House.

Would you please continue? MR. MARSHALL: I thank the hon. the Premier for his usual gentle approach. Now, Mr. Chairman, we co.me to this Civil Service Commission, and I have made this motion: It is absolutely necessary. as I say, that we have a good, strong, Civil Service Commission. This is not being set up here in this Province. The Civil Service Commission, as we now have existing, appoints,and all you have to do is read the annual report of 1970 to see the numbers that the Civil Service Commission recomnends. They are now relegated to very minor points.

There are a fair number of Shorthand-Typists there; Officers Grade 1, II, III, IV, etc. But you cannot operate a tc,vemment (There are very few Directors. There might be about half a dozen) ••• MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, when a member is speaking, the rule is quite clear. be asked. opposite. He can only be interrupt~ if he permits a question to Kr. Chairman, we are being interrupted by several gentleman 270 \

March 29th., 1971 Tape no. 63 Page 4 MR.CHAIRMAN: I do not quite know what the wish of the committee is about this. Generally speaking, members do not object too strongly to certain minor'interruptions. As far as the Chair is concerned, the member is entitled to speak without interruption. This afternoon ve have had far too many interruptions. MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and I thank the hon. member for St. John's West. I can assure the House that the interruptions I have had have been very minor in nature. We come back to the point in issue.

I feel that it is imperative that we have commissioners appointed from the Civil Service itself, which is something we do not have, that is. number one. Number two, there should be a type of examination system set up within the Civil Service so that appointments and promotions come from within the Civil Service wherever possible. I do not feel that this is being done. I do not feel that the Civil Service ia properly staffed.

The people who are staffing it now, the commissioners, I have no doubt •-~~8.Y may be competent men in some areas, but it is absolutely and positively essential that the Civil Service of this Province be the strongest type of organization that you can possibly have. I do not feel,as I say.that the Civil Service - the Civil Service of the Federal Government - the Civil Service Commission of the Federal Government operates in an admirable fashion. Newfoundland can expect no less than that. The Royal Commission on economic prospects points out the lack of a proper type of Civil Service.

I think that steps ought to have bee~ taken long, long before this to improve the Civil Service Commission. I would hope that the House would go along with this motion to reduce and cut out, in effect, the Civil Service Commission for the next few months. There is a Bill that is going to come to this House, which will give, effect to that which I say. But there are three points that must be home in mind. First of all the Civil Service Commission ought to be - the commissioners ought to be appointed from the senior Civil Service itself 271

Karch 29th., 1971 tape no. 63 Page 5 Mr. Marshall. Secondly, it is imperative that the jurisdiction of the Civil Service Commission be widened considerably to include many, many more phases of many, many more posts than it presently considers. thirdly, we must establish for once and for all that promotion in the Civil Service is through the merit system. therefore, Mr. Chairman, I make that motion. MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is that the &1110m1t in Item (4) be reduced to 1~$734,100. Those in favour please say, "aye." Contrary, ''Nay." 'l'he motion is lose. MR. CROSBIE: Standing Vote, please,_Mr. Chairman. 272

March 29th, 1971 MR. CHAIRMAN: Tape 64 Those in favour of the motion please rise.

(7) Those against the motion please rise. (13). The motion is defeated. Shall the Item carey? MR. RICKMJ\N: O~e of the items referred to MR. rALLAHAN: Is the motion carried? JM - 1 MR. HICKMAN: No, the motion was not carried. That is only wishful thinking on the part of the hon. Minister. MR. CALLAHAN: all again. Another act to keep us back, I will have to go through•it MR. HICKMAN: No, no that would take you a whole half a minute, that would take the Minister about half a minute, Mr. Chairman, to give the information that he gave to this hon. House on Friday. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please!

Would the hon. member please continue. MR. HICKMAN: One bit of information that the hon. Minister did give to the Committee on Friday was that he required $29,000. to pay Royal Commissions. Now I think that this Committee is entitled to know what Royal Commissions are to be paid and this would give us an opportunity and give this Conmittee an.opportunity to discuss whether or not Government in its wisd01D feels that the work of the Commission and this House feels justifies the expenditure that the Minister has in mind.

I do not know and neither has the Minister of Finance indicated whether any of the monies to be voted or asked to be voted under this particular head is to be paid to Royal Collllllission on radiation and safety in the mines at St. Lawrence. The last time this ... MR. CALLAHAN: Would the hon. gentleman like me to answer the question now and then he will not have to as well. MR. RICKMAN: By all means,and the amount. MR. CALLAHAN: If I did not say it on Friday, Mr.

Chairman, the amount to which the hon. gentleman refers in respect to Royal Commissions deals with the Royal Commission on Labour Legislation, it is not $29,000. it is $4,500 in respect of that one Royal Commission~and that is the amount we are discussing. 273

·rape b4 Jl"l - ,t. MR.. RICKMAN: This is the only Royal Commission that is going to ~e paid or will the hon. Minister indicate MR.. CALLAHAN: During the . currency of the Interim Supply. HR. RICKMAN: Well in that case, Mr. Chairman, I suggest that this is an amount that should not be paid at this time, the Royal Commission to ot' examine the labour laws of this Province and if there is one set~laws that should be examined and re-examined and brought into the twentieth lt- century,is the labour laws, the restrictive labour laws that we have in the Province at this time.

The Royal Commission under the chairmanship MR. REARY: '; (Inaudible). MR.. RICKMAN: Are you going to keep these yahoos quiet, Mr. Chairman, or are you not? I have a perfect right to speak and I do not have the time to give my speech in baby talk for the benefit of the hon. the member for Bell Island so I assume he does not understand what we are talking about anyway. I do submit, Mr.

Chairman, that in 1968 or 69 Dean Cohen, tbe·. former dean of McGill School of Law, was appointed to examine the labour lawa of this Province and to make recommendations as to how these labour laws can be brought up todate and made more effective,from the point of view of the working people in this Province. That is approximately two years ago. That Royal Co111111ission,under Dean Cohen,was authorized to hire and did hire at least one expert to assist him in his studies and in examining and comparing labour laws in other Provinces and other jurisdictions.

That Royal Commission at the same time was given the services of one or more highly qualified civil servants in the public service of this Province. We have now waited for two years. It is obvious, Mr. Chairman, that whatever report is handed down or submitted to Government by the Royal Conanission on labour laws it will not be submitted in time for enactment during the current session of the House of Assembly. I say, Mr. Chairman, that if out of this vote of $750,000. monies are to be used to pay the Royal Co111111ission on labour then this Co111111ittee should not vote them one single, solitary cent.

Is this Conmittee being 274

March 29th, 1971 MR.. HICKMAN: Tape 64 JM - 3 asked to buy a pig in the poke, are we being asked to pay for something that Government has not seen, that is not completed? We do not know if it is going to be good or bad. We do know that many good reports of Royal Commissions have been massacred, not implemented, twisted and turned •. ½e only have to look at the statement of the hon. the acting Minister of Labour;on the Royal Commission on radiation in St.

Lawrence . to see how the people of that community have been bluffed and cajoled for two years, two solid years since that Comnission filed its report with Government, Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: We are on Royal Commissions. MR. BICKMAN: We are on Royal COllllllissions. We have also been told by the hon. the Minister of Finance that the only information that is available at this time for this Bouse is now being made available. We cannot have a Supplementary Supply Bill because we have not reached the end of the fiscal year, we will not reach that until tomorrow. It is quite inconceivable that this has not MR.

CALLAHAN: (Inaudible). MR. HICKMAN: If the hon. Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources wants to resign his portfolio and become Chairman.I am sure that we could drag him kicking and screaming and plank him in that Chair. Until he does that, Mr. Chairman, I intend to be governed by your ruling and nobody else. MR. CALLAHAN: (Inaudible) • MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! Now I think the matter has reached the stage where members are complaining so violently about being interrupted that I will have to say tlat if there are any further interruptions from this particular speaker,! will send for Mr. Speaker. MR..

HICKMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When we are dealing with this vote of $750,000. to quote your very famous speech of last year, Mr. Chairman, where you stated once again what is a pretty strong concept of Parliamentary procedure in the British system of Government,as ·we know it,that if there is one feature of the Legislative process which requires due and careful diligence of all hon. members,both in Committee and when the Bouse meets in 275

March 29th, 1971 Tape 64 JM - 4 MR. HICKMAN: it aesaion,~s the control and the diligence that must be used over the spending and the expenditures of public funds. There, Mr. Speaker, is where it is relevant, most relevant~to expect of any Minister introducing or participating in the debate or trying to give information(or failing to give information is aore to the point under any particular heading in this Bill)that he be subjected not only to questioning from this side of the House but from hon. members in the House generally.

The hon. the Minister of Finance would lead us to believe that we cannot get this information, we cannot get an indication as to how the money was spent last year after this Bouse adjourned,and this is very relevant because,if you know how much the Department of Finance spent last year or overspent,then we can be expected to judge fairly accurately whether the amount now being sought by the Minister is indeed necessary or whether this vote of $750,000. is substantially in excess of that which need be required in an Interim Supply Bill. Mr.

Chairman, may I draw this Committee's attention to the fact that obviously when you read the report that is contained in the prospectus that was recently filed in New York,in connection with the bond issue of the Government of this Province for 25. million dollars 1 that it is obvious that there have been many warrants issued under the Revenue and Audit Act during the past fiscal year. MR. CALLAHAN: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I am under the impression that you have already ruled, Your Honour, on the matter of relevancy in this debate.

Is the prospectus recently filed in the United States and the Auditor General's report and Supplementary Supply, are these matters relevant to the item we are now discussing? I would like your ruling, Your Honour. MR. HICKMAN: On that point of order, Mr. Chairm·an, may I draw Your Honour's attention to the fact that under the general administration under the heading Finance there is included loan and debt management. I would 276

March 29, 1971, Tape 65, Pagel -- apb MR. T.A.RICKMAN: be presumptuous enough to suggest that under the category of loans, debt management comes the borrowing powers and the borrowings of this Province administered by the hon. Minister of Finance. I submit that this is a very relevant comment to the debate, insofar as this particular heading is concerned. Thank you~ MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, we have already dealt with debt management. MR. RICKMAN: The Chairman has just made a ruling. AN HON. MEMBER: It is a point of order.Mr. Chairman, MR.

CAI.LABAN: A point of order we have already dealt "'1th, and voted upon that item. MR. CROSBIE: They would not admit that Friday, MR. HICKMAN: Am I allowed to proceed Mr. Chairman. AN RON. MEMBER: The Chairman has ruled MR. CROSBIE: I was just going to point out,Mr, Chairman,that we were not allowed to discuss that Friday, The hon. minister did not want it discussed ' on Friday. MR. BICKMAN: Mr.

Chairman, this committee in trying to ascertain the public necessity for this House to vote the Interim Supply of $750,000. that is now requested by the hon. the Minister of Finance, is entitled to have laid before it, all information that is presently available to the Minister of Finance with respect to last year's expenditures. We have been told that Supplementary Supply estimates are not available at this time, because, they have not as yet been completed, Mr.

Chairman, may I draw this committees attention to the fact, that under the Revenue and Audit Act, when any warrants are issued, any Lieutenant Governor's Warrants are issued, they can only be issued,(and these warrants are issued for expenditures not authorized by this legislature last year) they can only be issued if the minister takes upon himself the very solemn duty to write the Lieutenant Governor and say that it is of urgent necessity that these monies be spent at this time, even though, they were not voted. Then, the legislature, in order to keep a committee such as this fully informed, imposes 277

March 29, 1971, Tape 6!, Page 2 -- apb an obligation on the minister that within fifteen days from the opening of the Rouse of Assembly, these Lieutenant Governor's Warrants must be tabled. lt is true that fifteen days have not expired as yet since this House opened, but Mr. ~hairman, it must be obvious to anyone that all warrants that have been issued to date are presently available. They are in the hands of the hon. the Minister of Finance right now.

There is one piece of information that he could make available to this committee, that he could have made available to this House on opening day, but he chooses,Mr. Chairman to keep it in the confines of his cold, secretive little heart, and we are not supposed to be given this information to enable us to decide on the adequacy-_, and the necessity of voting $750,000. to the Minister of Finance at this time. Mr.

Chairman, it is obvious to me, and I am sure it must be obvious to the other members of this committee, that not only do we have in this committee and in this Bill a marked departure from the British Parliamentary system, and we hear so much about it when it suits Government's purpose ••• MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! We are not discussing the British Parliamentary System. It is item 4, Finance, please be relevant. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, I refer to your remarks that in other Houses we find in detail ••••••••• MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! my remarks are one thing, and the hon. members are another.

Now, the item we are discussing is 4, Finance. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, the simple fact that must become apparent to you.Mr. Chairman, and apparent to the members of this committee, is that there is no way that Government is going to submit relevant information to this committee as to how Government proposes to spend this $750,000. during the next one, two or three months.

Unless Government is prepared to do that, then we are only driven to one conclusion, that this theory, this great principle of Parliament's control over the power of the purse is being treated with absolute contempt and disdain by the Minister who now seeks the approval for this vote. I,Mr. Chairman, feel that any hon. member, and this includes hon. members on the opposite side of the House,who have as little information as we have should never place themselves in a position where they could vote blindly 278

March 29, 1971, Tape 65, Page 3 - apb for this type of vote. When we know of what particular, this is $400,000, for a commission, and so far we do not know what they are doing and we suspect that it is very little. MR. NEARY: If the hon. member gets his name in the paper, he will stay home again tomorrow. HR. BICKMAN: I was down in Burin. You dare not go down there again after closing that welfare office. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I would like to point out now,if I may, that the hon. member for Burin, who was so vociferous about being interrupted while he was speaking, vu then carrying on a conversation which was interrupting the Leader of the Opposition. Would you please carry on. HR. SMALLWOOD: Which Leader of the Opposition Mr. Chairman MR. MURPHY: Ho, ho, ho, ho. Mr. Chairman, I think we have discussed, as a matter of fact, I am sure we have discussed at great length this particular vote.

Possibly, just to sum up for a minute or two, why the purpose of this debate, I think each speaker in turn has made it abundantly clear that looking for $750,000. in this particular instance,and a total vote of $100 million, is not at all .necessary at this time. There are one or two items I would like to refer to myself, and I think the hon. member for Burin referred to the lone segment of this vote. I am just won~ering, through this Government's handling of ·~ts finances, such as huge sums for Interim Financing, not bringing down the supplementary supply, what effect it is having outside this Province.

I think it is rather significant, Mr. Chairman, that a short time ago, or in the process, we are floating a loan of $25 million which is costing this Province 8.9 percent. Our Sister Province of Nova Scotia is floating the same amount at 7 percent. I believe that . our handling of our financial situation has not been too good,as far as handling of loans is concerned in the money market. I just want to refer now, to the statement made by the hon. Premier,when the House opened,with reference to, if we do not grant this supply, this $100 million pretty soon, we will meet morning, afternoon and night. I think the

March 29, 1971, Tape 65, Page 4 -- apb hon. member for St, John's West put forward the case that we are not to be bullied, threatened or anything else. I would like to say.,on behalf of the official Opposition, and perhaps on behalf of the other Leader of the Opposition who is not here'in the chamber at the present moment,- that we do not intend by any means to deprive any civil servant or anyone else that receives allowances in the form of cheques from this Government, of anything for the month of April. We are quite prepared to grant supply for one month, the 1101lth of April.to this Government.

If they cannot or will not prepare eupplementary and have the estimates ready by the end of April, then we will aeet again and discuss AN BON. MEMBER: Who is threatening now? MR. MURPHY: Threatening? I think I am going overboard to accommodate·;this so-called Govemment. We w11i then, at the end of April at that period, if we have not our estimates and our budget over by that time, and there is no reason why we should not have the~ over. We have been told time and time again that the Governm_ent has been working on estimates since last September, that is seven months ago. AN BON. MEMBER: Who said that? MR.

MURPHY: The hon. the Premier. AN BON. MEMBER: The other Leader said that. MR. MURPHY: The hon. Premier said that, yes, the other leader, the other leader facing me. You do not listen to our favourite program in the morning. That is what is wrong with the hon. minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! 280

March 29 19ll Tape 66 page 1. MR.MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, we figure that there should be approximately three to four months Supply being asked for at this time. We do not know what the Government plans to do with these monies. The Mi.nister gives a statement, Royal Commission so on and so forth,but is the Government definitely committed to spend these monies if something occurs tomorrow, next week that might be of some political expediency1 There is no guarantee that these monies would not be pent for that particular purpose.

Last year the total budget of Finance was $2;434,000. 1:he Government is now looking for approximately one-third of that amount. I presume the people·of the Province are getting the message. What ia happening here in the House the past couple of days and possibly for the next couple of days is that the Opposition is not blocking any monies to the Government for the running of household expenses ,that we are suite prepared to grant these expenses for one month.

We do not know,this has been pointed out a dozen times and I think it bears repeating,how many hundreds of millions of dollars over and above the budget were spent since the last time we talked about money in this Rouse. Now, Mr.

Chairman, as I say, we have reached a stage where we have discussed things, this matter of Finance.and we have several other large departments to get to, and I now will make a motion that the amount of $243,400 that the amount of $750,000 be reduced to $243,400,which is ten per cent of last year's budget,,not one-twelfth but one-tenth.because we realize that there are some increases so on and so forth to be paid and we are willing to agree to at this moment the amount of $243,400 for the Department of Finance.

In our opinion,notwithstanding what the ~remier insinuates,this is an indication on our part that we want our civil servants,our welfare recipients, mothers' allowance cheques, pension cheques and everything else should be paid in the month of April. So Mr. Chairman. I have much pleasure in moving that the amount of $750,000 be reduced to $243,400. MR.W.MAR.SRALL: this motion. Mr. Chairman, there is nothing that could be more reasonable than Inte~hl 0 Supply is for this purpose. We have been told, the Hon. the Premier has indicated that per~aps we should not speak, on Ieterim Supply about 281

March 29 1971 Tape 66 page 2. atters,because they are yet to come up before us in the estimates. But he overlooks the fact that we are being asked to vote on not one, not two, but three or four months of Government spending and certainly in all conscience we would have to inquire into the reason for this expenditure in greatest detail and exactitude before he could allow it to go through. Now the motion that the Bon. the Leader of the Opposition has made is purely and simply that the Government will be given ten per cent of the amount of its estimates and vote of last year.

This is really truly something on account.-which the Government speaks of. Ten per cent is truly something on account and this is really all the Government should ask for and it ia:: an.-aemineti.tly , seg~ible ·. · uggestion. It points up the fact that we in the Opposition are all for the Government carrying on for the very short bit of time it has yet to carry on and to give it funds but we want ta .,control the funds within the bounds of some type of reasonableness and rationality. MR. CHAIRMAN : Motion is that the amount be reduced to $243,600, those . in fa~our pl•ase say •aye; contrary, "nay".

The motion is defeated. Those in favour pleaae stand. Those against please stand. The motion is lost. Shall the item carry? Carried. Item 5: Provincial Affairs: $240,000. MR.FRECKER: Hr. Chairman, I do not think there is need fo~ auch .... explaaation.s'the Department of Provincial Affairs,as it is well known,is not a large-spending department. We will be taking care,on an interim basis,of our salaries and of Emergency Measures Projects, if we have any arise.

Basically we are asking for what we consider will be necessary to carry on for the next few months, two or three months, and it is approximately a quarter of the expenditure that we are anticipating, well that we have had for the past fiscal year, this fiscal year closing on the thirty-first of March of this year. The gross estiutes for the Department of Provincial Affairs for the current year have been approximately $9OO,OOO.out of that we have had some aid from Ottawa in the form of reimbursement 282

March 29 1971 Tape 66 page 3. and this year .Mr. Chairman, we are anticipating a little extra expenditure on Capital Account. We had none this current year ~ecause we are working on completion or the Department of Public Works is, on the completion of the Culture Centres and the Marine or Fisheries Museum at Grand Banlt and the Museum to be at Hearts Content,which means .in effect~tpat we have to anticipate or place orders as quickly as possible,to make sure that when these museums are ready for official opening and so on, that they will·not be just without anything . in them.

Culture Centres at Grand Falls and Gander, there is a recreation centre in process of building at Gander and there is a Culture Centre being completed at Grand Palls. No doubt hon. members saw pictures in the papers at least in the Government Bulletin, showing the skeleton:of the building that is now in process . of erection at Grand Bank. Apart from that, apart from the provision we are making to try to be up to date with regard to these buildings.,which are under the charge of- the hon. Minister of Public Works, we have to do certain things about them to get them furnished and everything.

Apart from that we have no anticipated expenditures that are going to scare or frighten either the public or the hon. members of the Opposition. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I wonder would the lllinister give us a breakdown under the various subheads of the expenditures? MR.FRECKER: Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member 283

March 29th., 1971 Tape no. 67 Page 1 Mr. Frecker. would look at the current estimates, they are practically there. I do not have the exact amount on each •. That is why I said we have approximated a quarter of this year's expenditure, allowing, as I have explained for practically the same expenditure. Perhaps, i few-little increase. For instance, we just recently appointed two assistants in the division of Consumer Affairs. Well we have had to provide salaries there.

But basically there is nothing in the Department of Provincial Affairs which is calling for extraordinary expenditures ezcept the cultral centres and -recreation centres in the coming year. MR.. MURPHY: What about the Bulletin? MR.. FRECKER:'. May 1 say, Mr. Chairman, that the Government Bulletin; so much maligned,will be looked upon with a great deal of interest by succeeding generations. MR.. HICKMAN : Mr. Chairman, the hon. the minister, can he advise the committee or give the collllllittee a breakdown of the expenditures to date on the various cultural centres at Gander, Grand Falls and Grand 'Bank? KR.

FRECKER: As I was just going to say, that comes under the hon. Minister of Public Works. As I have said, we need to anticipate certain expenditures now, very soon now, if we are going to be up-to-d9te.to keep up with the work that is going on, under Public Works. MR.. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, be.fore we carry this, perhaps, the llinister might be inclined to give us a little further information with regard to the centre at Gander. The swiaming pool sec~ton is well underway. I noticed it on the weekend, when I was home.

I wonder could the minister indicate to the House what the plans are for phase two and phase three, which would be the Arts and Culture Centre, plus the gymnasium, when construction is supposed to get started? 284

March 29th •• 1971 Tape no. 67 Page 2 MR. FRECKER: Mr. ,Chairman. I rather feel that this would be better answered by my hon. colleague the Minister of Public Works. At the present time, the swimming pool aspect of the complex at Gander is under construction. That is number one. Now when the othemwill be built. judging by the way the Opposition is acting this afternoon, I could not say when we expect to have the others ••• MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, that is merely dodging the question on the part of .the minister. Be refers me to the Minister of Public Works.

We all know that the Minister of Public Works only gets construction going when some project has been approved. In this particular case, of course, it would have to be approved by the Minister of Provincial Affairs or by the Premi~r hi,nself. Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, the Premier might be willing to indicate to us when the two phases might be expected to get started? MR. SMALLWOOD: I am very proud.

I am very, very proud indeed to be able to say that all three centres, magnificent and noble additions to the cultre and recreation of this Province, will all be finished, completed and we will open them in the month of July, the last day of June or very early July. If the hon. member, temporary member for Gander District,is good 1 if he is on his best behaviour, we might even invite him to be present at the formal opening. I do not know about Burin, the member there. We are not fond of renegades in this Government. MR. CROSBIE: That is a vintage speech. That deserves a real hand clap.

That does - the Government and renegades. What the Government like is someone who will give them a $100 million cheque without asking any questions. They do not like renegades who want to know what the money is to be spent on. Now, Mr. Chairman, while the Premier is giving so much information of Expo buildings, perhaps he will tell the House what the three buildings are 285

March 29th., 1971 Tape no. 67 Page 3 Mr. Crosbie. going to cost now,at Grand Falls, Gander and Grand Bank, all together? We will remember the Expo buildings that were going to cost $750,000 total, not a cent over that. Last year, we were told that up to the end of December 1969, there had been $1,364,000 spend on them. Grand Falls, $881,000; Gander $265,000; Grand Bank, $217,000. The estimated cost of them all were $3,400,000, That is Grand Falls, $1.5 million; Gander $1,078,000; Grand Bank, $812,000.

That was a total of $3, 400,000, considerably in excess of the $750,000 that the Premier assured everyone that they were going to coat when these temporary sUDDD.ertime buildings were bought from Expo, from Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. What has the total reached now? Is it $3,400,000 or is it $5 million or is it $6 million? What are these going to cost/ That is only the construction cost. What is it going to cost to complete them and furnish them! It is quite a change between $750,000 and $3 ,400,000, So, while we are at this $100 million that the Government are borrowing now - we want it to come out now.

The hon. minister is asking for $100 million. Does not the hon. minister think that we deserve some details of that now on these Expo buildings? Is Grand Bank going to be $812,000 or $8 million? Is Gander going to be $1,078,000 or will it be as much as Grand Falls which is $1.5 million? Surely, we deserve some answers on that. While we are _dealing with Provincial Affairs and a vote for Provincial Affairs of $240,000, which is a quarter of last year's total vote, perhaps, the hon. minister will tell us how much is to be spent on Consumer Affairs of that amount of money.

Consumer Affairs should be very important in this Province. But last year the amount voted for the whole Consumer Affairs Division was only $17,500 plus a few dollars for 286

March 29th., 1971 Tape no. 67 Page 4 Hr. Crosbie. expenses. What ~oes the minister plan to do? Does this $240,000 include a substantial amount to really give this Province a Consumer Affairs Division that will be active on ·behalf of the consumer~to this Province, investigating prices, investigating complaints, looking into misleading advertising and all the other things that it should be doing for this Province? What does the minister plan to do with the. ··Consumer Affairs Division this year? That is something we have not heard much about from this Government That was in the Speech from the Throne last year.

Is the minister prep&ring to spend more on the regulation of insurance companies? There is one thing we need more active supervision •. of in this Province, Mr. Chairman, and that is insurance companies incorporated, under the laws of Newfoundland.which are located he~e in Newfoundland. How often are they being checked with respect to their assets and how much. of their assets are kept li~uid to meet their liabilities and the rest of it, This is becoming of greater and greater importance this year in the United Kingdom.

The second largest Automobile and Casualty Insurance Company •in the United Kingdom has gone bankrupt. That is something that we cannot afford to have happen in this Province, any insurance company with that possibility. It is the minister's responsibility in this Province (The General and something or other Accident Insurance Company of England) to supervise insurance companies that do business in this Province. Is he proposing to expend more money on that endeavor? That would be well-worth spending.

Emergency Measures - A $100 million Supply Bill, Mr, Chairman, that comes under the scope of Emergency Measures apparently in this House. Can the minister tell us is any of it for Emergency Measures, Historic Resources Division? How much of it is for the Historic Resources Division? What is the minister's department spending on Placentia to help out there in the developments down there? Is it all being spent by the people down at Placentia? 287

March 29th •• 1971 Tape no. 67 Page 5 Mr. Crosbie. I• the minister going to spend any of it on the Sipal Bill Militaey Pageant that is being cancelled for the past several years because of tight •ney? Money cannot be tight this year if the lld.nister is asking for one-quarter of last year's budget to spend in the next 'IIOllth 01: two. These are some of tbe ques~ions, we would like to hear answered and a little more detail on the Arts and Cult11re Centres and what the minister thinks they are going to cost the Province . altogether and what he thinks it is going to coat to operate them? What .does it 288

May 29th. 1971 Tape 68 PK - 1 MR. CROSBIE: coat the hon. minister now to operate the Arts and Culture Centre in St. John's? I do not like to interrupt the hon. the Premier when he is talking to the minister. I thought I was asking the minister acme questions •. See now perhaps if we can get some of the answers. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, does the hon. minister wish to answer the question proposed by my learned friend from St. John's West first, MR. FRECKER: Mr.

Chairman. and that is the hon. chief of the other side, must realize that the Federal Government ~s very largely responsible for what is being done in Canada .with regards to Consumer Affairs, and that so far the Provincial Government of Newfoundland and Labrador have restricted itself to affairs having to do with credit negotiations. We are working on several amendments to the Insurance Act to bring them in line with the other provinces. We are attenii,t~g to ·bring about .~iform __ ia~urance leRislation. not only in Newfoundland but in all the provinces of Canada.

It seems to me that the hon. chief is asking me to discuss the estimates of the coming year. I just do not feel like getting into that, I will do the best I can for him when I am speaking in reply to the Budget Speech. I would say this would be my answer to all hon. members on the other side. J"he whole thing is so simple and so clear, they have just got to look at the subheads of the various headings of expenditure in our estimates to see what we are doing this year.

I have explained that we are asking for approximately one-quarter,based on this current year's estimates,bearing in mind that we have some extra expenditure coming up in connection with our Culture Centres and Recreation Centre. MR. HICKMAN: Well on restrictin~ my remarks, Mr. Chairman, to the points raised by the hon. the minister with respect to the Arts and Culture Centre, it is my understandin, from the hon. minister that his colleague the Minister of Public Works is progressing so swiftly. so rapidly with the erection of 289

March 29th. 1971 Tape 68 PK - 2 MR. HICKMAN: the Arts and CulturesCentres and the Marine Museum at Graud Bank - MR. CROSBIE: To a point of order, "Mr. Chairman, there is no quormn. MR. HICKMAN: You cannot tell the hon. members to come in after. MR. CHAIRMAN: ·shall the Item carry? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, will the hon. MR. CROSBIE: A very slow cotmt. MR. RICKMAN: Will the hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs indicate to this committee the nature of the fumishings and urgency that is attached to placing these orders at this time, because let me assure this cODD11ittee, Mr.

Chairman, that the building that is presently under construction at Grand Bank, my colleague the hon. member for Fortune and myself visited it on Saturday,will not be in need of fumishings in June of this year or anything close to it. We see a few sticks of steel there and nothing else as of Saturday. I think, this c011B11ittee, Mr. Chairman, is entitled to an·indication from the hon. the minister, because he is the one who brought this to the attention of the committee. He.has told.the committee why he requires this Interim vote. One of the major items is to buy fumiture for the Expo Buildings.

Will he please indicate to this committee the nature of the fumishing he has in mind? And will he assure this committee, and I know he is a very honourable gentleman,that, as this comes under his department and as it is his responsibility,that _ he will insist that public tenders be called for the fumishings to go into these Expo Buildings at Grand Bank, Gander and Grand Falls? Open public tenders. I think the committe is entitled to that assurance,we are talking about money. ibis obviously indicateg, Mr.

Chairman, this is one method to be followed to save money, to insure that we get adequate value for the dollars that will be spent and the dollars that we are asked to approve for Provincial Affairs under head of expenditure(V). Mr. Chairman, again. Emergency Measures were suppose to have a great deal to do with fire protection throu~hout this Province. There was a 290 ...

March 29th. 1971 Tape 68 PK - 3 MR. HI~.AN: scheme administered by Emergency Measures,on a cost sharing programme,which unfortunately died, but still Emergency Measures have responsibility for the adm~nistration and it is my understanding that the hon. the Minister of Provincial Affairs, as the minister responsible-for this vital branch . of his department~ insist that municipalities enter into contracts governing the use of firefighting equipment.

Now we have from practically every municipality in Newfoundland a request that they be allowed to partake of the plans and equipment that Emergency Measures will supply or administer in the way of firefighting equipment.

We have heard many announcements of firefighting equipment being made available this year, and obviously this firefighting equipment has to be administered by the hon. the Minister of Provincial Affairs.under Emergency Measures, if the Fire Commissioner's Office is going to mean anything at all. · May the conmtittee have this assurance afrom the hon. minister, (1) a• to the type of furnishings he has in mind. Has he consulted with men ( I do not know who the gentleman is now, but men of the type of Mr.

Webber) skilled in the setting up of centres of Art and Culture, so that the ·furnishings that will be bought will not be something out of an Eaton's catalogue, but that it is something in keeping a ~aritime Museum or a museum or a recreation centre in Grand Falls or in Corner Brook or in Gander. If we do not do that, it will not be a museum at all. If somebody is simply going to come in and sell chrome furnishings to the minister, if someone is going to come in and work a deal without having to ~o to public tenders, then we should not be asked to vote any money at this time, Mr.

Chairman, to enable Arts and Culture Centres and Marine Museums to be furnished. I would like for the hon. minister, as I know he will indicate to the committee the nature of the furnishings and an assurance that public tenders will be called. 291

March 29th. 1971 Tape 68 PK - 4 KR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, if the minister does not wish to answer his hon. colleague ri,ht away, I will yield to him if he does. He does not appear to wish to answer them right away, so just a few comments on this particular vote. The thing which puzzles me, there seems to be some confusion between the operation and, of course, the building of these pavilions. I understand that the building_will come under t¥ Department of Public Works, the minister of that department of course will answer questions on that. That is the actual construction of the buildings.

But the operation appears to come under the minister's department which we are now discussing. I notice that in last year's estimates there is approximately $40,000 for the expenses in connection with Corner Brook, and quite a lot more, of course, the operation of the Arts and Culture Centre here in St. John's. Well the Premier in his remarks at one stage here expressed faith and aatisfaction that three more centres would be opened this year.

I have to agree with my hon. the colleague, the member for Burin, that the Grand If Bank one which we saw on Saturday,,they are having an official opening in June, it will be in the nature of an open air garden party, it certainly will not be in a closed pavilion. HR. FRECKER: Wait and see! Wait and see! MR. EARLE: Well, if it is, I might say, Mr.

Chairman, that the work will be extremely shabby, and as I have some interest in that part of the country, I hope that the people will be given a good.substantial building that will last and will be a credit to that, which it is suppose to represent or is suppose to convey to the people. But, if this building ia to be finished by June, I do not think it is possible that . such a building can be put up and in conditions suitable for the people of that area and what it is meant to convey.

After all there is a great deal of aentiment in that particular area about the affairs pertaining to seamen and men who have gone down to sea in ships, and I feel that nothing but the best is sufficient for them. If there is to be a monument, it certainly must be a credit to what it is representing. There is no doubt that the 292

March 29th. 1971 Tape 68 PK - 5 Mil. EARLE: people in that area will wish to see sot11ething established there of a lasting type and ·of a quality and furnbhed in such a nature, u my hon. fri-.nd fr0111 Burin said, that will bring great credit to what it is holding in very, very clos• memory for the people of that particular part of Newfoundland. So the point that I was making, when I started to mention these pavilions that, if the Corner Brook one for instance co.sts approximately $40,000 a year, and we are t.o get three 293

March 29th, 1971 Tape 69 JK - l MR. EARLE': three ac>re open this year on top of ones which are presently established, ~be hon. Minister'• vote will have to be very, very substantially increased indeed and his is one request which perhaps for the first few 1110ntha of -rbia coming year appears unreasonable because it does cover three or four months. I am quite sure that when we get h~s total request for the department it must.of necessity,if these buildings are completed and occupied,be very, very much more than the aaount which was asked last year.

Now there will be an opportunity to discuss this in the estimates, ao I am not going to say any more about it. There is one item in his department which we could well dispense with and saving some money so that he could be prepared to meet this additional expense a little later on. He is going to have to find thousands upon thousands of dollars of the peoples money to take care of these very worthwhile Arts and CUlture Centres of which we are all so proud. I might suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that in order to prepare for this eventuality that a monument to the Liberal Government's foolishness 1which appears regularily, might well be dispensed with in the intervening months,name 1y the~Newfoundland Bulletin'which comes under his department, We could save say $30,000. or $40,000. in the next few months.lt would serve a double purpose because not only would we be saving that money but the people could go forward into events which are coming up with clear minds, not coloured or not influenced in any way by a lot of propaganda which c0111es out in that particular bulletin.

Therefore,the Government~for once in its life~would be extremely ethical, it would not be trying to,in a subversive sort of way,influence the thinking of the people and at the same time it would be saving the country a tremendous amount of money and 1thirdly and most important,it would be providing the Minister with a fund ·from which he could run these pavilions afterwards and give something really worthwhile to our people. Therefore I move, Mr.

Chairman, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition,that this particular vote be reduced by the sum of $40,000. and that the saving be applied by the immediate cancellation of the issue of the.Newfoundland Bulletin: 294

Karch 29th, 1971 Tape 69 JM - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is that Item 5, Provincial Affairs, be reduced to $200,000. Those in favour please say "Aye';" contrary "Nay." The motion i  lost. Shall the item carry? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, there is one point that has already been mentioned by the hon. member for St. John's West is the Signal Hill Military Pageant including in the estimates for Provincial Affairs and an idea has come to mind which should be voiced now and we should not wait until the estimates are called.

We all know the value of this Signal Hill Pageant and we all know that as a result of expenditures of Government in other areas that this regretably had to be curtailed, this particular program. It was of great benefit to the Province and particularily the St. John's area~ There were many tourists who saw it in the year that it was in vogue and used here in the Province up on Signal Hil~and it was very disappointing to some people who came back in the previous year and found it was curtailed. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR..

MARSHALL: Right, but it was a disappointment, it was a good program111e and it should have been continued. Moat of the people involved in this pa,eant I understand were university students who took

part in the pageant itself. Now we know that the Federal Government has made available a certain amount of money, a large amount of money,to make provision.-for jobs for university students throughout Canada and I feel that the strongest type of representation should be made by the Government to the Federal Government for the purpose of channeling as much money as possible into Newfoundland with respect to the employment of students itself but particularily you should bear in mind the possibility, the reinstitution of this pageant by utilizing the monies of the Government of Canada.

But in any event if that cannot be realized, if we cannot realize that 7 we should find from our fast dwindling resources, perhaps we can find in the bunker some money somewhere to bring about this particular pageant again to the Province of Newfoundland and particularily to the St. John's area. It is of great value and it is absolutely necessary if we are to 295

March l9th, 19/1 Tape 69 Jft - ..J MR. MARSHALL: MC'll build up any kind of,these types of program are necessary to build up any kind of tourist industry. That ia one point. The other point that we must look at ia to take a very close look at the Emergency Measures Organization, it• use. its effectiveness and just what kind of a job it can actually do in an emergency •. We saw in the ~ity of St. John's ~en the state of emergency was declared last January ~hat this particular organ of the Department of Provincial Affairs was not perhaps aa prepared as it might have been in the circumstances.

I would remind the hon. Minister that you cannot have dress rehearsals for diasters and it is a matter that should be borne in mind and this particular division of the department obviously needs to be strengthened and strengthened in a much more effective manner. The matter of the Newfoundland Bulletin has already been mentioned. It is an utter, complete and absolute disgrace, something that may go over in a place like Soviet Russia but certainly should not be allowed in this Province. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the Item carry? MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Chairman, just one or two short remarks and the principal ones,I think,are these famous Arts and Culture Centres that we have heard about for so many years, I love them but I like to get the truth about them. If we go back in this Rouse a few years ago - MR. CALLAHAN: (Inaudible) • MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, may I be heard in silence by the hon. clown from Port au Port or not? In this Rouse over the years.when these famous pavilions came up from Expo,the Premier made several statements that the cost would be very little, that Lundrigans were going to dismantle them, ship them in and so on.

We could never get a figure of just what the cost would be but everybody figured it would be just a small amount. I am wondering how many millions now ve have gone into,in these famous Expo buildings and the rest of the so called Culture Centres? · I presume the one in Grand Falla now ia well under way, it was rusting iron there for a great many months. Grand Bank, I saw it last fall, they were starting to do something with it. If it is going to be the great affair that the Minister 296

March l~th, 19/~ Tape 69 "'" - ,. MR. MURPHY: I and the Premier visualizes there certainly baa to be some change made in 1t 7aa far as I am concerned. I think that a great amount of monies have been pent and wasted. I would not doubt but a great amount of the steel bad to be replaced for these,because they were just lying around in piles ruating and so ou and so forth. The Minister,when he introduced it,mentioned that they had a Budget of something like $900,000. last year. As I see it,from the estimates here it was $678,600. and the department I know is not one of the big spending departments of Government.

It has already been mentioned about EMO and I think this great promise of fire trucks in all the departments, I think that will come under Municipal Affairs but - AN HON. MEMBER: Debt management. MR. MURPHY: Debt management, salaries. So as I make it up, Mr.

Chairman, here they are looking for approximately one-third of last year's total grant and in conformity with our ideas on the thing I move that the amount of $67,860. be granted to the Department of Provincial Affairs to carry them through the month of April and following the bringing down of the Budget or the estimates, if they are not down in April we will review again what monies are needed to carry the Department through. I a111 much pleasure in moving that the amount of $240,000. be reduced to $67,860. MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is that Item 5 be reduced to $67,860. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, before we vote on the D10tion, the Minister has not answered or given us any total cost for these Arts and Culture Centres, capital cost or what he expects that it will cost to operate them in a year. I have one other question. I do not know whether the Minister's department has anything to do with this, it might be under Arts and Culture or it could be under Historic Resources but has the Minister's department anything to do with these busts of the hon. the Premier that are now being manufactured, busts and sweat shirts and I do not know what else that are being manufactured at Torbay?

Are they to be used with the Historic Resources Division of the Department or is Government going to distribute them in dllY 297

March 29th, 1971 MR.. CROSBIE: Tape 69 JM - 5 way to school children or is there any program like that contemplated? Can the Minister assure us that none of this money will be used for that purpose, the Historic Bust Division or something like that might be in the wind? MR.. CHAIRMAN: Shall the amendment carry? Those in favour, "Aye," contrary ''Nay" MR.. CIOSBIE: Could we have a count, Mr. Chairman? A count please. MR.. CHAIRMAN: Will those in favour of the amendment please rise? Will those opposed to the amendment please rise? MR.. CROSBIE: The historic busters. MR. CHAIRMAN: The amendment is lost.

Shall the Item carry? MR.. RICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister was about to rise in his seat to furnish us the information we requested. Could he? MR. CHAIRMAN: Shal:J, the Item carry? Those in favour please rise. MR.. RICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister MR.. CROSBIE: The hon. Minister wants to answer some questions, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Those o.pposed. MR.. RICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, before - 298

March 29th, 1971 Tape 70 JM - 1 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister is rising. . MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 6, Item 6. MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). HR. CHAIRMAN: Item 6 - Education and Youth. MR. CROSBIE: On a point of order, I ask for a standing vote. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for St. John's West asked for the standing vote after the vote had been declared and the next item had been called. HR. CROSBIE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, how could the item be carried while there ,were people on their feet attempting to speak and the Minister himself on his feet attempting to speak. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Chairman is not responsible for the fact that certain hon. members do not obey the rules of order. AH HON. MEMBER: I move that the Committee rise, _report progress and ask leave to sit again. On motion that the Conmittee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. NOEL: Mr, Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to be referred and have directed me to report progress and ask leave to_ait again. MB..

SPEAKER: Chairman of the Collllllittee of the Whole reports they have conaidered the matters to them referred, directed him to report progress - \ and ask leave to sit again. Be 1110ved and seconded the report of this Committee be adopted. Those in favour, "Aye, 11 Contrary, "Nay'~ 11 Carried. When shall this Committee have leave to sit again. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow and I give notice that I will on tomorrow