VOLL1fE 3 PRELIIHNATI.Y UNEDITED T?,.ANSCP.IPT HOUSE OF ASSDffiLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 A.M. to 1:00 P.M. FRIDAY, 17TH. NOVEMBER, 1978 liD. 110

Tape :\o. 51 il) ~~! - 1 --·~r. Srea:~er in the C:tair. :·CR, SPEAKER: Order, please! STATE~·'BNTS BY ~mliSTERS: SPEAKE~: TI1e hem. '.finister of fisheries. '·!R. r,], CP~~TEF.: Mr. Speaker, it '.vns r,ot ny intention :=o rcsrond publicly to s taterr.ents :1ade recently. in t~:e Eo use of Co::m-.ons by the :.finister of Fisheries in uhich :1e alleged that ue Here ;J.Ot consulting ~lith him Hitlt respect to our fisheries developl'\ent plan. Hm;ever, a speech yesterday by the !'!ember for 3ur~eo - Bay d 'Espoir (l!r.

Simons) has prompted me to table the sequence of events that \o.Te have fol1owed Hith respect to consultinz \·rith my colleap;ue in 0tt!'l1va on the plan. This paper, ?·!r. Speaker, uill indicate '1. 2-=ri~s of events th:::t '•'ere follo1ved by t 11e Province ir, terms of letters to the 'Pri~.e ~·'inister, letter<; to the federal minister, 1:1eetiags •,;ell as the regional study 14ere both tran::;mitted to tl:e federal n1inister ar.d to the minister responsible for D~EE en September 2E:th., Hhich in my vimv \vas al!lple i:irae for :tim and itis collea::;ues to stuC:y .its cor.. tents. The paper, ~Ir.

Spea!<.2.r, vill poi!lt out as 1.1ell discussions that ;vere :1eld between the 'r.inister and our Premier, will point out the fact that an eighteen page letter 1-1as sent by our Prei:Jier, Premier !·!cores, to the Prime Hinis ter, which dealt,along -;.rith other th:lngs, on certain specific items containing our proposed fishery development plan. The paper,,,rhich I will tnble this :norning,~dll indicate a letter that I fonrarded to the minister ir.

Otta11a back last Febru~ry, at ,.rhich time I acquainted him 1dti1 our desire to proceed ui th our fisheries J..:.:vcloprr.~r:.t plan a:td at that timB requested t~1at he second, or a.t least agr2e ':o (laving :1:.:..s Regio::,al Director in the Province, :·lr. Len ·co,;ley, szrve on .1 s ':2er:.nz

:;vve:lber li, 197S Ta;:>c !lo. 5170 ~-h·! - - committee of officials that were :~ppoiated to guide ti1e two studies to Hhich ~o~e have referred. Tae Province, l:!r. Spea!;:er, made the decision to proceed with a number of major studies of the fisheries developcent very early in 1977. As I have indicated, on February 15th., 1977 I l<rote my federal coul1tet7art indic<J,ting that the Pro'lince ~~ished to :::ars:1all all of the resources available to us ir, order to eaable t:!1e opt:!.rou:n return to the economy from extended fisheries jur.isdictio;, to l:.e achieved.

In my letter to the minister on that date I asked him to allow his Regional Director, Hr. Cowley, to serve as a member of a steer'ing committee of senior officials which would direct studies to that end. On April 4th., 1977 I received an acknoHledgement from an assistant to the federal minister advising me that the rnat~er, would be brought to 1·ir. LeBlanc's attention; aowever, no further response was received from the minister with respect to that requesi:.

In April of 1977, Premie'r :·loores met in Ottawa 1nth the federal minister,and certain of his officials, at which time a full discussion on the Province's objectives in fisheries development was discussed, including the Province 1 3 plans to conduct detailed planning studies for fisheries development and to investigate the feasibility of establishing a primary landing and distribution port. Through the Summer of 1977 the tHo major studies upon 1mich the Province's development plan is based began and federal officials at

~c'lcmter 17, 1978 '!'ape Sl71 ::c :tR. I~. CARTER: ------- the local level were kept aware of its progress and up-to-date on what was going ~n in that respect. In January 6f 1~78, Premier Moores wrote Prime Minister Trudeau, discussing among other things the Province's objectives and plans for fisheries develop~ent, and s~bsequently met with the Prime Minister to discuss the items raised in his letter. This discussion included specific items contai~ed in the Province's development proposal on fisheries.

The Prime Minister answered our Premier's letter in April of 1978, at which time he referred to all of the subjects raised by the Premier and made specific reference to elements of the fisheries development plan and indicated that Mr. LeBlanc, .the Minister of Fisheries, would discuss the fisheries development matters contained in the Premier's letter to the Prime Minister.

At the First Minister's Conference in February of 1978,the Premier spoke extensively on matters of concern to the Province regarding fisheries developments and touched on elem·ents of the development plan· which was then under study, conducted both the Kellog studies and the regional study titled Setting A Course. There were informal discussions at the local level with federal officials both in fisheries and in DREE in which the general direction and progress of these studies were made known to them.

The Province received the reports fro~ the Kellog Company in the Summer of 1978 and from the Provincial Planning group, that is the one that put together the Setting A Course plan, on February 7, 1978. On September 27th, Mr. Speaker, twenty days later, copies of the regional planning strategy

November 17, 1978 Tape 5171 EC - 2 MR. W. CARTER: were transmitted to the representative of the federal minister in Newfoundland, the Minister of Fisheries, to the representative of the Department of Regional Economic Expa~~ion, and of course, to other sectors of the fishing industry including the union. On September 28, 1978, copies of the Kellog study were submitted to those same people. In the letter of transmittal for both studies, Mr.

Speaker, my deputy minister indicated that it was anticipated and hoped that a meeting at the ministerial level to discuss the studies and to arrange a formal presentation could be arranged in the middle of November. On November 2, 1978, there was a full-scale briefing by the consultants for ~he Kellog study for members of the trade, the union, and officials of federal fisheries.

Of course, we all know that on November 12th and 13th of this year, the process of consultation with Newfoundland fishermen was undertaken, at which time the Province's proposal was put before them for their input prior to the Province's finalization of its development plan. So, Mr. Speaker, I am tabling this morning a paper in which we have outlined eleven initiatives taken since the idea of formulating the pla,n was first conceived back in the early par~ of 1977. SOME HON. H:EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of my colleague, the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr.F.Rowe)

~bvember 17, 1978 Tape 5171 EC - 3 MR. SIMMONS: who is our spokesman on fisheries and who is unavoidably absent because of personal illness, I shall take a moment to - MR. ROBERTS: What other kind of illness is there? MR. SIMMONS: family, alright. :!R. ROBERTS: who are ill. l{R. SIMMONS: As opposed to illness in his That is the personal view of the people I shall take a moment to respond to what the ~inister has said. I certainly thank him for his statement. I felt that he owed some explanations to the people of the Province for the way he has handled his relations with the federal government.

And his doeument this morning will demonstrate that he does indeed owe an explanation, indeed, something quite in addition to what he has attempted to give this morning. The initiatives, Mr. Speaker, that the minister has talked about fall in two categories; more recently in the category of correspondence or transmitting of documents,and earlier in the category of some dialogue on the subject with various people at two levels of government.

But in the culminating stages of thi~ 1 and we are to understand that the decision has been made to go with the super port- a decision, by the way, that is not greeted with any unanimity on his own side of th'e House- a decision that still leaves

November 17, 1978 Tape 5172 (Morning) PK - 1 Mr. SilTVTlons: some questions up in the air:but that aside, here we are,having committed, at least in announcements, havinQ oromi~~rl - and wP. know that the promise is different than the reality; it is not a reality yet, but I am sure it will become a reality just as the Premier's eight trawlers in Harbour Breton is a reality, as we all know, and as he knows ~ out if this one becomes a reality it will be after there is a substantial input from the federal government.

And despite what the minister has said this morning, indeed because of what he said this morning;he has once again reaffirmed what I said yesterday and what has been said by others in recent days,that there has not been consultation. ·There has been lots of correspondence, lots of transmitting, I say to the minister correspondence is hardly enough; you do not consummate a marriage by mail. MR. ROBERTS: M-a-i-1. MR. SIMMONS: By m-a-i-1. And that has been the failing of the minister on this particular issue, he has not seen fit to involve the payer who is going to pay the piper when the time comes. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the minister has mentioned correspondence, and he asked us to take it for granted that everything. he says in this document is bona fide. Well,I for one have learned not to take everything the minister says as gospel. He was actually on the open line show the other night telling people that I had not turned up at his conference, and I had spoken to him,for the ~ord's sake He finally withdrew it. AN HON. MEMBER: You cannot believe a word he says. MR. SIMMONS: But it demonstrates that sometimes what the minister says is not necessarily the fact. And I would like, Mr.

Speaker, without being too unkind to him, I would like before swallowing ·all this,hook, line and sinker, I would like to see the correspondence. So if there have been eleven initiatives let us see the proof of the pudding, let us have the correspondence on the Table of the House, and let us see if the minister has indeed taken all of the initiatives

November 17, 1978 Tape 5172 (Morning) Mr. Simmons: that he claims to have taken on this particular issue. And even if he has taken all of these, why not a few initiatives in the last month or so during the culminating period when this thing was about to be announced( Qr are we to believe, Mr. Speaker, that the initiative of last April involving the Premier was the one that copper-fastened this? Is he suggesting that he has kept this matter under wraps for nearly a year,or for six or seven months? Have they known all that time that they h~n PK - 2 the agreement with the federal government? If so, perhaps Mr.

LeBlanc has some explaining to do when he says that he met the minister . as recently as a week ago. and the minister never even discussed the. issue with him. Now both men cannot be telling the truth. Mr. Speaker, and eventually we are going to get at the root of this. and .perhaps we have to get the two fe 11 ows in the same room and stop dea 1 i ng with each other by press release. Mr.

Speaker. in conclusion perhaps the most telling thing about the statement this morning. the most telling thing is just the. fact of the minister having made it, because once again he continues his fairly well established tradition of dealing with the federal government by press release, a ministeriai statement in this House, and he hopes today another television interview on the subject. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: . The han. member for Ba i e Verte-Whi te Bay. ·· MR. ·T. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I rise this·morning to present a petition signed by eighty-three residents of the community of Wild Cove in my district. This petition, Sir, is a bit unique in that it has a number of attachments to it. It has a petition of support from the neighbouring .community of Seal Cove signed by 179 residents of that community. It is signed by eighteen business representatives from the town of Baie Verte, and it is also signed by 104 residents of the community of Coachman's Cove, and 109 residents

November 17, 1978 Tape 5172 (Morning} Mr. Rideout: of the community of Fleur de Lys. So in total there is approximately 493, it comes to 500 signatures, Sir, on this petition supporting the residents of Wild Cove. PK - 3 The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is that this government make efforts to undo the

:i'oven;,er 17, l9i8 Tape :1o. 5173 ~- RIDEOt"T: damage that they did this past Su1n::1er in negotiating a DREE agreement with Ottawa for the upgrading and ?aving of certain roads on the Baie Verte Peninsula. N!·! - 1 l!r. Speaker, the Selikoff Report, ~'hich has been referred to in this House on hundreds of occasions, recor..rr.ended that certain roads on the Baie Verte Peninsula be upgraded and paved because of a potential hazard to health. It was the Fleur de Lys - Coachman's Cove Road and the Hild Cove - Seal Cove Road. This government, Mr.

Speaker, 1rent to Ottal·7a and negotiated a DP£E package to upgrade and pave the Coachman's Cove­ Fleur de Lys Road on a SO- SO cost sharing basis, and the Seal Cove Road, with no mention whatsoever of the four or five mile branch out to the community of '.-Tild Cove. r~r.

Speaker, I was flabbergasted lvhen the announcement uas made of just the three roads, because it had· ah1ays heen thought, certainly for my part and in conversations ~dth . the t.,!o or three previous ~-!inisters of T:-ansportation, and fron reading the Selikoff Report itself, ~>•hich was accepted by this government, by the then Mi:lister of Labour and Hanpower, on behalf of the government, that the Sel5.koff Report 1vould be accepted and that its recommendations. I·!Culd be implemented where possible.

I we.s startled to find out, in ~·7riting, from a very senior DREE representative in Ottawa that at no time during the discussions ru1d nesotiation of this DREE package was the \Hld Cove ~oad even t:~entioned. :<ow, Mr. Speaker, obviously the people of Wild Cove-are very upset over that poiat. The road in question oug!J.t to be u!lgraded and paved, number one, for economic reasons. T:1ere are more than 2 million pound of fish .up to this point in ti1e year, come. out of that connnunity this Sunnner. Very p,ood fishermen, Hr.

Speaker, ·and it is only four or five miles of road; then on top of that economic reason you have the health reason, ,.;hici". 1ms the <olltole thing that got this governr\cnt to go to Otta1-1a first, Sir, to negotiate a special DREE

~ove~ber 17, 1978 Tape ::o. Sl73 l·:R. ?.IDEOUT: package. It has not happened an)'l<here else in the Province as far as I ~~•ow where you had a DF£E package negotiated on the basis of health hazard, P.!'Cl. that happened this year and I am very gratef\:1 for it on the Baie Ve1·te Peninsula. But what queers me, Sir, and vlhat l·dll continue to queer me, and queer people of •lild Cove, is what happened to Wild Cove. \Vild Cove is in closer proximity to Advocate !iines t;l<lll is either Fleur de Lys, Coachman's Cove or Seal Cove.

You can practically, Sir, colloquially speaking, spit from the dump of !,dvocate i·lines to l~ild Cove, right straight across the country four or five miles, closer than any of the other four communities. The road oug:1t to have been at least asked for, and my reports in ~~riting_ from DREE tells me that it was not asked for. I am very disappointed over that. The ~eople of l-lild Cove are disappointed and,Hr.

Speul:er, the prayer of the petition asked that this government go back and attempt to renegotiate, attempt to renegotiate ~ith DREE the inclusion of the four or five mile stretch of road from the Seal Cove branch out to the community of lvild Cove. And I think the government ought to do that, Sir, and I support whole-heartedly that petition. And the other point, :-lr.

Speaker, one final point is that if this gover=ent 11anted to - I knm; you can::1ot get them all done the one time, I am not ti1at naive or that stupid, but there 1rere four roads mentioned in the Selikoff Report, tile government asked for three, they eot three on a SO - SO cost sharing basis- whv ln Heavens name did they not try to get the. fourth on the same basis, on the same 50 - 50 cost sharing basis? It "oul<i hc;ve saved money for this Province. It 1"ould have made those people not feel that they have been left out, had not even been asked for in negotiations. So it was a blunder all the way around.

We are grateful . for '"hat v7e have gotten, l·lr. Speaker, vary grateful, but certainly ti:e government ought not to have let dmm those people in \-!ild Cove t:1e ;yay they did.

:·:ovew.ber 17, 1978 Tape ;~o. 5173 :ri·! - 3 l-m. RIDEOUT: ~lr. Speaker, I sup;:oort the prayer of the retition 0 I table it and ask that it be referred to •1arious departments t" .,hich it relates, •·rhich I thin;~ ''ould be T a.-,d C and certainly ·Intergovernmental Affairs. :-!R. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. <<r. Speaker, I rise to support this r.-·aci:ion. I c:=tr.:nct thi:tk of .~ more urg~:1t or a r::ore "L~?Ot'tant ?etition being presented to this House during this :nese:·,t session, sup?Ort:ed by eighty-three residents ,I believe,of Vild Co'!e.

I.t is supported )>v tl.e neighbouring,larger comtlunity of Seal Cove, by 179 or 180 names, the Coac~~an's Cove and. Fleur de Lvs pe9ple·

::ovember 17th, 1978 Tape ~lo. 5174 ·w- 1 ~·f!-'.. tV'. ~T. ROHE: 1~ho are in exactly the same precarious and hazardous rosition reearding t~eir health hecause of the dirt roads, the gravel roads and the asbestosis that may result from those roads. They them- selves have supported the petition of l-lild Cove ~•hoJ eheartedly. The :>eople of Baie Verte, Sir, the largest community in the area, the to~m of naie Verte supports it as tvell. I do not knm• <Jhy \~ild Cove, Hr.

Speaker, would ';ave been left out of. any kind of an agreement or negotiations between the (',overnment of :-le~•foundland and the C~vernment of Ottawa to pave these. roads because of the perceived extreme health hazard involved. I cannot imagine any reason for it, :l·1as the hon. member .the minister at the. time? :~e does not respond, :~r.

Speal:er, I ~mulr .. like to l:nm' fror.:· the reinister involved if t~ere is .in f?.ct any rea::;on for leavin~ Hild Cove out of that pacl·.age vJith Ottaua, Hhet1v~r it vas done out of inadvertence, lvhether people r.id not thini:.;-- of: r.;ild Cove because it is a small comunity,or H!tet!1er there is in fact some rational· ,reasonable cause for the community being left out~ The road is not bein~ paved, DfEE is not involved in the paving of this road anrl the government is not involved in the paving of this road for purely economic reasons.

If it were purely economic reasons there might be some rat:i.orale. perhaps the ~inister could stand in this House and say, "l•iell, tJild Cove is one of the mos~ industrious places -in ~·:e~•foundland. they are all.hard working!'I doubt if there is a person on unemployment or welfare in liild Cove. Not one, :-:r.

Speak,er, I knoc• t!1e pecple ~7ell they are industrious, hard ~1orldng, fishing or •.vor.king in the mines, some logging as '•ell, perhaps ,still. l:aybe the government '\ 1 coulc1. have a reason for saying,w: 1, there is a very smRll population there and economically the road does not Harrant being paved at this particular t-iMe." There may he some colour of rationale there althoug!1 I doul: t it very much -Jut if we are talkinr, about a health hazard, ther. the 'ind-iv-id'.lal in l..'ild Cove is eq•Jally iruportF.nt. to the

Tape No. 5174 1"1,' - 2 individual in Seal Cove, or l.oachman's Cove, or Fleur de Lys if we are talking about health hazards, if that is the rationale fo·r paving these roads and~ therefore, Sir, there can l:le no re·ason ~~hatsoever for leaving out the community of ~Tild Cove. I think ,the col!\11\unity deserves tc have the road paved along 1dth Seal Cove an~ Coachman' o Cove, ?~eurs de L:,•s on grounds of econol".ic reasons alone ,but certainly tl\e healt!1 reasons ma!~e the thing conclusive. 7here· is !'.O argument~ nobody·can raise an argument, Sir, against the need to have this road paved.

I therefore, Sir, support the petition lvholeheartedly.I do hope the minister who Has involved - it just slips my mind at the moment - AN EON. l7.l·!BE?.: They change so fast. - because the ~inisters do have a tendency to change like musical c1-tairs on c. t>Vt'l or three month basis .But. I do hope the minister involved can stand up ,if there is a reason let him state it ,if there is no reason let him admit it and say that the eovernment is n~~ going to institute immediate negotiations with DREE to have this mist.=.l:e remerl.ied, !•!r.

S;:>eaker, and have the people of Hild Cove and their road ir.cluderl in this package so that they too can !1ave the benefit of pavement to reduce the health hazards involved frot:t asbestosis as pointed out by the Selikciff report. Thank you, ~lr. Speaker. OR.~· QUES'iiOl!S ~·T.. H.:~ • ~.OPE : :·lr. Speaker, I direct one or two questions to the hon. the Premier co~cerning the Come by Chance refinery and the statement yesterday that Peat ~!arwick and l-litc!'!ell had recommended or approved in principle a proposal by First Arabian.

First of all, Sir, would the !'remier indicate to the Eo.use ~o~hetller in fact the proposals. ~1hic!1 have heen published over the air anrl in the ne•,.;spapers nm~. the First Arabian proposal 'vhich,.for examrle, appee;.s i.n the ~aily ;~e~~s anrl t!'!e Sha11eer. proposal •·;hich also appears

~lovember 17th, l'J78 ':ape \·lo. 5 174 !)~·1 - 3 :1r. .. ~l.ll. :\01-!E: in the Daily :-!e1JS , IJhether in fact these are correct as published, are they correct proposals made by these two concerns? :!F.. SPEAKER: The hon. Pre~ier. PRE1!IER l-~OORES : To cy knowledge, :-\r. Speaker, those two proposals that appeared in the paper wer~ Erom a document issuer. hy I think it tJas '·!r. Shaheen's ;>eopl.e.! "<no"' that ::.oth proposals IJere looked at by the Peat Hanricl·., bJJ the receiver and they. made the decision based on t!lat.Certainly from tJhat appeared in the paper there is a fairly large difference. but the investigation that they did,and they obviously ~ade that decision.

~:over.t:>er 17,1978 Tape No. 5175 AH-1 PREYIER ~·ooFES: As I said yesterday,as far as this government is concerned 1~e will be taking a position and the only position He can take is that ~~e will be supporting in the end analysis that proposal Hhich is best for the Province. ~!Y-. SPEAKER: A supplementary. }~. l~. ROl.JE : l!r. Speaker, by way of a f!Upplementary, has the Premier found out from Peat Nandck yet 1~hy they in fact have accepted the FirAt Arabian's proposal over the Shaheen offer? The hen. Premier. PRD~IER !'!OOP.ES: The only information I have, Hr.

Speal-:er,is that they thought it had r>.ore vaHdity and they thought it was the best proposal under the circumstances. They have not explained ~orhy they did not think ~:r. ShaheeTI' ;;:·~as better. :·"hat they have done is olwiously reviet~ed it from their point of viet·' and made that decision. ~·:r.. ;; . F.01\iE: ------- Nr. Speaker, a supplementary on that. l' F. SPEAKER: A supplementary. l~. H. Rt'liJF.: Can the Prem1.er indicate tc the House, Sir, who are the principals of First /,rabian Corporation? l·~e understand from the net·•S that it is a Luxeo.Jburg company,Hhich is .. a tax shelter,ohviously.

Can you tell us who the princaples of the First Arabian are? !~. SPEAKER: TI1e hon. Premier. P!'E}'IEP. HOORES: The Chairman is a gentle1IU1n by the name of ~~r. Roger Tamraz. The Board of Directors I will gladly get and table in the House. I have no problem doing that. }:ot only cl.o I. no_t knoH all of them, but I cannot pronounce the other half. }'R. SPEAKER: A supplementary. l·!P-_. H. P.Ol\E; Are they Arabian nationals? Are they from Saudi Arabia or some Arab country? Does the Prewier knoN that? l'F. SPEAKER; TI1e hon. Premier.

~1overnber 17,1 o7g Tape No. 5175 All-2 '?'P.F.~'Il'R YOC'FF.S: I will try to get their residences ~swell as their names, Sir. A further supplementary, Sir, if the hon. member tvould not mind for ;: moment. On the face of it, l'r. Speaker, i.t ~10uld appear that the Shaheen offer is t:~ore more favourable for this Province than the Arabian offer. ~:ow I co not knm< if it is or not. If the thing is ~acked up by guar2ntees and is a firm offer and so on and has the guarantees and b·ank credit behind it and everything, it would appear to be more favourable than the First Arabian offer.

I could not care less,personally,as a member of the House, Sir, tvho gets it, tvhat individuals are involved as long as the best interests of the Province are served.

Can the Premier undertake, Sir, to find out, to ge.t some information as to the bona fides of these ttvo proposals and come back into the House before this session is completed, in perhaps the next two or three days - I do r.ot knotv tvhen the House is going to be adjourned or prorogued by the government- but could the Premier come back into the House •vi.th the best judgement that he can bring to ·bear on it, and the experts •vho offer advice to the government, to tell us Hhether these offers are in fact genuine and if the Shaheen offer is as good as it seems compared to the First Arabian that the government •,rill in fact try to do something to get the offer which is most favourable to this Province as against purely the people t·rho Peat i·:arwick and ~!itchell represent, that the governll'.er.t will try to get the best offer accepted by all the parties concerned t·rhich is in the best interest of the Province rather than just,say,Peat Harwicl< and ~-'itchell and who they may represent? l'R.

SP~-";_ PPEHIER HOOP-ES: rhe hon. Premier. Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday t••hoever. is the eventual operator of the refinery this government will only support that one that has the best offer. !-Ie will be ~a-operative with tvhat He think is in the best interests of the Province. He tdll not be co-operative Hith Hhat we think ·are in the tvorst interests

"lovember 17,1978 Tape L':o. 5175 AH-3 P~fl~IEP. ~'OORES : of the Province,naturally. Until nm~, and still to my kno•·1ledge ,we ~·,ere asked by both Hr. Shaheen and by the :receiver that the ,two offers of which we had copies to keep t;hem confidential and not to .be released. We will certainly endeavour to contact both gentleman and ask them if we can make those documents public now becaYse that is the undertaking in which they were given to us. };p. F. F-OliE: One final supplementary, •·r. Speaker, tc make sure He are clear.

Hill the Premier also undertake not only to merely table this -r mean,this is mean~ngless; it is only 3 piece of paper - P:RF.HU:R llOORES: '1R. '..l. ROWE: Oh no,it is more than that.

Right, I mean,whatever backs it up .But could he also undertake to give some assuranc~s to the House as to the bona fidies of the offers , tvhether they are hacked by bank cred:l.ts or letters of credit or guarantees by banks and so on, tvhether they are trustt·mrthy offers in both cases, whether they are bona fidie, whether they are substantial,in other ,.,ords,so that the people of this Province and members of this House can make a judgement based on a little more than figures on paper but based on expert advice given to the government and the bank credits and so on? HP.. SPEA.XER : The bon. Premier.

PFEMIER }!QORES: Mr. Speaker, th~t is a little more difficult than it: lvould appear. C'bvicusly we 1vould be glad to if He wel!e allowed to table the information,give what assurances He have been given and '"hat ,.,e know as definitive positions. That has already been studied by Peat ~farwick and they obviously

November 17, 1978, Tape 5176, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: have made a decision on their

interpretation of the two offers. Certainly, having given the two offers in the House, we would also be prepared to give whatever knowledge we know definitively and what knowledge we do not know definitively about those. MR. W.N.ROWE: arises out of that answer. MR. SPEAKER: MR. W.N.ROWE: A supplementary, Sir,. that A supplementary. Is it correct that Peat, Marwick, as I understand it, Peat,Marwick, in fact, represents the interests only of Kleinwort Benson, the first mortgagees? Who else do they represent?

In other words, who is interested in the Peat Marwick- it would be ECGD., obviously, and Kleinwort Benson - is there anyone else whose interests are represented by Peat,Marwick? PREMIER MOORES: Yes, in the first mortgage, Mr. Speaker, there is also the First National Bank of Chicago, Universal Oil Products of Chi:ca~o, and Ataka, the Japanese; all have a slice of that first mortgage and they all agreed to go along with that letter of intent. MR. SIMMONS: the first mortgagees. PREMIER MOORES: yes. MR. W.N.ROWE: MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR·.

CALLAN: Peat, MarWick represents only Only the the first mortgagees, Right. A supplementary. The hon. the member for Bellevue. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier does government·have a copy of a letter from a bank in France or elsewhere verifying the fact that John Shaheen has the financing to reactivate the refinery, financing in the amount of approximately $249 million? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: As I just said, Mr. Speaker, when I have had the permission from both groups I will gladly

November 17, 1978, Tape 5176, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER MOORES : we have in the House. MR. SPEAKER: Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: table the documentation that The hon. the member for Burgee - Mr. Speaker, I wonder, on the same subject, would the Premier indicate to the House whether he or representatives of the government have had any discussion with First Arabian concerning the refinery? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : There were officials of the government had discussions with First Arabian quite some time ago. I have not, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

SIMMONS: Could the Premier indica.te whether Mr. Shaheen has been in touch with the Premier since the Peat,Marwick announcement yesterday afternoon? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Shaheen, Mr. Speaker, I do not know what his phone bill is, but I would suggest that it is very substantial even if he is just charged for the calls he places to me. I am sure that there are many others he calls as frequently. He is a man of tremendous energy and is not lost for a word, even on the telephone, Sir. He is in continuous touch and has been for - MR. SIMMONS: PREMIER MOORES: MR.

SIMMONS: PREMIER MOORES: MR. SIMMONS: Could the Premier indicate - PREMIER MOORES: MR. SIM..V.ONS : Yesterday afternoon?· - seven years. Since yesterday afternoon though? Oh yes, sure~ I see. All right. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Every ten minutes. Could the Premier indicate whether Peat, Marwick was in any consultation with the government before making their decision. to give the nod to

November 17, 1978, Tape 5176, Page 3 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: First Arabian? MR •. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : The answer is yes. Quite sometime ago, Mr. Speaker, they met with the government, I reviewed the situation ·aS it was then, I gave it - unless there was an offer that was improved over that particular letter of intent, they intended to go ahead with it. To my knowledge there was no recent communication with them. Certainly the announcement yesterday was not some­ thing that we had been pre-advised about..

Now, I am not saying they did not try to contact us, maybe they did, but we had no prior consultation in that sense. MR. SIMMONS: Sir, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. Thehon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: One other question for the Premier on the same subject. The Premier has indicated today and yesterday that his government obviously would be favourable ·to the First Arabian involvement only if it is in the best interest of the Province.

Now that obviously implies that there may well be some courses of action the Premier would consider if.his government considers the First Arabian involvement not to be in the best interest of the Province and I wonder would he be prepared to indicate to the House now what kinds of options he sees for the government should it become necessary to stave off the First Arabian· involvement in the refinery? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, I have no reason to say that we will not support First Arabian as such because there are a great many details that have to be worked out from that letter of intent, and it is the method and the manner and what results from those particular details that we as a government will have to make up our minds on,plus anything else that may be offering at the time.

November 17, 1978, Tape 5176 Page 4 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: As the member knows, when the Ultramar proposal was put in for just oil storage at Come by Chance, we made it very clear to them and to the receiver that we could not .support it as a government because the risk was too great for what we were getting in return. Equally, I do not think any­ one would want to operate the refinery without the co-operation of the government. I think it would be a very foolish thing for them to do. We do not have any legal position.

November 17, 1978 Tape 5177 (Morning) PK - 1 Premier Moores: at this particular time.As to what is done, we do have the authority of government, the refinery happens to be in this Province. I hope that whoever eventually gets the refinery, if it is First Arabian or whoever, that they will have the full co-operation of this government. And I think it is far too early to prejudge what that situation will be until we are much further down the road. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: One final supplementary on the subject, The han. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir.

But since yesterday afternoon when the Premier was answering the initial questions on this subject, I sensed,. righly or wrongly,a certain hostility on the part of the Premier towards the First Arabian or at the very least a certain apprehension about the First Arabian. His initial reaction to the House was that he dtd not seem to be very col!lfortable with the prospects of Fi!"~t. Arabian getting involved with· the refinery.

And I wonder would the Premier indicate whether that is a fair summation of his attitude on the subject or would he indicate - perhaps we can put it another way - would he indicate whether he does indeed have some apprehensions about the possibility of First Arabian getting involved in the refinery? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER ~100RES: I will be very honest, Mr. Speaker, there is absolutely no apprehension as far as Fir.~t .Arabian is concerned. If ;I gave that impression I certainly would want to correct it.

Regarding the Come By Chance refinery and its reoperation, Nhen one considers that Eastern Canadian refineries are operating at some 60 per cent capacity, when one looks at the future of refining in Eastern Canada,I ·am not as optimistic about that particular industry as I would like to be. I would like to be very optimistic, I am afraid I cannot go jumping up and down at the prospects of what is going to be held out for Come By Chance. I hope that that apprehension

November 17, 1978 Tape 5177 (Morning) PK - 2 Premier Moores: is wrong. I certainly do not have the. confidence in it that I have in other aspects of resource development in this Province. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, there seems to be a question mark in my mind, remember last Spring when Ultramar made their proposal that the Provincial Government was very much involved in, you know, making the decision of whether or not they accepted it.

But appears to me here that the Provincial Government has been more or 1 ess 1 eft out·,. and that the receivers have gone ahead and made a decision regarding Eirst ~rabian's plans without too much consultation with the Provincial Government • That seems to raise a question in my mind: has the Provincial Government been consulted? And especially have they been consulted since Shaheen put in his bid about a week ago? The First Arabians have had theirs in for, well, forty days and forty nights, I believe, but Shaheen put his in about a week ago.

Has the Newfoundland Government-been consulted since Shaheen put his in? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Now I do not want to1 start referring any of their proposals. to tne forty days and forty nights, or Alabama, Mr. Speaker, thou3h it may be apropos in more wa.vs than one .• ~ut the final proposal that was put in on the Ultramar position ~1as one that was a definitive situation. The :_irst Arabian one is a letter of intent that has to be met, and a great many things are still ·very unclear in this • In the Ultraniar position we were .in .a position to know what the definitive position was.

In thi.s particular one we still do not have the definitive position. MR. W. N. ROWE: MR; SPEAKER: MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. sp·eaker, a supplementary. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. We 11 I would like to have the Premier's opinion on this, as the· Leader of the Province, the Leader of the Government in the Province: Does he not consider· Peat, Marwick's treatment

November 17, 1978 Tape 5177 (Morning) PK - 3 Mr. W. N. Rowe: of.the government yesterday contemptible and insulting to the Government of this Province to be informed five minutes before they make an announcement, which may in fact have cast the die for this Province, Mr. Speaker? Does ·he not think it was an insult and shabby treatment of the government for them to have done that,to start with? And does he think that having· done that now they are to be entirely trusted when it·comes to the best interest of the Province? Now I am not trying to slander any firm or institution.

What I am saying is that can the government trust Peat, Marwick and Mitchell .to do 1;he right thing as far as the people of this Province are concerned, and should they start thinking in terms of operating outside. of Peat, Marwick altogether and digging into this thing a little further than they have done in the past? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I certainly would not have that opinion, Mr. Speaker, until we see what the final result is. And from previous dealings with Peat, Marwick, Mitchell we have had every satisfaction with that particular firm. anrl we have had good results from them.

And certainly they have the legal obligation and they have their right· to do what they did yesterday. There could have been more consultation but they were perfectly within their jurisaiction to do what they did. And I certainly am not going to give an opinion maligning or slandering or giving derogatory opinions on firms unless I think they are deserved. In this particular case that particular firm I do not think deserves that particular attack. MR. 'CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. \L N; ROWE:. Five minutes notice. MR. SPEAKER: I will recognize the· hon. gentleman for Baie Verte-White Bay.

Th<i't will not preclude the hon. member for Bellevue from being recognized later. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question .is for the Minister of Labour and

November 17, 1978 Tape 5177 (Morning) Pk - 4 Mr. Rideout: Manpower. Mr. Speaker, on September 28, 1976 the Lieutenant-Governor in Council commissioned a Committee of Review into the Workmen's Compensation Board legislation. That was two years ago. That report was made to the government in June 1977, which is almost a year and a half ago, making some

November 17, 1978 Tape 5178 EC - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: very serious recommendations about the improvement of Workmen's Compensation Board legislation. Could the minister ~ell the House whether or not that legislation ha~ yet been prepared and when we can expect to see it brought before the House so it can be implemented? MR. SPEAKER: Labour and Manpower. MR. HOUSE: The hon. the Minister of There is an amendment now on the Order Paper for the Workmen's Compensation Board and the other parts of it that are not in this particular amendment are being worked on now. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. t!R. RIDEOUT: I think the amendment that· is on the Order Paper now has nothing to do whatsoever with the recommendations made by this Review Committee. It is purely a financial.thing, upgrading the finances. There are other important things in the recommendations. Could the minister tell the House whether or not there has been any consultation yet in the drafting of the legislation between his department and the people on the Review Committee, especially in light o~ the new Occupational Health and Safety bill that was passed in this House last Spring? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR.

HOUSE: ·Mr. Speaker, I will take that as notice. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker. l1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Lewisport e. i!R. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health, and it .evolves around the situation concerning the proposed expansion at the Central Newfoundland Hospital in Grand Falls and the

November 17, 1978 Tape 5178 EC - 2 MR. WHITE: construction of new hospitals around the Province. The Premier said that he was going to make a statement on the 29th of September, which he did not do and said it was going to be delayed. Would the Minister of Health tell us exactly what the situation ,is and when we can expect that overall statement on hospital expansion? MR. SPEAKER: MR. H. COLLINS: The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the hon. member has heard the most recent statement I made or if he heard it properly.

What I did say a few days ago was that· until we can establish exactly what the impact of the federal restraints programme might be on this Province to enable us to make some determinations on our own budgeting, then we are not in a position to be able to announce any progyammes. MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER: member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minister could tell us whether or not this federal matter has been raised just recently as an excuse or has he been dealing with Ottawa to try to get this matter resolved, if in fact it is a matter to be resolved with Ottawa, or is it just a stalling tactic to keep the people in Grand Falls on the· hook for another while? MR. SPEAKER: MR. H. COLLINS: The hon. the Minister of Health. Well, Mr. Sp~aker, if the hon. member might think back, he would realize that the Prime Minister in August made a statement that he was going to ask his ministers to come up with a savings of $2.5 billion.

Nobody knows where exactly those funds are going to be found, and until we have determined that, it leaves us in a little bit of a bind as to what we can do.

November 17. 1978 MR. SPEAKER: MR. C.ALLAN: Tape 5178 EC- 3 The hon. the member for Bellevue. Mr. Speaker, I want to get back to the Come By Chance oil refinery and want to ask the Premier - I think everybody is aware, of course, that John Shaheen is in th~ Province now. I spent an hour listening to him this morning on a Newfoundland programme. And as far as John Shaheen is concerned, of c~urse, there is nothing secret about his proposal now. There may have been a couple of days ago.

But according to the newspaper and according to the Open Line programme and John Shaheen himself, he, of course, in his proposal, talks about reopening the refinery within seven months. The First Arabian proposal talks about as much as three and one-half years or more. For this Province, of course, what we are concerned about obviously is jobs. I am sure that the provincial government should be concerned about it as well. So.

I want to ask the Premier, for that fact alone, for the fact that the refinery would be reopened, say,within seven months rather than three and one-half years, can it be assumed that the provincial government will dig to the bottom of this as soon as possible and come out definitively in su·pport of the better proposal obviously for jobs if for no other reason? :1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Fairly obviously, Mr. Speaker, we will have to wait until the analysis is done by the receiver,who has a legal obligaiion.

We could not,even if we wanted to, override the legally appointed receiver by the courts. We have to wait and see what transpires and even though, as the hon.

Tape ~o. 5179 !;;·! - 1 ?R8·ITER :·!OO:U:S: menber says, certain aspects are being made public, the fact th:lt :lr. Shaheen or an}·body from ti1e other organization, t~e iirst Arabian,~tant to r.ta!;c things public, as long as they have given us docu:nentation in confidence Pe Hill ask them to be released from that cor.fidence before ue ::~ake them public because to do o then;ise on our o~r.t judgement 1c(;uld b:a :;rong '--it!lout consultin!j ~rith those ::>eople ~·7ho confided in :.ts. ~-f'?.. CALLAL" : '!R. SPEAKER: l!R. CALLAl~: A final sup:->lementary, ~!r. Speaker. The hon. nember for Bellevue. :-lr.

Speaker, tl1c PreMier nearly got around to ru:m,ering a question that I had ir. t:1e bac~ of ::~y mind, ~ said the Province ~as no legal· right to stop,say,t~e First Arabian Corporation from taking over t'!le refinery. lvhat role does ti1e Gover=ent of this Province :1avc? Let us assuoe,for e::a:nplc, d-.at everybody, e:tcept the provincial government, is in favour 1Jf tlle ?irst Arabian Corporation taking over be refinery, l~nat role does the provincial government have? Can the provincial goverrunent step the First Arabian Corporation from taking over? :-!R. SPEAKER: .The hon. Premier.

PRE:'!IER :'!CORES: I have got something that is obvious even to the hon. gentleman, Hr. Speaker, but that certain something it is a bridge we will only have to cross '"hen "e come to it~ and hopefully ,.;e will not co:ne to tl1at position. Hopefully "e ,.,iJ.l all agree on 'lhat is best for the Province. HR. SHJMONS: :1r. Speaker, a supplementary. :m.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. ~·!R. Sl}iHONS: }!r. Speaker, again on the same subject and to the Premier. I wonder could he indicate to the House l<ilat kind of tine frames ~;e are talking now. The decision ~;as announced yestl.!rday.

I understand it has to be approved by the British people and so on, but ~·That are "'e talking before \Ve ••ill know that First Arabian is in the

~.;overr.ber 17, 137~ Tape i\o. 5179 :n - 2 :!R. :n:~~ors: driver's seat or is not? Are ~-1e lookir.g at days, ~~eeks or months? :-G.. SPE.IJ<ER: The ho~. Premier. Pr.E:-:IER :·:OORES: I am not sure if this information is public or not, ~r. Speaker, but 'I do not see any reason why it ~nould not be. I taink the time frame is February 15th. to April 15th. T~1en it ~:ould h2.,.~c to be :-cferred to· i.:he Suprcr:le C::-Jurt~of course,and referred to FIRA.

How long that particular e;:ercise '"ould take I do not kno';1 1 but the time frame in ma!:iag a j ·1dgement dacision, a finalized decision is February 15th.·· to April 15ti!. HR. Sl:WNS: A supplementary. :·IR. SPEAKER: ~!R. SWHONS: The hon. member for :3urgeo - Bay d 1 Espoir·. Mr.

Speaker, the Premier made a reference to the court's involvement and one of the concerns I had yes~erday in hearing the announcernent is that it seems to me, and I was going to ask the Premier to react to my observ~tion on this, it see~s to me that the sequence of events now, or the event of yesterday, it seems to put the Hhole thing on ice for an almost indefinite period, on ice in the sense of reactivating the refinery. I:: seems r,ow there is going to be a fairly lengthy,legal entanglement involving l·~r. Shaheen 1 s group, and perhaps others, but certainly :rr. Sho.heen 1 s group..

And it seems to me that the net effeC'.t is going to be t~1at the possibility for :-c.acting the refinery is now pushed many months dotvn the road as a result of yesterday's announcement ;lith tile consequent controversy tha·t t~1e announcement has engenden:d publicly. :!R. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PP.E!ITE:R ~!OORES: That was more of a statement,I think. than a ~uestion, !·!r. Speaker. ~IR. snr~oNs: ~lo, I asked for a reaction fr,.,n you.

PREmER l!OORES: The situation basically ;-rould be, one would "u;:Jposz,and there are r>eople in thi,j House <7ho are ::~uch better equipped to answer this than I am from t!le legal fraterni!:y of h01·1 long that sort of thing takes, I l<oul..! thiak that "h"'n t~1ey i:ave nade

Tape No. 5179 P!T:IER '!OORES: their deCision ancl then negctiaticns to complete it, regarding T!irst Arabian, that if they are in favour of that particular pnposal they Hould then file that before the court for acceptance and I 'rould assume, and I can be corrected on this, I 1.rould assume that anyl,ody ~rould have the right to make representation at t"at time,t.rhether it be, the unsecured creditors or someone else tdth anothe= cffer, or whatever the case mav be, for tne j uc!icial decision. I :nay be t·~rong but that if" '!S I l·,ould think. '.1R. t1, ROWE : ;.m. SPEAKER: :·fR. W. rtOHE: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementa.y, TI1e hon.

Leader of the Opposition. l-lould the Premier inform us whether i1e has recently, or whether all along he has had, or whetheor ne is going to set up nov, a committee representing the interests of :he government anc therefore the people, a committee of legal advisors, financial advisors, .economic advisors, people who knot~ :nore about these things than we as politicians do, you ~ow,to give the government and the people of the Province the best possible advice as to tile bona fides of these two offers, the representation which the government should make strenuo.usly before the Supreme Court?

I would assume, Sir, obviously no judge is going to rule ir. favour of a government merely because it is a gover1unent, but I would say, Sir, that any judge making a decision in the Supreme Court of this Province, would give very great.consideration to a representation made by the government representing the people of this Province, apart altogether from the second mortgage considerations.

November 17, 1978 Tape 5180 EC - 1 ~1R. W. N. ROWE: So what I am asking is, do we have control of this? I do not get the impression Sir, that the government. is in control of this situat·ion. They are letting it slip out of their hands and fritter away. Do we have a team of experts who can take control of this thing and give good~solid. hard advice to the government .on a day-to-day basis as to the tactics and strategies we should be employing on behalf of the people of the Province? MR. SPEAKER:· PREMIER MOORES: The hon. the Premier. The answer is we have had for quite some time and we still have, Mr. Speaker.

The Deputy Minister of Finance, the Deputy Minister of Industrial Development, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Justice, together with outside legal and financial opinions. have been working on this for a year. They will continue to work on it and it will continue to be monitored, and there will be nothing slip through the courts, there will be nothing slip anywhere that is not in the· best interests of this Province, Sir. HR. SPEAKER: Windsor - Buchans. HR. FLIGHT: The hon. the member for Hr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the Minister of Tourism.

I wonder if he would give the ~ouse an update on his success to date in retrieving the film from Mr. George McLean that he promised the House and the people that he would have within two weeks of last June. Would he let us know if he is any closer to retrieving that film or just what is the status of the film that Mr. George MeLean is holding, paid for by the Department of Tourism, and that he seems not tO be able to get back? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker.

November 17, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Tape 5180 EC - 2 The hon. the member for Obviously the question should have been directed to the seat mate of the Minister of Tourism. They are on speaking terms now. MR. SIMMONS: soul mate. HR. RIDEOUT: The seat mate but not the Mr. Speaker, I want to ask a question of the Minister of Health.

In view of this ambulance study that was released publicly yesterday, could the minister tell the House whether or not his department has any plans to implement the recommendations that the drivers of ambulances, especially in the rural areas of the Province, be given some degree of training? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, first of all I might say we are very proud of the fact that we have been successful over the past f•w years in bring ambulance service to almost every co~munity in this Province - SOME HON. MEMBERS: liR. H. COLLINS: accomplished before. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. H. COLLINS: Hear, hear! - something which was never Hear, hear! We are also aware that there could very well be some little flaws in the operation of the ambulance service, and ways and means will be found to train all of the drivers which we can train as we can get the funds and so on through the co~operation of the hospitals, the St. John Ambulance and any other groups. We are very proud of-the system, Mr. Speaker. MR. RIDEOUT: MR. SPEAKER: questioner. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the original

~ovember 17,· 1978 Tape 5180 EC - 3 :-IR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I just want to say to the minister that a number of those ambul~nce~ have been provided and operated by volunteer associations throughout this Provi~ce; I point to the Kinsmen Club of Baie Verte as one example. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister this question. Would the minis·ter like to tell the House why his deputy minister says that the only problem with the implementation of the.recommendation of that.particular committee is that the Department of Health "is not a political priority those days"? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. H.

COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I think it should be said here that this report .was done by a group of students from the university whom we know had the best of intentions. They had an interview with the Deputy Minister of Health in the person of Dr. Klippert, and from what I can find out - and I think Dr.

Klippert defended himself pretty well when he was questioned by the press - the whole situation has probably been taken out of context. nut as I said before, and bon. members opposite should realize, the road ambulance service,and the air ambulance service for that matter,which we have in this Province, we are very proud of it. And I believe that bon. members opposite if they were honest with themselves would also say that they are proud of it, and they ~hould be trying to find ways and means of helping us and assisting us in bringing about a better programme than we have now if that is possible.

ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, the bon .. the Minister of Education to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Memorial University 'Act, •: carried. (Bill No. 91). On motion, Bill No. 9l,read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

:lovember 17, 1978 Tape 5180 EC - 4 11R. HICK~!AN: Hotion 9. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill,• "An Act To Amend The Public Utilities Act," carried. (Bill No. 93). On motion, Bill No. 93, read a first time, ordered read a second time· on tomorrow.

::over.:ber li, 1973 Uotion 1:). :·lotion, the hon. the l·:inister of :·!ines ar.C. Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Brinco _Limited (Labrador Agreements) Act, 1S7'•·" (Ilill No. 94). On motion, Ilill No. 94 read a first time, ordered read ·a second time on tomorrotv. On t:o tion that t:!c: E::>usC! resolv~ its.;lf into Co=i ttee ()f the Hhole on Sup-;>ly, :·!r. Speaker left t:1e Chair. :·!R • CRAIRW,.~: Order, please: XR. HIOOlfu~: Bill 56. NR. CJAI~:.A..~: The han. Minister of Justice. HR. HI~"IAN: Hr. Chairman, if I could have one :!linute.

There.are a couple of questions that I did aot have an O:>portunity t:o anst-~er last night, or yesterday afternoon oefo.re tve adjourned. One, I think an :ton. member asked •~hat· the interest in sinking fund payments tvere in 1971 for the Province. The interest tvas $29 million, the sinking fund $Hl million. At that time, as I pointed out, the sinking fund, most of ou:: loans !l.i: that time did not require sinking funds. The other question, I Lelieve, and both of them came from the han. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir C-lr. Slll11:lons),t-!aS the amount of the sinking fund.

It is approximately $200 million noH a.'"!d our earnings this year from the sinl~ing fund, ••hich goes back into the· debt retirement, will be !l?proxill'.ately $20 million unless there is a dramatic ch.:inge in t:1e interest rate. the figures for the debt servicing costs, l~hich Hould be a fe~o• more million, are just to ·- I have not got them and it tvill take some time to get them. I thin!·: these t·:ere the only questions I left unanswered yesterday, but there may have been utore. If there are; and I. think of tha"ll, pl\en the hon. Leader of the Opposition concludes I. "ill try and answer .them. T:-,e hon.

Leader of tc~e Opposition. I t·'ould like to say .-;. f e~·' ~.JO rd.s on t:1i3

Tape :-<o. SHll :r.: - 2 ~rn.. w. :;.mm: bill, which is a very important bill, not only for •..that it itself does, it gives the government pemission to raise $1SC million, ~-•hich is not chicken feed, but Sir, because of some of the principles involved ia this bill, \{hie!'\ I ·.rould like to make mention of. First of all, Sir, like the member t(':= St.

John':; EC~.st C·!r, '!arGhall) uho seizes every occasion,and rightly so, to ~•am this House and Ne,·•foundland about the precarious fiaancial condition of the Province, I too am very concerned that this Province may, if we are not careful, reach the end of the line, the end of the rope, as far as borrm-Ting money; t:1e money necessary to provide much needed public services in this Province are concerned.

Early in September,! and a couple of r.lY colle_aB;ues •,.;ent do'·•·n to l'!et·T Yorl~ for the sole fl!1.d express purpose ncntioned at the time, of going to see offi-cials of )·loody's and Standard and Poor, in order to find out ':·:hat tl1ey thought,in confidence, about the financial condition of the Province. I did not expec~ any confidential information from them, 7-!r. Ch"nirwan, nor did I try to root or probe around and try to get anything confidential from t~em, but to talk in confidence, not in public, in pr~vate, about the financial condition of the Province generally. i,ir.

S~eaker, I must say it Has ,.,_very interesting encounter that ue had Hith those people, these financial analyists, and rating analyis"ts and !:o on. This Province, as everyone is aware, has the rati:1g t•chich falls into the category of Hoody' s category of Baa, it is actually Baa 1, but it is i:1 the category of Baa ~~hich parts our Province in

~ovemher 17,1~78 Tape ~o. 5182 AH-1 ~~. 1\T. ROl-lE : the group ~·hich is fourth from the top, fourth from the top, Sir, in terms of cur credit Horthiness as perceived by Voody's and Standard and Poor , of course,have an equivalent rating as well - they 1,1se other figures- an equivalent rating as to the Province's credit ~~orthiness.

The · 1 which we have on our BAA has been described as provisional,.Baa-i was described as provisional by :·oody's in public documents and in our con•1ersations, It is in Yoody 's bond survey of August 15,1977 that we see Eaa and the 1; . the 1 which gives us a slightly higher rating is described as provisional. It is interesting. I think ,and t~e should mention it for the record what this Baa rating of M.oody' s means to potential investors. How is it described?

Moody's describes their Baa rating group as follows; "Bonds whtch are rated Baa are considered as medium gra9e ohligations ,t1lat is 1 they are neither highly protected nor poorly secured. Interest payments and Principal security appear adequate for the present but certain protective elements may be lacking or may be characteristically unreliable over any great length of time.

Such bond.s'; says ~1 oody's, 11 Such bonds lack outstanding .investment characteristics and in fact have speculative characteristics as '~ell. 11 Now, Sir, I do not know if I were an investo.r and I had a choice as to whether I would invest money i!l bonds '-"hi.ch were characterized and described in that way,8ir, I would have some question,· naturally I ~10uld. tole are in the middle ground there; tve have not slipped detm into the pure.ly speculative nor have. t·:e gone upwards into the highly secured. We are in the middle ground, medium range bonds.

But ~1hat is significant, Sir, is that if we t-tere to slip any further - and Hoody's and Standard and Poors gave me no indication at all that there was any danger of this, I should hasten to say and to stress --but if we were to slip any further down belot~ the Baa rating then I tvould say this Province t-rould be in very

~~ovember 17,1<:'78 Tape No. 51!!2 AH-2 :.'J?.l,'.P.C'1iE: . gra~e and serious diffi::.ulty. :-<ot~ t!lere are some bond ratings going on this Fall. T'erhaps t>1hen the minister rises to his feet to talk on the bill again he can give us an indication as to whether Hoody 1 s or Standard and Poor's have indicated to him ·~hat are rating is. Has it remained the same? Do we still !lave the 1 added on ta our Baa in the case of ~'oody 1 s? I r.•ould assume. that ~~e have not slipped. 1fuat kind of a rating do they give us not·:?

The 1 was added~by the Hay,according to my discussions <vith l·:oody 's, the 1 added to the Baa~•·1hich gives us a slightly higher rating on a provisional basis,according to them •·•as added because of the economic bouyancy which appeared to accrue from the fact that Labrador Linerboard and the Come ny Chance refinery t<ere then in operation and did not appear to be in grave or serious difficulty. Because' the Province grappled \Jith the Unerboarc! situation and shut it dmm the)' rut it on. YR. H .ROlffi; ·rell,that may be so. Thay may le •.;hat they told the hon. minister and I hope that is so. rr.

HICK!'M7: did it not? VB • P. ~nm: : That is •~hat the report said too But they told me that the Linerboard mill and the Come By Chance refinery did significantly increase of ~o~iden tlle economic base of this Province. l:'hether :l.t t.·as grappled cd.th or not is inmaterial.

I mean .r am not trying to talc.e or give ;:-olitical credit or discredit on the matter. '·!'hat I at:! saytq; i.s that the rating t,•as based on the existence in operation of these ttvo companies, these tvm corporations, the Come lly Chance refinery and the Linerboard mill,and therefore since they are noH shutdown I am ~-·ondering if · this·· m:l.ght have some· adverse effect on our credit rating. I do not knotv and I hope it does not~especially since every indication now is that theee ttvo operations

November 17, 1978 Tape 5183 (Morning) PK - 1 Mr. W. N. Rowe: well become viable again. I was led to understand during my discussions with both these credit rating agencies that there is no reason at all to be believe that this Province should fall below the Baa rating so long as the Province has adequate financial management, balanced budgets especially, and the continued stability of revenue resulting from the equalization payment from the federal government. This was a point touched on by the han. member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) yesterday.

Half of our income comes from Ottawa as a Provincial Government. And it is this revenue from Ottawa which,! have no doubt at all~allows us to keep this medium grey financial credit rating which we have in the bond markets of North America.

It is very important that this government, ·this government, it is very important that this government make sure that Ottawa is impressed as to this fact - they probably already know it, very ~tell aware of it- and that nothing is done to disturb the stability of that flow of money into the Government. of Newfoundland because that,I.would say, Sir, would have a drastic effect on our credit rating. And if we were to, fall below the Baa,.~thich I will advert to in a moment or two, think the results for this Province would be drastic. ~/e have 15 per cent or more of our revenue going out in interest payments now.

If you look purely at the Provincial revenues,you are up to 30 per cent or 35 per cent , nearly 40 per cent of our revenues, Provincial revenues.going out i~ interest payment on our debt. \ I would say, Sir, that if there is ever sense of jeopardy as to our ·income from Ottawa at the present time,that anyone looking at the ratio of our interest payments to our Provincial income vtould not have very much faith in the security of investment in this Province.

So I just make mention of these points, Sir, first of all so that the people of the Province will know we are very much aware of them here in the Opposition, in the Liberal Party, number one·, and number two, to make sure that the government itse 1 f while they have the reins of power in this Province do nothing, in fact,

November 17, 1978 Tape 5183 (Morning) PK - 2 Mr. W. N. Rowe: do everything to make sure that the stability of revenue comes in because in the absence of that we would be in very great trouble. let us look at the bond rating which is just below the one which we have, we have Baa let us look at Ba in Moody's. I am not referring to the Standard and Poor,they have other ways of rating it, I have it a 11 here, Mr. Speaker. But just look at Moody's for the moment because basically we are talking about "the same thing.

Let us look at the Baa, which is the rating group immediately below the one we have now, the Baa, and let us see how it is described by.Moody's and how it could be read by potential investor~ were we to suffer the drastic result of tumbling into that bond rating, that category on the North American bond markets, in fact, the international bond markets. let us see what it says, "Bonds which are rated Ba are judged to have specualtive elements. There future cannot be considered to be well assured.

Often the protection of interest and principal payments may be very moderate, and.therefore not well safeguarded during both good and bad times over the future. Uncertainty of position characterizes bonds in this class.''uncertainty of position characterizes bonds in this class." And I would say, Sir, if we were to fall into that bond rating,that category Ba,it could very well drastically affect our ability to get capital at all in the first place on the international markets, or certainly,if we are able to get it,at anything approaching reasonable rates of interest.

And one of the vicious circles of the position we are in as a Province is that the less money you have, the less revenue you have for all ·the purposes of government, your money that you have to borrow is going to cost you more in addition; If you are well off, flush, tremendous income and revenues coming in,then you are going to be able to borrow even more money on the markets at much lower rates of interest. Once the vice tightens on you and you do not have enough money to provide the necessary services, you do not have enough money to run· the government, what do you get? A break from 'I

November 17, 1978 Tape 5183 (Morning) Mr. W. N. Rowe: the international markets? No, Mr. Chairman, that is when the noose tightens around your neck and your interest payments for your borrowing goes up even more. So the vicious circle is there, a very vicious circle which can have a very PK - 3

::ovel!ll,eor 17th. , 1970 Tape SJ.~t. disastrous effect on the Province if ue are not careful. For example;the importance of this bond rate I am talking about is not just an academic thing.The importance of it is if you compare the Baa which t.re have to the Aa vrhich is i=ediately above ours -I believe ~!ova Scotia has theo Aa 1~.oody '·s ilonr1 ratbg. I believe t!1ere is only - what? - i'rovinces of r.anada with the top ratinf,, Ontario - there are ttm Alberta. 1m. 1-1.:1. r..m-m: Alberta •.. 5JelJ ,Alberta has never been rated.

It: !las never borrm.red money, TI1ey did ,_They (vent and asJ,_ert our advice as to how you got into the marl:et about two years-ago because they wanted to go in and harrow some: .. money even though they dirl not neerl it. Jhey wanted to get a rating. ~·.r.. . ;.: • !1 • ROl.JP.: That is right. But there are two, I believe Ontario and perhaps Quebec,and there is a reason for Quejec. ~ffi. 11ICiC1AN: I tvould suggest that Sasl:atche~~an is soon going to be there. ;~. H .~1.

RCIJ:l: Saskatchewan tvill soon be the-re, Alberta is 'there already. ll•1t in any event just to show that ifi is not academic nonsense that I am talking here,the rating above ours.the Aa rating in ~-~oody's 'lunicipal llond Yield, uhich is what they use for the purposes of the Provinces of Canada as well 1 if you look at that in this book ,look at the rates· of interest pairl by people •.rho are rater!

Aa;md look at the rates of interest p<!irl 'trarlitionally over the last number of years by provinces and municipalities which are rated Baa, ~1hich is the on·e •,re have compared t£1 the aa v7hich is immediately above us, if you look at yc.u tdll see that the difference in interest payments is at least !_,"of 1 per cent?at least that much 1and in some cases nore t!1an 1 per cent in interest. But. even if you take the rate of ~ of 1 per cent which tve are "losing" as a result of having the lower bond rating t!-.an,say 9 l!ova Scotia has, the ~ifference in cost to

::ovenber 17th., 1~7~ Tape :~c. 51~l. T.ll·: - 2 }~. r~. >~. ROl-T.: our Pr~vince on our $2.5 billion debt,direct and indirect,but the difference in cost to this Province cenerally on our $2.5 billion debt is !Jrohably Hell over $12 million or more,$12 million at least every year because we have the Baa rating rather than the higher Aa rating 1 $12 million or more do~m the drain every year on the dead for no other reason than He had this one step lo••er rating co:P.pared to,say, the !'rovince of ::ov::1 Scotia or some. of the other provinces of Canada "ho hr.ve a ::igher rating.

Just the one ill!!:'lediately above ours,$12 r..illion just on thl'.t alone. A. small amount of rnoney,perhaps~comparer\ to Hhat is spent but tvhen you look at what can be done ••ith $12 million the Uin:tster of Health would not have•·· to ••orry about statements being made that health is not a political priority, $12 inillion ••ould go a long >YAY to gettilip, some of the health facilities started at least t!~at · arP. :lrastic~lly needed in this Province. Th<1t in r.onetary terms is import or. t .

Of course,what is vitally important is that we at least keep t11e bond rating we have,that ••e do not allm• ourselves to s1.ip any further because I •;ould say· then the difference in the interest we· are paying Hould be perhaps 2 or 3 per cent more than He are paying or than Nova Scotia is paying if we can cet money at all,•;hich would be a doubtf•u proposition at best.

I am going to mention briefly, Sir, one or tT.Yo items ••hich caused me some concern presently as far as our bonrl rating is concerned,and also a couple o.f matters c·•':lic:l are a source of great hope to me personally for the future of our Province .Standa-rd and Poor in a suT.ll'!ary on ?le1vfoundland t1ated October 17th., 1977,just a year ago·I believe this is t:1e last tir.e they 1:-.ad rated the Province up until then-stated that the real gross of the gross provincinl. ;>r.oc.uct 'has lagge<l behinrl the growth of the gross national ;:>reduct from l'l72 to i 0 71i. · It- ·Has ?..?'• :;:er--cent ·.i'ersus 3.') per cent, 3 per cent V'"nts tf per cent from 1?72 to 1976 compared to the ·fe:ieral groHth rate.

I am not r,oing to make anyt!1ing of the fact that c:lis decline 'b r,rosr, ;::oro•rincial ?reduct happens to coincide '.-Tit!1 t'he advent of this governr.e!'.t .llut '

it is a fact thnt this r-resent FC Government over the past seven or eigl~t years it has h.een in po;ver has seen a

November 17, 1978, Tape 5185, Pagel-- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: dramatically decreased Gross Provincial Product. tve should keep that in mind and the people of the Province should keep it in mind. Whether it is their fault or not, opinions will differ. I happen to think'it is; they will probably say it is not, Mr. Chairman. But it has to be the statement made in Standard and Poors ;::1at our Gross Provincial Product has lagged behind the Gross National Product in these years,l972 to 1976, that this government has been in power, has to be a source of real concern to us and to the people of the Province. MR.

HICKMAN: It lagged behind long before that. MR. W.N.ROtvE: They also mention, Standard and Poor, in their same report on the Province, that the total public sector debt has been steadily increasing between 1973 and 1977 at an annual growth rate of 17 per cent. They take those years,which happen to correspond, again, with this government's advent into power, they take those years and show an annual growth rate of our debt at a steady increase of 17 per cent. "The debt burden of Newfoundland" they say "is heavy in comparison with other Provinces." And Moody's bond.survey makes the same kind of statement as well.

Mr. Speaker, I make mention of these points, I am not going to belabour them, they should be made for the record. I am proud of·the initiative we took as a party and as an opposition in going to New York in the ·first place to sit down and talk to these people in a responsible fashion in order to let them know that the .alternate government in this Province, the alternative to this particular administration,was concerned enough to do that kind of thing, go down and find out from the horse's mouth, so to speak, what they thought our financial condition

November 17, 1978, Tape 5185, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: was. Somebody mentioned that it was the first time that any members of oppositions had ever done it as far as they could remember. It was an initiative that we are proud of, a positive initiative to try to ascertain where we stand and what we should do. And the message carne back loud and clear we must do nothing to endanger our stability of revenue coming in.

If we want to remain where we are, if we want to get a better bond rating and have additional money to provide the needed services for the Province we have to increase our revenues drastically, there has to be a stable increase of revenues.

And when I put the question about the Upper Churchill power and whether if we turned off the switch in order to force Quebec to give us a fair share of the value of that power, what effect that would have on the bond markets, whether it would turn Newfoundland into a Banana Republic, I was impressed by the man at Moody's,who is very familiar with the Province, tvho said, "No, not at all." MR. HICKMAN: Not at all? MR.

W.N.ROWE: "It would depend entirely" he said, "on the results that you obtain·; the means you use are irrelevant." Then we had a long interesting discussion about the Arabian countries, where everyone was going to say, "Oh, when they double the price of oil"- the OPEC .countries got together and doubled the price·of oil- everyone was going to say, ''They have ruined themselves on Wall Street.

They have ruined themselves on Wall Street now, they have turned themselves into Banana Republics," only to find that the· Arabian countries now having done· it, the result is that they could buy. and sell Wall Street five times over. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. Moody's too. MR. W.N.ROWE: And Moody's and Standard and Poor and all of them. It depended entirely on the result~ the means they used,which shook the Western World at that time,

November 17, 1978, Tape 5185, Page 3 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: we are still suffering the results of it now, had no more effect on their credit worthiness -no more effect? What am I saying? It had a tremendous effect on their credit worthiness, it cirove it up from a dismally low one right up to the very top. So, Sir, we should not be afraid to take dramatic, bold moves which could affect our revenue situation here simply because some young credit analyst down on Wall Street may say, Well, you know, you better watch yourself there, and this sort of thing. MR. HICKMAN: Now what did they say, yes or no? MR.

W.N.ROWE: He said, well I am talking about - this fellow here in Moody's who was a senior, a senior man, I believe he is. a vice-president, I have his name here somewhere - indicated quite ~!early - I could tell the han. minister his name in confidence; obviously - indicated quite clearly that it would have no effect, it would depend entirely on the result. MR. PECKFORD: ·· MR. W.N.ROWE: No adverse effect. No adverse effect,. it would depend entirely on the result of our negotiations. Now, if we were to fail for some reason or other

::vver..~e:- li, 19iS Tape Xo. 3186 which eludes ~:~e for the :r.om~nt 1 I :1ave :-.o doubt at all it 1roulJ affect our bond rating if ~·le sudcienly - :r?". nrcr:It\.N: tend rating~ '1e uould he gone. all lHmd". Yes, but do not miud the hen. :·!inister of Finance who makes Attila the Hun look like a co=unist, th::~t is he~<• far right !J.e is, and cautious, and unventuresome. He should be ru:::~ing a bull • s-~ye shop and !teei'ir.g l>ooi:s, 1::. ttle colur:.ns, :;au ;~,m;, chree bull • s-eyes sold today, forty cents. :rr>.. si:-r:coN.s: !fR. 'W. RO~·;E: -. photograph. That is right.

He. are tal~dng a~out, you kn.ow1 if 1·7e are going to do anything Hith this Province there has to be a bold ne1~ ap::>roach to ,.,;;at 1ve do with our resources. :1R. HICK:·1AN: Like in fisheries. HR. H. ROl-:rE: That is all I am sfying. And you take these kinds of risks. And this senior analyist rlo1m tl1ere, I oelie•Je he is a vice-president, I have his card and letters and so on here, indicated that quite clearly.

Hhat I = saying is that if the t~inister ~~ere to go down and sit do1m 1rlth some Junior financial advisor, either on i-T all Street or in the government down here, is t!1e point I am trying to make, and he said, "Oh, he is going to turn us into a banana republic if t·re try that." I am saying to :1in:, do .not listen to it, that it would d<-.pend entirely on tile results that 11e obtain. What is the hen. member sayin~) If '~e tried what? Could he just explain that.briefly? mt. W.

Rm·1E: No, what I am saying is that tve have a resource in Labrador knom1 as the Upper Churchill Power i)~velopment which is yielding $800 i!lillic!~ or $900 million a year in value to the Province of '1'Jchcc in various Hays. Pure profit when they sell po:rer to Con-Ed d01m in Wew York State at thirty or thirty-t1m mils, w!J.atever they are getting for it. In terms of the low rates they have to pay 9 comparitively S!Jeaking 1domestically for t:1eir pot·rer, the

~lo\•e~ber 17, 1?78 Tape :{o. 5186 :~. ~·. ROI·.'E: industrial cevelopme:tt the}· .:1re attracting, all of these things r.:akes the value of the power -,rorth $800 million to $1 billion a year to the Province of Que~ec, throug!l quebec Hydro. It gives Quebec Hydro the top possible ratings on the bond markets of the 1vorld and drags the Province 2 of f!uebec· along with it - it is t:1e tail wagging t;1e dog - as a result of our Ur-,er C;.urchill ;:>Ovler, f,N EON. ~~ER: Intere~.t savings. :rR. ~·'. ?.DivE: Interest snv:!.n;:;s, all of these t:iings. That is right.

Uhat I am saying :!.s tl;at ue in t1Jis P:-ovincc, this is nothing ne1v obviously, He have been saying it nm• for tl·;a or three years, The hen. Cl1airman of the Public Accounts Co=ittee, I believe in fact publicly mentioned the matter first of all in this Rouse or outside, he and the r.~ember for Eagle River C·~::. Rtracl:mn), and :: :.;as pic~;:ed up by the member for the Straits of ?.·ell·~ Isle (l!r.

Rol-erts) and nyself and others who thoup;ht it 11as 2. brill:!.ant sup.;P.;estion, a zood idea, legally and politically' to take !vhutever action is necessary to get back a fair share of the value of the Upper Churchill r>tJwer for this. Province. And if that is considered to be hulf, that if $400 million, $500 million a year, th-:! sal'\e ir1come as 1~e notv get from all other provincial sources. I me.'ln the stakes are so hi~h that I IY'OUld not be ~rilling to lis ten tc; ~Lc advice of tl1e hon. ;·tinister of Finance on ~he matter 0ecause !~~ is tov cautiuus, too conservative in his approach. :·a.

SI:1i·10~iS: Cowardly-. ;!ll,. ;.: • ROWE: No. 011 no , he is not a co1-1ard. :·lo . :lo. :~o . ~lo. lie is a brave fellow. ·But he is cautious and conservative anci extremely right wing on all of these things and \Y'Ould not 'daiLt to hurt the fee.!.ings of his co17orate friends, I an sure. I Hish I ":lad so:ne. The first time you meet one that I k.r.ov, because you move in ::hat circle, introduce me. :·'LR. ~<. ROI-1E: Oh yes, I rr.cv.:: in tl'at circle a lot. That is what I an saying, Sir, and t:1at ;1hat t•e nzed is a gcv€:rnmer.t c:1is one i: it ··•ill do it, I Hould support the ini tiat:i.vc, or ar.oci1er

::o~·e.ml:cr 17, 1S'7S Tape :~o. 5106 :;:r - J ~!R. u. !l.mm: govertll'lent - whic~ Hill ~al'e tka tever action is necessary. One of the actions that can be taken is to realize first of all that both the power and the s~o,'itch are O;t either side of the border and the implications are simple ti1ere, as one and cr.e is tlvo, and that we should for a variety of reasons ranegotiate t:1e deal t,re have in Quebec. ~iow I am going to be talking wit!1 Quebec on the Upper Churchill power. ~1e will be talking about this as the session goes on and into the new session· of the House.

I am not going to belabour 'it here· now 1 but the amount of money that could come to this Province would be astoundiug in its affect on our economy, the services we could provide 1with ~ full ~ployment. i·!e ~·:ould be o:1e of the !:ave provinces of Canada, i<~stead of dragging alont; ,at tile '::;;.il en<l of C~>nada, beg3:L1g for c.ore hand outs, hop:!..ng they will not cut off our equalization payments,as I mentioned earlier, so "~<'e will lose our bond rating in the international markets. ~:hat are we,anyway? Talk about t>elfare bums\ :-!R. SU!:10NS: Knuci:.liug under in the competition of bonds. lU'.. W.

ROWE: Knuckle under, ?lay no role up there at all as the Premier and :-linister of Justice and Finance did there a couple of wee:'s ago, no impact at all, not

November 17, 1978. Tape 5187 EC - 1 HR. W. N. ROWE: so much as a pebble thrown into a pool, a puddle of water. I saw the hon. the Minister of Finance make a little speech, Sir. Before I settled back in my chair it was all over. I said, 'What is going on? What did he say?' MR. SH1MONS: At least he spoke. HR. w. N. ROI~E: At least he did have a word or two to say. No impact made, treated as a joke by all Premiers and ministers and members of the Government of Canada!

Now they are going to go up again for another joke, hoping that we will not hurt anyb~dy's feelings up there because we want to make .sure we do not hurt our revenue from Ottawa and so on. I do not have a philosophy of 'turn her into a barren land' or anything like that, but I must say, Mr. Chairman, at some point along in our future we h~ve to decide whether ~e are going to grapple with these problems in a forthright, bold, adventuresome manner or whether we are going to just let her go on as she has been going, a welfare recipient from the rest of Can,.da. Are we going to go on doing that?

As years go on, people of vigour, people of energy and industry and intellect moving out and going to other places becausP. there is nothing here to attract them, do we want that? I do not want it. I want Newfoundland and Labrador to keep what it has and to become and to remain vigourous economically, Mr. Chairman, and to have something here which cart keep our young people here, a quality of life that can keep our young people here, and the dignity and prosperity and pride that comes from full employment and a high level of income. That is all I am talking about.

And in order to achieve that we are going to have to make some moves which may ruffle some

November 17, 1978 ~1R. l~. N. ROWE: some people to death. Tape 5187 EC - 2 feathers and which may frighten I am sure the hon. the Minister of Finance would be frightened ~o death at the prospect of it· HR. HICK}IAN: Call out the Constabulary. MR. W. N. ROWE: Of course, he has a lawyer's mentality, which is good, he is an excellent lawyer, he is an excellent Minister of Justice in some respects. But when he ventures into politics he is not so good because he has a tendency to ball~that up. But when it comes to the exercise of the legal aide of the ministry of Justice he is alright.

As Minister of Finance he is simply too cautious,.too right wing and too conservative. Mr. Speaker, let me ask the minister to answer this question when he rises a little later on - give us some indication as to when the bulk of the debt which we now owe has to be rolled over in the financial markets of the world. Maybe he can give us some indication as to what is coming up now.

Every now and then you look at some of the bonds which we owe, when they come due, when they have to be paid back and so on; can he tell us if there is. sort of a day of reckoning which is fast approaching where we have to roll over, where we have to borrow money to replace bonds which are fast coming due, and when substantial amounts are coming due of the $2.5 billion currently owed directly and indirectly? The reason I ask it, it is not just a simple question, you see, Sir, of rolling over.

If we owe say $20 million on a particular bond at 5-3/8 per cent interest~ it is not just a matter of rolling that over, because the way the markets are now and are likely to be for the next two or three years you are going to have to pay perhaps 10 per cent or 11 per cent - 9-1/2 per cent, 10 per cent, 11 per cent for that money in order to roll it over. In other words, what I am saying, Mr. Chairman, is that there may be coming

November 17, 1978 Tape 5187 EC - 3 MR. W. :;. ROl~E: a time when in order to just sustain the debt which we currently have, our interests rates are going to go up phenomenally. Instead of being 15 per. cent or 16 ·per cent of our inco.me,they could be up to 20 per cent, 22 per cent, 25 per cent. These are questions which should be answered by the Minister of Finance, Sir, and I hope he does when .he stands up. When do they come due? What are the interest rates now on them? Five per cent?

When we roll it over js that going to turn into 11-1/2 per cent or 10-1/2 per cent, which is going to increase the strain on this Province? We should not hide our heads in the sand on these matters. Let us know what is likely to happen, what is upcoming, forthcoming and what action is being taken by this government to try to cope with some of t~ese serious problems. That I consider to be a very serious problem. I know my hon. friend, the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (Mr.

Simmons) has been doing some research on. it to see what. the impact of that is likely to be as some of these bonds come due and we have to roll them over, not to get fresh money for new services, but just to pay back these bonds, pay back the bondholders. We have to borrow new money merely to pay our debts, but unfortunately

November 17, 1978 Tape 5188 (Morning) Mr. W. N. Rowe: we are going to have to borrow at a much higher rate of.interest and increase the debt burden, the interest ratio, the ratio of interest to income in this Province. I believe that is a serious problem. the Minister of Finance on that? MR. HICK~·lAN: Yes. Have we heard a word from MR. W; N. ROWE: Not a word on that serious problem which PK - 1 is coming up now in a few years, a couple of years, 1980 , I believe, if I am not mistaken, that area of time is a period during which a great number of bonds come due. Is that correct?

MR; HICKMAN: Yes, every year they fall due. MR. W. N. ROWE: Yes,I know.But there is an area - I know every year some bonds come due and that is a cumulative effect - but there is a time coming ~/hen a greater number of bonds than ordinary, than usual will come due in one fell s~1oop, so as to speak, and our roll over problems are going to be very much more difficult than they have been over the last number of·years. I would like for the minister to say a word on that if he would, and what the pitfalls are and what the problems are.

Now, Sir, one is tempted to range a little broadly on this bill , since it is a bill to raise money by way of loan by the Province. But I am not going to get into a budget speech debate on. it. I think, the government has been sufficiently clobbered and chastized for its sins of commission and omission over the last six or seven years.

But there is one thing I am going to mention because I consider it to be a matter of high principle , and I am talking about the Public Accounts Committee which was appointed by this House in a resolution of· this House passed,! would assume,unanimously by this House- I was not in the House at the time, but I doubt if there was a dissenting voice­ naming the members of the Public Accounts Committee, naming the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, the present Chairman·, the member for Burg eo-Bay d 'Espoir (Mr. Simmons).

November 17, 1978 Tape 5188 (Morning) PK - 2 Mr. W. N. Rowe: And then we saw, subsequent to this House having done that, Mr. Chairman, which, I would submit to the hon. Minister of Finance, has been the practice in nearly all the Committees set up, that is, to name the Committee and the Chairman·of the Committee by resolution in this House, if not all of them. Does the hon. Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, can he remember an occasion where a committee was set up where the chairman was not named by this House? MR. SIMMONS: No. We res·earched that.

There is no occasion since Confederation in the House that the chairman was not·named in the resolution. MR; W; N; ROWE: ·Now, Sir, now, Mr. Chairman, a resolution sets up a committee which is consistent with· the ongoing practices and procedures and traditions of this House, names the Chairman - it is true there may be a rule in the Standing Orders. talking about electing a Chairman by the members .and so on and so forth. That may be a rule. MR. SIMMONS: It says, "Where necessary". MR; W. N.

ROWE: "Where necessary," it says, "Where necessary." For example, if there is a resignation; for example, if there is a sickness, or an incompetence, some mental incompetence of some sort, which clearly was not the case here except on the other side perhaps. And we get - MR. HICKMAN: Just for purposes of clarification. MR; W. N. ROWE: Pardon? MR. HICKMAN: Just for purposes of clarification, would the hon. gentleman indicate where in the rule it says, "where necessary"? .MR. ·w. N. ROWE: do not know. I do not have the rule book in front of me here. MR.

HICKMAN: thought it said each of the said committees shall elect a chairman, but I may be wrong. MR; ·siMMONS: Not in the context. Read the whole thing. MR. HICKMAN: And at the commencement, and if necessary. Obviously if somebody resigns or -

November 17, 1978 MR. W. N. ROWE: MR.· HICKMAN: MR. W. N. ROWE: Tape 5188 (Morning) And if necessary. All right. The point, Sir, is that the precedents and the procedures and traditions of this House have been clear and that is that-maybe .against that particular rule.· I do not know. It has never been raised before - and everyone has been clear about what the procedures have been, namely, get your committees set up and get your chairman appointed in the resolution setting up the committee by this House. PK - 3 ·Now, Sir, suddenly·this rule so-called is dragged out of oblivion and applied. What is it ~pplied to?

Is it applied to the Resources Committee because some member has·died or gotten· sick, some chairman,rather? Is.it applied to the Social Policy Committee of the House, which I suppose has probably never been struck or. never met, to the chairman of that to get. a new chairman because he·has resigned,is that is what has happened? Oh; no, Sir. What has happened is this, it is clear what has happened, everybody in the Province is aware what has happened.

And the reason I am mentioning the Public Accounts Committee if Your Honour thinks I am being irrelevant is that the Public Accounts Committee, of course, is the watchdog on government financing, and this loan will be spent by this government, and there will be no watchdog on

:\ove1:~ber 17, 1978 Tape :-1o. 5189 ~!R. W. ROWE: the spendi~g of this loan if t~is goverru:~ent has its ~1ay, except two or three puppets in the Premier's Office or in the Cabinet. Now, Hr. Chairmar:, 1::·.c:.t do they do? They single out the Public Accounts Committee, ~1hich has been headed up by rJ:,• hon. colleague, the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (;·tr. Simrno:-~

s) for a couple of years, and tJhich ltas creamed this govern.uent by :1::.s superb· chairmansl1ip, rooting out scandal after scandal and evidence of corruption after corruption and skulduggery and underhandedness for a two or three year period. He has creamed the government publicly and in the Committee. This is characterized as political action on his _part, doing his duty as a member, as the Chairman and as a member of that Public Accounts Cor..rrJ.ttee. This Corc:rr.ittee is singled out and against .all the precedents· ar•.::! procedures and traditions of this hon.

P.ouse since Confederation, he is singled out by these four puppets of :he government in an effort to get rid of him so he cannot dig up any more evidence of wrongdoing, or mismanagement or incompetence or skulduggery of this government either independentiy or as mentioned by the Auditor General, a servant of this House, in his annual report. That is ,,,hat they try to do, Sir. I do not kno1v \·Ihether to blame the Prcnier or not. I have blamed the Premier publicly, if not for directing this to be done, then for condoning it. !AR. SiaHONS: :·~. l;. R01o11!:: Eut a puppet must have a puppeteer. That is the p0int.

The thing is this. I do not knov t·)hether the Premier 1·1as a little like Henry III .,.,':len he said to a couple of his puppets that ·;,ere around ;tim, "1·n1o Hill rid me of this neddlesome nonk?" referring. ·to St. Tl1onas Beckett. ,And his puppets go out and stab St. Thomas to o:leath thinking that the king ''<mted that done, \•lhen the king in fact \laS ruer~ly [;r-..:mblia£; o-..;t

1 ~ ~I' Tape ~io. 5189 loud. I .io not kno~/ whet:1cr they £:1ll i:~to that C<l.tcgory ~,;,ere t!-1.: Prc:mier ;;aid, "'tl1lo is goir,g to· :=;et r:!.d of Simmons fe-r me?" .A.n-:1 these fellotvs, Sir, thc:;c ho:~. ::~embers trying to curry favour ~titn the Prenier ar.d ~1ith the government, trying to adva:1ce their o~om interests within the Pre-qier's eyes, go out and stab the hon. member for Burgee - :..c.y d 'I:spoir C'.r. s:.::~:nons) as tllese puppets of Ecr.ry I:I did to Eecl·.ett. I roo not k:1ow if ~~~c.: :!.s the situation. Their problen Has they did not i;;ncu ::hich end uas the blade. :·m.. vi.

ROt-7E : . Yes, that is right. They did not tvield the broad sword too well, 1·fr. Cllai::mc.n. As a matter of fact the:: hacked off their own ears and assorted limbs rather than <loing the job on our Thonas Beckett on this side of the llousc. I do not \:.•m~ if that was the .>ituation, Sir, or t;net.her in fact the Premier gathered t:1e1:1 all together and in a conspir.acy said, "Okay now, here is vhat t·te '.;ill do. We have to get rid of Simmons. He is e:,:posing too much corruption. He is ;;~ai:ir.a us loc:: l::.ke crooks.

He is· digging up too much that tve hope to keep covered up." The hon. r.:ember knows that titat type· of language is :1ot only unparliamentary but it is about ten times unparliamentary. :·!R • \·7 • ROl-lE : I said he is making us look like crooks. I am not chat:act•~rizing anyone as a crook. The Committee is making :.~s look like crooks. That is what I am saying the Prel!lier said to his ;:lUp!)ets. :l'R. SI:';MOl~S:. I rise on a point of order. Judge for yourself Hhat you call people lvho roll $13 million to $7.0 million out of public treasury and share with their buddies. What do you call tr:en?

I call them crool:s. }:R. EICIC'J..N: Hr. Chaiman, on that point of o::::,:cr, r;1.::t COti';;tent even made froc the seat by the hon. gentler.~ar.., so-called

::ovc:r.hc:- li, 19i8 T:!pe :ro. 5189 t.[l - 3 :1on. gentleman ,from Bureeo - ::.::~y d 'Espoir C.:r. Sir.unons) is not only unparliamentary, not only_is it unparliamentary, !lOt only is it unprecedented, cut I ask Your l:ionour to ta!-:e the necessary discipli:ury action fonvith, order complete, absolute withdrawal. If he wants to get back, if he ~~ants to drag this place again to the gutter let him do :i.t all by :'li!~self, anU not embarrass his colleagues .on the other si·.:.~ :.~o shudder every time he opens his mouth. :·!R. ~~. ROWE : l~at is the point of order?

If I r.1ay speak, t~hat is the point of order? Would the han. :anister of Finance care to indicate? ~IR. HICKHAN: "Crooks, robbers~' Hhat more? 1m.. w. P..Olo/E: l~hat is he talking about? "" ,:.;.\.. EICKJ'!AN: You. '~ .' . .r\. IL ROWE: iie lvill have to get iiansarc! and :1ave a look at this. I did not hear any of this, as directed against the government !!R. RICIOIAN: I heard it and I am not prepared to take it from that gentleman of all peo?le. · :cr. '.7. RO\VE: -·and the ministers, his former campaign ~~ager. l1R. HICIC-!A!T: I do not nind debate. I do not mind accurate debate.

But I am not :::;oing to be a party to drag:::;i:lz ti1is place r,own the gutter. :•!R. w. ROl-lE: Oh, let us not hear this· pious nonsense, ~~t'. Chairman. XR. CHAilt'1A.'l: Order, p:!.ease! UP ... w. ROl-lE: The point is that no poi:1t cf order '..laS made. 1:1' .. CHAI!t·!AN: Order, please: Order, please: If I may just have a 1vord on this.· It 3eems to ne that a point of order .,,as raised by the han. House Lead~r at the ~·Yard 'crooks 1 t·Yhicil 1:b.s

November 17, 1978 Tape 5190 EC - 1 I MR. CHAIRMAN: (Dr. Collins) mentioned was appli~d against someone~that he feels would raise a point of order in this House. This is the issue. I would seek clarification from members of Committee if this is an issue that we will have to go back to Hansard over or whether it can be clarified without going back to Hansard. HR. SIMNONS: I think we can clarify it pretty easily, Mr. Chairman.

I said from my seat - first of all my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, was speaking at the time, was putting some w6rds for the purpose of making his point, dramatizing, putting some words in the mouth of the Premier, who in his scenario had gathered together his group of people and had said to them, 'Now this fellow, Simmons, is d~ing things and making us look like a bunch of crooks.' He was putting that in the mouth of the Premier as a possible scenario.

And then at that point the Minister of Justi~e interjected, took some umbrage from it - I can understand he would be sensitive on these points - and it was then I interjected with a question, I admit somewhat rhetorical: perhaps this is my sin - I interjected with the question, "What do you call a group of people who squander - these are not the words, but the essence -who take $18 million to $20 million of the Public Treasury and lash it out to your friends without tender?" I said, ·"What do you call them if. you do not call them crooks?" Now, .l1r. Chairman, I call them crooks ..

If it is unparliamentary, I will not say it in this Chamber. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Members of Committee know that one attempts if ~t all possible to be courteous to one another. As a matter of fact,if one is discour~eous to another, a close reading of Beauchesne would say that

November 17, 1978 Tape 5190 EC - 2 HR. CHAIRMAN: (Dr. Collins) that is unparliamentary. We seem here to be in an area where the phrase or word used could be considered in that context although clearly this is an area that is perhaps legitimate debate as to how money was spent and how it was not spent and whether it was spent wisely and so on. So at the risk of appearing discourteous, I would invite the bon. member if he would clarify that his word was not used in that context, it was not meant in.a discourteous way; and perhaps in that vein it might be as well to withdraw it in this context. HR.

SUfMONS: I only assume, Mr. Chairman, from the fact that several people were looking at me, you were probably talking to me. If that is the case, no discourtesy is intended. But, Mr. Chairman, if the Chair insists as it should on insuring that there be no discourtesy, it puzzles me that the Chair would allow the Minister of Justice just a few moments ago to refer to a member of this House, in this case me, as a so-called hon. member. Now, Mr.

Speaker, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and if the Minister of Justice knows of anything which I have done in this House which is dishonourable, let him have the guts to stand up and say so. But in the reeantime, I believe that the same requirement is incumbent on him as any other member that he observe the rules of the game and the courtesies of this exercise, and it puzzles me that the Chair did not intervene when he said it. But I guess the Chair has an explanation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I invited the hon. member to withdraw the imputation that he was using a word that would be discourteous and I understand from his remarks to me that he is doing so. He brought up another point vith regard to the word 'so-called'. I must admit that that escaped me and if I should have brought

Nove~ber 17, 1978 Tape 5190 EC - 3 MR. CIIAIRHAN: (Dr. Coliins) it up at the time, it was not done for that reason, it quite escaped me. I do have to point out to the hon. the Lead~r of the Opposition that his time has now elapsed, the forty-five minutes have elapsed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. CHAIRHAN: Order, please! I have made an incorrect statement there. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. }!R. W. N.

ROl-lE: I quite frankly was not aware of whether I had spoken for forty-five minutes or ninety minutes, I got so carried away by trying to make my point on the hon. the Minister of Finance, a bit like knocking your head up against a brick wall,I guess: it has a tendency to render you semi-conscious. Hr.

Chairman, I am only going to speak for another five minutes or so, and then some of my colleagues may want to say a few words on this bill, but I do want to stress as strongly as I can the violation of great principle involved in the members of this Public Accounts Committee on the government side of the House scuttling the Chairman duly appointed by this bon.

House for purely political reasons ~nd to safeguard their own political positions, to save the skins of their colleagues in the government politically, to try to keep matters which should see the light of day and have a breath of sunshine brought on them, keep them under wraps and under cover, ·under rocks,

~<ovember 17,1978 Tape ~0. 51'?1 AE-1 stop these rocks from being turned over and see what is underneath them, a job,by the way,which is not very pleasant for anybody, Nobody likes doing it. ::<obody like the connotation or the description of being negative but if .you are dealing with a government and minister~ whose actious are entirely negative , whose actions are the opposite of positive, the opposite of beneficial,are to the detriment of the people of thfs 'Province,then it is pretty hard IJhen you are describing those actions or IJhen you are uncovering those unsavory actions to not fall under· the bane of being described as a little negative yourself, Mr.

Chairman. That is unfortunate and nobody enjoys doing that. But, Sir, the people are entitled to the truth, the people are entitled to kncn.- how thelr money is spent· including this $150 million presently being borrowed by the authorization of this House, T):ley are entitled to know that .And they are entitled to knot• thAt the sin of the member of Burgeo Bay 'Espoir (}!r. Simmons), the Chairman of the Pu~lic Accounts Cornmittee,is that he did his job to well.

That is his crime, that is his sin and for that the hon. mem~ers on the other side of the House, particularly the four sitting in the Committee representing the government and so on, in doing that these members have decided to try to punish him politically and. publicly, to try and humiliate him. ~fR. snn·10NS: )'ou cannot blame the members. They are more to be pitied than blamed, those four. The puppets, Sir, are· "not to be blamed. They are just doing what they are told by the Premier." Go and get rid of Simmons.". DR. wn:sor.: ~lP.. CHAIJU!,A.."l: !:·R. WI~: A point of order. A point of order has come up.

I would think that the word•puppet• is out of order in this House.At least it tJas last Summer when the "ord Has used by a member on this side describing some members of the 6ppositi6n being puppets of the power in Panama. The word

Xovemher 17,1<178 Tape No. 5191 All-2 DR. tH~lSOR: puppet tvas ruled out of order and I assume that ruling would still stand in this context. On that point of order,Sir.

The point then, Sir, was that somebody was characterized on this side of the House as being the puppet of somebody outside the House altogether, as being under the influences of somebody outside the Rouse. 1fuat I am saying is perhaps to be considered to be a compliment by ~any people- party rliscipline, party solidnrity and so on. ~!hat I am saying is that there are member.s on that s.ide of the House who follow, a bit slavishly perhaps, who support their leader, the Premier of the Province, tvho support him,adhering to the principle of party discipline -it is two party politics .-support him .. even to the extent of knifing the Chairman .appoint~aci ~Y this House.

That is all I am saying .And if that characterizes a puppet I would say· it ls characterized correctly. But I 1vould not, Sir, in anyway describe any member of that side of the House or this side of the House as being under the undue influence of anyone outside the House or being a puppet in that respect. I would not do it. That woulc! be disgraceful, Sir, But I see nothing t.•rong 1dth characterizing a member as being onder the control or supporting slavishly his o~m government or his mm Premier. And that is the context in 1;hich I meant it, l-"r. Chairman. MP.. HICJ;!~: On that point of order, Hr. Chairman.

This is certainly a new approach to the

interpretation of a point of order that if it is said on one side of the House and H is not true and then if it comes from the other side of the House you can use it. This tvould be the ne~• Rowe-Sinunons -Beauches~e. Either a ~-1ord is unparliamentary, desp.ite the context. ·in which it is used 1or it is not.But if we want to 1vrite a new book of rules I suppose we can do it and throw Beauchesne out the windmv as well as the rules of decency and common sense.

Tape No. 5191 AH-3 &.CHAIJWA."l: Order, please! If the Committee t~ill permit at this stage because I have heard statements from both sides \~hich I think clarifies the tnntter. :-'R. Sil·~~ONS: }'R. HICIGIAN: YP .• S Iz.¥0N S : MR. CHAIRHAN: ~'R. HICK}~;IN: ( Inaudible)· Is the hen. gentleman casting reflection on the Chair~ Yes, yes. Order'· please! A point of privileRe. The.· hen. gentleman from Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (l'r. S:!Jnmons) says he is casting reflection on the Chair. That cannot pass, ~~r. Chairman- KR. Sno/ONS: Indeed I am. MR.

HICK¥.AN: - and that has t'o be dealt with and cannot be allowed to pass under any circumstances. HR. SIM-!ONS: Mr. Chairman, the member asked me a question and the answer is yes,I was indeed casting reflection on the Chair and I. thank him for the opportunity •. The Chair has just allowed two members from one side to speak to a point of order and only one from the other side. I 'think that is disgraceful and I am prepared to say so. If the Chair is offended it also has my apology for having to say so. MR. HI~.AN: i~r.

Chaiman, it cannot be passed thP.t Pav h., .. .,, There is no conceivable t~ay that this legislature of parliament can ever be allowed to deteriorate to the position where any member9 no matter what the reason, and certainly there was no reason in this case, but reason is not relevant,

:Tove:~ber 17, 197.8 Tape No. 51?2 l~'.- 1 ·MP .• P.IC~A~: can cast reflection on the Chair, and Your Honour has an obligation to deal tnth thnt issue right now in ?recedence over the one that I raised on a ~oint of order. HR. CHAIR!-' .AN: Order, please! My understanding is that the actions - not a ruling because a ruling t~as not made l.v the Chair.

At that point in time it was in the process of ~eing t.tadc, it t·:::>s not mc.cic bec.::use interruptions did occur 1 I mi::;h:: point out- but t~1e actions of t!1e C!1air have been called into serious question, that the Chair is not being impartial in its handling of the Committee. Nm~ clearly this puts the Chair in an impossible position. It would nuU~e the Co~ttee inoperative because presumably the Chairman does have a function here; or the House would not see fit to put a person in that position. The Chairman does have a function.

If the Chs.i=an is not accepted by the Colillllittee, and t!tat means both sides by the Committee, clearly the Committee cannot function. \-lith that in mind I 1vould therefore ask the hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (l!r. Sit:nnons) if he would withdraw unequivocally any imputations along the lines I have just centioned anci of course if that can.•ot be done clearly the Committee would have to take another action. The hon. member for nurgeo - Bay d 1 Espoir. :':R. SIJ.!l·!ONS: Mr. Chairman, I made an observation about t·~het had taken place.

I think the records s!tot,• t!tat tuo rrom one side spoke at:d :me from the other side spoke. I then recorded my disaffection with that sequence of events. 1·1R. CHAIRNAN: Order, please! If the hon. member ;,.fll permit me? I am afraid that my options are extremely limited here. The Chair has been reflected upon and I just have to ask that eithP.r that reflection be withdratm or I have to take a.-.other action. So t;hether word of explanation afterwards ·.;ould be in order a.'ld therefore be J)ermittcd by the Chair I cannot say at this moment. All I can say

:rove:::'Jer 17, 1978 Tape ~~o. 5192 ;']., a-:AIPMAH: is that the Chair is limited in •.:hat it can do. It can just accept withdrawal or it has to tcL-:c another action. N~t - 2 !!R. si:!lrONS: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir. !1r. Chairman, without equivocation I 'dthc!ral<T any suggestion of any reflections on the C~1air. And my co=ent,if I may be per.;litted,' is that not only the C:tair, Sir, bu:: I too am put in a very embarrassing positi.on by the l·.~lnister of Justice '~ho keeps suggesting to the Chair that such reflections have been made. He may think they are made.

I made none and if there is any l!R. HI CKHAl~: You admitted you made it. ~1R.. SIHHONS: No. ± ac!mitted I uas very disgruntled about ;,•hat ~appened ar.ci I am, but I \Jithdraw. :-ra. CR.t·J:r .. NA!~: Order, please! :·:y un:lcrs tanding is that any reflections on the Cheir in its handline of Committee have been 'lithdra\·1 unequivocally and the Chair certainly accepts it. I think at this point, to clarify matters, I might :nake a brief statement.

When a point of order is raised it assists the Chair immeasurably if the actual matter is pointed to .very quickly rather thar_ <Ul expl12nation or an elaboration on tn"' ,uatter is ra:!.sed. So if·a point of order comes up the actual matter that is out of or dar should be stRted very briefly. At thet point in t"ime it is t~e prerogative of t~e Chair to :1ear Rrgument from members, both siues of the House.

It is left then to the discretion of the Chair >rhether these arguments •rill be heard, firstly; secondly, to ''hat extent they ~dll be heard: and finally, uhet:1er the Chalr no•' feels itself in possession of enough information to make a ruling. :;ow that may come after no arguments a=c ~eard, it may come after one argu.'!lent is heard, it nay come after an argument heard on both sides, it may come after a preponderance of argument is ~ear~ 'Jh ens 'l:l.:!e as ':l~posed to the other, but at some point in time the r.hai~an does 0ecice he is in rossesGion of enough info~aticn

- 3 ·-r•~ .. CH.\I?~:,\1:: :!.n rcso.rd to a I' oint of order t'l ·~.:.::e a r~li.n~. I just ilrinz that to t:1e ne~br"!rs• at~e:.1tion anJ. thi3 is the e.ctioP.. I t-.ras .taking at t~e ti.!)e·. !1ou zetting beck to tha point of order, if I can recall :!.t i~

:·ovet:ber 17th. , 1:' 78 Ta~e 51'??. ;'l\i ·- 1 : :r;. C!L\Ir\l 'Al!: it in detail,that the point of Circler ,,,as raise~ b:r t!1e hon. nember for !·'ount Scio (!'r. :Jinsor) in regards to the matter of the use of the 1rnrd '\)uppet 1 • I thin!-.

I can handle this one · of t1•o o1ays · 1 can take the information given me,that is,that the Hord uas used previo•.1sly and ruled out of order in·. a very similiar context ,and I am afraid that if I were challenget: on th.::1t :;: would have to go heck to the record to mal!:e sure that the context· I·Tas the same -I can either do it the>.t way, or I could say that I IYill take it under advisement so as to be able to bring in a ruling that is based in fact.

At this point I ~•ould ask the hon. member for }~ount Scio does he wish to press t~is point ;~ow before going any further? floes he Hish to ;:>ress his poir.t of orrler? JR. HI:lSOR: Nr. Chairman, it ·haf put me ·in a difficult situation.! certainly on behalf of my constituents of Hount Scio do not "'ant it to ·be on record or assumed by the public that I em being a puppet for any reason. C!!AI?!!llll: no I understand the hon. member would like to have t!1e pc::.nt of order -reso·l~ed? · ;)R • l-iiNSOn : Yes, !·1r. Chairn.an. liR.

CHAIPJ·!.tL·I: The po-int of ">:der therefore is before the Chair and I '"ould inform the t::ol!ll!!ittee that I think it is hest if I took the point of order under advisement and I IYill b'!.'ing in a ruling as quickly as possi'!.>le. !!on. Leader of the Opposition. Thank you, Sir.

Hhile Your lionour is considering t•hether the 1-ror~ 'puppet' as applying to a person who supports the government is out of order as compared to characterizing somebody, I believe my hon. colleague for LaPoile :(;!r, Neary) as a puppet of someone outside the llouse 1tYhether those t"o t:lin'gs are the sellt':!, Sir, I t-1111 refrain fro::: usinr, the 1-ron\ 'puppet 1 and say that in his slavish cevotion , !1:1 3

'1ov~_;-l;,er 17th., 197£. Tape Sl~J !)l·i - 2 ~·:?. • 1~. N. F.OHE: unthinking 1 slavish clevotion to the Premier and to the party as Chaiman of the PC caucus. !le ·got together t-Tith .t!:l.e Pre111ier and the other members o-f the Committee,o!rviously,conspired to _scuttle the hon. member for l!urgeo - Bay d 1 Espoir (Hr. Simmons) because ne nas clone such a good job in exposing t~rongdoing, skulduggery underhanc!ed­ ness and t-rhatever adjectives or nouns the F.oget 1 s Th~sa·1rus ma:· yield on the subject of general wrongdoing in govern~ent.

This hon. gentleman on our side of the House did ~-too good a job, :-:r.

Chairman, and therefore in an unprecedented Action never before done in the •·history of this House the rnel!'hers of the Committee.acting on ·the instructions of the Premier, confirmed by the Premier in public statements afterwards, 'It t~ill not be Simmons', he said, smarting under the blows that the Committee had inflicted on him as Premier and his colleagues under the Chairmanship of the hon. member, the Chairnan of the Public Accounts Comcittee,they decided to get rid of him. ilm~, Sir, if that is not the worst -violation of all principle affect!ng this :rouse since 1949, Sir, I do not know what is.

To try to destroy a Committee which is the watchdog of the· government, which is follo~dng up on the work of the Auditor l';eneral, uho is the servant of this House,to destroy tnat Committee by getting l!id of the Chai=.an t~ho is a member of the Opposition'.-Sir· .. that is the Norst, single worst action ever taken by a government into rey mind since Gonfederation. It is a blatant use of partisan politics for a tvro~g purpose. We have seen other e::amples Hhich have come clo~e.~e ~on.

Vinister of Touris111 admitted quite freely hefore the Pu:.lic Accounts Committee or a segment of it that they broke the Public Tenner Act as a government and AS ministers solely and purely to 1-1in votes in the Ferrylancl by-election. He even bragged ahout it.

;.:ovember 17th., 1?7r. ''?. . S !'~}~ONS : memher for Ferryl~~d. :m. ·H.:T. !l.OHE: Tape 5193 To try to defeat the present To try to defeat the present member for Ferry land, that is right, ~~!10 is nm~ there right behind the Premier. .~!R. STI~!ONS: ·now hard must he swallow every morning? f'!t. H .~l. ROHE: ~ight behind t~e Premier, If I Here the Pre•ni~r I 1•oulrl have bim to one side or in front. I would get a mirror. I ~~ould .get a rear view mirror if I were the Premier. NR. V.N. ROHE: T~~o,one on either side just in· case he happt?.ns to tvink. Re t~an ts to keep his eye all the time on that hon. member.

November 17, 1978, Tape 5194, Pa0e 1 -- aob ·MR. W.N.ROWE: Two rear-view mirrors. As a matter of fact, if I were the Premier looking after my own skin, I would be sitting where the hon. member is and have him up there. I would be behind him watching the back of his neck. MR. SIMMONS: better Premier 1 too. MR. W.N.ROWE: And he would make a much That may be so. I will not comment on that. But I would not have that hon. member between my shoulder blades, Sir, I would not. But then the Premier probably is brave.

Anyway, in order to try to defeat that hon. member down in Ferryland district, the government comes out and admits publicly that they broke the Public Tender Act, blatantly and knowlingly broke the law of this Province.

I would say they probably had good legal advice before breaking it to say, took, do not mind the Public Tender Act, we put this across, we heralded this as a great reform in government spending practices, we put this across as something which was going to bring honesty back into government spending and so on, we trumpeted that far and wide, but we took an elementary precaution when we were drafting this in the Department of Justice- headed by the present minister- we took an elementary precaution, we made sure that the act had no teeth, we made sure that there were no penalties in the act so that we could break it to our heart' s content and nobody would eve.r have to answer for it.

MR. SIMMONS: Thank God for George Macaulay. MR. W.N.ROWE: of.Justice. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Macaulay, the Deputy Minister The very guy who said the act was stunned was the Deputy Minister for the department. MR. W.N.ROWE: Was the Assistant Deputy Minister at that time.

November 17, 1978, Tape 5194, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: And he will answer for that because certain questions will be put to him and the minister as time goes on as to the role they played in that. But a Public Tender Act broken knowlingly and blatantly by the government and the Minister of Hiqhwavs,· solely for the purpose of getting votes. If that is not the worst example of political blackmail and bribery combined in the one ball of waY. that I ever heard of, I do know of an example, Mr. Chairman. But that was the second worse breach of principle by this government since it came into power. MR. SIMMONS: While you are on 'Morgan' do not forget what he said he woul