ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 30A - 2:00 p.m., MONDAY, 28 MAY, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Oueens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, O.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen 1 DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie I HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOV NATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vie SCOTT, Don SHERMAN L. R Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompsc.n La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin- Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle fl,1ountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP IND NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 28 May, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 60 students of Grade 5 standing from the Southwood School, under the direction of Mr. Dueck and Mrs. Taschke.

The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORA L QUESTIONS Legislation - appearance of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I note again that the Order Paper is bereft of any bills to be presented to this House. I direct this question to the Honourable Government House Leader. When will this House be see ing some of the legislation this government Intends to introduce during this Session? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, it is my hope that there will be more bills on notice and on the Order Paper for First Reading this week. I had given the House a commitment that I hoped the majority of the legislation would be tabled In the House by Friday, June 1st. If I am not able to deliver on that it will certainly be next week, but I expect that some legislation, as the Opposition House Leader asks, will be tabled this week and I expect that it will be, and I expect that more bills will be on the Order Paper for First Reading before the week is out. Canada-Manitoba Foreat Renewal Agreement MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Natural Resources. I wonder if the Minister can advise whether the Canada-Manitoba Forest Renewal Agreement provides for the establishment of a road network through the forest areas to facilitate the reforestation operation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I would have to take as notice the question because I am not certain as to all of the details of work that is possible under that agreement.

Under that agreement there is forestry initiative that is the exclusive prerogative of the province . alone; that is, the province funds it completely. There is also an area of activity that is federal initiative alone; the Federal Government funds those initiatives exclusively. There Is a shared responsibility where there is shared funding. I don't believe, under the shared portions in which Manitoba and the Federal Government are involved, there is funding for forestry road development. I may be wrong about that, now. I'll verify that, but I don't believe there is.

I'm not certain about the federal involvement, whether that might possibly include some road development. Liveatock, Ion of, due to storm MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

In view· of the fact, for some wee ks now, we've had the Minister responsible for the Emergency Measures Organization telling the House and suggesting to the farm community that if they had a loss due to the severe ice storm and snow storm that struck southern Manitoba in the last few weeks, have the municipalities been notified as to the proper procedure in handling those requests for payment on livestock losses? Have they been notified and are they aware as to how to handle the claims? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speake r, the first response in an emergenc y, whether it's of a local or provincial character, is at the municipal level. Municipalities, many of them, have disaster assistance plans in place and their co­ ordination of those plans with the Department of Government Services has been something of which all municipalities have been advised and are aware of as part of placing themselves on a disaster footing, should some unforseen natural disaster occur.

That is co­ ordinated between the muncipal ltles and the Department of Government Services and I'm sure the Minister of Government Services can reply more fully to the member as to the details of that co-ordination. MR. J. DOWNEY: My question is more specific than . �hat. Mr. Speaker , to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, 1n view of the fact that the people who have incurred 1244

Monday, 28 ... , 1884 losses have been instructed to go to the municipalities to report and register those losses, have the municipalities been alerted as to how to handle it and who to forward the information to for consideration of compensation? Are the municipalities aware of, or have they been made aware of, the way in which they can handle the claims that are coming in? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge there has been no specific advice to date to municipalities on claim procedures because, to my knowledge, no final decision on those procedures has been made. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speak er, then I direct a question to the Minister of Government Services. Will he move, as he should have moved initially, to instruct the municipalities as to direct the farmers and to direct those claims to his appropriate department so that the confusion can be removed? There are still many people who are wondering how to go about applying for and getting a claim from the storm loss. Will the Minister of Government Services notify the municipalities as how to handle the claims that are coming In; will he take it upon himself to do that? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. A.

ADAM: Mr. Speake r, I am advised by the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board that some forms have been forwarded to municipalities that have been in the path of the recent storm at the end of April; and that we are also receiving claims direct from Individuals and municipalities coming forward at the present time. What I am doing at the moment is reviewing the guidelines that should apply to this particular type of storm which is unique, is not similar to storms experienced in the past, such as flooding and fire.

The storm that occurred at the end of April was somewhat different than what we normally have to deal with and we are putting guidelines together to apply to this kind of storm; and when that is completed I'll be forwarding this for Cabinet's review and for Cabinet's decision. My understanding from the Disaster Assistance Board is that they have met with municipalities that were in the path of the storm and that forms are available for private Individuals. Most of the municipalities themselves are aware of how it should be handled. As you are perhaps aware, Mr.

Speaker, there are 80 municipalities that now have emergency plans in place, with another 26 which are under way and there are still a number that haven't expressed interest in emergency plans for their areas; but we're very very pleased with the response that we've received up to this point in time on the number of municipalities that are involved. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speak er, the Minister has indicated that forms have been sent out by the Disaster Relief Board.

Will the Minister provide the House and the Assembly with those forms, will he provide us with a copy of them so that we can provide them to some of the individuals In our constituencies? As well, Mr. Speaker , could he give us a list of the municipalities that have received the Information and those forms so that we're as well aware of them and can, as well, notify some of our municipalities if they have been missed by the government or the government organization? Will he provide the forms, the applications and, as well, a list of the municipalities that have been contacted? HON. A.

ADAM: Yes, I'll try and obtain that information from the Disaster Board and when I have it I'll provide it to the memb er. Homeowners' relief - sewer collapse MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, Mr. Speaker , I have a question for the Minister of Urban Affairs. Does the Minister plan to bring In amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act to enable the city to pay homeowners' cost of sewer collapse on city property? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

That subject Is under discussion with the city with regard to the details of it. We are certainly In favour of that kind of assistance being available. The question is, what is a homeowner, whether it's a single family dwelling, a duplex, a triplex or whatever and those discussions should be concluded very shortly. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: To the same Ministe r, Mr Speak er, In light of the fact that there will be no cott to the province and It'll save the homeowners' living In single family dwellings thousands of dollars, and the program has to start somewhere, I wonder if the Minister would reconsider and plan to bring that In immediately because there are homeowners whose claims have been acceptE!d and everything is ready but the pay out of cash and it depends on this Minister; so I wonder if she would just stop nit-picking over who and what and just bring in the amendment. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr.

Speake r, I think the member's question was based on a different answer from me. I think she expected a different answer than the one she got; she asked the same question anyway. I didn't say that we were not going to bring it in. I said the details were under discussion and we would make a determination about it very shortly. Check the bills as they're introduced; they will be introduced shortly. Alcohol tax - Town of The Pas MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, three or four weeks ago I asked the Minister of Finance when the Cabinet 1245

would consider the Town of the The Pas' request for approval of a by-law to impose a 5 percent tax on liquor sold within the municipality. In view of the interest now expressed by the City of Thompson and the City of Winnipeg, could the Minister indicate whether or not that matter has been considered and if not, when? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are hoping to have it dealt with this coming Wednesday. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Minister for that answer and I hope that he would undertake to advise the House of the results of that consideration. North of Portage Development MR. G. MERCIER: A question to the Minister of Industry, Mr. Speaker, responsible for the Jobs Fund. Last summer the province approved a $30,000 grant to the Manitoba Federation of Labour for a feasibility study related to the North Portage Development. The province was to pay out immediately $15 ,000, and the payment of the second 15,0 00 was conditional on whether or not the Federal Government was willing to contribute.

Could the Minister indicate whether the Federal Government has contributed or whether the province has paid the full $30,000 to the Manitoba Federation of Labour? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultu re. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I'll take the question as notice and provide the information, mce I'm able to get it, for the member. Students - reduction of wages MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the Minister of Employment and Security.

I raised a matter with the Minister of Labour dur ing her Estimates and she referred me to him.

In view of the fact that there will be some 16,0 00 to 18,000 unemployed young people in the province this summer and, in view of the fact, that many young people are shortly about to be employed in jobs where the wages pay anywhere from $11 to $14 or $15 an hour because of rigid union classifications and wage rates, would the Minister advise the House whether he'd be prepared to engage in discussions with the union leaders and major employers involved as to whether or not a method could be developed so that more young people could be employed, at perhaps lesser wage rates - $6.00 or $7.00 an hour would be better than nothing that 16 ,000 or 18 ,000 of them will receive this summer - would he be prepared to engage In that type of discussion with union leaders and employers with a view to employing more young people in these jobs this summer?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I know we all share the desirable objective of employing more young people than ever before if we can this summer, given the unemployment situation, but we believe that it is a problem that should be resolved between employers and employees, between unions and management, as to what are fair wages in whatever the industry, whatever the occupation.

While a person could make an argument that perhaps certain employers might be able to employ more if wages were lower, nevertheless, in the long run we do not believe it's advisable for a government to be involved in something which Is really the traditional area for employer and employees, or management and unions to resolve. Careerstart MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the same Minister and would ask him if he could confirm that certain employers, who have been lucky enough to have a Careerstart application approved, are being asked by letter now to contact the Employment Standards Branch of the government before hiring a student? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Employment Services HON. L EVANS: The honourable member raises a question of administrative detail. I'll take the matter as notice, Mr. Speaker, and advise the honourable member. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could also confirm that employers In the construction industry are being told, when contacting Employment Standards Branch, that they will have to pay wages up to $1 3.45 an hour for certain construction jobs in order to qualify to hire the student for the Careerstart Program. HON. L EVANS: Mr. Speaker, there is a Construction Wages- Act in effect and employers, whether they get any government grant or not, are required to abide by that particular act, and there Is no change from any previous year, it's been operating this way for some time. MR. R.

BANMAN: To clarify that, Is the Minister saying that an individual, a small contractor, who is involved in construction is forced to pay a student $13 .45 to qualify for the Careerstart Program. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the honourable member th at the conditions of the Careerstart Program are set out and we are prepared to provide $2.00 per hour toward the wage that Is paid by the employer, whatever the wage that employer chooses to pay. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, in light of the fact that this employer chooses to pay $6 or $7.00 an hour and 1248

is now being forced, if he wants to hire this student, to pay $1 3.45 an hour, how can the Minister in his department be advertising the Careerstart Program for youth employment and then, on the other hand, have another department of government going ahead and tell that employer who finally gets a Careerstart student that he can't pay that student what he wants to pay him? How many phone calls has the Minister received with regard to employers saying they're just not going to hire a student under these guidelines? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the honou rable member that the situation is no different from last year. There is a law regarding construction wages and that law applies to everyone whether they get a government grant or not. But having said that, Mr. Speaker, there will be more young people employed - (Interjection) - the last year of government under the Conservative Party of Manitoba in 19 81, that government, that party provided $3.5 million as grants for student employment, young people's employment. This government, Mr. Speaker, is spending over $8 million this year for jobs for young people, employing MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. HON. L. EVANS: . . . over 6,000 young people and that is a very significant increase over'81, far more of an increase than would be dictated by any change in a rising unemployment rate. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I'm going to remind the honourable members that the unemployment situation this summer is far better than last year. We're still going to have over 6,000 young people working under the Careerstart Program. MR. A. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in light of the large number of young people who are trying to find jobs this summer, will the Minister not look into this matter of the Employment Standards Branch forcing employers to pay someone under the Careerstart Program as high at $1 3.45? Surely the Minister would like to see more people employed. Can he not undertake a study of this matter to see if we cannot employ more people in this province under this program? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, we have no trouble finding applicants under this program. In fact, we have more applications than we can possibly accommodate. That's the problem.

If we had a budget of a few more million dollars possibly we could expend that, so that is not a problem. That particular act, while it may give certain employers in the construction industry some problem is not a problem In terms o! our identifying employers who will put thousands of young Manitobans to work. As I indicated, we have far more applications than we were possibly able to accommodate. We've got well over 6,000 young people at work this summer. Indian Treaty land - entitlements MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Attorney-General.

Can the Attorney-General advise the House whether the government has yet adopted a formula for settling Indian Treaty land entitlements. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-Gener al. HON. A. PENNER: That's a question within the administrative competence of the Minister of Northern Affairs. lt should be directed to the Minister of Northern Affairs, whom I notice is not in the House, so I'll take it as notice for him. Metis land claims MR. B. RANSOM: A supplementary question to the Attorney-General, Mr. Speak er. Is the government engaged In any negotiations concerning Metis land claims In the province? HON. R.

PENNER: No. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary to the Attorney-General. Is the government refusing to enter into negotiations with the Metls people over land claims? Or Is this issue something that simply hasn't been brought to the go\"ernment's attention? HON. R. PENNER: Neither, Mr. Speaker.

The fact is, some years ago now, I believe In the time when the opposition was government, the Manitoba Metls Federation, the Native Council of Canada and another organization sued both the Government of Manitoba and the Government of Canada with respect to matters arising under The Manitoba Act and the grant of 1, 400,000 acres to the Metis at that time. Indeed, the action was an action asking simply for a declaration about the validity of certain legislation. The Government of Manitoba and the Government of Canada both filed statements of defence, and there the matter lies.

There was a period of time when an exchange of views on the legal Issues took place with the officials in my department for a period of time. The advice that we have is that the claim, In our view, has no firm legal basis and that view Is known to the Manitoba Metis Federation, which of course is at liberty to pursue the action if it sees fit. MR. B. RANSOM: A final supplementary to the Minister, . Mr. Speaker.

Since the government is not negotiating with the Metis people and doesn't recognize any legal validity to their claim, is it the Attorney-General 's Intention and the government's Intention simply to let the Metis people pursue it in court and see whether or not In fact the Attorney-General's view is correct? HON. R. PENNER: The Manitoba Metis Federation has bee.1 advised that that is our view and that, of course, as a plaintiff they are free to pursue it or not as it sees fit. Permit re herbicide spraying MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health. 1247

Mond8J, 28 May, 1984 On Friday of last week, the Honourable Minister was asked a question concerning the Manfor resources and the Manitoba Forestry Resources concerning the spraying and the use of Valpar, a herbicide In The Pas area. I wonder if the Honourable Minister can advise, after he had made the statement, that he is still prepared to monitor the tests and if the appropriate information is forthcoming and if sufficient notice is provided, will the Honourable Minister advise whether the appropriate information has been provided to him, and will he be allowing the proceeding of the spraying? MR.

SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: For the member's information I would like to inform him that that test was to be conducted by Du Pont, by use of a helicopter and I don't know if either Manfor or Du Pont are going to supply that information. The test thing was being done in a number of provinces and whether they have decided that to proceed onward, and not proceed with this test, I don't know at this point in time. But to come to the gist of the question asked, they haven't supplied any additional information, haven't been in touch with us since that incident.

So I don't know at this point in time whether they will supply us with the information and ask us to proceed at some later date because I haven't received any further requests from them. MR. A. KOVNATS: To the same Minister. Is the Minister advising that they will not be given permission to proceed unless they do provide that information? HON. G. LECUYER: Yes, that is correct. MR. A. KOVNATS: Well, as the critic of Environment, Mr. Speaker , I received a call today from some people up in the North that are directly involved, and they are under the Impression that the spraying is going to proceed.

Can the Honourable Minister advise those people if and when he will be giving permission when the spraying will proceed so that they can take the necessary action to protect themselves, if they feel that action should be taken? HON. G. LECUYER: I believe, Mr. Speak er, that Is why the Member for The Pas advised me that he wanted to ask that question the other day, and I indicated that I had been forewarned when I started replying to the question.

For that very reason, I think that in my reply last week, it was clear, or at least it was to me, that in indicating that we had asked for a design, a spray design, and we hadn't received it and as result, in conjunction with Natural Resources, had indicated that the spray could not take place. Having not heard any further they cannot proceed, obviously. MR. A. KOVNATS: Just one more question to the same Minister, if I may. The people who were in contact with me were very disappointed because they had contacted the Honourable Minister and had received no reply.

Will the Honourable Minister advise them as to what he has told us here in the Legislature, tell the people up in The Pas and the Snow Lake region who are directly concerned? Will he let them know what his intentions are and what he has told us here? HON. G. LECUYER: I don't know whom the member refers to. If he has some specific individual in mind, he shouldn't confuse that with the people of the North in general, nor the people of The Pas. If I have any letters pending from somebody from that area, I am not aware of it. Those questions or letters that I have received, I have already replied to.

By providing that information in the Legislature last week, I have a feeling that I was speaking publicly at that time. If the member is see king a general letter to all the people of the North - I am not sure if that is what he is referring to - perhaps if that kind of Information is required, maybe we can advise people of The Pas in the local newspaper as to what has taken place. Licensed Practical Nurses MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. My question is to the Honourable Minister of Health.

I would ask him whether he has any knowledge of any plans under way at the Flin Aon General Hospital to phase Ucensed Practical Nurses out of the Flin Flon General Hospital or the health system in Flin Flon generally? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: If my honourable friend would repeat the last part of his question please? MR. L. SHERMAN: The question was whether the Minister had any knowledge of any plans to phase Ucensed Practical Nurses out of the Flin Flon General Hospital or the Ain Flon health system generally. HON. L. DESJARDINS: First of all, Mr.

Speaker , If I may, I would like to congratulate the honourable member on his recent nomination. As far as the question, I have no knowledge of that, although we have Informed the hospitals that there is a study being made, the O'Sullivan study, and we had requested the hospital - I remember see ing a letter sent to the Health Sciences Centre asking to disrupt things as little as possible until we have a result from that study. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speak er, I thank the Minister for his kind words with respect to my federal nomination, and also for that answer.

But I would ask him whether he has been deluged - and I use the term literally - with letters and petitions from persons either in or associated with the health care system in Flin Flon and the Ain Flon General Hospital in recent days on this subject? I ask that question because I can assure him that members of the opposition have been so deluged. HON. L DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker , I will have to check with my office. lt might be that I wasn't given all the mail as yet, " and I will let you know. 1248

MondaJ, 28 ... , 1184 Farm Lands Ownership Act - proclamation of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. Almost a year ago now, this Assembly was asked to pass The Manitoba Farm Lands Protection Act in an urgent way and there was a lot of pressure put on to do it. To my understanding, that act still has not been proclaimed. When does the Minister plan to proclaim The Farm Lands Ownership Act or Protections Act? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, very soon. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister and all his colleagues had made such a case for the need of this, how many land transactions have taken place in the last year that would contravene the act that they are proposing, or would be against the wishes of this particular government? How many land transactions would he say aren't in favour with this government? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I will take the specifics as notice in terms of all the transactions, because I would not be party to all the transactions that are going through and being investigated.

However, the honou rable member should know that we are and have been in the process of dialogue and consultation with farm groups in the developing of the regulations and those meetings are near their final stages. As soon as all the regulations are prepared in consultation with the farm groups, we will be moving the proclamation of the statute. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that there hasn't been an urgent need for the proclamation of it, and possibly the present act is working quite well, would he reconsider the introduction of the regulations and just leave the act as it presently is and appears to be working well? Would he give that a consideration? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the opposition wants to develop two scenarios. First of all, in answer to the member's question, they would have liked to come to the Legislature and blame this government for lowering land prices during the difficult times that our farmers went through.

That didn't work and tt:ey didn't have that option open to them. Secondly, Sir, many of the farmers who are in financial difficulty today and have experienced financial difficu lty, are in difficulty as a result of having to compete against some of those who have no interest in direct farming. Mr. Speaker, the honourable members forget the details that I gave them, and I gave them case upon case of quick flip sales and transactions in which hundreds of thousands of dollars were made on single transactions. The fact of the matter is this legislation is designed to - (Interjection) - Mr.

Speaker, the honourable members ask a question but they obviously don't want an answer. Maybe they don't like the answers, Sir, but the fact of the matter is, if they ask a question then I am free to give them an answer. The honourable members obviously don't want any kind of a reply . Police Commission hearings MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I asked the Attorney­ General a question a number of days ago about the cost of the Manitoba Police Commission hearings.

Can he now advise us of the daily cost of the hearings, Including the cost of the commission, the staff, rental, counsel, etc.? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: I am meeting with members of the Commission later today, and I hope to be able to obtain sufficient data to give an answer later this week. North of Portage development MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Urban Affairs. In light of the government's decision to confirm the expropriation North of Portage Avenue, can she advise the House and the 50 affected business operations, Mr.

Speaker, when those expropriations will be effective, when will they have to leave their stores and what will exist in the area after the development? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, since the decision has now been taken, the North Portage Development Corporation can proceed to negotiate with the various groups int erested in becoming inv olved in the development of North Portage.

I can't give an exact date and I believe that the expropriation question might possibly be answered more adequately by the expropriating authority, which is the Department of Government Services, although I would be happy to get the information from that department and give more complete information at a future date. Certainly it would depend on a whole lot of variables which I don't have on hand at the moment. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Gov ernment Services then, the expropriating authority, when will the expropriation be effective?

When will the business people have to leave their stores? When will they know what will exist in the area after redevelopment? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Min ister of Government Services. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speak er, that question was answered by the Minister of Urban Affairs and she gave 1249

Monday, 28 Mlly, 1914 the information that the development corporation would be revi ewing their programs and how each individual merchant will fit into that picture and they will be so advised. lt's difficult at this point in time to give an exact date as to when each indi vidu al business would be incorporated into the overall plan. That's something that has yet to be finalized and the member should be aware of that. Transit operating grant MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , the Ministers keep referring the questions back to each other. lt's obvious that they cannot answer those questions, unfortunately.

I'll ask another question, Mr. Speak er, to the Minister of Urban Affairs. In writing to the city on February 6th of this year, she said that as a condition of the 1984 transit operating grant, recog nition of the provincial contribution to the operat ion of the Winnipeg Transit will be req uir ed. The specific req uir ements for identification of provincial assistance will be confirmed shortly with the city. Would she advise us what self-serving advertising the Provincial Government is requiring from the City of Winnipeg and at what cost to the City? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr.

Speake r, I think the member knows that Urban Affairs Estimates are due to be discussed this afternoon and some of this, I would certainly think, would be more appropriate discussed in that Comm ittee hearing. With regard to the member's first comment, which I don't think was a question, but was a

preamble to a later question but didn't relate to it - which I find very curious - let me say that I can speak for, in this House, the North Portage Dev elopment Corporation and its activities and I can report them to this House and I will be happy to do that. Ob viously the North Portage Development Corporation has not had time to meet and deli berate and draw up a book indicating the exact usage of North Portage between Friday and Monday. Friday was the announcement and this being Monday, they obviously have not done that yet. As soon as there's more information, I'll be happy to bring it to the House.

I think it's a very exciting prospect and I would not keep any information from the members. With regard to the buses - the unrela ted part of the

preamble - I would suggest that that question would be appropriately asked and answered in Estimates because that's where Urban Transportation grants will be discussed. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister very much for her suggestion, Sir , but I would like the answer to the question right now. What self-serving adver tising is the province requiring from the city with respect to transit and at what cost to the city? Legislation - appearance of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountai n. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney-General.

While the members opposite were in opposition, they were strong advocates of freedom of information, especially the present Minister of Energy and Mines. Can the Attorney -General advise the House whether or not they will be introducing freedom of information legislation this Sessi on? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Not during this Session, Mr. Speak er. I can say that the preparation of that legislation is in a very advanced stage.

What we have been doing is working with inte rest groups, working particularly however with the departments and the branch of government primarily re sponsible for the collection of documents. The problems are rea lly more administrative than that of policy. The major policy decisions have been made.

I expect to be in a position to table a White Paper, either before the end of this Session or shortly thereafter , to distribute a White Paper, so that indeed the major policy issues will be available to the opposition and members of the public; so that when we come back in the next Session, there will have been all of the opportun ity, or at least much of the opportun ity, we would want for public input. I think that bill is coming along very well and I think the members opposite will be very pleased with it, unlike the one that's been introduced in Ontario. MR.

SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has . expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I propose to move that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supp ly. I would propose, by leave, to add at the end of that motion, that we dispense with Private Members' Hour today if there is leave to do so. MR. R. DOERN: Nay. MR. SPEAKER: Leave has not been given. A MEMBER: There was a nay. HON. A. ANSTETT: There was a nay? Oh. Mr. Speaker, I would move then, seconded by the Minister of Health, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Urban Affairs. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - URBAN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Comm ittee please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply shall 1250

llondaJ, 28 ... ,. 1114 be dealing with Estimates of the Department of Urban Affairs. We begin with the opening statement from the Honourable Minister responsible for the department. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I am pleased to introduce the 1984/85 Estimates for the Department of Urban Aff airs. We all share a common interest in impr oving the general well-being of the citizens of the City of Winnipeg and in promoting the City of Winnipeg as a major focal point for economic, cultural and social activities in the province.

Such im provements can only come about through the recognition of the unique role that the City of Winnip eg plays in the Province of Manitoba and therefore our interest in our capital city. Although most all departments interact in one way or another with the city, either through grants, regulatory respo nsibilities, or the direct delivery of services to citizens, the focal point for inter-governmental relations between the city and the province Is the Department of Urban Affairs.

The primary responsi bility of this department ls the administration of The City of Winnipeg Act and the co-ordination and implementation of provincial urban policies and programs in the City of Winnip eg. Experience has demonstrated that these resp onsibilities are best met with the co-operat ion of the city council and with the Government of Canada. The provincial mandate given to me as the Minister of Urban Affairs remains unchanged from last year: it is to ensure the maintenance of the legis lative, financial and planning framework that will effectively meet the needs of the citizens of Winnipeg.

In general, the basic legislative mechanism, The City of Winnip eg Act, will soon be reviewed thoroughly by an independent committee appointed by the province. There are various aspects of that act which either the province, the council of the City of Winnipeg, or ind ividual citi zens of the City of Winnip eg have requested to be amended or revi ewed. The financial framework is under continuing review with the city.

Our general policy of seeking a return to conditional grant funding in the City of Winnipeg reflects the basic policy position of this government that it will be accountable to the Legislatur e for the expenditure of provincial funds and furthering the provincial policy and program objectives in the city. With respect to the planning framework I am happy to report that detailed discussions with the city on the proposed Greater Winnip eg Development Plan - which we call Plan Winni peg - have continued over the past year and a high degree of consensus has been achieved .

The province remains committed to supporting the final plan with both policie s and programs that reinforce its basic dir ection and with financial resources that complement the efforts of city council. Plan Winnipeg governs the long-term urban land use, transportation, and development plans for the coming decades. The province's financial commitment to urban transportation in 1984/85 is but one example of the province's intention to support the transit-or iented option that is found in Plan Winnipeg.

Substantial monies will be directed towards the renewal of Winnipeg's bus fleet through the purchase of new vehicles and the re furbishing of older buses.

In addition to the City of Winnipeg Act and the provision of financial assistance to the City of Winnipeg, the Department of Urban Affairs is responsible for the administration, negotiation or implementation of several Canada-Manitoba-Winnipeg agreements, including the Core Area Initiative Agreement, the Agreement for Recreation and Conservation for the Red River Corridor (ARC), the Urban Transportation Assistance Program Agreement, and the more rece nt tri-level agreement respe cting the development of the North of Portage area. Before concl uding my open in g remarks , Mr.

Chairperson, I wish to reiterate the general policy approach of this govern ment in its dealings with the city. Insofar as a provincial statute creates the City of Winni peg and provides for a dir ect accountability between its citizens and its elected council, it is the policy of this Provincial Government to enhance that accountability wherever possible. But the province cannot Ignore the fact that the City of Winnipeg is the capital of this province and contains 60 percent of its population.

We have a very keen interest in the manner in which the City of Winnipeg develops, and the degree to which its city council provides those essen tial and desirable services to its citizens. In the past year the province has opened up new opportunities for city council to exercise its independent decision making process. As an example, we provided a financial incentive for the City of Winnipeg to moderate increases in its transit fares but left the decision to city council as to what those fares sho•Jid be.

The province does believe that there is a role for the Provincial Government in assisting the City of Winnipeg in achieving its objectives, particularly those in which the Province of Manitoba and the city share a priority. This assistance Is provided in two ways. First the province offers financial assistance to the city in respect of certain undertakings. In all instances, the city is free to accept or to reject that assistance.

We as a Provincial Government are prepared to defend in the Legislature the expen diture of tax revenue raised by the province for purposes of providing services and facilities in the city. The City of Winnip eg has the same res ponsibility for its expen diture and tax decisions. The second means of assisting the City of Winnip eg is the negotiation of int er-govern mental agreements involving the Government of Canada. This same role was seen to be a legitimate function by the pre vious provincial . administration when it negotiated the original Core Area Init iative Agreement.

The present adminis tration has progressed in that approach by negotiating the tri-level agreement respect ing the development of the North Portage area and the transfer of lands in the CNR East Yards from CN to Parks Canada. Mr. Chairperso n, that concludes my opening remarks. I wr Jld be happy to provide additional information and an: .er questions throughout our discussions. .• 11. CHAIR Mt.�: In accordance with customar y practice in this Commi ttee of Supp ly, the Chairperson now calls upon the leading opposition critic to give her rep ly to the opening statem ent.

The Member for Kirkfield Park - henceforth I will say K.P. A MEMBER: As in "duty" - I don't know if I like that too well - that's peeling potatoes. 1251

Morula,; 28 May, 1984 MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I have listened with great interest to the Minister talk about co­ operation with the City of Winnipeg and that it's their duty and policy to enhance the city, and that it contains 60 percent of the people. Well, in the last election the NDP certainly tried to run a slate, I think, I don't know if there were 29 councillors, but there was close to it, plus a mayor; they failed miserably in that and now, by funding, are planning to take over the function of the City of Winnipeg.

While we recognize that there are some projects that the city and province may wish to agree to share funding, such as, water main replacement, the Minister's intent, in a letter that she sent to the Mayor, indicated and I quote: "That I can also advise you of the province's intention to conditlonalize this $8,500,000 in the 1985 fiscal year" - this Is referring to the grants.

"During the next 10 months the city and province can enter Into discussions for the 1985 fiscal year that will relate this $8,500,000 to specific capital projects to be undertaken by the city." Now that can only be seen as an attempt to prop up this government's Image at the expense of the City of Winnipeg in what may well be an election year; that this Minister intends to pick and choose which community clubs, which arenas, which parks and playgrounds, which roads, will be upgraded or built is an insult to the taxpayers of the City of Winnipeg. lt is no wonder people are cynical about politicians.

Actions such as this can only lead to distress and frustration. We have 29 elected councillors who every year priorize the projects that need to be done. They are often trade­ oHs by community committees. These are the people who know what needs to be done this year or what can wait for two or three years. For this Minister to come along and say that the city and province can enter into discussions re specific public works projects. "But what happens if you don't do it my way?" says the Minister; "We'll withhold the grants." She indicated that in her opening statement, that they are there to accept or not accept.

So the proposed 1985 Conditional Grants Program is nothing but a giant pork barrel for this government to prop up their ailing fortunes, and the opposition will be watching where this money will be spent; and so I imagine will the press. I want to deal, again, with the taxes for the homeowners in Winnipeg. When this government campaigned, the Premier campaigned that he would ease the tax burden on the property owner and I'll use an example of the City of Winnipeg, the School Division No. 1, a home assessed at $7,000 - and we've often used this table but it gets worse every year.

Under four years of Progressive Conservative government the total increase was $78.00. We're into our third year of the NDP government and the total increase is now $298 approxima tely. The freeze is off Hydro so the homeowners are getting hit every which way and I don't consider this an example of great co-opera tion or helping the city taxpayers. One year ago our leader introduced a resolution that the Government of Manitoba protect the rights of the people of Winnipeg to an unpolluted water source without necessary cost to the taxpayer of Manitoba.

The Federal Government is holding hearings with regard to the 350 cottage and condo developments In Shoal Lake, but nowhere do we see that the Provincial Government is supporting the city who plan to oppose the development. Since this is an issue which will vitally affect the City of Winnipeg, we would hope that the province will strongly speak in favour of the city's position. I hope to ask the Minister a couple of questions on that later. Then we'll get to the former Deputy Minister, Mr.

David Sanders, the NDP candidate in the last election, where the Minister signed a two-year, no-cut contract to review The City of Winnipeg Act. He will receive over $66,000 a year with increases, use of a government car, four weeks vacation with pay. Mr. Sanders formed a consulting corporation while he was under this contract, or just shortly before, made a submission to the North Portage Development Corporation and when found out the Minister at first could see no conflict and at best, called it a fine line.

The Acting Minister indicated in the Minister of Urban Affairs' absence that he thought Sanders was in conflict. Now the Minister agrees that it is a conflict and since Mr. Sanders will be suggesting proposals to change The City of Winnipeg Act, to ensure - I believe this is the reason - councillors are responsive to the City of Winnipeg, I suggest that Mr. Sanders has lost all credibility and should be replaced. Then we come to the North of Portage Development.

I asked a question in the House about the Tonn Report ar:d the Minister Indicated that - and I'll quote her here - "The recommendations that have been made in the report and all of those recommendations may be made to fit very nicely together and the property owners and tenants that were allowed to appear before the inquiry officer may be very pleased with the result. lt will take consultation and there is a time allowed before the consultation." Rather than the Minister announcing to the House on Friday that they have chosen to not go along with the Tonn Report and go ahead with the expropriation, I understand that she gave a press release Friday afternoon - I've got an

article here from the paper - which indicates that she said the decision to go ahead was not taken lightly. Well certainly it was not, but it was a sham all the same. The province had already agreed to the development plan with the two other parties in the agreement, and for her to put the people in the downtown area, who are having problems enough, the business people, through this type of a sham I think is a disgrace. In this press report that I have here, it Ind icates that the owner of a clothing store said she wasn't surprised; the province's decision wasn't unexpected.

I think she could have saved a lot of time and probably heartache and money for some of these people because I am sure they hire lawyers to represent them In many cases. I think all in all the Minister should have come clean with the business people in that area to begin with and we wouldn't have had this problem and they would be a month into starting the development. MR. CHAIRMAN: At this point In time, the Chairperson calls upon the members of the departmental staff of the Department of Urban Affairs to take their respective places.

We shall also defer the consideration of the fi rst item in the Estimates, which relates to the Minister's Salary, 1252

...... , 28 ... ,. 1814 and proceed immediately to Item 1. (b)(1) and 1. (b)(2), Executive Support, Salaries, Other Expenditures. These two items, I suppose, are broad enough to include all those broad areas of concern so that questions that may not fall in any other specific item may be asked under this item. The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, where will we consider the North of Portage Development, the Core Area Agreement? MA. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. There is a question under what item we considered the North of Portage Agreement. HON. M.B.

DOLIN: I believe that could be considered at any place that the critic wishes to do, as long as there is a decision made that is considered in one place and not brought up all the way through. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes. MA. CHAIRMAN: If there is any place suitable, that will be right now in Item 1. (b)(1) and 1. (b)(2). MRS. G. HAMMOND: I will just ask the first question on this. Are there any changes in this first item as far as the Executive Support is concerned? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: There is a Communic ations Administrative Officer included in this area now and that person will be situated in the Deputy Minister's office, the time divided between communications and administration. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MA. G. MEACIEA: Could the Minister explain why the government appointed an inquir y officer into the expropriation North of Portage? What was the objective of that? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: The objective, certainly, of any inquiry officer is to gain as much information as possible from both sides, from the expropriating parties, from the parties to the expropriation, and from the owners of the property. In this particular case, the inquiry officer determined that it was wise to hear the views of the tenants as well since, I presume - and here I'm speaking I guess for the inquiry officer - that most of the buildings are occupied by tenants, as opposed to being owner occupied, so tenants were heard. I think that there certainly is an appropriateness to that.

The concerns that were raised will be dealt with and, in fact, we are pleased to have heard these concerns raised and they will be passed onto the North Portage Development Corporation and, in fact, already have been for their consideration and determination of how to handle these particular concerns. Had we had not had an inquiry there would have been no formal way of bringing those concerns forward publicly and referring them then to the corporation.

We might have thought we had covered everything off in our instructions to the corporation, but I believe that having the public hearings allowed us to know exactly what was of greatest concern to either the tenants or the owners and to pass along those concerns to the North Portage Development Corporation so that in their deliberations and in their plans they can address these concerns. MR. G. MEACIEA: Mr.

Chairman, does the Minister reject the inquiry officer's conclusion on Pages 86 and 87 of his report wherein he says: "lt is my conclusion that the expropriation of the specific lots which are subject to objection is not fair and reasonably necessary in order to achieve the objectives of the expropriation authority." Does she reject that conclusion and on what basis? Obviously she's rejected it. HON. M.B. DOLIN: If I can read to you from the Province of Manitoba Confirming Order signed by the Honourable A.R.

Adam - "The confirming authority" and this is a quote from the central part of it I should say, "The confirming authority is not in agreement with the report and is of the opinion that the objectives of the unanimous shareholders' agreement between Canada, Manitoba and the City of Winnipeg and the North Portage Development Corporation, dated December 16, 1983, cannot be Met, and the final concept and financial plan dated March 26, 19 84, cannot be initiated without first expropriating all of the lands contained in the Declaration of Expropriation which is attached hereto and marked Exhibit A." I think that should answer the question.

MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr. Chairman, the power of expropriation is an awesome power that government holds and it should never be used in any high-handed manner. The inquiry officer has said on Page 89, "In my view, this concept of fairness requires that the individual land owner who is faced with expropriation ought to be in a position where he can be confronted with the proposed use to which his property is sought to be put and gi ven an opportunity to convince the expropriating authority that objective can be accomplished in some manner that will not require the expropriation of his property.

In this inquiry, such a scenario was not possible." Mr. Chairman, is not the Minister concerned with the process of expropriation in this case, where there is no, where she today can't tell the owners when they will be expropriated, when they will have to leave their stores or what will exist in the area after redevelopment? I've gone through this report, Mr. Chairman, and when you read through the

summary of the concerns expressed by the ind ividuals who appear before the inGuir y officer, all of which appear to be well-meaning, we •• -int ended people, operating, in one instance, the Juni or Achievement of Manitoba, for example, who are extremely concerned with having to move from this area, and business people, all of whom are operating successfully and are being expropriated with a large degree of uncertainty over there head, is she not concerned with the process of expropriation that is taking place in this matter? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr. Chairperson, I can only repeat that the decision was not taken lightly . If the member 1253

Monday, 28 May, 1884 will recall, the Federal Government and the City of Winnip eg, the other two shareholders, before we had made our decision with regard to the outcome of the inquiry with regard to expropriation, before the province had done that, had publicly stated that they understood the pro blems in volved, that the conc erns of the individual lessees, lessors, property owners, etc., could be met. They felt that they could be met in other ways and that expropriation had to take place in order to have the North of Portage Dev elopment continue.

Certainly with the example that the member gives, of the Junior Achievement Office, there is no reason in the world, to my mind, that the Junior Achieveme nt Office could not be located in some part of the office space that is pla nned for the North Portage Dev elopment. I really fail to see how, other than the disruption of a temporary office, perhaps while there's construction going on, why they couldn't negotiate with the North Portage Development Corporation to be included in the retail or office space. The same thing is true of the other retail outlets.

I would think that their busi ness could only impr ove in new surroundings, new and enhanced surroundings, and I don't believe that the enha ncement of those surroundings should be delayed, should be stopped until one or the other of them, who may not agree with this redev elopment, although I haven't heard any really good reaso ns not to proceed, so that one of them can hold it up.

You have to have a mass of land and I'm sure that the knowledge of busine ss that is claimed - and I think probably justifiably claimed - by the opposition members would tell them that in a three-block area, that's not very much land in the first place and you must have it to negotiate with when you are talking to development companies who wish to come in and construct retail space, office space, parking garages, certainly the all-climate connections between these. You must have at least have that three-block space to deal with. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the estimated cost of expropriati on? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: In the range of $25 million to $35 million, I believe. MR. G. MERCIER: What is going to replace the existing businesses? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I wonder if the member has received the Final Concept Financial Plan for North Portage Redeve lopment. If you would like, I can go through the various portions of that report, but I don't know that is what he wants me to do. Perhaps he could clarify the question. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, when does the Minister anticipate construction of new buildings to be taking place? HON. M.B. DOLIN: By the spring, next spring. MR. G. MERCIER: What project would that be? HON.

M.B. DOLIN: I ·can't tell you which project that would be. lt will depend on the deli berations of the North Portage Dev elopment Corporation, but there are certainly portions of the dev elopment that can begin within a year. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Are there any dev elopments that are slated to go in at this time, in any specific area? HON. M.B. DOLIN: There have been suggestions made, as the member knows, by the North Portage Corporation.

The North Portage Corporation did not have the power to finalize those arrangements until the agreement was signed by the three shareholders turning over responsibil ity to the corporation, so they had to come in with a plan. We had to agree to the plan - all three levels of government - and following that they would then have the authority to firm up the various offers they have.

Their problem right now, as I understand it, is that they have far too many offers for the amount of land they have available and it's going to be a matter of picking and choosing and gett ing the best possible mix of various portions of this, whether it's ret ail or office or residential or the connecting passageways or parking and so, to get the best possible mix that they can.

They have more - and more by way of interest in the area - than they have land to provide to the various groups so I would hope that they would proceed quickly; but of course they've had to wait for our decision as well, so as my answer in the House, as between Friday and Monday, I haven't heard anything but I wouldn't expect they would have met over the weekend, so they will have to meet and now proceed with their negotiations, with the hiring of consultants, architects and various other people. Now they have the power to do that. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: The cost of expropriation, I believe the high cost was $39 million was indicated . Is there any possibility that it may go over that and if there is, will there have to be more money put in by the three parties to the agreement? HON. M.B. DOLIN: To give you the specific financial arrangement, if you will, perhaps it will clarify the issue, each party to the agreement contributed $22 million, the Federal Government, the Provincial Government and the City of Winnipeg; 5 million came from the Core Area Agreement, and then there is borrowing power that the corporation has if it needs it.

The Core Area Agreement, of course, was signed sometime ago during the last government, I believe, the Member for St. Norbert was the signator on that. This is really a part of the whole core area redevel opment. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I believe my question was, if it goes over the 39 million will they have to go and get extra money from somewhere? HON. M.B. DOLIN: That decision would have to be up to the North Portage Development Corporation. That corporation you remember was made up of three representatives appointed by each of the shareholder groups and a chairperson who is accepted by all three. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: For the Kennedy Street businesses, and some of the others, especially maybe 1254

..,..., 28 ... , 1114 one or two who will be expropriated for the second time, what kind of consideration Is being given to these people to make sure that they end up not on the short end of the stick. HON. M.B. DOLIN: I would have to refer the member to The Expropration Act, and that determines how people are expropriated and so on. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is there going to be any special consideration given to these businesses; they're viable businesses and I'm sure the city is getting tax money from them.

I'm just wondering what consideration is going to be given, if they will be among the first to have a plan set up for? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I can't assure the member of the order in whic h people will be relocated or any determination will be made. What I can assure the member, as indicated in the press release, Is that we have asked the North Portage Development Corporation to develop a relocation policy. I have no reason to believe that they would do otherwise.

I believe that they will develop a relocation policy and that it will take into consideration the items mentioned by the Member for Kirkfield Park, as well as by myself. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the total estimated expenditure by the corporations in this north of Portage Avenue area, from the province . . . ? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I gave you the breakdown. $22 million from each of the shareholders, plus $5 million from the core area, and then borrowing authority if they need it - limited borrowing authority - but they do have some borrowing authority.

I can't really be much more specific because they haven't begun to literally spend their money yet. MR.. G. MERCIER: The Minister can't give us any further idea as to how the monies will be expended, other than the amount that's allocated for acquisition of lands which is somewhere between 25 and 39 million. HON. M.B. DOLIN: I'm not sure that I would be answering the member's question. The expropriation costs of course must be spent out of that. Are you talking about any expenditures beyond that that I may be aware of?

Other than their administrative costs they have to have meetings and they have to have a secretary and so on. Is that what you're asking about - the additional costs? MR. G. MERCIER: Yes. HON. M.B. DOLIN: That's up to the corporation. I understand they will be hiring a consultant. I couldn't tell you anymore about that; they have the authority to do that and to expedite the process by which they work. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, do the businesses that are south of Portage have any consideration in this development at all? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: I am aware that the corporation has taken into consideration the effect on the building south of Portage and I believe that they have - staff can correct me if I'm wrong - I believe they have spoken to a number of them. So the planning is being done with that in mind, the effect it will have on south of Portage, how there might be a connection to the south of Portage and so on, so that we don't, of course, have an isolated th ree-block area that doesn't relate to anything else. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, the Federal Research Centre that's being built, I believe, on the St.

Paul's College grounds, it was indicated at one time that is a facility that should be built where other like facilities could be built, or facilities or businesses that could use the centre, does the St. Paul's College grounds have adequate land space? HON. M.B. DOLIN: You mean for the building that they're building. MRS. G. HAMMOND: No, for othdr buildings other than that.

I was under the impression that when this research centre was being built that it's a good idea to have space so that other research, like the science centre that's being thought of, would be close to this centre; is there room for the science centre? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: it would really be up to the Federal Government whether they would extend the plan that they have for the research facility that you're talking about or to what I think you are referring to, as sort of a hands on publicly available building or area. lt would be up to the Federal Government if they wanted to do that in that space, and there is some land adjacent to where they are building that could be used. That certainly would be determined by them. This Is a federal project that you're talking about and I don't have the details of it. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Who made the decision to build the research centre on the St. Paul's College grounds? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The Federal Government owned that land, it was CBC land, so they built it on their own land. MRS. G. HAMMOND: So they made the decision then that that was outside of the Core Agreement then. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Yes, certainly outside of the North of Portage Agreement. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Would we deal with the Logan Industrial Park under the Core or would that come down under urban? MR.

CHAIRMAN: it will be under Urban Policy Branch so we can pass this item. 1255

Monday, 28 May, 1984 The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister indicated at the beginning that this might be a good area ... MR. CHAIRMAN: That's right . MR. G. MERCIER: . . . to raise a number of individual subjects as long as they weren't raised again at least in the same context. Mr. Chairman, the Minister has referred to The City of Winnipeg Act Review. Could she advise us as to the status of that? Will there be a committee appointed, for example? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Yes, I am not sure this is the place for it but I have no problem with answering the question at this point.

The City of Winnipeg Act Review Committee has been very nearly appointed for some time. We would like to see the inclusion of someone from the additional zone who has some experience with that area and can relate, perhaps, on a more personal and experiential level to those questions that may arise with regard to the additional zone. We are waiting for the appointment of that person. We thought we had someone appointed but the city determined that there would be a conflict of interest for this person so we have had to look for a replacement. MR. G. MERCIER: How many persons will be on this committee? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: There will be five. MR. G. MERCIER: Will they hold public hearings? HON. M.B. DOLIN: That is my understand ing. Of course, they haven't been appointed yet but that's certainly the plan that we have for them. They, in being recruited, understand that so I think I can say with some assurance that they will. MR. G. MERCIER: What will they be paid? How much will they be paid? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The final information, until the Order-in-Council is passed, I think is subject to that Order-in-Council, and that would be available when we finally get the committee appointed.

I must say that 1 am as impatient as the members, indicating to me they are with this, but we did have the problem of thinking that we had a committee, having the city indicate that one of the members didn't meet with their approval, the one that we asked them about and, therefore, we have had to replace that member. it is not as easy to find a member who has experience with the additional zone as it might be to replace a member with some other kind of experience, there aren't that many people out there. MR. G.

MERCIER: What specific areas is the Minister concerned with in The City of Winnipeg Act that she wishes to have reviewed? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I wish to have the entire act reviewed. The government wishes to have the entire act reviewed, that is the task of this review committee. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Minister dissatisfied with the entire act? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I am not indicating dissatisfaction with the entir e act, nor am I implying that on behalf of my colleagues but, whenever you review

an act, I am sure the members know that one

section relates to another and, if you change one section, you have to perhaps change several others that relate to it. In order to do that one must look at the whole, not at the parts as separate entities. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, surely the Minister, or the government, must have some overriding concerns with respect to The City of Winnipeg Act to want to embark upon a review by a committee of five to retain Mr. Sanders at his salary scale to chair this review, to go on with public hearings which will be costly and which will involve a report.

Surely the review of The City of Winnipeg Act may be one of the greatest job creation projects NDP Governments have ever had because they just seem to go on and on and on doing this. Now, surely the Minister or the government must have some serious concerns or reservations about portions of the act, or some significant changes she wants looked at. HON. M.B.

DOLIN: lt will have been 12 years from the last review by the time this review is received by the government and studied - or 10 years, I guess I should say it finished - 1976 to 1986, actually, by the time the review is completed and decisions are taken on it. Certainly, the people of Winnipeg, the people of Manitoba, have indicated to this government, and 1 believe even to the last government, that there were areas where they thought improvements could be made, or they thought something should be changed. it is timely to have a review.

Those areas of the act, just as in any other review, that are still appropriate and do not need to be changed certainly will not be changed, but if there is a feeling among the citizens of this province, and particularly the citizens of this city, that there are improvements that can be made, then I expect that is what the Committee of Review will advise us of and that is what we are hoping for. As you asked before, public hearings, yes, we expect and intend that there will be public hearings.

We want the public to have the chance, both as groups and as individuals, to indicate to the Review Committee their particular concerns and we expect that the Review Committee will then report to us with an indication of what should be retained, what should be changed, what modifications might be made. I don't think a 10 -year period is too short a period to do that. Certainly in my experience with curriculum in the educational spheres, 10 years meant a review was long overdue so one would certainly want to take a look at any act that hadn't been reviewed for quite a while, I would think. MR. G.

MERCIER: Could the Min ister indicate whether she Is Interested in considering a reduction In the 1256

numb er of councillors, or embarking upon more of a two-tiered system of government with more responsibility for expenditur es in local areas? Is she interested in reviewing those types of areas? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I am interested in hearing the report of the Review Committee. I am not interested in any particular format or structure or arrangment for the City of Winnipeg and, quite frankly I don't think it's appropriate that I do become involved in that. I might say that I don't even have the time to become involved in building a model city.

We have a city that already exists; we have a structure that already exists. What we are talking about is re viewing that, reviewing the fin ancial arrangements as well as the structure, reviewing the entir e City of Winnipeg Act as it relates to the City of Winnipeg and the province in its helping role and I will form opinions, as will my colleagues, upon receipt of the report of the Committee of Review. MA. G. MEACIEA: One last question, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister indicate how long this review will carry on and wha1 amount of money will be budgeted for it? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: I believe that the deadline, if I can use that word, that we have indicated for the Committee of Review for report ing to the government is August of 1985. So it's about a year -and-a-half or a ye ar-and­ a-quarter. MA. G. MERCIEA: What is the budget? HON. M.B. DOLIN: For the first 12 months, some of which has already expired of course, $1 92,000 is in our Estimates for that Committee of Review. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MA. W. STEEN: Ye s, through you, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. Further to questions that my colleague from St.

Norbert had regard ing this review committee, there are two areas often referred to by the taxpayers at the urban level, and that is the day-to-day service that the city delivers to them; then you often hear the people from what I call the creative world, the developers and the contractors who are trying to build and make Winnip eg a better place, say there's a lot of red tape in regard to the City of Winnip eg and with Un icity , we have a very cum bersome city with a bureaucracy that sometimes is difficult to get through. I guess with largeness, you do get this.

I was wondering if, in her appointment of members to the committee, she would be co�sidering some persons that have worked within the city, persons such as Dune Lennox, a former city solicitor; or maybe someone who has left the city in very recent times, taken retirement, who may have worked in the planning and zoning fiel ds - that see ms to be a very cumbersome area. Perhaps one person on her committee might be a former senior City of Winnipeg emplo yee who has had to administer this 10- year-old act that the Minister refers to. HON. M.B.

DOLIN:• Certainly both the areas that the member mentioned are worthy of review, that's just a part of the reason why this undertaking is going forward. I will take his suggestions into consideration at this point. That's about all I can say. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I asked a question in the House a while back - I think around the end of April - to the Acting Minister, about the changes to The City of Wi•mip eg Act, with reference to the pension that the government gave the powers to council to set its own pension.

The question that certainly we've been asked very often, and I'm sure the Minister has been pe titioned - are they going to bring in legislation to curtail or elimina te the pension? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I think that the member is aware of the comments I made at the opening of this Session, where we talked about the accountability of council members to their electorate. We still feel very strongly that that accountability must be taken into consideration.

Normally the setting of salaries, benefits and so on, is handle d by elected members in whatever way they wish, whether it's by an independent board, whether it's by self-determ ination, but they have to answer to their electorate for that. The petition that the member refers to is, as I understand it, still being circulated. I would hope that it would be presented to city council members because I believe that is the group that made the initia l determination and that would be the group that would be most im pressed by whatever the results of the petition happened to be. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: The Minister, I take it, said no. MA. CHAIRMAN: In short, that's what she said. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I have a further question about the other possible change and that might be to the ref erendum that they changed. Is there any thought to changing the refer endum, that part of the act, to elimin ate it? HON. M.B. DOLIN: To my knowledge that discussion has not been held. MA. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, on the same subject of the City of Winnipeg Act, could the Minister indicate whether or not the ward boundaries will be reviewed in this review of The City of Winnipeg Act because of the existing inequities in populations in wards? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I would think that is one of the things that the committee would look at. They would first look at whether they want to talk on ward bOl: daries and if they did, they would then proceed. I gL-.:SS we would have to wait and see whether they determine that that was appropriate. 1257 MA. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I believe The City of Winnip eg Act provides . . . HON. M.B. DOLIN: For a ward boundaries committee, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: . . . for what I think would be a separate committee to review ward boundaries. I think

MondaJ, 28 May, 1984 it wasn't done prior to the last election - maybe the last two elections - but that is one area that deserves consideration before the next civic election. I ask the Minister what she intends to do. HON. M.B. DOLIN: I would think similar to the provincial - every 10 years look at boundaries. Before the next civic election it would be almost that same amount of time. I would think the member would be correct in thinking that we ought to be looking at that but whether it will proceed simultaneously and parallel to a review of the act itself, I really couldn't say at this point. MR. G.

MERCIER: As to the last comment, it wouldn't really be necessary for it to proceed until perhaps the fall of 1985 or early 1986 I think, in preparation for the next civic election. The Minister may not be in a position of authority at that time but if she is, I hope she will undertake the review. HON. M.B. DOLIN: lt was a comment and certainly no decision has been taken on it yet but I suspect that we will be looking at it. We will certainly take your remarks into consideration. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I have a question about the French Language Services in the City of Winnipeg.

Has the SFM approached the Minister or the government to help them get more services from the city? HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, they've made no presentation to me or to my Deputy. MR. G. MERCIER: Has the Minister had any further conversations with Mr. Sanders to explain to him that he cannot become involved with the North of Portage Development Corporation in any way whatsoever? HON. M.B. DOLIN: There has been correspondence from myself to Mr. Sanders indicating the difficulty and in fact, the peril of that particular situation. To my knowledge nothing more has developed in that area at all.

I have heard nothing more either from the corporation or from Mr. Sanders that anything has proceeded. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, has the Minister asked the North of Portage Development Corporation not to deal with Mr. Sanders? HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, I haven't. MR. G. MERCIER: Why not? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I don't believe that it is the prerogative of one shareholder, first of all, to direct the corporation. Secondly, I believe and have great faith and trust in both the chairperson and the members of the corporation that they know exactly what they're doing and with whom they're dealing.

They have been doing this sort of thing for a long time, that Is, dealing with developers and entrepreneurs and so on, and they will make appropriate decisions. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, it is not the North of Portage Development Corporation's responsibility to settle the conflict of interest matters within the Provincial Government; it is the Minister's responsibility. I'd ask her what steps she is taking to ensure that in the event that Mr.

Sanders proceeds to attempt to do business with the North of Portage Development Corporation that she will be informed and be in a position to, at the very least, cancel his contract immediately. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr. Sanders is aware of the conflict of interest guidelines that this province has adopted, and it is Mr. Sanders's responsibility to live by those conflict of interest guidelines. I certainly don't run around the country telling all kinds of people not to deal with Mr.

Sanders or with any other person who is involved with the Civil Service, it is up to the people themselves to not make these kinds of contractual arrangements. You don't warn off any potential groups that might deal with him, you do it from the other side, the other end, and that in fact has been done as I mentioned through correspondence and discussion with Mr. Sanders, basically through written correspondence so there is a written record of this. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, in a news report in the Free Press of March 12th, Mr.

Naimark, President of the North Portage Development Corporation, is quoted as saying, "Whether Mr. Sanders is in a conflict of interest is something the Provincial Government has to decide." That 's why I said it's the Provincial Government has to deal with this matter, not the corporation. Further, Mr. Sanders is quoted as saying he has no intention of giving up either the contract - I assume referring to the contract with the Provincial Government - or his interest in the private development company which has proposed a comprehensive lease agreement with the North Portage Development Corporation. Mr.

Chairman, I think the Minister has to do more than write a letter to Mr. Sanders; she is going to have to get some confirmation from him that he Is not going to be a part of any private corporation that does busine ss with the Nor th Portage Development Corporation. She has to get actively Involved to make sure this doesn't happen, or cancel his contract. HON. M.B. DOLIN: As I have said, I have Indicated publicly that, should Mr.

Sanders conclude a contract with the North Portage Development Corporation, that we would find that he was in a conflict of interest situation, but I can hardly tell the North Portage Development Corporation not to open their mail. That is what has happened, there has been a proposal submitted, they have received that proposal. To my knowledge there has been no contract between Mr. Sanders and the North Portage Development Corporation.

As I have indicated publicly again, and 1 will say it once more, that should that happen this government feels that there would be a conflict of interest and would proceed on that basis with whatever actions it felt were appropriate. MR. G. MERCIER: How will the Minister know whether Mr. Sanders does business with the North Portage Development Corporation? 1258

HON. M.B. DOLIN: I would certainly have to, I suppose, research that question but I can't imagine how you would do business secretly in the middle of downtown Winnip eg. Contracts such as that are not signed in secret, to my knowledge. MR. G. MERCIER: How do you know they haven't signed any yet? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Exactly, that's exactly the point. I personally, do not believe they will. As I said, I believe that the North Portage Development Corporation Directors understand the situation; I believe that Mr. Sanders now understands the situation. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, the Mini ster appears reluctant to ensure that Mr. Sanders will not be doing busi ness with the North Portage Development Corporation. They will not be doing business openly on Portage Avenue. We don't know whether their contracts or their hirings are going to be made public. The Mini ster and the other levels of government have indi cated that this is almost a private corporation that has been set up to admini ster the program in accordance with the wishes of the three levels of government. Why has the Mi nister not asked Mr.

Sanders to confirm to her in writing, that he will not be a part of any private corporation doing business with the North Portage Development Corporation, that he has no interest in any contracts with that corporation? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Since there is no conflict in Mr. Sanders establishing a consulting firm or being a part of a consulting firm, certainly that is not a conflict. lt is only a conflict when that consulting firm gets a contr act, or has a contract, that is based on prior knowledge - which is what we're talking about - knowledge that he has of the North Portage area and the plans for it.

I'm wondering what the member is asking me to do, specifically. 1 think the member asked earlier that I tell the North Portage Development Corporation not to have anything to do with him, and that is not appropriate. I believe he asked me whether Mr. Sanders was in fact in conflict, and that is not the case because no contract has been signed, certainly to my knowledge.

And then he asked me how I would find out if one was, and the information I would have to give him there is that the North Portage Development Corporation very clearly listed every single person or group from whom it received a proposal, no matter how small or how large. I have no reason to think that they wouldn't continue to do so. Certainly it is not an area that I'm not going to keep watching, I certainly am, but we have made the rules clear.

To this point no one has pursued anything that would break the rules, and I simply have to proceed on that basis, to watch the situation and to act if anything further develops. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I think I and other mem bers of the operation and members of the public, are simply seeking confirmation that Mr.

Sanders, who has ente red in to a cont ract with the Provincial Government for an annual salary of $66,600, ind exed in accordance with salary in creases, who has all government benefits plus a personal vehicle; works full­ time for the Provincial Government, does not engage in private business interests, particularly those about which he has previous and inside knowledge. Mr. Sanders has indicated in news reports that the private company of which he is a part has proposed a comprehensive lease agreement with the North Portage Development Corporation. Could she tell us if Mr.

Sanders has withdrawn that proposed lease agreement from consideration by the North of Portage Development Corporation? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I don't have that information but I can assure the member that an audit of the North Portage Development Corporation, which they would have to go through, would certainly disclose whether any further contract had been signed, at some future · date. I don't know whether Mr. Sanders has withdra wn his offer. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, will the Minister then undertake to enquir e as to whether or not Mr.

Sanders has withdrawn the proposed lease agreement with the North Portage Development Corporation, and if he has not, will she termina te his contract? HON. M.B. DOLIN: There is no conflict of Interest yet. I think the member should be clear on that. The conflict of int erest would occur if Mr. Sanders signs an agreement or a contra ct with the North Portage Development Corporation because that's what we have indicated would be a conflict of interest under our new guidelin es. Mr.

Sanders' contract that he has with the government, which by the way has been quoted in great detail by many members in the opposition, is exactly the same, basically, as his Deputy Minis ter's salary and benefits; his contract calls for disclosure, so if he were to proceed in any way that might be a conflict, it would have to be dis closed. If it wasn't disclosed he would be breaking his contract with us and we would then proceed on the basis of that infractio n. MR. G. MERCIER: Did Mr. Sanders disclose his interest in this corporation before proposing the lease agreement? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Yes, he did.

He indicated to me that he was sending a proposal to the North Portage Development Corporation. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the Mini ster agree or is she of the view that the proposed comprehensive lease agreement with the North Portage Development Corporation for the financing, design, construction, ongoing operation and management of all components of the final concept plan does not involve Mr. Sanders iu a conflict of interest position with the government? MR.

CHAIRMAN: There is a rule here under which we operate. lt says that no question can be asked as to what advice a Mi nister proposes to give, but may ask what advice the Min ister has already given. HON. M.B. DOLIN: In response to that and following on that, I have ind icated that having heard from Mr. 1259

Monday, 28 May, 1984 Sanders that he had sub mitted such a proposal to the North Portage Development Corporation, then indications of what would be a conflict of interest - and remembe r, our conflict of interest guidelines were adopted at about that time - that was made public by both myself and the previous Minister. As far as either of us knows, and I think I can speak with great certainty on this, there has been no contract signed between North Portage Development Corporation and Mr. Sanders. I, personal ly, would find it very difficult to believe that a small company such as Mr.

Sanders himself and perhaps one other person - I'm not even sure - could do such an immense design, so I really am not terribly worried that th e North Portage Development Corporation is going to sign a contract with David Sanders and we would have a conflict of interest situation. I think we are talking about a hypothetical case. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has told us that she doesn't know whether the proposed lease agreement has been withdrawn by Mr. Sanders. I've asked her now whether the proposed comprehen sive lease agreement would put Mr. Sanders in a conflict of interest position.

I think that's a reasonable question and she should be able to provide us with an answer. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the member's question, on Beauchesne Rule 357 (1 )(m), asks a solution of a legal proposition, such as interpr etat ion of a statute - like conflict of interest statute - and such kind of question, asking for a legal solution to a legal problem may not be asked. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister tell us if she's examined this proposed agreement and whether or not it involves Mr. Sanders in a conflict of interest position? MR.

CHAIRMAN: Again there is a rule which says a question which requires an answer involving legal opinion, that's not an appropriate kind of question that should be asked. it's against the rule in 358 (1 )(c). The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I suppose you can bring up all the rules you want to protect the Minister, but we have a situation here, where she hasn't asked him to withdraw, she hasn't asked him to confirm that he will no longer do business with the North of Portage Dev elopment Corporation.

There's been no review of this proposal to determine whether or not it puts him a conflict of interest position. In the meanwhile he's making $66,600 per year plus all government benefits and using a gover nment car. The Minister told us earlier she's going to leave it up to the North Portage Development Corporation, when Mr. Naimark rightly has said whether Mr. Sanders is in a conflict of interest is something the Provincial Government has to decide. When is the Minister going to get actively involved in this case and satisfy the public interest in this case? There have been too many instances . . . HON. M.B.

DOLIN: If the memb er wishes to be hypothetical, I can certainly proceed on that basis. If Mr. Sanders signs a contract based on his proposal or any other proposal with the No rth Portage Devel opment Corporation, Mr. Sanders knows that the province will consider him to be in conflict of interest. We will then proceed on that basis. Mr. Sanders may consider that he is not in conflict of interest and may choose to fight that decision, to appeal it, to take it to court, to follow whatever rights he has under the law; but he knows that the province would consider him to be in conflict of interest .

I don't know what more I can say on that point to the member to assure him that everybody knows where everyo ne else is at and we are proceed ing on that basis. Nothing more has happened so therefore no fur ther action has been taken. MR. CHAIRMAN: I have to intervene here. The Minister is saying "If" and then a statem ent and that's a hypothetical situation. In fact, it's answering a hypothetical que stion and that's against the rule. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, Mr.

Sanders is apparently employed to review The City of Winnipeg Act and has done so under his contract since November 9, 1983. Is he provided with secre tarial and office space in addition to the other benefits under his contract? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The office space is a part of the office space to be provided for the support staff for the review committee and that is the same support staff that would be responding to the needs of Mr. Sande rs. MR. G. MERCIER: Has the Minister received any reports from Mr. Sanders on his review of The City of Winnipeg Act? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Ye s, from time to time.

We meet regularly and I do receive reports on the work of Mr. Sanders. Some of this has involved a great deal of rese arch, job descriptions for the STEP students that are hired as part of this program. The research is ongoing and the job descriptions and the type of research done has been a subject of our conversations and reporting periods. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , is the Minis ter satisfied that Mr.

Sanders is working full time for the province as requir ed by the contract while at the same time he is proposing a comprehensive lease agreement with the North of Portage Dev elopment Corporation for the financing, design, construction and ongoing operation in management of all components of the final concept plan? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I'm not sure I heard the very last part of the member's question. But yes, in fact 1 am assured that Mr.

Sanders is doing the job as outlined by myself and the Deputy and he is reporting to us at regular intervals and is working, shall we say, the normal hours of any employee of the government. What he does on his own time is his own business. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I have one que stion on Mr. Sa nders. What is the penalty if he is found in conflict? 1260

Mond8J, 28 M•J, 1984 MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that a question that asks again for a legal opinion? MRS. G. HAMMOND: Well, I wouldn't think so. I would think if the guidelin es are set down there must be some answers. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Ye s, there are some answers and that's the problem. There are several steps that could be taken and I would think that the determ ination would have to be made not only by myself but by my colleagues as well. The Deputy Minister is the person directly responsible for reporting or deter mining the situation.

If the member will wait just a moment we have the conflict of interest guidelines here. I believe the member probably has a copy as well, but we'll quote the relevant part. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think it is in the interests of the public that we have a record of what will happen. HON. M.B.

DOLIN: I wonder If the members are satisfied with what it does say in the conflict of interest guidelines, that disciplinary action will be taken and that there is an appeal process available to the employee when such discipline comes forward. lt does not define the discipline because, of course, the incident of conflict of interest may be as widely divergent as the members of the Civil Service that we have and their own personal activities. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, did Mr. Sanders make a report on the report of Mr. Tonn, the inquiry officer? HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, I have received nothing of that sort.

I'm not sure why the question. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I just have a further comment on Mr. Sanders and the conflict of interest. I would think that whether you had guidelines or not - I don't think you need guidelines for the type of conflict that Mr. Sanders is certainly allowing hims elf to be in. As the Minister had said before, there's a fine line. I don't think it's a fine line. I think he stepped well over it and the Minister should take action in this case and make sure that he does not sign a contract because I think that is just beyond all levels of reason or propriety in deali ng.

Here is a man who has, right from th e beg inning, been in on the Core Area development, knows every part of it, and is allowed to be in this situation while under contract with the government. I think the Minister is comple tely out of line by not pursuing this any further and just leave it up in the air and say, well we'll wait until it happens, Is simply not good enough. I wanted to ask a question . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: I gave you the last say. HON. M.B. DOLIN: That doesn't mean it's correct. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: . . . on the free trade zone that the mayor had suggested for the City of Winnip eg and to see if the province was giving any help to the city as far as petitioning the Federal Government to establish Winnip eg as a free trade zone. HON. M.B. DOLIN: That is a matter between the City of Winnipeg, the mayor and his desire for a free trade zone for Winnipeg, and the Federal Government. The Federal Government Is of course, the only authority that can deal with that. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wasn't suggesting that the Minister sign the agreement.

I was suggesting that she petition the Federal Government, in fact help the City of Winnip eg to establish a free trade zone here especially when we now have the situation In, I believe it's Grand Forks, that's a free trade zone. Is the province doing anything to help them or is it another Shoal Lake situation where we just lie back and leave the city to fight it's own battle? MR. CHAIRMAN: This is a matter within the jurisdiction of the Federal Government. I don't think the Provincial Government . . . HON. M.B. DOLIN: Excuse me, Mr.

Chairperson, I do believe that the Department of Industr y, Tr ade and Tec hnology is looking at this situation. lt's not one in which we would make a determination but we might become Involved in a co-operative way with the other departments should they proceed . But that in no way indicates that I agree with the member with regard to her remarks on Shoal Lake. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b X1) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I asked the Minister a que stion at the end of question period which she referred to Estimates.

She said in a letter to the city that as a condition of the 1984 Transit Operating Grant, recognition of the provincial contribution to the operation of the Winnipeg Transit will be required. The specific req uirements for identification of provincial assistance will be confirmed shortly with the city. What sort of self-serving advert ising is the province requesting and at what cost to the city? MR. CHAIRMAN: A question should not be framed so . as to suggest its own answer. That is according to Rule 358. MR. G. MERCIER: Perhaps we could judge that better after the answer . HON. M.B.

DOLIN: I want to thank the member for making the answer easier if he's giving it to me, although I may not agree with it. Actually, I believe the question should be asked under the Urban Policy

section where we deal with transit grants and so on but in fact, the short answer is that it's a little decal that goes onto the bus indicating that the province is a part of the purchase of that bus. After all, we're paying for half of them. If it just says City of Winnipeg, nobody ever knows. MR. G. MERCIER: Is that all that the province has so far asked for? 1261

Monday. 28 May, 1984 HON. M.B. DOLIN: There's one on the outside of the doors of the buses that are purchased, I believe, and then there's a little decal that goes behind the driver in some of the other buses. I would have to wait until we got to that section. I found the appropriate paper to tell you exactly which decal went in which place, but it's not a major, great, expensive attachment to the buses. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Would they be wearing caps that indicate that they're . . . HON. M.B. DOLIN: Only if I can have one, too. I'll add it to my collection.

No, to answer seriously, I have no knowledge of anybody wearing any caps saying - I don't know what they would say - that half-and-half province and city, or something like that, no. I have indicated what the designation will be, and it's a small sign in the form of a decal which you can put onto these vehicles, which simply Indicates that part of the transportation grant for this is made by the Province of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolseley. MS. M. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

I would just like to add to that, having returned from Toronto and ridden on the subway where every single subway car has a decal that notes the contribution to the Toronto Transit System by the Province of Ontario; so it's not an unusual situation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I wanted to ask the Minister a question about Shoal Lake. I had referred to it in my opening statement. Is the government taking the part of the city? Are they going to speak on behalf of the city, as well, as far as the development in Shoal Lake? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: By way of explanation, the Minister of Environment's deputy is the person who is taking the lead within this committee and in the sort of round robin chairing, Is the person who takes his turn chairing the meetings. Certainly, the province has not backed off from any of its responsibilities with regard to this area. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is the Minister saying then, that the Minister of Environment is where this question should be asked? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I certainly don't want to say that we don't have any interest.

My deputy attends as an observer at these meetings, and I am not sure, but he may occasionally even take part, I don't know if he's said anything lately. The Minister of the Environment is the lead ministry in this area because the provincial concerns, with regard to the whole Shoal Lake issue, are particularly those of the environment, and water being one of them, of course. Somebody has to take the lead and that is where we have decided the lead will be. We do attend, however, as observers and offer assistance wherever possible. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Possibly the Minister could give us a list of all the different departments that we might find the answers as far as urban affairs and the City of Winn ipeg are concerned. There seems to be a very narrow line that the department has charge of, but I would think that if the Deputy Minister is attending the meetings that he might have some idea, through you and through the Chair, whether the province is planning to speak in favour of the city's position as far as Shoal Lake and the cottage development is concerned. HON. M.B.

DOLIN: With regard to the first comments by the member there are two areas that are handled definitely by other departments as the lead authorities. Water quality happens to be an environmental issue; it is most appropriately led by the Department of the Environment, therefore. lt doesn't mean that we don't have a close co-operative approach to the entire issue. The other area is expropriation which is handled under The Expropriations Act which is part of the responsibility of the Department of Government Services.

So those two areas, with regard to their legalities and so on, are handled as responsibilities of the two departments I have just mentioned. I don't know what great wealth of other areas the member refers to as not being those for which we can answer. MA. G. MERCIEA: Mr. Chairman, does the Minister support the letter written by the Chie f City Commissioner , Mr.

Diakiw, to the Indian Affairs Department and Shoal Lake Indian Band No. 40, which says that the bid for a road supposedly to a proposed garbage disposal site is a ruse to secure the first leg of a road to the Trans-Canada Highway which would open the area for cottage development and which would, explicitly or implicitly, affect the quality of the water supply to the City of Winnipeg. HON. M.B. DOLIN: I am sorry for the delay. I was getting caught up on the last meeting or so of the Shoal Lake group. MR. G. MERCIER: The statement was last Octo ber. HON. M.B.

DOLIN: I realize that, but they occasionally meet, not very often, but they do occasionally meet and I would want to report on the most recent developments. As far as the province is concerned our overwhelming concern is for water quality and that is what we would be most concerned about. Again, the responsibility for speaking to that concern would be with the Minister of the Environment, since water quality is a part of the Minister of Environment's concerns. There has to my knowledge, been no agreement for a road on the part of the province to wherever.

So the member can, I guess, draw his own conclusions without indicating that there should be some kind of formal response from the province to a letter from the city to someone else. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time being 4:30, the Chair is interrupting the proceedings of this committee. We shall return at 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - AGRICULTU RE MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department 1262

�, 28 MaJ, 1114 of Agriculture, Item 5 - Farm and Rural Development Division, (

a) Administration. Mr. Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the information of the honourable members, I know that members of the committee would like to have and I would like the staff to distribute information, just an update, with a bit more information that is normally provided by the department dealing with the moisture situation and seeding costs for the last week of May. Mr. Chairman, as well, in terms of the staffing in the Administration area, there is no change to staff years.

In the Water Services Board there is a decrease of one staff year, from 38.28 in'83-84 to 37.28 in'84-85, totalling the regions 192.2 1. lt is a decrease of one from the previous year, for the regions. I gave you the Water Services Board and then there's Crown Lands yet, (h). No change in Crown Lands, 45.36. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, there are some concerns here that I want to bring to the attention of the Minister and I would hope he would respond to dealing with them - I think this is the appropriate place - this is where we cover the ag reps and the services provided to the different regions of specialists and that type of thing, is that correct? The concerns that I have, Mr.

Chairman, what I would say appears to be and I've received a little bit of indication of this happening, that there Is again a swing away from the providing of home economists and home economic services from the Department of Agriculture to the Director of Health or to th at particular department. Now if that's not so I would ask the Minister to clearly state that it isn't because I would not support such a move.

I think that many arguments and debates have taken place over the past few years as to the continued need for a home economic service to the farm community, particularly now with the extremely tough financial situation that people are facing in the farm community, a lot of the farm wives are playing a pretty major role in the operations of the farm business and the home economists, to a large extent, have worked with good money management programs for in-home and I think have played a very meaningful role.

I would hope the control of the home economics division stays, as much as it is now, with the Department of Agriculture. I do not want to see that hived off and moved into the Directorate of Health as has been some of the desires in the past. Another area of concern, Mr. Chairman, and I would ask the Minister to respond to it, and that's the removal of an assistant ag rep in the Town of Deloraine. I think probably the case could be made for putting assistant ag reps in quite a few of the towns that don't have any of the agricultu ral services that are now provided.

We made that move, not just simply placing it in an office in the former Minister's constituency, but I believe that it was important, Mr. Chairman, to place assistant ag reps in communities where there aren't the kinds of agricultural services that are provided in some of the other centres. lt's a good training ground, Mr. Chairman, to give to both the assistant ag rep and I think to provide a service to the communities that they're stationed In.

I believe the productivity factor for all people goes up, particularly when they're government employees, when they're not assembled together in one regional group; that, if you have the staff provided thr oughout the different communities in Manitoba, you can get a little more productivity from those Individuals. I would hope the Minister would reconsider his decision to move that person out of that particular office, as I would hope he would consider expanding assistant ag rep positions in quite a few of the other smaller towns and villages that haven't had them.

I say that because I think I would far sooner have the assistant ag reps spread throughout the regions than I would all assembled in say a group like one main office like Brandon or Portage. If you could get these people out in the communities in some of your other towns that it would be helpful to the community, not only to the community but as well to the people who are training for future work within the agricultural field. So I again request on behalf of the community of Deloraine, to reconsider the placement of a person there and put someonfl In that particular position. I think, as well, Mr.

Chairman, the need for a - (Interjection) - Well I would like to see it - a breakdown of the structure and who's in the different positions, because I know we have farm management specialists who deal with some of the farm management problems. I know recently I had written a letter to the Minister asking his department to take a look at a particular problem and they've done that. I would like some of the names if possible and some of the breakdown, as to the reporting of who's in what position and what their jobs are; it's helpful to understand it.

If we could have a breakdown, because I know the Estimate book is somewhat different than it has been. He's made a few organizational changes and I can relate a little better to some of the personalities and I think it would be extremely helpful. But I want to make the case, Mr.

Chairman, now is not the time to remove the kind of staff that the Minister is doing from the regional offices or from the regions of the agricultu ral community; that's the time when you have strengthen those kinds of positions and make sure that the farm community is well served because, . with the economic conditions as they are today there are a lot more people with a lot more problems and depend upon the resources that the government can provide. So it's not a time for less people in the rural part of the province, it's a time to maintain or increase in critical areas.

He's given the commitment that he's going to provide management consulting services, he's going to provide all tilese kinds of additional situations when difficult ca...es develop, yet he's not providing the kind of · formation that we need to say that that's happening. I'd like a breakdown of the complement of farm management people, soils management people; that type of information would be extremely helpful so we could get a picture of what is happening. We, Mr. Chairman, will debate each of these as we go through them.

There are some areas that I know my colleagues are interested in so we will proceed to take each region on as we come to them. 1263

Monday, 28 MeJ, 1884 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the comments made by the Honourable Member for Arthur in the general sense and in the specific sense of this division. With respect to his initial concerns regard ing support and services provided by the Home Economics Directorate, there is no change in the staffing component in that area. The Directorate is very heavily involved in the area of farm management and family support services.

In fact, their contact sheet, in terms of direct contacts, is over 40,000 last year in the various regions, with the central region being the highest contact and the south-west being the next hig hest, in terms of numb ers of contacts. Central region over 13,000, and the southwest over 9,000, and the other three regions lesser tha n 9,000. So th at the Ho me Economics Directorate is an active participant and is involved as an active part of this depar tment.

There is an ongoing review between the Depar tment of Health and the Department of Agricultur e of how to better utilize the resources of the two groups because there is a Home Economics Directorate in the City of Winnip eg and I believe in Northern Manitoba handled through the Department of Health and the Home Ec Branch of our department doing their work rurally.

So there's an ongoing activity between the two groups to make sure that their activities are co-ordinated as best they can, although at times the focus on the specific target groups and needs in an area might be somewhat different but, in terms of working relat ionship, they do work through the one directorate under the Department of Health and handle our work rurally. They're involved in nutrition, money management, clothing, energy conserva tion, 4-H - I've just given some broad categories.

They have been very actively involved this year in a course called, "Only You Can Manage Your Money, which I had the privilege of kicking off, I believe it was in the community of Carman, last fall to a very good turn out of a seminar dealing with money management. I believe there was somewhere in the neighb ourhood of 200 participants at the conference in Carman, very well attended, and there were smaller groups in many other commun ities throughout the province.

During these difficult times of financial stress the Home Economics Directorate has played and will continue to play an active role in support of farm families in rural Manitoba along with our other support staff. With respect to the assistant ag rep in Deloraine, the honourable member knows that the individual was promoted to a full-time ag rep and stationed in an office in Pilot Mound. We have utilized the position of the assistant ag rep to basically deal with some of the more pressing needs, and that is dealing with financial management and financial problems of the farm commun ity.

We intend to utilize that position in a farm management specialist position to be placed somewhere in a reg ion, I believe, where there is greatest need and greatest shortage. lt may be even a rotating position that may move from area to area. That has not been fi nalized as yet. That position has not at this time been filled, but that is the targeting of the assistant ag rep positions.

We are targeting them into areas which we feel are of greatest impo rtance and greatest need, to get a better understanding in the farm community and assist in the farm management area, money management and as well, operat ing information for farmers. I should mention to the honourable members before we go into the regions, that it may be advisable to mention since there have been a number of changes in the department, a number of promotions of staff into the regional directors. The honourable member knows the regional director for the Southw est Region is John Neabel, who is the director there.

In the Central Region du ring the past year, Brian Manning was promoted to the regional director position. In the Northwest Region, Roger Chychota is the regional director and he was the farm management specialist previously in that area and Brian was the wheat specialist in the Central Region. In the lnterlake, the regional director is Andrew Dickson, who was previously the director of 4-H, and in the Eastern Region is Dave Donaghy, who was the director of wheats in the Central area. Those are the new regional directors around the province. Mr.

Chairman, I'm pleased to have their support and their knowledge and I know that they are certainly a very energetic group of young individuals who I'm sure, will do their utmost to make sure that agriculture is No. 1 in the regions they serve. There's no doubt that the farmers in those regions will be well served by those individua ls. MR. CH