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June 19, 2003

37th Parliament, 4th Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2003-Jun-19 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Thursday 19 June 2003 Jeudi 19 juin 2003

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

MINISTRY OF CITIZENSHIP

AND CULTURE AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LE MINISTÈRE DES AFFAIRES

CIVIQUES ET CULTURELLES

PUBLIC SECTOR

ENERGY EFFICIENCY ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR L'EFFICACITÉ ÉNERGÉTIQUE DU SECTEUR PUBLIC

MINISTRY OF CITIZENSHIP

AND CULTURE AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LE MINISTÈRE DES AFFAIRES

CIVIQUES ET CULTURELLES

PUBLIC SECTOR

ENERGY EFFICIENCY ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003

SUR L'EFFICACITÉ ÉNERGÉTIQUE

DU SECTEUR PUBLIC

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

SAME-SEX MARRIAGE

PETER GZOWSKI INVITATIONAL

THUNDER BAY EXPRESSWAY

HERITAGE MILTON

HYDRO RATES

SUDBURY REGIONAL HOSPITAL

ELECTROVAYA

BEEF PRODUCERS

STEPHEN CHANDLER

KAWARTHA HIGHLANDS

SIGNATURE SITE PARK ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR LE PARC

DE LA RÉGION CARACTÉRISTIQUE

DES HAUTES-TERRES DE KAWARTHA

KAWARTHA HIGHLANDS

SIGNATURE SITE PARK ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR LE PARC

DE LA RÉGION CARACTÉRISTIQUE

DES HAUTES-TERRES DE KAWARTHA

VISITORS

ANNUAL REPORT,

OFFICE OF THE OMBUDSMAN

DEFERRED VOTES

ONTARIO HOME PROPERTY

TAX RELIEF FOR SENIORS ACT, 2003

LOI DE 2003 SUR L'ALLÉGEMENT

DE L'IMPÔT FONCIER RÉSIDENTIEL

POUR LES PERSONNES ÂGÉES

DE L'ONTARIO

THE RIGHT CHOICES FOR

EQUITY IN EDUCATION ACT

(BUDGET MEASURES), 2003 /

LOI DE 2003

SUR LES BONS CHOIX POUR L'ÉQUITÉ

EN MATIÈRE D'ÉDUCATION

(MESURES BUDGÉTAIRES)

VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

CHILDREN'S SERVICES

GOVERNMENT'S RECORD

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

FAMILY RESPONSIBILITY OFFICE

ENERGY CONTRACTS

POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

TRANSPORTATION PLANNING

CONTAMINATION IN PORT COLBORNE

MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITY

CANCER SCREENING

LANDFILL

ITER FUSION PROJECT

SCHOOL POOLS

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

PETITIONS

LONDON HEALTH SCIENCES CENTRE

BENEFITS FOR RETIRED WORKERS

ITER FUSION PROJECT

HOME CARE

EDUCATION FUNDING

SENIORS' PROPERTY TAX CREDIT

EDUCATION FUNDING

BENEFITS FOR RETIRED WORKERS

SENIORS' PROPERTY TAX CREDIT

LONG-TERM CARE

HIGHWAY 407

LONG-TERM CARE

ORDERS OF THE DAY

THE RIGHT CHOICES ACT

(BUDGET MEASURES), 2003 /

LOI DE 2003

SUR LES BONS CHOIX

(MESURES BUDGÉTAIRES)

MEMBER'S COMMENTS

Thursday 19 June 2003 Jeudi 19 juin 2003

The House met at 1000.

Prayers.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

MINISTRY OF CITIZENSHIP

AND CULTURE AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LE MINISTÈRE DES AFFAIRES

CIVIQUES ET CULTURELLES

Mr Beaubien moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 54,

An Act to amend the Ministry of Citizenship and Culture Act / Projet de loi 54, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur le ministère des Affaires civiques et

culturelles.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): The member has up to 10 minutes for his presentation.

Mr Marcel Beaubien (Lambton-Kent-Middlesex): It certainly is a pleasure for me to introduce this bill this morning. The bill would require the

Ministry of Citizenship and Culture to establish a program to provide information, upon request, to a municipality or a charitable institution about constructing a tribute to honour persons who are

or were residents of Ontario and who served in the armed services of Canada in any war outside Canada during the 20th century. If a body constructs such a memorial, the ministry is required to

remit a scroll of recognition to those persons whom the memorial honours and whom the ministry considers to come within the description of persons who may properly be honoured.

On June 12, I had the opportunity to attend a book launch in Wallaceburg. The title of the book is No Return Ticket, and it's written by Al Mann. Basically, this

book recognizes the veterans who lost their lives in the Wallaceburg area during the world wars. Today I want to talk about the veterans who fought in wars but had a return ticket to come back to

Canada, to come back to Ontario -- not that I want to forget the ones who gave up their lives, but I think over the past number of years we have somehow left the ones who came back to Ontario or to

Canada somewhat behind.

The impetus for this bill came from Gert McClure, a resident in my riding, the community of Wallaceburg. Gert came upon this idea a while back. She was driving

on the main street of Wallaceburg and saw two young teenagers skateboarding on the cenotaph in Wallaceburg. She stopped her car and had a discussion with the two young fellows who were

skateboarding and asked them whether they recognized or were realizing what they were accomplishing by skateboarding on the cenotaph. One of the young fellows told Gert that his grandfather had

fought in the Second World War and had lost his life. So they looked on the monument, on the cenotaph and, lo and behold, the name of his grandfather was there. However, the second young fellow

said to Gert, "My grandfather also fought in the Second World War." They searched for his grandfather's name on the cenotaph but it was not there.

At that point, Gert reflected and asked the young fellow, "I don't know why his name is not on this cenotaph, but did he lose his life during the Second World

War?" The young fellow said, "No. My grandfather came back to Wallaceburg and was very involved in the community." So Gert said, "It doesn't seem to be fair that somebody who participated in a war

for a number of years, a number of months or whatever the length of the stay was would not be recognized."

Consequently, she took it upon herself to introduce an idea to the local Legion branch and she called the name of her project "Rock of Honour," whereby you would

honour all veterans who fought in wars. Technically, when we really think about it, we have to realize that many of the young men and women who fought, whether it was in World War I or World War

II, came back. Some of them came back with injuries, some with permanent injuries, and some of them were lucky enough to come back without any injuries. We have to look at the fact that many of

these young men and women came back to their communities in Ontario, in Canada, and were very involved within their own communities. They may have been involved on the local council, on the local

hospital board or with the local Legion. But many were also involved with volunteer work, besides maintaining their full-time jobs. If we look back to the early 1950s and 1960s, arenas were built

in communities by many volunteers. I'm sure if we were to assess the types of volunteers, we'd find that many of them had some war experience during the Second World War.

We also have to look at the fact that some of them may be dead now and some may be in retirement homes or nursing homes. But I'd like to zero in on a friend of

mine, who passed away a couple of years ago, who fought in the Second World War and lived the rest of his life with shrapnel in his body. His name was George Menzies. George came back after the war

and became an Anglican minister, very involved in the community, very involved with sports teams, involved with the local hospital board, and later on in life he became a canon in the Anglican

Church. Sometimes we forget that even though we recognize the fact that Canon Menzies was a veteran, there was really no permanent or acknowledgement that he had fought in the war. On November, 11

we always commemorate the passing of many of the veterans, but today there is really nothing to remember George by. Having a rock of honour, a wall of honour or whatever you want to call it, is a

means of recognizing many of these young men and women in the Second World War, who probably gave some of the best years of their lives and have now passed away with no recognition. This bill would

give them some type of recognition.

In the community of Peterborough, the local Legion has started a project, also called the Wall of Honour, to recognize some of the veterans who fought in the

world wars. I'm looking for comments from my colleagues in this House about ways and means to improve this bill to make sure that we cover all the veterans. Although I'm suggesting the veterans of

the wars of the 20th century, I'm sure some of my colleagues will have some other suggestions.

The bottom line is that we have to realize that many people gave their lives and paid the utmost price during the war -- with their lives, in other words. By the

end of the Second World War, 45,000 people would sacrifice their lives for our freedom, but equally important is that 55,000 would be wounded defending our country and our freedom. I think we owe

it to them, because most of them are getting to an age where there is not much chance for them to have recognition. Like I said, many of them are in residential and nursing homes.

But all we want to do is what Gert wanted to accomplish. She wanted to do something because, as I pointed out, we lose more and more of our veterans with each

passing day. She recognized the urgency of doing something now. She was determined to construct a tribute to all the Wallaceburg veterans by inscribing their names on the large stones at the

Wallaceburg cenotaph site. To date, her research has revealed the names of more than 900 Wallaceburg citizens who fought in various wars during the 20th century. As I said, she wants to call this

project The Rock of Honour.

In conclusion, that is why I have prepared this bill and asked for my colleagues' thoughtful consideration and speedy approval. As a government, we have a

province-wide responsibility to not only recognize and pay tribute to our veterans, but to play an active role in assisting municipalities or interested community organizations that desire to do

what Gert McClure is doing in Wallaceburg. That's why I'm seeking everybody's support here today.

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): I'm pleased to join the debate and lend my support to the member for his bill. I assume it's been run

through the ministry and that they've provided their support, in terms of it being workable and practical. I just make that assumption.

I'm very lucky. I was born in 1940 and was obviously five years old when the Second World War ended. I've been very lucky in my life in that I have not been

faced with that very difficult decision to volunteer and head off to a conflict. I often reflect on the stress those people must have gone through, particularly those who were in a combat zone or

were heading into a combat zone. I think we know in our own personal lives, when we face minor danger, how stressful that is. I can't imagine, day after day, literally living in fear of your life.

All those people made the conscious decision to voluntarily put themselves in that position. They knew what they were going to face. All those who headed off to World War II were familiar with what

happened in World War I and the dangers they were going to face. The member is right: often we recognize those who died in the conflict and forget that those who were participants in the conflict

suffered and made enormous sacrifice also. I think he mentioned 55,000 wounded in the Second World War. Even if you weren't wounded, you put yourself through years of considerable stress and

strain. I do think those people deserve the community recognition.

The second reason is that memories begin to dim over time. We can slowly lose the memory of the enormous conflict that those world wars presented and the need to

put enormous energy into preventing similar conflicts in the future. As we look back on both those world wars, I think the world community could say, "If we'd done certain things, we could have

avoided those conflicts." But if our memories dim over time of the price we pay for major global conflict, we don't put the time, the energy, and dare I say the resources into trying to prevent

them, to see them bubbling and to deal with them.

I think that the bill has merit; I am supporting the bill. I do not have recommendations on how it can be substantially improved, because the bill covers the

things that appear to be important. It covers the mechanism whereby a community can proceed with a memorial. It provides the direction for finding the names and addresses of the people who were

involved in it.

Just to summarize, I don't think there's a veteran left in the Legislature now. My colleague Gilles Morin was the last veteran we had here; he was a veteran of

the Korean War, as I recall. You can see that as time goes by, the first-hand experience begins to diminish. The Legislature has always been fortunate to have individuals here who had first-hand

experience with major global conflict, who could bring to the Legislature and the people of Ontario that first-hand experience. As memories dim, we need to do what we can so that we always remember

those who died, those who were wounded and those who participated. I repeat, I've regarded myself as a very lucky person. I've grown up in an era with relatively little of that sort of pressure on

my life. I can't imagine what it would have been like at the age of 18, or in some cases even 17 years old, to head off for five years -- and as Mr Beaubien mentioned, often some of the best years

of one's life -- to put yourself in harm's way, in a period of constant stress and strain. I do believe that even for those who were not wounded in the conflict it must have had a very profound

impact on the rest of their lives.

As I say, I support the piece of legislation. I hope the Legislature passes it and that many of our communities around Ontario will take advantage of it.

Mr Toby Barrett (Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant): We are assembled here today to speak on a private member's bill that proposes to allow the Ministry

of Citizenship and Culture to create the framework for municipalities and charitable institutions to recognize those Ontarians who served in 20th century conflicts outside of Canada through

memorials.

When asked to speak to this bill, it occurred to me it's a humbling experience to think about those individuals who have participated directly in military

conflicts. The closest I've come to understanding that experience, apart from a brief stint in the militia, 56th Field Regiment, is through the melancholic faces of veterans and families on

Remembrance Day. As has been indicated earlier, how fortunate we are here in Canada and in Ontario to never have experienced war on this continent during one of history's most bloody centuries.

I would be remiss, this being Loyalist Day, if I didn't mention the sacrifice of United Empire Loyalists in the late 1700s and those who fought in 1763.

Descendants of those who fought with Joseph Brant in the 1763 battle, during what was the British conquest of North America, reside in my riding. We should continue to recognize valiant Canadian

fighters who defended our land during the War of 1812. For that reason, and recognizing these past conflicts in previous centuries, I would like to see this legislation expanded to encompass

battles in previous centuries in our country.

In the 20th century, Canada was indeed blessed. Can you imagine, while Europe was cut in two by a muddy eight-foot trench, while bombs rained over ships, while

the threat of nuclear war loomed, while the desert sun shone down on fighters, we in Canada never experienced the destructive effect of battle on our land here?

Can you imagine being one of those combatants who experienced the fight, the whiz of gunfire, the flash of an explosion or, worse, the death of a fellow soldier,

a fellow pilot, a fellow sailor? Any of these occurrences must be among the worst an individual can experience. Can you imagine the difficulty of living with those memories and going through the

horror once one returns to the normalcy of family life at home?

The tradition certainly has been to recognize and honour the war dead. We think of the cenotaphs that are present in every municipality across this province.

However, the question before us today is whether or not to allow the ministry to facilitate municipalities and charitable organizations in recognizing those who survived war.

In my opinion, this bill is a good one. The intention is honourable, and its creation is necessary, in my view. I firmly believe that it's important for us to

recognize in an important way the combatants who survived war and to thank them and their families in a more permanent way. Again, if a community wants to raise a monument, a plaque or a statue to

the survivors, the House and our ministry should encourage that to happen.

I do wish to address further the content of the bill. I believe there are some additions that could be made to recognize not only those who fought in the 20th

century but in previous centuries in other battles. I believe the definition should be extended to allow for assistance in honouring veterans from wars going back to 1763, as I mentioned; 1776; the

War of 1812, an international war in which Upper Canadians fought, which led to the disarmament of the Canadian-American border.

I think it's important to recognize the efforts of militiamen who fought against what was perceived as a national threat: the Fenian raids -- raids that

stretched from New Brunswick to Upper Canada in the 1860s. You see memorials to those who fought in the Fenian raids in Ottawa.

Again, battles in both Upper Canada and the United States were fought, and those who came back, those who survived, were never recognized to the extent of those

who were killed in battle. Although the values and morals of those bygone eras may be different today, it doesn't lessen the importance of Ontarian combatants' contribution to conflict and, as Mr

Beaubien has indicated, their contribution after the wars within their communities.

War has a way of both dividing citizens and creating a sense of national pride. We, the public, are reminded of it through these monuments. We feel this is very

important. Although there are no living Canadian veterans of the Fenian raids, the War of 1812, the South African War, the Spanish Civil War -- half the Canadians who fought there did not return in

1939. I suggest we recognize these people, we recognize the merchant marines, nurses and civilians who also played a part.

I'm very pleased to support this bill. I hope its parameters will be extended to include that to which I have referred today.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I want to indicate at the very beginning that I intend to support the bill that the member has put forward.

I think it is most appropriate that we recognize those in two cases: first, those who have made the supreme sacrifice of their lives fighting in wars overseas to protect freedom, liberty and our

recognized way of life; and also that we recognize -- and I know the member would like this as well in his bill, but certainly in the general speech -- people who have come back from those wars and

have served our country as well.

There are a few times during the year when the Royal Canadian Legion and the country have special services that all of us endeavour to attend. The greatest

focus, of course, is on Remembrance Day, when the veterans gather along with members of the public, elected representatives and others to remember those who have fought in wars in years gone by. We

think mostly of the First World War, the Second World War and the Korean War as the major wars, but there have been other conflicts in the world in which Canadian soldiers have been involved.

I think if people hearken back to many years ago, they will remember that the crowds were very big. One of the reasons is that the people who had come back from

the war were with us. Today, those who served in the Second World War, for instance, would now be in their 70s, at the very least, and perhaps older, of course. Those who served in the Korean War

are in their 60s and 70s for the most part.

It was a very difficult time. I think what a lot of people forget -- and our former mayor, Joe McCaffrey, said this on an occasion when he was speaking at our

local cenotaph. He said that what a lot of people don't realize is that we are paying tribute and remembering very young people. Because the veterans age as all of us age, we see veterans as fairly

elderly individuals today. But when they went overseas, these were often people in their late teens and early 20s, who were looking forward to a life ahead of them -- families, good jobs and an

opportunity to enjoy all of the amenities that life brings for us. That was brought to an abrupt end on so many occasions in times of war.

People in Europe -- and I think other parts of the world -- tend to recognize Canadian soldiers and their own even more than we do, and I think they do so

because they were directly affected. Their countries were invaded, their countries were occupied, and many of them are extremely grateful to Canadian soldiers who went overseas to fight not only

for their own country, Canada, but of course on behalf of the countries that were being invaded by those who wanted to impose an entirely different kind of life and regime on those individuals.

In each of our communities it is important that we remember the people from those communities who have served. In St Catharines we have memorials to those who

have served in the past. In the old town of Merritton, in the old town of Port Dalhousie, of course in St Catharines itself, in Thorold and other areas there are memorials. Many of us would have

attended the Decoration Day services the first Sunday in June of this year, where the graves, in our case in Victoria Lawn Cemetery, are decorated with Canadian flags and where we once again

remember and recall and honour those who have died.

On every one of those occasions, in addition to those who have died, we speak of those who have come back, often scarred in more ways than one, often with

injuries which are of a physical nature that stay with those individuals -- and some of those individuals are in veterans' hospitals -- but also the psychological scars that wars bring to

people.

There is often a lament, I think a justifiable lament, that younger people who have never experienced war and who see war as something in the distant past do not

have as good a knowledge of the role that Canadian soldiers, sailors and air force personnel have played in the past, and of the men and women who were involved in the medical personnel -- the

merchant navy, for instance -- who suffered grievously during the war as well, and of others who in any way helped in the war. I think it's important that we continue to remember them. A memorial

in a community, the names of those listed in the community and the story behind them, is exceedingly important.

I attended another Legion ceremony on May 30, where they were honouring members of the Royal Canadian Legion. Many of those people now are well advanced in their

years. Some are showing indications of age, but also of injury that was incurred during the war. So whenever we can pay tribute to them, we do so very nicely. There's one time when we are

non-partisan in this Legislature, and that is the Thursday before Remembrance Day, or the last day the House sits, at least, before Remembrance Day, when a representative of each party gets up and

speaks of those individuals. We walk along with them in the streets, and very often we see that they are walking more slowly now, but they're very proud individuals who have served. Often you see

tears in their eyes because they themselves can recall the great difficulties that war has brought to them.

One of the most moving scenes as well, I must say, is the Silver Cross mother coming forward who has lost young people in war -- usually they were young when

they died in war -- and the brothers and sisters and nieces and nephews and sons and daughters and spouses and so on who on that occasion have a special feeling of sadness, but also pride in the

fact that their loved one went to serve on behalf of our democratic way of life. I certainly want to pay tribute to them.

The member has brought forward a bill which is most appropriate. Having the Ministry of Citizenship and Culture involved in this exercise I think is extremely

important. We should be assisting municipalities and charitable institutions in constructing memorials in honour of persons who are or were residents of Ontario and who served in the Armed Forces

of Canada in any wars outside Canada during the 20th century. That encompasses a lot of people, and I think it's important that we do encompass those individuals in this particular piece of

legislation.

It's a word of thanks from all of us in this Legislature, a word of thanks from all the people in our communities to those who made a sacrifice, who left their

families, who left their friends, who were in very difficult circumstances, terrible weather conditions, being fired at by armaments, sometimes being prisoners of war and not always very well

treated as prisoners of war, and seeing the death and devastation that is part of war.

Paying tribute to those individuals is exceedingly important. We do so in our national war memorials; we do so in our communities. This is yet another step that

can help individual communities and charitable organizations to thank and pay tribute to and remember those who have served in war and particularly those who have made the supreme sacrifice. I

think this bill is worthy of support by all members.

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): I appreciate the opportunity this morning to speak to this bill. It's always an honour to follow the member

for St Catharines, who has served long and honourably in this place, and to also say that we in this caucus will be supporting this bill, of course, because it's a bill that rightfully honours the

efforts and sometimes the ultimate sacrifice of many of our veterans, our seniors who went to war on our behalf to protect freedoms and those things that we value and often take for granted in the

society we live in today. So we will be supporting this bill.

However, my comments won't be so much targeted at the bill itself, because I think it's a very simple bill and really speaks for itself. The member presenting it

made his case, and others will as well. My hope this morning is that the member, in presenting this bill and obviously being connected to veterans in his own jurisdiction and his own Legions, will

also be talking to his caucus members and his government about the condition that many of these veterans, having fought for their country and returned, now have to live in: the poverty that many of

them experience, the difficulty they're having in finding appropriate and safe housing, not to speak of the issue of health care, which for many of them, and I would guess probably all of them, is

a huge task and undertaking and challenge in the world we live in today.

So I think it would behoove this government to investigate across the province the situation that seniors and in particular, in this instance, veterans find

themselves in as they try to live a life that reflects the sacrifice they made at those times in our history when they had to be counted on, and were, and stepped up to the line and put their lives

on the line, some of them not to come home but many to come home and to now experience the kind of difficulty that they are experiencing in finding the very basics of life so that they can live in

dignity.

That's not to forget the difficulty that the organizations that often speak for veterans have as well in keeping their facilities open and providing the services

they provide. I know in my own community we have a very vibrant and active Legion which every year on Remembrance Day puts on a wonderful ceremony. They gather the whole community at the community

centre at Memorial Gardens -- and named Memorial Gardens connected to this -- to remember those who passed away and those who fought in those wars.

I have to tell you, in talking with them after the celebration and memorial and in talking with them in my office at times when they come in to speak to me about

issues that they confront in trying to keep their facility open, they are having a very difficult time and are looking for assistance and relief to that end. They would love this government to come

and sit down, talk with them and develop a plan that they could all agree would give them the kind of support and comfort they need to continue to do the work that they do, so they don't have to

spend so much of their time fundraising and worrying about the very existence of their halls, for example, and could spend the kind of time they want to spend looking after each other, looking

after the veterans and providing the kind of support that veterans need.

I remember in 1995, when this government took over, the Legion had been talking to me for a couple of years about a housing complex in their back parking lot

which would provide affordable housing to some of the veterans they saw coming to the hall every day so that they could be close, could be looked after, could have some services provided, such as

food services etc. We had actually come to a point where we had agreed and had allocated some affordable housing units to the Legion to build, but that got caught by the government when it

cancelled all of the not-for-profit and affordable housing projects at that particular point in time. So the spot that that housing unit was going to go up on lies vacant and empty today, as we

speak, because this government hasn't found a way to honour the commitment we made to those veterans to actually build that facility.

I was in Wawa on Tuesday, speaking to the leadership of that community about some of the economic challenges they're facing, particularly their inability to deal

with the astronomical rise in hydro costs. As we pulled in and parked across the street from the Legion Hall in Wawa, I was told that it's in trouble, that it's having difficulty, financially,

trying to keep the lights on and that in fact if things continue the way they are, it may end up closing.

I remember, as a young boy in that community, that the Legion was the heart, the centre of the community. On a Friday night particularly the parents, the adults,

who worked in the mines and contributed to the economy of the community would be downstairs having a few drinks, celebrating and getting together as friends and neighbours, and we teenagers would

be upstairs having a dance. It was the centre, the social heart, of that community. It stands today on the precipice of extinction because this government is doing nothing about the escalating cost

of hydro, amongst other things.

I will be supporting this bill today and my caucus will be supporting it. I think it's the right thing to do. Any time we can honour and support our veterans in

this way, we should do it. However, there is a lot more to be done than that in the everyday life of veterans, in some very practical and common-sense ways, to make sure they have an opportunity to

live in dignity, to carry themselves through the community with the respect they're due and to know that they have housing, that they have income, that their pensions are protected and that they

have the health care they so obviously need and will need as they get older, and more and more unstable in that perspective.

There is one other issue, if I had a bit more time to go on about it, that I would like to speak to the government about, but they don't seem to be too

interested. The only member of the government who seems to have any interest at all is Mr Murdoch, because his Legion has come to him, as my Legion has come to me. It's around the issue of small

raffles, lotteries and 50-50 draws that Legions used to have. In many instances they became the only source of income that some of them had to cover the cost of their facilities, to keep the lights

on, to be able to buy some flowers or to support a member at a time of the death of a spouse, or sickness in the hospital.

This government has tightened the regulations on how you manage and run lotteries, raffles and 50-50 draws, to the point now where most of the Legions are

getting out of them. They're not doing it any more -- not to speak of the bingos they can't run any more -- because they can't funnel the money they make into the things they have been mandated to

do through their charitable status and that historically they've always done.

Today, in saying that I will support this bill and in saying on behalf of my caucus that we will support this bill, I also say that we have a ton more to do if

we're actually going to honour the effort and the sacrifice of our veterans and make sure they are in fact allowed to live in the kind of dignity that their service warrants.

I'll leave a little time for my colleague from Niagara Centre to speak.

The Acting Speaker: Further debate?

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): Of course I'm going to debate this bill. In the interim, Mr Beaubien can organize his speakers' list, if

indeed there's one. People should want to speak to it. It's a good piece of legislation, for Pete's sake. Of course we endorse celebrating, commemorating and paying tribute to those women and men

who, in the service of our country, but as significantly in the service of humankind -- because Canadians have played that role as military personnel -- demonstrate courage, commitment and indeed,

as has been noted and should never not be noted, make the supreme sacrifice.

This last Decoration Day we're reminded that we'll be there again on Remembrance Day, revisiting our communities. I'm very fortunate to represent communities

that are part of small-town Ontario, and small-town Ontario contributed more than its fair share of young women and men during those bloody and tragic wars: the First World War, the Second World

War, the Korean War -- to call it a "conflict" is to diminish the role that Canadians and so many others played in it -- and yes, the war in Vietnam, and conflicts since then where Canadians have

played an admirable but no less dangerous role as peacekeeping forces, and continue to.

I say this to Mr Beaubien: I want this bill to pass today. I appreciate we are pressed for time in that this Legislature in all likelihood will rise on June 26,

next Thursday. Of course, we'll be coming back in September, but I put to Mr Beaubien, and perhaps in his response he could respond to the query as to why -- and it's not a criticism -- the bill

restricts recognition by virtue of memorials to armed services personnel of the 20th century. Again, this isn't a criticism. It may well have been simply a reflection of the time frame in which the

bill was drafted, but we still have armed services personnel out there. We have them out there today, this very day as we speak, putting their lives on the line in the service of their country and

of humankind.

The city of Welland has a great cenotaph in Chippewa Park. We gather there for Remembrance Day ceremonies. Thorold, in its park a few blocks from Thorold city

hall, and a few blocks from the Legion hall, has a cenotaph that commemorates young residents of Thorold -- because they were young. It's old men who start wars and it's young women and men who

fight them. No less great is the modest memorial in Port Robinson just outside the Port Robinson volunteer fire hall. It's oh, so modest, but oh, so grand nonetheless. Similarly, legionnaires and

veterans, their children and grandchildren and, yes, great-grandchildren march from the Merritton Legion Hall to the Merritton cenotaph.

I want to go one further, Mr Beaubien. I believe we should embark on a province-wide campaign to give those communities that want to upgrade their memorials the

resources to permit them to upgrade and update their memorials: those cairns, those cenotaphs, those monuments. I believe taxpayers in this province, and I'm one of them just like everybody else,

would be pleased to see some small amount of their tax dollars invested in these permanent commemorations of the courage, dedication and sacrifice of decades and generations of young Canadians who

have served their country and humankind.

As we debate this, let's all commit ourselves to ensuring that we as taxpayers guarantee that our armed forces personnel today, in the year 2003, have the

resources and tools to safely and effectively do the dangerous jobs they're called upon to do. Let's stop sending our Canadian military personnel into some of the most dangerous places in the world

with broken tools and inadequate resources. I believe Canadians support that proposition as well.

I support this legislation and look forward to Mr Beaubien joining in some of the modest amendments I've suggested.

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): It's my pleasure to compliment my friend from Lambton-Kent-Middlesex. Marcel Beaubien is a friend whom I know to be

very genuine and sincere, and this bill speaks very much to the traditions he emulates in his riding, paying respect to those persons who have served their country and brought honour to their

communities, their families and indeed their country. I want to put on the record very clearly that this speaks directly to the kind of person the member from Lambton-Kent-Middlesex really is. In

fact, it speaks to almost all the members in the House here, I would put to you.

It's personal. When I read the explanatory note to Bill 54, it said it all. I'll read it for the record.

"The bill amends the Ministry of Citizenship and Culture Act to require the ministry to establish a program to provide information, upon request, to a

municipality or a charitable institution about constructing a memorial to honour persons who are or were residents of Ontario and who served in the armed services of Canada in any wars outside

Canada during the 20th century. If a body constructs such a memorial, the ministry is required to remit a scroll of recognition to those persons whom the memorial honours and who the ministry

considers come within the description of persons who may properly be honoured."

It's the persons who did survive and whose lives were altered. In many cases, you could speak to members who are older -- our parents, our grandparents and

relatives. I think of how I view the world in my own experience. In closest proximity, I guess, would be my son, Erin Michael O'Toole, who was a captain in the armed forces until just recently. I

think he gets his Canadian decoration, having served as a captain on the Sea King helicopters. He did spend time -- not in helicopters, but certainly when he was training as a navigator -- on the

Hercules, I believe, flying into Bosnia. I have pictures that were taken by some of his friends which really drove home for me the risk to the young men and women on the Sea Kings whom we see in

our newscasts, unfortunately, and the other persons serving our country with some degree of risk to themselves.

It also brings me back in a personal way to the formation that many of those people develop in their service to country. I believe Mr Beaubien talked of his

father, and I reflected back to my family as well, both on my mother's and my father's side, and how that formation in serving their country and the discipline involved in that affected their

lives, mostly positively, but also I'm sure they've had memories and nightmares etc of their time.

Clare Driscoll rose to become a contributor in his community. He was my uncle and has since passed away. He served in the navy. Ray Driscoll also served the

public. In fact, I think I spoke at some length here upon his death. He rose to be reeve and warden and served the county of Peterborough and Otonabee township with some distinction, and indeed

served the province on the Good Roads and other committees that were important at that time.

I also think of my other uncle on my O'Toole side, Alphonse O'Toole, who was quite a brilliant fellow. I believe he got his PhD from the University of Toronto.

In fact, he was a professor. I think he was in the military before he got his PhD. I'm not sure about the sequence there, but he went on to publish several books. I think the discipline or the

sense of responsibility to community, giving service to others and to the country, is really what carried him further to make a contribution. Frank O'Toole, who was the first, I think, in George

Brown College, also was a teacher. I'm not sure if he was a PhD, but I think he was president or at least in senior management at George Brown College. He also served his country in the military,

as an officer.

The point I'm making is that all these people went on for the most part, in a voluntary sense or in a role of community, to serve their country in a broader

sense -- not necessarily in a military sense but in a public role. My father himself did not serve. I think he had, as I've described, brothers who did. When he passed away, my mother married a

fellow who -- actually, one of his legs was blown off in Italy, I think. He was a remarkable guy, with the courage of life. Jack Condon was his name. Marcel, he didn't lose his life, and therefore

he's not mentioned at one of the Remembrance Day celebrations where they read out the scroll of those who gave their lives. I would not in any respect diminish the importance of that contribution,

but the others, specifically Jack Condon, I'm sure had nightmares. In fact, I remember him telling me once that he always felt that his leg was still there, even though it had been blown off by a

grenade or a land mine or something. It certainly affected his life in a real sense, and the others I've described as well.

In my area, I know there was a huge contribution to the Juno Beach memorial. The province's original contribution -- I was talking to people -- was going to be

$100,000 or something like that. On the day of the announcement, Premier Eves changed it to $1 million. He was so moved -- and this is quite a genuine story -- that he changed that amount to $1

million, because it reflected the contribution of Canadians, and the majority came from Ontario, who contributed not just to D-Day but to the defence of freedom and democracy in the world.

All who served should be recognized, be memorialized. I support the member's bill, and I think all of us should take the time to reflect, not just on November

11. As we give our public service and have our names on a plaque someplace in this building, I think the others who have served this country should as well.

Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener Centre): I want to compliment the member from Lambton-Kent-Middlesex for his bill. I think this is one of those

non-partisan bills that everyone should support. I was a little disappointed that a couple of members opposite decided to make a political speech on a bill such as this, which should be totally

non-partisan.

My own father is a veteran of the Second World War. A number of my friends' fathers also fought in the Second World War. Some of them did not come home. A

number of friends' fathers fought in the Korean War, and some of them did not come home. There are innumerable instances of this throughout the country, throughout the province, of people my age

who grew up fatherless. A number of others of us of course view our fathers, even though they came home, as heroes.

There are municipalities throughout the province that, for one reason or another, have not put together a memorial of any type to the veterans who fought in

the wars, whether it be the First World War, the Second World War or the Korean War. I heartily commend the member from Lambton-Kent-Middlesex for having put together this bill in honour of these

people.

The Acting Speaker: The member for Lambton-Kent-Middlesex has two minutes to respond.

Mr Beaubien: First of all, I would like to thank Gert McClure for giving the idea to introduce this bill. I certainly appreciate that. I would

also like to thank the members from Scarborough-Agincourt, Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant, St Catharines, Sault Ste Marie, Niagara Centre, Durham and Kitchener Centre, who spoke on this particular

bill.

A couple of comments. The member from Sault Ste Marie mentioned the government enforcing regulations with regard to lotteries in the Legion. I think if you

check the record, member for Sault Ste Marie, you'll find that the member from Lambton-Kent-Middlesex has been working diligently and very aggressively with regard to this. I do agree with you that

tightening up the regulations on lotteries and Legions is somewhat ludicrous at this point in time.

With some of the comments from the member for Niagara Centre, he was not here when I started my presentation. However, I did ask for input from different

members. With regard to his comments about upgrading the existing memorials or cenotaphs across the province, whereby the provincial government would provide some help, I certainly would support

that. I know that once you introduce a private member's bill that you're not supposed expend government funds, but if the government saw fit to provide the funds somewhere in the future with regard

to upgrading memorials or cenotaphs in the province, I certainly would be in support of that.

For almost 60 years we have benefited from the peace and freedom these soldiers earned with their sweat, bought with their blood, and some of them paid with

their lives.

In closing, I think we should never forget the ultimate price paid for our freedoms and beliefs that we sometimes take for granted. I would like to remind all

the young people, and certainly older people, in the province and across the country that freedom is not free.

The Acting Speaker: This concludes the time allocated for debate on this ballot item.

PUBLIC SECTOR

ENERGY EFFICIENCY ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR L'EFFICACITÉ ÉNERGÉTIQUE DU SECTEUR PUBLIC

Mr Cordiano moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 87,

An Act to require that public sector organizations conduct an energy audit, submit an energy efficiency plan and implement the plan / Projet de loi

87, Loi exigeant que les organismes du secteur public fassent une analyse énergétique et soumettent et mettent en oeuvre un plan d'efficacité énergétique.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): The member has up 10 minutes for his presentation.

Mr Joseph Cordiano (York South-Weston): This bill is a straightforward bill that requires that public sector organizations conduct energy

audits, that they submit energy efficiency plans to the Minister of Energy for approval and that they implement these plans within a year after submitting them.

I believe that this is of vital importance to the province of Ontario. At the present time, we face dire circumstance and a real crisis when it comes to

electricity in Ontario. We've gone through a major crisis over the last year. We continue to go through that, and I believe the time has come for the government to act, to bring about a

conservation program. This bill attempts to do just that with the public sector and the broader public sector: schools, hospitals, universities, any transfer recipient from the province of Ontario;

it would require them to submit these plans and to implement them.

The bill essentially does five things: first, it will conserve energy and thus reduce the demand for energy; second, it will save money by reducing operating

costs; third, it will cut down on the need for additional power or additional energy sources; fourth, it will cut down on dirty emissions and help the environment; finally, fifth, it will help to

support an emerging alternative energy industry and also an industry that would support energy efficiency. That would increase employment as well.

This bill would do a number of beneficial things for the province. This bill stems from the recommendations made by the select committee on alternative fuel

sources. In the committee's report, recommendation 50:

"The Ontario government shall establish commitments and targets for alternative fuel/energy, including energy efficiency and conservation for

universities/community colleges, public and separate schools, and the hospital/health care sector. Energy plans for individual institutions shall be prepared and shall include targets for

alternative fuel/energy use and/or energy efficiency and conservation measures by December 31, 2003."

Isn't that interesting? I say to the government, the time is running out. Here we are, June 19, and there's very little action on the part of the government.

Apart from some vague reference in the throne speech that the government would initiate conservation programs for the public and broader public sector and consumers, there is no bill that's been

put forward by the government, there isn't an initiative that's been announced by Management Board with regard to the broader public sector and, furthermore, in the budget itself that was brought

down by this government there is very little initiative shown on the part of the government to substantiate that commitment in the throne speech.

That's why I believe this bill is necessary. This bill, as I say, will get us going in the direction of conservation. What better place to start than with the

public sector organizations that the government is directly controlling, directly mandating, and, furthermore, the broader public sector, school boards, hospitals and the like, transfer recipients?

I believe it's absolutely critical that we begin this process. Again, the select committee on alternative fuel sources recommended that the government put this in place by the end of this year. The

government is not moving on that front. I don't understand why, but this bill is required as a result of the lack of government initiative.

It's important to note that in the state of California, for example, they were able to reduce consumption by 9% in the first year after they implemented a

conservation strategy -- a tremendous saving, 9%. What that means for Ontario, for example: if we were able to reduce consumption of our electricity demand by 9%, that amounts to the reduction and

the elimination of two coal-burning power plants the size of Lakeview. That is a tremendous saving.

When you look at peak demand in Ontario in August of last year, it was at approximately 25,000 megawatts of electrical power that was used a peak demand in

Ontario. If we were to take 10% of that, it's about 2,500 megawatts of power. Lakeview generates, at peak demand, about 1,200 megawatts of power. So by reducing consumption by 10% in Ontario we

would eliminate two coal-burning plants the size of Lakeview. That is an astounding figure and it's data that would really help the environment.

We know that the coal-burning plants are producing toxic emissions that contribute to smog in this province. Last year we had, I believe, a minimum of 37 smog

days in the GTA in southern Ontario. That is causing untold damage to our economy and to the health of the people of this province. The asthma rates for children have gone up dramatically. It is

just unacceptable that in Ontario today we continue to burn these dirty coal-fired plants at the rate at which we have to burn them. That is because we don't have the additional supply, and it's

very critical that we begin by reducing consumption through conservation.

As I say, it is a dramatic impact that we can have in terms of the reduction that we can bring about by simply conserving. There are many examples of this in

other jurisdictions. In the state of Iowa, for example, they brought about energy efficiency plans in public schools and they were able to save about $12 million a year through their program.

Texas, of all places, is also saving $5 million a year with regard to the reductions in energy consumption they brought about in their school system. Right here in Canada we have the city of

Windsor, which saved $2 million over five years by bringing about energy efficiency programs. They reduced carbon dioxide emissions by 6,500 tonnes annually -- astounding reductions. Yet here in

the province of Ontario, we lag behind with respect to the broader public sector and the government ministries under the control of Management Board, the buildings that we use.

The Sooke school district in British Columbia undertook a performance contract -- and I want to talk about this for just a moment. I believe we could use

performance contracts to effect these changes. I also believe the government of Ontario needs to provide some incentives by way of capital funding. I couldn't put that in my bill today because it

is a private member's bill and it would call for the expenditure of funds. But through regulation, the Minister of Energy and Management Board should bring about an incentive program, should put

together a capital fund to ensure that this is taking place and that the broader public sector has access to the initial capital investment that might be required.

In conclusion, as I've said, this bill brings about a huge number of benefits. It is time for Ontario to act, to begin a conservation strategy. It is time for

Ontario to act with respect to the broader public sector and the public sector. I think members should support this bill.

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I'm very pleased to join in the debate with respect to ballot item number 16, which is the

second reading of Bill 87,

An Act to require that public sector organizations conduct an energy audit, submit an energy efficiency plan and implement the plan, by the honourable member Mr

Cordiano.

I'd like to say that from our government's perspective, and on behalf of all of the members on this side of Legislature, conservation and energy efficiency

form a major component of our energy policy. In fact, it's so much a cornerstone that Bill 87 is redundant and would appear to add little to programs and legislation this government has already put

in place. Whether it would be proposals in the recent budget or programs put in place by the Minister of Energy, this government has an impressive record on conservation and efficiency.

Let's start with the Energy Efficiency Act. The province has in place minimum efficiency levels for 54 residential, commercial and industrial products and

appliances. This program alone has resulted in energy savings in excess of $250 million and has saved enough energy to meet the electricity needs of Windsor and London for an entire year.

The government is leading by example. We are taking actions that will reduce our own consumption in all our facilities by 10%. Management Board of Cabinet will

look for ways to construct buildings that are energy self-sufficient using alternative or clean sources of energy. Last fall we passed the Electricity Pricing, Conservation and Supply Act, 2002,

which outlines a number of impressive efficiency measures. This act strengthened the Ontario Energy Board's mandate and made it have a greater role in promoting conservation, energy efficiency and

load management.

We also created a sales tax rebate for consumers who buy certain high-efficiency appliances. This program has enjoyed tremendous success so far, and we've had

over 55,000 applications for the rebate. In fact, counting only the approximately 36,000 rebate applications that have been processed to date, the appliances that those applications represent have

saved enough power to equal the total annual power consumed by 4,000 homes -- a staggering step forward.

The Minister of Finance is putting the final touches on new regulations for tax incentives that will encourage energy conservation, including allowing new

investments in qualifying electrical energy-efficients to be eligible for a 100% tax write-off in the year of acquisition. This will encourage large power users to take steps to lower their

demand.

We also announced that we would create a task force on conservation and supply which will, first, provide an action plan outlining ways to attract new

generation and identifying mechanisms for demand-side management. The plan will be based on the principles of security of supply, adequacy, affordability, reliability, environmental soundness and

the competitiveness of the Ontario economy. Second, it will identify any barriers to the development of long-term electricity supply and conservation and recommend solutions. Third, it will make

recommendations on how to enhance the reliability and responsiveness of Ontario's electricity grid. Last, it will ensure that all electricity stakeholders have input into the process by organizing

two-day-long consultations, one on new supply and another on conservation.

My colleague the Minister of Energy recently directed the Ontario Energy Board to consult with stakeholders on an appropriate demand-side management framework

for Ontario's electricity market and report back to him with recommendations. The minister has asked the Ontario Energy Board to identify and review options for the delivery of demand-side

management and demand response activities. He also asked the Ontario Energy Board to look at the role local distribution companies and other groups, such as the Independent Electricity Market

Operator, can play in demand-side management.

Finally, the budget announced last March committed the government to provide consumers more information on saving energy. It committed the government to

providing incentives to get energy-efficient products into homes of consumers who want them. It also commits the government to developing an integrated conservation strategy that includes the

government, public sector groups and consumers.

I'm proud of this government's conservation efficiency efforts. While we support the goals of Bill 87, I want it to be absolutely clear that this government

has already taken decisive action to protect the environment, help consumers and reduce energy consumption. We believe in the policies and programs we have put in place and we believe our record on

conservation and energy efficiency speaks for itself.

I also want to comment on a few other areas. Conservation and energy efficiency go hand in hand with alternative energy and green power, and this government

takes a back seat to no one in these areas. Bills such as Bill 87 are well-intentioned, but why weren't these policies allowed to surface when either of the parties opposite was in government? Why

are they coming out now? I suspect it's because they looked at our record and decided it was time to join the parade.

We're the first government to do more than just talk about clean energy and conservation. In the year 2005 -- no later than April 1, 2005, in fact -- the

Lakeview coal generating plant, west of Toronto, will stop producing power based on the consumption of coal. We've made the unprecedented commitment to shut down all the province's coal-fired

facilities no later than the year 2015.

I think it has to be stressed that it's not just a date picked out of the air. We've said that, hand in hand with the creation of new renewable power

generation across Ontario, we will, coincidentally, shut down the dirtiest existing forms of energy generation, namely the coal-fired plants. We are not going to leave people out in the cold,

though. The renewable power comes first, before you pull the plug on the coal plants.

We know that the provincial government itself is a very large user of electricity, so we think it's important to lead by example and make a commitment that 20%

of the power we use, not just in this building but in all government agencies and in all the offices across Ontario, will come from new green sources of power. As well, we will reduce our

consumption by 10%. That will be an impressive amount, when you consider the number of offices and other facilities the government operates.

Our recent budget included proposals such as 10-year tax holidays, unprecedented anywhere in North America. The provincial government has basically walked away

from any form of revenue from new green power generation for 10 years.

Not only have we said that that the generator will pay no income tax, but there will be no increase in the property tax, no increase in the capital tax, a full

rebate of the sales tax and an opportunity to take a 100% write-off of any investment in the year that investment is made. My colleague the Minister of Finance is just putting the final touches on

these regulations.

We've already instituted a sales tax rebate that would give consumers a full rebate of all the Ontario sales tax if they purchased either a solar thermal or a

solar photovoltaic energy system.

We've gone further down the road to conservation by coming up with a rebate program that will return your provincial sales tax if you buy an Energy Star

appliance: a washer, a dryer, a dishwasher or a freezer. So far, we've had over 50,000 applications for that rebate. If you add up all the energy savings from only the 36,000 applications processed

so far, it's the same as the annual use in 4,000 homes.

It was this government that made it possible for the wind turbine down on the waterfront here in Toronto, the wind turbine in Pickering and the Huron wind farm

on the shores of Lake Huron to be built.

It was this government that pledged to allow people who want to install their own renewable electricity generation systems to take advantage of net

metering.

It was this government that put in place a system where Ontario Power Generation and other generators can now market green power to their customers.

Both parties on the other side had their chance but, while they talk a good game, our actions speak for themselves.

It was this government that announced plans that will make Ontario the leader in clean energy technologies. To do that, we have undertaken to invest $20

million to create a centre of excellence for electricity and alternative energy technology in a total of five universities.

I'm extremely excited at the opportunity that gives us the ability to attract some of the leading-edge pure research to take us beyond even the technical

innovations that have already happened in the renewable energy field into an even more promising and even more affordable renewable power future.

As my colleague the Commissioner of Alternative Energy noted the other day, other companies are lining up to build wind farms, new photovoltaic manufacturers

have been created, and this was all because our government put in place policies that allowed it to take place.

My colleague The Minister of Energy recently directed the Ontario Energy Board to consult with stakeholders on an appropriate demand-side management framework

for Ontario's electricity market and report back to him with recommendations. The minister has asked the OEB to identify and review options for the delivery of demand-side management and demand

response activities. He also asked the OEB to look at the role local distribution companies and other groups, such as the Independent Electricity Market Operator, can play in demand-side

management.

I could go on, but I know that my time is limited. Let me conclude by saying that I take great pride in this government's record on energy efficiency and

conservation, both the actions we have taken to date and the commitments we have made for the future.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): It's highly irregular and improper, but I have been asked to introduce Joy Cox in the members' east

gallery. Joy comes from Leeds-Grenville and is the mom of Bryant, to my left.

Mr Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings): Before I start I would like to introduce a gentleman with me today, Ted Belyea, from my riding,

whom I had the pleasure of working with for 25 years. An incredible individual is here to see how democracy works, and I hope we don't disappoint him.

It is a pleasure to speak to this bill, and I don't think it's a coincidence that representing the Liberal Party today will be the member for St Catharines and

myself, both of whom have had the pleasure and privilege of being on the select committee on alternative fuel sources, a good committee that I think produced a fine report that is now occupying

spaces on top shelves in a number of government offices.

There were quite a number of other recommendations that should have been brought forward out of it, so I applaud the member for York South-Weston for bringing

this forward. It was a unanimous report, and I'm disappointed in how little action the government has taken on the recommendations for it. But this is certainly an excellent one to get started.

I think it's maybe a little bit ironic or coincidence that I learned that this very day within Whitby they are experiencing about the second-worst power

outages that they ever have. Rumour has it that the heavy drain on power may actually be that there's a printing firm there that's producing government brochures to distribute across the province,

and we don't have enough electricity in the system to actually keep all of those presses running. So if you fellows would slow down a little bit on that -- there's no need to send the same brochure

three or four times to each house. If you'd back off, we'd save on trees, we'd save our forest. Just a suggestion.

Interjection: And frustration would diminish.

Mr Parsons: Yes.

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): You have nothing more to say except spurious comments.

Mr Parsons: Don't. That's hurtful. That hurts.

Interjections.

Mr Parsons: OK. Don't wave at me.

The government record, seriously, on energy is probably as dismal as one would find in North America, if not the world. One need only read the newspapers over

the past years, if you had the light on in the house so that you could read the newspaper. But over the last year we have had a lurching series of energy crises, lacking direction. The apparent

solution to it was to impose a freeze of 4.3 cents per kilowatt hour. So everybody is happy; 4.3 cents is not much to pay for electricity. Indeed, with the wonderful unveiling of it, at a house

where the homeowner said, "Now I can turn on my Christmas lights," certainly the appearance was that electricity was so cheap we can do anything we want with it.

However, I would say to the people of Ontario, take the amount of energy that you use and work that in relation to your total bill, and you're not paying 4.3

cents per kilowatt hour; you're paying eight cents, nine cents, 10 cents a kilowatt hour. The delivery charges were also frozen, and they were frozen at the highest rate in history. So the 4.3-cent

announcement actually I think psychologically has caused people to increase their power usage, now that it's so cheap, and has been detrimental to conservation rather than encouraging conservation.

It is a unique commodity: we can't store it; we can't save it overnight. We have a huge surplus of electricity at 2 o'clock in the morning, a shortage in the afternoon.

Interjection.

Mr Parsons: I'm just going on what I was told by people on the other side, but we have more electricity than we require at 2 o'clock in the

morning. In fact, I would suggest from a conservation viewpoint that it would behoove the government to consider establishing a program. So many people do their dinner in the late afternoon, after

using the stove and high energy consumption, put the dishes in the dishwasher and turn it on. Under the current system that this government has, they're going to pay the same price per kilowatt

hour at 6 o'clock in the afternoon as they would have paid at 3 o'clock in the morning. Surely there should be some system put together that would give an incentive. Certainly we can have timers

that would have the dishwasher kick on at 3 o'clock in the morning, when we don't have the energy crisis that we do. But we need to encourage people, and we need to encourage them with carrots.

This member's bill provides for, first of all, finding out where the government buildings can reduce their energy consumption -- absolutely wonderful concept.

The question has been asked, why didn't it do it earlier? We didn't have an energy crisis 10 years ago. It simply wasn't an issue, because we had a Hydro that was able to provide safe, cheap,

reliable power. Now we've seen in the last couple of years, where we're into the crisis, that something has to happen. The member for York South-Weston has done that.

It also means the government must not just do a study on the buildings, as they did on the alternative fuels. They have to accept that there has to be some

upfront money to produce the energy savings to produce the long-term savings for it.

I'm concerned that they don't act on it. This government seems to think that once we talk about an issue, we're going to do an audit and whatever, well, the

issue is solved in the public's mind, when in fact it isn't. You have to implement the recommendations of a report before you can be assured of any cost savings out of it.

With the current electricity situation -- we've got issues with oil and natural gas -- it became apparent from the select committee that we don't have

unlimited resources as it relates to natural gas; and with oil, we are probably, within the world, reaching the limit of cheap oil, oil that's easy to access, oil that's easy to extract and

process. We are probably moving into an era where we're looking at expensive oil -- oil from underneath the ocean, oil from the Arctic -- that will still be there for our generation but will be

much more expensive to obtain. So there are all kinds of motives to decrease our demand on those fuels.

Unfortunately, probably the fuel we have the largest access to that is incredibly cheap is coal. I know the government is committed to shutting down the coal

plants in 2015, but we put that in the perspective of the medical community telling us that about 1,200 people die prematurely in Ontario every year because of the effects of pollution from coal

plants. So from now to 2015, an awful lot of individuals and families will pay a severe price for our reliance on coal.

I applaud Dalton McGuinty for his commitment to 2007. Our leader would like to shut them down today, but realistically we know we have to find alternative

energy sources for it, but there's a profound difference between 2007 and 2015 when we take those eight years and multiply them by 1,200 premature deaths each year. The government could do better.

They could do it much faster than they are.

Green energy: I note one of the platforms of the government is to produce savings for companies that want to use green energy, such as windmills, but I find it

kind of funny that one of your commitments is that there will be no increase in property tax. That's not going to cost you a penny. That's a great promise. You're saying you're going to let

somebody else go without the revenue from it. That's downloading on to municipalities, so please don't take credit for it.

This bill is a good bill that will certainly help to reduce the supply and save it for our children, our grandchildren and future generations.

Mr Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): Mr Speaker, on a point of order: I want to welcome Edie Thurston's class from V.K. Greer Public School

in Utterson, in the riding of Parry Sound-Muskoka, that is visiting today in the west public gallery. This is one of many trips they have done down to Queen's Park.

Mr Cordiano: Mr Speaker, on a point of order: I believe the clock was running against our time. You should probably add a little more time to

it.

The Deputy Speaker: I'll make sure that gets corrected.

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): I'm pleased to speak on this piece of private members' public business this morning. This may be a

worthwhile idea, but without aggressive financial incentives, the plan will fail to achieve serious energy efficiency savings. However, it doesn't mean we won't support it, because to send a

message to the government that something needs to be done -- they are doing absolutely nothing -- is really important today and as we move toward an election.

As the member, Mr Cordiano, rightfully suggests in bringing it forward, this is an Achilles heel of this government's. It talks a good line but it really

delivers very little. There are no targets set and no money, so this could amount to little more than filling out forms and implementing small changes.

Broader public sector organizations need help. This government's cutbacks have left them little room to manoeuvre. The NDP's Public Power, Practical Solutions

book has in it a program called Efficiency Ontario which will provide $300 million per year in energy efficiency incentives so that deeper cuts can be achieved.

Just a little background on the bill. Every organization with the majority of members of its board appointed by or under the authority of cabinet or a cabinet

minister, plus all municipalities, hospitals, universities, colleges and corporations owned at least 90% by a public or broader public sector organization and other BPS institutions will be

required to submit an energy efficiency plan to the minister within one year of the coming into force of the relevant

section of this bill.

The plan must include an energy audit and describe proposed energy efficiency changes as well as projected costs and savings.

The plan must be approved by the governing body of the organization.

If an organization ceases to be a public sector organization during the period in question, it does not have to prepare a plan. The overly suspicious might

suggest that a privatization agenda is afoot here.

The minister can ask for repeated alterations to the plan before it is approved.

"Within one year after the energy efficiency plan is approved by the minister, the public sector organization shall implement the plan." It is unclear from

this sentence whether the entire plan must be implemented within one year, which may be impractical.

The minister can designate or exempt public sector organizations.

Having said that and put on the record some of our concerns, support for any initiative that will promote and move forward an energy efficiency agenda out of

this place is good. We as New Democrats are saying, in contrast to both this bill and the lack of anything of substance coming forward from the government, that by the end of a New Democrat

government's first term, Efficiency Ontario will reduce electricity demand by some 3,500 megawatts. That's the equivalent of the entire Darlington nuclear station. This represents the same

percentage of electricity demand as California saved through their conservation in 2001. For an Ontario family with an electricity bill of $1,200 and a gas bill of $1,200, this would represent a

saving of some $360. That's a significant saving, particularly for the many, many citizens in this province today experiencing the significantly rising prices of energy in communities like Wawa and

Echo Bay and Thessalon and Elliot Lake and Sault Ste Marie. This is significant money, particularly for people on fixed incomes who have no room to manoeuvre.

California instituted a 20/20 program in the spring of 2001 in order to prevent blackouts. The program was continued in 2002. Consumers who reduced electricity

consumption by 20% got a further discount of 20% on the energy portion of their bill. About one third of residential consumers qualified by achieving the required energy savings, so it can be done.

The 20/20 program was part of an extensive conservation strategy that saved the state over 5,700 megawatts, or 14% of its peak summer electricity consumption, thereby preventing blackouts.

Community-based public education efforts, including a public conservation campaign called Flex Your Power, were also an important part of the package. According to a report done for the California

state auditor, California's efforts cost three cents per kilowatt hour, or 4.2 cents Canadian, substantially less than the cost of new generating capacity.

This Efficiency Ontario project is of course consistent with some of the programs we were delivering between 1990 and 1995 when we were the government. We talk

about home green-ups. Home energy audits have long been an excellent way of assisting homeowners with energy conservation. These measures can include such things as basement wall insulation,

energy-efficient windows and proper caulking and sealing. The NDP government's green communities program, a program we had available when we were government that was slashed almost immediately when

the Conservatives took over in 1995, made these audits available free to the public. I actually had one done on my own home, I remember, and we're still doing some of the things that were suggested

by that group to reduce our energy costs. It is important. Our kids actually bought into that as well. The Conservatives cancelled the program, but many of the community groups carried on. Audits

were no longer free, and few, if any, other incentives were available.

A recent pilot project in Peterborough, sponsored by the Ontario Ministry of the Environment and Natural Resources Canada, found that without incentives,

audited homeowners only undertook about 5% of the recommended improvements. This is where we think the lack of any reference to financial support or incentives in the bill that we're discussing

here today is a real shortfall in the proposal. With an $800 incentive covering about 25% of the total cost, however, the ratio increased to over 40%.

So without the incentives, we had a 5% take-up of the suggestions made through these audits. With an $800 incentive covering about 25% of the total cost, the

number of people taking advantage of that program rose to over 40%. Efficiency Ontario will be able to provide significant incentives. That's why we're talking about the kind of money that we

are.

According to the Suzuki Foundation, the kinds of building envelope retrofits facilitated by home energy audits lead to significant savings in both heating and

air conditioning, which of course are the two big consumers of energy these days; that which we focus on so readily in the winter, heating, and in the summer, air conditioning, as we deal with some

of the shortfall in energy supply we see in the province today.

There will be big savings potential in commercial and industrial buildings as well, we think. The Mountain Equipment Co-op on King Street in Toronto has saved

40%, compared to the energy costs of the average building. The city of Toronto has had great success with its program retrofitting commercial, institutional and multi-unit residential buildings for

big energy savings.

The New Democrat government began switching public housing buildings away from electric heat to natural gas and improving building insulation. That kind of

approach, that kind of initiative, will be restarted under our proposal, included in the Public Power: Practical Solutions for Ontario document we are taking out and around the province these days

as we move closer and closer to an election in this jurisdiction.

The Conservatives are offering a rebate on provincial sales tax for new energy-efficient appliances. Unfortunately, this has only been enough to entice 3,200

consumers to tap into the program.

A program of interest-free loans would help more consumers exchange their old refrigerators or air conditioners for new energy-efficient models. Of course,

that's part of our program as well and part of what we did when we were in government.

Mr George Smitherman (Toronto Centre-Rosedale): A free beer fridge program.

Mr Martin: Well, whatever. You can call it what you like, but if it works, it works. If people take it up and do it, then it's effective.

That's what we're saying.

For example, many older refrigerators like those beer refrigerators that many people have in their basements consume 900 kilowatt hours of electricity per

year. The most efficient new ones use around 200 kilowatt hours. Switching would save a homeowner $77 a year. So we're talking about some pretty serious, significant money here.

We talk about saving $360 a year by making sure your home is energy-efficient in terms of insulation, doors, windows and those kinds of things. Also included

in that would be efforts by residents in homes and buildings to do things like turning off water, turning out lights and bringing in automatic turnoffs of those utilities.

You add that $360 to the $77 a year that we feel people could save by turning in some of their old refrigerators or other appliances, like air conditioners,

and we're talking about over $400 a year in savings. As I said before, that's a lot of money, particularly for somebody on a fixed income.

So we think this bill before us today is certainly a good signal to be sending out to the people of Ontario and to this government. It's something that we

think is worth supporting, and we will support it at the end of the morning here. We congratulate Mr Cordiano for bringing it forward. However, as I've stated, we think it doesn't go far enough in

that there isn't identified in this -- although I know in bringing forward a private member's public bill you have to be careful that you're not calling on the government to spend money, because

that would disqualify the bill and perhaps that's some of why he hasn't gone a little bit further than he has in identifying money that should be made available to induce people to want to take up

some of the incentive that's here.

But we think it's really important, and it's unfortunate that the government itself isn't putting out some detailed program or plan to take us down that road

as well. But then, it shouldn't surprise us, because as we look at what's happening out there today in the energy field and we see the damage that's being done to communities, to business and

industry and to individuals across the province, no less than in places like Wawa and Dubreuilville and White River, where I, with my colleague from Timmins-James Bay, was this past week and the

insensitivity, it seems, or the lack of interest or whatever it is -- last night I used the term, "Nero fiddled while Rome burned." We have a government with Mr Baird, the energy minister, and the

Premier saying, "We're looking at it. We're concerned. We're going to do something," yet every day that goes by, another business closes down, another industry lays off people, people on fixed

incomes have to get out of their homes and move into smaller accommodation in many of these communities, and they will never return. Once you go into bankruptcy, once you leave a business, once you

lay off hundreds of people in an industry, it's really, really difficult to turn that around. So those communities will lose those enterprises for good.

Places like Wawa, White River and Dubreuilville, which depend on one industry for their livelihood, can't afford that -- as is happening in White River: if

Domtar closes the mill, it's the only industry in town of any real consequence that takes them through all the seasons -- gone. Over 300 people are out of work, unemployment insurance will only

last so long, and then those folks have to look at something else. In most instances, they will leave town and they will take with them the tax base that the municipality needs to continue to

support and build the infrastructure.

As these communities make overtures to the government, it seems to be falling on deaf ears, because nobody will come up, nobody will meet with them. A week ago

Thursday, today, there was a meeting in Manitouwadge, where it was suggested an interministerial task force be set up -- no response from the government yet on that. I suggest that this morning

we'll probably find that they'll vote against this bill as well.

Mr O'Toole: I'm pleased to rise and address the member from York South-Weston's Bill 87. As I understand it, really, I can't stand here and

oppose it, because I think anyone here should be in favour of supporting conservation, for all the right reasons: for the Kyoto emissions and all the other reasons that we should be supporting

conservation. It's the right thing to do. In fact, I suspect if you looked at the price of energy in the marketplace, I suppose we should have a policy that reflects conservation. In other words,

if you were paying market price, you'd probably be using less electricity.

I think what's wrong in the marketplace, actually, is that some of the right tools aren't in place. If we had time-of-rate metering, people could be rewarded

for using the clothes dryer late at night. But as it stands today, you pay a flat rate, and that flat rate isn't adjusted for the time of day that you use it. So your bill is sort of averaged,

unfortunately. But I think the government is taking steps to introduce the time-of-rate metering. In fact, I believe you'll see with the strengthened role of the Ontario Energy Board in Bill 23

that it will mandate many of these things.

This government really believes that it's important to lead by example. I think really if you looked at the government's April throne speech, they made a

number of commitments, one of which was to start with themselves, to reduce their own consumption by 10%. This would extend, of course, to the broader public sector, and of course that, in the

preamble, is much of what Mr Cordiano is talking about. So I don't really disagree.

I think it's just good management. The fact of setting up a whole regime to review these energy audit plans -- I think there will be a lot more bureaucrats all

making $100,000 a year.

I think the school boards and other public sector partners have the resources today -- in fact, have been. When I was a school trustee, many of the boards were

introducing energy-efficient light bulbs, lighting systems and heating systems to save money. In fact, I would just strengthen that and perhaps reward them for doing it themselves, as opposed to

allowing the ministry. But, substantively, I think the government is on the right track in its energy plan. There's a rebate for people purchasing energy efficient appliances.

Just one more comment: one of the earlier speakers said something I don't agree with: that there is no way to save electrons; that when you generate

electricity, you've got to use it. Well, if you look to the future of the use of hydrogen and other mechanisms for storing energy, I think you'll see a lot of new responses to levelling the peak

load on our system. In fact, rather than building new generation capacity, we should be looking at ways to store existing capacity when it's not being used.

From this side of the House, I believe we'll be looking at it very carefully. Respecting the member from York South-Weston, it's an important initiative we'll

be supporting on my side.

Mr Martin: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I just wanted to recognize the presence in the visitors' gallery of a school from Sault Ste Marie,

St Mary French Immersion School. Welcome to Toronto.

The Deputy Speaker: Welcome to our Legislature.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I join the member in welcoming our friends from Sault Ste Marie, the home of the Soo Greyhounds and the

home of a lot of very good people who were born in Sault Ste Marie. I have some relatives, in fact, who reside in Sault Ste Marie.

I want to begin by commending my colleague the member for York South-Weston, Joe Cordiano, for bringing forward this timely piece of legislation.

Those of us who served on the select committee on alternative fuel sources believe that the recommendations we found in this particular report were excellent.

We were all looking forward, and I think without political affiliation interfering with it, to a timely implementation of the recommendations contained in the report. The advantage, of course, of

the select committee was that, I think all members would agree, we put our partisan hats aside, worked together, did a lot of discussing, did a lot of investigating, became somewhat expert in the

field of alternative fuels and came up with, I think, a good report.

The problem when you get a report of this kind is whether it's ever going to be implemented. Some recommendations, I see, are being implemented. All of us who

were on the committee want to see more of those implemented, and that's why it is timely for the member for York South-Weston, Joe Cordiano, to bring forward this particular measure.

The cheapest way of dealing, I say as the Minister of Energy comes in -- and he would agree -- with the demand side of electricity is to reduce the demand in

the first place; that is, a major conservation program. That usually happens when there's a crisis. Some will recall that back in 1973, when there was a boycott on oil from the Middle East, there

was a great effort made then to reduce the consumption of gasoline and oil products, and there was a reduction in consumption as a result. That was driven by a boycott, driven by highly escalating

prices.

The member for York South-Weston is saying we can do that without a crisis. We simply have to anticipate and recognize that we have to implement a major,

comprehensive, extensive conservation program in this province to reduce electricity consumption, particularly so that in the peak hours in the summer, when air conditioners are going and there's a

great demand, and in the winter, when furnaces are going and there's a great demand, we will not have a crisis of supply; but also that we will be able to simply make all of us more efficient.

The suggestions about what we can do within houses are important, within industry. There were some good programs -- the member for Sault Ste Marie made

reference to this -- in the late 1980s and the early 1990s, which unfortunately were terminated when the government got into cost-cutting measures after being elected in 1995. As a result, we've

lost eight years of potential progress in energy conservation.

We have to recognize as well that the member has said he wants to see a reduction in the demand for electricity produced by coal-fired plants. I remember

reading last July the edition of the Economist -- certainly not what would be known as an environmental magazine -- and on the cover it said, "Environmental enemy No 1" -- coal. We recognize that

it produces sulphur dioxide, nitrogen oxide and a number of other toxic substances which are detrimental to public health and to the health of plant life in this province. Mercury comes to mind as

being a very significant one, and carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxides, as I mentioned, and sulphur dioxide.

What the member is saying in effect is, and he's gone through the detail, "Let's look at the public sector: the government of Ontario and the government of

Canada, municipalities, universities, colleges, hospitals and so on. Let's have a thorough evaluation or audit of these and come forward with concrete proposals and implement proposals which would

substantially reduce the electricity that is consumed in those instances," and he has provided us with some examples.

I remember reading about the city of Windsor, for instance, which has reduced by a substantial amount its consumption and has saved a lot of money. They saved

$2 million over five years and paid for the performance contract over nine years. They reduced carbon dioxide emissions by 6,500 tonnes, annually lowered emissions of nitrous oxide and methane and

improved comfort, lighting and air quality in buildings, so they had greater employee productivity.

You see, it has to be done by setting the example. Those of us who had a chance to see this in other jurisdictions recognize, for instance, that solar power is

one way we can do this. The Honourable Robert Welch, when he was the member for Lincoln and Brock, partially in the city of St Catharines, ensured that there was an experimental program, a pilot

program at Applewood public school in the Merritton

section of St Catharines to put solar panels on that school. With the advanced technology we have today, we can use a lot of solar power. It's

not something that's way off in the distance, it's not something that's outlandish. It can be used now.

We have an opportunity to utilize wind power. Again, there were people who were naysayers about that. Look at the province of Alberta: the entire system of

public transit in the city of Calgary is in fact fuelled by electricity produced by, notionally speaking, windmills at Pincher Creek and at other locations in Alberta.

The member has I think clearly indicated that we as a government in Ontario have a chance to show the way and to effect major reductions in the costs of energy

in this province. You can't do it simply by hoping it's going to happen. You have to have, unfortunately, whether you like it or not, a very strong comprehensive audit of your buildings, vehicles,

everything within the jurisdiction of government and the greater public sector that I mentioned previously. When we do that, we'll reduce consumption. When we reduce consumption, we'll reduce the

amounts of contaminants that are produced by coal-fired plants. We will save money. It'll be nice, I know, for our industries and businesses that want to be competitive to save money as well. On

their bottom lines they can be more competitive, more productive and more economically viable by implementing these measures.

I want to commend the member for York South-Weston. I see no reason why any member of this House would be in opposition to this legislation. It's very

forward-looking. I know his constituents will be pleased to see that he has taken the initiative to put this bill before the House for consideration.

The Deputy Speaker: The time allotted for debate has expired. I'm sorry -- the member for York South-Weston has two minutes to respond.

Mr Cordiano: Very briefly, just a couple of comments. Thank you to the members who have spoken to this bill.

This bill is not intended as a comprehensive conservation strategy. It is, however, intended to get the government moving with the broader public sector and

the public sector. It's about leadership. It's about the fact that this government hasn't shown that leadership with respect to the reduction and consumption of energy. If you examine the throne

speech, it clearly indicates a lack of government commitment on this front. They, the Conservative Party of Ernie Eves, intend to phase out coal-fired generating plants by 2015. Well, guess what?

The Liberals and Dalton McGuinty are going to do that by 2007. We can't afford to wait that long. This needs to be done immediately. My bill will enact changes that will start us in that

direction.

I couldn't put other concerns about financing in the bill, calling for the expenditure of funds, since this is a private member's bill. It can't be done in

private members' bills. Let me just say this: the government can do that. As well, with respect to setting targets, that can be accomplished by way of regulation. The minister can do that by

enacting regulations to set those targets.

I think that any of these concerns that have been raised can be addressed in committee. I would hope that members would support this bill so that we can bring

it to committee and deal with those concerns. Again, I say that it is leadership that's required on the part of this government, and they have failed miserably over the last eight years to show any

kind of leadership. They have the chance to do so now. Let's move forward.

The Deputy Speaker: The time for debate has ended. Thanks for intervening, Mr Cordiano, or I might have gone right past that.

We'll deal first with ballot item 15.

MINISTRY OF CITIZENSHIP

AND CULTURE AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LE MINISTÈRE DES AFFAIRES

CIVIQUES ET CULTURELLES

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): Mr Beaubien moved second reading of Bill 54. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? It

is carried.

Shall the bill be referred to the committee of the whole?

Mr Marcel Beaubien (Lambton-Kent-Middlesex): I would like the bill referred to the standing committee on general government.

The Deputy Speaker: Is it agreed? It is agreed.

We will now deal with ballot item 16.

PUBLIC SECTOR

ENERGY EFFICIENCY ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003

SUR L'EFFICACITÉ ÉNERGÉTIQUE

DU SECTEUR PUBLIC

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): Mr Cordiano moved second reading of Bill 87. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

Carried.

Shall the bill be referred to the committee of the whole?

Mr Joseph Cordiano (York South-Weston): I'd like it to go to the standing committee on general government.

The Deputy Speaker: Is it agreed?

All those in favour will please rise and remain standing until counted by the Clerk. Thank you. Take your seats.

All those opposed will please rise and remain standing until recognized by the Clerk.

A majority is in favour. The bill therefore stands referred to the standing committee on general government.

The business of this morning having been completed, I do now leave the chair. The House resumes at 1:30.

The House recessed from 1204 to 1330.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

SAME-SEX MARRIAGE

Mr George Smitherman (Toronto Centre-Rosedale): I'm honoured to have the occasion today to stand before this House and express the great

satisfaction that the gay and lesbian community has with Canada. I'm always a proud Canadian, but my pride was intensified to an even greater extent when, earlier this week, the federal government

announced that it would not appeal but would rather move forward legislatively with a prescription that would open marriage up to gays and lesbians in this country.

I'm very, very proud always, as someone who was drawn to politics by Pierre Trudeau, to see the work he did on the Charter of Rights expressing the values

that, as a Canadian, I'm very, very proud to celebrate.

I'm very proud as well of the extraordinary people who have given service to my community in advancing our move toward equality: lawyers like Martha McCarthy

and Douglas Elliott, and Reverend Brent Hawkes and the congregation at the Metropolitan Community Church. I'm excited that this Friday afternoon -- tomorrow -- I'll have the opportunity to

participate as a celebrant at a wedding involving my good friend Toronto city councillor Kyle Rae. This is an extraordinary opportunity for our community.

Canada, as the third nation in the world to allow same-sex couples to marry, is at the forefront, as we should be as a country, in acknowledging the

fundamental equality of our people.

I realize this is a contentious issue and that it challenges many people's values, but I want to say that I've been extraordinarily impressed at the way all

people in this debate have conducted themselves. As a Canadian I'm very proud and as a gay person, I'm extraordinarily proud to call Canada my home. I'd like to thank all three party leaders in

this Legislature, who supported this initiative.

PETER GZOWSKI INVITATIONAL

Mrs Julia Munro (York North): Peter Gzowski would have been delighted with plans to pass on the torch for a tradition he began 17 years ago.

It was 17 years ago when he hit the first golf ball off the tee at the Briars Golf Club to start the first Peter Gzowski Invitational. The tournament is traditionally preceded by a night of

entertainment at the Red Barn Theatre. Some of Canada's top stars have performed, volunteering their time and talents for Mr Gzowski's support of the cause of literacy. One of Canada's most

acclaimed writer-broadcasters, Mr Gzowski died last year, but not before leaving a legacy that has become a part of the essence of the Canadian identity.

Telling the stories of Canadians and having them able to read and write those stories was his passion. The Red Barn gala was held on Monday evening, June 9. It

began with a barbecue on the lawns, followed by an evening of special performances. This year's Red Barn event was hosted by the CBC's Shelagh Rogers, while Peter Mansbridge was host and

spokesperson for the golf tournament.

Anyone who attended the event received a unique literary gift, a facsimile, complete with cigarette burns and coffee stains, of Peter Gzowski's manuscript for

Leacock's Smile, considered to be his best piece of writing. It is part of an exhibition by the Stephen Leacock Museum in Orillia, entitled "Beautiful Words," which includes a provocative epigram

by Stephen Leacock, a writer whom Mr Gzowski greatly admired.

The Peter Gzowski library is hoping to bring the exhibition to Sutton in the near future. Thank you, Peter Gzowski, for your legacy of literacy.

THUNDER BAY EXPRESSWAY

Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North): Earlier this week, another major traffic accident took place on the Thunder Bay Expressway,

this time at the extremely dangerous intersection of John Street and the expressway. Seven people were taken to hospital, with one person in very serious condition.

As is always the case when such an incident occurs, we naturally ask whether this accident could have been avoided. I can't say for sure, nor can I

categorically tell the Minister of Transportation today that if an advance warning light system had been in place this accident would not have happened. But the fact that it might have alerted the

driver cannot be denied, and it is for that reason that I once again call on the province and the minister to install lights at all the lit sections of the expressway.

Frankly, the real issue here is that what we have in Thunder Bay is a part of the Trans-Canada Highway, where speeds frequently exceed 100 kilometres an hour,

interrupted by six sets of traffic lights. Does anyone in this Legislature believe for one second that such a situation would be allowed to exist on the 401? What clearly needs to happen to avoid

these needless and tragic events is for the province to recognize its obligation to complete its own plan for the expressway. This is a stretch of the highway that needs overpasses and interchanges

that aren't just on the drawing board, but are part of a real funding commitment with a real timeline. We've been told that the province will move forward once the northwest arterial is built. I

view that as simply a cop-out. It should not be used as an excuse not to move forward on safety improvements that should have happened long ago. People in northwestern Ontario should not have to

accept a different quality in terms of highway standards just because we are far from Queen's Park -- certainly not when the price of that lower standard may cost us our lives.

HERITAGE MILTON

Mr Ted Chudleigh (Halton): Throughout Ontario there are pockets of citizens committed to preserving Ontario's history for future generations.

These various historical societies are staffed in large part by community volunteers who care very deeply about their communities.

In Milton we're very fortunate to have one such organization with several individuals dedicated to the preservation of the town's history. Heritage Milton was

founded in 1977, with a goal of protecting and preserving the local courthouse and jail. Since that time, it has been converted into the council chambers, and the jail exercise yard is one of the

prettiest gardens in town.

In September 2002, Heritage Milton celebrated its 25th anniversary with the opening of the Waldie Blacksmith Shop, a blacksmith shop sitting in Milton which

was run by four generations of Waldies. This volunteer organization carries out several projects in the town of Milton aimed at education and preservation of our history.

One outstanding volunteer is 90-year-old Leonard McNeil, one of the founding members of Heritage Milton. Yesterday, at Allendale, a retirement home in Milton,

Mr McNeil was presented with the Ontario Heritage Foundation award recognizing over 25 years of dedication to Heritage Milton. Through his years of service with Heritage Milton, Mr McNeil helped

carry out many activities, including the implementation of the town's historical plaque program. These plaques help visitors and newcomers to our community identify buildings of historical

significance. The group also preserves documents for the town of Milton archives so that we can pass along records of interest to future generations.

Halton has many remarkable citizens who are committed to preserving our culture and heritage, and we are proud of the time Mr Leonard McNeil has dedicated to

the community through Heritage Milton.

HYDRO RATES

Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): Finally, relief for Great Lakes Power customers. Late yesterday, Energy Minister Baird announced that

rural rate assistance will apply to Great Lakes Power customers. This means that customers will receive an average reduction in their electricity bills of $21 a month, and an average credit of $350

to their Great Lakes Power accounts, retroactive to May l, 2002. Obviously, people who heat with electricity or otherwise use large quantities of electricity will receive larger credits.

The rate for residential consumers will be slightly less than for Hydro One customers. This ends the blatant discrimination against Great Lakes Power

customers. Further, large industrial and large commercial customers will also receive mitigation.

The effects of these rates still need to be clarified, but the minister has committed to provide some clarification for me today. I want to thank the minister

for his help in this endeavour. I want to thank municipal leaders, community groups and residents for supporting my campaign for rural rate assistance and rate fairness in the Great Lakes Power

area.

There have been many casualties over the last 12 months. Hopefully, this means that, going forward, consumers and businesses within the Great Lakes Power area

will receive rate fairness.

SUDBURY REGIONAL HOSPITAL

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): If rumours are true, the government is finally ready to deal with the unacceptable construction delay at the

Sudbury Regional Hospital. It's how this will be dealt with that greatly concerns me. Government-appointed supervisor Graham Scott says the government isn't likely to change the hospital funding

formula to assume a greater percentage of the costs, so the community must raise 30% of the higher construction costs. A mortgage option seems to be on the table. A financial institution would

upfront local costs and the hospital would pay mortgage payments from savings in the operating budget.

The problem is that the Sudbury Regional Hospital has an operating deficit of $25 million and an accrued debt of $90 million. The board has agreed to

cost-cutting measures which may see the hospital break even by 2006, if all the operations are at one site by that time. If not, there's no guarantee of savings, much less the hoped-for $7.1

million annual savings. The plan involves the elimination of 125 to 145 full-time positions.

There are no operating savings to pay mortgage payments, and there is no guarantee of any savings for some long time to come. So what will the hospital do? Cut

even more programs and staff to find the money to pay the mortgage? What will that do for patient care? And what will it do on top of the 125 full-time positions the hospital has already agreed to

cut by 2006?

This scheme will force the hospital to take big risks that could jeopardize patient care. It's not acceptable. The government must recognize Sudbury as a

regional centre servicing northeastern Ontario, and the government should change the funding formula so the government assumes a greater cost of this share.

ELECTROVAYA

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): I am very excited to have this opportunity to recognize and applaud the achievements of Electrovaya,

a remarkable high-technology company located in my riding of Mississauga South.

With Electrovaya's groundbreaking products, the era of Star Wars remote technology has indeed arrived. Last year, Electrovaya won the innovation category of

the Ontario government's Global Traders Award for its SuperPolymer battery technology, which allows longer run times than any other rechargeable battery currently in production.

Electrovaya has also created the Scribbler, which is considered to be the world's most mobile tablet PC. Using the company's award-winning battery, the

Scribbler can run up to 16 hours -- much longer than its competition. This ingenious computer is called a Scribbler because the user can handwrite on a screen. The PC then transcribes the notations

and can send them anywhere in the world via remote, wireless technology. Like the company's batteries, the Scribbler is taking the world by storm.

Today we welcome Electrovaya's president and CEO, Dr Sankar Das Gupta, and members of his family, who are in the members' gallery. I invite all members to join

me in congratulating Dr Das Gupta and Electrovaya's vice-president and chief technology officer, Dr James Jacobs, for building a visionary company that has put Canada on the leading edge of mobile

technology. This is the Scribbler.

BEEF PRODUCERS

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): I rise today to plead with the Minister of Agriculture on behalf of the cattle producers and other

ruminant farmers in our province. Yesterday, the bottom fell out of the market in Alberta. Cattle were trading at 50 cents. At that price, producers are losing $700 a head. It is less than half the

value of the animal. Last week, the industry was already in crisis and free-fall. This has the potential to be the nail in the coffin.

The phones in my office and other members' offices have been ringing off the hook. Beef farmers are in dire straits, in danger of losing everything, not able

to hold on any longer. The federal government has announced their recovery program. We all know there are areas of contention and shortfalls with this plan. The sliding scale of compensation may

not be enough to save some farmers; the timing of the wind-down of the program is problematic, as well as how to ensure equitable distribution across the country.

The feds tell me that Alberta will have applications out to their farmers tomorrow and that cheques will be flowing next week. Our farmers in this industry

need money now. They cannot hold on any longer.

As a cost-shared, provincially administered program, our minister does have the authority and the option to enhance, extend or boost the program if she has to,

if that is what is necessary to save the beef industry in our province. I urge this government and its Minister of Agriculture to commit to this industry that they will immediately take action, get

the money into farmers' hands and do what it takes to ensure this vital industry does not disappear from the face of the province.

STEPHEN CHANDLER

Mr Bert Johnson (Perth-Middlesex): I rise today to honour a man who has devoted 35 years to children and families; 25 of those years to the

children and families of Perth county.

Stephen Chandler is the longest-serving continuous director of any children's aid society in this province and is retiring from his post as director of the

Perth county children's aid society.

I had the honour of presenting Stephen with a Queen's Golden Jubilee Medal in February. That medal recognized not only his professional service to our

community but his efforts with the United Way, St John's United Church and the Rotary Club.

Stephen's contributions have also been felt far outside the borders of the city of Stratford and the county of Perth. He was involved in an international

exchange program with the Zimbabwe Council for the Welfare of Children, which resulted in Project Wheelchair, a partnership between the Stratford Rotary Club and its sister club in Zimbabwe.

Unfortunately, I was unable to get to Stephen's retirement party last Friday night to tell him this in person, but on behalf of the people, and especially the

children, of the riding of Perth-Middlesex, I want to thank him for his years of service. I'm sure all members of this house will join me in wishing Stephen well and letting him know that his

contribution will never be forgotten.

Mr Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I ask for unanimous consent for second and third readings of Bill

100,

An Act respecting the Kawartha Highlands Signature Site Park.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is there unanimous consent? I didn't hear any noes. Agreed. The member may proceed.

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): Who said no?

The Speaker: Did you say no?

Interjection.

The Speaker: Oh, OK. Sorry.

The minister over here needs to move second and third readings.

KAWARTHA HIGHLANDS

SIGNATURE SITE PARK ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR LE PARC

DE LA RÉGION CARACTÉRISTIQUE

DES HAUTES-TERRES DE KAWARTHA

Mr Baird moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 100,

An Act respecting the Kawartha Highlands Signature Site Park / Projet de loi 100, Loi concernant le parc de la région caractéristique des

Hautes-Terres de Kawartha.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

KAWARTHA HIGHLANDS

SIGNATURE SITE PARK ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR LE PARC

DE LA RÉGION CARACTÉRISTIQUE

DES HAUTES-TERRES DE KAWARTHA

Mr Baird moved third reading of the following bill:

Bill 100,

An Act respecting the Kawartha Highlands Signature Site Park / Projet de loi 100, Loi concernant le parc de la région caractéristique des

Hautes-Terres de Kawartha.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

VISITORS

Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I wonder if you and the members of the Legislature would help

me in welcoming Derek, Roseanna and Amelia Redmond, who were the successful bidders on lunch with their member of Parliament in the legislative dining room today. Would you please join me in

welcoming them? They're in the west gallery.

Mr Toby Barrett (Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Many in the House have met Aja Sutton, our page. I wish to draw

members' attention to the members' gallery, where Aja's mother, Tara, and her grandmother, Mrs Ollie Sutton, are present.

Mr Ted Chudleigh (Halton): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I rise to introduce a former member of this House, Mr Allister Johnston. He served

in this place from 1948 to 1971, representing the riding of Parry Sound-Muskoka. Mr Johnston is currently in his 94th year. I welcome him back to this House.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): We welcome our honoured guest.

Mr Raminder Gill (Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: It gives me great pleasure and honour to welcome His

Holiness Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin in the members' gallery, head of Dawoodi Bohra Community worldwide, celebrating his 92nd birthday tomorrow, as well as members of the community: Amil Saheb

Juzer Zakari, Shiek Hamza Najmi, Sheik Zulfiqar Zakir, Sheik Aziz Dohadwala, Shiek Habib D Tawawala, Sheik Khuzeima Dohadwala, Sheik Murtaza Bhujwala, Mulla Onali Jeevanjee, Bhai Abdulhussein

Alibhai, Hussein Bhutwala, and Taha Tawawala.

Tomorrow this community will be celebrating, June 20, the birthday of the Holy Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon Him. I would like to ask the members to join

them tomorrow.

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'd like to introduce the last two people in the members' gallery: Paul Halliday

and his daughter, Bronwyn, who purchased at a charity event the opportunity to have lunch with myself and other members of caucus. I'd like to welcome them here today.

ANNUAL REPORT,

OFFICE OF THE OMBUDSMAN

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I beg to inform the House that today I laid upon the table the 2002-03 Annual Report of the Ombudsman.

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I seek unanimous consent for second and third reading of Bill 110,

An Act

to amend the Employment Standards Act.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? I'm afraid I heard some noes.

DEFERRED VOTES

ONTARIO HOME PROPERTY

TAX RELIEF FOR SENIORS ACT, 2003

LOI DE 2003 SUR L'ALLÉGEMENT

DE L'IMPÔT FONCIER RÉSIDENTIEL

POUR LES PERSONNES ÂGÉES

DE L'ONTARIO

Deferred vote on the motion for second reading of Bill 43,

An Act to provide Ontario home property tax relief for seniors / Projet de loi 43, Loi

prévoyant un allégement de l'impôt foncier résidentiel pour les personnes âgées de l'Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1353 to 1358.

The Speaker: All those in favour will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Beaubien, Marcel

Chudleigh, Ted

Clark, Brad

Clement, Tony

Coburn, Brian

Cunningham, Dianne

DeFaria, Carl

Dunlop, Garfield

Ecker, Janet

Elliott, Brenda

Flaherty, Jim

Galt, Doug

Gilchrist, Steve

Gill, Raminder

Hardeman, Ernie

Hastings, John

Hudak, Tim

Jackson, Cameron

Johns, Helen

Johnson, Bert

Kells, Morley

Klees, Frank

Marland, Margaret

Martiniuk, Gerry

Maves, Bart

Mazzilli, Frank

McDonald, AL

Miller, Norm

Molinari, Tina R.

Munro, Julia

Mushinski, Marilyn

Newman, Dan

O'Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Sampson, Rob

Spina, Joseph

Sterling, Norman W.

Tascona, Joseph N.

Tsubouchi, David H.

Turnbull, David

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wood, Bob

Young, David

The Speaker: All those opposed will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Nays

Agostino, Dominic

Bartolucci, Rick

Bisson, Gilles

Bountrogianni, Marie

Boyer, Claudette

Brown, Michael A.

Bryant, Michael

Churley, Marilyn

Colle, Mike

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

Curling, Alvin

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Gerretsen, John

Gravelle, Michael

Hoy, Pat

Kennedy, Gerard

Kormos, Peter

Kwinter, Monte

Marchese, Rosario

Martel, Shelley

Martin, Tony

McGuinty, Dalton

McLeod, Lyn

McMeekin, Ted

Parsons, Ernie

Peters, Steve

Phillips, Gerry

Prue, Michael

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Sergio, Mario

Smitherman, George

Sorbara, Greg

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 46; the nays are 35.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Pursuant to the order of the House dated June 11, 2003, this bill is ordered for third reading.

THE RIGHT CHOICES FOR

EQUITY IN EDUCATION ACT

(BUDGET MEASURES), 2003 /

LOI DE 2003

SUR LES BONS CHOIX POUR L'ÉQUITÉ

EN MATIÈRE D'ÉDUCATION

(MESURES BUDGÉTAIRES)

Deferred vote on the motion for second reading of Bill 53,

An Act respecting the equity in education tax credit / Projet de loi 53, Loi concernant le

crédit d'impôt pour l'équité en matière d'éducation.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): We also have a deferred vote on the motion for second reading of Bill 53,

An Act respecting the equity in

education tax c